Study: 27% of teens don't think they'll stay in Israel

[KSO]

Study: 27% of teens don't think they'll stay in Israel

By Yuval Yoaz, Haaretz Correspondent



Some 27 percent of Israeli teenagers do not think they will remain in Israel, compared to 13 percent of adults, according to a survey conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute two months ago.




Nearly half of Israeli teenagers do not feel they are "part of the country and its problems," compared to a quarter of adults, the survey found.

Nonetheless, there were no differences in the "Israeli pride" index, which recorded four out of every five respondees as proud to be Israeli.

The survey, entitled Democracy Index-Teenage Positions, is part of the institute's annual Democracy Index, and its findings are being published here for the first time. The complete survey, which comprised 1,200 adults and some 600 teens, will be presented to President Moshe Katsav next week.

The study also found that 43 percent of the teens support either refusal to serve in the territories or refusal to eject settlers, compared with 25 percent of those aged 18 and older, according to the study.

"The teenagers' support for refusenik positions is a warning light that demands attention," said the surveyors, Prof. Asher Arian, Pazit Ben-Nun and Shlomit Barnea.

The survey found that teens are more supportive than adults of refusenik positions of all kinds. While 75 percent of adults said a soldier must not refuse an order to evacuate settlers, only 57 percent of teens agreed with that statement. A slightly smaller gap was found regarding the refusal to serve in the territories: 71 percent of adults compared to 57 percent of teens said soldiers cannot refuse on grounds that they object to Israel's policy toward Palestinians.

Age was also a substantial factor when it came to implementing these positions in practice: Only 8 percent of adults, but 13 percent of teens said they would act unlawfully were the Knesset and cabinet to pass a resolution contrary to their views on security matters.

The survey divided Jewish teens according to their political tendencies. Surprisingly, teens of all political stripes assented to the refusal to evacuate settlers at similar rates - around 40 percent. In general, the survey found that teens are largely tolerant of ideological refusal motivated by reasons that are contrary to their own views.

The survey's authors found another cause for concern in teenagers' longing for "a strong leader" to head the country "instead of all the debates and laws." A high degree of support for this statement indicates strong anti-democratic tendencies among teens, whose response rate was 60 percent, compared to 58 percent among adults.

Other survey topics that indicate the degree of contentment with Israeli democracy show teens as more optimistic than older citizens. Fewer teens than adults agreed to statements that politicians do not take public opinion to heart, that you have to be corrupt to make it to the top in politics, that it doesn't matter whom you vote for since nothing changes anyway and that speakers should be barred from expressing public criticism of the state.

Arab teens view the political system as less corrupt, and display less desire for "strong leadership."

It is possible that the reason for these positions is that teens are substantially less interested in political matters. Only 29 percent of teens demonstrated a reasonable level of political knowledge (i.e., were able to answer correctly two out of three relatively simple questions, such as who is the Knesset speaker), compared to 61 percent of adults. Only half of the teens surveyed expressed any interest in politics, compared with two-thirds of the adults.

Among teens, Israeli-born Jews displayed the greatest involvement in politics and the broadest knowledge compared to other groups. Arab teens indicated greater interest in politics (46 percent) than immigrant teens (32 percent), but their knowledge level was lower than among their Jewish peers.

Contrary to a commonly held notion that Israelis (including teens) are "news junkies," whose interest in current events is significantly higher than in Western countries, Israel does not top the bill in these matters. A comparison of an interest in politics among teens in various countries found that Israel trails behind Cyprus, Russia and Denmark, for example.

A temporal comparison reveals that the degree of interest among Israeli teens fell from 58 percent in 2000 to just 50 percent in 2004.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by KSO
Study: 27% of teens don't think they'll stay in Israel



The far left spreads such propaganda for as long as I remember. Even if the numbers are accurate, they still mean NOTHING!

1. Do the numbers include non- Jews? An educated Israeli citizen, Arab may do well in Saudia. Many do. Same goes for non-Jewish russians, who rather be back in Russia, Germany or the USA.

2. The number that counts is only the number of Jews who ACTUALY emigrate (Yordim) and the number of Jews who immigrate, (do Aliya).

3. The numbers may shift over the year, dramaticly. As a result of ecconomics and possible victory over Arab terrorism.

4. Education. There are things that dramaticly influance the Zionist prespective to Israeli youth. Like a visit to see the remains of the Nazi death camps first hand, and military service.

5. Ha'aretz is NOT a reliable paper. It is hardly a paper. (It used to be, but not anymore). Ha'aretz is the far left propaganda brasure. Israel's own Pravda.

[Mediocrates]

Kayso 40% of teens hate their parents. Will they kill them? Clearly either you are a teen or don't have much contact with them.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Kayso 40% of teens hate their parents. Will they kill them? Clearly either you are a teen or don't have much contact with them.

I don't have much contact with teens, I am not ignorant enough (working on it...)

[Isiah 2:4]

Most teens probably want to get away from their country, from their parents etc I know i do for a while....doesn't mean i wont come back.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Most teens probably want to get away from their country, from their parents etc I know i do for a while....doesn't mean i wont come back.

But you won't find such statistics in the US or in most Europe, the survey just shows that for many young people The situation in Israel seems hopeless.

[Isiah 2:4]

Originally posted by KSO
But you won't find such statistics in the US or in most Europe, the survey just shows that for many young people The situation in Israel seems hopeless.

But there are many people from all over the world still going to Israel year after year to visit, and they go back, regardless of the situation, sometimes to make full aliyah. Its the economics that will keep making people leave. And yes, KSO, its the conflict that damages Israel's economy. But the religious, spiritual, ideological reasons to stay far outweigh anything else.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
But there are many people from all over the world still going to Israel year after year to visit, and they go back, regardless of the situation, sometimes to make full aliyah. Its the economics that will keep making people leave. And yes, KSO, its the conflict damges Israel's economy. But the religious, spiritual, ideological reasons to stay far outweigh anything else.

It's sad to admit, but ideology, spirituality and religion mean almost nothing for most people in their everyday life, If a man has a spare 50$ he'll probably spend them on cheap sneakers, and not on building zionizm,communism or democracy in iraq...

[Mediocrates]

2 of my kids profess to want to leave this country. I don't put much stock in it.

[mikuldj]

Well, because of the media image and the fact that this solution cant be solved politicaly (thats why I support dissengagement) it is fantastic that it isnt more people. If it is worrying, well of course! In this way Israel ressembles most third world countries (for example Algeria) were half of the youth would like to emigrate.

The youth most be given hope and hope is maybe not a real peace but a cold peace. I dont blame the far-right for opposing Sharons plan but rather that they dont have one for their own. Stalemate situation is Israels most dangerous enemy and worst to the spirit and hope for the youth.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mikuldj
Well, because of the media image and the fact that this solution cant be solved politicaly (thats why I support dissengagement) it is fantastic that it isnt more people. If it is worrying, well of course! In this way Israel ressembles most third world countries (for example Algeria) were half of the youth would like to emigrate.

The youth most be given hope and hope is maybe not a real peace but a cold peace. I dont blame the far-right for opposing Sharons plan but rather that they dont have one for their own. Stalemate situation is Israels most dangerous enemy and worst to the spirit and hope for the youth.

See my post above to get a better picture about the truth of things. Israeli youth was always protrait as weak by the left, as part of their scare tactics to promote their ideology. Such data and it source, are in accurate at best.

Israel's right has a solution, only that the right is not in power to promote it.

Arab civil population, that is not involved in terrorism must have the option to be evacuated from war zones into UN controlled areas, within the PA or out side. From Reffa to Gaza, for example.

Israel must employ tougher mussere to rid the region from terrorism and save the lives of BOTH Jews and Arabs.

Israel, to gather with a large European and American coalition, must employ heavy prussre against terror supporting countries like Syria and Iran.

Pity, is that the interest of Europe or the UN are hypocritical. Israel is no way near politicly possible to use the above tactics.

They only politicly REAL option, is status que, and making it as comfotable as possible. (ie no Yassin, Shade, Rantissi and other arch terrorists ).

[mikuldj]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
See my post above to get a better picture about the truth of things. Israeli youth was always protrait as weak by the left, as part of their scare tactics to promote their ideology. Such data and it source, are in accurate at best.
Israel's right has a solution, only that the right is not in power to promote it.
Arab civil population, that is not involved in terrorism must have the option to be evacuated from war zones into UN controlled areas, within the PA or out side. From Reffa to Gaza, for example.
Israel must employ tougher mussere to rid the region from terrorism and save the lives of BOTH Jews and Arabs.
Israel, to gather with a large European and American coalition, must employ heavy prussre against terror supporting countries like Syria and Iran.
Pity, is that the interest of Europe or the UN are hypocritical. Israel is no way near politicly possible to use the above tactics.
They only politicly REAL option, is status que, and making it as comfotable as possible. (ie no Yassin, Shade, Rantissi and other arch terrorists ).



Well, true that the left is doing everything they can to demoralize the country with untrue stories. But the far right have no solution and I must say while I agree of most what you say it doesnt help Israel. And the aggressivnes that is shown suits the arabs more us. A stalemate is the option but it must be drawn togheter with a non-occupation of palestinian population centers and the palestinians must have accses to a land the size of the territories (while the borders must be fit for strategic and religous necceseritys.) If the palestinians are cut of they are their own problem and much less ours. Take for example the deomgraphy (that everyone speaks of, nationalsport combined with archeology): a premodern (most important) palestinian state with a gaza population reaching 3 million in 15-20 years and westbank of 6 million will be a catastrophe for them and not for Israel and they will surely need peace for nessesary economic development.

Sharon is right, lets create palestine on our terms and watch how they discover their own problems. Palestine must be created how little anyone likes it.. not for peace but for Israel.

[Justcurious]

Originally posted by KSO
But you won't find such statistics in the US or in most Europe, the survey just shows that for many young people The situation in Israel seems hopeless.

I was a bit surprised at the great proportion of young Israelis wanting to move. True, such statistics are not available in most European countries, but I'd imagine the number of young people in the new members of the EU is relatively high. At least, I've read about the willingness of many Estonians to move to work in Finland and Germany and the same probably applies to Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by mikuldj
Sharon is right, lets create palestine on our terms and watch how they discover their own problems. Palestine must be created how little anyone likes it.. not for peace but for Israel.
The day you create Palestine not for peace is the day you can no longer stop them from doing what they want within their borders.

They will build airports and harbors and the sovereignity you suggest be granted to them means they can do damn well as they please, including building an army, navy and air force and Israel won't be allowed to lift a finger to stop them.

And when they do, they'll have the same thing in mind as they've had from day 1 - our destruction.

Count me out of such foolish plans. You'll find other threads where we "extreme rightists" suggest some ways of resolving this problem, not by commiting suicide and not be bleeding slowly to death.

[mikuldj]

Count me out of such foolish plans. You'll find other threads where we "extreme rightists" suggest some ways of resolving this problem, not by commiting suicide and not be bleeding slowly to death. [/B][/QUOTE]

True that they will continiue their attacs if they can. We must still create palestine.

What is the far-right solution? While I would like all of our promised land, it will not be now. We have waited 2000 years. Now we controll most of it, we can have patience to let time let us have the rest. But that is not now. Now is Israel and palestine. It is foolish to try to pretend that there is not 3,5million arabs in gaza and westbank. Let them collapse and then maybe within 50-100years we will truly have the promised land. But, that is my opinion, those who want everything will lose everything.. we will get the places in time but not now. So back to the question, what is the political/diplomatic far-right solution (not millitary)?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by mikuldj
True that they will continiue their attacs if they can. We must still create palestine.
Why? So that they can continue their attacks even further?

What is the far-right solution? While I would like all of our promised land, it will not be now.
It certainly won't be now when everyone keeps on repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

We have waited 2000 years. Now we controll most of it, we can have patience to let time let us have the rest.
At what cost to human life? How long? So far, the Arabs seem to have the upper hand at patience. They know what they want. Israelis, unfortunately, don't.

But that is not now. Now is Israel and palestine. It is foolish to try to pretend that there is not 3,5million arabs in gaza and westbank.
Again, look on other threads. My personal favorite: recapture Judea and Samaria and transfer all the Pals to Gaza, where they can drink the waters of Gaza and do what they like. Otherwise, Jordan is Palestine, both demographically and (very short) historically.

Let them collapse and then maybe within 50-100years we will truly have the promised land.
Move here first and raise your children and grand children here with such long term plans of suffering.

But, that is my opinion, those who want everything will lose everything.. we will get the places in time but not now.
Big mistake. We have the right here and now to defend ourselves and ensure that we're out of harms way as much as possible.

So back to the question, what is the political/diplomatic far-right solution (not millitary)?
There is no non-military solution.

[frizzer1]

Look,if terrorists were blowing up buses,hotels,and restaurants here in canada and you couldn't even leave your house without worrying about getting murdered,add to that international condemnation of any attempt on our part to stop the terrorists and guess how many canadian teens would say they don't expect to stay here....how about all of them?
Seems to me it's a testament to the israeli spirit and determination to stand up to the islamic fascists that so many are committed to staying.

[KSO]

Originally posted by frizzer1
Look,if terrorists were blowing up buses,hotels,and restaurants here in canada and you couldn't even leave your house without worrying about getting murdered,add to that international condemnation of any attempt on our part to stop the terrorists and guess how many canadian teens would say they don't expect to stay here....how about all of them?
Seems to me it's a testament to the israeli spirit and determination to stand up to the islamic fascists that so many are committed to staying.

The problem in Israel now, is the feeling you get when you live there, is a feeling of decline, a feeling of a dying state, and that's not only connected to terror, it will require a longer explanation but when a person lives in Israel he see the focus that Israeli culture has on death ( while for example American culture is very much focused on reproduction and survival) usualy a culture that is focused on death is a culture of a very unhealthy society.
Israel is sadly declining and the sad thing is that such a young country doesn't know how to change the political elite that causes that decline, the US was couple of times on a verge of collapsing but everytime it battled the people who caused it (the civil war, Teddy Roosevelts fight against Oligarhy and a couple more) A major change is required in Israel in order to bring back hope, todays Elite has to be moved away (By elite is Army Leaders, heads of Goverment monopolies and many top bearoucrats)

[Mediocrates]

I don't think the unaudited opinions of teenagers are apripro of anything at all. As the parent of three of them I can say with some authority that when you put teenagers in charge what you get is histrionic drama and Romeo + Juliet.

What are the leading causes of death of teenagers: suicide for no obvious reason, accidents/high risk behavior and random murder. Not exactly a measured mature response from someone who understands much of the difficulties of life.

In fact if anything, the notion that Israeli teenagers say they want to leave is indication that they love their lives and they want to preserve their world in the only way they understand that anyone will listen to them.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I don't think the unaudited opinions of teenagers are apripro of anything at all. As the parent of three of them I can say with some authority that when you put teenagers in charge what you get is histrionic drama and Romeo + Juliet.

What are the leading causes of death of teenagers: suicide for no obvious reason, accidents/high risk behavior and random murder. Not exactly a measured mature response from someone who understands much of the difficulties of life.

In fact if anything, the notion that Israeli teenagers say they want to leave is indication that they love their lives and they want to preserve their world in the only way they understand that anyone will listen to them.

Teenagers opinions are maybe not always funded, but let's remember dogs are even dumber and they predict earthquakes, So teenagers are a mirror for what's most adults think.

[Mediocrates]

Absolute rubbish. Adults say 'yes', 'up', 'now', 'wet', 'cold', 'happy'. Teenagers say 'no', 'down', 'later', 'dry', 'hot', 'miserable'.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Absolute rubbish. Adults say 'yes', 'up', 'now', 'wet', 'cold', 'happy'. Teenagers say 'no', 'down', 'later', 'dry', 'hot', 'miserable'.

Mainly on music, drinking and boys\girls issues on political issues you'll rarely find people who think completely different from their parents, especialy at young age where they rarely exposed to other sources and opinions.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by KSO
Mainly on music, drinking and boys\girls issues on political issues you'll rarely find people who think completely different from their parents, especialy at young age where they rarely exposed to other sources and opinions.
As a religious parent, with much association with many non-religious parents, I would say your statement does not reflect reality.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
As a religious parent, with much association with many non-religious parents, I would say your statement does not reflect reality.

Listen dad, you are so square, you totaly don't understand and don't respect me, I'll run away!

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by KSO
Listen dad, you are so square, you totaly don't understand and don't respect me, I'll run away!
It worked! :p :p :p

[KSO]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
It worked! :p :p :p

BTW can you give me some cash for an appartment for me and my pregnant girlfriend and my band needs a new drumkit...

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by KSO
BTW can you give me some cash for an appartment for me and my pregnant girlfriend and my band needs a new drumkit...
Ask you mom. :D :D :D

[Kev]

Study: 27% of teens don't think they'll stay in Israel


But you won't find such statistics in the US or in most Europe, the survey just shows that for many young people The situation in Israel seems hopeless.


You are grasping at statistics that I would consider rather questionable, at best, in my opinion.

I grew up in the wonderful socialist country of Canada and had all of the world at my fingertips.
I wasn't dealing with numerous attacks on buses where I had to fear for the life of my loved ones or myself.
I didn't have to join the army and even I wanted to escape Canada to a more exotic locale, and did, for a few years.

Your making far too much of that claim that so many teens wish to leave Israel.


Secondly, a great number of teens are left wingers, partly because they are still a bit naive and haven't been out in the world on their own and many will change their views once they are married, brining up children and paying taxes.


Teens of any country or nationality will always wish to run away.
Just because someone chose to look into it where Israel is concerned as opposed to America, is really of little interest.

[Kev]

The problem in Israel now, is the feeling you get when you live there, is a feeling of decline, a feeling of a dying state


So what?


And you will find thousands who feel the same way about Canada and then you will find thousands upon thousands more who believe it is the best country in the world to live.

[Mediocrates]

The correct answer is, I will take in your children and rear them properly insofar as you can't. But as for you and your shiksa, you can't come home. Now go grow some maturity, get your life organized and come back when you're done. It's not impossible w/o your kids but it's well nigh impossible if you do. And when you come back and your head is still up your butt I will sue you for custody.


Was that crystal clear enough for you, slacker?


-Love, Mom & Dad

[KSO]

Originally posted by Kev
You are grasping at statistics that I would consider rather questionable, at best, in my opinion.

I grew up in the wonderful socialist country of Canada and had all of the world at my fingertips.
I wasn't dealing with numerous attacks on buses where I had to fear for the life of my loved ones or myself.
I didn't have to join the army and even I wanted to escape Canada to a more exotic locale, and did, for a few years.

Your making far too much of that claim that so many teens wish to leave Israel.


Secondly, a great number of teens are left wingers, partly because they are still a bit naive and haven't been out in the world on their own and many will change their views once they are married, brining up children and paying taxes.


Teens of any country or nationality will always wish to run away.
Just because someone chose to look into it where Israel is concerned as opposed to America, is really of little interest.

There are not many teen left wingers in Israel, infact most teens are now quite militant (with the helping hand of our beloved media) the situation of hopelessnes in Israel is probably not much connected to Terror, the people of Israel learned to live with terror as part of daily life, just like car accidents and crime, Israel seems like quite a hopeless place for the insider whatever he is on the left of the political map or on the right of it, it seems more and more that we are a dying country and the complete disgust most people develop toward politics makes people think about leaving instead of trying to cope with the situation from inside.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by KSO
There are not many teen left wingers in Israel, infact most teens are now quite militant (with the helping hand of our beloved media) the situation of hopelessnes in Israel is probably not much connected to Terror, the people of Israel learned to live with terror as part of daily life, just like car accidents and crime, Israel seems like quite a hopeless place for the insider whatever he is on the left of the political map or on the right of it, it seems more and more that we are a dying country and the complete disgust most people develop toward politics makes people think about leaving instead of trying to cope with the situation from inside.
Once again not true. There are tons of left wing teens. Minority? Maybe but a gigantic one.

Terror has no effect? It certainly does. This can be a depressing country to live in if all you're here for is to have a coke and burger at McDonalds. It's eaiser elsewhere.

Dying country? Far from it. Lots of doubt, yes, but far away from dying.

[Mira~]

Originally posted by KSO
There are not many teen left wingers in Israel, infact most teens are now quite militant (with the helping hand of our beloved media) the situation of hopelessnes in Israel is probably not much connected to Terror, the people of Israel learned to live with terror as part of daily life, just like car accidents and crime, Israel seems like quite a hopeless place for the insider whatever he is on the left of the political map or on the right of it, it seems more and more that we are a dying country and the complete disgust most people develop toward politics makes people think about leaving instead of trying to cope with the situation from inside.

I saw it too, KSO, which weighed into my decision not to go to law school here in the States. I won't go so far as to say "dying," but the country is at a critical point where you can see evidence of decline in some areas. I only saw a glimpse of what is happening to the Israeli psyche, and not everyone I met internalized the situation in the same way. What I saw, were a people who felt largely isolated in the world, people who had learned to live with what was at the time, daily suicide bombings throughout the country, but were struggling with the existential threats of mega attacks and other unconventional forms of warfare, maintaining their moral legitimacy in a situation where they saw themselves as the underdog in the Israeli-Arab conflict, but an occupier in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a troubled economy, and total lack of faith in the political leadership to make things better. I would say that many of the people I met were very tired, even young people, they seemed a lot older than they should. The people give off an energy there that says, this can't go on like this forever. What are you going to do to help us? People do love their country, but they are looking for an escape hatch, just in case, because the situation is a pressure cooker, and the way the world deals with the conflict, all the terrible ideas and half-measures that are thrown on the board by the so-called leaders throughout the world, the arrogance of leaders and "good people" from the outside who scold them and the internal leaders who can't take a stand one way or another, they know that these solutions are not enough. The hope is that whatever is finally decided about THEIR lives, it will end up being the least painful of all possible routes. Nobody expects a miracle. Nobody believes that the conflict with magically disappear with a piece of paper. And then, even if you could get the conflict to magically disappear, then they know that they face the real challenge, which is to confront all the internal strife.

[elke]

It seems to me, that the "feeling that it's a dying country" is, in large part, due to such sentiments as KSO expresses. My impression is similar to Mira's: the main culprit seems to be the isolation.

Israelis feel small and fragile. They feel like no one is on their side. They look at the dot on the map that they are, and at the rest of the huge world, whose critical eyes - and worse, critical tongues and military arms - are unwaveringly trained on their little patch.

The situation is akin to a straight-A student, who is surrounded by a bunch of stupid bullies in the school yard; whose main problem with the straight-A student is precisely that s/he is actually GOOD at something! The only way the A-student can go home with limited bruises, is by learning karate and beating them at their own game; but the administration and teaching personnel, - who should know better, - are at best, entreating the bullies "not to be bad boys", and at worst, egging the bullies on.

For crying out loud, people, haven't we learned over the past 10,000 years of civilization NOT TO PICK ON PEOPLE! To admire achievement, rather than idiocy??? Or are we still in the mentality of the school yard??? :mad:

[philingraham]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Once again not true. There are tons of left wing teens. Minority? Maybe but a gigantic one.

Terror has no effect? It certainly does. This can be a depressing country to live in if all you're here for is to have a coke and burger at McDonalds. It's eaiser elsewhere.

Dying country? Far from it. Lots of doubt, yes, but far away from dying.

I have raised three kids, now in their 20's, all of which have resisted me. Their political orientation varies. But I have no doubt that confronted with the hard realities of the adult world, they will make good decisions. To suggest that Israeli kids are any different, regardless of the current situation they find themselves in, is absurd...

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by philingraham
I have raised three kids, now in their 20's, all of which have resisted me. Their political orientation varies. But I have no doubt that confronted with the hard realities of the adult world, they will make good decisions. To suggest that Israeli kids are any different, regardless of the current situation they find themselves in, is absurd...
Then we're pretty much in agreement (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=98729#post98729). :)