Why do TERRORISTS SUCCEED?

[Noam]

Simple

They RELY on OUR CIVILITY.

They can Attack INNOCENT WOMEN and CHILDREN

THEY CAN BLOW UP RESORT AREAS

THEY CAN GAS A THEATRE

THEY CAN BLOW UP 2000 Year old BUDDHIST TEMPLES

THEY CAN HIDE WEAPONS AND TERRORISTS INSIDE AMBULANCES

THEY CAN HIDE IN A MOSQUE



BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE WE ARE WESTERN, CIVILIZED, HAVE MORAL VALUES and WE WILL NOT USE THEIR WAYS....


Well, So did the Japanese until HIROSHIMA.


THE TIME OF TERRORISTS is QUICKLY GROWING SHORT!!!!!

[danholo]

Because we're pussies and THEY know it...

It is essential to show to those who want to destroy us or dominate us that we are not weak. Arab mentality is based on honor and being weak is shameful in their eyes.

[David_in_NYC]

I guess every half-century or so we're going to have to wipe out a city or two to get their attention.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Noam
Simple

They RELY on OUR CIVILITY.

They can Attack INNOCENT WOMEN and CHILDREN

THEY CAN BLOW UP RESORT AREAS

THEY CAN GAS A THEATRE

THEY CAN BLOW UP 2000 Year old BUDDHIST TEMPLES

THEY CAN HIDE WEAPONS AND TERRORISTS INSIDE AMBULANCES

THEY CAN HIDE IN A MOSQUE



BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE WE ARE WESTERN, CIVILIZED, HAVE MORAL VALUES and WE WILL NOT USE THEIR WAYS....


Well, So did the Japanese until HIROSHIMA.


THE TIME OF TERRORISTS is QUICKLY GROWING SHORT!!!!!


I linked your thread to:

HOW CAN SURRENDER TO TERROR LEAD TO ANYTHING BUT MORE TERROR? (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&postid=93047#post93047)

I thought you may want to consider this question and contribute some of your thoughts; we see the Gaza initiative follow the Oslo nightmare and wonder about the evergrowing terror network that includes 9,11 (the full circle completion to the 1993 bombing of the WTC which was not dealt with by the Clinton Administration) and which is now no longer limited to a small area in the world.

[Batman]

Originally posted by danholo
Because we're pussies and THEY know it...

It is essential to show to those who want to destroy us or dominate us that we are not weak. Arab mentality is based on honor and being weak is shameful in their eyes.

Yet these ARabs are the biggest COWARDS attacking babies and innocents like the Munich murdered Israeli Olympic Team members and that elderly victim in a wheelchair on that ship (don't remember the exact name) etc etc to this day, adolescents in a discoteque, diners in restaurants, holocaust survivors having a Passover meal in a hotel, mothers walking their babies and on and on and on....these ARabs are the biggest pussies that ever walked the earth, hiding behind children etc. Not only that, the leaders of Hamas have NOT sent their own children to kill themselves in suicide missions, nor has Arafat committed suicide (yet) for his so called 'cause.' (everyone knows Arafat's ONLY cause is really to inflate his Swiss bank account through donations from the EU etc.)

Although it's a Saudi paper it has hit it on the head---See:Editorial: Long Battle Against Evil (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=43600&d=22&m=4&y=2004&pix=opinion.jpg&category=Opinion)

excerpt:
"Only patience and care will defeat these twisted bigots. The initial advantage always lies with the terrorists who hide themselves in the backdrops of everyday life. It is they who choose the moment for the next bestial attack, having planned carefully how to sneak back into their hiding places. "

[Atdee]

The terrorists acts in killing innocent are simply fair and just retaliation to their rivals' actions in killing their people. Israel keeps on killing palestinians as they thought the suicide bombers activities could be ceased by military might. While the palestinians thought that it's not the way to stop them. Instead ,the only way is to recognize their right to have an independent state and to respect them as a human being not as animal who can be easily shot and murdered. Yes, Israel people is the people selected by God (Allah), as per mentioned in the AL-Quran, but that is during the older days when Moses is appointed as messiah with the revealation of Torah. Thus, Israel people's dignity was indirectly up-graded due to Moses appointment as messiah.

There are 3 religions that originally from the same root and worship the same God but the most invied of is Islam as it is a fast growing religion. The invy or jealousy cause Islam or Muslem to be oppressed in every angles except when the muslem practice those practices which are against Islamic laws.




Originally posted by Noam
Simple

They RELY on OUR CIVILITY.

They can Attack INNOCENT WOMEN and CHILDREN

THEY CAN BLOW UP RESORT AREAS

THEY CAN GAS A THEATRE

THEY CAN BLOW UP 2000 Year old BUDDHIST TEMPLES

THEY CAN HIDE WEAPONS AND TERRORISTS INSIDE AMBULANCES

THEY CAN HIDE IN A MOSQUE



BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE WE ARE WESTERN, CIVILIZED, HAVE MORAL VALUES and WE WILL NOT USE THEIR WAYS....


Well, So did the Japanese until HIROSHIMA.


THE TIME OF TERRORISTS is QUICKLY GROWING SHORT!!!!!

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Atdee
The terrorists acts in killing innocent are simply fair and just retaliation to their rivals' actions in killing their people. Israel keeps on killing palestinians as they thought the suicide bombers activities could be ceased by military might. While the palestinians thought that it's not the way to stop them. Instead ,the only way is to recognize their right to have an independent state and to respect them as a human being not as animal who can be easily shot and murdered. Yes, Israel people is the people selected by God (Allah), as per mentioned in the AL-Quran, but that is during the older days when Moses is appointed as messiah with the revealation of Torah. Thus, Israel people's dignity was indirectly up-graded due to Moses appointment as messiah.

There are 3 religions that originally from the same root and worship the same God but the most invied of is Islam as it is a fast growing religion. The invy or jealousy cause Islam or Muslem to be oppressed in every angles except when the muslem practice those practices which are against Islamic laws.

No, purposely killing Israeli women, children and elderly is immoral. Your fascist ideology (Islamism) is not envied for spreading death and destruction, it is reviled.

But thanks for admitting Muslims consider killing Jewish children "just and fair." Many if us have known this all along, but many others in the West find it hard to believe.

A growing number of people favor using much more force against primitive, backwards, brutal, murderous Islamists such as you. We have had enough of your savage beheadings, your racism, teaching your male children they will be rewarded with eternal promiscuity if they kill Jews, and your complaints that you are "oppressed" because the world refuses to let you impose your ignorant and vile practices--wife-beating, slavery, and jihad to name a few--on everyone else.

But go ahead, continue to preach and celebrate mass murder. The day is coming when the West will wake up. Your backwards and unenlightened culture is no match for ours, and you will be very sorry when you discover that Allah gave us nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them so we could defend civilization against your Islamo-arrogance, hypocrisy, and barbarism.

[Atdee]

No point bombing the muslem population with nuclear bomb as it does not carry any impact to them. They love living in the hereafter more than living in this world. They believe that they will be awarded a much bigger heaven in the hereafter. Actually the universe belong to muslem as Adam and Ave are muslem, All prophets including christian's Jesus and Jew's Moses are muslem as muslem means "Those who surrender to God". Islam means "surrender to God". "mus" means the person who do.

It's not purposely, it's due to no other choice to retaliate as israel army's too smart and too defiant to teach. To Israel army, arab muslem are just like gruesome worm that need to be eradicate regardless they are innocent or not. Therefore to give a similar impact to the israel that their military might roadshow is fruitless for peace finding purposes, the innocent people have to sacrifice for the wrongdoing of their leader. Israel's army is too strong to penetrate. So..Isreal army is responsible for the attack to the innocent. But dont worry too much...innocent person died in the event to retaliate, they will go to heaven while those bad and sinful person will go to hell just like their leaders.

D'ont misinterprate Al-quran content on "slavery", "wife beating" and "jihad" if you know very little knowledge on the history of Islam and histrory of Al-Quran revealetion as it could lead to desirous slander which biased towards influencing others by wrongly interprate the verses. The satan would very much like something good to look bad, misleading, confused, so that human can never found the truth. So these kind of verses are much manipulated by satan to confuse human on the truth.



Originally posted by ibrodsky
No, purposely killing Israeli women, children and elderly is immoral. Your fascist ideology (Islamism) is not envied for spreading death and destruction, it is reviled.

But thanks for admitting Muslims consider killing Jewish children "just and fair." Many if us have known this all along, but many others in the West find it hard to believe.

A growing number of people favor using much more force against primitive, backwards, brutal, murderous Islamists such as you. We have had enough of your savage beheadings, your racism, teaching your male children they will be rewarded with eternal promiscuity if they kill Jews, and your complaints that you are "oppressed" because the world refuses to let you impose your ignorant and vile practices--wife-beating, slavery, and jihad to name a few--on everyone else.

But go ahead, continue to preach and celebrate mass murder. The day is coming when the West will wake up. Your backwards and unenlightened culture is no match for ours, and you will be very sorry when you discover that Allah gave us nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them so we could defend civilization against your Islamo-arrogance, hypocrisy, and barbarism.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Atdee
There are 3 religions that originally from the same root and worship the same God but the most invied of is Islam as it is a fast growing religion. The invy or jealousy cause Islam or Muslem to be oppressed in every angles except when the muslem practice those practices which are against Islamic laws.


I personally have a deep and sincere respect for anyone who's belief in God leads them to be a good person, and that certainly includes Muslims.

Having said that, I can’t think of anything about Islam that is to be envied. Why would you make such a nonsensical statement?

[Ralph63]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Your backwards and unenlightened culture is no match for ours, and you will be very sorry when you discover that Allah gave us nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them so we could defend civilization against your Islamo-arrogance, hypocrisy, and barbarism
After reading above reply, I come to think of that famous nazi propaganda-movie (the one about sewerrats). Anyway - then doomsday arrives, remember the fifth commandment; "You shall not kill". It doesnt say "You shall not murder" or "You shall not kill without just cause". It just say: "You shall not kill". [period]

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Ralph63
After reading above reply, I come to think of that famous nazi propaganda-movie (the one about sewerrats). Anyway - then doomsday arrives, remember the fifth commandment; "You shall not kill". It doesnt say "You shall not murder" or "You shall not kill without just cause". It just say: "You shall not kill". [period]

Sorry, but it says "Thou shalt not murder". Or in Hebrew: "Lo Tir'tzah". And if that is not enough, it apears twice in the Torah. Exodus 20:12 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0220.htm) and Deuteronomy 5:16 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0505.htm).

It is an absured that a like of yours will teach WE JEWS about OUR OWN civilization, culture and morality!!!

Now, your bible may be rewritten and badly translated from hebrew just to fit into Christian point of view. I don't know and I don't care.

We follow the Hebrew bible in the book original language. And this is the only version that counts for us, Jews.
.

BTW, it is intersting to realize, you like to watch Nazi propaganda movies in your spare time.

[Ralph63]

Gilgamesh: "Sorry, but it says "Thou shalt not murder". Or in Hebrew: "Lo Tir'tzah". And if that is not enough, it apears twice in the Torah."

Well, thats explains it all. Israels destiny, I mean.

Gilgamesh: "It is an absured that a like of yours will teach WE JEWS about OUR OWN civilization, culture and morality!!!"

Look, all I want to point out that one cannot exterminate the enemy by killing them, just as little as one can exterminate weeds by sowing it. And above all: on cannot do it with loosing credibility. The Nazis couldnt do that with their gaschambers, and mr. ibrodsky cant do it either with his imaginary nuclear bombs and missiles either.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Atdee
The terrorists acts in killing innocent are simply fair and just retaliation to their rivals' actions in killing their people. Israel keeps on killing palestinians as they thought the suicide bombers activities could be ceased by military might. Ever since Israel started using military messures to stop terrorism, Arab terrorism decreesed dramaticly.

Axiome: Dead Arab terrorist are not involoved in terrorism. Conclusion: Kill Arab terrorist to end Arab terrorism.

Arabs who are not invloved in terrorism are perfectly safe.
Fact: There are millions of Arabs in Israel and Gaza, Judea and Samria (fallsely called "the territoris").

Had Israel been a REAL enemy of ALL muslems, believe us there was no ONE single muslems with in our borders.

If killing of men women and children who happened to be Jewish, in Israel and abroad, seems far, then carpet bombings of muslems all over the world is just as fair. Fact is that Israel desn't carpet bomb muslems, but only kill the terrorists. Or else, there weren't so many muslems in the land of Israel.

While the palestinians thought that it's not the way to stop them. Instead ,the only way is to recognize their right to have an independent state and to respect them as a human being not as animal who can be easily shot and murdered. The terrorists demands is to deny all Jews from their national rights and to genocide all Jews for their are Jews. This is the sole reason why Jewish civilians are targeted by Arab terrorists.

We Jews cannot accept such a thing. We will not die with out a fight.

Arabs must understand that the war will continue and far greater numbers of their people will die for as long as the Arabs wish the war to continue. For we Jews will never give up. Muslems from all over the world must recognize the will of G-d all mighty in the restoration of Jewish sovereinity in the anciant land of Israel. Untill they do so, they will suffer. Arabs should not resist the word and will of the all mighty one, for this is the source of all muslem grievences.

We Jews want peace, but not under the condition of absolute surrender and the threat of genocide and the lost of our legitimte rights.

Yes, Israel people is the people selected by God (Allah), as per mentioned in the AL-Quran, but that is during the older days when Moses is appointed as messiah with the revealation of Torah. Thus, Israel people's dignity was indirectly up-graded due to Moses appointment as messiah. In our eyes, nothing was changed ever since. We only got wiser and smarter about the ways and laws of G-d, ever since.

There are 3 religions that originally from the same root and worship the same God but the most invied of is Islam as it is a fast growing religion. The invy or jealousy cause Islam or Muslem to be oppressed in every angles except when the muslem practice those practices which are against Islamic laws. None envy the muslems. Not among the Jews anyway.

Islam is in a bad shape and stuck in the past, self conflicting and includes too much paganism which are an insult to all believers in one G-d. Islam preserves ignorance for the benefit of the few an oppresses nations and women for the benefit of selected ones. G-d has made it clear, that oppression and curroption is evil. Islam in it's current form, is evil.

We hate being associated with Islam and any way or for. Today, Islam is a disgrace as a religion or ideology or way of life.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Ralph63
Gilgamesh: "Sorry, but it says "Thou shalt not murder". Or in Hebrew: "Lo Tir'tzah". And if that is not enough, it apears twice in the Torah."

Well, thats explains it all. Israels destiny, I mean. I wish you eleborate about "Israeli destiny".

Gilgamesh: "It is an absured that a like of yours will teach WE JEWS about OUR OWN civilization, culture and morality!!!"

Look, all I want to point out that one cannot exterminate the enemy by killing them, just as little as one can exterminate weeds by sowing it. idiotic and stupid analogy. If one kill his enemies, they are dead, not multypling. I hope you do not suggest that all Arabs are terrorists. It is racist thing to say. The majority of Arabs wish to live. Had they participated in terrorism, they'd die for sure, sooner or later. They know that and avoid terrorism.

Fact is that in the land Israel there are millions of Arabs who are safe and unharmed, who live peacfuly.

And above all: on cannot do it with loosing credibility. The Nazis couldnt do that with their gaschambers, and mr. ibrodsky cant do it either with his imaginary nuclear bombs and missiles either. What the hack credability has to do with the holocuast or the current situation? What the heck are you talking about?

If israel would be attacked with WMD Isael will retaliate. If Israel would believe that unconventional pre-emptive strike will save the lives of millions, Israel will attack first.

The only way anybody get avoid being attacked by us, is not to threaten us with such weapons.

[Mediocrates]

It says 'do not murder'. Any other interpretation is nonsense because there are clearly defined capital crimes in the Torah.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Ralph63
After reading above reply, I come to think of that famous nazi propaganda-movie (the one about sewerrats). Anyway - then doomsday arrives, remember the fifth commandment; "You shall not kill". It doesnt say "You shall not murder" or "You shall not kill without just cause". It just say: "You shall not kill". [period]

No actually it doesn't. Sorry.

[Mediocrates]

By the By the Tamil Tigers are Buddhists. Clearly even in Buddism there is a proviso allowing one to kill.

[Atdee]

Sorry, I made an incomplete ststement. The statement actually suits more to older days during prophet Mohammad time where Jews and Jesus Christ followers envied of the revealation of Al-Quran which was beside admitting the revealation of other holy books by God earlier, also clearly stated that Prophet Mohammad is the last prophet and Islam is the religion of God. As they fanaticly want their respective prophet to be the last and to be honored the best, they forced themselves not to accept this facts and this attitudes heriditated from generation to generation till today. God has tested and still testing the faith of the Moses's and Jesus's followers by appointing the last prophet from a non-civilized and irrespectable race of Arab so that it is easier for the human to be confused by the satan and in fact the satan has succeeded influencing the human for already 1,800 years.

Nowadays, these Moses's and Jesus's followers have no longer envied Muslim as they are more advanced and developed than the Muslem before, as they don't compare religiously but compare purely on worldly life and metarialistic. They have already forgotten about what had haunted their ancestors in the matter of the last prophecy and the true religion of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad who were actually delivered the same preach or "surrender to God" in arabic "ISLAM". In fact, nowadays, as a result of this Islamic world population being lagging behind economically and technologically, they look down very much to muslim and this top up to their reasonings of religious sceptical impression towards Islam, in tandem with heriditary cultivated by their ancestors.


Originally posted by Mycroft
I personally have a deep and sincere respect for anyone who's belief in God leads them to be a good person, and that certainly includes Muslims.

Having said that, I can’t think of anything about Islam that is to be envied. Why would you make such a nonsensical statement?

[Mediocrates]

So is Islam why terrorists succeed or does this proselytizing belong in another folder.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by Ralph63

Look, all I want to point out that one cannot exterminate the enemy by killing them, just as little as one can exterminate weeds by sowing it. And above all: on cannot do it with loosing credibility. The Nazis couldnt do that with their gaschambers, and mr. ibrodsky cant do it either with his imaginary nuclear bombs and missiles either.

It's plain stupid to use the commandment "thou shalt not murder" to apply it to every situation. If your life is threatened, do you really think the Torah forbids to kill your enemy? That's just plain stupid!

[KSO]

Well about the nuclear bombs, let's remember an ancient joke:
The presidents of Russia, US and poland meet to a big summit, the Russian Prez starts bragging : "
My scientists have developed a new computes it has 3 buttons, I press the first one, and the US goes Ka-Boom! I press the second button all the NATO countries explodes, and I press the third button and all the world but Russia explodes.
The US president says: "Just so happens my scientists developed a computes that also has 3 buttons, I press the first one Russia explodes, I press the second one all the Muslim countries explode and I press the third button and all the world but the US explodes.
The Polish president: "Well let me tell you a story my grandmother came from a very noble Polish family, they had a big house in the middle of Warsaw, and in the house they had 3 toilets, the first one made out of silver,the second one made completely out of gold and the third one made out of diamonds, but in 45 when the Red army marched in... she crapped her pants on the stairs.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by KSO
Well about the nuclear bombs, let's remember an ancient joke:
The presidents of Russia, US and poland meet to a big summit, the Russian Prez starts bragging : "
My scientists have developed a new computes it has 3 buttons, I press the first one, and the US goes Ka-Boom! I press the second button all the NATO countries explodes, and I press the third button and all the world but Russia explodes.
The US president says: "Just so happens my scientists developed a computes that also has 3 buttons, I press the first one Russia explodes, I press the second one all the Muslim countries explode and I press the third button and all the world but the US explodes.
The Polish president: "Well let me tell you a story my grandmother came from a very noble Polish family, they had a big house in the middle of Warsaw, and in the house they had 3 toilets, the first one made out of silver,the second one made completely out of gold and the third one made out of diamonds, but in 45 when the Red army marched in... she crapped her pants on the stairs.

You are right, KSO. There is no single law that allowes the use of such weapons, Israel claims, do not exist.

Personaly, I am against the ambiguty policy. I would like Israel to enjoy identical position as British, French or American nuclear WMD. I also belive, that with demiliterized de facto, europe, Israel has one of the largest armies in the world, at least bigger then that of france. Israel has a right for a permanent seat in the security council. (but then how would the Arabs condem Israel?).

since there is no law, in theory, a far left organization may appeal the suprim court against the goverment and the army from using the weapons in time of need.

There are issues unresolved in israel about the use of these weapons, and unless we deal with it now, the issues will bite us in the leg later.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
[B]You are right, KSO. There is no single law that allowes the use of such weapons, Israel claims, do not exist.

Personaly, I am against the ambiguty policy. I would like Israel to enjoy identical position as British, French or American nuclear WMD. B]

So.. Mordechay Vaanunu (Or whatever his name is now) should be declared a hero...

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Atdee
No point bombing the muslem population with nuclear bomb as it does not carry any impact to them. They love living in the hereafter more than living in this world. They believe that they will be awarded a much bigger heaven in the hereafter.
So, if I understand correctly, we would be doing muslims a great service by dispatching them to the hereafter. What's the problem?

[Mediocrates]

That's the rationale that all suicidal death cults whip up from the Arabs to David Koresh. "You can't beat us because we want to be dead....and we'l take as many of you with us as we can."


Which I suppose is what atdee is saying, but what he/she is really saying is that that is the nature of muslim cultures at their core. It's a profound truth and it lies at the foundation of why they are all unsuccessful societies in the real world.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by KSO
So.. Mordechay Vaanunu (Or whatever his name is now) should be declared a hero...

Of course not!

No one appointed Va'avnnu to change Israel's policy. And Israel position as owner of such weapons, is NOT secure.

Had our position was secured from, say sanctions, then ambiguity
could be lifted.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
That's the rationale that all suicidal death cults whip up from the Arabs to David Koresh. "You can't beat us because we want to be dead....and we'l take as many of you with us as we can."


Which I suppose is what atdee is saying, but what he/she is really saying is that that is the nature of muslim cultures at their core. It's a profound truth and it lies at the foundation of why they are all unsuccessful societies in the real world.

As people who want are ready to die, Most Arabs do great efforts, to hide disguise or vanish with the apporach of our troops.

Many Arabs were hiding behind children, disguised as wounded people, dead or women. For people who wish to die, they seem to do everything to avoid death or capture...

They are not sending children for no reason... a childed can easily be fooled to do things grown up are too fearful for doing.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Of course not!

No one appointed Va'avnnu to change Israel's policy. And Israel position as owner of such weapons, is NOT secure.

Had our position was secured from, say sanctions, then ambiguity
could be lifted.

Well there are 3 types of approach to nuclear armor

a: Countries who posses Nukes, they openly talk about it, it includes countries like the US, Russia, UK, France China ext...

b: Countries who may posses Nukes, but they don't talk about it because they regime is dangerous, it includes countries like Iran and Lybia.

c: Countries who probably do not posses atomic weapons, but wants everybody to think they have and they are crazy enough to use them because then no one will touch them. It includes N. Korea.

I don't know about you, I preffer Israel to be in the first list.

[Mediocrates]

Doctrines exist not because of what you believe but because of what you think you want your opponents to believe. The Big 5: US, Russia, France, UK and the PRC have a transparent or semi transparent policy because of a long standing doctrine of MAD and balanced expectations or what they used to call the balance of terror. I tell you what I have in order to ensure that I know that whatever you do to me I will do the same to you, and you know that too. It is predicated on rational actors - that countries don't prefer to self destruct or that barring an existential threat or catestrophic attack they would not fire off and destroy a country for no other obvious reason. This is called the no first strike doctrine. This is also the doctrine that Israel has adopted.

The problem with the rational actor theorem is that it requires rational actors. Middle eastern states have made public political statements that demomstrating they are not rational. Iran has officially stated that when (not if) it gets the Islamic bomb it will (decide whether to) use it on Israel. This was followed up by the statement that "Israel is a small country - we need only hit you once while we can survive 70 or 80 attacks."

This is clearly not a rational actor. One - it assumes that Iran will attack whenever it has the ability to do so regardless of the threat. Two - it assumes that total or near total self destruction is irrelevant to its first strike goal. This has the effect of neutralizing Israel's second strike potential because Iran has clearly stated that they don't care about the the consequences to themselves and their own people in the prosecution of their Islamic revolution. During the Cold War one could say at least that the driving force was the preservation of our way of life. In Iran's case clearly their doctrine is the antithesis of preserving anything and it falls short of any indentifiable ideology or goal besides the extermination of Jews.

The next problem Israel faces is what I call the the Dr. Evil Syndrome. That is where tinhorn tyrannies get their hands on nuclear weapons but are too paranoid to institute any reliable safeguards or tactical usage escalation doctrine that would limit or control their use. In Iran, and the Arab states there is absolutely no notion of 'cvilian' control so that nuclear weapons are literally managed by the giant red button mounted on a giant gold altar behind the throne. Or something quite like it. There would be none of the usual failsafes or even an escalation process which could conceivably take the launch control out of the hands of whatever crazed mullah has his quivering claw on the button to do whatever Allah commands him to do.

The third case is more serious because it speaks to covert use under the guise of non state actors. The DPRK, aside from the fact that it will be the next country with the ICBM capability to hit the USA with whatever payload it can mount, is country that openly sells whatever it can to whomever it wants. This is 'official' policy. It is the world's nuclear flea market and contries can either buy technology semi-opnely or, under the cover of plausible deniability can outsource their foreign policy apparatus to terrorist groups who will either broker the deal or simply buy the technology and use it under the vague guidelines of their parent state. If Syria can't nuke Tel Aviv then certainly Hezbollah gives them political cover to do so, for example. Very soon then the world is awash in various complete, semi complete nuclear systems that are publically under no one's control but in reality are joint ventures among different arab states and terrorist groups.


So then what does opacity serve? When it is unclear who of your local enemies possesses what it makes sense for Israel to be vague on its capabilties if not its intentions. If Iran and Egypt and Saudi Arabia don't actually have nuclear weapons then Israel's stating that it does escalates an implied threat more than is necessary and indicates that conventional forces can be attacked by these other countries more or less as they have in the past. This becomes a very expensive proposition for Israel to maintain. Whereas if those states openly acquire or develop nuclear weapons then Israel's policy must change to one of MAD or something like MAD if only to draw in the Arab world's EU supporters so that they understand their support comes with an implicit risk as well, at least to their client states in the mid east.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by KSO
Well there are 3 types of approach to nuclear armor

a: Countries who posses Nukes, they openly talk about it, it includes countries like the US, Russia, UK, France China ext...

b: Countries who may posses Nukes, but they don't talk about it because they regime is dangerous, it includes countries like Iran and Lybia.

c: Countries who probably do not posses atomic weapons, but wants everybody to think they have and they are crazy enough to use them because then no one will touch them. It includes N. Korea.

I don't know about you, I preffer Israel to be in the first list. I want Israel to be in the first list as well, but I doubt it is possible. Ambiguity is now our only option, for as much as I don't like it.

Maybe, if Israel will be more financialy secure, better resiliant to snactions and political pressures, we will be able to face the world with a fact, wether the world likes it or not.

At the same time, israel must formulate a doctrine for using such weapons. Both as weapons of vengience as well as pre-emptive first strike weapons.

We must also, remind the world, that with out such weapons, Israel will have no choice but lead a far more agressive pre-emptive military policy against our enemies.

With out nukes to deter Hizzballa from filling their katyushas with VX or even lowly sarin or clorine... Israel will have to liberate lebanon, again!

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Atdee
Sorry, I made an incomplete ststement. The statement actually suits more to older days during prophet Mohammad time where Jews and Jesus Christ followers envied of the revealation of Al-Quran which was beside admitting the revealation of other holy books by God earlier, also clearly stated that Prophet Mohammad is the last prophet and Islam is the religion of God.

It sounds like projection to me.

[Tyxec]

Originally posted by danholo
Because we're pussies and THEY know it...

It is essential to show to those who want to destroy us or dominate us that we are not weak. Arab mentality is based on honor and being weak is shameful in their eyes.

Not everyone is, and those who are trying to change all that are being clubbered by the leftists aka neo fascists.

If you think about it the terorists arent the real problem but the 'socialist neo marxists pro fascist nihilists' in the west coming from the left - IS.

If it wasnt for the media constantly distorting facts to suit the ever increasing muslim arab barbaric worlds, noone would care.
Its going to take a hunder 9-11 to get these spineless bitches to realise what is going on in the world.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Tyxec
Not everyone is, and those who are trying to change all that are being clubbered by the leftists aka neo fascists.

If you think about it the terorists arent the real problem but the 'socialist neo marxists pro fascist nihilists' in the west coming from the left - IS.

If it wasnt for the media constantly distorting facts to suit the ever increasing muslim arab barbaric worlds, noone would care.
Its going to take a hunder 9-11 to get these spineless bitches to realise what is going on in the world.

And who gives these creatures, the post modern professors, the anti globalization demonstrators, and "peace activists" their money? Who pays the campaigns of far left politicians? Oil money! Terror money!!! Drug money!!! It is far simpler that what it looks. Arabs pay for all the mid east studies all over the world, including Israel (although through European mediators). The condition is that all professors will teach the line created in Arab propaganda ministires. Go out of line, and you are fired on the spot. As a student, write different independend opinions and you flank the course.

The battle is on the minds of the weak. Those who has margional self identity and great deal of ignorance about the real world, and recruit them to the Islamist cause.

Same goes for far left politicians. It was already established that great deal of European politicians got funds and benefits directly from Saddam Hussain alone. Now think about the Saudis, with all of THEIR money. Think who might run your white house next November, and how close was Israel in the mid 90's to be overrun from the inside!