France Steps Up Its Investments in Iran

[Oh Jerusalem]

France Steps Up Its Investments in Iran (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/23/business/worldbusiness/23iraninvest.html?pagewanted=print&position)
By BORZOU DARAGAHI

TEHRAN, Iran - Undeterred by Iran's pariah status in the United States and by the shortcomings of the country's commercial climate, French companies have been increasing their presence in the country in the last few years.

New Peugeots and Citroëns flood crowded highways and streets. French business people dine in the capital's restaurants and work on Persian Gulf oil platforms. Air France resumed flights to Tehran this month after a seven-year hiatus. And the carmaker Renault is about to make the first large-scale, long-term direct investment in the country by a French company since the 1979 revolution that toppled the pro-American Shah Reza Pahlavi.

"The French are eager to come to Iran," said Bernard Hourcade, a Paris-based Iran scholar who acts as a consultant to French companies considering doing business here. "It is the only major place in the Middle East to invest because the other countries are more or less in a revolutionary or prerevolutionary situation."

Though companies from Germany and the United Arab Emirates have a bigger presence in Iran, France is catching up.

French exports to Iran have nearly doubled in five years, totaling 2 billion euros ($2.4 billion) in 2003, according to the economic mission of the French embassy in Tehran. And the number of French-connected companies registered with the embassy - some of which are joint ventures and some representative offices - has risen from a handful several years ago to more than 40.

Among the French exports are luxury goods, for Iran's increasingly affluent middle class. If even a fraction of Iran's 68 million people are "rather prosperous," one Western diplomat said, that could exceed the total population of all the smaller, wealthier gulf kingdoms combined.

The Iranian business of Société Générale, one of a handful of French banks with small offices in Tehran, has grown roughly 20 percent a year in the last five years, according to Jean-Michel Meunier, the bank's Tehran chief.

Alcatel, the French telecommunications giant, recently signed multimillion-dollar contracts to provide high-speed Internet service in Iran as well as communications for offshore oil and gas platforms.

PSA Peugeot Citroën, under a licensing agreement, sells kits for several models, including the Peugeot 206, a sports car that has become a status symbol in Tehran's chic sections.

The Total Group, one of the world's largest energy concerns, has long been involved in Iran, a country with 9 percent of the world's oil reserves and as much as 18 percent of its natural gas reserves. This year, it formed a $2 billion venture with the government-owned National Iranian Oil Corporation and Petronas of Malaysia called Pars LNG, which aims to produce eight million metric tons of liquefied natural gas a year, equal to about 15 percent of current world output.

Total executives in Paris would not comment on Middle East operations. A spokeswoman said the company employed 242 people on its Iran projects.

But Total's buyback agreements with Iran, under which it builds plants and then is paid back and sent on its way as its operations produce energy, means it never owns anything long term in Iran. Peugeot employs only 15 people to oversee the assembly of its cars by local employees of the government-owned factories. Alcatel sells and installs equipment. Société Générale's business here is also limited, consisting mostly of setting up transfers and repatriating funds.

Far more ambitious is Renault's plan to begin making its low-budget Logan series cars here in 2006, eventually bringing hundreds of Western experts to Iran. Renault says it will initially spend 300 million euros ($363 million), and some people close to the deal say the company could lay out $700 million over the next several years. The initial outlay alone nearly equals the total foreign investment in Iran by French companies in 2002, the last year for which statistics were available from the French economics mission, up from zero in 1994.

Under the agreement, Renault owns 51 percent of the joint venture, Renault Pars, with the Automotive Industry Development Company, a concern owned by the country's two main, government-controlled carmakers, the Saipa Group and the Iran Khodro Industrial Group.

The car is coming on line just as the Iranians begin halting production of the clunky, fuel-guzzling Paykan, a knockoff of the 1960's British Hillman Hunter that dominates the domestic market.

"The Renault investment will encourage other companies to come," the Western diplomat said, adding that the company would bring along many subcontractors.

Executives for Renault, which is 15 percent owned by the French government, were not made available for comment.

Iran is among several developing countries, including Romania, where Renault is bolstering its presence.

"Four-fifths of the world's population don't yet have access to a car: these markets therefore have the highest potential for growth," Louis Schweitzer, Renault's chief executive, says on the company's Web site. According to Peugeot, Iran has 1 car for every 21 inhabitants, compared with 1 for every 12 in neighboring Turkey, another developing Muslim country.

The country produced 600,000 new cars in the fiscal year that ended March 20, up from 430,000 in the previous year. This year, the country is slated to produce nearly 900,000 cars.

Despite such potential, many Western companies doing business in Iran do so clandestinely, worried they will cross the United States, which has imposed strict sanctions on Iran since 1996. At least one major French company in Iran with significant United States operations has not registered with the French embassy. The front door to its office in Iran says simply, "French company."

While American officials have not said anything publicly about Renault, they did complain about Total's recent deal and said they would look at possible actions under the Iran-Libya Sanctions Act of 1996.

"We do not encourage investment in Iran's petroleum sector," said Richard A. Boucher, a State Department spokesman, according to an Associated Press report in February. "We have laws that affect our attitudes toward these investments. And we will have to look at those laws appropriately."

State Department officials did not respond to repeated requests for comment. But trade experts said they did not think the act, which allows for the imposition of penalties on foreign companies for certain large investments in Iran, had ever been invoked.

"As to whether the U.S. has actually sanctioned any firms for prohibited investments in Iran, there is not much of a track record,'' said Donald A. Weadon Jr., a Washington lawyer specializing in foreign trade sanctions. "But companies are investigated, and pressure is brought to deter investment."

And, he said, other sanctions and embargos are being imposed.

According to Mr. Hourcade, the consultant, the companies are mostly worried that they will have trouble running their businesses without access to products - like software or spare parts - made by American companies, which are barred from doing business with Iran.

An executive of a multinational with a big United States business said his company decided to open an office here in part to keep an eye on its competitors and not be totally clueless about Iran should Washington lift sanctions.

"So many companies are here, but they're keeping a very low profile and you can't figure out what they're doing here," he said, asking his name and his company's not be used.

Iran's business climate also poses formidable challenges, including a byzantine regulatory system and unorthodox accounting practices that sometimes have left companies wondering whether they will be able to repatriate any profits.

The country has worked hard to draw foreign investment, with officials vowing to remove red tape and saying that foreign investors now can establish a company in Iran and own 100 percent of it.

Still, one person involved in the Renault Pars deal said that problems had already begun. Though the company is nominally French-controlled, he said, the Iranian manufacturers can override Renault's decisions.

Western business leaders here also complain of a lack of demographic and marketing data. Half of the country's cars, for example, are registered in Tehran. But Peugeot - whose business in Iran is its third largest non-European operation, behind China and Brazil - found that many of those living along the cool, rainy Caspian coastline register their cars in the relatively warm, dry capital, to increase resale values.

And though the Peugeot 206 is selling, said Jacques Manlay, the Tehran representative for Peugeot, no one is sure why and to whom. "All I know," he said, "is that it's a car for the young lady in the north of Tehran."

[takeo]

good, we are helping to make Iran more affluent and westernised and making bucks at the same time, we are also stepping up our investments in Cuba.

The US economic blackmail won't help to make Iran more moderate, rather on the contrary. This kind of policy encourages isolation, destitution, poverty and extremism, the European approach on the other hand encouurages countries to become more open, more wealthy and more business-minded, which in turn will influence political decisionmaking and general mentality as well.

[Olivier]

Originally posted by takeo
good, we are helping to make Iran more affluent and westernised and making bucks at the same time, we are also stepping up our investments in Cuba.

The US economic blackmail won't help to make Iran more moderate, rather on the contrary. This kind of policy encourages isolation, destitution, poverty and extremism, the European approach on the other hand encouurages countries to become more open, more wealthy and more business-minded, which in turn will influence political decisionmaking and general mentality as well. Takeo is right. You don't get the iranian imams out of power by keeping the country in the middle ages with an embargo, even less the threat of the invasion. This way you are only boosting the imams.

I think you didn't learn anything from iraq. You are taking the same policy. These countries must change from the inside, and the very young population of iran is asking for change.

Embargos and Invasions are the worst #%$µ thing to do.

[takeo]

exactluy, young Iranians demand changes and look to MTV, but they still hate the Us mainly because of its aggressive policy which is directed against all Iranians not only against the mulahs.

And how much credibility can one loose condemning France because it trades in cars with Iran while your own country sold weapons to Iran when Ayatollah Khomeini was still in power and Iran was still a revolutionary center of the Islamic world...

I also wish to take the advantage to condemn the embargo against Cuba in the strongest possible terms. US is aiding and financing dictators all over the world but Cuba is harshly embargoed because... yes why exactly? perhaps their cigars are a danger to public health?

[Mediocrates]

You watch TV and you hate America, what's your excuse?

[Ahava]

Originally posted by takeo

I also wish to take the advantage to condemn the embargo against Cuba in the strongest possible terms.

Save your "strongest possible terms" for terrorists. :mad:

[takeo]

I don't hate the US, only the US-policy, it may sound as a cliché but it's true. And I think many people around the world think likewise, they all like holywood and "friends" and they all hate Bush and Rumsfeld, it's a phenomenon around the world from cuba over Africa and Europe to Asia...

Save your "strongest possible terms" for terrorists.


nope, hurting an economy and the wellbeing of a people on purpose is as bad as terrorism, actually it's economic terrorism but not less devastating for the population. and unfortunately Cuba doesn't have nukes or a large consumermarket as for example China so it's completely defenseless against so much evil force.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by takeo

nope, hurting an economy and the wellbeing of a people on purpose is as bad as terrorism, actually it's economic terrorism but not less devastating for the population. and unfortunately Cuba doesn't have nukes or a large consumermarket as for example China so it's completely defenseless against so much evil force.

You are serious aren't you?

[takeo]

yes I am, this embargo costs Cuba billions of dollars each year, which mean that standard of living remains low, what's more is that the us equally punishes foreign companies who invest in Cuba, which is clearly unacceptable and condamned even by the closest ally GB.

terrorists kill some people and terrorise the others, while embargo's harm a majority of people by taking away their economic means, which is like slowly killing. suppose you and your family suddenly ran out of money, your entire life will change and most likely worsen a lot.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by takeo
yes I am, this embargo costs Cuba billions of dollars each year, which mean that standard of living remains low, what's more is that the us equally punishes foreign companies who invest in Cuba, which is clearly unacceptable and condamned even by the closest ally GB.


I guess an Israel boycott would be fully justified though, according to you?


terrorists kill some people and terrorise the others, while embargo's harm a majority of people by taking away their economic means.

terrorists willfully blow people to pieces, their aim is to kill as much innocent people as possible. Embargos are to try to force a country to do something (or, more often, to refrain from something). There's no winning here: supporting corrupt countries makes them hypocrite and corrupt, embargo-ing them makes them terrorists. Nice logic.

By the way I think it's unbelievably arrogant what you're saying, who do you think you are condemning America? Oh they will shiver and shudder when they heard takeo's condemnation!!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Ahava
Save your "strongest possible terms" for terrorists. :mad:

There are no non American terrorists, didn't you hear?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Ahava
You are serious aren't you?

Of course he is. Don't you read? There are no Non American (or their Jew puppets...or masters I forget which) terrorists.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
There are no non American terrorists, didn't you hear?

According to Fronce there aren't I guess. I think it's too bad how many French posters confirm the stereotype of being anti-American. Please don't think all Europeans are!

[Mediocrates]

I think it's something in their water.... :rolleyes:

[Ahava]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think it's something in their water.... :rolleyes:

That must be it! When i was in Paris the water tasted like chloor (don't know the word in English?). Here the water is ok but still I always drink bottled water. SPA!
By the way, guess where I bought my USA- headscarf sort-of-thing? In Paris!

[Mira~]

Originally posted by takeo
good, we are helping to make Iran more affluent and westernised and making bucks at the same time, we are also stepping up our investments in Cuba.

The US economic blackmail won't help to make Iran more moderate, rather on the contrary. This kind of policy encourages isolation, destitution, poverty and extremism, the European approach on the other hand encouurages countries to become more open, more wealthy and more business-minded, which in turn will influence political decisionmaking and general mentality as well.

You have a point about economic sanctions. The Iraqi experience as well as North Korea illustrate your point pretty well. But the international community still needs to have access to non-military means in which to discipline rouge regimes. You can't just treat a country like Iran in a business as usual manner. Look, you can complain all you want about how messed up US foreign policy is when it came to sanctions in Iraq, but at least our government didn't stoop to the level of France and derive an economic benefit from the oil for food program. France also provided the Khartoum regime with military intelligence and both France and Germany provided helicopters that were used by the regime for ethnic cleansing.

Dominique de Villepin (French Foreign Minister) demanded along with the United States that Iran sign the additional protocols of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in 2003. Iran continues down the path towards nuclear proliferation. The EU was pressuring Iran to comply with the IAEA’s demands by linking the matter to EU’s trade relations with Iran, but France's policies are not in-line with the rest of the EU on that. So we see an inconsistent approach from Europre and an aggressive approach from the US, and Iran continues down the road towards nuclear capability and all the while they fund groups like Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

[Mediocrates]

Stay away from the Contrex. It's a diuretic.

-ja I went to the flea markets on the northside of Paris and sold my old NY State licence plates for a bunch of money. Odd people the French. They hate American popular culture but they're obsessed with it. Anything American - the kitchy-er the better, Velvet Elvis, the whole shebang.

[Mediocrates]

Takeoista policies only make sense if you don't want concrete things in exchange. As long as you accept the blackmail approach of the Mullahs while ignoring what they do regionally to foment violence and terrorism. You give them money open their markets regardless of what they do then there is zero incentive for them to change.

For example; why even worry about Iran's nuclear program and IRBM/ICBM programs. You could simply outfit them with a French nuclear aircraft carrier (they have 1, and the DeGaulle is plagued with design and operational problems including leathal radiation leakage). Otherwise whatever you sell or develop with them will simply result in then achieving their nuclear goals by other means.

Unless you actually engage in detente or something like it or at least acknowledge that potentially hostile enemies are not locked into your strategic goals then all you are doing is paying baksheesh.

[Mediocrates]

Of course they have to be able to deliver the goods too:

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2004/june/06_24_1.html

MOSCOW [MENL] -- Russia could lose lucrative nuclear contracts in wake of its failure to complete the Bushehr reactor project in Iran.

Russian analysts warned that Moscow's failure to meet its deadline for the completion of the Bushehr nuclear reactor pointed to the susceptibility of the government to U.S. pressure. They said that such a perception would scare off other countries from signing nuclear contracts with Russia.

Over the last few months, the analysts said, Russia failed to win a tender for the construction of two reactors in Finland. The analysts said the government in Helsinki concluded that Russia could not be counted on to keep any commitment to complete a nuclear project.

"The Iranian project is a good possibility for Russia to prove its capability in this field," Radzhab Safarov, director of the Center for Studying Modern Iran, said. "But it has been building one reactor for about nine years now which creates a certain image of the country. If the construction rates of the Bushehr nuclear power plant do not increase, Russia may lose other tenders as well."

[Semsem]

[The US economic blackmail won't help to make Iran more moderate, rather on the contrary. This kind of policy encourages isolation, destitution, poverty and extremism, <<

. France is helping a terrorist State that murdered 400 Jews in Argentina. Hope it won't bring France luck.

[Semsem]

I>> also wish to take the advantage to condemn the embargo against Cuba in the strongest possible terms. US is aiding and financing dictators all over the world but Cuba is harshly embargoed because... yes why exactly? perhaps their cigars are a danger to public health?<<

If yo were a Cuban forced to flee Cuba yuo would not make such insensitive statements. The majoruty of Cuban refugees in the US support the embargo.

[Semsem]

[ >>This way you are only boosting the imams.<<

No you French are boosting the Imams by supporting their economies.

>>I think you didn't learn anything from iraq. <<

I think you French learnt nothing since Petain. Stop your condescending arragant remarks.

[Semsem]

<<which is clearly unacceptable and condamned even by the closest ally GB.<<

So what? Screw GB. Screw France most of all.

[Semsem]

>>I don't hate the US, only the US-policy,>>

Bull. No difference.

<<. And I think many people around the world think likewise, they all like holywood and "friends" and they all hate Bush <<

Who the F cares what they think. Jerks. Anybody who HATES is a JERK.


<< it's a phenomenon around the world from cuba over Africa and Europe to Asia...<<

Yes the PRIMITIVES all HATE BUSH.

[Semsem]

guess an Israel boycott would be fully justified though, according to you?

Well said. Theses French who don't want to boycott Iran and Cuba would loooooove to boycott Israel.

[Olivier]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I went to the flea markets on the northside of Paris and sold my old NY State licence plates for a bunch of money. Odd people the French. They hate American popular culture but they're obsessed with it. Anything American - the kitchy-er the better, Velvet Elvis, the whole shebang. As a matter of fact, you could live the same kind of experience in the US.

Odd people the Americans. :D




About Cuba, I wish a more active anti-castro policy from Europe. Castro putting poets or writers in jail for years just because they oppose him. This is one of the things that are unacceptable. (Note I didn't yell 'Invade Cuba ;) )

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Semsem
[ >>This way you are only boosting the imams.<<

No you French are boosting the Imams by supporting their economies.

>>I think you didn't learn anything from iraq. <<

I think you French learnt nothing since Petain. Stop your condescending arragant remarks.
Why did it take so long for someone to respond with this most elementary trhuthful reply?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Olivier
As a matter of fact, you could live the same kind of experience in the US.

Odd people the Americans. :D




About Cuba, I wish a more active anti-castro policy from Europe. Castro putting poets or writers in jail for years just because they oppose him. This is one of the things that are unacceptable. (Note I didn't yell 'Invade Cuba ;) )


No not really, I can't think of any pop cultural things that are French. The closest you come is Algerian Rap music. See we recognize that it's kitsch.


Oh it's more than poets and writers. It's many teachers, civil servants, media people, the gays and just about anyone else who expresses an opinion about something. According to your model for national behavior its some kind of massive warcrime but as we know Good Marxist Revolutions don't commit crimes, only fat dumb white people do.

[Olivier]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Oh it's more than poets and writers. It's many teachers, civil servants, media people, the gays and just about anyone else who expresses an opinion about something. yeah

[Mediocrates]

What an odd sig. Iraqis prisoners are now Jesus. And the dogs I suspect are the Christ killing Jews.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
What an odd sig. Iraqis prisoners are now Jesus. And the dogs I suspect are the Christ killing Jews.
How about my sig's bottom line? :D

[Mediocrates]

Another reason why europe is all talk and no action vis a vis Cuba

http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=9&aid=16723

(hint: Cuba is a major sugar producer)

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
What an odd sig. Iraqis prisoners are now Jesus. And the dogs I suspect are the Christ killing Jews.

Arabs fear dogs, especialy black dogs. They believe that if a dog will touch them, they'll go to hell.

I have 3 dogs, two of them black. Pets, do make one a better person, in most cases. (See: Birds man of Alkatraz).

[Olivier]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
What an odd sig. Iraqis prisoners are now Jesus. And the dogs I suspect are the Christ killing Jews. yep i just wrote it on an inspiration.

Any improvement suggestion ? (serious I mean, and to convey this strange feeling I have when looking at this image)

Anyway I'll change my sig if you find it too offensive.


// edit ahava was wondering why I did not put Gilgamesh on ignore. He indeed is a bad person.
But I only put serious insulters on ignore, not just the posters I disagree with.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Arabs fear dogs, especialy black dogs. They believe that if a dog will touch them, they'll go to hell.

I have 3 dogs, two of them black. Pets, do make one a better person, in most cases. (See: Birds man of Alkatraz).

Do they make you a better person, really? :p I bet you use your dogs to scare Arabs away, or just to bug them.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Ahava
Do they make you a better person, really? :p I bet you use your dogs to scare Arabs away, or just to bug them.

I have a huge black great dane dog, it scares people of all nationalities away...

[Binyamin]

Originally posted by Olivier
yep i just wrote it on an inspiration.

Any improvement suggestion ? (serious I mean, and to convey this strange feeling I have when looking at this image) Try "Even the devil doesn't deserve this."

[Olivier]

Originally posted by Binyamin
Try "Even the devil doesn't deserve this." seems nice. But he's not the devil, it's just an iraqi picked up in the streets I guess. I do not want to imply the tortured men are guilty :o

[Mediocrates]

Of course not. In fact in the topsy turvy world of Olistan all innocent people are behind bars and all criminals are out prowling the streets. It's the law.

[SteveMetch]

Go right ahead France, you supply the targets we’ll bring the weapons. I don’t know why anybody buys your junk.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by Olivier
yep i just wrote it on an inspiration.

Any improvement suggestion ? (serious I mean, and to convey this strange feeling I have when looking at this image)

Anyway I'll change my sig if you find it too offensive.


// edit ahava was wondering why I did not put Gilgamesh on ignore. He indeed is a bad person.
But I only put serious insulters on ignore, not just the posters I disagree with.

I was wondering, you moron. At least learn to read you frothy Jimmyhat

[minusthejihad]

I think the Dog is Christ and the Devil naturally is a Frenchman licking the inner thigh of an Iraqi prisoner. But I'm just a man.

[Mediocrates]

My bad - you have to click to image 4 with the neocrucifiction image. Now I get it - to Mr. Olivier, Jesus is covered with feces and we are the Romans.

Or it's a sexual fetish - like hentai scat porn. I don't know which.

[Semsem]

France just told Iran it is OK to pursue their nuclear reactor! Jerusalem Post article by Carolyn Glick.

[Semsem]

[Calling an Arab a dog is the biggest insult. The word in arabic is Kalb.

[takeo]

ahava and medio, I don't want to interrupt your cosy tête-à-tête, nice to see you found a common ennemy in France.



I guess an Israel boycott would be fully justified though, according to you?

I'm not so sure, it would most likely also increase poverty and extremism in Israel and Palestine alike, however a weapons embargo would be justified as long as israel occupies the Westbank and Gaza.



terrorists willfully blow people to pieces, their aim is to kill as much innocent people as possible. Embargos are to try to force a country to do something (or, more often, to refrain from something). There's no winning here: supporting corrupt countries makes them hypocrite and corrupt, embargo-ing them makes them terrorists. Nice logic.

there's a difference between supporting countries and trading with them, YOU are supporting Saoudi Arabia with weapons and logistic aid, wE are trading in cars with Iran.
Embargo's are not the right way to force a country, it has never worked in the past and only resulted in poverty, destabilisation and more extremism. And by the way embargo's make countries MORE corrupted as well, since people have to relay on the black market.





By the way I think it's unbelievably arrogant what you're saying, who do you think you are condemning America? Oh they will shiver and shudder when they heard takeo's condemnation!!

I don't think the French government will either be very impressed by your condemnation of French trade with Iran, what an arrogance for non-Iranian, non-French people to condamn normal trade in cars between France and Iran!


There are no non American terrorists, didn't you hear?

clearly you don't read my texts, you just have your own cliché idea about French people and stick to it, whatever the reality, very sad really.


Of course he is. Don't you read? There are no Non American (or their Jew puppets...or masters I forget which) terrorists.

of course I make an exception for mediocrates since I'm already used to his nonsensical phantasy which is quite amusing.


According to Fronce there aren't I guess. I think it's too bad how many French posters confirm the stereotype of being anti-American. Please don't think all Europeans are!

I'm not anti-American, only anti-Bush, READ BEFORE yOU JUDGE!
You're the one stereotyping people. By the way don't politicians get shot in your country (not by muslims but by their fellow dutchmen)?



That must be it! When i was in Paris the water tasted like chloor (don't know the word in English?). Here the water is ok but still I always drink bottled water. SPA!
By the way, guess where I bought my USA- headscarf sort-of-thing? In Paris!

Actually Spa is Belgian in northern france they drink it as well and it tastes like *h*t (the * to mark American hypocrisy, you can lie about WMD which is far better than lying about a dirty dress or using d*rty words) which is still better than the smell of Dutch cheese.

[Mira~]

Originally posted by Semsem
France just told Iran it is OK to pursue their nuclear reactor! Jerusalem Post article by Carolyn Glick.

Here is a particularly interesting comment from the article:

And France is also consistent it its wish to appease these dictatorships. Last June, dovetailing the conclusion of a number of lucrative business deals between French companies and Iran, the French police launched a crackdown on members of an Iranian opposition group, the National Council of Resistance of Iran. They arrested 164 members and launched investigations against 17 on terrorism-related charges. Yet one year later, French human rights officials noted this week in a demonstration against the crackdown, not one indictment has been filed.

Iranian officials continued to press the French to crackdown on the group during the delegation's visit to Teheran. Degallaix assured his hosts that France considers the group a terrorist organization and would not allow it to operate in the country.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1088046788592&apage=1

And here is the website to the organization:

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/

I'm going to look into this organization a bit more, but upon initial inspection, it appears odd that France would deem this organization a terrorist group while claiming that Hezbollah is not.

[takeo]

You have a point about economic sanctions. The Iraqi experience as well as North Korea illustrate your point pretty well.

exactly, guess how different China would have been today if the us and later the soviet-Union didn't stop their economic sanctions?


But the international community still needs to have access to non-military means in which to discipline rouge regimes.

there are other means, a teacher knows it's better to stimulate pupils by encouraging them instead of punishing them. Why not offer North Korea for example massive investments, why not build CAR fACTORIES in North Korea instead of investing in another destructive war? the North will become wealthier and this on its turn will cause an opening of the country to the outside world and encourage it to follow the "chinese way".

You can't just treat a country like Iran in a business as usual manner. Look, you can complain all you want about how messed up US foreign policy is when it came to sanctions in Iraq, but at least our government didn't stoop to the level of France and derive an economic benefit from the oil for food program. France also provided the Khartoum regime with military intelligence and both France and Germany provided helicopters that were used by the regime for ethnic cleansing.

France as well as other countries knew the embargo was contraproductive and very harmfull for the Iraqi economy, doing business with Iraq was what both our companies, the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people wanted, and the Iraqi people would have benefitted the most when the sanctions would have been lifted without a war. (and please don't start about palaces, more palaces were build during the '80's and the cost of one palace equals one day of lost income due to the embargo, the embargo meant there was no money nor equipment to maintain highways and bridges, provide hospitals, etc. all services which were at a high standard during the 80's)
about the regime in Kartoum all the us did "contribute" to this conflict was bombing a medicine factory!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I wouldn't dare to list all the evil regimes which bought conventional weapons in the US or GB...







Dominique de Villepin (French Foreign Minister) demanded along with the United States that Iran sign the additional protocols of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty in 2003. Iran continues down the path towards nuclear proliferation. The EU was pressuring Iran to comply with the IAEA’s demands by linking the matter to EU’s trade relations with Iran, but France's policies are not in-line with the rest of the EU on that. So we see an inconsistent approach from Europre and an aggressive approach from the US, and Iran continues down the road towards nuclear capability and all the while they fund groups like Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

Iran was very cooperative before the war in Iraq and there were clear signs the reforms were going to be succesfull, mostly as a result of the war however conservatives used the threat as an excuse to stop democratisation, oppress free press and liberalisation and regain power (most analysers, even American ones agree the war contributed to this evolution, and especially the strong fundamentalist shia uprisings in Iraq). the lesson most countries such as north Korea and Iran learned from Iraq was that you better have wMD because they're going to attack you anyway if they get away with it. Pakistan, Israel and India got away with it, not exactly peacefull stable countries either.

france, as well as the rest of Europe, think that by offering more economic cooperation to Iran the regime will be more willing to cooperate, don't forget Iran reiterated its promise because it declared Europe didn't fullfill the economic promises it made under American pressure. (and as you know GB has veto-power in all the decisive EU-bodies)

-ja I went to the flea markets on the northside of Paris and sold my old NY State licence plates for a bunch of money. Odd people the French. They hate American popular culture but they're obsessed with it. Anything American - the kitchy-er the better, Velvet Elvis, the whole shebang.

they don't hate American popular culture, on the contrary as you have noticed.


Takeoista policies only make sense if you don't want concrete things in exchange. As long as you accept the blackmail approach of the Mullahs while ignoring what they do regionally to foment violence and terrorism. You give them money open their markets regardless of what they do then there is zero incentive for them to change.

nonsense, if they give up their WMD-program and open up in exchange for economic cooperation we will have achieved more than the us has ever achieved in the Middle East. (saoudi arabia for example!) And we have concrete things in exchange for our cars: money! I went to Iran and I'm sure whatever happens the mullahs won't last long, at least if Iran continues to open up and as long as the youth continues to be western-oriented. much better trading with Iran than giving weapons to REAL TERRORIST_SUPPORTING COUNTRIES SUCH AS S.A.

[takeo]

Unless you actually engage in detente or something like it or at least acknowledge that potentially hostile enemies are not locked into your strategic goals then all you are doing is paying baksheesh.

we are trading,and not even weapons, remember, as a businessman and capitalist you should support this.
and of course nothing is locked in our strategic goals, we can only hope it'll help, but at least there's more hope for Iran than there is for Iraq. Iraqi's as becoming more extremist every day (a result of years of embargo and one year of bloody foreign occupation and war) while Iranians are generally quite westernised and moderate.




"The Iranian project is a good possibility for Russia to prove its capability in this field," Radzhab Safarov, director of the Center for Studying Modern Iran, said. "But it has been building one reactor for about nine years now which creates a certain image of the country. If the construction rates of the Bushehr nuclear power plant do not increase, Russia may lose other tenders as well."

It's for sure that Iranians would rather prefere French nuclear power plants, but they are stuck with the Russians (Russian products are not always up to the highest standard, Iranians already experience Russian cars so they know) since we won't yet help them is this sensitive field. However this may change in the near future.


. France is helping a terrorist State that murdered 400 Jews in Argentina. Hope it won't bring France luck.

We are trading with them, not helping them, and who says Iran was behind the tragedy in Argentina? But one thing is for sure: the US is HELPING a country which is directly involved in numerous terrorist acts and has very obscure links with Al-Quaida.


If yo were a Cuban forced to flee Cuba yuo would not make such insensitive statements. The majoruty of Cuban refugees in the US support the embargo.

BS, I know a few (recent) Miami Cubans and they even protested against the latest move of the Bush-administration which makes it impossible to send money to family in Cuba. Only the very vocal but small terrorist minority supports the embargo, the ones belonging to the Batista-clan who fled Cuba in the 50's because they lost their property and now want revenge. The same people who organise terrorist attacks against tourist facilities in Havana.(but hey those aren't terrorists but freedom warriers)
And why do you think Cubans flee Cuba? Do you think all of them are political refugees or could it be that the fact they will be granted immidiate citizenship in ths us as well as gain several times more than in Cuba (mostly as a result of the embargo which prohibits economic devellopment) has a part in it?
Just propose to Haitians or Dominicans the same and you can bet on it soon the Hispaniola island will be empty and the latin population of the US will grow incredibly fast... but for one reasons or another only CUBANS enjoy immidiate citizenship, unlike other immigrants from poorer and more oppressive countries... if you can't see the hypocrisy you're either blind or very cynical.

No you French are boosting the Imams by supporting their economies.

nope we boost the Iranian economy, which is NOT the same as the Imams. (besides in Iran they're called mullahs)
YOU are boosting the most cruel most terroristsupporting regime in the entire middle east.

I think you French learnt nothing since Petain. Stop your condescending arragant remarks.

and you learned nothing since Vietnam, gooodmooorning Bagdad!

So what? Screw GB. Screw France most of all.

screw everyone, I'm the only good one and all the rest is evil, sounds you need a shrink...


Bull. No difference.

big difference, many Americans also hate Bush and American politics, it doesn't make them anti-Americans. (perhaps you think so, which means you're not exactly very tolerant and democraticminded and so not very American since America used to be all about freedom and tolerance... )

Who the F cares what they think. Jerks. Anybody who HATES is a JERK.

I appreciate your self-criticism...



Yes the PRIMITIVES all HATE BUSH.

more tolerance...



About Cuba, I wish a more active anti-castro policy from Europe. Castro putting poets or writers in jail for years just because they oppose him. This is one of the things that are unacceptable. (Note I didn't yell 'Invade Cuba )

The only people Castro put in jail were people cooperating with terrorist organisations in miami such as alfa. note that several Cubans are in jail in the us for "infiltrating in Cuban-American organisations"... in Cuba there are several opponents such as Vladimiro Roque which can criticise the government from inside cuba, however he can't participate to the elections.
Cuba is much less oppressive than other countries which have been supported by the us for years such as Guatemala, Honduras, etc. where human right workers and union activists still disappear on a daily basis. And why do you think neither Europe nor the us criticise the massive human rights abuses in countries such as Pakistan, Russia, Saoudi Arabia, yes why not even china?$?$?$?$?
European companies are investing in Cuba, tourism is the first and main income of Cuba nowadays since sugar-prices (as well as the economy of its main trading partner Russia) have plumetted and investments in Cuba are difficult due to the embargo (just last week a Jamaican major company decided to stop investments after being warned by the us-autorities). However the European autorities are not encouraging trade with Cuba, mostly as a result of Brittish and (when aznar was still in power) Spanish pressure. Canada, Mexico and China are also important trade partners of Cuba while Venezuela provides oil to the market-price (which has infuriated us-autorities and may have been one of the reasons why they supported the abortive coup in this country) so nowadays the economy is slowly growing.

Oh it's more than poets and writers. It's many teachers, civil servants, media people, the gays and just about anyone else who expresses an opinion about something. According to your model for national behavior its some kind of massive warcrime but as we know Good Marxist Revolutions don't commit crimes, only fat dumb white people do.

have you ever been to Cuba? I don't think so, I never saw a country with such an open public gaylife, actually more than I wished to see...
according to AI the worst human rights abuses are going on in Guantanamo bay... Cuba prisons are horrible but at least prison inmates don't get tortured or deprived of light. and most Cuba prisoners are common criminals, very few political prisoners, this compared to Guantanamo bay where virtually all the prisoners are political prisoners, most of them not connected to terrorists.

[takeo]

I think the Dog is Christ and the Devil naturally is a Frenchman licking the inner thigh of an Iraqi prisoner. But I'm just a man.

you're a distastefull crasy son of a bit$h and I wouldn't be surprised if you were in abu Greib yourself soing nasty things with Iraqi prisoners. (did you tell your wife about your gay phantasies?)

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by takeo
you're a distastefull crasy son of a bit$h and I wouldn't be surprised if you were in abu Greib yourself soing nasty things with Iraqi prisoners. (did you tell your wife about your gay phantasies?)

Yes.

Have you and Olivier exchanged numbers or bodily fluids yet? You know, one day its on the internet, the next, you're kissing each other's asses in real life!

[Semsem]

>>I'm not so sure, it would most likely also increase poverty and extremism in Israel and Palestine alike, however a weapons embargo would be justified as long as israel occupies the Westbank and Gaza.
<<

Ding dong! Israel offered 2 give back the West Bank and Gaza and Eas Jerusalem and Arafart said No. Are you are an Israel Jew basher?

[Semsem]

<<Originally posted by takeo
you're a distastefull crasy son of a bit$h and I wouldn't be surprised if you were in abu Greib yourself soing nasty things with Iraqi prisoners. (did you tell your wife about your gay phantasies?) <<

You know Takeo not only are you a US, Israel and Jew basher but now we see you are also a homophobic gay basher too.

And what was done in Abu Ghareib was nothing compared 2 what u French hypocrites did in Rwanda recently aiding genocide but also nothing compared to the genocide u committed in Algeria.

[Semsem]

<<[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]we are trading,and not even weapons,<<

BS. A French Minister said in Tehran he sees nothing wrong with Iran having nuclear reactors. You are helping Iran like u helped Saddam Hussein.

<<while Iranians are generally quite westernised and moderate. <<

Mmmmm yes Iran is very moderate. They threaten to destroy Israel, they torture Bahais and take out the eyes of Ismailis. Yes Takeo they are very moderate.

>>and who says Iran was behind the tragedy in Argentina? <<

Stop distorting facts. It is well known Iran blew up 400 Argentine Jews just as it is well known that France is antisemitic.

>>YOU are boosting the most cruel most terroristsupporting regime in the entire middle east. >>

Who is that please? You mean Saudi Arabia or Israel?

>>and you learned nothing since Vietnam, gooodmooorning Bagdad! <<

And France learnt nothing from Petain nor Algeria. The President of Rwanda just accused France of helping slaughter millions of Rwandans.

<<screw everyone, I'm the only good one and all the rest is evil, sounds you need a shrink... <<

Screw our enemies yes and France is certainly our enemy.

>>big difference, many Americans also hate Bush and American politics<<

Because they are just as dumb as the French. Many Americans were also against fighting Hitler. Does that make them right?

>>it doesn't make them anti-Americans.>>

It does.

(>>perhaps you think so, which means you're not exactly very tolerant and democraticminded and so not very American since America used to be all about freedom and tolerance... ) >>

Bush will win the election.

<<have you ever been to Cuba? I don't think so, I never saw a country with such an open public gaylife,>>

BS. The gays are put in prison.

>>actually more than I wished to see...
according to AI the worst human rights abuses are going on in Guantanamo bay..<<

Oh now we have an Al Quaida sympathiser. At least the US do not behead prisoners like your Al Quaida friends.

[Semsem]

f>>rance, as well as the rest of Europe, think that by offering more economic cooperation to Iran the regime will be more willing to cooperate, don't forget<<

The Europeans are the greediest money grubbers on the planet who would sell their mothers to trade with Iran and Syria.

[Semsem]

>>ahava and medio, I don't want to interrupt your cosy tête-à-tête, nice to see you found a common ennemy in France. <<

My aunt lived in Paris for two years. She was too afraid to tell them she was Jewish because they were makin so many antisemitic statements.

One co worker would always say "Je ne tiens pas les Juifs dans mon coeur." Translation: I do not hold the Jews in my heart.

[Olivier]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
hentai scat pornYou know Mediocrates, for a traditionnalist wanting to arrange marriages the references you use are quite surprising at times.

You're the last person I imagined would be guiding me into japanese pornography !

As for the "Roman" suggestion it's a fine idea - I don't like the religious rethoric it seems, a bit like talking like bush to me - but I don't want to offend the italians either.


As for the pictures, you might not like them, but what you see here are for the history books of your grandkids. Let's just face it. I just realized you can do the same kind of interpretations for nearly all pictures.

[Semsem]

Olivier says: "[You know Mediocrates<

Shucks! Isn't Mediocrates on Olivier's Jewish boycott list? I am really very, very jealous.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
, however a weapons embargo would be justified as long as israel occupies the Westbank and Gaza. If I ever wondered how much distant from reality one can be, takeo comes in and prove me wrong again. He always breaks new records.

About arm embargo, it's the BEST thing that can happen to Israel. You see This is the result of previous weapon embargos (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/israeli_weapons.html) and different restrictions on arms selling to Israel. We have our own industry, which is now, the world most superior.

The only reason we have American weapons, is they cost us nothing. Over 2bn US$ are paid to Israel so to curb our compatirion with the US military industries for foreign contracts, inhibit our own resourcefulness, and allow the US goverment some control over Israeli politics.

The day WE will ask for the end of this foreign aid, is coming closer.

there's a difference between supporting countries and trading with them, YOU are supporting Saoudi Arabia with weapons and logistic aid, wE are trading in cars with Iran.
Embargo's are not the right way to force a country, Unless it Israel? :rolleyes: some two faced commie you are. :mad:

it has never worked in the past and only resulted in poverty, destabilisation and more extremism. And by the way embargo's make countries MORE corrupted as well, since people have to relay on the black market. Black markets exist and flourish when ever there is a restrictive socialist-communist backwarded economy system. No one embargoed USSR. And what a great black markets, where there...

In Cuba (under restictions), black marketeers opened up malls!!!

I don't think the French government will either be very impressed by your condemnation of French trade with Iran, But ofcourse, money and greed govern France more then other countries of the world. No news about it. And this is the problem with France. First to collaborate with the enemy, first to profit from war. No values, what so ever.

what an arrogance for non-Iranian, non-French people to condamn normal trade in cars between France and Iran! We both know, that it's not only cars and we all know what "tractor parts" or "agricultural machinary" really are. It's not where the big money is. Total embago of Iran is what is needed, because we know the Europeans nature of this subject.

clearly you don't read my texts, you just have your own cliché idea about French people and stick to it, whatever the reality, very sad really. There are aspects on which reality doesn't change for centurires. Clich'eas exist because their serve their purpose, they work and reliably describe truthes you choose to ignore.

I'm not anti-American, only anti-Bush, READ BEFORE yOU JUDGE! Takeo, you Jewish, yet it is admirable, (always is) the passion with which you defend your host country, France. It is pathetic, the France people do not now, and never in the past, returened a percent as much of a favour, to you and to the Jews like you. You'll never find a single frenchmen talking against anti semetism in france, in similar passion with which you defend your host country. Pityful. Just pityful.

[takeo]

Yes.

ok, a very courageous coming out...

Have you and Olivier exchanged numbers or bodily fluids yet? You know, one day its on the internet, the next, you're kissing each other's asses in real life!

no, only on webcam so far...


Ding dong! Israel offered 2 give back the West Bank and Gaza and Eas Jerusalem and Arafart said No. Are you are an Israel Jew basher?

It didn't offer to give it back, only PARTS OF IT, and besides even Sharon's partial withdrawel was rejected by his partymembers...


You know Takeo not only are you a US, Israel and Jew basher but now we see you are also a homophobic gay basher too.

I'm neither of those, where exactly did I bash Israel, the us or gays as a matter of fact?

And what was done in Abu Ghareib was nothing compared 2 what u French hypocrites did in Rwanda recently aiding genocide but also nothing compared to the genocide u committed in Algeria.

We didn't do anything in Ruanda (this was exactly the problem) And Algeria was long ago, a decade before you murdered millions of Vietnamese and Laotians... but at least we have made apologies to the algerian people, I can't see nothing like it towards the vietnamese or Laotians...




BS. A French Minister said in Tehran he sees nothing wrong with Iran having nuclear reactors. You are helping Iran like u helped Saddam Hussein.

Russia is helping to build nuclear reactors, not France, but why can't Iran have nuclear reactors when each western and even most thirth world countries have them?

Mmmmm yes Iran is very moderate. They threaten to destroy Israel, they torture Bahais and take out the eyes of Ismailis. Yes Takeo they are very moderate.

I mean the average Iranian, not the regime. (which is by the way very moderate compared to your friends the saoudi's or your former friends the taliban in Afghanistan)

Stop distorting facts. It is well known Iran blew up 400 Argentine Jews just as it is well known that France is antisemitic.

well known? evidences please? and France isn't anti-semitic, stop inventing things, even our most important politicians are jewish, while I've never seen a Jewish president in the US with a considerable Jewish minority.

Who is that please? You mean Saudi Arabia or Israel?

I mean Saoudi Arabia, the source of wahabism.;.



And France learnt nothing from Petain nor Algeria. The President of Rwanda just accused France of helping slaughter millions of Rwandans.

the president of Ruanda himself is responsible for killing millions of congolese recently, as a result of the war they provoked in 1998, and guess who helped them???µ
france slaughtering millions of Ruandese? BS, I know what he said, stop inventing, he said France didn't help them, that's all.

Screw our enemies yes and France is certainly our enemy.

you definately have a serious problem.



Because they are just as dumb as the French. Many Americans were also against fighting Hitler. Does that make them right?

many more Americans are against the war in Iraq, even the ones who were all for the war in the beginning, because now they know Bush lied to them.


It does.

So Americans who vote democrat and don't like Bush are anti-American? WOW, this is heavy stuff...

Bush will win the election.

not according to the polls, and despite billions of dollars he can invest in his campaign people do not want to be fooled a second term.


BS. The gays are put in prison.

hahaha, you don't know about Cuba and you clearly have never been there.


Oh now we have an Al Quaida sympathiser. At least the US do not behead prisoners like your Al Quaida friends.

problem is that most people in Guantanamo are NOT al-Quaida, according to human right watch and AI.

The Europeans are the greediest money grubbers on the planet who would sell their mothers to trade with Iran and Syria.

no, the greediest money grubbers are you, you would even sell your mother to trade with saoudi arabia and pakistan...

My aunt lived in Paris for two years. She was too afraid to tell them she was Jewish because they were makin so many antisemitic statements.

come on man, stop inventing, being Jew in Paris is much more an advantage than a disadvantage.

One co worker would always say "Je ne tiens pas les Juifs dans mon coeur." Translation: I do not hold the Jews in my heart.

whatever, some people say the same in the US, but the general population (except the Algerian people of course) is noot anti-semitic at all.



You know Mediocrates, for a traditionnalist wanting to arrange marriages the references you use are quite surprising at times.

:p

[Mira~]

My Gawd this thread is moving fast! I'll respond to a few points now and I'll have to come back to the rest later.

Originally posted by takeo
[B]exactly, guess how different China would have been today if the us and later the soviet-Union didn't stop their economic sanctions?

China started down the road they took on their own. China was one of the countries that Marshal visited China after WWII to see about investing in economic reforms along with Europe and found the Chinese Communist Party ruthless, dedicated Marxists who seemed to count on and encourage China’s economic collapse as a way of furthering their objectives. What can you do in a situation like that? The same problem exists with some African dictators where there are no sanctions today. You almost have to work around the government to invest in the communities so that the people will benefit from the economic capital that you pour into the country. And that is not always possible. China itself is very strict about how investments are made into the country, although they do seem relatively prudent about it. Again, I understand your point about the futility of economic sanctions very well, but economic investment alone is not a cureall for fanatacism. If it were, then Saudi Arabia would not be such a problem because they are not subject to sanctions, the people there have one of the highest literacy rates in the Arab world and the economy has at times experienced an economic surplus.



there are other means, a teacher knows it's better to stimulate pupils by encouraging them instead of punishing them. Why not offer North Korea for example massive investments, why not build CAR fACTORIES in North Korea instead of investing in another destructive war? the North will become wealthier and this on its turn will cause an opening of the country to the outside world and encourage it to follow the "chinese way".

I will come back to North Korea.



France as well as other countries knew the embargo was contraproductive and very harmfull for the Iraqi economy, doing business with Iraq was what both our companies, the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people wanted, and the Iraqi people would have benefitted the most when the sanctions would have been lifted without a war. (and please don't start about palaces, more palaces were build during the '80's and the cost of one palace equals one day of lost income due to the embargo, the embargo meant there was no money nor equipment to maintain highways and bridges, provide hospitals, etc. all services which were at a high standard during the 80's)

I already said that I thought that economic sanctions were counterproductive in Iraq, but while in place, there was a lot of corruption in how the oil for food program was managed and France, among other countires and including the UN, derived an economic benefit from the situation and at the expense of the Iraqi people while the program was in place. There is at least one entire thread dedicated to this as well as a public investigation into the abuse that is currently underway. It has just been downplayed in the media because of the war in Iraq. France only started to change their tune about sanctions when Hussein started waving oil contracts around for those countries who took a stand against sanctions at the UN.



about the regime in Kartoum all the us did "contribute" to this conflict was bombing a medicine factory!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I wouldn't dare to list all the evil regimes which bought conventional weapons in the US or GB...

But Europe loved Clinton! He was charming and had affairs! Anyway, yes the bombing of the medical factory was a terrible thing, but however much it may have contributed to problems there, you cannot compare it to arming a government engaged in what is most definetely the worst case of ethnic cleansing today. As much as apologists want to pretend that it is just a civil or internal ethnic war, that is what has been going on there and continues to go on in at least one part of the country.



Iran was very cooperative before the war in Iraq and there were clear signs the reforms were going to be succesfull, mostly as a result of the war however conservatives used the threat as an excuse to stop democratisation, oppress free press and liberalisation and regain power (most analysers, even American ones agree the war contributed to this evolution, and especially the strong fundamentalist shia uprisings in Iraq). the lesson most countries such as north Korea and Iran learned from Iraq was that you better have wMD because they're going to attack you anyway if they get away with it. Pakistan, Israel and India got away with it, not exactly peacefull stable countries either.

Iran has been pursuing nucelar weapons for a long time. There really is no evidence that they were ever sincere about reforming those aspects of their society that caused them to be subject to sanctions in the first place. When it comes to the Middle East, the West has to be careful to separate the rhetoric of reform from concrete steps, even if they are small steps forward. There has been some reform in the Middle East. The UAE is a good example of that, and it should be encouraged. But Iran has never once stopped it's support of terrorism or made a serious attempt to change its massive human rights abuses. As to your last point, American policy experts fully expected Iran to make every effort to sabatoge the success of American attempts at Iraqi democratization because the last thing Iran wants is a democratic Iraq. The Americans were able to anticipate this, but haven't been able to avoid it, which in part is a result of poor planning and execution by the Americans. Any lessons coming out of the Iraq war for the Arab world are speculative. Facts are, many regimes have been pursuing WMD for a long time, will continue to pursue them, and countries like Libya have decided to abandon them in exchange for economic incentives from the West. A good argument can be made that the rest of the Arab world outside of Iraq has for the first time ever, started to talk seriously about reform since the Iraq war, although the reasons for that are much more complicated than saying that it is directly related to the actual war. Those regimes are in jeopardy of destabalization, oil is not an unlimited resource, and the Arab governments recognize that something has to be done. Getting someone like Hussein out of the way is a positive step in that direction. Arafat and the mullahs in Iran pose similar barriers.


france, as well as the rest of Europe, think that by offering more economic cooperation to Iran the regime will be more willing to cooperate, don't forget Iran reiterated its promise because it declared Europe didn't fullfill the economic promises it made under American pressure. (and as you know GB has veto-power in all the decisive EU-bodies)

If it were just cars and commercial airliners, that would be one thing. But France has been spending years investing in offshore oil exploration in Iran. You made some interesting comments in your post below that I will comment on tomorrow, but I do believe that the type of investment that is made into a country like Iran at this time is very important. Oil wealth does very little to contribute to the investment and thus development of people.

As far as your comments about the EU failing to deliver on their economic promises because of American pressure, Iran made promises too, and they failed to deliver on those promises. You can't ignore those failures. Some mechanism has to be in place to provide a disincentive to violating agreements otherwise there is no incentive to follow through with any agreements. I find your views on nuclear proliferation very disturbing, expecially when it comes to some of the comments that you made in your next couple of posts. Do you realize how close the United States and USSR came to nuclear war?

[Ahava]

Originally posted by takeo
ahava and medio, I don't want to interrupt your cosy tête-à-tête, nice to see you found a common ennemy in France.

Think before you write. I'm not hostile towards France, in fact I'm gonna live there for a couple of months and I probably have French blood in me (going way back though). Also I love the French language. It's other things about France that I dislike. As the Dutch say: "France is a beautiful country, just too bad that there live French".



I'm not so sure, it would most likely also increase poverty and extremism in Israel and Palestine alike, however a weapons embargo would be justified as long as israel occupies the Westbank and Gaza.
I smell hypocrisy. I'm pretty sure you'd have fully backed any Israel embargo on any other occasion. It's just now that you know you can't say it.
Weapon embargo justified? So that the Palestinian murderers can slaughter Jews without resistance?



Embargo's are not the right way to force a country,
hey how about that Israel weapon embargo now?



I don't think the French government will either be very impressed by your condemnation of French trade with Iran, what an arrogance for non-Iranian, non-French people to condamn normal trade in cars between France and Iran!
Oh, I can give you an official condemnation if you are cringing for one. Cause I haven't done it so far so your answer is rather ridiculous. But especially for you: I officially condemn the French-Iranian trade. If you pretend to have the moral high ground, act accordingly.



I'm not anti-American, only anti-Bush, READ BEFORE yOU JUDGE!
You're the one stereotyping people. By the way don't politicians get shot in your country (not by muslims but by their fellow dutchmen)?

Well the majority of Americans supports Bush so it's a fine line. Your remark about the murder on Pim Fortuyn is too outrageous to even react on you bast*rd.


Actually Spa is Belgian in northern france they drink it as well and it tastes like *h*t (the * to mark American hypocrisy, you can lie about WMD which is far better than lying about a dirty dress or using d*rty words) which is still better than the smell of Dutch cheese.

Oy oy oy! :p
You wanted to attack our cheese, Goudse kaas and all the other best cheeses of the world!? Really gutty to say our cheese smells, seen the fact I've never smelled anything worse than those weird little over-dated French cheeses..!

By the way that was a nice performance last night of the national Fronch football team. Very good how you can lose to the football dwarf Greece..very impressive! LOL!

[takeo]

My Gawd this thread is moving fast! I'll respond to a few points now and I'll have to come back to the rest later.

take your time


China started down the road they took on their own. China was one of the countries that Marshal visited China after WWII to see about investing in economic reforms along with Europe and found the Chinese Communist Party ruthless, dedicated Marxists who seemed to count on and encourage China’s economic collapse as a way of furthering their objectives. What can you do in a situation like that?


he was not exactly a neutral source, communists organised entire communities even before they took officially power, they outrooted widespread corruption, famine and feodal agrarian ownership and China continued to devellop troughout the 50's, 60's and 70's, with the cultural revolution as the only exception.

the example of china makes clear that even if china was in the possession of extremists in the early '70's the us-approach to negociate with Mao and committed to a policy of non-interfearance had very positive results for china and for security and peace in the region. Just imagine the us had declared war on china during the cultural revolution we might have had a worldwar or at least a vietnam war multiplied by 100.


The same problem exists with some African dictators where there are no sanctions today. You almost have to work around the government to invest in the communities so that the people will benefit from the economic capital that you pour into the country. And that is not always possible.

ok, this is true to some extend, but you simply have to except you can't change a country from the outside, putting those corrupted regimes under sanctions will only make them more corrupted and more poor. An example is Kenya, the only black african country I visited, an extremely corrupted regime, but finally the Kenyans have peacefully managed to get rid of this regime. (not that all problems will suddenly disappear)


China itself is very strict about how investments are made into the country, although they do seem relatively prudent about it.

it's a good policy, which keeps Chinese themselves in controll over their economy, not the foreign companies, and which generates the most possible for the Chinese state.

Again, I understand your point about the futility of economic sanctions very well, but economic investment alone is not a cureall for fanatacism. If it were, then Saudi Arabia would not be such a problem because they are not subject to sanctions, the people there have one of the highest literacy rates in the Arab world and the economy has at times experienced an economic surplus.

ok, I agree, but in the case of the Saoudi's the us did much more than just trading, it protected the regime with troops on its soil and has more than friendly relations with the royal family. it exports high-tech weapons to SA every year. the us has protected the regime since many decades.


I will come back to North Korea.

you've been there???


I already said that I thought that economic sanctions were counterproductive in Iraq, but while in place, there was a lot of corruption in how the oil for food program was managed and France, among other countires and including the UN, derived an economic benefit from the situation and at the expense of the Iraqi people while the program was in place.

not only French companies, companies from all over the world. But this just confirms my point that embargo's will always generate lots of corruption since the black market is the only way possible to trade.

But Europe loved Clinton! He was charming and had affairs!

I know, but I didn't, he was a much brighter politician than bush, while his policy was not so much different (altough clinton preferred to cooperate with his allies) he could all present it as a humanitarian and security necessity, and people believed him, he was a brilliant actor. Bush on the contrary represents for Europeans pure imperialism, money and realpolitics, which has to do with his style and his policy alike.

Anyway, yes the bombing of the medical factory was a terrible thing, but however much it may have contributed to problems there, you cannot compare it to arming a government engaged in what is most definetely the worst case of ethnic cleansing today.

of course, I'll never defend the regime there.

As much as apologists want to pretend that it is just a civil or internal ethnic war, that is what has been going on there and continues to go on in at least one part of the country.

yes, possibly, but you should look at it and see how to deal with it. clearly NOT the Iraq- or somalia-approach!



Iran has been pursuing nucelar weapons for a long time. There really is no evidence that they were ever sincere about reforming those aspects of their society that caused them to be subject to sanctions in the first place.When it comes to the Middle East, the West has to be careful to separate the rhetoric of reform from concrete steps, even if they are small steps forward. There has been some reform in the Middle East. The UAE is a good example of that, and it should be encouraged. But Iran has never once stopped it's support of terrorism or made a serious attempt to change its massive human rights abuses.

I think the reform in Iran should not be ignored, students and professors gather in universities to discuss politics and ethics, there are many independant newspapers criticising the government (at least there were) boys and girls were almost openly dating with eachother in public parcs, unlike in any other muslim countries, they also go skiing together in the mountains north of Teheran, many youth speak perfect english and watch CNN and MTV on a regular base, boose is sold everywhere on the black market, and unfortunately there's also a thriving prostitution scene going on, not exactly what you would expect in Iran. really you can't ignore the changes in Iran, which are partly a result of the reformation started by Khatami. Of course the old rules and "revolutionary guards" are still in place, but they were loosing influence and strength and generally hated or ignored by the majority. I think you have the wrong idea about what's going on in this country.

As to your last point, American policy experts fully expected Iran to make every effort to sabatoge the success of American attempts at Iraqi democratization because the last thing Iran wants is a democratic Iraq. The Americans were able to anticipate this, but haven't been able to avoid it, which in part is a result of poor planning and execution by the Americans. Any lessons coming out of the Iraq war for the Arab world are speculative.

Yes, but it is a fact shiite fundamentalism gained strength since the war, both in Iraq and Iran. if both devellopments are connected has not been prooven, but likely I think.
Americans had to rely on the opposition against Saddam, which were mainly shia fundamentalists, and Saddam was among the greatets ennemies of the Iranian regime, so actually it would have been very difficult to avoid.

[takeo]

Facts are, many regimes have been pursuing WMD for a long time, will continue to pursue them, and countries like Libya have decided to abandon them in exchange for economic incentives from the West.

yes, indeed

A good argument can be made that the rest of the Arab world outside of Iraq has for the first time ever, started to talk seriously about reform since the Iraq war, although the reasons for that are much more complicated than saying that it is directly related to the actual war.

which countries are you referring to? I can only see the situation deteriorating in Egypt, Jordan, yemen, even in Syria. this is not reforming but regression, they became even more autoritarian.


Those regimes are in jeopardy of destabalization, oil is not an unlimited resource, and the Arab governments recognize that something has to be done. Getting someone like Hussein out of the way is a positive step in that direction. Arafat and the mullahs in Iran pose similar barriers.

Hussein should have been removed by his own people in time, by removing him themselves the Americans have made Iraq a greater barrier than before the war.
Besides tneither Saddam, arafat or the mullahs are the greatest problems, the problem is general corrupted mismanagment and very undemocratic governments, in many cases supported by the West and the us especially. the greatest problems according to me are Mubarak and the saoudi regime, both regimes which directly or indirectly generate lots of sympathy for fundamentalism because of their unpopularity.

If it were just cars and commercial airliners, that would be one thing. But France has been spending years investing in offshore oil exploration in Iran. You made some interesting comments in your post below that I will comment on tomorrow, but I do believe that the type of investment that is made into a country like Iran at this time is very important. Oil wealth does very little to contribute to the investment and thus development of people.

oil wealth also help to devellop the country, it directly influences the economic condition of a country. the problem is that saoudi Arabia, UAE eo did very little to use oil as a way to devellop an industry since they have so much natural wealth and so few inhabitants.

As far as your comments about the EU failing to deliver on their economic promises because of American pressure, Iran made promises too, and they failed to deliver on those promises. You can't ignore those failures. Some mechanism has to be in place to provide a disincentive to violating agreements otherwise there is no incentive to follow through with any agreements.

I agree, but on both sides, so if Europe fails to deliver, it means Iran isn't bound by their promises either.

I find your views on nuclear proliferation very disturbing, expecially when it comes to some of the comments that you made in your next couple of posts. Do you realize how close the United States and USSR came to nuclear war?

yes, but I don't think they would actually have been so stupid to attack Cuba (or the USSR to have attacked US-territory), according to me it was all part of a strategic game and the soviets got what they wanted, a nuke-free Turkey and the garantee the us wouldn't invade Cuba.
Do you think the cold war would have remained COLD if both sides didn't have the possibility to destroy eachother several times?


Think before you write. I'm not hostile towards France, in fact I'm gonna live there for a couple of months and I probably have French blood in me (going way back though). Also I love the French language. It's other things about France that I dislike. As the Dutch say: "France is a beautiful country, just too bad that there live French".

so you love the French language and cities but not the french people. Unfortunately for you it's the French who speak French and build their cities...
I like Dutch girls but not their cities and not their language, which is a kind of Flamand but much harder than spoken in Belgium and definately not their cheese.



I smell hypocrisy. I'm pretty sure you'd have fully backed any Israel embargo on any other occasion. It's just now that you know you can't say it.

no, I just changed my mind.


Weapon embargo justified? So that the Palestinian murderers can slaughter Jews without resistance?

no, Israel still has enough weapons to defend itself, but it would be a serious stimulation to take into consideration the opinion of the world community...


hey how about that Israel weapon embargo now?

a weapons embargo is ok, it is directed against the regime and not the people.

Oh, I can give you an official condemnation if you are cringing for one. Cause I haven't done it so far so your answer is rather ridiculous. But especially for you: I officially condemn the French-Iranian trade. If you pretend to have the moral high ground, act accordingly.

fine, I condemn us-Dutch relations, now what?


Well the majority of Americans supports Bush so it's a fine line.

not according to the polls

Your remark about the murder on Pim Fortuyn is too outrageous to even react on you bast*rd.

outrageous? I found this murder as well as the whole fuss around this bald man quite outrageous.



Oy oy oy!
You wanted to attack our cheese, Goudse kaas and all the other best cheeses of the world!? Really gutty to say our cheese smells, seen the fact I've never smelled anything worse than those weird little over-dated French cheeses..!

actually I don't like French cheese either, I'm not into cheese at all. I like Swiss cheese, but only the holes in it ( :rolleyes: )
ah and I like Georgian white salted cheese, a bit like mozzarello




By the way that was a nice performance last night of the natonal Fronch football team. Very good how you can lose to the football dwarf Greece..very impressive! LOL!

at least we made it to the quarter finals and won the last two cups, let's see how the dutch will perform.

[KSO]

Oy oy oy! :p
You wanted to attack our cheese, Goudse kaas and all the other best cheeses of the world!? Really gutty to say our cheese smells, seen the fact I've never smelled anything worse than those weird little over-dated French cheeses..!

By the way that was a nice performance last night of the national Fronch football team. Very good how you can lose to the football dwarf Greece..very impressive! LOL! [/B]

Why can't we live in peace, and enjoy cheeses from all countries (not the bulgarian one though)

[Semsem]

:confused: Takeo, you Jewish, yet it is admirable, (always is) the passion with which you defend your host country, France. It is pathetic,<<

Are you serious that this Takeo guy is Jewish? My cousin who is French says that 25% of Jews in France are self hating Jews and strongly anti Israel.

However we have to ask ourselves:

1. Is Takeo lying that he is Jewish?
2. Is he Jewish from both parents or did he just have some Jewish grandfather.

If the guy is really Jewish, he wants to be more French than the French; he has to be accepted by French society. Bashing Jews is part of his way to survive.

However by what he says I question whether the guy is really Jewish. I listed a story about my aunt's experiences working in an office in Paris where many employees made antisemitic comments; it was so bad she never said she was Jewish. True it was 1956 to 1958; a while ago. According to Takeo "I am lying."

I also worked for a French bank in New York and a French friend of mine who is not Jewish said to me "Don't tell them you are Jewish." I was subjecxted to quite a few antisemitic comments in that office by staff sent from Paris.

Off topic a bit but the same French friend worked at a major Swiss bank. She also heard antisemitic comments by her boss who knew she was friends with a Jew; once he told her "how can you be friends with a Jew?"

Again; really not convinced that this bimbo is really Jewish.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by takeo

fine, I condemn us-Dutch relations, now what?
Now it shows in which camp you prefer to be. You think it's praiseworthy to trade with Iran and you think it's worth a condemnation to have relations with the free nation who do respect human rights and democracy, America. Glad we cleared that up.



not according to the polls
What polls?



outrageous? I found this murder as well as the whole fuss around this bald man quite outrageous.

What do you know? What's outrageous about the fuss? You think it shouldn't have been a big deal that he was murdered?
I would've wanted to see what he could have made of this country. Good changes were ahead, then a extreme left-wing loony ended that.. The man was crazy anyway. The fact that you said it was a non-muslim , emphasising that, is characteristic. It shows how it is unusual that this time it wasn't a muslim.



at least we made it to the quarter finals and won the last two cups, let's see how the dutch will perform.
The Dutch will do fine. If France had lost to Holland, I'd have said, sure, it's a honorable defeat. But Greece..! :p

[Semsem]

The more I read this and his desire to hurt other Jews with embargoes, the more I question this guy being Jewish. As to France losing to Greece, I don't know what's worse. The Greeks are even more antisemitic than the French.

As to Dutch cheese; I love Edam and Gouda. But I also love French cheeses.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Ahava

The Dutch will do fine. If France had lost to Holland, I'd have said, sure, it's a honorable defeat. But Greece..! :p

Losing to a great coach like Rihengel is a honourable defeat (not talking how bad france looked) But loosing to Big Dick Advocaat... well is also a dubious achievment (achieved only by Latvia so far) But don't be mad, today I'm on your side!

[Ahava]

Originally posted by Semsem
The more I read this and his desire to hurt other Jews with embargoes, the more I question this guy being Jewish. As to France losing to Greece, I don't know what's worse. The Greeks are even more antisemitic than the French.

Are they really? Do you have experience with it? I don't know much about the Greek, at all, they're too far down (geographically, that is :rolleyes: ). Only been to Crete, haven't noticed a thing of antisemitism.



As to Dutch cheese; I love Edam and Gouda.

Hear! Hear!

[Semsem]

] no, Israel still has enough weapons to defend itself, but it would be a serious stimulation to take into consideration the opinion of the world community...>>

I told you that this guy is obsessed by the opinion of the "world community." If Takeo is Jewish, which I question it explains why he is a self hating Jew. These Jews are obsessed by how the world and their fellow citizens view them. I had a conversation with the head of a Jewish organisation in the USA that wanted to stop Caterpillar selling bulldozers to Israel.

All the bimbo was concerned about was the opinion of the "world community."


<<a weapons embargo is ok, it is directed against the regime and not the people. <<

What a bunch of rot. A weapons embargo against Israel is against the regime and not the people? And how are the "people" to be defended if Israel has no weapons.

I have rarely read such gobbleygook. How old is this guy? I thought you had to be over 30; not under 15 to write on this web site.

[Semsem]

This Takeo probably agrees France should trade with Syria too. Anybody who wants to destroy his fellow Jews are his friends.

<<The Dutch will do fine. If France had lost to Holland, I'd have said, sure, it's a honorable defeat. But Greece..! :p [/B][/QUOTE] <<

I am not surprised the French were smashed by the Greeks. The French were defeated by the German Army in a week of fighting. It took longer to defeat France only because nothing happened in the first few months of the war.

[Semsem]

You bet Europe loved Clinton because he did nothing to defend the USA. He was too busy getting his regular b--w job.

[Semsem]

Ahava the Simon Wiesenthal Center has advised Jews to boycott Greece due to the antisemitism there. The 5,000 Jews are being intimidated by the Greek media and politicians to be anti Israel. If you go to the Simon Wiesenthal Center web site you can read about it.

Ever heard about the antisemitic comments made by Mikis Theodorakis, the writer of Zorba the Greek music etc?

[Semsem]

<<(not the bulgarian one though)<<

Good Feta cheese in Bulgaria; they also saved 50,000 Jews in World War 2. have good relations with Israel and a Jewish Foreign Minister so even if you hate salty Bulgarian cheese, it is your duty to buy it at least once a week.

[KSO]

Originally posted by Semsem
Ahava the Simon Wiesenthal Center has advised Jews to boycott Greece due to the antisemitism there. The 5,000 Jews are being intimidated by the Greek media and politicians to be anti Israel. If you go to the Simon Wiesenthal Center web site you can read about it.

Ever heard about the antisemitic comments made by Mikis Theodorakis, the writer of Zorba the Greek music etc?

Ive seen the sequel "Zorbinstein the Evil anti Greek"

[KSO]

Originally posted by Semsem
<<(not the bulgarian one though)<<

Good Feta cheese in Bulgaria; they also saved 50,000 Jews in World War 2. have good relations with Israel and a Jewish Foreign Minister so even if you hate salty Bulgarian cheese, it is your duty to buy it at least once a week.

My Family likes this cheese, So I buy Bulgarian Cheese almost every day.

[takeo]

Why can't we live in peace, and enjoy cheeses from all countries (not the bulgarian one though)

What's wrong with Bulgarian cheese?



Takeo, you Jewish, yet it is admirable, (always is) the passion with which you defend your host country, France. It is pathetic

Jewish is a descent, France is my homecountry.

Are you serious that this Takeo guy is Jewish? My cousin who is French says that 25% of Jews in France are self hating Jews and strongly anti Israel.

"self hating jews" what a ridiculous term, only because they don't support extremist Jewish nationalism and Israeli policy. Than you can say woody Allen too is a "self hating Jew"...
Both my parents and all of my grandparents are Russian/Ukrainian/Moldovan of Jewish descent, but enough about me, what about your origins?

However by what he says I question whether the guy is really Jewish. I listed a story about my aunt's experiences working in an office in Paris where many employees made antisemitic comments; it was so bad she never said she was Jewish. True it was 1956 to 1958; a while ago. According to Takeo "I am lying."

I can only say that I never experienced an anti-semitic remark in my entire life from French people, at least not seriously meant, of course I've heard quite a few jokes about Jews. I think Jews, at least in France, suffer much less from racism than other etnic groups. And probably in 2007 we'll have a Jewish president, Nicolas Sarkozy. I don't know if you're lying, and I don't know about the 50's, could be, but nowadays it's certainly small. But of course there's anti-semitism among Arabs, in Belgium a jewish student has been stabbed recently by Arabs, but all this is a spill-out of the middle-eastern conflict.


Now it shows in which camp you prefer to be. You think it's praiseworthy to trade with Iran and you think it's worth a condemnation to have relations with the free nation who do respect human rights and democracy, America. Glad we cleared that up.

I was joking, Holland can have relations with any country, i don't care the least.


What polls?

opinion-polls conducted in the US by gallup for example.


What do you know? What's outrageous about the fuss? You think it shouldn't have been a big deal that he was murdered?


yes it was, certainly in a country which usually has such boring politicians.


I would've wanted to see what he could have made of this country.

at least the party he established really messed up.

Good changes were ahead, then a extreme left-wing loony ended that.. The man was crazy anyway. The fact that you said it was a non-muslim , emphasising that, is characteristic. It shows how it is unusual that this time it wasn't a muslim.

I said so because most members on this forum are obsessed by muslims.


The Dutch will do fine. If France had lost to Holland, I'd have said, sure, it's a honorable defeat. But Greece..!

lol, if I remember well last time the dutch couldn't even join because they were defeated by Belgium! The time of Van Basten is long gone. Greece isn't bad, if not they wouldn't have made it.


The more I read this and his desire to hurt other Jews with embargoes, the more I question this guy being Jewish. As to France losing to Greece, I don't know what's worse. The Greeks are even more antisemitic than the French.

Remember Noam Chomsky is also Jewish, and he's far more left-wing than I am, being jewish doesn't mean that you necessarily have to agree on everything, rather on the contrary, to you know the verbal which says that if you have two Jews who debate you have three opinions...



As to Dutch cheese; I love Edam and Gouda. But I also love French cheeses.

boaaark



Losing to a great coach like Rihengel is a honourable defeat (not talking how bad france looked) But loosing to Big Dick Advocaat... well is also a dubious achievment (achieved only by Latvia so far) But don't be mad, today I'm on your side!

Russia was a bit disappointing, but they have very hardcore supporters, last time they destroyed half of Moscow after Russian defeat!


Are they really? Do you have experience with it? I don't know much about the Greek, at all, they're too far down (geographically, that is ). Only been to Crete, haven't noticed a thing of antisemitism.

it is a longlasting history of mutual distrust and persecution originating with Byzantium.


I told you that this guy is obsessed by the opinion of the "world community." If Takeo is Jewish, which I question it explains why he is a self hating Jew. These Jews are obsessed by how the world and their fellow citizens view them. I had a conversation with the head of a Jewish organisation in the USA that wanted to stop Caterpillar selling bulldozers to Israel.

it's not so much the worldopinion, it's because the worldopinion is the only one that can convince Israel to change its destructive policy. isolation by the way isn't good for israel.

What a bunch of rot. A weapons embargo against Israel is against the regime and not the people? And how are the "people" to be defended if Israel has no weapons.

the regime will have to ask international assistance, and in turn will have to make some concessions. Concessions such as the end of the occupation which is the most important thing needed to establish peace not only according to me but according to a growing part of Israeli's as well who are sick and tired to be held hostage by a very small fanatic group of settlers.

[Semsem]

<<It didn't offer to give it back, only PARTS OF IT, and besides even Sharon's partial withdrawel was rejected by his partymembers... >>

Another lie Takeo. Barak offered to return about 95% of the West Bank and Gaza. And President Clinton says in his book Arafat turned down a great opportunity for Peace.

>>I'm neither of those, where exactly did I bash Israel, the us or gays as a matter of fact? <<

Wishing your fellow Jews harm is Jew bashing. You are a Kapo Jew (if in fact you are Jewish) but I am convinced there is something fishy about you.

<<We didn't do anything in Ruanda >>

Exactly. You Frogs permitted millions of Rwandans to be slaughtered. You did nothing to stop Jews from being slaughtered either. France murdered 70,000 Jews and tried to murder 300,000 Moroccan Jews; slaughtered 1 million Algerians and by doing nothing in Rwanda was an accomplice in genocide.

America did not murder millions of Vietnamese civilians and never had a policy in committing genocide. Anyway the Algerians are certainly getting their revenge by shipping millions of their citizens to your shores.

>>well known? evidences please? and France isn't anti-semitic, stop inventing things, even our most important politicians are jewish, while I've never seen a Jewish president in the US with a considerable Jewish minority. >>

Just this statement alone confirms to me that it is doubtful you are Jewish. You speak like Chirac. You don't have to murder Jews or discriminate against them in jobs necessarily to be antisemitic.

True Jews in France are living well and are prosperous but to deny that the French in general are antisemitic is a lie and a distortion of the truth.

As to Jewish politicians your comment is very naive. France had a Jewish Prime Minister Mendes France in the 1930s. So what? Austria had a Jewish Prime Minister Mr. Bruno Kreisky who by the way was a self hating Jew like you too. Disraeli was Prime Minister of Britain 100 years ago when the country was very antisemitic and he had to convert to Christianity.

Some French Jewish politicians I understand are also anti Israel. I believe Fabius is anti Israel by what I understand.

And Sakozy who may become Prime Minister has a Jewish mother but does not practice Judaism.

>>come on man, stop inventing, being Jew in Paris is much more an advantage than a disadvantage. <<

You have a gaul to say that I am lying about my aunt's experiences in Paris. I have many relatives in France; so I know you are full of it Takeo. Life is very good for them in France but they know what is going on and it's depressing.

But they are also aware of French Jews like you. My cousin's son who attends a French University mentioned that he is disgusted by the French Jewish students like you. I still question though whether you are really Jewish.


>>but the general population (except the Algerian people of course) is noot anti-semitic at all. >>

Complete bull. Just because Jews are not being shipped to camps, and live well in France does not mean that the general population is not antisemitic.

My mother lived in Vienna in the 1930s. It was a great life but underneath yes there was antisemitism.

[KSO]

Originally posted by takeo








Russia was a bit disappointing, but they have very hardcore supporters, last time they destroyed half of Moscow after Russian defeat!




Yes after they lost to Japan in the WC, they went and burnt some Sushi Bars, The Japanese Embassy and a few Japanese synagogues!

[takeo]

Another lie Takeo. Barak offered to return about 95% of the West Bank and Gaza. And President Clinton says in his book Arafat turned down a great opportunity for Peace.

But not eastern jerusalem and not large parts of the Westbank, besides israel would still possess the border so it would be a fake independance, while nothing was said about the many 100's of 1000's of palestinians who were etnically cleansed from Israel in 1948. barak said "take it or leave it" so he didn't left any place for debate.



Wishing your fellow Jews harm is Jew bashing. You are a Kapo Jew (if in fact you are Jewish) but I am convinced there is something fishy about you.

I only wish some of my fellow Jews harm, such as Sharon for example, not the people of Israel, who would benefit from peace.

Exactly. You Frogs permitted millions of Rwandans to be slaughtered.

the us didn't do anything either.

You did nothing to stop Jews from being slaughtered either. France murdered 70,000 Jews and tried to murder 300,000 Moroccan Jews; slaughtered 1 million Algerians and by doing nothing in Rwanda was an accomplice in genocide.

Germany murdered those Jews, and how and when did france tried to murder 300000 Moroccan jews? france still has the largest concentration of North-African sefardim Jews in the world after Israel.
Our war in Algeria was very similar to your war in iraq, both Algerians and iraqi's were and are struggling for real independance.

America did not murder millions of Vietnamese civilians and never had a policy in committing genocide.

Bombing to death IS murdering

Anyway the Algerians are certainly getting their revenge by shipping millions of their citizens to your shores.

few Algerians come to France these days, most are here already, most new refugees come from central-african and asian countries.



Just this statement alone confirms to me that it is doubtful you are Jewish. You speak like Chirac.

I don't like Chirac at all, I'm a communist.

True Jews in France are living well and are prosperous but to deny that the French in general are antisemitic is a lie and a distortion of the truth.

it isn't, how can you say so without having lived in France? you jump to conclusions too fast.

As to Jewish politicians your comment is very naive. France had a Jewish Prime Minister Mendes France in the 1930s. So what? Austria had a Jewish Prime Minister Mr. Bruno Kreisky who by the way was a self hating Jew like you too. Disraeli was Prime Minister of Britain 100 years ago when the country was very antisemitic and he had to convert to Christianity.

GB has never been very antisemitic, a country which led a Jew to be his prime minister can't be very antisemitic. It would be impossible in Russia (a real anti-semitic country) or even in the us...

Some French Jewish politicians I understand are also anti Israel. I believe Fabius is anti Israel by what I understand.

that's right, so what? You can be Jewish and not like the Israeli policy as you can be American and don't like Bush...

And Sakozy who may become Prime Minister has a Jewish mother but does not practice Judaism.

I don't either, most jews in the US nor in France do.


You have a gaul to say that I am lying about my aunt's experiences in Paris. I have many relatives in France; so I know you are full of it Takeo. Life is very good for them in France but they know what is going on and it's depressing.

So tell me what's so depressing?

But they are also aware of French Jews like you. My cousin's son who attends a French University mentioned that he is disgusted by the French Jewish students like you. I still question though whether you are really Jewish.

Being Jew doesn't mean that you all have to have the same opinion, I told you before.

Complete bull. Just because Jews are not being shipped to camps, and live well in France does not mean that the general population is not antisemitic.

so how do you know they're so anti-semitic, tell me!

My mother lived in Vienna in the 1930s. It was a great life but underneath yes there was antisemitism.

there's no comparison at all, even today Germany and Austria are more anti-semitic than france, let alone in the '30's, France is a cosmopolitan nation with nationalisties from all over the world, the Jews are today in very high esteem while the Jews in the '30' in Austria were threated as today the Turkish or Arab immigrants.

[Semsem]

<<Jewish is a descent, France is my homecountry. >>

It is so French to say "I am of Jewish decent." It's a way of denying being Jewish. Are you Takeo a Jew or are you of Jewish decent? There is a big, big difference. According to my French relatives; you represent the typical type of French Jew who wants to assimilate into French society and to be accepted and "loved"; as a way to "survive" in this "hostile" environment; so you turn against your fellow Jews in Israel, who one day Takeo you may need to help you; so don't look down on them or be embarassed by them. They are fighting and sacrifycing themselves for you. In general I believe the Sephardic community who fled the Arab countries is more Zionist than the Ashkenazis. I may be wrong.

Also, don't be so anti American. Were it not for the Americans, your parents, grandfather and grandmother would have ended up in a chimney in Poland. Never forget what America did for you or for your people.

>>"self hating jews" what a ridiculous term, only because they don't support extremist Jewish nationalism and Israeli policy. >>

Ok then you are not a "self hating" Jew. You are a Kapo Jew, if you prefer that term, then it is fine with me.

Israeli policy is to make Peace. Barak offered Peace; it was turned down by your Palestinian friends who wanted to destroy Israel by insisting that 4 million Palestinians have the right to return to Israel. In return Arafat sent suicide bombers and Sharon won the election. My aunt voted for Sharon because of this.

>>Than you can say woody Allen too is a "self hating Jew"...>>

Any Jew who publicly lashes out at Israel and "harms" Israel is a "self hating Kapo Jew." Mr. Soros would be one good example. And with all his billions he has never helped Jews or Israel. For you to sit in comfort in Paris and preach to your fellow Jews about their "destructive" policy is despicable, condescending and revolting.

<<what about your origins? >>

You ask about my origins? I come from Jewish communities who are very Zionist traditionally. I was born in Egypt and was an Egyptian citizen. But my father's family are "Babylonian Jews" from Iraq. Iraqi Jews trace our ancestry back to the Jews who were taken to Babylon as slaves in 550BC. Traditionally we have always been very attached to the land of Israel. 95% of the Iraqi Jews fled to Israel.

My mother's side is exactly the same as you; Romanian (Moldova), Ukranian (formerly Austria) orign. My mother was born in Vienna and was Austrian; but her mother was from Molodavia, Romania (Botosani). Her father was from Czernovitz, Bukovina which is now Ukraine but was Austria when my grandfather lived there. They moved to Vienna in 1914.

You know Takeo my grandfather was not a Zionist until he saw what the Nazis were doing. He was a very assimilated Austrian Jew who was not a Zionist. My mother attended a meeting in Krakow given by Jabotinski in 1936. Zionism meant nothing to her.

When my grandfather saw what the Austrian Nazis did in 1938, he became a Zionist. My mother was one of the lucky few who managed to emigrate to Palestine in 1940. My grandfather could have gone to America as he had the financial means to do so and an invitation but he said no way; only to a Jewish country.

Are you aware that most Romanian Jews after the war went to live in Israel? They were very attached to Israel.

Because we were persecuted by both the Nazis and the Arabs living in an Arab country, we are Zionists on both side.

Never look down on Israel; you may need them one day.

<<I can only say that I never experienced an anti-semitic remark in my entire life from French people<<

Well being only of "Jewish decent", no wonder you never experienced an antisemitic remark. It does not seem to me that you are "openly" Jewish which is also very French. I experienced French antisemitism many times. And my parents live in Switzerland and I am a lot in contact with French people as the border is 10 minutes away and I have heard many antisemitic comments. We know it is prevalent. So is consistent Israel bashing.

I lived in Lyon as a kid for 5 years. We never kept our mesusa outside; but inside. Our concierge / super was antisemitic and we never told her we were Jewish. We were very careful to whom we told we were Jewish.

<<at least not seriously meant, of course I've heard quite a few jokes about Jews. <<

Mmmmmmmmm so according to you these jokes about Jews which are usually "distasteful" about money etc and big ugly hooked noses are not antisemitic? I also lived in England and that's all we would hear. That alone 2 me is antisemitic. To you no; but to me yes.

<<I think Jews, at least in France, suffer much less from racism than other etnic groups>>

OK I agree. Granted. Jews are prosperous, comfortable in France at least up to now, but don't tell me that there is no current of underlying antisemitism. I don't know though what it will be like in 50 years? Not good in my opinion.

>> And probably in 2007 we'll have a Jewish president, Nicolas Sarkozy.>>

Mmmmm Takeo please let us "not exaggerate". Yes Sarkozy has a Jewish mother so yes he is Jewish but he has a non Jewish father and is "not a practising Jew." I like him though and he will certainly not be as anti American as Chirac.

As I said Austria had a Kapo self hating Jewish Prime Minister called Bruno Kreisky. France in the 1930s had a great Jewish Prime Minister Mendes France and England had Disraeli; so what?
Egypt and Iraq both had Jewish Ministers of Finance in the 1930s. So what? Does not mean anything necessarily.

>>I don't know if you're lying, and I don't know about the 50's, could be, but nowadays it's certainly small. But of course there's anti-semitism among Arabs, in Belgium a jewish student has been stabbed recently by Arabs, but all this is a spill-out of the middle-eastern conflict. >>

I agree; the dangerous antisemitism is practiced by the Arabs. This is the threat for the Jews in France. Your threat is not from Le Pen; it's the Arabs. And the French Courts do nothing.