My Petition to the White House

[Artotyrite]

This is the text of a petition that I intend to circulate starting Monday, and send to the White House.

"Dear President Bush:

"The undersigned believe that the parties to the Middle-East conflict
are either unable or unwilling to achieve peace by themselves.
"The undersigned believe that peace in the Middle-East is not only
desirable but politically necessary.
"The undersigned therefore request that, with the support of the United Nations,
the United States intervene militarily in the Middle-East and use
whatever means necessary to put an end to the violence now."

I am under no illusions, but the voices of the people who are fed up with this conflict must, and shall, be heard.

We did not act in Rwanda. We acted too late in Bosnoa. It is already to late in the Middle-East. We must act NOW.

Enough is enough.

[mrbaggins]

Anyone with two eyes can see that a standing miltary force, not involved in active supression, as the IDF is here... cannot and will not stop Palestinians suicide/homicide bombings in Israel.

All they can do is stop the IDF from actively surpressing such activity.

If you're suggesting an International force should come in to kill some terrorists (hiding amongst the civilians) then I'd agree with you.

International forces only work in separating large regular (not irregular as in the case of the cowardly Palestinians) forces.

[ibrodsky]

That is why supporters of Palestinian terrorists are so anxious to get an international "peacekeeping" force. They know that Israel will not launch attacks against such a force, and that Palestinian terrorists will have no trouble slipping past them. Heck, a UN force is almost certain to include Arabs who will gladly let the terrorists through.

While there may be a few naive pacificists who support this idea, I think most of those pushing it are just PA terrorist supporters seeking a respectable-looking way of aiding the Arabs in their racist war to annihilate Israel.

Notice that people like Artotyrite don't demand that the Arab world put a halt to terrorism against civilians. Oh no, they want to put a military force between the two peoples precisely because they know that can't stop terror attacks but it can stop retaliation.

[mrbaggins]

absolutely....


Luckily, I can't ever see this happening without both sides agreeing, which Israel never will.

If they ever did, they'd demand it was just US personel, and there'd be trouble the first time there were a few terrorist attacks.

When you see terror attacks first hand... as I have in the UK, and have in New York, you understand.

---

Peace at any cost? Its just giving the Arab terrorists in this region another inch... and they want the whole damn place.

[victot]

im not so sure why pro-israel sources are so against the idea of interenational intervention...

let thousands and thousands of members from the international community spend a few weeks in jerusalem...
make them go out and see the town.

at least a few are bound to be killed... maybe it'll get more world opinion on israel's side...
they aren't gonna make israel do nothing for too long, if a wave of bombings hit israel.

i dunno, at least at this point, i don't think that's a bad idea. SOMETHING needs to be done...

[mrbaggins]

Its because the international community, the Arabs in particular are unwilling to see the underdogs as guilty.

They just make excuse after excuse... 'the big bad israelis are persecuting these poor palestinians and make them blow up school kids, its not their fault'

[ibrodsky]

You can expect such a force to mirror the reactions we see in the int'l community. Terrorist attacks are bad, but quickly forgotten. Retaliation -- hunting down and bringing terrorists to justice -- take time and small minds feel that because Israel has tanks and Palestinians just have strap-on-explosives that it's an "unfair fight."

Are you really willing to count on the rest of the world to save the Jews? They will all say how sorry they are after it's too late, just like they did in Europe.

What more proof is needed that militant Islam is out to massacre Jews? If that is clear, what is needed is not a peacekeeping force between the two peoples, but a real police action to hunt down and capture Palestinian terrorists.

[muslim4israel2]

I actually think that the easiet means to a peace would be for the Arab world to declare that Palestine is an established state they all recognise. That would sway ALL Muslim majority nations, so 54, plus those nations close to Muslim states like PRC. I cant see S.Americans complaining, and lots of Europe is calling for that too-so the UN would have to pass it.

Thus every Israeli incursion would be a act of war against a soverign state, and dialog would get its justifiable place.

[mrbaggins]

You really have become divorced from reality.

The Arabs would have to recognize Israel as a state.

The Palestinians would have to revoke their article desirous of the destruction of Israel.


What you are confused about is that Arabs actually want Israel to continue to exist in any form. They don't.

Only 50 years ago, Arab states acted in unison in an attempt to destroy Israel, just as it was formed.

The ONLY reason why Arabs haven't conquered Israel, is because their armies are incapable.

The Palestinians have resorted to terrorist attacks, and the only way they'll stop is if they are forced into it physically.

[muslim4israel2]

I FULLY SUPPORT the recognition of Israel. Pakistan is on the verge of it, and well I dont see why any nation should deny that reality.

[victot]

well, i think israel should take a chance with having an international community there...
establish a few ground rules with them, but i think they should be there.
let the us play the biggest role as the peacekeepers...
i don't think they'll be too unreasonable. if they see what's going on, how israelis can't go too many places in fear of being killed...

they're not gonna allow suicide bomber after suicide bomber after suicide bomber kill person after person after person...

they'll let israel do as they will, and it might give israel better world opinion.

[mrbaggins]

Just because you don't see any reason to not, doesn't stop the PA supporting Israels destruction and Lebannons and Syrias active complicitness in direct action against Israel. (giving just two examples)

Hisbollah were shelling Israel, just when the suicide bomb was going off. Sec. Powell was on route to see the situation at the time.

Pakistan is only taking this step because they (primarily Gen. Musharaf) want to get back into the favor of the Intl. Community, particularly the US. They want US aid, and legitimacy.

[Barkokhba]

Originally posted by Artotyrite
This is the text of a petition that I intend to circulate starting Monday, and send to the White House.

"Dear President Bush:

"The undersigned believe that the parties to the Middle-East conflict
are either unable or unwilling to achieve peace by themselves.
"The undersigned believe that peace in the Middle-East is not only
desirable but politically necessary.
"The undersigned therefore request that, with the support of the United Nations,
the United States intervene militarily in the Middle-East and use
whatever means necessary to put an end to the violence now."

I am under no illusions, but the voices of the people who are fed up with this conflict must, and shall, be heard.

We did not act in Rwanda. We acted too late in Bosnoa. It is already to late in the Middle-East. We must act NOW.

Enough is enough.

The US is not the world's policeman. It is this self-righteous nonsense that is spewed around the world that makes people hate the US. Get over yourself. You apparently do not understand anything about the situation and are doing nothing to help, other than to try and use force to accomplish what will never happen through force, peace.

Good job Gandhi.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Artotyrite
This is the text of a petition that I intend to circulate starting Monday, and send to the White House.

"Dear President Bush:

"The undersigned believe that the parties to the Middle-East conflict
are either unable or unwilling to achieve peace by themselves.
"The undersigned believe that peace in the Middle-East is not only
desirable but politically necessary.
"The undersigned therefore request that, with the support of the United Nations,
the United States intervene militarily in the Middle-East and use
whatever means necessary to put an end to the violence now."

I am under no illusions, but the voices of the people who are fed up with this conflict must, and shall, be heard.

We did not act in Rwanda. We acted too late in Bosnoa. It is already to late in the Middle-East. We must act NOW.

Enough is enough.

You seem to be of the opinion that it takes two to tango.

Why is it desirable and politically necessary to have peace in the Middle-east?

What do you want the US to do ask the Israelis to withdraw and then cluster bomb the Palestinians? I don?t think that the US would be too popular in the world community if it did that.

I want the conflict to end but killing a couple of million Muslims wouldn?t bode well in the world community.

If it's to late in the Middle-east why bother?

[muslim4israel2]

How about a "free for all" in the ME-winning nation takes all? :D

[mrbaggins]

Great Idea.

Israel has an airforce and nukes.

Israel 12- Everyone else 0

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2


I actually think that the easiet means to a peace would be for the Arab world to declare that Palestine is an established state they all recognise...


That's already been done. At all Arab and Islamic official gatherings, the Palestinians are treated as a sovereign state, with their own flag, their own ambassadors, and equal vote, etc.

Luckily, it is not the Arab world that determines the soveriegnty of a state to the rest of the world. It will take more Arab oil bribes and blackmail to sway the rest of the world to take a UN vote for Palestine as a state.

But that will also solve nothing, because the Palestinians would need for Israel to recognize their state and provide them with jobs. Otherwise, their only source of income is Saddam Hussein's $25,000 per suicide bomber, and some Saudi charity, which will be immediately stashed away in the corrupt PA leadership's Swiss bank accounts. That's why the Palestinian cannot survive without Israel's approval and jobs from Israel's economy.

[muslim4israel2]

You nice guys. :rolleyes: If you gave them there state back, they could get there own jobs. FDI would flow in, jobs created, income boosted.........

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
How about a "free for all" in the ME-winning nation takes all? :D

Are you going down there and help?

[muslim4israel2]

Yeah :rolleyes:

Hopeless you are!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
You nice guys. :rolleyes: If you gave them there state back, they could get there own jobs. FDI would flow in, jobs created, income boosted.........
It would be great if the Palestinians could, in fact, support themselves without needing to cross into work in Israel.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians insist in every negotiation that there be a quota of Palestinians allowed into Israel for jobs.

I think everyone would be much better off if Palestinians would not be employed in Israel for many reasons.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Yeah :rolleyes:

Hopeless you are!

So what percentage of your salery goes to support the fight against what you consider Israels unwelcomed stay in the ME?

[muslim4israel2]

How about ending your occupation and giving them a chance?

[muslim4israel2]

I earn enough to pay the rent, buy the shopping, maintain the place, and keep my shoes untorn.

I contribute 0% of anything I have to anyone.

I'm not against anyone. That "your hopeless" comment was a joke. :rolleyes:

[L@mplighterM]

Well you seem to have a bit left over to post anti-Semetic remarks here. Why dont you cancel your connection and send the money to the site found at the link below.


http://info.jpost.com/C002/Info/Organizations/Fly-a-Cake/

[muslim4israel2]

SHOW ME 1 ANTI -SEMETIC REMARK THAT WAS NOT AN OBVIOUS MISINTERPRETATION ON YOUR PART?

[General X]

Originally posted by Artotyrite
This is the text of a petition that I intend to circulate starting Monday, and send to the White House.

"Dear President Bush:

"The undersigned believe that the parties to the Middle-East conflict
are either unable or unwilling to achieve peace by themselves.
"The undersigned believe that peace in the Middle-East is not only
desirable but politically necessary.
"The undersigned therefore request that, with the support of the United Nations,
the United States intervene militarily in the Middle-East and use
whatever means necessary to put an end to the violence now."

I am under no illusions, but the voices of the people who are fed up with this conflict must, and shall, be heard.

We did not act in Rwanda. We acted too late in Bosnoa. It is already to late in the Middle-East. We must act NOW.

Enough is enough.
Soory but I'll never find myself signing that. (That is, if I'm not drunk)

[L@mplighterM]

SHOW ME 1 ANTI -SEMETIC REMARK THAT WAS NOT AN OBVIOUS MISINTERPRETATION ON YOUR PART?

Read your own posts.

[whereamigod]

muslim4israel2, didn't you know? Say anything against Israel or its policies and your anti-semitic. Thats the way this forum works.

[Mediocrates]

7 months later and a comment? :o

[MGB8]

Hey, that's a great idea! That way every terrorist action is an act of war and Israel can go in and wipe out the Arafat and his cronies with no international peep! Yay!

Seriously, Israel should not yield ONE INCH of the west bank of the Jordan River - it is to UNSAFE.

The area is TOO CLOSE to Haifa, the Galallie (sp), Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, etc - to easy not only to split the country in half but also to attack our population centers.

Why do people forget that we were, at one point, CLOSE TO LOSING THE YOM KIPPUR WAR!

Israel needs to come out for a "Palestinian" State, but ask that the Arab nations give mostly uninhabited land which will serve, along with Gaza, as the place for these people to have their own sovereignty.

I have repeatedly suggested part of the Sinai.

The refugees from 48 would have the ability to move to their own state, the state would be well funded and internationally monitored (so now Arafatistan thuggery so that the people can actually prosper - no more warlords), and Arabs who do not want to live in a Jewish State in the West Bank and the rest of israel will also have a "right of return" to this new state.

Every new Palestinian would get a plot of land, etc.

The "Palestinian" Arabs need to realize that you can't always get what you want, in this case BOTH (1) non-Jewish Sovereignty and (2) a certain area of land. If they want a state of their own, they should get one, but not at the expense of Israeli military security.

As for Al-Aqsa - Jordan and the Clerics already have local authority over the area, so nothing need change. In the West Bank local sovereignty for Arab villages can be arranged for those that do not want to "return" to this new Palestine..but acts of terrorism will result in immediate deportation.



Originally posted by muslim4israel2
I actually think that the easiet means to a peace would be for the Arab world to declare that Palestine is an established state they all recognise. That would sway ALL Muslim majority nations, so 54, plus those nations close to Muslim states like PRC. I cant see S.Americans complaining, and lots of Europe is calling for that too-so the UN would have to pass it.

Thus every Israeli incursion would be a act of war against a soverign state, and dialog would get its justifiable place.

[MGB8]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
You nice guys. :rolleyes: If you gave them there state back, they could get there own jobs. FDI would flow in, jobs created, income boosted.........

OKAY, once again:

(1) THERE NEVER WAS A STATE OF PALESTINE - JORDAN CONQUERED THE AREA!

(2) IT WAS NOT "ARAB LAND" TO BEGIN WITH - IT WAS BRITISH (THEN OTTOMAN, THEN....all the way back to ISRAEL!)

(3) THE WEST BANK IS VITAL TO ISRAELI MILITARY SECURITY...as MANY ARABS want ISRAEL (the Zionist Experiment) DESTROYED!

(4) Israel should launch a satalite carrying nuclear missles in geo-synchronous orbit with and aimed at MECCA AND MEDINA. Then, Israel should say to the Muslim World - back off, give the Palestinian Arabs land for their own state from YOUR LAND (you have MUCH MUCH MORE THAN WE DO), and if Israel ever falls, say goodbye to your holy places for the next 10,000 years!

[whereamigod]

That is genius, but if and when that happens just be prepared to see 5, 10, may 15 innocent israeli's killed every day. Of course you're gonna say, "but that happens already". Just imagine, every muslim in the world turning on you. Won't matter how many nukes you have or how well trained your army is, the only thing you'll be worried about is whether you'll die by bomb or gun.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by whereamigod
That is genius, but if and when that happens just be prepared to see 5, 10, may 15 innocent israeli's killed every day. Of course you're gonna say, "but that happens already". Just imagine, every muslim in the world turning on you. Won't matter how many nukes you have or how well trained your army is, the only thing you'll be worried about is whether you'll die by bomb or gun.

If that's a threat I'd just as soon throw you off the board.

[whereamigod]

Wow, now threatening me with banning me from this site. You hide behind a tough guy fascade but we all see the mumbling pathetic man you are. You have nothing important to say, you only attack other posters. Good job, guy. You truly matter.

[Mediocrates]

Do you want to say something to me? Send me an email, punk.

[whereamigod]

Do you really think I am that stupid? So that you'll have my e-mail address and than spam the out me with your pathetic duddly doo right friends. Gets a life. Get a girl. Do drugs, whatever it takes. You're falling apart. Look how easy it was for me to get you all shaken. Go and cry yourself to sleep chanting "Israel is the best, Israel is the best"

[Mediocrates]

Ok I'm awake again - now did you want to say something to me? Oh guess not. PM me then, would that assuage your paranoia?

[whereamigod]

No, either answer the question or stop replying. Its that simple. I don't have time to play these childish games. I'm sure they work with others but not me. Paranoia? Maybe. But I learned that lesson the hard way a while ago and to be honest don't feel like deleting hundreds of e-mails flaunting gay porn.

[TheyAre]

That is genius, but if and when that happens just be prepared to see 5, 10, may 15 innocent israeli's killed every day. Of course you're gonna say, "but that happens already". Just imagine, every muslim in the world turning on you. Won't matter how many nukes you have or how well trained your army is, the only thing you'll be worried about is whether you'll die by bomb or gun.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Mediocrates seriously leave this guy along he's so ing FUNNY.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

You see I find it funny that while there are 1.4 Billion Muslims in the world, Israel can easily wipe out the ones that are threatening to them (in the Middle East, dumb*ss). As anti-Israel as Europe is, as indifferent as South America is, do you think they'd let Muslims go off to jihad to destroy Israel. The only thing the Arabs would have to be worried about is whether they'd die before or after their eyeballs melt.

You also seem to ignore the U.S. and the UN (a.k.a. the U.S.). As a recognized member of the United Nations, Israel has the full protection of that United Nations against aggression. Since genocidal war and war for the express purpose of taking territory (which a war against Israel would be) is "forbidden" by the UN, how long would it take for all the major cities in Indonesia, Egypt, and the Middle East to turn into mushroom clouds? How long before a couple hundred thousand United States troops pour into Israel and basically whip the out of you Arabs. Hell, you can't beat Israel on your own. Now you're going to take out Israel and the United States of America?

The will of Allah doesn't stand up too well to F-16s and Hydrogen Bombs. Try again, newbie.

OWNED.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

[whereamigod]

Really, the UN is standing behind Israel? Yeah, standing behind cause they don't want to be in front when then end comes? Newbie? What are we surfers or something. Israel has nukes? And? So does Russia, China, N. Korea. Nations have been threatening to use them for decades. And nothing. ONe one nation has used them. Israel will do nothing. And discussing how easy it is for Israel to take out its enemies, that is true, seeing how they have no regard for human life or civilians. Also, the U.S. will pour troops into Israel to protect that nation? My friend, you have lost your mind. We're there to give you weapons and money. We didn't fight with the Afghani's did we? No we gave them weapons to use against the Russians? If you truly believe that fairy tale, then ask yourself who the newbie is. Also saying "LOL LOL" is kinda sad. Now go back to listening to your vanilla ice cd and let the big boys talk. Good night.

[whereamigod]

Also, remember a war called Vietnam? How did we do then when we fought guerilla warfare? Israeli's are not winning this war, Americans can't win this war. What will end this war.......one word............Peace. Give peace a chance. Stupidity, like the IDF, cold blooded killers.

[Mediocrates]

I don't know what you know about VN but it was a political failure not a tactical failure. It was lost, whatever the merits of being there or not, for political reasons that were decided thousands of miles away from the field.

The post immediately before that? I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

[danholo]

Stupidity, like the IDF, cold blooded killers.

Despite the extremely bad grammar in this sentence, why do you say this? How much proof do you have of the IDF soldiers being cold blooded killers?!

I don't believe we want to go throw this whole rumba again and start nitpicking on every death there is. There is a good site: www.ict.org.il where every death is reported and analyzed, the person who made these studies even came on this site to talk about it. We are not denying that bad things don't happen but in war zones you can't really start hesitating, unless you want to be killed yourself. There have been a lot of gun battles and children have been in the middle of them. The IDF does not target civilians and you can not prove it. Show me one mission where civilians were targets!

Your reality of the situation is that the poor Palestinian Arabs do nothing. They are just killed for no reason whatsoever by Jews.

[Kapiti]

Mediocrates, The earlier post by WHEREAMIGOD was not a threat. It clearly responded to a hypthotetical proposal put by MGB8. Have you lost your marbles.

Vietnam. Mediocrates, yes in a way you are right that if the American politicians had been prepared to send many more soldiers to fight or use more bombs to kill from the air they could have destroyed the country, killed all the people and won the Vietnam War.

The point that WHEREAMIGOD makes is especially relevant about Guerrilla war fare. America will not have the motivation (as much as many on this board, and especially the fruitcake THEYARE would like it) to kill all the muslims and arabs. It will not carpet bomb or nuclear bomb the region to get all those terrible terrible arabs. The conclusion is that at least most will remain. Rest very assured that in the event of a major action against the Arabs the level of hate for Israel and America will rise even more and the most that remain will provide a deep well from which to draw further terrorism.

Your chances of getting a more secure Middle East or Israel (or USA for that matter) is zero.

There is but one way. Peace.

[Mediocrates]

Vietnam. Mediocrates, yes in a way you are right that if the American politicians had been prepared to send many more soldiers to fight or use more bombs to kill from the air they could have destroyed the country, killed all the people and won the Vietnam War.


Brief OT: actually this is self serving. The reality of the situation on the ground was not SCALE. But intent. Field level commanders were hamstrung from carrying out their military objectives per political restraints. For example did you know that Naval Aviators had to, in some campaigns, fly the same patterns day after day and were prohibited from striking at military targets they could see with their own eyes because of political restraints?

That's what I mean by political failure.

No I haven't lost my marbles, thank you.

[TheyAre]

Really, the UN is standing behind Israel? Yeah, standing behind cause they don't want to be in front when then end comes? Newbie? What are we surfers or something. Israel has nukes? And? So does Russia, China, N. Korea. Nations have been threatening to use them for decades. And nothing. ONe one nation has used them. Israel will do nothing. And discussing how easy it is for Israel to take out its enemies, that is true, seeing how they have no regard for human life or civilians. Also, the U.S. will pour troops into Israel to protect that nation? My friend, you have lost your mind. We're there to give you weapons and money. We didn't fight with the Afghani's did we? No we gave them weapons to use against the Russians? If you truly believe that fairy tale, then ask yourself who the newbie is. Also saying "LOL LOL" is kinda sad. Now go back to listening to your vanilla ice cd and let the big boys talk. Good night.

Its time to put you to bed, time for the adults to have a conversation without you jumping in and yelling "the Israels are Nazis" "Praise Allah" and "Jihad Jihad."

I live in Pennsylvania, I am not a surfer. I didn't even know surfers use the word newbie.

You don't think that the Israeli government would blow up the Middle East if "every Muslim in the world" invaded Israel? You've obviously never met a Jew, or even talked to one in real life, outside of the internet. If you're "worrying about whether you'll die by gun or bomb," why would you go down when you still have bullets in the gun.

Unlike Palestine, Israel is a member of the United Nations. Any war in which the Arabs would invade Israel would be condemned by the UN, and after 9/11 if you don't think that a UN coalition with troops mainly from the U.S. would not go into Israel to protect the sovereignty of Israel and the lives of the Jewish people, you're a moron. Wait, you're already a moron. Sorry.

Also, after 9/11, don't you think that Bush or the Republicans wouldn't send troops into Israel to help the Israelis defend their country if Israel asked for it or accepted an offer of help? Once again, you're a moron. Regardless of what Bill Clinton says, he will not "go into a trench and die defending Israel," but you sure as hell know George Bush would send American boys to the Jordan River if you Arabs hadn't already proven your inability (a.k.a. you're a bunch of impotent idiots who don't know how to use the advantage of numbers) to defeat a few million Jews with "1.4 billion angry Muslims."

Back into the cellar, boy. We have visitors, and we certainly don't want them seeing you.

Also, LOL is my way of saying "you're such an idiot that I can't contain the laughter trying to split my sides." Thank you.

[MGB8]

Vietnam is actually a bad military example because of terrain and commitment.

Vietnam, or even Bosnia or Afghanistant, are much worse terrain for an army to fight in because, especially in Vietnam, the ammount of cover and the ability to set up traps and force the use of infantry units.

Most of the mideast is fairly flat (fairly), making guerilla warfare much much less effective.

Also, you doubt the commitment of Israel, which is Idiotic.

Israel views the land as THEIRS, their home, and unlike the US in Vietnam, will fight to the end for it.

The US need do very little.

Finally, another major attack like 9-11, and I would not be surprised at all to see tactical nuclear weapons put into use.

[Mediocrates]

Tactical Nukes?

Well in terms of raw physics, the "Thermobaric Bombs" we all had an opportunity to learn about in Afghanistan have an effective yield in the 5kt range. The actual numbers are classified but based on the F-A weapons (Fuel-Air) they're based on, which are the most powerful nonnuclear weapons, a 5kt yield is a good estimate. That's 5 kilotons (or 0.42 Hiroshima, estimated).