Why has the Left turned against the Jews?

[Alfred]

To start out with, I do not know the answer. But I would love to hear theories.

Historically, the Left has been very pro-Israel and pro-Jewish. But of late (what, in the last 4 years??) the Left has turned against both Israel, and to a lesser degree, the Jews; and has turned more pro-Islamic. Witness the Berkeley thread etc.

One guess I have is that Israel is being ruled by "conservatives" and that ideology is playing its hand. Would the Left in this country and in Europe be against Israel and the Jews if Barak or Peres were President?

I don't think one can say that the Left has always been anti-semitic, and that it is just coming out. Something has changed. Is it that the Right supports Israel and therefore the Left must not support it? I don't know.

[David_in_NYC]

The left is dedicated to global socialism (a.k.a. "transnational progressivism", or "tranzism", as some have abbreviated it). It has invested its hopes in the UN eventually becoming a one-world government. Arab nations have better than a 20-1 voice in the UN with respect to the Jews. Thus, the interests of the Arabs and the socialists align with regards to increasing the influence of the UN at the expense of national sovereignty.

I do wonder if the Left was ever really pro-Israel. I am trying, but I am struggling to think of something, anything, that the Left has done that is favorable to Israel. (If someone can help me out here that would be great.)

[Mediocrates]

What a big question. For one, there is no 'left.' There are many lefts. I know a few Israelis living in the US who would be quite happy if all the Jews of YESHA were moved out, the wall put in place and they never had to think about anything Palestinian again.

I know American liberals some of them Jewish who wave the bloody shirt like everyone else demanding that Israel simply give back all the the land they stole. I know a few hardcore types like the French communists here who simply hate the fact that of all the revolutions of the 20th C. Zionism is the only one that succeeded whereas theirs failed. I know activist Catholics who honestly just want whats fair for everyone involved and can't grieve over the violence. And I know people who are just sick of paying attention to it all and figure the easiest laziest thing to do would be to just cave in.

So who do you want to talk about?

[Mira~]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
What a big question. For one, there is no 'left.' There are many lefts. I know a few Israelis living in the US who would be quite happy if all the Jews of YESHA were moved out, the wall put in place and they never had to think about anything Palestinian again.

I know American liberals some of them Jewish who wave the bloody shirt like everyone else demanding that Israel simply give back all the the land they stole. I know a few hardcore types like the French communists here who simply hate the fact that of all the revolutions of the 20th C. Zionism is the only one that succeeded whereas theirs failed. I know activist Catholics who honestly just want whats fair for everyone involved and can't grieve over the violence. And I know people who are just sick of paying attention to it all and figure the easiest laziest thing to do would be to just cave in.

So who do you want to talk about?

That's so true.

[Alfred]

Good points.

How about why have the Left in the Universities turned almost completely to the camp of the Arabs? Especially when a large (per capita) percentage of academia are Jewish?

I accept DavidNYC's point about international socialism...and the requirement that the UN be made all-powerful to achieve Tranzism.

Hmmmmm. Wait a second.

If the socialists of the world revolution want the UN to become all powerful, then they must first neutralize the US. That is being attempted from both within and without. Devisive issues are tearing apart the US and hopefully (for the UN) we will fall apart into anarchy. They cannot stand the US because of what we stand for, our money, our influence and our quasi-morality.

Perhaps Israel presents a similar problem to the UN. And it certainly is a partial stop against Islam. But if you get rid of Israel you embolden Islam.....which hates the West. Perhaps Islam will force the rest of the world to unite (under the UN of course) to defend itself against Islam. Or perhaps they believe that without Israel, the Arabs (with their oil money) will help fund a world government dictated out of the UN.

I am probably speaking in circles. Back to the drawing board.

Whatever the reason, I am convinced the French think they will lead the UN someday:)

[Da Chuckstar]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
What a big question. For one, there is no 'left.' There are many lefts. I know a few Israelis living in the US who would be quite happy if all the Jews of YESHA were moved out, the wall put in place and they never had to think about anything Palestinian again.

I know American liberals some of them Jewish who wave the bloody shirt like everyone else demanding that Israel simply give back all the the land they stole. I know a few hardcore types like the French communists here who simply hate the fact that of all the revolutions of the 20th C. Zionism is the only one that succeeded whereas theirs failed. I know activist Catholics who honestly just want whats fair for everyone involved and can't grieve over the violence. And I know people who are just sick of paying attention to it all and figure the easiest laziest thing to do would be to just cave in.

So who do you want to talk about?

I think that we should focus more on the types who believe that the Jews stole the land from a specific race of people called Palestinians, and that Israel is a colonialist apartheid state. We should also look into why there are Jews who think this way too.

[Mira~]

The Professors are too intellectually lazy to rethink their old colonialist liberation theories, and Israel, although not a classic example of European colonialism, smells and looks enough like a colonialist state to be labeled an “evil oppressor of the native population.” It never occurs to them that roughly the same number of Jews as Palestinians were expelled from the rest of the former Ottoman Empire and that Israel is the only place where those former “Arab Jews” can now live with freedom to openly practice their faith. They don’t want to consider that the situation of population transfer was not unique to this conflict, that around the same time that Israel was created, population exchanges were happening in India and Pakistan, Greece and Turkey and other countries of Europe. The fact that the Jews who ended up in Palestine were refugees fleeing an attempt at their extermination rather than serving the interests of the European motherland is played down. In fact, whenever someone even mentions that if it were not for the holocaust Israel would not have been created, the immediate response is that the holocaust is being used as an excuse to oppress another people. Tell that to the holocaust refugees whose boats were turned around at ports in the UK and the United States. For the Palestinians it was about land but for the Jewish refugees it was about life itself. In any event, they don’t care about that. Almost nobody I have ever discussed the issue with is aware that the early Zionists were invited by King Feisal to settle the land and that the Arabs sold land to the Jews. I could go on and on as I’m sure you know, but the point is that the history of the conflict has been presented in the context of the colonialist model and as we all know colonialism is bad…never mind that the United States was a real colonialist experiment that served the interests of the British and there is no way that any of these “freedom fighters” are about to hand their family’s home over to some Mexican or Native American.

As far as the UN is concerned, there is this mistaken belief that it is a humanitarian organization rather than a debating forum for countries to advance their own political interests. They know the exact number of resolutions the UN has come up with against Israel, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who could tell you anything about how the UN handled the Falklands crisis, Grenada, the Abu Eain Resolution (which basically paved the way for legitimizing terror) or anything else.

You never hear about what has happened in the Sudan or the Congo, Tibet is really quite passé…basically if it is a conflict that involves internecine fighting (African against African, Asian against Asian…) it doesn’t matter even if the murder rate reaches holocaust proportions, it’s just not interesting enough to warrant their attention. That’s why the same professors who lambast Israel now for its treatment of the Palestinians probably didn’t give a rats tail about the Palestinians when the Jordanians were slaughtering them by the thousands.

[abu afak]

Why is this string "In the News" ? ?

This is "US Politics and Elections" (and it's subject mentioned/discussed in several strings I put there) or "Israel-World Relations".

[NewsGuy]

True, although there are many different kinds of Leftists, the Left in general is anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian. There are a few reasons for the Leftist leanings, and I should again repeat that not all Leftists fall into any one particular category.

The Left is a movement that considers itself to want to bestow socialist benefits on those who are less fortunate in the world. The problem, as we know, is that the Left wants to save the world with other people’s money, not their own, and to impose their own definition of who is a victim upon all of society. So instead of giving charity to the poor from their own pockets, the Left legislates an unfair tax burden on those are successful in society (many of whom are Conservatives), and attempts to pass laws to impose the Leftist agenda on all of society. I mention this because I am leading up to the Leftist notion of accountability (or lack thereof, actually).

In the Leftist world, there is no individual accountability. If criminals attack and murder innocent families, the criminals are never to blame. Instead “society” is to blame. If entire sections of America’s big cities are off limits to middle class taxpayers who shoulder most of the municipal tax burden, then it is again “society’s” fault.

For the Left, it’s never a problem that the freedom to walk in one’s own city or to raise one’s family in a violence-free society has been eliminated. Instead, again, “society” is to blame, and criminals are of course entitled to more Constitutional protection than the middle class taxpayer.

The Left is convinced that anyone who is an educational or economic failure is surely a victim of our “unjust” society and the rest of society must bear the burden to compensate the underclass. There is no such concept that perhaps some of those who are less fortunate might be to blame for their own predicament, as they might have been unwilling to put in the hard work required to improve themselves. Nor is there a recognition among the Left that some of the criminals might just be plain evil and too damn lazy to be productive members of society, and instead have chosen to use violence and theft to get what they want.

Against this backdrop comes the Leftist perception of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Left has decided that the Palestinian mass murderers cannot possibly be held accountable for blowing up restaurants and city buses and, instead, like any other mass-murderers, they must be victims. Same thing for radical Islam as a whole, whether in Israel or in the U.S.

For the Left, radical Muslim terrorists are people, too, just like you and me, and therefore, they are entitled to be treated like any other people — and maybe even better. After all, the Islamic terrorists must have legitimate grievances and must be victims, because they murder innocent women and children, they are undereducated, they don’t hold normal jobs, they hate mainstream America, they are anti-Semitic, and they support America’s enemies. All of those characteristics of the Palestinians make up iron-clad proof in the eyes of the Leftists, that the Palestinians are victims and must be compensated at the expense of decent society -- in this case Israel. Hence, the Leftist support for the Palestinian cause.

[merkava16]

.

[abu afak]

Unholy Alliance

By J. Michael Waller
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 20, 2003

The convergence of the radical Left and radical Islam continues. Former icons of social tolerance and sexual liberation are making common cause with the most intolerant and sexist social forces on earth. Left-wing American defenders of Slobodan Milosevic, on trial for his ethnic cleansing campaign to exterminate Muslims from the former Yugoslavia, now welcome U.S. Muslim groups as building blocks in their coalitions. Trendy supporters of revolutionary cop-killers like Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu-Jamal link their heroes’ murderous causes (while proclaiming Peltier and Mumia’s innocence) to those of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the various Islamic Jihad terrorist groups.

On February 15 and 16, they joined forces in the streets of hundreds of cities and towns around the world – literally from Boston to Baghdad – in coordinated protests unseen in size and scope since the Soviet Union ran the nuclear freeze movement two decades ago. Remnants of the old Communist Party USA like Leslie Cagan coordinated protests on one end through her United for Peace and Justice entity; the fanatically pro-North Korean Workers World Party (WWP), via its International Action Center (IAC) and International ANSWER front groups, organized on the other, pausing to wish a happy birthday to Kim Jong-il, who turned 61 over the weekend. Kim’s party paper, Rodong Sinmun, exhorted followers to “burn with hatred and hostility in their hearts” toward the United States.

Some of the nation’s most prominent Muslim groups, or more correctly, a collection of small but vocal groups that claim to speak for American Muslims, joined the protests.

The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), at the state level, endorsed the U.S.-out-of-Iraq demonstrations coast to coast. In Chicago, CAIR endorsed the protests, calling itself “one of the initial endorsers and organizers” for the event. CAIR formally joined the ANSWER coalition in Los Angeles.

Nationally, the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) joined the ANSWER coalition, urging the “community” to take to the streets against President Bush’s efforts to disarm Saddam Hussein and liberate the Iraqi people. In a weird February 11 statement, it asked “Americans” to “defend White House employees” – a reference to a low-ranking White House staffer whom critics say has a pattern of clearing pro-terrorist Muslim American activists into meetings with President Bush and other senior officials.

The American Muslim Council (AMC) didn’t make a public show over the February 15 weekend, but it did join the ANSWER coalition’s January 18 protests that marked the 12th anniversary of the Persian Gulf War, or what AMC referred to as the “war against the people of Iraq.” While the AMC joined others, particularly semi-official voices in the Saudi press, calling on Saddam Hussein to resign, it also embraced ANSWER. On January 15 it circulated an ANSWER flyer on its listserv, exhorting followers via e-mail to march on the White House. AMC national board treasurer Ali Khan led a caravan of Indiana and Chicago activists to the demonstration in Washington.

AMC, like other U.S. Muslim groups that have long coveted legitimacy in official Washington, likes to play things both ways. Click to its website, www.amconline.org, and a ghostly image of Malcolm X flashes for a fraction of a second before a very mainstream-looking, red, white and blue homepage appears. That’s just a symptom of how the AMC operates. Since September 11, 2001, AMC has demanded – and received – the highest-level acceptance in the U.S. government. FBI Director Robert Mueller even spoke at the AMC’s national convention last June 28, with an FBI spokesman calling the AMC “the most mainstream Muslim group in the country.”

The FBI media unit, when pressed, could produce nothing to substantiate the claim, but a visibly uncomfortable Mueller addressed the conference anyway. That appearance, with the FBI publicity unit’s imprimatur, gave the AMC more credibility than ever – even though that very month the organization was haranguing the Bureau for its investigation of domestic Muslim groups.

The AMC calls itself an “active member” of the National Committee to Protect Political Freedom (NCPPF), a William Kunstlerite group founded in the 1960s to provide legal support to terrorists and those who raise money and provide material support for them. Its causes have ranged from members of the Weather Underground to the Maoist Shining Path of Peru, to Abdul Rahman, the Egyptian “Blind Sheik” responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing in New York. NCPPF’s executive director is Kit Gage works full-time as head of the old Stalinist National Lawyers Guild (NLG). Its president is Sami Al-Arian, the University of South Florida professor who reportedly was a founding leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

AMC founder Abdurahman Alamoudi is by his own admission an enthusiastic supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah – the latter being responsible for the 1980s killing of 241 U.S. Marines in the Beirut barracks bombing, and for the car bombing of the American Embassy in Lebanon. Alamoudi recruited young and attractive Muslim political activists and helped them set up spinoff groups to influence mainstream political parties. He provided seed money for one of those groups, the Islamic Institute, which is chaired by his former protégé, Khaled Saffuri.

The AMC likes to say now that the controversial Alamoudi is no longer with the organization and that it condemns all forms of terrorism. But Alamoudi isn’t alone. AMC’s former executive board president, Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, was twice on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list. Under his old name in the 1960s as H. Rap. Brown, he threatened to assassinate Lady Bird Johnson when she was First Lady of the U.S. He’s now a lifer in a Georgia prison for the 2000 murder of Fulton County Sheriff’s Deputy Ricky Kinchen.

AMC’s new leadership is no less extreme. In the week before the FBI director’s speech to the organization, various television talk show hosts including Alan Keyes, then of MSNBC, and Bill O’Reilly of Fox News, tried to get the AMC executive director, Eric Ervan Vickers, to denounce Hamas, Hezbollah, and al Qaeda by name. While denouncing acts of terrorism, Vickers avoided denouncing the terrorist groups themselves.

On June 19, 2002, Linda Vester of Fox News asked Vickers, “Do you condemn al Qaeda by name and condemn Hamas by name?” According to the transcript, Vickers would not. Fox News anchor Brit Hume commented, “All right, so, there you go. And she pressed him further, but that’s as far as she ever got with that.”

Journalist Fred Barnes, on a panel with Hume, illustrated the hypocrisy: “These groups are outraged about what the victims are doing here in the United States. Their big effort is to oppose reasonable steps to protect the United States from further attacks. That's where they aim their fire, not at these terrorists who are doing this in the name of their very own religion.”

The night before Mueller addressed the AMC, guest host Mike Barnicle on CNBC's Hardball asked Vickers to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah. Vickers would not. Barnicle followed, "How about al-Qaeda?" According to the transcript, Vickers' only response was, "They are involved in a resistance movement......"

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6256

J. Michael Waller is vice president of the Center for Security Policy in Washington.

[Boblight]

In an article by Lee Kaplan he states that Saudi-Arabia has donated billions of $$$$ to Campuses and Universities all around the country and world( including UC Berkeley, Harvard) to name a few. Through these Universities Saudis have propagated Anti-Israel propaganda on College Campuses. It is now profitable to be Anti-Israel on Campus.. Time for someone in the White-House to stand up to Saudi propaganda!!! Bob

[Boblight]

Also check out the hatred comming from the Facist right at their Annual meeting in New Orleans this May.. See WWW.Splc.org, Bob

[Mediocrates]

Where is that info?

[wellofvow]

To start out with, I do not know the answer. But I would love to hear theories.

Historically, the Left has been very pro-Israel and pro-Jewish. But of late (what, in the last 4 years??) the Left has turned against both Israel, and to a lesser degree, the Jews; and has turned more pro-Islamic. Witness the Berkeley thread etc.

One guess I have is that Israel is being ruled by "conservatives" and that ideology is playing its hand. Would the Left in this country and in Europe be against Israel and the Jews if Barak or Peres were President?

I don't think one can say that the Left has always been anti-semitic, and that it is just coming out. Something has changed. Is it that the Right supports Israel and therefore the Left must not support it? I don't know.

I will probably be tarred and feathered out of the forum for this, but I really think that it is much, much simpler than anyone has suggested.

The "Left", and especially the media, favor the underdog. That's the "liberal" thing to do. As long as Israel was the underdog ("victim" in LeftSpeak), hey, everyone loved the plucky Jews - who were attacked over and over, and as long as we lost a considerable percentage of a generation, we were great.

Along comes the 1967 war. Israel won big, and it was hard to see it as the underdog. 1973, and it became even harder. Then the Arab propaganda machine got smart, and made Arab terrorists into "guerrilla freedom fighters", even when they killed high school kids at Maalot and sportsmen at the Olympics. Hey, freedom fighters can't be BAD, can they????

I think it's just that simple. Why? Because the media and the so-called liberals are bone-lazy and, well, stupid.

Alfred, did you mean if Barak or Peres were President of the United States or President of Israel? The President of Israel has no real power. Did you mean Prime Minister? Hey, both were, and everyone still hated us.

Anyhow, that's my theory.

[Gilgamesh]

Good points.

How about why have the Left in the Universities turned almost completely to the camp of the Arabs? Especially when a large (per capita) percentage of academia are Jewish? They get saudi money, and they some how decide who will join their ranks and who won't. Also, they need attention to make progress instead of doing actual academic work (like publishing scientific articles and write books, which is VERY hard to anyone). The rest is peer pressure and fasion. If you break the ranks, you considered wried, counter revolutionary and layed off. Simple. Capitalism at its worst, when there is no proper goverment and consumer control.

If the socialists of the world revolution want the UN to become all powerful, then they must first neutralize the US. That is being attempted from both within and without. Devisive issues are tearing apart the US and hopefully (for the UN) we will fall apart into anarchy. They cannot stand the US because of what we stand for, our money, our influence and our quasi-morality. Wasn't it always? Read Ayn Rand! (She was Jewish too, btw. ).

Perhaps Israel presents a similar problem to the UN. And it certainly is a partial stop against Islam. But if you get rid of Israel you embolden Islam.....which hates the West. Perhaps Islam will force the rest of the world to unite (under the UN of course) to defend itself against Islam. Or perhaps they believe that without Israel, the Arabs (with their oil money) will help fund a world government dictated out of the UN.

I am probably speaking in circles. Back to the drawing board. There are several ideas born in Marxism that the post modern left adopted.
1. National defenitions are false. We are all one and the same human race (social class). When you hurt somebody you hurt your self, like one hand hiting the other hand. (here comes the global goverment thingi).
2. Religion is addictive drug used to controll mindless mob.
3. Indevidualism is immoral, it self worship and anti social and plain "show off". One can not realy do alone by himself.
4. Matrial possetions are false idoles.
5. Having money or wanting money is greed.
6. In radical forms: Industrialization is bad. (enslaving others, making few rich and destroying the enviorment).

Well, the above was in a nut shell.

The modern left, was born from Jewish philosophy. There is no doubt to it. The pre-communists were jewish Rabbies (later became pre-Zionists, like Moshe Kalisher, if i'm not mistaken). Marxism, are modern phrases of Jewish ideas taken to the extrem and perverted totally, among other things, thanks to a huge over dose of self hate. (by Karl Marx).

Most leftist who are not that radical, hold similar opinions only in different miled doses, and in different combinations.

Jews, by defenition of our culture, look for social justice. When society is built around tyrents and their capitalist crownies, like Europe before WWI, or robber barons in America, and racial discrimination and immigrant exploitation, jews were on the left. As the left gone radical (some of it, of course) Jews remined on their same leftist spot, it's the world around the moved. So now, we come to strengthening the right. It'll be like that, till the pendelum will be blanced on the middle. The Maimonidas golden path. And there where most Jews are standing, all the time, while the world goes crazy as always.

[abu afak]

New poster Eugeeenie seems ro have an interest in this topic and now common phenomenon.. so I bumped it up with a fresh article.

Anti-Israel chic consumes S.F.'s once-friendly left wing

BY EARL RAAB


A half-century ago, the Jews of San Francisco felt much more secure from the slings of anti-Semitism than Jews elsewhere in the country, according to a Commentary article of mine at the time. The conditions leading to that sense of security are even more pronounced today: the virtual absence of discrimination in employment, housing, civic or political life. Just check the number of Jews elected to public office -- including the U.S. Senate -- without causing eyebrows to rise. But despite the absence of those marks of hostility, there is today a palpable sense of uneasiness among Jews in this area that was not present 50 years ago -- or even 10 years ago.

The reason for this new uneasiness is, if course, the heightened drumming of anti-Israelism. Most disturbing, this is happening within a portion of the same liberal circles that were actively at our side in the fight against anti-Semitism and other bigotry.
Liberal college professors and leaders of churches, labor unions, ethnic and racial groups, civic life were all prominent in the anti-Nazi rallies we held during the period in which a remnant band of the Nazi Bund was roaming the streets of San Francisco. They were at our side in all activities against anti-Semitism.

Anti-Semitism was anathema to them -- and they all say that it still is. But among them, a significant sector has taken up an "anti-Israel chic" that singles out that nation for the most absurd and double-standard charges: Israel is the imperialist power oppressing the indigenous Palestinians; it is Israel that blocks peace; the suicide bombers are regrettable but understandable and "martyrs," while the Israelis defending against such action are "murderers."

As an example, a Jewish professor at Bard named Joel Kovel wrote this simplistic distortion in a recent issue of the Jewish magazine Tikkun: "There should be no doubt that those [the Israelis] who have dispossessed others and illegally occupy their national lands, have to bear primary responsibility." This anti-Israel chic has been taken up by some other Jews, professors, media pundits and self-defined "progressives" such as the Rainbow grocery, which wanted to boycott Israel for human rights violations -- but not Iraq or Syria!

Most of the anti-Semites of the right wing still hate Israel as a Jewish nation, although they hate Arabs as well. But that's a different battle still to be waged, as is that against most of the Arab students here. More frustrating is the sector on the left that has been absorbed by anti-Israel chic. That sector may be a minority of the liberal population, but it is particularly vocal and influential because it has a special impact on the media and on college campuses. It is also so disturbing in this area because it is a larger sector than it is anywhere else. And it is so frustrating because it is the same sector that helped San Francisco stand out in the fight against anti-Semitism.

How can we respond to this influential anti-Israel chic among our former friends? The operative question to them is: What do you want Israel to do? They say, for example: Israel should get rid of most of its settlements, give up land for peace, give more aid to the Palestinians, allow the establishment of a Palestinian state, get rid of its "war-mongering" leaders and be less harsh toward its antagonists.

Well, except for the last two items, weekly surveys show that the majority of Israelis agree with them. But these Israelis need some firm assurance that if they give up most settlements and much land for peace, they will get peace. The indications are contrary. When Israel withdrew from Lebanon, when Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered everything but the kitchen stove, the terrorists proclaimed victory and redoubled their efforts. They control the Palestinian population,
and their purpose seems clear enough: the dismantling of Israel, the subjugation of Israeli Jews, at best. That is why the Israelis need firm measures against terrorism, and they are going to re-elect Ariel Sharon, who also says he is still willing to negotiate.

So, in the face of all that, what do those of the anti-Israel chic want Israel to do? Faced with this question and the facts, the more reasonable among them might falter. Presumably, this lot does not want Israelis to commit mass suicide.
But most of them probably will not falter because chic is never a rational posture, and in this case it is tied up with other knee-jerk postures, such as anti-Americanism. So, although we continue to ask the question, we have to concentrate on keeping the mainstream from being infected. We can succeed in doing that, but the San Francisco area will not be as benign for the Jews as it was 50 years ago.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk021213/comm2.shtml


The writer is director emeritus of Brandeis University's Nathan Perlmutter Institute for Jewish Advocacy. He is executive director emeritus of the S.F.-based Jewish Community Relations Council.

[Mediocrates]

Of course Sharon will be gone in a year or two and it's doubtful that Likud can maintain their coalition. When that happens and a 'softer-friendlier' Labor coalition takes the reins and still nothing happens who will these self annointed human shields blame? I think that's what people have to watch for.

At this point most of the world believes that Sharon, without ever having any of the actual facts, is the most evil leader in the world. Not much we can do about that or the target it forms for all the heaping abuse they chose to throw at Israel. And all of their running scared half apologists can scurry and say "But of course criticism sometimes harsh criticism is a legitimate PoV - it's merely the policies of the government they chose to excoriate..." and so on. But the real acid test will be when someone from Labor, someone the racist radical left takes to their own bosom as their own PM their own best hearts' desire to lead the horribly misguided Israelis to the path of peace (yadda yadda, fill in the blanks you know what it says...)

And they discover that nothing improves. The PLO is still killing Jews and one another. Hamas rules Gaza with an iron hand only Pablo Escobar could be proud of. The Palestinian people sink further into squalor and Arafat if he's still sitting on throne still refuses anything less than every Israeli Jew dead and in the ground.....who will these San Fran radicals blame?

I'll tell you who. They will blame ALL Jews, everywhere. It's they only place insane radical nonsense like theirs leads. Rest assured that the day Sharon leaves office antisemitism will increase not decrease. Overt acts in Europe will mushroon not go away. Without their magic boogeyman, the rads have nothing to hide behind and their latent genocidal politically correct antisemitism will shine through.

[Alfred]

Maybe these radical leftist Jews think they have progressed beyond mere "jewishness." Maybe they believe they have evolved to a higher state where the need for a Jewish State is a token of the past... a token of some religious requirement that is no longer in their mindset. Israel, then becomes an embarassment to their higher intellectualness as a sign of a dogmatic religious past they are trying to bury.

Either that or they like attending Liberal parties and they won't get invited unless they bash Israel. :)

[Mediocrates]

That's not as farfetched as it seems. The notion of a 'binational' state, a place called Canaan from the sea to the river made up of whomever lives there be they Jew or Palestinian Arab came from the Liberal left not the Arabs.

[Elisheba]

The Left turned against the Jews when the Jews began fighting for our own causes. They loved us when we died for the (African-American) civil rights movement and when we fought for every cause but our own. The Left likes nothing more than a self-hating Jew.

When I realized that, I turned against the Left.

[abu afak]

Maybe these radical leftist Jews think they have progressed beyond mere "jewishness." Maybe they believe they have evolved to a higher state where the need for a Jewish State is a token of the past... a token of some religious requirement that is no longer in their mindset. Israel, then becomes an embarassment to their higher intellectualness as a sign of a dogmatic religious past they are trying to bury.

Either that or they like attending Liberal parties and they won't get invited unless they bash Israel. :)
That's not as farfetched as it seems. The notion of a 'binational' state, a place called Canaan from the sea to the river made up of whomever lives there be they Jew or Palestinian Arab came from the Liberal left not the Arabs.


I agree with medio.. that is NOT as farfetched as it seems.

The Victim pschology/morality is unquestioned... and the Left loves perceived underdogs .. no matter how big and Vicious that dog really is.
As I said in response to Bob light in regards DavidHoward

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=6260&page=2&pp=15

just such a Jewish poster on the beliefnet board: (see the bold especially)

[QUOTE=abu afak](for others who don't know the board.. some here do.. the below post is in reference to Beliefnet's Israel-Arab board http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/discussion_list.asp?boardID=21321 )

I believe he is Jewish.... He seems to have a knowledge of Hebrew and the Religion.
There are Jewish leftists.. and then there are the FAR Leftists who hate, increasingly, Israel and Jews... and then there's a few even further Left than that.. DH etc.

He is also a Jew Baiter of the First Magnitude... He goads on the Jews (and the non-Jewish anti-semites) in the most Inflammatory way, calling Israel, it's leaders, and the Jews in it.. 'Nazis'.. in a few more words than just saying 'Nazi' but 'Nazi' all the same.... "a 37 Year Holocuast against the Palestinians".. "apartheid/segregated Israel" Headlines like "Gassing Palestinians", "Extermination", "Murdered Children", "Butcher Sharon"...an article broken into 5 Separate headlines; Quoting Hass, Levy, and more recently al-Jazeera (& 'Arab News' but withheld the link from the board). .. and too many other grotesque lies and and defamations to count.
And Those morsels were just in the few days I was there!
The Jew Haters on Stormfront Chat are much more restrained than he.


When the more classic anti-semites come along and parrot the identical thing he says.. he scolds them.,. but only because THEY are so clumsy to use the word 'Jew' (instead of "zionist' or 'Israeli')..meaning that would even include Jews who hate other 'good' [anti-]Jews like him!..
(as if they would spare him in the Next Pogrom)

He says he is in favor of a '2 state solution'.. This is also a Lie though he repeats it tokenly and periodically.
(He would prefer Israel in "Nevada" ...Unquote... is closer to the truth)

Israel's Existence and everything it does is an affront to him and he says so.
He is in Favor of Israel/the state, like Bullfighters are in favor of bulls... to be out in a ring and abused, and finally rendered helpless .. to be slaughtered 'honorably'/the defenseless Holocaust Jew. (as opposed to the ignoble existense he says it has always had/has)

He is regulary quoted by the Anti-Israelers/semites there.
Used and quoted just as Amira Hass/Gideon Levy are by Him and the crowd at 'Jewwatch' and wherever else anti-semites need cover...
ie from yersterday.. but many more examples available:...

[Eugeenie]

I agree with many folks here, but also see it as a numbers game that is being facilitated by the internet, our declining school system, and people's need for conformity.

With 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, there are 1.2 billion people already predisposed towards favoring fellow Muslims. The numbers of Arabs, likewise, and with an even greater degree of predisposition. This is not an inditement, really, but just an acknowlegement of basic human nature. We form spheres of loyalty and base our trust of information based upon these spheres. Now, Muslims and Arabs have had an explosion in terms of influence upon western culture in recent years due to their explosive birth rates, their emigration to Europe and the advent of the internet which has facilitated the spread of their message -- a message that is naturally more loyal to the Arab Palestinians.

Arab propagandists have created a message carefully selected to appeal to the left (defined however we may wish). Israelis are portrayed as western imperialists, Palestinians as "indiginous peoples". Terms like "apatheid", "ethnic clensing", and any of a number of other terms are selected in order to elicit an emotional response geared towards (as folks have pointed out) a sense of protecting the underdog. Heck, the entire 20th century creation of a Palestinian people is part of this engineering, as the dynamic is changed from Israel vrs. Arabs to Israel vrs. Palestinians.

I would venture to guess that most of this current trend is coming from younger people. It is always easier to change history for those who have not lived through it, and the internet today has become the history classroom for so many people. Problem is, few of those who go searching the net ever consider the source -- ever apply any critical thinking to the subject matter since they do not have the necessary skills-- and since they run into far more rabidly pro-Palestinian sites due to the enormous difference in numbers, their reality is shaped accordingly. They want to be a good lefty, conforming to what a good lefty should conform to, and they seldom if ever question whether there is any consistancy to the values they purport to uphold. Watching some people defend honor killings, oppression of women, and suicide bombings, for instance, can border upon the absurd.


It's odd that I have long been a life-long lefty, and find myself becoming increasingly disgusted with this element within the left.

[Elisheba]

Eugeenie, it is true that the pro-Arab propaganda machine outspends us by a great deal, but I believe there is a great deal of truth in the 'naturally rebellious' youth (ignorant of history) who see the palestinians as an oppressed people. Who would be the oppressors? Israelis. What does that touch? The scapegoat for all times: Jews.

Listen, my family was targeted by HUAC, my Dad a life-long union organizer and my Mom a social worker ... home filled with all colors, ethnicities, Jews and Gentiles: all very Left. My religion was left-wing politics.

Then came the paradigm shift: we Jews, especially those who are not ashamed of being Jews and who definitely support Israel, are now the enemy of BOTH the left and the right.

You have become 'increasingly disgusted with this element within the left'???? Give it time: you will come to grips with the fact that Jews (sometimes cloaked in terms of being pro-Israel, sometimes not) are not welcome by the so-called left anymore UNLESS you are a Jew like the ones who are active in groups such as A.N.S.W.E.R. Frankly, it's heartbreaking ...

Are you aware that at nearly every demonstration, no matter its purpose, you will find a whole lot of people holding signs with swastikas superimposed over the Star of David? Again, it's heartbreaking ...

[redcake]

Gilgamesh's post above about Marxism is right on, and incredibly pertinant. The root of our problem here is the concept of power, elitism, class structure, and nationalism that students are brainwashed with. It also provides the tools for the pro-palestinian jet set to attacks Israel, and Jews... even scarier, to justify signaling out Jews in general, attempting to discredit the idea that Jews are a nation with semetic origins, and a 5000 year old history. In order to pull this off they have to put into question everything that makes Jewish heritage unique to Jews. They would never apply their logic to Native Americans, or certain African tribes, now would they ?

How is this happening? Well, look at works like Edward Said's Orientalism, and other theorist texts which impose the logic that history is never firm, facts are never black and white, that the truth is always up for debate, to validate a thought process that equates fiction, history, and mythology as one. Funny how you'll never hear anyone from the Left deny the existance of Slavery or Black civil rights issues.... but it's considered healthy to encourage the questioning of the Holocaust. So to answer the question, it's a perversion of already perverted Marxist concepts, applied through theoretical studies meant to promote critical thinking ... the students of the left's academy learn to avoid logic, sense, and morality for the sake of "compassion", and " revolution". They're so caught up in a dream that they're happy to join any unifying cause. That most are middle class, and from non-religious Jewish homes draws obvious conclusions.

As a side note, I grew up in San Francisco, and it's no shock to me why antisemetism runs rampant there. Acts targeting Jews, such as desecrated tombstones don't even make the news there. I can remember going to my Conservative Temple, on High Holidays and seeing the JDL with guns driving past on a flatbed truck while undercover cops looked for pipe bombs in the back alley. That Temple has a Rabbi who teaches Buddhist-Judaism, and a board of directors full of converts who refused Bar Mitzvas to kids on a pick and chose politics basis. Your choices for services out there are dominated by liberal Renewal and Reconstructionist services that are bordering on not even being Judaism at all. When Rabbis and Cantors retired or passed away they didn't have a new generation waiting in the wings who they trained...so instead San Francisco got Cantors who shake tambourines, and sing songs about clowns on Yom Kippur. I'm not exagerrating in the least! So there you have it... Jewish identity has been corrupted, probably beyond repair in the city where the Left are at their most rapid.

I doubt I've done well to articulate my point, but I think this is the key issue to our own survival. I really do.

[Gilgamesh]

So there you have it... Jewish identity has been corrupted, probably beyond repair in the city where the Left are at their most rapid.

I doubt I've done well to articulate my point, but I think this is the key issue to our own survival. I really do.

You made your point perfectly, although you descripition has no news for me.

Jewish traditions and survival is gaurenteed as long as there are people who read our anciant texts and attempt to understand them. The rest, is irrelevent transitory and has no long term affect.

The experimitation of Jewish traditions reached a limit, a border with Chrisitanity. Jews will grow sick of it, in the next generation. How else you can "rebel" against older generations by being more "reconstructionist, post modern and experimenal" ? Jews re discovering thier roots and identity. Jewish Orthodoxy moving little by little out side of it's shell and produces a true spiritual alternative to the Hippie culture, only they have true contanct with the legacy and harritage of the Jewish people.

As for assimilant Jews and converts, who understand Judaism as an extrem protestant - Unitarian Christian church... well, however funney or scary it may seem, it a natural process, already happened many times over in Jewish history.

The whole Rabbnical philosophy was heavily influanced by Greek philosophy and methods, either by adopting or confronting it. This is a greatness of Judaims, our ability to adjust and evolve by ideological darvinism, producing many schools and ideas only few survive the ages.

Remeber G-d promise to Avraham. More then one race, nation, civilization would come out of him. Avrahams extended family keeps on growing infornt of your very eyes.

[KettleWhistle]

Why has the Left turned against the Jews?A pretty loaded question... Well here's my theory:

The "left" in the U.S. is traditionally the movement of the discriminated, poor, and disadvantaged. The Jews in the U.S. haven't been that since the seventies. So the extreme left often sees the Jews as the opressors of disadvantaged. Just think of the attitudes of many regarding the entertainment industry if you need an example.

In regards to Israel, it is the same issue. When Rabin shook hands with Arafat, he gave legitimacy to the terrorists. He, literally single-handedly, created moral equivalency between Arab terrorism and the Israeli self-defense. In the minds of the extreme leftists, this indeed created the image of the "Palestinian" Arabs as "freedom fighters" againt the well-trained and well-equipped Israelis. Add to that the underdog appeal and the poverty of these Arabs, and there you have it.

An important point to make here, is that the Israeli right and left are nothing like their respective American coutnerparts. In Israel, the issue is mostly about the approach to a settling the conflict with Arabs. The two sides are almost identical on the other issues. In the U.S., concervatives are mostly social concervatives, and the liberals are social liberals. Their stance on other issues stems from these positions.

[Alfred]

Then came the paradigm shift: we Jews, especially those who are not ashamed of being Jews and who definitely support Israel, are now the enemy of BOTH the left and the right.

..


Outside of a couple of thousand skinheads; the only reason the Jews are the enemy of the Right is because they are in general VERY prominent Leftists. Otherwise most Righties do not have a problem with Jews (as a religious cultural group), and in fact are Israel's biggest supporters.

It's that Leftist disease that we detest.

And lest some protest about my assertion that Jews are very prominent Leftists....I give you our own Elisheba, who picked at random, admits to having a Social Services Mom and a Labor Union organizer Dad, and a house full of Lefties.

:)

But hopefully that will turn around some day.

[redcake]

Jews will grow sick of it, in the next generation. How else you can "rebel" against older generations by being more "reconstructionist, post modern and experimenal" ?

That's a great thought! Though I do fear we'll have to go through a period where Judaic cult spin offs like the Kabbahlist become the norm for a while. The Jewish Conservative movement is dead in places such as California where it thrived the most, so who will be left to pass down the tradition of chanting? If I could find a Cantor that didn't sound like Joan Baez I'd be really happy!


Alfred: "Otherwise most Righties do not have a problem with Jews"

That really is a recent thing Alfred. Since as you say, a good number of Jewish households lean to the Left, the Right usually stood in opposition to Jews. Christian fundamentalism has only recently embraced the concept of Zionism into their own beliefs. I think this is more a case of you projecting your own political stance on the situation rather then any commentary on what the reality has been. Leftists Jews were great supporters of the Zionist movement... the question is how did Zionism turn into the number one enemy of the Left? It's not simply a partisan issue. When a Leftist defends oppresive dictatorships over a socialist democracy made up of exiles you know it's not about ideaologies either.

[Canajew]

To start out with, I do not know the answer. But I would love to hear theories.

Historically, the Left has been very pro-Israel and pro-Jewish. But of late (what, in the last 4 years??) the Left has turned against both Israel, and to a lesser degree, the Jews; and has turned more pro-Islamic. Witness the Berkeley thread etc.

One guess I have is that Israel is being ruled by "conservatives" and that ideology is playing its hand. Would the Left in this country and in Europe be against Israel and the Jews if Barak or Peres were President?

I don't think one can say that the Left has always been anti-semitic, and that it is just coming out. Something has changed. Is it that the Right supports Israel and therefore the Left must not support it? I don't know.
essentially, I think it boils down to a perception of vitimization. Minority groups are, in general, perceived to be disadvantaged, and this draws support from the left. Discrimination against blacks, against women, against aboriginal peoples has been a catalyst for leftist support of these groups and to support things such as affirmative action. Jews used to be in this group, and so the left generally supported Jews.

However, this seems to have changed. you would say the past few years, but I think it has been a gradual change over decades, probably starting in the 1970s. Jews are no longer viewed as being one of the disadvantaged "us" but rather one of the advantaged, white "them".

Combine this with the fact that the Palestinians identified this and played the victimization card to a T, latching on their own definitions of identity with the disadvantaged, oppressed minority that the left is so quick to support, and you end up with a complete reversal. Rather than a situation where the victimized Jews are being denied a right to live in freedom after centuries of oppression in a tiny strip of land surrounded by the majority arab masses, the left altered its world-view such that this band of strong, powerful white (note how the PAlestinains and the left always portray israelis as being Ashkenazi) colonialists are oppressing and exploiting a bunch of poor, weak powerless Palestinians (who are now given a distinct identity apart from the wider arab world even though historically they were not).

The left penalizes success. if the Jews are successful, and, indeed, more successful than the average American, then they could not possibly be an oppressed minority and must therefore not be as worthy of protection and support as poor and disenfranchised minorities, given the left tends to assume that any said poverty or disenfranchisement is due to "the man" - the white male dominated economic system which exploits the proles and minorities and ignores the "feminist economics" and global welfarte considerations which are so prominent in leftist discourse.

To be sure the govenrnance of Israel affects the left. Relations between The US and Canada, for example, peak and wane based on whether ideologically similar parties and leaders are in power, and I would expect this to hold all over the world.

But the anti-globalization pro-oppressed "social justice" focused new left is concerned with minorities that are victims. Jews lost the victim status due to their success in the world community and Israel lost it due to its being as successful as it has been at staving off destruction and liquidation. Meanwhile, the Palestinaisn have been embraced notwithstanding that their society generally stands for things that are considered absolutely abhorent by the leftist community, in that it is illiberal, not at all progressive, oppressive of women, hostile to minorities, and very violent in its dealings. But they seem to abhore "the man", being in this case American globalization/imperialism and all that brings more, and so they side with the oppressed masses, notwithstanding that the oppressed masses would severely restrict their liberties, if they had the chance, while the Jews in Isarel are demonized and dehumanized as an extension of "the man".

[Elisheba]

And lest some protest about my assertion that Jews are very prominent Leftists....I give you our own Elisheba, who picked at random, admits to having a Social Services Mom and a Labor Union organizer Dad, and a house full of Lefties.

:)

But hopefully that will turn around some day.


Sorry you feel that way.

Israel started as a socialist country, you know.

I am VERY proud of the organizing my father did; unions were necessary: do you remember The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire?

I am also proud of a mother whose career was devoted to the developmentally disabled.

You have a heart of stone and probably wouldn't know tzedakah if it bit you in the arse.

[Mediocrates]

The question I'd ask them is if Jesus were alive today do you think he'd support the creation of a religion which appears to stand for little more than the criminalization of abortion and gay marriage?

[Elisheba]

The question I'd ask them is if Jesus were alive today do you think he'd support the creation of a religion which appears to stand for little more than the criminalization of abortion and gay marriage?

This thread has been about the Left (basically atheist?) and Jews.

Would you please be so kind as to post just which group you want your question posed?

Thank you.

[Alfred]

The question I'd ask them is if Jesus were alive today do you think he'd support the creation of a religion which appears to stand for little more than the criminalization of abortion and gay marriage?


Well perhaps that is all that you believe Christianity stands for. We Christians think differently of course. As a Liberal New York Jew who has moved to the Bible Belt you perhaps have a view of Christianity that is slightly distorted by the reception a Liberal New York Jew receives when he moves to the Bible Belt. Probably similar to the reception a Conservative Christian would get if he moved to certain parts of New York City.

If Jesus were alive today he would curse his own people for: 1) turning God into a meaningless debating issue, 2) embracing a political theology that murders unborn children, celebrates anything that is anti-God, and uplifts anything perverted; and 3) because they have almost completely turned away from their roots. But no, I do not know what kind of car he would drive.


On another note:

Christians support Israel for several reasons; none however, due to the warm relations between American Christians (Right) and American Jews (Left). We support Israel a bit because they are underdogs...and a bit because they live in the land of the Prophets...and a bit because they have restored what needs to be restored before the Messiah returns. Oh, and of late, because most of us have a recent dislike for things Muslim and we enjoy Israel kicking butt when they find the nerve to kick butt.

And I do not have a heart of stone. I have personally raised an Autistic child. I merely kept your sentence whole when talking about the career and social life you described of your parents. The relevant part of my quote was "Union Leader and house full of Lefties". I meant no insult, merely agreeing with you.

That really is a recent thing Alfred. Since as you say, a good number of Jewish households lean to the Left, the Right usually stood in opposition to Jews. Christian fundamentalism has only recently embraced the concept of Zionism into their own beliefs. I think this is more a case of you projecting your own political stance on the situation rather then any commentary on what the reality has been.

I would disagree. I have been a conservative Christian since at least 1967, and have always supported Israel. I also believe the Christian community in 1948 was highly in favor of the creation of Israel. Remember, it was a Lefty FDR who did not allow Jewish refugees to arrive from Germany during the 1930's. I think American Christians have (lucky for Israel) been able to isolate their feelings for Israel from their feelings about the American Jewish Left. McCarthy went after Communists.....which a high proportion happened to be Jewish...but I don't think he went after Jews per se. That would have been tough to do politically, after the Holocaust.


Essentially, I think it boils down to a perception of vitimization. Minority groups are, in general, perceived to be disadvantaged, and this draws support from the left. Discrimination against blacks, against women, against aboriginal peoples has been a catalyst for leftist support of these groups and to support things such as affirmative action. Jews used to be in this group, and so the left generally supported Jews.


I agree with you. The Jews of the world legitimately played the victim card very well after the Holocaust. They still do in Hollywood with a Holocaust movie every other month. The difference is that the Jews are no longer legitimate victims in the mind of most. In fact, the Jews of the world are back to their pre-war influence and success in the Christian Western democracies. The Left then, if I understand your point, have found a new victim class to support. The reaction from Europe is: "why are the Jews complaining and still bringing up the Holocaust when they are commiting a Holocaust today in Palestine...etc. etc." Every attempt by Israel to point out that it is Israel who is suffering is countered by the fact that the Jews are no longer the victim de jour of the Left. Very interesting.

What I don't understand is that the Arab "victims" hate the Left. They hate Hollywood and many policies espoused by the Left (abortion, homosexuality, anti-religion etc.). So why do the Left love the Arabs so much? The Arabs would sooner cut the throat of every Lefty in America....especially those that pollute the Arab airwaves with anti-God movies. Why would the Left embrace those who would kill them at a drop of the hat?

I think I know why. Because the most dangerous enemy of Christianity in their minds is Islam. Maybe the Left thinks of Christianity as the ultimate enemy and that it is better to lie with the enemy for a short while to destroy the ultimate enemy. You can see it more and more, where Islam has more rights in America than does Christianity. I may be reaching a bit however. I will have to think about this more.

[Mediocrates]

All the time I hear about 'those' Jews and 'those' Liberals like its some kind of secret club where everyone is sworn to secrecy or like that. Yet these 'family values' types like to hide behind Jesus as if they get a special stamp like a kashrut symbol about how God personally stands behind their point of view. I just want to know if they think that St. Paul would form a church based on the kind of disgust, intolerance and hate his followers espouse.

For 150 years Jews have been associated with socialist causes and in the last 25 excoriated for them. But it's a little like criticising upper middle class black people for supporting civil rights even though they don't stand to personally benefit from them. I was brought up if not to welcome and weep for those less fortunate, at least appreciate that they are less fortunate and that we as a community have a shared responsibility in it. I can't imagine that my Christian friends would throw all the people in their own church out fo the lifeboat, do they? But we're lead to believe that if you cast the net just a little bit wider than that you're somehow a dangerous maniac.

The left has turned against the Jews because the left has become a mockery of itself. It has no focus, no cause, no goals other than making noise and screaming about some poorly defined and never seen concept of 'human-rights'. the left has been commandeered by it's own radical elements as much as the right has been commandeered by their extremists. Everything is subordinated to that one thing and any group who's perceived as remotely white, european, successful, modern, capitalist is a threat to that.

[Elisheba]

The question I'd ask them is if Jesus were alive today do you think he'd support the creation of a religion which appears to stand for little more than the criminalization of abortion and gay marriage?

So, I guess I missed the point ... the group in question is in fact the Christians. Apologies. All I saw here were Jews and atheists.

So, as to your question for Christians to ask of 'Jesus' ... were he alive today: Mediocrates, you just cannot be serious about your clear implication that all modern Christianity stands for is criminalizing abortion and gay marriage! That's just your sense of humor, huh? :confused: :cool:

[KettleWhistle]

This thread has been about the Left (basically atheist?) and Jews.
I am an atheist, and I'm definitely on the Right (not to mention being right:) )

[Elisheba]

The left has turned against the Jews because the left has become a mockery of itself. It has no focus, no cause, no goals other than making noise and screaming about some poorly defined and never seen concept of 'human-rights'. the left has been commandeered by it's own radical elements as much as the right has been commandeered by their extremists. Everything is subordinated to that one thing and any group who's perceived as remotely white, european, successful, modern, capitalist is a threat to that.

A bit too much hyperbole for my taste.

The left has always been vibrant, open to change and the true conscience of humanity.

The problem, in my opinion, is not that the left has been somehow comandeered but rather that they have re-focused on undeserving targets: Israel and the Jews.

[Elisheba]

I am an atheist, and I'm definitely on the Right (not to mention being right:) )

An atheist right-winger from California? :eek: ROFLMAO!

[KettleWhistle]

An atheist right-winger from California? :eek: ROFLMAO!Well, I'm not too far to the right. More among libertarian lines. But you can add a Jewish nationalist to that too.

[Alfred]

All the time I hear about 'those' Jews and 'those' I just want to know if they think that St. Paul would form a church based on the kind of disgust, intolerance and hate his followers espouse.

For 150 years Jews have been associated with socialist causes and in the last 25 excoriated for them. ..... I was brought up if not to welcome and weep for those less fortunate, at least appreciate that they are less fortunate and that we as a community have a shared responsibility in it. I can't imagine that my Christian friends would throw all the people in their own church out fo the lifeboat, do they? But we're lead to believe that if you cast the net just a little bit wider than that you're somehow a dangerous maniac.




Mediocrates:

I would be willing to bet you ten dollars that if you did a proper search you would find that CHRISTIAN charities give millions more to the poor, the unfortunate, and to the hungry than Jewish agencies. The Red Cross is a Christian organization....the Boy Scouts...the Salvation Army and many more. The difference is that the Left would FORCE everyone to give money where the Right would allow people to make their own mind up.

I give at least 10% of my income Christian causes...much of which goes to poor folks not of my faith in poor countries. But I CHOOSE to give that money. It is a satanic concept in our view to force people to give to government approved charities....many of which are anathema to morality.

America...which historically has been a Christian country, is perhaps the most generous country the world has ever seen. I will not accept being labeled as part of a "hate" group because I believe that you and I should CHOOSE to help others versus being FORCED to help others. That is a concept that was fought before this world was.

[Mediocrates]

Well perhaps that is all that you believe Christianity stands for. We Christians think differently of course. As a Liberal New York Jew who has moved to the Bible Belt you perhaps have a view of Christianity that is slightly distorted by the reception a Liberal New York Jew receives when he moves to the Bible Belt. Probably similar to the reception a Conservative Christian would get if he moved to certain parts of New York City.


That's not the point and you know that's not the point. Here's the point since everyone is flinging around a paint roller. If you want to politicize relgion you better be damn sure you don't wallow in the corruption of your own political expediency.

[Elisheba]

Well, I'm not too far to the right. More among libertarian lines. But you can add a Jewish nationalist to that too.

What's a Jewish nationalist? A Zionist?

I am a domestic liberal, a social libertarian and a definite Zionist. (in other words, i ain't got no political party here!)

[Mediocrates]

A bit too much hyperbole for my taste.

The left has always been vibrant, open to change and the true conscience of humanity.

The problem, in my opinion, is not that the left has been somehow comandeered but rather that they have re-focused on undeserving targets: Israel and the Jews.


And animal rights and immigration and resistance to education reform and a thousand other niche interests that placate the noisiest minority focus groups in the party. Let's face it, the most interesting person in the party now is Al Sharpton and no one even knows if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

[Mediocrates]

Mediocrates:

I would be willing to bet you ten dollars that if you did a proper search you would find that CHRISTIAN charities give millions more to the poor, the unfortunate, and to the hungry than Jewish agencies. The Red Cross is a Christian organization....the Boy Scouts...the Salvation Army and many more. The difference is that the Left would FORCE everyone to give money where the Right would allow people to make their own mind up.

I give at least 10% of my income Christian causes...much of which goes to poor folks not of my faith in poor countries. But I CHOOSE to give that money. It is a satanic concept in our view to force people to give to government approved charities....many of which are anathema to morality.

America...which historically has been a Christian country, is perhaps the most generous country the world has ever seen. I will not accept being labeled as part of a "hate" group because I believe that you and I should CHOOSE to help others versus being FORCED to help others. That is a concept that was fought before this world was.

Thank you for underlining my point.

[Mediocrates]

Well, I'm not too far to the right. More among libertarian lines. But you can add a Jewish nationalist to that too.


Isn't a Libertarian a Republican who smokes weed?

[Elisheba]

Mediocrates:

The Red Cross is a Christian organization....the Salvation Army and many more.


The Red Cross recognizes the 'whatever-color' Crescent, but removed their previous chairwoman because she dared to have them also recognize the Israeli equivalent. I wouldn't be bragging about the IRC if I were a Christian!

For your information, the Salvation Army considers themselves to be 'Salvationists' rather than any form of Christianity.

As to Jewish generosity: you should know the truth and, if you don't, you need to go educate yourself.

[Alfred]

Well, I'm not too far to the right. More among libertarian lines. But you can add a Jewish nationalist to that too.


I like right-wing Jewish nationalists. Even an atheist


(you can work on the God part later.....the first time you sit in a foxhole under artillery fire it will magically come to you)

:)

By the way. If you can go see "Saints and Soldiers" It is a new movie out that is only playing in limited locations. It is a really deep and good film about a WW2 medic who is atheist and comes to terms with his God. I think the medic is Jewish but the movie doesn't say for certain.

[Elisheba]

Isn't a Libertarian a Republican who smokes weed?


No.

A Libertarian is someone who doesn't care if YOU smoke weed or WHO you have sex with ... basically :D .

[Alfred]

The Red Cross recognizes the 'whatever-color' Crescent, but removed their previous chairwoman because she dared to have them also recognize the Israeli equivalent. I wouldn't be bragging about the IRC if I were a Christian!

For your information, the Salvation Army considers themselves to be 'Salvationists' rather than any form of Christianity.

As to Jewish generosity: you should know the truth and, if you don't, you need to go educate yourself.


I didn't say that Jewish organizations were not generous...I said that Christian agencies give a hell of a lot more to be labeled "un-caring"

Historically, the IRC and Salvation Army are Christian...who knows what they are today.

[Mediocrates]

No.

A Libertarian is someone who doesn't care if YOU smoke weed or WHO you have sex with ... basically :D .


No, that's a Unitarian, or a homecare nurse.

[Elisheba]

Okay, so I'm back after searching the difference between Zionism and Jewish nationalism. On those sites I read, I found no difference.

Will someone please respond as to whether he or she does make a distinction between the 2 terms?

[Alfred]

I don't see any difference. The Jews never wanted to force the world to accept their religion like the Muslims have.....that could be called Muslim nationalism.

As the term 'nationalism' probably came to be in the 18th century, it probably meant returning to Israel ....or zionism...when used by people regarding Jewish nationalism.

[Elisheba]

I don't see any difference. The Jews never wanted to force the world to accept their religion like the Muslims have.....that could be called Muslim nationalism.

As the term 'nationalism' probably came to be in the 18th century, it probably meant returning to Israel ....or zionism...when used by people regarding Jewish nationalism.


Yes, although the sites I visited parsed words, they all came back to the fact that 'Jewish nationalism' = 'Zionism.' Thank you, Alfred.

[Eugeenie]

You have become 'increasingly disgusted with this element within the left'????

We do like a little understatement from time to time





Are you aware that at nearly every demonstration, no matter its purpose, you will find a whole lot of people holding signs with swastikas superimposed over the Star of David? Again, it's heartbreaking ...


I remember the first "Zionism is Racism" sign I saw at a rally for some cause I've long since forgotton in Madison Wisconsin in the 70's. My, how they have progressed.

In many ways, I think our political system enforces a certain way of looking at the world as if it exists in binary. Good for writing code, but bad for politics IMO. We too often see ourselves as republican or democrat, liberal or conservative, and once we've decided whet we want to be when we grow up., we grow up to be all we want to be. If being a liberal or a democrat means believing in this or believing in that, we follow suit.

Well, I say "we", though there are obvious exceptions.

THis is the leval at which I think the demonstrations work, in that the anti-Israel stuff is always linked to other causes with which the left resonates. Workers of the world unite -- hate Israel. Save the Whales -- hate Israel. Equal rights for women -- hate Israel. Support Gay rights -- hate Israel. Doesn't matter the cause or whether there is any consistancy in the views (especially telling in gay people siuporting those who would exterminate them or women supporting those who would kill them for "honor"), what counts is the linkage formed in people's minds -- the idea that one accepts the whole cloth of a political idealogy and then conforms their own views accordingly.

[Canajew]

I agree with you. The Jews of the world legitimately played the victim card very well after the Holocaust.

they did not play the victim card. They were victims. And beyond that, it was not that they were demanding assistance from the progressive world, only thta they would be allowed, finally allowed after thousands of years, to pursue their own destiny without interference. There is a big difference between this and demanding affirmative action.


They still do in Hollywood with a Holocaust movie every other month.

this is not 'playing the victim card' as that implies they are trying to get something out of it from progressives. These movies are either made for Jewish audiences to inform and education, for the wider public for the same reason, or to make money.


The difference is that the Jews are no longer legitimate victims in the mind of most. In fact, the Jews of the world are back to their pre-war influence and success in the Christian Western democracies.

No, they are much further ahead. The stereotypes of the powerful influence of Jews was clearly untrue with respect to the western world pre-world war two, where signs on Canadian beaches said no Jews or dogs allowed.


The Left then, if I understand your point, have found a new victim class to support.

it is not necessarily that they have found a new one, they still have many of the same as before (women, african americans etc). Rather, it is that Jews are now associated with the white male ruling class mroe than the oppressed minority classes that get their attention. And multiculturalism, which has gained quite a bit of steam in the past 30 years has caused the left to embrace 'disadvantaged minorities' notwithstanding their dominant cultural paradigm encapsulates the worst of anti-leftist values such as the oppression of women, gays and minority groups.


The reaction from Europe is: "why are the Jews complaining and still bringing up the Holocaust when they are commiting a Holocaust today in Palestine...etc. etc." Every attempt by Israel to point out that it is Israel who is suffering is countered by the fact that the Jews are no longer the victim de jour of the Left. Very interesting.

to a certain extent. it is not all about the holocaust. Certainly, the birth of Israel, its political dynamic, its military posture and other features must be understood in the context of the holocaust, as well as Israel's unwillingness to prostrate itself for the good of the international community or take risks of destruction based on empty words of goodwill.

Jews in Israel are surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs, and doing what they can to maintain their own political identiy and culture. Restrictions on liberties to protect distinct socieities are perfectly acceptable to the left in Quebec and elsewhere, but the framing of the issue has moved Israel from being a tiny fleck of difference in a sea of uniformity to being a large nation oppressing a distinct smaller one. The suffering of Jewsih victims is not afforded nearly the same degree of concern by leftists as of "real" disadvantaged groups.


What I don't understand is that the Arab "victims" hate the Left. They hate Hollywood and many policies espoused by the Left (abortion, homosexuality, anti-religion etc.). So why do the Left love the Arabs so much? The Arabs would sooner cut the throat of every Lefty in America....especially those that pollute the Arab airwaves with anti-God movies. Why would the Left embrace those who would kill them at a drop of the hat?

part of it is this moral relitivism that has permiated the left, and this is supplemented by their anti-American, anti-globalization world-view. The anti-globalization gets them to the point where individual socieities and cultures need to be preserved, and any encroachment on "traditional" socieites by the west (where Israel is viewed merely as an extension thereof rather than a nation of refugees fleeing from the west and Arab world, which it is) is seen as being a negative as of right. This is combined with the moral relitivism perspective, which causes the left to ignore all different sorts of depravities and human rights violations and animocity towards them and their values because the morlaity of these beliefs and behaviours must only be assessed within the culture and community at issue. In essence, it is one big "who are we to judge" type of thing combined with a "its none of our business, we should stay out of their way and stop the west from interfering in their affairs".


I think I know why. Because the most dangerous enemy of Christianity in their minds is Islam. Maybe the Left thinks of Christianity as the ultimate enemy and that it is better to lie with the enemy for a short while to destroy the ultimate enemy. You can see it more and more, where Islam has more rights in America than does Christianity. I may be reaching a bit however. I will have to think about this more.
For the most extreme, this might be relevant, but for most of the masses in the new left I don't think this is relevant. They see chriatianity as bad because it is seen as an extension of 'the man' and the powerful influence of the ruling classes. Islam, by contrast, is the religion of the ppor, disinfranchised victim group, and so it is whitewashed, its sins ignored and its desired rationalized. But it is not to destroy christianity as much as it is to oppose 'the man'.

[Elisheba]

In many ways, I think our political system enforces a certain way of looking at the world as if it exists in binary. Good for writing code, but bad for politics IMO. We too often see ourselves as republican or democrat, liberal or conservative, and once we've decided whet we want to be when we grow up., we grow up to be all we want to be. If being a liberal or a democrat means believing in this or believing in that, we follow suit.


Yes, I can't tell you how difficult it was for me to stop feeling betrayed and finally give up on so many friends who wouldn't see things in a way other than 'strict party line' so to speak.

Now, although I will vote for Bush for President this November, I have no party affiliation.

All I have is my conscience and integrity (apparently, I've become a bit arrogant as well, too - no comments, please :D ).

[Elisheba]

they did not play the victim card. They were victims.

Thank you for responding that way to A: what an offensive post he made!

[Alfred]

Thank you for responding that way to A: what an offensive post he made!


Even if you are a legitimate victim you can still play the victim card when it is in your interest to do so. There have been lots of folks here in the cosy USA who were not effected by the Holocaust, yet who play the card everyday.

The Blacks also did very well playing the card 150 years post slavery. Latinos of late are also playing the card, based upon real and imagined issues.

The difference is that most Americans are no longer willing to be influenced by the Black victim card (reparations is the latest), while Europe is no longer influenced by the Jewish victim card....citing that the Pals are more victims than the Jews. No longer are the Jews looked at as poor refugees. As Canajew mentioned, they are more affluent today than ever. The Pals get the nod from Europe and the American Left.

It is called RealPolitik, and you are easily offended.

[redcake]

Alfred, there's something creepy about your posts I can't put my finger on. I'm glad you support Israel, but it's a bit disturbing to hear you compare Jewish Philanthropy as a lesser to the Salvation Army of all organizations... an organization that has expressed a desire to amend their good will to exclude Gays and whoever else they disapprove of. We could all go to great lengths to spell out just how damaging the Christian community or the Right has been towards Israel in it's own way... there has certainly been a flip flop of support, but I sincerely doubt that Jewish nationalism was a popular concept in 1967 around any Church unless it was along the lines of "good, now they'll go live somewhere else". Recognizing Jews as bretheren, or chosen people is a new concept that's only come along now that Christians can admit Jesus was a Jew.

[KSO]

Recognizing Jews as bretheren, or chosen people is a new concept that's only come along now that Christians can admit Jesus was a Jew.

Now please don't tell them that Jesus probably had a dark skin tone they'll go insane.

[Mediocrates]

But affluence isn't a reasonable measure of who is and who is not a legitimate victim of terrorism or hatecrimes, is it? Many terrorist acts of mass murder are perpetrated against the west, against Jewish middle class Israelis and against Americans. There is certainly those acts perpetrated against fellow arabs in dung heaps like Faluga or Mosul or Islamabad but the intent is to wage acts of violence against people who's survivors and interested parties are middle class and have access to the media.

[Elisheba]

Alfred, there's something creepy about your posts I can't put my finger on. I'm glad you support Israel, but it's a bit disturbing to hear you compare Jewish Philanthropy as a lesser to the Salvation Army of all organizations... an organization that has expressed a desire to amend their good will to exclude Gays and whoever else they disapprove of. We could all go to great lengths to spell out just how damaging the Christian community or the Right has been towards Israel in it's own way... there has certainly been a flip flop of support, but I sincerely doubt that Jewish nationalism was a popular concept in 1967 around any Church unless it was along the lines of "good, now they'll go live somewhere else". Recognizing Jews as bretheren, or chosen people is a new concept that's only come along now that Christians can admit Jesus was a Jew.

Yes, rather than respond to his last 'creepy' post to me, I want to simply second what you have posted above.

I guess it boils down to having an 'interesting' group here, but I mean the word 'interesting' in the way the Chinese intended in their old saying: "May you live in interesting times."

... creepy ... ;)

[Canajew]

you miss the point. The "card" ypou refer to, if you will, is that black people say that their ANCESTORS were oppressed and tortured and kept enslaved and therefore we owe TODAY's blacks something. This is quite a different thing than identifying ACTUAL victoms of a systemic industrialized and partially executed genocide of millions of people involving millions more. These peopel do not "play the card". They were and are victims, and demanded to be allowed to go where they wanted to to be free and not subserviant to another foreign nation.

You fused Jews playing on the holocaust today with those who were actual victims of it before. The reason Isarel had so much legitimacy is because of the real suffering these people endured, and the passage of time doesn't make their suffering less legitimate or make them less entitled to what they got BACK THEN.

With respect to today, the holocaust is not used to extract things or play any cards, but to inform the rest of the world that while they have forgotten, we have not, and we will not blindly follow the dictats of a pacifist europe.

To be sure realpolitik influenced european govenrmnets from the oil embargo on, and this in turn influienced their peopulation through media. But the idealistic new left does not act for realpolitik, but for what they consider to be the idealistic greater good. they are wrong, of course, but that's not the point.

[Elisheba]

you miss the point.


Nah.

You and Alf miss the point, kiwi.

[KettleWhistle]

What's a Jewish nationalist? A Zionist? Not quite. Zionism developed from Jewish nationalism. I would say Zionism is the practical expression of Jewish nationalism.

Jewish nationalism means seeing oneself as an ethnic Jew, as opposed to a religious one. That would mean associting with Jewish ethnic cultural values, history, language (Hebrew), literature, music, etc. As I like to put it, I read the Torah, and the rest of the Tanah, but I didn't see the recipe for my granma's oznei oman (homentashen) anywhere.:)
I am a domestic liberal,You are liberal in your domestic duties?:cool:

a social libertarian and a definite Zionist. (in other words, i ain't got no political party here!)I can relate. Basically, I am a social libertarian, and otherwise a very modest concervative. I love the idea of fiscally responsible government, but wouldn't want to see the welfare eliminated.

No, that's a Unitarian, or a homecare nurse.ROFLOL!:D

[redcake]

AJL - I like that you differentiate between Jewish Nationalism, and Zionism, but from your explanation, these definitions could easily be flipped. It would seem to me that identifying as a religious Jew would make you a Jewish Nationalist, while holding a cultural allegiance would make you more of a Zionist, likely with a diverse stance. After all, you could be a Christian Zionist, but you can't be a Christian who is a Jewish Nationalist, right?

[KettleWhistle]

AJL - I like that you differentiate between Jewish Nationalism, and Zionism, but from your explanation, these definitions could easily be flipped. It would seem to me that identifying as a religious Jew would make you a Jewish Nationalist, while holding a cultural allegiance would make you more of a Zionist, likely with a diverse stance. After all, you could be a Christian Zionist, but you can't be a Christian who is a Jewish Nationalist, right?
Good questions... I'd say it depends. The tricky thing with Jewishness, is that it can be seen either as a religious or as an ethnic identity. When I wrote my response to Elisheba, I was thinking about it from a historical perspective. But to answer your questions, I don't think identifying as a religious Jew will make you a Jewish nationalist. At the same time, an ethnic Jew that converted to Christianity can be a Jewish nationalist. Nationalism has to do only with ethnic identity, not with religion, and that's what gave birth to the state of Israel.

Just as a word of caution, do not confuse nationalism with fascism or racism. Fascism and racism are very extreme forms of nationalism that turn pride into ideologies of superiority over others. Normal, "heathly," nationalism is a matter of being proud of who you are and supporting your people's secular, and sometimes religious culture. It is more along the lines of patriotism deeply rooted in ethnic identity.

[Elisheba]

AJL - I like that you differentiate between Jewish Nationalism, and Zionism, but from your explanation, these definitions could easily be flipped. It would seem to me that identifying as a religious Jew would make you a Jewish Nationalist, while holding a cultural allegiance would make you more of a Zionist, likely with a diverse stance. After all, you could be a Christian Zionist, but you can't be a Christian who is a Jewish Nationalist, right?


What you wrote is not in any of the articles I found when doing my computer search on the 2 terms.

True, ANYONE can be supportive of the Jewish state, however, all of the articles I read equated Zionism with Jewish nationalism. Your statement that 'you can't be a Christian who is a Jewish Nationalist' misses the point because a Christian (or anyone else) can indeed be a Jewish Nationalist. In other words, being a Jewish Nationalist simply means believing in a home for the Jewish people rather than being a nationalist who is Jewish.

Actually, all of this mishegas is basically why I just use the term, Zionist!

[Elisheba]

Just as a word of caution, do not confuse nationalism with fascism or racism.

Thank you for spelling that out. It's a very important point! :)

[Canajew]

Nah.

You and Alf miss the point, kiwi.
Didn't mean you. The quote that was to accompany that point was not included. I was referring to Alfred's response to my original comments. To wit,

Even if you are a legitimate victim you can still play the victim card when it is in your interest to do so. There have been lots of folks here in the cosy USA who were not effected by the Holocaust, yet who play the card everyday.

The Blacks also did very well playing the card 150 years post slavery. Latinos of late are also playing the card, based upon real and imagined issues.

The difference is that most Americans are no longer willing to be influenced by the Black victim card (reparations is the latest), while Europe is no longer influenced by the Jewish victim card....citing that the Pals are more victims than the Jews. No longer are the Jews looked at as poor refugees. As Canajew mentioned, they are more affluent today than ever. The Pals get the nod from Europe and the American Left.

It is called RealPolitik, and you are easily offended.

[Elisheba]

Didn't mean you. The quote that was to accompany that point was not included. I was referring to Alfred's response to my original comments. To wit,

I don't care if you meant me or not. You can ignore me, but that doesn't mean I am precluded from posting.

Of course, the American Left and Eurabia sides with the arabs who call themselves palestinians for some 35 years now. It's called being PC.

[Canajew]

I don't care if you meant me or not. You can ignore me, but that doesn't mean I am precluded from posting.

Of course, the American Left and Eurabia sides with the arabs who call themselves palestinians for some 35 years now. It's called being PC.I'm sorry. You lost me. How did I miss the point, and what was the point exactly?

Query Newsguy. Was the personal atatck directed against me? What did I do to make you, Elisheba, think I am "ignoring" you or that I even disagreed with you? I don't get it.

[Elisheba]

I'm sorry. You lost me. How did I miss the point, and what was the point exactly?


Don't you worry your kiwi little head any longer. I'm sure the nurse will be in soon with your meds.

[Canajew]

Don't you worry your kiwi little head any longer. I'm sure the nurse will be in soon with your meds.but I've never even been to New Zealand, and I am not an aboriginal. And what's with the meds? Where did all this hostility come from? If you won't tell me, can someone please tell me what's going on.

You're not an angry ex or something are you? ;)

[Elisheba]

but I've never even been to New Zealand, and I am not an aboriginal. And what's with the meds? Where did all this hostility come from? If you won't tell me, can someone please tell me what's going on.

You're not an angry ex or something are you? ;)


No, I'm a very happy and satisfied 'current.' :D

As far as being an 'angry ex' with regard to you ... bleh ... I can't imagine anyone being an anything with regard to you - well, except always at least a mile away from you.

The meds? Well, you are so confused ... it just seems natural that you would need psychotropics. If you aren't on them now, consider it.

[KettleWhistle]

No, I'm a very happy and satisfied 'current.' :D

As far as being an 'angry ex' with regard to you ... bleh ... I can't imagine anyone being an anything with regard to you - well, except always at least a mile away from you.

The meds? Well, you are so confused ... it just seems natural that you would need psychotropics. If you aren't on them now, consider it.Elisheba,

Who's your supplier for the... ummm.. "meds?" I'd like some of yours too, just to add a bit of the shoot-them-all aggressiveness... I think I need more of that :)

You can PM me with the pager number.

[Canajew]

No, I'm a very happy and satisfied 'current.' :D

As far as being an 'angry ex' with regard to you ... bleh ... I can't imagine anyone being an anything with regard to you - well, except always at least a mile away from you.

The meds? Well, you are so confused ... it just seems natural that you would need psychotropics. If you aren't on them now, consider it.
can somebody please tell me what's going on, given Eli has decided to get all passive aggresive. the whole "if you don't know what's bothering me, I'm not going to tell you" is getting a little stale.

Maybe this is a gender thing too, but I don't see how this is supposed to aid in any sort of resolution. I had thought we were largely on the same side on most issues.

and for the record, I didn't do anything.

[Elisheba]

can somebody please tell me what's going on, given Eli has decided to get all passive aggresive. the whole "if you don't know what's bothering me, I'm not going to tell you" is getting a little stale.

Maybe this is a gender thing too, but I don't see how this is supposed to aid in any sort of resolution. I had thought we were largely on the same side on most issues.

and for the record, I didn't do anything.

I was miffed over the 'play the ---- card' ... it just sounds hateful. Other than that, I agree we have generally been on the same side on most issues.

Please don't refer to me as "Eli" ... Elisheba is the Hebrew name for Elizabeth; so feel free to use either one. Thank you.

[Elisheba]

Elisheba,

Who's your supplier for the... ummm.. "meds?" I'd like some of yours too, just to add a bit of the shoot-them-all aggressiveness... I think I need more of that :)

You can PM me with the pager number.

Okay: did you make contact? Be sure to taste before you buy. ;)

[Canajew]

I was not using it of my own accord but using what he had provided to show why his logic doesn't follow. I try to co-opt language whenever I can to argue on their terms if I feel I can win playing their game. And with him, even if playing the victim card is something that people can do, it would not apply in these circumstances because the people WERE acutally victims.

One indeed can "use the victim card", but this only works in the context of using the victimization or persecution of ancestors where there may be a continuing effect over time but that the individuals themselves are not "victoms" of those they seek redress from. Saying blacks were slaves in the US in order to get a black immigrant from Jamaica some affirmative action is indeed "playing the victim card", while demanding consideration for the actual victims of police violence, for example, would not be.

As unsavoury as the choice of language is, and I would choose differently if I were approaching the issue of my own accord, I had no improper or hateful motives and there was no reason to impute anything about me due to my incorporation of his language into my responses.

You jumped to conclusions about what I said.

So now can I at least get within a half mile? ;)

[Elisheba]

Canajew,

Oh, it's just that sweet little me is not smart enough to follow what you were doing. Oh, dear (pardon me while I fan myself.)

Yes, I jumped just a bit ... because I laid it ALL on you ... HOWEVER, I still don't like the whole 'play the whatever card' ... perhaps I lost a game of poker at a very young age and don't remember it. :D

My statement about within a mile was really directed at cnm, green, independent and olive. You got it because I just knew you would be sooooo understanding (pardon me while I bat my eyelashes).

(please read the above with a softly Southern accent... :p )

[Canajew]

Canajew,

Oh, it's just that sweet little me is not smart enough to follow what you were doing. Oh, dear (pardon me while I fan myself.)

Yes, I jumped just a bit ... because I laid it ALL on you ... HOWEVER, I still don't like the whole 'play the whatever card' ... perhaps I lost a game of poker at a very young age and don't remember it. :D

My statement about within a mile was really directed at cnm, green, independent and olive. You got it because I just knew you would be sooooo understanding (pardon me while I bat my eyelashes).

(please read the above with a softly Southern accent... :p )
not sure I get it. Does this mean you are still mad?

[Elisheba]

not sure I get it. Does this mean you are still mad?

Men!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

No, it was a pathetic attempt at an apology made by a flirtatious Southern belle.

THUD.

[Alfred]

Alfred, there's something creepy about your posts I can't put my finger on. I'm glad you support Israel, but it's a bit disturbing to hear you compare Jewish Philanthropy as a lesser to the Salvation Army of all organizations... an organization that has expressed a desire to amend their good will to exclude Gays and whoever else they disapprove of.

We could all go to great lengths to spell out just how damaging the Christian community or the Right has been towards Israel in it's own way...

there has certainly been a flip flop of support, but I sincerely doubt that Jewish nationalism was a popular concept in 1967 around any Church unless it was along the lines of "good, now they'll go live somewhere else".

Recognizing Jews as bretheren, or chosen people is a new concept that's only come along now that Christians can admit Jesus was a Jew.


I'm sorry Redcake, but this is the funniest post I have seen in a while. I will answer it as best I can.

1. Medio implied that Christians are stingy, uncaring folks. I replied that Christian organziations (in total) probably give more to the poor than do Jewish organizations (in total). Even if you don't agree that Christians are charity minded, you would have to agree that there are millions more Christians than Jews and just by that token we give more to the poor than you do. So.....it is unfair to paint Christians as uncaring of the poor. That is my point...creepy or not.

2. Before you condem the Salvation Army for not giving to Gays (good grief Redcake, this is a religious organziation...do we have to donate to transvestites, pediophiles, atheists, neo-nazis and sodomites too??) you may want to see if Jewish organizations give their money to all poor folk...or mostly to Jewish poor folk. Check your own before you cast accusations.

3. Christians have been "damaging" to Israel??? I tell you what. Let's just drop ALL Christian support for Israel tomorrow and see what happens. You need a reality check on that topic.

4. Most US Jews never ended up in Israel so "good, now they'll go live somewhere else" never happened. For some reason, we still support Israel. Must be for different reasons. However, after being on this board for the last couple of years, I could be talked into that concept :) Well, as long as they lose the right to vote in two countries. Something I have never agreed with for any country, any nationality. You are American or non-American. You shouldn't be able to vote in two countries.

5. This last part about Christians finally realizing that Jesus was a Jew has me rolling on the floor!!!! Clearly you need to talk to more Christians. I am of the opinion that it is the Jews who are finally coming to realize that Jesus was a Jew....or that there was a real Jesus in the first place.

But thanks for the post. It was great.

[Elisheba]

Redcake

He just topped himself in even more creepiness! Some people just don't get it! :rolleyes: :D

[Alfred]

not sure I get it. Does this mean you are still mad?


I think she is still mad at you.....she is playing the "canada card." But at least she didn't call you "creepy"


I am so offended.


:)


(and Elisheba...you liked me before I said I wan't Jewish....I am staring to think you are anti-....anti-.... I can't think of a good word.)

:)

[Canajew]

Men!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

no kidding. That's why I prefer women :D


No, it was a pathetic attempt at an apology made by a flirtatious Southern belle.

THUD.
cool. I thought it was because you thought something I said was condescending. I like your explanation better. :)

[Mediocrates]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything. My point was I guess too simple which was, if Christians the world over do good charitable deeds then why is it if we expand that tent a little to be a little more inclusive than you are liable to be, we become these dangerous international cosmopolitan types. It seems to be a rather slight difference of degree that's all.

[Elisheba]

I think she is still mad at you.....she is playing the "canada card." But at least she didn't call you "creepy"

I am so offended.

(and Elisheba...you liked me before I said I wan't Jewish....I am staring to think you are anti-....anti-.... I can't think of a good word.)


Please don't be an arse. I didn't ever think of you as Jewish. Besides, some of my best friends are Christians. :D

Do not come between my new best friend, Canajew, and me please! There were all those bad people and poor Canajew was the recipient of my wrath ... I am NOT mad at him! :p

Not that it's any of your business, but RichardP played the Canada card and I bought it lock, stock and barrel. He's my good buddy!

[Canajew]

That is my point...creepy or not.

I don't think that was the creepy bit.


I agree with you. The Jews of the world legitimately played the victim card very well after the Holocaust. They still do in Hollywood with a Holocaust movie every other month. The difference is that the Jews are no longer legitimate victims in the mind of most. In fact, the Jews of the world are back to their pre-war influence and success in the Christian Western democracies.


these bits, I think, are the creepy bits. The flippant use of lamguage in the first, taking such a serious issue and turning it into a black and white (like night and day, not like African American and Caucasians) case of "playing a card" like it is a hand to be played out to the best of one's ability, ignoring the calousness of commenting such about an unbelievably traumatic event in such recent history. You effectively undo the point you were trying to make through your choice of language.

Then you add what sems to have a very distinct internalized Jewish stereotype about influece, which, though in a supportive context, makes people uncomfortable, especially given the fact that being a religious Christian, the working assumption is you get your understanding of Jews from Sunday school and have met maybe 3 or 4. COuld be wrong, but generally the working assumption.


And as a religious Christian, who, in general, tend to make Jews uncomfortable as a class (to a certain extent, I'm not sure we "get" you), you need to be more aware of these sensitivities. Its not that people will dislike you for talking like this, ultimately we know you're supportive. We may be a tad sensitive, but we pick up on things like these.

They sort of make our collective "spider senses" tingle, which makes some feel a tad .. creeped out. And part of the reason for these spidey senses is of course the event which you so flippantly characterized in your opening.

Regards

[Alfred]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything. My point was I guess too simple which was, if Christians the world over do good charitable deeds then why is it if we expand that tent a little to be a little more inclusive than you are liable to be, we become these dangerous international cosmopolitan types. It seems to be a rather slight difference of degree that's all.

I now understand your point. I must have been dense.


I don't really think any aide organization, be it Jewish or Christian, asks earthquake victims if they are trans-gendered homosexuals or born-again republicans. We all provide help when needed.

We Christians generally do not like to donate money to organizations who push abortion or who have an agenda that is clearly against everything we believe in. That is fair isn't it? It's our money.

If your organization want to broaden their tent then that is fine with me.

I don't send money to causes I don't like and neither do you most likely. And both of us do not send money to neo-nazis. So we can agree on some things.

:)

[Elisheba]

I must have been dense.

We Christians generally do not like to donate money to organizations who push abortion or who have an agenda that is clearly against everything we believe in. That is fair isn't it? It's our money.


What do you mean by "We Christians?" There are PLENTY of Christian denominations that are pro-choice as well as supportive of gay & lesbian rights.

So, just who are you speaking for: the fundamentalist/Falwell/fringe?

[Alfred]

I don't think that was the creepy bit.


these bits, I think, are the creepy bits. The flippant use of lamguage in the first, taking such a serious issue and turning it into a black and white (like night and day, not like African American and Caucasians) case of "playing a card" like it is a hand to be played out to the best of one's ability, ignoring the calousness of commenting such about an unbelievably traumatic event in such recent history. You effectively undo the point you were trying to make through your choice of language.

Then you add what sems to have a very distinct internalized Jewish stereotype about influece, which, though in a supportive context, makes people uncomfortable, especially given the fact that being a religious Christian, the working assumption is you get your understanding of Jews from Sunday school and have met maybe 3 or 4. COuld be wrong, but generally the working assumption.


And as a religious Christian, who, in general, tend to make Jews uncomfortable as a class (to a certain extent, I'm not sure we "get" you), you need to be more aware of these sensitivities. Its not that people will dislike you for talking like this, ultimately we know you're supportive. We may be a tad sensitive, but we pick up on things like these.

They sort of make our collective "spider senses" tingle, which makes some feel a tad .. creeped out. And part of the reason for these spidey senses is of course the event which you so flippantly characterized in your opening.

Regards


Well, over the past two years I have talked to a whole bunch of Jewish folk on this website...probably more than most Christian folk have. So I can say I have a good sense of what is going on.

The term "playing the victim card" is a political term. And I use the word without judgement. It is a card in one's deck to be played in the game of Real Politik. Israel also has the "Nuclear Card," the "Jewish Lobby in Washington Card" and which she also plays when needed. Other groups have their cards. America has her cards....and she played the "victim card" after Sept 11. The Saudis have their cards which include the "Oil boycott" card. Kerry is playing his "I am was a hero in VietNam" card.

If I am judgemental on anyone playing the "victim card" it is with people who have no right to play that card. I do not believe Kerry was a hero in VietNam so I cringe when he plays the card. The Europeans no longer think of Israel as a victim so they turn a blind eye to Israel playing the card. Most Americans laugh when Black political leaders try to play the victim card with regard to reparations.

Jews who were directly effected by the Holocaust can play the victim card all day long and I respect it, even if it is not relevant to the conversation. I do not respect "jewish leaders" who are two generations away from the survivors who play the card when they want to try to shut up the opposition. Same thing applies to other groups and their victim cards. It is all a matter of timeframe for these non-direct victims isn't it? Third generation Japanese trying to get money due to the WW2 internment of their now-dead grandparents bugs me for example.

My "influence" comments are related to your saying that the Left likes the underdog...the poor...the downtrodden. My point was that the post WW2 affluence and influence of the Jews as a whole take them out of the "poor and downtrodden" class. I was trying to agree with you.

I am sorry that religious Christians (as a class) make you and other Jews nervous. You better get used to them however, as the Left has dumped you on the pile of political expediency. Unless of course you (as a people) dump your "old fashioned" religious views and "religiously conceived State of Isreal." Then they will accept you. A lot of Jews have already joined them and have dumped their past and Israel.

The Christians may soon become your only (as a class) friends. At least for those Jews who refuse to surrender.

[Alfred]

What do you mean by "We Christians?" There are PLENTY of Christian denominations that are pro-choice as well as supportive of gay & lesbian rights.

So, just who are you speaking for: the fundamentalist/Falwell/fringe?


Well, actually I speak for all Christians.


(settle down, just joking)

Yes, there are plenty that support your causes. The traditional ones do not however. I would even imagine that there are plenty of Jewish and Muslim organizations who do not support your causes.

It is a free world (at least in the USA) where we can donate to whom we wish. Which is why I don't like the government taking our money to donate to whomever THEY wish.

That was one issue Medio and I were debating at one point. Choice versus Government mandate.

[Elisheba]

Well, over the past two years I have talked to a whole bunch of Jewish folk on this website...probably more than most Christian folk have. So I can say I have a good sense of what is going on.

Well, if you've talked to a whole bunch of Jewish folk on this here website, you probably have a reeeeeeaaaaaaally good 'sense' of whazzup.


The term "playing the victim card" is a political term. And I use the word without judgement. It is a card in one's deck to be played in the game of Real Politik. Israel also has the "Nuclear Card," the "Jewish Lobby in Washington Card" and which she also plays when needed. Other groups have their cards. America has her cards....and she played the "victim card" after Sept 11. The Saudis have their cards which include the "Oil boycott" card. Kerry is playing his "I am was a hero in VietNam" card.

No, it is isn't a political term; it's just a figure of speech. By the way, why do you use 'Real Politik' so much? Did you learn that somewhere? You show your incredible ignorance when you write that we have the "Jewish Lobby in Washington Card." Do you know the amount of money the arabs spend to lobby Washington? LOOK IT UP!


If I am judgemental on anyone playing the "victim card" it is with people who have no right to play that card. I do not believe Kerry was a hero in VietNam so I cringe when he plays the card. The Europeans no longer think of Israel as a victim so they turn a blind eye to Israel playing the card. Most Americans laugh when Black political leaders try to play the victim card with regard to reparations.

The Eurabian blind eyes have NOTHING to do with the Shoah and EVERYTHING to do with their shifting populations and the EU. "Most Americans laugh ... "???? Source, please. Data. Proof. Put up or shut up.


Jews who were directly effected by the Holocaust can play the victim card all day long and I respect it, even if it is not relevant to the conversation. I do not respect "jewish leaders" who are two generations away from the survivors who play the card when they want to try to shut up the opposition. Same thing applies to other groups and their victim cards. It is all a matter of timeframe for these non-direct victims isn't it?

You know NOTHING of the people you refer to as "jewish leaders" 2 generations away from the survivors ... etc. In the first place, there are still some survivors who are living; there many children of survivors who have had profound effects on their lives from the way it was to grow up with so many of your family murdered and your parents so traumatized they never spoke, yet trudged silently from room to room as you caught a glimpse of the numbers on their forearms. HOW DARE YOU??????


I am sorry that religious Christians (as a class) make you and other Jews nervous. You better get used to them however, as the Left has dumped you on the pile of political expediency. Unless of course you (as a people) dump your "old fashioned" religious views and "religiously conceived State of Isreal." Then they will accept you. A lot of Jews have already joined them and have dumped their past and Israel.

Religious Christians do not make me or any other Jew I know, nervous. We better get used to them? Hellooooooooooo? We live in a country where we comprise about 3% of the population: we ARE used to 'them!' The balance of your statement will just stand in all its sickening grandiosity.


The Christians may soon become your only (as a class) friends. At least for those Jews who refuse to surrender.

That was a joke, right? "At least for those Jews who refuse to surrender." That was a joke, right? :eek: :rolleyes:

[redcake]

What you wrote is not in any of the articles I found when doing my computer search on the 2 terms.

Huh?




Your statement that 'you can't be a Christian who is a Jewish Nationalist' misses the point because a Christian (or anyone else) can indeed be a Jewish Nationalist. In other words, being a Jewish Nationalist simply means believing in a home for the Jewish people rather than being a nationalist who is Jewish.

No, that would make you a Christian who supports Jewish nationalism. It would not make you a Jewish Nationalist, as you'd still be a Christian. Jewish Nationalism is built into the religion itself... the Torah is full of it... no mentions of Zionism.

[Elisheba]

Huh?



No, that would make you a Christian who supports Jewish nationalism. It would not make you a Jewish Nationalist, as you'd still be a Christian. Jewish Nationalism is built into the religion itself... the Torah is full of it... no mentions of Zionism.


But that's exactly what I said! Please don't say that 'the Torah is full of it' ... just not nice. :D

[MGB8]

AJL... while it is interesting in an academic way to parse between Jewish nationalism (the idea that the Jews need a nation, somewhere) and Zionism (Jewish nation in Israel)...these are somewhat made up categories, with tons of overlap and, practically, kind of useless.

This is the type of academic compartmentalization that guys like Takeo believe adequately represents real life.

In short...if the discussion does as much to confuse issues as it does to enlighten...why have it?

[Alfred]

Well, if you've talked to a whole bunch of Jewish folk on this here website, you probably have a reeeeeeaaaaaaally good 'sense' of whazzup.:

That is true. I have not talked with every Jewish person in the USA and Israel. But neither have you. Let's just say this forum is a representative sample of both Left and Right leaning Jews



No, it is isn't a political term; it's just a figure of speech. By the way, why do you use 'Real Politik' so much? Did you learn that somewhere? You show your incredible ignorance when you write that we have the "Jewish Lobby in Washington Card." Do you know the amount of money the arabs spend to lobby Washington? LOOK IT UP!:

RealPolitik is a German word that educated people use every once in awhile. It is: German for "politics of reality" based upon practical concerns rather than theory or ethics. Realpolitik in many cases has been for the advancement of the national interest of a country over ethical or prinicipled concerns. ( http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Real-politik)


I may be wrong, but you come across as being very young.

If you do not believe there is a Jewish Lobby, a Muslim Lobby, a Homosexual Lobby, a Teachers Lobby, a Gun Lobby, a Black Lobby etc. then you are also from a different country.




The Eurabian blind eyes have NOTHING to do with the Shoah and EVERYTHING to do with their shifting populations and the EU. "Most Americans laugh ... "???? Source, please. Data. Proof. Put up or shut up.:

See my comment about being from a different country. You REALLY believe that most Americans don't fall-down laughing when Jesse Jackson talks about Reparations for Slavery??? You need to get out more often.




You know NOTHING of the people you refer to as "jewish leaders" 2 generations away from the survivors ... etc. In the first place, there are still some survivors who are living; there many children of survivors who have had profound effects on their lives from the way it was to grow up with so many of your family murdered and your parents so traumatized they never spoke, yet trudged silently from room to room as you caught a glimpse of the numbers on their forearms. HOW DARE YOU??????:

Are YOU playing the victim card on me right now??? :) How dare you!!!

See my point about actual victims versus wannabe victims playing the same card. There are lots of them out there, you just need to pay more attention. And yes, Jews are not the only real victims in the world; talk to some Armenians, Ruandins (sp?), Arab Christians, Russians, Germans, Japanese, South Americans, Kenyans etc.




Religious Christians do not make me or any other Jew I know, nervous. We better get used to them? Hellooooooooooo? We live in a country where we comprise about 3% of the population: we ARE used to 'them!' The balance of your statement will just stand in all its sickening grandiosity.:

Well, Canajew said that Christians made you nervous. The rest of my statement will have meaning to many...I am sorry it escapes you.




That was a joke, right? "At least for those Jews who refuse to surrender." That was a joke, right? :eek: :rolleyes:

Refuse to surrender their rights, their religion and their customs. I regret that my paragraph was too deep.

[MGB8]

Alfred, your posts are missing a BIG ISSUE.

There are 14-15 million Jews in the world - TOTAL. Compared to Hundereds of Millions, even Billions, of Christains and Muslims and Hindus and whatnot.

Jews are accused of being a bit paranoid... but there's an old joke, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't after you!

Jews don't have a large margin for error, so when you say Jews are playing "the victim card" what Jews really are playing is the "are you really willing to stand by and allow, or even help, people make us extinct for some marginal personal gain." It is not a attempt to get pity, it is a call to morality.

There is a big difference.

[Elisheba]

In short...if the discussion does as much to confuse issues as it does to enlighten...why have it?

So, to address this question only: do moderators ever lock topics around here or do people just go around and around and around until they get dizzy and fall over?

[redcake]

I'm sorry Redcake, but this is the funniest post I have seen in a while.


Alfred - regarding the Holocaust and your assertion that politicians 2 generations away are taking advantage with a victims complex (that is what you said right?) ... I hope you realize that would mean the typical Jewish politican is 30 and under. The Holocaust isn't even a century old, and many of those who commited these attrocities are still alive and in active. I don't think there's a time date stamp on "playing the victim card".

Regarding Jewish philanthropy, I think you need to do some homework. George Soros, self hating as he might be, probably gives more then any Christian group you could name. Nobody said Christians are uncaring (and nobody made it a competition, but you)... it's just obscene to use the "millions more" Christians to slight Jewish generosity. Get it now?

Jewish philanthropy organizations have never lobbied against affirmative action for the sake of denying access to their good will. We're talking about Homosexuals, DO NOT equate the gay community with neo-nazis and pediophile... and YES you DO have to share donations equally with atheists, and trannies, and whoever else... it's the law, and it's wrong to exclude people based on their personal lifestyles or beliefs. Fact is, some organizations would prefer to only provide for those that believe in Christ, and exclude Jews....and wait a minute... I seem to recall that being an issue in modern times!

I have duel citizenship by the way, and I can't vote in two countries. I think you need a brush up in your understanding of Israeli citizenship as a dual priviledge. In addition, Israel is not the only nation that allows for dual citizenship with the US. Your issue isn't with American Jews, it's with the United States regulations for absentee voting. So redirect your angst elsewhere please.

Oh and your psuedo threatening taunts about the fate of Israel if Christians dropped their support ? ... well Israel wasn't built or armed from Christian support... but with that statement of yours I'm a rather saddened that you went from subtle creepiness to full blown nutty on us.

Still laughing?

[redcake]

AJL... while it is interesting in an academic way to parse between Jewish nationalism (the idea that the Jews need a nation, somewhere) and Zionism (Jewish nation in Israel)...these are somewhat made up categories, with tons of overlap and, practically, kind of useless.

This is the type of academic compartmentalization that guys like Takeo believe adequately represents real life.

In short...if the discussion does as much to confuse issues as it does to enlighten...why have it?


I would agree that the semantics are more of a brain twister then they are usefull... but as a correction, Zionism does not require a Jewish state in Israel... we know the original Zionists considered many absurd locations, so defining Zionism as being an ideaology wrapped around Israel is a misnomer.

I do think it's important that we clarify these terms for those who make it their hobby to slander them.

Elisheba - I still think you've all got it flipped. Jewish Nationalism comes from the Torah, and is part of the religion, while Zionism is a political ideaology endorsed by many Jews and non-Jews alike.

[Elisheba]

That is true. I have not talked with every Jewish person in the USA and Israel. But neither have you. Let's just say this forum is a representative sample of both Left and Right leaning Jews.

Not really. It's somewhat representative of some Jews who like to post on internet forums. Period.



RealPolitik is a German word that educated people use every once in awhile. It is: German for "politics of reality" based upon practical concerns rather than theory or ethics. Realpolitik in many cases has been for the advancement of the national interest of a country over ethical or prinicipled concerns. ( http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Real-politik)

I am aware of the term. What I asked was concerning your overusage of it. Repeating a phrase which you believe to be important ('a German word that educated people use...') indicates very low self-esteem.



See my comment about being from a different country. You REALLY believe that most Americans don't fall-down laughing when Jesse Jackson talks about Reparations for Slavery???

Yes, I believe most Americans do fall down laughing about that. I also know that when graduate students took the Bill of Rights around and asked random people in various parts of the USA what they thought it was, overwhelmingly they responded that it was some sort of commie-pinko trash. So, what most Americans do isn't necessarily a measure one ought use. Ever hear of the tyranny of the majority?



You need to get out more often.

I'd really like to, but I can't: I'm playing the wheelchair card now.



See my point about actual victims versus wannabe victims playing the same card. There are lots of them out there, you just need to pay more attention. And yes, Jews are not the only real victims in the world; talk to some Armenians, Ruandins (sp?), Arab Christians, Russians, Germans, Japanese, South Americans, Kenyans etc.

It's spelled R U W A N D A N S ... educated people know that. (please see your condescending quote above)



Well, Canajew said that Christians made you nervous.

My memory fails me. Please post the thread and page where Canajew said that. Thank you.



The rest of my statement will have meaning to many...I am sorry it escapes you.

Don't be sorry. I would love to have people who find meaning in what you post come out and admit it. Please, everyone. Anyone? :rolleyes:



Refuse to surrender their rights, their religion and their customs. I regret that my paragraph was too deep.

You are a condescending piece of ----. Nothing you could think of, let alone write, would be too deep for me. So, talk to me more about your threats against Jews who refuse to surrender our rights, religion and customs. Come on, make some more threats, --------.

[redcake]

.

If you do not believe there is a Jewish Lobby.....

.... And yes, Jews are not the only real victims in the world; talk to some Armenians, Ruandins (sp?), Arab Christians, Russians, Germans, Japanese, South Americans, Kenyans etc.

Then why single out the Jewish lobby as antisemites are prone to do?

Then in the next breath you're saying Jews play a victim card and WANT to be singled out and worse, are somehow connected, or at fault for the lack of publicity paid to other attrocities in Armenia, etc. ??? That smacks of a deep resentment towards Jews for enduring tragedy.

[Elisheba]

Elisheba - I still think you've all got it flipped. Jewish Nationalism comes from the Torah, and is part of the religion, while Zionism is a political ideaology endorsed by many Jews and non-Jews alike.

I understand. Yes, from the Torah, you are correct. The search engines I used and the articles I read all referred to the political and not the religious. With regard to the political, the sources made the 2 terms interchangeable. However, the Jewish Nationalism as written in the Torah would, of course, not be Zionism.

Again, however, nowadays ANYONE can be a supporter of Jewish Nationalism and of Zionism and it means the same thing. To be fair, in the big inning, you are 100% correct.

I just wasn't being clear. Does that make sense now? If not, I can post some articles ...

[NewsGuy]

I'm grateful to our Christian neighbors for their support for Israel and for the Jewish community in general.

America's Conservative Christians are true allies of ours, and IMO, share more values with mainstream Jews than one would guess at first sight.

I don't question the motivations of the Christian Right, because I understand that they are motivated by their religious beliefs and core values, which are very positive.

And, apart from this, Alfred is a very good guy. He's a long-time member of the forum and means no offense (even though his posts are sometimes misunderstood). In fact, I'd say that he's one of my favorite authors to read when my time here is limited.

And he's exactly correct that Israel could not survive without the support of American Christians. It's not a great thing for Israel and not something we like to hear, but it's a fact.

I’d have to say that one of the funniest exchanges took place a little while ago between Alfred and ibrodsky, who are both super Conservative, about whose views are too liberal. It was a good one…

[Canajew]

sorry, I did say that. It has been my experience that Jews, especially secular ones, find religious christians make them nervous. Like they are cheering for you in the hopes you will die at the end for middle earth to be redeemed. And the religious fervour inJesus. I mean, I don't believe in god at all, but the way Jews do torah is far more logical, reasonable and inquisitive than what I perceive to be Chrisatian analytics. And this, coupled with the strength of Christians' convictions, makes the secular among us a bit weired out where such religion from a religious Jew would not (well, amybe a bit, but the degree of "learnedness" and the logical argumentative exercises seem much greater)

[Elisheba]

sorry, I did say that. It has been my experience that Jews, especially secular ones, find religious christians make them nervous. Like they are cheering for you in the hopes you will die at the end for middle earth to be redeemed. And the religious fervour inJesus. I mean, I don't believe in god at all, but the way Jews do torah is far more logical, reasonable and inquisitive than what I perceive to be Chrisatian analytics. And this, coupled with the strength of Christians' convictions, makes the secular among us a bit weired out where such religion from a religious Jew would not (well, amybe a bit, but the degree of "learnedness" and the logical argumentative exercises seem much greater)

No need to apologize. However, I still do not see where you (specifically) called me (specifically) nervous around Christians. That is what Alfred said when tattling on you. I asked him to show me exactly where you called me nervous around Christians. I still haven't seen that. What you have written above is that 'Jews, especially secular ones, find religious christians make them nervous.' Alfred said you accused me of that and now you confirmed it, however, you have not made it specific. I NEED TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU CALLED ME 'NERVOUS AROUND CHRISTIANS.'

And, yes, there is a definite reason I ask this of you. And, no, not in a million years would you guess what it is, so don't even bother trying.

Just please respond ASAP. Thank you.

[Canajew]

I never said anything about you. I said Religious Christians make Jews uncomfortable. that's it.


And as a religious Christian, who, in general, tend to make Jews uncomfortable as a class (to a certain extent, I'm not sure we "get" you), you need to be more aware of these sensitivities. Its not that people will dislike you for talking like this, ultimately we know you're supportive. We may be a tad sensitive, but we pick up on things like these.

They sort of make our collective "spider senses" tingle, which makes some feel a tad .. creeped out. And part of the reason for these spidey senses is of course the event which you so flippantly characterized in your opening.

[Canajew]

And, yes, there is a definite reason I ask this of you. And, no, not in a million years would you guess what it is, so don't even bother trying.

You don't think I'M Jesus do you? (couldn't resist)

Or 'cause you have a crush on Alfred and now you think he won't like you and "ohmygod I could just die" unless this gets cleared up?

I give up.

[Alfred]

No need to apologize. However, I still do not see where you (specifically) called me (specifically) nervous around Christians. That is what Alfred said when tattling on you. I asked him to show me exactly where you called me nervous around Christians. I still haven't seen that. What you have written above is that 'Jews, especially secular ones, find religious christians make them nervous.' Alfred said you accused me of that and now you confirmed it, however, you have not made it specific. I NEED TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU CALLED ME 'NERVOUS AROUND CHRISTIANS.'

And, yes, there is a definite reason I ask this of you. And, no, not in a million years would you guess what it is, so don't even bother trying.

Just please respond ASAP. Thank you.


My goodness Elisheba....he said Jews (in general) are nervous around Christians. That is what I was refering to. Don't take every sentence I write as a personal insult. I am just having fun with your exuberance.

NewsGuy: Thank you very much for your compliment. But I still think Ibrodsky is a flaming liberal :) :) :)

Redcake: I have less problem with dual citizenship than dual voting. I just don't think its right to vote in two countries. Call me old fashioned.


All: And if you think my statements are provocative...you should see me over at Ummah.com saying I support Israel and the US in our war against the Islamic nutcases.

They call me more than creepy.

[Alfred]

Or 'cause you have a crush on Alfred and now you think he won't like you and "ohmygod I could just die" unless this gets cleared up?



:) :)

[Alfred]

sorry, I did say that. It has been my experience that Jews, especially secular ones, find religious christians make them nervous. Like they are cheering for you in the hopes you will die at the end for middle earth to be redeemed. And the religious fervour inJesus. I mean, I don't believe in god at all, but the way Jews do torah is far more logical, reasonable and inquisitive than what I perceive to be Chrisatian analytics. And this, coupled with the strength of Christians' convictions, makes the secular among us a bit weired out where such religion from a religious Jew would not (well, amybe a bit, but the degree of "learnedness" and the logical argumentative exercises seem much greater)


I have to admit, that I sometimes feel odd (not nervous) around super zealous born-again Christians. I find it odd when they tell me I don't believe in Jesus when the name of my church is the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-Day Saints. And some of them do tend to tell you that you are going to Hell if you don't believe exactly what they believe in.

I suppose you have the same types in Jewish life and we all know that the Muslims have that type to. The difference is the Jew and Christian version don't cut off your head if you don't agree with them.

I do think the notion that they and other Christians support Israel only because many Jews will die and bring on the Second Coming is bogus however. Even the most zealous born-agains would never think of that rationale.

[MGB8]

Yup....Many religious (and by that, I mean stuck in 1800's poland) Jews do a good Job of making less, or differently religious Jews feel like Cr@p. They're getting better, though, and in general its not the adults or leadership that does that, but the young who build their egos on their religion and religiosity.

[Elisheba]

I never said anything about you. I said Religious Christians make Jews uncomfortable. that's it.


That is what I thought.

Alfred is a liar; plain and simple. He tried to start something by posting that you (specifically) said that I (specifically) am nervous around Christians.

Alfred is dead to me.

[Elisheba]

My goodness Elisheba....he said Jews (in general) are nervous around Christians. That is what I was refering to. Don't take every sentence I write as a personal insult. I am just having fun with your exuberance.

You are a liar: plain and simple. You could see that Canajew and I were beginning to get along just fine and so you posted that he said I (not Jews in general, but ME) felt nervous around Christians.



NewsGuy: Thank you very much for your compliment.

So, that's how it's done. You take in who you perceive as having power. That is so true to form it's almost laughable.

[Elisheba]

You don't think I'M Jesus do you? (couldn't resist)

Or 'cause you have a crush on Alfred and now you think he won't like you and "ohmygod I could just die" unless this gets cleared up?

I give up.


I will tell you via private message only; or, you can just let it go. It is very personal and is not for public viewing.

If there's any crush, and I emphasize the 'if', it would be for you. I despise liars ... Alfred is a liar ... that's easy enough to connect up, right?

[Elisheba]

Then why single out the Jewish lobby as antisemites are prone to do?

You asked that of Alfred. Well, redcake, the answer is obvious: alf is OBVIOUSLY a raving anti-Semite. Almost every one of his pathetically condescending posts reek of the stench of Jew-hatred.

[MGB8]

Alfred has had a tendancy of threatening a lot, reminding Jews of their precarious position and speaking "for the Christian majorities." It is percisely because of the treatment of the Jews by the Christian majorities, who didn't behave all that Christian-like, that Israel was necessary, and that now Israel has Nukes.

[KettleWhistle]

Alfred has had a tendancy of threatening a lot, reminding Jews of their precarious position and speaking "for the Christian majorities." It is percisely because of the treatment of the Jews by the Christian majorities, who didn't behave all that Christian-like, that Israel was necessary, and that now Israel has Nukes.I've known some Christians who'd disagree. Here's one such "gem" from a Baptist web site:


Info on Jews --- Pastor Richardson

1 Th.2:14-16
"... the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."

Those who try to follow the law (i.e., the Jews) are cursed. Gal.3:10

Jesus condemns the Jews for being "the children of them which killed the prophets." Mt.23:31

Jesus says "the children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt.8:12

Every skeptic and nonbeliever (of course, we can include the jews) has "an evil heart of unbelief." Heb.3:12

Whoever denies "that Jesus is the Christ" is a liar and an antichrist. 1 Jn.2:22

Christians are "of God;" everyone else is wicked. 1 Jn.5:19

Every nonchristian is "a deceiver and an antichrist." 2 Jn. 7

In Christ's Love,
Pastor Richardson
.


Gotta love how he signed it too.

[redcake]

With great respect to Newsguy, and his work here, I do think it's incredibly telling that he saw this thread as a good time to come to Alfred's defense. We all know there is an element to some Christian Zionism where the motivations are a little off, because ultimately, they're Christians first, and their priorities will always be instilled in that. I think Alfred unknowingly echoes that tone at times. I'm displeased with comments he made in this thread, but I hardly contribute to this forum with the energy Alfred has.... I just don't think ones activity or reputation on a message board is really tied to the credebility of their thoughts. He's done a poor job backing up his comments without being inciteful at the same time.

His issue with American Jews casting dual votes (and really what are the statistics? How many Israelis are doing this?) was out of left field, irrelevant, and fairly anti-Israel. Columbia, Ecuador, the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Slovakia, Lithuania, Jordan, Lebanon....and over 50 over Countires allow for dual citizenship with the US. It's a right even Palestinian Authority citizens enjoy. Somehow Alfred has decided this is a unique issue to Israel worth condemning in the context of Jewish Nationalism.

Furthermore, let's face facts, while Jews enjoy the support of Christian Zionism, a great deal of them believe that the Bible says the restoration of Jews to the land of Israel will bring Jews to "their true faith" in "their own Messiah", meaning Jesus....and that this will result in cueing up the Second Coming, as a prophecy seperate from the Rapture. Let's not forget that the seeds for early Christian Zionism can be found in works such as Manuel Lacunza's "The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty", where the Spanish Jesuit used a pseudonym and claimed to be a converted Jew. Everyone from Henry Drumond (the father of Christian Zionism), to Hal Lindsey prothesized that Zionism was important so that Jews could reach their apocolyptic fate, in order to welcome the return of Jesus. For some reason Alfred insists that this element of Christian Zionism doesn't exist at all, and never has, even amongst the born again crowd. I mean why not just say it doesn't reflect his own beliefs, or that of the majority of his contemporaries? Is this ignorance or deceit ?

Regardless, I'd like to return this thread back on topic....

Has anyone read the book "Torn at the Roots : Jewish Liberalism in Crisis" by Michael Staub ? It was published by Columbia University Press.

[Mediocrates]

Yup....Many religious (and by that, I mean stuck in 1800's poland) Jews do a good Job of making less, or differently religious Jews feel like Cr@p. They're getting better, though, and in general its not the adults or leadership that does that, but the young who build their egos on their religion and religiosity.


What does that mean? Even the liberal end of Orthodox, OU, doesn't accept Reform or Reconstructionist as Judaism. And only grudgingly accepts Conversative nas Judaism as long as it's not Conservative conversion. It may be a personal matter for some to say otherwise but that would be a pretty uncommon view. They are wonderful kind people but even the Lubavitchers have extremely rigid views of what Judaism is and how it is practiced.

Now if you look at the Satmars for example they believe everyone except them is apikorsim. I have personally got into fights with those bastards over what they've done to other Jews. And let me tell you, if you're a non Satmar Jew and you try to do a business deal with them they will screw you worse than if you were a Christian.

[Mediocrates]

I've known some Christians who'd disagree. Here's one such "gem" from a Baptist web site:

[LINE]
Info on Jews --- Pastor Richardson

1 Th.2:14-16
"... the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:


Gotta love how he signed it too.



Everybody's got their own lunkheads to bear, don't they?

[Mediocrates]

Has anyone read the book "Torn at the Roots : Jewish Liberalism in Crisis" by Michael Staub ? It was published by Columbia University Press.

No what's it say?

[Mediocrates]

You asked that of Alfred. Well, redcake, the answer is obvious: alf is OBVIOUSLY a raving anti-Semite. Almost every one of his pathetically condescending posts reek of the stench of Jew-hatred.

I don't see that. I see someone with very crisp opinions about what being an American is all about. :cool: I picture Alfred like Charlton Heston but with a better smile.

[Canajew]

I agree. Insensitivity and hatred are entirely different things.

[Alfred]

My goodness, I seem to have brought up a hornets nest.


Elisheba:

You need to calm down and have a decaf. You are bouncing over the entire board, taking every word from everyone as a personal attack on you. The Sky is Blue. Now, tell me....how did I just insult you? You are Jewish and Canajew said Christians make Jews nervous....therefore I said in jest that you must get nervous around Christians. I won't argue this point anymore. I hope you and Canajew make up, but you might have totally freaked him out by now. I may be opposite of your views, but I am not a liar....it is the truth that is much more effective. Not that I don't see the truth differently than others.

Redcake:

I wouldn't use George Soros as a role model. I think he is more dangerous to American freedom than Bin Laden. And I did not know that he was Jewish. Please don't tell me that Michael Moore is Jewish or I am going to become a Muslim.

If you re-read my original post I said that I do not favor dual voting for ANY country. So your contention that I am picking on Israelis is false. Just in case you did not understand me again: that includes Mexico, Japan, the rest of South America, Israel, Germany etc. etc. etc.

So let me make sure I understand your position on Christian support for Israel.

1) If we DO support Israel it is ONLY because we want Jesus to return, or we want 1/3 of the Jews to die, or it is because we want all the Jews to get out of America. And by doing so we are anti-semites.

2) If we do NOT support Israel then we are nazi, homophobic anti-semites wanting all the Jews to die in Nazi concentration camps and not have a home of their own. Or we want the Arabs to murder every Jew and push them into the see.

Hmmmm. That leaves me in an interesting position doesn't it? The topic of this thread is "Why has the Left turned against the Jews." It sounds to me like you are trying your best to allienate the Right. Maybe you will get both the Right and the Left turning against you. Some on your side would like that (persecution complex) and some on the Left would like that (pro-Arab fascists) and some on the Right would like that....(I almost said neo nazi, but nazis were socialists, so I can't use that term....hmmm, how about ultra traditionalists?)

MGB8:

How much persecution have you received in your life? Did some kid say you had zits in middle school? We Americans do not know real persecution. Thank Goodness. I only remind Jews of their precarious position when they tell me that all Christians are closet nazis only supporting Israel for the reasons I outlined above. I am not looking for applause I am just trying to educate you guys that if you care about Israel you will stop ragging on Christians and try to form an alliance. That is your choice. NewsGuy gets it as well as some others. I am trying to educate with humor and a bit of pointed discussion. It is my mission to make all you left-wingers born-again right-wingers :) Just joking....neo-cons would do for now.


AJL:

If you believe you are the true church then you tend to think that others are wayward if they are not members of your true church. One could find statements in the Old Testament/Torah saying very similar things. Certainly, you could find even more in the Koran. These same guys say that I am not a "real" Christian. So I ignore them. But these guys do not try to ban your synagog or try to curtail your being able to worship as you see fit....so they are not all that bad.

Medio:

Why thank you!!! Charleton Heston is a personal "hero" of mine, along with Ronaldus Maximus, Theodore Roosevelt and some others. And yes, the ladies do tell me that I have a nice smile.

But remember. Heston WAS Moses. So if you guys know whats good for you, you will listen....or else you may get frogs in your soup. :)

[Alfred]

Oh one last point. And you anti-Alfreds can ponder this.

If I were in Israel on vacation, sunning in some sunny Kibutz; and if the Arabs were to invade and I had the choice to: 1)flee to the nearest airport to get my butt out of there, or: 2) to pick up a rifle and defend the Kibutz; I would choose the latter and defend the Kibutz at the risk of my life.

But then as a homo-phobic, neonazi, insensitive, creepy, lying anti-semite...it would be the only proper thing to do.

:)

[MGB8]

Its not an issue of "nazi" or anything like that...Alfred. And I like Modern Christianity, phrases like "what would Jesus do" and the values that Christianity represents, although the Presbetarian Church's divestment issue really bothers me. I don't even care about those Christians who believe 90% or so of the Jews will be left behind at the end of days....if that happens, it happens...I'm willing to wait and see. But, Jews have come to realize that we cannot rely on Gentiles...it leads to blackmail and bullying - and not necessarily intentional.

I do think that you see a large neo-con contingent among Jews... pretty middle of the road economics and social policies, but very much believing in the greatness that is the United States and defending this wonderful country...for all of its imperfections, and it has many, on the whole, there is no place better on Earth.

[Alfred]

Its not an issue of "nazi" or anything like that...Alfred. And I like Modern Christianity, phrases like "what would Jesus do" and the values that Christianity represents, although the Presbetarian Church's divestment issue really bothers me. I don't even care about those Christians who believe 90% or so of the Jews will be left behind at the end of days....if that happens, it happens...I'm willing to wait and see. But, Jews have come to realize that we cannot rely on Gentiles...it leads to blackmail and bullying - and not necessarily intentional.

I do think that you see a large neo-con contingent among Jews... pretty middle of the road economics and social policies, but very much believing in the greatness that is the United States and defending this wonderful country...for all of its imperfections, and it has many, on the whole, there is no place better on Earth.


I agree. Some others in the past have hinted that most Christians are closet nazis. As I am half German (100 years ago) being called a nazi makes me either want to hide in shame or click my heels and salute. It depends on the day. :)

But your points are well taken. I would say that American Gentiles are a heck of a lot better than European Gentiles. After 200+ years of American history you probably can relax a little bit around around us Americano Gentiles. But I still wouldn't trust the European bunch.

[Elisheba]

Elisheba:

You need to calm down and have a decaf. You are bouncing over the entire board, taking every word from everyone as a personal attack on you. The Sky is Blue. Now, tell me....how did I just insult you? You are Jewish and Canajew said Christians make Jews nervous....therefore I said in jest that you must get nervous around Christians. I won't argue this point anymore. I hope you and Canajew make up, but you might have totally freaked him out by now. I may be opposite of your views, but I am not a liar....it is the truth that is much more effective. Not that I don't see the truth differently than others.

1. Don't tell me what to do.

2. You deliberately distorted what Canajew said in order to stir things up.

3. Yes: you are a liar and that is probably your best attribute.

[Eugeenie]

Its not an issue of "nazi" or anything like that...Alfred. And I like Modern Christianity, phrases like "what would Jesus do" .


This may be one of those evangelical Christian sayings, but you could probably do a lot worse than really asking what Jesus would do. I mean, what would Jesus do except what Jesus always did, which is to remind fellow Jews about stuff like honesty, humility, sincerity, or fellowship, and warn them against hypocricy, ostentation, duplicitousness, envy and such?

[Canajew]

This may be one of those evangelical Christian sayings, but you could probably do a lot worse than really asking what Jesus would do. I mean, what would Jesus do except what Jesus always did, which is to remind fellow Jews about stuff like honesty, humility, sincerity, or fellowship, and warn them against hypocricy, ostentation, duplicitousness, envy and such?
but of course Jesus also chose self imoliation rather than fighting back. Not always the best decision.

When will people start asking "what should I do given circumstances in order to live up to my own moral standards while preserving those things I hold dear" rather than depending on what OTHER people say for cues on their behaviour.

[Mediocrates]

This may be one of those evangelical Christian sayings, but you could probably do a lot worse than really asking what Jesus would do. I mean, what would Jesus do except what Jesus always did, which is to remind fellow Jews about stuff like honesty, humility, sincerity, or fellowship, and warn them against hypocricy, ostentation, duplicitousness, envy and such?

Or in the case of the actual history he would warn them about the evils of Hellenization and the corroding fires of assimilation.

[MichaelC]

I have been very hesitant to post in this thread as I have history with Alfred that both of us would probably rather just let go. I was going to refrain from making any comment and just let the thread go where it was going, but Newsguy’s post “out of nowhere” and Alfred’s post #129 did it for me. Newsguy simply dispensed with everyone else’s view but Alfred’s and, from where I’m observing, this is a rather odd intrusion. And Alfred….well, what can I say…..he just kept on doing what he does best: condescension.

I don’t know what Newsguy actually knows about your posting history Alfred, but this is the third occasion when I have witnessed you embroiled with Jews who are calling you on your condescension and crude metaphors concerning things Jewish. And you are handling it in the same manner that you always have: more condescension and unwarranted superiority. How Newsguy manages to overlook this aspect of your “style”, I do not know.

When we crossed swords before, one of the comments that I made to you was that when you first came to this board you were quickly embroiled in the sort of thing I am witnessing in this thread. Your posting during the “Passion” debacle had the same tone.

Now here you are again, at odds with a number of Jews who are trying to tell you something and once again, their efforts seem wasted on you. What makes it worse is that I suspect you will now take Newsguy’s comments as ex cathedra and continue to ignore the proletariat (as it were), as you do whenever you are at odds with a group here.

I realize this is very critical and will obviously raise your ire, but the observation needed to be made. Something is going on that you simply refuse to see. Newsguy nothwithstanding.

By the way, Elisheba, aside from the wrench to my heart that you would need to play such a “card”, I got a hoot from your snappy rejoinder:


Originally posted by Elisheba

I'd really like to, but I can't: I'm playing the wheelchair card now.

[redcake]

Okay, Look Alfred, do not get it twisted... you have absolutely NO understanding of my stance on Christian Zionists. Your lack of understanding of my position, along with some assumptions you've made, suggest you should put that chip on your shoulder aside, and try some reading comprehension.

Your tone here is that you're "helping" the poor Jews, and that they'd be doomed without you and Christians "like you". You're so black and white it's obscene. You refuse to admit to a curious element amongst SOME Christian Zionists, so in your mind it means I must think ALL Christian Zionists are up to no good. Are you truly that simple minded? Perhaps that's your best excuse for why you play into the time old antisemetic assertion that Jews have a persecution complex. You've said it, oh I don't know, in nearly every post you've made in this thread. You seem to believe it strongly. You yourself were the first one to speak of prophecies in relation to Israel, right? I haven't been following your posts on this board, Alfred, but from this thread, it's apparent you have some major, major problems.

I see you slighting Jewish Tzadaka fundraising while remaining ignorant to figures like George Soros (and no I'm not a fan of his, but the fact remains: the largest single person donor in the US is an outspoken Jew, self hating or not). You still haven't explained your inappropriate finger pointing about dual voting rights in Israel, but you made it an issue, acting as if it justified previous negative comments you mad about Jews. Surely you're aware this criticsm is one American Jews routinely hear from those that call them Fifth Columnists, right? If it's a problem you admit is worldwide, then why chose to single out Israel? You still haven't answered that one. I have duel citizenship, but I reside in the US. I CAN NOT vote in an Israeli election because I'm not on Israeli soil. So once again, you are misinformed about a point you've used to slight Jews with.

While you claim support for Israel and Jews you make back handed comments that parrot our enemies...and we will call you on it...because you obviously just don't know any better. Even your threatening rhetoric about turning everyone against Jews, "creating" enemies by alienating "friends" even when they make the same damaging accusations; is just the same garbage Jews hear every day. If we don't take your ignorant criticism like a dog, then we are sealing our own fate, right? Take your self righteous pity and shove it.

[Alfred]

Your tone here is that you're "helping" the poor Jews, and that they'd be doomed without you and Christians "like you". You're so black and white it's obscene.

I see you slighting Jewish Tzadaka fundraising while remaining ignorant to figures like George Soros (and no I'm not a fan of his, but the fact remains: the largest single person donor in the US is an outspoken Jew, self hating or not).

You still haven't explained your inappropriate finger pointing about dual voting rights in Israel, but you made it an issue, acting as if it justified previous negative comments you mad about Jews. Surely you're aware this criticsm is one American Jews routinely hear from those that call them Fifth Columnists, right? If it's a problem you admit is worldwide, then why chose to single out Israel? You still haven't answered that one. I have duel citizenship, but I reside in the US. I CAN NOT vote in an Israeli election because I'm not on Israeli soil. So once again, you are misinformed about a point you've used to slight Jews with.

While you claim support for Israel and Jews you make back handed comments that parrot our enemies...and we will call you on it...because you obviously just don't know any better. Even your threatening rhetoric about turning everyone against Jews, "creating" enemies by alienating "friends" even when they make the same damaging accusations; is just the same garbage Jews hear every day. If we don't take your ignorant criticism like a dog, then we are sealing our own fate, right? Take your self righteous pity and shove it.


My goodness. You, MichaelC and Elisheba are so......emotional. As I have nothing better to do for the next 10 minutes I will answer your, ah....points.

I understand it is a very difficult concept for you Redcake...but I like people to vote in one country or another. You see the word Israel amongst a bunch of other countries and feel persecuted (there is that word again). Here is something from another thread:

"Mark Zober, chairman of Democrats Abroad in Israel, said he has no firm figures but estimates that roughly 100,000 Americans in Israel are eligible to vote in the upcoming U.S. election, and that roughly 14,000 were registered in 2000."

Oh my gosh! There ARE Israeli citizens voting in the American election!!! And you know? There are probably 1 Million Americans voting in the Mexican election too. (Now I said the word Israel...slow your breathing down and notice that I also said the word MEXICO...) There are many cases with other countries and citizens, which I have said at least 5 times. My position is that if you are American you vote in the American election and not in a foreign election. If you are Mexican, Israeli, German, Spanish etc. you vote in the Mexican, Israeli, German, Spanish elections and NOT in the American elections. I hope that ends this issue.


George Soros is an enemy of America and I would love to see his donor list. The Soviets made big "donations" too. Not to say he doesn't contribute to some worthy causes. Stalin and Hitler liked little kids too. IMHO if Soros wins his battle we will all lose.

Regarding "back handed comments that parrot our enemies" I have a feeling that anything I say sounds like I am an enemy. It depends on how you receive it. If you are tuned in on hearing "enemy" every time you hear something you don't like then you make it so.

Fifth Column? Hmmm. Well, there is a big Israeli lobby, but there are many other lobbies too. The Neo-Cons (a lot of whom are Jewish) are certainly pro-Israel and would like us to bomb Syria, Iran and everyone else who threatens Israel...but I kind of agree with them, so what does that make me?) I believe there was a Jewish/Communist Fifth Column during the 1930's-1950's, but that pretty much died after Khruschev made his announcement about the sins of Stalin. There are a whole bunch of Fifth Column liberals in this country who would turn over our soverignty to the UN tomorrow if they could...but that includes people from all over the US and Europe, both Jew and Gentile. So no, I do not think most Jews today are part of a vast Left wing fifth column.

MichaelC:

What can I say? Long time no hear.... it is not hard to become "embroiled" as you say, with folks who want to hear what they want to hear. But never fear, I am having a bit of fun that's all. As soon as they stop calling me names I will probably tire of it.

But if you really analyze what I have said it is:

1. People should pick a country and vote in that country (that statement brought terrible angst and knashing of teeth).

2. The Left doesn't like Israel anymore (that was fairly well received).

3. Christians are not closet-nazis and generally support Israel (that also brought much angst as I did not define exactly how many Christians felt this way versus did not feel this way...the word 'generally' apparently did not suffice...I must in the future be more precise).

4. Christians may become the only REAL friends of Israel. (This REALLY upset some on this board...how dare I say that...despite us pretty much agreeing that the Left and Europe was no longer a friend...I guess they are thinking that the Martians were left out of my statement)

5. That Israel would be much worse off without American Right wing/Christian support (this also caused a few panties to bunch. But I guess we could try it and see what happens. I could be wrong you know.)

Let's see...what else ticked the everyone off?

Oh yes, Elisheba says nah, nah, nah "don't tell me what to do!" :)

(PS: I don't think she likes me anymore)


Oh, by the way MichaelC...you say they are trying to tell me something which I am not reading. Aside from their personal insults; could you please give me a quick 1,2,3 of what they are trying to tell me? Perhaps I cannot see through the "creep", "lier", "shove it" and other lady-like language to get their true points.

But alas, this board it to share concepts and ideas. I am certainly learning a lot on the whole.

[KettleWhistle]

AJL:

If you believe you are the true church then you tend to think that others are wayward if they are not members of your true church. One could find statements in the Old Testament/Torah saying very similar things. Certainly, you could find even more in the Koran. These same guys say that I am not a "real" Christian. So I ignore them. But these guys do not try to ban your synagog or try to curtail your being able to worship as you see fit....so they are not all that bad.
They are not bad at all. They told somebody at their site that they even let the Jews post on their forum because the Jews control the media. I just thought it was funny.

As side note, years ago, I used to have a bumper sticker that said, " A convicted Christ-killer Jew." So I'm not offended at that a bit.

[redcake]

And when all else fails... call the Jews emotional! You're classic... and boring.

Can you argue a point without getting off on how many feathers you can ruffle at the same time? You posed a question, and the majority of answers came back to your disliking, unfit for your agenda... boo hoo.

Once again - Your original point had nothing to do with Mexico, or any other country besides Israel..in fact it had nothing to do with the conversation. The problem isn't your issue with the right to dual voting, the problem is you took an issue you have with US policy, and introduced it as a point of contention with Israeli Jews. You interjected this comment in the context of a defense to my claim that many Christian Zionists were originally motivated by the idea of shoving all the Jews on an island, and self serving prophecies involving the apocolypse, and mass conversions... and you thought it was witty to mention that Jews had better not take their right to dual citizenship, and absentee voting with them.

Now let's go back and find out what you said that's truly frightening and unacceptable.... ready?


Alfred:
"The Jews of the world legitimately played the victim card very well after the Holocaust. They still do in Hollywood with a Holocaust movie every other month."

"There have been lots of folks here in the cosy USA who were not effected by the Holocaust, yet who play the card everyday."

"Jews who were directly effected by the Holocaust can play the victim card all day long and I respect it, "

[MichaelC]

My goodness. You, MichaelC and Elisheba are so......emotional. As I have nothing better to do for the next 10 minutes I will answer your, ah....points.
This is precisely what we mean when we refer to your condescension. You seen to think if you use it at every opportunity it will somehow prove your, ah.....points.

In your opening sentence you have played the "condescension card" quite enough for the rest of this post, but I have no doubt that as I continue reading, there will be plenty more. Are you so use to talking down to people in that manner that you are unaware that you're even doing it?

[MichaelC]

Oh, by the way MichaelC...you say they are trying to tell me something which I am not reading. Aside from their personal insults; could you please give me a quick 1,2,3 of what they are trying to tell me? Perhaps I cannot see through the "creep", "lier", "shove it" and other lady-like language to get their true points.
First of all, this request for examples is baloney. I have never thought that you were lacking in intelligence and this type of pretense that you don't really understand it when so many are upset with you is disingenuous and just part of the "fun" you're always claiming to have while you set people off and then go right on pushing every button you can locate. I am quite sure you know exactly what your problem is, you just haven't the humility to back off when you irritate enough people to cause the foofaraws you are so "entertained by".

As far as the negative appelations being applied to you, I don't find them that far off the mark. You of course, will feel superior to those whose condescension and sarcasm levels are not as well practiced as your own and who simply give it to you in smaller bites.

Do you really feel all innocent and put upon? You do this frequently enough that I cannot understand why you assign innocence to your positions and imply that the many people who are annoyed with you are entirely incorrect in their assessment of your sterling character.

[Alfred]

This is precisely what we mean when we refer to your condescension. You seen to think if you use it at every opportunity it will somehow prove your, ah.....points.

In your opening sentence you have played the "condescension card" quite enough for the rest of this post, but I have no doubt that as I continue reading, there will be plenty more. Are you so use to talking down to people in that manner that you are unaware that you're even doing it?

Oh yes, I am aware I am doing it. I use it instead of calling people names. So instead of saying so and so is an airhead, I say "I will try to make this simple" etc. etc. You and other's method is to call people names, which is ok, just not my style. I guess we are both guilty at times.

Ok. I will turn off my condescension card for the rest of this post.

RedCake:

You want to know what I meant by the sentences in your quote. This is what I was trying to say:

After WW2 the Jews of the US and other countries went to the world and attempted to convince the US and European leaders in the UN to support the idea of a State of Israel. Their most persuasive argument was the Holocaust, and the Jews accused the US and Europe of turning their back on the European Jews in their time of need. This made the US and UN feel guilty over their inaction during that time period. When the vote came, the State of Israel won.

Using the "card" analogy; the Jews played several cards during this game of politics. One was the "victim card"...another was a "end to the Jewish issue" card, which was that by re-forming the State of Israel you would finally have a place to put all the Jews that no one seemed to be able to accept into their culture (the Europeans liked that idea of course). I am sure that the Jewish politicans played other cards too....such as having a democracy in the Middle East versus the Russian influence in the area etc.

As the above is historical fact (I have left out a lot of course) I believe your concern is over the words "card." I think you take that as a negative. I do not. You play your cards and you win or lose. That is all I mean.

What I mean by people today playing a victim card when they don't deserve it, is with individuals who essentially say " millions of Jews died in the Holocaust, and I am a Jew, therefore you cannot criticize me in any way without being an anti-semite and partialy to blame for what happened." You hear alot of that (not those exact words of course). In fact, when people criticize Israel's current policies they are often called anti-semite....then you usually hear how the "Jews suffered" brought up. That to me is hypocrisy.

Let me give you an example. During The Passion arguments I often heard that a movie of Christ should not be allowed because it would cause Christians to hate Jews...and that the Holocaust was proof that Christians were a hair's breath away from doing it again. And that people who went to watch this movie were anti-semites, and that the history was fake anyway.
The guys from the ADL and JDL also tend to be free with Holocaust analogies in today's world. Most of these guys saying these things were not in Germany and some did not even have direct relatives over there. Holocaust movies come out on a regular basis to reinforce what happened. And everytime they come out you have many so-called leaders telling how current politics will lead to the same thing. They are playing a card in their argument.

Finally, when a Holocaust survivor speaks, I listen and have sympathy. Even if their argument is not related to what happened. When a third generation guy tries to make me feel guilty for something that happened 10-15 years before I was born, I do not.

I have the same approach for Mexicans, Blacks, Irish, Armenians and others who have suffered persecution in the past.

Now, disagree with my analysis but 1) I have not laid out a secret agenda, and 2) I was not trying to be snotty.

[redcake]

My concern was never with the word "card" but nice try on the swirve. I could care less what semantics you use, you're still an idiot who evokes the Holocaust to indite Jews.

Holocaust victims do not have to "play" anything. Ever. Nor should they ever be accused of it in generalizations like yours. Got it? Your "Hollywood is run by Jews, and they make a Holocaust movie every month to exploit the victim syndrome that many Jews are guilty of" need to stop, get it? When you Christians stop bitching about the death of Jesus 200 generations later, they maybe you can talk about hypocrisy. I could care less about the Passion of Christ as a film, but obviously you're desperate to relive that conversation. As I pointed out before, most Jews alive today are first generation ancestry to the victims of the Holocaust, and this tragedy haunts every living Jew with every swastika spray painted on a wall, and every like yourself making intolerable comments.

Now you can respond DIRECTLY to my comments or don't bother responding at all. You played yourself... you're through. I'm not responding for your sake, I'm responding for any Christians reading this board, so they can learn from your idiocy. If Newsguy finds your poor attempts at being divisive condusive to healthy discussion, then fine - tell Jews how they exploit the Holocaust some more... it's rather charming.

Finally, your brand of Zionism is worthless as long as you celebrate Israel's dependency on Christians and non-Jews.

[Alfred]

My concern was never with the word "card" but nice try on the swirve. I could care less what semantics you use, you're still an idiot who evokes the Holocaust to indite Jews.

Holocaust victims do not have to "play" anything. Ever. Nor should they ever be accused of it in generalizations like yours. Got it? Your "Hollywood is run by Jews, and they make a Holocaust movie every month to exploit the victim syndrome that many Jews are guilty of" need to stop, get it? When you Christians stop bitching about the death of Jesus 200 generations later, they maybe you can talk about hypocrisy. I could care less about the Passion of Christ as a film, but obviously you're desperate to relive that conversation. As I pointed out before, most Jews alive today are first generation ancestry to the victims of the Holocaust, and this tragedy haunts every living Jew with every swastika spray painted on a wall, and every like yourself making intolerable comments.

Now you can respond DIRECTLY to my comments or don't bother responding at all. You played yourself... you're through. I'm not responding for your sake, I'm responding for any Christians reading this board, so they can learn from your idiocy. If Newsguy finds your poor attempts at being divisive condusive to healthy discussion, then fine - tell Jews how they exploit the Holocaust some more... it's rather charming.

Finally, your brand of Zionism is worthless as long as you celebrate Israel's dependency on Christians and non-Jews.



It is hard to have a healthy discussion when you obviously need medication. You go ahead and believe and do what you want. Just ignore me from now on, it would be better for your blood pressure. I am sorry to have gotten you so disturbed. Oh, and we "Christians" don't bitch about the death of Jesus; we honor his death as a willing sacrifice. But I don't want to disturb you again.

[Elisheba]

It is hard to have a healthy discussion when you obviously need medication. You go ahead and believe and do what you want. Just ignore me from now on, it would be better for your blood pressure. I am sorry to have gotten you so disturbed. Oh, and we "Christians" don't bitch about the death of Jesus; we honor his death as a willing sacrifice. But I don't want to disturb you again.

Rashomon! The post you directed the above dreck at was the post that caused me to add redcake to my buddy list.

Oh, and thanks for such devotion to that nice Jewish boy you call Jesus. I'm sure his parents, Joseph and Mary, are just kvelling!

[Alfred]

They are not bad at all. They told somebody at their site that they even let the Jews post on their forum because the Jews control the media. I just thought it was funny.

As side note, years ago, I used to have a bumper sticker that said, " A convicted Christ-killer Jew." So I'm not offended at that a bit.


You had a lot of daring to put that bumper sticker on. If you lived in the Bible Belt you probably wouldn't have a car anymore :)

The most obnoxious bumper sticker I saw was actually a license plate from California that said ISUEYOU...it was a nice Mercedes and the guy had some sticker or another that let you know he was a lawyer on the bumper.

I came SOOOOOOO close to taking my key and running it down the side of the car. Oh well, I chickened out.

[Elisheba]

Oh well, I chickened out.

Of course you did.



Personally, I love the bumper sticker: God Protect Me From Your Followers

[redcake]

Alfred: "The Jews of the world legitimately played the victim card very well after the Holocaust. They still do in Hollywood with a Holocaust movie every other month."

"There have been lots of folks here in the cosy USA who were not effected by the Holocaust, yet who play the card everyday."


These are antisemetic statements. You're the disturbed one here Alfred, and there's not a single medication in the world that can save you from that.

[Elisheba]

Alfred: "The Jews of the world legitimately played the victim card very well after the Holocaust. They still do in Hollywood with a Holocaust movie every other month."

"There have been lots of folks here in the cosy USA who were not effected by the Holocaust, yet who play the card everyday."


These are antisemetic statements. You're the disturbed one here Alfred, and there's not a single medication in the world that can save you from that.

um

cyanide?

[KettleWhistle]

This may be one of those evangelical Christian sayings, but you could probably do a lot worse than really asking what Jesus would do. I mean, what would Jesus do except what Jesus always did, which is to remind fellow Jews about stuff like honesty, humility, sincerity, or fellowship, and warn them against hypocricy, ostentation, duplicitousness, envy and such?
A late reply on this one, but it's a really good point. Reminded me of the first time I went to the Wailing Wall, and got greeted by all the beggars. One of them actually cursed at me when I didn't give any time of the day. The whole pettiness of that was quite appaling, and really reminded me of the story of Jesus at the Temple.

[Emunah]

Outside of a couple of thousand skinheads; the only reason the Jews are the enemy of the Right is because they are in general VERY prominent Leftists. Otherwise most Righties do not have a problem with Jews (as a religious cultural group), and in fact are Israel's biggest supporters.

It's that Leftist disease that we detest.

And lest some protest about my assertion that Jews are very prominent Leftists....I give you our own Elisheba, who picked at random, admits to having a Social Services Mom and a Labor Union organizer Dad, and a house full of Lefties.

:)

But hopefully that will turn around some day.


I am sorry to say that this is not really true. I live in the South, I deal with anti-semitism everyday...from the RIGHT!! The Left makes me sick with their blatancy, but the Right makes me sick with their secrecy and their patronizing "Chosen People" line, which is what they tell you before they try to get permission to take your kids to the skating rink where they tell them about "hell" and Jesus as a Rabbi that saw God. I've sat and listened to technical students discuss the "Jews", some Arabs talking to rednecks, and the Rednecks Righties join the Arabs in their hate speech! The right is no friend to Jews, but they do need to keep some of us living so they can have their rapture thing happen. Otherwise, we are a different kind of "colored" person.

[Emunah]

Okay, men/women, I got only to page 9. Please don't take this wrong, but you all mostly agree with each other, and if you don't think so, go to a Republican or Democrat political board and see. I go to both, and it's giving me an ulcer:). Everytime I think the Republicans are right, I go talk to them and it sends me running away fast. I try to talk to Democrats, but they seem to have gone stark raving mad too. Somewhere there is this group of people called "moderate" and they do not follow the party line, I'm just in search of them.

I am here because I am a social libertarian, domestic liberal and foreign policy hawk, and like Elisheba I am heartbroken over the betrayal of the Left and I want to know what to do about it, because I believe the Arabs are winning the propaganda war. The Pat Buchanan right is just as bad! What is it with humanity, they just can't let three generations go by without attacking the Jew or what?

I like you all. I am not mad at any of you. I am not insulting any of you. None of you make me nervous. None of you are creepy. I don't care to parse the English (or any other) language enough to have a discussion about nationalism and zionism, I'm both. I just want to know why the Left (joining the isolationist right) has turned into a bunch of crazy anti-semites when the Arabs would very much like to undo every single thing they believe in?

[Eugeenie]

I just want to know why the Left (joining the isolationist right) has turned into a bunch of crazy anti-semites when the Arabs would very much like to undo every single thing they believe in?



Could it be because they don't have heart?

I'm more than ready for that third party, myself -- one that jetisons the lunatic fringes at either end. Problem is, when was the last time you heard about an uprising of angry moderates?

[MGB8]

There is an old line:

The (American) left loves the Jews but hates Israel, while the right loves Israel but hates the Jews.

Its an exagerration, of course, but there is a lot of truth to it.

Meanwhile, the reality is that Jews don't have a real friend in either group, in the sense that there are other agendas, and Jews aren't all that important and can (and will) be sacrificed. Hence, even from the perspective of an American, where things are better for Jews than in any other Gentile nation on Earth - the need for ISRAEL.

[Mediocrates]

"The right hates the Jews, the left hates Israel" - Elie Wiesel

[Emunah]

Could it be because they don't have heart?

I'm more than ready for that third party, myself -- one that jetisons the lunatic fringes at either end. Problem is, when was the last time you heard about an uprising of angry moderates?

You really are good Eugeenie ;)

They still have heart, but they are doing all they can to rid themselves of that problem :p

The last time there was an uprising of angry moderates was at the start (not the end, but the start) of the Draft Perot movement. People took to calling that the "radical middle". That was mostly focused on the USA domestic policy and I don't remember much else, but all of the people I met in that draft movment were moderates.

Maybe it would be a better idea to ask the Democrats to quit accepting as a given, that the Peace and Freedom Party, Socialist Workers Party and the Greens are any more acceptable to them than the Nazi Party is to the Republicans.

In my experience, the Dem's are pretty much moderate but the vocal idiots are not even Democrats! They are a truly scary green of Left Wing minor Parties.

No hope of saving them if they are intent on believing that's part of their base!

[Mediocrates]

There is a big difference between Populism which is usually a cover story for either crazy politics or outright fascism, and the 'Radical Middle' as it's called here. In fact there is a small movement called the 'Radical Middle' here in states, you might want to google.

[Alfred]

There is an old line:

The (American) left loves the Jews but hates Israel, while the right loves Israel but hates the Jews.

Its an exagerration, of course, but there is a lot of truth to it.

Meanwhile, the reality is that Jews don't have a real friend in either group, in the sense that there are other agendas, and Jews aren't all that important and can (and will) be sacrificed. Hence, even from the perspective of an American, where things are better for Jews than in any other Gentile nation on Earth - the need for ISRAEL.



A question. If the Right hates Jews, as Wiesel says, do you think it is because the Right hates Jews as a religious/cultural group, or does the Right hate the "social justice" crusades the Jews typically champion?

I am speaking of the American Right versus European Right...which may be what Wiesel was referring to in the first place, as I do not see much hatred of Jews in this country.

By the way. Anyone other than a born-again or good olde Southern Baptist is in trouble in the South....so don't feel tooooooo persecuted :)

(PS: if you are a damm Yankee then you have two strikes against you already...then add a non-Southern Baptist or Born Again and you are in deep do-do)

[Roland]

A question. If the Right hates Jews, as Wiesel says, do you think it is because the Right hates Jews as a religious/cultural group, or does the Right hate the "social justice" crusades the Jews typically champion?

I am speaking of the American Right versus European Right...which may be what Wiesel was referring to in the first place, as I do not see much hatred of Jews in this country.

They (European Right = this side of the threshold to illegal facism, naziism and open anti-semitism; a crowded place, sometimes hard to see the line beneath their feet) don't differentiate "religious" form "cultural" at all - not even if they could manage to spell it.
They just hate jews.
They don't even know jews personally, sometimes.
(But that seems not so unusual to me, since I don't know jews personally, too).
I'd like to know more about the "social justice" crusades the Jews typically champion - I've never heared that before.

[Gilgamesh]

A question. If the Right hates Jews, as Wiesel says, do you think it is because the Right hates Jews as a religious/cultural group, or does the Right hate the "social justice" crusades the Jews typically champion?


And which "social justice" campaign are you talking about? Cause, there are Jews on the full spectrum of the political culture in America. Both on the far left, AND the far right.

It is quite insulting you choose to ignore the great works of people like Milton Friedman (who won the noble prize for economics) and the writer-philosopher Ayn Rand, to name only few. Both were most "Right wing" in respect for the soviets and the economical convictions of the left.

You can check the name of famous Lieberitarians and plaese count howmeny JEWISH thinkers made majore contributions to that ideological philosophy.

My own branch of Zionsim is quite Right wing in each and every aspect, and you know me quite well by now.

As for other ideas other then economics, that may concern the left and right in America... Jews seem leftist because this is our philosphy... indevudual lieberties, personal responisiblity, saveing of human rights in all costs... but then again, it is only a generalization.

Jews did gave full support to the "civil rights movement", and were very simpathetic toward the American blacks, since always. Because, this was the right thing to do. (untill the Nation of Islam gathered so much force and became so much anti semetic, that the American Jew-Blacks relations formed some distance).

[Alfred]

It is quite insulting you choose to ignore the great works of people like Milton Friedman (noble prize winner) and the writer-philosopher Ayn Rand, to name only few.



Well I do not want to insult you, so I will do as you ask.

"A question. If the Right hates Jews, as Wiesel says, do you think it is because the Right hates Jews as a religious/cultural group, or does the Right hate the "social justice" crusades the Jews typically champion, or do they hate Jews because of Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand?

Wiesel said it....I didn't. I just want to know why Wiesel thinks the Right hates Jews.. That is all I am asking. We have already talked about the Left hating Jews. Intead of getting insulted, perhaps you can offer reasons why the Right hates Jews (as Wiesel says).

[Gilgamesh]

Well I do not want to insult you, so I will do as you ask.

"A question. If the Right hates Jews, as Wiesel says, do you think it is because the Right hates Jews as a religious/cultural group, or does the Right hate the "social justice" crusades the Jews typically champion, or do they hate Jews because of Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand? My answer is for neither reasons. The right hate Jews for pure anti semetic reasons. The fact Jews exist, even as a foggy idea cooked up in the minds of Right haters is more the enough for them. As long as they keep thier ideas for themselves and avoid touching me or my brotherens, I don't care about them.


Wiesel said it....I didn't. I just want to know why Wiesel thinks the Right hates Jews.. That is all I am asking. We have already talked about the Left hating Jews. Intead of getting insulted, perhaps you can offer reasons why the Right hates Jews (as Wiesel says). For this you'll have to ask Wiesel. He is entitled for his own opinions, just like any body else. He is not my guru or Rabbi. He does not do MY thinking by my own. For however great respect I have for him, he doesn't represent me in any way.

I believe he talks about the traditional far right in Europe. The ideological background for the vaious Racist and Superemicist European (and American) far right creatures... those that should be put down the way my sig says.

[Alfred]

The right hate Jews for pure anti semetic reasons. The fact Jews exist, even as a foggy idea cooked up in the minds of Right haters is more the enough for them.

I still don't understand why the Right hates Jews....for pure anti-semitic reasons??? That is like saying the Right hates Jews because the Right hates Jews.

There has to be a reason one would think. The Right doesn't hate Hindus...or Buddists...or Russians...or Argentines...or Greeks...or the Welsh. I don't even think the Right hates Muslims.

As a member of "the Right" I believe it is important for me to know. I am only half playing with you on this. I hear this so much I would like to know why you all think the Right hates Jews.

[Gilgamesh]

I still don't understand why the Right hates Jews....for pure anti-semitic reasons??? That is like saying the Right hates Jews because the Right hates Jews.

There has to be a reason one would think. The Right doesn't hate Hindus...or Buddists...or Russians...or Argentines...or Greeks...or the Welsh. I don't even think the Right hates Muslims.

As a member of "the Right" I believe it is important for me to know. I am only half playing with you on this. I hear this so much I would like to know why you all think the Right hates Jews.

"The Right" is a too broad a term. I agree, "the Right" you are talking about is not the same "right" I was talking about. I am talking about the "Far right" of the neo-nazis and superemists ect... not on "The Right" i.e. Republican party and affiliated organizations and churches.

Rupublican party right untill BUSH JN and the 9-11, was considerered RELATIVELY anti Israel, due to the influance of the pro Arab oil lobby. It has changed on 9-11. The oil lobby lost his grip, and the far left pulled the political culture to "understand" the terrorists motives for hating America...

So we are talking on a new world right now... politicly speaking of course...

I suppose the far right hates Jews because they think we Jews are most powerful of their enemies... but fact of the matter is, that the far right hate any body who is not of their stock, including Indians, Korean, Blacks, Chinees...

For anti semetism itself... there is no explainable rational reasoning. Other people on similar pressures as we Jews experianced, have all vanished and assimilated. We Jews survived. Other nations had lands and armies to push their interests, while we Jews were landless and powerless. Things changed only due to Zionism, where we are a nation like any other... only better in some aspects... what draws more hate toward us from the far left as well as the far right.

[Mediocrates]

Why are the Frenchonistas soooo quiet about the US announcement to withdraw 50% of its troop force from Europe in the next 10 years? I mean if their goal was to remove the Great Satan from the Middle East, why not Germany?

[MGB8]

Alfred,

Until very recently, Jews weren't allowed in many country clubs, couldn't get into many fraternities, couldn't move into certain neighborhoods, couldn't get into certain Jobs or professions, etc. etc. etc.

This was a product not of the left, but of the old-school right, including some anti-semetic (not so) Christian groups.

Do you think that this group, and these sentiments, have just gone away? They are alive and well in certain "paleo-conservative" groups. Fortunately, these groups are less and less prominent, but these groups are still very powerful, well represented, and have spokespeople like Robert Novak, James Baker, Pat Buchanon, etc. etc. - who say some good things, but still carry around this bagage.

[Roland]

Why are the Frenchonistas soooo quiet about the US announcement to withdraw 50% of its troop force from Europe in the next 10 years? I mean if their goal was to remove the Great Satan from the Middle East, why not Germany?
:confused: What do you mean "why not Germany"?
The U.S. plan to remove 70,000 troops (1.st tank and 1.st infantry divison(?)) out of here. Loads of good friends and customers . :(
The locals are still shocked. And that only months after our own plans to reduce army-garrisons. Bad luck for some areas.

[Mediocrates]

:confused: What do you mean "why not Germany"?
The U.S. plan to remove 70,000 troops (1.st tank and 1.st infantry divison(?)) out of here. Loads of good friends and customers . :(
The locals are still shocked. And that only months after our own plans to reduce army-garrisons. Bad luck for some areas.


Well that's certainly true but I would have to say that your own government should have got in front of this issue years ago. For instance in South Korea (RoK) the current administration ran on the 'Sunshine Policy' platform that linked better relations with the north with a reduction of US troops in the south. When the US announced a force realignment plan 2 years ago it suddenly dawned on the RoK that backfilling that US presence would increase the RoK's defence budget by more than 8 billion dollars or 50% of the current spending. So the RoK and the US worked out a mutually acceptable bilateral plan. It seems self serving tha the German government couldn't see this happening and didn't plan for it, after all since the Reagan years the relationship between European countries and US strategic and tactical forces could be described at best, frictional. With the end of the Cold War the rationale for keeping a large US contingent there is logically less. Keep in mind that the operational doctrine of the US forward structure in Germany was that it simply could not confront the Warsaw Pact force structure with equally matched conventional forces. It relied on a tactical nuclear option to backfill a 4 or 5 to 1 conventionally deployed force inferiority. But by the late 1980's there was almost zero public support for a forward deployed tactical nuclear force on the ground in Europe (coincident with a French decision to remove its own land based nuclear force and rely instread on naval and air nuclear strike power. At the same time EU states began an implied build down of all their militaries. This is where the notion of the EU RRF (Rapid Response Force) came from - a multilateral force deployed to various brush wars and hot spots around the world as an extension of EU foreign policy initiatives. Not defence and certainly not defence from Russia.

For better or worse it seems that the Germans should have been awake to all of this and planned for a gradual withdrawal on their own instead of waiting for a political moment to be outraged.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php?artid=9772

Israel Low On U.S. Jews’ Radar
Suprising finding in new poll that shows strong support for Kerry.

James D. BesserJames D. Besser - Washington Correspondent

Kerry tops Bush by more than 3-to-1, but 18 percent of his supporters told pollsters they may change their vote.Gettty Images

A new poll by a partisan Democratic group shows that Republican outreach to Jewish voters may not produce the dramatic gains for President Bush predicted by some analysts, with John Kerry favored by 75-22 percent among American Jews.

One reason may be a surprising figure buried in an avalanche of statistics.

Despite the preoccupation of major Jewish groups with the ongoing Middle East crisis, Jews in the sample rated Israel as a relatively low priority in making their presidential choice.

When asked “which two of the following issue areas would be MOST important to you in deciding how to vote for a candidate for President?” Israel was mentioned by 15 percent of the respondents — far behind “terrorism and national security” and “the economy and jobs” at 42 percent, “affordable health care” and “the situation in Iraq” at 24 percent, and “Social Security and Medicare” at 19.

The survey of 817 likely voters was conducted July 26-28 by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research for the National Jewish Democratic Council.

Jonathan Sarna, a Brandeis historian, said the Israel number has huge political implications.

“What it points to is that the Jewish community is bifurcating around the issue,” he said. “It’s increasingly split between those for whom Israel will be the decisive factor in their voting and those for whom it isn’t.”

While the poll suggested there is little hope of a GOP tidal wave among Jewish voters, it did confirm a core GOP strategy, Sarna said: focusing on Israel among the relatively small segment of Jewish voters whose vote is shaped almost exclusively by that issue.

The GOP hopes to win modest gains in a handful of swing states, such as Florida, where even minor shifts in Jewish voting could make a big difference.

“It’s a smart strategy,” Sarna said. “It could be a successful one for the Republicans.”

Sarna said the relatively low priority placed on Israel is the result of a number of factors, including “the growing emotional detachment of younger Jews from Israel” and the increasing discomfort many liberal Jews feel with Israel in the era of Michael Moore.

He said the gap also could reflect a growing gap between religiously active Jews, who tend to place a higher priority on Israel in their decision-making, and more secular Jews who rate it lower than other issues.

In the NJDC poll, 73 percent of the respondents said they attend synagogue “several times a year” or “hardly ever,” and 60 percent reported belonging to no Jewish organizations.

Jewish Democrats claimed the poll confirmed their argument that Republican Jewish outreach is not working.

“For all their efforts, the Republicans have gained almost nothing with American Jewish voters,” said NJDC director Ira Forman.

In the most striking finding, Kerry enjoys a 75-22 percent lead over Bush among Jewish voters. In 2000, Bush received about 19 percent of the vote; many observers have predicted his strong support for the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon could boost that total to 30 percent or more in 2004.

Independent candidate Ralph Nader, whose comments about Israel have incensed Jewish leaders in recent weeks, was supported by about 3 percent of the Jewish respondents.

Only 20 percent of the Jews polled rated Bush favorably. Kerry received a 59 percent positive rating.

Anna Greenberg, the principal pollster, said Jewish voters give Bush “about the lowest job approval performance ratings I’ve seen outside of African-American voters.”

Vice President Dick Cheney, she said, “is even less popular than Bush” with a 79 percent unfavorable rating.

A little more encouraging for the Republicans: 18 percent of the Kerry supporters said there is at least some chance they might shift their vote to the president.

Eighty-five percent said Kerry would do a better job on abortion, and 78 percent preferred the Democrat on issues relating to “the role of religion in public life and politics.”

But Kerry’s numbers dropped to 66 percent on the issues of Israel and the war on terrorism. That suggests the Democrats are the most vulnerable on the question of Israel, especially among pro-Israel single-issue voters.

“The Republicans have defined the Achilles heel for the Democrats in the Jewish community, and they’re focusing on it,” said Kean University political scientist Gilbert Kahn.

Bush, he said, clearly has no chance to win over significant numbers of Jewish voters on a range of domestic issues. But there is a narrow window of opportunity to win over some single-issue pro-Israel voters, Kahn said.

Jewish Republicans blasted the poll as partisan in origin and biased because of its timing.

“I look at this as a poll taken by a partisan organization,” said Rep. Eric Cantor (R-Va.), the only Jewish Republican in the House of Representatives. “From my talks with people around the country, it’s clear there has never been a time when the pro-Israel community has been as comfortable with who’s in the White House.”

Matthew Brooks, executive director of the Republican Jewish Coalition, criticized the Democrats for conducting the poll during the Democratic National Convention, when national attention was riveted on their candidate — and during Tisha b’Av, which could have affected responses from GOP-leaning Orthodox Jews.

“The fact is, the NJDC deliberately picked the dates to go into the field to manipulate the data and produce the results they wanted,” he said.

But NJDC leaders said that because the poll was conducted on the Internet over three days, observant respondents had a chance to participate. They noted also that the Orthodox segment of the sample was 8 percent, within striking distance of the Orthodox proportion of the Jewish population.

The timing of the survey was a coincidence, according to the Democrats.

Greenberg said the figures are “in accord with most if not all of the recent studies and historical information we have about Jewish voters, including looking at the National Jewish Population Study, the recent Gallup studies, exit polls and the research I did a few years ago on Jewish voters. We feel extremely confident about these data.”

But Brooks countered that the poll “is wildly inaccurate.

“What will speak loudest,” he said, “is the data that will come out on Nov. 3, after the election.”


<American Jews are just getting fed up with Israel...>

[Emunah]

If I forget thee Oh Jerusalem....

I wonder how hysterical you guys might find it if I told you that from my vantage point, it sure does look like the world is getting together a planetwide lynch mob against the Jews...AGAIN!!!????

Please tell me it's just me?

[Mediocrates]

Oh wait, the friend of the enemy of my enemy is....no wait, the enemy of my friend is my...no that's not it..Oh screw it.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editorials.php#top

Friends And Future Promises
The relationship between Israel and the United States is subtle and ever changing, even if it is reduced to caricature in the Arab world and hyperbole in the Jewish one. It has become an article of faith among some that the choice for president can be reduced to the relationship between Israel and George W. Bush. Some say he is “the best friend Israel ever had,” a title so indiscriminate that it has been bestowed upon each of the 11 American presidents since Israel’s rebirth in 1948.

In a world where Israel has become the most unwelcome of wallflowers, perhaps we too easily confuse realpolitik for romance. Zionist lonely hearts can be forgiven for swooning for any man, particularly a president, who seems to like us — even if that man doesn’t want to be seen with us when he gets together with his friends in the coalition against Iraq.

In election years, when complexities are reduced to slogans, when pandering is high art, it is easy to flatter ourselves that the interests of the U.S. and Israel are one and the same, indivisible, good for the goose and gander alike. But this last week has illuminated a different reality — that no international friendship is as inviolate as we’d like to think.

Three news items on the front burner have underlined the fault lines in the American-Israeli relationship: First, the administration announced plans to sell missiles to Jordan, even as Israel’s Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz pleaded with the Pentagon not to do so. Second, the administration scolded Israel for construction in Maale Adumim, in America’s eyes a disputed and unfortunate settlement where Israel’s sovereignty doesn’t even extend to the right to add on a two-car garage, but a healthy and harmless suburb of Jerusalem in most Israeli eyes. And third, the administration continues to favor diplomacy as the way to defang Iran’s nuclear capability, even as an impatient Israel — Iran’s likely target — worries that Tehran will soon seek to make good on its threat to destroy the Jewish State. The world well remembers that when Iraq made similar threats and was nearing nuclear capability, Israel launched a surgical air strike that destroyed the nuclear factory with virtually no fatalities.

That 1981 strike, of course, is credited with saving untold Israeli lives when Iraqi missiles — without nuclear warheads — landed on Israel during the Gulf War. Nevertheless, Israel’s strike was strongly “punished” and condemned by the international community, including President Reagan (though he, too, was said to be “the best friend Israel ever had”).

This is not to criticize President Bush, or endorse either candidate. Nor is this to suggest that the sale of missiles, the differing views of Maale Adumim, or anyone’s Iranian option is anything but well intentioned. Good people agree and disagree on each of these points in both Israel and the United States. Instead, the sharply divergent approaches to three international options in one week are a cold reminder that as linked as our two countries are, friendships don’t guarantee fidelity.

Even among “best friends,” the next four years will be highly unpredictable. In the aftermath of Iraq, both candidates say they will try to win the hearts and minds of an Arab world that sees the Israeli-American relationship as poison. In Israel, the next four years are unimaginable, with no Israeli political party, nor the Palestinians, having any semblance of a stability that allows for prophecy.

“Best friends” are good to have, but in international politics, one can’t always count on them.

[MGB8]

Its not just you...

The world, led by Europe and the Arabs, has made it clear that hatred and racism against Jews is OK. And, as we can see in Paris, in Germany, in New Zealand, even the beginnings in the US, the message has been absorbed loud and clear.

When one group is treated differently, worse, than every other group, that is discrimination.

When Israel, the Jewish state, is the ONLY nation in the world that had demanded of it to (1) give all the land back it won in a defensive war, (2) endanger its national survival by doing so, (3) not attack the leaders of those who plan mass murders of its civilians, (4) not have those who do not recognize it, in violation of the UN charter, at minimum scolded if not condemed, (5) have a hugely dispraportional amount of UN hate motions against it for crimes minor compared to those on which the UN refuses to speak, (6) when other nations can openly call for the nations destruction and genocide, and the other nations of the world at best remain silent, if not join in....

Don't you think the masses get the message. After all, the greatest racists of the Third Reich were not "just" the Nazi leadership, but the masses of Germans and other Europeans.

Once again, the hatred of Jews, disguised as the hatred of Israel, is legitimized. But the people are smart enough to see what this really means, and they just follow along. Michael, Independent, Takeo, TDidier, Jorge....just examples of people who have internalized the WESTERN world's message..these are the biggest danger to Jews worldwide, the biggest instigators of another genocide. But they will wash their hands like Pilot did...."it wasn't me..."

That's why Israel should save a couple nukes for Paris and Brussells, among other places....

[TheMagus]

Whew, 'Rover' man......

You do seem to 'get off' on going overboard sometimes.....

Why pick on New Zealand? After all, wasn't it Mossad bungling and theft of NZ Passports that caused the friction there? Why blame them for an Israeli stupidity?

And since when have Israel's "wars" always been defensive? Didn't they launch a pre-emptive strike on Egyptian airfields in the 1970's? Oh, I see.... they attacked Egypt because they were "defending" themselves, that's right.....

By your logic, it must follow that by their 'agreement' and silence, the masses of Israel are just as responsible for Sabra and Shatila as Arik Sharon and the Falangist bandits (who were funded, armed and supported by Israel). Etc, etc and so forth.

And please, include me as a Jew who has also internalised the Western World's "message" that Israeli behaviour has gone beyond the bounds of human decency. I am not ashamed to be in that company.

And just as an 'aside', it is "Pilate", not "Pilot". Strange that you should choose him as a point of reference, bearing in mind that he apparently 'washed his hands' in disgust at the abominable behaviour and irrational hatred shown by the Sanhedrin as they tried to cause the murder of someone that he could find no fault with. Interesting......

But finally - you seem to suffer from the common Israeli illusion that Israel is able to "punch" far above its actual 'weight'. Bear in mind that France retains some 1,500 nuclear warheads, and Britain another 800-900. It makes Israel's puny 200 or so look very 'small' indeed. And just because Israel can (barely) contain the low-intensity "war" against a rag-tag band of Arab "irregulars" amongst the Palestinian population - doesn't mean that they would be able to do so against a modern well-trained European army. If it came to a scrap between Israel and, say, France - I'd have to bet on the French. Sorry.

[MGB8]

Well, progress Magus,

You admit that you are a self hating Jew (although I doubt that you are Jewish), and then have bought the idea that there was nothing cynical about Pilate (whoops, a spelling error on a message board, whoa is me!), who ordered Jesus' death, washing his hands. Instead you repeat the blood libel - that says quite a lot about you, also.

As for the airstrikes...I believe you were talking about the 6 day war, in 1967, which exposes your ignorance...so now we've shown you are an IGNORANT jew hating blowhard. Yay.

Sabra and Shatilla....Israel certainly "looked the other way" as Arab Christians "settled the score" with Arab Muslims...which, of course, is much less than what Europe did in Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sudan, the mid-east including Hama (Syria massacred 20,000), Jordan, Iraq, Iran, China, Pakistan, Turkey, Russia... sigh.

Oh...FINALLY, Israel would only use its nukes if it was about to be destroyed - that's why they call it THE SAMSON OPTION. Samson, about to die, pulling down the pillars...c'mon, you Jew boy knew about Pilate, why not Samson? If Israel is going to die, it will take a lot of folks with it. France, should Israel decide that Paris is heavily responsible for Israel's destruction and strike back with its dying breath...is free to retaliate - Israel would be dead either way.

[TheMagus]

Yo, Leyland Rover?

Not a "self-hating Jew". A Zionist-Terrorist/Settler -hating Jew. There is a very distinct difference.

[TheMagus]

But I don't really "hate" anybody, honest. As I said, the only thing I hate is deliberate and wilfull ignorance.

[Mediocrates]

you love to hear yourself talk

[TheMagus]

So sue me.

You just don't like competition to your own self-aggrandisement.

[MGB8]

Well well, you have flatly admitted to hating Zionists...akin to hating "Zionism", which means that you believe that the Jews have no right to a homeland, or self defense, unlike every other person and ethnic group in the world... and that makes you, for all practical purposes (drumroll please) a Jew hater!

It seems that you also hate yourself, not in terms of your supposed "Jewishness", but in your own willful ignorance. Heck, you referenced the 6 day war as in the 1970's!...yet you presume to have enough knowledge and wisdom to preach your ultimate solutions and infinate wisdom to us?

Pretention of the highest order.

First, Magus, go and read about this conflict - in particular I'd recommend Dennis Ross' book, which, while I disagree with many things he writes, particularly many of his conclusions, contains a very honest and accurate assessment of the recent history of the conflict. Then learn about the underlying forces and history of this conflict - from the conflict before the founding of Israel, to the wars of Israeli survival, to the current wars. Learn also about the greater Arab/Muslim perspectives - how they are shaped by Islamic themes such as the Jihads and Caliphates, and of the ultimate goal of a worldwide Muslim state; as well as the historical imporatance of the Crusades, the Ottomans, the Nazi's and the Russians. Read up on Arab language articles translated to English on MEMRI.org, as then you will learn that what is said in English is often contradicted in Arabic. Learn about the schoolbooks, about the Mosque Sermons....and then, when you actually have a grain of knowledge from which to base your opinions on, instead of the institutionalized Racism from the European media, who clearly and unmistakably discriminates against the Jewish state....then come back here, and maybe your posts won't be a lot of hot air.

[Gilgamesh]

By your logic, it must follow that by their 'agreement' and silence, the masses of Israel are just as responsible for Sabra and Shatila as Arik Sharon and the Falangist bandits (who were funded, armed and supported by Israel). Etc, etc and so forth.

And just as an 'aside', it is "Pilate", not "Pilot". Strange that you should choose him as a point of reference, bearing in mind that he apparently 'washed his hands' in disgust at the abominable behaviour and irrational hatred shown by the Sanhedrin as they tried to cause the murder of someone that he could find no fault with. Interesting......

Look guys!!! See what I've found!!! BANNING QUALITY matrial!!! Already repoted his post, best if you'll do the same to defend our turf and our distance from this human-shape walking filth.

Bay-bay, you Anti-Semetic-Catholic-fantatic-bigot-Mel-Gibsonian-limey-a-hole!!!

[Eugeenie]

I wonder how hysterical you guys might find it if I told you that from my vantage point, it sure does look like the world is getting together a planetwide lynch mob against the Jews...AGAIN!!!????

Please tell me it's just me?


Are you sure that will make you feel better?

Just watching the Jew haters salivating away like Pavlov's pooch at the Kerry forum, all identifying themselves through their speciousness and transparant protestations -- well, the uber left almost seems more insidious to me than the uber right. And this from a life long lefty. At least the Nazis come right out and vomit their hatred in straight forward fashion, whereas this uber left breed isn't even honest enough to do that. Instead, they simply attempt to eradicate the very meaning of antisemitism and work tirelessly through their mimicry of Jew hating Arab propaganda. Heck, when there are web sites giving them tactical argumentative instructions -- if somebody says this, you say this, if somebody says that you say that -- then they don't even need to think for themselves. It is this mindlessly doctrinaire aspect of their spiels that jumps off the page for me.


"Johnny, when somebody talks about terrorism, what do you do?"


"Ummmm -- scream about "state terrorism?"

"Very good, Johnny"


Now, Tiffany, when somebody offers a fact you don't like, what do you do?"

"Ummm -- evaluate the fact fairly and think about its implications?

"Tiffany!!!! -- young lady, you go sit in the corner for the rest of the day!! You in the back, Timmy?


"I know, I know, I know!! You info bomb them with cut and pastes from hate sites!!"

"*Very* good, Timmy"

[NewsGuy]

Look guys!!! See what I've found!!! BANNING QUALITY matrial!!! Already repoted his post, best if you'll do the same to defend our turf and our distance from this human-shape walking filth.

Bay-bay, you Anti-Semetic-Catholic-fantatic-bigot-Mel-Gibsonian-limey-a-hole!!!


Magus was already banned yesterday.

[Canajew]

Magus was already banned yesterday.
too bad. Wanted to get into a logic debate with him. Tose sorts of useful foils don't come along every day.

[Emunah]

Abu, Eugeenie was right there fighting that fight AGAINST antisemitism and lucky for us, he still is. I think he's a retired psycho-linguist:). I am probably wrong, but he is really great when it comes to language thematics. Thank you Abu, for posting this article. I can't believe the worm has turned so much, and if I told you what I found on the antisemitic "right" it would make your hair stand on end! I'll spare you their tirades:).

[Eugeenie]

I think he's a retired psycho .


Psssst -- Emunah -- nobody was supposed to know.
:D

[Semsem]

<<Not a "self-hating Jew". A Zionist-Terrorist/Settler -hating Jew. There is a very distinct difference.[/QUOTE]>>

First of all I am not sure whether Magus is really Jewish. We have to be very careful. Some of these British and French Jews have like some Jewish grandfather 2 generations ago and they are only Jewish when it's convenient for them to pretend they are Jews to intimidate the rest of us. This Magnus wants to be "loved" by his fellow British neighbours so he turns against his own people.

I have an aunt who lives in England and she says the atmosphere for Jews is unpleasant with so much Jew Israel bashing by the British politicians and the British press.

If he is Jewish, then yes he's a self hating Jew. I lived in England for 10 years and I would say that about 10% of British Jewry are self hating Jews who want to be more British than the Queen. In France it's about 25% as we already witness with Takeo. However the "majority" of British Jews are Zionists and strong supporters of Israel. My experience living in England is that they are just as antisemitic as the rest of the Europeans.

Magnus is a total and utter ignoramus. He had the chutzpah to call the Jews on this board gun totting rightists / settlers who support the evil Bush.

[Semsem]

<<You admit that you are a self hating Jew (although I doubt that you are Jewish), and then have bought the idea that there was nothing cynical about Pilate (whoops, a spelling error on a message board, whoa is me!), who ordered Jesus' death, washing his hands. Instead you repeat the blood libel - that says quite a lot about you, also.>>

I agree. This Magus or whatever his name is is not Jewish. First of all what Jew do you know of is going to talk about Jesus and Pontius Pilate? Give me a break! These antisemites just to irritate us like to throw at us they are Jewish.

[Semsem]

>>I'd like to know more about the "social justice" crusades the Jews typically champion - I've never heared that before.>>

Most Europeans have never met a Jew in their lives. Many times they would tell me I was the first one they had ever met personally.