Sharon - War Criminal? Part 2

[JustPat]

Note: This discussion is continued from Part 1 (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=527).
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Originally posted for response by by Northlander Get this in your head no one is guilty of any war crimes in Jenin. ?[/B]

Originally posted by Northlander
how do you know that? From israeli military sources?
Actually, Colin Powell made an official statement to that effect on Wednesday.
http://washtimes.com/upi-breaking/24042002-020922-9579r.htm

[Mediocrates]

Why do communities all over the world have to defend themselves from Islam, Islamic Nationalism, Radical Islamic fundamentalism, militant Islam, fundamentalist nationalism and a whole host of other nomme de guerre that cloaks this same world view. And I don't even mean nice friendly countries but some of the bigger Arab states as well such as Egypt? Why is almost every low grade civil war in Africa above the equator basically between militant muslims and someone else? Why did a million muslims die in the Iran Iraq war over the distinction between who has the holy high ground between Sunnis and Shiites? Why is Saudi Arabia pumping billions of dollars into militant fundamentalist Wahabbi programs around the world? Because it is simply about power and control. Violence and force. Death or glory.

Because the Arab muslim world view is basically and at its root a world view that sees everything which is not itself as a cancer which must be eradicated by force. Because it establishes a primitive linkage between religion and governance. Because in the absence of real political processes it relies on strong man dictator-king-tyrant leadership which establishes its own legitimacy by violence, force, brutality and fear. Because whole populations are enslaved for the enrichment of a few. Because it engenders oppression, suffering, poverty and ignorance that would make Mao's Cultural Revolution pale in comparison. Because in the end it matters little that Israel is Jewish. That it is not muslim Arab is enough. It could be a Christian state, Buddist or Martian. That doesn't matter. All that matters is that it is not Arab muslim and to the Arab muslim that it is enough to justify its destruction.

In one of the recent high level US trips to the mideast both the Syrians and the Jordanians were proud to point out how they dealt with terrorism. The Syrian president bragged how they shelled a whole city and killed 30-40,000 people with 18,000 missing. The Jordanians ran through the whole chronology how they infiltrated the PLO and then ran them back across the border into Israel with tanks, killing several thousand in the effort. Over 100,000 people are dead or unaccounted for in an undeclared civil war in Algeria between radical fundamentalists and the quas- seculare government. Egypt has 'reeducated' tens of thousands of imprisioned fundamentalists associated the the party that engineered Sadat's murder. Sudan, Niger, Chad have been engaged in low intensity civil wars that have killed, starved, dislocated, millions in fighting between the armies of Allah and anyone who gets in their way. Ethiopia, Somalia, need I say more?

Face it. The EU is scared shitless that a screaming horde of Klingons is going to come over the hill at them. And they will give up and sell out anyone they have to to avoid that possibility. They did it in the Balkans, they're doing it to Israel. Now I wonder what they'll do if it happens in Turkey. I suspect that suddenly, NATO membership won't mean that much anymore and they'll reach a 'negotiated' settlement all the time claiming that it can't get involved in Turkey's 'internal politics'.

[Northlander]

JustPat, I meant my support of palestinians is not about religion. I can condemn or support muslims. Sorry if I wasnt clear about that. I said it because I get accused of being especially fond of muslims.

[L@mplighterM]

Quote from Northlander:
This is the weak link in your argumentation.
Yes I agree that there might be a very small circle of Islamic Fundamentalists in sweden. They have never used any violence here. They are no eminent threat to swedish OR european society.




Who is going to save the world from Islamic Fundamentalism? Northlander?

Sweden has never as a whole indicated that it wants to protect the freedom in western societies all they want to do is come along for the ride.
I don?t claim to be an expert on Fundamentalism but I have read enough to convince me that it?s spreading its evil tentacles around the world.

Just yesterday I read about a religious leader called Omar Bakri Mohammad (by the way he?s one of 1000?s scattered throughout Europe)that wants to establish an Islamic State in Norway. One of his priorities is to ?KILL ALL JEWS? by the way if you visit the site to which I?m going to provide a link for you can get a ?FREE COPY OF THE KORAN?. From your writings it appears that you?re anti Semitic and a supporter of Fundamentalism so why not take the plunge and send for your free copy.

Vil drepe jøder

Muhammad henvender seg imidlertid ikke bare til muslimer i Norge, men også til ikke-muslimer.

- For å gjøre det er vi nødt til å overbevise mennesker om deres ansvar og plikter.

Vårt fokus er på å invitere ikke-muslimer til islam og å få muslimer til å underkaste seg islam. Men også å bruke islam som et politisk system å leve etter.

Vil drepe jøder means Will kill Jews.

The article states in part that he?s looking for converts in Norway to establish a Fundamental Islamic State.

Link:
http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=4749071


Not only does he want to establish an Islamic State in Norway but also throughout Europe. By the way Sweden is part of Europe. I guess you think that you can come on an Israeli forum and convince people that they are overreacting when they see the EU as a major threat to the security of Israel.

It?s well established that funds are raised throughout Europe to pay for the destruction of Israel and to further their Fundamentalist cause.

[Northlander]

grrr, I just replyed mediocrates one long answer but it vanished because of this part 2 thing. You wouldnt probably want to hear it anyway cause it was only this bla bla bla that the west has throughout history been more about power and control and violence and force than muslim countries. and then an explanation why :)

Face it. The EU is scared shitless that a screaming horde of Klingons is going to come over the hill at them. And they will give up and sell out anyone they have to to avoid that possibility. They did it in the Balkans, they're doing it to Israel. Now I wonder what they'll do if it happens in Turkey. I suspect that suddenly, NATO membership won't mean that much anymore and they'll reach a 'negotiated' settlement all the time claiming that it can't get involved in Turkey's 'internal politics'.

this i gladly reply again.
get real! Its not us screaming about the threat of islam.
Last time Iran invaded germany it was horrible, maybe we should go to defcon 5!!!

how can arabs in palestine, wanting their own country turn into a horde threatening europe?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
how can arabs in palestine, wanting their own country turn into a horde threatening europe?
You're probably right. It would be impossible for Arabs to ever threaten Europe:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,653302,00.html


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1802000/1802859.stm

[Northlander]

Face it. The EU is scared shitless that a screaming horde of Klingons is going to come over the hill at them. And they will give up and sell out anyone they have to to avoid that possibility. They did it in the Balkans, they're doing it to Israel. Now I wonder what they'll do if it happens in Turkey. I suspect that suddenly, NATO membership won't mean that much anymore and they'll reach a 'negotiated' settlement all the time claiming that it can't get involved in Turkey's 'internal politics'.

well, I was wrong. LamplighterM is scared shitless.
Im telling you guys when norway has fallen i will join the underground resistence and fight back. the only problem is that then the new islamistic government will call us terrorists and the world will hate us.

[NewsGuy]

In general, though, Europe, and especially countries like France, Norway and Greece are considered to act as the political arm of Arab and Islamic terror organizations.

These countries also serve as diplomatic fig-leaves for rogue countries which support, finance and house terrorist organizations, many of whom are even found on the EU's own terrorism list.

[Mediocrates]

"how can arabs in palestine, wanting their own country turn into a horde threatening europe?"

In the way that the EU cringes in mortal terror at the possibility that their stable ageing way of life of the welfare state will be upset by petroterrorism, reverse economic sanctions and a latent fear of the guest workers and arab immigrants you already house. Perhaps for the 4.5 million Norweigans of whom 86% are Lutherans that's not an issue but in other countries with diversity it is. You have what 45,000 muslims in the whole country? You have about 1000 (one thousand) Jews in the whole country for comparison's sake. Easy to see why you see no problem. Both groups are nearly invisible.

[Mediocrates]

I point you to this piece on MSN about the Ugly European re: fear of the horde;

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2064776


here's a juicy -

"Anti-Muslim sentiment was already widespread in Europe, but 9/11 reinforced the Ugly Europeans' bigoted message: Muslims cause crime. Muslims cause unrest. Muslims must go. The effect was immediate: The terrorist attacks and the discovery that Hamburg was a haven of al-Qaida activity gave Judge Merciless (real name: Ronald Schill)—and his attacks on "imported unemployment and imported crime" from Muslim countries—a more than 5 percent bump in the polls. The anti-Muslim electoral wave had begun.

Much of what the Ugly Europeans propose isn't out of the mainstream of American political debate: Get tough on crime, promote Christian family values, reform the welfare state, curtail immigration. But the Ugly Europeans' policy inclinations on all those issues stem not from political ideology but from prejudice. How to get tough on crime? Get rid of the Muslim immigrants who are causing it. Why reform the welfare state? Because the Muslims are sucking us dry. Why promote Christian values? Because the Muslim invaders threaten to drown out our faith. Why curtail immigration? Because Muslims cannot assimilate into Western European cultures."



Yet strangely all the gloom and doom sayers predicted a tidal wave of anti Arab anti muslim violence in the US in the wake of 9/11. ---- uh but it didn't happen.

[Northlander]

In general, though, Europe, and especially countries like France, Norway and Greece are considered to act as the political arm of Arab and Islamic terror organizations.

Is that true? In Israel? I get the impression that alot of people here on this forum really hates europe. I dont get it. I know its a infected issue all this but I really think you have a wrong picture about it. The support of the palestinians are really not based on anti-semitism. Sometimes maybe but not generally. As far as the support in stockholm, sweden, i can guarantee its not so.
here the ones hating the jews are the same guys hating the arabs. they hates about everybody thats not 2 meters long and blond. the worst thing you would hear in media or on the streets are "sharon murderer" Anything rasist or anything anti-semitic would make people including myself act directly. Im not against israel as a nation but I get provoked by some things said here on the forum aswell. Prejudices and rasism cant be tolerated from neither part.
Its an israeli forum and its not my intention to provoke anyone here. Do you really think any sane ordinary european wants to live under islamistic rule? Do you think we hate jews from birth?
do you think we would let muslim propaganda take control over our media etc? Ask yourselves that question and then try to think what makes us react against israel. I also react even harder against Turkey. And MUCH not even comparable more, against the talibans and so on. And russia. We are not against Israel and even less against israelis. We are against the politics, the unnecessary violence and the almost rasist treatment of many palestinians. I get attacked for being anti-semistic. Its almost laughable when you think about the clashes we have had here with newnazis and stuff.

[Northlander]

I dont really get your point Mediocrates. yes some europeans are scared shitless. But not only about islam. they are scared shitless about anything. The links were interesting, thanks by the way.
Europe has even more people than USA and no national identity. Its hard to speak of europe as one country as we do here.
But the threats people see generally I think are internal. Segregation and economical problems. I dont agree there is a great fear about islam. Its some nationalists in a few countries that fear that.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
Do you really think any sane ordinary european wants to live under islamistic rule? Do you think we hate jews from birth?
do you think we would let muslim propaganda take control over our media etc? Ask yourselves that question and then try to think what makes us react against israel. I also react even harder against Turkey. And MUCH not even comparable more, against the talibans and so on. And russia. We are not against Israel and even less against israelis. We are against the politics, the unnecessary violence and the almost rasist treatment of many palestinians. I get attacked for being anti-semistic. Its almost laughable when you think about the clashes we have had here with newnazis and stuff.
No, I do not think that most Europeans are anti-Semitic. But there is a huge difference between most Europeans and their governments.

Despite 5 decades of mass-murder of Israelis and worldwide Islamic terrorism, I cannot recall even a single anti-Arab UN resolution ever, so far as I know. Yet the Europeans are always at the forefront of maybe dozens of anti-Israel rsolutions. I would be curious to know how do you explain that?

Let's assume for a moment that Europeans such as yourself are morally and philosophically in support of a second Palestinian state. Fine. You know very well that such a state has already been offered to the Palestinians on 97% of the pre-1967 borders, and that has been rejected by Palestinians.

Why do you not now blame the Palestinians who reject the Israeli offer of a second Palestinian state and instead proceed to butcher Israeli kindergarten children?

And even now, I suppose that you support the investigative lynching of Israel over the Jenin battle against terrorism, because you want to uncover the truth, right? So my question is why do you not support a similar investigation into all Arab countries' support of terrorism and financing of terrorist crimes against humanity?

I mean, for a man who seeks the truth and opposes war crimes and crimes against humanity, you surely would want to investigate and place an economic and cultural isolation on the Arab regimes, no?

[L@mplighterM]

Quote from Northlander:

Is that true? In Israel? I get the impression that alot of people here on this forum really hates europe. I dont get it. I know its a infected issue all this but I really think you have a wrong picture about it. The support of the palestinians are really not based on anti-semitism. Sometimes maybe but not generally. As far as the support in stockholm, sweden, i can guarantee its not so.


Guarantee? Gee I have Northlanders guarantee that Sweden is a pure country free from all Islamic Fundamentalism. Danes are alarmists because they have figured out that Muslims are going to outnumber them in a generation or two. Danes are alarmists because they finally recognize the dangers of Islam.

Just because there are Fundamentalist leaders throughout Europe that openly advocate killing Jews, burning or defacing their synagogues, verbally and physically harassing Jews everyone that even considers this anymore than isolated incidents are acting hysterical.

I haven't decided whether you're hired to whitewash Fundamentalism or you're naive. Judging by your long posts I would have to say that it excludes the latter.

Trust you? Never I wouldn't trust you anymore than the devil himself.

And in the end it dosen't matter what you think.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Mediocrates Yet strangely all the gloom and doom sayers predicted a tidal wave of anti Arab anti muslim violence in the US in the wake of 9/11. ---- uh but it didn't happen.
That is because we are voyeurs who take great satisfaction in living through the experiences of others. :D

[JustPat]

Originally posted by NewsGuy Despite 5 decades of mass-murder of Israelis and worldwide Islamic terrorism, I cannot recall even a single anti-Arab UN resolution ever, so far as I know. Yet the Europeans are always at the forefront of maybe dozens of anti-Israel rsolutions. I would be curious to know how do you explain that?I don't think either Iran or Iraq would agree. To say that UN resolutions against Israel are a sign of anti-semitism may be to see this as something that it is not. Are the current sanctions against Iraq "anti-Iraqi"? Are the resolutions calling for the warring factions in Georgia to settle their dispute "anti-Georgian"? No, obviously not.

Let us recognize the UN for what it is, a howling dog in a filthy kennel, always miserable, never satisfied. Face it, they are driven to always looking for a way to justify their budget. It truly has no power accept that allowed by those who choose to agree with and abide by its resolutions. It cannot truly enforce its rules. It must solicit the armies of those who share its agenda in order to force its opinion on others. If it truly had power, Israel would not have the strength to resist it. The UN is but a figure head used by those who do not want to be seen as the bad guy in delicate situations.


Originally posted by NewsGuy Let's assume for a moment that Europeans such as yourself are morally and philosophically in support of a second Palestinian state. Fine. You know very well that such a state has already been offered to the Palestinians on 97% of the pre-1967 borders, and that has been rejected by Palestinians.
Why do you not now blame the Palestinians who reject the Israeli offer of a second Palestinian state and instead proceed to butcher Israeli kindergarten children?An excellent question! :)


Originally posted by NewsGuy And even now, I suppose that you support the investigative lynching of Israel over the Jenin battle against terrorism, because you want to uncover the truth, right? So my question is why do you not support a similar investigation into all Arab countries' support of terrorism and financing of terrorist crimes against humanity?

I mean, for a man who seeks the truth and opposes war crimes and crimes against humanity, you surely would want to investigate and place an economic and cultural isolation on the Arab regimes, no? Another good point!!

Here is where the impression of anti-semitism is rooted. Many cry for the investigation and condemnation of Israel, (takeo are you listening?) but where is the outcry for the same investigation and condemnation against the Paslestinians?

Are those of world leadership so duped as to believe that Israel is a big bully and the poor, pathetic PA is just the little whipped pup?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by JustPat
I don't think either Iran or Iraq would agree. To say that UN resolutions against Israel are a sign of anti-semitism may be to see this as something that it is not. Are the current sanctions against Iraq "anti-Iraqi"? Are the resolutions calling for the warring factions in Georgia to settle their dispute "anti-Georgian"? No, obviously not.
I understand your point. In the case of Iran and Iraq, neither were ever sanctioned because of their role in financing, supporting and directing the deliberate mass murder of innocent Israelis.

That's why I say that within the Arab/Israeli conflict, the UN has never, so far as I know, passed even a single resolution against an Arab state, nor against the PA for their terrorism against innocent Israelis.

The other point you raise is whether the UN actions are anti-Semitic. In general, I am not someone who cries anti-Semitism whenever someone else disagrees with Ariel Sharon's policies. And, up until recently, I would have thought that perhaps the UN policies were just anti-Israel and pro-terrorist rather than specifically anti-Semitic.

But, taking into account the discriminatory resolutions repeatedly passed by the UN, (which never condemn Palestinian terrorism), in addition to the recent anti-Semitic UN conference in Durban, I would have to conclude from the totality of the circumstances that there is a good deal of de facto anti-Semitism in the UN.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander


well, I was wrong. LamplighterM is scared shitless.
Im telling you guys when norway has fallen i will join the underground resistence and fight back. the only problem is that then the new islamistic government will call us terrorists and the world will hate us.

So you really think this is all about being scared?

Extremely concerned is more like it. If you think that I?m here on this forum fighting Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism because of myself you?re totally wrong. I would gladly give my life without hesitation if I thought that would bring it to an end. I?m here to point out the truth based on reality and also for the love that comes from the people I care for.

When I see the innocent beings being murdered by Islamic religious madness it makes me angry and sad. When I witness the indifference by many individuals in power and their support for death trough terrorism it makes me angry.

Perhaps you believe that this is a sole issue of land but you?re wrong. All you have to do is listen to Arafat?s speeches and it should be obvious that he?s a religious madman. Some of his funding comes from Islamic Fundamentalists throughout the world and he?s worth millions if not billions. His family lives in style while the people that he?s elected to serve live in poverty.

I don?t deal in speculation or fantasy just cold hard facts and I?m not trying to mislead anyone like you are.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by NewsGuy ... within the Arab/Israeli conflict, the UN has never, so far as I know, passed even a single resolution against an Arab state, nor against the PA for their terrorism against innocent Israelis. I agree, but when we paint with too wide a brush we often make a mess. Let's address the root question, why has the UN taken no action against those who so willingly and violently seek to destroy Israel and her people. Why has the US stood idly by and let the UN file resolution after resolution against the nation that has been unquestioningly her greatest ally?


Originally posted by NewsGuy The other point you raise is whether the UN actions are anti-Semitic. In general, I am not someone who cries anti-Semitism whenever someone else disagrees with Ariel Sharon's policies. And, up until recently, I would have thought that perhaps the UN policies were just anti-Israel and pro-terrorist rather than specifically anti-Semitic.

But, taking into account the discriminatory resolutions repeatedly passed by the UN, (which never condemn Palestinian terrorism), in addition to the recent anti-Semitic UN conference in Durban, I would have to conclude from the totality of the circumstances that there is a good deal of de facto anti-Semitism in the UN. Looking at the make up of the UN, a case could easily be made for the anti-semitic influences, but that does not address the questions of those whose silence gives credence to the anti-semitic resolutions.

Those who provide the power of the UN should put an end to the bias and hold the Palestinians accountable for their actions, as they claim to do for the Israelis. But that will not happen. Why? Because politics at the international level is devoid of moral regulation. If we truly knew the deals going on in the back rooms of the world by our illustrious governments, we would likely see that anti-semitism is considered an acceptable position as long as I can get what I want out of the deal.

Where is Moses when you need him?

[Northlander]

Guarantee? Gee I have Northlanders guarantee that Sweden is a pure country free from all Islamic Fundamentalism. Danes are alarmists because they have figured out that Muslims are going to outnumber them in a generation or two. Danes are alarmists because they finally recognize the dangers of Islam. Just because there are Fundamentalist leaders throughout Europe that openly advocate killing Jews, burning or defacing their synagogues, verbally and physically harassing Jews everyone that even considers this anymore than isolated incidents are acting hysterical. I haven't decided whether you're hired to whitewash Fundamentalism or you're naive. Judging by your long posts I would have to say that it excludes the latter.

Trust you? Never I wouldn't trust you anymore than the devil himself.

And in the end it dosen't matter what you think.



LamplighterM are you danish? Is this some kind of modern hatered against the swedes for taking parts of your country?

First! If you think it doesnt matter what swedes or other europeans think about this muslim problem you are naive. My oppinion are by no means irrelevant and nor are other europeans as both denmark and israel will find out. As far as Im concerned we could have a civil war in europe over this issue in 50 years from now and that would be because of people talking against freedom of religion and because of rasist politicians in countries as denmark and others. At best it will break the union. Its horrible to see that even USA is treating their muslims better and more equal.
Yes there are some fundamentalists in sweden Im sure but of those not many are muslims if I put it that way. The jews in europe are not threatened this way but Im starting to feel that if any more countries follows denmark we will have a situation like 50 years ago and this time against muslims. Cant you see that your aguements about being outnumbered in 2 generations have been said before. Maybe we need lebensraum too????
You only talk about burnings of synagogs. Are you even aware that mosques have been burnt?
Im not arab, not muslim, dont defend fundamentalism. But I defend innocent people that have been given to opportunity to live in europe mainly because they have choosen to flee from fundamentalist islamistic countries. I will also oppose all rasist propaganda in europe wheter its in denamark or austria.

You will not trust me you say. It doesnt really matter. You and your equals will lose power in denmark and you will never gain any in france. Poorly educated rasists in whitetrash suburbs can never win in the long run. You really provoke me as Im sure was your attention. If you really think europe will get muslim you are even more stupid than I thought was possible. On the other hand, people once belived that jews were a great threat from within so maybe you are not that stupid. This time we wont get any support from america since they are on your side so when that day comes we will have to deal with this fanatical-rightside nazi BS outselves.

[L@mplighterM]

Bold posted by Northlander:


LamplighterM are you danish? Is this some kind of modern hatered against the swedes for taking parts of your country?

Hate?


I present facts gleaned from the media and somehow you think I?m a racist Dane.

I will also oppose all rasist propaganda in europe wheter its in denamark or austria.

There?s no racist propaganda coming from me just cold hard facts. When you start comparing Austria to Denmark you're comparing apples and oranges. The Danes had a legitimate reason for electing a government like they did. That's called democracy and there people cast votes and elect politicians based on choice.

Actually I would like to see the EU dissolved for a variety of reasons and this to me couldn't come soon enough. An anti Semitic country like Belgium shouldn't be allowed to call the shots or threaten democratic nations. The EU commission in Brussels is appointed not elected and I might add it's anti Semitic in my opinion and pro Islamic Fundamentalist.

[Northlander]

My god! You really belive that dont you? You really belive that the EU commision is pro Islamic Fundamentalist?
Personally Im sure the union will look after european interests only and that will not benefit the rest of the world. Thats my reason for not liking the union. Now I have surely heard it all!! haha I rest my case. Islamistic EU commision.

[L@mplighterM]

All I can say is screw the EU Commission in Belgium they don't have the right to dictate world politics. Should an appointed body that obviously doesn’t speak for all of Europe have the right to question any duly elected government? I don’t think so.

The EU sprang from the Common Market and is just a ploy for larger countries to exercise their economic powers over smaller ones.

In the case of Haider I happened to agree with their points but still it should be up to individual countries to choose their course of action against a country like Austria. The EU Commission chastised Czechoslovakia because it came to the defense of Israel. They have to speak with one voice or else face the wrath of the Commission. I sure don’t view that as democracy in action. There’s plenty of indication that they are heavily biased in favor of Islam.

I’m willing to alter my position if you can provide an URL to show me that they have chastised France and Chirac for their inaction against the dramatic rise in anti Semitism. On the contrary they have called for boycotts and/or sanctions against Israel.

If you strongly oppose Israel it indicates that you support Islam and all that goes with it. I make no distinction between Arafat and Islamic Fundamentalists and as far as I’m concerned they are one and the same.

The spilt blood of Jews is on the hands of Arafat, Islam and the EU Commission.

In the end all I have to say that if you want to support ball shavers its your business and wherever I place my allegiance is mine.

[Northlander]

If you strongly oppose Israel it indicates that you support Islam and all that goes with it.

There it is once again. The usual comment that if you are against israels occupation you are islamist.
Have I said I support everything that goes with islam?
I support a free palestine state next to israel, not a islamistic europe which will never happen anyway.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander


There it is once again. The usual comment that if you are against israels occupation you are islamist.
Have I said I support everything that goes with islam?
I support a free palestine state next to israel, not a islamistic europe which will never happen anyway.

What initiated the latest conflict was an attack during the Passover Holidays. The Israeli Government had its hand outstretched in peace. During the cease fire negotiations were to have taken place to establish an end to the dispute.

Have you ever bothered to read the Oslo II Accord, Mitchell Accord or the Tenet Plan? As far as I?m concerned they kill UN Resolution 242 and it becomes moot.

Look any fool knows that the Palestinians will eventually get their State if and when they are willing to sit down and negotiate.

I wouldn?t bet my bottom dollar on anything. An Islamic Europe is a real possibility unless strong actions are taken to show fanatics that they are simply not wanted in Europe. That?s all I want! If the Muftis preach hatred as the way of life in individual countries send them and their followers packing.

[L@mplighterM]

This is how Arafat negotiates:





Arafat Already Backing Down from Agreement with USA
(IsraelNN.com) PA leader Yasser Arafat has already begun backing out of the agreement with the United States by which six persons are be handed over to the custody of US and UK agents to ensure they serve prison sentences.

Arafat is required to turn over four PFLP terrorists involved in the assassination of Rechavam Ze'evi, as well as Fuad Shubaki and PFLP leader Ahmed Sadat, responsible for the Karin-A weapons freighter. Arafat has already announced the Karin-A suspects would not be turned over to US custody.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=22635


Take him out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Mediocrates]

To be fair though our own State Department has the PFLP on the official designation as a terrorist organization. If this, and the apparent indifference to the deaths of over 40 American citizens in Israel the State Department has for its own rules then we can expect little of from any diplomatic solution. And BTW the Iraqis should be laughing themselves to sleep right about now. If we can't even back up our own demand to extradite 6 known terrorists from a place we can find - hell we can even talk to them, then the whole deal with doing this that or the other with Iraq or any other country on the 'axis-o-evil' is a sham. We might as well lift the Iraqi embargo and build a theme park there since whatever we say is meaningless even to us.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
As far as Im concerned we could have a civil war in europe over this issue in 50 years from now and that would be because of people talking against freedom of religion and because of rasist politicians in countries as denmark and others. At best it will break the union. Its horrible to see that even USA is treating their muslims better and more equal.
I don't understand the last remark about USA, but anyway...

IMO, if there will be war and violence in the EU involving Muslims, it will be because the EU were too cowardly and hypocritical to take real action against violent Islamic fundamentalists who use Europe as a political haven for terrorism.

[Northlander]

My meaning was that its probably safer to be muslim in USA if more countries than austria and denmark elects halvnazi governments, than in europe. Its alot of BS here about our children will speak arabic in schools soon and stuff. Real 1939 politics. Since the USA has probably done more than any country to make the muslim world a hell to live in i find it ironic that still your muslims are more accepted over there than they are in denmark.
But Israel is doing alot for the muslims situation over here. Most people understand the injustices when they see what israel gets away with.

[Mediocrates]

I guess that cuts two ways as when muslims toss off phrases like holocaust as if they knew 1% of the meaning of that word. Maybe they could all be forced to wear a yellow crescent on their lapels for a while, be forced from their jobs, have to change their names and so forth and then they could get back to us on how oppressed they USED to be.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
But Israel is doing alot for the muslims situation over here. Most people understand the injustices when they see what israel gets away with.
Most of the people you are referring to care nothing for the crimes against humanity and the injustice done to the innocent Israeli victims of Arab terrorism.

Most of "those" people, sit silently when massacres of Islaei children happen, but get very upset if Israel retaliates for those massacres.

[Northlander]

yeah, beacause its different. you can kill the terrorists in self-defence fine, but retaliation is not ok by a state that wants to be treated as a democratic state. I dont think its ok when USA or russia does it either. If you dont want to be compared to countries like your neighbours Iraq and syria dont behave like them!

[JustPat]

Northlander, did you miss NewsGuy's point completely?
"Most of the people you are referring to care nothing for the crimes against humanity and the injustice done to the innocent Israeli victims of Arab terrorism."
If they actually treated Israel with the same supposed concern for human rights no one would kick. Instead, Israel can burn to the ground with her people locked in their houses and HRW and her cohorts would say little to nothing. Let one Palestinian get a hangnail and they are all over Israel for not showing proper concern. Is this justice?

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Northlander Most people understand the injustices when they see what israel gets away with. Must be a farm around here 'cause the manure is getting deep.
How about what the Palestinians "get away with?" No government but the US has come to Israel's aid and offered to stand by her in the face of the terroristic bombings that have been going on. A little reality rationale, please.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Northlander
yeah, beacause its different. you can kill the terrorists in self-defence fine, but retaliation is not ok by a state that wants to be treated as a democratic state. I dont think its ok when USA or russia does it either. If you dont want to be compared to countries like your neighbours Iraq and syria dont behave like them! How is that different? I thought the point was that the Palestinians were seeking recognition as one of these democratic states you are talking about. Should they be allowed such status while fostering, encouraging, and continuing such behavior?

[takeo]

thanks northlander, you are doing my usual job, and better than me. I have nothing to add to your comments.

[takeo]

"Must be a farm around here 'cause the manure is getting deep.
How about what the Palestinians "get away with?" No government but the US has come to Israel's aid and offered to stand by her in the face of the terroristic bombings that have been going on. A little reality rationale, please."

Are you kidding? Without the US-aid Israel would not have the greatest army in the region.

Your comment however would be totally logical on the condition that israel was not violating 10's of UN-resolutions and would not be illegally occupying territories and would not have been slaughtering Palestinians in refugee-camps...
However it's quite logical, even for the US, that a country engaging in such policy will not live in total peace and tranquility...

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
"Must be a farm around here 'cause the manure is getting deep.
How about what the Palestinians "get away with?" No government but the US has come to Israel's aid and offered to stand by her in the face of the terroristic bombings that have been going on. A little reality rationale, please."

Are you kidding? Without the US-aid Israel would not have the greatest army in the region.

Your comment however would be totally logical on the condition that israel was not violating 10's of UN-resolutions and would not be illegally occupying territories and would not have been slaughtering Palestinians in refugee-camps...
However it's quite logical, even for the US, that a country engaging in such policy will not live in total peace and tranquility...


Animals get slaughtered but people with AK-47's, M-16's, etc.........do not.

[takeo]

so armed colonisers and israeli military do not get slaughtered.
palestinian civilians burryed under their houses or shot in the back and children throwing stones however do get slaughtered(as well as girls sleeping in their beds and people going to a pizzeria)

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander
There it is once again. The usual comment that if you are against israels occupation you are islamist.
I don't think it makes you an Islamist, but if you are not pro-Israel you can be categorized as either indifferent, or anti-Israel.

You post here often enough, so that takes away the indifferent label. Does this make you anti-Semitic?

I don't know you well enough yet to make that statement, however I have yet to hear you say anything possitive about Israel. I know not everyone in Israel is not Jewish and that it is a secular state, but one has to question what you stand for since you are so obviously not pro-Israel.

I would have to say you were against the Israeli government and its current practices, but you would have to against the Israeli people, because what is happening is popular in a democratic country.

[Northlander]

Originally posted by takeo
However it's quite logical, even for the US, that a country engaging in such policy will not live in total peace and tranquility...

thanks takeo.
there you have it guys. I get the impression that you are surprised that this happens to Israel and the world apart from US dont react. Its not because of anti-semitism, its because of ISRAELS behaviour.

Justpat

"Most of the people you are referring to care nothing for the crimes against humanity and the injustice done to the innocent Israeli victims of Arab terrorism."
Well I think they do. But how much use is it to explain how we feel about arab terrorists blowing up schoolbuses here? I think you guys know exactly how disgusting that is. But you are blinded by your belives of violent retaliation. I think that is the most obvious conclusion to be drawn by your posts. That every civilian that dies on the other side is a price they have to pay for those other guys that are using terror.

Thrud
Im not pro-israel of course and Im not indifferent so if that makes my anti-israel its your opinion. Im not neutral maybe but my opinions can still change. I read and listen and try to learn about how people see things. I listen to what you say here even though I feel different. Even to LamplighterM whos opinions I find extreme and provocative.
Im NOT anti-semitic thats for sure. If you by anti-israel means that im against the state of israel you are not completely right. I think Israel should exist but it must act as any other democratic country. Dont just keep comparing to Iraq or Syria.
What I stand for?
Well, I stand for a world where USA does not alone choose what is right or wrong. When Israel attacks and occupie its ok and when Iraq does its not. I dont trust the americans to have the moral it takes to make the world a nice peaceful place for all. They only sees to american interests and they are the cause for most of the problems in the world today. They have solved a few too like in afghanistan but as usual it involves dead civilians and they were part of the problem to begin with so... Its nothing against americans personally it could have been brits or russians as well but I opose the idea of the superior west using force to get the rest of the world to comply.
With those arguements I could work for a european military attack on israel to make them follow the geneva conventions and the UN resolutions. I stand for the idea that Israeli and US politics are violent and injust. It could have been other countries but now its not. That does not mean I support Iraq or islamic regimes. I dont. Maybe I should throw in a post about arab aggression too but for what use since you do that just fine yourself.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Northlander ... how much use is it to explain how we feel about arab terrorists blowing up schoolbuses here? I think you guys know exactly how disgusting that is. But you are blinded by your belives of violent retaliation. I think that is the most obvious conclusion to be drawn by your posts. That every civilian that dies on the other side is a price they have to pay for those other guys that are using terror. In this, from my perspective, you are both right and wrong. By not decrying the violence against the Israelis you become one whose silence is interpretted as approval, especially inlight of this BB. By not decrying the violence against Israel and stumping for the Palestinians you certify that opinion. You are right that there is an opinion that the death of innocents is the price you pay for terror being meted out to Israel. Without retribution, terrorism becomes tyranny.
Let's face it, the world is two-faced on the issue of retribution. "Operation Enduring Freedom" is heralded by the same people who criticize Israel's move to rout out their foes. But there is really no difference.
In 1986 I was aboard a US Submarine in the Med when we received orders to take out Kadafy. The Italians cheered our actions. Arafat's behavior is no different, but where is their support now?

Originally posted by Northlander ... What I stand for?
Well, I stand for a world where USA does not alone choose what is right or wrong. When Israel attacks and occupie its ok and when Iraq does its not. I dont trust the americans to have the moral it takes to make the world a nice peaceful place for all. They only sees to american interests and they are the cause for most of the problems in the world today. They have solved a few too like in afghanistan but as usual it involves dead civilians and they were part of the problem to begin with so... Its nothing against americans personally it could have been brits or russians as well but I opose the idea of the superior west using force to get the rest of the world to comply.Again, some right, some wrong.
You are right that the US looks out for only its interests. No other nation is guilty of such things so rue the ugly Americans (he said with his tongue buried deep in his cheek). Welcome to world politics.
To blame America for "most of the problems in the world" is a big stretch, for anyone. US the cause of starvation in Ethiopia, the cause for human rights violations in China, the cause of political corruption in Columbia, the cause of despotism in Iraq ...
come now, sounds a bit bigoted to me. The US has the ability to influence. When our influence agrees with your politics we are heroes. When you are not the beneficiary we will be dogs. Sadly, much of the world danes the values we support and thus, the ugly Americans. The shame of it all, every nation could have the prosperity and freedom we have.

Originally posted by Northlander ... With those arguements I could work for a european military attack on israel to make them follow the geneva conventions and the UN resolutions. I stand for the idea that Israeli and US politics are violent and injust. It could have been other countries but now its not. That does not mean I support Iraq or islamic regimes. I dont. Maybe I should throw in a post about arab aggression too but for what use since you do that just fine yourself. But, if you voiced equal disdain for the Palestinian aggression, at least you would not be painted as anti-semitic. You could claim to be, like Fox News, "fair and balanced."

[Northlander]

just pat
alot you say makes some sense. I take back "most of the problems in the world" but still its my strong belive that americas persuit of power has cost us all alot. Its more obvious in these days of terrorism. And I could argue some more about the Iraq despot in which I feel USA has some guilt.

In 1986 I was aboard a US Submarine in the Med when we received orders to take out Kadafy. The Italians cheered our actions. Arafat's behavior is no different, but where is their support now?
Im no supporter of khaddafi and I was young during your attacks but you must understand that it has become just one in a endless row of carrierbased bombings in many non-american eyes. Even when US has legitimate reasons and really belives it acts in defence the previos less thought-through actions still is in alot of europeans minds. And its my guess thats the case with many other nations as well. Thats one reason for the italians lame support for Israel and USA now I think.
Its harder to see the americans as heros these days than it was 50 years ago.
Alot of people basically laugh when the rethorics are heard before your military operations so even in times when they really should make sense they are dismissed as just another way of fooling the world about the real reasons, be it oil, money, create allies or whatever. Thats your problem as a superpower.
So when you go after saddam soon alot of people will think "oil".
No one likes saddam. He is obviously crazy. I realize Israels feels about him. He is even a threat for the arab neighbours as well.
For the sake of "the people" of Iraq I wish to see him gone. The sanctions against iraq has not hurt Saddam just the poor people, especially children.
When it comes to Israel vs palestinians my views are different than for example Israel vs syria. Maybe Im not fait and balanced when it comes to the palestinians. I have clearly taken the palestine part morally therefore its different. Thats not the case with the other conflicts Israel might get into.
this problem was created maybe the same time the state of Israel was created. Maybe even when the british got there in the first time. I support the intifada. Its a normal reaction for a people when they are treated unbelivably unfair. The intifada is Israels own fault. When it comes to attacks on civilians I dont support them at all. Since I give the palestinians a moral right to fight back against "the aggressor" I could use the very common term "collateral damage" when speaking about dead civilian israelis. Something like "if israel hadnt done this and that, then they would not suffer now". But I dont!! I STILL feel dead civilians are not legitimate no matter what is the reason. Thats the moral I feel USA and Israel dont have in their politics. Even here in this forum some people express that thoughts. A kind of "let them all suffer for some peoples actions" mentality.
I have said it before and I say in again. DONT lower yourself to their level. For every dead civil palestinian IDF are as bad as any terrorist organisation. the problem here is that there has been higher casualties on the palestinians side. People dies in war I know that but Im on the palestinian side here. Not with the palestinians wanting the destruction of Israel but with the ones feeling threatend by Israeli soldiers and just wanting their own state and a peaceful life. The same things most people wants be it americans, israelis or chinese.
When I complain about dead civilians on the palestine side here I get the answer, "people dies in war". When you complain about dead israelis I always says its wrong and that I think you should punish them according to international laws. I feel Im more fair and balanced. Had I not been balanced I would have shaken my shoulders and just felt that people dies in war.
Defend against terrorist attacks, its you right and obligation but dont go into palestine territory and dont kill civilians. Return occupied territories or.... people dies in war.
Same could be said to US. Dont sell weapons to dictators. Dont train fascist guerillas. Stop bombing civilians no matter what or.... people dies in war. Then you will never feel safe from anthrax or sarin or whatever. And neither will I. The time of military supremacy is coming to an end. Sooner or later the destructive capability of one single human will be to big. The palestinians have not much to lose. Israel can lose much much more. Its time to understand that its not a question of if but when you have to start to compromise. If Israel gave the majority of the palestinians as much freedom and material standards that they really felt they had something to lose they would really start to fear more conflict with israel. How do you think they would start to feel about bombings inside isreal then? They would see all those actions as a threat to everything the gained and a threat to the peace. A threat to life. Without a palestinian support the terrorists would be destroyed. Thats the only sollution in the long run. Or continue as before..

[takeo]

I voice equal disdain for palestinian violence ON INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

"You are right that the US looks out for only its interests. No other nation is guilty of such things so rue the ugly Americans (he said with his tongue buried deep in his cheek). Welcome to world politics.
To blame America for "most of the problems in the world" is a big stretch, for anyone. US the cause of starvation in Ethiopia, the cause for human rights violations in China, the cause of political corruption in Columbia, the cause of despotism in Iraq ...
come now, sounds a bit bigoted to me. The US has the ability to influence. When our influence agrees with your politics we are heroes. When you are not the beneficiary we will be dogs. Sadly, much of the world danes the values we support and thus, the ugly Americans. The shame of it all, every nation could have the prosperity and freedom we have. "

The US is of course not the cause of every problem in the world, but the cause of a lot of problems in the world anyway. (political corruption in Colombia for example will be encouraged by massive military support for such regimes). Don't tell me that the US has nothing to do with the political violence and poverty in Venezuela, with the poverty of Nicaragua or Guatemala or with the problems in Cuba...
and by the way the US has encouraged saddam Houssein in his war against Iran and supported him, nowadays they are turning this dictator to an Arab hero by their violent and baseless actions.
about Khadafi, i don't support him yet he did more for his people than the American-supported regime before him. the US can never force a country to take another policy by violence, be it Iraq or libia, unless that policy is to attack other countries of course, as was the case with afghanistan and Iraq in 1990. The uS should respect the territorial integrity of every country, and so the actions against Lybia were nothing but US state-terrorism, and i heard that those actions gave Khadafi again the internal popular support he needed to stay in power. There was never any evidence that Libia was involved in the bombing of the berlin-discotheque and if there would be the US had to proove it internationally. What would you think of foreign intervention in the internal politics of the us? No single American would accept it(even if they hate bush), so try to understand that such intervention is nowhere appreciated. Saddam has never been so popular, both in- and outside iraq, he all owns it to you guys...
the US has it's own interests and those interests are not necessarily worldpeace or stability. So the US can't be a worldcop, unless a very corrupted cop in a police-state...
I agree with what Northlander said.

[Northlander]

So the US can't be a worldcop, unless a very corrupted cop in a police-state...

:) well said Takeo. Alot of demonstrations on 1st of may in france I saw, I suppose you joined them? The traditional speach from our biggest party the socialistdemocrats was full of condemnation of israel and the other left party which I walked with had its own large palestine section. Some israelis walked with us too. This conflict is on the political agenda here now which glads me.

Its hopeful to hear views similar to my own on fascism and violence from you in france. Still alot of opposition against the new fascist/rasist winds it seems.
I saw this french lady on TV that said she was going to wear rubbergloves when she votes for Chirac. Not her kind of politician, but the thought of Le Pen....

[Belgium@EU]

As an outsider to this whole conflict, I had the opportunity to follow to new without any biases. As a European (Belgian) ofcourse you will all think am anti_israel. Well, I'm not! I'm just anti-Sharon. The Israeli's have the right to have their own state, Jews should have a homecountry where they can live peacefully, only not at the costs of other people's lifes.

Sharon has been charged in Israel for war crimes, and in my country as well. His military actions taken in Sabra and Shatillah in the 80's were were just barbaric. What he did (or didn't actually) was a crime against humanity.

So to answer, is Sharon a war criminal, YES. Israel? NO

I find it very sad that the UN-envoy did not start an investigation in Jenin. We (the rest of the world) have the right to know what was going on there.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
As an outsider to this whole conflict, I had the opportunity to follow to new without any biases. As a European (Belgian) ofcourse you will all think am anti_israel. Well, I'm not! I'm just anti-Sharon. The Israeli's have the right to have their own state, Jews should have a homecountry where they can live peacefully, only not at the costs of other people's lifes.

Sharon has been charged in Israel for war crimes, and in my country as well. His military actions taken in Sabra and Shatillah in the 80's were were just barbaric. What he did (or didn't actually) was a crime against humanity.

So to answer, is Sharon a war criminal, YES. Israel? NO

I find it very sad that the UN-envoy did not start an investigation in Jenin. We (the rest of the world) have the right to know what was going on there.

For someone that isn't anti Israel you sure sound biased. Look the Palestinians already released a statement that 56 people were killed. Half of that amount or more was most likely due to friendly fire.

[takeo]

yes, i guess most of the European views are similar on this subject, no matter if they are left- or right-wing.
vous etes un Belge francophone ou néerlandophone?
About the demonstrations in France: yes i joined them (of course) and it was very emotional to see all these people (hundred's of 1000's) against the dear friend of lompligher (actually sometimes you could see some protesters wearing t-shirts condamning his other friend as well, Sharon). It was the biggest demonstration in many years and people were shouting from their balconies to support us. Also groups representing Jewish organisations in france (some of them supporting israel) joined. I guess the majority of French people REALLY don't want a fascist as president.
Le Pen only managed to join less than 10000 people.
However i disagree with the order of my party to vote for chirac, i will stay home, as i'm sure most people will go to vote for chirac, so i don't have to torture myself and vote for this corrupted conservative. Chirac will win anyway and i thing a large part of the electorate staying home would show that the majority of French dislike both candidates.

[takeo]

"Half of that amount or more was most likely due to friendly fire. "

OK, well, if this would be true, why is israel so afraid of the investigation-commission?
Nobody will never know exactly what happened unless an international body will investigate. but all the indications seem to be heading in the direction of war-crimes...

[Belgium@EU]

Bonjour, moi je suis un flamand, donce je parle le Neerlandais. Mais je suis capable de dire quelque mots en Francais.

Vous êtes correct de dire que Le Pen est un fascist.

But to get back to the whole conflict, OK, I'm probably biased, and I do feel sympathy for the Palestinians, and I also protested against Sharon's measures he took against the PA. But i'm not an anti-semite. The only anti-semites in Europe are the Le Pen's, Haiders and Bossi's ...

[Mediocrates]

when I went to Austria the commonly stated view was "..Not us, those other people over there are the ones you want to talk to, they're the haters..."

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
"Half of that amount or more was most likely due to friendly fire. "

OK, well, if this would be true, why is israel so afraid of the investigation-commission?
Nobody will never know exactly what happened unless an international body will investigate. but all the indications seem to be heading in the direction of war-crimes...


How did we get from a massacre to war crimes? As far as I’m concerned I’ve seen no evidence of war crimes or crimes directed at the Palestinians.
I play it straight down the middle and I can assure you that not one source have had even the hint of a massacre or war crimes.

On the contrary Arafat has engaged in the systematic slaughter of civilians and property in the Middle East. His target has been innocent defenseless people.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Bonjour, moi je suis un flamand, donce je parle le Neerlandais. Mais je suis capable de dire quelque mots en Francais.

Vous êtes correct de dire que Le Pen est un fascist.

But to get back to the whole conflict, OK, I'm probably biased, and I do feel sympathy for the Palestinians, and I also protested against Sharon's measures he took against the PA. But i'm not an anti-semite. The only anti-semites in Europe are the Le Pen's, Haiders and Bossi's ...

Well at least you admitted that you’re a liar.

[Belgium@EU]

Why should I be a liar? I feel sympathy for both parties. I just think Sharon is one of the biggest stateterrorist the world has ever known. Got it, Lampboy?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Why should I be a liar? I feel sympathy for both parties. I just think Sharon is one of the biggest stateterrorist the world has ever known. Got it, Lampboy?

First Post by Belqium in bold:

As an outsider to this whole conflict, I had the opportunity to follow to new without any biases.

Second Post by Belqium:

But to get back to the whole conflict, OK, I'm probably biased, and I do feel sympathy for the Palestinians,

I?ve got nothing! You come on this thread claiming you?re not biased. In your next post you?re most likely biased.

With people like you in the EU no wonder the place is screwed up.

Where's the conviction against Sharon?

[Belgium@EU]

Well, when I first posted here I tried to be as neutral as possible. But with so many extremist voices here, somebody has to provide you guys with what the outside world thinks of you. Understand it? Outside world.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Well, when I first posted here I tried to be as neutral as possible. But with so many extremist voices here, somebody has to provide you guys with what the outside world thinks of you. Understand it? Outside world.

Well I think you tried to hide yourself like a wolf in sheep’s clothing. It didn’t take long for you to shed your pelt.

The duel world concept is interesting but weird.

By the way how do I know you’re not sitting on a potty in China?

And while we’re at it how do you know where I am? For all you know I could be at the corner of rue Is Verheyden Str and Voorziter in Brussels.

[Northlander]

because you sound like an armed jewish settler lamplighter.

They dont get it Belgium. They just want to sit inside barbedwires for generations beliveing the outside world is anti-semitic.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
They just want to sit inside barbedwires for generations beliveing the outside world is anti-semitic.
That would be difficult considering that armed Palestinian terrorists have a nasty habit of breaking into Israeli border town houses at night and shooting their 5-year old girls in their beds.

I suppose that you think the settlers are mistaken to think that their Arab neighbors are trying to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Judea and Samaria, solely because they are Jewish?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander
because you sound like an armed jewish settler lamplighter.

They dont get it Belgium. They just want to sit inside barbedwires for generations beliveing the outside world is anti-semitic.

What do you know about settlers in the West Bank?


If you believe there’s no anti Semitism in Europe you must be rather naïve

[Northlander]

there is but you dont see the difference from anti-sharonism or anti-idfism or whatever you could to call it. Its not even anti-israelism.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander
there is but you dont see the difference from anti-sharonism or anti-idfism or whatever you could to call it. Its not even anti-israelism.

I’ll tell you what your trouble is. I think ignorance is a major factor in your posts. As a matter of fact I don’t think you could put together a cohesive history of the region. Do you even think you could find Israel on a map?
I don’t think so Northlander. Further anyone that cant spell Denmark and claims to be a Swede doesn’t have credibility as far as I’m concerned.

Anyone can Yak about this and that without prior and current knowledge of facts. In other words talk is cheap.

[takeo]

Lomplighter you are not exactly the champion of facts either you know...
Voorzitter verheyden... i see you have a lot of imagination and you like Belgian soccer ;)
The nonsense you told about France and Belgium shows that you know nothing about them except from the rubbish appearing in the jerusalem post and co. (and football of course) .
actually lomplighter i have a question for you, how come that an American Jew, what you claim to be, knows Danish? huh???
And i think northlander has an extensive knowledge of the middle East, only from a different angle than you Mr. smartass.

"As far as I’m concerned I’ve seen no evidence of war crimes or crimes directed at the Palestinians.
I play it straight down the middle and I can assure you that not one source have had even the hint of a massacre or war crimes. "

You can't see what you don't want to see, ...
amnesty international said in their latest report on Jenin that there are no proofs of a massacre (but it is still possible, further investigation is needed) but that there definately happened war-crimes by the israeli side.

[L@mplighterM]

Bold posted by takeo:

Lomplighter you are not exactly the champion of facts either you know..Voorzitter verheyden... i see you have a lot of imagination and you like Belgian soccer The nonsense you told about France and Belgium shows that you know nothing about them except from the rubbish appearing in the jerusalem post and co. (and football of course) .actually lomplighter i have a question for you, how come that an American Jew, what you claim to be, knows Danish? huh??? And i think northlander has an extensive knowledge of the middle East, only from a different angle than you Mr. smartass.

Actually you misunderstood my post about being in Belgium. Read it again!

I laid no claim to be anything on this forum except to the fact that I'm a hardcore atheist. This is a bilingual household we all read different languages. Russian, Latin, French (not fluently), Spanish, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Mandarin (not fluently), Italian(not fluently) and a couple more.
So if takeo is on a fishing expedition he might as well give up. I'm Lomplighter to you and the rest is classified information.

What are you so concerned about Northlander's posts for your own contains enough Islamic Fundamentalists propaganda.

[Belgium@EU]

Well, it you would know some Dutch, you would never adopt such a name. After all, "lomp" in Dutch means "stupid". :D

[Mediocrates]

http://www.progressive.org/webex/wx040302.html


I was very disheartened by this.

Here are some quotes:

"Suicide bombings are utterly inexcusable, utterly unjustifiable. The wanton killing of innocent people, and the celebration of that killing, should offend every moral conscience. They certainly offend mine.


And then Ariel Sharon responded in a way that is guaranteed to maximize the feelings of resentment, helplessness, and rage that wire the suicide bombings.


Could Sharon do anything more humiliating to Yasser Arafat?"

so murder is inexcusable blah blah blah BUT "Could Sharon do anything more humiliating to Yasser Arafat?" - that is the REAL evil.

Next was this:

"Now I'm prepared to believe that Arafat is more Mugabe than Mandela, but Arafat is the leader of the Palestinians. Only he has the legitimacy to sign a meaningful peace accord."


I almost cried when I read this. The Progressive left is prepared to accept someone they themselves believes is a Mugabe because he 'elected' himself to the job. Every dictator from Stalin to Pinochet 'was elected..'

[takeo]

Arafat WAS elected in an election everyone could participate...
And one day YOU will have to accept Arafat as the leader of a neighbouring state too, unless you want to organise an own anti-palestinian terror-organisation with some other ultra's.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
Arafat WAS elected in an election everyone could participate...
And one day YOU will have to accept Arafat as the leader of a neighbouring state too, unless you want to organise an own anti-palestinian terror-organisation with some other ultra's.

*LOL*

[Mediocrates]

I don't HAVE to accept anything. And neither does the rest of the world once they see what an ineffective 'non wartime' leadership the PA and its thugs provides. You will see that peace or war - will make no difference in the day to day lives of Palestinians.

[takeo]

I think it will make an enormous difference...
anyway as long as israel don't give them that chance we'll never know and the war will go on...

[Northlander]

and the war will go on. Yes, Im starting to think thats the general idea. As long as IDF can go in to city after city and destroy the infrastructure of PA we wont see any progress. Saw pictures of the cultural ministry of PA after IDF had been there. Nice job!
All the computers where crashed. The harddrives had been taken.
They had smeared ****, excuse my language, all over the rooms. Humiliating stuff like that. On a department that really is important for the infrastructure of the terrorists!!! yeah right. The educational ministry and health ministry is also destroyed.
This is just planned destuction of the infrastructure of the PA.
Im sure now that all this is just excuses for going into area after area and destroy stuff. Also when you see how many weapons the palestinians still have you cant help to wonder how incompetent the IDF really are? Cant find any weapons and terrorists. Behaving like animals and razing houses. Kills civilians.
I belive HRW when they say no massacre did not occur in Jenin but also when they say there was warcrimes. Man in wheelchair shot in the back and drived over by an APC. Nice! And dont give me BS about hisbollah etc, IDF is supposed to be defenders of a democratic state, nothing else.
Now it will be even harder for PA to accomplish anything. Harder to stop terrorists, harder to educate children etc. Then religion and hatred gets more important and just as written in the article Mediocrates posted:"These acts will not vanquish terrorism; they are its recruiting call."
When will Israel learn? If this is not a situation that Sharon really wants, then I cant see why he is using a old strategy that has never worked.

Lomplighter, Maybe I cant spell denmark in mandarin but I assure you I can spell swedish better than you so whats you point? I have enough knowledge about the history of ME and am SURE my geography is better than yours. Especially if you are american. As other europeans I dont just study the great civil war in schools. Attacking me or Takeo personally dont take away the fact that you never have any thing to say exept "islamic" or "fundamentalist". If you say it in dutch,english or latin makes little difference. My advice is you learn arabic so you can talk to your conquerors when the arab invasion of west starts ;)
Your obvious fear of islam is so sad I really wish to help you. Maybe you should just go out in any city, US or European and look around. Maybe take a beer and sit in the sun for a while. Relax. We will not turn into muslims.

[Mediocrates]

"We will not turn into muslims"

Well maybe the next best thing. You are their bitch.

[Northlander]

hahaha, is this just the old "you are either with us or against us" crap?
Your hate against all muslims are so obvious. Thats just plain old rasism. I guess the US must have enemies at all costs be it russians, asians or as now muslims/arabs. You give all prejudices about stupid americans a face. Really funny guy though. Im sure all europeans feel like muslim bitches. How lucky we are that you protect us. one two three four I love the marinecore...

[Mediocrates]

No, not with us or against us, not at all. But after 5 centuries of internecine bloody warfare on your own continent you'd think that that the European world view would be able to distinguish right from wrong, good from bad, society from slogans. The history of Europe in the 20th C. is in large ways the story of fascism vs. anti-fascism where countries took a side and fought for their own survival because the 'other' was intent on crushing them. Right and wrong. Countries had a stake, or claimed to, in defending what way of life they actually lived under. The result was ultimately, the failure of both fascism (until recently) and anti fascism (except for the resurgence of old communist party hacks in the FSU and SW Asia). Now for Europe, everything is everything and we see the Rennaissance of Equivocation. The world view where there is no longer any right or wrong and all things are given equal weight. A Mugabe is the same thing as a Chirac. A brush war here there or anywhere else is like any other as long as the EU can sell weapons and send aid to BOTH sides.

It is the legitimacy of amoralism. The ultimate expression of Machiavelli's realpolitik. And like the old Chinese proverb "Heaven is high and the emperor is far away, the hue and cry from the EU is "make no judgment".

You complain the US is the bully of the world. I submit it's because the EU is the slut of the world.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander
hahaha, is this just the old "you are either with us or against us" crap?
Your hate against all muslims are so obvious. Thats just plain old rasism. I guess the US must have enemies at all costs be it russians, asians or as now muslims/arabs. You give all prejudices about stupid americans a face. Really funny guy though. Im sure all europeans feel like muslim bitches. How lucky we are that you protect us. one two three four I love the marinecore...

I bet you love the Marine Core I can tell by those winking Smilies you send me. Or do you have something in your eye.
You should count you blessings because if it hadn’t been for the Americans that laid down their lives for Europe your life would certainly be a lot different now.
Actually Palestinians and Muslims in the US are doing quite well and a matter of fact it’s the dream of most Muslims to reach the shores of North America.

[Mediocrates]

"Get the hell out of our country...and take us with you"


The cry heard round the world.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
hahaha, is this just the old "you are either with us or against us" crap?
The only problem with that statement is that our President did not enforce it. Instead, he let the Arab sponsors of terrorism go unpunished, and worse yet, treated them as allies instead of enemies as they really are.


I guess the US must have enemies at all costs be it russians, asians or as now muslims/arabs. You give all prejudices about stupid americans a face.
Northlander, are you suffering from sudden amnesia or just living in denial? Have you totally forgotten what your Islamic friends did to America on 9-11?

The repeated attacks on America are why the US (and the world for that matter) need to view Islamic terrorism as ther enemy, not out of some imaginary "prejudice" as you would like to delude yourself apparently.


How lucky we are that you protect us. one two three four I love the marinecore...
As am American taxpayer, I would like to see us immediately withdraw each and every US soldier out of Europe, send the EU a big bill for re-imbursement for the expenses of keeping our soldiers there for all these years, and be done with paying to protect Europe from themselves.

[Northlander]

Northlander, are you suffering from sudden amnesia or just living in denial? Have you totally forgotten what your Islamic friends did to America on 9-11?

Since I think it was a horrible act and I know it effected many people I will try to be careful what I write when it comes to 9-11.
You should get al-qaida and put them to trail. Punish them as they deserve. I have no problem with EU supporting those efforts. But you are fools if you think it all started 9-11. It did start way before. Its just not one lunatic man. Obviously alot of people hates america enough to kill their civilians. As america obviously has hated enough to kill others civilians. Have you even stopped for one second to think about why USA was targeted and no other country. I think maybe other allies to USA will be targeted in the future but I dont totally agree on the point that it was a pure Islam attack on the whole west. There are alot of foreign politics leading up to this. From both sides but mainly from the west.

As am American taxpayer, I would like to see us immediately withdraw each and every US soldier out of Europe, send the EU a big bill for re-imbursement for the expenses of keeping our soldiers there for all these years, and be done with paying to protect Europe from themselves.
I would love to see that day. Maybe you could use your money on helping to rebuild the 3rd world instead of bigger army. It would help more in preventing terrorattacks. But I dont really expect you to see the big picture on this one. You would keep on insisting that your military strength is the sollution even after all your cities were nervegased by terrorists.
"Get the hell out of our country...and take us with you"
Arrogance at its best. Its no game you know. Alot of people still suffers from your military escapades. Personally I have seen what your bombings of belgrade and your collateral damage there did to people. You wouldnt sleep well at nights if you know how some felt about all of you after that.

[Mediocrates]

You clearly have never been to or know many people from Asia or from South America who don't already have comfy lives in Europe.

What the US needs is a clear fair and meaningful guest worker policy and I guarantee you 20 million people would come here tomorrow if we did.

[Northlander]

sure Ive both been there and know people living here. Im sure alot of them wants to go to USA and live there. But thats part of the problem. You are at least to some extent rich on their behalf.
That goes to some european countries as well. They should not need to work as guest workers in the states. And its offensive to hear you imply that they should be happy to be able to come to USA instead of staying. The humiliation I have been talking about. Same as many ordinary afghans was talking about. You bomb them for whatever reason, some were even happy about the bombs but still felt humiliated, and then give them rice to eat. It easy to see how one would feel after that. In s.america its was very clear I think. Alot of anger towards USA but still they dreamt of better lives so if they had to crawl before the enemy they would. Some of them. Those that would not I would worry more about if I was NSA. As we all have seen on numerous occations.

[takeo]

The good old good and wrong, bad and evil-history has prooven false by history, maybe in WWII, but even there the US and the soviet-union did save Europe purely for their own interests.
The US, a country killing millions of people in Vietnam, sponsering murderous terror-regimes in Latin America or Asia, and a country were more money is spend for the military than on health care can certainly not be classified as "good", nor could the Soviet Union, china or Europe. All have their own interests and own mistakes.
I agree that some things are evil, as osama bin Laden, or criminals killing babies, or fascism, but i don't agree that whole countries or peoples can be evil or good, most of the time it is all about interests, not good or evil. it was in everybodies interests to destroy al-quaida, of the us, europe, Russia and china and Iran that's why they all cooperated, not because they tought it was a struggle of good against evil. (or they all consider evil something else, yet by incidence they all consider osama as evil)
evil is anything that is against your own views, if those views are that palestinians don't have a right to live between the Jordan and the sea, than you will see the palestinian struggle as evil, if you consider they do have such a right, than you will consider the occupation-policy as evil.
if you consider anyone interfearing with us-economical interests as evil, than you will support the coup's in latin america against elected leaders. People who see democracy and human devellopment as most important will see this as evil. I can imagine people in yougoslavia, supporters and ennemies of milosevic, will see the bombing of bridges and television buildings of Beograd as evil and of the same category as the bombing of the WTC on 11th september.

"My advice is you learn arabic so you can talk to your conquerors when the arab invasion of west starts "

:D funny!!!

[Northlander]

you put it exactly as I think about it Takeo. I think its important for USA after 9-11 to think about this. Its not about good and evil it depends on anyones subjective POV. Im SURE any al-qaeda member doesnt sees themselves as "evil". It doesnt matter much right now cause USA is defending its interests and also safety at all costs. But thinking like that would perhaps prevent actions from any country in the west that starts new growths of terror.
When I critise USA or any other country for that matter including my own its just because I feel its necessary to point out that USA or others are not all together "good". In Lomplighters eyes muslims are "evil" but thats just because he is scared and feels threatened. Fear is always dangerous and creates hatred. Its not uncommon to fear what you feel is different but its not an excuse. You should at all times think about the fact that there are many different political views among arabs lomplighter. There is no planned movement to take over our beloved territories in the west! Most people with arab heritage in europe has fled for whatever reasons FROM islamistic states. The belive that they would generally want to create new islamistic systems here is just not logical. To even belive that west would let it happen is just stupid.

[Mediocrates]

that is the biggest load of crap I've heard this week

there is no evil or good except when talking about the US - that's real evil?

do you get paid to write that?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by takeo
The good old good and wrong, bad and evil-history has prooven false by history, maybe in WWII, but even there the US and the soviet-union did save Europe purely for their own interests.

The concept of good versus evil has not been proven wrong. You are confused by the fact the world is complex. Yes, the U.S. has interests that are not purely based on good versus evil, but there is a large area of intersection between the two.

Though, I find it telling that you and Northlander both deny the existence of good versus and evil and sympathize with the Palestinians.


The US, a country killing millions of people in Vietnam, sponsering murderous terror-regimes in Latin America or Asia, and a country were more money is spend for the military than on health care can certainly not be classified as "good", nor could the Soviet Union, china or Europe. All have their own interests and own mistakes.

These are lies, even if they are widely accepted by leftists (who have a long history of contriving history to justify their means). The U.S. did not kill millions of people in Vietnam; the Khmer Rouge did kill >1 million people in Cambodia, though... all in the name of creating a utopian society, of course.

Spending more money on military than healthcare is not automatically "not good." What will save the next 3,000 or more victims of a spectacular terrorist attack in the US is not healthcare, but military action against terrorist bases and the regimes that support them. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

You think that because countries have their own interests and make mistakes that somehow this proves that "good versus evil" is just a PR stunt? You are cynical, but you are not correct.

The U.S. does more than any country to promote democracy, individual freedom, tolerance, and justice. The fact that the U.S. is not perfect, and that others hate the U.S. for promoting such values, in no way disproves the existence of good versus evil.

In fact, it seems that what you are really saying is that there is good versus evil -- it's just that you are doing everything you can to label the U.S. "evil."


I agree that some things are evil, as osama bin Laden, or criminals killing babies, or fascism, but i don't agree that whole countries or peoples can be evil or good, most of the time it is all about interests, not good or evil. it was in everybodies interests to destroy al-quaida, of the us, europe, Russia and china and Iran that's why they all cooperated, not because they tought it was a struggle of good against evil. (or they all consider evil something else, yet by incidence they all consider osama as evil) evil is anything that is against your own views, if those views are that palestinians don't have a right to live between the Jordan and the sea, than you will see the palestinian struggle as evil, if you consider they do have such a right, than you will consider the occupation-policy as evil.

No one has ever argued that entire countries or people are evil -- though Arafat's PA has done about as good of a job as possible in turning an entire society into one that promotes and glorifies murder of innocents.

Your statement that "evil is anything that is against your own views" is amoral. Again, it speaks volumes about your sympathy for the Palestinian cause. You try to deny the existence of evil -- though you just admitted it in the case of Osama bin Laden -- because you don't want your support for the Palestinian cause to be subjected to moral scrutiny.


if you consider anyone interfearing with us-economical interests as evil, than you will support the coup's in latin america against elected leaders. People who see democracy and human devellopment as most important will see this as evil. I can imagine people in yougoslavia, supporters and ennemies of milosevic, will see the bombing of bridges and television buildings of Beograd as evil and of the same category as the bombing of the WTC on 11th september.

The U.S. does more to promote democracy than any other country. It is in our interests to see the rest of the world's countries functioning democracies that live by the rule of law rather than the whims (and passions) of dictators.

What you refuse to see is that it's Latin Americans who make and support coups against their leaders -- elected or otherwise. The U.S. does not control Latin American societies to the extent that it can empower a tiny handful to seize power against the wishes of the vast majority. This is a leftist fantasy.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Northlander
you put it exactly as I think about it Takeo. I think its important for USA after 9-11 to think about this. Its not about good and evil it depends on anyones subjective POV. Im SURE any al-qaeda member doesnt sees themselves as "evil".

What you are saying, in other words, is that "good versus evil" is just an opinion. And Al Qaeda members don't see themselves as "evil."

So what's the answer? Are they or are they not evil? Or is that just up to them to decide?

The only place your amoral perspective leads is excusing and justifying people who purposely commit mass murder against civilians.



When I critise USA or any other country for that matter including my own its just because I feel its necessary to point out that USA or others are not all together "good".

Like Takeo, you seem to think that because the world is not simple that this disproves the existence of good versus evil.

Sorry, but knowing what the right thing to do is is not simple. But that doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile to try to figure it out. Of course, it's easy if you just give up from the very start.


In Lomplighters eyes muslims are "evil" but thats just because he is scared and feels threatened. Fear is always dangerous and creates hatred. Its not uncommon to fear what you feel is different but its not an excuse. You should at all times think about the fact that there are many different political views among arabs lomplighter. There is no planned movement to take over our beloved territories in the west! Most people with arab heritage in europe has fled for whatever reasons FROM islamistic states. The belive that they would generally want to create new islamistic systems here is just not logical. To even belive that west would let it happen is just stupid.

If you had facts and reason on your side, you would not need to indulge in speculating about other's unstated motives, nor would you need to call them "stupid" to make your point.

Yes, there are many Muslims who have fled Islamic states. But there are also many Muslims who flee because they want a more hardcore Islamic state. Ayatollah Khomenei spent many years living in the West as an exile. Clearly, it wasn't because he loved or even admired the West. Yet it is telling that such people must seek refuge in the West...

While the majority of Muslims living in the US don't want to turn the U.S. into an Islamic state, it is equally naive to think that none want to. In case you didn't know, the 19 Muslims who hijacked four airplanes on Sept. 11th were precisely such people -- and there are many more of them. Clearly, they are evidence of people who were sent here on a mission.

Unfortunately, Islam does teach that it is its destiny to conquer the world, and that it is the duty of followers to conduct Jihad. Of course, this does not have to be interpreted as meaning that Muslims must struggle and conspire to destroy Western institutions. But this is how militant Islam chooses to interpret it, and there simply aren't very many Islamic leaders who are willing to speak out regularly, consistently, and loudly to counteract this view.

There were also people who denied that the Nazis wanted to conquer the world... and surely the Nazis did not consider themselves "evil"... but they were wrong.

[Mediocrates]

Clearly the argument that there are fundamentalist Islamic beliefs that drive people who want to destroy the west is at best though, weak. That may vertainly be the bent of the people who stay at home and preach hate but just as clearly the 911 terrorists lived middle class lives in Florida, rented tapes from Blockbuster, visited skin clubs, and did everything that any other mainstream suburbanite did. There was no purity at work there. The motivator was cultural. That is, there is no shame of partaking of Gemorrah while in Gemorrah as long as the terrorist intends to destroy Gemorrah in order to allow Islam to succeed in its place. That's what any 5th column does and really shouldn't shock anyone.

[ibrodsky]

Mediocrates, I don't understand your post.

What would motivate people to destroy themselves in the process? I think it is clearly belief that they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

The fact that evil-doers are not "pure" should hardly come as a surprise. After all, they convinced themselves it is right to kill thousands of innocents, so they could easily convince themselves that it was OK to visit a "skin club" before becoming martyrs.

Clearly, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and other groups promote the idea that such actions are justified by Islam and rewarded by Allah. I agree that this has become part of their culture... but probably just because Islam has the ability to completely take over people's lives.

[Mediocrates]

It's not a religious or fundamentalist motivation. It's a motivation grounded in the difference between their (secular) culture and ours. They (and us) may wish to frame it in religious or spiritual terms but it is no more religious than saying there are no atheists in foxholes. And that is why it is more dangerous than simple religious differences. It is grounded in more basic visceral irrational constructs; of interpretation of histories, of 'race', of assumed cultural superiorty and hegemony, nationalist destiny. The kinds of motivation that allowd people to build concentration camps and then conveniently forget that they themselves slaughtered people there. Religious differences at least allow for a dialog. Racist cultural nationalism does not.

The mullahs have found a justification in religion, a recruiting tool, as it were. But once selected, the people know why they are there and what they are supposed to do.

[L@mplighterM]

Look at the videos to which I provided a link in an earlier and you’ll get the idea (if you don’t already have it) where Islam is coming from.
You’ll see that from birth that the Palestinians are thought in mosques to hate Jews and it continues in daily life in schools and universities.

As far as I’m concerned evil/good exists in only one state and separates depending how we perceive a situation. I would classify many Palestinians as learned psychopaths with their perverted view of good/evil indoctrinated into their psyche through education. In other words many become programmed psychopaths why cares nothing for others feelings.

Currently 1000’s (if not millions) of these evil bastards (at least I perceive them as such) are being churned out in schools across Islam. They all have a hatred of Jews, Gentiles and of anything that’s perceived as being anti Islam.


http://server12.castup.net/mfa/

[takeo]

let me just add that the people you are referring to indeed exist as a fifth colomn in western countries, including France, and really hate the culture of the West (even if they participate in it themselves, that's part of Islam's hypocrisy, a hypocrisy existing as well in Christian and Jewish religion). These however are only a tiny minority of the people who live here as immigrants. The big majority came here for economical reasons and their cultural base is slowly but steadily erodated by the western values and way of lifes, for some it is a cause for fundamentalist behavior (even more so than in the motherland), as the orthodox Jews resisting the secularised trend in israel, for most it is just a fact they will not combat. The israel/palestine question is separated from this, this is about nationalism and oppression, and more related to the Kurd/turkish or Irish/english question. of course, as in ireland, religion makes the differences bigger, but the main question is not religion but land.
this is an interesting post by mediocrates:
"It's not a religious or fundamentalist motivation. It's a motivation grounded in the difference between their (secular) culture and ours. They (and us) may wish to frame it in religious or spiritual terms but it is no more religious than saying there are no atheists in foxholes. And that is why it is more dangerous than simple religious differences. It is grounded in more basic visceral irrational constructs; of interpretation of histories, of 'race', of assumed cultural superiorty and hegemony, nationalist destiny. "

this is true, israel has always promoted itself as a country for Jews, thus leaving no place for the original inhabitants, as you say, race, assumed cultural superiority, national destiny.


"The kinds of motivation that allowd people to build concentration camps and then conveniently forget that they themselves slaughtered people there. Religious differences at least allow for a dialog. Racist cultural nationalism does not. "

exactly, this applies for all sides.

[L@mplighterM]

Islamic Fundamentalism and its followers are more than a minority. Most Muslims should be considered generally warring by nature in my opinion. To view the situation differently has dangerous consequences for any nation. Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip hide their Islamic Fundamentalism purposefully in my opinion. They wear western style designer clothing such as NIKE etc but this should be considered as a cloak. Western civilization would not have the sympathy it does for Palestinians if wasn’t for fact. The land issue is also a cloak because they have had plenty of opportunity to settle the issue but have been steadfast
in their refusal. The issue is one where the bottom line is to finish Nasser’s dream and that is to KILL EVERY JEW and then live on their land.

Please don’t compare Islamic Fundamentalists to Orthodox Jews because there’s no comparison whatsoever. NONE !!!! If Orthodox Jews were like the Muslims I’d sell out and move somewhere else. Not that I’d get much for my properties because no one would want to live among terrorists and that’s exactly what Islamic Fundamentalists are.

Jews love peace and life something that you could never understand. You can perhaps fool the others with your commie Jew BS but not me takeo. You’ve made way too many mistakes in your posts so I’m afraid your credibility is zilch with me. Go back and read all your posts. If you want to be good at not telling the truth at least remember EVERYTHING you write.

This might eventually end in a nuclear war at least it has the possibility for it. Billions of rotten stinking corpses will make quite a stink. Just before you expire you can ask yourself if it was worth defending a terrorist like Arafat. My guess is that the answer will be yes because you’re a fanatical Arab who sees Arafat as a g-d.

[takeo]

"The concept of good versus evil has not been proven wrong. You are confused by the fact the world is complex. Yes, the U.S. has interests that are not purely based on good versus evil, but there is a large area of intersection between the two. "

this is a philosophical discussion, there are some things considered as good, such as education, fighting poverty, etc. and some things condidered by all human kind as evil, but there are a lot of things, people, and countries that are neither good or bad according to universal human standards. What you may consider as good will be considered by a lot of the world as evil, do you have the arrogance to say that you are right and they are wrong??? I guess the US want to push the world to their values, which are not all considered good by the world. By the way the US doesn't even act to its own standards, it is for democracy and freedom officially, but supporting dictatorships and coup d'etats all over the world, it is for international regulation officially, but does not act according to it when it is against their interests(for example cuba-blocking, yougoslavia, iraq, israel, etc.) , it is for international punishment of war-crimes, but don't want to be persecuted themselves, etc. etc.


"These are lies, even if they are widely accepted by leftists (who have a long history of contriving history to justify their means). The U.S. did not kill millions of people in Vietnam; the Khmer Rouge did kill >1 million people in Cambodia, though... all in the name of creating a utopian society, of course.
"

I am communist but i will agree with you that the KR was evil, and many americans will agree to you that what happened in Vietnam was evil too. By the way i visited camodia according to most estimations two million people died in the hands of the KR and 1 million because of indiscriminate american bombardments (in laos as well). In Vietnam most people have family who died because of American bombs... more than 80 million people live in vietnam...
So how is it possible that the good ones killed millions of innocent people, collateral damage???
The good guy and bad guy are good for stupid and simplified hollywood movies, the reality is a lot more complex. It is amoral to present yourself as good if the only thing you are doing is looking to improove your geo-political or economical interests. I don't know one single war in which the us was involved on basis of moral reasons... even the last war was because of us-security, not because the us was going to safe the world from the guys they installed via their pakistan friends only a couple of years before... (and were also usefull in harassing China and Russia).


"Spending more money on military than healthcare is not automatically "not good." What will save the next 3,000 or more victims of a spectacular terrorist attack in the US is not healthcare, but military action against terrorist bases and the regimes that support them. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. "µ

LOL, actually all those billions of dollars would never have stopped Osama and his friends with just a couple of knifes... in fact military spending is against China and russia, not against north-korea or terrorists, with the current arsenal the us would destroy north-korea or iran with nuclear weapons in a second. More military superiority can ony be used to treaten the world, to defend the us the current us-material is more than enough. But the current social money for poor people in the us, many more and much poorer than in Europe, is not enough. t is disgusting to see so much poverty in the richest land of the world, and i would say "amoral".

"You think that because countries have their own interests and make mistakes that somehow this proves that "good versus evil" is just a PR stunt? You are cynical, but you are not correct. "

I am correct really, anyone can say they fight against evil, in fact osama said it too, in fact everyone and every country is fighting for its own interests and its own views, especially in a capitalist society, they are not fighting for combatting universal evil in the world. Even the crusades were not good against evil, they too were about economical interests of Venice against Byzance, the same old story...
The US isn't evil, i never said so, but neither is Iraq or Iran or Israel, whoever, only the policy of those countries is against my views of justice and is against the interests of their own and other people according to me, but all of them have good points too, some more than others.

"The U.S. does more than any country to promote democracy, individual freedom, tolerance, and justice. The fact that the U.S. is not perfect, and that others hate the U.S. for promoting such values, in no way disproves the existence of good versus evil. "

LOL, the us did a great job promoting democracy and freedom in their middle east puppet regimes :rolleyes:
also the us tend to support in the whole thirth world and eastern Europe the most dictatorial regimes(the list is long, Korea, middle East, philippines, all over latin america in the 60's and 70's, Turkey, Greece, Africa, ...) , and they only care about human rights when it is interesting for their own interests (as in kosovo, but not in jenin, Azerbaidjan or guatemala for example)
Others don't hate the us for promoting such values (which they don't actually, the clinton administration said so, but didn't, the bush administration doesn't even bother) but because the US thinks it has the right to attack other countries or change regimes and interfeare in internal policy of other countries whenever they feel to and whatever the human cost. You should understand that this creates hate. You wouldn't want any foreign country to do this to the states. Also the us promotes free trade in the whole world and forces other countries (mostly poor defenseless) to open their border but will protect their own industry.




"No one has ever argued that entire countries or people are evil -- though Arafat's PA has done about as good of a job as possible in turning an entire society into one that promotes and glorifies murder of innocents. "

Arafat has only resisted against israeli occupation, wrong according to international written standards.

"Your statement that "evil is anything that is against your own views" is amoral. Again, it speaks volumes about your sympathy for the Palestinian cause. You try to deny the existence of evil -- though you just admitted it in the case of Osama bin Laden -- because you don't want your support for the Palestinian cause to be subjected to moral scrutiny. "

what about the 35 years of israeli occupation, shouldn't this be subjected to moral scrutiny? or do you consider this to be part of the "good"? if this is the "good" i don't want to live in your society...
the palestinian struggle is ok for me because the palestinians are fighting for their principal interests, survival!!! The israeli are fighting for reasons of expansionism and etnic superiority, however this is not in the interest of the israeli people and the security in the middle East, according to me.




"The U.S. does more to promote democracy than any other country. It is in our interests to see the rest of the world's countries functioning democracies that live by the rule of law rather than the whims (and passions) of dictators. "

This has prooven false, democracy in Egypt or Jordan or SA would be a disaster for the us, and the us has taccled every democratically elected leader in latin-america that was against their economical interests and replaced him by dictators (guatemala in the 50's, Chile in the 70's, uruguay, etc., recently they tried in venezuela). The cIA have recently released documents that proove the cia- role in chile, and about venezuela the evidences are clear too, as well as in many other coups around the world. You are very quick to make conclusions about arafat but about your own country or israel even the most obvious indications are simply just coincidal, aren't they???
and the rule of law doesn't impress the us a lot, certainly not the laws of the un (unless they are in their own interests).

[christian]

Takeo,
brilliant understanding! :cool:

You should be in political journalist. I doubt you can get a job like this with your level of honesty. There aren't any freedom of press. Every nation controls his media outlet, if the media outlets will damage the country's interests. This includes the US , Eu, arabs, china, russia,etc It is sort of invisible hand control.

[Northlander]

I agree. Its not much left to say in the subject after Takeos post. Compare it to Lomplighters post and you have an example of subjectivity vs objectivity.

What you are saying, in other words, is that "good versus evil" is just an opinion. And Al Qaeda members don't see themselves as "evil".So what's the answer? Are they or are they not evil? Or is that just up to them to decide? The only place your amoral perspective leads is excusing and justifying people who purposely commit mass murder against civilians

That is a typical hollywood statement. "are they or are thay not evil?". Its BS. Obviously Al Qaedas actions are evil. Pure evil if you like. But if the result from the attack was that USA isolated themselves and never again used their army abroad Osama would have achevied a "good" thing. He choose to see his deeds as "good". Its in his interests. Or at least it could be so. I dont really understand his motives. But an "evil" action could still be "good". Its not my opinion but its very common for terrorists or IDF or US militarys. The whole consept of "collateral damage" is base on this. " justifying people who purposely commit mass murder against civilian". Thats it. Do you americans consider yourself to live in a "evil" state? You cant deny that mass murder of innocent civilians is pure evil. And you cant deny the fact that the number of deads after american airraids are big enough as go as massmurder. I would never use the term evil against a whole state. Its to complex. Americans are not evil in general just because they express support to their military which does evil things. Nor are the palestinians just because some of them blow up children.
There is also one thing we can bring up here while we are at it.
Has anyone of you considered the fact of mental ilness? I mean alot of people are just plain crazy. We have all kinds of lunatics.
Even if we dont call them "sick" the human brain have alot of different variations. I recently saw a physcologist talking about 3 famous copkillers here in sweden. He said that in the past years they are beginning to see patterns never seen before in violent behavior and lack of empathy etc. Empathy is the keyword maybe.
Of the 3 robbers 1 where a classic psychopath. Clever, really charming etc. A demagog. Plain luck in my opinion he was a neonazi and bankrobberer when he could as well be lawyer or politician. One of the others had some kind of mentalblockings from his time as mercenary in croatian army during bosnias war. Fear can rapidly force the brain to block certain functions as empathy or even the ability to feel new fear. When taking into consideration all the mental aspects of lets say so few as 10-20 persons involved in the 9-11 operation we can have some really interesting individuals from a psychological point of view. That can explain the ABILITY to perform something like that but maybe not the motive. But lets say Osama is of a personality category seen at many political leaders then the motive can be more than religous,political etc. He can have some kind of mental disorder. Its not uncommon.Churchill suffered from manicdepression for example. No wonder he used gas agaisnt his enemies. The man could basically wake up every morning with absolutely no will to go on with his miserably life. 1 out of 4 kids is possible to have damps syndrom they say nowadays. Supposedly that can result in lack of empathy etc. Its more into a terrorist than just "evil" and "good". Im very curious about american bomber pilots. Im not saying they are crazy but something differs them from many other people. How can they go on living with themselves without having this pictures of the damage they create. I would just change job. Easy decision. Crying children trying to wake up their dead parents. People burried alive for days. children without arms. Same goes for the suicide bombers. What I mean is that the abilty to IMAGINE others pain and suffering is different from probably every individual. So besides the political reasons there has to be other things when we talk about fundamentalism and fanatism. Its possible to create mental blockings when they are young. Hunger, sexual abuse, violence, fear, living without parents etc. Also some people have it from birth. Was Hitler born crazy or did he become crazy. Was he sociopath, scizofrenic?
I dont belive for one second that Islam has anything to do with it.
Some people will always become extremists and the rest are just victims of the time they live in and the environment. The environment in many muslim countries are better suited for extremism but that dont make them evil. It doesnt make the religion any worse than other religions either. And the environment in WB is mainly Israels fault.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by christian
Takeo,
brilliant understanding! :cool:

You should be in political journalist. I doubt you can get a job like this with your level of honesty. There aren't any freedom of press. Every nation controls his media outlet, if the media outlets will damage the country's interests. This includes the US , Eu, arabs, china, russia,etc It is sort of invisible hand control.


Actually there?s freedom of the press in Israel and I don?t find it slanted. Most of the news and/or articles that I post are from AP. I don?t expect a Chinese person to know how the media works because after all you?re not used to having a free press in China.

Whatever I post has nothing to do with media bias in Israel the articles are gotten ( that I post or refer too) from another source.

[Mediocrates]

This includes the US , Eu, arabs, china, russia,etc It is sort of invisible hand control.


You might try the Tinfoil Hat Tribune - I hear they're fair, even to aliens.

[Mediocrates]

And why is the absence of hate such a politically preferable postion anyway. Since when is it the job of nation states to insure that other countries and some of their indigenous populations like one another. Why is the absence of friction such a wonderful state of grace.

Our own Francis Fukyama wrote (with a huge amount of wrong-headedness and stupidity) about the 'End of History' when he described future US foreign policy in light of the collapse of the CCCP. As if the absence of conflict was some kind of utopian political landscape. When of course he was wrong on several counts, the key one being that he forgot to think about the resurgence of fractured ethnic nationalism.

At any rate you dream about some perfect communist harmony where all men and women of all creeds and colors embrace, no matter how many skulls you have to trod on along the way. You jump from 'now' to perfection, however that is defined. And one of the ways you see your way clear to that path is the absence of political, social or other frictions. Ignoring of course 3000 years of recorded social history and how different societies became preeminent, typically by force and not by cooperation. By defending right and fighting wrong, however those societies framed it.

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


I don?t expect a Chinese person to know how the media works because after all you?re not used to having a free press in China.



Do you really think the US is the only country where the press is free? China has some state controlled media, but that doesn't mean there's some guy working in the 'ministry of truth' who cuts some parts out of the articles. China is quite liberal when it comes to press, it may be communistic, but don't forget that it also has important trade partners. You can find plenty of magazines discussing economics, politics and even the military.

The difference between the media in China and the US, is that the Chinese gov't owns the companies, and not some private investor. In the US, the media (and other private companies) controll the state, that's probably a lot worse.

[Mediocrates]

"In the US, the media (and other private companies) controll the state, that's probably a lot worse."

give me a dollop of paranoia with my latte today, thank you.


A) It's not true
B) Who are the media
C) What (specificly) is worse than
D) Worse than what
E) What is probably


If you follow US media which you claim to be an expert about you would know that there is a storm about so called 'liberal bias'. It may or may not be true - I doubt that term has much context or meaning. At any rate you would find that apart from Fox the mass media are generally sympathetic to the Palestinian people/cause/action. Certainly its a low level crypto-approval but it is there none the less as any student of the media and propaganda would recognize.

You would also understand, as a self professed expert on all things American that with few exceptions there is a blurry line between Op-Ed and hard news reporting and when you watch or read the news you are looking at something that's about 50% opinion and 50% fact. Start with a premise and spin the facts to make them fit.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU


Do you really think the US is the only country where the press is free? China has some state controlled media, but that doesn't mean there's some guy working in the 'ministry of truth' who cuts some parts out of the articles. China is quite liberal when it comes to press, it may be communistic, but don't forget that it also has important trade partners. You can find plenty of magazines discussing economics, politics and even the military.

The difference between the media in China and the US, is that the Chinese gov't owns the companies, and not some private investor. In the US, the media (and other private companies) controll the state, that's probably a lot worse.

You might claim there’s no Ministry of Truth but that just isn’t so. Dissidents wouldn’t be arrested, in China there’s absolute control without freedom of speech unless you’re the top dog.

[takeo]

thanks christian and northlander :)

actually if i would be journalist i would adapt my writings to what is acceptable for this newspaper's editors, as you know it is possible to say the same things in other words that are less offensive, one can also suggest "between the lines"... American and british journalists by the way are good in this, especially on difficult topics as the middle eastern conflict or friendly nations. in other cases they are as openly blunt and one-sided as could possibly be (for example when talking about Iraq).
I think the American media is not controlling the state but there seems to be some kind of interaction, CNN and Time, in my opinion, seem to be controlled by sympatisants of the Democratic party, everything Clinton did or said was OK, while they are slightly more critical to do bush-administration. I remember that the kosovo-reporting was very one-sided and uncritical, while in the israeli-palestinian conflict they seem to have a more neutral stand (considered pro-palestinian by hard-line Israel defenders, who expect nothing but absolute loyalty and the party-line as in the JP).
Really critical and oppositional newspapers or television channels in the US are very rare, much more rare than in Europe, where we have some established newspapers very critical to what the french government does (for example le Monde Diplomatique). The real critical voices in us are limited to quite isolated (yet very intelligent) people as Noam Chomsky, who doesn't have any important media to support his view.
in both Europe, china and the US you can find all kind of information if you really search, yet most people will stick to the main media, which are heavily influenced by the political top.

mediocrates i agree that a total lack of social or political problems or hate is utopia and will never occure, yet one has to try to limit hate and problems, no???
about the theory of northlander about insane persons, i agree that lack of empathy can be caused by insanety (or vice-versa). Yet i think most people with lack of empathy are like that because of the way they think, whichh isn't necessarily insanity. For them the goals are so important that any mean is ok. for the palestinian suicide-bombers it means Heaven or the freedom of their people, for israeli troops killing innocent people it means the survival of israel or the jewish people. They are generally people who strongly believe in an idea without much self-criticism. Hate is also an important factor, if you only hate someone enough you are able to kill that person, or even his family. This hate can have various causes, because of propaganda, teached to hate by the media, or because you have personal reasons to hate someone.
The tirth kind of people are the machiavellian people, who think that harming people for their own interests is ok, and see the world as a jungle where you have to eat are will be eaten...