French refuse to help non-Jewish woman attacked on train [Archive]

Semsem

07-11-2004, 09:00 AM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1089516099595

Jul. 11, 2004 16:21 | Updated Jul. 11, 2004 19:21
Non-Jewish Paris woman suffers anti-Semitic attack
By MICHEL ZLOTOWSKI

Six Arab youths attacked a 23-year old woman and her baby because they thought she was Jewish, Friday morning in a commuter train near Paris.

The youths, aged 15 to 20, stole the backpack of a young mother traveling on the train. Rummaging through her documents for money and credit cards, they found out that her address was in the posh 16th arrondissement of Paris – in fact, her former address. "All the Jews live there," said one of the youth.

The six then pulled knives, slashed the young woman's T-shirt and trousers and cut her hair "for a souvenir," they told her. Then they daubed three swastikas on her belly with black felt pens. When the train stopped at the Sarcelles station (North of Paris), they knocked over the baby buggy holding the woman's one-year old baby and fled.

The woman, who is not Jewish, was not injured.

Some twenty people were seated in the double-decker carriage all the time the six were harassing the young mother. According to the police reports, no one tried to come to her help or even pulled the signal to warn a controller.

After the gang left the train, the young mother stayed on board with her baby and traveled another hour to reach her destination. She later went to the police station to file a complaint against her aggressors.

A French police source told The Jerusalem Post that all possible means were devoted to track down the culprits. The police requested the suburban train authority to provide the monitoring videotapes of the stations where the gang boarded and left the train. It takes twelve minutes to travel from the village of Louvres, where the six embarked, to Garges-Sarcelles, where they left the train. Large Jewish and Muslim communities live side by side in Sarcelles, 15 kilometers North of Paris.

"We asked for witnesses to come and testify," the source sid, "but no one has done so yet." In the case of aggressions, witnesses do not dare testify because they fear the culprits would retaliate. In several recent occurrences not linked to anti-Semitic attacks, indicted youths threatened witnesses inside courthouses. The witnesses then refused to testify. Even judges are often threatened in court.

French President Jacques Chirac said he was "horrified by this odious attack" that occurred only hours after he called on the French to step up the struggle against anti-Semitism and racism. All French political leaders expressed their horror and disgust at a crime "smearing France", said Jean-Louis Debr , the Chairman of the National Assembly.

Roger Cukierman, Chairman of CRIF, the umbrella body politically representing French Jews, said, "We know that the French government is up in arms against anti-Semitism. We would like the civil society to do the same. Because judges reject cases brought against perpetrators of anti-Semitic acts or aggressions, those people feel they enjoy a total impunity. It is now up to the imams and the Muslim leaders to speak out and firmly condemn anti-Semitism. If they fail to do so, the civilian peace is at stake", said Cukierman.

Ahava

07-11-2004, 09:05 AM

I don't think it's just in the French genes, this passiveness. It's in human nature.
The majority of people, especially in Europe perhaps, is chicken .

Semsem

07-11-2004, 09:06 AM

So let's analyse this. A woman and her 13 month baby are attacked by French Arabs because they think she is Jewish on a French train with 20 passengers. Incidentally she is not even Jewish.

In Egypt too in the 1940s and 1950's there were instances when they would kill people in the streets thinking they were Jewish when they really were not.

The 20 French passengers do absalutely nothing. They don't even have the courage to seek help from the conductor or pull the emergency chord.

This just shows that the French have not changed since Generale Petain and Laval. They are weasels, cowards and by remaining silent they were accomplices.

Yesterday it was the French Jews, now it's beginning to be the French non-Jews. Mark my words. Within 10 years it will be the non French Jews who will be attacked. This is only the beginning.

haganah

07-11-2004, 09:38 AM

Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews

VERSAILLES, France - A young woman and her baby were attacked in a suburban train near Paris on Saturday by unidentified men who drew swastikas on her stomach with a pen in what police said was an anti-Semitic assault.

The six attackers who were armed with knives clipped the 23-year-old woman's hair, and cut her t-shirt and pants before drawing three swastikas on her body.

The men of North African origin also overturned the pram with her baby of 13 months.

In the attack they robbed her backpack which contained her identity papers, a bank card and 200 euros ($250).

Police said the attackers erroneously assumed the woman was Jewish because she was living in Paris' posh 16th district.

"Only Jews live in the 16th district," one of the men was quoted as having said.

French President Jacques Chirac expressed his horror and condemned what he called "a shameful attack."

The perpetrators must be found, held accountable and condemned with the full severity of the law, a statement issued by his office said.

French Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin asked police to find the attackers within the shortest possible time, his ministry said in a statement.

The attack was "all the more serious because it was marked by racism and anti-Semitism," he said.

FRANCE SUCKS.

Semsem

07-11-2004, 09:43 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3884983.stm

Swastika attack on French mother
BBC

The assault follows a rise in anti-Semitic attacks
French politicians have reacted with horror to an anti-Semitic attack on a woman and her baby on a train.
A gang of young men cut her hair, slashed her clothes and drew swastikas on her body, before overturning the pram in which her infant was lying.

Other passengers failed to intervene as the six men attacked the woman, whom they accused of being Jewish.

President Jacques Chirac condemned the "shameful act", which came the day after he vowed a crackdown on racism.

He demanded that "everything be done to catch the perpetrators... and that they are judged and sentenced with all severity".

Surrounded

The 23-year-old woman was on a train just north of Paris on Friday morning, with her 13-month-old baby.

Six men - described by French media as of North African appearance - surrounded her and rifled through her bag.

According to police, they found papers referring to the wealthy 16th district of the capital, and said: "There are only Jews in the 16th."

Police said the woman was not Jewish and no longer lived in the district.

The attackers reportedly shoved the woman, used a knife to cut her hair and her shirt open, and drew swastikas on her stomach with a marker pen.

The baby was apparently tipped out of its pram in the melee.

Passengers criticised

Politicians from all sides condemned the attack.

Jean-Paul Huchon, president of the Ile-de-France region surrounding Paris, despaired of the lack of reaction from fellow passengers.

He recalled the French deportation of Jewish children during German occupation in World War II, saying: "And now, we let people be attacked like this without reacting, without doing anything."

Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin ordered police to find the culprits "as quickly as possible".

On Thursday, President Chirac complained of a spate of racist and anti-Semitic attacks, including the desecration of Jewish and Muslim graves.

Commentators have linked increasing Muslim-Jewish tension to the continuing conflict in the Middle East.

A few days previously, a report warned that poor suburban areas of French cities were becoming ethnic "ghettoes", where radical Islam was taking root.

Semsem

07-11-2004, 09:45 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3884983.stm

Gilgamesh

07-11-2004, 09:51 AM

Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews more then anything, the French, who denay being ca;;ed anti semeties, were most insulted from being considered Jews!

Well, I find it most ironic. Europeans actualy, practicly and physicly suffer from anti semetism... directed at them! Well Well Well... If that ain't a sign from the all mighty, what is?

There is a phrase common in Israel, taken from our sages, which says... "A rightous man job done by others". (Hebrew: Tzadik, Me'lachto Na'a'seit Be'yedei A'he'rim). Has many different meanings one should contemplate about. Don't get cought up with single meaning alone.

FRANCE SUCKS. So true!

Gilgamesh

07-11-2004, 09:55 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3884983.stm

Swastika attack on French mother
BBC

Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin ordered police to find the culprits "as quickly as possible".

Well, doesn't Arafat voice a strong condemnation after each bombing of his own men?

Now the French lern the words are not the same with actions. And non action is a form of collaboration. Aspecialy when the non action is taken by a man in power. (the top frog, in the French case).

Gilgamesh

07-11-2004, 09:57 AM

I don't think it's just in the French genes, this passiveness. It's in human nature.
The majority of people, especially in Europe perhaps, is chicken .
Not in Israel. Here people help one another, as much as possible. (medical help in accident site, by un authorised person, may cause more harm then good).

L@mplighterM

07-11-2004, 10:00 AM

Anything other than mass deportation of Muslims is a band-aid solution.

drexpert

07-11-2004, 10:14 AM

10 characters minimum!

golani

07-11-2004, 10:55 AM

Anything other than mass deportation of Muslims is a band-aid solution.
Yes,it would not be that expensive
Some Boeing 747 with full load (400 passengers),bound forAlgiers or Tanger would do the cleaning

Some months would suffice to empty France from his submitted goons

Maybe Air france is waiting for its new airbus A380 to do the job,each A380 can carry up to 500 passengers :D

David_in_NYC

07-11-2004, 11:28 AM

I don't think it's just in the French genes, this passiveness. It's in human nature.
The majority of people, especially in Europe perhaps, is chicken .

Too bad there are no Todd Beamers in Europe.

I guess it's true... two World Wars really did eliminate the gene for courage from the European stock.

Mil

07-11-2004, 11:29 AM

Olivier, Olivier - Isn't there a French movie with that name?

KSO

07-11-2004, 11:31 AM

Yes,it would not be that expensive
Some Boeing 747 with full load (400 passengers),bound forAlgiers or Tanger would do the cleaning

Some months would suffice to empty France from his submitted goons

Maybe Air france is waiting for its new airbus A380 to do the job,each A380 can carry up to 500 passengers :D

But there will be a problem, they'll have to make the tickets cheaper because passangers won't get the traditional small bottle of wine...

L@mplighterM

07-11-2004, 12:04 PM

Yes,it would not be that expensive
Some Boeing 747 with full load (400 passengers),bound forAlgiers or Tanger would do the cleaning

Some months would suffice to empty France from his submitted goons

Maybe Air france is waiting for its new airbus A380 to do the job,each A380 can carry up to 500 passengers :D

I’m humane let the old, young and infirm fly and let the rest walk or crawl.

KSO

07-11-2004, 12:14 PM

I’m humane let the old, young and infirm fly and let the rest walk or crawl.

There's an old Israeli Joke that goes like this...

Hitler Himler and Goebbles sitting in a coffee house and disscusing politics, than of course comes the big question what to do with the Jews.

Goebbles starts:
Let's kick them out of Europe, send them to some deserted island and never see them again.

Himler suggests: let's isolate them in some crappy place, and won't let anyone out.

Hitler sits listens and then sais: I have a great idea let's build big camps, we will make them do slave work, won't feed them and keep them in sub human conditions and then when they won't be able to work we kill them all.

Himler and Goebles together: Oh my god Hitler You are such a Nazi.

Semsem

07-11-2004, 12:27 PM

I don't think it's just in the French genes, this passiveness. It's in human nature.
The majority of people, especially in Europe perhaps, is chicken .

Maybe in Europe. But in the USA and in Israel people help. I would not have intervened but I would have gone to seek assistance or pulled the emergency button.

Semsem

07-11-2004, 12:31 PM

:) Ah so that's why they are building the A380? However I have a funny feeling that instead of French Arabs going to Algiers and Casa, they will be full of French Jews heading to Israel, Canada and the USA followed by French goyim (to Canada) 20 years after all the Jews have left.

KSO

07-11-2004, 12:33 PM

Ahava

07-11-2004, 02:19 PM

Maybe in Europe. But in the USA and in Israel people help. I would not have intervened but I would have gone to seek assistance or pulled the emergency button.

Yes, me too. How can anyone just stare and do nothing? That's beyond me.

frizzer1

07-11-2004, 02:32 PM

Ahhhh...those non-jews who look like jews are always complaining.

Mediocrates

07-11-2004, 03:02 PM

My family's Orthodox Rabbi was beat down in the street in the middle of the day in front of two dozen witnesses in a large French city in Normandy, last year. No one stepped forward before, during or after. He has lived there for over a decade and people know him. The same week the shul door was defaced and shattered and the official police response was to take a statement and file it away.

takeo

07-11-2004, 04:06 PM

I don't think it's just in the French genes, this passiveness. It's in human nature.
The majority of people, especially in Europe perhaps, is chicken .

Americans especially are chicken, they don't even take the bus or train in the us. I agree French people are rather egoistic and don't care much for their fellow citizens, they prefere to look the other way. It's typical American as well, while in Scandinavian countries I noticed there is much more social solidarity.
I don't, only last week I defended some girls who were harassed by North-African thugs in the train. Those thugs are very coward, they'll never choose a group of men as a target, and because I look Russian they'll never harass me, they know Russians, Yugoslavs and Albanians fight back and are usually armed with knifes... actually the thirth generation north-Africans is a lost one, it is the only group which creates a lot of problems, harass people and just don't fit in society. they do no longer have the values and religion of their parents but aren't fit for a western society either. Not all of course, not even the majority, but enough to make Paris unsafe.

This just shows that the French have not changed since Generale Petain and Laval. They are weasels, cowards and by remaining silent they were accomplices.

come on, what are American bystanders doing whenever there is another shooting party, run!

Yesterday it was the French Jews, now it's beginning to be the French non-Jews. Mark my words. Within 10 years it will be the non French Jews who will be attacked. This is only the beginning.

blablablabla, the us is still a lot unsafer than France, I invite you to walk around in the worst neighbourhoods of paris dressed as an orthodox Jew, most likely nothing will happen as many orthodox Jews are living here.
Than you'll have to walk in the worst neighbourhoods of NY or LA, dressed up as a wealthy businessman, now let's see which one you will survive unharmed!!!!

Not in Israel. Here people help one another, as much as possible. (medical help in accident site, by un authorised person, may cause more harm then good).

that's right, because life in Israel is much harder and they're used to war. In former yugoslavia when NATO came to bomb them, ordinary citizens grabbed their kalashnikov, went on a roof and shot at the airplanes.

I guess it's true... two World Wars really did eliminate the gene for courage from the European stock.

since you're such a hero, you can join in as well.

Maybe in Europe. But in the USA and in Israel people help. I would not have intervened but I would have gone to seek assistance or pulled the emergency button.

that's what you say now! let's see how you would have reacted in reality.
in the us people are scared in the cities, they jump in their car and go directly to their destination, afraid to walk after dark or take public transport...

Yes, me too. How can anyone just stare and do nothing? That's beyond me.

everyone was afraid that something might happen to them as well, not a very nice reaction but unfortunately quite common.

Posts: 9,823 My family's Orthodox Rabbi was beat down in the street in the middle of the day in front of two dozen witnesses in a large French city in Normandy, last year. No one stepped forward before, during or after. He has lived there for over a decade and people know him. The same week the shul door was defaced and shattered and the official police response was to take a statement and file it away.

ok, fine, reality check, which city in normandy, when did it happen and in which street, by whom was he attacked and how, what's his name, is there a jewish community in this town, I want to know it all, and don't worry I'm going to find out if you tell me lies! here you can always consult the register of each police department as long as the information isn't confidential or secret, which is unlikely in this case.

David_in_NYC

07-11-2004, 04:19 PM

I would have killed the closest one on the spot then asked, "Who's next?"

Ahava

07-11-2004, 04:30 PM

I would have killed the closest one on the spot then asked, "Who's next?"

Would you? Nah..
I never experienced anything like this, but if I did I know I'd better not interfere myself, I must activate other people or distract the perpetrators. Anything, except for doing nothing. I'm not a hero nor do I like to pretend I am but I can't imagine myself sitting idly by. I do have the tendency to step up for people when necessary, I think I would. But not in such a way that I'm just the next victim.

I don't, only last week I defended some girls who were harassed by North-African thugs in the train.

Such a hero. ;)

actually the thirth generation north-Africans is a lost one, it is the only group which creates a lot of problems, harass people and just don't fit in society.

This statement probably makes you a racist according to Northlander.

Semsem

07-11-2004, 04:50 PM

Takeo have yuo even been to the USA? At least Jews can walk around our cities knowing they will not be attacked. And American gentiles know they won't be attacked for being Jewish.

As to being a liar: oh yeah Mr. bigshot Igor the russian: I really believe yuo that you saved those poor French girls.

May B yuo will get the Legion of Honour.

MGB8

07-11-2004, 04:52 PM

Takeo,

Your post was so pathetic it actually made me laugh out loud.

Aww... was the poor frenchie's poodle pride offended? Because your bretheren have the spine of a slug? Because the Iraqi army resisted longer than your army against the Nazi's? Because France is still a Vicci state?

Yes...those cowardly americans who prefer to drive than take public transit (gee..except tons of people take public transit where its convenient..we just have more roads and cheaper gas...)

Wow, takeo... you make me laugh..

David_in_NYC

07-11-2004, 04:54 PM

takeo

07-11-2004, 04:58 PM

Would you? Nah..
I never experienced anything like this, but if I did I know I'd better not interfere myself, I must activate other people or distract the perpetrators. Anything, except for doing nothing. I'm not a hero nor do I like to pretend I am but I can't imagine myself sitting idly by. I do have the tendency to step up for people when necessary, I think I would. But not in such a way that I'm just the next victim.

problem is that people are group-animals, they will wait for a sign, for the first to cross the bridge and do something, they don't know what to do themselves and so do nothing. It has been scientifically prooved, especially in situations which are uncommon.

Such a hero.

they were threatening and insulting them (pute, saloppe, etc. ) them but didn't physically attack them, I only stood up and asked "what's the problem" and they answered "connard, tais-toi" but a few seconds later they just backed off. The girls were nice but had to go further to Bordeaux... :(

This statement probably makes you a racist according to Northlander.

I don't think so, we should face reality, most of this kind of crimes and trouble is caused by young north-African men, not by the 100's of other nationalities who live in Western Europe.

Ahava

07-11-2004, 04:59 PM

If you know Arab psychology, then you know that the least risky thing is to stand up and fight back. I sure would have ripped the head off of at least one of those punks. People who need to gang up on innocent women are cowards of the most vile sort, they wouldn't dare to confront someone who would fight back. That's why they choose the most helpless to terrorize in the first place.

I'd stand by and do nothing when you ripped their heads off. ;)
Maybe I'd take a picture for my collection of "beautiful moments" or, to place it on the internet for everyone to see, 'beheaded Arab monsters'. :o

Ahava

07-11-2004, 05:06 PM

problem is that people are group-animals, they will wait for a sign, for the first to cross the bridge and do something, they don't know what to do themselves and so do nothing. It has been scientifically prooved, especially in situations which are uncommon.

I know, but someone has to be the first and I have faith others will follow. The hard thing is that you never know how you'd react in an extraordinary or dangerous situation. Maybe I'd faint from shock. :o

The girls were nice but had to go further to Bordeaux... :(

I see. :D

I don't think so, we should face reality, most of this kind of crimes and trouble is caused by young north-African men, not by the 100's of other nationalities who live in Western Europe.

I agree of course. tell that to that northlander.

takeo

07-11-2004, 05:39 PM

Takeo have yuo even been to the USA? At least Jews can walk around our cities knowing they will not be attacked. And American gentiles know they won't be attacked for being Jewish.

they will be attacked for being white if they walk in coloured poor neighbourhoods of big cities, that's a FACT.

As to being a liar: oh yeah Mr. bigshot Igor the russian: I really believe yuo that you saved those poor French girls.

I didn't do much, but my presence was apparently enough to scare those motherers away.

Your post was so pathetic it actually made me laugh out loud.

Aww... was the poor frenchie's poodle pride offended? Because your bretheren have the spine of a slug? Because the Iraqi army resisted longer than your army against the Nazi's? Because France is still a Vicci state?

Yes...those cowardly americans who prefer to drive than take public transit (gee..except tons of people take public transit where its convenient..we just have more roads and cheaper gas...)

Wow, takeo... you make me laugh..

I won't respond any longer to your insulting posts full of meaningless carbage, you would fit in well with those violent thugs who did this.

oh just one thing, you have cheaper gas perhaps, but not more roads, and you certainly have much worse public transportation, more expensive and less comfortable. (some large city M excluded)

tandem

07-11-2004, 07:38 PM

Americans especially are chicken, they don't even take the bus or train in the us.
yeah.. and... it's not because they're afraid to take a bus or train. cars are cheaper in north america. fuel is cheaper and flexible credit and leasing options give people incentive to buy cars. but even that doesn't stop people from taking public transit. in canada, in toronto, over 1 million people take public transit every day. yet i have never read about a jew, man or woman, who was attacked on a train or on a bus. same thing in the US. but i've read plenty of these things happening all over europe, and especially in france.

I agree French people are rather egoistic and don't care much for their fellow citizens,
well no takeo. if the french don't give a about their fellow countrymen, what makes one think france gives a about other people in the world? that's why the french must be ignored.

I don't, only last week I defended some girls who were harassed by North-African thugs in the train. Those thugs are very coward, they'll never choose a group of men as a target, and because I look Russian they'll never harass me, they know Russians, Yugoslavs and Albanians fight back and are usually armed with knifes...
yeah right.

actually the thirth generation north-Africans is a lost one, it is the only group which creates a lot of problems, harass people and just don't fit in society. they do no longer have the values and religion of their parents but aren't fit for a western society either. Not all of course, not even the majority, but enough to make Paris unsafe.
that's why you discard such filth

come on, what are American bystanders doing whenever there is another shooting party, run!
unless you're wearing a bulletproof vest and have a gun yourself to participate in the party running away would be a logical choice. still, it's rather pathetic of you to compare how a woman and her baby being harassed in front of everybody by a bunch of arab ers and yet no one even came to the aid of the woman and some shooting incident in the states. there is no relevance at all. i find it hard to understand how not one man on that train stepped forward and took care of those thugs. french men are pussies! this kind of ignorance and selfishness is just sick.

blablablabla, the us is still a lot unsafer than France, I invite you to walk around in the worst neighbourhoods of paris dressed as an orthodox Jew, most likely nothing will happen as many orthodox Jews are living here.
really? i heard different. orthodox jews in france are afraid to reveal their true identities, to walk the streets dressed like orthodox jews. in fact, even some secular jews who have a chai or magen david necklace are afraid to bear it in public because they might get beaten up.

Than you'll have to walk in the worst neighbourhoods of NY or LA, dressed up as a wealthy businessman, now let's see which one you will survive unharmed!!!!
what a load of

L@mplighterM

07-11-2004, 07:59 PM

I think physiologists refer to what happen here as "the Genovese Syndrome" at least I would classify it as such.

IMO one reason that people shy away from involvement is due to poor defined laws. If one wiped out these bastards you’d most likely be charged with murder for using excessive force.

When I was younger I walked where angels feared to thread, I rescued young girls from black pimps. Unfortunately our society seems to be evolving to the point where the perpetrators of crimes are often defined as the victims.

I don’t know for certain what I would have done in this particular situation but I’d like to believe that if French law permitted it I would have drawn my knife.

Party time!

Neubill

07-11-2004, 08:13 PM

Muslims are also under attack in France. (http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=7&aid=D83OVPQG0_story)

"The Interior Ministry said the woman was not Jewish, and police said she no longer lives in Paris' 16th district. That the attackers mistook their victim's identity did nothing to soften the horror in France, where assaults both Jews and Muslims have escalated over the past several years.

The Interior Ministry said Friday it had recorded 135 anti-Jewish acts in the first six months of this year, as well as 375 threats. The figure was nearly as high as the numbers from all of last year, when a total of 593 anti-Jewish acts or threats were registered.

Racist attacks, often against Muslims, also rose. There were 95 attacks and 161 threats through June, compared to a total of 232 such crimes reported last year.

France is home to the largest Jewish and Muslim populations in western Europe, and Muslims are often blamed for attacks on Jews.

The president of the umbrella group the French Council for the Muslim Faith, Dalil Boubakeur, called the attack "sickening" and "low-grade banditry." But he warned against blaming Muslims."

Semsem

07-11-2004, 09:33 PM

Oh yes Takeo I really believe you saved those French girls lives. Maybe you will receive the Legion of honour.

The only reason French are upset is that a non-Jew was attacked and it could be them next time.

red crabtree

07-11-2004, 11:39 PM

takeo I don't know what part of the states you've ever been to, but where I live there is no mass transit, so taking a bus or train is not an option. If I drive 30 miles to a larger town there is a bus system for only that town, it is a very rare event for any problems, I can't recall any in years. As far as taking a train my son does it regularly from that larger town to go see his girlfriend as it is much cheaper for him to do so than to drive the over 2 hours. No, attacks on the train are not usual.
The only time in my life I have ever been on a subway was in Washington DC, and I never felt afraid to get on. I was in Washington on two separate occasions, once by myself and once with my daughter. Both times I was on the subway, which is clean and from all appearances, safe. The time I was in DC alone I ended up getting hopelessly lost while leaving. I ended up in a part of town where I was the only white person to be seen. I got out at a gas station, got a few odd looks and asked the nearest person to me how the hell to get to Constitution Ave. He was an off duty cab driver who helpfully gave me very precise directions. Not a problem one. I think you watch too much TV that distorts the real America.
The vast marjority of America has no bus or train systems, there is too much space between cities and towns, not to mention the little rural communities. Mass transit has never picked up here because of that, the cost of not only building but of maintaining a transit system is prohibitive particularly when it is much easier and quicker to jump in your car and drive the vast highway system we have. No waiting on someone else's schedule.
There is a huge middle America that people like you have no idea what it is like. I can't imagine where I live ever having a young woman with a baby attacked and have no one go to the rescue. And the other thing, here we generally don't know if someone is Jewish, Catholic or whatever. We generally just don't care.
However it is not surprising to have a Frenchman point their finger at America and whatever ill's you believe we have instead of at least attempting to deal with the ill's your own country has. It's such a popular concept and all. Keep working at it and I bet you can even find a way to blame America for the ill's your country has instead of just trying to show that no matter what France is better than the US.
It's obvious you never meant a good ole boy here, or you'd know what he'd have done and wouldn't have been to stand and watch.

David_in_NYC

07-12-2004, 01:25 AM

originally posted by takeo
they will be attacked for being white if they walk in coloured poor neighbourhoods of big cities, that's a FACT.

I'm not sure that sentence translates well from the French... I think what you mean to say is "that's a product of my FEVERED IMAGINATION".

As someone who lives in one of these cities, has been in minority neighborhoods in many of them, and has actually lived in a black neighborhood for an extended period of time, I can testify that the only FACT is that you are TALKING OUT OF YOUR CHIRAC.

Sana

07-12-2004, 04:43 AM

~Don't worry David, If I was to ever see anything like that you can betcha my southern blood would have quickly made it to the boiling point...and I would have pounced on them like a wild animal, I would say David you take the big one I'll take the smaller dude, lol ~ :)

~That would not happen here in the south...no man down here would sit back and watch a woman being attacked like the obvious cowards on that train. ~

Sana

07-12-2004, 04:45 AM

~make sure it is a BIG KNIFE. ~

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 05:17 AM

ok, fine, reality check, which city in normandy, when did it happen and in which street, by whom was he attacked and how, what's his name, is there a jewish community in this town, I want to know it all, and don't worry I'm going to find out if you tell me lies! here you can always consult the register of each police department as long as the information isn't confidential or secret, which is unlikely in this case.

Actually since people's lives are at stake I would not tell you because I expect you would knowingly and willfully contribute to their danger. Your very tone indicates to me you would gleefully march at the front of lynchmob. All your mindless idiocy about how apparently you've walked through every bad neighborhood in the US - {please please regale us of your rides with the Bloods and the Crips on their daily drivebys} or least the one's you see on music videos and you know they are all more dangerous if you are dressed like you stepped out of an 18th century shetl are just that - idiocy.

So here's a tip - reality check fool; sit down, shut up and stop lying.

takeo

07-12-2004, 05:55 AM

yeah.. and... it's not because they're afraid to take a bus or train. cars are cheaper in north america. fuel is cheaper and flexible credit and leasing options give people incentive to buy cars. but even that doesn't stop people from taking public transit. in canada, in toronto, over 1 million people take public transit every day. yet i have never read about a jew, man or woman, who was attacked on a train or on a bus. same thing in the US. but i've read plenty of these things happening all over europe, and especially in france.

In Europe it's usually safe to take the train, I take the train everyday and only on rare occasions there are problems as I described above. besides in every train a responsible is present and in the more difficult neighbourhoods (since we also have trains connecting suburbs to the main centre) there is police and even the army in the trains and stations. But if there are problems always Algerians or moroccans are involved. (and not muslims in general, I never had any problem with Syrians, Turks, Pakistanese, Indonesians, etc. ) . The same is true for dancings and nightlife, always problems are created by groups of young algerian or moroccan men, that's why often they are not allowed to enter.

well no takeo. if the french don't give a about their fellow countrymen, what makes one think france gives a about other people in the world? that's why the french must be ignored.

the average us-citizen doesn't give a either about their fellow countrymen, in no other western country you can see so much poverty, even visible on the streets. I heard from an American friend if anyone on the street gets beeten up no car will stop to help you and police is nowhere around to be seen, the reason why in the night American cities are so empty.

unless you're wearing a bulletproof vest and have a gun yourself to participate in the party running away would be a logical choice. still, it's rather pathetic of you to compare how a woman and her baby being harassed in front of everybody by a bunch of arab ers and yet no one even came to the aid of the woman and some shooting incident in the states. there is no relevance at all. i find it hard to understand how not one man on that train stepped forward and took care of those thugs. french men are pussies! this kind of ignorance and selfishness is just sick.

I said it, what would you have done? Not in theory but in reality? kindly ask those thugs to stop harassing that women? get beaten up yourself?

really? i heard different. orthodox jews in france are afraid to reveal their true identities, to walk the streets dressed like orthodox jews. in fact, even some secular jews who have a chai or magen david necklace are afraid to bear it in public because they might get beaten up.

that's bs, there are plenty of orthodox Jews in paris, and the the ones who have been attacked all made it to the 8 o clock AND US news. An orthodox Jew getten beaten up in paris is big news in the us while thousands of Bangadeshi's who died isn't even mentioned... every such incident is a disgrace I know, and currently measures are taken, police presence is very high in certain risky areas, cameras are being installed, etc. but more than a million jews live in paris and only a few of them have ever been attacked, none have died. Any comparison to nazi anti-semitism is just plain BS.

what a load of

so why don't you do it? Why don't you walk around during the night in the dingy neighbourhoods of the us? in paris you can, you can be attacked, but this is not very likely, however I think in certain areas of big cities in the us people are even afraid to open their window during daytime! (such as in sint-petersburg, Florida when i was there, people said close your window, we're entering a dangerous neighbourhood, I was shocked!)

I think physiologists refer to what happen here as "the Genovese Syndrome" at least I would classify it as such.

IMO one reason that people shy away from involvement is due to poor defined laws. If one wiped out these bastards you’d most likely be charged with murder for using excessive force.

that's another reason, yes, if you defend yourself and the attacker dies, YOU will be charged.

When I was younger I walked where angels feared to thread, I rescued young girls from black pimps.

yeah right...

I don’t know for certain what I would have done in this particular situation but I’d like to believe that if French law permitted it I would have drawn my knife.

I'm not sure, I think you have the right to defend yourself without using excessive force.

takeo

07-12-2004, 05:58 AM

The only reason French are upset is that a non-Jew was attacked and it could be them next time.

such a bunch of cr*p

takeo I don't know what part of the states you've ever been to, but where I live there is no mass transit, so taking a bus or train is not an option. If I drive 30 miles to a larger town there is a bus system for only that town, it is a very rare event for any problems, I can't recall any in years. As far as taking a train my son does it regularly from that larger town to go see his girlfriend as it is much cheaper for him to do so than to drive the over 2 hours. No, attacks on the train are not usual.
The only time in my life I have ever been on a subway was in Washington DC, and I never felt afraid to get on. I was in Washington on two separate occasions, once by myself and once with my daughter. Both times I was on the subway, which is clean and from all appearances, safe. The time I was in DC alone I ended up getting hopelessly lost while leaving. I ended up in a part of town where I was the only white person to be seen. I got out at a gas station, got a few odd looks and asked the nearest person to me how the hell to get to Constitution Ave. He was an off duty cab driver who helpfully gave me very precise directions. Not a problem one. I think you watch too much TV that distorts the real America.
The vast marjority of America has no bus or train systems, there is too much space between cities and towns, not to mention the little rural communities. Mass transit has never picked up here because of that, the cost of not only building but of maintaining a transit system is prohibitive particularly when it is much easier and quicker to jump in your car and drive the vast highway system we have. No waiting on someone else's schedule.

public transport in the us really sucks, in villages there isn't even public transport or once every day, and even in the cities busses are rare.
problem is too much cars create congestion, it is bad for the environment, it is costly (especially if you use a car for you alone and don't share one) (perhaps less costly in the us but still you have to pay insurance, gasoline, taxes, no?). besides this people who can't afford a car and have to rely on public transport loose their mobility, and it's much more difficult for them to find work and be on time if they live in suburbs or other cheaper towns.

the cost of building a public transport system shouldn't be prohibitive if enough people use it and if it is good, reliable and regularly, as in most European countries. in paris you can go to any suburb in a matter of minutes, even if they're 50 km. from the city center, and in the night we have special night busses.

we also have a vast highway system, but it's congested already, (since France and most of Europe is much more densely populated than the us) and many people prefere to use public transport over their own car.

There is a huge middle America that people like you have no idea what it is like. I can't imagine where I live ever having a young woman with a baby attacked and have no one go to the rescue. And the other thing, here we generally don't know if someone is Jewish, Catholic or whatever. We generally just don't care.

we don't care either, really, France is an etnic mix as well, the most mixed country in Europe I think. Even Hitler said it "French are an inpure race" since they are mixed with Italians, Polish, jews, Germans, Russians, Spanish, portuguese, Greek, north-Africans, Africans, Asians, whatever you name it, and long before other European countries started to accomodate immigrants. And on the contrary to the us there is less etnic separation here, no ghetto's except algerian ones. we also have a bas-classe as we call it, a lower class, but it's much smaller and less poor than in the us. This can be prooved by statistics. 90% of French belong to the middle class, including most immigrants, but unfortunately not all.

However it is not surprising to have a Frenchman point their finger at America and whatever ill's you believe we have instead of at least attempting to deal with the ill's your own country has. It's such a popular concept and all. Keep working at it and I bet you can even find a way to blame America for the ill's your country has instead of just trying to show that no matter what France is better than the US.

listen if you have the right to criticise France I can point to you that the same ills exist in the us, in much larger quantities than in france. Before criticising someone look in the mirror that's my device...

It's obvious you never meant a good ole boy here, or you'd know what he'd have done and wouldn't have been to stand and watch.

That's what you say, I'm not sure you would have done anything in the given circumstances. most people are chicken you know, not only French.

As someone who lives in one of these cities, has been in minority neighborhoods in many of them, and has actually lived in a black neighborhood for an extended period of time, I can testify that the only FACT is that you are TALKING OUT OF YOUR CHIRAC.

fine, where did you live? tell me? did you walk there during the night? I'm interested in your experiences...
You claim to know everything about France yet I doubt you have ever been to a french suburb...

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 06:02 AM

Your comment about Orthodox Jews in the news is borderline "Jews run the media" paranoia straight out of some George Lincoln Rockwell inspired blog.

An orthodox Jew getten beaten up in paris is big news in the us while thousands of Bangadeshi's who died isn't even mentioned...

Or were you going for "It's the Jews' fault those poor brown people suffer"?

Mil

07-12-2004, 06:40 AM

What kills me where are the MASS DEMONSTRATIONS? Where is the PUBLIC? Where is EUROPE for God's sake?

I think it is time for Jews to start leaving Europe. I truely think that the United States should make a special provision for European Jews to come to the United States on favorable immigration bases just like it was with the Soviet Jews in the 80s and 90s (for which I am very grateful for); it will only add to the wealth of America. I am afraid that the further it goes the worst the situation will become. The European society is degrading in every possible way and in the process is becoming ignorant somehow confusing its moral obligations with political hatreds and understandings. I am sorry but if one cannot openly be a Jew then one should leave. Jews did that for centuries for exactly the reason of prosecution, harassment and intollerance and I think it is time for it to happen again.

I believe that Europe is not the place for Jews to live. Enough is enough. It is time to go.

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 06:46 AM

Apparently it's not safe if you're a goyishe who just lives near Jews. I think that's the real panic that French people feel. Perhaps they'll now demand Jews wear a yellow star just so they don't have to.

Of course Takeo our resident French Minister of Slum Tourism declares "I have never seen anything wrong"

Mil

07-12-2004, 06:50 AM

Med, I think Takeo just has low standards of what is wrong.

takeo

07-12-2004, 07:33 AM

What kills me where are the MASS DEMONSTRATIONS? Where is the PUBLIC? Where is EUROPE for God's sake?

Why? Because a woman has been beaten up? This unfortunately happens everywhere in the world, including in the us, on a daily base. In the us every few weeks or so there's a mass shooting when some nuts kill a few dozens of people in a school or on the street.

I think it is time for Jews to start leaving Europe.

WHY???????????

I truely think that the United States should make a special provision for European Jews to come to the United States on favorable immigration bases just like it was with the Soviet Jews in the 80s and 90s (for which I am very grateful for); it will only add to the wealth of America.

it won't work, most French Jews don't like American culture, which is too superficial and devoid of culture, too capitalist. Besides working conditions in the us are much worse than in France, food in the us tastes like plastic and French Jews are both culturally and culinary among the most cultivated in the world. and, honestly, who wants to change paris for one of the us-cities who all look alike? The climate could be a reason, but we also have our sunny regions only a few hours away by ultra-rapid train (tgv).

I am afraid that the further it goes the worst the situation will become. The European society is degrading in every possible way and in the process is becoming ignorant somehow confusing its moral obligations with political hatreds and understandings. I am sorry but if one cannot openly be a Jew then one should leave. Jews did that for centuries for exactly the reason of prosecution, harassment and intollerance and I think it is time for it to happen again.

you don't live in France mill, don't compare France or western Europe to Russia please. in everyday life Jews do not suffer from discrimination or harassment, almost a quarter of French intellectuals and elite is Jewish, and they know your concern is based on wrong information and a wrong perception of the real situation here.

I believe that Europe is not the place for Jews to live. Enough is enough. It is time to go.

I'm really disappointed in you, I tought you were more realistic, this is just plain BS and if you would say so to a crowd of French Jews they would make fun of you big time.

Med, I think Takeo just has low standards of what is wrong.

No, but I don't think one human is worth more than another one, I think the life of an African or Asian is worth the same as the life of a french jew or Western citizen in general. What happened to this woman is very bad but much worse things happen in the world, it isn't a perfect world you know, and all this attention for this woman is exaggerated compared to all the other terrible things that happen in the world without anyone mentioning it.

Ahava

07-12-2004, 07:41 AM

Funny how everyone is bragging about how they saved little girls, and how they don't believe others did ("Yeah right!"), and to see how the French (takeo) slags off America and the Americans (...) bash France...really entertaining. :D

Mil: the way you describe it it sounds like a warzone. It really isn't.

red crabtree

07-12-2004, 08:13 AM

takeo

07-12-2004, 08:32 AM

takeo, where I live it is rural. It would be extremely cost prohibitive to think public transportation would work. I live in a village of some 1500 people, actually I live outside that village in the country. Main street is 4 blocks long, and there is definately not a stop light to be seen. The closest larger town is 30 miles away. A car is not a luxery, it is a necessity. I drive nearly an hour to get to work as I chose to work in a larger hospital where there is more opportunity for me as a nurse. The smaller rural hospitals near me are decent enough places, but they do not keep critical patients or even anything that requires much. Those patients go to a larger hospital. I also make substancially more money at the larger hospital.
Understand in the area I live in there are more dirt roads than there are paved ones. Public transportation is just not on anyone's agenda here. There is one small bus that does run that is a county run program so that those who are elderly or handicapped to get to a doctor appt. or do grocery shopping, but for the most part we believe it is not up to the govn't, Federal/state or county, to provide us with a way to get around or to go to work. One works for what they get. Also understand that it's not as if we feel like we are being shafted because we don't have public transportation, we like it that way. We like our cars, we like our freedom to come and go when we want to, not on someone else's schedule. We like being able to listen to whatever radio station we like, or whatever CD we like as loud or as quiet as we like. Our vehicles are extensions of our personality many times. The car is our freedom. We don't want public transportation. If we did than it wouldn't be necessary for the govn't to bail out amtrak every time you turn around. The lack of public transport is not poor govn't or should it be said oh the poor Americans don't have blah, blah blah. We like it that way.
And since you seem focused on shootings in this country, had something like what happened in France happened here, then someone could have just pulled out a gun and shot the f***er's don't you think? Or perhaps gun toting American's is a myth too.

we have such villages here as well in remote rural areas of France, and all of them have public transport at least a few times a day. actually what you're saying is, the people who do not have the means or possibility to buy or drive a car, this is indeed one of the features of an egoistic society.
we have our freedom, our car, as well (at least most people or families in rural areas have one) AND we have public transport, which isn't only for the people who don't have cars but equally for the people who do not like to spend too much money on transport, have only one car each family or simply like to relax when moving around without worrying about traffic rules, congestions, parking fees or mad drivers. (which also mean they can drink a few glasses of whine or beer without bringing their own and other people's safety in danger)

and concerning liberal gun laws as in the us, if this would be the case in France those thugs could have shot her instead of harassing her. In France fortunately not everyone carries a gun around.

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 08:48 AM

The last time I checked about 2x as many French Jews left France for North America compared to Israel. I'm sure they don't ALL live above some boulangerie on St. Catherine street in Montreal.

PS the biggest Velvet Elvis I ever saw was @ a sidewalk bazar near St. Dennis

Ahava

07-12-2004, 08:48 AM

we have such villages here as well in remote rural areas of France, and all of them have public transport at least a few times a day. actually what you're saying is, the people who do not have the means or possibility to buy or drive a car, this is indeed one of the features of an egoistic society.

People who don't have the capibility to drive or buy a car, shouldn't live in the middle of nowhere.
France's public transport SUCKS. I guess it's not possible to get connections everywhere like in Holland, because France is much bigger and has miles of land without anyone living there. But even around big cities it's hard to get around. I had to turn down multiple apartment offers around Nantes, because there simply was no possibility to get into the centre without a car.

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 08:51 AM

Europeans for one thing think everyplace in the USA is exactly the same and two - rarely appreciate how much physically larger our country is compared to theirs. You could easily drive for 4-5 days from one side of the US to the other. Such things don't lend themselves very well to urban style mass transit.

And why does the TGV cost more than airfare inside of France?

Neubill

07-12-2004, 08:57 AM

Takeo is obviously still bitter about France getting their butts manhandled by a bunch of Greeks. :D

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 09:03 AM

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/europe/07/12/france.attack.reut/story.swastikas.ap.jpg

Ancient archeological site in Paris. Scholars believe the curious symbols say "We love the Jews".

takeo

07-12-2004, 09:11 AM

People who don't have the capibility to drive or buy a car, shouldn't live in the middle of nowhere.

many people don't want to leave their villages they were born in, why should they?

France's public transport SUCKS. I guess it's not possible to get connections everywhere like in Holland, because France is much bigger and has miles of land without anyone living there. But even around big cities it's hard to get around. I had to turn down multiple apartment offers around Nantes, because there simply was no possibility to get into the centre without a car.

that's perhaps because you don't know how it is organised. Of course public transport in Belgium or holland is better, in belgium you even have mini-busses you can call like a taxi for the price of an ordinary bus trip. But for you it's much easier to organise, since your countries are so densily populated and you don't have mountains.
I agree public transport in Paris is superior to anywhere else in france, but any major French city has an extensive bus system, most have tramway and metro system as well. The villages are poorly served, but at least once or twice a day there is a bus. this is worse than Holland I can imagine but much better than in the US.

Europeans for one thing think everyplace in the USA is exactly the same and two - rarely appreciate how much physically larger our country is compared to theirs. You could easily drive for 4-5 days from one side of the US to the other. Such things don't lend themselves very well to urban style mass transit.

even in poor and very large sparely populated nations such as Russia every village is served at least once a day (except in the very north of Siberia where there are no roads)

And why does the TGV cost more than airfare inside of France?

it doesn't for most people, all kind of social tarifs exist, but if you buy a ticket without reduction yes it's quite expensive. and airfare in France and Europe is cheaper than in the us as well. (for example ryanair)

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 09:16 AM

link please.

Ahava

07-12-2004, 09:32 AM

many people don't want to leave their villages they were born in, why should they?

Because they can't get to the towns otherwise. :rolleyes:

that's perhaps because you don't know how it is organised.
I'm not actually stupid, I asked the people who live there, when they say there's no bus that must be true, they must know it.

Of course public transport in Belgium or holland is better, in belgium you even have mini-busses you can call like a taxi for the price of an ordinary bus trip. But for you it's much easier to organise, since your countries are so densily populated and you don't have mountains.

I realise that.

I agree public transport in Paris is superior to anywhere else in france, but any major French city has an extensive bus system, most have tramway and metro system as well. The villages are poorly served, but at least once or twice a day there is a bus. this is worse than Holland I can imagine but much better than in the US.

Yes, in Paris it's really good. As long as you don't run into Arab thugs, that is. Especially the metro and RER, system like in London.
I have no idea what it's like in the US, but it being a much bigger country and less government interference, I suspect it's much poorer, especially on the countryside.

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 09:39 AM

Ergo we have lots of roads and cars to drive on them.

Mediocrates

07-12-2004, 09:40 AM

Wait next we'll hear about how the Baghdad subway was the finest in the world...until you know what.....

Neubill

07-12-2004, 11:54 AM

'tees, it's not good to feed the trolls.

Ahava

07-12-2004, 03:54 PM

I couldn't find this in English yet, but it's shocking enough if true, so I translated it from Dutch myself.

Antisemitic attack on Française in train possibly made up

The story of a young French mother who claims to have been seriously assaulted by an antisemitic gang in a train stirred disgust in whole France last weekend. However, on Monday more and more doubt casted over her story.

The police still haven't found any witnesses three days after the claimed assault, although the woman said at least 20 people could see what happened to her. Also, there are no images on the security cameras of the station where the men got off the train that match with the description of the men.

Moreover, it's not the first time that the woman has gone to the police saying she was attacked, French radio channel France-Info and TV channel LCI reported. According to the LCI, the woman has gone to the police 6 times before. The police didn't want to confirm that.

The woman claimed friday morning to be attacked by six young men with knives, who cut in her clothes and drew swastikas on her belly. Her baby would have been there too. The reportedly North African men would have mistakenly thought she was Jewish.

The 'victim' had a meeting with under-minister for Victim Affairs Nicole Guedj on Monday. She strongly called upon witnesses to report themselves. A few hundreds of people held a protest manifestation in Paris.

source : De Telegraaf

Ahava

07-12-2004, 04:11 PM

In French aswell:
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3226,36-372408,0.html

"des doutes ont surgi sur les déclarations de la victime."

doubts started to cast over her declarations.

<off topic>
While clicking through on LeMonde I came across this interesting link.
http://www.herodote.net/motantisemitisme0.htm
'Interesting' how the word antisemitism is being examined, is it that hard to just accept the meaning of the word is "hatred of Jews" and noone but Jews?
The last sentence surprised me too.
"En 1953, Staline accusera les médecins juifs d'être à l'origine du «complot des blouses blanches» et c'est seulement la mort qui l'empêchera de déporter tous les juifs de son pays."

So, if it weren't for the death of Stalin, all Jews would have been deported from there? Anyone to comment anything on that? It's an interesting thought I'd never considered.
</off topic>

takeo

07-12-2004, 06:46 PM

it's such a strange story, I wouldn't be surprised if it was entirely made up.

So, if it weren't for the death of Stalin, all Jews would have been deported from there? Anyone to comment anything on that? It's an interesting thought I'd never considered.

I think it's BS, it's not a recent rumour, noone has ever found any proof for it.

Semsem

07-12-2004, 07:16 PM

You can't trust the French authorities. A year ago a respected Rabbi was attacked and the French police tried to pretend it was all made up.

L@mplighterM

07-12-2004, 08:59 PM

You can't trust the French authorities. A year ago a respected Rabbi was attacked and the French police tried to pretend it was all made up.

You’re quite right French authorities cant be trusted.

David_in_NYC

07-12-2004, 09:28 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to see the French try and cover it up... it would be true to their cheese-eating surrender monkey Vichy ways.

humus_sapiens

07-12-2004, 11:52 PM

Police said the attackers erroneously assumed the woman was Jewish because she was living in Paris' posh 16th district.

This asks to be on a poster saying: If you don't want your daughter or mother to be next, stand with us.

Just another validation that antisemitism
a) does not require Jews to be present, and
b) making some areas Judenrein or demanding Jews to stop defending themselves won't make the problem disappear.

From another weblog:
>The practical French solution would be to force the Jews to wear yellow stars.

Ahava

07-13-2004, 05:01 AM

it's such a strange story, I wouldn't be surprised if it was entirely made up.

The first time you jumped into this thread was to attack the Americans (while defending the French: not you guys, but the Americans are the real cowards).
The second time you jump in this thread is to immediately confirm the rumours that maybe it might be made up.
Just something that struck me.

Mediocrates

07-13-2004, 05:05 AM

takeo is a placed propagandist.

Mil

07-13-2004, 06:00 AM

Posted by Takeo:

I think it's BS, it's not a recent rumour, noone has ever found any proof for it.

I understand your love of Russia and of its crystal clear history is very strong but unfortunately Stalin's death saved the Jewish community of the Soviet Union.

It is not B.S. or a rumour but a very well proven chain of historical events. If you are really interested the book is:

"Stalin's Last Crime : The Plot Against the Jewish Doctors, 1948-1953" Jonathan Brent, Vladimir Naumov

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006019524X/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-8059639-8073440?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I read the book. It is a very-very-very well researched book; at least to my personal historical standards.

However, before you read the book above I really-really-really recommend a book written by Brothers Vainer which I happened to find in FRENCH!!!!!

"L'Evangile du bourreau" or in Russian "Evangile ot Polacha" by Arkady and Georgi Vainer.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/2070749096/qid=1089726773/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/103-8059639-8073440?v=glance&s=books

It's Vainer's fiction take on the "Doctor's Plot." I promise it's a book unlike anything you read before.

Olivier

07-13-2004, 09:38 AM

she confessed : the story was entirely made up

Agression du RER : la jeune femme a menti

La jeune femme qui avait porté plainte pour une agression antisémite vendredi dans le RER D aurait avoué lors de sa garde à vue mardi après-midi avoir tout inventé, selon la police. Elle aurait notamment admis avoir dessiné les croix gammées sur son ventre avec l'aide de son concubin. Cet homme a lui aussi été placé en garde à vue. (AFP)she carved the swastika on her belly with the help of her boyfriend

Ahava

07-13-2004, 09:54 AM

minusthejihad

07-13-2004, 11:08 AM

she confessed : the story was entirely made up

she carved the swastika on her belly with the help of her boyfriend

So how is her cooking?

MGB8

07-13-2004, 11:14 AM

If this woman made up this story, then she is deranged.

On the French side, maybe, just maybe, the French are waking up. Maybe French pride has a use. We can only hope.

Oh Jerusalem

07-13-2004, 11:18 AM

This woman could have use as a living display in a Stokholm art museum.

Mediocrates

07-13-2004, 11:18 AM

minusthejihad

07-13-2004, 11:31 AM

I was just going to say:

1. I'm glad this deranged woman IS NOT Jewish!
2. I'm glad this deranged woman IS French!

KSO

07-13-2004, 12:47 PM

I was just going to say:

1. I'm glad this deranged woman IS NOT Jewish!
2. I'm glad this deranged woman IS French!

Well now the police all over the world can ignore antisemitic attacks with the simple answer "They are just seeking atention".

minusthejihad

07-13-2004, 12:53 PM

Yeah, except who's seeking the attention here in your opinion?

KSO

07-13-2004, 01:01 PM

Yeah, except who's seeking the attention here in your opinion?

the crazy woman...

Olivier

07-13-2004, 03:23 PM

It was Jewday in the paper today. A page with only Jewnews. Why are we so interesting?
One article was about this particular incident questioning whether it was true or not, and characterizing the various reactions to the incident.
Second was about the general rise in antisemitic attacks on Jews in France.
Third was a piece about how Israel tried to get the French Jews to emigrate to Israel.
Then there was a photo of the demonstration that was a reaction to the RER-incident.

The reaction in France after the attack showed me that the French are NOT all apathic and careless. All politicians strongly condemned the acts, one even more emotional than another. The story made big headlines. People gathered for a demonstration in Paris.This in fact is not news.

Just days ago, Chirac made a landmark appeal to the nation to fight anti-Semitism.

Don't try to search the forum for "chambon" or antyhing related, it just does not match with the agenda of the political trend represented on this forum: a campaign of unabated anti-french hatred.

just in case, the meager coverage by haaretz (they did not even bother to write an article themselves, they just copied reuter).

Chirac urges French to fight racism
By Reuters

LE CHAMBON-SUR-LIGNON - French President Jacques Chirac appealed to his nation yesterday to do more to fight racism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia and homophobia which he said were threatening national unity.

In a speech in this southern village which protected Jews in World War II, Chirac told public officials to lead the fight against "the darkest side of human nature" and urged ordinary people to teach their children the dangers of fanaticism.

Anti-Semitic attacks in particular have risen in recent months and Chirac's comments highlighted his concern that widening divisions in French society are damaging France's image. They could also dent his own record as head of state.

"Discrimination, anti-Semitism, racism - all kinds of racism are spreading insidiously," Chirac told a crowd gathered under rain-soaked plane trees. "All these acts reflect the darkest side of human nature. They are unworthy of France. I will do everything to stop them. In the face of the risk of everyday indifference and passivity, I appeal solemnly for vigilance from each French woman and man."

Chirac appealed to government officials, local and regional leaders, teachers, police and judges to set an example. He urged state prosecutors to appeal against any sentences they consider too lenient for racist, homophonic or xenophobic crimes.

Standing in front of the French and European Union flags, Chirac said France could be a more tolerant and united country, where people showed more respect for each other's differences.

Chirac's speech was one of his longest in recent months on internal political matters. He regards guaranteeing national unity as his responsibility as head of state, and doing so could be especially important if he decides to seek a third term in an election due in 2007.

He delivered the speech in Le Chambon-sur-Lignon because it is a symbol of tolerance after villagers saved thousands of Jews fleeing the Nazis or their French collaborators. Some residents hid Jews in their homes for years. The village is in a mountainous region about 90 km southwest of Lyon.

In recent weeks, neo-Nazis have spray-painted swastikas and hate slogans on Jewish, Muslim and Christian cemeteries in the eastern region of Alsace. Many of France's five million Muslims are also unhappy, following a ban on headscarves in state schools that comes into force in September.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=449345

Mediocrates

07-13-2004, 03:32 PM

Great speech. Apre moi le deluge and all that.

I just love it when the most powerful leader in a modern society whines and wrings his hands imploring someone to do something. What next? A UN resolution? Installation of several Islamic imams over "Affairs over the Jewish Question in the Republic"?

Donna

07-13-2004, 03:35 PM

Mediocrates

07-13-2004, 03:46 PM

I zam zo tired. Zo ver'ry tired. I cannut eefen light my Galouise.

Semsem

07-13-2004, 06:55 PM

<<Just days ago, Chirac made a landmark appeal to the nation to fight anti-Semitism.Don't try to search the forum for "chambon" or antyhing related, it just does not match with the agenda of the political trend represented on this forum: a campaign of unabated anti-french hatred.<<

So what? The French Courts do nothing. And yes I detest any country that has a corrupt anti-Israeli, biased, unjust foreign policy that is pro Arab and encourages the destruction of Israel.

David_in_NYC

07-13-2004, 08:30 PM

Olivier, the thought that Chirac is actually doing something about anti-semitism is laughable.

Let's face it, Chiraq and the rest of the French establishment are cowering in fear of the Muslims that they are allowing to inherit your country. This thread connects everything about Chirac - his history, his domestic policies, and his foreign policies.

Not that the French wouldn't be cowering in fear anyway out of their basic nature...

Sana

07-14-2004, 04:34 AM

France: A "Anti-Semitic" Hoax ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ French police have announced the detention of an unnamed woman who alleged that she was the victim of a horrific anti-Jewish assault on a Paris train. "The 23-year-old woman said six men cut her clothes and drew swastikas on her body, accusing her of being Jewish." The notional thugs also threatened her infant. The BBC said the lurid attack had "stunned France" and led to the usual outpouring of self-righteous fury and pro-Zionist hysteria. President Jacques Chirac expressed “horror” and condemned the incident, while Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin vowed to apprehend the assailants and stated that the attack was “more serious because it was marked by racism and anti-Semitism”, unlike the numerous non-White crimes French immigration policy has unleashed on Whites. The incident occurred in a climate of paranoia, reflected in President Chirac's wild pledge to smash politically-incorrect expressions, with world Zionism especially targeting France for negative attention. Such hoaxes occur frequently, especially when pro-White organizations make inroads, as happened recently in the French elections, with the pro-White Front National taking numerous votes off the conservative President Chirac. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3891425.stm

Mediocrates

07-14-2004, 04:36 AM

It's a tilde rich environment.

Olivier

07-14-2004, 04:43 AM

Ahava

07-14-2004, 04:50 AM

Olivier, the thought that Chirac is actually doing something about anti-semitism is laughable.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's true. I think it's hard to act against antisemitism, but Chirac does make an effort to do whatever he can do. What do you base the statement on that he does nothing about it?

I am David

07-14-2004, 09:02 AM

Wow what a bitch for faking it. Now this gives an excuse for every snobby Frenchman to say "Oh it was faked!!!" everytime an anti-Semitic attack happens again. She should be fined big time.

Oh Jerusalem

07-14-2004, 09:15 AM

Wow what a bitch for faking it. Now this gives an excuse for every snobby Frenchman to say "Oh it was faked!!!" everytime an anti-Semitic attack happens again. She should be fined big time.
Make the punishment fit the crime! :mad:

Circumcise her. :o

MichaelC

07-14-2004, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by I am David

Wow what a bitch for faking it. Now this gives an excuse for every snobby Frenchman to say "Oh it was faked!!!" everytime an anti-Semitic attack happens again. She should be fined big time.

Is it possible that the point of this whole thing was to create an environment in which anti-semitic attacks can be easily dismissed? Only real explanation that I can conjure for such an act.

Ahava

07-14-2004, 09:41 AM

Is it possible that the point of this whole thing was to create an environment in which anti-semitic attacks can be easily dismissed? Only real explanation that I can conjure for such an act.

I have a way more logical explanation, some sort of psychological disorder, or personality disorder which makes her seek attention and fantasise in a compulsive way.

Olivier

07-14-2004, 11:40 AM

Is it possible that the point of this whole thing was to create an environment in which anti-semitic attacks can be easily dismissed? Only real explanation that I can conjure for such an act.Is it possible that the point of this whole thing was to create an environment in which anti-france attacks can be easily made? Only real explanation that I can conjure for such an act. :rolleyes:

Ahava

07-14-2004, 11:47 AM

Is it possible that the point of this whole thing was to create an environment in which anti-france attacks can be easily made? Only real explanation that I can conjure for such an act. :rolleyes:

Why does it seem like it was my statement up there? I don't want to be associated with that statement because I do not support it at all, can you please edit it? Thanks.

edit:merci

Northlander

07-14-2004, 02:48 PM

Is it possible that the point of this whole thing was to create an environment in which anti-france attacks can be easily made? Only real explanation that I can conjure for such an act.

:)

Not that it matters that the whole story was fake. Now you´ll have to live with the image of all french women being deranged AND that arabs in the paris metro carves svastikas in jewish women.

I think we can start to talk about a real frenchophobia over in USA right now.

I cant resist tough to drop a french joke I´ve heard just to show how neutral I stand in this little clash between your two great nations and to create a more happy atmosphere. This one I actually found funny.

Q: Why are there trees planted along every french road?
A: So that the german soldiers can rest in the shadows.

Mediocrates

07-14-2004, 02:54 PM

I thought it was to provide urinals.

Ahava

07-14-2004, 03:01 PM

Just what I was afraid of :( :

After fake anti-Semitic attack, Jews see sympathy turning into criticism

First the already well-known facts, then this interesting part:

While Muslim leaders had expressed solidarity with the Jewish community after initial reports of the attack, the woman’s detention provoked a sharp change in tone.

In a statement issued Tuesday, the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between Peoples — an organization that traditionally has had sour relations with the organized Jewish community — said that “stigmatized populations in the suburbs had been thrown out to pasture.”

The group also blasted “irresponsible statements used by people who profited from this fabrication to once more instrumentalize anti-Semitism against a specific population and to increase intercommunal tensions.”

The thing is, this incident turned out to be untrue, but it could have easily been true.
No freaking reason whatsoever to again blame the Jews! :mad:

After the embarrassment of this incident, the Jewish community must face the possibility that government ministers will be far more reticent in the future to immediately condemn anti-Semitic acts.
Whatcha gonna do......

takeo

07-14-2004, 03:48 PM

The second time you jump in this thread is to immediately confirm the rumours that maybe it might be made up.

I didn't confirm it, I just said it could be true. But actually it IS true as confirmed today by the women herself (of course according to semsem nand medio she will be drugged/tortured/violated by the French police...)

MichaelC

07-14-2004, 03:53 PM

originally posted by oliver

Is it possible that the point of this whole thing was to create an environment in which anti-france attacks can be easily made? Only real explanation that I can conjure for such an act.

Nothing is easier than to attack the french. They cannot readily defend themselves and generally just hide from their betters anyway.

takeo

07-14-2004, 03:56 PM

I understand your love of Russia and of its crystal clear history is very strong but unfortunately Stalin's death saved the Jewish community of the Soviet Union.

how do you know so sure?
Stalin (commander in chief of de Red Army) liberated 100's of 1000's of Jews from the concentration camps. In the meanwhile the Bush family were trading with nazi-Germany untill the late 30's...

"Stalin's Last Crime : The Plot Against the Jewish Doctors, 1948-1953" Jonathan Brent, Vladimir Naumov

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...e=ATVPDKIKX0DER

who ar those people? I've read so many anti-communist literature based on hot air instead of rel historic investigation.

However, before you read the book above I really-really-really recommend a book written by Brothers Vainer which I happened to find in FRENCH!!!!!

ok, whch title?

"L'Evangile du bourreau" or in Russian "Evangile ot Polacha" by Arkady and Georgi Vainer.

ok

La jeune femme qui avait porté plainte pour une agression antisémite vendredi dans le RER D aurait avoué lors de sa garde à vue mardi après-midi avoir tout inventé, selon la police. Elle aurait notamment admis avoir dessiné les croix gammées sur son ventre avec l'aide de son concubin. Cet homme a lui aussi été placé en garde à vue. (AFP)

yep, it has been confirmed

It was Jewday in the paper today. A page with only Jewnews. Why are we so interesting?
One article was about this particular incident questioning whether it was true or not, and characterizing the various reactions to the incident.
Second was about the general rise in antisemitic attacks on Jews in France.
Third was a piece about how Israel tried to get the French Jews to emigrate to Israel.
Then there was a photo of the demonstration that was a reaction to the RER-incident.
The reaction in France after the attack showed me that the French are NOT all apathic and careless. All politicians strongly condemned the acts, one even more emotional than another. The story made big headlines. People gathered for a demonstration in Paris.

exactly, France isn't Russia or an anti-semitic hellhole as people who don't know France at all are bragging around.

takeo

07-14-2004, 04:10 PM

Well I sleep fine knowing she isn't Jewish. You crazy French for the most part deserve one another. So now what will happen is that every attack will first be questioned and didled over because now the French don't want to be seen as:

a) looking stupid following up on false claims.
b) helping the Jews to begin with.

Seems to me that if anyone had anything to gain in fabricating this its the ziphead fascists, Islamic hate gangs and vogueishly ennervated French civil service.

whatever you will still hate the French whatever they do or don't do, some people will always complain, my advice is go to live in Alasca.

Viva La Ennui !!!

but before becoming a specialist on France the first step would be to learn some propper French...

Just days ago, Chirac made a landmark appeal to the nation to fight anti-Semitism.

Don't try to search the forum for "chambon" or antyhing related, it just does not match with the agenda of the political trend represented on this forum: a campaign of unabated anti-french hatred.

just in case, the meager coverage by haaretz (they did not even bother to write an article themselves, they just copied reuter).

exactly, but France criticised the US for invading Iraq, inciting terrorism and lying to the world, and Israel for ignoring human rights and UNSC-resolutions, so they MUST be the worst anti-semites walking around on this earth...

So what? The French Courts do nothing. And yes I detest any country that has a corrupt anti-Israeli, biased, unjust foreign policy that is pro Arab and encourages the destruction of Israel.

this is an illustration of wht I wrote above, we criticised israel so we must be anti-semitic. I can tell you that my israeli friends are more critical for israeli policy than i am, and they are right, this belligerent policy has prevented peace for decades, I only hope people will see that ending the occupation, entirely, is the only option for peace.
Youthe us can embargo Cuba or invade countries because they are not observing human rights or ignoring un-resolutions (according to you), you are criticising dozens of countries for infractions minor to the ones committed by israel, but noone has the right to criticise israel?

Let's face it, Chiraq and the rest of the French establishment are cowering in fear of the Muslims that they are allowing to inherit your country. This thread connects everything about Chirac - his history, his domestic policies, and his foreign policies

actually Chirac is conservative and not popular among the Arab minority in our country, which mainly supports the socialist opposition.

Olivier

07-14-2004, 11:49 PM

:)

Not that it matters that the whole story was fake. Now you´ll have to live with the image of all french women being deranged AND that arabs in the paris metro carves svastikas in jewish women.

I think we can start to talk about a real frenchophobia over in USA right now.No doubt the US opinion is not well-informed of foreign matters and very easy to influence. In the USA today, even huge lies can easily make it to the wider opinion (just look at the invasion of Iraq).

..... but the next problem is to expose where this anti-french campaign originates

Mediocrates

07-15-2004, 04:32 AM

It originates with arrogance like yours. [Gee I hope I spelled everything correctly - you how us dumb no shoe wearing hillbillies are...]

Mediocrates

07-15-2004, 04:33 AM

Just think how BELIEVEABLE the story was...even if it turned out not to be true. That's where it comes from.

MGB8

07-15-2004, 06:45 AM

Olivier

07-15-2004, 10:26 AM

Of course, the Anti-French "campaign" is really just a response to the anti-Americanism of France - a longstanding anti-Americanism that goes back at least to the cold war.
I'm afraid the level and quantity of anti-french hatred is much beyond what you can find in france against the US. On this forum people are *extremely* aggressive and routinely use false information. Sometimes it's not even information it's only hatred and insults.

I really do not see where you intend to go by spreading so much hatred. But at least, please don't complain about hatred against israel. You are haters.

After all, it is Jaque Chirac that has talked extensively about challenging the "anglo-saxon" hegemony...
So what? You think the Bush administration is not unilateral enough? That the result of these decisions imposed on the world is so brilliant? France just doesn't accept to obey Bush.

Lets not forget that 80% of the major media in Iraq is owned by France's 2 largest military firms....I think it's another false information, but please tell me more.

You want the difference between the US, the UK and France? In the US many people challenged their position on the war, and there was ongoing debate and introspection. France, arrogant in their infalibilty, has only recently begun to question its own anti-war campaign.There was several pretty strong pro-war campaigns, actually. Lead by Pierre Lelouche (right-wing) Bernard Kouchner (left) and various intellectuals. But clearly the overwhelming majority was against this mad invasion.

And as you know the strongest (if not the loudest :) ) opposition to the invasion of iraq originates in Germany. And opposition to war signalled the emergence of a european-wide opinion, it's not a french phenomenon.

As for your "recently begun questionning its own anti-war campaign", you must be joking. Everything proves the "slam dunk" information given by the US were phony, and that the slip of iraq into chaos is in fact accelerating... so it's the opposite which is happening.

remember Chirac said he would send troops right away in case the presence of WMD proved true. Of course the commitment was not reflect in the US media. It was right at the start of the invasion and... you were talking about arrogance? "arrogance" it's the most striking attribute of Mr Bush.

I think you are underestimating the importance of repairing the divide that has been created between western nations. Maybe, you should set yourself this major task instead of conducting this hate campaign.
You won't get more unity by repeatedly insulting us. You rather create some kind of irreversibility and more of the hatred you pretend to fight.
Adding more hate only serves the terrorists and chaos.

Or is it in fact the real goal of haters here?

?

Mil

07-15-2004, 11:14 AM

Posted by Oliver:

I'm afraid the level and quantity of anti-french hatred is much beyond what you can find in france against the US.

Source.

On this forum people are *extremely* aggressive and routinely use false information. Sometimes it's not even information it's only hatred and insults.

As you said before, to me, that I would have to talk politics everytime I visit France. In the US nobody gives....

I really do not see where you intend to go by spreading so much hatred. But at least, please don't complain about hatred against israel. You are haters.

I hate Europe. You killed half of my family - no offense.

So what? You think the Bush administration is not unilateral enough? That the result of these decisions imposed on the world is so brilliant? France just doesn't accept to obey Bush.

The problem is not who obeys who. The issue is that of POLITICAL COMMITMENT. While France screams and yells it does not offer absolutely any alternatives and does not show any signs of any kind of political commitment. I would respect your leadership if France would offer an alternative. It did not.

And as you know the strongest (if not the loudest ) opposition to the invasion of iraq originates in Germany. And opposition to war signalled the emergence of a european-wide opinion, it's not a french phenomenon.

Oh yeah!!!! I remember when certain politicians were making careers out of American foreign policy. Amazing. Imagine an American president making a career off French foreign policy. But though it does make me feel good that my country has such an enfluence and yours doesn't.

remember Chirac said he would send troops right away in case the presence of WMD proved true. Of course the commitment was not reflect in the US media. It was right at the start of the invasion and... you were talking about arrogance? "arrogance" it's the most striking attribute of Mr Bush.

As I said before no matter who would be the president post 9/11 we still would be in Iraq.

I think you are underestimating the importance of repairing the divide that has been created between western nations. Maybe, you should set yourself this major task instead of conducting this hate campaign.

You are the one calling us arrogant and unilateral. What's the difference?

You won't get more unity by repeatedly insulting us. You rather create some kind of irreversibility and more of the hatred you pretend to fight.
Adding more hate only serves the terrorists and chaos.

I promise you Iraq will succeed and what will you personally say afterwards?

MGB8

07-15-2004, 12:39 PM

The idea that it was Germany not France that was the heart of the Political opposition to the war is simply false. It was France, not Germany, that went from nation to nation (particularly in Africa) trying to sway votes against the US. It was France who told East European potential EU members who supported the war to "shut up."

Unilatteral? Of course, the US is expending the vast majority of the money and troops for the Iraq war, but so is the case in most modern conflicts, and the US was the main proponent of this war. POLITICALLY, on the other hand, the term unilaterral insults the UK, Australia, Italy, Spain, Poland, etc.

The coalition against the war was mainly 4 party - France, Germany, Russia and China. Maybe you could add Canada, Belgium and some of the Arab nations.

As for "repairing the trans-Atlantic rift" - this "rift" is nothing new. France tried to play both sides in the cold war. Germany and the US have pretty much patched up any issues. Frankly, France is for the most part a non-factor in world events, unless it wants to become a Pakistan and start proliferating WMD to unstable regimes that house large islamist populations - and hey, France has tried that before....

Meanwhile, you exhibit more arrogance than Bush ever did, Olivier. Bush simply stated - this is what we believe, this is why we believe it, and we are going to act on it, and you can either join in, stand aside, or get out of our way. France, OTOH, tries to hide its self-interested positions in some argument of moral superiority...while in reality all that France has been trying to do is protect its own investment in Saddam Hussein.

As for the Military contractors ownership of French Media, its part of a book written by a well known French journalist, I forget his name, who was recently fired from a major newspaper (I don't think it was Le Monde) for writing the book. So much for lack of censorship....

I believe there is a thread on this forum somewhere describing this.

takeo

07-15-2004, 03:38 PM

Of course, the Anti-French "campaign" is really just a response to the anti-Americanism of France - a longstanding anti-Americanism that goes back at least to the cold war.

After all, it is Jaque Chirac that has talked extensively about challenging the "anglo-saxon" hegemony...and he's repeating an often taken line. American travelers to France often come back reinforcing the French (particulary Parisian) reputation for arrogance.

we have the right to oppose us,arrogancem which is also a common complain of French tourists returning from the us, no you do NOT have the right to invade whtever country you wish to and you do not have the right to be wrld hegemons, if that shocks you so be it

The stench of hypocrisy from a nation that lays claim to libertym fraternity, equality, blah blah blah ... but tells other European nations to "shut up", and has huge problems with anti-semitism, racism, and on a national level essentially sells itself to the highest bidder. A country who continuously tries to "play both sides", guided not even by the arguable oversimplified values of the US, but by utter self interest deviod of any concience.

all this is equally valid for the us, you lay claim on liberty and de;ocracy but do not respect a country to have its own opinion if it is different fromyours< despite all your values you also sell yourself to the higest bidder such as saudi arabia and you have huge racial problems which makes france look like eurodisney

Lets not forget that 80% of the major media in Iraq is owned by France's 2 largest military firms....who had contracts with...Iraq...

loads of BS
lets not forget that most major media in the us is owned by friends of the republican party ich has equally high level contacts with the largest military firms in the us zho zere the preferate companies to profit from the war against iraq

You want the difference between the US, the UK and France? In the US many people challenged their position on the war, and there was ongoing debate and introspection.

yeah despite an overwelming majority against the war Blair still listened to his only real master which is NOT the brittish people apparently
in france there was ongoing discussion as well but you didn4t knowsince you don4t speak French< in france however people saw the argu;ents of the anti=war supporters were much more believable and as a matter of fact they turned out to have truth on their side

France, arrogant in their infalibilty, has only recently begun to question its own anti-war campaign (lets remember it wasn't just a position, but a concerted effort to keep Saddam Hussein...and also to soon remove the sanctions...), its own media, its own beliefs.

even the people who supported the wqr 2 years ago have ad;itted they were wrong, had we re

Olivier

07-15-2004, 03:43 PM

Posted by Oliver:
I'm afraid the level and quantity of anti-french hatred is much beyond what you can find in france against the US.
Source. I suggest you just read this thread over (or what you wrote in this very post).

I hate Europe. You killed half of my family - no offense.Sure, sixty years ago, I killed your family. I'm afraid I was not born, and my parents were babies. Sure I deserve your hatred - no offense.

Many people had relatives executed, killed, massacred and just don't have such a level of hatred. Stop kidding : today you belong to the haters, not just the victims.

So what? You think the Bush administration is not unilateral enough? That the result of these decisions imposed on the world is so brilliant? France just doesn't accept to obey Bush.
The problem is not who obeys who. The issue is that of POLITICAL COMMITMENT. While France screams and yells it does not offer absolutely any alternativesI know Bush said there is no alternative but invade iraq or "be with the terrorists".
In case you didn't read the polls: even in the US a wide share of the public opinion does not believe a word of this: forged evidence were plenty.

There were no alternatives, you say : false the invasion of iraq is a "war of choice". The choice of Bush, which was initiated well before 9/11.

You are the one calling us arrogant and unilateral. What's the difference? I do not attack the americans as a people, I criticize the policy of W Bush. But I guess you cannot see any difference between this and the anti-french campaign of hatred conducted here.

I promise you Iraq will succeedLike before the invasion, you are gravely wrong again. And this makes others pay for your blindness. Or, of course it depends what you call success!

MGB8

07-15-2004, 03:55 PM

Here's the Rub, Takeo, and its a Run that France has yet to come to grips with.

France is not as important as the United States. In fact, France is probably not as important as California.

Oh, and most major media is not owned by the republican party. That is a joke. The major networks are all still pretty liberal, as is CNN. FoxNews is the only really republican TV newsoutlet, while the Wall Street Journal and the New York Post are the conservative newspapers...but they are quite outmatched by their liberal counterparts. However, the SAUDI's do have an alarmingly large stake in many media corporations - of course, the Saudi's do have a lot of disposable income to invest, so that's not necessarily something nefarious.

The idea that the US doesn't have the right to go to war is, of course, ludicrous. Every country has every right to go to war with whatever party they wish to go to war with. Now, there are legal implications to the basis on which these wars were started, but the right is still there.

The Arabs states, for example, had the right to go to war with Israel (although not to attempt genocide, which they also did). The consequence of their decision to start the war, for example Jordan's decision to attack Israel in 1967, is that they lost legal claim to any land they lost in that war.

Of course, my hypocritical friend, you don't care that the Arab countries refuse to even RECOGNIZE Israel as required by the UN charter, much less issues of war and peace. Meanwhile "noble" nations like France stand aside as the Lybia heads the UN Committee on Human Rights, genocidal Sudan is invited on, and China, your lovely communist state which is the author of religious genocide, occupies Tibet, is aiming missles at Taiwan, and lets not forget Tienamin Square, presumes to judge Israel.

Of course, you can argue if the US had sufficient justification to take out Saddam Hussein's regime. But, OTOH, the sanction were crumbling, as UN officials were proved easy for Saddam to buy off while the French and Russians were pushing for the sanctions to be dropped even though Saddam had expelled the inspectors (so that France and Russia could profit from their investments!) - but, considering that Saddam had violated 17 UN resolutions, shot at US planes in the no fly zones which were the only things protecting the Kurds and the southern Iraqi's from suffering ANOTHER wave of mass murders at the hands of Saddam Hussein...coupled with the bel