Nearly 360 attacks against Jews in France

[L@mplighterM]

There's been nearly 360 attacks against Jews in France this April.

This works out to about 7,700 if it continues for a year. As I recall there is someone on this board that has an answer to all of this. Tell the Muslims that you support their cause and they?ll leave you alone and you can live peacefully.

Of course the leadership of France doesn?t see this as a problem. France has a population of about 60,000,000 if this type of antisocial behavior existed worldwide there would be 770,000 incidents of anti Semitic behavior yearly based on a population of 6 billion.

I?m I missing something? Seems to me that this is a major problem in the making.
link to story at JPost:

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/17/LatestNews/LatestNews.47146.html

[cerulean]

I got this from an email list.

================
HAVEN'T' WE LEARNED ANYTHING FROM THE HOLOCAUST?

FRANCE, 1942
• Synagogues and Schools Fire-Bombed
• Jews attacked on the streets
• Torah scrolls desecrated
• Jews face discrimination
• Chants of "Heil Hitler" and "Death to Jews" heard on the streets
• Government Officials express Anti-Semitism
• French Government is puppet of Nazi Regime

FRANCE, 2002
• Synagogues and Schools Fire-Bombed
• Jews attacked on the streets
• Torah scrolls desecrated
• Mme Cecile Muselet, owner of the French hotel "Le Bastide de la Pave" in Provence refuses to allow Israeli couple to stay at the hotel because of their ethnic origin
• Chants of "Vive Bin Laden" and "Death to Jews" heard on the streets
• French Ambassador Daniel Bernard and close confidant of President Chiraq curses Jews
• French Government is a puppet of Arab leaders

[takeo]

Well, the Jerusalem Post, always a reliable and neutral source of information, seems to be better informed than a Jew living in France...(by the way in an Arab neighbourhood)

have we learned anything from WWII?

yes: Jews in france have special laws to protect them and even the slightest form of anti-semitism will get you in the court-room. (the same for racist remarks or deeds against Arabs, this however is only in France, not in Israel) , Jews are very well integrated in the French society and discrimination against Jews is almost non-existant, unfortunately some frustrated arabs have attacked jewish communities but the response of the police was always quick and untill now nobody has been hurt and most of the yellers and vandals have to stand in court. Jewish institutions do have police-protection as in england as well.

no: here on this board we can learn daily that one people has more rights than another people, and that the freedom and right of an own state of one people can happen by oppressing another people.
Also some states still think they have the right to ignore international laws and extend their territory with parts of other countries if they thinks its necessary.
civilian people still gets intentionally targetted, by both sides, as in WWII.
People are still discriminated and can't return to their homes because they belong to the "wrong" race.

Should i go on or is it too depressing?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
Well, the Jerusalem Post, always a reliable and neutral source of information, seems to be better informed than a Jew living in France...(by the way in an Arab neighbourhood)

Well, well, well, you don't tell us anything to the contrary, do you? BTW, had you even bothered looking, you would see that the JP is simply conveying an Associated Press news item.

Now what, wise guy?

have we learned anything from WWII?

(the same for racist remarks or deeds against Arabs, this however is only in France, not in Israel)

Not true. Applies equally in Israel, irregardless of race, creed or color. The most classic case was the outlawing of Meir Kahane's Kach party from the Knesset years ago and the categorization of the party as illegal jsut for those reasons.

Jews are very well integrated in the French society and discrimination against Jews is almost non-existant, unfortunately some frustrated arabs have attacked jewish communities but the response of the police was always quick and untill now nobody has been hurt and most of the yellers and vandals have to stand in court. Jewish institutions do have police-protection as in england as well.

I'lllet the reader'sintelligence here decide how good or serious a job the French authorities are doing and how many perpetrators have "stood in court":

http://www.adl.org/international/lfe/lfe_01_2002.asp
http://www.adl.org/presrele/asint_13/4041_13.asp
http://www.adl.org/presrele/asint_13/4036_13.asp

Try impressing us with serious statistics from France, like how many anti-semtic attacks there have been over the last two years, how many assailants were brought to court, etc.

no: here on this board we can learn daily that one people has more rights than another people, and that the freedom and right of an own state of one people can happen by oppressing another people.

No, here on this board you can hear how one people, the Palestinians have blown every chance themselves to develop their own country, economy and success by cheering theie terrorist leaders as they broke every clause in mutual agreements since day one and have used terror as their negotiating tool.

[L@mplighterM]

As I told you before Mr.takeo if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it is in fact a duck. You can’t fool me sir.

Further you seem to justify these incidents by:

People are still discriminated and can't return to their homes because they belong to the "wrong" race.

I don’t really differentiate between you and the rest of the Arab world when it comes to excusing terrorism. To sum it up your argument and justification for terrorist acts all boils down to a land issues.

Perhaps you see yourself as a great commie at least you seem to be proud of that labeling. Did you know that commies are supposed to be Feminists? On the other thread you wrote the following.

Israel has to hire Russian prostitutes to attrackt some tourism at least, sad for a country that was once the number one in the Middle Eastern tourism-industry.

Here you refer to the Russian Beauty Contestants as prostitutes. That doesn’t sound like someone that’s a commie would post perhaps you have another reason to post something like this?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Well, the Jerusalem Post, always a reliable and neutral source of information, seems to be better informed than a Jew living in France...(by the way in an Arab neighbourhood)
So are you saying that all the Jews who are complaining of anti-Semitic attacks are lying? Every news organization in the world is lying about French anti-Semititsm? Were the synagogues not burnt down throughout France? Were the French police stationed outside the Jewish neighborhoods not attacked by Musilms? Were Jews not attacked in the street of France?

Even French president Abu Chirac had to make a fake little speech this week to try to excuse the ongoing events in the Arab colony of France, because he fears that soon enough, the Jews of the world, starting in the US, will begin to put economic sanctions on anti-Semitic France.

And, yes, I would take the word of the Jerusalem Post which interviews honest Jews in France over the propaganda of self-hating Jews in France who hope that if they support terrorism enough, then they will be somehow protected from French Arab violence aganst the Jewish community.

[takeo]

"Well, well, well, you don't tell us anything to the contrary, do you? BTW, had you even bothered looking, you would see that the JP is simply conveying an Associated Press news item. "

maybe so, but the fact remains that the JP is a newspaper that reflects the opinion of the most right-wing part of the israeli society and the zionist ideology. It has the same neutrality concerning reporting the middle-eastern conflict as the pravda during the cold war.

"And, yes, I would take the word of the Jerusalem Post which interviews honest Jews in France over the propaganda of self-hating Jews in France who hope that if they support terrorism enough, then they will be somehow protected from French Arab violence aganst the Jewish community. "

I know that you call all the peace-movement in Israel and all the left-wing and every Jew not 100% behind the oppression of the Palestinian people a "self-hating Jew" so I am honoured with this title.


"Not true. Applies equally in Israel, irregardless of race, creed or color. The most classic case was the outlawing of Meir Kahane's Kach party from the Knesset years ago and the categorization of the party as illegal jsut for those reasons. "

OK, I believe you, in theory this could be true, in theory, but I have seen in Israel daily discrimination and heard of violent mobbing, not only against palestinians from the occupied territories but as well against israeli citizens who are not jewish, unpunished...




"I'lllet the reader'sintelligence here decide how good or serious a job the French authorities are doing and how many perpetrators have "stood in court":
Try impressing us with serious statistics from France, like how many anti-semtic attacks there have been over the last two years, how many assailants were brought to court, etc. "

the links you presented didn't work.

"LE MONDE | 03.04.02 | 15h49
Un nouvel attentat a visé une synagogue à Marseille, sans faire de dégâts
Protestation commune des juifs et des musulmans.



voir séquence
Société





Marseille de notre correspondant régional
Un nouvel acte visant un lieu de culte juif a été commis à Marseille, dans la soirée de mardi 2 avril. Vers 21 h 20, deux individus ont lancé un cocktail Molotov en direction de deux policiers en faction devant une synagogue du quartier du Merlan (14e arrondissement), au nord de la ville. L'engin incendiaire, qui est tombé à quelques mètres des fonctionnaires, n'a pas fait de dégâts. Les deux agresseurs se sont enfuis en courant sans être rattrapés.

Parallèlement, l'enquête destinée à déterminer les causes de l'incendie de la synagogue Or Aviv, entièrement détruite par le feu dans la nuit du dimanche 31 mars, se poursuivait. Elle sera "compliquée", selon le procureur de Marseille, Jacques Baume, car le feu a tout emporté. Mardi, la police scientifique fouillait toujours les décombres du préfabriqué, avec l'aide des services techniques de la ville qu'a proposés le maire au procureur. Pour le moment, les moyens de la mise à feu restent inconnus des enquêteurs du SRPJ.

AMITIÉ JUDÉO-ARABE

Au lendemain de l'incendie de la synagogue, les représentants de toutes les religions de la ville, juifs, musulmans, catholiques, protestants, orthodoxes et bouddhistes, regroupés dans l'association Marseille Espérance, ont publié une déclaration commune, comme à chaque fois qu'un vent d'intolérance souffle sur la cité (Le Monde du 25 décembre 2001). "Prendre prétexte du grave conflit qui oppose Israéliens et Palestiniens ne saurait justifier un geste qui touche au cœur notre cité marseillaise tout entière, sans discriminations", proclame ce texte, lu par le pasteur de Bourqueney à l'hôtel de ville, en présence du maire (DL), Jean-Claude Gaudin. Il poursuit en affirmant que "les criminels ont attaqué toute la République française (...) en stigmatisant l'une des communautés qui fait partie de la France". Appelant au sang-froid, il dit enfin "refuser que cet acte antisémite soit le début d'une série (...) tout autant que la communauté musulmane dans son ensemble soit désignée comme présumée coupable".

Quelques minutes plus tard, le chef du Consistoire israélite, Zvi Amar, et le mufti de Marseille, Sobeih Bencheikh, se donnaient une accolade dans la salle des délibérations. Bras dessus bras dessous, souriant aux photographes et cameramen, ils louaient l'amitié judéo-arabe et soutenaient que "la France n'est pas un pays antisémite".

D'autre part, les trois mineurs qui avaient été interpellés dimanche après-midi, après avoir brisé les vitres de la bibliothèque de leur collège André-Malraux, dans le 13e arrondissement, et écrit des graffitis antisémites, ont été déférés, mardi, par le parquet, devant le juge des mineurs, qui les a mis en examen et a demandé des mesures de réparation. Il semble que les trois garçons aient eu l'intention de mettre le feu à la bibliothèque avec du papier journal. Parmi la quinzaine d'inscriptions, souvent obscènes, qu'ils avaient tracées sur les murs, deux avaient un caractère antisémite. Le parquet a donc décidé, de manière symbolique, d'ajouter aux charges de "dégradations multiples de matériel public" celle de "provocation à la haine raciale par des inscriptions à caractère raciste".

Michel Samson


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Les parquets appelés à la "vigilance"


La ministre de la justice, Marylise Lebranchu, a envoyé, mardi 2 avril, une "dépêche" aux parquets généraux pour préciser les "réponses judiciaires qui seront apportées aux actes de violence" antisémites. Le courrier de la garde des sceaux demande aux procureurs d'être "particulièrement vigilants" sur ce dossier et de "l'en tenir strictement informée". Ils doivent "veiller à ce que les auteurs soient poursuivis aux moyens des procédures les plus rapides", assurer "une bonne information des victimes sur les suites judiciaires" et rencontrer "régulièrement les associations antiracistes ainsi que les mouvements et institutions juives représentatives".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jean-Pierre Chevènement, en déplacement à Strasbourg (Bas-Rhin), mardi 2 avril, a qualifié "le fond de l'air" de "raciste, ethniciste et communautariste". Le député de Belfort, qui tenait un meeting à Schiltigheim, dans la banlieue de Strasbourg, a modifié son programme pour rencontrer le président du Consistoire israélite de France, Jean Kahn, et assister à l'office à la grande synagogue. M. Chevènement a qualifié les actes antisémites récents de " hautement condamnables". Il a estimé que "c'est un mauvais service rendu à la cause palestinienne que d'incendier les synagogues sur le territoire national".

• ARTICLE PARU DANS L'EDITION DU 04.04.02

I couldn't find links in english so here a french article in Le Monde, where is stated that, only in the city of marseille, were most violence against Jewish institutions happened and 80% of the perpetraters (all of them young Arabs, the suburbs of Marseille are heavily populated by young, jobless Algerians) have been caught and will be brought for the judge .
it is stated that the whole city of Marseille, including the mayor and the islamic and jewish representative bodies have combined an action to prevend such crimes in the future.
I didn't find it on the net but i know in Paris and Lyon, two other cities where anti-semitic acts happened, similar actions have been organised.
it also says that the minister of justice has send a letter to all the courts to ask them to inform the victims of anti-semitic acts over the follow-up of the perpetraters and to give priority to this crimes. (mostly vandalism of Jewish buildings, in some very rare cases stones has been trown at orthodox Jewish people, without consequences luckily)
Another very left-wing minister has met with the representative of the frensh jewish community to discuss how such actions could be best prevented in the future.
He also said that the people doing such acts are not supporting the palestinian cause but harming it by their criminal and irresponsible acts to harm innocent people.

[L@mplighterM]

He also said that the people doing such acts are not supporting the palestinian cause but harming it by their criminal and irresponsible acts to harm innocent people.

Talk is cheap and not only that the attacks are on the increase throughout EU. So let me ask if someone tells you that incidents of this nature are not helping the Palestinian cause whose cause is it helping? The mere fact that attacks like that does occur indicates that Arabs are engaging in anti social behavior.

These incidents are occurring in a state where fine and punishments seemingly have no deterrence. It’s not difficult to imagine that attacks of this nature would be more severe and frequent in a setting where the perpetrators are rewarded.

[takeo]

"No, here on this board you can hear how one people, the Palestinians have blown every chance themselves to develop their own country, economy and success by cheering theie terrorist leaders as they broke every clause in mutual agreements since day one and have used terror as their negotiating tool."

No, even before the intifadah israel was not prepared to give to the palestinians what the Jewish people already has, an own state. And before the first intifada israel wasn't even prepared to give them autonomy. It even didn't recognise the existance of the palestinian people! It was a deliberate choice of Israel not to allow palestinian refugees to return to their houses because they were not Jewish, it was a deliberate choice to build colonies on the land that belonged to the Palestinians and destroy palestinian villages and houses to build jewish colonies, even before any violence erupted.




"I don’t really differentiate between you and the rest of the Arab world when it comes to excusing terrorism. To sum it up your argument and justification for terrorist acts all boils down to a land issues. "

Land issues? The occupation of the westbank and gaza is an act of war and violence, as well as etnic cleansing, not only in the middle east but in the whole world.




"Here you refer to the Russian Beauty Contestants as prostitutes. That doesn’t sound like someone that’s a commie would post perhaps you have another reason to post something like this?"

Because I know that most Russian ladies in Israel (not the ones citizens of Israel but the "tourists"...) are very busy...








"So are you saying that all the Jews who are complaining of anti-Semitic attacks are lying? Every news organization in the world is lying about French anti-Semititsm? Were the synagogues not burnt down throughout France? Were the French police stationed outside the Jewish neighborhoods not attacked by Musilms? Were Jews not attacked in the street of France? "

yes, such incidents happened, and more maybe than in the States (because we have a bigger Arab population, and sometimes frustrated arabs want to expose their anger at the policy of israel by attacking Jewish people, this is of course no legitimation and has to be punished) But, in general, i can say that these remain isolated incidents, jews in France don't live in fear, nobody has been killed, most Synagogues have not been attacked or damaged, the police is doing everything it can to prevend further such incidents and all French people, even almost all french Arabs i know, have strongly condamned this. It is the work of a small but violent minority as it exists in other countries as well (for example England, Germany, Italy, but as the US)
Jews in France have in general higher positions than in most other countries(except of course the US, canada or Israel), almost 25% of my professors were Jews, and are very well integrated in the French society, maybe more so than in the US.
In the whole of my life i have never experienced anti-semitism from French people. And many French Jews condamn the oppression of the palestinians by Israel, they don't feel any special conection to israel.



"Even French president Abu Chirac had to make a fake little speech this week to try to excuse the ongoing events in the Arab colony of France, because he fears that soon enough, the Jews of the world, starting in the US, will begin to put economic sanctions on anti-Semitic France. "

LOL

[takeo]

"Talk is cheap and not only that the attacks are on the increase throughout EU. So let me ask if someone tells you that incidents of this nature are not helping the Palestinian cause whose cause is it helping? The mere fact that attacks like that does occur indicates that Arabs are engaging in anti social behavior.

These incidents are occurring in a state where fine and punishments seemingly have no deterrence. It’s not difficult to imagine that attacks of this nature would be more severe and frequent in a setting where the perpetrators are rewarded."

This acts are very counterproductive for the palestinian cause and palestinian solidarity groups all over France. These acts proove the words of israeli right-wingers and sharon-supporters that all palestinians are anti-semitic terrorists and that that is the reason why they deserve to be oppressed and occupied. They serve the cause of the israeli fascism and are hated troughout France, as well by most Arabs living here, and there is certainly no impunity or reward for this people, condamned by the whole society, if caught they will get harsh punishment, maybe even harder than people doing comparable things to Arabs (in france there is much more racism against Arabs than against Jews).
This actions however are only conducted by a small minority of ideed anti-social Arabs, mostly belonging to a minority of Algerians who live in bad economic conditions, comparable to the negro's in some quarters of New York and other big cities, who are also more violent and anti-social because of their economic conditions (however nowhere in france people are as poor and desperate and it's as dangerous as in the Bronx or in many quarters of Washington, Chicago, Detroit, etc.)

[L@mplighterM]

(in france there is much more racism against Arabs than against Jews).

How much have you experienced?



No, even before the intifadah israel was not prepared to give to the palestinians what the Jewish people already has, an own state. And before the first intifada israel wasn't even prepared to give them autonomy. It even didn't recognise the existance of the palestinian people!

You are aware that Jordan asked Israel for help to deal with the Palestinian problem back in the 1970's. Paper's were released about two weeks ago.

You are aware that the Palestinians are guaranteed
Jordanian citizenship.

They have a nice home waiting for them why don't you talk them and get them to return?














j

[Mediocrates]

It is a bigger deal to be excluded from being considered French than it is to be ostracised because you are something else. This is a very big deal to the French Jews.

[takeo]

I don't know what you are talking about?

yes I daily experience discrimination against Arabs. when i'm with Arab friends i'm the one allowed into the disco's, they are not.
Yes lomplighter, i know you favor total etnic cleansing of all Palestinians, it is because of guys like you in power in Israel (not so extreme, but close enough) that the Palestinians began their armed struggle. They had no choice: fight or disappear.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
I don't know what you are talking about?

yes I daily experience discrimination against Arabs. when i'm with Arab friends i'm the one allowed into the disco's, they are not.
Yes lomplighter, i know you favor total etnic cleansing of all Palestinians, it is because of guys like you in power in Israel (not so extreme, but close enough) that the Palestinians began their armed struggle. They had no choice: fight or disappear.

*LoooooooooooooooooooooooL*


What utter nonsense takeo really do you believe that?

And I’ll tell you that Jews had a lot of German friends in the pre war years trouble is when it came down to the wire their friends disappeared. As a matter of fact I’m certain that the ones that opened the gas valves in the concentration camps did at one time associated with Jews.

Father I don’t think you know what ethnic cleansing means.

[takeo]

I'm quite sure the people voting for Hitler didn't have any Jewish friend...

yes i believe that, they had the choice between sitting in their territories constantly oppressed by israeli military quietly being choked by more and more colonies taking their lands, and without any future, or revolting against their oppressors...

[takeo]

let me use a word very common to you: self-defense, time to fight back!!!

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
I'm quite sure the people voting for Hitler didn't have any Jewish friend...

yes i believe that, they had the choice between sitting in their territories constantly oppressed by israeli military quietly being choked by more and more colonies taking their lands, and without any future, or revolting against their oppressors...


Quite sure is not the same as being certain is it?

I’ve seen people being interviewed after the war and there wasn't one person that badmouthed a Jew. Everyone said the Jews were fine neighbors, friendly people and I always wondered what happed to them. Do you for one second believe that I believed that?

That story can be told 1000’s of times across Europe. Frightened little rabbits following the command of their evil leader Hitler happy that they weren’t the ones on the receiving end.

Go and visit the remnants of a society gone mad and while you’re there remember that it can and will happen again if Islamic Fundamentalism is allowed to flourish. It will happen again if evil is allowed to grow and I’ll tell you this anyone that advocates the murder of children must be destroyed

At times you do a lot of talking but yet you say nothing.

[takeo]

Hitler wasn't an Islamic fundamentalist to my knowledge...

you are confusing between a big majority of palestinians with the only aim to get back their house and live in their own land, free of foreign occupation troops, legitimate goals, i think so, and indeed a small minority of extremists who want to kill all Jews.

Yes maybe many Europeans were frightened by Hitler and his repressive machinery, as well in France, but still many people resisted and risked their life to fight the system or safe Jews, really many people and of all kinds, peasants, nuns, factory workers, docters, communists, etc.
Also i know many stories of Jews saved of deportation by Arabs in Algeria during WWII.
less so in Germany of course, as the Germans really never resisted the regime, even if they couldn't possibly agree with everything going on, they were taken by the propaganda that "Jews are a danger for our land" and other nationalistic bullshit.


"anyone that advocates the murder of children must be destroyed "
right, and anyone advocating the destruction or etnic cleansing of a whole people as well.

[Mediocrates]

You know; pity ill befits terrorists.

[L@mplighterM]

Hitler wasn't an Islamic fundamentalist to my knowledge...


The similarities between Islamic Fundamentalism and Hitler’s Nazism equal pretty much the same as far as I’m concerned. His aim was world conquest and the elimination of undesirables. If the allies hadn’t stopped him where would he have stopped with his cleansing?

really many people and of all kinds, peasants, nuns, factory workers, docters, communists, etc.

When I referred to neighbors I meant it in a literal sense. There were Gentiles that saved Jews but they were far and few between. Perhaps your buddies will hide you in a burka just be careful when you bend down and pick up a bar of soap. One word of advice don’t chose our newest member Trojan who’s from Turkey because his favorite pastime is killing Jews.


right, and anyone advocating the destruction or etnic cleansing of a whole people as well.


I see that you have finally come to your senses and now realize that Muslims are doing just that.

[Gatorade]

EYES ABROAD: The return of Vichyism
By Bret Stephens

SOMETHING ELSE, then, is at work here. Call it the politics of capitulation, or the triumph of Vichyism.

For those who follow European politics closely, and especially its foreign policy, two things especially stand out: the loftiness of the rhetoric, and the timidity of the deed."The hour of Europe has come!" said LuxembourgÕs foreign minister Jacques Poos in 1991, following a diplomatic mission to keep Serbia and Croatia from going to war. The Balkan wars were supposed to provide the occasion for Europe to take the place of the Soviet Union as the second main pole of power in the world, maintaining order within its sphere of influence. Instead, the EU sloughed off responsibility, first to the feckless UN, then to the United States. The result was Srebenica, carried out with the docile compliance of Dutch UN peacekeepers.

Part of the reason why Europe so often fails to act is structural: European states speak collectively, but act independently. Yet the structure is not an accident; it reflects a mutual convenience. Europe wants to put forth a view but it does not want to incur the costs - political, financial but most of all moral - of imposing its will.

Take the vote earlier this month by the basically powerless European Parliament to sanction Israel - and the decision by the powerful European Council to do nothing of the sort. Given the near unanimous European hysteria over alleged IDF massacres of Palestinians, there was something almost craven about the Council's decision: Countries that commit the kind of deeds of which the Israelis are accused should be sanctioned. Yet for the EU, posturing was enough. It offered just the right combination of self-congratulation, "responsiveness" to the street protestors, and appeasement of the Arabs, both within Europe and without. At the same time, it required nothing concrete of the European member states. It was a costless capitulation.

Indeed, capitulation has long been the hallmark of European governance. If French, German and Italian unions routinely go on strike, it's because they have learned that the government will likely give in to their demands. Ditto for European farmers, who command nearly 50% of the EU's total operating budget because EU governments live in fear of rural unrest.

But this is as nothing next to Europe's capitulations to the Arab world over the past three decades. Beginning in September 1970, when Europe agreed to the release of Palestinian terrorists in exchange for the release of hijacked airline passengers, Europe has consistently pursued a policy of accommodation with terrorists, from the PLO to the PKK to the Tamil Tigers. In France, police routinely turn a blind eye to looting rampages in Arab neighborhoods. And cases of assault by Arabs against Jews were - until they became a political scandal this month - met with indifference by police authorities.

Given this, it's no surprise that Israel's policy of standing up to terrorism in the West Bank should elicit such hostility among EuropeÕs governing class, for it threatens to arouse their own Arab street in ways beyond their capacity to appease. But I think it goes deeper than this. In Europe, the habits of capitulation are not merely a cowardly reflex and a source of shame, but a philosophical conceit. Europe is proud of its powerlessness, and sees it as proof of superior virtue.

Partly, I think, this reflects a Christian inheritance, seen today in the pacifism of EuropeÕs Green parties. Partly, too, it is the product of EuropeÕs historical decline. A continent that for 400 years directed world events cannot accept accept its sudden political irrelevance save by treating the matter as an inevitability from which it has derived great wisdom. Thus, for example, the collapse of EuropeÕs empires was transformed into the positive good of "decolonization." (That decolonization hasn't exactly done good by, say, Algerians or Sierra Leoneans, doesn't trouble the European conscience. What matters is to hold to the belief that with the loss of power came a gain in virtue.)

More basic to this equation, however, is the memory of the Holocaust. Typically among Jews, the prevalence of anti-Zionism in Europe is ascribed to a latent anti-Semitism, not to mention a desire to overcome a guilty conscience by painting Israeli tactics as Nazi. This may be accurate in some instances, but I would argue that the opposite is generally closer to the truth. Hatred of Israel comes from too close an identification with the victims of the Holocaust, with too great a fetish for powerlessness. Because Israel stands for Jewish power, it was bound to lose favor to those who could present themselves as the new victims. And Palestinians have been very adept at this.

What Europe wants, then, is not to harm Jews. It wants to save them, and thereby avail itself of the only means of redeeming itself. But for that to happen, Israel must again become as weak and vulnerable as it was before 1967. Back then, recall, Israel was very popular among Europeans.

IT MAY SEEM strange that roughly the same people for whom consciousness of the Holocaust remains the great informing value would seek to castigate Israel at every turn and appease those who would destroy it. But this merely points out the incoherence of European policy, both toward Israel as well as the rest of the world. For the lesson that much of Europe - especially the European Left - has taken away from the Second World War is not that power must be exercised sensibly and morally, but that power must not really be exercised at all. Hence the politics of capitulation I described above.

Yet the essence of Vichy was not capitulation, even if capitulation is what led to Vichy's creation. The essence of Vichy was its complicity in evil. Vichy may have started out as a helpless regime that had no choice but to go along with Berlin's dictates. In fact, as we now know too well, Vichy soon became a willing partner in Nazi crimes.

Today, Europe follows the path of accommodation to terrorism, to the anti-Israel fashions of the Left, to the demands of its Arab street. It does so out of convenience and cowardice, but also because it believes that there is virtue in weakness and retreat. Yet a Europe that has voluntarily renounced the exercise of power and given in to the demands of its "street" is a complicitous Europe. This may be different from an anti-Semitic Europe, but it is no less disgraceful.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
you are confusing between a big majority of palestinians with the only aim to get back their house and live in their own land, free of foreign occupation troops, legitimate goals, i think so, and indeed a small minority of extremists who want to kill all Jews.
70% of Palestinians who support suicide bombings, i.e., the genocide of Jews, is not a small minority.

And let's also not foget the the Palestinians were already offered their own state, with no military occupation whatsoever. They rejected it, and chose to continue the genocide of the Jewish people instead.

And getting back to your claim that the French anti-Semititc violenc is isolated, that is of course false. 360 incidents in a few months is widespread, not isolated.

[L@mplighterM]

And getting back to your claim that the French anti-Semititc violenc is isolated, that is of course false. 360 incidents in a few months is widespread, not isolated.

Here's a segment from the article:


PARIS - Nearly 360 crimes against Jews and Jewish institutions in France have occurred this month, the Interior Ministry said Wednesday.


That was nearly 360 crimes against Jews in 17 days.

Addendum:

Jewish bookshop torches in Belgium.


http://msnbc.com/news/740575.asp?0bl=-0

[takeo]

let me first respond to the hatefull article published here.
It is claiming that Europe capitulate for the "evil" as it did in Vichy, because union strikes get more social benefits, Arabs in Europe are met with the same standards as Jews (of course completely unacceptable to zionists who consider Jews to have more rights than Arabs) and Europe tries to use diplomacy and economy instead of brute force as israel and the US.
Europe also has one standard, human rigths violations in Yougoslavia aren't any different from human rights violations in Palestine, and no country has the right to occupy other countries.
In the US and israel however the one with the biggest gun and the most cash will decide who is a war-criminal and who isn't, the press, dominated by politics and big money, will follow (well, some companies as CNN are considered not pro-israeli enough by the zionist lobby).
The result is that in the European union there is much less poverty than in the states, more equality, social programms, and all the money spend by the us and israel on military is in Europe invested in social programs to help the economy and the poor.
The US policy of devellopment aid is military, with as a result that the direct neighbours of the us are amongst the poorest in the world (Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, etc.)
Vichy was only a puppet-regime of the nazi's, and all the leaders of Vichy were hated by the French and convicted to life sentences after the war. More than 100000 french died in fighting the nazi's, that is more than americans died, and with greater destruction for the country. After the war Europe develloped a new ideology that was a reaction to nazism. Military and nationalistic thinking was considered evil, and Europe knew that violence and militarist thinking would accomplish more violence and poverty as in the past, and that all people need a chance to devellop themselves (or a second chance, as the Germans, who lost the war but recovered quickly without being punished as a people, the strategy israel favours. if Sharon would have defeated hitler i'm sure today we would have a new hitler, born out of the frustration of the german people, as in WWI). Also European prisons are much more human than US or Israeli prisons, with as a result that criminals in israel and the us get even more criminal in prison than before. Unfortunately the US and israel were stuck in military thinking, with as a result that these countries are much more violent than Europe, these countries are lacking any compassion or reconvertion for the "loosers", indeed you can say these countries lack the Christian value of "compassion" with the other, which is one of the good things about christiannity.
on this board you can see that people are only seeing the suffering of their own people, never the suffering of other people (much bigger) , in the end this will revenge itself, as we have seen on 11th september and as we are seeing daily in Israel.

[takeo]

"The similarities between Islamic Fundamentalism and Hitler’s Nazism equal pretty much the same as far as I’m concerned. His aim was world conquest and the elimination of undesirables. If the allies hadn’t stopped him where would he have stopped with his cleansing? "

I think that the similarities between zionism and nazism are more striking than similarities between fundamentalism and nazism. All 3 are totalitarian, sure, but fundamentalism doesn't value etnic origin or statehood but only religion(as the ultra-orthodoxes in israel who try to force their fundamentalism upon other people) , while zionism and nazism both consider your blood and ancestry the most important, and both consider it to be a deciding factor of how to treat people, people not belonging to the right origin, can be barred from their houses, or in German "Land, blut und Bodem". they also consider the right of the motherland to be more important than individual rights of people and rights of neighbouring countries.




"I see that you have finally come to your senses and now realize that Muslims are doing just that."

See how you use the word "Muslim", in the same way Hitler used the word "Jewish" as the representation of all evil.
Sure suicide killers who kill innocent people are bad people, as well people ordering the killing, occupation, destruction and humiliation of cities in the westbank and gaza.

[L@mplighterM]

Ouote from takeo:
let me first respond to the hatefull article published here.

Your Arab buddies are guilty of the growth of anti Semitism throughout Europe. France, Britain, Belgium, Denmark, Norway and so on…………………

Do you live on an Island with no contact with the outside world except a connection to Israel Forum?

I don’t make the damn news I’m just reporting what I read. Do you think newspapers throughout EU are owned by Jews and they just write propaganda in them to gain sympathy? I could give you at least 50 URL’s of papers that I scour weekly.
Go to moreover.com and do some reading before you post nonsense.

Let me get this straight. Anything that isn’t to takeo’s liking is hateful. You might think the world revolves or should revolve around you but I’m afraid that isn’t so.

The rest is just Mumbo Jumbo and fragmented nonsense that has nothing to do with this thread.

[takeo]

"70% of Palestinians who support suicide bombings, i.e., the genocide of Jews, is not a small minority. "

sure, but did you know that before sharon started his violence-campaign against the palestinian territories less than half supported suicide bombing...
Also did you know that more than 70% of the Israeli support the war-criminal Sharon?
"les extrèmes se touchent" we say in French, meaning the extremists on both sides help eachother and are similar.
There is also a difference between supporting suicide-bombing (by the way me too, for sure after the latest criminal acts in jenin and other parts, i can't condamn suicide-actions against the occupation force or politicians responsible for war-crimes, of course i strongly reject actions against civilians on markets, busses, which is slaughter of the worst kind) against criminals or occupationists or against civilians. I believe 100% of the palestinians support the armed struggle against the occupation power, that's their right and duty to do so.


"
"And let's also not foget the the Palestinians were already offered their own state, with no military occupation whatsoever. They rejected it, and chose to continue the genocide of the Jewish people instead. "

No, they were offered only parts of their occupied land, and no full souvereignity over borders and other matters. However they are prepared to discuss this further (as they did with barak in january 2001) , Sharon however is not prepared to stop the occupation completely, he said so during oslo, camp david, so please don't make me believe he is a man of peace.

"And getting back to your claim that the French anti-Semititc violenc is isolated, that is of course false. 360 incidents in a few months is widespread, not isolated."

First it is not French but Arab violence(for obvious reasons), and second there are quite a few incidents but none have really been life-treatening and have been met by staunch condamnation from all the french society and the police is doing what they can to find the perpetraters. So any comparisation to WWII or to the situation in the middle East is just bullshit.

[L@mplighterM]

See how you use the word "Muslim", in the same way Hitler used the word "Jewish" as the representation of all evil.
Sure suicide killers who kill innocent people are bad people, as well people ordering the killing, occupation, destruction and humiliation of cities in the westbank and gaza.

It isn’t my fault that Muslims grow up to be Islamic Fundamentalists or their supporters. I don’t make the statistics and I’m not saying that every good Muslim is a dead Muslim. I do however believe that it’s fair to generalize based on statistics.

I NEVER SAID EVERY MUSLIM IS A TERRORIST !!!!!!!

Can you read that?

[takeo]

And i can assure you that France is A LOT safer for Jews than Israel or even the US, where you can get killed if you take the wrong metro to the wrong neighbourhoords.

ps: i want to make myself clear to avoid any misinterpretations: 100% of palestinians support the armed struggle, but if you would ask what's the goal of this armed struggle, than 80% will respond (according to former polls in the occupied territories by gallup) it is the liberation of gaza, westbank and Eastern Jerusalem where they live. Only 15% thinks "all of the historical Palestine" should be liberated. 5% had no opinion

[takeo]

Well, i remember some months ago you said on this forum that all Muslims are like animals or something like that...
I remember prostesting against it to Newsguy...
thanks for the moderation, you've become (a little) more reasonable...

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
Well, i remember some months ago you said on this forum that all Muslims are like animals or something like that...
I remember prostesting against it to Newsguy...
thanks for the moderation, you've become (a little) more reasonable...

Your statistics are way off base can you post a link that shows those numbers. Never mind a link to some off the wall site.

Well you know when you get older you become wiser. I’ve learnt to moderate so I don’t get my posts censored.

[takeo]

"Do you live on an Island with no contact with the outside world except a connection to Israel Forum? "

actually i live in an Arab neighbourhood in Paris, considered one of the most dangerous places on earth according to the Israeli or pro-israeli press...
by the way i'm not the only Jew living here, it's still considered the Jewish quarter of Paris, altough more Arabs live here now.

"Let me get this straight. Anything that isn’t to takeo’s liking is hateful. You might think the world revolves or should revolve around you but I’m afraid that isn’t so.
"

Anything criticizing Sharon or the US-policy is considered hatefull by your guys too... actually this article was hatefull, not just criticizing Europe but really in an insulting and generalising way.
As if i would say "all Americans are madmen, the country is a piece of **** inhabited by crazy, racist, egoistic, loud and very stupid Homer Simpsons who never think further than the local mall and who think that buying a gun is the universal solution for all problems in the world, in that way they really deserve Bush junior" that would be a hatefull, generalizing way of criticizing the us.

[takeo]

i read those statistics in Le Monde Diplomatique somewhere in the last summer, you can find it i think at the website of Gallup, but unfortunately it's a pay-site...

[Mediocrates]

Marais? Do you speak Farsi too?

[christian]

Takeo,

As I far as I can rememberl. China never have any stormy relationship with France and German in this five years. Nor ,china has any great conflicts with the European.

It is funny how the American picture us as a evil threat to the western world.

[L@mplighterM]

It is funny how the American picture us as a evil threat to the western world.


What?s funny? Shouldn?t they?

Taiwanese live in constant fear from China.
We have all seen how they treat their citizens when they ask for a bit more.

[christian]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
It is funny how the American picture us as a evil threat to the western world.


What?s funny? Shouldn?t they?

Taiwanese live in constant fear from China.
We have all seen how they treat their citizens when they ask for a bit more.

Taiwan people is Chinese people. It is already an independant country with no recognizition.

May I ask how can a jew kill another jew in a massacre?
May I ask how can an american kill another american in a massive way?
May I ask how can an German kill another german?

Will you like to kill your fellow american?


Where is it recorded in the history books?
It only happens in the civil war .

Ok. Let's say I buy that theory of threat.
How can you persuade me we are theatening the western democrarcy?

Since, we build a great relationship with France and German,european.
We never have a beef with France. Unless, I have a alzhemeir disease.

[L@mplighterM]

Taiwan people is Chinese people. It is already an independant country with no recognizition.

May I ask how can a jew kill another jew in a massacre?
May I ask how can an american kill another american in a massive way?
May I ask how can an German kill another german?

Will you like to kill your fellow american?


I sincerely hope that there will never be a global conflict with China.

Nether the less it is prudent to be prepared. Quite frankly I've never viewed Mainland China as being overly friendly towards the US although I must say they have a cordial working relationship.

History doesn't stop at the time of this writing. Further I believe it would be a fatal mistake for China to invade Taiwan.

I have personally spoken to many Chinese from Taiwan (somewhere around 30) and each and every one has expressed fears of an impending invasion from China.

I'm not going to dwell into Chinas past because you should pretty well be aware of it. In any event you brought up the subject and I answered to the best of my ability.

In any event this is not a China discussion tread.

[christian]

I understand :)

However, I just want to describe you the relationship between Taiwan and China. I want to people to know the whole picture,especially the foreigner.

The relationship between china and taiwan is like father(china) and lost son(taiwan). The son has sent to the day care center,to the maternal father(America).

Maternal father likes his son very much. He raise him up. He feeds his ideas about democracy,etc.

The real father think about his son all the time. His son don't want to come back his real father. The maternal father gives the weapon to his son. This makes the real father mad. He wants his son back. Other uncles(singapore, southeast chinese) are also mad.

All the real father wants is the recognization, that I am your real father.

It is like love. When you love someone too much, you will hate .

That is all for the taiwan thread. :)

By the way, I am half taiwanese. I don't want chinese, killing chinese. This is the last thing I want to see.

[L@mplighterM]

The relationship between china and taiwan is like father(china) and lost son(taiwan). The son has sent to the day care center,to the maternal father(America).
The son dosn't want to be found.

[christian]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
The relationship between china and taiwan is like father(china) and lost son(taiwan). The son has sent to the day care center,to the maternal father(America).
The son dosn't want to be found.

I don't agree with you this statement in a way.
It is more complex than just invasion. It is a struggle between western secular class(taiwan) and developing class(china).

So, an outsider like you, would think like an invasion. For us, it is just damn civil war. Which we try to avoid. Unless, the son(taiwan) declares independance. :eek:

[L@mplighterM]

To sum it up son if (Taiwan) declares independence KILL HIM! But you don't understand why the US sees China as an EVIL THREAT to the west? Enlightening!

GET THIS STRAIGHT I?M JUST ECCOING WHAT TAIWANESE (30-50) HAVE TOLD ME.

[takeo]

Lomplighter i guess we should declare jiang Zemin a terrorist too and bulldozer mainland China... (just a little warning that the PRC will be tougher than the PA)
By the way, Jean-Marie Le Pen has won the presidential elections in France, this guy loves Sharon(well some of his friends have some difficulties loving Jews, even fascist Jews) and hates Arabs so this is good news for Israel. sharon, Bush, berlusconi and Le Pen, it seems extreme right-wing extremists will run the planet for some time.

[NewsGuy]

Other posts about France's Le Pen were split into a new thread here:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=550

[L@mplighterM]

I think that I proved my point.


CNN) -- The Chinese leadership has for the first time stated its opposition to the stationing of American troops in Central Asia.

President Jiang Zemin, on tour in Iran, told counterpart Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani that Beijing was opposed to American policies in Central Asia and the Middle East.

"Beijing's policy is against strategies of force and the U.S. military presence in Central Asia and the Middle East region," Iran state radio quoted Jiang as saying.

Jiang also reportedly said that Beijing would work together with developing nations to counter American "hegemonism."


http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/22/china.iran/index.html

[L@mplighterM]

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- An unidentified assailant hurled a stone through the window of a synagogue in southern Ukraine in the second such attack on a Ukrainian synagogue in a week, officials said Sunday.
http://www.nj.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0462_BC_Ukraine-SynagogueAtta&&news&newsflash-international

The Mykolaiv attack came just one week after dozens of youths attacked Kiev's central synagogue, beating three people with stones and breaking windows.
There have been other attacks.
Vadym Rabinovich, president of the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress, said that assailants broke all the windows of the Kiev synagogue and painted swastikas on the walls in an attack January 27. Two weeks ago, a man with a knife stabbed an elderly Jewish man in the face at a synagogue in Lutsk, 250 miles northwest of Kiev.
http://www.nj.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0462_BC_Ukraine-SynagogueAtta&&news&newsflash-international

Rise in Semitism and the Middle East Link:

http://www.hadassah.org/izaia/ziontext/semirise.html

[Mediocrates]

I tend to think the Palestinians-as-victims-of-racism is a card the left plays when it suits its purpose. One would think that were this a focal point of the left they would focus on the 12% of Israelis who are Arabs, seemingly oppressed as an underclass. At least in that situation one could take to the streets, effect public awareness, start a civil rights movement, try to get a democratic society to move its policies. But we don't hear about that. Of course now that Palestinians labor decreased from 200,000 people/day to about 40-50,000 people per day with the slack being made up by cheap Thai labor, one can only wait with baited breath the onslaught of complaints about the racist anti Thai zionist oppression.

[L@mplighterM]

(16:45) Vandals damage 135 tombstones at Jewish cemetery
By The Associated Press

BRATISLAVA, Slovakia - Vandals destroyed 135 tombstones at a Jewish cemetery in Slovakia's second-largest city over the weekend, a rabbi said Monday.

Rabbi Jossi Steiner said the desecrations were discovered Sunday by a visitor to the cemetery in Kosice in eastern Slovakia. Dozens of grave markers were torn down, and some were broken into several pieces, he said.

"Those mute stones couldn't cry out, so they knocked them down," an angry Steiner told The Associated Press by telephone from Kosice, 420 kilometers (260 miles) east of the capital, Bratislava, and home to the country's second-largest Jewish community.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/22/LatestNews/LatestNews.47478.html

[cerulean]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154995&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

The Berlin police has advised Jews in the city not to wear any garments that identify them as Jews for fear this may expose them to attacks by Arab youths, Army Radio reported Tuesday. Police specifically advised against the wearing of skullcaps and the Star of David.

...

[Mediocrates]

The purest form of hatred is hatred in the absence of a target. There are perhaps 45,000 Jews in all of Germany today, many of whom are Russian speaking. To say that there is anti Semitism in a country (or similarly, Poland with perhaps 30,000 Jews) effectively empty of Jews is a damning indictment on all of German culture and shows the false face of postwar Germany for the lie that it is. It shows that countries like Germany are permanently stained with hatred and they can never redeem themselves as a culture or a country to the Jews of the world.


And then we look at the Arab world and its apologists who say Jews and Arabs coexisted peacefully side by side for thousands of years. We examine this statement and realize today that across the Arab world there are fewer Jews there than in Poland or Germany where almost 100% of the Jewish population was brutally murdered.

That should give you some perspective of the degree of anti Semitism in Europe and in the Arab world.

You can never be radical enough, in the face of that.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154995&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

The Berlin police has advised Jews in the city not to wear any garments that identify them as Jews for fear this may expose them to attacks by Arab youths, Army Radio reported Tuesday. Police specifically advised against the wearing of skullcaps and the Star of David.

...


You can add the Norwegian police to the list.

[cerulean]

Update: Berlin police apologizes to Jewish community
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/23/LatestNews/LatestNews.47582.html

BERLIN - Police in Berlin apologized Tuesday for a police official's suggestion in an interview with Israel's Army Radio that Jews should stop wearing religious symbols in the German capital to avoid anti-Semitic attacks by Arabs.
...

[L@mplighterM]

An umbrella group of international Jewish organisations has demanded better protection from European authorities after a spate of anti-Semitic attacks.
Secretary general of the World Jewish Congress, Avi Beker, said there were 360 anti-Semitic incidents in France alone over the past two weeks, heralding worse to come for Jewish communities around Europe.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1946000/1946851.stm

[L@mplighterM]

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(22:30) Palestinians admit vandalizing Mt. of Olives cemetery



Media sources report that five Palestinian youths are in police custody tonight after admitting to vandalizing tombstones in Jerusalem’s Mount of Olives Cemetery.

The Palestinians, police said, are residents of east Jerusalem and are ages 14-16.

The teens threw rocks at cars approaching the cemetery and damaged several tombstones.



http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/23/LatestNews/LatestNews.47592.html

[takeo]

All this is very regrettable and is coducted by only a small group of radicals (in France Arabs, in Germany and Eastern Europe skinheads or neo-nazi's) and condamned by the big majority of the population.
this is not at all comparable however to the slaughter of 100's of people on the Westbank... approoved by a majority of israeli!

[Mediocrates]

What if the UN comes to the conclusion there was no massacre? Will you have to disavow yourself of them too? You seem committed to the belief that a massacre occured..

[Mediocrates]

One kind of murder is merely regrettable yet another kind is a war crime.

OK, just so we're on the same page...

[takeo]

well, i hope you see the difference between killing 100's of people and destroy whole cities and destroying a couple of graves or burning a Jewish bookstore (without casualties)
Both are very bad and despisable, but there is some gradation... NO???

i am convinced, yes, after all what i saw and heard from different, mostly neutral sources.
I think the un-commission, if ever allowed to enter (israel is refusing entry untill now) , and if not entirely choosen by israel(but i think the un would not agree with that) will come to this conclusion.

[L@mplighterM]

am convinced, yes, after all what i saw and heard from different, mostly neutral sources.

Who's your neutral source Arafat and his boys?

[Mediocrates]

http://historynewsnetwork.org/articles/article.html?id=684


Here are the first 3 paragraphs:

At the UN It’s Ok to Be Anti-Semitic
By Ruth Wisse
(Ruth R. Wisse is Peretz Professor of Yiddish Literature at Harvard University.)

Jeanne Kirkpatrick once remarked that while she was a professor of political science there were two mysteries she could not understand: how the Holocaust could have happened, and how the rest of the world could have let it happen. Things became clear once she took her post as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations in 1981. The anti-Semitism of many member nations, and the reluctance of others to compromise their "neutrality" while pursuing their own political ends, were almost as much on view during her tenure at the United Nations as they had been in Europe four decades earlier.

On March 18, U.N. secretary general Kofi Annan released a letter to the media telling Prime Minister Ariel Sharon that Israel must end what he called the "illegal occupation" of Palestinian lands. This statement was false. As George P. Fletcher noted in the New York Times, and other legal experts have long affirmed, "it is not illegal for victorious powers to occupy hostile territory seized in the course of war until they are able to negotiate a successful peace treaty with their former enemies." In recognition of this precept, following the war of June 1967 the Security Council passed Resolution 242 calling for Israeli withdrawal from "territories" rather than from "the territories," precisely avoiding the implication that the occupation itself was illegal. Annan not only obscured this crucial distinction, but then downplayed the significance of his terminology--on the perverse grounds that such incrimination of Israel had subsequently become common coin within his organization.

What Annan should have been seeking to end is the pernicious role of the U.N. as instigator and abettor of a possible international conflagration. The U.N.'s assault on Israel, in direct violation of its Charter, now rivals even the Jew-hating indoctrination that preceded World War II. The very organization that is charged with ensuring the equal protection of all nations, large and small, has become the spearhead of attempts to destroy one of its most vulnerable members.

[L@mplighterM]

well, i hope you see the difference between killing 100's of people and destroy whole cities and destroying a couple of graves or burning a Jewish bookstore (without casualties)
Both are very bad and despisable, but there is some gradation... NO???

Now that really depends on the people doesn?t it? If you mean to imply that Israel targets innocent civilians you?re dead wrong. As a matter of fact the Arab press has already admitted that there wasn?t a massacre in Jenin.

Mr. Terrorist advocate the Palestinians blew up their own houses and destroyed their own property to gain sympathy for their cause. Initially that may work but the trouble with telling lies is that you get caught. Mr.Anan will not get his way because nations are going to insist that unbiased military experts will accompany the team. To bad for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[takeo]

"it is not illegal for victorious powers to occupy hostile territory seized in the course of war until they are able to negotiate a successful peace treaty with their former enemies."

could you please indicate me where exactly, in which resolution , Geneva-convention or other international law this is written?
"the terroitories" or "territories" are you really going to play that childish game again... how far people can go to deny the undeniable...
it said "territories occupied in the latest conflict"... what territories were gained in 1967... BINGO!
I consider un-observers to be neutral, yes! as well as Amnesty international and Human rights watch...(for your information: these organisations criticise Cuba, Iraq and even Arafat too...)

[takeo]

"nations?"
You mean the US and Israel...
of course we can also turn this commission into a kind of unscom, full of CIA and Mossad members... (well if you call this unbiased, that's your interpretation...)
Anyway the serbs didn't had that privilege to appoint their own judges...

[L@mplighterM]

I consider un-observers to be neutral, yes! as well as Amnesty international and Human rights watch...(for your information: these organisations criticise Cuba, Iraq and even Arafat too...)


I sure the hell wouldn't let anyone like you drive my cars you'd be going uphill 120 MPH in neutral.

[takeo]

:rolleyes:

[L@mplighterM]

(13:40) Security increased around Brussels synagogue
By The Associated Press

BRUSSELS - Police increased security around a synagogue in southern Charleroi last week after the building was hit by 18 bullets over the weekend, the fourth anti-Jewish attack in a month.

Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt has already promised he would beef up security around potential targets and warned attackers not to export the violence from the Middle East to Belgium.

Unknown assailants started shooting at the Charleroi synagogue on April 20 when the building was deserted. No one was injured, and police are still looking for clues who was behind the attack, said a police official, who asked not to be identified.


http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/28/LatestNews/LatestNews.47886.html

[L@mplighterM]

Apr. 28, 2002
Arson cited in Fla. synagogue fire
By The Associated Press


KEY WEST - Arson caused an early morning fire at a synagogue that damaged the building and the congregation's Torah, fire officials said.
There was no evidence that the blaze at B'Nai Zion Synagogue earlier this month was a hate crime or an act of terrorism, the Key West Fire Marshal's Office said in a statement.


http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1019987713303

[takeo]

OK, so that means Florida is now an anti-semitic state?
According to your standards, yes. (or let's make it the US)

[L@mplighterM]

Fundamentalist tourists!

[takeo]

From Europe i guess, or do you mean the Cubans? :D
(for once i can agree with you that Miami Cubans are terrorists)

[L@mplighterM]

Apr. 30, 2002
London synagogue desecrated
By Douglas Davis


LONDON - A synagogue in the Finsbury Park district of North London was extensively damaged when vandals broke in and desecrated the building.

A swastika was daubed on the raised platform supporting the Ark of the Covenant, all the windows were smashed, most of the prayer books were destroyed, excrement was deposited in the lobby and paint was daubed throughout the interior. A Union Jack flag was also left at the scene.


http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020146441958

[L@mplighterM]

Bush Says U.S. Rejects French Anti-Semitic Acts

April 30, 2002 02:37 PM ET






SAN JOSE, Calif. (Reuters) - Under pressure to denounce a wave of anti-Semitism in Europe and Arab countries, President Bush said Tuesday the United States rejects "the ancient evil of anti-Semitism."

"America rejects bigotry," Bush said in a speech to Silicon Valley business and civic leaders.

He reiterated calls for tolerance toward Arabs and Muslims and said, "We reject the ancient evil of anti-Semitism, whether is practiced by the killers of (Wall Street Journal reporter) Daniel Pearl or those who burn synagogues in France."

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=politicsnews&StoryID=901879

[cerulean]

The London synagogue that was attacked is near the infamous Finsbury Park mosque, where Richard Reid, the infamous would-be shoe bomber, was recruited. The mosque is known to be a hive of terrorist activity, including links to the 20th hijacker. Perhaps the location is just coincidental. Then again, maybe not.

[L@mplighterM]

May. 7, 2002
Synagogue desecrated in southern Russia
By The Itim News Agency


The door of a 130-year-old synagogue was set on fire in Rostov, in southern Russia, on Sunday. A window of the synagogue was broken after Jewish community members put out the fire.

The rabbi of the Jewish community, Elyashiv Kaplan, said windows of the city's old synagogue have been broken five times in recent weeks. "Since Pessah the atmosphere has been unpleasant; Jews have been cursed and even spat at," Kaplan said.

Approximately 10,000 Jews live in Rostov, which has a total population of around 1.25 million.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020670662408

[Mediocrates]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1974000/1974377.stm

Karachi bomb blast kills 15 - luckily though 10 of the victims were French. Oh well another thing for takeo to chalk up to the Jews and the US's fault. So sad. I mean......<obligatory comment on the deplorable bombing yadda yadda inserted here>

[takeo]

"luckily though 10 of the victims were French" :mad:

do you mean this???
it shows france is as much an ennemy of islamic fundamentalism as israel or the US, (i don't mean the palestinian cause)

[thrud]

Originally posted by takeo
"luckily though 10 of the victims were French" :mad:

do you mean this???
it shows france is as much an ennemy of islamic fundamentalism as israel or the US, (i don't mean the palestinian cause) takeo, I do not think there can be much distinction between te two. People are working to connect al Queda to Hamas and Fatah. Many of the members of al Queda are avidly anti-French becuase of past colonial incursions into their home lands. They wil not hesitate to kill you because you happen to be pro-Palestinian; you are French and that is reason enough in their eyes to put you in a little pine box.

On the other hand, I hope you wake up and stop selling out the women and children in the middle east (Jewish and Palestinians) who ae victems of assar Arafats corruuption and hatred.

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Karachi bomb blast kills 15 - luckily though 10 of the victims were French. [/B]


:mad:

What kind of sick remark is this? That's like saying. Yesterday 15 Israeli's were killed in a suicide attack. Luckily they were just Jews. You're remark is pure racism. I think the Webmaster should take actions against such comments

[Mediocrates]

Feel free: After all I'm a zionist racist antiarab anti EU anti Afghan anti communist and yadda yadda yadda hating killing pro Sharon repressive oppressive capitalist pig. I'm too busy chewing tobacco, polishing by cowboy boots and cleaning my guns anyway..

Why should we weep one alligator tear for one more dead Frenchman? Did someone order them at gunpoint to be there?Maybe you can blame that on the Jews too? Better yet, burn a Pakistani flag in front of their embassy in Paris and stand for solidarity.

[christian]

Originally posted by takeo
"luckily though 10 of the victims were French" :mad:



Takeo, Belgium

You misread it.

It should be like this.

"luckily though 3000 of the victims were American in 9-11"

Why should we weep one alligator tear for one more dead "American"? Did someone order them at gunpoint to be there?Maybe you can blame that on the jews too? Better yet, burn a "American" flag in front of their embassy in Paris and stand for solidarity.


How do you feel mr. mediocrate? If I say something like that. :mad:

[Mediocrates]

been there done that bought the t-shirt hear it every day

"we hate you yanks - now take us with you when you leave....!"

[Belgium@EU]

That's humour you yanks don't understand. Your view on Europe is so simplistic, we can't do else than to laugh with it.

I heard an American who thought we didn't have elevators yet in Europe. Wester-Europe has the same living standard as the US, it's only dumb yanks who still think that America is the only good place to live in.

[Mediocrates]

Well garshg as soon as we all get shoes and plumbing we'll all load up the truck and mosey on down to y'all.

A Belgian walked through the forest when he heard a cry for help. He found a dwarf, stuck in a trap. He freed the dwarf, and the dwarf granted him two wishes.
'My first wish' the Belgian said, 'is a bottle of beer that will never be empty.'

And flash, there was the bottle. The Belgian opened it, and drank it empty. The next moment, the bottle was full again. The Belgian was very happy.

'What is your second wish ?', the dwarf asked.

The Belgian replied: 'I want another bottle'
***********

A Belgian met a Dutch friend, who was driving a Rolls Royce and spending money like water.
'How did you het so rich?' the Belgian asked.

'I went to Canada, to shoot bears. The fur coats are very expensive.'

'How do you go about shooting bears?'

'It's very simple. You should go there in winter. When you enter a cave you will find a bear. Since it is in hybernation, it is very easy to shoot it.'

Three months later they meet again. This time the Belgian is entirely wrapped in bandages.

'What has happened to you?'

'Well' the Belgian replies: 'I went to Canada, I entered a cave with my gun, and then suddenly... the train came'.
*************

Did you know the Belgian Ministry of Transport has introduced a new sign?
It reads "End of Roundabout".
*************
What sign do they put on the bottom of Belgian swimming pools?
"No smoking".

[L@mplighterM]

*LOL*

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU



:mad:

What kind of sick remark is this? That's like saying. Yesterday 15 Israeli's were killed in a suicide attack. Luckily they were just Jews. You're remark is pure racism. I think the Webmaster should take actions against such comments

You seem to be more upset with frogs getting croaked vrs Jews being subjected to terrorist attacks. It really shows.

You Arabs are quick to use the word racist and that’s really calling the kettle black.

[Belgium@EU]

LOL. BTW, I'm not an Arab. I'm a pure European. I'm a christian, I live in democracy, so don't come with that arab-****.

http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~rpr/usa/usa-index.htm

[takeo]

it shows that you guys have no empathy at all if the victims aren't americans or Israeli. The whole world stood with the US and declared sympathy when 11/9 happened, but the US doesn't mind killing 1000's of people in other countries and only a small minority of Americans will resist. I think that even in Israel there is greater resistance againts massacres committed by its army than in the US., as long as no Americans are killed why bother... When the French army massacred Algerians almost half of the French were marching in the streets against the occupation.
By the way the French workers were civilians, no military, and they were helping us-infrastructure in Pakistan. If it was my decision we sould all send them home and let us-people take the risk instead.
There is a great difference between fundamentalism and palestinian uprising, palestinians have a justified cause against the destruction of their people and their land by Israel, while fundamentalists want to conquer the world with their fanatic version of Islam, Saoudi's and pakistani extremists are not oppressed by anyone except their own leaders, they just use the palestinian cause as propaganda, but they don't really care, palestinians have no sympathy for guys like Osama bin laden and afghan/Pakistan lunatic terrorists.
by the way mediocre, we like to laugh, but don't you know any better ones???

you know the hit of Geri Halliwell is very popular in Pakistan since 11th september...

[Belgium@EU]

I preferred the song by Leonard Cohen. Or the one from REM.
Sorry, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.


But Takeo, you're not completely right. In the 60's (Flower Power), the Americans were also protesting and marching in the streets. That's why Vietnam ended (not because of military problems, US was stronger than Vietcong). But since 9-11 it seems like all Americans have lost their feeling of reality, empathy, sympathy towards other people who are not immediatelly related to the US. Than one has to think why the Americans are so hated all over the world.

Did you know that on the 9-11 there weren't more war casualties than on any other day? 3000 people killed in A'gan, Sierra Leone, Iraq, Angola, Columbia ... who still cares? 3000 Americans+Europeans killed : the world has stopped. It's not only Americans who think that way, also many Europeans.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by takeo
let me first respond to the hatefull article published here.
It is claiming that Europe capitulate for the "evil" as it did in Vichy, because union strikes get more social benefits, Arabs in Europe are met with the same standards as Jews (of course completely unacceptable to zionists who consider Jews to have more rights than Arabs) and Europe tries to use diplomacy and economy instead of brute force as israel and the US.

The point is that Europe has steadily attempted to appease aggressors instead of stopping the aggression.

Europe also has one standard, human rigths violations in Yougoslavia aren't any different from human rights violations in Palestine, and no country has the right to occupy other countries.

Palestine is not actually a country, by definition. It is a territory that was gained by Israel in a war started by Arabs. Also Israel has not targeted civilians, as was the case in the former Yugoslavia. Which once again, the US had to step in to handle because of the appeasement tactics of the EU.

In the US and israel however the one with the biggest gun and the most cash will decide who is a war-criminal and who isn't, the press, dominated by politics and big money, will follow (well, some companies as CNN are considered not pro-israeli enough by the zionist lobby).

Haven't you noticed yet, that history is written by the victors? If the US had not reconquered your country for your grandfather, Nazi Germany would have written what little history you know.

The result is that in the European union there is much less poverty than in the states, more equality, social programms, and all the money spend by the us and israel on military is in Europe invested in social programs to help the economy and the poor.
The US policy of devellopment aid is military, with as a result that the direct neighbours of the us are amongst the poorest in the world (Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, etc.)

Funny you should mention the countries whose main exports are narcotics.

Also European prisons are much more human than US or Israeli prisons, with as a result that criminals in israel and the us get even more criminal in prison than before.

Prisons in the US and Israel are not inhumane. Criminals get more criminal as you put it, from socializing with other criminals. That whole sharing of ideas thing. One last thought on prison.
IT'S PRISON, PEOPLE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO LIKE IT!

Unfortunately the US and israel were stuck in military thinking, with as a result that these countries are much more violent than Europe, these countries are lacking any compassion or reconvertion for the "loosers", indeed you can say these countries lack the Christian value of "compassion" with the other, which is one of the good things about christiannity.

Who do you think reconverted Germany and Japan? The same country that has already budgeted 750 million dollars for this year alone to rebuild Afganistan. That is compassion, and the christian thing to do.

on this board you can see that people are only seeing the suffering of their own people, never the suffering of other people (much bigger) , in the end this will revenge itself, as we have seen on 11th september and as we are seeing daily in Israel.

Your last statement implies that you sanction the 11th of September attack on the United States. I find that quite repulsive. How exactly can you condone the deaths of over 3000 people who could have cared less about Islam/Muslims/Osama Bin Laden/the Mideast?

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by christian
Takeo,

As I far as I can rememberl. China never have any stormy relationship with France and German in this five years. Nor ,china has any great conflicts with the European.

It is funny how the American picture us as a evil threat to the western world.

Actually,

I think like most Americans... Or not, but, I digress.. We don't have a problem with China, other than the odd human rights abuse case.

[Kinetic]

Takeo consistently mentions that the Palestinians are at war with Israel. If that is the case, then civilians are fair game for both sides. If Israel were to act in fashion similar to the Palestinians, Israel would roll into the Gaza Strip and begin blasting buildings and any visible person, without regard to age, gender or role in acts of terror. As any country would do during a war. Simply remember WWII for examples of this.

Or should young Jews attack Arabs in a similar fashion, because of their frustration with events in the holy land? Probably not, as half the Jews in France would be in French prisons, getting "reconverted".

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by Kinetic
1. If Israel were to act in fashion similar to the Palestinians, Israel would roll into the Gaza Strip and begin blasting buildings and any visible person, without regard to age, gender or role in acts of terror.

2. Or should young Jews attack Arabs in a similar fashion, because of their frustration with events in the holy land? Probably not, as half the Jews in France would be in French prisons, getting "reconverted".

1. But that is what Israel is doing. Killing civilians, pregnant women by "accident". Children who throw stones at them ... Not all Palestinians are terrorists.

2. There is no Holy Land. That's just a fairy tail from the Bible. The Bible is no reliable source. can we please keep religious facts out of this discussion. The bible is a book full of contradictions. Anyone who believes what the Bible says is an extremist. The "Book" should not be read literally, just as the Koran. "Jihad" in islam is not a war, it's more like an internal conflict between good and evil, not between religions.

[NewsGuy]

This discussion is continued in Part 2 (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=7392#post7392).