PA Dumps 24 Bodies into Jenin Mass-Grave

[NewsGuy]

In preparation for the UN's so-called "investigation" into the Jenin battle against terrorism, the Palestinians were busy today setting up a fabricated mass-grave, according to the Israeli press.

Representatives of Arafat's PA exhumed 24 bodies of Palestinians who were killed before the start of Israel's "Protective Wall" incursion, and tossed the bodies into a newly created mass-grave in Jenin to pretend as if Israel massacred those Palestinians.

UN and Red Cross workers already at the scene are expected to look the other way and conceal their knowledge of the ongoing fraud.

These latest events are part of the unbelievable deceit surroundng the UN's anti-Israel investogation.

If someone were to write a "B" novel about the Arab war against Western civilization, the author could not even imagine a more bizarre plot line than the crimes against humanity that the Arab/UN/EU axis of anti-Semitism has managed to perpetrate on the world.

[L@mplighterM]

Surprise of surprises!

I told my wife and others that they would do just that. Furthermore I wouldn't be surprised that many of the bodies found in the grave had been murdered by the PA in order to discredit Israel.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
In preparation for the UN's so-called "investigation" into the Jenin battle against terrorism, the Palestinians were busy today setting up a fabricated mass-grave, according to the Israeli press. Source?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by JustPat
Source?

The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/breaking/2002/04/27/FFXWN9GD80D.html)

[JustPat]

Originally posted by JustPat Source?

Originally posted by NewsGuy The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/breaking/2002/04/27/FFXWN9GD80D.html) Thank you.
G-d bless the Aussies

[Vic]

Now this is true PR genius ;-)

As opposed unfortunately but not unexpectedly to the Israelis' PR:

The army, quoting military intelligence sources, said in a statement posted on its Internet site that the "Palestinians are performing false manipulations in order to show greater damage than was actually inflicted".

Ever heard of true manipulations?

[Northlander]

must give it to the israeli PR guys though. Its harder to see through if its from australia. It could be true but as long as israel prevents UN access to Jenin nobody will pay any attention to what israel says about the area anyway.

comments on this?
http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/israel041802.htm

Brave army you got there. Really impressive. Let children walk into boobytraps and do the tough work.
Im telling you IDF will get you isolated sooner or later. If the americans didnt even support their own troops doing stuff like that in vietnam how could they support your troops much longer?

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Northlander comments on this?
http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/israel041802.htmOK
Considering the lengths HRW went to to "expose" the Israeli indictment, where is their documentation on the Paslestinian indictments alluded to. Could there be a hidden agenda? Is it possible that such a noble group would be in collusion, be it unwittingly of course, with the anti-semitic attitude so prevalent among American liberals (go figure :confused: )?

One thing about those who have a cause to foster, they will often find justification in any little tidbit. I prefer to look at the facts as a whole. Bring on the eveidence or drop the accusations.

[Northlander]

Bring on the eveidence or drop the accusations.

the same of course goes for the "military intelligence sources" that claim palestinians to add bodies to the graves in jenin.

I dont say it couldnt happen but on the other hand if Israel would have let reporters and observers in from the beginning the palestinians wouldnt been able to fix the graves.

Now we will probably never know what happened in Jenin and that have been the intention from Israel all along. Not very smart since all intelligent people around the world will understand that Israel obviously is prepared to take all the suspicions and loss of goodwill rather than to be confronted with the truth.

What do you need? What evidence? Do you think Im able to go to Jenin for myself and gather evidence?
You are really funny. All reports that comes from Jenin you all claim to be arab propaganda. At the same time you have made it almost impossible for neutraobservers to gain access. Now no evidence for what really happend will ever come out and you still want evidence for what has happend.

Most people have more faith in human raights watch than IDF that after all are the accused here. Its so ridiculos its almost laughable. Do you even know how this looks in the educated world?

[Mediocrates]

You'll notice that in that HRW report the following recommendation to the PA:

"To the Palestinian Authority

Ensure that the Palestinian security forces act to the fullest extent possible under the law to prevent armed Palestinians from opening fire on IDF positions in situations where unarmed civilians are at risk of drawing return IDF fire.

Ensure that members of the Palestinian security forces do not participate in such attacks, and investigate and bring to justice those who disobey such orders."
*****

-omissions speak volumes

It does not say refrain from attacks on civilians. Apparently Israelis have no human rights.

Then it goes on here:

To the International Community

Call upon the PA to ensure that its security forces act to the fullest extent possible under the law to prevent armed Palestinians from opening fire on IDF positions in situations where unarmed civilians are at risk of drawing return IDF fire, and to ensure that Palestinian security force members do not participate in such attacks.
******

A 100% restatement of the above section. Which is the same thing as "the PA doesn't have to do anything as long as international parties (unnamed and unspecified) have the same responsibilities".

-sorry, but if their intentions are pure they need either better writers or better lawyers.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
1. Now we will probably never know what happened in Jenin and that have been the intention from Israel all along. Not very smart since all intelligent people around the world will understand that Israel obviously is prepared to take all the suspicions and loss of goodwill rather than to be confronted with the truth.

2. Most people have more faith in human raights watch than IDF that after all are the accused here. Its so ridiculos its almost laughable. Do you even know how this looks in the educated world?
1. Well, the thing about which we will, in fact, know exactly what happened is the massacres committed by Palestinian mass murderers against Israeli civilians. We do know exactly what happened in the Passover massacre, and we do know exactly what happened in the Adura massacre, where an Arab murderer entered houses and shot Israelis in their bedrooms, including a 5 year old girl.

So now that we have situations where we do know what happened, I don't see you nor others who hold similar views to yours, say anything, except to criticize the Israeli victims of Arab terrorism.

2. Have there been any efforts from the "educated" world (as you say) to call a UN investigation of the Passover massacre? Of the Adura massacre? Of course not, because that would be honest and involve confronting realities that apparently you and others who hold similar views try to avoid at all costs.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Northlander Not very smart since all intelligent people around the world will understand that Israel obviously is prepared to take all the suspicions and loss of goodwill rather than to be confronted with the truth.
But of course there is no bias on your part. ;)

I think the matter of evidence is rather simple for us who stand far off and sermonize. We look to those in the journalistic community who will bring eye witness accounts. We weigh all the accounts and make judgements on our best guess of what happened. It is what our governments do. They may have better witnesses, but it is still your best guess.


Originally posted by Northlander Now no evidence for what really happend will ever come out and you still want evidence for what has happend. Then I will expect that now there will be no discussion of the matter.


Originally posted by Northlander Most people have more faith in human raights watch than IDF Who are "most people"? "Most people dont even know HRW exists. "Most poeple" could care less until the events begin to affect their mundae lives. Laughable, what is laughable is that a Finlander would dare to speak for most people. Please, my sides.

Originally posted by Northlander Do you even know how this looks in the educated world? Yes, it looks like the media paints it because "most people" haven't the resolve or concern to find out the facts for themselves.

[Northlander]

newsguy
that is exactly what propaganda is about. Yes we know exactly what happend when arab terrorists made the attack. Foreign journalists gain entrance and IDF is very helpful. When civilians dies on the arab side the opposite is true.

justpat
yes I agree it all comes down to the best guess. As far as I know I dont know anything that I really havent seen with my own eyes. But one has the freedom to listen to alot of sources and make your own guess. I think to buy the whole package from newschannels are not very smart since those news are in one or the other way coloured by the public oppinion and the reporters personal views. Thats why I still read your links here even though some of it can be seen as propaganda too.

Then I will expect that now there will be no discussion of the matter.

dont think so, its an obvious attempt to prevent the truth to be seen. Then we can really talk about taking a guess. I would prefer the more independent sources that gained entrance. The best thing would have been if IDF let the reporters in during the fighting. Alot of reporters are used to worse conditions than those. If the IDF had the rights on their side and the palestinians had not it would have been a great chance to prove that for Israel. But they choosed not to so they are either very stupid , which I belive not, or very smart. Logic prevails and the bottomline is that Israel for some reason didnt want the fighting to be seen and they dont want the results to be investigated.
So as far as Im concerned we can call it the massacre of Jenin until Israel stops cowering things up. I just want the truth and if it is like you says in there you would gain support and the palestinians would not.

Who are "most people"? "Most people dont even know HRW exists. "Most poeple" could care less until the events begin to affect their mundae lives. Laughable, what is laughable is that a Finlander would dare to speak for most people. Please, my sides.
most people are the majority in the world today that are against israeli occupation. that supports the UN since its the only organisation we have despite its problems. Since I live in europe I see the opinions from the public. Israel has supporters too I dont deny that but they lose support rapidly now. You dont have to belive it but its just so. People do care. Even if it does not affect their lives. Another war somewhere else would probably take all eyes of israel now but apart from that nothing will.
It will take decades to clean the reputation even if it would be peace now. Behave like the worst countries and you will be seen like one of them. No better no worse.

Yes, it looks like the media paints it because "most people" haven't the resolve or concern to find out the facts for themselves.
The possibility. People dont have the possibility to find out.
Thats why we have people to do that for us. I dont consider IDF or Hamas to be the best ones for that job. Prefer to hear it from professionals. Regardless of nationality. The more views the better.

I know that you know that if IDF had nothing to hide and if the operation was clean and justified Israel would have used this opportunity to gain support and win a PR-battle. They didnt.

[JustPat]

Before I reply to your post, let me bring out two points about media coverage of a military operation. First, with the current behavior of the media, broadcasting every comment, every rumor, avery image without verification of the facts has degenerated what was once called journalism into nothing more than rumor mongering. With people like Hearldo Rivera in the field as "war correspondents" we cannot expect anything but sensationalism. (But maybe he'll finally find Jimmy Hoffa!) Second, with the current lack of integrity of the media, any military operation is put at risk by the readiness of today's media to get the story out at all costs, even when they are giving "the enemy" the intel he needs to kill our soldiers. Having been in the military, I cheer the banning of media from the WZ. Let the journalist who ventures in take his life in his hands and pay the consequence, right Bob Simon!
I know that banning the media makes it harder to sort out the reults. I know that the military will be less likely to restrain itself in volitile situations without that camera on the scene. But look at the provocation that the media brings. Palestinians spraying graffiti - in English - just for the benefit of those watching, demonstrations staged for the cameras, etc. For the sake of all those involved, I support a ban of the media.

Originally posted by Northlander Since I live in europe I see the opinions from the public.Since when are Europeans the only public. When was the last time you saw a poll of how Ugandans feel about the conflict? How about the Samoans? What of the Tibetans? Do you think the average Hatian cares about this at all? I think you live in a very small world, exclusive and sheltered. "Most people" don't have the access we have to media sources, and of those who do, most do not avail themselves of the sources out there.

Originally posted by Northlander I know that you know that if IDF had nothing to hide and if the operation was clean and justified Israel would have used this opportunity to gain support and win a PR-battle. They didnt. There is more to life than PR, more to battle than being viewed as always right, but that is part of the price you pay if you cottle political opinion in the midst of battle. Ask George MacArthur the value of politics in battle. If he'd have been alowwed to have his way, WWII would have been over two years earlier. Ask the Marine in Viet Nam what value there is to marrying public opinion to your battle plan gets you and he will tell you, "Dead"
Sharon, not unlike most of Israel's senior leadership, is a military man. He thinks like a military man, acts like a military man, and politics like a military man. Hang the PR, get the job done. In the end, it will be a matter of politics as to how it all plays out. Japan and Germany have recovered and seem to be doing quite well.

[Mediocrates]

Stalinesque purges throughout history have held on to the 'if you have nothing to fear then you have nothing to hide' mantra. We had our own McCarthyism. I'm sure all over Europe there are histories like that.

I just finished reading "Blinded by the Right" which makes the point, however indirectly, that much of what you read and hear and accept as common truth is in fact manufactured PR if not an outright lie, completely synthesized and made up, served up as information when it is in fact advertising, propaganda, libel or worse.

I don't know much about your press but I would suspect unless you're all superhuman angels, that it falls between two ends of this spectrum:

The American slant which is driven by glitz and noise and short sound bytes to serve up equal parts fluff and paid political advertising. Generally from the right.

The British slant which in fact has very little absolute press freedom and is beholden to the government on issues of security and policy.

I suppose it's possible to have something akin to the French with Figaro on the right and whatever is not that on the left, today. But I doubt that in a small largely homegenous society that is the case. I mean you all hate the Finns, right? :mad:

At any rate, whenever I hear "tell the truth, it will set you free" I'm reminded of the public lynchings at the hands of people like Hearst and Pullitzer, at the recent cries of "It's a massacre" in 72 point type followed up by a "woops we were wrong" buried somewhere near the bottom of page 32, 8 days later. I'm reminded that in the end Ethel Rosenberg was probably completely innocent and the government has more or less copped to that after all these years. I'm reminded that hundreds of people are publically destroyed on the accusations of a few that are never verified and that it happens on an everyday basis. I'm reminded that about 200 million Arabs are exposed to and accept as truth "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". I'm reminded of the big lie over and over until even people like you who still recognize it, simply don't care anymore because it doesn't fit into their agendized world view.

[Mediocrates]

The big sin is not the big lie - it's the ever growing indifference to it.

[A-Palestinian]

"The big sin is not the big lie - it's the ever growing indifference to it."

Absolutely.

[NewsGuy]

One of the biggest myths is that Israel is delaying the UN lynch mob "investigation" because of having something to hide. That is false.

In fact, Israel has already had UN representatives, as well as EU representatives, as well as Amnesty International representatives come to Jenin and they all agreed and declared publicly that no massacre took place in Jenin. (Although it is agreed that dozens of massacres did take place by Arab terrorists againt Israeli citizens, leaving hundreds dead).

Israel has made it clear that it would accpet a UN team under certain reasonble terms, such as:

1. Including military experts who have the expertise to make a professional determination,

2. Getting an assurance that the investigation would be objective, which would include an investigation into the massacres of Israelis and the terrorist infrastructure responsible for the Jenin battle.

Simple requirements, which the UN has been sand-bagging, because it is obvious that the UN is only interested in one outcome, whether on not it is based on facts, which is a condemnation of Israel to appease the Arab block at the UN.

So it stands to reason that Israel will not bow to a biased UN charade designed to harm Israel and not to uncover any actual facts.

[Mediocrates]

There were two additionals clauses the IDF required. That the investigation into Jenin be limited to Jenin as opposed to some open ended free ranging 'commission'. And second, that testimony had to be limited to persons who had some knowledge and/or direct stake in the investigation. These clauses were predicated on the UN's late insistance that it not be restricted or bound by their own conditions once they got on the ground, and second their agreement to Palestinian requests that any person be allowed to testify on any subject.

Ok so maybe it's only a wallaby court.

[L@mplighterM]

Bold posted by Northlander:

The best thing would have been if IDF let the reporters in during the fighting. Alot of reporters are used to worse conditions than those. If the IDF had the rights on their side and the palestinians had not it would have been a great chance to prove that for Israel. But they choosed not to so they are either very stupid , which I belive not, or very smart. Logic prevails and the bottomline is that Israel for some reason didnt want the fighting to be seen and they dont want the results to be investigated.


I’m certain there were reporters in Jenin. They might not be to your liking but that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

I’m certain that there’s video footage off all that went on there. The residents of Jenin should consider themselves lucky that the brave soldiers of the IDF confronted them. I can think of no other armed force that would conduct house-to-house searches.

I know what’s bugging you Northlander and that’s the fact that there’s not a mass grave of IDF soldiers. Sour grapes aren’t it? Well too bad for you!

List precedents where armed forces from other countries have done as much to protect civilian lives?

[Mediocrates]

UN mulls disbanding Jenin inquiry.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020146445803


While at the same time the PA pulled out of negotiations over the church of the nativity

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020084577817

[ibrodsky]

An excellent editorial in the Wall Street Journal today regarding war crimes in Jenin. The Palestinians violated the Geneva Convention by purposely hiding combatants among civilians, disguising combatants as civilians, and booby-trapping civilians' homes.

The editorial also points out that Palestinians interviewed in the US and Egyptian press have verified that there was no massacre of Palestinians. (But there was a massacre of Israeli soldiers: they were lured to their deaths by the claim that a group of Palestinian terrorists wanted to surrender.)

Since the EU sends tens of $millions in aid to the PA, isn't it time to investigate the PA for terrorist activities?

[JustPat]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM List precedents where armed forces from other countries have done as much to protect civilian lives? I can think of none, US included.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by ibrodsky An excellent editorial in the Wall Street Journal today regarding war crimes in Jenin. The Palestinians violated the Geneva Convention by purposely hiding combatants among civilians, disguising combatants as civilians, and booby-trapping civilians' homes.What, no UN Commision to investigate? I hear the one originally assigned to Jenin is looking for work. ;)


Originally posted by ibrodsky The editorial also points out that Palestinians interviewed in the US and Egyptian press have verified that there was no massacre of Palestinians. (But there was a massacre of Israeli soldiers: they were lured to their deaths by the claim that a group of Palestinian terrorists wanted to surrender.)But Israeli's are not victims, by definition of current world opinion. :rolleyes: Why is it that Israel can provide hard evidence for its case and no one wants to hear it? The Palestinians voice accusation and the world rushes to it as fact. Would to G-d that deliverance would come to Israel in a way that would rival the Exodus. "This grease spot is the former Yasser Arafat."


Originally posted by ibrodsky Since the EU sends tens of $millions in aid to the PA, isn't it time to investigate the PA for terrorist activities? Long over due.

[Gatorade]

Originally posted by Northlander
Now we will probably never know what happened in Jenin

The Boston Globe had an interesting article yesterday.
http://nl9.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=0F335655B98E537A&p_docnum=1
If the link doesn't work, type claims of massacre are unsupported in their search.

“British military adviser to Amnesty, Reserve Major David Holley, was quoted yesterday by Reuters news service as dismissing the Palestinian allegations of a massacre and predicting that no evidence would be found to substantiate them.�

A Islamic Fighter said, “"Of course the Palestinians won" this battle, he said, because "they did not shake our morale. This was a massacre of the Jews, not of us."

So Palestinian fighters there and a HAMAS leader in another article implied that he had reservations calling it a massacre. We may not ever know what exactly happened at Jenin but so far the evidence doesn’t suggest that a massacre did occur. Why assume one has until evidence does suggest it?

With that said,I think Israel has to have someone come in and count the bodies because in the future the claim will be 5000 dead bodies instead of the 500 some were claiming last week.

[L@mplighterM]

IDF Major General Gilad: Palestinians are moving animal carcasses into Jenin to worsen stench in camp


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
newsguy
that is exactly what propaganda is about. Yes we know exactly what happend when arab terrorists made the attack. Foreign journalists gain entrance and IDF is very helpful. When civilians dies on the arab side the opposite is true.
ok, so now that we know exactly what the details were of the Palestinian massacres against Israeli civilians, please tell me where, oh where, is the UN investigation of the Palestinians?

My point is that it is always only Israel that is the subject of UN condemnation and never the Palestinians who are known (as you agree) to have committed dozens of massacres against Israeli citizens.

This double standard is why Israel is, of course, reluctant to allow yet another biased UN mob-lunch of Israel -- not because there is anything at all to hide.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Gatorade
The Boston Globe had an interesting article yesterday.Sorry, your link did not work, but here is the article in it's entirety. To the PA supporters, please note the eyewitness accounts.

CLAIMS OF MASSACRE GO UNSUPPORTED BY PALESTINIAN FIGHTERS
Author(s): Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff, and Dan Ephron, GlobeCorrespondent Date: April 29, 2002 Page: A1 Section: National/Foreign
JENIN, West Bank - Palestinian Authority allegations that a large-scale massacre of civilians was committed by Israeli troops during their invasion of the refugee camp here appear to be crumbling under the weight of eyewitness accounts from Palestinian fighters who participated in the battle and camp residents who remained in their homes until the final hours of the fighting.

In interviews yesterday with teenage fighters, a leader of Islamic Jihad, an elderly man whose home was at the center of the fighting, and other Palestinian residents, all of whom were in the camp during the battle, none reported seeing large numbers of civilians killed. All said they were allowed to surrender or evacuate when they were ready to do so, though some reported being mistreated while in Israeli detention. Palestinian Authority leaders have asserted that more than 500 people, mostly women and children, were killed in the camp and that many of the dead were buried by Israeli forces in mass graves. Investigators for Amnesty International said that Israel failed to provide safe passage from the camp to noncombatants.

The Palestinian allegations led to the creation of a UN fact-finding team for Jenin, but Israel yesterday barred the team from arriving amid allegations of an anti-Israel bias.

Israel says that those Palestinians killed in the Jenin battle were almost all fighters, that none were buried in mass graves, and that ample chance was given to fighters to surrender and for civilians to leave. It initially estimated the death toll at 100 to 200, and has since revised that toll downward to 50.

Meanwhile, a British military adviser to Amnesty, Reserve Major David Holley, was quoted yesterday by Reuters news service as dismissing the Palestinian allegations of a massacre and predicting that no evidence would be found to substantiate them.

Jamal al-Shati, who was appointed by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat to document events at the camp, said last night that 52 deaths have been documented, including those of three women and five children under 14. He asserts that the Israelis secretly removed bodies from the battleground.

Munir Arsam, 15, a member of Islamic Jihad, said that during the siege, which began April 3 and ended around April 11, he did scouting work for older militants, threw homemade pipe bombs, and helped with ambushes of Israeli troops. He said he was one of 50 boys, divided into groups of 10 by militant leaders, who were assigned these tasks.

In contrast with allegations by some Palestinians and Amnesty investigators, Arsam said women and children were able to evacuate the camp before the climactic battle began. Even at the height of the struggle, fighters were able to put down their weapons and surrender, he said, though he also said, as did the Amnesty investigators, that those who surrendered were beaten and otherwise mistreated while in detention.

Arsam said he knew of five fighters in houses bulldozed by the Israelis, at least two of whom were wounded and screaming for help when the bulldozers came. "The men in the tanks and bulldozers could not hear them," he said.

He said he saw Sheik Ri'ad Abu Abd, 57, of Tulkarem, one of the Palestinian heroes of the battle, wounded with a bullet in the leg near the end of the fighting, and asked him if he wanted to surrender.

"He said `No, I want to die, I want to fight and die,' and a while later that house was bulldozed," Arsam said. On the last day of the battle, with no ammunition left, Arsam buried the weapon he had acquired during the fighting and surrendered.

"They destroyed all the houses in Hawashin," he said, describing a now-demolished neighborhood in the camp. "I was in the last house, and they called out, `Surrender or we will fire at you.' There were only two of us, so we left, and they destroyed the house." He said the Israeli soldiers held him for four days, frequently beating him to make him confess to membership in Hamas or Islamic Jihad, then released him.

Asked if he felt any massacre had occurred, Arsam said: "We killed them and they killed us, but we were victorious."

Abdel Rahman Sa'adi, 14, another Islamic Jihad grenade-thrower, said he was one of a group of 11 adults and seven young men who surrendered upon Israeli demand. He said they were confined in a courtyard near the camp to which the Israeli troops brought dozens of other men and women.

"They told all the small kids to just leave, and they let all the women go after they checked their bags," said Sa'adi, who has braces and was wearing a baseball cap. "None of them were kept for questioning."

"Of course the Palestinians won" this battle, he said, because "they did not shake our morale. This was a massacre of the Jews, not of us."
Prompted by bystanders, he revised his statement. "I think there was a massacre here - maybe 100 people," he said.

Khalid Mohammed Taleb, 70, lay on a concrete slab from his ruined house, shaded by a makeshift plastic awning, watching with a blank expression as people clambered over the rubble yesterday and buried mines and grenades occasionally exploded.

"I come every day," he said. "I lived here 50 years."

Taleb and his extended family of 11 people stayed in the camp rather than evacuating because "we thought it would be like the first invasion, they would make an incursion and leave. I used to say I wouldn't leave even if they buried me in this house, but I saw the bulldozers killing people and I left."

That was around midnight, on the day before the battle ended.

Taleb said he raised a white flag and walked at the front of a group of 20 people - his own family and those of two neighbors. The destruction of his house and the surrounding buildings occurred after the civilians left, he said, when only fighters remained.

He said several times that no civilians were killed , but after repeated questioning from reporters and bystanders, he said: "Well, maybe one or two. It was a big battle." Was it a massacre? "Perhaps," he said. "Both sides lost."

An Islamic Jihad leader, who insisted on anonymity, said he was wounded as the battle drew to a close, and crawled 300 yards to where other fighters had gathered.

"There were 35 of us, and they were bringing down houses on us, so we surrendered," he said. Israeli soldiers "threw me on the garbage near the hospital at noon" on the last day of the battle, "and I remained there until 1 a.m." The Israelis did not attempt to confine or question him, and he returned to the camp Saturday, he said.

All the fighters said that the Israelis failed to wipe out the militant leadership in the camp, which long has been known as an Islamic Jihad stronghold.

"Of course we are reorganizing," said the Islamic Jihad leader, who walked with a cane and was thronged by comrades near the wreckage. "I don't know what is the plan, what is the strategy, but people are full of hatred."

Arsam, the 15-year-old fighter, said leaders of Islamic Jihad and other factions were taking new groups of youngsters to a hill near Jenin every day for military training, teaching them to fire automatic weapons and to make bombs.

A spokesman for the Israeli army asserted, meanwhile, that Palestinians were moving bodies of people not killed in the Jenin fighting into graveyards around the camp "to score points with the UN committee due to arrive to investigate the happenings in the Jenin refugee camp." The military said this charge was based on information received from Israeli intelligence agencies, and refused to elaborate.

Charles Radin can be reached at c_ radin@globe.com

[L@mplighterM]

Here's some more Palestinian propaganda :




Ramala, 1 may (EFE).- La liberación del presidente palestino, Yaser Arafat, a cambio de la renuncia a la investigación de lo ocurrido en el campo de refugiados de JenÃÂn, es el acuerdo al que han llegado Estados Unidos e Israel, afirmó a EFE Ahmed Abdul Rahman secretario del gabinete de la ANP.

http://www.efe.es/includesasp/noticiafoto.asp?opcion=0&cod=126697&imagen_G=/imagesrmm/20020430/126697.jpg


translated:


Ahmed Abdul Rahman, the secretary of the Palestinian cabinet, has told a Spanish news agency that Arafat was released after a deal was struck between Israel and the United States in which Israel would free Arafat in return for a promise by the US to drop any investigations into the Jenin refugee camp.

[ibrodsky]

Actually, the PA has admitted that only about 50 people were killed, "which is not disproportionate" to the number of Israeli soldiers killed.

From the Washington Times:

JENIN, West Bank � Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation.

The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.

[JustPat]

Quite the massacre! Wafa is still pushing the 500+ count.

[L@mplighterM]

JENIN, West Bank ? Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation.

The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.

Two weeks ago, when European and particularly London newspapers were reporting estimates of "hundreds" massacred, Israeli sources in Washington said they expected the Palestinian toll to reach "45 to 55."]
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan suggested yesterday, in the wake of the Palestinian body count, that he may disband a U.N. fact-finding team that was to visit the camp to determine whether a massacre had taken place.
Mr. Annan was responding to a decision by the Israeli security Cabinet earlier in the day not to cooperate with the U.N. team.
The U.N.-Israeli dispute appeared unrelated to the Palestinian admission there had been no massacre.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020501-5587072.htm


The whole thing is garbage I would say that at least half the world believes that there was a massacre at Jenin. That?s going to stick until the end of time.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM The whole thing is garbage I would say that at least half the world believes that there was a massacre at Jenin. That?s going to stick until the end of time. I have noticed that truth is irrelevent, it's who has the best PR machine that influences public opinion. In time the kids will be saying, "Yasser who?" just as they do now with the likes of Churchill, Eisenhower, and David ben Gurion. As the psalmist said, "Man is like a breath; His days are like a passing shadow." This too shall pass.

[Mediocrates]

Clearly the PLO is building a historical mythology. Eventually the facts will be forgotten and largely irrelevant but what will persist is the myth.

We see this now in Serbia where some long ago battle in the 14th century is used as an excuse to wipe out a populace.

For example, let's not forget that the 'trigger' for all of this, the 'infamous' visit to al Aqsa was announced by Sharon over a week before it occured and had to be cleared by Palestinian police security first. And when it did happen it took all of 10 minutes. 100 Jews walking for 10 minutes outside a mosque. That's their rationale. But of course over time the 100 people will be 100 soldiers and the walk will turn into a pitched battle and the 10 minutes will be 10 days. And our childrens' childrens' generation will swallow it as whole truth.

[Gatorade]

On April 12, CNN online reported -

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat said, "A real massacre was committed in the Jenin refugee camp. I appeal to the secretary of state to go there to see for himself so as to enable bereaved families to bury their children -- their daughters , sons, husbands and wives -- who were massacred."

Erakat told CNN more than 300 Palestinians were being buried in mass graves in Jenin refugee camps, from which journalists have been barred.

In a statement, Brig. Gen. Eyal Shlein, the IDF commander at Jenin, said, "There was no massacre whatsoever. If we wanted to perform a massacre, we could have taken over the camp in one day." [But we all know how the IDF always lie ;) ]

Now with today's new evidence coming out now from the Washington Times – 56 dead Palestinians 33 Israeli

Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement no longer used the ubiquitous Palestinian charge of "massacre" and instead portrayed the battle as a "victory" for Palestinians in resisting Israeli forces. "Here the Israelis, who tried to break the Palestinian willpower, have been taught a lesson," Mr. Kadoura said.

He insisted that Israel had tried but failed, thanks to the heavy fighting, to destroy the entire warren of homes in the camp that had housed 11,000 people.

[Mediocrates]

Yet the area of engagement was ~4% of the total area of the camp. The camp, a.k.a. bad neighborhood is more or less 2500 sq m. The battle area was 100 sq m or ~ 2.4 acres.

So it's hard to fathom how the intent was to level the all the homes there. More odd is that the PLO claims that 4,000 fewer people live there than even the UN claims.

[NewsGuy]

I guess it's amusing to see how yet another Palestinian lie unravels. From accusations of 1500 dead to 500 dead to 56 dead armed militants.

Yet, the terrorist supporters and their apologists drone on and on about the "massacre," because "massacre" plays better to the gullible than "46 dead murderers of innocent Israeli children".

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Clearly the PLO is building a historical mythology. Eventually the facts will be forgotten and largely irrelevant but what will persist is the myth.

We see this now in Serbia where some long ago battle in the 14th century is used as an excuse to wipe out a populace.

For example, let's not forget that the 'trigger' for all of this, the 'infamous' visit to al Aqsa was announced by Sharon over a week before it occured and had to be cleared by Palestinian police security first. And when it did happen it took all of 10 minutes. 100 Jews walking for 10 minutes outside a mosque. That's their rationale. But of course over time the 100 people will be 100 soldiers and the walk will turn into a pitched battle and the 10 minutes will be 10 days. And our childrens' childrens' generation will swallow it as whole truth. Only if we allow that to be the only record of events. Our children, my children shall be intimately familiar with the truth. I will see that those who follow me know what happened in this generation.

[NewsGuy]

(From Ynet, the Internet version of the #1 Israeli Daily)

Interview in Hebrew with Benjamin Ben Eliezer, Israel's minister of defense:


Q: What is our position vis-a-vis the UN today?

A: I'll say it again, we have nothing at all to hide. But when we started reading the terms of the commission and when you see the composition of the committee, and you know what their areas of expertise are and what the areas of expertise of their assistants, you understand that this is a committee whose verdict has already been reached. Now they just need to fill in the details.

The State of Israel is fighting for its survival. Offering peace. A country that for a year-and-a-half paid a heavy price of 359 dead. Here there was really a massacre. People were slaughtered. We don't have anything to hide, and I think that in the end the UN committee will arrive. But I want them to arrive not only under the terms set by the other side, but rather also on our terms. Entire families of ours were slaughtered, and at the end, we need to explain that we are not the slaughterers?


Q: The security establishment revealed that the Palestinians added bodies to a mass-grave located outside the refugee camp. Do you have documentation for that?

A: Of course.

Q: Do you intend on showing the documentation?

A: If need be, yes. It is documented.

More from the Interview:

"I spoke with UN Secretary General and told me that he committed to Shimon Peres 'there won't be a committee without coordinating it [with Israel].' 10 minutes later, I hear that the committe was [already] formed. I call his and say to him 'at least take [American] General Nash as a member of the committee. He says 'consider it done.' 10 minutes later I hear he's appointed as an observer [and not as a member of the committee].

"Beyond that, we have a very difficult experience with them [the UN] in Lebanon. Not only their actions along the border, but also with the big deception over the videos of the [Israeli] hostages. They deceived us with the video. [UN observer] Larsen screamed at the Israeli commander (Gabi Ashkenazi) 'There is no such thing. You are lying!" Two hours later, he calls to apologize.
...

"I want them [the UN] to investigate the terrorism. They should investigate what happened. They should investigate our restraint for 11 days, during which 70 people were killed and close to 200 injured -- up until Passover night. Let them say what happened first. 22 terror attacks during that period of retraint. I want them to investigate why Jenin is called the capital of the suicide bombers. How it happened that Arafat was talking about 3,000 dead citizens."

* * *

For anyone who would like, here's the full interview in Hebrew:

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-1867548,00.html

[Northlander]

The whole thing is garbage I would say that at least half the world believes that there was a massacre at Jenin. That?s going to stick until the end of time.

The numbers will get out in the end. I prefer to wait before I settle for the 56-33 casualties. Also want to see how many were civilians. But I read your links and others.
But what I cant see is why you dont agree to me saying that Israel would benefit to play with open cards. You must clearly see that the minister of defense is not exactly a reliable source. Nor are the islamic fighters as eyewitnesses. Their statements are interesting but by no means valuable to get the whole picture.


Since when are Europeans the only public. When was the last time you saw a poll of how Ugandans feel about the conflict? How about the Samoans? What of the Tibetans? Do you think the average Hatian cares about this at all? I think you live in a very small world, exclusive and sheltered. "Most people" don't have the access we have to media sources, and of those who do, most do not avail themselves of the sources out there.

I was only talking about the european public. Not about tibetans.
I dont think tibetans are that interested generally about ME.
I dont see your point. I was talking about what could be relevant to the sollution of the conflict. European and american opinions are relevant.

Mediacrates:

I suppose it's possible to have something akin to the French with Figaro on the right and whatever is not that on the left, today. But I doubt that in a small largely homegenous society that is the case. I mean you all hate the Finns, right?
9 million different opinions about the Finns here I would guess. Personally I admire them as a people. But I dont like doing generalisations.
Our press is more like the french I believe. But there is a negative side to that in that many people read what they already knows and want to hear. I saw on swedish television a report from USA that was related to this conflict. They went to an arab community and then to a jewish community somewhere in the states, maybe new york. The talked about the fact that in this age the sources of information are legio and the backside from the obvious benefits are that many people still just hear what they want to hear. The arabs in the community got together and watch al jaezera or whatever and of course their anger against israel gained new energy. Same for the jewish family that watched israeli television and those of the american reports that they felt were fair. They admitted that they maybe wanted news that made them feel certain ways, like hopeful or the feeling of being treated unfair etc. Still there is a public opinion and people change their minds. During the 1st of may demonstrations yesterday I saw alot of jews in the palestinian march. Not all people read "their" news obviously. I wouldnt read LamplighterM´s posts in that case. You cant get too much information in my opinion and the closer you get to the truth the better. When I have heard enough numbers from Jenin then finally I have to settle for what I believe is the truth. Then I will but not before. In the meanwhile my view can change. For now I still belive that IDF used human shields when searching houses. I dont hold it for impossible that palestinians tampered with the graves either. But for the average european maybe Jenin is just another trouble spot where something bad happened. IF they even know about Jenin. To them the reports of israel denying UN investigators is the important thing and they choose were to lay their sympathies accordingly.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Northlander ... many people still just hear what they want to hear. ... When I have heard enough numbers from Jenin then finally I have to settle for what I believe is the truth. ... For now I still belive that IDF used human shields when searching houses. Reading between the lines, you often find "the truth." You come to the discussion biased and hoping that you can find enough numbers and accounts to support your opinion. Very open-minded.

[Northlander]

not to support my opinion. I wouldnt have any numbers at all If I didnt turn anywhere. I cant go to jenin myself and interview people you know. The best thing to hope for is that enough journalists I feel have a neutral approach can get into Jenin.
So was not the case. I saw and heard many reporters complaining about that IDF prevented them access to Jenin. Or when they finally get there IDF only showed them into certain houses and so on. I always read between the line when there are something to read between. If palestinians had shown the reporters around the same is true. They would have shown certain areas where the destruction was total and so on. Are you honestly objecting to the fact that the more reporters the harder to tamper with evidence. Are you really that paranoid that you think 100 reporters from asia,europe and USA are ALL anti-semetic and stupid enough to only write arab propaganda?
Even american reporters got threatend by IDF when they tried to move freely. You could see an IDF tank move its gunturret and stop it at the camera crew. Say what you want but the IDF has tried to prevent the truth to get out period. Face the facts. You cant quoto the defence minister and think his opinion is relevant.
some says 500 dead and I belive the number is maybe to high.
Some says 56 by whom all are terrorists and I think the number is maybe low. We will know sooner or later I hope but maybe not. In any case the IDF has made sure that Israel looks really bad and now you will all wonder why the world always hates israel. When will you learn? Put a leash on IDF and win alot.
At least force them to comply to international laws.
You either hide stuff or you dont. Had they threatend foreign reporters if they wanted an objective newsflow from Jenin? I dont think so. Why dont they want an objective view of Jenin? Cause they are hiding something. Do they still want to send in IDF in palestinians towns when they refuse to send in neutral UN troops there? Yes I think so. Use logic for once please.
Im starting to belive that some people in israel dont want peace.
Is it as in USA that some elements in the armed forces try to set the political agenda? No war no money to the army?
The problem is maybe that old soldiers like Sharon stears the ship.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander
not to support my opinion. I wouldnt have any numbers at all If I didnt turn anywhere. I cant go to jenin myself and interview people you know. The best thing to hope for is that enough journalists I feel have a neutral approach can get into Jenin.
So was not the case. I saw and heard many reporters complaining about that IDF prevented them access to Jenin. Or when they finally get there IDF only showed them into certain houses and so on. I always read between the line when there are something to read between. If palestinians had shown the reporters around the same is true. They would have shown certain areas where the destruction was total and so on. Are you honestly objecting to the fact that the more reporters the harder to tamper with evidence. Are you really that paranoid that you think 100 reporters from asia,europe and USA are ALL anti-semetic and stupid enough to only write arab propaganda?
Even american reporters got threatend by IDF when they tried to move freely. You could see an IDF tank move its gunturret and stop it at the camera crew. Say what you want but the IDF has tried to prevent the truth to get out period. Face the facts. You cant quoto the defence minister and think his opinion is relevant.
some says 500 dead and I belive the number is maybe to high.
Some says 56 by whom all are terrorists and I think the number is maybe low. We will know sooner or later I hope but maybe not. In any case the IDF has made sure that Israel looks really bad and now you will all wonder why the world always hates israel. When will you learn? Put a leash on IDF and win alot.
At least force them to comply to international laws.
You either hide stuff or you dont. Had they threatend foreign reporters if they wanted an objective newsflow from Jenin? I dont think so. Why dont they want an objective view of Jenin? Cause they are hiding something. Do they still want to send in IDF in palestinians towns when they refuse to send in neutral UN troops there? Yes I think so. Use logic for once please.
Im starting to belive that some people in israel dont want peace.
Is it as in USA that some elements in the armed forces try to set the political agenda? No war no money to the army?
The problem is maybe that old soldiers like Sharon stears the ship.


I think your entire post is biased.

[Northlander]

still alive lamplighter? no muslims invaded denmark yet?
read this while its still time:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0408-03.htm

from Chicago Tribune

"The Israelis are becoming increasingly like the white supremacist South Africans, viewing the Palestinians as a lower form of life, not hesitating to kill a great many of them and justifying this on the grounds that they are being the objects of terrorism, which is true. But their reactions are all out of proportion . . . "

Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter and respected foreign policy intellectual, speaking during a recent broadcast of PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer.

I like this, but what the hell, what does this guy know about national security and politics? :rolleyes:

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter and respected foreign policy intellectual, speaking during a recent broadcast of PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer...
Brezinski, whose entire career has been defined by one failure after another, figured out that there is some retirement money to be made by enlisting in the Arab propaganda and disinformation machine.

So he yaps about a "disproportionate" response, because to his Arab backers, the fact that 360 Israelis were butchered in the streets of Israel, in restaurants, in shopping malls and in their own bedrooms, does not justify striking back at the Arab mass murderers.

To people like the Arab apologists, among them Brezinski, Any effective self-defense is "disproporationate," of course.

Here's what Honest Reporting .com has to say about Brezinski:

"Old administration members often don't fade away, they just seek to reverse their irrelevance.

This week, former President Jimmy Carter and his national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, attempted to make themselves relevant again on the Israeli-Arab conflict...

Brzezinski and Carter both err when they write that UN resolutions, the 1978 Camp David Accords, and the Oslo Agreement require Israel return to the pre-1967 borders. Their claims parrot Arab positions , but don't accurately reflect the words and intentions of UN Resolution 242, the agreed basis for all negotiations.

The drafters of Resolution 242 -- the British Ambassador to the UN in 1967, Lord Caradon, and the American Ambassador, Arthur Goldberg -- specifically did not call for Israel's return to the pre-1967 borders...

Brzezinski further repeats Palestinian propaganda by charging Israel with a "repressive occupation and its indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians -- including numerous children."

In truth, Israel strikes only at Palestinians combatants, and with laser precision (literally). If innocents are wounded or killed, it is accidental, and Israeli leaders and citizens express their sincere regrets.

Rather, it is Palestinian suicide bombers who are "indiscriminate," seeking to kill anyone and everyone in their mad quest -- babies, mothers and teenagers -- in bloody deeds extolled by Palestinian society..."

Full Article (http://honestreporting.com/Critiques/2001/97_ghosts.asp)

[Mediocrates]

I posted something about commondreams yesterday. Talk about how far the great have fallen?!?!?!?

Basically common dreams has become a sludge pool of hate. There are no articles that don't include the name "Sharon" and the phrase "homicidal war criminal" in the same sentence. They have completely dropped their progressive focus and decided to become a hate speech site. No longer do we see any of the Progressive agenda that commondreams popularized in the past. Like child labor, globalization, pollution, third world debt, landmines, the environment, living wage and so on. Now sadly it's been taken over by PLO apologists and every article could have just as well been printed by the Egyptian news service. If you want balance or even accuracy you'll have to read The Christian Science Monitor. For example:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0502/p01s04-wome.html

or this

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0502/p06s01-wome.html

But don't throw commondreams around as an unbiased reliable source. And trust me no one is more upset by that than I.

[Mediocrates]

And if you go their discussion boards you'll find the sentiment clearly anti Israel, maybe by 10:1 although it's not as well informed as the group here. Maybe some of you should take a turn there. You'll also find Atlantic's boards chock full of "some of my best friends are Jews but I sincerely wish for the violent end of Israel" types. Failing that, go to netslaves.com and chat up the folks there. Of course if you disagree with Kurt Nimmo the admin about whether you want to enslave all the jews vs. just kill them all, he'll delete your posts. So get going people everbody swing to the left and embrace humanity !!!!

[Mixxupp]

Hi Northlander,

So you rely on reporters to report the truth. Leaving aside the philosophical question about what is truth, keep in mind that these guys are quite oftenly unaware of the full history of the conflict (by the way, how can you check the credentials of, say a CNN reporter?). Moreover, they will shoot a lot of footage every day in the hope of catching the scoop that will enhance their professional life. From this, only a 30 sec clip will be shown in your tonight's evening news. The sadest is that most of the world public opinion (like yours which I respect but don't share) will be made of these slices of life. And then, you know, outsiders will be tempted to adopt the "common sense" opinion.

By the way, have you ever been abroad when a significant local event arrives at home (say, murder of Olof Plame)? It is very instructive to follow the comments of foreign reporters to the situation that you know damn well. In another forum we could chat about my knowledge of the story of your Prime assasination and you would probably be surprised how biaised my opinion would be...

When you watch news, think twice ... and then think again.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander
still alive lamplighter? no muslims invaded denmark yet?
read this while its still time:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0408-03.htm

from Chicago Tribune

"The Israelis are becoming increasingly like the white supremacist South Africans, viewing the Palestinians as a lower form of life, not hesitating to kill a great many of them and justifying this on the grounds that they are being the objects of terrorism, which is true. But their reactions are all out of proportion . . . "

Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter and respected foreign policy intellectual, speaking during a recent broadcast of PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer.

I like this, but what the hell, what does this guy know about national security and politics? :rolleyes:

The invasion of Denmark began a long time ago and in any event what's your point?

You want me to read a two-bit article and I'll tell you straight out that I'm not going to bother.

The Palestinians have already admitted that there was no massacre so the case is moot. So if you want to go on beating a dead horse go ahead.

[cerulean]

These Palestinian efforts (exhuming bodies to add to the count, placing animal carcasses in the camp, and now staging funerals) would be comedic if the results weren't so deadly serious.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=158947&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

[L@mplighterM]

Hey takeo or Northlander pass this on to your Muslim brothers. They can pick up 120,000 corpses in Algiers.


ALGIERS, May 02, 2002 (The Canadian Press via COMTEX) -- Thirty-one people were dead and five others injured in two separate attacks in Algeria, the country's official news service reported Thursday. The attacks occurred late Wednesday in the Tiaret region, about 340 kilometres west of the North African country's capital, the APS news agency said. The Armed Islamic Group, Algeria's most radical insurgency movement, is active in the area, though there was no immediate claim of responsibility.

The assailants killed 20 people and wounded five others in an attack in Ksar-Chellala, a town just outside Tiaret. Another attack left 11 dead in the Tiaret neighbourhood of Sidi-Khaled.

More than 120,000 people have died in Algeria's Islamic insurgency, which broke out in 1992 when the army cancelled elections that a fundamentalist party was expected to win.

In an effort to reconcile the country, President Abdelaziz Bouteflika promised amnesty to rebels willing to turn in their weapons. The army has been hunting down groups that refused the amnesty and have been hiding out in isolated mountains and forests.

Since the beginning of the year, more than 400 people have died in attacks attributed to the Armed Islamic Group and the Salafist Group for Call and Combat.

The online source for news sports entertainment finance and business news in Canada

Copyright (C) 2002 The Canadian Press (CP), All rights reserved

[JustPat]

Brezinski and Carter, now there's legacy of foreign policy! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by NewsGuy The drafters of Resolution 242 -- the British Ambassador to the UN in 1967, Lord Caradon, and the American Ambassador, Arthur Goldberg -- specifically did not call for Israel's return to the pre-1967 borders...I am sorry to say that the base read of the Resolution appears to be just exaclty what has been implied. One should however read the commentary of the the author and his contemporaries. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0cyv0

Text of UN Resolution 242 regarding the pullout of conquerored territories"Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
- Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
Here is the key point though: Israel was to pull out so as to return that land to it's previous owners - NONE OF WHOM WERE THE PALESTINIANS. Since those lands have since been officially ceded to Israel, Israel is now the legal owner and has every right to do with them as she pleases. The concept of Areas A/B being under the title deed of the Palestinians is but a pipe dream.

The Camp David Accords establish a framework for resolution fo the status of the West Bank and Gaza. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ie0 CDA gave nothing more than a framework for the procedure toward that end.

The Oslo Agreement of 1993 http://www.iap.org/oslo.htm and the Oslo II Agreement of 1995 http://www.pna.org/mininfo/key/oslo2.htm tasks Israel with the general security of the West Bank and Gaza. This most recent action is well within the scope ot that agreements.

I guess that those who tout insistence that Israel abide by and honor Res 242 and the Oslo Accords have Robert Blake Disease, they simply have lost the ability to read.

[Mediocrates]

Res 242 is PREDICATED on a cessation of violence against Israel. That is, once there is a stable non porus border and a quell in the murdering THEN Res 242 can be executed.

[Vic]

Originally posted by JustPat
Since those lands have since been officially ceded to Israel, Israel is now the legal owner and has every right to do with them as she pleases. The concept of Areas A/B being under the title deed of the Palestinians is but a pipe dream.
Could you be more precise on this please? Who exactly ceded what (officially) to Israel and when did it happen?

[Gatorade]

Memri Article (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=palestinian&ID=IA9002)

The Palestinian Account of the Battle of Jenin

The Arab media has in recent days focused much attention on the consequences of the Jenin refugee camp battle, which according to their reports, resulted in a massacre, perpetuated by the Israeli army. At the same time, the Arab media published numerous testimonies given by commanders of the Palestinian factions in Jenin, both during the conflict and after it ended, regarding the fighting. Following are excerpts from these accounts:

Fighting the IDF

Sheikh Jamal Abu Al-Hija, the commander of the Hamas Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades in the Jenin refugee camp, told the Hamas website in an interview that the members of the various factions, "along with volunteers from the Palestinian security forces," prepared in advance for the Israeli incursion.[1] Sheikh Abu Al-Hija provided more details on the fighting by phone to the Qatari television channel Al-Jazeera, saying, "[We placed] explosive devices on the roads and in the houses; surprises [await] the occupation forces. In several places, there are clashes between the Mujahideen[2] and the occupation forces… The occupation forces flee in panic from the Jenin camp – but they escalate by using tractors, airplanes, and tanks against the camp. The truth is that the fighting is being conducted from neighborhood to neighborhood, like guerilla warfare. The Mujahideen are using automatic rifles, explosive devices, and hand grenades…"[3]

The London based Arabic-language daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat quoted Sheikh Abu Al-Hija as saying, "The fighting forces, from all the factions in the camp, have been equipped with explosive belts and grenades."[4] Sheikh Abu-Al-Hija told the Jordanian weekly Al-Sabil, "The Mujahideen managed to besiege nine Zionist soldiers inside one of the houses, and attacked them using hand grenades and bombs until the entire house went up in flames with the soldiers of the occupation inside. Witnesses said that the occupation forces extracted the soldiers charred and burned."[5]

Palestinian Children and School Bags Filled with Explosives The Islamic Jihad commander in the Jenin refugee camp, Abu Jandal ,[6] was interviewed several times by Al-Jazeera during the fighting. In one conversation, Abu Jandal said: "This is the second successive day that the Israeli occupation forces are trying [to enter the camp] with the help of Apache helicopters and tanks.

But the steadfastness of the fighters, who swore at the beginning of the battle not to permit [the IDF] to advance towards this camp, defends the honor of the Arab nation from the alleys of the Jenin refugee camp. There were several attempts from several routes, but these were blocked. The truth is that our fighters have switched to an offensive; today we went on the offensive. The Israeli unit commander was killed this morning, 50 meters from the place from which I am speaking to you. I, the commander of the battle of the Jenin camp, have chosen for myself the name 'The Martyr Abu Jandal,' because all the fighters around me are martyrs. Believe me, there are children stationed in the houses with explosive belts at their sides… Today, one of the children came to me with his school bag. I asked him what he wanted, and he replied, 'Instead of books, I want an explosive device, in order to attack…'"

Asked how long his men would be able to stand against the Israeli military when all they had were light weapons, Abu Jandal replied: "No. That's not true. We have the weapon of surprise. We have the weapon of honor. We have the divine weapon, the weapon of Allah who stands at our side. We have weapons that are better than theirs. I am the one with the truth, and I put my faith in Allah, while they put their faith in a tank."[7]

Sheikh Abu Al-Hija also stated, "Some of the youths stood fast, and filled their school bags with explosive devices."[ 8] On another occasion, Sheikh Abu Al-Hija had difficulty assessing the number of Israeli victims: "It is hard to provide accurate data, and we cannot assess the battle by counting enemy losses. But the enemy's acknowledgement of 24 killed and 130 wounded attests that it has taken many losses. The list announced by the occupation army includes only the names of the Jews [killed] and disregards the names of the Druze and the Lahad soldiers [i.e. South Lebanon Army] who participated in all past incursions and [will participate] in the future as well. Our estimate is that the enemy has suffered much greater losses."[9]

Al-Sharq Al-Awsat reported that in Jenin, a Palestinian woman named Ilham 'Ali Dasouqi had blown herself up among Israeli soldiers, killing two and wounding six. The paper quoted a source in the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, who said that she had "followed the path of Nasser 'Uweis," who the paper said had blown himself up near soldiers in Nablus.[10] However, 'Uweis, the commander of Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades in Samaria, was arrested several days later. It appears that the reports of his death in a suicide bombing were an attempt to facilitate his escape.

The Egyptian government-sponsored Al-Ahram Weekly ran an interview with "Omar," a young, one-armed Islamic Jihad bomb maker known as an 'engineer' who discussed how the Palestinians booby-trapped Jenin, including the participation of women and children in the battles.[11] "He is a member of the Islamic Jihad, but says in Jenin all the factions were loyal to only one cause: liberation or death…' Of all the fighters in the West Bank we were the best prepared,' he says. 'We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month.'"

The newspaper explained: "Omar and other 'engineers' made hundreds of explosive devices and carefully chose their locations. 'We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them,' [Omar] said. 'We cut off lengths of main water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four meters apart throughout the houses – in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas. ' The fighters hoped to disable the Israeli army's tanks with much more powerful bombs placed inside garbage bins on the street. More explosives were hidden inside the cars of Jenin's most wanted men. Connected by wires, the bombs were set off remotely, triggered by the current from a car battery."

"According to Omar, everyone in the camp, including the children, knew where the explosives were located so that there was no danger of civilians being injured. It was the one weakness in the plan. 'We were betrayed by the spies among us,' he says. The wires to more than a third of the bombs were cut by soldiers accompanied by collaborators. 'If it hadn't been for the spies, the soldiers would never have been able to enter the camp. Once they penetrated the camp, it was much harder to defend it.'"

"And what about the explosion and ambush last Tuesday which killed 13 soldiers? 'They were lured there,' he says. 'We all stopped shooting and the women went out to tell the soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving.' The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby-trapped area. 'When the senior officers realized what had happened, they shouted through megaphones that they wanted an immediate cease-fire. We let them approach to retrieve the men and then opened fire. Some of the soldiers were so shocked and frightened that they mistakenly ran towards us.'"

Jamal Huweil, an Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades commander in the Jenin camp, told the London-based Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat that "four Israeli soldiers were killed and [the Palestinians] took their automatic weapons. The youths with the explosive devices also put four Israeli tanks out of commission."[ 12]

Raed 'Abbas, a fighter from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) in the Jenin camp, told Al-Hayat, "All the fighters were sworn to fight to the end… We have no choice but to fight, and this is the decision of all the fighters. The talk of fighters surrendering is completely untrue. If it were true, how come two Israeli soldiers were killed Monday morning? We estimate that their losses are much greater than what they are reporting. Battles between them and us are being waged at extremely short range. They have failed in all their attempts to advance, and our fighters are blowing themselves up in front of them and planting explosive devices on the roads. The situation is extremely dire. The [Israeli] air force is continuing its bombing. A few moments ago they launched several missiles, which set fire to many houses."[13]

All the Palestinians who were interviewed emphasized their intent to fight to the death, even in the last days of the battle. Sheikh Abu Al-Hija was quoted by the United Arab Emirate (UAE) daily Al-Bayan as saying, "After these days of steadfastness and unique resistance, the fighters in Jenin reiterate their motto: 'No surrender – either victory or martyrdom.' Our strength lies in our being true Mujahideen in the face of the new Nazis."[14] Unidentified Palestinian sources added, "The ammunition of the fighters in the camp has run out, and they have chosen martyrdom. They are fighting with knives and stones, and blowing themselves up in front of the soldiers of the occupation."[15] Haj 'Ali, a commander of the Islamic Jihad's Al-Quds Brigades, said that the Palestinian resistance persists in its intense fighting, and will not permit the soldiers of the occupation to take over the camp.[16]

[Gatorade]

memri article cont (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=palestinian&ID=IA9002)

Civilians and Fighters

Some of the Palestinian's interviewed discussed the role played by the civilian population in the fighting. However, their reports regarding whether civilians left the camp were contradictory:

Sheikh Abu Al-Hija said, "Even the youths had a significant role in the uprising. They refused to leave the camp before the incursion, and most of them are now under arrest by the occupation forces… No one was asked to stay or go; no instructions were issued to the residents by the fighters, and the choice remained in their own hands. It was necessary for some of the women to remain [in the camp] to provide services for the fighters. The behavior of the residents was honorable; they were determined to remain, to go through everything the Mujahideen are going through, and to provide them with services."

"…When some Mujahideen ran out of ammunition, they leaped onto the tanks in an attempt to grab weapons from the soldiers, who were hiding inside the tanks. As a result, some of them engaged in barehanded combat with the Zionist soldiers. Some of the youths steadfastly filled their school bags with explosive devices; some of the boys remained without food or water for four days. Although the women knew how bad the situation was, a large portion of them preferred to remain, to prepare food for the Mujahideen, to risk their lives by bringing water for them, and to raise morale – something that greatly encouraged [their] steadfastness."[17]

However, other Palestinians who were interviewed reported that most of the civilians left the refugee camps. The commander of Hamas members in the Jenin camp, Jamal 'Abd Al-Salam, said that the women, children, and elderly had left the camp, and that the fighters intended to fight to the last drop of blood.[ 18] Another man, Abu Muhammad, reported to Al-Jazeera from Jenin: "Every time [the IDF] tries to advance, a surprise awaits it – the blowing up of one of the buildings in the Jenin camp. Then they rush to retrieve the Israeli bodies and wounded, withdraw, and try to advance Israeli tractors that destroy houses indiscriminately on top of their owners, whether they are in the houses or not. They have sent away most of the civilians [from the refugee camp], but there is still a large number of civilians inside the camp."[19]

On this matter, Raed 'Abbas, the DFLP commander, said that the Israelis "destroyed many houses. They are trying to wreak vengeance upon the civilians. The army is evacuating the [residents of the] camp forcibly, in order to close in more and more on the fighters."[20]

In contrast, the Islamic Jihad announced that its commander in Jenin, Muhammad Tawalbeh, had prevented civilians from leaving the camp. The Islamic Jihad website announced that Tawalbeh died in his booby-trapped home when he blew it up on the Israeli soldiers inside it on April 6. The announcement went on to say that Tawalbeh "had thwarted all attempts by the occupation to evacuate the camp residents to make it easier for the Israelis to destroy [the camp] on the heads of the fighters."[ 2]1

[B]The Future of the Struggle

Sheikh Abu Al-Hija insisted that it was necessary to learn from the battle in the Jenin refugee camp. "We are proud [of the battle], and hope that it will serve as a model for the rest of the cities, so that there [too] the residents will be materially and morally prepared for any confrontation. We need to learn the lessons from this battle, and I hope the few dozen fighters who managed to face down the most arrogant army in the region will serve as a lesson for the Arab armies. The Arab peoples must learn from these victories, and not remain captives in the hands of the regimes that keep their basic rights from them…"

"The camp took a hard blow – but even had the blow killed us, they would not have killed the [armed] resistance. It will not be long until the ranks fill [again], until a new generation takes the uprising into its hands and raises the flag anew. This is not the first battle, nor the last. Our people will not be still until it sees our land liberated and independent."[22]

"Abu Ahmad," an Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades leader in the Jenin refugee camp, said in a telephone conversation with the Hizbullah weekly Al-Intiqad, "The Palestinian resistance will carry out more operations like the martyrdom operation in Haifa, in order to emphasize that it still exists and that it maintains its strength and its capability in spite of the blows [it has taken]. The martyrdom operation by 'Andalib Taqatqah [in Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda market] is proof of the [Al-Aqsa Martyr] Brigades' capability of striking at the [Zionist] entity any time, anywhere… Martyrdom operations were invented during the time when the Zionists occupied the West Bank, and it does not matter much whether the [forces] are in the cities or outside the cities."[23]

'Ali Safouri, a commander of Islamic Jihad's Al-Quds Brigades in the Jenin camp, reported to the Islamic Jihad website in the early days of the fighting: "We have prepared unexpected surprises for the enemy. We are determined to pay him back double, and teach him a lesson he will not forget… We will attack him on the home front, in Jerusalem, in Haifa, and in Jaffa, everywhere. We welcome them, and we have prepared a special graveyard in the Jenin camp for them. We swore on the martyrs that we would place a curfew on the Zionist cities and avenge every drop of blood spilled upon our sacred land. We call on the soldiers of Sharon to refuse his orders, because entering the [Jenin] camp… the capital of the martyrs' [operations], will, Allah willing, be the last thing they do in their lives."[24]

In an interview with Al-Manar, the Hizbullah television channel, Islamic Jihad leader Dr. Ramadan Abdallah Shalah, stated as follows: "The fighters in the [Jenin] camp told us that this is a 'hit-and-not-run' battle, and that they are fighting to the last drop of blood and to the last bullet – and that is what they did. The Zionist enemy thinks he is creating a Palestinian Masada for us – that is, that we have chosen to commit suicide – but we say to him that he is mistaken. We are not creating a Palestinian Masada, but a Palestinian Karbalaa,[25] which will hasten the second Jewish Masada… until the Zionist entity ceases to exist… Today the Jenin camp was reborn, not destroyed…"[26]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] www.palestine-info.info, April 20, 2002.

[2] i.e. Jihad warriors.

[3] Al-Jazeera (Qatar), April 8, 2002.

[4] Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), April 7, 2002.

[5] Cited in Al-Shaab (Egypt), April 19, 2002.

[6] The Palestine Center for Human Rights, Weekly Report on Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, April 11-17, 2002. Aft7r his death in the battle was reported, it was announced that his real name was Hazem Ahmad Rayhan Qabha.

[7] Al-Jazeera (Qatar), April 4, 2002.

[8] www.palestine-info.info, April 20, 2002.

[9] www.palestine-info.info, April 20, 2002.

[10] Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), April 7, 2002.

[11] www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/582/6inv2.htm.

[12] Al-Hayat (London), April 5, 2002.

[13] Al-Hayat (London), April 9, 2002.

[14] Al-Bayan (United Arab Emirates), April 10, 2002.

[15] Al-Bayan (United Arab Emirates), April 11, 2002.

[16] Al-Jazeera (Qatar), April 8, 2002.

[17] www.palestine-info.info, April 20, 2002.

[18] Al-Jazeera (Qatar), April 8, 2002.

[19] Al-Jazeera (Qatar), April 8, 2002.

[20] Al-Hayat (London), April 9, 2002.

[21] www.jihadonline.org, April 10, 2002.

[22] www.palestine-info.info, April 20, 2002.

[23] Al-Intiqad (Lebanon), April 19, 2002.

[24] www.qudsway.com, April 3, 2002.

[25] In the battle of Karbula (680) Hussein, the leader of the Shi'itels, was canonized.

[26] Al-Manar Television (Lebanon), April 10, 2002, cited at www.jihadonline.org.

[JustPat]

Well Done!

[Vic]

Looks like the fighters, or whatever they can be called, in the camp never lifted a finger to protect civilians, on the contrary, they took pains to draw fire on them.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Vic Could you be more precise on this please? Who exactly ceded what (officially) to Israel and when did it happen? In order to fully appreciate the changes that have taken place in the geography and domain of Israel in the past 54 years we must look to the maps.

In 1948 Israel was granted land under the partition agreement that is shown on the map found at http://www.mapshift.com/maps/catalogue.htm. As you will see, the borders have changed several times over the last 54 years, with Israel being the main beneficiary. Most of the lands represent lands acquired as the result of war with the Arab neighbors who felt it necessary to try and invade Israel and exterminate her from existence. Their misfortune was to seek a plan and purpose which was in opposition the that of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Since its re-creation in 1948, Israel has possessed lands once held by Egypt, Jordan, "Palestine", Syria, and Lebanon. It's greatest holdings are seen on the map of 24 October 1973. Though these lands are "conquered and possessed," in today's global politic those conquered must agree to or cede the land conquered. Concerning the Golan, Syria is on record as refusing to accept Israel's land gains and has agreed to leave Israel in possession of the ground taken, but only conceding that the ground is occupied territory.
Originally posted by Vic "The Syrian representative stresses the cease-fire line thus established is a purely practical arrangement for the specific purpose of facilitating the observation by the United Nations of the cease fire and should not affect or prejudice the claims and positions of the Syrian Government. He emphasizes that the Israel forces are in Syrian territory. The Syrian side asserts the following: `On the morning of 9th June 1967, when both Syria and Israel had announced their acceptance of the cease fire, the Israelis were not at that time at any point beyond the armistice line established by the armistice agreement of 1949 (see green line on map attached as annex B).* The Israelis continued their firing on the morning of 9th June and repeated their attacks on Syrian positions. At the end of the day of 9th June, when the Security Council ordered cease fire at 1520 GMT, they reached the violet line shown on the map as annex B and they stopped at the line until the morning of 10th June. Then on 10th June, they resumed firing. At 1630 GMT, the time-limit for the cease fire ordered for the third time by the Security Council, they reached the orange line indicated also on the map attached as annex B. After that, they used same helicopters with a certain number of soldiers to reach new points well advanced and near from battle lines.'" http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/45996cc3259e1c9c052567270057ac6f/7d7d231eb99b0f010525655a0050cd85!OpenDocument
Jordan has annexed and ceded land that Israel now holds. In 1949 we see the first reference to ceding land. "1949 - Jordan cedes to Israel a strip of land extending south to Kafr Qasim including numerous Arab villages" http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/Leafcopy/630-5.htm From the same timeline we get the annexation of the West Bank by Jordan. "1950 - Jordan incorporates the West Bank, including the Old City of Jerusalem"
Originally posted by Vic Jordan cedes the West Bank & East Jerusalem, including Haram al-Sharif shrine (7Jun).http://middleeast.reference.users.btopenworld.com/Chronology2.html (an excellent resource)
Egypt and Israel have exchanged the Sinai at least twice since 1948. Currently it is under Egyptian authority.
South Lebanon was negotiated as a "buffer zone" for Israel's security interests. Since Lebanon is a puppet of Syria, it was negotiated with Syria and stands as such today.

I trust this is detailed enough for you. There is a wealth of information on the Web. Happy surfing! :D


An excellent compilation of UN Actions is found at http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/resolutions.html