Yigal Amir wishes to wed

[sharonbn]

Prisons Authority says will deny Yigal Amir's marriage request

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/384617.html

Prisons Authority chief Yaakov Ganot said Monday, after meeting with legal advisers, that he would deny any request by Yigal Amir, who assassinated prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, to marry. Amir has not yet filed an official request to wed, but his family confirmed Sunday that he is engaged to an ultra-Orthodox divorcee.

Ganot's decision came as something of a surprise, since senior Prisons Authority officials said Sunday the organization would find it very difficult to defend any decision to deny the marriage request. The officials said that the only argument that the Prisons Authority would be able to use to deny the request would be security considerations.

Sources at the Prisons Authority warned that the approval of Amir's marriage would mark the start of the process of his legitimization. The sources could not remember a case in which a prisoner's request to get married was denied, including requests by dangerous prisoners facing life sentences.

The report on Amir's intention to get married, released Sunday evening by Channel 2 news, generated fierce responses from politicians, and several MKs called for a ban on the planned marriage.

Amir's bride-to-be, Larisa Trimbobler, is an ultra-Orthodox new immigrant from the former Soviet Union, a doctor of philosophy and the mother of four children.

Several days ago, Amir and Trimbobler informed their families they wanted to wed.

The two began exchanging letters and speaking on the phone one year ago, based on Trimbobler's ideological support for the convicted murderer. Trimbobler was married when she first met Amir, and subsequently divorced so she would be able to marry him.

[sharonbn]

My personal opinion is that Amir should be allowed to wed and should be allowed any other human rights available to other prisoners according to the Israeli law.

He is a murderer. He is no different than the conutless other murderers serving their time in jail.

[Oh Jerusalem]

I'm not sure what my opinion is but being allowed or forbidden to wed should be no different for Amir than for anyone else serving a life sentence for murder.

For once I'm actually in agreement with Moshe Negbi. :eek:

So I must be wrong. :p

[Dyeus]

Why should prissoners be allowed to marry? or watch television? or have fun? THEY ARE IN PRISON FOR A ******* REASON

[Mediocrates]

Because even the Mish Patim has prohibitions against cruel and unusal punishment. As long as dangerous elements are isolated from the community is it really such a big deal? You're clearly never going to punish zealots.

Down here in Butner, NC, Jon Pollard is locked away like forgotten trash - for what? To punish a "Bad Man"? With the full force of the state and all of its unlimited power money and time it locks away the criminals for what is essentially theire entire lives. What more should they do?

[Dyeus]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Because even the Mish Patim has prohibitions against cruel and unusal punishment.

Murder is one of them?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Dyeus
Murder is one of them?
Your point is not clear. Could you clarify what you mean?

[Mediocrates]

As you probably know it took at least two unrelated witnesses of flawless character (who also could prove they had nothing to gain) in order to press a capital charge of murder against someone. Like "stoning a disobedient son" it was probably rarely if ever employed. The Torah does not support torture, marking, mutililation and even goes so far as to threaten death upon those who do perform those things as they are they are themselves, abominations.

Capital crimes are for the most part reserved for religious crimes, sins against God, idolatry and the like. As such the execution of that punishment is reserved for God alone.


So by interpolation it's clear that excessive punishments that have no benefit and serve only to degrade and humilate the prisoner are not supported by Torah. Punishment is supposed to be understood, succinct, closed-ended as well.

[alexbmn]

The Rabbis imposed restrictions on the death penalty but the Torah explicitly says that murderers should be put to death. I dont think murderers should be allowed to marry well because i dont think they should be allowed to live.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by alexbmn
The Rabbis imposed restrictions on the death penalty but the Torah explicitly says that murderers should be put to death. I dont think murderers should be allowed to marry well because i dont think they should be allowed to live.

What will you do if you convict a person with murder, execute him, only to find out that he was innocent? kinda hard to reverse the punishment hm?

regarding weddings and other human rights, the issue is obviously controversial. I, for one, believe in rehabilitation and not punishment for the sake of punishing (maybe if Amir will have a son he will come to regard life more highly.) nevertheless, as long as the law states the prisone's rights, Amir is entitled to them.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
What will you do if you convict a person with murder, execute him, only to find out that he was innocent? kinda hard to reverse the punishment hm?[/b]
Yep. Are you referring to a religious court (Jewish Bet Din), which doesn't apply today or the standard court system (as in the current Israeli Bet Mishpat)?
regarding weddings and other human rights, the issue is obviously controversial. I, for one, believe in rehabilitation and not punishment for the sake of punishing (maybe if Amir will have a son he will come to regard life more highly.) nevertheless, as long as the law states the prisone's rights, Amir is entitled to them.
I also agree in rehabilitation but there are limits to the liberties murderers in prison should be allowed. I have no particular opinion either way as to whether such inmates should be allowed to marry or not.

I've seen no convincing arguments for or against.

[Dyeus]

Originally posted by sharonbn
What will you do if you convict a person with murder, execute him, only to find out that he was innocent? kinda hard to reverse the punishment hm?



Didnt Amir admit he did it?


Originally posted by oh Jerusalem
Your point is not clear. Could you clarify what you mean?

I ment that murder is crual and unacceptable 2. I dont know if I think the death penalty is a good thing but locking someone up in a 4 x 4 cell wouldnt hurt anyone. I feel no pitty for him

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Dyeus
Didnt Amir admit he did it?
Srak! Srak!

I'm sure someone else can explain. ;)

BTW, as an asside, according to Jewish Law, a person may not be punished based on self incrimination: Ein Adam Meisim Atzmo Rashah.

[eyl]

Originally posted by Dyeus
Didnt Amir admit he did it?

Doesn't matter, unless you want to limit prisoners' rights not only by what they were convicted of but on how they were convicted as well.

[Dyeus]

Originally posted by eyl
Doesn't matter, unless you want to limit prisoners' rights not only by what they were convicted of but on how they were convicted as well.

okay besides the point that he said it.... there were more then 2 WHITNESSES :D and I believe he had a fair trial did he not? and if we wanted to trial people according to Jewish law shouldnt there be 3 rabbi's to hear him? and it is ashaming that one finds a sentece of convinement in a 4 x 4 cell with nothing else then a toilet and a bed against human right but to take a life without trial is humane? why should he be treated like he is in a Hotel?

[eyl]

Originally posted by Dyeus
okay besides the point that he said it.... there were more then 2 WHITNESSES :D and I believe he had a fair trial did he not? and if we wanted to trial people according to Jewish law shouldnt there be 3 rabbi's to hear him? and it is ashaming that one finds a sentece of convinement in a 4 x 4 cell with nothing else then a toilet and a bed against human right but to take a life without trial is humane? why should he be treated like he is in a Hotel?

Again - you're talking about how he was convicted. The law doesn't take that in account when determining prisoners' rights.

Where is it considered humane to take a prisoner's life without trial?

[Dyeus]

Originally posted by eyl
Again - you're talking about how he was convicted. The law doesn't take that in account when determining prisoners' rights.

Where is it considered humane to take a prisoner's life without trial?

I am sorry, I think I misunderstood something...

[alexbmn]

yeah thats a famous argument against the death penalty.Well about the Nazis, Timothy Mcweigh, Arafat, Amir or the Washington snipers? You doubt that they were guity? Placing restictions on it ,fine . abolishing it ,NO WAY.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Srak! Srak!

I'm sure someone else can explain. ;)

BTW, as an asside, according to Jewish Law, a person may not be punished based on self incrimination: Ein Adam Meisim Atzmo Rashah.

Does this also apply to children who admit to having done something they weren't supposed to? (This is a serious query. I'm just thinking of the parenting ramifications if so!)

[Mediocrates]

I think we would evaluate that as a learning experience for both the parent and the child. If I don't know what you're doing, if it's serious enough it's as much my problem as yours.


"....upon the lintels of your doorframes" is as much a commandment to morally instruct and be responsible for your children as it is in the microdetails of what to do. The parent prayer at a B'Nai Mitzvah, "Thank God you are not my problem any more" (ok not exactly but you get the point) is the point at which the 'child' is supposed to have the moral capacity to be fully participating in the community. Then the little darlings transgressoins are not the fault or responsibility of the parent. Until then, yeah it is.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by cerulean
Does this also apply to children who admit to having done something they weren't supposed to? (This is a serious query. I'm just thinking of the parenting ramifications if so!)
I'm referring to legal judgement in a Jewish court of law.

Now if you're thinking of bringing your kids in front of a 3 judge Bet Din when they break your neighbors window with a ball, I think it's time to call a family social worker. :p