France's Le Pen Effect

[Mediocrates]

Takeo I'm wondering how you feel about Le Pen:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=153419&contrassID=3&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y


the common consensus seems to be "if it weren't for the anti Semitism he's really a rather nice guy.."

[takeo]

thank you for the article, very interesting.

""I'm talking about the government and the French intelligentsia, too. The government would have preferred not to take a stand, but the constant presence of the Israeli-Arab conflict on our television screens made it an issue that could no longer be avoided. The result is that you are now experiencing what we experienced in the war in Algeria: The Israeli government says that it is a victim of terrorist activity, but this activity is less visible than the military strikes. I belonged to the 10th paratroop division that was ordered to destroy the terror in Algiers. This was after a series of terror attacks against civilians in public centers. The division did wipe out terror, and it didn't do this by being gentle with the terrorists. A war on terror is a brutal thing."

Is this a quote from lomplighter, negev, or oh jerusalem?
No! it's a quote from le Pen... the same person who considers the genocide to be a detail in the history of WWII and has special admiration for the Vichy-regime... but shares your hate against the Arabs and considers that the Arabs, in Algeria or in Palestine, are sub-humans that should be colonised.

[takeo]

"The suffering caused by the terrorists is the real torture. The struggle against terrorists sometimes requires secrecy and it has its own rules. The enemy must not be allowed the advantage that permits him to plant bombs when and where he wants. In this struggle, everyone must carry his own burden."

another quote from Le Pen... make your own conclusions...

How i feel about Le Pen?
I think that's a stupid question
the same way that i think about Sharon, a war-criminal and a fascist and a danger for our country.

[Mediocrates]

odd - that. a centrist position from an extremist..

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
thank you for the article, very interesting.

Is this a quote from lomplighter, negev, or oh jerusalem?
No! it's a quote from le Pen... the same person who considers the genocide to be a detail in the history of WWII and has special admiration for the Vichy-regime... but shares your hate against the Arabs and considers that the Arabs, in Algeria or in Palestine, are sub-humans that should be colonised.

I think La Pen has the right idea and I?m happy you?re shaking in your boots. I certainly don?t approve of some of his past statements but he claims to be anti-Semitic at least right now.

It?s a catch 22 type of a situation isn?t it? I certainly believe that it has given the Arabs something to think about. I would rather have someone that doesn?t have a darkened past but if it helps the French Jews so be it.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
Lomplighter i guess we should declare jiang Zemin a terrorist too and bulldozer mainland China... (just a little warning that the PRC will be tougher than the PA)
By the way, Jean-Marie Le Pen has won the presidential elections in France, this guy loves Sharon(well some of his friends have some difficulties loving Jews, even fascist Jews) and hates Arabs so this is good news for Israel. sharon, Bush, berlusconi and Le Pen, it seems extreme right-wing extremists will run the planet for some time.

It?s amazing how a Marxist Leninist posing as a Christian manages to change a thread. I just gave an opinion based on the Taiwanese people I?ve talked to if you?ve talked to others that have different opinions good for you.

[Mediocrates]

please move your right pinky up one row on the keyboard.

[takeo]

wow what do we have here, a declaration of love from lomplighter to Le Pen!
All Arab-haters, right-wing extremists and fascists in the world, unite!
ps: I'm not Christian and I've never met someone from Taiwan

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
wow what do we have here, a declaration of love from lomplighter to Le Pen!
All Arab-haters, right-wing extremists and fascists in the world, unite!
ps: I'm not Christian and I've never met someone from Taiwan

Love you got to be kidding. The danes are allready half way there it's an awakening to the evils of Islamic Fundamendalism.

[takeo]

OK, let's say love in a strictly political sence... (i hope...)
the Danes are half-way of what? of imposing their own le Pen?

[L@mplighterM]

of imposing their own le Pen?

You said it !

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Is this a quote from lomplighter, negev, or oh jerusalem?
No! it's a quote from le Pen... the same person who considers the genocide to be a detail in the history of WWII and has special admiration for the Vichy-regime... but shares your hate against the Arabs and considers that the Arabs, in Algeria or in Palestine, are sub-humans that should be colonised.
Yes, you would like to paint those in this forum who disagree with your POV as being supremicist racists who hate Arabs, but it's really not so.

Where have you seen those members write anything like what you claim?

[takeo]

i have heard them make statements about Arabs that are downright racist, especially some months ago, now lomplighter seems a little bit more diplomatic...
And they made statements as if all Arabs are terrorists (as Le pen states too) and don't deserve to have an own state.

[takeo]

at one occasion lomplighter or negev said that
Arabs are animals... and that they are more savage than Jews

[NewsGuy]

Yep, this is a long post. If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, just scroll to the bottom to see my bottom line, if you care to read it altogether. :)


Regarding the broad support of the French for Le Pen, we are seeing a very interesting phenomenon, from the point of view of an outsider to French society.

As background, I have always been dismayed at the enormous amount of French anti-Semitism, general racism and xenophobia.

Throughout history, this is a country which has brought the world Imperialistic slaughters of perhaps hundreds of thousands of native inhabitants in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, the Caribbeans, Europe, the Americas, and the list goes on.

As you may recall, class discrimination and the corrupt monarchy in France finally culminated in France's social engineering "invention" known as the Guillotine.

France's later social milestones include the Dreyfus trial, the Vichy nazi-collaborator regime and a plethora of anti-Semitic activity till this very day.

In any event, France has ironically been rewarded for its extensive history of colonialism and genocide by the very same native people which were hurt so badly by France,moving into France by the millions and imposing their own political agenda on French society.

Ironically, it can be said at this point, that France has become an Middle Eastern colony itself, with more than 15% of its population now being Arab and plenty more descending from other former French colonies. Unfortunately for France, instead of being enriched by a pluralistic society, it has chosen to take on the very worst aspects of its special interest groups and has adopted a political hypocrisy which undermines what little moral integrity the country has left.

Too bad a country like France, which has also made considerable contributions to humanity and is also home to many fine people, is eclipsed by a morally dubious government.

Jean-Marie Le Pen, the extremist right-wing spokesman for French Xenophobia is a product of a large part of French society resisting a cultural takeover by immigrants, instead of trying to implement the melting-pot or mosaic models employed in the US.

Adding to Le Pen's popularity is the fact that there has been a significant rise in violent crime, which has been attributed by the French police to a criminal surge in immigrant segments of society. Socialist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin who ran against Le Pen, did not put crime at the top of his campaign agenda, and this apparently cost him many votes.

Here are two noteworthy thoughts about Le Pen:

1. Not that Le Pen, a known anti-Semite would really care, but it so happens that part of the rise in crime from French immigrants is the Arab violence against French Jews and Jewish institutions.

2. In his younger days, Le Pen served in the French Foreign Legion, where he was active in a unit focused on eradicating Islamic terrorism in Algeria. Therefore, he shows an understanding of Israel's war on Palestinian terrorism.

These two facts actually bring Le Pen into a positive sphere, from my POV, but these facts also pale in comparison with Le Pen's true anti-Semitic beliefs as a Holocaust denier.

France, and indeed, all of Europe seems to be shocked time and time again when fascist or racist political candidates win broad support. The last European "shock" happened in Austria, which first elected former Nazi SS trooper Kurt Waldheim and more recently elected Jörg Haider to join its government. Now comes Le Pen, showing that Europe is much closer to the way it was just 70 years ago.

Although France and Europe now pretend that they are shocked at Le Pen's election success, it is clearly due to the EU's hypocritical and possibly racist anti-Israel policies, in which the EU (led by France) has shown a strong support for groups like Hizbullah, and countries like Iran. At the same time, European and especially French politicians have made anti-Semitic remarks and have gotten away with it. Not only did these French policies of tolerance of anti-Semitism directly encourage anti-Semitic violence, but they also signalled to the French people that racism is a form of legitimate politics in France.

The results is Jean-Marie Le Pen, the public face of French racism and xenophobia.

Ultimately, I think that Le Pen will lose the run-off against incumbent Jacques Chirac, but I hope that seeing the obvious degree of popular French racism, the French people will reevaluate their openly anti-Semitic and anti-Israel policies.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
at one occasion lomplighter or negev said that
Arabs are animals... and that they are more savage than Jews

I’ll say it again Islamic Fundamentalists are worse than animals I see them as the lowest life form on this planet and that goes for their supporters as well.

All this garbage about 1967 or 1948 borders is just nonsense. Jew killing by Arabs was alive and well before 1948 and their specialty like now were killing unarmed civilians. At one time 79 doctors and nurses from a hospital was gunned down without mercy.

Animals kill for hunger and they kill for the pure pleasure.

Le Pen has his followers and there is many behind him even if he’s not the perfect candidate sometimes you have to sleep with the devil. I hope the day comes when a mosque is leveled if it’s used to purvey hatred against Jews or for that matter anyone else.

Le Pen is just one man and he has always made it clear what he stands for and people let him know that they support him. The west is under no obligation to let phony refugees into a country and as a matter of fact why should the EU let anyone in that’s seen as a threat to peace and stability.

I can just imagine if I wanted to immigrate to a country like S. Arabia how I would be treated why should it be a one-way street?

When they cheer when an explosion kills innocent Jewish civilians or to the events of 9/11 send them back where they came from. Muslim4Israel2 spoke of world conquest by Islam well the fact that Pen was nominated is seen as a bright light by me and sends a message to Islam to watch it.

[takeo]

first: not all Muslims are terrorists or terrorists supporters, most Arabs in France hate Bin laden as much as anyone else, and especially the Afghans living here hate bin laden and his gang.
All this "nonsence" about borders and refugees is the real reason why palestinians (and not other Arabs) fight Israel. Palestinians may be Muslims and Arabs that doesn't give nobody the right to take their land and ther houses (idem for Algeria). Israel took them their land and in many cases as well their home... that can be a legitimate reason for violence, as in Algeria as well against the French. If you don't believe me, give them back what's theirs and you'll see the difference...
during many ages the Jews were treated better by the Arabs than by the Europeans.
about immigration, i agree it has to stop because there are no more jobs and places, but coming from an immigrant family (by the way israel is an immigrant country too) i can say that immigrants have brought contribution to France and to the US as well. All of you are sons or grandsons of immigrants, in that time only the KKK protested at Jewish immigration... So please take a more moderate stance at this subject! Arabs have as well helped the French economy by working in the mines and doing the dirtiest jobs no French liked to do and they contributed to build the modern French society. What's more by engaging in Algeria France has brought the immigration upon itself.
That's why i disagree with you and Le Pen in your anti-Arab histeria, (by using the same arguments as Hitler against the Jews...) Maybe another reason why French Jews are more moderate against the Arabs than in other countries, in France they feel treatened by the same persons who also hate Arabs, they have a common ennemy (but apparently the friends of some extremist Jews...)
Arabs have no intention whatsoever to conquer the world, all they want is (for the Palestinians) their own country in palestine or (for the Algerians) in Algeria. Once Algeria gained independance the "terrorism" stopped. Also Hitler's propaganda tried to justify his anti-semitism by presenting the Jews as a danger for the world trying to obtain world-hegemony.
The war of independance is a cruel war, at both sides, it was cruel in Algeria, it still is cruel, on both sides in Israel/Palestine. You claim 79 nuns have been gunned down at one time, i can claim 100's of innocent people murdered last week by the Israeli army (and of course at many opportunities in the past). Both sides committed war-crimes and have its extremists, but in the end the occupier is responsible for the war and will loose the war.

[takeo]

"Regarding the broad support of the French for Le Pen, we are seeing a very interesting phenomenon, from the point of view of an outsider to French society. "

broad support, OK, too much, but not more than the extremists get in Israel...(you'll see in the second round he will not get more than 20%)

"As background, I have always been dismayed at the enormous amount of French anti-Semitism, general racism and xenophobia. "

LOL, i think the US-society has a lot more of these, we never needed a Martin Luther King to give the Arabs equal rights...
and i didn't see as many mixed marriages in New York than in Paris, where practically ALL marriages are mixed (from dfferent countries). In fact New York is still pretty much divided along etnic lines, as well as most other American cities (not to mention the Mid-West and the South were the spirit of KK is still alife and kicking...) . In France people tend to complain about the Arabs or the Russians or whoever (me too, at some occasions) but in the end if they see a pretty Arab girl, they will marry her, (i know plenty of people who vote for le pen and are married with Arabs... their logic is "ok, THIS are good Arabs, i only want the bad Arabs to go...") , in the US or israel the segregation is a lot deeper (even between Jews of different origin).

"Throughout history, this is a country which has brought the world Imperialistic slaughters of perhaps hundreds of thousands of native inhabitants in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, the Caribbeans, Europe, the Americas, and the list goes on. "

OK, you are right, but that goes as well (and more) for Spain and most of all Great-Brittain. Also the US, Portugal and Holland were colonising powers and abused black slaves and colonies (or semi-colonies, the monroe-doctrine) to become wealthy...

"As you may recall, class discrimination and the corrupt monarchy in France finally culminated in France's social engineering "invention" known as the Guillotine. "

that's right, didn't the American revolutionaries killed some people during their revolution?

"France's later social milestones include the Dreyfus trial, the Vichy nazi-collaborator regime and a plethora of anti-Semitic activity till this very day. "

right, didn't this as well exist in ANY other country in Europe ?(and much worse...) Let me remind you that France was one of the first countries in Europe to give Jews full equal civilian rights (1789) . Even in the US there was anti-semitism at the time of Dreyfuss and much later as well. The vichy-regime was a puppet-regime of the nazi's as there existed in any occupied country, but i agree that any French who cooperates with it is one French too much. I can tell you as well that nowadays i encountered more anti-semitism in the US than in France, especially in the Mid-west.

"In any event, France has ironically been rewarded for its extensive history of colonialism and genocide by the very same native people which were hurt so badly by France,moving into France by the millions and imposing their own political agenda on French society. "

that's right to a certain extend, only difference is that the Arabs are politically under-represented and they are certainly not imposing their political agenda.

"Ironically, it can be said at this point, that France has become an Middle Eastern colony itself, with more than 15% of its population now being Arab and plenty more descending from other former French colonies. Unfortunately for France, instead of being enriched by a pluralistic society, it has chosen to take on the very worst aspects of its special interest groups and has adopted a political hypocrisy which undermines what little moral integrity the country has left. "

blabla
French society is less hypocrit than the us, we don't start trials against presidents because they had a blow-job and our presidents are not talking about "Christian values" blabla while cutting the social funds and spending more on military as in the US...
the Arabs represent 15% of the population and that's still a minority, by the way more and more people are mixed and can't speak arab and forgot about their religion (the second generation finds the disco's more attracting than the Mosques, luckily for me, because they are beautiful :-p )

"Too bad a country like France, which has also made considerable contributions to humanity and is also home to many fine people, is eclipsed by a morally dubious government. "

blabla
the French government is certainly morally dubious (but for other reasons than you think) but i find the US-government MUCH more morally dubious...

"Jean-Marie Le Pen, the extremist right-wing spokesman for French Xenophobia is a product of a large part of French society resisting a cultural takeover by immigrants, instead of trying to implement the melting-pot or mosaic models employed in the US."

Jean-Marie Le Pen, is a hard ennemy of the US-society, in fact he always worries that French cities are becoming as insecure as in the US (exaggerated, i can assure you) ...
in fact France is MORE a melting pot than the US (indeed less a mosaic), the only problems with Arabs is a small minority without jobs in the suburbs who are creating problems but have not the slightest influence on the government-policy (in fact they are abandoned, pretty much as in the black neighbourhoods of big American cities, but less extreme) .

"Adding to Le Pen's popularity is the fact that there has been a significant rise in violent crime, which has been attributed by the French police to a criminal surge in immigrant segments of society. Socialist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin who ran against Le Pen, did not put crime at the top of his campaign agenda, and this apparently cost him many votes. "

YES, finally something that makes some sence...

[takeo]

"1. Not that Le Pen, a known anti-Semite would really care, but it so happens that part of the rise in crime from French immigrants is the Arab violence against French Jews and Jewish institutions. "

Hey, don't touch the friend of Lomplighter!
that's only a very minor part, but yes, it's a part of a general phenomenon.


"2. In his younger days, Le Pen served in the French Foreign Legion, where he was active in a unit focused on eradicating Islamic terrorism in Algeria. Therefore, he shows an understanding of Israel's war on Palestinian terrorism. "

LOL, Le Pen eradicating Islamic terrorism, are you now defending the same French colonialism that you criticised so harshly only 5 minutes ago?
Yes, he shows understanding, because fascists and colonialists understand eachother...

"These two facts actually bring Le Pen into a positive sphere, from my POV, but these facts also pale in comparison with Le Pen's true anti-Semitic beliefs as a Holocaust denier. "

YOU can't understand it, this so-called contradiction, as a supporter of a Jewish fascist, yet i understand that all fascism, Jewish or French, is in fact similar... the only differences are the victims, scape-goats and the country where it is happening...but the ideology, propaganda and methods are the same

"France, and indeed, all of Europe seems to be shocked time and time again when fascist or racist political candidates win broad support. The last European "shock" happened in Austria, which first elected former Nazi SS trooper Kurt Waldheim and more recently elected Jörg Haider to join its government. Now comes Le Pen, showing that Europe is much closer to the way it was just 70 years ago. "

And recently as well the election of Ariel Sharon in Israel, which is almost a European country...
in fact, if you analyse the programm of Jorg Haider or Berlusconi, than you come to the conclusion that it is very similar with that one of the republican party in the US and with Likud in Israel... (against Arabs and foreigners, against labour unions and social insurance, more military spending, more nationalism, "the good against the evil" etc.)

"Although France and Europe now pretend that they are shocked at Le Pen's election success, it is clearly due to the EU's hypocritical and possibly racist anti-Israel policies, in which the EU (led by France) has shown a strong support for groups like Hizbullah, and countries like Iran. At the same time, European and especially French politicians have made anti-Semitic remarks and have gotten away with it. Not only did these French policies of tolerance of anti-Semitism directly encourage anti-Semitic violence, but they also signalled to the French people that racism is a form of legitimate politics in France. "

Which French politicians (excluding lomplighter's friend) made anti-semitic remarks??? I am interested...

"The results is Jean-Marie Le Pen, the public face of French racism and xenophobia. "

Well, i guess lomplighter likes that face of France...

"Ultimately, I think that Le Pen will lose the run-off against incumbent Jacques Chirac, but I hope that seeing the obvious degree of popular French racism, the French people will reevaluate their openly anti-Semitic and anti-Israel policies."

Actually the Jews in France are not an issue, as both the big majority of the Jews and the other French don't see a problem here (except some violence as a consequence of the middle eastern war). Jews are viewed as normal citizens of France, and French people in fact come from all over the world, most people consider Jews not as Jews but as French, and most jews consider themselves as well as French on the first place. They are more integrated than the more recent arrivals from Arab countries, but even these are mostly considered French, for sure the second generation. People have other problems and concerns than israel and etnicity, israel is just a country that is conducting an occupation policy and abusing human rights, but it is not the only country in the world doing that( the Algerian government blamed by the government for abusing human rights)
, the French in general are more concerned about safety-issues(that's why le pen got so many votes), jobs and things like that, pretty much as most Americans.

i think, before you post any further about France, you should first come to visit us, drink some wine, relax, and talk to people (if they will be able to understand you...) and you'll see that racism, let alone anti-semitism, is a lot less an issue than in the States. in every pub in France you can see at least 5 different origins, and in my neighbourhood Jews(mostly sephardim) and Arabs go to the same pubs and shops and are friends...(mostly...)

[L@mplighterM]

I didn?t vote for Le Pen I merely gave an opinion based on facts. If you don?t like the facts change them. Again you want to shoot the messenger. This guy apparently had the same message since 1988 and this time people bought it.

There was one question that I wanted to ask you takeo. Do you condone or philosophically support any forms of terrorism? It seems like you justify it.

I would give my support to anyone that wants to stop Islamic Fundamentalism although there would be restrictions on my vote.

[Mediocrates]

I would like a native's opinion of this. We in the US have our own David Dukes and Pat Buchanans and we pretty much agree that they are racist antisemitic neo nazis. Even their backers do - they simply dare you to have a reaction to that and hide (a little bit behind false respecitability and the inevitiable 'can you prove that?? sound byte..) At any rate what do the French say about this. Do Le Pen's backers simply have no comment to claims about what he is? Do they refuse to respond to questions and simply regurgitrate loud rhetoric? Do the voters just focus on 1 or 2 points? I'm reminded of our own St. Rudy Giuliani ex mayor New York who even if he were able to run for a third term probably wouldn't have gained more than 40-45% of the vote because he had aliented and angered so much of the non white population of NY. Even his backers had a bit of "Yeah he's a bastard but he hates who we hate so it's ok !!" I'm wondering if this is what you're seeing with Le Pen? Is the electorate stupidly hoping he'll kick out all the foreigners and then become a nice socialist? Who is his power base?

[L@mplighterM]

If Le Pen could erase his past I would support him 100%. After a bit of research I reluctantly agree that his past is too tarnished. The further that I dig the dirtier he gets.
So whilst I fully support his current stand I can’t support the man.

[takeo]

Lomplighter, this must be very confusing for you because this man is like the missing link between israeli fascism and European fascism. I am against both, and it's really not so difficult to see the similarities, at least if you want to see them. Your confusion prooves my point. You'll only support him, in your blind anger against Arabs and muslims, if he's anti-arab and want to expulse all Arabs, but than you discover that the man in fact hates all "foreigners", including Jews...

I'm a "native", and i can say that people vote for Le Pen for pretty much the same reason as people vote for buchanan or Giuliani. they hate crime, and crime is mostly committed by Arabs (as by negro's or latino's in the US), so they vote the only person who is openly anti-arab (what doesn't mean, in France at least, that they really hate foreigners, many of them are married to Arabs, they just hate the Arabs who make trouble and don't think any further, they suppose it's just a protest-vote and he'll never get elected) . Some people also vote for Le Pen because they hate a multi-cultural "americanised" society and think that "France should be for the French" and we all should eat paté and drink wine and no foreign influences(they also hate McDonalds)... (pretty much as Buchanan i guess), they are isolationists...

Lomplighter i support struggle against an occupation army (and the politicians ordering the army) when negotiations or elections are not possible(in a state of occupation or in a dictatorship, and never directed towards innocent civilians). Under this conditions, yes, i do support "terrorism", under other conditions, NO.

[takeo]

I guess you too would have supported the resistance against the occupying German army?
so in that case you too are a supporter of terrorism.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
Lomplighter, this must be very confusing for you because this man is like the missing link between israeli fascism and European fascism. I am against both, and it's really not so difficult to see the similarities, at least if you want to see them. Your confusion prooves my point. You'll only support him, in your blind anger against Arabs and muslims, if he's anti-arab and want to expulse all Arabs, but than you discover that the man in fact hates all "foreigners", including Jews...

I'm a "native", and i can say that people vote for Le Pen for pretty much the same reason as people vote for buchanan or Giuliani. they hate crime, and crime is mostly committed by Arabs (as by negro's or latino's in the US), so they vote the only person who is openly anti-arab (what doesn't mean, in France at least, that they really hate foreigners, many of them are married to Arabs, they just hate the Arabs who make trouble and don't think any further, they suppose it's just a protest-vote and he'll never get elected) . Some people also vote for Le Pen because they hate a multi-cultural "americanised" society and think that "France should be for the French" and we all should eat paté and drink wine and no foreign influences(they also hate McDonalds)... (pretty much as Buchanan i guess), they are isolationists...

Lomplighter i support struggle against an occupation army (and the politicians ordering the army) when negotiations or elections are not possible(in a state of occupation or in a dictatorship, and never directed towards innocent civilians). Under this conditions, yes, i do support "terrorism", under other conditions, NO.

The vehicles were used as barricades. I supposed you'd have enough guts to hotwire the cars and move them or would you call a tow truck.

If in fact anyone was shot in the back it was done by the Palestinians and that's exactly what they did to the little boy a few years ago, oldest trick in the book.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and when I said that I supported the man it was based on exactly that (a lack of knowledge).

You have just admitted that you support terrorism even if it means the death of every Jew in the Middle East. Well I'm not going to hunt you down but I can honestly say that I hope the law will one day. Any individual that supports the murder of innocent individuals deserves incarceration.

As far as I'm concerned you should be tried in a court of law, found guilty by your own words and then given the maximum punishment for your crime. You are an evil individual equal to the Arafat's, Hitler's and the likes in this world.

[takeo]

LOL
i have to borrow you some glasses...(than maybe you will be able to find the burka's in the Qoran too by the way...)
didn't i say... innocent civilians excluded............
do you think resistance fighters against the nazi are criminals and terrorists too and should be tried?
i will bring you for justice (at least the French) for referring to Arabs as "animals" and for inciting to crimes against humanity....

[L@mplighterM]

Lomplighter i support struggle against an occupation army (and the politicians ordering the army) when negotiations or elections are not possible(in a state of occupation or in a dictatorship, and never directed towards innocent civilians). Under this conditions, yes, i do support "terrorism", under other conditions, NO.

There’s your statement I think you are the one that needs glasses.

i will bring you for justice (at least the French) for referring to Arabs as "animals" and for inciting to crimes against humanity....

I'll say it again Islamic Fundamentalists and their supporters are

ANIMALS! If you require definition of Islamic Fundamentalism search the web or ask Bush.


If I ever used the word ‘ALL’ I never meant each and every one.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
I guess you too would have supported the resistance against the occupying German army?
so in that case you too are a supporter of terrorism.
I figure that I might as well respond to this unbelievable comparison, only because I have seen it used widely to try to fool uninformed and gullible people.

To be clear, the only valid comparison with the Nazis is the Arab and Islamic Jihad-genocide of the Jewish people.

Holocaust deniers and various anti-Semites love to pretend as if the Nazis never marched 6 million Jews into the gas chambers and ovens while those Jews never did anything wrong.

Fast-forward to today, where the Arabs are conducting a massacre of the Jewish people in Israel by exploding weapons-grade bombs, filled with iron nails and shrapnel to murder and maim as many Jews as possible in buses, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.

Somehow these despicable anti-Semites (and some self-hating Jews, too) have tried to compare between the Jewish freedom fighters of the ghettos and the Islamic Jihad mass murderers.

You should know that the comparison is one that is purely out of hatred and an attempt to fool the foolish.

To call the Arabs "freedom fighters" is outrageous, considering that their freedom has already been granted a decade ago as a result of peace negotiations, another fact which shows how stupid and evil it is to compare this situation with Nazi attrocities.

[McSceptic]

I don't think that was Takeo's point. Terrorism is just a method, not a philosophy. It's been employed by just about everyone, including Jewish people, as well as Christians, Muslims etc.

Would a Minuteman sniping at a soldier not be considered a terrorist nowadays?

And actually, Le Pen's vote was only up by about 2%. It was the fragmentation of the leftists that let him through. Three flavours of Trotskyists? Seems three too many to me.

[Mediocrates]

I heard this morning on the BBC that Le Pen could get as much as 35% of the vote next week. I think we're past the point of talking about those 'other people' in France who back him. 35% is almost a mandate and clearly he represents probably closer to 45%+ in general tenor and belief.

Let's not forget that our own Maximum Primate here in the US o'A only got about 48% of the votes cast.

Seriously, if a Pat Buchanan or a David Dukes could get 45% in the US, I'd have to leave the country.

[McSceptic]

It says in this Haaretz article that Le Pen's tie and the handkerchief in his breast pocket match. They shouldn't match, they should complement one another.

The man is obviously no good.

[takeo]

"Fast-forward to today, where the Arabs are conducting a massacre of the Jewish people in Israel by exploding weapons-grade bombs, filled with iron nails and shrapnel to murder and maim as many Jews as possible in buses, restaurants, shopping malls, etc. "

sure this is a massacre, but i clearly said that i DIDN'T support such actions against innocent civilians!

"Somehow these despicable anti-Semites (and some self-hating Jews, too) have tried to compare between the Jewish freedom fighters of the ghettos and the Islamic Jihad mass murderers.
You should know that the comparison is one that is purely out of hatred and an attempt to fool the foolish. "

Why? Palestinians are occupied and living in ghetto's, just as the Jews in WWII. The jews in the ghetto's also used violence... and were described by the nazi's as terrorists.

"To call the Arabs "freedom fighters" is outrageous, considering that their freedom has already been granted a decade ago as a result of peace negotiations, another fact which shows how stupid and evil it is to compare this situation with Nazi attrocities."

Oslo was only the first step to liberation, it was far from a total liberation of the occupied territories, and it was almost stopped by your favorite Netanyahu.
I didn't say that the nazi crimes are comparable to israeli crimes, of course not, i am only saying that also the people oppressed and occupied in WWII used the same methods for liberation as the Palestinians now.

[takeo]

well, if lomplighter would be French, that would be one vote more for Le Pen...
clearly i don't like the fact that so many people vote for such an ass-hole. But people are sometimes stupid and think that their security will be garanteed by the one shouting the hardest or treatening to use the hardest methods. Pretty much as in Israel too...
anyway Le Pen has never won more than 17% of the votes. The fact that he is second is because the left didn't present a single candidate as mcsceptic indicated. They had more than 5 candidates representing more than 50% of the votes...
most of these leftist voters hate Chirac and Le Pen so much that they would prefere to stay home (so the supporters of Le Pen will all come to vote and will have more weight)

[L@mplighterM]

Origionally posted by takeo:

well, if lomplighter would be French, that would be one vote more for Le Pen...

Origionally posted by L@mplighter:

If Le Pen could erase his past I would support him 100%. After a bit of research I reluctantly agree that his past is too tarnished. The further that I dig the dirtier he gets.
So whilst I fully support his current stand I can’t support the man .

Does that sound like I would vote for Pen? No wonder you get everything screwed up. I guess that’s how some Arabs read the Geneva Convention, UN Resolutions, Oslo I Accord, Oslo II Accord, Mitchell Accord, Tenet Plan. They get it all backwards.

Why don’t you take a trip to Cuba and sneak online and have a gander at all the posts on Arab time? *LOL*


Come clean and tell everyone how much you get paid to post all your Islamic Fundamentalist propaganda.

[takeo]

don't talk about Cuba please... I am still depressed that i had to return...
OK, i will be honest i get paid 50000 Dinar every week to fill the israel forum with terrorist propaganda and apologist stuff ... i get my pay-checks from Bagdad since the caves in Afghanistan don't have bank-accounts.
However those iraqi Dinars are pretty worthless.
Of course i am readily available to spread zionist propaganda if only i could get some additional credits and they could pay me in real US$...(that shouldn't be a problem)
Paris is expensive you know...

[Mediocrates]

"sure this is a massacre, but i clearly said that i DIDN'T support such actions against innocent civilians"


No one . NO ONE NO ONE believes you when you write this. Don't waste your time typing it.

[takeo]

well, for you it might be a problem to see the difference between using violence against an occupation army or against civilians, for me that's a major difference so i will continue to make that important difference.

[L@mplighterM]

Posted for information only:


Here’s what Le Pen is all about. He’s against immigration. France has about five million Muslims, with more and more arriving daily. They arrive dead poor but well versed in Islamic law. They get houses and welfare benefits but do nothing. Their numerous children turn to drugs and crime, and their "quartiers" are almost no-go areas to non-Arabs, including the police. Le Pen’s most ardent followers are poor, white, hardworking French men and women who cannot afford expensive houses on the Avenue Foch, or to send their children to elite schools. The elite parasites that govern France, Belgium, Britain and Germany do not give a damn about poor and middle-class people, and manage to demonize those who raise their voice in protest by calling them racist. It’s the same policy our newest Noo Yawk daily, The Sharon, has about Israel. If you are against the tanks killing civilians, and the illegal settlements, you are one and the same with Eichmann.

Just look at the way normal French people are scared to give their names to the media and admit they voted for Le Pen. In Brussels, the capital of the world where child molestation, buggery and coverups are concerned, Le Pen was heckled by his fellow Euro MPs. Just think of it. It’s as if in the House of Representatives a congressman is physically blocked by other congressmen wearing "Stop the Nazis" stickers. The one I liked the best was the student who avoided the cameras because "at my university, the professors can be very, very angry if they knew I supported Le Pen." Again, some democracy.


http://www.nypress.com/15/18/taki/lemaitre.cfm

[takeo]

your last post is very interesting... I would like to see the opinion of for example newsguy on this one...
So Le pen is not about calling pétain a French hero and not about calling the genocide a detail in history... you who said that "abu Chirac" is an anti-semite and a representation of the French anti-semitic past (or was it newsguy?) ... if you could ever cite me some of the same words out of the mouth of Chirac i would immidiately agree with you...
actually le Pen is the only political party linked to anti-semitism (even if Le Pen is so smart not to openly emphasise it because it could cost him a lot of votes, people in France don't like anti-semites) and the Vichy-regime, and THIS party is your favorite!!!!
Yes people are afraid to say that they voted Le Pen, because fascism in France is not accepted by the society.
You are right about the people who voted for le Pen, but they are stupid, Le Pen doesn't care about common people, nor does his friends in Austria, Italy or Denmark. And by the way the governments in europe may not do enough for common people (if they are white or not, that doesn't interest me) but they are doing a lot more than the Bush-administration is doing for the poor and common people(= taking even the last bits of social security for people who can't afford it and give it to the military industry or even more tax-cuts for his wealthy friends) ! you can see the difference walking in poor neighbourhoods of American cities...
Many people vote for le Pen primarily because of the insecurity that increased or because they don't like foreigners(Muslims, niggers, Jews, or whatever )

[takeo]

it's frightening to see the electoral succes of the ultra-righ-wing and fascism in the US, Denmark, Austria, Italy, France, ISRAEL...

[L@mplighterM]

Bold quote from takeo:

So Le pen is not about calling pétain a French hero and not about calling the genocide a detail in history... you who said that "abu Chirac" is an anti-semite and a representation of the French anti-semitic past (or was it newsguy?) ... if

People should not be judged by words alone. Chirac’s Government has been way to complacent in dealing with the violence directed against Jews.

Inactions speaks louder than words in my opinion excuse me if I’ve missed a news story where the French President has STRONGLY condemned Islamic Fundamentalists or passed a law that would deport them.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
it's frightening to see the electoral succes of the ultra-righ-wing and fascism in the US, Denmark, Austria, Italy, France, ISRAEL...

don't know about some of the countries but I'm not frightened.
Fundamentalists should be scared and I hope you all get deported one day. Every G_d dammed one of you.

Cut the facist garbage.

[takeo]

The president has condamned the anti-semitic actions, and he has certainly never token any anti-semitic decision. even if i don't support him, this i know for sure.
France has cooperated in the war against terrorism, and all fundamentalists who engage in terror against civilians have a bad time in France and, once caught, get imprisoned for life-sentences.
Fascism scares me more than fundamentalism, at least in France or Europe.

[Mediocrates]

What ultra right wing victories in the US? I must have missed the memo.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
The president has condamned the anti-semitic actions, and he has certainly never token any anti-semitic decision. even if i don't support him, this i know for sure.
France has cooperated in the war against terrorism, and all fundamentalists who engage in terror against civilians have a bad time in France and, once caught, get imprisoned for life-sentences.
Fascism scares me more than fundamentalism, at least in France or Europe.

Anyone can condemn anything cant they? Are you know telling me that he’s made a major speech condemning anti Semitism in France?

As far as your fascist BS goes I’m not certain you understand what the word means. In previous posts you complain about Israel being a fascist country but even though you claim to be scared of fascism you have no hesitation traveling to there.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
your last post is very interesting... I would like to see the opinion of for example newsguy on this one...
Well, there are two issues here, LePen being portrayed as a harmless politician who merely opposes immigration to France on the basis of economic and social contribution, and the other issue is the author of the NYPress article, Taki Theodoracopulos as a credible source.

As for the first, yes, it is true that Le Pen opposes immigration and that is a valid political point of view, provided that it is handled through democratic legislation. If France wants to cut its welfare and other social benefits to immigrants, then the French people are of course entitled to vote on it and do as they please. There is no universal requirement to pay X amount of welfare benefits per month.

But Le Pen is about much more than adjusting social benefits in France. He regards the Holocaust as a mere "detail of history," and many other of his views are outright racist. I don't know if he is a fascist exactly, but he is a racist certainly.

Again, some of his views are fine, IMO, but in the totality of his actions and words, he is a dangerous racist and not fit to be in a position of power even in France.

At the same time, I am not surprised that 20% of the French people share his racist views. I hope that France is able to look itself in the mirror and admit what they see staring back at them.

What they will see is not the gentile, civilized image they so love to project, but instead, the face of legitimized official racism instituted by French president Abu Chirac.

I have no doubt that the widespread support for Le Pen, to a great extent, comes as a direct result of official French acceptance of anti-Semitism and indifference to the Jewish victims of Arab massacres, which is expressed by French politicians and evident in France's corrupt and hypocritical foreign policy.

[NewsGuy]

oh, yeah, the second point was the author of the article, Herr Taki Theodoracopulos.

Here is what Conrad Black, publisher of The Spectator said about Taki Theodoracopulos, to better understand who we are dealing with:

"In both its venomous character and its unfathomable absurdity, this farrago of lies is almost worthy of Goebbels or the authors of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The Jews, according to Taki, have suborned the US government, direct that country's military like a docile attack dog, and glory in the murder of innocent or mischievous children. He presents the universal Jewish ethos as brutish, vulgar, grasping and cunningly wicked."

Full Article (http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0018.htm).

[takeo]

what ultra-right-wing victory in the US???
I consider the policy of bush, and certainly of some of his administration members, as ultra-right-wing. I am talking about Ashcroft in the first place. The policy of baby Bush is more right-wing than the already very rightw-ing policy of his father and even Reagan, so i consider it ultra-righting, so do most Europeans. (by the way his policy and views are shared by what is called ultra-rightwing in Europe, for example le Pen calling to double the military budget, cut all social spending, etc. )

Chirac has condamned anti-semitism on various occations, and the government did a lot to stop those vandalism against Jewish symbols (the only anti-semitism noticeable in France).

Newsguy, so according to you the support for le Pen is a sign that French people support anti-semitism, according to lomplighter it's a sign that they are tired of anti-semitism, make up your mind please if you want to make bold statements!!!

I am a little surprised you take Le Pen so hard, after all he's also all for torture of Arabs, send Arabs back were they come from, exclude them from the social services, and more of that kind of language.
That's what i call fascism, the only difference between israeli (or jewish) fascism and French fascism is that they will differ on WWII, as European fascism is against all foreigners excluding Europeans, while Israeli fascism is against all foreigners excluding Jews...
Indeed you don't ignore that he has an anti-semitic past and that his party still loves the Vichy-regime, which lomplighter and most of his voters ignore or don't know.
i won't comment any further about your statements that France is anti-semitic because they are not supporting sharon, we have all discussed it before and you couldn't defend your argument, even many other pro-israeli people on this site said that anti-israeli (but even this is exaggerated, France is not anti-israeli, only against the occupation and current israeli policy) doesn't necessarily mean anti-semitic.
i have been to the US and Israel and can assure you that France is a lot less racist than the US, much more positive contacts between different races here and intemarriage.
also the French policy might be hypocretical, it is nothing compared to the US-policy which makes hypocresy an art...

[takeo]

The fact that almost one million people demonstrated (all of them neo-stalinists according to you) against Le Pen is another proove of France's intrinsic anti-semitic, racist and fascist nature, isn't it, newsguy???

[Mediocrates]

Nah you don't know American politics. Buchanan is our Le Pen. Or maybe David Dukes but the BushCo Bunkerment, Inc. struggles to APPEASE the far right while remaining simply confused and chasing its own tail. Sure our A.G. is a wingnut who annoints himself and makes his staff sing hymns and they want to basically tear up the Constitution and erase civil liberties. But trust me, in America that's practically middle of the road.

[Mediocrates]

Yes we all travel to foreign countries too - they let us hillbillies on planes now !! At any rate I have been to your new home too and don't find any difference in the general tenor of race relations. People say the same things in their own living rooms. We have rednecks, you have the Belgians, and so on.

[L@mplighterM]

Bold posted by takeo:

Chirac has condamned anti-semitism on various occations, and the government did a lot to stop those vandalism against Jewish symbols (the only anti-semitism noticeable in France).


Wear a big bright Star of David on your clothes, walk around your Arab neighborhood and then come back and type with your tongue and let me know how you made out.

[Mediocrates]

Here's one spin from John O'Sulivan of the National Review

http://www.nationalreview.com/jos/jos050302.asp

[thrud]

Originally posted by takeo
The policy of baby Bush is more right-wing than the already very rightw-ing policy of his father and even Reagan, so i consider it ultra-righting, so do most Europeans.
Back in Provo, UT (my hometown) Bush and his father are seen as a bit liberal, but they were supported as the lesser of two evils.

An example: in Utah, arms control means how well you hold up your rifle during the deer hunt.

If you think George W. or his father are right wingers like Le Pen, then you really have not paid much attention to US politics. Le Pen is a Social Democrat (a facist). Facists like socialism or extreme centralized governments. The US (especially the Bushes and other Republicans) dislikes centralized government for the most part which is why the Pres was not able to block the pro-Israel congressional statement. The American people are so pro-Israel right now that it is willing to ignore the wishes of the popular sitting President to declare its support for an embattled people.

I consider anyone who supports socialism and socialist programs as members of the left.

Originally posted by takeo
Hitler's... etnic cleansing was effective, but also zionism was effective of depriving europe of much of its Jewish population.

That is what Europe is so happy about. They really did not mind the eradication of the Jews. It freed up a lot of capital, real estate, and cultural icons. Europe was happy to be rid of the Jews and so supported Zionism as a short term solution to the Jewish problem. The problem Europe has now is that Israel is a mediterainian competitor and was making economic inroads and so now they need a second solution and pushing the creation of the Palestinian Authority, who as a security risk would be a drain on the Israeli economy and would help deflect further competition.

Europe wanted Hitler out because he was taking all the power for themselves, but they were not so interested in saving the Jews. If they had been, erhaps they they would have tried harder to destroy the consentration camps.

There is no way to trust the left in Europe. It is racist and socialist.

Originally posted by takeo
the position of gore-Liebermann would here be described as conservative

If you think they were conservative, that puts you as far to the left as the communists and facists. Considering your hatred of Israel and personal self hate, I can see why you identify so closely with the Palestinians and their Marxist/Islamic ideaologies.

[takeo]

the cultural gap between Europe and the US is even bigger than i tought. most Western Europeans like moderation, negociation, social care, and small social and racial differences and don't like guns, mixed economy, social and racial ghetto's etc. (the ones questioning this post-war European values have just received a terrible blow in france)
If you call that socialism that's fine for me, but even the rightwing and the chistian parties in Europe are behind most of these values. It worked out better than in the states, we don't have neighbourhoods as the bronx, and people are a lot more sane than in the states (one could also say: European politics is more boring) . We don't like to put as many people in prisons as possible and in Europe you can walk in any big city without fearing for your life... of course it's your own choice, if you like a violent and socially and racially split society that's your choice... (i know a story of two cubans who went to the states because they could have much higher salaries but one was black, one was blank, in Cuba they were friends but in the US the one now lives in a black ghetto, the other in a nice purely white neighbourhood)
So that's definately different from here, where most people live mixed, with some exceptions of predominantly arab neighbourhoods (yet there are Arabs in all neighbourhoods in France, and in Arab neighbourhoods there are living a lot of "French" people too).

maybe bush isn't ultra-right-wing to your values, to our values he certainly is, however many americans think that Ashcroft is ultra-right-wing too, as mediocrates, and he is in the government, isn't he?
what do you mean: "in America that's practically middle of the road." ?

To your values truth everyone not agreeing to nuke Korea or Iraq or not agreeing to cut all social spending is probably a socialist. However you know nothing about politics, but your post was usefull to understand how Bush could be elected...

I know it's confusing but actually the fact that hitler used national-socialism doesn't mean he's a socialist...

"Le Pen is a Social Democrat (a facist). Facists like socialism or extreme centralized governments"

le pen is certainly not a social democrat, do some research please (but not in the Christain library of Provo...) social-democrats want free market, deregularisation, but also they want social healthcare for all people and think that employyes have rights too. (all things le pen doesn't want, except free market). if you call that an extreme centralised government, that's your problem, i prefere this over the American system were people can loose their job and their house on any day without any compensation and without any reason and where poor people can't send their children to good schools or universities. (what means that generations stay uneducated).
By the way we in france have more rights than in your country, the government is not taking our civil rights away, we can drink a beer or wine before the age of 21, the government thinks that values is something each should decide for himself, not a task of the government (as long as you don't hurt the rights of other people), and you don't get jailed for burning the French flag.


"Wear a big bright Star of David on your clothes, walk around your Arab neighborhood and then come back and type with your tongue and let me know how you made out."

orthodox people live in my neighbourhood and never had any problem so far. I think you would have made a lot worse by walking trough New york with a t-shirt of osama Bin laden...

[L@mplighterM]

Bold posted by takeo:

orthodox people live in my neighbourhood and never had any problem so far. I think you would have made a lot worse by walking trough New york with a t-shirt of osama Bin laden...


Who would you believe a poster that may or may not be a Muslim or the overwhelming evidence? In the end it doesn’t make any difference to me what you post takeo.

I prefer to rely on my sources not fabricated nonsense.

I think in GAY Paris you could walk around with a T Shirt of Bin Laden. What’s your point with Laden?

[takeo]

"That is what Europe is so happy about. They really did not mind the eradication of the Jews."

**** you, you don't know what you are talking about, they did really care, many people offered their life to safe Jews, even in supposed to be anti-semitic Russia.

"Europe was happy to be rid of the Jews and so supported Zionism as a short term solution to the Jewish problem."

Maybe that's true for anti-semitic countries as Poland but not for Western Europe or Russia, because jews were an important and active part of the population.

" The problem Europe has now is that Israel is a mediterainian competitor and was making economic inroads and so now they need a second solution and pushing the creation of the Palestinian Authority, who as a security risk would be a drain on the Israeli economy and would help deflect further competition. "

BS. A sronger israel means a stronger trade-partner and instability in the southern borders can never be good for Europe, that's why Europe hates so much the war-like position of sharon.

"Europe wanted Hitler out because he was taking all the power for themselves, but they were not so interested in saving the Jews. If they had been, erhaps they they would have tried harder to destroy the consentration camps. "

BS either, who could destroy the concentration-camps? only an organised army could as the Red Army or the allies could, resistance fighters couldn't.

"There is no way to trust the left in Europe. It is racist and socialist. "

blabla, as i said the us is a lot more racist than Europe and the rightwing in Europe is more racist than the left-wing.



"If you think they were conservative, that puts you as far to the left as the communists and facists. Considering your hatred of Israel and personal self hate, I can see why you identify so closely with the Palestinians and their Marxist/Islamic ideaologies."

You don't know nothing about Europe, if not you would know that there is an enormous difference between social-democrats and communists within Europe, the first are for total free-market with some social corrections, while communists think the free market can not controll the economy. Clinton didn't favored any social corrections, instead under clinton the social gap became even wider and he was in favor of total free market without social corrections, so he is indeed a conservative. Or do you consider anyone who is for arms-controll a socialist???
Fascists are fully for the free market and as the ultra-right in the states they think they can controll people on ethical values, are very nationalistic, think their country is heaven on earth and can overrun and controll other countries, they also think that people who are poor or from another race or religion or don't share their ethical values don't deserve to be helped (or even to live in the country), pretty much as the american (ultra) right-wing.

[takeo]

that you are searching trouble by waving with israeli flags in Arab neighbourhoods, as you are searching trouble by walking with a bin laden t-shirt in New York.

again, lomplighter, i present evidence when you ask so, you never present any evidence to support your WAKO- arguments.
Paris is not any more gay than New york, fortunately...
in most parts of France you can wave israeli flags or walk with a bin-laden t-shirt, who cares if you are nuts???

[L@mplighterM]

Evidence *LOL* all I’ve seen is fragments cut and pasted from the whole to hide the facts.

All I’ve seen so far are manufactured floozies that support your Islamic Fundamentalist propaganda in your posts. I present only facts based on observation and basic elementary human logic.

I think Arafat should have a refund on whatever you’ve collected on your contract so far. All you’ve accomplished so far is to show that some (most if you count the supporters) Palestinians can be murderous thugs.

[takeo]

"All I’ve seen so far are manufactured floozies that support your Islamic Fundamentalist propaganda in your posts. . "

LOL, you say that the plo doesn't recognise the right of israel to exist, i show you the official plo-website to show you the contrary, i showed you links to UN-resolutions, AI and HRW, all this is fundamentalist propaganda and manifactured?
Maybe in your mind yes

"I present only facts based on observation and basic elementary human logic" :p
you're really funny!!!

[L@mplighterM]

Bold posted by takeo:

LOL, you say that the plo doesn't recognise the right of israel to exist, i show you the official plo-website to show you the contrary, i showed you links to UN-resolutions, AI and HRW, all this is fundamentalist propaganda and manifactured?


I can put up a web site that shows flying pigs.

You’ve given me no links to UN Resolutions on the contrary I’ve provided those links and you refuse to read them entirely. All you do is paste little snippets now and then to support nonsense.

[Mediocrates]

Treif? Flying brisket is better.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Treif? Flying brisket is better.

Actually Arafat flying would be the best!

[takeo]

LOL

voilà
http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

a farm of of flying pigs...

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
LOL

voilà
http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

a farm of of flying pigs...

Actually here's an informative site makes more sense than your snipits.

http://camtech2000.net/Pages/FlyingPigs.html

[takeo]

:cool:

sure, whatever you say...

[Mediocrates]

They eat a lot of pork in France, no? Here too in North Carolina. The only time it flies though is during a hurricane.

[Mediocrates]

Did you wear the obligatory clothespins on your noses? Eh? Whither now, France?

[NewsGuy]

Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread, the French presidential elections are now over and "only" 1 out of every 5 Frenchmen voted to throw all immigrants into concentration camps and then deport them.

I hope that France will now take this opportunity to step into the 21st century in terms of its economy, its culture and its foreign policy.

Here are my predictions:

1. Le Pen's party will do very well in the upcoming local elections, thereby helping to unofficially divide France into separate Arab-occupied cantons and French cantons.

2. French President Abu Chirac will now benefit from even more Arab money, which will cause him to continue to function as the European political arm of Islamic terrorism.

3. Abu Chirac will not have the backbone or integrity to deal with the Arab crime problem, even though the French voters say that they are apparently fed up with being slammed with Arab violent crime and then also being required to pay out tons of Francs in welfare payments to those very same people. (This is the French domestic position used as the public explanation for Le Pen's popularity).

4. France will continue to lecture the world, and Israel in particular, about how to run their foreign policy and social issues.

[L@mplighterM]

That’s if Le Pen is still alive. Pim Fortuyn a Dutch right-wing politician was just shot dead in one way I hope that if a Muslim did it Europe will realize that if they continue with their current immigration policies it’ll spell serious trouble for Europe.

One day Islamic Fundamentalist will control the nuclear arsenal of the EU if the current influx of Arabs continues. That’ll bring serious trouble to Israel and North America.

[takeo]

I didn't vote... the offered choice of products was not very attractive, to say at least...

"Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread, the French presidential elections are now over and "only" 1 out of every 5 Frenchmen voted to throw all immigrants into concentration camps and then deport them. "

Even if i dislike Le Pen, tremendously, i don't think he would ever go as far as that, the first wrong decisions he would make and the French revolution would have its remake...
by the way it was only 1 out of every 6 French. He accused his opponents of "soviet-style propaganda" to prevent his election...

"I hope that France will now take this opportunity to step into the 21st century in terms of its economy, its culture and its foreign policy. "

The economy is doing better than the States, that was never the issue in this elections, and the foreign policy neither.



"1. Le Pen's party will do very well in the upcoming local elections, thereby helping to unofficially divide France into separate Arab-occupied cantons and French cantons. "

With less than 20 % of the votes he will never succeed.


"2. French President Abu Chirac will now benefit from even more Arab money, which will cause him to continue to function as the European political arm of Islamic terrorism. "

blabla, even if i dislike Chirac because he's a conservative, he is not at all the favorite of the Arabs in France.

"3. Abu Chirac will not have the backbone or integrity to deal with the Arab crime problem, even though the French voters say that they are apparently fed up with being slammed with Arab violent crime and then also being required to pay out tons of Francs in welfare payments to those very same people. (This is the French domestic position used as the public explanation for Le Pen's popularity). "

chirac has promised to do something about the crime problem, which is in fact still way lower than in the States. And make up your mind, did the french vote for le Pen because he is an anti-semitic fascist or because they don't like Arabs??? What you and lomplighter want is to give the Arabs thec same inferiour treatment as in israel
And your prediction that France is a fascist country has to be revised now, 1 out of every 6 french is less than people in israel who voted for really extremist parties...



"4. France will continue to lecture the world, and Israel in particular, about how to run their foreign policy and social issues."

France has its own view as well as the united states, or can only Israel and the us have the right to lecture the world???

Pim Fortuyn was a populist, not a fascist as Le Pen, he was never in favor of racist measures you and Le Pen favour against immigrants.

[takeo]

ps; do you eat pig?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
ps; do you eat pig?

I only ride them to work.

[takeo]

can they fly too when you are standing in the queue?

[Evolution]

I think the French ppl showed how anti facism they are with a record 82% for Chirac.

This whole notion of anti-Israel=anti semitic must stop-its pathetic. One can criticize the policies of a state and still like its people.

I for instance support Israel's operation defensive shield but will never support the est of new settlements on the areas designated as Palestine.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Evolution
This whole notion of anti-Israel=anti semitic must stop-its pathetic. One can criticize the policies of a state and still like its people.
Theoretically, that's true, but in practice, when it comes to the Arab Republic of France, or other biased EU countries, they are simply anti-Semitic. Here's why:

1. Europeans like to say that it's just that Europeans opposed the policies of Sharon, but as we know, EU countries have voted against Israel during the tenure of ALL past Israeli governments, including Sharon, Netanyahu, Peres, Rabin, Shamir, Begin, etc., even though these governments had different policies. So, it has become obvious that European countries have been anti-Israel for decades and not just anti any particular Israeli government policy.

2. At the same time, the Europeans supported dozens of biased UN resolutions that condemned Israel, but NEVER condemned the Palestinians or other Arabs and Islamic states for their roles terrorism againt Israel and massacre of innocent Israeli citizens.

3. In European society, anti-Semitism has become acceptable to a large degree, while all other forms of racism are frowed upon. I believe this is largely due to the European governments' political anti-Semitism against Israel, as well as the huge amount of anti-Semitism among the Muslim population of Europe.

You in the UK should know exactly what I mean.

[takeo]

blabla

Europeans are not just opposed to Sharon but to the whole policy of occupation, and all those people you mention supported occupation and colonisation.
ALL forms of racism are frown upon, including and most of all anti-semitism. Those anti-semitic attacks got more political attention than similar waves of for example anti-arab racism (just last week in Belgium a whole family of marrocans slaughtered by a frustrated le Pen-supporter), all are the work of a small minority, as the KKK in the US, but those are totally isolated from the rest of the population. it shows you never went to France or you would never claim this country to be anti-semitic.

[Evolution]

France is not an Arab colony, the way America is a province of Israel-and Capitol Hill is another occupied territory. France is just smart-money talks, the Arabs have more money then Israel.

Israel's GNP is ~ $45 bn, KSA alone is ~$130bn. Add all the other Arabs states, and see who'd you rather keep as a happy go lucky trading partner?

I will say that France is a good supplier of Arms to both Arabs and Israel. Having said that, Pakistan is negotiating the sale of 40 Mirage 2000-H/N's or perhaps even Rapheale's from the FR this week. The new French Defence minister has almost garunteed her Govts clearance of the sale. I will be even more pro France now. :D :cool:

[Mediocrates]

You're Paki, right? Going to war with the Hindus this week?

[Evolution]

I am Pakistani yes, are you a ?

See how racism breeds more racism there. And if the term is deleted, so should the term Paki be. Both are racist.

We are not going to war. Dont worry your mind with that concern, we havent had a war for 31 years-compare that with the trigger happy US. :)

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You're Paki, right? Going to war with the Hindus this week?

Next month!

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewsGuy

Theoretically, that's true, but in practice, when it comes to the Arab Republic of France, or other biased EU countries, they are simply anti-Semitic. Here's why:

1. Europeans like to say that it's just that Europeans opposed the policies of Sharon, but as we know, EU countries have voted against Israel during the tenure of ALL past Israeli governments, including Sharon, Netanyahu, Peres, Rabin, Shamir, Begin, etc., even though these governments had different policies. So, it has become obvious that European countries have been anti-Israel for decades and not just anti any particular Israeli government policy.



2. At the same time, the Europeans supported dozens of biased UN resolutions that condemned Israel, but NEVER condemned the Palestinians or other Arabs and Islamic states for their roles terrorism againt Israel and massacre of innocent Israeli citizens.

Yes. Anything critize Israel is biased. By the way, I agree some of your point, when you critize china like Human rights, Taiwan, etc. I even agree some of your thoughts about Arabs.
However, It is not the other way around. You are just plain zionist, which anything zionist feed you. You will accept.

3. In European society, anti-Semitism has become acceptable to a large degree, while all other forms of racism are frowed upon. I believe this is largely due to the European governments' political anti-Semitism against Israel, as well as the huge amount of anti-Semitism among the Muslim population of Europe.

You must be kidding. European Jews are very well- represented in Europe. It is just European politics are uninfluenced by Lobbyist, like money politics in US. You forget to mention. There are many powerful european jewish politician and businessman. They don't support your point of zionist movement. So, when you say anti-semetics. It is ridicules.

[christian]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You're Paki, right? Going to war with the Hindus this week?

Yeah. When someone call a jew, goat is going to war with Pal. He will be banned in the forum. When some call pakistian. paki. It is not racism.
:mad:

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Evolution
France is not an Arab colony, the way America is a province of Israel-and Capitol Hill is another occupied territory.
....
Pakistan is negotiating the sale of 40 Mirage 2000-H/N's or perhaps even Rapheale's from the FR this week. The new French Defence minister has almost garunteed her Govts clearance of the sale. I will be even more pro France now. :D :cool:


So you're Eastern Eastern Eastern Normandy now? Who's in Who's pocket?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by christian


Yeah. When someone call a jew, goat is going to war with Pal. He will be banned in the forum. When some call pakistian. paki. It is not racism.
:mad:

:confused:

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by christian


Yeah. When someone call a jew, goat is going to war with Pal. He will be banned in the forum. When some call pakistian. paki. It is not racism.


*LOL*

[Vic]

Originally posted by christian
You must be kidding. European Jews are very well- represented in Europe.
Oh really?

[takeo]

yes that last statement is very true, maybe not as much as in the US, because less jews live here, but according to their share of the population the Jewish people here are well represented in political, economical, jurisdictional, and academic fields.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by NewsGuy



3. In European society, anti-Semitism has become acceptable to a large degree, while all other forms of racism are frowed upon. I believe this is largely due to the European governments' political anti-Semitism against Israel, as well as the huge amount of anti-Semitism among the Muslim population of Europe.

You in the UK should know exactly what I mean.

NewsGuy? There are facts and there are ... facts :rolleyes:

What you just said is a big load of BS said by someone who's probably never been to Europe. I forgive your latest remark, but promess never ever say something that stupid again. Are you out of your mind? Anti-semitism acceptable????? Give me one proof! Germany for example, still feels guilty about what they done in the 30's and 40's. I hate saying this again, but if there's one nation where people are still allowed to walk in the streets with Swastika's, it must be the US. There's NO anti-semitism in Europe.

I'm sorry to say it but as a webmaster you should not say such biased, worthless opinions, man. You've got a great site here, but if you speak out, please only limit yourself to facts and not to some stupid stereotypes you have on Europeans. I know this site is populated by Americans, but it would be nice to have some Europeans here as well. With these kinds of remarks, you 'll never attract them ...



KKK, rednecks ... they are no racists. It's only Europeans who are racist. Racism is a European invention, after all, that's were WWII started. :p

There are many Jews living in Europe, but they have all adapted themselves. In many cases, they also oppose Israel's latest military actions and think just like their gov'ts do.

[takeo]

you are right, those allegations are baseless and totally false, and they are coming from a deep frustration because the EU isn't unconditional behind Israel as the US is.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You're Paki, right? Going to war with the Hindus this week?

Using the word paki is not that offensive, is it? But if paki is tolerated, than "Yid" and "" should also be tolerated. We talk about the Americans as Yanks, the French = the Frogs, so why not the Paki's? :D

[NewsGuy]

This discussion is continued Here >> (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=8279#post8279).