Why is the whole world against Israel? Part 2

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander

1. I think its obvious that whenever the pal-isr conflict is discussed here we almost instantly get into the discussion of islamic fundamentalists taking over the world and anti-semitism in europe.

2. When it comes to europe I think the discussion is exaggerated. A few arab hooligans as Takeo rightly puts it destroys synagogs etc. I for one live in europe and I still dont belive there is this raising anti-semitic movement here.
The biggest threat for jews in europe is probably Israel ignoring human rights.
1. Yes. Islamic terrorism is at the heart of the Arab/Israeli conflict, together with the brutal and corrupt Arab regimes which use the conflict as a means of holding on to their power. That is why Iran, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia incite, train and finance the Palestinian terrorists.

Sure, we can talk about a land dispute, but the issue of land has been resolved in negotiations in Camp David 2000.

What's holding up progress is the Islamic terrorist infrastructure originating from outside the Palestinian territories.

2. Takeo simply denies anti-Semitism in France, despite the obvious facts. He will tell you that it is a few hooligans, etc., but there have been probably close to 380 anti-Semitic incidents in France alone at this point.

Maybe you and Takeo don't personally experience a rise in anti-Semitism because it is primarily directed at Jews who appear to be Jewish. For example, those who attend Jewish community centers, those who pray at temples and those who wear traditional Jewish jewelry or attire.

But denying the facts doesn't change the reality of the ugly face of European racism from the extreme Left (like Takeo's communist party) or from the extreme Right (like in Austria, France, Germany and Russia).

Still, hypocritical Europeans (and Americans, too) never go out to demonstrate against anti-Semitism, but instead go out to demonstrate against Israel's right of self-defense. This discrimination is why all these self-described human-rights activists are themselves giving moral ligitimacy to acts of Arab terrorism and are often as guilty as the terrorists themselves.

[takeo]

"1. Yes. Islamic terrorism is at the heart of the Arab/Israeli conflict, together with the brutal and corrupt Arab regimes which use the conflict as a means of holding on to their power. That is why Iran, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia incite, train and finance the Palestinian terrorists.
Sure, we can talk about a land dispute, but the issue of land has been resolved in negotiations in Camp David 2000.
What's holding up progress is the Islamic terrorist infrastructure originating from outside the Palestinian territories. "

The land disputes haven't bee resolved in camp David 2000, that's a myth. the Palestinians don't agree with Israeli controll of the borders areas nor do they agree on Eastern Jerusalem, that would not be an equal part of the Palestinian state according to the plans, by the way there were also difficultires according to the settlements.
It's sure that SOME countries, mostly fundamentalist ones, still finance terror groups who want more than the land and refugee-disputes to be solved and the israeli occupation to end, they want to destroy Israel.
But MOST Arab countries don't share that goal and don't support that kind of extreme movements, as well as MOST Palestinians don't support Hamas or Islamic Jihad, who want the destruction of Israel based on religion, in other words they are a minority as well as the parties in israel that favour genocide against the Palestinians are a minority in Israel. (btw: lomplighter, you said somewhere that you can understand people who support genocide against the palestinians )
Most Palestinian "terrorists", even if they use sometimes repulsing methods (as al-aqsa), don't fight for the destruction of Israel and are no Muslim-extremists. Also the leftist PLF are not religious (they had a Christian as their leader), have said that the destruction of Israel is not their goal and by the way have not attacked innocent civilians. And of course the PA and tanzim have declared over and over that the destruction of Israel is not their goal and have never been very religious.


"2. Takeo simply denies anti-Semitism in France, despite the obvious facts. He will tell you that it is a few hooligans, etc., but there have been probably close to 380 anti-Semitic incidents in France alone at this point. "

well, a few people can do a lot of harm, as we have seen in the German school recently. What i mean is that the big majority of French and even Arab French are not anti-semitic and i can say this based on my experiences and based on what i see and hear in the society. Even people who are very recognisable as Jewish can walk around in France without danger, even in Arab quarters as where i live, many do. There is a problem however and we are searching to avoid it in the future and prosecuting people who are responsible.
"
"But denying the facts doesn't change the reality of the ugly face of European racism from the extreme Left (like Takeo's communist party) or from the extreme Right (like in Austria, France, Germany and Russia). "

Nobody is denying the problems but you shouldn't exaggerate either and create paranoia. By the way your friend lomplighter doesn't think extreme-right in france, austria or denmark is a bad thing, i can't blame him because its views are remarcably similar to his views. About the communist party i already told you that many in the party are of Jewish origin and that i never ever encountered anti-semitism in the party.

"Still, hypocritical Europeans (and Americans, too) never go out to demonstrate against anti-Semitism, but instead go out to demonstrate against Israel's right of self-defense. This discrimination is why all these self-described human-rights activists are themselves giving moral ligitimacy to acts of Arab terrorism and are often as guilty as the terrorists themselves."

Because the problems in the Middle-east and the faith of the Palestinians are much worse than the incidents happening in Europe or the US, in fact it can't even be compared. Anyone but staunch Sharon-supporters can see this reality.

[Mediocrates]

"Because the problems in the Middle-east and the faith of the Palestinians are much worse"

is that a typo? if so do you mean 'fate'?

[takeo]

last quote from cekirge: "Israel's situation is certainly not one that I would wish for any nation. They got a whole population, with virtually no supporters, against them. Palestinians also got a legitimate claim on WB and GS. They are in a war that in no way can be fought in a "nice and democratic" way, as Europeans demand.And the worst problem being, several Palestinian factions to be dealt with, instead of one. Unfortunately I also do not belive Israel's problem would vanish even if they gave into Palestinian demands. I wish the best for both nations, and hope for a less bloody confrontation."
and lomplighter responding: "Perhaps governments do not openly support Israel but many polls that I?ve seen indicate support from the general population. At this point I wouldn?t be surprised that fear is a factor in governments shying away from openly supporting Israel.
Call Le Pen a fascist, racist or anti Semitic but I still see the man as having a lot of guts standing up to Muslim Fundamentalist elements. I would say there?s plenty of evidence that terrorists or assassins succeed in altering the course of history from time to time and these people don?t mind forfeiting their lives."

You are right that all the problems wouldn't vanish at once, as there are indeed different palestinian factions, but it would make it much more easy for israel to isolate and destroy (and divide...) the extremist factions that want to destroy israel as a whole. It would not be any longer israel against the palestinians (and the world), it would be a small group of palestinians against the whole world and most of the palestinians, a lost case.
polls indicate that most europeans are more sympathic to the palestinian cause, even if they condamn some of the methods used by the palestinians. Le Pen will do nothing about islamic fundamentalism, instead his measures would destroy the integration of Arabs into the french society, isolate the Arabs and thus creating MORE fundamentalism instead of less. We have seen it in the cities the FN was in power. If le Pen would have been in charge we would still have our own Algerian war going on.

"It may be old fashioned rhetoric when you point out that guests shouldn?t be defending horrendous crimes. Is it acceptable to agree with that? "

they can defend whatever they like, as long as they stick to the law we can't touch them, as we can not charge you for sympatising with le Pen...
are 50 + 1 palestinians for the killing of innocent Jews? i doubt it, anyway, that's not because of Islam but because of the way Israel treated their own children...

and here you are digging your own grave: "You can?t base your whole opinion on Judaism based on the actions of individual acts. Calling for the destruction of all the Palestinian people is extreme although I can understand why a person would do that. " "Is it innocent rhetoric when they call for the destruction of human life? Are they different than the Muftis defending crimes against children? I think not! Should their hearts be ripped from their bodies and be fed to pigs? I think so"

So i am a little confused, people who call for destruction of human life should their hearts be ripped from their bodies and be fed to the pigs (by the way i don't think that's allowed according to the Geneva-conventions...) or are they extreme but understandable?????????????

"The past can?t be altered but it would seem like the future can be shaped. Islamic Fundamentalists are trying to do just that through terror within their own countries.
I see Arafat as an Islamic Fundamentalist equal to the bin Laden?s of the world"

I think that first two sentences can apply for all policy, especially us-policy. Arafat is not a fundamentalist if not he would be the leader of Hamas and he would never seek peace with Israel.

[takeo]

sorry, my english is not so good, i mean "fate" of course

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
The land disputes haven't bee resolved in camp David 2000, that's a myth. the Palestinians don't agree with Israeli controll of the borders areas nor do they agree on Eastern Jerusalem, that would not be an equal part of the Palestinian state according to the plans, by the way there were also difficultires according to the settlements.
LOL.

The myths are those you and other Palestinian apologists are trying to present.

In fact, in this article, Fred Barnes reports on the Palestinian myths regarding this topic:

Myths of the Intifada
Yasser Arafat has propagated three myths about the deals he turned down. Now Dennis Ross has set the record straight.
by Fred Barnes
04/25/2002 12:00:00 AM

PALESTINIAN and other apologists for Yasser Arafat have propagated three myths about his failure to reach peace with Israel. And only now--two years after Israeli-Palestinian peace talks collapsed because of Arafat's intransigence--is the truth becoming known. This is mostly thanks to Dennis Ross, the Middle East negotiator for both the first Bush administration and President Clinton...

In December 2000, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were brought to Washington. And on December 23, President Clinton presented a new plan to them. The Palestinians would get 97 percent of the West Bank, Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem would become the capital of the new Palestinian state, refugees would be allowed to return to Palestine but not Israel, and a $30 billion fund would be established to compensate refugees. This was the final offer: The cantons were gone and a land link to Gaza was included...

How can Ross be so sure of that? He was in the room with Clinton and Arafat when it happened...

Ross insists the Palestinian negotiators were ready to accept the offer. They "understood this was the best they were ever going to get. They wanted [Arafat] to accept it." He refused. Why? Ross believes Arafat simply doesn't want to end the conflict with Israel. His career is governed by struggle and leaving his options open. "For him to end the conflict is to end himself," Ross said.

What's important about the history of peace talks in the Middle East is what it tells us about Arafat. The inescapable conclusion is that he will never reach a settlement with Israelis leading to two countries, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace. The Israelis? An honest recounting of the Clinton-led peace talks shows they were willing, though hardly eager, to make substantial concessions to reach a settlement.."

Full Article (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/168lewqp.asp)

[L@mplighterM]

Quote from takeo:

Nobody is denying the problems but you shouldn't exaggerate either and create paranoia. By the way your friend lomplighter doesn't think extreme-right in france, austria or denmark is a bad thing, i can't blame him because its views are
remarcably similar to his views. About the communist party i already told you that many in the party are of Jewish origin and that i never ever encountered anti-semitism in the party.

LETS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT I HAVE NEVER AND WILL NEVER SUPPORT HAIDER. I HAVE NEVER STATED THAT I SUPPORT AUSTRIA.

[takeo]

OK, but in Denmark and France yes.
(actually strange because Austrian fascists are the most moderate of the three)

[takeo]

The article is one-sided.
one thing is probably true: ""We wanted them to understand we meant what we said," Ross said. "You don't accept it, it's not for negotiation, this is the end of it, we withdraw it . . . It couldn't be the floor for negotiations. It was the roof." So for Arafat, it was take it or leave it. He left it, and soon the negotiating environment changed with the election of Sharon and George W.Bush "

This is not a negociation, when will the US and Israel understand that negociations mean BOTH sides agree and negotiate.

the offer was not accepted because of the reasons explained below:
In the Guardian newspaper on 14 April 2001, diplomatic editor Ewen MacAskill wrote:

"The Israelis portrayed it as the Palestinians receiving 96% of the West Bank. But the figure is misleading. The Israelis did not include parts of the West Bank they had already appropriated.
The Palestine that would have emerged from such a settlement would not have been viable. It would have been in about half-a-dozen chunks, with huge Jewish settlements in between - a Middle East Bantustan. The Israeli army would also have retained the proposed Palestinian state's eastern border, the Jordan valley, for six to 10 years and, more significantly, another strip along the Dead Sea coast for an unspecified period: so much for being an independent state.
[...]
A genuinely generous offer by Barak might have secured peace. That was the missed historic opportunity. If Israel had been more magnanimous at Camp David, it could have had the greater prize of long-term stability.
There is a huge danger attached to the Israeli view that Arafat spurned a great offer. Accepting this version perpetuates the Israeli myth that the Palestinians will not be happy until the Jews are pushed back into the sea and that the West Bank and Gaza are full of gunmen and bombers intent on making that happen.
There are such people - but most Palestinians are interested less in the destruction of Israel than in establishing a proper Palestinian state. Most are as exercised about the poor quality of the leadership round Arafat and about the endemic corruption and lack of democracy in their own society as they are about Israel. What they want is for the Israeli army to go home and to take the Jewish settlers with them. There will be no peace until that happens."

"Source: "The real deal; Ewen Macaskill: Israel's View That Arafat Missed A Chance For Peace Under Barak Is Dangerously Deluded", the Guardian, 14 April 2001."

Israeli academic Tanya Reinhart wrote a July 2001 article in Yediot Aharonot, addressing the "massive propaganda about the far reaching concessions which Barak supposedly offered and which the Palestinians rejected." Reinhart asserted:

"The only clear element of Barak's plan in Camp David was the immediate annexation by Israel of about 10 percent of the West Bank land. These include the settlement blocks which are close to the center of Israel and in which there are already over 150,000 Israeli settlers. But the bigger fraud of Barak's plan, which has not received any attention in the public debate, is the fate of the rest of the 90 percent which were supposedly designated to belong to the "Palestinian state". The situation in these areas is easily visible today: These lands are cut up by 37 isolated settlements which were purposely built in the midst of the Palestinian population to enable future Israeli control of these areas. As a result, 2 million Palestinians are crowded in enclaves which consist of about 50 percent of the West Bank, and the other 40 percents are blocked by the defense array of some 40,000 settlers. As always, unofficial rumors were spread in the media that Israel intends to evacuate these areas in some future. But all relevant government offices clarified repeatedly that no plan is being prepared for the evacuation of even a single settlement. First, the Palestinians need to prove that our imposed arrangements work, and then we will of course discuss and consider."

"Source: "Out now! A simple and human step," by Tanya Reinhart, Yediot Aharonot, 8 July 2001. Originally in Hebrew."

8 July 2001 article in the New York Times. Robert Malley, special assistant for Arab-Israeli affairs to President Bill Clinton from 1998 to 2001 and a member of the American peace team at Camp David, identified three "fictions" about the Palestinian failure at Camp David. The latter two of these are highly relevant to the generosity misperception: "



"Yes, what was put on the table was more far-reaching than anything any Israeli leader had discussed in the past -- whether with the Palestinians or with Washington. But it was not the dream offer it has been made out to be, at least not from a Palestinian perspective. "

"To accommodate the settlers, Israel was to annex 9 percent of the West Bank; in exchange, the new Palestinian state would be granted sovereignty over parts of Israel proper, equivalent to one-ninth of the annexed land. A Palestinian state covering 91 percent of the West Bank and Gaza was more than most Americans or Israelis had thought possible, but how would Mr. Arafat explain the unfavorable 9-to-1 ratio in land swaps to his people? "

"In Jerusalem, Palestine would have been given sovereignty over many Arab neighborhoods of the eastern half and over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City. While it would enjoy custody over the Haram al Sharif, the location of the third-holiest Muslim shrine, Israel would exercise overall sovereignty over this area, known to Jews as the Temple Mount. This, too, was far more than had been thinkable only a few weeks earlier, and a very difficult proposition for the Israeli people to accept. But how could Mr. Arafat have justified to his people that Israel would retain sovereignty over some Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, let alone over the Haram al Sharif? As for the future of refugees -- for many Palestinians, the heart of the matter -- the ideas put forward at Camp David spoke vaguely of a "satisfactory solution," leading Mr. Arafat to fear that he would be asked to swallow an unacceptable last-minute proposal. "

"Source: "Fictions About the Failure at Camp David," by Robert Malley, New York Times, 8 July 2001. Accessing article may require registration. "



"When promoting the Barak 'generosity' myth, few seem to consider the profound Palestinian generosity of its own 'offer' throughout the peace process since its beginnings at the Madrid talks. In calling for an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza, there is an implicit forsaking of Palestinian soverignty to the parts of 1948 Palestine that lie outside these two areas. Expressed more bluntly, Palestinians have been explicitly negotiating -- for a decade now -- for a state in just one-quarter of their historic homeland: "



"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el- Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises. "

"Source: "Fictions About the Failure at Camp David," by Robert Malley, New York Times, 8 July 2001. Accessing article may require registration. "

[takeo]

here the Palestinian position concerning Camp david and later peace-negociations:

At a 6 April 2001 Center briefing f or the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine in Washington D.C., Omar Dajani, Amjad Atallah and Nisreen Haj-Ahmad -- legal advisors to the Palestinian Negotiation Support Unit -- challenged the popular perception of Barak's offer:

"Omar Dajani stated that Palestinians want viability, independence, and choice, all of which were missing from Barak's proposals. "

"According to Dajani, viability involves "development potential and [territorial] contiguity." This would result in more "predictability," allowing Palestinians to make arrangements for travel and the transfer of goods without worrying about checkpoints and closures. This element of predictability has been absent under occupation, resulting in a "tremendous psychological" and "economic cost." Barak's offer disregarded these concerns. It would have led to Palestinian islands in East Jerusalem within a "sea" of Israeli settlements and Israeli annexation of land all the way to Jordan."

"The Palestinians' shortage of water resources and agricultural land was neglected by Barak's proposals. Annexation of "large swaths of the territory" over the Western Aquifer would increase Israel's proportion of water under international law, thus reducing the Palestinians'. This aquifer primarily lies under West Bank land and is the "best" and "most abundant" Palestinian water source. As for their agricultural needs, the only area left for development is the Jordan Valley, which Israel sought to keep under long-term lease."

"On the topic of independence, the Palestinians asked Israel to "cede overriding authority" over air, water, and other key issues, to them. Israel was willing to recognize Palestinian "sovereignty" in these areas, but wanted to maintain overriding control."

"On Dajani's third point, he said the "dominant feature" of refugee life has been "an absence of choice." Some refugees may choose to stay in Jordan, some may choose third country resettlement, some may move to the Palestinian state, and some may wish to return to their homes in what is now Israel, but he argued they must have a choice."

"Amjad Atallah then discussed how the current crisis arose. The first Intifada ended not because the Declaration of Principles (DOP) was signed, but because of the promise that within five years, final status issues would be settled, there would be Palestinian statehood, and the situation would gradually improve along the way. Yet the "opposite" has occurred. For example, Palestinians were led to believe that settlement building would cease or at least lessen, but the settlement population doubled since Oslo. "

"The "Israeli presence and the occupation" intensified. Settlements and settlement roads "bisected" the West Bank into dozens of sections. There is "less freedom of movement" now than before the signing of the Declaration of Principles. "

"Add to this Israel's decision to "wean" itself from Palestinian labor, and "you have an economy that [was] collapsing" even before the Intifada. The current closures are "the nails in the coffin of the economy."

"In addition, Israel has ignored interim agreements-the release of Palestinian prisoners and the third stage of redeployment have not occurred. By two and a half years ago, Israel should have withdrawn from 90 percent of the West Bank. Instead, the PA controls just 18 percent of it."

"Some have asked Atallah: But why now? Atallah's answer is this: The deal at Camp David was put forward as a "take it or leave it" offer. As a result, the Palestinians on the street believed that this deal was the final offer-it was the best they would get. They believed the peace process was over. Then came Ariel Sharon's visit to the Haram al-Sharif with "over 1,000 [members of the] Israeli occupation forces" and Israel's use of live ammunition against Palestinian protesters the next day. The Intifada erupted in response. "

"Nisreen Haj-Ahmad outlined a proposal to restart negotiations, arguing that the United States needs to recognize "the reasons behind the Intifada." It will not end "without [the offer of] an alternative." She outlined four components of a Jordanian-Egyptian proposal that has been passed on to the U.S., the EU, and indirectly, to Israel: "

"Sharm el-Sheikh II should be implemented. This would include the cessation of the Intifada in return for Israel withdrawing its tanks and ending the closure imposed on the Occupied Territories. "


"Israel and the Palestinians should implement agreements signed thus far. This would help to address the causes of the Intifada and could help "restore the belief" of Palestinians "in the process." Israel's obligations would include the implementation of the third further redeployment, a commitment to the land-for-peace equation, and a "stop to settlement activities." For the PA, this would mean that "security cooperation would resume" and they would continue the collection of weapons. "


"The Israelis and Palestinians should begin "parallel talks." The first track would involve discussion on previous interim talks to clarify what the two parties had agreed to, and the second track would focus on permanent status talks that would be "comprehensive and final."


"Third-party "monitoring of implementation" of "the commitments of both sides" should commence."

"One audience member asked if nonviolent confrontation has been seriously considered. Atallah said that "there's been an attempt to move to nonviolent popular demonstrations." Although they have not received much coverage, these actions are "well organized and well attended," "even when stone-throwing is not allowed."

"Atallah referred to the March demonstration in Birzeit to reopen the blockaded roads. Attendees were diverse, including Atallah; Hanan Ashrawi, Palestinian Legislative Council member; Mustafa Barghouthi, director of the Health, Development, Information, and Policy Institute; and Tanzim leader Marwan Barghouti. Potential stone-throwers were literally held back-they were picked up, put in ambulances, and driven away. This was successful until Israeli soldiers lobbed tear gas canisters, the group scattered, and some children found an opportunity to throw stones. The army then opened fire with live bullets."



"Source: The above section "The view of the Palestinian Authority's Negotiation Support Unit" in this article is an edited version of "Limitations of the Camp David Proposal, Roots of the Intifada, and Possibilities for Change," For The Record, Number 69, 7 March 2001, CPAP."

further information on the PLO view on this matter: (very interesting)
http://www.nad-plo.org/eye/news38.html

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
OK, but in Denmark and France yes.
(actually strange because Austrian fascists are the most moderate of the three)

Denmark and France are two different states that are awakening to the dangers of Islamic Fundamentalism. Further I think that you believe that anyone opposed to Islamic Fundamentalism is a fascist. Actually that’s Muslim propaganda, another trick of theirs is to label people as racists.

Well it might work on some but not on me. You can call me a fascist or a racist, as much as you like I couldn’t care less. Where is it etched in stone that evil has a right to pervade the west?

Nowhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only place where true fascism is alive today is in Islam and wherever it’s spawn has been planted.

[takeo]

I think most of your zionist friends won't agree on this one, nor does Israel (even if you are right that Le Pen has much in common with Sharon). They consider rightfully that le pen is a fascist not only opposed to "islam" or fundamentalism (almost everyone in France is opposed to fundamentalism) but to all foreigners. Le Pen is also a defender of the Vichy-regime, hated by most French, and called the genocide a detail in WWII. Nice friends you have in France...
Some israel defenders even try to attack france by referring to Le Pen... (forgetting that only a minority votes for him).

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by takeo
I think most of your zionist friends won't agree on this one, nor does Israel (even if you are right that Le Pen has much in common with Sharon). They consider rightfully that le pen is a fascist not only opposed to "islam" or fundamentalism (almost everyone in France is opposed to fundamentalism) but to all foreigners. Le Pen is also a defender of the Vichy-regime, hated by most French, and called the genocide a detail in WWII. Nice friends you have in France...
Some israel defenders even try to attack france by referring to Le Pen... (forgetting that only a minority votes for him).

Likewise, you see Arab efforts to annihilate the Jews in Israel as something less than a "detail" -- you think their cause is just. Yet look around pro-Palestinian Web sites, and you will find they are more than willing to disseminate Nazi and White Power material about how the Holocaust never happened, how Jews use the blood of non-Jews to make holiday pastries, and how Jews control the press, the banks, the US government, etc.

Really, the Arab terrorists are quite happy to join hands with fascists as long as the fascists accommodate them as they did during WWII -- by proclaiming Arabs non-non-Aryans (i.e., racially inferior but exempt from persecution because they are willing to serve the Aryan cause).

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
I think most of your zionist friends won't agree on this one, nor does Israel (even if you are right that Le Pen has much in common with Sharon). They consider rightfully that le pen is a fascist not only opposed to "islam" or fundamentalism (almost everyone in France is opposed to fundamentalism) but to all foreigners. Le Pen is also a defender of the Vichy-regime, hated by most French, and called the genocide a detail in WWII. Nice friends you have in France...
Some israel defenders even try to attack france by referring to Le Pen... (forgetting that only a minority votes for him).

When you responded to my earlier posts you were clearly aware that I do not support Le Pen.

The concept of chasing the Islamic Fundamentalists back to where they came from is appealing to me. Get rid of as many as you can.

It’s simply mathematics to me for example:

1 Muslim Fundamentalist= 1 anti Semite
2 Muslim Fundamentalists= 2 anti Semites

Similar to economics takeo.

[takeo]

maybe you visited different pro-palestinian websites, but in the ones i saw, i didn't see this kind of retoric but instead recognition of the existance of israel... (of course you can find some, but it is not the general view of palestinians)
the efforts to annihilate israel are no detail but conducted by a minority-groups of palestinians and Arabs nowadays and certainly not by the PA.
I wouldn't call the israeli occupation and the efforts for the annihilation of palestine a detail either ..
anyway you are changing subject... what do you think of Lomplighter's view on le pen???

[takeo]

"It’s simply mathematics to me for example:

1 Muslim Fundamentalist= 1 anti Semite
2 Muslim Fundamentalists= 2 anti Semites

Similar to economics takeo."

Hitler was also very good at mathematics...

I think someone who hasn't committed a crime can't be banned for his political views, even if i don't like them. At least in a democracy.

[Mediocrates]

What does that mean?

you speak ar cross purposes sometimes

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
"It’s simply mathematics to me for example:

1 Muslim Fundamentalist= 1 anti Semite
2 Muslim Fundamentalists= 2 anti Semites

Similar to economics takeo."

Hitler was also very good at mathematics...

I think someone who hasn't committed a crime can't be banned for his political views, even if i don't like them. At least in a democracy.

For the tenth time I do not support Le Pen why do you have a fixation that I support the man?

I doubt if Hitler could count to ten either.

Anyways what does Hitler have to do with this?

Is there any political system in the world that isn’t fascist to you? Save the 25 or so Islam countries.


Further political views? Give me a break!

You endorse killing of Jews in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Is that a political view?

Burning synagogues shooting at school busses is that political views? I don’t think Islamic Fundamentalism is a political view at least I’m unable to see it as such.

Crime? As far as I’m concerned Islamic Fundamentalists and their supporters are criminals.

[takeo]

Hitler also tought that ... million Jews= ... million to be destroyed

OK, you do not support Le Pen, but everyone on this board will notice that you have a hell of sympathy for the man... (by the way on one of the other treads you said you didn't support Austrian fascists, as i said that you supported ultra-right in Austria, France and Denmark, so that means you DO support French ultra-right...)

"You endorse killing of Jews in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Is that a political view?
Burning synagogues shooting at school busses is that political views? I don’t think Islamic Fundamentalism is a political view at least I’m unable to see it as such.
Crime? As far as I’m concerned Islamic Fundamentalists and their supporters are criminals."

Just read the post of mediocrates about what a western democracy is about... (in another tread) and you'll see all political tendencies need to be represented, even if you dislike them very much.
Yes it islamic fundamentalism is a political view, but certainly not MINE. Burning synagogues and shooting at school busses is NOT a political view but a crime, asking for such actions is a crime as well (at least in France, i'm not so sure about the US, as you allow even extreme nazi-parties parties that call for another genocide)
However people expressing racist or fundamentalist political views (without saying explicitly "kill the Jews" or "kill the Arabs") can not be charged in a democracy, nor can people calling for the etnic cleansing of all Palestinians.

[takeo]

ps: as i said before, i only approove the killing of the military occupation force, ARMED settlers and politicians involved in the war (on the condition that a peacefull negociation is not possible), so don't twist my words i never will accept or defend the murder of innocent people.

[L@mplighterM]

OK, you do not support Le Pen, but everyone on this board will notice that you have a hell of sympathy for the man... (by the way on one of the other treads you said you didn't support Austrian fascists, as i said that you supported ultra-right in Austria, France and Denmark, so that means you DO support French ultra-right...)

Sympathy for what man Le Pen? I couldn't care less if he dropped dead.
I would support any party that sends the Fundamentalist running.

Like I told you before Pen is too dirty for even me.

All this talk about Ultra-Right is just so much garbage it makes common sense that Europe shouldn't be used as a haven for Fundamentalism. Enough is enough close the gates and deport those that can be deported send them back to where they came from.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
ps: as i said before, i only approove the killing of the military occupation force, ARMED settlers and politicians involved in the war (on the condition that a peacefull negociation is not possible), so don't twist my words i never will accept or defend the murder of innocent people.

Is that so?

[Mediocrates]

There is one UN member country that is ineligible to join the Security Council. Want to guess which one?

Israel

A country has to be part of a bloc and the arab states routinely block Israel's membership in the Asian bloc. There have been some motions to get Israel into the Western bloc. Would you like to guess who is blocking that motion?

The EU


The EU is scum, plain and simple.

[takeo]

maybe the problem is not EU or Asia, but Israel...
why do you think Israel is blocked, because it always carefully applied the un-resolutions, geneva-conventions ???

Yes lomplighter that Is so, and i told you before. Do you really want to indiscriminately throw people out of Europe who might be fundamentalist or just appear to be fundamentalist, evne if they never did anything against the law? what would you say if there would be a law banning everyone in support for Sharon from France? Would it be antisemite? Yes. Is your position racist? Yes again...

After a while i come to the conclusion that israel-defenders are very good at blaming someone else for everything that happened... the Arabs, the fundamentalists, the EU, the UN, Bush, the israeli left etc.
That might work in Israel and zionist circles in the US but for most people it sounds really unconvincing...

[Mediocrates]

"so don't twist my words i never will accept or defend the murder of innocent people."

So a farmer with a rifle slung over his back as he farms is a legitimate target, yes?

"why do you think Israel is blocked"

Gee let me see, hmmmm, uhh, wait wait, it'll come to me. Oh yeah now I have it....

Because of people like you who hate Jews. Face it, you would rather see the end of all Jews than one precious self ascribed principal violated. One wonders why you even bother to call yourself a Jew at all? Because of blood? There isn't anything else you have in common with us. You are a pariah and like so many pariahs you would rather be hated than ignored.

Let me suggest something to you sir. A cause is like a case in court. It's not about fencing, it's about credibility and you have none.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
maybe the problem is not EU or Asia, but Israel...
why do you think Israel is blocked, because it always carefully applied the un-resolutions, geneva-conventions ???

Yes lomplighter that Is so, and i told you before. Do you really want to indiscriminately throw people out of Europe who might be fundamentalist or just appear to be fundamentalist, evne if they never did anything against the law? what would you say if there would be a law banning everyone in support for Sharon from France? Would it be antisemite? Yes. Is your position racist? Yes again...

After a while i come to the conclusion that israel-defenders are very good at blaming someone else for everything that happened... the Arabs, the fundamentalists, the EU, the UN, Bush, the israeli left etc.
That might work in Israel and zionist circles in the US but for most people it sounds really unconvincing...


That's right I say deport anyone that's not there lawfully. The others that support Fundamentalism should also be removed. Based on what I've read, heard or seen on TV the EU needs a good housecleaning.

Call it whatever you want.

[Belgium@EU]

Yeah, it's always the UN, the EU, the Arabs who are wrong ... Israel??
we gave the PA the chance to get their own country? Why didn't they accept it? We are not to blame. Ohh sure, we are responsible for some barbaric acts, we might have killed some Palestinian civilians, but we didn't mean to. We were aiming at the terrorist infrastructure.

Big deal, it's easy to say that you were not aiming at civilians, though you still constantly kill them. Israel will face massive economic santions, from the EU, the Arabs, (not the UN). Millions of protestors here in Europe ask our governments to do something. Is it because we like the Palestinians that much? Maybe, but we have more in common with the Israeli's, so normally, we should support them.

[gregg]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Yeah, it's always the UN, the EU, the Arabs who are wrong ... Israel??
we gave the PA the chance to get their own country? Why didn't they accept it? We are not to blame. Ohh sure, we are responsible for some barbaric acts, we might have killed some Palestinian civilians, but we didn't mean to. We were aiming at the terrorist infrastructure.

Big deal, it's easy to say that you were not aiming at civilians, though you still constantly kill them. Israel will face massive economic santions, from the EU, the Arabs, (not the UN). Millions of protestors here in Europe ask our governments to do something. Is it because we like the Palestinians that much? Maybe, but we have more in common with the Israeli's, so normally, we should support them.

And on the other hand Arafat is targeting civilians on purpose you think he should not be punished? Europe fought in kosovo etc. Civilians where killed, remember the story with the convoy bombed, Its traggic but then so is war, and Israel like the US didnt ask to be in this war, Arafat did.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Yeah, it's always the UN, the EU, the Arabs who are wrong ... Israel??
we gave the PA the chance to get their own country? Why didn't they accept it? We are not to blame. Ohh sure, we are responsible for some barbaric acts, we might have killed some Palestinian civilians, but we didn't mean to. We were aiming at the terrorist infrastructure.

Big deal, it's easy to say that you were not aiming at civilians, though you still constantly kill them. Israel will face massive economic santions, from the EU, the Arabs, (not the UN). Millions of protestors here in Europe ask our governments to do something. Is it because we like the Palestinians that much? Maybe, but we have more in common with the Israeli's, so normally, we should support them.

Screw the EU and I might add that the EU should be dismantled.

[Belgium@EU]

The difference between Le Pen and Sharon is that Le Pen will never be a president, or will never have any power whatso-ever. France is a democracy, which means that racism can not be tolerated. Yes, you read this well. In democracy, racism has no place! Le Pen hates the Jews as much as he hates the Muslims, he's in favour of an all European race, and he dislikes the idea of a multi-cultural society (like is now in France).

Sharon is not a fascist, at least he doesn't give interviews where he clearly admits to be anti-muslim. But that doesn't make a good person out of him, in contrary.

Israel was the first to withdraw its embassador from Austria, and they'll do the same in France if le pen would become president (which will never happen!). On the other hand, they condemn the Europeans of being too leftist. Well, i'm not a lefty, I'm a liberal. Still, I share the same opinion as my fellow from France, Takeo, and I don't agree with the US in this matter. Is there any margin in the US for peace-talks? Yes I believe so, but the two-party system will not allow this, because both parties are "infected" (forgive my rude expression) by the American-Israeli lobby.

@Lamplighter
Ohh and why should we dismant the EU? Because we are criticizing you? How democratic is this. An organisation which criticizes should be dismantled. How about dismantling the UN? Or maybe Amnesty International? Let me get this straight, the EU is functioning well, and all memberstates have a common opinion on this subject. Is it the E(U)vil? The EU was able to get all voices in one straight line, and this line has a clear message. If you don't like it, sorry, but you have to live with it.
Screw the EU? How low of you to say this. What if i would say: screw Israel? I'll be accused of anti-semitism. If you can't find decent arguments, lampboy, shut up. Don't make them into ad-hominem arguments, because they don't fit into your narrow-minded world of Israel+US!!! Guess what: There are 5.5 billion other people living on this planet, 1 billion of them Muslims ...

[gregg]

[i]
That might work in Israel and zionist circles in the US but for most people it sounds really unconvincing... [/B]

Which is why the senate just passed a 94-2 resolution supporting Israel and congress passed a similar one stating Arafat supports terrorism

[L@mplighterM]

Posted by Belqium:

@Lamplighter
Ohh and why should we dismant the EU? Because we are criticizing you? How democratic is this. An organisation which criticizes should be dismantled. How about dismantling the UN? Or maybe Amnesty International? Let me get this straight, the EU is functioning well, and all memberstates have a common opinion on this subject. Is it the E(U)vil? The EU was able to get all voices in one straight line, and this line has a clear message. If you don't like it, sorry, but you have to live with it.
Screw the EU? How low of you to say this. What if i would say: screw Israel? I'll be accused of anti-semitism. If you can't find decent arguments, lampboy, shut up. Don't make them into ad-hominem arguments, because they don't fit into your narrow-minded world of Israel+US!!! Guess what: There are 5.5 billion other people living on this planet, 1 billion of them Muslims ...


Screw the EU and I might add that the EU should be dismantled.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Yes I believe so, but the two-party system will not allow this, because both parties are "infected" (forgive my rude expression) by the American-Israeli lobby.
Let's take a look at "infections" for a minute, Monsieur race Flamande:

Europe is now and has always been a festering cesspool of hatred and racism, slaughtering one another by the millions since the beginning of time. In the last century alone, Europe has managed to exterminate close to 17 million (8,120,208 Military, 8,742,296 Civilian) in WWI. But in WWII, the Europeans and their fascist allies caused the slaughter of somewhere around 60 million (!!!) people. 25 million of these are military, 35 million civilian.

So the reason I am bringing this up is that when Europeans such as yourself, especially being Flemish (an extremely anti-Semitic and Nazi-leaning society), I am very skeptical when you talk about the US being "infected" by the Israeli lobby.

Here's another form of severe infection, looking at your own Flemish society, of which 20%, i.e., 1 out of every 5 people are essentially racists. (of course this doesn't even include the francophone extreme right, which is also a Belgique racist powerhouse):


"The largest neo-fascist party in Belgium is the Vlaams Blok (VB) of Flanders, established in 1977. Since its electoral success in 1995, the VB, currently headed by Frank Vanhecke, has become one of the strongest extreme right parties in Europe (see previous reports). Its political aspiration is for a Flemish state which, after the dissolution of Belgium, would unify Belgian Flanders, French Flanders and the Netherlands. Flemish nationalism of the 1930s, Flemish collaboration with Nazi Germany, and glorification of the Vlaanderen Division of the Waffen SS, are legacies embraced by the party. One of the most fanatical defenders of these values is VB vice-president Roland Raes.

Although in 1995 VB voted for the law prohibiting denial or minimization of the Holocaust, members of the VB are known as Holocaust deniers. The party's theory of nationalism is based on the German volkisch conception. The term race flamande (Flemish race) is frequently used by VB ideologists.

Currently, although it still cultivates its links with neo-Nazi movements in France and worldwide, the VB has been trying to present itself as a respectable party. It has the electoral support of almost 15 percent of the population in the Flemish region, and in several big cities such as Antwerp it can count on the support of more than 20 percent of the population."

So, anyway, I find it incredible that anyone claiming to be in favor of human-rights and against racism, would find it convenient to attack Israel, which has been the victim of EU racism and Arab Jihad-genocide since its inception.

These so-called "liberal" Euorpeans seem to mysteriously vanish into thin air when Israelis are massacred by the hundreds. But like a chronic infection, they reappear any time Israel takes defensive action against the Arab murderers.

So much for your "infection" comparison, Mr. EU.

[Belgium@EU]

Good facts on Belgium! CRTL V, CTRL C (copy-paste??)

First of all, I want to say, I hate VB. VB represents all the evil of today's society here. If VB would ever take power in Belgium, I move somewhere else.

I'm saddened to hear the same arguments of WWII again. We all know what happened, and yes, there were Flemish supporting Nazi's. But our society is not a cesspool of anti-semitism, far from it. In fact, if you would read more on Vlaams Blok, you would also find out that Vlaams Blok has many Jewish voters. Why? Because VB will ensure that they are protected against the Maroccan and Turkish community in cities like Antwerp. Antwerp became big thanks to the Jews and their diament-business.

Want to know more about WWII and Belgian envolvement? I'll try to find some nice info. But the info you gave me probably comes from BBC.co.uk. Why? Because extreme right is in the news now, thanks to people like Le Pen.

Ohh, and for the sake of argument: we don't close our eyes towards Israeli victims of Muslim terror. I think our government made itself clear: terrorism can not be tolerated and must be rooted out. This is however, not the same as bringing down a whole country, its infrastructure and its culture.


20 % of our people are racists. You got that right, news(?)man (did you give this title to yourself or did you earn it). Now, get me the figures of the United States, Israel, South Africa, India ... long list huh. I've been a couple of times in the US and South Africa, people were a lot more racist than here, I can guarantee you that. But as long as you believe in your own facts, it's ok for me.

[L@mplighterM]

Posted by Belgium:

This is however, not the same as bringing down a whole country, its infrastructure and its culture.

*LOL* You're kidding aren't you?

[Belgium@EU]

LOL??? No, i'm not! I'm quite serious? You have a webcam, lampboy? i can show you my serious face :mad:

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
LOL??? No, i'm not! I'm quite serious? You have a webcam, lampboy? i can show you my serious face :mad:

You Wish !!!

I have only pity for anyone that’s so confused. I have enough frogs in the neighborhood so I don’t have to look at your face.

[takeo]

Don't be too much angry with lomplighter, i guess he had some traumatic experience in his youth... :(



"First of all, I want to say, I hate VB. VB represents all the evil of today's society here. If VB would ever take power in Belgium, I move somewhere else. "

If Le pen would become president here, we will watch at every decision he would make and be ready for massive protests.




"20 % of our people are racists. You got that right, news(?)man (did you give this title to yourself or did you earn it). Now, get me the figures of the United States, Israel, South Africa, India ... long list huh. I've been a couple of times in the US and South Africa, people were a lot more racist than here, I can guarantee you that. But as long as you believe in your own facts, it's ok for me. "

absolutely right your comment about the states, the US is clearly more racist than than Europe, most of all against negro's (even if nowadays they will not state it publicly but privately they will!), nowhere in Europe there is such an etnic segregation as in the states!


"Europe is now and has always been a festering cesspool of hatred and racism, slaughtering one another by the millions since the beginning of time. In the last century alone, Europe has managed to exterminate close to 17 million (8,120,208 Military, 8,742,296 Civilian) in WWI. But in WWII, the Europeans and their fascist allies caused the slaughter of somewhere around 60 million (!!!) people. 25 million of these are military, 35 million civilian. "

LOL, the Europeans... i can see you love generalisations and to blame entire peoples. Hitler caused many millions of Soviet-deaths, even more than Jewish people (and in fact many Jews were Russian Jews), so ALL Europeans are responsible for it, even the millions fighting with their lifes against Hitler? This is more than an accusation, this is an insult and i demand an apology!

"an extremely anti-Semitic and Nazi-leaning society"

It is clear you know as much about belgium than about France...
Jews in Antwerp are everywhere, some very religious, and never have problems. Even during WWII many Belgians and flemish in particular fought with their lifes against the German invador. I read somewhere how many belgians died during wWII in the resistance... it was impressive for such a little country.

"Here's another form of severe infection, looking at your own Flemish society, of which 20%, i.e., 1 out of every 5 people are essentially racists. (of course this doesn't even include the francophone extreme right, which is also a Belgique racist powerhouse): "

20% is too much, but is still better than a majority voting for racists as in israel...




"So, anyway, I find it incredible that anyone claiming to be in favor of human-rights and against racism, would find it convenient to attack Israel, which has been the victim of EU racism and Arab Jihad-genocide since its inception. "

israel has not been victim of genocide, many more palestinians died than israeli died so if the word genocide should be used it will be used AGAINST israel. Israel can be attacked as long as it occupies territories, that's called self-defense of the palestinian people. Israeli presence in the occupied territories during 35 years can not be called self-defense... we condamn attacks against civilians on both sides however.

"These so-called "liberal" Euorpeans seem to mysteriously vanish into thin air when Israelis are massacred by the hundreds. But like a chronic infection, they reappear any time Israel takes defensive action against the Arab murderers. "

Actually Europeans always condamned terrorist actions against civilians, AS they also condamned the cause of all the violence: israeli occupation and the israeli denial of un-resolutions and geneva-conventions. this equilibrated approach however is angering people who see israel as a state that has more rights than other states and who consider israeli victims of more value than palestinian victims...



"Which is why the senate just passed a 94-2 resolution supporting Israel and congress passed a similar one stating Arafat supports terrorism "

Because the US-congress is strongly affected by money and the lobbying influence of the pro-zionist lobby. Yet it would surprise me they passed a resolution calling for declaring Arafat a terrorist, can you provide me a link to that? Anyway according to polls in time most Americans DON'T support israel in its current actions. According to your president arafat is NOT a terrorist (and he is man calling someone for easily terrorist or "evil"...)


" Belgium@EU The difference between Le Pen and Sharon is that Le Pen will never be a president, or will never have any power whatso-ever. France is a democracy, which means that racism can not be tolerated. Yes, you read this well. In democracy, racism has no place! Le Pen hates the Jews as much as he hates the Muslims, he's in favour of an all European race, and he dislikes the idea of a multi-cultural society (like is now in France). "

but actually all this are values shared by many people on this forum (only leave the anti-semitic factor and they would agree completely...)

.

"Screw the EU? How low of you to say this. What if i would say: screw Israel? I'll be accused of anti-semitism. If you can't find decent arguments, lampboy, shut up. Don't make them into ad-hominem arguments, because they don't fit into your narrow-minded world of Israel+US!!! Guess what: There are 5.5 billion other people living on this planet, 1 billion of them Muslims ... "

koed gezegd




"Screw the EU and I might add that the EU should be dismantled."

Says who???


"And on the other hand Arafat is targeting civilians on purpose you think he should not be punished? Europe fought in kosovo etc. Civilians where killed, remember the story with the convoy bombed, Its traggic but then so is war, and Israel like the US didnt ask to be in this war, Arafat did. "


Arafat never targetted civilians on purpose, again i would like to see some proofs of that or is the word of Sharon or the Jerusalem Post enough for you?
Israel asked to be in this war when it started the occupation and the settlement-policy in 1967. The Palestinians never asked to be occupied by israel.
And sometimes israel DID harm civilians on purpose, we could see on television israeli soldiers before retreating destroying all cars... we could see in jenin what happened (we will never know exactly what happened as israel, for some purpose, hides it from outside observers... ), we all know that the closures were collective punishments...






"That's right I say deport anyone that's not there lawfully. The others that support Fundamentalism should also be removed. Based on what I've read, heard or seen on TV the EU needs a good housecleaning.
Call it whatever you want. "

OK, that's clear at least... it would be the end of democratic rights and could as well be applied to communists, later Jews who are too religious, New Age and other "folksfremde" groups.


"So a farmer with a rifle slung over his back as he farms is a legitimate target, yes? "

YES, he is an armed occupier, who would be shot in any similar conflict in any part of the world.



"Because of people like you who hate Jews. Face it, you would rather see the end of all Jews than one precious self ascribed principal violated. One wonders why you even bother to call yourself a Jew at all? Because of blood? There isn't anything else you have in common with us. You are a pariah and like so many pariahs you would rather be hated than ignored. "

Yes, sir, a pariah as the israeli left are called treaters to the country, as the German people during WWII were treated as pariahs as well. In that case, I like to be a pariah rather than to follow the majority who has been sedused by fascism (i think sharon is a fascist, not in words but in deeds, which is actually worse than le pen or Vlaams Blok)
I think sharon and you are doing an incredible injustice to the Jewish people by making the name of this great people dirty by associating it with crimes and oppression. in the future people thinking "Jew" will not longer see the great inventors or biggest victims of European fascism but they will see tanks and bulldozers oppressing an entire people. This is why i, as a Jew, have the obligation to put so much energy in combatting sharon and co. I also have great admiration for the people of Gush Shalom who stayed in Ramallah during the israeli attack, they are incredibly brave not only facing tanks and bulldozers and being a human shield to protect the elected leader of the palestinian people, but as well face hard social repercussions in Israel by a more and more fascist society. Rightwing extremists even have treathened their life already.
israel only has a right to exist in peace if its stops to ignore the rights of another people.

[takeo]

sorry i mean the German people resisting the nazi's during WWII, of course. (as for example Erich Honnecker who spend 3 years in a concentration-camp, where he helped many Jewish people to escape as well during his escape).

[Belgium@EU]

Takeo, you're an intelligent man. I'm happy to see that there are still Jews who aren't extreme. In fact, I've got Jewish friends myself, who share a very similar point of view as you;



"Because of people like you who hate Jews. Face it, you would rather see the end of all Jews than one precious self ascribed principal violated. One wonders why you even bother to call yourself a Jew at all? Because of blood? There isn't anything else you have in common with us. You are a pariah and like so many pariahs you would rather be hated than ignored. "

That's how we call lefties from now on? Traitors? And rightwingers are probably patriots, heroes of the people. I can't help it that so many massmurderers were also rightwingers, but history learns us that being a massmurderer has nothing to with rightism or leftism; it's about racism!

Let me give you an exemple:

- Hitler said "gott mit uns". Everybody here will agree when I say Hitler was a nazist, a racist ...
- When Bush says "may god bless the US", everyone goes ahead with it. Com'on, isn't this a form of extremism? God who would bless a country, I'm an atheist, but if there would be a god, he wouldn't support America, and also not the Arab terrorist. I thought religion and politics were something totally different. Still both quotes mean the same, only the second one is the translation in English.

[thrud]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

I have enough frogs in the neighborhood...
L@mplighter do you live in France. Maybe you could go over and have a talk with good old taeko.

[L@mplighterM]

Quote from thrud in bold:


L@mplighter do you live in France. Maybe you could go over and have a talk with good old taeko.

By the time I crossed the street hee'd be in Cuba, South America or somewhere else.

[takeo]

No, i'm here now for some time to come, like it or not, so come over if you like... but there are a lot of Arabs here, will you survive??????

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
No, i'm here now for some time to come, like it or not, so come over if you like... but there are a lot of Arabs here, will you survive??????

I'm here now!

[takeo]

ok, where in Paris are you??? ;)

[L@mplighterM]

I thought so!

[thrud]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
I can't help it that so many massmurderers were also rightwingers, but history learns us that being a massmurderer has nothing to with rightism or leftism; it's about racism!

Let me give you an exemple:

- Hitler said "gott mit uns". Everybody here will agree when I say Hitler was a nazist, a racist ...
- When Bush says "may god bless the US", everyone goes ahead with it. Com'on, isn't this a form of extremism? God who would bless a country, I'm an atheist, but if there would be a god, he wouldn't support America, and also not the Arab terrorist. I thought religion and politics were something totally different. Still both quotes mean the same, only the second one is the translation in English.
I realy had a ard time when I read the above quote. It is a bit odd. Are all massmurderers racist? The Oklahoma City bombing was not about race -- it was anti government. That was America's biggest mass murder event up to 9/11. Was 9/11 about race? It was anti-American, but I do not think it was racially motivated as America can not be viewed as a racial group.

The next bit about religion and politics is add as well. Hitler did not claim any type of tie to G-d unless he was speaking to the masses. Bush is a Christian, but stating that he hopes G-d will bless the US is not in any way strange. I personally do not feel religion is the main motive behind people like bin Laden or Arafat. Power is what those boys are after and the deaths of many innoent people.

Power-hungry fools and politics go hand-in-hand all the time. t would be naive to think the separation of church and politics is realistic. Religion is a big part of politics, but religion should not be a part of government.

As an aithiest, you are making a statement on religion. I think you believe in G-d and your opposition to him only validates this more. Go on with your childish opinions about religion and politics. It is impossible to separate them and worthless to try. it is evil that you should try to separate from politics. The desire to live in peace is not evil. I hope the Palestinians and the Israelis are going to find it, but I know that the power hungry fools backing the Palestinians do not want peace, only death.

[takeo]

"it is evil that you should try to separate from politics. The desire to live in peace is not evil. I hope the Palestinians and the Israelis are going to find it, but I know that the power hungry fools backing the Palestinians do not want peace, only death."

israeli policy is evil to most of the world, because its occupation and refusal to comply to the un-resolutions is acting against the desire to live in peace. All what the majority of the palestinians and most of their backers want is peace and justice, but occupation and etnic cleansing can never mean peace nor justice.
The most people backing israel or the US in most parts of the world do so because they consider those to be the military and economically strongest, they think a military solution and oppression of the palestinians is possible, so in fact they are power-hungry and, in a way, evil.
However i think evil can only be used for religious purposes, politics can be good or evil depending of your own interests. Religion and politics should be separated, this happens in Europe, but not in the US, Israel or the muslim countries. In this Europe is more advanced than the us and the us and israel are closer to the muslim countries.
Religion is something personal, it is about etical conviction and can not be forced upon people by politics, we have enough bad experience with this in Europe during many centuries to learn this lesson.

[takeo]

where in paris are you, i am excited to meet you :cool:

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
where in paris are you, i am excited to meet you :cool:

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Mediocrates]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1970000/1970028.stm

Generally postive yet they found space to include this in the article:

'Provocation'

But some Muslim groups said they found the timing of the event "offensive".

Massoud Shadjareh, the chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said: "We feel that in the light of the recent massacres in Jenin it's extremely insensitive to organise a rally and blatantly say they support the state of Israel.

"It's extremely offensive, not just to one community but to all of us who believe in certain absolute values."

Kumar Murshid, chairman of the London Muslim Coalition, said the Israeli rally could not have come at a more insensitive time.

He said: "People feel this is provocation.

"If the purpose of this rally is to support the Israeli government and its position then it's clearly not a step in the direction of peace but quite the contrary. People feel very strongly about that."

[takeo]

How would you feel about a Palestinian meeting in the centre of Tel Aviv in support for the suicidee bombers??? would it be in the best interest of peace?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
How would you feel about a Palestinian meeting in the centre of Tel Aviv in support for the suicidee bombers??? would it be in the best interest of peace?

Just to be clear, a rally of (mostly) Jews in London supporting Israel is equivalent to a rally of Palestinians in Tel Aviv supporting suicide bombers?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
How would you feel about a Palestinian meeting in the centre of Tel Aviv in support for the suicidee bombers??? would it be in the best interest of peace?
Actually, Israel allows its Arab enemies which live inside Israel to carry out widespread demonstrations on "Land Day." During these demonstrations the Arabs express their support for suicide bombers and other Arab terrorism against Israel.

Israel provides security to protect those Arab pro-terrorism demonstrators from the understandable resentment of real Israelis, because Israel is a liberal democracy which protects free speech (even stupidly in this case).

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
How would you feel about a Palestinian meeting in the centre of Tel Aviv in support for the suicidee bombers??? would it be in the best interest of peace?

What peace???

Do you honestly believe that peace can be had with Fundmetalist?

Go polish Arafats halo.

[takeo]

i doubt if peace can be concluded with Sharon... not with the fundamentalists either by the way, with Arafat however yes.

as far as i know demonstrations on land day are not in favor of suicide-bombers but of the palestinian cause in general. so you think those people don't have the right to express their opinion?
i agree it's a provocative to support for suicide-bombers, as well it's provocative to support for a war-criminal.

[L@mplighterM]

You go on worshiping your Arafag all you want. I'm not paying attention to your Arab BS.

[Mediocrates]

"I have lived long enough to see good repeatedly win over evil, although at a much higher cost than need have been paid. This time we have already paid the price of victory. It remains for us to win it."


-Robert Strausz-Hupé, Founder of FPRI, Dead at 98

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
You go on worshiping your Arafag all you want. I'm not paying attention to your Arab BS.

This is not just Arab BS, my friend. Arafat is not a fundemantalist. Is that so difficult to understand? Just as Rabin, Perez and even Barak (also a general) were no fundemantalists. Sharon on the other hand, is also a terrorist (and should be treated like one). He hasn't done anything good to your country, and the latest military actions didn't help, because terrorism still goes on! When are the next elections due to be? I hope people get wiser by that time, and stop giving their vote to warcriminals.

And you Lomplighter, you are the one who does not want to accept this.

http://www.iviews.com/scripts/humour/default.cfm?rec_cartoon=5381&r_cartoon=2

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU


http://www.iviews.com/scripts/humour/default.cfm?rec_cartoon=5381&r_cartoon=2

I have to thank you for sharing this site with us. I don't usually go hunting for the most offensive anti-Semitic cartoons I can find, so imagine my delight at seeing several dozen of them.

[Belgium@EU]

Ohh com'on, these are just cartoons. What's so anti-semitic about that. Don't you guys have humor anymore? :rolleyes:
And I only showed one, not all of them, so don't whine about that.

Giving critizism on Sharon is called anti-semitism today?

[cerulean]

Hey, I'm not complaining. It was very enlightening to see what a typical Belgian sees as political entertainment.

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by cerulean
Hey, I'm not complaining. It was very enlightening to see what a typical Belgian sees as political entertainment.

Yeah that's true. We rather laugh with cartoons than with people dying in our streets. What's wrong with some political entertainment btw?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU

What's wrong with some political entertainment btw?

Political entertainment can be great (although this particular type is not to my taste). But there's always the risk it will reveal the creators' and fans' true state of mind, as it does in this case. But since I support freedom of speech, I'm not interested in censoring it.

[Belgium@EU]

OK, thanks.

[cerulean]

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020867015813

It's interesting to note how the unsuccessful suicide bomber (May 8) was treated. His bomb partially and inadvertently detonated on his way to commit multiple acts of murder and mayhem. He was seriously injured.

The Israeli sappers worked carefully to ensure the person was non-explosive. Once this had been determined, he was taken to a hospital and into surgery. He remains in the hospital in serious condition. The Israeli taxpayer is paying for his care.

Despite the viciousness of this young man's intended acts, the response of the Israeli authorities was as humane as is possible. Contrast this occurrence to what happens to peaceful Israelis who make an accidental wrong turn into an Arab-controlled area.

[Mediocrates]

A mitzvah is a commandment, not a suggestion.

[takeo]

"although this particular type is not to my taste"

it was funny and not anti-semitic but anti-sharon.
but i saw that the blatantly racist and stupid anti-French commercial was more to your taste...

[Belgium@EU]

which commercial takeo? can I see it,

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
"although this particular type is not to my taste"

it was funny and not anti-semitic but anti-sharon.
but i saw that the blatantly racist and stupid anti-French commercial was more to your taste...

For Belgium@EU, here is the thread.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=588

Takeo, I haven't commented on the SNL commercial so it's a little hard for you to know my feelings about it, isn't it?

[Mediocrates]

EU-People:

Yeah I remember the good old days, when the truth hurt. Now we just cover it up with euphemisms and <earthy anglosaxon noun removed here> so as not to offend people. Ah well - sometimes it sucks to be you I guess.

[takeo]

cerulean, sorry i confused, but you have to understand normally your opinions are so similar...
yea mediocre, i guess jealousy for some real non-commercial culture and art of living that is lacking totally in your country is inevitable. sorry you are not allowed to live in our country but you can always move to Israel, still better than the US.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
cerulean, sorry i confused, but you have to understand normally your opinions are so similar...


Pay a little more attention to your fellow posters. So far as I can see, they range the spectrum from right-wing to left-wing, with different views of proper social policy, American foreign policy, and many other things.

[takeo]

Perhaps, but relating the middle east, they are very resembling.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU

How about dismantling the UN?

A clever idea. Why didn't I think of it?
I have as less dramatic solution though:

The United Nations must be held accountable. The world cannot be silent and
continue to let this organization assume a position of world leadership, using our
tax money ($11 billion annually by US !) to support it, with its center location
in New York City, while continually declaring a political war against Israel and
supporting terror against Israel.

After the most recent MASSACRE in Rishon Letzion which killed 16 people and
wounded 60, the U.N. had the audacity to CONDEMN ISRAEL the very next day. The
vote was 74-4 with 54 abstentions. There were no votes condemning Palestinian
terrorism.

why they still have not called an emergency "security council" meeting about the
MASSACRE in Israel? Didn't they call several such meetings to help their
Palestinian terrorists? In fact, we want to know WHY there has never been an
emergency meeting after Jews have been massacred by the friends of the U.N.? While
on the topic, we don't recall Mr. Annan calling for an emergency meeting after
9/11. Doesn't the U.S. taxpayer give $11 billion to this corrupt organization
annually?

Until the U.N. calls an emergency meeting of the security council to condemn the
MASSACRE of Jews, VOTES on it with an unconditional resolution, and sends a team
to inquire how these massacres took place and what human rights violations were
committed by the PA, it is violating all that it is supposed to stand for. And,
by the way, why hasn't anyone heard from the U.N. Mideast "peace envoy", Terje
Larsen, about this?

Confronted with evidence of illegal Palestinian mines, mortars and missiles, no
U.N. official questioned how it was that bomb factories could exist in
U.N.-managed refugee camps. Either the U.N. officials were unaware of the bomb
factories -- a fact that would suggest utter incompetence -- or more likely, the
U.N. employees simply turned a blind eye.

If the United Nations is to be reflecting the values of peace, justice and unity,
we must gain momentum and grow in numbers to reflect our disgust with the present
betrayal of these common human values.

URGE THE UN TO
INVESTIGATE PALESTINIAN TERROR IMMEDIATELY (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/303588867 )

Call Fred and his staff and demand to know what criminal logic was behind this.
Yes, Annan issued some tepid and banal "condemnation" for the media, but frankly,
it just does not cut it. Annan only minces words when Jewish lives are taken, but
he is very graphic when condemning Israel.
United Nations: - Fred Ekherd (Annan's spokesman)
PH# 212-963-5128 FAX# 212-963-7055 EMAIL: inquiries@un.org

[Batman]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU

If you can't find decent arguments, lampboy, shut up. Don't make them into ad-hominem arguments, because they don't fit into your narrow-minded world of Israel+US!!! Guess what: There are 5.5 billion other people living on this planet, 1 billion of them Muslims ...

So what? During World War II the entire world WAS WRONG. The world is known to follow in corruption not lead in justice. Just look around and find proof everywhere. It so happened that the minority of Israel is always persecuted for a variety of reasons.

Anti Semitism is the root of evil. Stop Anti Semitism and let the Jews fight for everyone else's justice.


"narrow-minded world of Israel+US!!!"
Perhaps WWII shows that narrow mindedness existed before Israel was created in 1948.
We thought the EU had done its penance over the atrocities against the Jews (before Israel) and now we can all be one happy enlightened people.

It's so important to look inside the EU heart and see... are there still the old roots of the ancient Jew hatered...will EU be able to muster the courage to honestly face the Muslim population that is washing over its shores and disagree with much of this Muslim population's policies against Israel and Jews?
Or will the EU conveniently dismiss the matter as a 'minority' problem, the 'Israel is at fault' solution, never mind justice, let's capitulate to the force of terror...if you can't beat them then at least they should vote for you and not attack you in your EU homes

Ever notice that it's lonely at the top?

[takeo]

from which institution did you escape?

[NewsGuy]

Sorry, there had to be some intervention here.

[L@mplighterM]

You don?t have to sorry; on the contrary it?s most likely me that should be sorry.

My only motive for posting his post was to show everyone just exactly what kind of people exists in the world.

Been painting posters for a pro Israel demonstration today, I hope we don?t get shot at.

[takeo]

i immidiately recognised the special language of Lomplighter...

[elke]

Re what that right-wing racist hasbara ****bag has to say, all those here not receiving shekels from Israeli PR firms to confuse the issues, and promote their hatel KNOW THESE FACTS:

What language is this in?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
i immidiately recognised the special language of Lomplighter...

Listen here you dumb Arab frog I don’t know what you’re trying to pull. Are you implying that I’m LeFrenchman because I posted a copy of his post?

[Morpheus]

You got to admit, it's strange. What kind of American wants to refer himself as a Frenchman and start his first post with attacking Belgium@EU :D This post is already a couple of weeks old, and it's the first time somebody replied to it.

Maybe we should aks Belgium's opinion :D :D