In his own words: a New York Muslim about holy war

[hasib]

Hi All,
I'm not trying to preach but just thought I share this email with you folks. This email have been hopping around from mailbox to mailbox after the September 11 situation. I thought it was timely and agreed with him (then again, I am little biased for some reason;) ).

Since this is the Peace Think Tank, I figured, somebody who may not be aware of such information may learn some insight from it. At first I thought most of you know all the information this fella (I also got this email with "From:" removed :() talking about. However, I know for sure that many people aren’t as informed. Anyway, here's the message.

When Ezra mentioned about different interpretation of Islam by Muslim from different part of the world, I wanted to post this email, but finally found it today.

Here’s the message.





-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 5:11 PM


I am a muslim and I live in the US. I was born and raised in Canada with Indian background. I feel I need to help clear up what is true and what is not true with regards to Islam.
>
> Islam is a religion and a person practicing Islam is a muslim. There are
> five basics pillars of islam that any muslim should follow. All the
> guidance of what muslims should do is in the holy book called the Qu'ran
> or "Koran".
> Unfortunately, it seems that Bin Laden and others have taken religion as
> a vehicle to project their political hatred and motives. What he is
> doing, has nothing to do with Islam at all. Islam teaches people to be
> loving, peace giving, god fearing people. It teaches us to live with
> diversity, other religions, and humility.
>
> All the things that bin laden has said in the interviews and has done in
> the past are not words from the qu'ran but his words. And unfortunately
> the media and lack of real knowledge has blurred what is true and what is
> not.
> The statement by binladen that non-muslims cannot live in a muslim
> country is false - 100% false. India was ruled by muslims for 900 years,
> christians, muslims and hindus lived happily together. Same in
> palestine, before the partition, arab jews and arab muslims lived
> together for hundreds of years in peace. The main reasons for hatred and
>
> fighting the past 50 years was due more to political landscape than
> religion. Unfortunately, religion is a powerful tool that gets people
> motivated and people in power have used it as the lauch pad for
> fighting.
>
> Another item that binladen keeps talking about is Jihad or holy war.
> There is discussion of Jihad in the Qu'ran and when and why it is
> appropriate. It is never an offensive tactic. Jihad is only permitted
> when a muslim is being opppressed to practice their religion. Only real
> examples where Jihad may have been appropriate in recent years would be
> the Bosnian war where Bosnian muslims were being executed strictly based
>
> on their religion. But by no means, can a muslim country attack another
> country (muslim or not) as an act of Jihad. That is incorrect.
> the basics of islam are similar to christianity.
> Believe in one god. In arabic the word god is Allah. The god is the same
> between all three religions. jews, muslims and christians pray to the
> same god. That is very important to understand.
>
> But a true muslim is humble, not greedy, not arrogant and never shows
> jealousy. Tolerance, helping neighbours of any race, creed, or religion
> is the first thing. One of the five pillars of islam is to give to the
> poor. It's required, not a choice. As any religion or race, there are a
> small group of radicals that take any religion and bend it for their
> convenience. This seems to be the case with bin laden, saddam hussein, and
> others who have killed humans for their gain.
> None of these people will go to heaven as they believe they will. Jihad
> is not valid here nor does is it say to kill innocent children, parents,
> and siblings. Jihad only allows fighting among soliders, not civilians.
> Unfortunately these people are misled and doing very evil things that
> they will be punished for it.
>
> I'll stop rambling here..I hope this helps you guys get a better
> understand of what is going on. Just remember, Arab is a race..there are
> Arab Christians, Arab Jews and Arab muslims. At the moment radical arab
> muslims are causing trouble and doing things that are absolutely not
> tolerated in Islam at all. I hope these groups are stopped and removed.
> I was in NYC yesterday and I was there when it happened. I saw the second
> plane slam into the WTC 2. It was an experience I wish I had not
> witnessed. But we need to grow strong and not stereotype.
> best regards,
> a muslim in america.

[muslim4israel2]

Thank you.

A marvellous post, highlighting the tenets of Islam which are true, and the reason why Islam gains so many converts.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Thank you.

A marvellous post, highlighting the tenets of Islam which are true, and the reason why Islam gains so many converts.

A common misperception among many people is that Jews hate Muslims. I have never heard anything in any mainstream Jewish publication expressing such sentiment.

I am sure that there are Jews who hate Muslims, just as I am sure that there are Muslims who hate Jews, and Hindus who hate Buddhists and Christians who hate everyone etc.

From my perspective any extremist is likely to cause "trouble" for his/her group. The big problem that I see for Muslims is that there are a number of groups who are using violent means to try and pursue their agendas. And they are not limited to the ME. There is trouble in the Phillipines, Indonesia and other areas of the world.

Unfortunately many people are not very worldly and tend to make arbitrary decisions based upon less than rational thoughts processes.

[victot]

heh, im waiting for ezra to see this thread and start ranting and raving andquoting the koran to prove how immoral and horrible it is...

[ibrodsky]

Neither are religions perfect, and Islam is surely no exception.

If Islam is such a wonderful religion, why do so many terrorists claim to be Muslims, and further claim they are simply doing what their religion requires?

Why are Islamic states so repressive? Why does such a large fraction of Muslims believe that the WTC attacks were morally justified?

Why do most leaders in the Islamic world say terrorist attacks are wrong, and then hasten to excuse them as an understandable reaction to US support for Israel?

While true Islam may not permit terrorism, it is apparently not so clear about this. Otherwise, why would so many Muslims believe that terrorists are "martyrs" destined for "paradise"?

Instead of rushing to absolve Islam of any role, decent Muslims should be asking themselves why others who consider themselves Muslims can believe it is OK to commit such horrific crimes.

The fact that there is not a popular movement within Islam to loudly condemn terrorism, and teach Muslims the world over that terrorism is a terrible sin, is (unfortunately) evidence of a lack of moral clarity and firmness.

Instead, much of the Islamic world spends its time trying to excuse terrorism by claiming that Israel's use of self defense is "the worst form of terrorism" and that the "humiliation" of checkpoints somehow justifies terrorist attacks against toddlers, teenage girls, and the elderly.

When I hear Muslims say that massacres of Israeli toddlers, teenagers, and elderly cannot be justified or excused in any way, and that such acts discredit the Palestinian cause, and that true Muslims are required to fight those who commit such acts, then I will be impressed.

But I have been waiting for the good Muslims to come forward for a very long time...

[L@mplighterM]

I?ll believe the email when a group of Rabbis visit Mecca. Hell I?ll even settle for the pope.

Do you really believe that people will believe the lies in that email?

Sorry there?s too much evidence to the contrary.

Don?t accuse me off bias because I?m a hardcore atheist and I bow to no god.

I?m not going to waste my time rebutting the email because it?s obvious that it?s a lie and isn?t supported by factual quotes from the Koran.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Thank you.

A marvellous post, highlighting the tenets of Islam which are true, and the reason why Islam gains so many converts.


Because of your terrorist actions you seem to be loosing more people than gaining converts these days. When the US and/or NATO gives you yours in the near future you?ll loose a lot more. After Iraq I hope they?ll tackle Iran and keep it up until your societies decides to convert to a peaceful religion like Judaism.

[Ezra]

All the things that bin laden has said in the interviews and has done in the past are not words from the qu'ran but his words.


With all respect, the writer of this mail is a BIG LIAR .

Every word that Bin Laden said as a verse, is actually there in the Quraan.

Shall we get the script and compare?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by victot
heh, im waiting for ezra to see this thread and start ranting and raving andquoting the koran to prove how immoral and horrible it is...


At least you admitted that I quote from Koran not make it up...

[muslim4israel2]

Islam is still growing strong. We get more converts a decade then the entire Jewish pop.

Ever heard of "Jews are Allah"-yup, they converted to Islam. Check them out. :)

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Islam is still growing strong. We get more converts a decade then the entire Jewish pop.


A religion that teaches it is OK to beat your wife is quite alluring to some.

[hasib]

oops, looks like I'm behind in the thread again. :rolleyes:

In my humble opinion, we are encountering more "Muslim" terrorist these days simply because of the Middle East crisis (absolutely not because Islam instructs one to be a terrorist). Israel has one of the strongest Military Power with powerful weapons, not to mention friends in the higher places ;) So, obviously to fight against those forces, various Arab extremists group were adopting guerilla style warfare’s. However, Israeli arm force has trained their men/women well, and the Guerilla style warfare doesn’t work anymore against them.

So to get by that issue, these extremist groups have now adopted these new strategies that intend to hurt social security of the general population, as well as getting International attention. That obviously was a tremendous wrong judgment from one of their leader’s part who influenced these suicide bombing activities to begin with. They have taken things too far. Hurting innocent people shows only sign of desperation, regardless whatever the reason behind it. One can come up with many explanations why those suicides bombing to civilian are occurring. There’s no way one can justify that!

Consequently, what Israeli military is doing to resolve this problem absolutely atrocious! It’s almost like burning down my house to resolve a termite problem! They are not letting humanitarian, journalist go in those areas to help the innocent. What shocked me when it was reported that military personnel’s were cleaning out some areas to cover up what they’ve done! Absolutely unspeakable! Why would you repeat something similar to what happened during Nazi Era! Frankly I think all the military personal need to see the Schindler's List :D We don’t want that history to repeat regardless of your religion.

But I also heard just a few minutes ago that Israeli Supreme Court refused army’s request of mess burials of Palestinians. That give me a little peace thinking, not everybody has lost their mind.

Best Regards,

Hasib

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by hasib
It's almost like burning down my house to resolve a termite problem!

When dealing with termites, the owner of the house is your customer. When dealing with terrorists, the ones that occupy houses are the sole cause for their destruction. But you'll just go on twisting the facts and making irrelevant comparisons anyway, won't you.

They are not letting humanitarian, journalist go in those areas to help the innocent.

First of all, they are.

Second of all, I find it most interesting that it's the job of journalists to help and not to objectively report. Boy, you said a mouthful!

Third, among the innocent are still the not-so-innocent, though shooting has mostly died down to post shots in Jenin.

What shocked me when it was reported that military personnels were cleaning out some areas to cover up what theyve done!

The bodies are still there, though they started cleaning up today, in coordination with the ICRC. Nothing to cover up. Dig all you want! And count 'em, please.

Absolutely unspeakable! Why would you repeat something similar to what happened during Nazi Era!

We wouldn't. Moslems, however, would:

Palestinian indoctrination to suicide murders is alive and well. Leading Palestinian Authority religious leader Muhammad Ibrahim Maadi delivered a sermon this past Friday - featured on official PA television - asking Moslems to introspect on why they have not yet merited "martyrdom" in their war against Israel. "Whoever has not merited Martyrdom in these times," Maadi says, "should rise in the night and ask, 'My Lord, why have you denied me Martyrdom?'" Palestinian Media Watch (www.pmw.org.il), which
translated the speech into English, notes that Maadi is attempting to add an aspect of religious guilt to those who have not yet been killed or killed themselves while murdering Jews. Maadi went on to incite his listeners by challenging them to conquer all of present-day Israel: "Our belief is resolute that one day we shall enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, and Ramle, and Lod, and… Beit Jarjar [Masuot
Yitzchak], and all of Palestine, as conquerors!"

Maadi also noted the Muslim desire to conquer the world:
"The Tradition relates to us that Allah's cherished one [Muhammad] said. 'The Jews will battle against you but you shall emerge masters over them.' … And who makes the Muslim master of the Jew? Allah… Until such time as a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree, and the rock or tree will say: Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, here is a Jew behind me, Oh Muslim, come and kill! We put our credence in this Tradition as well as in the Tradition that proclaims the expansion of Islamic rule over the world."

Maadi delivered a similar sermon, broadcast live on PA television last June, praising the suicide bombing attack at the Dolphinarium in Tel-Aviv that left 21 Israeli teenagers dead. He said then, "Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who goes on a raid in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews in their sinful discotheque. I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset building [Israel's Parliament] collapsing on the heads of the Jews."

Aw, the poor innocent Palestinians.

Frankly I think all the military personal need to see the Schindler's List :D We don’t want that history to repeat regardless of your religion.

Frankly, you're full of crap.

But I also heard just a few minutes ago that Israeli Supreme Court refused army’s request of mess burials of Palestinians. That give me a little peace thinking, not everybody has lost their mind.

More disinformation from Hasib. Read carefully:

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/15/News/News.46964.html

The article's first words are: "A compromise was reached".

Whose compromise? Quote: "The agreement came in response to three petitions against the IDF evacuating the bodies and burying them at a cemetery in the Jordan Valley. The court rejected the petitions in light of the compromise."

The compromise came from the IDF itself, not from the Arab petitioners.

Furthermore, it's not a mass burial, which in fact the Palestinians are doing in Ramallah. Each grave is separate. Each body is in a separate coffin. The coffins are marked to match them with any items of identification found on the corpse.

And Hasib makes no mention of the PA's desire to let the bodies lie there all this time for some great photo ops, which the IDF is now supplying, as they have been escorting journalists through Jenin since yesterday.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Islam is still growing strong. We get more converts a decade then the entire Jewish pop.

Though the wicked flower like grass,
And all the evil doers sprout up,
It is so that they will be destroyed forever.

Psalms, Song of The Sabbath, 92, 8

We Jews have seen all the empires come and go. The Babylonians, Asyrians, Greeks, Persians, Romans. You're just next in line. I would repent, if I were you. You're on the loosing team.

[muslim4israel2]

We are divine winners. No one can change that.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
We are divine winners. No one can change that.

No one is competing there- we are secure in our position.

[watcher]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
We are divine winners. No one can change that.

Why be such losers??
If you are all winners then why since the attacks in 1948 were all your battles lost other than it was an unholy war against Israel!
ISRAEL WILL STAND FOREVER! Those against Israel will be crushed!!

[watcher]

Originally posted by Shuki


No one is competing there- we are secure in our position.

Yes no competition just survival...
Israel can remain secure in the fact Israel will outlast all the hateful wicked.

[ardahan]

Originally posted by ibrodsky

When I hear Muslims say that massacres of Israeli toddlers, teenagers, and elderly cannot be justified or excused in any way, and that such acts discredit the Palestinian cause, and that true Muslims are required to fight those who commit such acts, then I will be impressed.

But I have been waiting for the good Muslims to come forward for a very long time...


I am a Muslim and I believe that:
massacres of Israeli toddlers, teenagers, and elderly cannot be justified or excused in any way!
It does not only disredit Palestinians, worse it discredits Islam, violates it and the basic human values which are fixed in it:
"You shall not kill" as a commadnment which is common to all Abrahamic faiths.
Muslims are required to fight suicide attacks, I fully agree on this.
No mentality which takes basic human rights away from an other group, such as that of living, every mentality which is inhuman enough to touch innocent women and children is unacceptable either in Islam as in any other religion.
Believe me there are Muslims who feel your pain everytime a bomb blows up in israel and kills innocent people.

regards

[Mediocrates]

I'd rather be right that self righteous.

[ardahan]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I'd rather be right that self righteous.

could you elaborate...?
I did not get the meaning.... :rolleyes:

[Gatorade]

Tonight (May 9) PBS is having a special two hour program on Islam.