Palestinians in Syria protest against Arafat's leadership

[L@mplighterM]

*

[Gatorade]

Not too surprising. Arafat used Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFPL) members as bargaining chips to gain his freedom.

Back in Januaray, the PFLP Brigades said: "We warn the Palestinian Authority's security leaders, especially Tawfiq al-Tirawi, head of West Bank intelligence, and Ramallah police chief Mohammed Saleh, to stop arresting our members and leaders, otherwise our hand will reach them whatever guards they may have."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1766000/1766273.stm

One of the reasons that after the latest bombing there weren't more discussions about exiling Arafat is because people feel that would give him more power. Many Palestinians right now, it appears, are finally seeing that Arafat thinks more about himself than their cause.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Radical Palestinians demonstrated against Chairman Yasser Arafat's leadership of the Palestinian Authority in Damascus today, calling his deal to end the standoff in Ramallah a "disgraceful concession" to Israel and the United States.
The best outcome would be for the Palestinians to erode Arafat's position, then assassinate as in the usual transfer of power in Arab regimes.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

The best outcome would be for the Palestinians to erode Arafat's position, then assassinate as in the usual transfer of power in Arab regimes.

Yes it would be the best outcome. I smell the winds of change what it’ll bring however is not known. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a small civil war of sorts emerge within the next month.

[takeo]

LOL; so you actually prefere the PFLP over Arafat??? Wow, you go a long end in your hate owards the man.
they are popular in Palestine, but they will never kill Arafat, in that case they wouldn't do a sit-in but they have other possibilities. They want to adhere to palestinian unity, at least to the outside world. Of course they are not too happy with arafat, never were, but their real ennemies are israel, not Arafat, your hopes of a palestinian civil war will not become reality. :mad:

[gregg]

I think that ultimately the will get fed up with Arafat and assasinate them.

[cerulean]

Sounds like they are mad.
http://www.theage.com.au/breaking/2002/05/11/FFX9IRSNW0D.html

[L@mplighterM]

Are they mooooooooooooooing yet?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
LOL; so you actually prefere the PFLP over Arafat???
Well, what would the PFLP do? Support terrorist attacks against innocent Israeli civilians? Shoot missiles into Israeli population centers? Preach anti-Semitism and hatred of the West? Smuggle weapons from Iran? Run a brutal and corrupt dictatorship?

All of this is what Arafat is already doing. Any successor would at least have a question mark, whereas Arafat is a sure thing.

And if need be, Arafat's successor would also be removed from power.

[kauffner]

Originally posted by takeo
LOL; so you actually prefer the PFLP over Arafat??? Wow, you go a long end in your hate towards the man.

Of course the PFLP would be preferable to Arafat. Arafat has his Nobel Peace Prize and the support of all the Eurotrash. His group was designated the "sole legitimate representive of the Palestinian people" by the Arab League in 1974. He also has the nostalga of all the aging baby boomer radicals who remember him from his glory days in the 1970s, when he addressed the UN General Assembly fresh from the massacre in Munich.

The PFLP is just a bunch of thugs and murderers. There is simply no need for negotiation when dealing with such people. The only question would be, should the bullet go in the head or the chest? Once they and thier ilk are out of the way, the West Bank can be returned to Jordan and the Palestinian issue finally resolved.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by kauffner


The PFLP is just a bunch of thugs and murderers. There is simply no need for negotiation when dealing with such people. The only question would be, should the bullet go in the head or the chest? Once they and thier ilk are out of the way, the West Bank can be returned to Jordan and the Palestinian issue finally resolved.


I saw a Palestinian execution on video a week or so ago. The guy was shot somewhere around 500 +/- times and then finished off with what looked like a double-barreled shotgun.

So why can't the bullet go in the head and chest?

[takeo]

kaufner, you are a typical fascist who doesn't care nothing for the rights of palestinians or anyone that isn't your own kind.
Seeing your location and guessing your job, that doesn't surprise me really.

Anyway, you are right that Arafat has more international prestige so he is a better leader of the Palestinians, that's why israel wants to dispose of him, not because of those false and fabricated "evidences" against him that were never prooven and didn't even convince president Bush. That's why israel tried to assasinate Arafat on various occations in the past. But anyway whoever is the leader of the palestinians will receive broad international recognition AND support of the entire palestinian people as long as israel is continuing its oppression war against an entire people.
The PFLP are people who are certainly not fundamentalists, their leader was a Christian, and they want the liberation of Palestine of israeli oppression, they also accepted the state of Israel within its international recognised borders and i don't think they attacked innocent civilians yet. They are much better than the thugs of hamas and i hope they will be included in any palestinian government. They also want more justice and resisted against corruption within the circles of Arafat. (that is the only accusation that might be true, but he is an elected leader and noone could ever link him with attacks on innocent people)
by the way ididn't mind the murder of the nazi Zeevi, who wanted a genocide against the palestinians, he is someone who really deserved a bullet in the head and the chest. Better killing thugs like him than innocent children or youth as hamas is doing.

[kauffner]

The PFLP is made up of unreconstructed Marxist-Leninists who are closely alligned with Syria. They have always opposed any move toward a negotiated settlement (including Oslo). They murdered a 5-year-old Israeli girl in her bedroom in Adora on April 27 and then proudly took credit afterwards. The group is best known for the 1972 massacre at Lod airport in which 27 people were killed. They are filth, absolutely the lowest of the low. Who did Ze'evi kill?

[takeo]

Zeevi didn't kill nobody... because he was minister of tourism luckily, but his ideas were absolutely nazi.
i didn't know the PFLP was responsible for the attack on 27th april. where did you read this? Anyway i think attacks on unarmed settlers is a crime, even if their father came there as an armed occupier, it doesn't mean their children and family have to be punished for this.
They didn't agree with Oslo, but nor did Sharon or the israeli rightwing. nowadays we can all agree that Oslo was a good beginning but left too much incertitudes and possible abuses by both sides. The PFLP is supported by Syria, so what? Syria isn't any worse than us-supported dictatorships in the neighbourhood, in fact it's less corrupted and there is less inequality than in other countries iin the region, syria also never envaded another country. Remember israel is still occupying a part of Syria. (by the way even yesterday syria said together with Egypt and SA it wants to recognise israel on the condition of retreat and negociations over the refugee-problem)
I am not a supporter of the PFLP (because i disapproove some of their tactics) but i think this organisation can play an important and constructive role in the establishment of a Palestinian state (i don't believe Hamas can).

[Mediocrates]

Sounds suspiciously like you're indirectly trying to impose a leadership council on the Palestinians....what's good for the goose......is pate one way or another. See when you back someone you have to be happy with whatever anarchy they install for themselves.

[takeo]

I don't want to impose anything, i'm not palestinian and who am I, just i speculate about what would be best for the future and give my own preferences, as you are doing too.

[Mediocrates]

Syria isn't any worse than us-supported dictatorships in the neighbourhood, in fact it's less corrupted and there is less inequality than in other countries iin the region, syria also never envaded another country.


I'm tempted to let that one stand on its own but I was bothered by the 30,000 souls who died when Asaad put down an 'insurrection'.

I was also reminded that the Syrians invaded and continue to occupy Lebanon.

[Gatorade]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?

Here are some clips from another article. The article says that Arafat is losing popularity from both moderates and radicals. Today the radio reported that Arafat planned to go to the Jenin refugee camp but decided not to go because he feared being mocked publicly by radicals.

-------

Arafat's soaring popularity in free-fall as Palestinians reassess his leadership Charles A. Radin NABLUS, West Bank — The popularity of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, which skyrocketed during the months he was besieged by Israel in Ramallah, is plummeting now as Palestinians reassess the results of his leadership of their long, bloody uprising.

Less than two weeks after the lifting of the siege, criticism of the 72-year-old father of the Palestinian national movement is everywhere — from the rubble-strewn streets of Nablus to the ruined Palestinian Authority offices in Ramallah to the economically stricken shops of East Jerusalem.

Militants are enraged at his statements this week that suicide attacks constitute terrorism and must stop. The hardliners threaten civil war if he makes the sort of crackdown on armed fighters that the United States and Israel demand. This time the threat seems credible.

Moderates are insisting that Palestinians acknowledge their inability to defeat Israel through armed struggle, and are demanding new, non-violent tactics. Even some who renounce terror say Arafat's statements represented nothing more than a bow to U.S. and Israeli pressure.

Militants and moderates alike say that it is time for housecleaning at the Palestinian Authority. Long-whispered complaints about corruption in Arafat's inner circle and his failure to allow Palestinians to develop a democratic government now are expressed loudly, and publicly.

Arafat "should resign," said Hassan Atiti, 36, a lawyer in Nablus who said he is not affiliated with any faction. "He failed to get a homeland for the Palestinian people, the Palestinian Authority is corrupt ... and it was a big mistake for him to say that the martyrdom attacks (suicide bombings) are terrorism. This will hurt the resistance."

Half a block into the ancient casbah of Nablus, where Palestinian fighters and Israeli troops fought a fierce battle last month, a group of college-age youth — unable to attend classes because of Israel-imposed limitations on movement between West Bank cities — is boiling with anger at Arafat.

********* *********

"Sharon helps his people; Abu Ammar hurts his people," said Amer Ghanem, 22, using Arafat's nom de guerre. "He only watches out for himself and the people close around him. They blundered away our country."

****** **********

A dozen other young men stand around smoking, listening, chorusing agreement when he said the Palestinians should have elections, build strong leadership and gain control of all the land of Israel, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.

Special animus is reserved for Arafat's cronies. "These people were poor in Lebanon" when the Palestinian leadership fled there, "and now they are rich," said Ghanem, an articulate engineering student one semester short of graduation. "Where did the money come from?"

Even the name "Abu Ammar," which means father of construction, has become a target of ridicule for some Palestinians, who now punningly refer to Arafat as "Abu Dammar," father of destruction.

Mahmoud Abu Katish, 37, a cook who has been unemployed for a year, since the Palestinian uprising put the hotel where he worked in Israel out of business. Katish said dispiritedly over afternoon coffee in Saladin Street, the main drag of Arab East Jerusalem, that Arafat "should not have come here in 1994."

That was the year Arafat and the other leaders of the Palestine Liberation Organization, weak from defeat and banishment by Israel, Jordan and Syria, returned from a decade of exile in Tunis under terms of the U.S.-brokered Oslo agreement in 1993 between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority was to have gradually taken control over the Palestinian population and to have laid the foundation for a future Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. But the Oslo accord faced opposition from extreme nationalists in Israel and Palestinians and was eventually undermined.

"We were better off before," Katish said, recounting his experience when he tried to set up a dairy in Ramallah two years ago. "The Authority set in front of me a million obstacles, and I went to" a cabinet minister "who told me to go see this other guy. It turned out I had to bribe them. If there has been transparency and democracy, it would have been different."

Ominously, for Arafat and his circle, the spectrum of Palestinians who contend that their leaders have bungled militarily and strategically extends to armed fighters like Ammar Akub, 32, of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an affiliate of Arafat's Fatah movement.

Looking over the wreckage of his apartment, Akub said: "We should change this leadership, using all means, whether peaceful or not peaceful. These leaders are traitors."

[cerulean]

BETHLEHEM, West Bank - Residents of this biblical city are expressing relief at the exile to Cyprus last week of 13 hard-core Palestinian militants, who they said had imposed a two-year reign of terror that included rape, extortion and executions.

...
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020513-2162940.htm

Thus, it is clear that the thugs holed up in the church were hardly beloved by the local populace. So whoever was protecting these thugs was hardly considering the local population in doing so.

I wonder who will take responsibility if these thugs proceed to commit yet more crimes in their new places of residence?

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
I wonder who will take responsibility if these thugs proceed to commit yet more crimes in their new places of residence?
The pleasant thing about it is that they probably will get the so-called "Schengen visas" and roam most of Western Europe without any kind of control. That is, unless Israel presents "convincing" evidence of their guilt...

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
BETHLEHEM, West Bank - Residents of this biblical city are expressing relief at the exile to Cyprus last week of 13 hard-core Palestinian militants, who they said had imposed a two-year reign of terror that included rape, extortion and executions.
I am continually amazed at the degree of Arab vs. Arab cruelty.

[takeo]

it is mostly clear that Arafat has a hard choice between his people who want harder actions against the occupier because they don't believe in peace with sharon, and the international community demanding a calm-down.
yet, most of the population still support arafat, it won't change so much in two weeks. But now they expect him to be strong and continue the intifadeh untill israel agrees to the Palestinian demands and stop the occupation.
of course there are problems with corruption, and as in every war, some people engaging in the war are tugs, yet the christian population in Bethlehem hate the israeli occupiers even more (that's why they provided them shelter in the church). Anyway any successor of arafat will have to be more radical to have the support of the majority of palestinians.
Any people in similar situation of the palestinians would face similar problems and anger, or worse.

about syria: it didn't invade libanon, the libanese Christian president asked syria to come to protect it against the palestinians and the israeli who exported their problems to libanon. Libanese can still decide if they want syrian troops or not, that's not really a privilige the palestinians have. I would advise you to go visit Syria before making any comment on the country.

[takeo]

i prefere Arafat and the PLO because of its moderation, his historical prestige and wide support, which most other groups don't have. Yet it is true the inner circles of the PA had a problem of corruption and during the 90's Arafat didn't react enough to the israeli (and hamas) provocations to undermine Oslo. That's why some groups left the PLO.

[takeo]

however as long as israel is making him the black sheep, palezstinians will support arafat. They may have their internal differences, but faced with the israeli oppressor, they are united.

[kauffner]

Here is the link about the murder of 5-year-old Danielle Shefi by the PFLP and Hamas:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=105002000

[kauffner]

The Lebanese government may have asked for Syrian troops initially, but within months of when they entered the country Lebanese public opinion turned against the Syrians. In 1982, the Syrians murdered a Lebanese president-elected who was thinking about asking them to leave.

Palestinians turned against the Mufti in 1948 when his strategy resulted in massive defeat. Arafat is not invincible. A new leader can try a new approach, so there is reason to be hopeful regardless of whether the new guy is a hardliner or a moderate.

Stalin, Mao, and Nassar were all worshipped when they died and were succeeded by loyal supporters. But within a few years, thier successors had adopted dramatically different policies.

The Christian population in Bethlehem doesn't have any choice about whether or not terrorists use thier church. Since the PA took over, Bethlehem has become a majority Muslim city and Christians are now only 20 percent of the population. I have seen newspaper reports in which Christian Arabs sound pretty bitter, albeit anonymous. If they are not complaining openly, it is because they have good reason to be afraid.

[takeo]

bethlehem has a muslim majority since the 19th century, and christian palestinians are as much anti-israeli than Muslim Palestinians, the PFLP is lead by Christians.

of course Arafat is not invincible, but the policy of Arafat is the most reasonable possible, and the mood of the Palestinians is for sure more radical than Arafat, if there will be change after his death, it will be a radicalisation, palestinians are sick and tired of israeli aggression and occupation, that's why suicide-bombing has become so trendy the last months. Nasser, Mao and stalin were quite radical, more than their people, and after their death a moderation happened, but in palestine it is exactly vice-versa.
maybe it is this what israel wants to make palestinians so radical that they will loose the touch with the international community by actions such as in jenin. To succeed this policy arafat has to die.

ps: pflp and Hamas are ennemies.

[cerulean]

That's a rather unique (and inaccurate) figure about majority Muslims in Bethlehem since the 19th century. I'll look for something more detailed later. But for now:

From http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/christians.html :

What has been the situation for Christians in Israel/Palestine?

During the British mandate period, Bethlehem had a Christian majority of 80%. Today, under Palestinian rule, it has a Muslim majority of 80%.

Few Christians remain in the Palestinian-controlled parts of the West Bank. Those who can - emigrate, and there will soon be virtually no Christians in the Palestinian Authority controlled areas. The Palestinian Authority is trying to conceal the fact of massive Christian emigration from areas under its control.

- from PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS (Prime Minister's Office ) November, 1997

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
bethlehem has a muslim majority since the 19th century


More proof that this is a false claim.

http://www.acpr.org.il/cloakrm/clk117.html
(Article dated December 25, 2001)

==========
ARAFAT-STYLE "GERRYMANDERING" ENCOURAGES EMIGRATION OF CHRISTIANS AND IMMIGRATION OF MOSLEMS. Arafat has Islamisized Bethlehem, since assuming control in 1995, by changing the municipal boundaries of Bethlehem and its twin towns, Beth Jallah and Beth Sakhur. They used to constitute the Christian enclave in Judea & Samaria. He severely tipped demography there, by incorporating (into the 65,000 residents) additional 30,000 Moslems of three neighboring refugee camps, Dehaisheh, El-Ayda' and El-Azeh. Arafat has intensified the Islamization of Bethlehem, by adding to its population a few thousand Bedouins of the Ta'amrah tribe, located east of Bethlehem, encouraging Moslem immigration from Hebron to Bethlehem, and inducing Christian emigration/flight away from Bethlehem. The Christian population was reduced from a 60% majority in 1990 to a 20% minority in 2001 (23,000). Thus, more Beth Jallah Christians reside in Belize (Central America) than left in Beth Jallah itself! A similar process has also afflicted the Christians of Ramallah (20,000).
========

[takeo]

ok, you are right that Christians in Bethlehem were a majority, but not since 1993, but long before.


"Ruether points a finger at the local political situation as a primary reason for the Christian exodus. "The primary reason for Palestinian Christian immigration [into the US] is not the Muslim hostility but the intolerable condition of life under Israeli rule where Palestinians have nominal citizenship but not equal opportunities." "Although there was Christian migration to the Americas in the 1930s and 1940s, relations with Muslims in Palestine remained surprisingly good. The Balfour Declaration had aroused the fears of both Muslims and Christians over the aims of Zionism. This gave rise to the creation of Muslim-Christian associations. The Catholic communities made a determined stand and took a lead in forming the Palestinian Arab National Movement. Anti Zionism increasingly has been the unifying factor among the Christian groups but, despite the strongly Christian identity of the Old City of Jerusalem, there are so few Christians left today that they are unlikely to have much impact now on the future of this deeply wounded region"

"Primarily, historians say, the Christians of the Holy Land are leaving a war-torn region to seek economic opportunity. The Christians' traditional economic strength, higher levels of education and links to Western churches have helped them emigrate to cities like Boston, Detroit, London, Toronto, and Melbourne. "



http://www.caabu.org/publications/christianity_abandons.html

"There have also been dramatic shifts in the demographic landscape such as the influx to Israel of millions of Jewish immigrants from Europe, Russia, and North Africa and a soaring Muslim birth rate. These developments have made those Christians who stay in their native villages and cities an ever-shrinking minority. Statistics show that the remaining Christians tend to be elderly, poor, and female. "

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/christianity/day1.htm

"There is a widespread perception in the United States that this dwindling of the Palestinian Christians is due to Muslim hostility, that Muslim militants who desire a Muslim state have made life intolerable for Christians. This perception is strongly contested by Palestinian Christians. In recent trips to the Holy Land, Christians I spoke with insisted that Palestinians see themselves as one people, Muslim and Christian. The Palestinian Liberation Organization, led by Yasir Arafat -- himself married to a woman of Christian family -- is committed to a secular democratic state. While the dwindling Christian presence should be of concern to Western Christians, this question needs to be put in a larger historical and socioeconomic context. "

"Today the primary reason for Palestinian Christian immigration is not Muslim hostility, but the intolerable conditions of life under Israeli rule, whether in the West Bank, Gaza or in Israel, where Palestinians have nominal citizenship but unequal opportunities within what is defined as a “Jewish state.” There are tensions between Christians and Muslims in cities such as Nazareth, but this is in large part due to the Muslim perception that the Christians, represented by foreign clergy, have power far out of proportion to their numbers in the city. But the primary impetus for immigration is economic. It is the educated middle class, especially Christians advantaged in this regard, but also Muslims, who are likely to seek to immigrate because their economic opportunities are so poor. "

http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/Christians.htm

[takeo]

and please stop using biased ultra-zionist sources, i use neutral sources from christian websites.

[kauffner]

Bethlehem had a 60 percent Christian majority in 1994. Now it's down to 20 percent.

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/feb02/davis1.htm

I was in Bethlehem in 1982. There were a lot women in Muslim robes, didn't look much like a Christian town. I was also a little surprised to see the "original cave where Jesus was born" -- I guess my pastor just didn't mention the cave part.

[cerulean]

In short, life is hard, but they can and do emigrate.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021464444912

The article mentions that the the mayors of Bethlehem and two other towns wanted to get the area annexed to Israel in the 1980s, but Israel bowed to international pressure and did not do so.

[takeo]

Read my links to Christian sources and you'll see the reason why christians feel bad is not primarily because of muslim repression...

[cerulean]

The unfortunate thing is that Israel did not annex those three towns as requested by the mayors in the 1980s. It would have been better for Israel, better for the population, better for tourists.

Now the population has to be oppressed by thugs like those that were in the Church of the Nativity and suffer under the repression of the Palestinian Authority. On the other hand, I know the pressure against Israel annexing those areas had to be intense. And it's not Israel's fault that the Arabs ruling Bethlehem are thuggish in nature.

The article shows that Israeli "occupation" of the area was generally a positive thing.

[takeo]

that's why it's an article published in the Jerusalem Post... not for providing unbiased information but for providing everything that can be usefull in the israeli propaganda-machine...

on the contrary independant research by Christian engaged people, to which i provided the links in this thread, come to the conclusion that the israeli occupation was the most important reason why Christians fled their hometown and live in bad conditions.

[Ezra]

I'm not really sure how do you want to understand the position of the Christians of Bethlehem in particular and in the middle east in general when no one of you cared to look for any publications/letters/articles from them.

Anyway, to understand how things go between the Middle East Christians, let's first classify them into 3 categories:
1) Political (Arab government member) Christians.
This first category obviously is "politically" motivated. The show their absolute support for Palestinians rights and attacks Israel whenever they have the chance.
2) Normal Christians inside the Middle East.
This second category hates Muslims (and Palestinians as well) and understands Israel's right of existence based on their faith in the old testimony of the bible (don't EVER underestimate the rule of Bible in the life of the oriental Christians). They, however, cannot speak out since of course the Arabs prisons are widely opened for such people especially with such opinions.
3) Normal Christians from the Middle East, but living outside the Middle East.
This last category has the same opinion as second category but the obvious different is that they can speak out since most of them lives in the USA or Australia. They are also quite powerful since they are usually very highly intellectual and have many contacts with political leaders in the US.

To understand this position clearer, here is a letter written from The Orthodox (mainly from Middle east) Christians Association in the USA to someone called Nabil Bebawi. This "Nabi Bebawi" is an Egyptian Christians who is a member of the Egyptian government (hence belong to the first category). He sharply criticized Israel for the events of the Church of Nativity. Now this letter shows EXACTLY how the Christians of the Middle East feel about the situation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

El Hagg Nabil Bebawi keeps lashing in every possible direction! Apparently, he decided to give the Diaspora Copts a break and is directing his criticism now against Pope Shenouda! And why not since no one in Egypt dared telling him to try to be intellectually honest and tame down his consuming ambition to look like the concerned patriot who cares so much about the Palestinian thugs who desecrated the Church of the Nativity.

He is not satisfied with the shaw of solidarity with the Palestinians displayed by Pope Shenouda and his declared resentment of the Israeli siege of the Church of nativity. Dr. Bebawi now wants the Pope to hold an even bigger event to do the same even after the church siege has ended and more facts about how the Palestinians desecrated and damaged the Christian holy place that they sought refuge in.

Reports claim that the armed gangs which took refuge in the church did not respect its sanctity and used the altar as a kitchen table and the baptistery to wash dishes.

I have no proof to verify these allegations, but they generally fit into the over all scheme of events: A gang of armed Palestinians storm the church with the idea that this is going to be a win-win move for them: If the Israelis attack the church, they will raise the ire of the Christian world, and the Palestinians can erect a great mosque eventually at the site of the leveled down church to celebrate the "martyrdom" of their noble freedom fighters! And if the Israelis refrain from attacking the sanctuary, then the cowards who took refuge inside it with their weapons will be safe.

What happened is a combination of the two scenarios. Apparently when the Palestinian thugs realized that the Israelis were not going to violate the sanctity of the structure by storming it, the fugitives started provoking their pursuers by shooting at them to induce them to respond knowing full well that they can't be injured inside the church and welcoming any damage to the holy place to exploit it as a propaganda tool and gain it as an aim for its own sake.

A gang of armed men who seek to hide in a church know very well that using their arms from inside the church will not affect the superior power of the besieging Israelis to any extent. What was then the purpose of shooting at them from inside the church if it was not for the sole aim of incurring damage to the church?

To prove the malicious intentions of the armed gang towards the church one has to look at the amount of filth and damage they created inside the structure which was caused by their dirty and uncivilized habits or which was intentionally meant to damage the inside of the church. Would these cowards ever think of using the minbar of any mosque as a platform to cook their food or to soil the place in a way only possible and understandable only for beasts to leave behind?

However, this is does not appear to be enough evidence for el Me3allem Bebawi to keep his hypocritical remarks to himself. He insists on demonstrating his zeal and "support" for whoever helps making him look like a super-patriot lashing at everyone starting from the Diaspora Copts to the head of the Coptic Church for not hiring a me3addeda to wail the misfortune of his beloved cowards who violated the sanctity of one of the most sacred shrines of Christianity and intended to damage it inside and out.

Did brother Bebawi ever ask himself what more did any political or religious Moslem leader do more than Pope Shenouda and the maligned Diaspora Copts in support of his beloved heroes? Or is it that Cardinal Bebawi wants to be more Catholic than the Pope (of Rome of course, why not drag him also in the farce?)

What makes me wonder is what is really motivating el osta Bebawi to write his self humiliating comedies. He was already appointed to and dismissed from the useless Egyptian Magless Shora, so what next favor is he really dreaming to pick up from the crumbs of his masters table? To be the first "Coptic" (allah lay addar) president of the Arab Republic of Egypt? Let me assure him that under the current conditions wala 7atta Mosslem (not even a Moslem) can dream of such a favor as long as we have the current president "mothabbat 3ala korsieh".

El sheikh Bebawi is being ridiculed and despised now by the Moslems more than the Copts, for the Copts have already given up on him, and the Moslems are disgusted by the smell and looks of the nauseating phony excreta spewing from his mouth escaping the control of a presumably competent oral sphincter.

[takeo]

blabla

please do me a favor and read the links i provided that are the only scientific studies about the Christian community in Palestine. (by American Christians by the way)

You proove to know nothing at all about Christians in Palestine/Israel:

"This second category hates Muslims (and Palestinians as well) "

almost all Christians ARE Palestinians and speak Arab :rolleyes:

[Ezra]

Originally posted by takeo
You proove to know nothing at all about Christians in Palestine/Israel:

Since you are the amazing, brilliant, genius expert in Christians in the Middle East, would you please be kind enough to tell us how many years of your life have you spent in the Middle East, Mr. Expert??????

Coz as far as I see, you just copy and paste from the web like idiots.

[cerulean]

Ezra,

That was a very interesting letter. Thanks for posting it. I hadn't thought of the possibility that it would be a great coup for the Muslims to have yet another "holy spot" free and clear to build a mosque, but it makes sense.

[takeo]

as you do too.
At least i paste and copy from neutral and relevant sources.
I have only visited the Middle East, yet I have been in the occupied territories too (don't know if you did...) and studied some things about Palestinian Christianity, which is certainly more than you did.