Need for unilateral actions/tacit understandings

[David A]

Some observations:

1. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a protacted struggle.

2. The Palestinians will never sign any kind of peace treaty with Israel. Such a treaty would be political (if not actual) suicide for the Palestinian leader who signed it.

3. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are going to prevail in their struggle through their use of force (AT LEAST NOT IN THE WAY THAT THEY ARE USING FORCE AT THIS TIME).

So, let's focus discussions here in Israelforum.com on feasible unilateral actions that each side can take to advance the situation towards a lasting solution.

To the Israelis, I'd say: unilaterally pull out at least the most obnoxious of the west bank settlements and check points. Why keep in place such provocations? Those settlements and check points are not helping Israel's cause.

To the Palestinians, I'd say: forsake suicide bombers and concentrate on protests in the west bank. The message, "get tanks out of my neighborhood" sells well, but the message, "wipe Israel off the map" does not sell at all.

Thoughts?

[Jorge]

Re. to David A., on unilateral actions....

I think your new thread it's an interesting one. Right now the atmosphere is so charged that may be the only way is to diffuse the hostility through unilateral actions.
As a first step Israel should end the house arrest of Arafat in Ramalah. The whole excercise has proved futile; Europe,the
US and others agree on considering him as the unquestioned leader of the palestinians. Besides if, as you propose, there should be unilateral actions taken by both sides, as long as Arafat is kept in Limbo, no one else will be able or willing to
take any decision on the palestinian side.
A second step from the israeli side could be to announce
the intention to dismantle the settlements in the Gaza Strip.
I think that some sort of broad consensus (excluding of course
extreme right wing parties) could be reached in Israel about this subject.

[Mediocrates]

ok so that's two things the Jews have to do. Next?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by David A
Some observations:

1. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a protacted struggle.



What is a protected struggle?

[Gatorade]

Originally posted by David A
Some observations:

2. The Palestinians will never sign any kind of peace treaty with Israel. Such a treaty would be political (if not actual) suicide for the Palestinian leader who signed it.



Your point number two says a lot and is accurate.

The current Palestinian leaders have done a horrible job preparing the next generation for peace.

[Vic]

Originally posted by David A


To the Israelis, I'd say: unilaterally pull out at least the most obnoxious of the west bank settlements and check points. Why keep in place such provocations? Those settlements and check points are not helping Israel's cause.

To the Palestinians, I'd say: forsake suicide bombers and concentrate on protests in the west bank. The message, "get tanks out of my neighborhood" sells well, but the message, "wipe Israel off the map" does not sell at all.

Thoughts?
Your recommendations to the Israelis and Palestinians are a bit asymmetrical.

From the Israelis you demand steps that are easy to define and not entirely easy but possible to accomplish. They wouldn't result in a major change of Israeli position.

From the other side you demand nothing less than a revolution. Ideas like yours are marvellous when based on the presumption that what we see is a normal struggle between an unwilling and clumsy occupier and a national liberation movement, that the latter has a political cause, that it intends to achieve a solution. I doubt that. I doubt there is much sense in saying something "to the Palestinians". I live in Europe and I assure you that the message "wipe Israel off the map" sells just fine down here, but "get tanks out of my neighborhood" is not exciting enough to the man in the street: there are after all dozens if not hundreds of places in the world where people demand exactly the same, so why bother about that particular case? The Palestinians' popularity is based precisely on the fact that they massacre Jews on a unique scale, the day the would "renounce violence" no one would give a damn about them. It would be the death of the "Palestinian cause" as it exists now, and the Palestinians would have to start from the scratch, without any more support from the rest of the world that an average Third World country or minority group can expect to recieve. Just imagine it. No more kaffiyas on European streets, no more Palestinian flags on "progressive" university campuses, no more front page photos, no million man rallies denouncing "zionism". Worse still, this way they might actually get Israel to withdraw, and without loss of life (no blood, no dead infants, no bombs, no journalists, no activists from around the world, no major issue for the UN, no interviews on the CNN - a horrible perspective...).

Dear David A., you are not serious about asking Palestinians to commit political suicide, are you?

I'm afraid there is no such thing as "feasible unilateral action" in this conflict because the external factor is currently the strongest one. The Palestinians thrive on it (in a pretty perverse way), the Israelis are too weak against it. Unilateral action would only make sense if the Palestinians and the Israelis were the major players in the so-called Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I'd be happy to discuss the question of how to make this happen. At the moment I must admit I have no idea :-)

[David A]

Originally posted by sharonbn


What is a protected struggle?

I said "protracted" (i.e. long, drawn out, no end in sight, ...). I didn't say, "protected".

[David A]

To Vic:

I want to make sure that in replying to you, that I understand you correctly. It seems that you are saying that there is a certain, virulent streak running through the Palestinian populace and through their sympathizers in Europe. I think that you are also saying that the Palestinians would never settle for an independent country comprised of the west bank and gaza strip. Therefore, I think that your conclusion is that the Palestinians will never change their ways (i.e. no matter what, so long as there is a jewish state of Israel, they'll always call for the destruction of Israel, lob rockets into Israel from whereever they can, send in suicide bombers, etc...).

I guess my response is this: The Palestinians have got to do something. Just encouraging more violence isn't helping them (would you want to live in Jenin or Ramallah these days?).

[David A]

To complete the thought, when I said "do something", I meant "do something peaceful".

[ibrodsky]

The basic question here is whether the Palestinians can be led to a peaceful solution. The alternative is to deal them such a resounding military defeat that they will turn their attention to building their own state and economy rather than throw away everything on terrorism.

Having followed the conflict all of my life, and having studied the region's history, I am amazed that people do not see a simple fact: each concession given or offered by Israel is seen by those bent on Israel's destruction as a sign of weakness.

However, there may be value in unilaterally defining borders and withdrawing to behind them. I have no doubt that terrorist attacks would continue -- even if Israel withdrew to the '67 borders. Note that in Lebanon Israel has withdrawn completely as certified by the UN, yet Hezbollah has simply redrawn maps of the region to justify ongoing conflict on the northern border.

One way or another, Israel is going to have to completely crush the terrorist PA and Arafat will have to be replaced. It seems the current strategy is to simply wait for Arafat to die of natural causes. There is fear that killing him would cause the "Arab street" to erupt, and that he might be replaced by someone better able to articulate the Palestinian cause. The first concern is mythical, the second is foolish.

I agree that Israel should take unilateral action. I think Sharon was finally doing so, but has now been distracted by US efforts to "diffuse" the situation and get the two sides back on track toward a negotiated settlement. The US hopes by doing so it can win the cooperation of "moderate" Arabs to overthrow Saddam Hussein.

Unfortunately, there are some basic facts that are being overlooked:

1. Arafat used the Oslo "Peace Process" to turn the territories into a terrorist society. His rejection of Barak's proposal and violation of his previous agreement not to resort to violence should have been sufficient to convince anyone paying attention that he does not seek a peaceful solution.

2. Arab leaders say they are against terrorism, but the Arab world continues to excuse, justify, and support terrorism. They have created an elaborate code for yielding to US pressure to condemn terrorist attacks -- a code in which it is understood by fellow Arabs they are really condemning Israel, not the terrorists.

3. The Bush administration has fallen prey to the notion that terrorists can be dissuaded or even rehabilitated. This is an understandble response, as killing or capturing all terrorists is clearly impossible. But it is also a mistaken response, based on the false claim that military action breeds more terrorists. Actually, what breeds terrorists is the impression that terrorism works.

Now is the time for Israel to finish the job of crushing the PA's terrorist infrastructure. The Arab world will make many threats, but they are impotent. We will only start to see movement towards peace when the Arabs start saying among themselves that terrorism is getting them nowhere.

[Northlander]

So, let's focus discussions here in Israelforum.com on feasible unilateral actions that each side can take to advance the situation towards a lasting solution.

Well David A. Considering how hard it is to get the pro-israelis on this forum to come with constructive proposals on how to solve this conflict I think we can say its going to be hard.
2. The Palestinians will never sign any kind of peace treaty with Israel. Such a treaty would be political (if not actual) suicide for the Palestinian leader who signed it.
I dont agree to that.
3. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are going to prevail in their struggle through their use of force (AT LEAST NOT IN THE WAY THAT THEY ARE USING FORCE AT THIS TIME).
I agree, Israel would have won long time ago if that was possible.

first comment on Vic
I live in Europe and I assure you that the message "wipe Israel off the map" sells just fine down here,

absolute BS. Not true at all.

finally I have some points I think is essential for peace.

1. The palestinians and other neighbouring countries must once and for all recognice Israels right to exist. Something that arafat already have done but far from all palestinians.
In return Israel should:

2. Return all occupied areas and withdraw ALL settlements. That will probably lead to violence between IDF and fanatical settlers but it has to be done. Im sure IDF can handle them.

Since this wont happen as long as bombs go of Israels security must be guaranteed. PA cant control the terrorists right now, and Im sure they would want that even though I will hear otherwise from the israelis here. But since Israel must see that the terrorattacks on them stops and since PA cant guarantee it I belive THAT is the most important question. My sollution there is:

3. PA and Israel must both accept that WB and Gaza gets under the control from not only the UN but USA as well.
US troops to get Israel to feel safe since they dont trust UN troops from any other country and UN troops to prevent the palestinians from feeling they just got a new IDF on them. When the troops have come they must take control fast and work and streangthen PA. All palestinian organisations that still dont accepts Israels right to exist must be dealt with by any means necessary from PA as they are a threat for PA as much as Israel or even more since they will just result in another occupation from Israel. IDF must keep out at all times and concentrate on securing inside israel and prevent their fantatics from doing stuff. PA must work with US and UN troops at all time cause it calms down all feelings when it comes to the inevidable fighting against terrorists. But at least its not Israelis that search out their houses heavily armed.

If in this initial period it goes of a bomb from a single suicide bomber Israel should calm down and wait for PA and US/UN troops to remove terrorists and wait for the support of those terrorgroup to vanish. When people in WB/Gaza starts to feel safe and sees that life is better without IDF and that the areas starting to rebuild by money from EU they will have no interest in supporting attacks on israel that only will result in new troubles.
that will isolate hamas and others from the palestinian interests and they will easily be crushed without support from the average palestinian.

[Mediocrates]

So if a bomb goes off in a London pub and some 'militant wing' of th IRA claims credit then the Bitish army should invade IReland? See the problem with "by any means necessary" solutions after the fact is that they are never implemented because its too late to be effective and world opinion has already moved past it. Let's say for the sake of argument that "official" PLO gets this:

Free Palestine
No Jews
Divided Jerusalem

So by the apologists here - even that (really) isn't what's expected of the Jews to surrender, let alone what the real Palestinian fighters want, will demand and will fight for. Now as we've seen before, the my-own-people-as-human-shields approach has worked because:

A dead civilian is a ready made prime time martyr
CNN gets another mangled puupy sound byte
The hide behind their supporters anyway - so how can one tell the good guys from the bad guys.

So bombs still go off, shootings still go on....

And ther remediation is.....
(now remember you can't pressure Arafat because he's weak, you can't intrude into Palestine because that's invasion, you can't target leaders because that's assassination, you can't shoot back because of the human shields, UN workers, news people, the French and a hundred other defenders of terrorists, uh I mean activists, uh I mean innocent bystanders...)

So your "by any means necessary" plan is:_________________?

a) Scold the PLO in the strongest possible language up to but not exceeding the point where they might get their feelings hurt.
b) Give the PLO minister in the US an open mike on CNN so he can blame the Jews with 10 minutes of canned agitprop.
c) Interview Christopher Hitchens who will then blame the US.
d) Ask the UN to send some observers into Israel to dig up data to accuse them of war crimes
e) Start a trade embargo against someone - it doesn't really matter who as long as the name of the country starts with an I and ends with an L.
f) Ask the Saudis if they would still support a US decapitation of the Iraqi regime if they were told in passing that their peace initiative didn't really work so well.
g) Tell the Syrians to pull the leash on the terrorist groups they host courtesy of Iranian money. Maybe they don't get TV news there and didn't hear about it.


yeah I thought so.

[Mediocrates]

My point is that all unilateral, and by that I feel secure the true meaning is Israeli political unilateral, actions accomplish is to push off the hard choices to other people and later times.

We should be ready to treat Palestine no different from how we treat Hati. Give away a few, finite, well defined chances to screw up and if they exceed that then send in the army and replace the government, replace the police force, demob the local 'security forces', put the 'refugee camps' a.k.a. bad neighborhoods under coalition forces' non UN control and start over. We've done it for years all over the world and it has as much a chance of success as anything else proposed. Somebody give me a reason why this is impossible that doesn't include the usual "we're arabs and this is different, the street will explode" horseshit.

Because the fact is, and the left and the media and the Arab world really REALLY needs to get this one concept through their thick goddamn heads, if the Palestinian want to be free then they will demand it and whether their own leaders will help them or not will determine if their own leaders get to stay in charge. They themselves will force the issue. They can sit in squalor and watch history pass them by like last year's fashion statement or they can take control of their own destiny. They can drive out the radicals themselves if they want to bad enough.

We hear over and over that the average Palestinian wants peace and prosperity on equal terms with the Jews. Let's say that its time to stop screaming for Jewish blood and time to jumpstart their own lives. It can't be impossible after all their next door neighbors, in the face of incredible odds have done it for 54 years turning a brown rock into a green garden. Ok let's do that.

You know we learn from history that all successful revolutions come from the middle class and if anything, the Palestinians are a developed middle class with education and drive. Yes, contrary to popular opinion most Palestinians are middle class and if you provided a stable economy for them the cries of 'death to the Jews' and the cries for ingathering would evaporate overnight. Similarly, if anything, the economic boom in Ireland during the 1990's is what gave rise to the failure of a terrorist solution for the IRA, more than anything else and so to here in the West Bank and Gaza the same solution waits.

We hear endlessly about the frustration and anger of the 'street'. But what is that? It's displeasure at their lot in life brought on by the block headed glory seeking stupid incompetent policies of their so called leaders, who if they had different names and different costumes would look like Mobutu, Idi Amin, and the usual gang of corrupt, stealing thugs steeped in fake Marxism as a cover for their own astonishing failures, stupidity, arrogance and greed.

Any other proposal is the kind of paternal benign neglect that the west is always criticized for allowing to happen. Taking care of the Palestinians like they really are helpless and hopeless is as big an insult as any perceived threat of zionism. And if the Palestinians don't understand or deny that one simple truth then the legacy of the Palestinians really will be the sound of a whole country flushing itself down the drain and history will record it as just another culture that tried to kill all the Jews and failed. Life is hard - get a helmet.

[Northlander]

now we are there again. I thought you wanted to solve your conflict with the palestinians not the whole islamistic world? syria and iraq and whatever. Lets wait and see about Iraq for a year or so please.
By any means necessary I meant that for PA to deal with elements wanting to destroy Israel they probably will have to do some fighting. Not IDF style but when ordinary palestinians get at least some things they want, terrorism will lose in importance. The terrorists will lose alot of support and PA WITH help will be better in searching out those individuals and put them to trial.
OR as im sure will be the case in the beginning kill some of them.
That would satisfy some of the most bloddthirsty israelis Im sure.
Still waiting for your proposals for peace.
Plz ANYBODY here must have an idea or do you prefer the usual ways:

1. Let IDF search for terrorists but kill civilians.
2. continue to whine about the evil anti-semitic europeans
3. continue to compare your own country to fundamentalist regimes in the area
4. send in some more settlers on land that are not yours
5. continue to say that the land in point 4 are yours cause you won it in battle
6. refuse to obey even more UN resolutions
7. break the geneva conventions on a weekly basis

[Northlander]

sorry mediocrates your post came while I was writing.
well, it was a proposal and I even agree to some of it
like:
You know we learn from history that all successful revolutions come from the middle class and if anything, the Palestinians are a developed middle class with education and drive. Yes, contrary to popular opinion most Palestinians are middle class and if you provided a stable economy for them the cries of 'death to the Jews' and the cries for ingathering would evaporate overnight. Similarly, if anything, the economic boom in Ireland during the 1990's is what gave rise to the failure of a terrorist solution for the IRA, more than anything else and so to here in the West Bank and Gaza the same solution waits.

Its the way to get there that differs. I too think that the biggest change has to come from the palestinians themselves. That goes for extremist jews as well. The thing with the palestinians is that they havent really been given the chance to change.
Your very american way of solveing things might have worked before but it has also put you in a situation where 11th sept could happen. Even worse things can happen i the future with nukes and chemicals. not only we here in the west will pay the price if things continue to escalate. You could surely crush the palestinians as I am sure Iraq will be chrushed soon. The thing is that it will be an endless row of new countries to take the old ones places. Your goodwill is still hurt by a conflict like vietnam.

the biggest reason we even have a problem with fundamentalist islam is that most muslim countries still suffers from western politics. About every dictator or regime in muslimcountries came to power either by US support and arms or russian. there civilwars haev been instigated and supported by west. I dont think you can mention one arabcountry that has been spared from western distabilazation. thats the kind of environments where religous fanatism thrives. Basically I would like to blame most of the islamic fundamentalism on west, therefore Im against a military solution from the US in this conflict even though Im sure it would be able to do. Would only prolong the time it takes to make the muslim countries equal to us and part of the world community. not until then will we see islam lose its importance. As christianity has done here.

[ibrodsky]

Northlander, you simply don't understand Arab culture and politics. Israel has sought the peaceful solution that you think is possible for 54 years. You try to dismiss those who disagree with you as "extremists," but it never occurs to that what is extreme is not our attitudes but the forces that have been trying to destroy Israel since it was founded.

Since it is not Sweden that is threatened, it's easy for you dismiss these facts:

1. PA textbooks show maps of the region with Israel missing
2. Groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad insist they are fighting to liberate "Palestine" from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean
3. The Palestinian people overwhelmingly support terrorist attacks that kill 5-year old Israeli children
4. Iraq, Syria, and most Arab countries refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist
5. Contrary to what you believe, Arafat's PLO never modified its charter to accept Israel's right to exist
6. The jihad against Israel is, for much of the Islamic world, the one and only thing that unites them

If the US were more consistent in its fight against terrorism, and joined forces with Israel to fight the Palestinian groups that have been officially deemed terrorist groups, the conflict would be over in 3 months and the US could move on to removing Saddam Hussein from power.

We were told that the US action in Afghanistan would cause the Arab and Islamic street to explode. What happened? Actually, once they saw the Taliban and Al Qaeda were being thrashed the street went quiet.

Unfortunately, by "diffusing" the situation in Ramallah and Bethlehem, the US is merely giving the terrorist PA a chance to regroup.

There is absolutely no reason why Israel should give back all of the land captured in 1967. If the Arabs didn't want to lose land permanently, they shouldn't have tried to destroy Israel. Divided cities don't work, and Jerusalem belongs to Israel. The fact that there are Arab neighborhoods does not justify dviding the city anymore than the fact there are different ethnic neighborhoods in cities such as Chicago would justify dividing those cities.

[Mediocrates]

Northlander

It interests me little whether 4 or 5 decades ago some petrotyrants were installed by US armies or US dollars. That was then this is now and worrying too much about the dreaded response from Arab militants on a world wide scale is frankly, misplaced. We did nothing to stop the tide of terrorism for years and got clobbered for our denial. Now if the response to action is more of the same then I say 'why not!' Because all of those petrotyrannies now have a track record of nearly a half century we can look on and evaluate. All of them have waged nearly genocidal war against their own people or their neighbors with very little prodding or encouragement from the US or US interests in the last 20 years.

[Northlander]

Mediocrates: I know it interests you little. It always interests brits and americans little why things are like they are. At least that goes for the american public, the people with power Im sure think differently. Your ideas are violent and only effective in a short term. Politics like selling arms to both iraq and Iran during their conflicts and financing armsells with drug money AND later taking out the very same arms in a war is nothing but old fashioned imperialism. Its about power and most of all money. When you consider most people in the world doesnt even know it OR care about it, its really something of an achivement. Still there is always a price to pay. Your way of military interventions will maybe work for some time but creates new problems and it definitely creates hatred against us all.

I dont think you will win this "war against terrorism" the world would maybe be a better place for us all if you did but as I see it your country and a few others created the problems and now when people turn for you to fix this mess i dont think it will happen. Even though NSA and others think this over and over again you will keep on using military strength against terroism. Sooner or later we have a new terrorbalance and then your conventional weapons are more or less useless.
Im not one of them but i dont really think you can understand how much hate your little wars create. It doesnt take a communist or islamist to have anti-american feelings this days.

For every war you gain something and lose something. the bombs on belgrade was hard for alot of europeans not only serbs.
"collateral damage" that gave us an idea of how arabs felt when other arabs get the bombs. I advice against going in to hard on the palestines even if it means they get their own state as in your scenario. Which I of course think they should have.

As for ibrodsky:
well, I think I understand arab culture since I live close to it even here in sweden.
first of all, the only thing that even makes me recognice the right of israel as a country is the fact that it is the only way to get peace there. I can understand its harder for arabs in the region. but i still think they should understand you are there to stay.
I know you feel threatened but you have managed to even gain more territories from all the wars so if anyone should be threatend from the situation it is your neighbours.
As for 1967 it is important that you return land cause you started that war. You can continue to excuse for yourselves that it was an arab provocation but you still started that war. And you will have to return the land sooner or later.

[Mediocrates]

Well golly all us dumb yanks just don't get your subtlety ..~!

Which century do you stop blaming the US? I think it's all France's fault given their treacherous behaviour at the Treaty of Versailles.

[Mediocrates]

I'm listening to Marwan Kanafani of the PA right now on TV. When asked what the PAs plans were now that Arafat is free to move about, he went on a 5 diatribe about how the Israelis have to do this have to do that are guilty of this are guilty of that and so on.

Well at least the lie never changes. I put up a glimmer of an idea and once again if one so much as suggests that the Palestinians take some responsibility for their own destiny I get an earful of evil US evil Israeli agitprop. OK I get it - the Palestinians are never going to be responsible for anything ever under any circumstances whatever the goal or the reality. They are supposed to be kept in a permanent state of infantile helplessness? Is that the EU's ultimate goal? I suppose it looks bad for the EU to promote Palestinian self reliance and deny it simultaneously to N. Ireland.

You know when my children tell me something is 100% my problem I tell them I reserve the right to solve the problem 100% the way I see fit. If you wish to leave the PA completely neutered forever then you shouldn't complain how anyone deals with them.

[Northlander]

Which century do you stop blaming the US?

Probably never as it seems. It was you that thought going in to WB in some sort of "pax americana" operation was a sollution.
You said for yourself that it has been done over and over again.
How hard can it be for you to understand that it is not only islamists and communists that object to that? Basically you guys never gives us a chance to forget its just to open the papers or turn on the TV and there we go again.
"I want to kill something" painted on the wings on some F18 or the even more disgusting habit of writing messages on the bombs. I just think its arrogant not to even consider why so many people in the world have reasons to hate your politics.
Its stupid if nothing else.
I dont automatically support your enemies but alot of people including myself are just a tiny little bit annoyed about all these dead civilians you leave in your trail.

[Mediocrates]

you mean the Jewish ones or the ones that count?

[Northlander]

I mean civilians killed by USA period. They only kill asians and arabs so dont worry. No wrong, they kill latinos and africans too. And europeans, but those guys were just slavic so what the hell.

Its nice to see that all those civilians died for a reason. The world has become such a safer and better place to live for us all now so they have really done a great job.

[christian]

Originally posted by Northlander
I mean civilians killed by USA period. They only kill asians and arabs so dont worry. No wrong, they kill latinos and africans too. And europeans, but those guys were just slavic so what the hell.

Its nice to see that all those civilians died for a reason. The world has become such a safer and better place to live for us all now so they have really done a great job.

Northlander, :D :)
I agree with you

Good job,
America!
Thanks for your agent orange, which the region around vietnam, babies are born to be deformed arms.
Thanks for your daisy cutter, which kills millions of oppositions
Thanks for your mercy, afterward you treat the vietnamese like refugees. You call them "illegal" migrants.
Thanks for help in Cambodia, which CNN didn't report anything about civilian causaluties.
Thanks you for your weapon industries, which they make so much money. While the army uses agents orange.
Thanks you for taiwan, you are making chinese killing each other.
Thanks for your wonderful thought on Nuclear bomb, which your "righteous" Richard Nixon wants to think BIG!

You are defender of the free world, while you are bombing the civilians.
If someone inflicts pain on you, it is not OK like the 9-11.
If you inflicts so much pain on someone. You said "oh well"
"I am sorry!""That is regretable"
Pain with these kind doesn't forget easily.A$$holes.
Imagine your parents die in a daisy cutter bomb. His lungs is exploded. You can't even recognize his face.

Thanks you for reading this.

[Mediocrates]

thanks for crushing Tibet
thanks for nerve gassing the Kurds
thanks for teenage human wave attacks against the Republican Guards
thanks for all the Hutus and all the Tutsis
thanks for the Cultural Revolution
thanks for all the starvation in Korea
thanks for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere
thanks for Biafra
thanks for the Ethiopian famines
thanks for the Algerian civil war
thanks for the 30,000 disappeared in Argentina
thanks for the Bangladesh war of independence

[Northlander]

dont take it personally but USA alone has as many points if you make a list as all other countries together the last 50 years.
I think it is in its place to mention that in the argentine case USA is behind the scenes as for chile and most other fascist coups in s.america. And when Iraq first got their chemical weapons it was Anthrax bought from britain. Good old british empire. I guess not even israelis can defend that arm sell from your allies.

We started this in the west. It has been widely used. Maybe even the iraqi gas was european. Muslims and all other still has a reason to fear and hate us here in the west. the history are full of evidence that basically all crimes against humanity are done by west. And still is in my opinion. Its has just come back and bite us in the ass.

"In no future war will the military be able to ignore poison gas. It is a higher form of killing."
German professor Fritz Haber, pioneer of gas warfare, on receiving the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1919


"Despite the fact that the Hague Declaration of 1899 banned certain types of warfare, including "the use of projectiles the object of which is the diffusion of asphyxiating or deleterious gases," the major powers continued to research and develop chemical weapons for future battlefield use. Twenty-six nations signed the Hague Declaration in 1899-except for the United States, which refused to sign, and Britain, which delayed signing until 1907."

"The U.S. created the Chemical Warfare Service (CWS) in mid-1918, with General Amos A. Fries as its director. The Edgewood Arsenal, a military base near Baltimore, Maryland, became the center for U.S. chemical weapons research, employing more than 1,200 technical and 700 service assistants who tested more than 4,000 poisonous substances. With 218 manufacturing buildings and 28 miles of railway, Edgewood was capable of producing 200,000 chemical bombs and shells per day. It was the biggest military-scientific effort until the Manhattan Project, which was set up in 1941 to build the atomic bomb."

Nice job.

"The British took advantage of every opportunity to use their new weapons. Major Foulkes, who was sent to India in 1919, pressured the British military to use chemical weapons in their war against Afghanistan: "Ignorance, lack of instruction and discipline, and the absence of protection on the part of Afghans and tribesmen will undoubtedly enhance the casualty producing value of mustard gas in frontier fighting." The British War Department agreed, sending stocks of phosgene and mustard gas, and British troops were trained in anti-gas suits on the Khyber Pass. Records of the use of these weapons were either not kept or were destroyed."

Wonder why afghanistan are a troublespot and a scene for fundamentalism and hate against west?

"During Japan's long and brutal occupation of China during the 1930s and 1940s, a special unit of the Japanese Army, known as "Unit 731," experimented on Chinese soldiers and civilians with gas and germ warfare. Unit 731, led by General Ishii Shiro, carried out vast war crimes. For instance, they tested the effects of anthrax bombs on human beings and injected Chinese soldiers and civilians with tetanus, smallpox, and plague. Of the human remains studied by the U.S. in 1947, anthrax accounted for 31 deaths; cholera, 50; mustard gas, 16; plague, 106; typhoid, 22; and typhus, 9. Many more diseases were also tested.
The Russians wanted to put members of Unit 731, including Shiro, on trial, but the U.S. granted them immunity. In return, the U.S. got the results of their experiments. As historians Robert Harris and Jeremy Paxman have written, "The U.S. was indeed shielding Japanese bacteriologists from war crimes charges in return for data on human experimentation." This information was hidden for 30 years after the war."

"Just a decade ago, during the Gulf War, the U.S. gassed untold thousands of its own soldiers as well as Iraqi citizens when it blew up chemical plants and dropped depleted-uranium bombs and shells on Iraq. It also forced American soldiers to take vaccines that had not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration-one of the many culprits for the Gulf War syndrome suffered by thousands of Gulf War veterans that remains barely acknowledged to this day by the United States government."

Lunatics. Why anyone wants to fight for that army is beyond me.

[Mediocrates]

we refused to sign the landmine treaty too - a terrible thing

whats yer point?

[christian]

I understand your point.

USA has so many contribution. I rather be occupied by USA, than by some crazy Dictator.


Actually, Do you know? Many natives in the colonies, rather be occupied by Britain, than by their own dictator.

:)

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander

2. continue to whine about the evil anti-semitic europeans

How about stupid anti-Semitic Eropeans?

[Mediocrates]

"given a chance"

A mantra chanted over and over until the the words lose their meaning and only the sound remains. What more of a chance should they have been given and should they be given? They have been given more of a chance than post colonial Africa. Why the disconnect?

[Northlander]

we refused to sign the landmine treaty too - a terrible thing.whats yer point?

yeah and opposed the creation of a permanent warcrimes trial.
Together with Israel of course.

my point is clear but if you dont understand it Im afraid I cant help you. USA´s foreign politics never change I guess and then we are up against a whole lot of troubles. ALL of us. Chemical terrorist attacks or whatever you like.

I understand your point.USA has so many contribution. I rather be occupied by USA, than by some crazy Dictator.Actually, Do you know? Many natives in the colonies, rather be occupied by Britain, than by their own dictator.

Well, without USA/Europe/Russia there wouldnt be that many crazy dictators would there? I would rather not be occupied by anyone.
Give me ONE dictator that didnt get to power thanks to NATO/Russia? Whos army still uses russian or american arms?

[christian]

Northlander,
One things american surprise me, is that they don't understand the history of Iran and Iraq.

Iran imperialist government is supported by USA. The overthown of the government is also supported by USA. The arms and chemical weapon is also supported by USA and Britain.

So, it is with Iraq and Tailban. Most of the advance weapons in Iran and Iraq are made in USA.

The Iran also buy a lots of weapon from USA, during the Iran and Iraq war. It is told in our news, they can use it for a decades or so.

This is one of the reason the CIA knows so much about the chemical weapons and nuclear weapons.

They know where the weapons are. They know where the weapons are used. so forth.

American understand all this. However, they don't know their weapon industry is causing a lots of trouble today.

"What goes around, comes around"

[thrud]

Where do you get this crap?

Pre 1970s propaganda leaflets your grandfather has stuffed under his bed?

The stuff you quote constantly is old! OLD!! OLD!!!

[Northlander]

yeah right, the 70s propaganda on 80s and 90s wars. You cant deny that amercian arms kills alot of people. Your arms, your responsibility!! You dont have to like it just accept it.

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander
yeah right, the 70s propaganda on 80s and 90s wars. You cant deny that amercian arms kills alot of people. Your arms, your responsibility!! You dont have to like it just accept it.

I have an aunt who lives in Detroit. She came to a family reunion a few years ago in Provo (Utah). She is very liberal and supports many "liberal" issues including gun control.

She seemed to think that guns killed people. My dad decided to correct his sister and went into the house and came back out with his 9mm and put it on the table pointing the barrel at her.

He withdrew his hand from the table and commanded the gun to kill her. He did this several times and when the gun failed to go off he took it inside chiding it for not going off.

My dad's point was very simple: guns don't kill people -- people kill people.

My point is: propaganda is nearly as stupid as the people who quote it.

ps. My aunt is still not talking to my dad.

[Northlander]

haha, funny point but ohh so stupid. Its kind of hard to imagine gunshot wounds without weapons. I have done some travelling and the most dangerous places are always the ones with alot of weapons and a higher degree of poverty. If Im wrong and you are right I recommend you go to let say a favela in Rio de Janeiro.
That would probably convince you but of course you would never come back and write about your new views.
USA has contributed with 2 things to the 3rd world and that is poverty and weapons. If there is not actual poverty its still more violence in a richer area WITH weapons than ANY even a poor one without. USA itself is the best example of that. More deaths by gunfire than any other state in the world. Per capita maybe s.africa and colombia are worse but of course they are also loaded with american weapons and alot poorer.
You are wrong, thats a fact. Without alot of weapons alot less violence. Thats a known fact. And thats just about murders. When we talk about war its absolutely necessary with weapons and its there America has done its biggest contribution to history.
That and of course hamburgers but thats another story.

[Mediocrates]

You really need to prioritize that long list of everything you mindlessly hate about America, Israel, Jews and so on. You're wandering off theme, badly. Or better yet just number them and refer to the numbers.

Today is a "1", "13", "47", "130", "315" kind of a day...

[Northlander]

I dont hate anything about jews exept when someone is jewish and reading in anti-semitism in everything he sees is critisism against himself. I hate american foreign politics yes. Almost everything with it.
About wander of theme, I presented sollutions to the conflict in this thread and apart from you mediocrates no one else have.
I dont agree to your sollution and my anger about US politics is the reason why. USA should not intervent military in this conflict, exept under UN flag. It would create more fundamentalism. And especially Israel dont need that.
Neither do you and I. But not surprisingly no other supporter of Israel here gave a suggestion to what to do. I guess you are happy about the current situation in ME? Keep on blaming it on Islam doesnt really solve anything does it?

[Mediocrates]

Maybe they're just cowards. Israel is occupying Israel. Anything they give away to the screeching mob is a gift.

Hey did you notice that the Warden of Brixton prison is the Brit tagged to 'watch' the Arafatistan-6? The EU wanted to charge HIM with war crimes during the era of Bobby Sands. So maybe you should all stop wishing for the end of the world because it's here, at least for them it is.

You don't like American foreign policy however flawed BECAUSE it's an expression of our own agenda? One of the benefits of having no foreign policy at all - everything else looks 'dirty' in comparison.

Here's what your PLO plan has gotten you. A foreign army on your land, a foreign run prison camp on your land, a beseiged 'leader' who when freed by outside pressure screams into the microphones for 10 minutes.

Even the most pro PLO western news media are writing about what's to happen after 'everyone gets tired of the party and stops shooting their AK's in the air'. - You do understand what an implied insult that is, right? Your beloved PLO exists to the west only as a straw man to bash Jews and is really only viewed as a big joke. A big unruly ungovernable bunch of redneck losers who know ****-all about wiring a bomb but don't have the faintest clue about how to run a shoe factory.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020337082500

Natan Sharansky's 7 point transition to peace plan.

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander
Its kind of hard to imagine gunshot wounds without weapons.

I agree with that in the same way that the two worst mass murders in the US were commited without guns. A weapon can be a lorry filled with fertilizer or a jet with a full tank of gas (a belt filled C4 is also a fairly good way to commit mass murder).

People have always killed others, and most of the time it did not matter where they got the weapons, because they would have gotten them anyway.

I know that Iran and Iraq both had US weapons when they were trying to kill each other (at one time both were US allies), but I do not think it matters where they got the weapons. I also think both sides used Russian weapons, Chinese weapons, even Israeli weapons (UZIs), and if Sweden makes weapons I am sure they were used in that free for all.

Nut jobs are going to kill each other no matter what with whatever they have. Here in Seoul there was a middle school boy who became angry with a bully who just kicked the [stuffing] out of his best friend, went home, got his mother's chef knife, returned to the school, stabbed the bully 14 times, and calmly walked out and turned himself over to the police. This week there have been 14 murders in Seoul (there were more, but these stuck out). The motive in each case was to steal money from the victims to pay-off credit card dept. None of these murders happened with US guns, but rather nylons, belts, knives, and rope all made domenstically; except one, a Phillips hairdrier was used in one case -- I guess the Dutch are at fault and should pay reparations to the family.

Korea is famous for their low crime rate and the reletive safety of their streets, but a much freer press than before is now reporting more crimes and also that most of the murderers do not use guns, but rather knives and rope.

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander
About wander of theme, I presented sollutions to the conflict in this thread and apart from you mediocrates no one else have.


I have a solution to the ME problem.

1) The Palestinians should stop killing people.

I think that covers everything. Stop being a pack of terrorists and the Jews will be more than happy to take it up the hershy highway to ensure peace.

I am sick of the stupidities coming from the EU. I an glad you live in Sweden and never have to deal with antagonistic neighbors who want to see you dead. I am glad you have never lived in a high crime area; I would rather even an anti-Semite like you were alive than dead. I am glad you can criticize from your elitist, theoretical, academic POV, because it gives the people who have to live in bad situations something to laugh at.

[Northlander]

what about this.

1. The IDF should stop killing civilians.

Until then no civilised nation can accept Israel.

Stop playing stupid and come with some serious suggestions.
You know terror against israel will not stop just because IDF terrorise back.

[Northlander]

By the way thrud. You know nothing about me and my background. Dont belive the tourist information about northern europe.

Just because I think weapons control is good doesnt mean we dont have any here. Just face it, I know more about your country and than you do about mine so lets just leave it that way.

Arrogant and ignorant as always. Do you really belive the BS about the american superiority? Protecting the rest of the civilised world, us living our lives protected and not aware of the threats. You are very naive in your view on EU. Things are not that black and white you know. You have seen to many hollywood movies.

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander
what about this.

1. The IDF should stop killing civilians.

Until then no civilised nation can accept Israel.

Stop playing stupid and come with some serious suggestions.
You know terror against israel will not stop just because IDF terrorise back.
Northlander, I love you. You give me purpose in life and things to think about (how stupid most Europeans are).

Okay, my answer was too straight forward for an elitest like you. Okay how about this:

1) Isreal should take control of the land won in a war that they did not ask for and deport everysingle person who breaks their laws.

2) Limit the ports of entry to four. One in Tel Aviv, one on the nothern boarder, one on the eastern boarder, and one on the southern/western boarder and physically search every-single person who comes through (I'll submit to a body search happily when I visit).

3) Those that come back in and break the laws again should be put into prison then deported once their terms are over.

4) Build a few prisons out in the Mediterainian sea on old oil derricks and throw anyone off with a weight around their anckles who breaks prison rules.

5) Give everyone who lives within the proper boarders (including the West Bank and Gaza) the same rights that everyone else has. If anyone breaks the laws punish them mercilessly, but I think most of them will be too busy living peacefully that the crime rate will be fairly low.

6) If no one is willing to accept the above points and Israel is forced to give up their territory, then they should close all their boarders to the Palestinians and shoot everyone that tries to sneak across as they are probably terrorists and baby killers.

I think this is a good option as you think the Palestinians have the right to murder-bomb whomever they will.

Originally posted by Northlander
Do you really belive the BS about the american superiority? Protecting the rest of the civilised world, us living our lives protected and not aware of the threats.

I do; absolutely!!!
And no, I think we should withdraw from most of our international obligations (including the UN and NATO and force the UN to move its headquarters off US soil) and stop helping those who do not share our interests. The EU hates the US and Israel and so I think we ought to turn our attention to knocking the EU down a few pegs economically.

I think the EU can handle their own problems without the help of the US and no I do not think we need to come to your aid ever again.

[Northlander]

haha, yes. Its really we europeans that have a reputation as being stupid and uneducated.

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander
haha, yes. Its really we europeans that have a reputation as being stupid and uneducated.
Stupid and racist most definately.

Education has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. I could care less if everyone in the EU had a PhD, that does not mean you guys are not the biggest idiots/racists to walk the planet since Hitler (another European) and Stalin (another European).

[McSceptic]

I don't think we Europeans can be accused of stupidity, after all we created the Western civilisation that gave rise to America. The same civilisation that Jewish people, Japanese people and other non-Aryans have since adopted.

We're also quite inventive, witness the concentration camp! One of my own country's inventions, although a measure of credit has to go to the inventor of barbed wire (wasn't he/she an American?).

And of course we're not alone in being racist. Apart from America's mistreatment of the Amerindians, we have the spectacle of the US fighting a civil war to (among other things) keep the institution of human slavery.

Let's face it, apart from the Canadians, all the European-inspired cultures are guilty of dreadful deeds. But we got away with it. Israel's tragedy is to turn up late to the party with a bloody knife stuck in it's belt and say "What?"

[Mediocrates]

Rubbish - their only crime is to listen to the discussion of why they should be held to a higher standard. I mean it's clear that when organizations like the EU can nothing to ameliorate the conditions of those less fortunate in the EU they resort to attacking someone else when it is no skin off their noses.

[McSceptic]

Exactly, the Israelis are trying out ideas that went out of date over a hundred years ago, but are being judged by the rest of the world against present day standards.

Timing, as they say, is everything.

Oh, and shooting all the natives. That's important too.

[Mediocrates]

Unlike all future European wars which will be fought somewhere else the Israelis are trying to defend themselves there on the ground where they live.

Strangely though as they manage to stand on their heads so as not to anger the local arabs, countries like France incite more anarchy and frcition internally than does Israel when dealing with their own indigenous arab populations. It would seem that simply acting on what's right and wrong is more effective than craven shuddering at their own "arab street". - - go figure.

[McSceptic]

France has its own particular Arab, or more accurately Algerian, problem. A result of its own colonial past.

The French have however had some success in rooting out terrorist cells. Targeted policing pays more dividends when dealing with terrorism than simply waving a big stick a la Sharon.

But you are right in saying that Israel will have to fight its wars where it is. For me that is the bigger problem (bigger than the Palestinians) as Israel is too small to be defensible, even with the West bank. Once Israel's neigbours get decent numbers of ballistic missiles twenty-thirty years down the line then the big adventure will be over.

[Northlander]

I dont agree entirely. In 30 years from now they could have learned to accept israel as a neighbour. That depends of course on Israels behaviour too. I dont think the future for Israel looks all that bright with Sharon at the rudder. American support alone will not secure israel in the longrun so on that I agree to you.

[Mediocrates]

One would think that in 30 years even the EU would learn to apply pressure against threats of regional nuclear conflict instigated by Arab nations. Perhaps not. It's easy enough to see that in as much as the Saudis flex their muscles and the world genuflects that even a EU threat to respond in kind to regional nuclear conflict would be met by the Saudis with an equal threat to target London and Brussels. At any rate the EU might back down faster than a whipped dog.

Perhaps Brent crude will run out and the EU will become a wholly incorporated colony of OPEC. Perhaps some bleak dystopian Airstrip One is all you can hope for but lets hope not. Let's hope that the Islamic bomb isn't something perenially pointed at the west, at europe at israel although I fear that Europe will hope against hope until it is too late.

Funny that, really. For hundreds of years British foreign policy was "Make the World England" yet when a recently ragtag bunch of bedouins who were granted oil hegemony in a place they named after themselves reaches out their cash stuffed, oily fist and proclaims to the world "Islam or the sword, dog", nobody takes them that seriously. Why is that? What kind of brick do you need to fall on your head first?

[Northlander]

are you comparing saudi arabia with the british empire??
I have a sollution. Why dont we in west just unite for one single last time? If europe and USA put every single man under arms, you and me too, 300 million men with superior technology and devastating firepower. Dont you think we could just clean out all muslim land once and for all? Leave nothing left there. Then we could share all the oil. Let our culture prosper everywhere. We could live where we wanted. Its better than bying the oil from some muslim country is it not? We need room to live in and we remove the muslim threat once and for all. Like a modern roman empire bringing civilization to the barbarians. What do you think?
One giant blow to which they never recover or should we pick them of one one starting with Iraq?

[Mediocrates]

oh no of course not. but don't be shocked if the kind of threats you used to get from OPEC are one day backed up by force or the threat of force. Saddam said first, "we will take back our 13th province which those traitorous dogs call Kuwait" and then he did. He didn't ask for an international committee to vote on it first.

Clearly the age of using oil as a weapon are waning. But the age of using oil and something else like invasion or instability or threat of force or intimidating Turkey, are not over. They haven't even begun. Rich arab countries are not swarthy versions of you. They are themselves with their own values, culture, intent. Even the US doesn't really understand this when they proclaim that globalization in the PRC will save all. They will never be Asian versions of American capitalists either. Same with the Mid East - they have uncountable wealth. Did that make them like us? No it did not so making assumptions about what goals they hold dear are at best, guesses.

[McSceptic]

I think you're right in saying they're not like us. They still haven't got the idea of a nation state. The Gulf states are just oligarchys, an elite at the top, a middle band of hangers on and foreigners to do the work (Europeans and Americans for the intellectual stuff, Palestinians and Philipinos for the dirty work). They're no more capable of becoming serious players than they are of going to the moon.

Islam is an expansionist ideology, but it hasn't been a threat to the West since Lepanto. It's an ideology suited to a quick camel charge, but not to building a modern indistrialised state. Look at what's happended to Iran. The quickest way to become poor is to adopt some theocratic nonsense - it doesn't matter if it's Muslim, Christian or Jewish (and you can see a Jewish example in the West Bank - those religious settlements are bankrupting the country).

[Northlander]

from Thrud:
And no, I think we should withdraw from most of our international obligations (including the UN and NATO and force the UN to move its headquarters off US soil) and stop helping those who do not share our interests. The EU hates the US and Israel and so I think we ought to turn our attention to knocking the EU down a few pegs economically.

Must just comment on this :)
Seriously why do you think the countries in europe founded EU?
Its by no other reason than challenging USA and asia economically at first and in the long run on all levels. With europes infrastructure and larger population you will not succed in knocking us down at all. The plan of course is to become the economical centre of the world and build up our own military capability. I have never been a supporter of those ideas but at least one good will come from it and that is that your american arrogance will finally end.

[Northlander]

comment on Natan Sharansky's 7 point peace plan:

It all falls on point 3 with israel taking care of security. We have seen what happens then.

to this I agree:
"Just as Germany and Japan had to undergo a process of political and economic rehabilitation in order to rejoin the international community following World War II, Palestinian society will need to undergo a similar transition."

Germany and japan got incredible sums of money and they could rehabilitate in peace. Give the same thing to PA and things would work out better. But this will not happen as long as the palestinians have their infrastructure smashed. Its obvious Sharons tactic is to make things as hard as possible for Arafat and PA until their failure is clear which it eventually will be if things continue this way.
When PA has failed Israel hopes for international support and free hands to create "their" palestinian state. Smart really but I dont think it can work. Too many palestinians will resist as they have done for long time and the moral aspect has to be taken into consideration. Israel must learn to give to gain. Its what its about if you want lasting peace with the region. Its not up to Israel to choose palestine authorities. You should not even interfer with their politics.

[Belgium@EU]

Thrud.

And no, I think we should withdraw from most of our international obligations (including the UN and NATO and force the UN to move its headquarters off US soil) and stop helping those who do not share our interests. The EU hates the US and Israel and so I think we ought to turn our attention to knocking the EU down a few pegs economically.


How smart of you. Indeed, that would benefit the people of the US. Knocking down their largest trade partner, with ties in Asia and Africa. Don't you Americans just understand that America is NOT the one and only economic superpower anymore, EU, Japan come right behind! I also think we should stop with NATO, and we should get rid of all American military presence in the EU. The EU doesn't hate the US, we're just not your poodle, we have different values, priorities.

Ooh, and we're not stupid. You just think that of us, but we also think that about you guys. That happens if you give a presidential mandate to the biggest lunatic you can find. :D

[Mediocrates]

"Germany and japan got incredible sums of money and they could rehabilitate in peace. Give the same thing to PA and things would work out better. But this will not happen as long as the palestinians have their infrastructure smashed. Its obvious Sharons tactic is to make things as hard as possible for Arafat and PA until their failure is clear which it eventually will be if things continue this way."


1) So go write your Saudi compadres and ask them to divert some of the 20 billion they allocated in 2002 for hard line fundamentalist schools world wide to a Palestinian Marshall Plan.

2) That's what Marshall Plans are for - of course they only take effect AFTER war is over.

3) What is obvious to you is not obvious to other people. The intent is to smash the terrorist infrastructure. To wit - the "Great Jenin Massacre" consisted of a total area of destruction about 4% of the total camp area.

4) Can you provide hard data for the 'untold disruption' to the entire economy of the Palestinians. Real numbers and please don't include imputed values about the relative loss to the exported labor economy from the WB and Gaza. Why? When warfare includes the movement of warm bodies from one place to another one would expect to restrict the movement of Palestinians into Israel. You can complain abou that but it would be self serving nonsense to do so.

5) Can you provide hard data on the economic living conditions of all Palestinians in the WB and Gaza. I will attempt to look into that.

[thrud]

Wrong. The largest trading partner the US has is itself. The internal trade the US has far outweighs the influence of any internation trading partner. A nation does not become rich if it does not have a successful internal trade system.

The next point is that the largest trade partner the US has is Canada, then Japan (Canada 19%, Japan 11%, Mexico 11%, China 8%, Germany 5%, UK, Taiwan (2000) {from the CIA factbook}). Japan is not too anti-American and Canada unerstands the value of money. The combined value of American business with the EU does not come close to the value of its trade with Asia and NAFTA.

The US in reality does not need the EU. If we ignored the EU and tariffed their imports heavily for a few months, then the EU would start to behave in a more civilized mannor. Look at the steel disbute. No one is making that much of a noise about it anymore. There is good reason to. The WTO is only as effective as the US lets it. If we decide to ignore it, what is it going to do? We can ignore international trade a lot easier than the world can do with out the US buying what they produce.

If the US started to push the EU economically, it would crumble like a house of cards.

I think the EU is in a dangerous situation and that is why it is now starting to curtail a lot of it institutional Anti-American rhetoric.

I think the EU is in a fragile position and that needs to be remembered (ps how many EU member-states have contracted economically in the last decade?).

[Belgium@EU]

Economically spoken, the EU is about as strong as the US. And the EU has 15 memberstates. So Germany (nr 3), UK (nr4), France (nr5), Benelux, Italy, Spain ... are ALL important trade partners of the US. Losing them won't benefit the US, remember the "steal-war" between US and the EU?

BTW, wy should US impose sanctions on the EU? We are not in 1933 you know. There's no Hitler, and apart from some minority groupings, we don't have anti-semite feelings here, not more than in the US. We want to impose sanctions on israel and the PA because they are killing citizens every day. Is the EU doing that? No, so why should you even think of sanctions is my question. Because we share different opinions, is that it? That's a stupid argument.

Just look at the G-7. In the G-7 there are 4 EU-countries. (Italy, Germany, France and the UK). Are there any bells ringing? Biggest trade partners?

[thrud]

Do you want my pat answer and say one of the follwoing:

1) Who cares; the entire EU sucks.
2) The EU is full of anti-semites, no matter what you claim (including you), and that everyone there is destined for the pit anyway.
3) The EU is full of bunch of elitist snobs who would not know reality if it bit them on the [small, grey-colored donkey].

Or would you rather I say something intelligent like:

1) The anti-Americanism and anti-Israelism is a symptom of Europes own self-hate and recognition that it is an economically contracting, pseudo-world power that is being throttled by its own socialism and labor unions.
2) Elitist anti-Semitism spouts from a fear of the success Israel has experienced economically.
3) Europe still feels guilty from its own bouts of xenophobia and genocide that it has to force weaker nations to behave in the ways it failed to do so in its past.

Either way, it does not matter. I lived in Bremen and Bonn, Germany for four years before I came to South Korea and while I loved the culture, food, art, travel, and history of Europe (I traveled to every Western European nation except Portugal and Ice Land and some of the former East Bloc nations like Poland and Romania). My ancestory is Scottish (both sets of grandparents were born there) and I loved visiting the family I still have there. What I hated about Europe was its arrogant misunderstanding of the US and its quick misjudgements of US motives and government policy.

Having lived in Europe and Asia, I can easily say the US is the greatest place to live and raise children on the planet.

I have not ever been to the Middle-East, but my employer knows I am very pro Israel and so I might have a chance to be transferred to Tel Aviv, but I am afraid to go over there because of the murdering thugs who enjoy killing civilians and since there are very few Koreans there, my wife would have a hard time buying the ingredients for Kimchee.

I think that if the US decides to take the EU down a few notches, it will be very deserved. I think South Korea and China would be great replacements for some of the failing G7 EU nations.

[Mediocrates]

Will Cyprus get EU membership fastracked as a result of their allowing British supervised terrorist criminals from Bethlehem to be deplaned there on their way back to Bethlehem via 4 EU countries? It sure sounds like one of the preconditions behind the scenes was the EU didn't want to get its hands dirty so it interposed Cyprus as a transit buffer. Of course Cyprus is on schedule for EU membership so doing some dirty job makes it look like they passed the entrance exam.

Face it, if Cyprus can be in the EU there is no earthly coherent reason that Israel can't. Except of course you hate them and kiss muslim butt instead.

[Northlander]

I think that if the US decides to take the EU down a few notches, it will be very deserved. I think South Korea and China would be great replacements for some of the failing G7 EU nations.

dreams. It wont happen and you know it. As I said EU is still developing. when finished it will be a greater economy than US.
Also as trading partner EU will have easier with both russia and china than USA will. China will never help USA to gain even more political power. I doubt the russians will too. The arrogance is, as I said before, annoying.

Having lived in Europe and Asia, I can easily say the US is the greatest place to live and raise children on the planet.
I doubt it. Maybe for overclass and upper middleclass but I can think of a couple of countries who dont have that class problem at all. You are as many americans very ignorant to the internal problems in USA. I have spoken to americans not that happy about their lives. Just the sort of statements you just made is the eternal kind of stuff we hear from over there.

[elke]

Originally posted by Northlander
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that if the US decides to take the EU down a few notches, it will be very deserved. I think South Korea and China would be great replacements for some of the failing G7 EU nations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



dreams. It wont happen and you know it. As I said EU is still developing. when finished it will be a greater economy than US.
Also as trading partner EU will have easier with both russia and china than USA will. China will never help USA to gain even more political power. I doubt the russians will too. The arrogance is, as I said before, annoying.


quote:
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Having lived in Europe and Asia, I can easily say the US is the greatest place to live and raise children on the planet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I doubt it. Maybe for overclass and upper middleclass but I can think of a couple of countries who dont have that class problem at all. You are as many americans very ignorant to the internal problems in USA. I have spoken to americans not that happy about their lives. Just the sort of statements you just made is the eternal kind of stuff we hear from over there.[/B]

How patriotic! I can't believe I missed this gem the whole month!

Sorry to all the good Europeans, but IMO THIS is why many Americans don't like you.

[MGB8]

How about this instead...

(1)wait for more and more countries to become victims of Islamic-extremist terror campaigs (shouldn't take long - India is already there, the US and Russia are both very close, Turkey has been dealing with it for a while, Germany is probably next),

(2) make trade agreements with them to cover our oil and economic needs,

(3) Say to the Palestinian Arabs...we understand why you want your own state, but, unfortunately, it is too much against our own self-interest to allow it, since it will weaken us defensively and be a home for even more terrorist operations against us. Because of that, we're going to give you squat. We won't massacre you like the Arab countries have done (those countries being Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia), and we'll only expell you if you violate Israeli law, but you aren't going to get a state. Sorry. Deal with it. And if you won't, understand that it will lead to your individual expulsion or death.

Originally posted by Jorge
Re. to David A., on unilateral actions....

I think your new thread it's an interesting one. Right now the atmosphere is so charged that may be the only way is to diffuse the hostility through unilateral actions.
As a first step Israel should end the house arrest of Arafat in Ramalah. The whole excercise has proved futile; Europe,the
US and others agree on considering him as the unquestioned leader of the palestinians. Besides if, as you propose, there should be unilateral actions taken by both sides, as long as Arafat is kept in Limbo, no one else will be able or willing to
take any decision on the palestinian side.
A second step from the israeli side could be to announce
the intention to dismantle the settlements in the Gaza Strip.
I think that some sort of broad consensus (excluding of course
extreme right wing parties) could be reached in Israel about this subject.

[MGB8]

The Palestinian people where given 9 years of autonomous self-rule, basically a country without an official title, to "do it themsleves." This was sans checkpoints (most of which are a result of the current intifadah) and most of the other affronts Palestinians usually cite.

What did they do? Breed more hate.


Sorry. Forget hoping for the Palestinian Arabs to change. In fact, forget them all-together.

Why is the idea that just because a group wants its own state, and may even have SOME legitimate claims to that, that they MUST have their own state?

Israel became a state only after the friggin Holocaust, for G's sake, and they were immediately invaded, not getting ANY help from our self-rightous European "friends."

On thing we have learned about Europe, they are no friends to the Jewish people. Never where. Never will be. So F- them. We don't need them...if they want Israel's friendship, let them extend their hands, if not, nu?

Europe is full of Chamberlein's, ready to appease anyone to avoid having to stand on principle. Europe needs oil, and it needs to placate its growing Arab community. It will act blatantly in its self interest, and all the while claim the mantle of rightousness.

Once again, forget Europe. They will soon learn yet again that appeasment gets one nothing.

Meanwhile, I hope that Normandy revolts for its own country, and Scottland too, and Sicily - hey, self determination, right?

A Continent of hypocrites...



Originally posted by Northlander
sorry mediocrates your post came while I was writing.
well, it was a proposal and I even agree to some of it
like:


Its the way to get there that differs. I too think that the biggest change has to come from the palestinians themselves. That goes for extremist jews as well. The thing with the palestinians is that they havent really been given the chance to change.
Your very american way of solveing things might have worked before but it has also put you in a situation where 11th sept could happen. Even worse things can happen i the future with nukes and chemicals. not only we here in the west will pay the price if things continue to escalate. You could surely crush the palestinians as I am sure Iraq will be chrushed soon. The thing is that it will be an endless row of new countries to take the old ones places. Your goodwill is still hurt by a conflict like vietnam.

the biggest reason we even have a problem with fundamentalist islam is that most muslim countries still suffers from western politics. About every dictator or regime in muslimcountries came to power either by US support and arms or russian. there civilwars haev been instigated and supported by west. I dont think you can mention one arabcountry that has been spared from western distabilazation. thats the kind of environments where religous fanatism thrives. Basically I would like to blame most of the islamic fundamentalism on west, therefore Im against a military solution from the US in this conflict even though Im sure it would be able to do. Would only prolong the time it takes to make the muslim countries equal to us and part of the world community. not until then will we see islam lose its importance. As christianity has done here.

[Northlander]

On thing we have learned about Europe, they are no friends to the Jewish people. Never where. Never will be. So F- them. We don't need them...if they want Israel's friendship, let them extend their hands, if not, nu?

Europe is not one entity. different governments. At least up today.
British and Finnish foreign policys is somewhat different you know.
Peoples opinion about Israel is based on Israels behaviour. That is something very hard to understand, is it not. Its not based on others actions. Bear that in mind all time and things will change. Just because some lunatics blows up children in Tel Aviv doesnt excuse Israeli oppression and occupation. Eye for an eye, is just a little bit to oldfashioned to work here. Maybe in the states... not here. There is always a reason for terrorism. Im sure Israeli terrorists 50 years ago had their reasons. I still believe Israel has the right to defend itself but it must follow international laws. It is not okey and has never been okey to move troops over a border into another state to protect oneself. IF the palestinians are going to have their own state that is not up to the israelis to do.
Just cant happen. Spain cant move troops into france to prevent ETA to operate from there etc. Israel show ignorance to the PA and the palestinians in general by moving in troops. This is not defence. the settlers are not defenders. Israeli soldiers AND civilians shouldnt die because of some settlers that choosed to live there in the first place. Its not about religion or race when europeans criticise Israel. By claiming that you just prevent better relations with europe. And contrary to what you belive, Israel is dependent on good relations with europe in the long run. Both sides benefit on that. Trade and cultural exchange is good, conflict is not.

[Mediocrates]

Just because some lunatics blows up children in Tel Aviv doesnt excuse Israeli oppression and occupation.


That has got to go down as the dumbest most cynical sentence I have ever read.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
I still believe Israel has the right to defend itself but it must follow international laws. It is not okey and has never been okey to move troops over a border into another state to protect oneself.
Your are wrong, Northlander.

Israel is specifically authorized to defend itself against Arab attacks under Article 51 of the UN Charter. This is the same article cited by the U.S. and UK in their own war against Arab terrorism in which they bomb cross border and take any actions they deem fit under the UN Charter. Israel has the same right.

Secondly, UN Resolution 242 and 1397 specifically provide that Israel is entitled to exist secure borders. The West Bank and Gaza territories falls within Israel's secure borders, the exact extent of which is to be decided through future negotiation.

So, based in these principles of international law, Israel is perfectly within its rights in everything it does in its war against Arab terrorism.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Just because some lunatics blows up children in Tel Aviv doesnt excuse Israeli oppression and occupation.
That has got to go down as the dumbest most cynical sentence I have ever read.

Right. It is cynical because it contains factual errors and distortions to justify Arab massacres of Israeli victims.

Let's take a closer look:

1. Israel is not occupying, nor oppressing -- it is fighting a war on terrorism as specifically authorized under intenational law.

2. It is not Palestinian "some lunatics" acting randomly. Rather, it is a full-blow war, involving professional terrorist organizations funded and armed by states like Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. There is a process of weapons acquisition, official incitement, recruitment, training, careful planning, intelligence gathering and an intricate para-military command and operational structure.

So, this pretending as if Israel is overreacting against "some lunatic," is really false and misleading justification for terrorism against innocent Israelis.

[IsraelAdvocate]

Originally posted by Gatorade


Your point number two says a lot and is accurate.

The current Palestinian leaders have done a horrible job preparing the next generation for peace.



They have not done a "horrible job".
They simply have refused to do the job, and instead have done the opposite.

BTW, I am against unilateral separation, since it would only be a reward for terrrorism. Just look at what happend with the withdrawal from Lebanon. The Arabs took it as a sign of weakness, and that has simply emboldened them for this struggle.

Withdraw unilaterally, and we'll be fighting a "war of the fence" along the West Bank, the same we are/did in Lebanon.

I AM for building the new security fence along the green line, but not as a border. I am for leaving the settlements firmly in place, until the Palestinians come to terms (and come to thier sanity).

[Northlander]

Very stupid indeed. Leaving the settlements "firmly in place" will not only guarantee Israel more terroristattacks, it will also alienate you from the rest of the world. The settlers are not acceptable. The sooner you understand that the sooner Israel can start having normal relations. Alot of Israelis I have spoken too feel the same way. Why should normal Israelis die because of those settlers? Why should Israel have diplomatic problems because of some settlers? Every time you expand them or start new its a clear sign Israel is not for peace. Every patriotic soldier in Israel should follow some peoples example and refuse to serve there. Its ok to bleed and die for you country when its seriously threatened, but this? Every person has a responsibility for his own actions. You either take part in aggression or you dont.
Remove the settlements and Israels position would be stronger.
In fact Im surprised of the strategic incompetence shown by the Israeli governments. Tactically their actions are mostly brilliant but strategically a joke to be honest. Still they want to be compared to the americans which I find somewhat amusing when you consider the results.
it is a full-blow war
haha, yeah right. Who do you think fall for that propaganda BS?
In most peoples minds you have the right to defend against terrorism. And? Israels politics is not about that. Its about expansion and stateterrorism. It has been since the creation of the state. Its time to start behaving as a civilised country and make peace. I for one put the trust in brave and intelligent Israelis for that to happen but sadly they are a true minority these days. But I also blame the palestinians for that. Neither side are very constructive but I have more understanding for the people without their own state.

When it comes to UN resolutions about USAs and Britains right to use force in souvereign states to protect themselves against terrorism I have my opinion about that. If any country no matter reason drops a single bomb on my country my reaction would be that we are in war with them. But Im surprised that Newsguy talks about UN resolutions. Usually you guys doesnt care much about the UN resolutions when Israel is braking them. Then its about how anti-semitic the UN are etc.

[MGB8]

1) Israel won the west bank in a defensive war. The buffer zone it created saved it in 73, when the Arab nations attacked on Yom Kippur (talk about morality.) It has no obligation to give anything back - rules of conquest. If it had to give something back, it would be to Jordan, anyway, but they dropped their claims. The prior owners were the brits, then the turks, the mamaluks....etc. etc. If Israel Wanted to expand it would not have given up teh Sinai. Instead, it would have sacked Ahman and Damascus.

2) The suffering of the Palestinian Arabs is largly of their own making. They are adults, and they know the likely consequence of their actions. Hide bombs in ambulances - ambulances will be searched. Send bombers from towns - people will be searched on exit from towns - check points (the great majority of which came after the intifadah started.) Send a dozen kids to stone or knife 3-4 17-19 year old soldier, kids will likely get hit by rubber bullets. Fire behind the cover of Women's skirts and populated areas - those shields will get hurt. Fail to keep terrorists in jail - Israel will take matters into its own hands.


Originally posted by Northlander
Very stupid indeed. Leaving the settlements "firmly in place" will not only guarantee Israel more terroristattacks, it will also alienate you from the rest of the world. The settlers are not acceptable. The sooner you understand that the sooner Israel can start having normal relations. Alot of Israelis I have spoken too feel the same way. Why should normal Israelis die because of those settlers? Why should Israel have diplomatic problems because of some settlers? Every time you expand them or start new its a clear sign Israel is not for peace. Every patriotic soldier in Israel should follow some peoples example and refuse to serve there. Its ok to bleed and die for you country when its seriously threatened, but this? Every person has a responsibility for his own actions. You either take part in aggression or you dont.
Remove the settlements and Israels position would be stronger.
In fact Im surprised of the strategic incompetence shown by the Israeli governments. Tactically their actions are mostly brilliant but strategically a joke to be honest. Still they want to be compared to the americans which I find somewhat amusing when you consider the results.

haha, yeah right. Who do you think fall for that propaganda BS?
In most peoples minds you have the right to defend against terrorism. And? Israels politics is not about that. Its about expansion and stateterrorism. It has been since the creation of the state. Its time to start behaving as a civilised country and make peace. I for one put the trust in brave and intelligent Israelis for that to happen but sadly they are a true minority these days. But I also blame the palestinians for that. Neither side are very constructive but I have more understanding for the people without their own state.

When it comes to UN resolutions about USAs and Britains right to use force in souvereign states to protect themselves against terrorism I have my opinion about that. If any country no matter reason drops a single bomb on my country my reaction would be that we are in war with them. But Im surprised that Newsguy talks about UN resolutions. Usually you guys doesnt care much about the UN resolutions when Israel is braking them. Then its about how anti-semitic the UN are etc.

[Northlander]

Israel won the west bank in a defensive war.
That is of course not true since Israel started the war.
rules of conquest.
Hmmm, well I guess that depends on what moral standards you have. I for one doesnt like the idea of states initiating wars and then keep the areas won. Its a bit to much 1940.

[elke]

Originally posted by Northlander

That is of course not true since Israel started the war.


This is far from "of course". Closure of shipping constitutes an act of war. Therefore, Egypt was the one that started the war. Continuous infiltration through cease-fire lines, with intent to militarily attack peaceful population is also an act of war.

[Mediocrates]

That is of course not true since Israel started the war.

So you say with a straight face war with Egypt was utterly unprevoked?

And of course you understand that Syria and Jordon both, started shooting at Israel before Israel shot at it?

[Northlander]

So you say with a straight face war with Egypt was utterly unprevoked?

no, not totally unprovoked. But an all out attack is not legitimate IMO, and others. There is always an official excuse for an attack. We have all heard it before. Some excuses better than israels and some worse. The Japanese attack on pearl harbour is just one example.
Would you consider their attack legitimate?
The result in 67 was that the attacker won. Even when the defender wins its not a guarantee that they can keep parts of the losing country. I have difficulties seeng why parts of germany should be american or british now. With your logic I can easily say that Germany was provoked before WWII, which they surely were in many ways. Your views on warfare is not only antique, its also dangerous for the future. We have international forums and laws to settle conflicts. For some countries to act regardless of international laws and gain advantages by that is dangerous. Israel is doing just that constantly which makes it a danger to us all. Sharons politics must be stopped not only for the palestinians and the israelis sake but also for the whole ME and even EU and USA in the long run. The politic with expanding and building new settlements is the best example.

[Mediocrates]

Germany was disassembled as both a punishment and a protection. Anyone who wants to be a revisionist for the 3rd Reich needs to go to stormfront.com of somewhere like that.

[Northlander]

your logic not mine. wonder who is a revisionist?
Ok, you agree that Israel did attack but you point out excuses for why they did it? All im saying is that it has been done before. The result of the war nevertheless was that Israel profited on it. The issue of settlers is also a result of the war. Its nothing less than expansion. The arabs gave you the chance, sure, but its still expansion. There are other examples in history and I can keep away from WWII if that is such a sensitive subject.

[Mediocrates]

It's not a matter of 'I concede' and/or whatever rhetorical points you imagine you're scoring. Tough talk from a country hasn't fought a war in 250 years. Uninformed I guess, but tough talk all the same.

So we should punish all the Arab states for starting the 48 war? Heavens No ! That's destiny !!!

[Northlander]

Tough talk from a country hasn't fought a war in 250 years.

There we are again. This is not the first time someone on this forum make it sound like that is something bad.
I have no desire to argue with you how much better our country has done for itself than yours. Despite our lack of resources. Politically and diplomatically we have made some impact anyway. Regardless of military strength. There are more ways than the american way you know. Better wellfare and NOT having to fear terrorist attacks sort of follow...
Its not fear of conflict. We have had our share of wars earlier if that can raise your opinion about us. Several with russia. We have lived next to russia and germany for hundreds of years. And during the coldwar. As neutrals we havent been able to count on any allies. Diplomacy is a powerful tool as you know. Its not bad not to be in war. Forget your warmovies and 4 of july parades and try to get the whole picture. USA and Israel are no defenders of the freeworld. You are no innocent victims of the evil muslim crusade against west. Terrorism is not anything new. It has always been. Not at least from jews. Sometimes rightous sometimes not. Terrorism has disapared as fast as it started. Always has been, always will be. I can sympathise far more with Israel than with USA. USA choose to be the superpower and to influence the world. Even where they are not wanted. They just have to pay the price. Thats not the case with Israel. But Israel used terrorism too recently. Soon forgotten and now its something horrible. Someone has to say this straightforward. If you dont act in certain ways you dont get terrorists against you.
Its as simple as that. A single maniac maybe but not terrorways.
Just explain to me how it can be that young girls of one nationality hates another nation so much they decide to blow up themselves? Are they all just plain crazy? Can their lack of future and crimes commited to themsleves and their families have something to do with it? Is it at all possible it is a result of Israels actions too? Dont give me some racial nonsense about the arab mentality and muslim fanatism. Then I will have to point out christian fanatism and compare the number of wars and killings commited and waged by west and muslims. That doesnt lead anywhere cause west has always been worse. Its not in their nature to blow up themselves. Its a fairly new phenomenon. Not cultural as with the japanese. In my opinion its a desperate act which they know scare the enemy. All people can be driven to that. The first thing they would teach at a military academy is to give a opponent a way to backof if you have the upperhand. If yo corner him enough he will fight bitterly to the end. Israeli leadership has been tactically brilliant from time to time, but strategically they have failed. Look in the paper tomorrow and try to understand that what you see is nothing but a failure.

[Mediocrates]

We kick ass so you don't have to.

So you can preserve the right and the freedom to be neutral and collaborationist and throw rocks at us about it. Hundreds of thousands of American men and women have died to preserve your right to sneer.


Personally I don't care why somone would volunteer to blow themselves up while murdering and maiming people she never met. I don't have any mercy or pity or remorse about people like that.

I don't care why someone would hold up a school or shoot someone in a drive-by over gang colors or blow up a pizza joint. I don't care if your daddy beat you or your mommy was drunk or you didn't eat at the lunch table with the cool kids in highschool because your clothes looked funny. I don't care if you think Allah or the mullahs or Arafat or the purple people of the comet told you to. (it's like the old joke - I REALLY DO hear voices in my head - - - - - - they tell me I'm Scizophrenic)

I don't care if you think you have nothing to live for and nothing to lose. That's not a cause of nationalism, that's nihilism and sociopathy and I might as well be talking to an anthill. The reasons why don't matter. For every erg of human effort spent murdering a child or grandmother or 18 year old IDF private that is an erg of effort not spent to any other productive purpose. Not spent in civil action, not spent in building anything, not spent in attempting to communicate any coherent expression of their view that doesn't involve killing someone, not spent in anything other than hoping the world still has the attention span to broadcast your "pity me, the victim as victor" sound bytes.

[Northlander]

The reasons why don't matter. Your above statement is the reason people like you dont rule countries. Why doesnt matter? What world are you from? Apart from the fact things like this happens, the ONLY important thing is why. Without answers its impossible to prevent things. Without answers AND questions, we would still live in the middleages.

8 year old palestinian shot by IDF in Gaza yesterday. you dont think its important why things like that happens?
If it was my daughter I wouldnt ask questions maybe. Then I would agree to you. Then "why" is not important. Only revenge and protection. You are very much like the people you so utterly hate. Hamas, Islamistic Jihad etc. Same narrowminded views.

We kick ass so you don't have to.
Your enemies, not mine! We wouldnt have any problems with cubans, russians, vietnamese, arabs and a hundred more nationalities if it wasnt for you.
So you can preserve the right and the freedom to be neutral and collaborationist and throw rocks at us about it. Hundreds of thousands of American men and women have died to preserve your right to sneer.
they have died to defend or expand american interests only. all other reasons are smokescreens. And the people dying are mostly not even aware why they are doing it. They might think they fight for freedom even when they are preventing others from expressing their own, like vietnam. Or they might think they are fighting and dying to protect USA. Which have actually never happened. Apart from russian nukes, You have never been really threatened. Not like smaller countries. One could say you dont even have a clue, what its like to be up against someone stronger. Its easy to fight when you know you are going to win.
Its not brave, its not even always necessary. If you are even the slightest intelligent you know the mechanism of warfare and conflicts. Its seldom if ever about moral and right or wrong.
The winners write the history and they often tend to use the same dramaturgy over and over again. A bad leader. A misled people. Noble soldiers etc etc. USA has never fought a war for other interests than its own. Its just no such thing anymore. It would have been a crime against the american public if it had. Young american soldiers dies for white,influential, middleaged men who want to preserve their power and way of life, or gain more. These people does NOT come from compton. There are hundreds of thousands americans that would profit from a constant war. Large parts of the industry. Some americans die to
let other prosper. But its has nothing to do with defence.
As for IDF, they could contrary to US army really be a defender of their country. That is what they should do instead of protecting settlers that shouldnt exist in the first place. Or killing newborns in search of terrorists. The palestinians have lost many times more civilians than israel so its them that need protection.

We dont own you anything. You are just the latest empire in a long row. After US it will be another. USA just happens to be somewhat more human than some of the others to its allies and its inhabitants. Still as aggressive and brutal when someone stands in its way. Very much as Rome I would say. USA will never run out of enemies cause it needs enemies. its like a clockwork. after communism its terrorism or islam. After that it will be someone else. Its part of the foundation that a great power are built on. To be honest, USA only means anything to us when it comes to economics. It has not always been in our favour you know. That knowledge is the foundation the EU is built on.

For how long do you intend to kick ass? Until the price is to high to pay for the american public? When they finally get tired of making new enemies. Its not only neat little conventional wars anymore. When everybody has nuclear capability the military interventions will drop to zero is my guess. You cant win all wars forever. Others have thought that before and it has always ended the same way.

[IsraelAdvocate]

Originally posted by Northlander
Very stupid indeed. Leaving the settlements "firmly in place" will not only guarantee Israel more terroristattacks, it will also alienate you from the rest of the world. The settlers are not acceptable. The sooner you understand that the sooner Israel can start having normal relations. Alot of Israelis I have spoken too feel the same way. Why should normal Israelis die because of those settlers? Why should Israel have diplomatic problems because of some settlers? Every time you expand them or start new its a clear sign Israel is not for peace. Every patriotic soldier in Israel should follow some peoples example and refuse to serve there. Its ok to bleed and die for you country when its seriously threatened, but this? Every person has a responsibility for his own actions. You either take part in aggression or you dont.
Remove the settlements and Israels position would be stronger.
In fact Im surprised of the strategic incompetence shown by the Israeli governments. Tactically their actions are mostly brilliant but strategically a joke to be honest. Still they want to be compared to the americans which I find somewhat amusing when you consider the results.

haha, yeah right. Who do you think fall for that propaganda BS?
In most peoples minds you have the right to defend against terrorism. And? Israels politics is not about that. Its about expansion and stateterrorism. It has been since the creation of the state. Its time to start behaving as a civilised country and make peace. I for one put the trust in brave and intelligent Israelis for that to happen but sadly they are a true minority these days. But I also blame the palestinians for that. Neither side are very constructive but I have more understanding for the people without their own state.

When it comes to UN resolutions about USAs and Britains right to use force in souvereign states to protect themselves against terrorism I have my opinion about that. If any country no matter reason drops a single bomb on my country my reaction would be that we are in war with them. But Im surprised that Newsguy talks about UN resolutions. Usually you guys doesnt care much about the UN resolutions when Israel is braking them. Then its about how anti-semitic the UN are etc.

Quite a strong opinion for someone who lives in the safety and security of Sweden. The Palestinians were offered thier state at Camp David in August 2000, and they flatly refused. They responded with thier "Brave Islamic Warriors" bombing cafes and shopping malls.

This is not the activity of a "civilised" group of people.
There is NO moral difference between suicide pilots over New York, and suicide bombers in Tel Aviv. Murder is murder.

I would like to see how you react if one of your relatives is killed simply for boarding a bus, or sitting eating lunch. YOu would not be a bleeding heart for the Palestinians then.

As for the settlements, you may not agree with thier construction, but to remove them would not end terrorism. It would simply be a reward for terrorism, and invite more attacks.
The Palestinians have repeatedly stated thier aim of destroying Israel, regardless of borders. They want to build a country "from the river to the sea" (read any arab periodical) with the obveous result being the destruction of Israel.

Could you accept the destruction of Sweden?
I think not. So why do you accept less from us?

[IsraelAdvocate]

Originally posted by Northlander
your logic not mine. wonder who is a revisionist?
Ok, you agree that Israel did attack but you point out excuses for why they did it? All im saying is that it has been done before. The result of the war nevertheless was that Israel profited on it. The issue of settlers is also a result of the war. Its nothing less than expansion. The arabs gave you the chance, sure, but its still expansion. There are other examples in history and I can keep away from WWII if that is such a sensitive subject.

It's called self defense, genius.

I don't expect you to understand, since Sweden has sat out of every war in modern history.

BTW, you admitted that you realise Israel was attacked in '67, not the other way around. So why are you verbally attacking them for self defense?

Your country would do the exact same thing.

[MGB8]

My lord you are a revisionist - you'll deny the truth if it smacks you in the face.

67 was a defensive war not because of shipping closures, but because there was hard intelligence from the Mossad, the CIA, and the English that Egypt, Jordan and Syria were planning another attack...soon. Forces were massed.

Israel moved first, but war had been prepared for by her opposition first.

In essence, they telegraphed their strike, and got caught...but it is very clear who the aggressor is.


Originally posted by Northlander


no, not totally unprovoked. But an all out attack is not legitimate IMO, and others. There is always an official excuse for an attack. We have all heard it before. Some excuses better than israels and some worse. The Japanese attack on pearl harbour is just one example.
Would you consider their attack legitimate?
The result in 67 was that the attacker won. Even when the defender wins its not a guarantee that they can keep parts of the losing country. I have difficulties seeng why parts of germany should be american or british now. With your logic I can easily say that Germany was provoked before WWII, which they surely were in many ways. Your views on warfare is not only antique, its also dangerous for the future. We have international forums and laws to settle conflicts. For some countries to act regardless of international laws and gain advantages by that is dangerous. Israel is doing just that constantly which makes it a danger to us all. Sharons politics must be stopped not only for the palestinians and the israelis sake but also for the whole ME and even EU and USA in the long run. The politic with expanding and building new settlements is the best example.

[MGB8]

The essence of your quote is this "Your enemies, not mine! We wouldnt have any problems with cubans, russians, vietnamese, arabs and a hundred more nationalities if it wasnt for you. "

Do you understand (a) how false this is, and (b) how cowardly you are?

First, Sweden's problems with the russians FAR precedefes Israel's modern existence, so learn your own history. The US and Europe's problems with Russia similarly exist regardless of Israel.

Oh, and these problems would exist even without the US.

The problems with the Arabs, frankly, are mostly Europes making, too. After all, who were the occupiers for most of the 20th century? Who decided to carve up the lands with arbitrary lines and place some of these monstorous regimes in power. Tell you what, it wasn't Israel.

Cuba and Vietnam are directly related to russia, so see above. Vietnam was a problem for the french even without Communism.


As for bystanders that die in firefights - the responsibility, and culpability, is with those who placed them there in the first place - the people who started firing. That would be the "freedom fighters" hiding behind their women and children. Soldiers have the option of possibly getting killed or firing back - and in chaotic situations, bad things will happen.






Originally posted by Northlander
Your above statement is the reason people like you dont rule countries. Why doesnt matter? What world are you from? Apart from the fact things like this happens, the ONLY important thing is why. Without answers its impossible to prevent things. Without answers AND questions, we would still live in the middleages.

8 year old palestinian shot by IDF in Gaza yesterday. you dont think its important why things like that happens?
If it was my daughter I wouldnt ask questions maybe. Then I would agree to you. Then "why" is not important. Only revenge and protection. You are very much like the people you so utterly hate. Hamas, Islamistic Jihad etc. Same narrowminded views.


Your enemies, not mine! We wouldnt have any problems with cubans, russians, vietnamese, arabs and a hundred more nationalities if it wasnt for you.

they have died to defend or expand american interests only. all other reasons are smokescreens. And the people dying are mostly not even aware why they are doing it. They might think they fight for freedom even when they are preventing others from expressing their own, like vietnam. Or they might think they are fighting and dying to protect USA. Which have actually never happened. Apart from russian nukes, You have never been really threatened. Not like smaller countries. One could say you dont even have a clue, what its like to be up against someone stronger. Its easy to fight when you know you are going to win.
Its not brave, its not even always necessary. If you are even the slightest intelligent you know the mechanism of warfare and conflicts. Its seldom if ever about moral and right or wrong.
The winners write the history and they often tend to use the same dramaturgy over and over again. A bad leader. A misled people. Noble soldiers etc etc. USA has never fought a war for other interests than its own. Its just no such thing anymore. It would have been a crime against the american public if it had. Young american soldiers dies for white,influential, middleaged men who want to preserve their power and way of life, or gain more. These people does NOT come from compton. There are hundreds of thousands americans that would profit from a constant war. Large parts of the industry. Some americans die to
let other prosper. But its has nothing to do with defence.
As for IDF, they could contrary to US army really be a defender of their country. That is what they should do instead of protecting settlers that shouldnt exist in the first place. Or killing newborns in search of terrorists. The palestinians have lost many times more civilians than israel so its them that need protection.

We dont own you anything. You are just the latest empire in a long row. After US it will be another. USA just happens to be somewhat more human than some of the others to its allies and its inhabitants. Still as aggressive and brutal when someone stands in its way. Very much as Rome I would say. USA will never run out of enemies cause it needs enemies. its like a clockwork. after communism its terrorism or islam. After that it will be someone else. Its part of the foundation that a great power are built on. To be honest, USA only means anything to us when it comes to economics. It has not always been in our favour you know. That knowledge is the foundation the EU is built on.

For how long do you intend to kick ass? Until the price is to high to pay for the american public? When they finally get tired of making new enemies. Its not only neat little conventional wars anymore. When everybody has nuclear capability the military interventions will drop to zero is my guess. You cant win all wars forever. Others have thought that before and it has always ended the same way.

[MGB8]

And a sad one, too.

Europe's countries are the kings of hypocracy.

In Belgium they have a suit against Sharon pending, for killings that he at worst was inderectly responsible for, but nothing against those who have ordered the slaying of innocents on foregin soil: the Arafat's, Assads, Prince Saud, Khadafi, Khomeini's etc. of the world.

As for the rest of Europe - they can go F- themselves. Yes, europe has a range of opinions, but its like shades of orange among a rainbow.

Jews have to remember the one essential lesson of the 20th century - that Jews can rely only upon themselves for their protection and survival - and certainly not on the moral backbone of Europeans.

The EU is so afraid of increased oil prices and lost markets and an unruly internal arab population that it will sacrifice whatever it takes to appease the Arabs. Sharon's czech comment was 100% accurate. A bunch of Neville Chamberlein's, with absolutely no moral legitimacy at all, just arrogance, unjustified.

[bobbagina]

I just found israelforum.com tonight while aimlessly searching the internet, and I must say that, after reading this entire thread, I am throroughly entertained. I'd like to compliment Mediocrates and MGB8 on their badassedness :)

I just returned to sunny Florida from France and...even though I don't speak French, I could detect the media's extreme Pro-Palestinian stance. While 17 Israeli's were being murdered by Islamic Fundamentalists I watched some lame ass French reporters board a Red Crescent ambulance (bomb mobile) to video tape the terrible conditions that the palestinian's live in. One girl even had no ARM! And each pathetic shot of a disenfranchized Palestinian was followed by some annoying ass French babble and pictures of IDF soldiers manning roadblocks looking ready to kill. Amazing....

I also had trouble enjoying the fine Israeli cuisine offered by some restaurants in Marsaille. In fact, the owner of the restaur. actually ran after a man who unknowingly walked out of the restaur. with his kippah still on to warn him of the danger he potentially placed himself in.

So I can't necessarily judge all of Europe, but - there's one country down. I'd be delighted to visit Sweden or Germany in the hopes of seeing a statistically merited different stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If, as you say Northlander, that you judge the Israelis based on their actions...shouldn't someone judge the Palestinians based on their actions?

[MGB8]

Thanks, btw, its not just in France.

Here we deal with ABCnews and CNN talking about how a Palestinian "bomber" (like he's a legit war combatant) killed x people and then they say "Israel killed a 9 year old boy." Without any context! No mention that a group of palestinian attacked a group of soldiers, causeing a firefight were the boy was killed.

As if the Israeli military deliberatly targeted the kid.

The US media is just as disgusting. BUt, apparently several of the stations are heavily owned by Saudi oil interests.


Originally posted by bobbagina
I just found israelforum.com tonight while aimlessly searching the internet, and I must say that, after reading this entire thread, I am throroughly entertained. I'd like to compliment Mediocrates and MGB8 on their badassedness :)

I just returned to sunny Florida from France and...even though I don't speak French, I could detect the media's extreme Pro-Palestinian stance. While 17 Israeli's were being murdered by Islamic Fundamentalists I watched some lame ass French reporters board a Red Crescent ambulance (bomb mobile) to video tape the terrible conditions that the palestinian's live in. One girl even had no ARM! And each pathetic shot of a disenfranchized Palestinian was followed by some annoying ass French babble and pictures of IDF soldiers manning roadblocks looking ready to kill. Amazing....

I also had trouble enjoying the fine Israeli cuisine offered by some restaurants in Marsaille. In fact, the owner of the restaur. actually ran after a man who unknowingly walked out of the restaur. with his kippah still on to warn him of the danger he potentially placed himself in.

So I can't necessarily judge all of Europe, but - there's one country down. I'd be delighted to visit Sweden or Germany in the hopes of seeing a statistically merited different stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If, as you say Northlander, that you judge the Israelis based on their actions...shouldn't someone judge the Palestinians based on their actions?

[bobbagina]

I have long been dissapointed in the way that American Media covers the issue - not just major networks like CNN and ABC, but newspapers as well. The LA Times sucks particular ass. I opted to take a class with a bunch of freshman (yea...9th graders) last year because I am lazy. The teacher, a hick from northern Florida, attempted to give the class a rundown on the history of the region and some reasons for the current conflict. (the name of the class is Global Studies).

So naturally, he pulls out his most trusted source of information on the region, the goddamn Orlando Sentinel (which is so lame it takes its front page stories from the LA Times because it can't make up its own ********) and proceeds to shovel wheelbarrels full of horse **** into the mouths of the minority wonderkids (its a schedule filling course for eejits) . And you wonder why the ADL's recent poll showed undereducated minorities as having the highest rate of anti-semitism, while among university students and faculty the rate was a whopping 3%, with a 3% margin of error :)

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4109_12.asp

Maybe knowing is half the battle, GI Joe.

[Northlander]

Could you accept the destruction of Sweden?I think not. So why do you accept less from us?
No, I could not. IDF has the right and even obligation to protect Israel, of course. But that is still not whats happening.
It has happened but not now.
BTW, you admitted that you realise Israel was attacked in '67, not the other way around. So why are you verbally attacking them for self defense?
Havent said that. Israel started the war in 67 and they gaind territory from it. They can construct whatever reasons they want to. Their "massed forces" as CIA and Mossad put it , could as well be protection against Israel. Maybe their intelligence wrote their reports of Israeli capability. Its just guesses at best what would have, or would not have happened. Fact: Israel launched a full scale attack and took territory.

MGB8.
As goes for our problems with some nations. What is your point.
That we are cowards for not fighting out with the russians?
We have done on numerous occasions. It would not be smart nor constructive for a country the size of sweden to engage them. We have had incidents but always solved it politically. We have no overseas interests to protect. Our economy are not built to be dependent on foreign colonies etc. Its a chioce that has nothing to do with bravery or cowardism. Still its benefitial for us to live in peace. In the same way it has been profitable for US to wage war. Had we been attacked we would have fought back just the same as all other countries. Its just no use occupying us cause the benefits are far less than the price. An easy equation that has left us with the longest peace in the history. USA has never been occupied and has still gone to more wars than any nation the last 100 years. So what is really wrong with you guys? Just admit you have just a few to many people that think war is a good idea. In my opinion that is because you have never seen the conseqences for your self. To be honest. 9-11 is something that millions of people have suffered in other parts of the world. And usually it is USA that gives it to them. USA is always fighting for economical and political reason. Never moral.
No mention that a group of palestinian attacked a group of soldiers, causeing a firefight were the boy was killed.
They always mention that in european news. I happen to live here so I think I know better than you. What american media is failing to report is that the soldiers per definition is part of an occupation force. They are an invading force and are therefore legitimate targets for attacks. Israel or USA would do the same so why do you expect less from the arabs?
As if the Israeli military deliberatly targeted the kid.
How do you know they did not? I dont say they did. But at least its possible. It happens alot in all wars that soldiers deliberate kills civilians. Are Israelis morally superior? How come the numbers of killed palestinian children are so huge? Maybe its time to give out free glasses to IDF or get them into target shooting.
Maybe its something wrong in the equipment that automatically aims their weapons on children.
I'd like to compliment Mediocrates and MGB8 on their badassedness
Well, I had the same badass mentality I would just say something like. "Its not interesting WHY they killed the 8 year palestinian child and hundreds before him" We dont ask why. We just force the Israelis to leave us alone and stop killing our children by any means necessary. Lets kill one of them for evey of us."
the thing is that your hardline does not work. Neither does the hypothetical I used. It will in the end result in more and more bombs in Israel until the day you realise you have to try something else. USA will probably stop military inteventions abroad finally when their public get tired of constant terrorist attacks too. They will see that other countries live in peace and they will ask themself the magical question. Why is it that so many peoples hate us? Can it have ANYTHING to do with what we have done to others? Is it time to stop it?

[bobbagina]

How do you know they did not? I dont say they did. But at least its possible. It happens alot in all wars that soldiers deliberate kills civilians. Are Israelis morally superior? How come the numbers of killed palestinian children are so huge?
Northlander

Northlander, you have to ask yourself a basic question in order to see the reality of the situation:

Is the Israeli army's goal to cause Palestinian casualties and acquire more land?


If you think so, if you think that IDF soldiers are using Palest. kids as target practice, then you underestimate the capabilities of the IDF. If you think that the Israelis want more territory, than why haven't they allready captured all of the West Bank, expelled the Palestinians, and started their war campaign? Why did they give back the Sinai? When the IDF went through Jenin and found hundreds of weapons caches and bomb factories (which we can both agree were for the sole purpose of killing Israeli civilians), why didn't they simply fly precision F-16 sorties over the camps and bomb these factories? Instead, they put their foot soldiers in a high risk situation in order to reduce the number of Palestinian casualties, the people you allege they are racist against.

My uncle is in the IDF, he is a pilot. He just bought a new home that overlooks an arab village from atop a hill. When he wakes up in the morning, do you know what he does? He doesn't take his Galil or Uzi out of the closet and shoot at Palestinians going about their daily lives, he has g0ddamn breakfast with his children.

Every single day, given the opportunity, Arabs go find a nice vantage point atop a hill and snipe Israeli civilians. Why? To end the occupation? Or because they hate them?

Dont you understand that all the Israeli's want is peace? I have vast amounts of family there, all of whom have had to fight in wars against the arabs. They didn't all say, hey, lets start an army and go kill some arabs, occupy their land, and make our country bigger. They said, "hey" there are Arabs invading Israel everday on all of our borders, from Egypt, shooting katyusha rockets from lebanon and syria, and infiltrating into our homes in the nighttime to kill our children. And for that reason the Israeli Army drafts every single Israeli of age to fight a war that has been imposed upon them.

Northlander, I agree with you that the USA shouldn't actively impose its form of government on people who do not want it. But tell me, do you know what it's like to live in Saudi Arabia or any other Arab country if you are not Muslim?

Did you know that it is a crime to own a Bible in Saudi Arabia, and that people have been jailed for it? Did you know that no one is allowed to celebrate Christmas or Easter there, and that no churches or any denomination can be built there? Did you know that Jews are not allowed into Saudi Arabia, and that all things Jewish are a crime?

Before Israel took over the Old City in 1967, it was closed to Jewish worshippers. Who's allowed on the temple mount now? Muslims - there's a huge mosque there, remember?

What do you think the Arabs would have done, had they kept control of the most holy site in Judaism? Set up a council of Jews to allow them to worship freely? My A$$.

The outbreak of violence in Pakistan, Indonesia and parts of Africa are also being portrayed as territorial disputes by the press. But anyone with eyes in his head can see they too are Muslims against Hindus, Muslims against Christians, Muslims against anyone who is not Muslim.

Northlander, do you value your freedom to worship freely? You fail to see the magnanimity of the cause that you support - the overtaking of the infidel by the Muslim world. You might be kissing dirt and allah-akbaring to mohammed soon.

Do you value freedom? I know my country does, I know that Israel does, and so do most of the monarchies-turned-democracies in Europe that have naturally progressed over the course of history. Humans have the right to live in a state of freedom.

I can't speak for all of Israel, but I know that my family there sincerely wants security for their people and peace with their neighboors.

[Mediocrates]

I had a long response to North but ny nameserver fell over - ah well. Your answer is much better anyway, thank you.

[Mediocrates]

I guess all that I would add that the people who breathlessly tell me its my fault "they hate me.." don't grasp the basic truth that "they hate them too" It's just that we're a bigger target, easier to hit. Nobody ever got in trouble complaining about the phone company, you know.

[Northlander]

Thats the b/w view on it again. I have travelled enough to know that most, not all, people in the third world are perfectly aware of the fact that there are a whole spectrum of rich white folks too.
Something westerners apparently have difficulties doing when they judge muslims.
I have nothing positive at all to say about s.arabia. My girlsfriends father who is muslim by the way have already told me absolutely every horrible thing there is to say about that country. Nothing you ever think about that country comes even close to his anger. You miss my point. Islam is no threat to west. It might be a threat to Israel but thats not because they are muslims. Its of the resons I have stated over and over again. to create a state like that anywhere would have created problems. You could have put it in s.america and you would have had catholics against jews. You are blinded by hate or fear of muslims. They have more reason fearing us. Thats the fact. Just think aobut if the opposite was true. West can invade any country in the arab world anytime for any reason they see fit. Imagine the opposite situation. Arab carriers outside britain etc. Totally unreal situation. You are so familiar with the situation you cant see the reality. Its about means and choices. Israel has choices. Palestinians have none.

yes I belive that Israel would clean all territories from muslims and arabs if they got the chance. They know its political suicide and they would seize to exist rapidly, but they still would want that. To solve the problem fast and brutal. I still belive that is what some IDF soldiers feel like on occasions and then they freak out. Has always happened in wars and will always happen.

[bobbagina]

From Northlander:
yes I belive that Israel would clean all territories from muslims and arabs if they got the chance. They know its political suicide and they would seize to exist rapidly, but they still would want that. To solve the problem fast and brutal.

Please explain.

What situation would you consider Israel's "chance"?
Political suicide in who's eyes?
Who would cause them to "seize to exist"?

Ooo and isn't today's news lovely:

http://www.sr.se/rs/ind_eng.html

Scroll down to the part where Swedish Youth are attempting to indict Sharon for war crimes.

From Northlander:
Islam is no threat to west. It might be a threat to Israel but thats not because they are muslims. Its of the resons I have stated over and over again. to create a state like that anywhere would have created problems. You could have put it in s.america and you would have had catholics against jews.

What do you mean when you say 'create a state like that'?
Like what?

You also note that Islam 'might be a threat to Israel'. So you know it, America knows it, Israel knows it, but what are they to do about it? Allow Iran and Iraq to build nuclear plants and stage joint exercises simulating the capture of Jerusalem?

You could have put it in s.america and you would have had catholics against jews

This is a sincere question to you Northlander:
Why do you think that this is the case? (refering to above statement about Jewish state in South America)

I do agree with you, however about the implications of the reversal of roles. I do agree that Muslims are in an extremely demeaning situation, and that it would indeed be unacceptable for the West to be under constant threat of invasion from Muslim Super Powers. Again, I ask you, why is this the situation? Who put the Muslims in the deaming predicament of choicelessness and helpless life?

But Palestinians do have choices, they can abandon their mindset that the Jews will leave, and make the best of the ****ty situation they have placed themselves in: instate a government that will use the billions of dollars they receive in aid from Japan, the EU, America for the people! I guaruntee that the Jenin refugee camp could acquire more than a few pretty streets of duplexs for the billions and billions that they receive.

Please, Northlander, refer to my asked questions and answer them directly. Thank you.

[Mediocrates]

I have nothing positive at all to say about s.arabia. My girlsfriends father who is muslim by the way have already told me absolutely every horrible thing there is to say about that country. Nothing you ever think about that country comes even close to his anger.

No you miss the point. The point is not all muslims are evil, some muslims are evil, a few muslims are evil. The point is, whatever force that is going to come against you in the mid term future is going to be muslim and/or arab in nature and orientation. Whether its one guy or one million. You will not be invaded by Belgians or child workers from Hong Kong, or really angry peace actvists or people who hate snow or the gay army.

Islam is no threat to west. It might be a threat to Israel but thats not because they are muslims.

Did you leave out the word 'not', if so you proved my case. If not then you proved my case anyway.

Its of the resons I have stated over and over again. to create a state like that anywhere would have created problems. You could have put it in s.america and you would have had catholics against jews.

Which is saying that nationalistic detemination for Jews is somehow qualitatively different from that of any other group. Tamil Tigers, the Karen Tribes, Hutus, Ibo Nigerians, the separation of Pakistan.....Whereas some Brits or Belgians or French waved a wand over a map one day and proclaimed the name of a country and who could live there...We call that post colonial nationalism But in this one case somehow everyone wants to treat it different. Do you think that the partition of Pakistan from India didn't involve the movements and migration of millions of people? What's different? No ocean to travel across? Do you think that the disassembly of the 3CP didn't involve the self-organization of different peoples to different places? Of course it did and that's part of why Southern Asia is so dangerous.

They have more reason fearing us. Thats the fact. Just think aobut if the opposite was true. West can invade any country in the arab world anytime for any reason they see fit. Imagine the opposite situation. Arab carriers outside britain etc.

There are but they're oil carriers. The projection of power in the 21st C is as much economic as it is military. And in both cases generally the 'invader' was invited by the host government. Call it what you will but Arab countries have latched on to one important facet of geopolitics that the US can be coopted to be their internal police force, or the threat of one.

Its about means and choices. Israel has choices. Palestinians have none.

Compared to what exactly? You see a country like Israel and say, Hmmm if they just gave away a third of their country then all those people who wanted them all dead would suddenly rip off their monster masks and we'd all have a good laugh.

As long as Palstinians see themselves as permanent victims then you are right, nothing can be solved. It would as if in the 1920's when oil was first discovered in the mid east all the Bedouins went to the colonial powers and said "No way we won't pump a drop until you give us the country. We'd rather starve.

Those are the kinds of choices the Palestinians have.

I belive that Israel would clean all territories from muslims and arabs if they got the chance.

Why not the 1 out 5 Israelis who are Palestinian today? Everyone predicts an apocalypse but no one can point to one.

I still belive that is what some IDF soldiers feel like on occasions and then they freak out. Has always happened in wars and will always happen.

I don't pretend to read the hearth and the mind of the average 20 year old soldier in the field. I met a few this past weekend who are staying the summer with my kids. I do know that generally they're tying not to get shot.

[MGB8]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Northlander
[B]
No, I could not. IDF has the right and even obligation to protect Israel, of course. But that is still not whats happening.
It has happened but not now.

Havent said that. Israel started the war in 67 and they gaind territory from it. They can construct whatever reasons they want to. Their "massed forces" as CIA and Mossad put it , could as well be protection against Israel. Maybe their intelligence wrote their reports of Israeli capability. Its just guesses at best what would have, or would not have happened. Fact: Israel launched a full scale attack and took territory.

-> There were statements from Arab politicians before and after the fact stating to the contrary, Northlander. It was a planned invasion into Israel to destroy it. Do some research before spouting off this ignorance.


MGB8.
As goes for our problems with some nations. What is your point.
That we are cowards for not fighting out with the russians?
We have done on numerous occasions. It would not be smart nor constructive for a country the size of sweden to engage them. We have had incidents but always solved it politically. We have no overseas interests to protect. Our economy are not built to be dependent on foreign colonies etc.

-> The point was in response to you blaming all of your problems on the US or Israel, I think the quote was "We wouldn't have problems with the Russians or Arab countries without you..." Think again. You would. And you did before.



They always mention that in european news. I happen to live here so I think I know better than you. What american media is failing to report is that the soldiers per definition is part of an occupation force. They are an invading force and are therefore legitimate targets for attacks. Israel or USA would do the same so why do you expect less from the arabs?

-> Actually, the actual journalistic coverage in Europe, as opposed to the opinion pieces, I actually find much better than that in the United States. The opinion pieces are more ludicrous, but the actual journalism does in fact usually do a credible job. I was talking about the US. Still, choice of words are often done to negate palestinian responsibility.



How do you know they did not? I dont say they did. But at least its possible. It happens alot in all wars that soldiers deliberate kills civilians. Are Israelis morally superior?

-> YES. ISRAELIS, JEWS, ARE MORALLY SUPERIOR. WE DON'T TARGET INNOCENTS. You haven't seen indiscriminate bombings of civilians. You haven't seen people cheering with the blood of captured, no killed, Palestinian's on their hands like they did with those 2 soldiers. We don't use human shields. We do the minimum possible. WE HAVE TO BE morally superior. Don't you get it? With the backdrop of the Holocaust, everything we do is much more scrutinized and criticized INTERNALLY than it is outside Israel - but inside Israel it indeed is a discussion of morallity and proportionality, as opposed to Arab propaganda.


How come the numbers of killed palestinian children are so huge? Maybe its time to give out free glasses to IDF or get them into target shooting.
Maybe its something wrong in the equipment that automatically aims their weapons on children.

%95 of the Palestinian dead in the Intifadah were armed combatants, sometimes children, but armed with guns or bombs nonetheless. %70 of Israelis killed have been civilians - mostly women and children.


Open your friggin Eyes!!!

Stop just believing what you want to believe because of whatever fantasies about the world you have.

Some cultures ARE MORALLY SUPERIOR to others. The culture of the Nazis, the Bolesheviks, and the Japanese Empire are the extremes, but Islamic fundamentalism and Arafat's PLO are very very close.

[MGB8]

Originally posted by Northlander
Nothing you ever think about that country comes even close to his anger. You miss my point. Islam is no threat to west. It might be a threat to Israel but thats not because they are muslims. Its of the resons I have stated over and over again. to create a state like that anywhere would have created problems.

---------

Islam isn't. Militant Islam is. Or have you already forgotten September 11th. BTW, Before 9/11, Bin Laden had NEVER mentioned Israel as a reason for his actions. And there was a WTC bombing before 9/11, too. Not to mention hijackings, attacks on tourists (particularly in Egypt), etc. etc.

Militant Islam is a BIG THREAT to the west. Just because you hope that it isn't doesn't make it not so. That is the biggest sign of your cowardice, that you hope the "bad people will just go away." Learn from history - they don't - they have to be confronted and usually killed.



====================

. West can invade any country in the arab world anytime for any reason they see fit. Imagine the opposite situation. Arab carriers outside britain etc.

--- not any reason. They can't do that. You don't see the United States preparing to Invade Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to simply take over the oil fields and get revenge for financing Al-Qaida, do you?

In terms of Iraq, its because they (1) finance and support international terrorism, and (2) they are developing weapons, which, in the hands of terrorists could kill MILLIONS, and in the hands of Hussein could destabalize the region - remember the invasion of Kuwait and the Iran/Iraq war. Pointless, weren't they, but Sadaam still went ahead - he's an evil person.



------
"yes I belive that Israel would clean all territories from muslims and arabs if they got the chance. They know its political suicide and they would seize to exist rapidly, but they still would want that. To solve the problem fast and brutal. I still belive that is what some IDF soldiers feel like on occasions and then they freak out. Has always happened in wars and will always happen."
[/B]


WRONG! Why didn't it happen in '67 or '73. Why are there Arabs in the Israeli parliament? You SOB. There was one guy, Meir Kahane, who advocated EXPULSION, not elimination, of non-Israeli Arabs, and he was publically vilified by the Israeli mainstream. Now its seaming that maybe he was right - not morally right, mind you, but pragmatically so. What individual soldier might feel in times of battle, on the other hand, can't be controlled - they are human, you know, mostly 17-19 year old kids.

[Vic]

Originally posted by bobbagina
So I can't necessarily judge all of Europe, but - there's one country down. I'd be delighted to visit Sweden or Germany in the hopes of seeing a statistically merited different stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
I don't know about "statistically merited", but I believe you can walk through most of the cities in Europe in a Kippah. The risks are still less then, say, for an African, the main difference is that attacks on Jews get more publicity. The episode you describe sounds more like hysterics to me.

As for opinions - it's hard to tell. The average Joe follows the trend, the trend is set by the media and public figures who, in their turn deliver what they believe the average Joe wants to hear. There are many ugly incidents, but there is also a healthier undercurrent. The main problem is the inability of Jewish public figures to handle the situation in a sensible way.

[bobbagina]

From Vic:
I believe you can walk through most of the cities in Europe in a Kippah. The risks are still less then, say, for an African, the main difference is that attacks on Jews get more publicity.

True, you can through most cities. Due to the large Arab population in France, particularly Marseille, this becomes a different story. I assure you that its not simply hysterics, as many Jews have been targeted in that region of France.

The average Joe follows the trend, the trend is set by the media and public figures who, in their turn deliver what they believe the average Joe wants to hear

Don't you feel this to be dangerous though? - when the majority of people make their decisions based on trends and not facts.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this:

The main problem is the inability of Jewish public figures to handle the situation in a sensible way.

How do they handle the situation now, and what would be sensible?