Alternative Israeli memorial ceremony

[sharonbn]

Alternative Israeli memorial ceremony

While the whole country is busy organizing and attending official memorial ceremonies, a group of Jewish and Arab Israelis chose to hold a very diferent ceremony. The group calls itself "Local community" and is part of Hadash ultra-left political party. In its daily operation, the group focuses on establishing dialog between Jews and Arabs in Israel. The ceremony was held in club "The left bank" in Tel Aviv. Yuval Halperin, the organizer says the ceremony is intended to form an alternative to the official memorial day that has become "a day for militaristic propoganda."

A few dozens of people attended the event. Among them was Ibrahim Bushnack, whose nefew was killed in Oct. 2000 riots, Rami Elhannan, member of "The forum of bereaved Israeli and Arab parents", and many refusers and pacifists.

The eldest refusers, Jacob Khen, aged 90, told of an event that occurred in 1956, during the Sinai operation. "I was the intelligence officer at Tel Noff base, from which the paratroopers went on an operation to sieze the Suetz canal. I told my commanders that I refuse to participate in this operation for political reasons. No pacifism, no mercy, just political reasons. With me there were two other officers who refused to participate for similar reasons. this caused a fierce controversy in the officers dining hall. finally we were placed outside the base." Khen added that he believes that political refusing is the the most appropriate one.

Moshe Yehudai, refuser from the 60s, told how he was influenced by Natan Hovashin, who is considered one of the first refusers in Israel. "Hovashin refused acts of opression as far back as the period of the "Second Aliyah" in the 20s." Yehudaitold of talks he held with Hovashin during the 50s and 60s and how thse talks affected his decision to refuse to be enlisted to the army.

Representing the young generation of refusers was Uri Ya'ackobie. He said that the Israeli actions in the occupied territories do not serve anybody except the higher levels of the political realm. "Eliminating Yassin was a mistake. Someone else will replace him and the terror attacks will continue, so what have we gained from this? What have we gained from the occupation in general?"

Ya'ackobie's grandmother, Hava Keller, who fought in the independance war of 1948, also attended the ceremony. Sha said that after she saw how Israel expelled Arab civilians and prevented the chance for peace, she stopped believeing in the rightousness of war. "From that day, my 'career' as a Zionist ended, and I started searching for something else."

Rami Elhannan, bereaved parent, told how emotions of revenge filled him after the loss of his son. But after a while, these feelings chnaged to a desire for co-existense and peace.

Ruth Cantor, of the ultra-left organization "New profile" described how military syumbols penetrates daily lives of Israelis: "A picture of the chief of stuff hanging on a kindergarten wall, children in Poorim wearing military custumes, street names (e.g. "Gaza conqueres" street in Ramat Gan, sharonbn) popular military radio station, army slang in daily language, etc." Cantor told how she was asked to prepare an essey about memorial day at her junior high school. Her essey included anti war and pro peace statements. The school principal requested to talk with her and the essey was put away.

Minutes before the ceremonial sirens went off, Halperin explained to the participants that the sirens is intended for all victims of violence, occupation and wars.

* translated from Ynet.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Alternative Israeli memorial ceremony

While the whole country is busy organizing and attending official memorial ceremonies, a group of Jewish and Arab Israelis chose to hold a very diferent ceremony. The group calls itself "Local community" and is part of Hadash ultra-left political party. In its daily operation, the group focuses on establishing dialog between Jews and Arabs in Israel. The ceremony was held in club "The left bank" in Tel Aviv. Yuval Halperin, the organizer says the ceremony is intended to form an alternative to the official memorial day that has become "a day for militaristic propoganda."
<sarcasm=Great idea! I suggest moving this day to the Arab's Land Day!></sarcasm>

When the Arabs stop their milaterism, then they can preach to us what they consider "militaristic propaganda".

Almost forgot to mention:

Let's give them a state! (http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/CFW/details.aspx?iid=3464422&print=true)

[sharonbn]

The (undisputed) fact that the Arabs have a militaristic culture that glorifies suicide bombers and terror attacks, does not in any way justifies Israeli militaristic culture. Arab culture can serve as an example of what ahappens when militaristic culture goes to the extreme. The army and the military issue in general are not 'positive' values that should be praised and glorified. They are necessities of life. a "lesser evil".

Of course we shoud mourn and remember the soldiers who have died in defense of the country. Every family (including mine) remembers a lost member. However, I intend to provide my daughter with a 'normal' environment, free from military aspects as much as I can. I don't wish for her to develop a military career.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
The (undisputed) fact that the Arabs have a militaristic culture that glorifies suicide bombers and terror attacks, does not in any way justifies Israeli militaristic culture.
Wake up! We're at war and we're not happy about it.

Do we have military parades?

Does our government consist of mustached and bearded men in uniforms, with holsters at their sides?

However, I intend to provide my daughter with a 'normal' environment, free from military aspects as much as I can.
In the long run, all you're doing is hiding the truth from your daughter and twisting it with equations of Palestinian barbarity and Israel defending itself.

It's amazing how many people and their children I know who do not have or would ever contemplate having a military career, yet know how to show the respect one day a year for those that laid down their lives so that the rest of us would have those choices in the first place.

Go! Cry with you nakba friends!

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
The (undisputed) fact that the Arabs have a militaristic culture that glorifies suicide bombers and terror attacks, does not in any way justifies Israeli militaristic culture. Arab culture can serve as an example of what ahappens when militaristic culture goes to the extreme. The army and the military issue in general are not 'positive' values that should be praised and glorified. They are necessities of life. a "lesser evil".

Of course we shoud mourn and remember the soldiers who have died in defense of the country. Every family (including mine) remembers a lost member. However, I intend to provide my daughter with a 'normal' environment, free from military aspects as much as I can. I don't wish for her to develop a military career.

Wishing peace is not the opposite of believe in self defense and self preservation.

What the far left calls "militarism" is a healthy and reasonable reaction to the reality we live in. There are a billion Yassin and Rantissi all over the world. Nothing you'll do will change that. If you'll ignore them, they won't go away. Putting a wet towell over you're eyes and talking peace will not change the reality. There are people out there who are about to eat you. In modern times, you cannot run and cannot hide. You're left with to options: Kill your self of fight and maybe survive.

If one thing our history had tought (some of us, at least) is that there is no alternative for self defense, and only a society as a whole can provide you with one. The sword and shield of our society are the brave men and women, our brotherens in uniforms of the IDF, police and broderguards and members of our intetligence community.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Wake up! We're at war and we're not happy about it.

Moshe Dayan said (in a documentary in channel 8) "I like waging war. its the most exciting times I have had."


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Do we have military parades?
We USED to have military parades. I remember seeing one when I was a child. We still have air shows on the sea shore of Tel Aviv to this day.


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Does our government consist of mustached and bearded men in uniforms, with holsters at their sides?
Our PM is a former general. So was the one before him. Our defense ministers have always been former generals (unlike the US for example, where both defense secretary and security advisors come from a civil background) Many of our ministers are former generals or high officers. We can definitely conclude that Israeli political life is dominated by military personnel.


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
In the long run, all you're doing is hiding the truth from your daughter and twisting it with equations of Palestinian barbarity and Israel defending itself.
You can say the same thing about drug addiction, sexual harassment and verbal abuse. Should I curse my child to better prepare her for the visit to the market? My child will be aware and prepared for life in Israel. I don't intend to shield her from reality. What I meant was that I want my child NOT to dress in military uniform in purim, play with toy guns, read books like Hasamba or have field trips to places like ammunition hill in Jerusalem and listen to heroic battle stories from veterans.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Moshe Dayan said (in a documentary in channel 8) "I like waging war. its the most exciting times I have had."
I believe he's dead.

Did any of his children take over the country?

Tell me, do you know of a country which doesn't have a chief of staff or a defense minister?


We USED to have military parades. I remember seeing one when I was a child.
But we don't anymore and not for a long time. Precisely because we, all of us, as a nation, feel it doesn't suit us.

We still have air shows on the sea shore of Tel Aviv to this day.
Oh! Shudders!

Our PM is a former general. So was the one before him. Our defense ministers have always been former generals (unlike the US for example, where both defense secretary and security advisors come from a civil background) Many of our ministers are former generals or high officers. We can definitely conclude that Israeli political life is dominated by military personnel.
Did they take over the government in a coupe? Or were they democratically elected?

I suppose the next thing you'll tell is is that you saw a soldier in uniform outside, with a gun! :eek:

You can say the same thing about drug addiction, sexual harassment and verbal abuse. Should I curse my child to better prepare her for the visit to the market?
No. Did I tell you to buy your child a gun and pretend to shoot enemies?

My child will be aware and prepared for life in Israel. I don't intend to shield her from reality. What I meant was that I want my child NOT to dress in military uniform in purim, play with toy guns, read books like Hasamba
All of this does not negate the realities of the world in which we live in.

or have field trips to places like ammunition hill in Jerusalem and listen to heroic battle stories from veterans.
Don't bother going to Yad Vashem either. The truth hurts.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Wishing peace is not the opposite of believe in self defense and self preservation.

couldn't have said it better myself, so I'll repeat it: Wishing peace is not the opposite of believing in self defense and self preservation.
Good show, Gilg.

My peace-seeking ideology comes from a strong belief that long lasting peace and an end to terror attacks will come only when the Palestinians themselves will commit to peace, not by unilateral actions. Of course, I could be wrong, but nevertheless I am motivated mainly by desire of self preservation of the Israeli state and its people.


Originally posted by Gilgamesh
What the far left calls "militarism" is a healthy and reasonable reaction to the reality we live in
This is true. I am concerned in a more broad aspect. I fear that people in Israel view the army not as a tool which helps in achieving political/diplomatic goals (i.e. peace) but as a cultural value with its own ceremonies, customs, language, heroes, etc. a definitive part of the Israeli society. This is evident for example from the glorification that is bestowed upon our war heroes and generals. Sharon, Rabin and Barak used that glory to advance in the political ladder. In the US, movie actors enjoy the same unsubstantiated glorification. All this personality cult around military generals makes people believe in magical quick solutions (zbeng-vegamarnu...) I think Israelis rely too much on the military might of their army.

You say "The sword and shield of our society are the brave men and women, our brotherens in uniforms of the IDF, police and broderguards and members of our intetligence community." I fear that we lay in the protective shadow of the sword and shield for so long that now we cannot look beyond them.

[Mira~]

I remember reading somewhere about a teacher who would ask his students about their "backgrounds." He would go around the room, and the students would reply,

"I'm a Catholic."

"I'm Irish"

"I'm Italian"

"I'm French"

"I'm Mexican"

"I'm a human being"


The teacher said that he always knew who the Jews were in the class because they were the ones who always answered "I'm a human being." I thought of that when I read the statement at the end of the first post..."Minutes before the ceremonial sirens went off, Halperin explained to the participants that the sirens is intended for all victims of violence, occupation and wars."

How come the Catholic is proud to identify with his faith or the Mexican with his cultural-ethnic heritage? Is universalism a result of being more enlightened than the Catholic or Mexican, more arrogant, or more ashamed? I don't know. But I notice it myself with Jooos quite a lot.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
I believe he's dead.
So what? He's still considered a heroic figure in Israel. I don't deny Dayan's contribution to the country, but I don't believe him to be a hero and a role model.
I wish for role models like Bialik or Agnon or Altermann.


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Tell me, do you know of a country which doesn't have a chief of staff or a defense minister?
Must the defense minister be a former general? I think not. I think the defense minister should not come from military background, so that he/she will bring the civilian/political/diplomatic pov to military decisions and act as balance to the army generals, that too often do not see more than the military objective.


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Did they take over the government in a coupe? Or were they democratically elected?
Precisely my point.
First of all, I do not and never have equated Arab regimes with Israeli gov't, so you can stop with the insinuations.
Second, my point was that because of the overly exaggerated weight that the military carries in Israeli life, we willingly and happily crown our generals as our leaders, believing that only they will bring "peace and security". after 56 years, maybe we should give a chance to someone else.

I believe that while we continue this personality cult of the generals and continue to glorify army life, we inherit the same pov to our children.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mira
The teacher said that he always knew who the Jews were in the class because they were the ones who always answered "I'm a human being."

I define myself as first and foremost a Jew. i.e. belongs to the Jewish people.
after that I am a Zionist, an Israeli, a humanist, a male.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
So what? He's still considered a heroic figure in Israel. I don't deny Dayan's contribution to the country, but I don't believe him to be a hero and a role model.
He was a hero once and he went out as a failure.

Do you see any 20 story tall monuments in his memory?

He's a famous part of Israel's history. He played pivotal roles for good and for bad and everyone knows it.

The only one recently I've heard hyping up Dayan, in fact, is you.

Role model? Maybe I'm living in the enlightened section of our country.


I wish for role models like Bialik or Agnon or Altermann.
OK. At least Agnon has made it onto the 50 Shekel bill. Dayan didn't.


Must the defense minister be a former general? I think not.
I agree. For example, Moshe Arens was defense minister and not a former general, correct.

But that doesn't negate former generals from being qualified for the position.

I think the defense minister should not come from military background, so that he/she will bring the civilian/political/diplomatic pov to military decisions and act as balance to the army generals, that too often do not see more than the military objective.
I agree with you on this point in general but I find it irrelevant to the topic this thread is discussing.

Precisely my point.
First of all, I do not and never have equated Arab regimes with Israeli gov't, so you can stop with the insinuations.
Why don't you read the article you posted:

Minutes before the ceremonial sirens went off, Halperin explained to the participants that the sirens is intended for all victims of violence, occupation and wars.

You are what you post. :rolleyes:

Second, my point was that because of the overly exaggerated weight that the military carries in Israeli life, we willingly and happily crown our generals as our leaders, believing that only they will bring "peace and security". after 56 years, maybe we should give a chance to someone else.
Again, I personally agree with you but:

1. That's not the same as the subject of this thread.

2. Frankly, the choices in today's politicians stink altogether, with or without military careers.

I believe that while we continue this personality cult of the generals and continue to glorify army life, we inherit the same pov to our children.
I just don't see the "cult" you're talking about anywhere. Do a lot of your neigbor's children have their rooms plastered with pictures of Sharon, Barak, Lipkin Shahak, Fuad and others in full dress uniform?

Do you live in a military barracks?

[Binyamin]

Originally posted by sharonbn
My peace-seeking ideology comes from a strong belief that long lasting peace and an end to terror attacks will come only when the Palestinians themselves will commit to peace, not by unilateral actions. Of course, I could be wrong, but nevertheless I am motivated mainly by desire of self preservation of the Israeli state and its people.


My right-wing ideology comes from the same premise. Since peace will only come when the Palastinians show initiative, that means that until then talking to them is useless. That leaves us with fighting or other unilateral action.
How did it bring you to a left-wing ideology?



This is true. I am concerned in a more broad aspect. I fear that people in Israel view the army not as a tool which helps in achieving political/diplomatic goals (i.e. peace) but as a cultural value with its own ceremonies, customs, language, heroes, etc. a definitive part of the Israeli society. This is evident for example from the glorification that is bestowed upon our war heroes and generals. Sharon, Rabin and Barak used that glory to advance in the political ladder. In the US, movie actors enjoy the same unsubstantiated glorification. All this personality cult around military generals makes people believe in magical quick solutions (zbeng-vegamarnu...) I think Israelis rely too much on the military might of their army.

You say "The sword and shield of our society are the brave men and women, our brotherens in uniforms of the IDF, police and broderguards and members of our intetligence community." I fear that we lay in the protective shadow of the sword and shield for so long that now we cannot look beyond them.

The army is definately a definitave and integral part of Israeli society. Does that mean that we are all blood thirsty? It means that we have to fight and that we have to maintain an army.

When we remember those who died for the country we are not condoning specific actions or philosophies. We are recognizing that people died so we can have our state and live as we do. Perhaps it could have been done differently, but that does not minimize what they did.

Unless, of course someone thinks that Israel should not have been created because of the conflict and suffering that would be involved. In that case, they have nothing to celebrate, remember, or appreciate.
Ya'ackobie's grandmother, Hava Keller, who fought in the independance war of 1948, also attended the ceremony. Sha said that after she saw how Israel expelled Arab civilians and prevented the chance for peace, she stopped believeing in the rightousness of war. "From that day, my 'career' as a Zionist ended, and I started searching for something else." This lady, for example.



As to those who refuse for "political" reasons- they are completely immoral. They hurt the country with their divisiveness, while they do not give any sort of political gain. How can an army or society function if each person goes with his own opinion of how to do things? (I think driving would be much easier if everyone was on the left side of the street, so that is how I drive. One day the rest of the country will see the wisdom in that.)

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
He was a hero once and he went out as a failure.
Dayan, Yigal Alon, Yitzhak Sade - all of these names are remembered and their life stories told.


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Do you see any 20 story tall monuments in his memory?
There are streets (and boulevards) named after him - does that count in your book? :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
I agree with you on this point in general but I find it irrelevant to the topic this thread is discussing.
The topic we are discussing is how much does the army affect daily lives in Israel and is it good or bad. High Political positions serve as indication of the role models that a coutry looks up to. The same phenomena may be observed in the US where they seem to look up to movie actors.


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Why don't you read the article you posted:

Minutes before the ceremonial sirens went off, Halperin explained to the participants that the sirens is intended for all victims of violence, occupation and wars.

I think it is a lovely interpratation of the memorial siren and it does not draw in any way a comparison between Israeli gov't and Arab regimes. During this conflict, many have died: civilians and soldiers, Israeli and Arabs. We should remember all of them as they are all needless victims of this futile conflict.

Showing empathy and remorse for the dead and wounded among your enemy is not a sign of weakness, its a sign of humanity. and it does not say anything whatsoever about Israeli gov't and Arab regimes.


Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
I just don't see the "cult" you're talking about anywhere. Do a lot of your neigbor's children have their rooms plastered with pictures of Sharon, Barak, Lipkin Shahak, Fuad and others in full dress uniform?
What about paper models of fighter jets? what about plastic miniature soldiers? what about toy guns?

[Ophra]

As to those who refuse for "political" reasons- they are completely immoral. They hurt the country with their divisiveness, while they do not give any sort of political gain. How can an army or society function if each person goes with his own opinion of how to do things? (I think driving would be much easier if everyone was on the left side of the street, so that is how I drive. One day the rest of the country will see the wisdom in that.)

I agree with that completely.

I define myself as first and foremost .... an Israeli.

A leader who doesn't hesitate before he sends his nation into battle is not fit to be a leader.
Golda Meir

It is true we have won all our wars, but we have paid for them. We don't want victories anymore.
Golda Meir

We do not rejoice in victories. We rejoice when a new kind of cotton is grown and when strawberries bloom in Israel.
Golda Meir

We don't thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient.
Golda Meir

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Binyamin
[B]My right-wing ideology comes from the same premise. Since peace will only come when the Palastinians show initiative, that means that until then talking to them is useless. That leaves us with fighting or other unilateral action.
How did it bring you to a left-wing ideology?

What do you imagine the avarage Pal says to himself? He says peace will only come when Israel will show an initiative. So where does it end? we're waiting for them and they're waiting for us - how convinient indeed.

I didn't say peace will come when the Pals will take the initiative. I said peace will come when they will commit to the road of peace. On the contrary, I believe Israel is the one that should take the initative and try to develop a dialog with whoever is willing to talk.

and don't tell me there isn't anyone willing to talk - the Geneva accord was created for that purpose - to show all of you right wingers that there is someone to talk to.

Israel caves in to terrorist demands (i.e. Hizbuallah) but gives hell to someone who tries to talk to it (i.e. Abu Mazen) What conclusion do you think Palestinians can draw from this?

Remind me how did it bring you to a right-wing ideology?

[Mediocrates]

But sharon, weren't most of those characters from the left-socialist-far left to begin with? Hasn't Israel historically been run from the left? It would seem to me at least that your beef is with the mechanics of survival and not with the ideology or politics that happen to engineer those mechanics from one year to the next. For example, take your own distaste of Israeli society out of the equation, look at China, is China which is dramatically less militaristic now than a decade ago, also significantly less authoritarian and restrictive? No it's not, the problem is not militarism, which in my mind was a call in the 1930's against fascism, but instead, the problems are restrictions imposed on a society by the tools of responding to an amorphous terrorism. Would the US PATRIOT act or the Dept Homeland Security (DHS) be any more or less invasive if we had tanks in the streets? No probably not.

At any rate I'm not Israeli but it does seem like your objection is about the trappings of the past.

[Binyamin]

What about paper models of fighter jets? what about plastic miniature soldiers? what about toy guns?
Every kid in the world likes to play with these things. They have nothing to do with a militaristic culture.


Does naming a street after a great general who did a lot for the country mean that we have a death-cult, or does it mean that we remember those who fought for the country?

You say that the Palastinians are waiting for Israel. We came forward with Oslo, and with many "confidence building measures." Where are they?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Binyamin
You say that the Palastinians are waiting for Israel. We came forward with Oslo, and with many "confidence building measures." Where are they?

Ah yes, Oslo. I love it when right-wingers wave Oslo as the evidence of Israeli desire for peace, its so ironic when you use the left great achivement in your argument, and at the same time cry out "Oslo criminals to justice".

as to the issue, I have two point to make:

1) Oslo ultimately failed, that is true. But at least in my eyes, the agreement didn't leave a feeling of disapointment and disbelief. I see the agreement in a broad sense as the beginning of a long process of shift in the psychic of the Israeli general public towards acceptence of how a plausible solution to the conflict should be and what concessions are needed. Things that the left knew long before and are now beginning to sink in the minds of Likud leaders. I believe Sharon's separation plan could not have been made unless the left paved the road in the heart of the Israeli public.

2) Even if we take the Oslo agreement as a separate event, I don't see why this should be the last nail in the coffin of the peace process. So Oslo failed, and 2000 Camp David as well. So? that's it? we abandon all hope for peace and wait for the other side to initiate? Maybe Arafat is not a viable partner. Maybe Barak rushed the Camp David summit prematurely, Maybe there are other changes that need to take place before peace can come. but one or two or more failures do not make the way wrong in my book.

What about the failure of the right's greatest enterprise - the settlements? I mean, the chief architect and executioner of that enterprise, Ariel Sharon is now effectively admitting this whole project was a mistake. I bet he wishes today he didn't start the whole thing.

The Oslo agreement and the agreements that followed

[Binyamin]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Ah yes, Oslo. I love it when right-wingers wave Oslo as the evidence of Israeli desire for peace, its so ironic when you use the left great achivement in your argument, and at the same time cry out "Oslo criminals to justice".

I do not see any irony. Israel showed that it was prepared for peace, but approached peace with criminal negligence.



as to the issue, I have two point to make:

1) Oslo ultimately failed, that is true. But at least in my eyes, the agreement didn't leave a feeling of disapointment and disbelief. I see the agreement in a broad sense as the beginning of a long process of shift in the psychic of the Israeli general public towards acceptence of how a plausible solution to the conflict should be and what concessions are needed. Things that the left knew long before and are now beginning to sink in the minds of Likud leaders. I believe Sharon's separation plan could not have been made unless the left paved the road in the heart of the Israeli public.
First, while Oslo changed Israeli attitudes, did it have any positive effect on Palastinian attitudes? That is the relevant question.

Second, Sharon did not accept the Left's position. He is responding to the new reality that Oslo and the Intifada left us with. You say that Oslo paved the road to seperation, but without Oslo there would not be any need for seperation.
Oslo did nopt teach anyone on the right anything new, it just changed the political reality.



2) Even if we take the Oslo agreement as a separate event, I don't see why this should be the last nail in the coffin of the peace process. So Oslo failed, and 2000 Camp David as well. So? that's it? we abandon all hope for peace and wait for the other side to initiate? Maybe Arafat is not a viable partner. Maybe Barak rushed the Camp David summit prematurely, Maybe there are other changes that need to take place before peace can come. but one or two or more failures do not make the way wrong in my book.

What about the failure of the right's greatest enterprise - the settlements? I mean, the chief architect and executioner of that enterprise, Ariel Sharon is now effectively admitting this whole project was a mistake. I bet he wishes today he didn't start the whole thing.
We should continue to try to make peace, but only after understanding what went wrong with Oslo, and avoiding all its mistakes. If that leaves us waiting for Palastinian initiative, then we will be stuck waiting.

The settlements did not fail- they were destroyed by the Left.

[Ophra]

The settlements did not fail- they were destroyed by the Left.

Could you please explain that statement ? .... I'm not attacking your viewpoint... I'm just trying to understand.

In the past I have always thought that if giving up the settlements (even part of Jerusalem) meant Peace.. then it was worth it... now I'm not so sure.

[Binyamin]

Originally posted by Ophra
Could you please explain that statement ? .... I'm not attacking your viewpoint... I'm just trying to understand.

In the past I have always thought that if giving up the settlements (even part of Jerusalem) meant Peace.. then it was worth it... now I'm not so sure.
If it would have been impossible to keep the settlements even without any action by the Left, then that would mean they were a failure. For example, if they would not be able to keep any significant population, or if the Palastinians would have started the current intifada before any deals.

The Settlement were able to build a large community and good infrastructure, and without peace deals and anti-settlement campaigning there never would have been a political situation that would force Israel to dismantle the settlements. Therefore I say that they wren't a failure. They had what it needed to survive.

Now a new reality has been created because of Oslo, because of which Sharon wants to uproot settlements. Oslo created the reason for removing them.



As far as giving up the settlements for a true peace, I think most settlers would vote in favor. They are opposed to peace deals with people they do not trust and without guarantees, and they oppose leaving without getting anything tangible in return.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Binyamin
If it would have been impossible to keep the settlements even without any action by the Left, then that would mean they were a failure. For example, if they would not be able to keep any significant population, or if the Palastinians would have started the current intifada before any deals.

Oh plllllease, this is just like saying that we 'lost' the Sinai because of the peace agreement with Egypt. We didn't 'lose' the Sinai, it was given BACK to its owner as part of a peace agreement.

The left understood back in 1993 what the Likud is starting to understand ten years after: any tangible solution to the conflict comes at the cost of territories. (btw, the left didn't set this precedence) So the left didn't 'destroy' the settlements. as I said, it paved the road to what was inevitable but needed to be digested by the general public.

one more point:

FYI,

after all the agreements and the withdrawals and the concessions (the left's 'actions' as you call them) - up to today, Israel did not dismantle not even A SINGLE settlement that was authorized by the gov't. NOT EVEN A SINGLE ONE (with the exclusion of Yamit, that was given to the Egyptians, not Pals). This includes Rabin's labor-Meretz gov't and Barak's period.

All that ever was dismantled were illegal outposts, established by setlers with absolutely NO gov't approval. It is **illegal** in Israel to establish residence in a new place without proper authorization. This is true in Israel as well as in the occupied territories, regardless if the land is own by someone or not.

and what about the first intifadah?

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Oh plllllease, this is just like saying that we 'lost' the Sinai because of the peace agreement with Egypt. We didn't 'lose' the Sinai, it was given BACK to its owner as part of a peace agreement. I never believed in peace with Egypt. There is no such thing. We will be forced to occupay Sinai yet again, and it will cost us more lived of the prime of our youth, again. The same part of land we liberated 3 times in the past.

I prefer to look at the Sinai lose as part of an agreement with the Americans. Israel get foreign aid in the shape of military hardware, and the Jimmie Carter get the Noble peace prize and life long occupaytion of sticking his nose in other people problems.


The left understood back in 1993 what the Likud is starting to understand ten years after: any tangible solution to the conflict comes at the cost of territories. (btw, the left didn't set this precedence) So the left didn't 'destroy' the settlements. as I said, it paved the road to what was inevitable but needed to be digested by the general public.

I agree that Begin set few terrible and awful presendeces. Yet it is foolish to hang on them. Judea and Samaria, like Gaza are a whole different thing then Sinai, both historicly, nationaly, religiously and practical defense tactics.

So, please, Sharon, don't confuse the cooking of the mass by the left with right demage control (for however idiotic).


one more point:

FYI,

after all the agreements and the withdrawals and the concessions (the left's 'actions' as you call them) - up to today, Israel did not dismantle not even A SINGLE settlement that was authorized by the gov't. NOT EVEN A SINGLE ONE (with the exclusion of Yamit, that was given to the Egyptians, not Pals). This includes Rabin's labor-Meretz gov't and Barak's period. What the left did, is by far worse then dismantleing. The left, aspecialy Rabin, were bussie in deligitimizing a healthy part of the nation. delegitimizing and demonising the most Zionist and altruistic parts of our nations. This crime, out weighs any other crime of dismanteling few houses, because it lays the ideological foundations for delegitimizing the whole nation, and Israel entire right for existance.


All that ever was dismantled were illegal outposts, established by setlers with absolutely NO gov't approval. It is **illegal** in Israel to establish residence in a new place without proper authorization. This is true in Israel as well as in the occupied territories, regardless if the land is own by someone or not. Removabl of "illegal" outpost , is a racist aplication of the law, since the law and it's enforcement do not applay to Arabs and Badawins. The whole Negev is filled and chocked by illegal Arab and Badawin settlements and simple land theft, with none to confront them. If the goverment is willing to enforce the law, it must be applay eaqually to Jews and gentiles alike.


and what about the first intifadah? Still hurting, terrible shape, little ill. Nevertheless, thank you for asking.