land return

[thrud]

I don't think Israel should give any land back to anyone, anymore than anyone expects the US to give land back to Mexico. They would like California and Texas back, but have decided that NAFTA was good enough, money is always better than a pile of dead people.

[victot]

if it would bring peace, and doesn't endanger the state of israel as it is today, i think they should give some land.

[bakuda]

normally, you keep the land you win in war... especially if it was a defensive war. But, one must understandt he unique position Israel is in. Firstly, the international pressure to return land is very great. Secondly, Israel is a small nation in the midst, surrounded by hostile arab nations. And lastly, the palestinians are in the midst of us, expecting the land to be returned. We can do little with the force we have. Our power stemming from the army is only good enought to play a role in ensuring our existance... but diplomacy goes the extra step of securing a peacful existance.

[Mediocrates]

We wouldn't be having this discussion if the Israelis were brave enough to move a million settlers into the West Bank to begin with instead of 200,000. At 10% of the population they're seen as the invaders. At a million they'd be the expression of cultural inevitability and too big an issue for the West to feel it needed to feel good about itself over.

Let's see the Palestinians itch for a country if part of the deal HAD to include another 800,000 Jewish immigrants to be granted full Palestinian citizenship with their protection guranteed under international treaty. Ya Think????? me neither, but's it's jsut about LAND right? bwahahahahaha.

[thrud]

When I was in high school (15 years ago) I thought it was about land, but I have since had a change of heart and have seen that the PA and its Arab/EU buddies would like to shove Israel into the Mediterranean.

I really hate what is going on over there and the hypocritical way the EU and the US has conducted themselves.

Peace is a pipe dream, unless the PA is willing to give it a go, but unfortunately they are not. They would rather have a pile of dead people to dance around than have peace.

[gev]

land must be returned evantually, reason: Phalsestinian population.
as I see it, there are 4 posibilities:
1. Present situation: Phalestanians have no civilian rights.
2. evacuate all phalestanian to Egypt and Jordan.
3. treat them as Arab-Israelies, give them "blue" IDs
4. help them establish a peaceful Phalestanian state that will, as they see it, "honor their civil rights"

Posibilities 1,2 are Immoral.
Possibility 3 threatens the exisitence of Israel, for the Population is hostile to the existence of Israel.
Possibilty 4, seems the only way. I agree that the PA with it's current leader will not establish a peaceful state, but in time when there will be a more reasonable leaders, this the way to go.

if we agree this should be the way, in the mean time while we are waiting for the change in Phalestanian thinking, some settlements should be revised for the use of keeping them and guarding them: risking Israeli soldiers, Settlers and preventing Israel of offering the best security for all it's citicens.

[Mediocrates]

But let's be clear that it will be a blank wall to the Israelis. Jews won't be allowed to work or live there. The PLO will create all kinds of trade barriers to make it nigh impossible for the two to effectively trade. Palestinian companies doing business with the Israelis will probably get burned to the ground. When the settlers leave there will be a storm of criticism that the Israelis didn't leave fully functioning utopian Disneyworld facilities behind. The Palestinian 'air force' will be allowed to overfly Israel but not the reverse. And as it sinks it that it really is Israel's East Germany collapsing around itself, the PA will again scream with an implied threat of terrorism that unlimited numbers of Palestinians must be allowed to work and/or live in Israel, because after all "we're weak, there's nothing we can do about it." Would you bet that Palestinian guest workers won't be required to pay Israeli taxes either? I might.

When the Iron curtain collapsed it became patently clear that the Soviets really weren't a world super power but instead they had the good luck to have some atomic bombs and an ability to make a tiny number of very advanced technological devices at the expense of nearly everything else in their society. I suspect this is what you'll see with the PA. They will be very good at making a few copies of some sophisticated something or service and they will proclaim victory while vast numbers of Palestinians live in squalor and misery just like today. Seriously, compared to any other world bank or IMF project has anyone tallied up what it take to jump start the PA? It's got to be enormous. There is no political structure, no capital, no markets, no currency (none of which has any bearing economically on Israel's 'occupation') Compared to your average teetering African, South American, or
Asian economy the Palestinians look like a horrible risk for investment. In lieu of that the world, the whole world, even the Arab world would have to kick in multi billions of aid with no strings attached or expectation of progress. And with no identifiable separation between strong man politics and the flow of money through the country you can bet that most of that capital would be siphoned off just like it is in Equitorial Africa, Burma, Hati and similar places.

My only question is that after the highly educated, young and dissatisfied Palestinian population realizes that economically, independence bought them ZERO, how long will they wait to rise up against their own corrupt rulers?

[gev]

Israel's Ideal Phalestanian leaders are the ones who will establish a democracy, and provide all the Phalestanian civil rights, and develop the state to a productive and peacefull state. but, this is a very unreal situation. and Israel should "settle" with a leader that is simply not hostile to Israel (so Yasser Arafat is excluded)
the question of when the phalestanian will rise up against their ruller should only intrest Israel if there is a possbility of Islamic extremists getting to power.
for this, while trying to get peace in the region, Iraq and Iran's current regimes should be replaced. this will also help getting the peace faster. (Iraq and Iran are doing all they can to inflame the conflict).

and yes, I do think that phalestanian and Arabs will be very productive, economically, if not oppressed by their goverments.

[Mediocrates]

I said this before, their best bet is to be a Las Vegas for the muslim world. As a secular society there are no real prohibitions to offering those kinds of services normally denied to wealthy Arabs. It shares a border with 'moderate' Jordan, it's (sort of) close to the Mediterranean, it's got the Dead Sea and large population that is already somewhat familiar with survellience, transporting cash and electronics. AFAIK there is no prohibition in a secular state to charging interest, gambling, alcohol and prostitution. Combine it with weekend junkets to the al Aqsa mosque and your average Ali would jump at the chance to get away from his 4 wives for a little R+R, a little hashish, a little baccarat, a little kohl eyed beauty...

Hazzan is in the Hizz-ouse !!!

[cerulean]

Isn't that the sort of role that Beirut used to play?

[Mediocrates]

Yeah before it became a permanent smoking hole in the ground - but I think it more of a dark decandent place for seriously jaded Europeans, like Macau or Casablanca. No this would be more like Adu Dhabi which serves that function now, but mostly for rich Saudis who only have to drive across a bridge to get there.

[Gatorade]

Originally posted by thrud
I don't think Israel should give any land back to anyone, anymore than anyone expects the US to give land back to Mexico. They would like California and Texas back, but have decided that NAFTA was good enough, money is always better than a pile of dead people.

I disagree. If the Palestinians get leaders truely want peace, there should and has to be a Palestinian state.

The Palestinians do have historical ties to the land and I don't think there will ever be peace until they get an independent state on the West Bank. However, the current leaders of the PA have not shown me any evidence that if given a state now that this bring about peace.

[thrud]

I'll buy that concept, but the Palestinians need to stop screaming for Israeli blood. "Possession is 90% of the law." I don't know how this applies in the Middle East, but they don't have the land now and they ought to live by the rules of the guys who do own it.

Europe is a traditionally an anti-semitic region that seems to think they have to keep the Jews down everywhere in the world and so force Israel into unfair peace treaties they would not stomach themselves. The concept that for some reason the Jews owe them anything is unfathomable.

If they don't like what Israel is doing stop offering aid, not prove your stupidity through your own hatred and immaturity.

If the Palestinians want a place to live they ought to act like people who are going to be good neighbors (whether they play the music loud [no crazy reggae though] or keep the grass cut is their own business: they should put out the garbage though, Yassar has just got to go), not people who are about the elimination of another society.

I am sure the Jews in Israel want nothing better than to live in peace, raise their children, and make money. I don't think they would mind extending the Palestinians the same right. Why shouldn't the Palestinians extend it to them?

I know the religious discussion well, and understand the underpinnings for why Mohammed declared that only Islam should be on the Earth; but I wonder if he meant a spiritual war, you know, door knocking Evangelicalism, instead of physical Evangelicalism (join or die!). They would get more converts that way (4 wives is a pretty good selling point) instead of losing some of their own (the Jehovah's Witnesses get kind of jealous, so there might be a random accident or two) and they might rule the Earth a lot quicker. :D

There is a better solution to the problem: death, murder, and stupidity just isn't it, boys. Think hard folks and something good (and possibly lucrative) will happen.

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Gatorade

The Palestinians do have historical ties to the land and I don't think there will ever be peace until they get an independent state on the West Bank. However, the current leaders of the PA have not shown me any evidence that if given a state now that this bring about peace.
You raise a complicated argument there. How doest it go in
Logic? ...something like a necessary but not sufficient requirement?
A Palestinian State is a necessary requirement for peace, that is to say, without it peace will not come, but it is not a
sufficient condition for peace, from a palestinian point of
view. Such an Sate is an step in the peace process but, as M. Elliot aptly puts it in the last issue of Time, the road to peace shouldn't be confused with the goal.
To achieve peace other issues will have to be negotiated:
the problem of the settlements, the refugees and Jerusalem. Compared with those three the issue of a Palestinian State is
by far the least complicated. It may be a good idea to start
with it as soon as possible so that both sides can get on with the ardous process of tackling the other three.

[Gatorade]

Good points Jorge.

I can only hope with a reasonable Palestinian leader that he/she would drop the right to return with the creation of a Palestinian state. Though it would be in the best interest to try to send off a poor group of citizens into another country, a responsible Palestinians leader would try to incorporate the refuges into the new state because the state would be created for the refuges to have a homeland.

Settlements are an issue but Israel has dismantled settlements before for peace so, even though all might not be dismanted, some can be negotiated to be dismanted.

Jerusalem is another matter. In my mind this is the most difficult matter even with reasonable Palestinian leadership. There is no way Israel is ever going to offer more than Baruk offered and even that offer was going to hard to get through. This is one area where the Palestinians might just have to give up and accept they were screwed over if they want a Palestinian state.

[Mediocrates]

Right of return to .......?

To a country that doesn't want them.
To a 'family farm' that doesn't exist and where something else is built on top of it.
To an imaginary paradise that never existed in the first place.

Let's say they are allowed to immigrate. Is it still a capital crime to sell land to a Jew like it was in the good old days? How much of this illusory 'right of return' are you willing to support? Let's the old family farm is now a biotech research lab, do the ISraelis have to tear it down or just give it to them. Does this sacred patch of earth or that one have a provenance? Does the returned Palestinian now get to live ANYWHERE in Israel??

[Mediocrates]

When a Jewish homeland was established it wasn't with the provision that at some unstated time in the future it would no longer BE a Jewish homeland but instead yet more Arab demi-nation. All the aplogists want to scream and cry about all the UN resolutions. OK. So obey the one that formed the Jewish state. Then we'll talk about what all the peaceful peace loving arabs want. Until that, well, you can screw yourselves.

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
When a Jewish homeland was established it wasn't with the provision that at some unstated time in the future it would no longer BE a Jewish homeland but instead yet more Arab demi-nation. All the aplogists want to scream and cry about all the UN resolutions. OK. So obey the one that formed the Jewish state. Then we'll talk about what all the peaceful peace loving arabs want. Until that, well, you can screw yourselves.

Sir:
a) The surest way to ensure that in the future will
cease to be a Jewish State is by continuing the occupation of the conquered territories indefinetely. (that is provided you agree with the current demographic predictions of 7.5 million palestinians by 2025)

b) The Palestinian Authority has repeatedly stated
that accepts the principle of two States coexisting side by side.
By prolonging the occupation of the said territories it is actually
Israel the party that is ignoring the UN partition resolution.

c) About scr####: it is not quite clear who's scr###
who. You see in the present situation palestinians have a lot
to win and very little more to lose; israelis on the other side
have virtually nothing to win and a lot to lose. There is or was
a Zionist dream of Israel as as a prosperous, just and free
country. Every year of continued conquest of the territories
places Israel farther and farther away from that dream.

[Mediocrates]

The argument that only the continued insistance that there be a jewish state will lead to its destruction is the kind of agitprop George Orwell would be proud of.

The PLO is getting a bargain. For zero investment and zero initiative they get their own welfare state free and clear with all the despostic nepotism they can steal.