Israel: Captured documents show EU aid subsidizing war

[L@mplighterM]

*

[Belgium@EU]

Israel? Why should we believe what Israel is saying? The only thing our gov't did wrong was paying for Palestinian education, school books. This school books contained information which was not in the advantage of israel, that's true, but don't worry. The terrorist-schools have all been destroyed now.

Our gov't is even going to charge the Israeli gov't for destroying an airfield which was paid with EU-money!

If the Israeli's are not paying for the Palestinians, somebody has to do it. I know, some people rather keep them stupid, and dying from hunger an lack of health care, but any civilised nation can not accept this and sends in aid packages.

Ohh, that's true, the Israeli gov't doesn't like the Red Cross either.

[Mediocrates]

Because the IRC has ROUTINELY DENIED MEMEBERSHIP of the Magan David organization since its inception with the lame excuse that their logo is non compliant.

The US head of the of the US Red Cross was forced to resign because she dared lobby for the Israelis inclusion.

BTW the first aid agency on the ground in Kosovo - muslim Kosovo was the Magen David. The Red Crescents still apparently can't get their travel plans organized.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Israel? Why should we believe what Israel is saying? The only thing our gov't did wrong was paying for Palestinian education, school books. This school books contained information which was not in the advantage of israel, that's true, but don't worry. The terrorist-schools have all been destroyed now.

Our gov't is even going to charge the Israeli gov't for destroying an airfield which was paid with EU-money!

If the Israeli's are not paying for the Palestinians, somebody has to do it. I know, some people rather keep them stupid, and dying from hunger an lack of health care, but any civilised nation can not accept this and sends in aid packages.

Ohh, that's true, the Israeli gov't doesn't like the Red Cross either.

Actually here are a couple of passages from Palestinian school textbooks.


What so-called "Palestinians" Teach in School:
"Patriotism in Islam: In Islam, it is not improper for a Muslim to love his homeland. To the contrary, Islam encourages this, and established its defense as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine... Islam considers anyone who is killed while defending [the land] a martyr of the highest order..."
-- Islamic Education Code (sixth grade)
Part A, p. 67-68
September 2000
"Oh you who are Jews, if you think that you are favored of Allah, to the exclusion of others. Then long for death if you are truthful. But they will never long for it because of the [deeds] their hands have sent before... as for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you..."
n Passage from Koran
Sixth grade PA textbook, p. 23

That really makes for good neighbors. Further if it’s your contention that teachings like this has been eliminated you’re wrong.

Teaching takes many forms and below is a few individuals that are undoubtedly inciting Muslims to do grievous harm against Jews.

Quotes from PA religious leaders regarding territorial compromise:
" We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre.... we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic."
[Note: Jaffa and Acre are Israeli cities.]
-- Sheikh Ikrima Sabri
Palestinian Authority's Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine
Palestinian Television
January 11, 2001
"Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget [the currently Israeli cities of] Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time. . ."
-- Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah
Palestinian Television
October 13, 2000
"All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized."
-- Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi Palestinian Television
July 28, 2000
"We exaggerate when we say 'peace'... what we are speaking about is 'Hudna', a temporary ceasefire."
-- Arab Knesset Member Abdel Maleh Dahamshe
Palestinian Television
September 1, 2000
The terrorist schools throughout Islam hasn’t been destroyed.

[Belgium@EU]

If Israel wants us to believe those documents, than they should give them to the EU. If you accuse someone of being a terrorist (or supporting it what's basically the same), than at least give the evidence. I doubt that the documents are real, anyway. Israel has about the same credibility as the 5-year old kid who said he didn't steal the sweets. They are the ones that were being accused by the international community (Jenin), now they want to move their responsabilities towards the EU. Give me a break!!!


The EU gave financial backup to terrorists. What kind of backward organisation do they consider the EU to be? That we just give money to any person and say : you can do whatever you want to do with it. Every cent that we gave is checked and double-checked! The only ones I can remember of giving money to terrorists where the Americans who supported Mujahedin through Pakistan.

Who's next?
- The UN - I guess they train Palestinian terrorists in their "training-camps" in Geneva
- The red Cross probably delivers arms to these terrorist
- Amnesty International? OK, I forgot, they help releasing terrorists from prisons.

If I have problems with too many people, the first think I would do is look at myself. Maybe it's 'I' who's mistaking! If only Israel would listen to the international community and not to that mass-murderer aka "prime-minister".

[gregg]

Actually they just sent a 91 page book documenting the documents they recovered.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
If Israel wants us to believe those documents, than they should give them to the EU.
Again, who cares about convincing the governments of Europe? These governments are biased oil-slaves who would never change their positions based on documentation from Israel.

Only if the US gives its stamp of approval will the European governments be forced to accept the judgement of the US.

You really have an inflated idea of the EU position in the world that Israel needs to cower to convince the great EU to show mercy and give Israel some royal "nod."

The EU gave financial backup to terrorists. What kind of backward organisation do they consider the EU to be? That we just give money to any person and say : you can do whatever you want to do with it. Every cent that we gave is checked and double-checked!
What kind of backwards organization is the EU?? It is a primitive, hypocritical tool of the Arabs when it comes to the Mideast. It is an organization useless to deal with racism or real political issues, and it is basically worthless other than perhaps judging a cooking or hair-styling contest or something European like that.

As far as checking and double-checking the European money given to the Palestinians, you must be either very uninformed or very naiive. Are you a high-school student, by any chance, Mr. Belgium? Starting university maybe?

If I have problems with too many people, the first think I would do is look at myself. Maybe it's 'I' who's mistaking!
That's another superficial component of the Arab propaganda which maybe works great in Europe. But in the rest of the world, it is pretty obvious that Israel does not have a "problem" with the world. In fact, Israel has a problem with the Arab states and their oil slaves. It is a badge of honor to disagree with that group, not an indication of isolation.

[Mediocrates]

I believe that the EU itself has admitted that it gave at least 50 euro to the PA which went missing, although it may have gone to personally enrich Arafat & co. personal bank accounts.

[Vic]

Interview with Chris Patten in Ha'aretz:


But nevertheless, it seems that the EU is quite happy to use its power on one side, namely Israel, while not putting pressure on the Palestinians - to whom you offer substantial economic aid - so as to make sure that they meet their obligations as set down in the Oslo accords, first and foremost on the issue of security. And the Karine A arms shipment affair was not condemned.

"Yes, it was. Regularly."

In public?

"In public."

And denouncing the links of the Palestinians with Iran and the ...

"There were denounced in public."

[Note: upon further examination by Ha'aretz, it was established that the EU has never formally denounced the Karine A affair and merely called for an investigation into it. - S.S.]

What about European reactions to incitement against Israel?

"If there is anything in Palestinian textbooks that encourages hatred of Jews, and if there is anything in Jewish textbooks that encourages similar views about Arabs or Palestinians, I would deplore it. And why do you assume that someone like me would not deplore these things? It is a piece of fabricated propaganda to suggest that the EU has funded textbooks that contain hatred of Jews, and there were independent reports into those allegations. They are straightforward fabrications, a piece of propaganda which we shot down again and again.

But isn't it the case that the EU pays for the teachers in the Palestinian educational system?

"Having charged us with funding hate propaganda, the argument is now: Because we have helped to fund the PA, and funded some of those who had been administrating schools or whatever, we should take responsibility for the fact that some of what has been used in Palestinian schools is hostile to Jews, and presumably should stand in every classroom, checking what has been said. I mean: Let's get real."

[Note: Documentary evidence supplied by the EU shows that several member states contributed to the printing of new educational textbooks in the PA, which contain anti- Israeli or anti-Jewish references - S.S]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154300&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

[L@mplighterM]

Quote from Belgium in Bold:

If Israel wants us to believe those documents, than they should give them to the EU. If you accuse someone of being a terrorist (or supporting it what's basically the same), than at least give the evidence. I doubt that the documents are real, anyway. Israel has about the same credibility as the 5-year old kid who said he didn't steal the sweets. They are the ones that were being accused by the international community (Jenin), now they want to move their responsabilities towards the EU. Give me a break!!!

I can assure you that the documents are real Belgium. No democratically elected state would forge documents and forward them to the world. If you get caught doing anything like that your credibility becomes tarnished unless you’re Arafat.

[Belgium@EU]

But in the rest of the world, it is pretty obvious that Israel does not have a "problem" with the world.

What do you mean with the rest of the world. There are plenty of protestors in Russia, South Africa, South America, Canada ... I hope you realise that.

Ohh, and you may find the EU backwards, I don't care (IMHO I'd rather be backward than barbaric), but it's actually only Israel who thinks that way. The US knows that the EU is their biggest trade partner, and doesn't want to affect their bileteral relations with it. Israel is not of any economic importance for the US (at least not compared to EU, Saudi Arabia), it's just a political/military ally in the middle east. Israel is lucky the US still sympathises with them, without US, they wouldn't survive a week.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Israel is lucky the US still sympathises with them, without US, they wouldn't survive a week.

So are you saying the EU wants the destruction of Israel? This wouldn't be terribly surprising, because the EU is certainly acting as if it does.

In your ideal universe where the EU gets what it wants, what would Israel look like?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Israel is not of any economic importance for the US (at least not compared to EU, Saudi Arabia), it's just a political/military ally in the middle east. Israel is lucky the US still sympathises with them, without US, they wouldn't survive a week.
That's an interesting point about Israel's survival. I think Israel would survive just fine, mainly because of two reasons:

1. The vast majority of the world's Jewish and conservative Christian community would come to Israel's aid financially and politically in case of crisis.

2. Let's face it -- Israel, as you well know, is a nuclear power with a nuclear arsenal equivalent to that of the UK, by some accounts. Without even a single threat, we have seen that nuclear powers are treated with utmost respect and consideration for their feelings in a time of national crisis.

So, while Israel depends like any other country on international trade to maintain a certain standard of living, this myth about being dependent for survival is just a fantasy.

[takeo]

israel abuses its military power, it refuses an investigation commission to research alleged crimes, it refuses to stop occupying, it refuses to negociate with Arafat, it makes hatefull comments about the Palestinian people, in school books as well are racist (i saw in israel how schoolkids are teached that Arabs have a lower civilisation than Jews), it is really a country who thinks that anything can go and anything is allowed, as long as it is protected under the umbrella of uncle sam.
This incredible arrogance has delivered the country so much hate, and has turned even its closest allies (Europe) against it. Europe doesn't want the destruction of israel, but it seems Sharon and co. are doing their best to make as many ennemies as possible. I think israel should be teached a lesson, but not military but economically, a total embargo of all countries in about 6000 km. distance from israel would make the message pretty clear...
we ain't going to take it any more...
You would be surprised of how quick Arafat would be a peace-partner again and how quick the settlements and occupation would disappear...
And afterwards, as the French in Algeria, israeli will live in peace and wonder how they could be so stupid to hold on to a lost and wrong case all that time, at the cost of many lifes.
The US will never act against israel and israeli seem to prefere mass-murderers as their leaders while the palestinians are in an inferior position, so the initiative has to come from Europe.
of course Europe has never financed terror, and we all know how israel thinks about facts... only the present government considers all support to the pa as terrorism... simple and easy.

it is not childish to say that one has to criticise himself too sometimes, Palestinians are doing it(the 1948 war and the claim to drive the israeli in the sea), Europeans are doing it (colonialism) and even yankees are doing it (most will now consider vietnam as a terrible mistake and will admit that war-crimes happened) now still remains the israeli to admit some mistakes they made... it could be the beginning of a healing process and a less extremist policy, some moderation would be wellcome...

[Belgium@EU]

So, while Israel depends like any other country on international trade to maintain a certain standard of living, this myth about being dependent for survival is just a fantasy.


Ohh yeah? First of all, how else could such a small country like Israel (which has a strong economy but is not a superpower) have an army which is as big as the British or French armed forces, can buy new F-16's, F-15's, Merkva Tanks, Apaches every year? Because they were not bought, they were donated by the USA. It's the US that gives military backup to Israel, without it, Israel wouldn't have the capabilities to defend itself against 6 surrounding Arab States!



No democratically elected state would forge documents and forward them to the world


They did not forward them to the world. Sharon gave a copy to Bush and maybe one to Blair but that's it. The EU is very angry at Israel because they are accusing them for supporting terrorists without any proof. To answer your question: maybe the Israeli gov't would. After all, it wouldn't be the first time they would twist facts, hide their actions ...

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
So, while Israel depends like any other country on international trade to maintain a certain standard of living, this myth about being dependent for survival is just a fantasy.


Ohh yeah? First of all, how else could such a small country like Israel (which has a strong economy but is not a superpower) have an army which is as big as the British or French armed forces, can buy new F-16's, F-15's, Merkva Tanks, Apaches every year? Because they were not bought, they were donated by the USA. It's the US that gives military backup to Israel, without it, Israel wouldn't have the capabilities to defend itself against 6 surrounding Arab States!



No democratically elected state would forge documents and forward them to the world


They did not forward them to the world. Sharon gave a copy to Bush and maybe one to Blair but that's it. The EU is very angry at Israel because they are accusing them for supporting terrorists without any proof. To answer your question: maybe the Israeli gov't would. After all, it wouldn't be the first time they would twist facts, hide their actions ...

Actually the head of the EU has a copy of the 91 page documents. Of course the EU is going to take the position that everything is forged.

So what?

I’ve written off Belgium and France anyways. One is a ****ty little country in Europe and the other could fit in a corner off my backyard.

As far as weaponry goes I’m sorry to inform you that there’s no freebies.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
israel abuses its military power, it refuses an investigation commission to research alleged crimes, it refuses to stop occupying, it refuses to negociate with Arafat, it makes hatefull comments about the Palestinian people, in school books as well are racist (i saw in israel how schoolkids are teached that Arabs have a lower civilisation than Jews),
Do you have any proof for these ridiculous statements, or are these just part of the usual Arab-apologist paranoid hallucinations?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Ohh yeah? First of all, how else could such a small country like Israel (which has a strong economy but is not a superpower) have an army which is as big as the British or French armed forces, can buy new F-16's, F-15's, Merkva Tanks, Apaches every year?
Israel does not have nearly as large of a conventional army as France or the UK.

As the for Merkava tanks, you might not be aware that Israel manufactures its own, and also has a large domestic weapons production business which is even large enough to export weapons.

But in general, yes, Israel buys advanced weapons from the US, just like the UK and France buy those weapons from the US. So what?

After all, it wouldn't be the first time they would twist facts, hide their actions ...

Can you actually name any time that Israel released false documents, or is this just what the "reliable" and "trustworthy" Arab news sites are claiming? Or maybe this is something that you are just hoping would be true, but in fact, is completely false?

What's your source, please, for this accusation?

[McSceptic]

The extent of the EU having a foreign policy is overstated. The EU is basically a trade zone with add-ons, and the European nation states aren't yet convinced they need a foreign policy as a hood ornament. Solana was only appointed in the last couple of years.

The acid test of any foreign policy is whether governments will put muscle behind it, and the French and the British aren't about to send troops overseas to get shot under an Eu flag. The Germans are only just getting back into the game, the Italians,well...Did I leave anyone out? I don't think so. And even the French and the British can only muster three aircraft carriers between them (ours you could lose in a bathtub, and the French won't let the Clemencau out the harbour in case someone sinks it). The US has 13 carrier groups!

The national governments seem to have given the EU a crack at the Israeli/Palestinian thing as a test of collegiate working, but if it fails it'll be the last foreign policy initiative the Eu gets entrusted with for a while. Why they picked that particular conflict I don't know. It's in our back yard, but just because there's a problem doesn't mean there is a solution. I'd have started with something simple - Iran vs. Iraq?

[takeo]

The EU also had a common policy towards terrorism, Iran, i
srael, China, etc. of course i'm the first to admit that the euro foreign policy is not consistent. Yet most european countries seem to be at the same viewpoint about the middle eastern conflict. Israel has in the past "released" a lot of facts about supposed terrorists that used conveniently to be their ennemies. Any time it couldn't proove its case, as for example in the case of the Karine A. At the same time israel doesn't allow any independant research about their and their ennemies supposed crimes, guess why?

"Do you have any proof for these ridiculous statements, or are these just part of the usual Arab-apologist paranoid hallucinations?"

didn't israel refuse the un-investigation commission about jenin, doesn't israel uses its military superiority to blackmail the palestinians and the Syrians (they know they are military superior and are abusing that fact), didn't israel stop occupying during more than 35 years?
and about the schoolbooks i saw it with my own eyes how history is teached in Israel... no positive words about the "arabs"... one sentence was like
"Israel is the land of the Jews and that's why it has a higher cultural levell than the neighbouring backwards countries"

[L@mplighterM]

Israel refused no UN investigation into the Jenin affair. CANT YOU READ?

Quite frankly I for one don?t believe that you?ve ever set foot out of the country where you are now. Don?t tell me anything about history classes in Israel. I just finished watching history classes in the West Bank and/or Gaza Strip on a video where they are though to kill Jews. You?re not going convince me that Jews are thought to kill Palestinians in their classes.

The culture of most Palestinians is to kill Jews and support the killers.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Israel has in the past "released" a lot of facts about supposed terrorists that used conveniently to be their ennemies. Any time it couldn't proove its case, as for example in the case of the Karine A. At the same time israel doesn't allow any independant research about their and their ennemies supposed crimes, guess why?
I think you need to understand that captured documentation and admissions of co-conspirators and co-terrorists is exactly the definition of legal proof in any court.

But anyway, again you cannot seem to manage to point to any time that documents released by Israeli was actually false. That's because the proof released by Israel has been consistently true.

didn't israel refuse the un-investigation commission about jenin, doesn't israel uses its military superiority to blackmail the palestinians and the Syrians (they know they are military superior and are abusing that fact), didn't israel stop occupying during more than 35 years?
I don't know what this has to do with anything we are discussing. UN inspectors were invited to Jenin, as were US and EU and Amnesty International representatives, for one thing.


and about the schoolbooks i saw it with my own eyes how history is teached in Israel... no positive words about the "arabs"... one sentence was like
"Israel is the land of the Jews and that's why it has a higher cultural levell than the neighbouring backwards countries"
Wow... with your own eyes... Do you read Hebrew fluently? Because the Israeli history and social-studies texbooks I read with my own eyes are all written in Hebrew, and contained no such nonesense as you claim.

But speaking of racist textbooks and incitement to racism and mass murder, I think that it is undeniable that it is the Palestinian reality for their schoolchildren, including of course suicide bombing training for kindergarten children.

[takeo]

Do you read Arab? it seems as if you've studied in palestinian schools yourself. I think you know as much about palestinian schools as about France, seen trough the very coloured glasses of the JP...
But anyway i've been to palestinin territory, and if you see the situation there you don't need schoolbooks to feel hate against the israeli military...
I don't read Hebrew, but my friends translated, they wanted to show me this.

Israel "facts" are no facts but accusations, they will only be facts if researched by international bodies who have no interest to be biased. But strangely enough israel doesn't seem to be keen on independant research...
Really did israel allow un-inspectors to visit jenin? how come that i read the contrary on CNN and BBC???
of course they would love to allow inspectors who can only interview people especially selected by israel... but than again this is not really according to the principles of free research...

[Mediocrates]

the only facts are the ones takeo orders you to accept. didn't you get the memo?

[L@mplighterM]

Bold posted by takeo
Do you read Arab? it seems as if you've studied in palestinian schools yourself. I think you know as much about palestinian schools as about France, seen trough the very coloured glasses of the JP...
But anyway i've been to palestinin territory, and if you see the situation there you don't need schoolbooks to feel hate against the israeli military...
I don't read Hebrew, but my friends translated, they wanted to show me this.

First statement:

and about the schoolbooks i saw it with my own eyes how history is teached in Israel... no positive words about the "arabs"... one sentence was like

Second statement:

I don't read Hebrew, but my friends translated, they wanted to show me this.


You're a slippery story teller whose credibility is NIL to me, anyone that believes a word that you say is a fool.

You have one thing in common with Arafag and that is that you're both pathological liars. Of course you may also have something else in common.


No I don't read Arabic fluently but I've heard you crazy bastards screaming DEATH TO JEWS AND AMERICANS so many times that I recognize certain phrases in your language. By the way what dialect do you speak?

[Mediocrates]

http://memri.org/sr.html

Under this page is a link to a report on Palestinian schoolbooks, available in pdf format as well. It has examples. Any of you are of course free to believe or disbelieve what you read see and hear.



By The Way there is another link there that discusses the Palestinian right of return from the Palestinian perspective. Most of it is sourced from al-Hayat, al-Quds and al-Ayyam:

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR00401

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

Israel does not have nearly as large of a conventional army as France or the UK.

Yes it has, with 120000 soldiers on active duty, and 350000 more reservists, Israel does have the largest army in the world for a country that could fit in our backyard.

As the for Merkava tanks, you might not be aware that Israel manufactures its own, and also has a large domestic weapons production business which is even large enough to export weapons
The Merkava tanks have got DaimerChrysler engines. So these tanks are partially manufactered in Germany.

But in general, yes, Israel buys advanced weapons from the US, just like the UK and France buy those weapons from the US. So what?

Indeed, and Israel also has a growing defence industry. They sell information to China (J-12 fighter planes, IAI Phalcon).

Can you actually name any time that Israel released false documents, or is this just what the "reliable" and "trustworthy" Arab news sites are claiming? Or maybe this is something that you are just hoping would be true, but in fact, is completely false?

What's your source, please, for this accusation?

I said it wouldn't be the first time israel would twist facts and hide actions. Sabra, Satillah, Jenin. If you paraphrase me, do it in a correct way, please.

[takeo]

"You're a slippery story teller whose credibility is NIL to me, anyone that believes a word that you say is a fool.
You have one thing in common with Arafag and that is that you're both pathological liars. Of course you may also have something else in common.
No I don't read Arabic fluently but I've heard you crazy bastards screaming DEATH TO JEWS AND AMERICANS so many times that I recognize certain phrases in your language. By the way what dialect do you speak?"

Did you consider some psychiatric treatment?
you told me last time you were in paris, if you don't believe me, let's meet, who knows i can introduce you to some Arab friends and cure you from your arabofobia...
It is clear to anyone with a little brains in here that i would be the last one to screem DEATH TO JEWS AND AMERICANS, you seems more like a screemer to me "death to arabs and muslims"

[Belgium@EU]

@Takeo
Don't give him too much attention, Takeo. He was probably abused as a kid, :D you should understand this.

Takeo is not an extremist, he says what everybody here in Europe thinks. In fact, he's one of the most moderate "pro-Palestinians" i've ever met.

@Lomplighter
We are not saying "Death to Jews and Americans". (I'm not a retard you know). You are the one who brings up articles like "Muslims vs west" and "let's start a civil war between gaza and West Bank". You're the psycho, but I won't say you're a liar. Liars know that they're wrong, you still think that what you say is true ... I would put that in the category ... mmm .... stupidity.

BTW, If I did say "Dead to Jews and Americans", I'll give you my name, adress, phone number. You can charge me for that in Belgian court. You see? There's a law which prohibits this, and there's also one in France. Ofcourse, in the big US of A there's freedom of speach, but here saying such things like 'death to Jews' is illegal! I'll mail you my adress. I hope you can find the evidence of me and Takeo saying such things.

But you, as a man of the world, who knows so much about European politics, I didn't need to tell you that, did I. :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

takeo where you been, man? we figured you graduated and lost your free internet connection....

[takeo]

right belgium zeer goed.
But i wouldn't give my name and adress if i were you, because being pro-palestinian is a crime for some extremist people who will know to find you...

mediocrates???

[takeo]

what do you mean?

[Belgium@EU]

Yeah, it's a crime to be pro-Palestinian. But France and Belgium are democracies, civilised nations so I won't be hanged for it, or fried :-). Ofcourse there are some other nations which claim to be democratic, but still continue with barbaric acts such as capital punishment. I'm happy to live in the 'free' world.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
BTW, If I did say "Dead to Jews and Americans", I'll give you my name, adress, phone number. You can charge me for that in Belgian court. You see? There's a law which prohibits this, and there's also one in France. Ofcourse, in the big US of A there's freedom of speach, but here saying such things like 'death to Jews' is illegal! I'll mail you my adress. I hope you can find the evidence of me and Takeo saying such things.
Funny, this one. All European Jew-haters just love giving their names and addresses. A lot put them in open internet forums too (and challenge everyone, first of all the Jewish participants, to do the same).
One wonders why. A sort of exhibitionism?

[Kinetic]

I find it quite odd that none of the arab states surrounding Israel and the occupied territories have not integrated the Palestinian people into their countries. Meaning we have Mexican people crossing into the United States all the time, and a majority of them recieve citizenship. However, numerous Palestinians live in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon without any sort of citizenship within those countries, nor is an offer even made by the afore mentioned countries. I think that this is simply to cause more friction in regards to Israel. Palestinians feel they have no where else to go, so they stay in refugee camps in the territories or the neighboring countries. Hating Israel for their situation the entire time.

Now as far as the "occupied territories go.. I believe Israel won the contested area in a war, and should be able to keep it. I personally would not have given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt as far as that goes. All the land I have just mentioned was won in a war that arab nations started, and Israel won. I say to the victors go the spoils. The EU cries foul when the IDF enters Palestinian territory in reaction to suicide bombings originating from there. Most Americans don't. By example, if there were a rash of suicide bombers attacking the US from Canada or Mexico with support of the governments of either of those countries, we would turn that particular country into a smoking hole in the ground.

One last point in my ramblings.. I notice several people mention that Israel would not last a week without US support. If we stopped supporting Israel tomorrow, the arab states surrounding Israel would do nothing more than they do now. The reason you ask? They don't want their country to be on the recieving end of a nuclear strike.

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by Vic

Funny, this one. All European Jew-haters just love giving their names and addresses. A lot put them in open internet forums too (and challenge everyone, first of all the Jewish participants, to do the same).
One wonders why. A sort of exhibitionism?

Jew-haters? Facts? facts? facts? facts? Well, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Well, if criticizing Israel is the same as hating Jews, than I'm probably one of the worst anti-semites in the world. It's so sad when people accuse one another without facts. Pathetic.

[takeo]

"I find it quite odd that none of the arab states surrounding Israel and the occupied territories have not integrated the Palestinian people into their countries. Meaning we have Mexican people crossing into the United States all the time, and a majority of them recieve citizenship. However, numerous Palestinians live in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon without any sort of citizenship "within those countries, nor is an offer even made by the afore mentioned countries. I think that this is simply to cause more friction in regards to Israel. Palestinians feel they have no where else to go, so they stay in refugee camps in the territories or the neighboring countries. Hating Israel for their situation the entire time. "

it is true that palestinians are not integrated in those Arab neighbouring countries because that would mean that the etnic cleansing of 1948 by israel would have succeeded, those people however don't want to live in Syria, etc. some want to return to their houses and possesions. Israel always refused to talk about a solution for this problem. By the way etnic cleansing and refusing people to come back to their land on etnic base is illegal.


"Now as far as the "occupied territories go.. I believe Israel won the contested area in a war, and should be able to keep it. I personally would not have given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt as far as that goes. All the land I have just mentioned was won in a war that arab nations started, and Israel won. I say to the victors go the spoils. The EU cries foul when the IDF enters Palestinian territory in reaction to suicide bombings originating from there. Most Americans don't. "

We had this discussion many times here, ISRAEL started the 1967 war, get it in your head!!!!!!
But even if the Arabs would have started this is no reason to occupy other regions of the conquered countries, we are no longer living in the 19th century!!! again, read international law and geneva- conventions. and as long as israel is occupying this lands, the Arabs have the right to attack israel, LEGALLY. that's why the un and most of the world is against Israel's policy. no other country occupying lands in a war was able to hold it without war (indonesia, iraq), israel is no different only a little stronger but will finally have to stop the occupation.



"By example, if there were a rash of suicide bombers attacking the US from Canada or Mexico with support of the governments of either of those countries, we would turn that particular country into a smoking hole in the ground. "

I know you would, that would however give you the eternal hate of mexicans or Canadians, and they would act according to it(rightfully). If great-Brittain did this with ireland, than there wouldn't be a peace-process now and we would still hear daily terrorist attacks on London.

"One last point in my ramblings.. I notice several people mention that Israel would not last a week without US support. If we stopped supporting Israel tomorrow, the arab states surrounding Israel would do nothing more than they do now. The reason you ask? They don't want their country to be on the recieving end of a nuclear strike."

i wouldn't say a week, but after several years of not receiving any updated american high-tech weapons anymore, israel would certainly loose a war against a coalition of Arab and muslim countries (sme of which have nuclear weapons as well).

[Vic]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Jew-haters? Facts? facts? facts? facts?
Tell me what languages you can read, and next time I stumble across such writings on the internet I'll post the links here.

[Vic]

Good idea, isn't it?



Israeli family sues EU for Palestinian attack

By The Associated Press

Jerusalem - An Israeli family filed a 100 million shekel (20.7 million dollars)lawsuit against the European Union on Monday, alleging that EU grants to the Palestinian Authority indirectly benefited gunmen who carried out a deadly shooting attack on the Blumberg family in August.

The family's lawyer, Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, said the European Union was reckless in providing financial aid to the Palestinian Authority. She alleged that some of the EU money was being redirected by the Palestinian Authority to Palestinian militant groups - such as the one that carried out the attack on the British-born Blumberg family - and that the EU was aware of the practice.

A European Commission official said the EU is investigating claims by Israel that the Palestinian Authority has used member states' money to carry out attacks against Israelis.

"We have yet to receive any evidence that the Palestinian Authority has misused our funds to fund terrorist activities. The Commission did say that they were treating these allegations made by the Israeli government very seriously and that it awaits any evidence to show that those funds have been misused," said David Kriss, a spokesman for the European Commission in Israel.

Techiya Blumberg, 35, was five months pregnant when she was killed in a Palestinian drive-by shooting in the West Bank on August 5. Her husband, Steven Blumberg, and 14-year-old daughter were also injured in the attack and remain paralyzed, Darshan-Leitner said in a statement.

Steven Blumberg and his five children are suing the EU over his wife's death. He and his injured daughter are also suing over their wounds.

Israeli security forces arrested two members of the Palestinian security forces last year and accused them of having participated in the attack on the Blumbergs.

"Without the EU's reckless provision of financing to the Palestinians, hundreds of Israeli terror victims would still be alive and thousands of others would never have had to suffer their tragic injuries," Darshan-Leitner said.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=166034&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

[Morpheus]

Fine for me, as soon as they found the evidence, the cheque will be send to these people.

[Vic]

To revive this thread:

A large German weekly has just published an long thoroughly researched article full of scandalous details of the way the EU financial assistance is used to finance terror. It's in German, sorry ;) : http://www.zeit.de/2002/24/Politik/200224_arafat_haupttext.html

Watch this site for at translation: http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/archives/000021.html#000021

In the meantime, two German Eurpean Parlament deputies, this time conservatives, are demanding to stop the payments completely and investigate the accusations (German only again: http://www.aachener-zeitung.de/corem/corem/az/news/politik/corem/templates/corem/az/news/politik/meldung.jhtml/nahost0706193020_20606.html and http://www.welt.de/daten/2002/06/08/0608eu336836.htx ) This must have been going on for some time, according to an article from late April (http://www.welt.de/daten/2002/04/25/0425au328318.htx) the German Foreign Ministry and the Bundesnachrichtendienst, a counterpart of CIA, are investigating the claims. I have seen no similar reports from EU countries other than Germany until now, but then Germans are very sensitive about money :D

I hope the payments will stop, and that the US government will do the same - a much more simple and efficient measure than destroying homes, killing the murderers' families and similar, which has been discussed here several times.

P.S.: Yesterday the Ha'aretz newsticker mentioned a claim by the EC that Israel has so far supplied no proof that it is EU money that is being used for terrorist purposes. Wait and see ;)

[Vic]

Update:
They did it!
Further EU financial aid to the PA is stopped completely (from July on) pending investigations (don't ask me why only German sites consider this worth being reported: http://www.welt.de/daten/2002/06/08/0608eu336835.htx). Things coul get rather unpleasant for Chris Patten himself too, according to the article. He is being accused of serious irregularities in transferring the payments.

[Iori Yagami]

OMFG, that`s impossible. That would mean that, that, that takeo and the belgian dude were WRONG? How could that be?

[elke]

Funny coincidence: EU stops aid to the PA starting in July, and that website stops publishing at the same time...

Just how independent these Palestinian news sites are?

[Vic]

Originally posted by Iori Yagami
OMFG, that`s impossible. That would mean that, that, that takeo and the belgian dude were WRONG? How could that be?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Iori,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." ;)

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
Funny coincidence: EU stops aid to the PA starting in July, and that website stops publishing at the same time...

Just how independent these Palestinian news sites are?
It's even funnier that the members of its editorial board, starring Noam Chomsky and "Mr. Khaled A. Al-Maeena: Editor-in-Chief of Arab News Daily, (Saudi Arabia)" among others, cannot provide for it :confused:

[Vic]

The latest news from the EU inspire me to propose, with apologies to Blue Moon ;) , a "peace framework", step 1:

(1) Stop all financial assistance to the Palestinians (isn't the Palestinian banking system still - at least partially - under Israeli control, btw.?)

(2) Make a big public show (announcements, interviews etc.) of redirecting the funds to meet Israeli needs, first and foremost to assist the victims of terrorism.

(3) See what happens. My prediction: this will make the attacks much less attractive for the Palestinians. They may not stop completely, but this would make clear that they are not supported by the international community.

Steps 2 and following can be left for the conflicting parties themselves to figure out.

I do realize that Iraq and similar countries would hardly comply, but I understand that they are not the ones providing the actual bulk of financial support. Anyway this would be the ideal nonviolent approach, requiring no particular action on the Israeli side.

[Vic]

A short article on it from the IMRA:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=12404

I have no information however on any connection to the Blumberg lawsuit.


... And it's not just the EU: :D

Ben-Eliezer asks Japan to control funding to Palestinians

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023621983119
Japan is the largest contributor to the Palestinian Authority. In the past they have donated over $600 million.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.newaus.com.au/israel277_economist.html


This article from The New Australian thinks it is.

[Vic]

Still nothing on the payments stop outside of Germany, afaik. Inside, it's Big News. According to http://www.welt.de/daten/2002/06/11/0611eu337445.htx the Foreign Ministers of the EU countries are summoning Mr. Patten for an in-depth report on the payment procedure next week.

I'm really sorry for all of you who cannot read German. The material is lovely, to say the least. They have "just discovered", for example, that the person in charge of the control procedure, an IWF representative, happens to be a Palestinian from Jerusalem with a direct connection to Arafat.

Mr. Sharkansky promises to post the translation of the article that started the whole affair.

[Vic]

The translation of the german article is online: http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/arafatbombs.html

Enjoy it ;)

P.S.: This isn't my personal thread, is it? It's getting lonely here...
Am I really the only person in this forum interested in whether Mr. Arafat will recieve his next 10 million euro monthly allowance? :D

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic
P.S.: This isn't my personal thread, is it? It's getting lonely here...
Am I really the only person in this forum interested in whether Mr. Arafat will recieve his next 10 million euro monthly allowance? [/B]

No, no! I appreciate the information definitely, but I don't know anything to add to it. After I read the translation you provided a link for, maybe :-)

[Vic]

Just discovered this in Ha'aretz (from June 10th):

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=174631&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
The European Commission has accepted Israel's claims that the Palestinian Authority is supporting terrorist attacks, but is rejecting Israel's demands that it suspend financial aid to the PA. The commission says Israel has failed to prove that European Union funds are being used to finance terror.

[...]

The head of the EC's delegation to Israel, Giancarlo Chevallard, told Ha'aretz that at the meeting, the delegation saw evidence that Arafat is financing terrorism, but added Israel had not provided evidence that European financial aid - which is designated to pay the salaries of PA employees - is being used to finance terrorist attacks.

Another senior delegation official said he was extremely skeptical Israel had evidence to prove European aid is being used by the PA to finance terrorism.

The contents of the documents presented at the meeting were transmitted to EC External Relations Commissioner Chris Patten. An EC spokesman in Brussels, Gunar Vigand [Gunnar Wiegand], said examination of the IDF documents had not been completed, but "several very concrete questions" had been presented to the Palestinian Finance Ministry regarding Israeli claims that EU funds are being used to finance terrorist attacks conducted by Fatah activists.

Vigand criticized a report published last week by the German weekly Die Zeit, which claimed the PA was using European aid to finance terrorist attacks. Vigand called the report - titled "Arafat Bombs, Europe Pays" - one-sided and said it was based on Naveh's claims

From the "Zeit" article:

The order to procure such weapons marked Yassir Arafat's strategic turnaround from a peaceful to a bloody solution to the conflict. This turnaround was accomplished in precisely the phase in which Europe placed its greatest trust in the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and promised him direct payments. How Arafat paid the friendly price of 10 million dollars for the Karine-A cargo is one of the mysteries of this affair. Whoever finds it reassuring should do the math. At the time of the weapons deal, Europe paid at least 10% of Yassir Arafat's day-to-day budget and 50% of all aid payments. Next to the Europeans, Arafat had only two other revenue sources -- substantial aid from the Arab states, and insignificant tax receipts. How great are the odds that Arafat has not soiled Europe's reputation?

EU Commissioner Chris Patten praises Europe's especially "strict mechanisms for ex-ante and ex-post controls". Every month, he says, funds are transferred only if the proper use of the aid in the previous month has been verified. The budget must be made fully transparent to the EU. Auxiliary budgets are not allowed. It is highly astonishing, therefore, how Arafat could so effortlessly drive an entire weapons ship past the budget.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic
[B]The translation of the german article is online: http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/arafatbombs.html



This is a good summary of events to date. This part is black humor:

On April 22, 2002 Palestinian Minister Nabil Shaath presented the members of the European Commission at the Mediterranean Conference in Valencia with a demand for aid in the amount of $1.9 Billion dollars. According to consistent reports from several witnesses, Shaath's wish-list contained line items such as $20.6 Million dollars for weapons and $40.6 Million dollars for the support of refugees and "martyr families". The Palestinians expected in all seriousness that the Europeans would follow Saddam Hussein's lead and pay blood money.

Thus far it seems that the Europeans haven't designated any money specifically for "martyr families." However, I somehow suspect accounting standards may be a little lax.

Clearly there is no shame whatsoever for the Palestinian minister in talking to Europeans about support for suicide murderers aka "martyrs."

[cerulean]

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716489925

Jun. 14, 2002
EU to blacklist Al Aqsa Brigades, PFLP
By THE JERUSALEM POST INTERNET STAFF


The European Union is set to add two Palestinian organizations that were involved in terrorist attacks against Israel to its "black list", Israel Radio reported Friday.

These organizations are the Fatah's Al Aqsa Brigades and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). The EU has ordered that all assets owned by the organizations mentioned in the list be frozen.

The EU's foreign ministers will be asked to approve the adding of the groups to the list in a convention set for Monday, in Luxemburg.

Islamic Jihad and Hamas are already included in the list, the radio reported.

===========
Are there any other Palestinian organizations that support terrorism that remain not blacklisted now?

[elke]

Finally! But what about the Tanzim and Force 17 - are those blacklisted too?

[Mediocrates]

What does blacklisting do? Does the money they give to the PLO suddenly burst into flames if touched by a PLFP member?

[elke]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
What does blacklisting do? Does the money they give to the PLO suddenly burst into flames if touched by a PLFP member?

No, the picture on the bill just gets a sour look on its face :D

[cerulean]

I'm sure all will be shocked by the following article:

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD39002

On June 7, 2002, the Kuwaiti Al-Watan daily published the following report:
"Yesterday, Al-Watan received documents from private sources in the Cairo branch of an Arab bank showing that Yasser Arafat had deposited in his name $5.1 million into a personal account. According to sources, this is theft of Arab aid funds allocated to the Palestinians through an arrangement between Arafat and his Cairo office head Ramzi Khouri."

"The sources added that according to the documents, these funds were deposited in the personal accounts of President Arafat to cover some of the president's personal expenses, including the costs of his wife Suha and their daughter who live in Paris and Switzerland."

"The sources added that nobody knows of this theft, with the exception of some of Arafat's closest cronies, including his Cairo office head Ramzi Khouri and Khaled Slam, originally from Iraq, whose real name is Muhammad Rashid and who is one of Arafat's top 'and most influential' advisors."

...

======
To be fair, I'm not sure I'd believe anything else from this newspaper, although I do believe Arafat has been skimming funds for a long time. It's interesting that this criticism of Arafat is being reported in an Arabic newspaper. There's no dispute that Arafat's wife and daughter live a luxurious life in Paris.

[Blue Moon]

Re: latest posts by Belgium@EU

Interesting spins.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you have, just perhaps, an issue
or two with Israel. If you are so inclined, I personally would like
to know:

1) Are your issues with Israel alone, or with the Jewish people in general ???

2) What region in Belgium are you from ???

3) Do you have any blood ties, or other ties to any of the Arabic or Persian countries in the Middle East ????

4) Are you a supporter of any political movements in Belgium?
If so, which ones ???

5) Assuming there was an independent Palestinian state,
how would you feel about the state of Israel ?

6) Looking from modern days backwards in time:
(a) Did any innocents ever die, or were any innocent persons ever oppressed or deprived of their "homeland" in order that the state of Belgium, or it's predacessors, could possess and control the land upon which your personal home sits ???

(b) If the answer to (a) is yes, could you please differentiate between your right to live where you do, and an Israeli's right to live in Israel.

(c) Regardless of your answer to (a), most countries in "civilized" Europe (as well as the U.S.) have current boundries today, that can be traced back to bloodshed, horrific war, and the slaughter of innocents and/or the deprivation of their homeland. Could you please differentiate between those countries "right" to possess the land they do and Isreal's right or, in your apparent opinion, lack of right, to possess the land it does ???

7) Are you Jewish ??? If so, perhaps you and Takeo could form a support group for self-hating Jews.

8) If you are not Jewish, how many of your closest friends are ???
Would you let a Jew into your country club ??? Why ???

:confused:

[Vic]

Blue Moon, B. hasn't been posting here for a month. Do you want to lure him back?

[Blue Moon]

Sorry. I'm kinda new at this.
Maybe he and Takeo are taking a "martyr"-bomber's class in France. With their remarkable, clear thinking analytical skills, ya think they'll try to practice first ?????
Just kidding, of course . . .
;)

[cerulean]

http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?aid=6677&sid=9

The allegations have been in the air for over two years: EU money is being used by Yassir Arafat's Palestinian Authority to fund terrorist activities. The claim by Ariel Sharon's government at the beginning of May that it had found "damning evidence" to support this allegation brought the polemic into the open. Concerned at the accusations, the Parliament suspended payment of some 18.5 million euro due to the Palestinians until May 19.

On Wednesday afternoon, Chris Patten, the external relations Commissioner, who has consistently denied that there is any hard evidence to support these claims, will face some tough questions from MEPs in the Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee, where it then should be decided whether or not to release the money which is part of EU aid going to Palestine since the Oslo Accord in 1993.
...

======

So the European Parliament should be putting Patten under the gun in a few hours. I somehow suspect, though, that a way will be found to get the money flowing again.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?aid=6677&sid=9 Sorry, it's not the original detailed article. Looking at the press articles they link to it's interesting to note that the - very short - French report offers the EC's perspective, while the German press (or, to put it exactly, a part of it) is "maintaining a critical distance" (a common polite expression in Germany for not accepting someone's point of view). I wonder what lies behind it. An attempt to topple Chris Patten?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic
Sorry, it's not the original detailed article.

True, but I think it's almost the only article in English that I've seen on the subject. I don't think any American newspaper has had anything about it.

No surprise, the EU Parliament has unblocked the funds to the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716521606

Quote:

The lone committee member to vote against the measure, Olivier Dupuis, complained that the West has been too willing to back authoritarian regimes in the Arab world, especially since the Sept. 11 attacks, to win support in the fight against al-Qaida.

"This is the opposite of the message we should be sending to the Arab people, which is support for democracy," he said.

Dupuis is an interesting character, not sure how I would categorize him in American terms:

A bio of Dupuis:
http://www.radicalparty.org/member/dupuis_foto/dupuis_foto/dup_e.htm

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
No surprise, the EU Parliament has unblocked the funds to the Palestinian Authority.

Right, no big surprise that the European hypocrites are back at funding Arab terrorism after serving as the political mouthpiece for Hizbullah.

The official fig-leaf is that the EU will demand a "full accounting" of where their money is being spent. But at the same time, the European Union's external affairs commissioner, Chris Patten, was forced to contradict that excuse, and admitted that corruption in Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority and "other problems" made it impossible to know where every euro finally ended up.

"It's an impossible question to ask in the real world," he said, according to Haaretz.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
No surprise, the EU Parliament has unblocked the funds to the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716521606
Ugh...

Pity though that there was no real attempt to push the issue outside of Europe immediately after the "Zeit" article was published :(

Aren't we discussing the Jewish/Israeli PR, or rather the lack of such the whole time here?

[NewsGuy]

Something positive happening in Europe, reported as a brief on Fox:

Monitoring Muslim Clerics

The Justice Ministry in the Netherlands has begun a criminal investigation into Muslim clerics in that country for inciting violence from their pulpits. The London Telegraph reports that the action was prompted when leading Imams in three cities were caught on tape calling for "destruction of the enemies of Islam" and urging Muslims to disobey Dutch law. The clerics also praised suicide murderers and denounced President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. The Dutch constitution protects freedom of speech and religion, but also speaks of responsibility to uphold the law of the land.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Something positive happening in Europe, reported as a brief on Fox:
[...]It has been done many times before, since "urging Muslims to disobey Dutch law" also poses danger to the own population - not really news. If European authorities were serious about preventing terrorist acts against Israelis they would have to put pressure on the more or less secular Palestinian organisations, which have been operating here freely for decades.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
Dupuis is an interesting character, not sure how I would categorize him in American terms:

A bio of Dupuis:
http://www.radicalparty.org/member/dupuis_foto/dupuis_foto/dup_e.htm He is so interesting a character that he can hardly be categorized in any terms. A touch of the lone wolf, I believe.


Btw. - another touching detail:

Kahane Chai included on EU terror list
http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716522178

Note: Hezbullah is still not on the list. And neither is Fatah/PLO, the very organisation responsible for hate propaganda cited by the critics of EU aid :mad:

Is there some nice superpower out there that could occupy this place once again and liberate us from the EU? ;)

[cerulean]

This is a petition to stop EU aid to the Palestinian Authority.
I can't comment if it is worthwhile to sign these or not, but here it is:

http://www.petitiononline.com/EUMoney/petition.html

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
This is a petition to stop EU aid to the Palestinian Authority.
I can't comment if it is worthwhile to sign these or not, but here it is:

http://www.petitiononline.com/EUMoney/petition.html I doubt that this particular petition makes sense.

It would be much more useful to create publicity for people like Olivier Dupuis or the German journalists who wrote the "Zeit" article and circulate as much accurate and solid information on PA/Arafat financing, involvement in terror etc. as possible - the internet being a marvellous tool for such campaigns :D . The next petition should rather demand compensation and aid for Israel.

[Vic]

A short follow-up article in the EU Observer:

Patten vigorously defends EU money to Palestine
http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=9&aid=6708

Something stinks...

[Vic]

This has caught my eye:

Zimbabwe: EC to provide €6 million in food aid (01/07/02)

The EC's contribution consists of €4 million worth of food aid distributed directly to households in Zimbabwe, and a further €2 million targeted at starving children and displaced farmers.

The €4 million will purchase more than 8,000 tonnes of maize, and the aid is being managed by the EC's EuropeAid Cooperation Office. It is being distributed to Zimbabwean households by the World Food Programme, in collaboration with local authorities and NGOs.

The €2 million is being provided through the European Commission's Humanitarian Aid Office (ECHO), under Mr Poul Nielson, EU Commissioner for Development Cooperation and Humanitarian Aid. It will be distributed via UNICEF and NGOs, to young children and farm workers adversely affected by the land resettlement programme.

Between 4 and 6 million Zimbabweans (about half the population) are now in urgent need of food aid.
http://www.oneworld.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi?root=129&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eeuropa%2Eeu%2Eint%2Fcomm%2F development%2Fnews%2Fnews%5Fen%2Ehtm%232.It sounds very impressive, were it not that the larger of both contributions amounts to 1.3 to 2 kilogram maize pro person in need. And now compare it to allocations for Arafat's car collection etc. Chris Patten could certainly do better with his pocket money.

All of this not exactly front-page news, it's not Palestinians dying after all, just some 13 million Africans, and no way you can pin it on the Jews: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/05/30/africa.famine/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/06/11/famine.charity/index.html

Worse still, the EU apparently contributed to the famine in case of Malawi:
http://www.jubileeplus.org/worldnews/africa/malawi040702.htm
http://www.jubileeplus.org/opinion/debt040702.htm

Crazy...

[cerulean]

The IMF and the World Bank are always protested against at anti-globalization rallies, maybe with good reason. On the other hand, Jubilee Plus' idea to just cancel third-world debt seems naive, although it might be a good idea for all I know.

At this point I'm just very skeptical of the fact that I most often I can read anti-IMF and anti-Israel articles together on the same web site, by authors with the same agenda. This doesn't apply to Jubilee Plus, which isn't involved with the topic of Israel so far as I know.

One author that I have found so far that seems to tackle globalization issues, the Bush family, the Saudi regime, and other topics, without so far also invoking an anti-Israel agenda is Greg Palast, at

http://www.gregpalast.com/

[Mediocrates]

As opposed to flat out aid, the problem for Malawi and other countries is debt that is expected to be repaid. In its largesse the EU/UN contingent gives aid to Arafat with few strings attached and never an expectation that it is anything other than aid, eg. not a loan.

The problem for Malawi etc. is that the IMF structures their aid as loans; they're a bank that's what they do. So in exchange for the loans, the IMF extracts concessions for the country to repay the loan. What typically has to happen is they have to change their economy to an export based cash economy.

For example subsistance farming is converted to cash crop farming. Or in the case of Malawi they have to sell what little they have for cash to cover the loan.

All short term goals.

So instead of investing in education or health care or population control or nutrition these countries are forced to barter their future for cash. A more efficient scheme would be to offload the loans to a third party or parties with a much longer investment horizon, say 40 years like a large government bond issue.

This way the countries would have more flexibility to develop their economies in a sustainable fashion and have less debt service year to year in the early years. Eventually they would have to pay back the loans and compounding being what it is would be a much larger aggregate number over time but if they're smart they'll be in a better position long term.

It also has to be coupled with a lend lease program to acquire the infrastructure and tools with which to develop economically.

[IsraelAdvocate]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
But in the rest of the world, it is pretty obvious that Israel does not have a "problem" with the world.

What do you mean with the rest of the world. There are plenty of protestors in Russia, South Africa, South America, Canada ... I hope you realise that.

Ohh, and you may find the EU backwards, I don't care (IMHO I'd rather be backward than barbaric), but it's actually only Israel who thinks that way. The US knows that the EU is their biggest trade partner, and doesn't want to affect their bileteral relations with it. Israel is not of any economic importance for the US (at least not compared to EU, Saudi Arabia), it's just a political/military ally in the middle east. Israel is lucky the US still sympathises with them, without US, they wouldn't survive a week.



Nonsense!
Israel fought its war of independence without any real military help from the United States. Much of the arms used in 1948 were thier own stockpile. Israel did, however, manage to beat back several arab countries.

Now, Mr. Belgium, with regard to your statement "without the US they wouldn't survive a week." consider this -

During WWII, Germany crossed into Belgium rapidly, and succeeded in conquering France. That feet was accomplished within hours, not weeks. I would like to see Belgium live side by side with Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

Your country would not last any longer than Kuwait did against Iraq. How do I know? Look at your record . Hitler made Belgium a colony within hours. You have not fought a war in decades.
You continue to benefit from the long term effects of the Marshall Plan, and yet criticise others as being dependent on the US.

Most importantly, you criticise us without having lived in a country that has frequently to deal with suicide terrorism. I would like to see you in Israel for five minutes. You would not feel safe walking the streets. How would you like a similar situation in Belgium?

[Vic]

Originally posted by IsraelAdvocate
You would not feel safe walking the streets. How would you like a similar situation in Belgium? Click! http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1045

[Mediocrates]

The US was not an arms supplier to Israel until 1957 and nothing of much volume or import until the Kennedy administration. It was during the Nixon administration AFTER 1967 that the US became the main arms supplier for Israel.

In the 50's much materiel came from Czechoslovakia but Stalin cut it off when it became clear that Israel would not become another Soviet state. After 1953 Israel acquired arms from France, UK, whereever it could. Remember that Dimona was built by the French in late 50's-early 60's and Israel's entire nuclear weapons program was jump started by the French-English as payment for support during the Suez War - '56. France was already on an indenpendent path and it would only a few more years before De Gaulle pulled out of NATO with his Force Frappe.

[cerulean]

This is sort of a "poor-us" type article, discussing the difficulties that Palestinians will have if the US makes aid contingent on reforms. In addition, the Palestinians' Arab brother countries are not stepping up to the plate with all of the donations they have promised.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Israel-Aid-Blockade.html
...
Since the Palestinian Authority was created in 1994, it has been dangerously dependent on handouts. Until 2000, the Palestinian government and various non-governmental organizations received some $500 million a year in foreign aid -- which then amounted to perhaps an eighth of their entire economy and a third of their state budget.

That dependance increased during the 21 months of violence: The economy has shrunk dramatically, while aid from the United States, Europe and Arab nations in 2001 went up to about $900 million.
...

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
That dependance increased during the 21 months of violence: The economy has shrunk dramatically, while aid from the United States, Europe and Arab nations in 2001 went up to about $900 million.[/FONT]
... So it pays, depending on how they define the goals :mad:

Somewhat off-topic, I've just read about another $900:

Israel's trade deficit tops $900 million
By Moti Bassok, Ha'aretz Correspondent
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=186182&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

Maybe it would make great sense simply to stop the aid, since it can easily be viewed as an encouragement to the Palestinians to continue the conflict. Self-pity always leads to decline of ethic standards, for one. Maybe the Palestinians need to be shocked out of it. Even better, offer massive financial support to Israel, mostly for the social sector and security, very openly. What do you all think?

[minusthejihad]

I'm down with that suggestion. I have not been able to understand how the PA can keep receiving money (especially from Israel) with all the violence and chaos it creates. Terrorism has become their national export and fear and intimidation has become its infrastructure. Israel, America, and the rest of the First World consistently gets suckered into taking care of the Palestinians (especially the weasels at the top), even though absolutely no attempts have been made by the Palestinians to modernize or even create a suitable economy and life for their own people.

Perhaps America and Israel should look into acting as banks, rather than political institutions with regards to the Palestinian Authority, such as: "We've given you so and so millions of dollars in aid. Well times are tough here as well, and we're looking for our return on investment. What do you mean you need more money? That's it, we'll feed your people for you, since you haven't a clue how to do it yourself."

Obviously, Israel can do more to stop Terrorism than the PA itself, so chances are, Israel could make the lifes of Palestinians better (like they always have until extremism takes over), including helping them develop some methods to feed themselves and create things, rather than destroy them.

[Mediocrates]

If they kill children they won't be worried about paying back a loan especially when they can whip out that Islamic law forbidding interest on loans. They can simply claim their religion prohibits them from taking any action. Whachya gonna do?

I think the UN/EU should propose a matching grants program. We put up a dollar the Arab states put up a dollar. Additional funding over those levels should be gathered from long term capital loans via Arab countries as brokers, underwriters or intermediaries & bond issuances. They could raise substantial funding from a Palistinian Bond Issue just like the Israelis or your local government. You mean to tell me all the angry Arab brethren in Europe and the US can't cough up a few hundred bucks in ACTUAL support?

It is probably impossible to construct a scenario where Arab countries take equity positions in Palistinian capital improvments in exchange for debt. Arab countries simply don't build things or construct factories that build things that can be purchased or consumed. The entire non oil directed capital output of the Arab oil economies is about the same as Finland. But it probably is feasible to have foreign partners build an infrastructure with the Palistinians financed by Arab capital.

And before all you poor-me naysayers start carping about the amount - I'm talking about 20-40 billion dollars over a 10 year period. That's probably the housekeeping money for the Saud family.

[Vic]

My main point is that the Palestinians should be (1) encouraged to fend for themselves, and (2) not given the impression that they will recieve assistance from the rest of the world no matter what. Yes, they do carry collective responsibility for the flourishing terrorism - to the same degree the Germans carried collective responsibility for Nazism. In both cases it wasn't 100% of the populations supporting it.

Even without an all-out war - could a carrot-and-stick policy (making external financial aid conditional on the absence of terror acts over a certain period of time, participation in the fight against terrorism or at least non-obstruction of it, etc.) bring positive results?

[cerulean]

http://www.nypost.com/commentary/52439.htm
‘CORRUPT’ YASSER’S
$11B STASH

By URI DAN
July 14, 2002 -- JERUSALEM.
...
One Israeli, who can’t be named, says he regrets how he once promoted Arafat as a "partner for peace," and told The Post:

"Some of Arafat’s people revealed to me that they hate him - but they are afraid of him. They claim he is corrupt and controls assets estimated at $11 billion in three different accounts."

One of the accounts is run by Arafat’s closest financial adviser, Mohammed Rashid, The Post has learned.
[...]
My source said that in one bitter discussion, Palestinian Council members demanded to know where the $11 billion was hidden.

The PLO chairman’s reply was sardonic:

"If you kill me, you’ll never get it," he said. "It’s my insurance policy."

But how did his secret stash reach $11 billion? Here’s the answer.

For years Arafat has been receiving gigantic payments from Saudi Arabia, the Persian Gulf oil sheikdoms and Iraq to finance the PLO.
...
=====

11 billion dollars, if used to build infrastructure, would go a very long way, needless to say.

Note that Peres just recently had a meeting in Copenhagen with Rashid.

[cerulean]

Powell seeks approval of three-year plan to aid Palestinians
BARRY SCHWEID, AP Diplomatic Writer Tuesday, July 16, 2002
(07-16) 10:03 PDT (AP) --

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2002/07/16/national0840EDT0536.DTL

===
It does sound like the US is making efforts not to have its money go directly to the Palestinian Authority, however, unlike the EU.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
It does sound like the US is making efforts not to have its money go directly to the Palestinian Authority, however, unlike the EU. It sounds like he is going to finance it over the UN (UNRWA?).
The Bush administration would like to skirt the Palestinian Authority, which it suspects of corruption, and already is channeling about $142 million a year in assistance through the United Nations, the Red Cross and other private groups. In April, on a trip to the region, Powell pledged an additional $30 million in aid.

The Europeans provide about $9 million a year in assistance. Unlike U.S. aid, it goes directly to the Palestinian Authority.

Powell hopes future European contributions can be made directly to the people or at least in ways that provide controls against skimming. Approval of the plan is expected, a U.S. official said Monday, speaking on condition of anonymity.

In preliminary moves, Assistant Secretary of State William Burns has set up an international task force on reform with U.N., Russian and European Union officials. A deputy, Elizabeth Cheney, followed up last week in London, talking with officials from Norway, Japan, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

Through the U.S. Agency for International Development, the United States provides $62 million in aid for health care, water system repairs and emergency food. Another $80 million is contributed annually to the U.N. Relief Works Agency.
Shame on the terror-supporting Americans! :p

Here is a better idea on what to spend it on: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=16623#post16623

And here is an equally good one: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=15710#post15710

[cerulean]

Bush's non-plan to oust Arafat.
Money Order
by Janine Zacharia
Post date 07.15.02 | Issue date 07.22.02

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020722&s=zacharia072202

===
This article says the US looks to be trying to get rid of Arafat, but it won't happen, because Europe is controlling the aid pursestrings.

[Vic]

The most effcient way the US could pressure Palestinians is IMO reduce the pressure on Israel, maybe come up with some humanitarian support too - a great psychological measure for both sides.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Europeans. The EU leadership has other concerns. Don't forget that the EU is mostly about money. Politics, especially international politics, are are decorative prestigeous pasttime for it. I don't see them raise a finger for Arafat, other than deliver impressive speeches. Maybe one shouldn't cling to European rhetoric too much. Most of it is cheap bullying.

Try more genuine chuzpe. If Arafat should be rid of, go on and do it. Don't wait for "the Europeans" to bow their heads in shame over what they have done to the Jews, realize that they have no right to criticize Israel, that they are profoundly immoral, ignoble and so on. They take great joy in not obliging. But they don't really care. Just malicious fun at the cost of a psychologically much too vulnerable Israel. Europeans respect power, remeber Churchill's (apparently apocryphal) statement about "the Hun", whom you have either at your feet or at your throat? Same goes for the rest of the continent and some well-known islands.

[Vic]

A change ahead?
Anyway, an interesting background for the controversy over the aid to Palestinians:


U.K. slams EU aid policy
By Gareth Harding
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020729-101413-1460r BRUSSELS, Belgium, July 29 (UPI) -- British Development Minister Clare Short on Monday launched a stinging attack on the EU's $27 billion-a-year aid policy, describing it as too slow, too complex and too bureaucratic.

Writing in the Guardian newspaper, Short said: "As the world's largest aid donor, the European Union could be making a huge contribution to the international fight against poverty. Unfortunately, its development program is an embarrassment."

Short's main gripe is that the bulk of Europe's aid is channeled to average poor states such as Egypt, Ukraine and Morocco rather than to the 49 least developed countries.

[...]

Maintaining stability in the Mediterranean basin and preparing central and eastern European states for entry into the 15-member bloc have become more urgent goals than feeding the world's poorest people, said Short.

The outspoken aid minister is also disdainful of how the EU's development budget is administered in Brussels. Procedures are "too slow and complex," legislation is "Byzantine" and the political direction set by member states and the European Parliament is "confusing." She wrote.

[...]

Short says Britain should "renationalize" its aid program and "opt out" of EU development policy-making.

Although there is little chance of this happening -- EU governments cannot unilaterally decide how the bloc spends its budget -- Short's diatribe is a severe embarrassment for the European Union just weeks before a major U.N. development summit in Johannesburg, South Africa.

The EU takes great pride in its position as the world's largest donor of development aid and has championed itself as the "savior" of developing countries in world trade and environment talks.

European Commission spokesman Michael Curtis told United Press International that much of Short's criticism was "disingenuous" and did not take account of the recent changes made to the EU's development policy.

Curtis also accused Short of hypocrisy for bad-mouthing policies she has signed up to as one of the EU's 15 development ministers.

"You'd think she sits on another body," said Curtis. "It is the Council of Ministers that instructs us to pay more money to the Balkans, not the commission," he added.The original article by Clare Short:

Reform of EU aid programme is overdue
Clare Short
Monday July 29, 2002
The Guardian
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,9061,764916,00.html

And:Clare Short today warns Brussels she is considering seizing back control of Britain's £700m contribution to Europe's international aid budget, in protest at the squandering of taxpayers' money on wasteful, politically driven projects.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,9061,764762,00.html

[tandem]

hardly surprising considering the europeans have always been pro-arab and eager to deny israel its right for self-defence

at least the US, unlike the EU, has some common sense to know that if US aid will be given directly to arafat, for sure the money would be used to finance terror attacks against israel

[Vic]

Here is an English translation of the follow-up article:

Unyielding Faith
(sequel to "Arafat Bombs, Europe Pays")
translated from Die Zeit 34/2002 August 15, 2002
by Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff
http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/arafatbombs2.html

[observer]

Belg'm - Why is Israel a democracy? A nation that controls the voting rights of people in the region, will not allow the Palestinian population to outnumber the jewish population cannot be considered a democracy. Democracy means that everyone has voting rights. Everyone is treated equally. Israel will not permit the Palestinians to vote because a combination of Palestinian and Arabs in the region would shortly outnumber the Jews in Israel.

Israel cannot permit non Jews equal rights. If Israel ever gives non Jews equal rights, Israel would cease to be a Jewish State. Why does this make Israel a democracy?

As to EU funding of the Palestinians - why does it matter? Could it be that there is a fear in Israel that there are still Europeans who hate Jews? If that is a legitimate fear, then Israel has deeper concerns other than the Palestinians. This would be problematic for the Israelis in the future.

The good ole US of A is a democracy. Here we do not fear immigrant populations. If someday, some immigrant population outnumbers the native population, then so be it. Freedom and diversity are our greatest assets.