Disagree with Christian

[poppy]

I would like to continue with some other opinions digested from Chinese website and clarify that:

1) those Chinese opinions as tranlated from internet are a very limited part;

2) those speakers I am referring to can only represent themselves instead of the whole Chinese, because:
--- compared with the 20 million online population in China, the amount of those speakers are of little representiative; and
--- even for these 20 million online population (estimated by the end of 2001), they are mainly aged from 14 - 35 and in capacity of students, thus can not represent the 1,300 million Chinese nor the mainstream of the Chinese.

Therefore, I am afraid that I can NOT fully reason Christian's opinion that "Chinese Support Israel". What do you think, Chrstian?

It is the third time I typed this post because my computer shut down suddently twice. I am really exhausted and without courage to retype the articles again. Hope this time the post can be sent out smoothly! Sorry for errors in my translation and your understanding would be highly appreciated.

Updates digested from www.sina.com.cn, the most popular Chinese website:

--- I have no interest in politics and I even can't tell you which side I would stand with, Israel or Palestine. However, I am really shocked by those Palestine girs, who shold have been enjoying their sunny life instead of being a bomb. Why, the answer is, as far I am concerned, they have no alternative to choose, nor force to rely on. Why they can not enjoy peaceful life, so did those victims? I really hope the bloody conflict stop right now and no tragedy would happen.

--- If the Palestine are called as Monster, then Israel's PM would be the Monster of Monsters.

--- If the Israel's PM were the Peace-maker, then G.W.Bush would be GOD.

--- Why the Palestine are called as "Terrorists"? For the reason that they killed unarmed civilians? If it is the reason, then the Ally would be called as Big Terrorists because they bombed the civilians in the big cities in Jap. and Germ. and even used atom bombs, even though we Chinese lost 20 million people in the War II. I have to say that I hate any war, stop it.


Finally as a conclusion, you may find that, even for Chinese, there are also disputes on the on-going conflict btw Israel and Palestine, therefore, it's really understandable that it is reasonable for these two nations, Israel and Palestine, with complicated relations and total different cultural and religous background, have different opinions. To solve it, weapon and violence are the fundemental solutions. Instead, a peaceful talk is always the way even it mighy take 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, so what? The life are the most treasured for all of us, especially for the bloody Israel and Palestine.

Thank you very much for your reading and your reply would be highly appreciated, even you disagree with me. Let's open fire on this visual life and cease fire in real world.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by poppy
Instead, a peaceful talk is always the way

Agree.

The life are the most treasured for all of us, especially for the bloody Israel

Agree.

and Palestine.

Disagree.

The Arabs are the ones who never kept their part of the Oslo accords, have continually promoted violence as a legitimate method to achieve goals and have nothing but praise for volunteer martyrs be they men women or children.

[cerulean]

Poppy, I very much appreciate your laborious translating efforts. You have done a very nice job with the translations. (I believe christian has done some translating as well - if so, also thank you.)

Are you in mainland China? I believe christian is in Hong Kong. If so, does this make a difference in the prevalent beliefs? In any event, I would presume that there is no way over one billion people are going to have similar opinions on this or any issue. Hong Kong is presumably more westernized than mainland China.

[poppy]

Reply to Oh Jerusalem:

Hi, very happy to read your reply. Anyway, it seems that our common agreements are more than the disagreement, right?

There is a Chinese saying that " The outisider may be clear about the reason the thing develops than the insider because the outsider's departure point is non-biased.

However, the world is so complicated. The initial purpose of my post was to provide our friends with opinions from some Chinese, who shall be in a non-biased position because the conflict is seemingly far away from their daily life. In fact, there are obviously three diffferent categories of opinions, supporting Israel or Palestine, or non-biased but wishing a sustainable peach. I guess the reason why "outsiders" Chinese generate these different opinions is that different educational background and livingn experience influence their individual judgement, inclusive of such a big population.

Anyway, I hope these opinions could, to some extent, help you get some ideas from different angles. There is never absolute right or wrong in the such kind of disputes.

Concluded with another Chinese saying: Peach and Harmony are the most fundmental we are searching throughout our lfe.

To my understanding, the harmony means concordance with the basics of humanity and nature. Hope to see that day coming.

[poppy]

Hi, Cerulean,

Your sight must be excellent. Yes, I am coming from mainland of China. Very happy to make so many friends here from Israel and Honkong.

Frankly speaking, in terms of opinions and ideas, there are some difference between Chinese in Mainland and Hong Kong, and you may also recognize that there are some common points. Anyway, mainland and Hongkong are experiencing total different development routes in the past 100 years. But, as Chinese, some basics of humanity are the same.

I have been to Hong Kong for 3 times and it is very westernized with chraracteristics of a modern city, dense population, laborious people, working tension and politic freedom.

I once had a chance to visit Israel several years ago, but unfortunately left it to my friend, who took a picture with Israel solider in west bank and show me so happily, I think it was about 7 years ago. Several years ago, my work China allowed me to contact with some Israel experts working in China. They are excellent and kind to advise their Chinese colleagues on the water-saving irrigation techniques which are now promoted in west acrid area of China. I would like to say that, for ordinary Chinese, Israel is a kind country and Jews is a great nation, there is no prejuice in China towards Jews as maybe in some other countries.

[takeo]

I have visited china in 1999, and altough indeed people don't feel any hate against israel or the jewish people, the chinese, who have themselves a (very well studied) history of being subject to colonisation by Western powers and Japan, tend to sympatise more with the palestinians, this is both the official viewpoint of the chinese state (which don't inhibit them from cooperating with Israel on some technical and economical matters) and the viewpoin of most Chinese i spoke, who seem to be surprisingly informed about what is happening in the world.

[christian]

Poppy,
I didn't translate anything. I just drag and paste your translation.

The xingjing separatist bomb the chinese in Beijing. What do you think? They have connection in Al-Quada.

There are chinese support the Israel invasion. There are chinese don't support it. It is written in your post.

I read the forum in Sohu.com. Some people say Israel is the Goalith. The Pal is the David.

Some people support the israel is this.
If you support the palestinian cause. This logic would mean that you support the Xingjing separaist. The Xingjing people can say you chinese occupy their lands. We want a Islamic state. We don't want a chinese communist government, taking our resources. We want our land back. We want to kick out chinese.

What do you think why Mr. president Jiang Zemin said the "American" has a double standard on "Terrorism"? Just a few days ago!

Mr. Jiang Zemin means

The America supports the Taliban, in return they(american) ask the Taliban to support the Xingjing Separatist. It is true. Some of the Al quada they are bombing. They are Xingjing.
Why should we(PRC) can't do this to Terrorist?
(This news is not in CNN, my American friends. It is facts too.)


What do you think Chinese government is friendly with Arabs? One of the reason is they want stablity in the northeastern region. In the long run, the Chinese government wants to revive a silk road kind of trade. Another reason is the oil. They (PRC) give the Arabs some weapons and logistics (fiber optics) , in return the Arabs lay their hands off the Xingjing. Moreover, the arabs have oil flowing into china. Due to China development at 7.5 GDP every consecutive year, they(PRC) make sure the supply mets demands.

The trouble is they can't be too close nor too far with the Arabs. If they are to close with the Arabs, the jews lobby in the US will stop china entering WTO and money. If they are too far, China will have no strategic allies in the world.

I can find you tons of information on this.

poppy,
See what I mean.

You don't understand. Unless, you are a middle western class chiinese. Unless, you have been in the west. You wouldn't understand the situation we are in.

If the Israelis loss. The Islam will gain confidence in their cost. The doctrine of Islam is simple. To dominate Islam every part of the world

Just look at what they do in AFGHASTAN. They kill any idol worshiper(buddhist).I am not talking non-sense here. Read the history of rising power of Islam. Everywhere they go. They torch the idols.

Poppy,
If you are buddhist, will you like your buddha statue be burned?
Will like your face cover with cloth?

For china, some chinese people view as land conflict. It is not. It is a religous conflict to muslim. It is viewed as rich and poor conflict in the western world.

There are three view on this current crisis.
View One.
Israel is bad boy. The american can't constrain him. The P is the good guy

View Two,
I am just a outsider. I am neutral.

View Three,
Look at what they do in Xingjing, The arabs ask us for Xingjing indepedance. Why do we be friends with Arabs? We should westernize our society. We should support Israel.

If you are modern western middle class. You will tend to be number three. Mind you, we take a lots of troubles in southeast asia from Islam.

[poppy]

Dear Friends, as I mentioned in my previous post, the Ambassador of Palestine in Beijing will be presented at the http://www.sohu.com on April, 17, 2002, 19:30 to 21:00 (GMT 8+) to talk with Chinese about the status of middle east and Palestine's policy on the conflicts. If you are intersted in it, you may leave you message in the mailbox: view@sohu-inc.com and these questions will be raised to the Ambassador for his online answer (if the questions can reach him by the SOHU company). Good-bye!

[christian]

--- If the Israel's PM were the Peace-maker, then G.W.Bush would be GOD.

Let's be fair guys, Israel's PM is a hawk. He is a military man. When military man mets his old fighting opponent. It is hard to resolve issues.

This is funny. G.W.Bush would be God.

Lets not remember mr. bush pursue unilaterlism. That means I don't give a damn about other country, except my interest.

[raven]

Christian: May I suggest a book for you to get from the Library or Purchace. It is " From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters. It can be purchased from Amazon.com or www.worldnetdaily.com. This book was written by a Pro Pal. supporter and is vital in the understanding of who is who in Israel and who is NOT who they say they are. Joan WAS a typical State Dept. Arabist and went to the area to prove that the Palistinians were the indiginous peoples of the area. She learned the TRUTH. They are NOT the origional peoples of Israel or any where else in the area. And she tells the story of how she learned the facts of the situation.

Poppy: I dont know your situation in China concerning the ability to access literature. If you can get a copy of this book it will give some important information you may wish to learn.

I cant see any two people that SHOULD be friends MORE than the peoples of China and the Jewish Community. So alike in that we are actual remaining peoples of ancient times. You Chinese 9 THOUSAND...(wow) years and going and WE, almost 6 THOUSAND years and TRYING AND FIGHTING to remain alive.

Want you, with all my heart, Poppy to be Free. To be free to chose what you read and hear and which religion you want and more.

Give truth a chance. Try to wade thru all the Politics and see for yourself who we are. We are STILL David. We are the real deal.

[L@mplighterM]

I hate to be the party pooper but if I understand you correctly and I believe that I do you make the following statement.

If the Palestine are called as Monster, then Israel's PM would be the Monster of Monsters.

In the beginning you profess to have neutrality by making the following statement.


--- I have no interest in politics and I even can't tell you which side I would stand with, Israel or Palestine.

Sorry as far as I?m concerned you have already shown bias and as far as I?m concerned that makes you more off a supporter of the Palestinians. You?re simply choosing between what you perceive to be the lesser of two evils.

[poppy]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I hate to be the party pooper but if I understand you correctly and I believe that I do you make the following statement.

If the Palestine are called as Monster, then Israel's PM would be the Monster of Monsters.

In the beginning you profess to have neutrality by making the following statement.


--- I have no interest in politics and I even can't tell you which side I would stand with, Israel or Palestine.

Sorry as far as I?m concerned you have already shown bias and as far as I?m concerned that makes you more off a supporter of the Palestinians. You?re simply choosing between what you perceive to be the lesser of two evils.

Hi, L@mplighterM,

Sorry for making you confused.

The above two statements you indicated in my previous post, actually are the opinions digested and translated from a forum of a Chinese website. They are the individual opinions of some Chinese friends. As I mentioned, I typed these details twice but all were lost due to unreasonable shut down of my computer, so at the third time, I was too exhausted to refer to their originals, authors, IP and time like I did to other opinions. Is it clear now?

These statements do not represent my opinion and I don't want to be misunderstood. Forgive my frankness, your words are somewhat sharp.

Anyway, your comments are appreciated towards all these statements, which may be positive or negative in your viewpoint.

Bye.

[poppy]

Originally posted by raven
Christian: May I suggest a book for you to get from the Library or Purchace. It is " From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters. .....

Poppy: I dont know your situation in China concerning the ability to access literature. If you can get a copy of this book it will give some important information you may wish to learn.

I cant see any two people that SHOULD be friends MORE than the peoples of China and the Jewish Community. So alike in that we are actual remaining peoples of ancient times. You Chinese 9 THOUSAND...(wow) years and going and WE, almost 6 THOUSAND years and TRYING AND FIGHTING to remain alive.

Want you, with all my heart, Poppy to be Free. To be free to chose what you read and hear and which religion you want and more.

Give truth a chance. Try to wade thru all the Politics and see for yourself who we are. We are STILL David. We are the real deal.

Hi, raven,

Thank you for your recommendation on the book and I am interested in reading it. Yes, it would be more helpful to have a fair view if we can learn information from various sources, even from "opposite party", thus your suggesions are really appreicated. I think maybe I can find the book in my university's library here in Canada.

As to information accessibility in China, I just searched on the web and found that there are about 45,000 pieces of informaiton concerning Israel, such as Jew's religous holidays, famous literatures, history, conflicts with Palestine, relationship with China, etc; meanwhile, there are also quite a lot of information about Palestine. Of course, these information are in Chinese and easily to access.

I also tried to access to China's biggest online library but failed to connect with its server; I will try to do later. In my impression, there were a limited amount of hard-copy publications concerning Israel and palestine several years ago. I am not sure whether there have been some changes recently.

It is really vital to get more understandings so as to ease and erase the contradicts to a extent as much as possible. It is definitely more positive.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by poppy


Hi, L@mplighterM,

Sorry for making you confused.

The above two statements you indicated in my previous post, actually are the opinions digested and translated from a forum of a Chinese website. They are the individual opinions of some Chinese friends. As I mentioned, I typed these details twice but all were lost due to unreasonable shut down of my computer, so at the third time, I was too exhausted to refer to their originals, authors, IP and time like I did to other opinions. Is it clear now?

These statements do not represent my opinion and I don't want to be misunderstood. Forgive my frankness, your words are somewhat sharp.

Anyway, your comments are appreciated towards all these statements, which may be positive or negative in your viewpoint.

Bye.

I agree that my post was blunt/sharp and that I misunderstood your post.
Are you going to start a “what I don’t like about Lamplighter” post now?

My tolerance level towards Islamic Fundamentalism and those that support it the slightest is ZERO.

In any dispute there’s going to be at least two sides and unfortunately innocent people sometimes get drawn into the conflict. That’s life like it or not. If In fact the quotes represent a cross sections of people’s opinions in Mainland China I know see it as a bigger threat to world security than before your post.

Why?

Because the individuals that made the posts clearly favor the Palestinians whose leader I clearly see as a supporter of Islamic Fundamentalism.. Whether they would support them financially or physically join the war I don’t know.

Perhaps their opinions come from little knowledge. That demonstrates that lack of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Of course when it comes to a conflict it’s sometimes advantageous for the leaders to keep their charges ignorant.

[raven]

Lamp: I want most desparatly to make friends but...I too am convinced that Islamic Fundamentalism of the kind we are seeing right now is a danger to the world. There are no two ways about it.

It is a danger to the US..it is a danger to Israel of cource. It stands in the way of Freedom and Liberty for all peoples.

We are Westerners and people of other places and cultures have no idea how vital these two concepts are to us and how invested we are in wanting all people of the World to have these basic human blessings.

They also dont know how blunt we tend to be.

So Im hoping that Poppy is reaching out and im hoping that he excuses our bluntness ( I can be the exact same as you...as you know).

Poppy...we want you to be able to use your good brain to learn some facts. IF you are a member of Islam, that is your right if you freely chose it or agree with it. We here are seeing FORCED indoctrination of Islam in many places. That is what alot of people are quite worried about.

The US, Canada, Israel and others stand for DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM. It is true that most of the Islamic World sees things so differently.

What you are engaged in right this minute with us...is FREEDOM.

[raven]

Poppy: Im confused. Are you in China now or actually in Canada in school? I thought you were writing from inside of China propper.

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by raven
[B]Christian: May I suggest a book for you to get from the Library or Purchace. It is " From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters. It can be purchased from Amazon.com or www.worldnetdaily.com. This book was written by a Pro Pal. supporter and is vital in the understanding of who is who in Israel and who is NOT who they say they are. Joan WAS a typical State Dept. Arabist and went to the area to prove that the Palistinians were the indiginous peoples of the area. She learned the TRUTH. They are NOT the origional peoples of Israel or any where else in the area. And she tells the story of how she learned the facts of the situation.


Thank you for your recommendation.
.

The trouble in the world is islamic fundamentalist. The moderate muslim is powerless to do anything.

[L@mplighterM]

Lamp: I want most desparatly to make friends but...I too am convinced that Islamic Fundamentalism of the kind we are seeing right now is a danger to the world. There are no two ways about it.

I hope with all my heart that all the innocent victims in Israel, 9/11 and all the others that lost their lives will not have been in vain. Any Muslims that I have talked to in the past that have indicated even the slightest criticism of the US and the west are my sworn enemies for life.

My children are presented the FACTS about Islam and its Fundamentalism they can make up their own minds.

The last straw broke the camels back a long time ago as far as I?m concerned and I will never speak too or have business dealings with anyone that embraces Islam and its Fundamentalism. I know full well that every Muslim isn?t evil or hell bent on world conquest but I?m not a mind reader and all I know for sure is that the majority seems to support Islamic Fundamentalism.

My attitude has hardened against these people and I haven?t heard or seen any significant condemnation coming from Islam.

Regardless of any outstanding land claim against Israel there?s absolutely no excuse for killing innocent civilians. NONE!!!!

Is there any Jew or Gentile in this forum that?s going to deny that the majority of Islamic States have been making nothing but excuses to justify terrorist actions????

These are times when one has to be harsh or sharp and question everything. If Chamberlain had done that before Hitler had gained strength 6,000,000 Jews and an equal number of what was deemed undesirable humans would not have died in the hands of a monster.

To save the world from religious madness action should have been taken by the world to eliminate Islamic Fundamentalism a long time ago. A good place too have started would have been in the Middle East and every democratically elected country should have taken the position that if one is injured we are all injured.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by raven
Poppy: Im confused. Are you in China now or actually in Canada in school? I thought you were writing from inside of China propper.

So did I at first Raven but he/she is attending school in Canada. Therefore my response was somewhat different.

[christian]

To save the world from religious madness action should have been taken by the world to eliminate Islamic Fundamentalism a long time ago. A good place too have started would have been in the Middle East and every democratically elected country should have taken the position that if one is injured we are all injured. [/B][/QUOTE]

Look like we will have a long cold war for more than hundred years. :(

It is harder to fight. It is not only about religion. It is about education. It is about Renaissance. It is about breaking up the old islamic belief. It is about science. It is about the fabric of social structure.

It is much more dangerous than the communist vs capitalist. The soviets are very cold and calculated. The extremist is not. They want to die with another 1 billion people, by using their nuclear capability.

Look at the world today, the EU don't see it as a religious cold war. The west is not alarmed.

If Israel lose the war with Pal's. May as well, kiss the world good bye.

The Islam fundamentalist will gain confidence. They will start their little plan on conquest. The moderate Islamic is powerless. The moderate just tag along.

"To dominate every corner in the world" written in Koran

This is scary.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by christian
To save the world from religious madness action should have been taken by the world to eliminate Islamic Fundamentalism a long time ago. A good place too have started would have been in the Middle East and every democratically elected country should have taken the position that if one is injured we are all injured.


The first steps have been taken and even if it takes 200 years it must be elliminated.Bush seems to have lost his stomach for it and today he's going to become the big explainer.

[raven]

Lamp: YOu know I couldnt agree with you more. THE END for me is when the Pals. took a man in a wheelchair...and laughing all the way, hurled this sick, crippled, old man off the side of a Ship. THAT..was the very end for me. AND..my country didnt use this as a springboard for ending relations with these ...people......AND.....NOT A PEEP out of almost any member of Islam against barbarism toward ANY country or ANY group. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE???????

I couldnt agree with you and Christian more. This type of Fundamentalist Islam, unfortunatly VERY PREVELANT...not just minority(I remind everyone that even a minority of a Billion people is ALOT OF PEOPLE) ...needs to be squashed and this WILL BE THE NEW Warm WAR. OR...WW3...OR, the NEW CRUSADES...

Poppy: go get that book then...read it and Ill tell you about some others. Also go to Joseph Farah at www.worldnetdaily.com...Or go to DrudgeReport 2002 and click on Joseph Farah. This is an Arab American and he will tell you that the information in "From Time Immemorial" is correct. One of his columns, archived, Oct. 2000 is on this subject. Go back in his archives and you will find it. This is NOT NEW..information.