Forum on peace

[Belgium@EU]

I find mr. Powels initiative to start an open forum on the middle east a step towards a better understanding between the supporters of Israel and the PA. The forum will be organised by the "Quartert": the US, EU, Russian Federation and the UN.

Our European ministers were very pleased with the offer from the US. The EU, the UN and Russia were getting frustrated because they were not envolved into any peace talks, though they are the ones who could help to get an end to this conflict.


:cool: a step towards peace :confused:

[gregg]

Or a step back, Russia give me a break I lived in Russia, did anyone look at what their doing to Checnya well you need to admit they got the anti terrorist Idea right. After a terrorist blew up an aparatment building Russia destroyed the entire block of apartment houses where the terrorist lived, and guess what no more terrorists come from Chechnya

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Our European ministers were very pleased with the offer from the US. The EU, the UN and Russia were getting frustrated because they were not envolved into any peace talks, though they are the ones who could help to get an end to this conflict.
The reason they tried for decades to be involved in a peace process and failed is because they are biased.

The European vision of "peace" involves chopping up Israel into little pieces, with an 8 mile strip dividing the country and then arming the Arabs to the teeth so that the Arabs will be able to destroy Israel more conveniently. And to top it off, the EU would like to support the Palestinian plan of injecting a few million Arab enemies into the heart of Israel under the guise of a "right of return."

That's why for all this time, the EU has not been able to be an honest broker in the Mideast conflict.

And while I welcome a serious peace initiative, I don't believe that EU involvement will be helpful and I highly doubt that the conference will succeed. It already lacks the crucial elements for success:

1. A Palestinian abandonment of terrorism on a national and cultural level.

2. A substitute for Arafat.

That's why it is doomed to fail even before it started.

[ibrodsky]

Another great column by George Will. He points out that Europe has managed to revive anti-semitism even though the Nazis basically succeeded in ridding Europe of Jews.

The problem I have with such peace initiatives, however, is not just that Europe has proved incapable of being an honest broker. The problem I have is that such initiatives simply don't work.

In order to start a peace process, these initiatives assume both parties are equally wrong. Thus, in the best case, each side is supposed to make equal compromises.

But the two parties aren't equally wrong. The Arabs have been trying to destroy Israel since (really) before it was founded. Israel captured the WB and Gaza in self defense. Israel is willing to give most of the WB and Gaza back if the Arabs truly decide in favor of peace and normal relations.

Even today, most of the Arab world refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist. Saudi Arabia is saying that if Israel gives back land it was forced to capture in self-defense and permits a large number of Arabs to settle inside Israel that the Arabs will recognize Israel and establish normal relations.

How can you have a sincere peace process on this basis? First, the aggressor insists that the victim must renounce its right to self-defense. This is just a gambit designed to make it look like Israel acknowledges that it, and not the Arabs, is the aggressor.

Second, the "right of return" has turned into what most fair observers know is a scam. The "refugees" have grown beyond proportion and the bulk are people who never lived on land that is now Israel. If Arabs who never lived in Israel have the "right to return" based on descent, then why don't Jews have the "right to return" to the WB and Gaza based on descent? Of course, they demand a Jew-free WB and Gaza...

Sorry, Europe. You can't be trusted to broker peace, and the process is flawed.

There won't be peace until either the Arabs truly renounce terror and put an end to it (highly unlikely) -- or Israel puts an end to it for them.

[thrud]

This is the George Will article.

[L@mplighterM]

I personally believe that peace could have been a reality in the region a long time ago the western world had presented a united front against the Palestinians.

Strict conditions should have been set in order for them to receive foreign aid.

Incitement to commit violence against Israel should be forbidden in any form.

There should have been a team of military set up to establish just exactly where the 1948 borders need to be expanded to establish a secure Israel.

Now any cross border conflicts or acts of terrorism since 1948 has to be taken into account to established how much land (if any) should be returned.

[Metal_Girl]

I think (and this is just my opinion guys), that both sides must just sit together, and go out for a barbecue! :) I mean, we should put our differences aside, and work for the betterment of all. Both sides live in a small area, and it would be good for everyone and their children, and so on.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Metal_Girl
I think (and this is just my opinion guys), that both sides must just sit together, and go out for a barbecue! :) I mean, we should put our differences aside, and work for the betterment of all. Both sides live in a small area, and it would be good for everyone and their children, and so on.

Are you going to supply the meat?

[Moon]

I think (and this is just my opinion guys), that both sides must just sit together, and go out for a barbecue!Since you mention it... maybe that's why Arafat left Camp David with a bad look on his face: he was expecting a barbecue! :rolleyes:
Anyway, he got the barbecue he wanted.

[Metal_Girl]

Oh comon you guys -

Lamplight, I cant cook! But I will supply the chicken :)
But really, we have to come together - I care about all human beings, and we have to set our differences aside. This is the only way. and moon, I was not talking about arafat - most of politicians are not truthful anyway......but I mean the people are the ones we should care about. Ordinary families, etc.

-Leila

[Mediocrates]

Special Dispatch - Reform in the Arab and Muslim World
May 10, 2002: No. 377
An Arab Diplomat on the Need to Replace Jihad With Social Development

In an article written by "an Arab diplomat who chose to reveal his real name," - Abu Ahmad Mustafa called upon the Arab world to replace Jihad with social development. The article, titled "When Will the Arabs Learn the Lesson Even Once," appeared recently in the Saudi-owned London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat. The following are excerpts from the article:

"Now, after the fog has begun to lift above the skies of the Palestinian Authority, and after the second Intifada has ended, at such a terrible price, the Arabs must try - at least once - to grasp the lesson that they have been taught yet again…"

"First, we must admit that the ones who pushed the children into the second Intifada had no defined political goal that they sought to achieve and that would benefit the Palestinian people… It became clear, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the ones who planned it wanted to thwart any initiative that President Arafat sought to promote. They wanted to make him simultaneously their prisoner and Israel's prisoner…"

"Many questions have raced around my mind since the demonstrations began to throng the streets of the Arab capitals, reminiscent of the giant demonstrations to defend the honor of the nation of Comrade Saddam."

"Several Arab countries demonstrated spontaneously. I heard and learned that committees consisting of both government and opposition party members were established to organize the demonstrations. In the first ranks of demonstrators stood some top officials of Arab countries, who sought to neutralize [the nationalist elements] that claimed the governments are lagging behind the street. At this point, I ask: Why don't they demonstrate to protest against the deficient (or nonexistent) basic services in their countries? [These] countries have no health, education, or services, and buckle under the poverty line… but all are preoccupied with the Palestine issue, and no voice rises above the voice of battle there! Do you think these officials would participate in demonstrations of this kind if the citizens decided to hold them?"

"Furthermore, why do they push the citizens to contribute from their own money? Here too stand top officials, contributing as much as they wish… Again I ask: Why don't they instruct their citizens with regard to the importance of contributing to improve education, health, and social services in their countries?!"

"What would happen if every Arab country had, since 1948, turned its attention to building itself from within, without making Palestine its main issue? Wouldn't this be better than wasting money on armies and equipping them so that we can listen to their military marches every so often? What would happen if every Arab country focused on educating its citizens, and on improving their physical and emotional health and cultural level?! Wouldn't this have made the battle with Israel into a cultural battle instead of us sinking into religious or military battles?!"

"Moreover, I am amazed at the clerics who raise a hue and cry about Jihad against Israel, engage in conflict, and compete with each other in issuing religious rulings on suicide [attacks] - but do not encourage the citizens to wage spiritual Jihad. Wouldn't this be more useful to the [Arab] nation, which since the turn of the century has been subject to Nakba [catastrophe] by its own military, and now marches towards a second Nakba by its scientists - I refer, of course, to the scientists of religion, and not the scientists of physics, natural science, health, or engineering…" 1

1 Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), May 8, 2002.


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[Batman]

The United Nations must be held accountable. The world cannot be silent and continue to let this organization assume a position of world leadership, using our tax money ($11 billion annually by US !) to support it, with its center location in New York City, while continually declaring a political war against Israel and supporting terror against Israel.

After the most recent MASSACRE in Rishon Letzion which killed 16 people and wounded 60, the U.N. had the audacity to CONDEMN ISRAEL the very next day. The vote was 74-4 with 54 abstentions. There were no votes condemning Palestinian terrorism.

Why they still have not called an emergency "security council" meeting about the MASSACRE in Israel? Didn't they call several such meetings to help their Palestinian terrorists? In fact, we want to know WHY there has never been an emergency meeting after Jews have been massacred by the friends of the U.N.? While on the topic, we don't recall Mr. Annan calling for an emergency meeting after 9/11. Doesn't the U.S. taxpayer give $11 billion to this corrupt organization annually?

Until the U.N. calls an emergency meeting of the security council to condemn the MASSACRE of Jews, VOTES on it with an unconditional resolution, and sends a team to inquire how these massacres took place and what human rights violations were committed by the PA, it is violating all that it is supposed to stand for. And, by the way, why hasn't anyone heard from the U.N. Mideast "peace envoy", Terje Larsen, about this?

Confronted with evidence of illegal Palestinian mines, mortars and missiles, no U.N. official questioned how it was that bomb factories could exist in U.N.-managed refugee camps. Either the U.N. officials were unaware of the bomb factories -- a fact that would suggest utter incompetence -- or more likely, the U.N. employees simply turned a blind eye.

If the United Nations is to be reflecting the values of peace, justice and unity, we must gain momentum and grow in numbers to reflect our disgust with the present betrayal of these common human values.

URGE THE UN TO INVESTIGATE PALESTINIAN TERROR IMMEDIATELY (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/303588867 )
Call Fred and his staff and demand to know what criminal logic was behind this. Yes, Annan issued some tepid and banal "condemnation" for the media, but frankly, it just does not cut it. Annan only minces words when Jewish lives are taken, but he is very graphic when condemning Israel.
United Nations: - Fred Ekherd (Annan's spokesman) PH# 212-963-5128 FAX# 212-963-7055 EMAIL: inquiries@un.org

[Skogan]

Recently I was reading a website made by Iranian student's demonstrating against their government. There were photo's of a recent protest, and in one of the photo's a student held up a sign that translated into "Be less concerned about palistinians and more concerned about us."

Skogan

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I personally believe that peace could have been a reality in the region a long time ago the western world had presented a united front against the Palestinians.




United front agianst the Palestinians? Where did you get this from. And please do not talk anymore about the west. It's really the US and not Europe who would have come up with such an idea.

A united front against the Palestinians is just complete BS. It reminds me of a guy who was quite famous here in Europe in the 1930's and 40's ... he also tried to unite his people against Gypsy's, Gay's, the Handicapped and a religion which he didn't like so much ... he did some bad things. But I can't think of his name anymore. :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Morpheus



United front agianst the Palestinians? Where did you get this from. And please do not talk anymore about the west. It's really the US and not Europe who would have come up with such an idea. A united front against the Palestinians is just complete BS.

OK then, a united front against the formation of the Egyptian lead United Arab Command in the early 60's - instead of letting it disintegrate into individual agendas lead by the the Ba'athist Syrians who advocated Palestinian violence as early as 1963 and who set the stage for PLO lead incursions into Gallilee and the Golan region in order to destabilize it.

A united front against the anarchy in the region that gave rise to 16 different military leaders in Iraq in 16 years, a Jordanian king's assassination by a Palestinian, a Lebanese PM assassinated by either Lebanese or Syrian intelligence agents, an Egyptian coup and a civil war in Lebanon and Jordan, each (in the 50's-60's not the recent incarnations).

[L@mplighterM]

Bold by Morpeous:


United front agianst the Palestinians? Where did you get this from. And please do not talk anymore about the west. It's really the US and not Europe who would have come up with such an idea.

There’s more support in the west for Israel than you realize unfortunately most people aren’t able to clue in to the fact that they are supporting Israel.

Think about that for a while.

I hate to disillusion you but in fact there’s even support for Israel in Europe as a matter of fact most governments in the EU support Israel.

Think about that.

What is true is that NATO should be down in the ME showing the Palestinians a thing or two.

[Vic]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I hate to disillusion you but in fact there’s even support for Israel in Europe as a matter of fact most governments in the EU support Israel.
Do they?

[L@mplighterM]

Think about it for a little while.

Here's a clue.


Define the enemy.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Vic

Do they?

For the most part people are clued out in that they believe that there’s no bond between the various Islamic Terrorist Groups. Initially there was widespread support for the war in Afghanistan where NATO was supporting the US in its fight against the Taliban and al Qaeda. Admittedly the support has waned somewhat.


Whether it’s:

Islamic Jihad in Egypt, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin in the Pakistani-occupied portion of Kashmir, Hezbollah, HAMAS, Palestine Islamic Jihad or others they are one of the same.

So when NATO sent forces to kill terrorists in Afghanistan they were in my opinion helping Israel. The death of even one member of the above group helps Israel.

Hopefully NATO will engage in a battle with Iraq sometime in the future and it will further help Israel.

[Mediocrates]

NATO seems to be searching for a purpose in life. Who is the enemy? What is NATO's strategic purpose? It would seem to be little more than an extension of token participation in other peoples problems. The chain of command is fragmented. Everything is a politically agendized problem and everyone wants to be in charge.

The US is always charged with unilateralism. But that doesn't seems any worse than anarchy.

Did you know that the US spends more on defence than every other country on earth combined? That's probably more significant to the existence of NATO than any other factor. Because it would appear that NATO therefore exists solely as a customer of each countries' private and quasi nationalized defence industries. A vast pork barrel fueled by employment numbers and economics and driven by a vague political agenda difficult to explain let alone execute and guaranteed to derive no solid results or change in conditions on the ground.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM




Hopefully NATO will engage in a battle with Iraq sometime in the future and it will further help Israel.


NATO is just a document signed by 19 countries, it is no army. Each country has to send in troops and air/sea support. Europe is not eager to get in any conflict with Iraq, and since Iraq is not attacking US at this moment, NATO-facilities may not be used therefor. Even the Britons, US-closest ally in Europe, have mixed feelings towards a military campaign against Iraq.

In Afghanistan, the Yanks delivered the most air support, while the Euro's are focussing on the dirty work on the ground, policing the streets of kabul ...

[Vic]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Islamic Jihad in Egypt, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin in the Pakistani-occupied portion of Kashmir, Hezbollah, HAMAS, Palestine Islamic Jihad or others they are one of the same.

So when NATO sent forces to kill terrorists in Afghanistan they were in my opinion helping Israel. The death of even one member of the above group helps Israel.

Hopefully NATO will engage in a battle with Iraq sometime in the future and it will further help Israel.
Indirectly, yes, but it is hardly the purpose. Still, the punchline here is more often than not: how much easier it would be to fight islamist terrorism without Israel being where it is and what it is.