Judaism Attacks Christianity

[Soul]

I've never known anything about Talmud, or Judaism, so i thought to descover it, by accident , I got a Christian web-site, and I found these shocking texts, Can anyone help me out and let me understand them better please.


Insults Against The Blessed Virgin Mary
...
Gloats over Christ Dying Young
...
Horrible Blasphemy of Jesus Christ
...
Christian Book Burning
...
Oh Jerusalem , The ones you've already explained, please don't mention them again.


Please keep on topic.I don't want the topic to emrge to anything else, let it as it is.

[Ezra]

I guess you are Muslim Mr. Soul, right?

At least when a Jewish attacks my religion (i.e. Christianity), I know that I can discuss it with them without being afraid that he kills me as I feel when I'm talking to Muslims about Jihad!

Nice try anyway!

[Soul]

Ezra , Please Be On topic , if you have no idea whatsoever I'm talking about , then zip your mouth.The thread is for Jews to explain some concepts in Talmud.As long you claimed you're a christian , be out of this , or at least try to be on topic.

If you keep your same track, I will ignore all your comments in the forums.


Sincerely yours,

Soul


===================================


I'm waiting for someone to explain what I stated in my 1st post.

[JustPat]

Soul:

Since the Talmud is an ongoing commentary and not the Scriptures, why concern yourself with it. Every man is entitled to his opinion, those that get in print must live with it for a lifetime or more. Sometimes stupidity is best seen from a distance and held againt the truth is readily revealed.

Rather than wrangle over a commentary, why not broach the subject in light of the truth of Scripture. You take the Talmud; I'll stick with the Tanakh.

**********
2 "Should the wise answer with windy opinions, and fill his belly with the east wind? 3 Should he argue in useless talk, with words that are of no worth?" (Job 15:2-3)

[Oh Jerusalem]

Although I did previously look up and explain (and correctly translate) all the Talmudic references brought up by some poster elsewhere, here it's much easier to make it brief.

Judaism completely opposes Christianity and views it as a sham, plain and simple.

Jesus was a Jewish Talmudic student who went on his own messianic ways and is view as a false prophet, also plain and simple.

There are no secrets here, just as there are no secrets that Christianity has nothing to do with Judaism itself, even though Jesus was otherwise a practicing Jew. Indeed, chances are that had Jesus known that his Jewish disciples would abandon Judaism the way they did, he most probably would have been disgusted.

No mincing words here. No apologetics needed either.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Soul
Ezra , Please Be On topic , if you have no idea whatsoever I'm talking about , then zip your mouth.The thread is for Jews to explain some concepts in Talmud.As long you claimed you're a christian , be out of this , or at least try to be on topic.

If you keep your same track, I will ignore all your comments in the forums.

Sincerely yours,
Soul
===================================
I'm waiting for someone to explain what I stated in my 1st post.

If it's something between Jewish and Christians, what's your bussiness here? I understand that Jewish-Christians is non-of the bussiness of a Muslims.... Unless ofcourse he has some dirty plan going on in his dirty mind.

[ibrodsky]

Actually, Christianity and Judaism have both undergone modernization and the vast majority of followers believe in tolerance, cooperation, and good will.

Unfortunately, Islam is unique in that it has remained essentially unchanged for >1,000 years. It rejects separation of church and state, and teaches only limited tolerance. In essence, Islam strives to conquer the world, after which it professes to tolerate Jews and Christians as long as they pay the tax penalties.

As we saw on 9/11/01, and since then in Pakistani churches, and weekly in Israel, Islam attacks both Christianity and Judaism with equal savagery.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
In essence, Islam strives to conquer the world, after which it professes to tolerate Jews and Christians as long as they pay the tax penalties.

... and that's what make Islam an enemy for every other non-Islam..

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Judaism completely opposes Christianity and views it as a sham, plain and simple.

Oh Jerusalem:

Not to burst your bubble, but Judaism is a belief system rooted in the traditions passed down from Abraham to today. Based on my reading and understanding, romm is allowed for any alien who is willing to tolerate its practices and support its members.

Christianity, in its true form is in no way in opposition to Judaism. As a matter of fact, Christians are some of the best friends Israel has. Until the middle of the second century CE, those who were to be labled "Christian" worshipped side by side with thier fellow Jews. As a matter of fact, until politics entered the scene and divided the Christians from the Jews they were able to share the same Temple and Synogogues without conflict.

I sense that you have either been hurt by those calling themselves Christian or are threatened by them. Be assured, real Christians want only the blessing of G-d to rest on His people.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by JustPat
Not to burst your bubble, but Judaism is a belief system rooted in the traditions passed down from Abraham to today.

Very much in a nutshell but correct. No bubble burst.


Based on my reading and understanding, romm is allowed for any alien who is willing to tolerate its practices and support its members.

I'm sorry but could you rephrase your point. I don't understand it.


Christianity, in its true form is in no way in opposition to Judaism.

Theologically, this is 100% false.


As a matter of fact, Christians are some of the best friends Israel has.

This is not a contradiction to anything I said. I was referring to Christianity as a belief and not to the Christian people themselves.


Until the middle of the second century CE, those who were to be labled "Christian" worshipped side by side with thier fellow Jews.

Not so. Those Jews separated from the rest. They didn't last long either. See:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_40_-_Seeds_of_Christianity.asp

Some notes on the subject in general:

http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse.asp?s=christianity&f=tqak&offset=1


As a matter of fact, until politics entered the scene and divided the Christians from the Jews they were able to share the same Temple and Synogogues without conflict.

Once again, read http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_40_-_Seeds_of_Christianity.asp .


I sense that you have either been hurt by those calling themselves Christian or are threatened by them.

Not at all. My point was simply to convey that any highly negative quotes from the Talmud regarding anything to do with Christianity may very likely be true and I won't bother looking them up to see if the quotes are actually harsher or gentler than the translations that member Soul posted here.
Be assured, real Christians want only the blessing of G-d to rest on His people. [/B][/QUOTE]

[Moshe Yess]

Just dropped into this interesting thread tonight. I am a new member. I intend to soon address the topic of Moshiach-King Messiah-from its Jewish origins as soon as I can start a new thread. 99% of Jews have never studied this topic from classic Jewish sources. Along the way we will see exactly why Jesus never was Judaism's King Messiah. We wil see why Christianity was/is a positive stepping stone above paganism for Gentiles. We will get a clear Jewish Legal mind picture of who and what Moshiach is. Stay tuned.

Rabbbi Moshe Yess

[Simon]

Judaism preceded Christianity by what 3,000 yrs. So how is it exactly that Judaism insults a religion that was not in existence some 3,000 yrs after its conception.

Islam on the other hand is a medieval fanatical religion that has spawned a billion bigots over the world today.

And what exactly is sanhedrin??

[shoshannah]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess
I intend to soon address the topic of Moshiach-King Messiah-from its Jewish origins as soon as I can start a new thread.


Then you might find this message board intresting:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/index.php

As it deals quite a bit with that subject.

[Moshe Yess]

Originally posted by shoshannah


Then you might find this message board intresting:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/index.php

As it deals quite a bit with that subject.

No doubt it does. I am in possession of certain information that will seriously rattle some cages. Stay tuned.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Rabbi Moshe Yess


No doubt it does. I am in possession of certain information that will seriously rattle some cages. Stay tuned.

Rabbi Moshe Yess

Can't wait! (as long as we don't follow the Muslims way of killing whoever believes differently).

The other thing, I really hope that what you will say next would be for the sake of illustrating not disputing and insulting.

[Moshe Yess]

New thread started under name The Lubavitcher Rebbe as Moshiach.

RMY

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Manuel


What has your assesment of Islam got to do with the original topic???

The point is that quotes from the Talmud, mistranslated and taken out of context, have little to do with current relations between Jews and Christians.

Mainstream Judaism and Christianity both agree that religion must take into account facts acquired by human inquiry, and must not contradict logic.

Soul claims that Judaism attacks Christianity. But at rallies all over the US supporting Israel's right to defend herself against terrorism there are Christian as well as Jewish speakers and attendees. Meanwhile, Muslims are conspicuously absent from such rallies because they refuse to take a clear stand against mass murder of civilians.

Also in this forum, you see Christians supporting Israel, and Jews such as me thanking them for their support.

Soul and Islamists would like nothing more than to turn Christians against Jews and Israel. Therefore, they parade "quotes" from the Talmud--often based on material found on White Power and neoNazi Websites.

You, as an admitted gay person, should be concerned that while gays' rights are protected in Judeo-Christian societies, homosexualty is outlawed and even punishable by death in many Islamic countries -- including the WB and Gaza.

[ibrodsky]

I did a Web search and found the exact text Soul posted on a Web site that features related items such as "Why I am a White Racist."

http://www.ety.com/HRP/race/raclist.htm

Of course, there is plenty more anti-semitic material on the site. Such as an essay "...in Hitler's defense."

[Israel98]

change ur name ezra is an arabic name

Then why is a book in the Hebrew scriptures written by one named Ezra?

[TheRock]

Originally posted by Israel98


Then why is a book in the Hebrew scriptures written by one named Ezra?

last time i checked arabic and hebrew stem from the same roots,

[Justicator]

Oh Jerusalem ,

Pretty harsh statements on your part about Christianity is this the general consensus of Jews ? I thought I was back on an Islamic website reading your statements . I am a Christian so yes we differ on our belief about Jesus but we haven't corrupted the Torah to fit our needs it stands in our beliefs as it is in yours . You could at least be civil and state we don't believe Jesus was the Messiah . I expected total disregard in reference to Islam but not Christianity from this site . :(

[Justicator]

Pretty harsh statements on your part about Christianity is this the general consensus of Jews ?

Anyone care to respond to this post who is a Jew ? If this the general consensus I think we should let the Muslims and Jews slug it out and then crush the winner permanently .

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Justicator
Pretty harsh statements on your part about Christianity is this the general consensus of Jews ?

Anyone care to respond to this post who is a Jew ? If this the general consensus I think we should let the Muslims and Jews slug it out and then crush the winner permanently .

Yes, your last comment shows that you are the one with the belligerent views.

Of course Jews don't believe in Christianity. Please remember that Jews do not try to convert Christians to Judaism. Some Jews are understandably offended when Christians try to convert them (in some cases telling them they will burn in Hell if they don't).

There are many Christians who support Israel. I and many other Jews are very appeciative. And we often have much in common beyond the Israeli-Arab conflict.

IMO, Israel's genuine Christian allies aren't so easily offended as you seem to be. Oh Jerusalem is one person. Personally, I consider his/her comments tactless. But you are ready to "crush" all Jews because of one person's comments? That type of Christian "ally" we don't need.

[Justicator]

IMO, Israel's genuine Christian allies aren't so easily offended as you seem to be. Oh Jerusalem is one person. Personally, I consider his/her comments tactless. But you are ready to "crush" all Jews because of one person's comments? That type of Christian "ally" we don't need.

No I'm not easily offended but I don't see any Jews denouncing the statement . Silence speaks as loud as words . I stated I was ready to crush all Jews ? Maybe you should read again I said winner . It it's a shame I would have to go to such extremes to get a response rebuking the filth espoused by OJerusalem from supposed allies . It is fine if you don't accept Christ I have no problem with that but the absolute filth is not becoming and Jews should at least police such vulgarity . Should I have posted what I did no but noone here is responding to anything but hate . You prove my point noone responded to the post I made last night but you posted immediatly after I attached some hate to it .

Israel's genuine Christian allies aren't so easily offended as you seem to be.

And Isreal's true Jews aren't sitting on thier duff watching from far distances ( ie. YOU in the U.S. )while thier brothers are on the front lines .

[Ezra]

Originally posted by SoMuchMass


change ur name ezra is an arabic name, if you hate muslims and arabs so much change your name to a more chiristian or jewish name, your ignorant

I didn't notice that another impolite person has come!

First, I don't hate anyone. I just show facts.
Second, my name is non of your F*** business.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Israel98


Then why is a book in the Hebrew scriptures written by one named Ezra?

Dears Israel98 and TheRock,

Don't bother replying to such ignorant people. If we stopped at each barking dog, we will never walk through our lives, right?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Justicator
IMO, Israel's genuine Christian allies aren't so easily offended as you seem to be. Oh Jerusalem is one person. Personally, I consider his/her comments tactless. But you are ready to "crush" all Jews because of one person's comments? That type of Christian "ally" we don't need.

No I'm not easily offended but I don't see any Jews denouncing the statement . Silence speaks as loud as words . I stated I was ready to crush all Jews ? Maybe you should read again I said winner . It it's a shame I would have to go to such extremes to get a response rebuking the filth espoused by OJerusalem from supposed allies . It is fine if you don't accept Christ I have no problem with that but the absolute filth is not becoming and Jews should at least police such vulgarity . Should I have posted what I did no but noone here is responding to anything but hate . You prove my point noone responded to the post I made last night but you posted immediatly after I attached some hate to it .

Israel's genuine Christian allies aren't so easily offended as you seem to be.

And Isreal's true Jews aren't sitting on thier duff watching from far distances ( ie. YOU in the U.S. )while thier brothers are on the front lines .

You said "we should let the Muslims and Jews slug it out and then crush the winner permanently." Well, at least you are an equal opportunity bigot.

I condemned Oh Jerusalem for his/her anti-Christian remarks. The Rules of the Road prohibit all religion bashing in this forum.

P.S.: Let's not obscure the real issue here. Soul started this thread using material that is found on NeoNazi White Power sites.

[Justicator]

The Rules of the Road prohibit all religion bashing in this forum.

Yes let us not obscure the real issue here I fully explained my tactless post to you there is no need to call me a bigot . I don't care who posted what it is obvious there are no rules here as I have reported the issue and still that filth remains . Soul and OJerusalem both go beyond the limits of mere bashing with the VULGAR language which they apply to Jesus . You Sir need not qualify who is a good Christian ally while you sit upon your ivory tower in hypocrisy . I am not a Jew and support the cause in Isreal which is in stark contrast to you who is a Jew sitting from distance in the U.S. expousing who meets the criteria to be an ally . Your actions alone prove you hold no moral ground ( which you believe you have ) to place judgement on me . I suggest you drop the non issue in those regards .

[Ezra]

Guys,

I think we should be a little calm here. If you were around since a long time, you will know that the so called Soul is a Muslim (although he denies that) and started this forum just to keep the heads away from other topics that were revealing Islam. he was so clever not to attack Christians or Jewish, but to let Christians attack Jewish. Let's not make him win by actually start attacking each other and forget the real danger around.

Jewish know very well that real Christians support Israel. Jewish are civilized enough to know that everyone is free to believe what he wants to believe in as long as it's not harming others.

So...

Christians: Don't let Muslims win by starting hate between you and Jewish.

Jewish: Christians support you and don't harm you with their beliefs. Compare this to Muslims and realize who should you be attacking.

[Justicator]

I already know who and why it was posted . I don't believe Souls post though to be honest I never read the Talmud . But he isn't the only one in this thread Ojerusalem basically calls Jesus a BASTARD in his replies . I only ask that the supposed rules be enforced and these posts be removed . There is no need to leave them up there so that others can see thier falicy anyone clearly knows people post such trash on the net . All I ask is that the rules here be enforced . Clearly from my response people just visiting this board for the first time can get the wrong impression . I told a poster named Rabbi something to read the book of Revelations if he wanted prophecy to which he replied it belongs in the trash . Hey thats all well within bounds to me ( and the rules ) but leaving vulgar statement up isn't no matter who posted it .

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Justicator
... There is no need to leave them up there so that others can see thier falicy anyone clearly knows people post such trash on the net ...

You know what, Justicator, I've seen other posts of your on the forum and respect your views.

You're right about not needing to leave that garbage for all to see. It's done.

Now, adding to what has already been said in this thread about the Jewish views of Christians:

At this point in history, I believe Christians to be our greatest allies, in general. Most of the Christian world has come to be very civilized and shares nearly all the very same values as Jews.

In fact, someone once said to me that, in terms of family and political values, Orthodox Jews have more in common with conservative Christians than they have in common with many non-observant liberal Jews.

As far as the Israeli issue is concerned, the same Islamic extremists that target Jews, would just as soon target Christian "infidels," and "Crusaders." Similarly, in Arab countries, both Jews and Christians are either persona non grata or they are considered second-class citizens.

[Justicator]

:)

[Ezra]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


You know what, Justicator, I've seen other posts of your on the forum and respect your views.

You're right about not needing to leave that garbage for all to see. It's done.

Now, adding to what has already been said in this thread about the Jewish views of Christians:

At this point in history, I believe Christians to be our greatest allies, in general. Most of the Christian world has come to be very civilized and shares nearly all the very same values as Jews.

In fact, someone once said to me that, in terms of family and political values, Orthodox Jews have more in common with conservative Christians than they have in common with many non-observant liberal Jews.

As far as the Israeli issue is concerned, the same Islamic extremists that target Jews, would just as soon target Christian "infidels," and "Crusaders." Similarly, in Arab countries, both Jews and Christians are either persona non grata or they are considered second-class citizens.


Well said NewsGuy.

[Blowy]

Originally posted by Soul
I've never known anything about Talmud, or Judaism, so i thought to descover it, by accident , I got a Christian web-site, and I found these shocking texts, Can anyone help me out and let me understand them better please.


Insults Against The Blessed Virgin Mary
...
Gloats over Christ Dying Young
...
Horrible Blasphemy of Jesus Christ
...
Christian Book Burning
...
Oh Jerusalem , The ones you've already explained, please don't mention them again.


Please keep on topic.I don't want the topic to emrge to anything else, let it as it is.

it's called anti-semitism.

[Blowy]

"The Jewish written law is contained in the Pentateuch (the Five Books of Moses, i.e., the Torah). The Talmud is the compilation of Jewish oral law, consisting of the mishna, compiled and redacted by Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi, known as Rebbi, about the year 189 C.E.; and the gemara, commentaries and discussions on the mishna put into written form about 1500 years ago. The oral law elaborates on the written law."

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by Ezra
I guess you are Muslim Mr. Soul, right?

At least when a Jewish attacks my religion (i.e. Christianity), I know that I can discuss it with them without being afraid that he kills me as I feel when I'm talking to Muslims about Jihad!

Nice try anyway!

Yessss exactly! I am sure there is a Jewish man with exact the same personality as me.

Jews don't insult me and I don't insult Jews. Religion today is obsolete to technology and openmindedness.

Who ever believes Medieval Church reasons is a fool.

Here is what I understand:

Christians: Technology, freedom, openness.

Jewish people and Israel: Technology, freedom, openness.

Hindus: Freedom. stable progression in technology, openness.

Islam: backward technology, close middleness in almost all societies, religious backwardsness.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Here is what I understand:

Christians: Technology, freedom, openness.

Jewish people and Israel: Technology, freedom, openness.

Hindus: Freedom. stable progression in technology, openness.

Islam: backward technology, close middleness in almost all societies, religious backwardsness.

Oh here we go again :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Change the script, it's not funny anymore. I have already refuted this with proof & got silence as your response (which spoke volume). You just don't like Arabs, u'd rather sleep with a dog than any Arab/Lebanese woman. You simply don't like us, admit it.

[danholo]

Religion is not "obsolete" in today's society. However, what Soul said about Judaism is not true. There are a lot of lies and BS going around the net about Judaism. Everything negative can be and has been refuted.

[Ezra]

Regardless of how disgusting this "Soul" is, we should all thank him for illustrating to us another method of how Islam plans to dominate, i.e. trying to start conflictions between Jewish and Christians. Needless to mention of course the BS story that started after the September 11 attacks that 4000 Jews didn't go to their works in the WTC in this day!!!!

[Mediocrates]

Take a breath and a Paxil. What are you saying, eh?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
Regardless of how disgusting this "Soul" is, we should all thank him for illustrating to us another method of how Islam plans to dominate, i.e. trying to start conflictions between Jewish and Christians. Needless to mention of course the BS story that started after the September 11 attacks that 4000 Jews didn't go to their works in the WTC in this day!!!!

omg you ezra are a character?? do you think the jewish people and christians have been living in harmony??? have you lost your senses?? do you think that islam is the one that caused conflict between judaism and christianity?? do you think islam caused the persecution of millions of jews in the roman empire, do you think islam caused the massacre of the jews by the byzantine empire, do you think the king and queen of spain killed jews and forced them to convert cause of islam? do you think hilter ( a catholic dicator) killed millions of jews cause of islam??

what kind of world are you living in?? starting conflicts ezra??? as I like to say all the time, the christians have cause the greatess distress and slaughter of the jewish people than any other people in history, so dont blame other religions for the mistakes of yours.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman


omg you ezra are a character?? do you think the jewish people and christians have been living in harmony??? have you lost your senses?? do you think that islam is the one that caused conflict between judaism and christianity?? do you think islam caused the persecution of millions of jews in the roman empire, do you think islam caused the massacre of the jews by the byzantine empire, do you think the king and queen of spain killed jews and forced them to convert cause of islam? do you think hilter ( a catholic dicator) killed millions of jews cause of islam??

what kind of world are you living in?? starting conflicts ezra??? as I like to say all the time, the christians have cause the greatess distress and slaughter of the jewish people than any other people in history, so dont blame other religions for the mistakes of yours.

We are already discussing that in the "Amazing CBS show forum" and you failed to prove that any of them was supported by religious motivation not a political one. You even failed to provide a single Biblical quote!

So, till you do that, I strongly recommend that you don't bother writing anything coz no one is taking your messages for serious!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra


We are already discussing that in the "Amazing CBS show forum" and you failed to prove that any of them was supported by religious motivation not a political one. You even failed to provide a single Biblical quote!

So, till you do that, I strongly recommend that you don't bother writing anything coz no one is taking your messages for serious!

ok you want quotes I will find quotes for you, but notice how you got your negative quotes from islamic hate sites, I will provide quotes for you, just a few its over at 'amazing show on cbs'

[Teacake]

Originally posted by Soul
I've never known anything about Talmud, or Judaism, so i thought to descover it, by accident , I got a Christian web-site, and I found these shocking texts, Can anyone help me out and let me understand them better please

Insults Against The Blessed Virgin Mary
...
Gloats over Christ Dying Young
...
Horrible Blasphemy of Jesus Christ
...
Christian Book Burning
Consider this SouL, how would it be possible that our ancient texts could defame christianity when in fact everything was written long long before christianity was invented?

Is it possible these things are made up for people like yourself to believe since you say you have no knowledge of our books?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
So, till you do that, I strongly recommend that you don't bother writing anything coz no one is taking your messages for serious!

Taking your messages for serious???? what language is that??? You think im lying on the fact that the christians have persecuted the jews more than anyother people in history, dont change the subject on this like you always do, explain why the christians have persecute the jews forever, just like every other people but christians even more.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman


Taking your messages for serious???? what language is that??? You think im lying on the fact that the christians have persecuted the jews more than anyother people in history, dont change the subject on this like you always do, explain why the christians have persecute the jews forever, just like every other people but christians even more.

Forever?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D :D :D
You are so pathetic! Go get help! I asked for a proof for that, and you are running like a cat from shower! Go to the "CBS show" forum to see how idiot you are! I really wish to see how many are laughing at you right now!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra


Forever?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D :D :D
You are so pathetic! Go get help! I asked for a proof for that, and you are running like a cat from shower! Go to the "CBS show" forum to see how idiot you are! I really wish to see how many are laughing at you right now!

lol, im laughing at you cause you remind me of an old lady that acts like a child, keep changing the subject, like all christians like to do when it comes to christianity brutalism to the jewish people, lol

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman


lol, im laughing at you cause you remind me of an old lady that acts like a child, keep changing the subject, like all christians like to do when it comes to christianity brutalism to the jewish people, lol


If I can just figure out what are you refering to when you say "changing the subject" !!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the sequence of our discussion:

1) You claim that Christianity has always attacked Judaism.
2) I asked for a proof.
3) You mentioned Hitler.
4) I asked for a proof that Hitler used the Bible for his acts.
5) You mentioned writings for Hitler that has NOTHING to do with the bible.
6) I pointed that out to you.
7) You started mentioning some verses in the Bible (although has nothing to do with Hitler).
8) I showed you that these verses are so funny and unrelated to the discussion in the first place!
9) You started complaining that I changed the topic!

See how fool you look now ?

[reason]

The fact that the Pope during WWII didnt do anything to stop the massascre of the Jews is proof thar christianity is not tolerant of judaism .The Catholic church apologized to the Jews a few years ago. Ezra the Christians (I believe the religion to be tolerant) were very brutal people.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by reason
The fact that the Pope during WWII didnt do anything to stop the massascre of the Jews is proof thar christianity is not tolerant of judaism .The Catholic church apologized to the Jews a few years ago. Ezra the Christians (I believe the religion to be tolerant) were very brutal people.

thank you, I agree christianity is not as 'warlike' as islam, in fact they might be the most peaceful religion of all, but the christian people has been the most brutal to the jewish people way before WW2 and Hitler.

[Mediocrates]

WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THE FATE OF JERUSALEM!

Ruth Matar, Women in Green Radio Program
Arutz Sheva, October 16,2002

Last Friday, October 11, there was a wonderful happening in Washington
DC a rally by United States Christian Zionists in support of Israel

The success of this rally was eagerly anticipated by all those who love
Zion, and who believe in the promise of HaShem to His People Israel: "I
will give you this land for an everlasting possession." This rally was
intended to demonstrate grassroots American Christian support for Israel.

Some of the major American media, such as the "60 Minutes" TV program and
the Washington Post, treated this rally in a very negative
manner. Clarence Wagner, International Director of Bridges for Peace, told
me that he had agreed to be interviewed on the "60 Minutes" TV program, but
was very disappointed in the negative approach to Christian Zionists shown
by the producers of this program. Their orientation immediately becomes
crystal clear if we consider their choice of Gershom Gorenberg, a little
known Israeli political journalist as their expert on Jews and Christians.

Mr. Gorenberg is a major self-hating Jew, and he doesn't like
Bible-believing Christians any better. In fact, he thinks those kinds of
Christians are dangerous, and he wants Israel to turn its back on them.

Why does he hate Christian and Jewish Zionists so much? Because we both
believe, as did Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion, that our
right to this Land is based on the Bible, or in his words: "The Bible is
our mandate."

I might as well quote Gorenberg directly. This quote is from the October
Jerusalem Report.

"The Jewish belief in a classic divine promise of return should be
categorized as a bizarre, modern, ultra-nationalistic, sectarian, Zionist
invention."

Pretty clever those Zionists, to be able to "invent" such ideas! Without
any help from the Bible?

The Washington Post has also "discovered" Gershom Gorenberg. They
published an article of his on October 11, 2002, the day of the rally,
entitled "Un-Orthodox Alliance". The sub-title of this article was
"Israeli and Jewish interests are better served by keeping a polite
distance from the Christian right." His article is an unmitigated attack
on Christian Zionists.

Gorenberg also engages in sloppy advocacy journalism. He is not beyond
slipping in some unsupported facts as incontrovertible truth: "No wonder,"
he says, "that a recent poll showed a majority of Israel's Jews favoring a
Palestinian state." Which poll was that? When was this poll taken? Who
took this poll? Where was this poll taken?

On the other hand, the Women in Green have collected hundreds of thousands
of signatures on a petition against a Palestinian state in our G-d-given
land. These are authentic signatures of real people, with real addresses,
and with real phone numbers.

Now here is another Gershom Gorenberg quote from the Washington Post
article. This one takes the cake!

"But as frightening as Palestinian terror is, it does not threaten
Israel's existence. The Christian right's position, on the other hand, is
exemplified by Senator Inhofe's statement last March on the Senate floor
that Israel should keep the West Bank "because G-d said so". Rather than
support for Israel, this is support for hard-line policies that endanger
Israel in the name of fundamentalist theology."

Can you imagine: Gershom Gorenberg lives in Jerusalem and is not afraid of
Palestinian terrorists, but thinks that Senator Inhofe's statement "because
G-d said so" endangers Israel in the name of fundamentalist theology!

I, for one, choose to be in the camp of G-d and Senator Inhofe; it seems to
me that this Gershom Gorenberg is rather intellectually and morally
challenged.

Why then, did the "60 Minutes" TV program and the Washington Post feature
this not-too-well-known Israeli journalist to do a hatchet job on the
evangelical Christians in the United States? Might these media giants have
an agenda of their own, which usually turns out to be anti-Israel?

How about giving equal time to former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu,
Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert, Knesset Member Benny Elon, Christian Coalition
National President Roberta Combs, US Senator Sam Brownback, Congressman
Lindsay Graham, Clarence Wagner, and others?

Christian Coalition Head Roberta Combs explained the purpose of the rally:

"We are holding a rally for Israel during these difficult times to let
Israel know that they are not alone. This rally is to let the Jewish State
know that we stand with them."

Besides standing with the Jews because of religious and moral concerns,
there is an additional reason for Christian support for Israel: Enlightened
self-interest! That is why our topic tonight is:

WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THE FATE OF JERUSALEM!

Our guest tonight is David Raab, who is a Strategy Consultant. He has done
a lot of research on this topic and has recently written two articles of
great interest to Christians: "Understanding American Christian
Perspectives Regarding Jerusalem" and "The Beleaguered Christians of the
Palestinian-Controlled Territories."

(A recording of this entire program, including the interview, is available
on http://www.israelnationalnews.com - Click on "On Demand Audio" on the
blue bar.)

Most of us have realized by now that the Arabs not only hate the Jews, but
they hate the Christians too. We both are in their eyes "infidels" and
"dhimmies", a lower class of human beings than Muslims, the believers in
Allah. "Allahu Akhbar" means, not as commonly believed, "Allah is great",
but "Allah is greater". Also, we have all heard of the popular Arab
graffiti "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people". But, until I
read David Raab's articles on the beleaguered Christians in the Muslim
countries in the Middle East, I didn't realize how precarious their
situation really is. In his research, Mr. Raab has focused specifically on
Christians in the Holy Land and Jerusalem.

The United States State Department has just published their Annual
International Religious Freedom Report which asserts that the "Palestinian
Authority makes a strong effort to maintain good relations with the
Christian community". The US State Department is once again not telling us
the truth.

I found the following Letter to the Editor in today's Jerusalem Post,
entitled, "Do Not Destroy":

Sir- I returned on October 11 from a pilgrimage to Israel with a group
of Zionist Christians. We were blessed to be in the land, and our desire
was to support the Israeli people. We were met with warmth and
enthusiasm. On our last day in Jerusalem, we went to the Garden Tomb in
East Jerusalem near the Damascus Gate. There was a distressing thing
happening to the Hill of Golgotha. The Arab bus station, in the process of
expanding, is defacing this site, so important to the Evangelical Christian
community worldwide. The mouth of the skull is now gone, and the nose will
be removed by next week. Someone has to do something. If it were the
Church of the Holy Sepulcher or the Church of the Nativity being destroyed,
there would be a worldwide outcry from the Catholic Church. Please bring
this issue to the forefront and assist us in making this destruction come
immediately to an end.

Patricia Purcell

Jacksonville, Oregon

We, living in the Land, much appreciate our Christian friends rallying in
Washington DC to support Israel. However, it is important to realize at
this time that there are vital practical concerns about Christians and
Christian interests in Jerusalem and the Holy Land. These concerns need to
be addressed immediately, such as the discrimination against Christians in
East Jerusalem and the Palestinian Authority-controlled territories.

What can American Christians do? Above all, don't let the United States
State Department once again pull the wool over your eyes. "The Palestinian
Authority is not making a strong effort to maintain good relations with the
Christian community." In fact, Christians are beleaguered. The Muslims
are discriminating against them, and they show utter contempt for
Evangelical Christian holy places, as you can understand from reading the
letter by Patricia Purcell from Jacksonville, Oregon.

What can you do practically? Alert your representatives, your senators,
and President George W. Bush, as to how you view the true situation in the
Holy Land. It is not enough to "stand with Israel". American Christians
must actively make their own government realize that Israel is not a burden
on Christian America in its fight against terror. On the contrary, Israel
is on the frontlines of the battle against the militant Muslim onslaught
against our Judeo-Christian heritage.

In the words of the Prophet Isaiah, 62:1--

"For Zion's I will not be still, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not
be silent, until her righteousness emanates like a bright light and her
salvation blazes like a torch."


=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green)
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
mailto:michael@womeningreen.org
http://www.womeningreen.org
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[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
The fact that the Pope during WWII didnt do anything to stop the massascre of the Jews is proof thar christianity is not tolerant of judaism .The Catholic church apologized to the Jews a few years ago. Ezra the Christians (I believe the religion to be tolerant) were very brutal people.

Cool!

Is the silent of the Pope means Christians were very brutal? What a sick logic!

Give me an example, if you were the Pope, what would you have said? And what effect would that have done?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra


Cool!

Is the silent of the Pope means Christians were very brutal? What a sick logic!

Give me an example, if you were the Pope, what would you have said? And what effect would that have done?

The german people that helped in this crime shows somethings. like brutality

[Teacake]

Just because the world of christianity has become civilized during the past 50 years doen'st erase the past 1,950 years of bloodbaths for Jews. Ezra, where do you think todays muslims got their ideas and propaganda? Had chrisitans not been brutal savages with their countless pograms, the propaganda which was preached to the masses... islam woud have had to invent something out of the clear blue, but thanks to christianity... the road was paved for them to take up from where christianity left off.

Anyhow, the support of christians today is not so heart-warming, because I hear over and over again that support for Israel is nothing more than clearing the way for jesus to return and thereafter, jews convert to christianity, so in the end, the christian vision is still a world without Jews, even if it doesn't include a blood bath.

And in ending, the vatican believes that it owns Jerusalem, and that Israel is theirs. Don't beleive me? They have a website dedicated to exactly that. I"ll have to look for the url later.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe that's true. But it's only significant it you too believe that it's likely to happen. I have personal relationships with many "born again" people and I suppose more than a few of them believe something along the lines of what you describe. So? Do you think that's a risk?

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra


Cool!

Is the silent of the Pope means Christians were very brutal? What a sick logic!

Give me an example, if you were the Pope, what would you have said? And what effect would that have done?

Sometimes, silence is worse than a 100 words.It is bad that the figure head of the largest religion in the world didnt even acknolwedge the murder of the jews,but it is worse to be making excuses for such a man.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason


Sometimes, silence is worse than a 100 words.It is bad that the figure head of the largest religion in the world didnt even acknolwedge the murder of the jews,but it is worse to be making excuses for such a man.

Ok, Sheikh Al-Azhar and the Mofti didn't condemn killing innocents in suicide bombing in Israel. What do you say about that?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Teacake
Just because the world of christianity has become civilized during the past 50 years doen'st erase the past 1,950 years of bloodbaths for Jews. Ezra, where do you think todays muslims got their ideas and propaganda? Had chrisitans not been brutal savages with their countless pograms, the propaganda which was preached to the masses... islam woud have had to invent something out of the clear blue, but thanks to christianity... the road was paved for them to take up from where christianity left off.

Anyhow, the support of christians today is not so heart-warming, because I hear over and over again that support for Israel is nothing more than clearing the way for jesus to return and thereafter, jews convert to christianity, so in the end, the christian vision is still a world without Jews, even if it doesn't include a blood bath.

And in ending, the vatican believes that it owns Jerusalem, and that Israel is theirs. Don't beleive me? They have a website dedicated to exactly that. I"ll have to look for the url later.

Please read the posts from the beginning. Obviously you just entered from the middle. The discussion is about whether these acts were political or based on Biblical orders. "reason" and "Illy" claims that it was based on biblical orders. It has been almost 3 weeks now since the start of the discussion and they couldn't prove it!

Of course the part about "where did the Muslims got their ideas and propaganda" is so stupid and ignorant that doesn't worth replying to.

[Teacake]

They are right though. Thoughout history the church and state were one in the same. Until the United States I can't think of any nation that was for the people by the people... totally broken away and seperate from the church.

So, claims of how societies behave,d based on the christian bible is correct. And if you know christian history, it is you who is silly to deny that islam is a copy cat of medieval christian society.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra


Please read the posts from the beginning. Obviously you just entered from the middle. The discussion is about whether these acts were political or based on Biblical orders. "reason" and "Illy" claims that it was based on biblical orders. It has been almost 3 weeks now since the start of the discussion and they couldn't prove it!


its not Illy hahaha, its ILYA lol, good job.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason


Sometimes, silence is worse than a 100 words.It is bad that the figure head of the largest religion in the world didnt even acknolwedge the murder of the jews,but it is worse to be making excuses for such a man.

Still waiting Mr. reason.....

Sheikh Al-Azhar and the Mofti didn't condemn killing innocents in suicide bombing in Israel. What do you say about that?

[Dantheman]

I'm a Christian, but the Pope doesn't speak for me nor does the RCC. I consider Jews to be my Brothers, regardless of what they believe about Jesus. And I've never told a Jew they were gonna 'burn in hell' because that is not my decision, nor am I the eternal judge. Muslims on the other hand......

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra


Still waiting Mr. reason.....

Sheikh Al-Azhar and the Mofti didn't condemn killing innocents in suicide bombing in Israel. What do you say about that?


They are wrong, they should condemn it and by the way they are not the highest authority on Islam (because there is none, its not an organized religion). On the other hand the Pope IS the christian authority, what he does and says is seen as god sent, how do you explain gods silence when 6Million jews were massacred?And please remain on topic, and stop that finger pointing, because wrong and wrong dont make right.All you have provided here, is excuses for that evil man.I would also like to see your answer some of teacakes posts (which seem very true).

[reason]

Originally posted by Dantheman
I'm a Christian, but the Pope doesn't speak for me nor does the RCC. I consider Jews to be my Brothers, regardless of what they believe about Jesus. And I've never told a Jew they were gonna 'burn in hell' because that is not my decision, nor am I the eternal judge. Muslims on the other hand......

I'm a [Muslim], but [Bin laden] doesn't speak for me nor does the [Dar-Al Iftaa].I consider [jews and christians] to be my Brothers, regardless of what they believe about [Mohammed].And I've never told a [Jew or a christian] they were gonna 'burn in hell' because that is not my decision, nor am I the eternal judge.

See that puts the 'Muslims on the other hand.....' part down the gutter.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason



They are wrong, they should condemn it and by the way they are not the highest authority on Islam (because there is none, its not an organized religion).


Who is??


On the other hand the Pope IS the christian authority, what he does and says is seen as god sent, how do you explain gods silence when 6Million jews were massacred?And please remain on topic, and stop that finger pointing, because wrong and wrong dont make right.All you have provided here, is excuses for that evil man.


Wrong, my friend.
The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. Protestant christians do not hold him above any other human being on the planet. Jesus is the authority, not an old guy with a big hat.

[reason]

Originally posted by Dantheman



Wrong, my friend.
The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. Protestant christians do not hold him above any other human being on the planet. Jesus is the authority, not an old guy with a big hat.

But Catholics are christians arent they? You lumped all Muslims into one category why shouldnt I?

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason


But Catholics are christians arent they? You lumped all Muslims into one category why shouldnt I?

Point well taken. I apoligize. Put the fact still remains, the Pope is not the 'leader' of Christianity. Jesus Christ is.

[reason]

Originally posted by Dantheman


Point well taken. I apoligize. Put the fact still remains, the Pope is not the 'leader' of Christianity. Jesus Christ is.

LOL You just lumped christianity toghether now.A more precise statment would be :

Point well taken. I apoligize. Put the fact still remains, the Pope is not the 'leader' of [Protestant] Christianity. Jesus Christ is.

Because Catholics believe the Pope is their leader.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason


Point well taken. I apoligize. Put the fact still remains, the Pope is not the 'leader' of [Protestant] Christianity. Jesus Christ is.


Point well taken. I apoligize. But the fact still remains, the Pope is not the 'leader' of Protestant Christianity. Jesus Christ is.

Who did you say the leader of Islam is?

[reason]

There is none.Its not an organized religion.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason
There is none.Its not an organized religion.

Do you think that may be why there are so many radical terrorists that proclaim Islaam as their religion?

(Please don't take that question the wrong way, It's only asked out of curiosity.)

[Teacake]

Originally posted by reason
The fact that the Pope during WWII didnt do anything to stop the massascre of the Jews is proof thar christianity is not tolerant of judaism .The Catholic church apologized to the Jews a few years ago. Ezra the Christians (I believe the religion to be tolerant) were very brutal people.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~velid/cf/index.html

SNIP:

In the early years of the 20th century the Catholic church began to pursue a policy of alliance with the fascist regimes of Europe. This was an alliance based on opportunism, shared values and a common enemy. The church, increasingly frustrated with democratic pluralism, saw opportunities for advancing the interests of the faith in the clarity of dictatorship. It sought to meld Catholic and fascist doctrine into an alternative to both liberal democracy and communism. Most of all it sought to build an alliance to destroy communism, no matter the cost.
The church's experiment in clerical fascism led it to:

* Sign treaties (concordats) with Fascist Italy (1929) and Nazi Germany (1933), treaties that materially contributed to the the consolidation of the power and legitimacy of these regimes. In the wake of the concordat with Mussolini, which established Vatican City, the church began to consciously adopt fascist social and economic policies. The concordat with Germany was the first treaty to be signed by an international power with the Nazi regime. As an act of good faith, the Vatican encouraged the self-dissolution of the Catholic Center party, Hitler's final political opposition, in the months leading up to the signing of the concordat.

* Enthusiastically support Mussolini's war of imperialist agression in Abyssinia.

* Give unwavering support to the fascists in the Spanish Civil War.

* Lobby for a policy of appeasement towards Germany.

* Refuse to speak out against the face of Nazi persecutions of Jews before
the war and during the genocide that followed.

* Support and attempt to legitimize the Vichy Regime in France.

* Contribute to the genocide in the Nazi-installed puppet state of Croatia. Here members of the clergy not only supported a policy of mass murder and the forced conversions of Orthodox Slavs to Catholicism. Many of them personally helped carry out the murders.

* Attempt to transform Hitler's war against the Soviet Union into a kind of Christian crusade.

* Promote a peace agreement in the waning years of the war that would have left much of Germany's territorial aquisitions intact.

* Oppose the Nuremberg trials and lobby for lighter sentences for some of the most notorious war criminals.

* Help fleeing war criminals, including Eichmann and Pavelic, escape justice

This is a history forgotten, covered up, denied. The materials presented here are an attempt to recover some of that lost history.
-----------------

The past still affects the present and digging up the dirt is relevent. What started with the church, then with the nazis, and continues today with the arabs, the vatican and the UN is a cycle that has yet to be broken.

[Dantheman]

The claims made by Teacake in his last post are true, as far as I know. But again, Catholics and Protestant Christians are not one in the same. Protestants never backed Hitler or the extermination of the Jews in WWII.

[Blueprint]

- removed -

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason



They are wrong, they should condemn it and by the way they are not the highest authority on Islam (because there is none, its not an organized religion). On the other hand the Pope IS the christian authority, what he does and says is seen as god sent, how do you explain gods silence when 6Million jews were massacred?And please remain on topic, and stop that finger pointing, because wrong and wrong dont make right.All you have provided here, is excuses for that evil man.I would also like to see your answer some of teacakes posts (which seem very true).

THEY ARE WORNG??????????

AL-AZHAR IS WRONG?????????
DAR EL-EFTA IS WRONG????????/

I REST MY CASE.

YOU ARE SIMPLY, A PROFESSIONAL LIAR.

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra


THEY ARE WORNG??????????

AL-AZHAR IS WRONG?????????
DAR EL-EFTA IS WRONG????????/

I REST MY CASE.

YOU ARE SIMPLY, A PROFESSIONAL LIAR.

Yes they are wrong.Who said that these people are perfect?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason


Yes they are wrong.Who said that these people are perfect?

When you say that All Islamic Oolama from the start of Islam (more than 14 hundered years ago) till now (year 2002) agree on something, and you claim that they are ALL wrong about that SINGLE thing, how do you want us to believe you or take your words for serious?

[IlyaFurman]

Jews are the children of the devil (John 8:44)

so much for the bible, lol

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Ezra
When you say that All Islamic Oolama from the start of Islam (more than 14 hundered years ago) till now (year 2002) agree on something, and you claim that they are ALL wrong about that SINGLE thing, how do you want us to believe you or take your words for serious?

Mr. Reason.. Still waiting for your reply.

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
When you say that All Islamic Oolama from the start of Islam (more than 14 hundered years ago) till now (year 2002) agree on something, and you claim that they are ALL wrong about that SINGLE thing, how do you want us to believe you or take your words for serious?

Do you have something specific or is this just another one of your hypothetical questions?Please give me something specific to answer.

[reason]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Jews are the children of the devil (John 8:44)

so much for the bible, lol

Ezra please answer that, still waiting.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Jews are the children of the devil (John 8:44)

so much for the bible, lol

That's a complete fabrication designed to pit Jews against Christians. John 8:44 doesn't say that. not even close. Jesus was talking to the Pharasees, who were one of the Jewish religious sects at the time. You've obviously gotten your information from an ignorant source. I suggest you read the passeges you quote (in context) before you start hurling false accusations.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
That's a complete fabrication designed to pit Jews against Christians. John 8:44 doesn't say that. not even close. Jesus was talking to the Pharasees, who were one of the Jewish religious sects at the time. You've obviously gotten your information from an ignorant source. I suggest you read the passeges you quote (in context) before you start hurling false accusations.

GLAD YOU SAID THAT, dont you think the same is being done in ISLAM taking texts out of context???

Can you show the real quote please thanks. You have to admit the New testment is anti-semtic.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
Do you have something specific or is this just another one of your hypothetical questions?Please give me something specific to answer.

How about strong Hadith?
How about Had El-reddah (killing any Muslim who wants to be non-Muslim?
Jews killers are martyrs?
Al-Azhar are ignorant?
How about prohibiting what God allowed?

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
GLAD YOU SAID THAT, dont you think the same is being done in ISLAM taking texts out of context???

Can you show the real quote please thanks. You have to admit the New testment is anti-semtic.

I've already explained who Jesus was talking to. The NT is not antisemetic in the least bit. This is simply an attemt by a Muslim to divide the Jews/Christians. That's it. As far as verses being taken out of context in Islam, I'm sure there is. I didn't attack islam, you attacked Christianity.

[IlyaFurman]

words of some al azhar scholars and imams

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:


“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

[reason]

Originally posted by Dantheman
I've already explained who Jesus was talking to. The NT is not antisemetic in the least bit. This is simply an attemt by a Muslim to divide the Jews/Christians. That's it. As far as verses being taken out of context in Islam, I'm sure there is. I didn't attack islam, you attacked Christianity.


I want you to tell us how jesus in the bible (god , jesus and the holyghost)ordered these atrocities. These are some examples.

1)In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
I didn't attack islam, you attacked Christianity.

first of all that quote was meant for ezra, you choose to reply.

another quote from al-azhar

Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt:

“There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle].”

[IlyaFurman]

hey reason keep up your posts, i learn alot.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason
I want you to tell us how jesus in the bible (god , jesus and the holyghost)ordered these atrocities. These are some examples.

1)In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

You need to understand Law vs Grace. OT is law. break the law, suffer the consequenses. the Law was put there to show humanity that no one can live up to Gods standards of perfection. Nt is Grace. Jesus' death on the cross was for the atonement of the sins of the world. He took the penalty of sin upon himself. His resurrection proved He was the Messiah, that He had conquered death, Hell, and sin one and for all. In Mark 7, Jesus in no way told the Jews to kill there disobedient children. Please keep the passeges in context. In Luke 19, He was talking in a parible. If you would read it for yourself, you would know this.

[reason]

Originally posted by Dantheman
You need to understand Law vs Grace. OT is law. break the law, suffer the consequenses. the Law was put there to show humanity that no one can live up to Gods standards of perfection. Nt is Grace. Jesus' death on the cross was for the atonement of the sins of the world. He took the penalty of sin upon himself. His resurrection proved He was the Messiah, that He had conquered death, Hell, and sin one and for all. In Mark 7, Jesus in no way told the Jews to kill there disobedient children. Please keep the passeges in context. In Luke 19, He was talking in a parible. If you would read it for yourself, you would know this.

I apologize if I misunderstood the text, I guess we all do the same mistakes ;).But what about the other verses got any interpretations for them?

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason
I apologize if I misunderstood the text, I guess we all do the same mistakes ;).But what about the other verses got any interpretations for them?

Yes. The NT tells us 'the wages of sin is death'. Justice in OT times was often swift (even brutal). God judged peoples and cililizations for they're rituals and worship of false gods. Today, this seems barbaric, but that is Gods righteous judgement upon sinful mankind. God is still the rightious judge, no matter what we think or believe. Does that help any?

[Mediocrates]

1)In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

Yes of course, the point in context is, can one own slaves who are not heathens and strangers, eg. Jews. The answer clearly is no.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

Yes, utterly but tradition tells us this was not successful. For example Haman (bk of Esther) is described as an Amalekite. In Torah the Amalekites are the absolute abominable worst, nearly symbolic for everything that is corrupting and evil.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

Nowhere in Torah is the Lord described as literally a 'man' of anything. The text is "Hashem Ish milchama". Here is a Chabad explanation:

The commentators have a similar difficulty with a phrase in the Shira (Song at the Sea): "Hashem Ish milchama, Hashem shmo" - G-d is a man of war, G-d is his name. The name of G-d used here is generally understood to denote a personal relationship, mercy, kindness, as opposed to E-lokim which denotes strict justice and severity.

How can the idea of a merciful G-d be reconciled with G-d as a warmongerer? Rashi comments that unlike a human king, G-d can be merciful to those deserving of mercy, and punish those deserving punishment. Soforno has a slightly different take: He comments that punishment of the wicked *is* an act of mercy while at the same time being an act of severity, because removal of the wicked is sometimes necessary for the world to continue.

And here is Rashi

Rashi, interpreting our verse, takes great pains to explain that the phrase "God is a man of war" means that God is the master of war, that is, above war, that God's real campaigns are not with ammunition but rather with the Divine Name. He continues, "'God is His name' -- even when God fights and takes vengeance against enemies, God holds onto the divine qualities, to have compassion on God's creatures, and to sustain all those in the world. This is unlike human kings, who, when dealing in war, turn their complete attention there, and cannot do both (war-making and acts of mercy)."

Rabbi Raphael Gold interprets Rashi's words exquisitely: "God is the master over war, ruling over it, standing over the cruel manifestations of war; while really, even in war time, God is the master of mercy -- HaShem is God's name" (Quoted in Itturei Torah, p. 127, vol. 3).

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

Numbers 31:15-18 covers Moses's displeasure that they spared anyone especially the virgins who tempted the Jews to Midianism which is what caused the war to begin with. Moses then orders that all of the 'polluted' be slain to wreak Gods vengenance upon them. The virgins are spared though since they have not corrupted the Jews.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

Yes of course - read the decalogue. Rules to obey God are at the top of the list. Even Aaron's sons, who studied comparative religions were burst into flames and destroyed.

If you are interested one of the reasons given for the origins of the Ketubah and the Dowry upon marriage is that in Exodus it was the men who melted down gold to form the calf. The women did not. Which is why they were rewarded with their own rights and wealth in a marriage.

[reason]

Thanks for the explanation. I might have interpreted them wrongly.Again my apologizes.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason
But even if they were corrupt people truly the all just wouldnt kill the infants.

To the human perspective, this would seem incredibly morbid and cruel. However, if God commanded it, there is a reason. Who, besides God, would know what these babies would have grown up to be? That argument may not be adiquate, I know, but if we understand rightious judgement (which we vaguely understand), We can sumise that God didn't condemn them (the babies) to eternal punishment. (the 'age of innocents'{an entirely different argument}). He is a righteous God, no matter what we think.

[reason]

Originally posted by Dantheman
To the human perspective, this would seem incredibly morbid and cruel. However, if God commanded it, there is a reason. Who, besides God, would know what these babies would have grown up to be? That argument may not be adiquate, I know, but if we understand rightious judgement (which we vaguely understand), We can sumise that God didn't condemn them (the babies) to eternal punishment. (the 'age of innocents'{an entirely different argument}). He is a righteous God, no matter what we think.


Yeah My bad, I didnt see your previous post.

[reason]

Originally posted by reason
Yeah My bad, I didnt see your previous post.

There are two things that a debate will never end at. Religion and Politics. Because what it comes down to is opinions...no facts just opinions. You cant refute opinions so let this thread end as it is.

The summary of this thread is .There are murderers from every race, culture and creed . We shouldnt define them by any of these we should only describe them as murderers.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
words of some al azhar scholars and imams

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:


“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

HAAAA???????
DEFINITELY LIE.. I'M WILLING TO DARE YOU TO SEND THIS TO DAR EL EFTAA TO BE VERIFIED.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
I want you to tell us how jesus in the bible (god , jesus and the holyghost)ordered these atrocities. These are some examples.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Mention the quotes please. Most likely they are the same old quotes that so called Illy mentioned before.

If you have read these quotes before, would you kindly mention them?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Ezra
How about strong Hadith?
How about Had El-reddah (killing any Muslim who wants to be non-Muslim?
Jews killers are martyrs?
Al-Azhar are ignorant?
How about prohibiting what God allowed?

I'm still waiting Mr. reason

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
HAAAA???????
DEFINITELY LIE.. I'M WILLING TO DARE YOU TO SEND THIS TO DAR EL EFTAA TO BE VERIFIED.

Ill send it tell me where and how to send it. You cant claim its a lie without knowing its the truth?

go here to see some more, they condem attacks on america but agree on the palestian 'struggle'

http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
words of some al azhar scholars and imams

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:


“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

Egypt's Grand Mufti Justifies Palestinian Suicide Attacks
by Michael Freund, Jerusalem Post, August 16, 2002

Link: http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/news/Article-14.html

As for Sheikh Al-Azhar,
E-mail: info@alazhar.org
Or you can contact General Secretary of Academy of Islamic Research on Tel :+202-5926261

I appreciate if you ask him to CC the replying mail to the moderator of this forum as a nuetral person. Meanwhile, I'll also contact them and ask them although I already know the answer! My pleasure!

[Ezra]

Just in case you are feeling lazy to press on the link!

Many Muslim clerics, while condemning the terrorist attacks against civilians in Washington and New York, have defended suicide bombings being staged by Palestinians fighting the Israeli occupation.

At a press conference on Monday, Sheikh Mohamed Sayed Tantawi, the grand imam of Al-Azhar, denounced the attacks on the US, describing them as "acts of terror directed against innocent people."

Tantawi argued that a clear distinction should be made between suicide attacks carried out by Palestinians against the Israeli occupation and those of 11 September in the US.

"There is a very big difference between terrorists and those who defend their land," Tantawi said. "We are in solidarity with the Palestinian people because they are right. As for terrorism, we denounce and combat it because it is a flagrant act of injustice against the human race."


source: http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by Ezra
I guess you are Muslim Mr. Soul, right?

At least when a Jewish attacks my religion (i.e. Christianity), I know that I can discuss it with them without being afraid that he kills me as I feel when I'm talking to Muslims about Jihad!

Nice try anyway!

Your the man! Christian and Judaism may not have a perfect one to one relationship, but what religion does!.

Yet we Christians prosecutioned the Jewish people on simplic, unfound nonsense. 1.) Tsarist Okhrana writings to cover up the corruption and lack of land distribution among the Masses, something that is absolute hogwash and 2.) A excuse to blame the collapse of industrial germany afer WW1, and stiff allies repayments later on under the treaty of versailles. Notice beyond this garabage there is nothing else, no history of aggression from either side, no wide gap in cultural difference, only hatred by us for seeing the small guy as a easily pick on target, because we ourselves have this created problem this or that problems for ourselves and a clear lack of communcation and dialogue.

But a axe welding, Assault rifle carrying, bomb laden Jihad fanatical is entire different, he is insistant on killing you so you cannot make anything except the one excuse of he is trying to kill you and your society and defend yourself or grow hatred to toward him and those like him. And Muslims want to distance themselve from Jihadists and Islamists, but they should'nt bother because there are movements in too many countries to be considered a "fringe" part of Islam. Sorry nice try. There is no BS or simple excuse here, these groups want to destroy your society and your life so hatred flows like water until the situation changes and Islam moves to Christianity and Judaism in reasonablness, sanity, understanding and respect.

[reason]

Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi of Al- Azhar's Islamic Research Academy was quoted as saying that for jihad to be legal it must meet several conditions. Among them: a Muslim should not provoke aggression; should only fight those who fight him; children, women and the elderly should be spared. "There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad,"" he said.

This was what I was saying. Fighting has its rules.

What I dont understand is why dont they publicly condemn suicide attacks in Israel?Suicide attacks in Isreal clearly violate these rules, and kill innocent civilians.So it must be wrong, but why dont they say it?They should send out a clear message "Suicide bombings in Israel are wrong".

This is proof that Al-Azhar and dar-al iftaa are more poltiical than religious.It boggles my mind, that these people are so blind.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by reason
[B]
What I dont understand is why dont they publicly condemn suicide attacks in Israel?Suicide attacks in Isreal clearly violate these rules, and kill innocent civilians.So it must be wrong, but why dont they say it?

They know its wrong, but you forgot the dreaded word EGO, its a bad character of human beings

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi of Al- Azhar's Islamic Research Academy was quoted as saying that for jihad to be legal it must meet several conditions. Among them: a Muslim should not provoke aggression; should only fight those who fight him; children, women and the elderly should be spared. "There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad,"" he said.

This was what I was saying. Fighting has its rules.

What I dont understand is why dont they publicly condemn suicide attacks in Israel?Suicide attacks in Isreal clearly violate these rules, and kill innocent civilians.So it must be wrong, but why dont they say it?They should send out a clear message "Suicide bombings in Israel are wrong".

This is proof that Al-Azhar and dar-al iftaa are more poltiical than religious.It boggles my mind, that these people are so blind.

I'm sure The Mufti will have a very clear answer for you. Go ask him!

And no it doesn't violate these rules. The debate is very straight forward. These are people who took my land (i.e. Israelis). Everyone of them is considered an enemy evolved in taking my land. Children and women shouldn't be killed if you are attacking not defending your land (i.e. Palestinians).

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Ezra
Egypt's Grand Mufti Justifies Palestinian Suicide Attacks
by Michael Freund, Jerusalem Post, August 16, 2002

Link: http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/news/Article-14.html

As for Sheikh Al-Azhar,
E-mail: info@alazhar.org
Or you can contact General Secretary of Academy of Islamic Research on Tel :+202-5926261

I appreciate if you ask him to CC the replying mail to the moderator of this forum as a nuetral person. Meanwhile, I'll also contact them and ask them although I already know the answer! My pleasure!

We are still waiting....

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
We are still waiting....

What do you want me to ask them? Give me the exact question and ill send it to them with a cc of some moderators addy, and give me the moderaters email addy too.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
What do you want me to ask them? Give me the exact question and ill send it to them with a cc of some moderators addy, and give me the moderaters email addy too.

Did the Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque actually called the suicide bombers in Israel killers not Martyrs?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
Did the Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque actually called the suicide bombers in Israel killers not Martyrs?

I know that they some of them actually justify some acts on innocence in Israel, which is kinda strange, but some dont, dont forget how al-azhar was formed, similar to extremist views after the turkish caliphate fell.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
I know that they some of them actually justify some acts on innocence in Israel, which is kinda strange, but some dont, dont forget how al-azhar was formed, similar to extremist views after the turkish caliphate fell.

Ahhhhhhhhh? Nonsense of course. Al-Azhar has always been the symbol of moderate Islam.

Have you sent them the question yet?

[Mr. Pumps]

Has anyone seen this ****?

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

I have'nt seen a website:www.Christians-for-allah.org, but I have'nt checked.

Why not instead: www.traitorsforthedestructionofIsrael.com or www.traitorsforthedestructionofAmerica.com.

Like what the???????.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Has anyone seen this ****?

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

I have'nt seen a website:www.Christians-for-allah.org, but I have'nt checked.

Why not instead: www.traitorsforthedestructionofIsrael.com or www.traitorsforthedestructionofAmerica.com.

Like what the???????.

I already commented on this site before (i.e. http://www.jews-for-allah.org). I also pointed out that if you pressed on the "Arabic" button, you will open a another page in Arabic that guides Muslims on how to convert Jews to Islam. So, it's so funny! The english page talks about peace and Shalom, and the Arabic page guides Muslims to convince the Jews to convert to islam!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra

Have you sent them the question yet?



Originally posted by IlyaFurman
What do you want me to ask them? Give me the exact question and ill send it to them with a cc of some moderators addy, and give me the moderaters email addy too.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Has anyone seen this ****?

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

I have'nt seen a website:www.Christians-for-allah.org, but I have'nt checked.

Why not instead: www.traitorsforthedestructionofIsrael.com or www.traitorsforthedestructionofAmerica.com.

Like what the???????.

how about this http://jewsforjesus.com/

http://www.jewsforjesus.ca/index.htm

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/amongthenations/Jews_For_Jesus.asp

THIS IS FOR EZRA, the site above says this "Underhanded tactics trick unsuspecting Jews into joining a Christian movement." go read it YOURSELF!!!!

And you said that christianity doesnt go around TRICKING PEOPLE and using DEVIOUS WAYS TO CONVERT PEOPLE?

JEWS FOR JESUS?? now ive truly seen it all, lol

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman


Are we playing games Mr. IlyaFurman? Look at post #110. I already told you what to ask them.

Have you done so?

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
how about this http://jewsforjesus.com/

http://www.jewsforjesus.ca/index.htm

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/amongthenations/Jews_For_Jesus.asp

THIS IS FOR EZRA, the site above says this "Underhanded tactics trick unsuspecting Jews into joining a Christian movement." go read it YOURSELF!!!!

And you said that christianity doesnt go around TRICKING PEOPLE and using DEVIOUS WAYS TO CONVERT PEOPLE?

JEWS FOR JESUS?? now ive truly seen it all, lol

J4J has been around for years. How can they be tricking people when the name of their organization says what their agenda is plainly?? How can they deny what their intensions are? They don't. They are very open about it. Try again.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
how about this http://jewsforjesus.com/

http://www.jewsforjesus.ca/index.htm

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/amongthenations/Jews_For_Jesus.asp

THIS IS FOR EZRA, the site above says this "Underhanded tactics trick unsuspecting Jews into joining a Christian movement." go read it YOURSELF!!!!

And you said that christianity doesnt go around TRICKING PEOPLE and using DEVIOUS WAYS TO CONVERT PEOPLE?

JEWS FOR JESUS?? now ive truly seen it all, lol

Where is the underhanded? The mission of site is very straight and clear (regadless of whether you agree with it or not). It doesn't tell you "we can be friends and live together in peace", and in another language it tells you "let's try to convert them"!!!!!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
Are we playing games Mr. IlyaFurman? Look at post #110. I already told you what to ask them.

Have you done so?

ok now give me the moderators email addy, you want me to cc it too.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
J4J has been around for years. How can they be tricking people when the name of their organization says what their agenda is plainly?? How can they deny what their intensions are? They don't. They are very open about it. Try again.

well look at the third link, its a respone to it this is a glimpse of what it says

MEDIA TACTICS
Their missionary campaigns are well-funded and relentless. The Jews for Jesus organization has spent millions of dollars in print and radio advertising, and has run a campaign of banner ads in New York City subways and on major web sites. If you see one of these ads, you should write a letter of protest to the host organization.

It is the responsibility of all Jews to take a stand

GO READ IT YOURSELVES ITS A JEWISH RESPONSE

Let me guess ezra and dantheman are christian??? so they dont see anything wrong with it??? :confused:

[IlyaFurman]

Fundamentalist Christian churches use traditional Jewish symbols to lure vulnerable Jews

the above was take RITE FROM THE SITE THAT IS A RESPONSE TO "JEWS FOR JESUS"

heres the link


http://www.outreachjudaism.org/evangelize1.html


Such congregations are designed to appear Jewish, but they are actually fundamentalist Christian churches which use traditional Jewish symbols to lure the most vulnerable of our Jewish people into their ranks. Messianic "rabbis," many of whom are Jewish by birth, are committed to bringing the Jewish people to know Jesus. Their agenda is to make Christianity more palatable to the uneducated Jew, and to the astonishment and horror of the Jewish community, their marketing ploys are proving to be successful.

THEY above paragraph is from that site also, click the LINK TO READ MORE.

NOW THATS NOT TRICKY AND UNDERHANDED?? GIVE ME A BREAK


go check that site out, its a response to jewsforjesus

[elke]

go check that site out, its a response to jewsforjesus

Yes, and it has the same semi-hysterical quality as some of the rantings about the Muslims, here and elsewhere.

When are we going to realize that religious hysteria is not a helpful attribute to have in this fight?

[Mr. Pumps]

Yeah the Church is a pain in the butt, but I don't have to pray to god over and over for it is my choice, the distinction between state and religion dissappeared ages ago. The church now is a cursed and aimless institution.

I think supermodels are my goddesses and Maxim and FHM is my bible, and if church disagrees with that they can kiss my athiest teet. They don't have any mass or credibility.

The website: www.jews-for-jesus.com means little because the church itself has little influence and meaning on any aspect of society. They are desperate and the leaders of the church know that. The jewish people should ignore it all.

But Islam is a whole different lifestyle, your habits, culture, political outlook change, for individual choice is not allowed. And here is a religion that has been at war with the Jews for fifty years. I guess they want to "convert" Israel out of existence.....that is hilarious.

Which one is worst a website luring you from a worthless, meaningless entity of a institution or another luring you in declaring Jihads and Islamic states if you don't submit to Allah.

[Mr. Pumps]

At least when Priests and Rabbis come together, the suspicion is not great enough that one does 'nt think the other has a sword behind his back. Any non-Islamic Religion and Islam is another story.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Let me guess ezra and dantheman are christian??? so they dont see anything wrong with it??? :confused:


I can't speak for Ezra, but I am a Christian, and I see nothing wrong with it. I know what I believe, so if another faith used 'Christian' symbles to get me to come to their church or form of beliefs I'd see right through it. However, how can you say J4J's tactics are decietful when their name gives away their agenda? How gullible are you?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Dantheman
I can't speak for Ezra, but I am a Christian, and I see nothing wrong with it. I know what I believe, so if another faith used 'Christian' symbles to get me to come to their church or form of beliefs I'd see right through it. However, how can you say J4J's tactics are decietful when their name gives away their agenda? How gullible are you?

I definitely agree.

I don't see anything wrong in trying to convince someone with your religion as long as it's in a direct, honest and straight way. I don't see having an English version talking about peace and love and the Arabic translation talking about converting Jews as direct, honest or straight at all!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
At least when Priests and Rabbis come together, the suspicion is not great enough that one does 'nt think the other has a sword behind his back. Any non-Islamic Religion and Islam is another story.

What can be added! These are golden words.
Well said Mr. Pumps.

[Mr. Pumps]

I keep Christianity at a distance and am rather shocked at the right religious christians in his party.

But in another way, I grudgingly acccept that the Church is there because it has be tethered to our freedoms for a long time and am afraid things would change if left to disappear .Even though things are changing as the Hindu Indians and Chinese open up to freedom.

I don't at all would try to dismember anything that does'nt harm the open-ended republic within the law. Neither christianity nor Judaism has ever threaten the free republic in anyway this century. And other groups are nearly there or starting to be there in freedom.

But the Church has no right to target this group or that group with manipulation just to increase dwindling numbers. Judaism is a ally so in way is such a distorted and manipulative site is called for.

I see Judaism as just as open and free as Western Christianity was. And Israel shows that.

Really Islam is rather the polar bear in the coal shed in a evolving and complex world filled with overwhelmingly different views.

Some people I know are going from a unspoken position to being hardened about Middle Easterns or Muslims in general coming to the U.S or staying in Western nations. That is self-inflicted on their part, because all the conflicts they are involved in and terrorist like Bin Laden does that, like I said no simple BS excuse in this case. If they want to be accepted join the other religions of the world in modernization of ideas and accepting indivdual choice whether people join it or not, other religiopns are in the modern age, why are they?. There is a massive problem if the Saudis have to be shown space photos to be proven the world is NOT flat. Like what the ****???? progression is key here if the Arabs or Muslims want respect they should stop bothering their neighbours and improve their understanding and modern thinking by about 1000% and join everyone else.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
But Islam is a whole different lifestyle, your habits, culture, political outlook change, for individual choice is not allowed. And here is a religion that has been at war with the Jews for fifty years. I guess they want to "convert" Israel out of existence.....that is hilarious.


Muslims these days are not practing Islam that that Mohammed practized, he let jews and christians worship in his towns, and Omar the second Caliph didnt want to pray in the Church in Bethlem cause he said " the muslims in the future might make this an excuse to built a mosque here" so he signed a treaty to never build a mosque at that church.

Islam in its purest form is Democratic belive it or not, and is the best in the "other peoples" rites.

Muslims today are corrupt.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
I definitely agree.

I don't see anything wrong in trying to convince someone with your religion as long as it's in a direct, honest and straight way. I don't see having an English version talking about peace and love and the Arabic translation talking about converting Jews as direct, honest or straight at all!

Such congregations are designed to appear Jewish, but they are actually fundamentalist Christian churches which use traditional Jewish symbols to lure the most vulnerable of our Jewish people into their ranks. Messianic "rabbis," many of whom are Jewish by birth, are committed to bringing the Jewish people to know Jesus. Their agenda is to make Christianity more palatable to the uneducated Jew, and to the astonishment and horror of the Jewish community, their marketing ploys are proving to be successful.

How is this direct honest and straight?

[IlyaFurman]

"Messianic Judaism is Evangelical Christainity proselytizing to the Jews. The founder of Jews for Jesus, a deceptive proselytizing technique, was Martin Rosen, a former Jew who converted to Evangelical Christianity in the mid-1950's. Rosen was ordainded as a Baptist minister in 1957 and was assigned to serve the American Board of Missions (missionaries) to the Jews. In this capacity Rev. Rosen became sensitized to the theological vulnerability of many American Jews. When approaching those who knew little about Jewish belief, Rosen represented himself as an 'authentic Jew', Moishe Rosen. Yet even the most assimilated Jews resisted formal conversion out of Judaism

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/history/histj4j.htm

ALL THESE PEOPLE THAT TRY TO CONVERT PEOPLE USE DECEPTIVE TECHINQUES.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
[B
ALL THESE PEOPLE THAT TRY TO CONVERT PEOPLE USE DECEPTIVE TECHINQUES. [/B]

Hahaha. Get a life! :cool:

Why are you so scared of Christianity? Are you afraid it might be true?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
Hahaha. Get a life! :cool:

Why are you so scared of Christianity? Are you afraid it might be true?

Thanks for your educated response?

If Christianty was true I woudnt be scared of it would I?

PS- I am just trying to show that all RELIGIONS not just CHRISTIANITY, use deceptive methods to gain converts into their religion, thats the TRUTH, everyone knows it.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Thanks for your educated response?

If Christianty was true I woudnt be scared of it would I?

PS- I am just trying to show that all RELIGIONS not just CHRISTIANITY, use deceptive methods to gain converts into their religion, thats the TRUTH, everyone knows it.

No, that's your OPINION, everyone knows it.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
No, that's your OPINION, everyone knows it.

So your saying all christian missionaries use direct, straight, and honest ways to convert people?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Thanks for your educated response?

If Christianty was true I woudnt be scared of it would I?

PS- I am just trying to show that all RELIGIONS not just CHRISTIANITY, use deceptive methods to gain converts into their religion, thats the TRUTH, everyone knows it.

Deceptive way like saying Islam loves Christians and Jews, and back home he calls them bugs/wisps Nest????????????

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
ok now give me the moderators email addy, you want me to cc it too.

You can CC the question to aquest1000@hotmail.com, and ask them to reply-all so that I get the mail as well.

Here is the contact once again:

E-mail: info@alazhar.org
Or you can contact General Secretary of Academy of Islamic Research on Tel :+202-5926261

and here is the question:

Did the Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque actually called the suicide bombers in Israel killers not Martyrs?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
Deceptive way like saying Islam loves Christians and Jews, and back home he calls them bugs/wisps Nest????????????

Maybe he does like people on this board, doesnt mean he hates all christians and jews?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
You can CC the question to aquest1000@hotmail.com, and ask them to reply-all so that I get the mail as well.

Here is the contact once again:

E-mail: info@alazhar.org
Or you can contact General Secretary of Academy of Islamic Research on Tel :+202-5926261

and here is the question:

Did the Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque actually called the suicide bombers in Israel killers not Martyrs?

ezra read post 101, and read what I said, they do think that suicide bombings are legidimate for the palestinian struggle, but they dont justify the 9/11 attacks, so I know the answer already, theres a link there if you want to know why they think this way.



Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Ill send it tell me where and how to send it. You cant claim its a lie without knowing its the truth?

go here to see some more, they condem attacks on america but agree on the palestian 'struggle'

http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

[elke]

Come on, guys. "Fair" or "Dodo" has made many snide and silly comments on this board as well, mostly in his/her former incarnation.

However, again - it is far more productive to focus on actions and political/philosophical concepts than on religion. Why not listen to Reason and Ayesha more? Don't they make far more sense? Also, remember - they need us, and we need them - which is the bedrock of most fruitful relationships politically. Let's focus on building these, rather than splinter apart into whose religion is doing what.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
and read what I said, the do think that suicide bombings are legidimate for the palestinian struggle

IlyaFurman Quote from another thread:

According to Islamic law there are at least six reasons why Bin Laden's barbaric violence cannot fall under the rubric of jihad:

1) Individuals and organizations cannot declare a jihad, only states can;

2) One cannot kill innocent women and children when conducting a jihad;

3) One cannot kill Muslims in a jihad;

4) One cannot fight a jihad against a country in which Muslims can freely practise their religion and proselytize Islam;




According to #2 and #4, your support of the homicide bombers is against the laws of islam. Can you justify your stance on this?

[Mr. Pumps]

Here is what I simply understand Christianity, Judiaism, some Hinduism(I disagree with arrange marriages bit), Buddhism have this century have aligned themselves as a flexible, multiple view point religious where freedom has overwhelming merit and openess for the flow of ideas.

Only the Animalists, Old Shintoists and Islam have been agianst the open-enndedness and expansion. You can't drink any alcohol, you can't eat meat, women must cover up to the brime....like everything it stands for is fixed. Not my cup of tea.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
According to #2 and #4, your support of the homicide bombers is against the laws of islam. Can you justify your stance on this?

I never supported terrorists that kill innocence but some islamic leaders do if you want to see one islamic scholar that supports it, read this

http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Only the Animalists, Old Shintoists and Islam have been agianst the open-enndedness and expansion. You can't drink any alcohol, you can't eat meat, women must cover up to the brime....like everything it stands for is fixed. Not my cup of tea.

They are, but they are not supposed to be, some of my friends follow Islam in a more spritual way, almost like Buddhism, with medation etc, Mohammed himself meditated alot, there are many differnt interpertations of Islam like Militant, Medatation, Searching for Salvation in this Life, Normal.

Dont forget there are more than 1.5 billion muslims, most muslims are not like terrorists, thats for sure, we think it is, cause thats all we see on tv.

Did you know tehre are more terrorist attacks in latin america than anywhere in the world, and most lose of life from terrorism in latin america belive it or not.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
I never supported terrorists that kill innocence but some islamic leaders do if you want to see one islamic scholar that supports it, read this

http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm

Oh. I must have misunderstood. Sorry.

[Mr. Pumps]

I heard the Islamic religion is truely infact pagan in origin and the Crecent moon symbol is actually a symbol used by pagans in the Middle East before Mohammed swept the area and converted everyone to islam.

Is that fact?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
Oh. I must have misunderstood. Sorry.

Dan explain this, this is from the new testament:

Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
I heard the Islamic religion is truely infact pagan in origin and the Crecent moon symbol is actually a symbol used by pagans in the Middle East before Mohammed swept the area and converted everyone to islam.

Is that fact?

Muslims do not believe in worshiping idols or moon Gods. Nor any Muslim believes that the reason why the Crescent is the Muslims' symbol on their flag is because Muhammad (peace be upon him) had cut the moon in half with his sword. That is a fabricated lie about Muhammad and Islam. The reason why the Crescent is the symbol on our flag is because we start our fasting month "Ramadan" when the Crescent appears, and we end that month when the full moon appears after 30 or 31 days of the Crescent's appearance. The Crescent is not a holy symbol. Islam doesn't believe in holy idols or symbols to be worshiped! The only holy thing in this world to Muslims is the Noble Quran, GOD's Revelations and Holy Scripture to us. No person is holy and no image nor idol nor symbol is holy either:

"They ask thee Concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs To mark fixed periods of time In (the affairs of) men, And for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter Your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses Through the proper doors: And fear Allah: That ye may prosper. (The Noble Quran, 2:189)"

Note on Noble Verse 2:189: The English translator wrote "enter Your houses from the back". This is a mistranslation, because in Arabic it says: "taato AL-BOUOTA min thohooriha", which literally means "enter THE HOUSES from the back".

So the Noble Verse should read as:

"They ask thee Concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs To mark fixed periods of time In (the affairs of) men, And for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter the houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses Through the proper doors: And fear Allah: That ye may prosper. (The Noble Quran, 2:189)"

But anyway, as we clearly see in the Noble Verse, moon is nothing but a tool used by the Muslims. It is not GOD Almighty to us, nor do we use it in our worship.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Dan explain this, this is from the new testament:

Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

Sure thing, Ilyafurman. :)

The passage you quoted was at the end of a parable. It is sometimes called the parible of money. If you have the NT handy, begin reading at verse 12.

The meaning of this parible is simple. How will you profit the kingdom of God?

Luke 19:27 is a likeness of what God will say of those who have neglected Him.

Do you need me to go further?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
Sure thing, Ilyafurman. :)

The passage you quoted was at the end of a parable. It is sometimes called the parible of money. If you have the NT handy, begin reading at verse 12.

The meaning of this parible is simple. How will you profit the kingdom of God?

Luke 19:27 is a likeness of what God will say of those who have neglected Him.

Do you need me to go further?

but why slay them in my presence?

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
but why slay them in my presence?

In the context of the parible, had Jesus said something to the affect of ''Depart from me, I never knew you'' or something of that nature (Heavenly things), it would have made no sence at all to those who were listening. He had to use an ''Earthly'' analogy to be understood. ''Slay them'' in this context, is an image of eternal death (separation from God). More?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Dantheman
In the context of the parible, had Jesus said something to the affect of ''Depart from me, I never knew you'' or something of that nature (Heavenly things), it would have made no sence at all to those who were listening. He had to use an ''Earthly'' analogy to be understood. ''Slay them'' in this context, is an image of eternal death (separation from God). More?

If what your saying is true, you can see, even the new testament can be taken out of context and made to fit a persons needs, I have seen so much BS about the torah and talmud its not even funny, they changed it around so much, even with the koran, its all over every site, hate is defnietly not good.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
If what your saying is true, you can see, even the new testament can be taken out of context and made to fit a persons needs, I have seen so much BS about the torah and talmud its not even funny, they changed it around so much, even with the koran, its all over every site, hate is defnietly not good.

Of course it can. ''Moby Dick'' can be taken out of context. I don't think anyone denies that.
And your right, Hate sucks.