UNprecedented Decision

[abu afak]

Had Enough?
The U.N. handicaps Israel, along with the rest of us.

By Anne Bayefsky

The recent decision on Israel's security fence by the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the U.N.'s legal arm, is a classic example of how the vilification of Jews does not end with Jews.

United Nations mistreatment of the Jewish state takes many forms, from the refusal to admit Israel into the negotiating and electoral groups of many U.N. operations, to Israel's demonization by U.N. human-rights machinery applied to no other state. Though antithetical to the U.N.'s founding principle of the equality of nations large and small, many believe that the consequences of these facts of U.N.-life can be confined to Jewish self-determination. The ICJ has proved them wrong.

U.N. ASSAULT

The Court has declared four new rules about the meaning of the right of self-defense in the face of terrorism today:

(1) There is no right of self-defense under the U.N. Charter when the terrorists are not state actors.
(2) There is no right of self-defense against terrorists who operate from any territory whose status is not finalized, and who therefore attack across disputed borders.
(3) Where military action is perpetrated by "irregulars," self-defense does not apply if the "scale and effects" of the terrorism are insufficient to amount to "an armed attack...had it been carried out by regular armed forces." (The scale in this case is 860 Israeli civilians killed in the last three years — the proportional equivalent of at least 14 9/11's.)
(4) Self-defense does not include nonviolent acts, or in the words of Judge Rosalyn Higgins: "I remain unconvinced that non-forcible measures (such as the building of a wall) fall within self-defence under Article 51 of the Charter."

These conclusions constitute a direct assault on the ability of every U.N. member to fight international terrorism. The U.N. Charter was not a suicide pact and Security Council resolutions in response to 9/11 were intended to strengthen the capacity to confront violent non-state actors, not defeat it.

Having couched their analysis in general terms, however, some of the judges were concerned that the go-ahead for Palestinian suicide bombers might not be obvious enough. So Judge Abdul Koroma of Sierra Leone wrote: "It is understandable that a prolonged occupation would engender resistance." Judge Nabil Elaraby of Egypt said, "Throughout the annals of history, occupation has always been met with armed resistance. Violence breeds violence." He "wholeheartedly subscribe[d] to the view" that there is "a right of resistance." Judge Hisashi Owada of Japan spoke of the "the so-called terrorist attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers against the Israeli civilian population."

The judges need not have worried. Within hours a joint statement from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Yasser Arafat's Fatah organization announced: "We salute the court's decision." Proclaimed a Hamas communiqué "The racial wall represents the true image of the Zionist entity...The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, welcomes the ICJ's decision and considers it a good step in the right direction.... We stress the need to continue our efforts and use all available means to stop the construction of the racial wall and remove its effects." The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine issued a statement hailing the ruling as "a step forward." This judgment clearly played very well to an audience from the State Department's list of foreign terrorist organizations.

[......]

Furthermore, said the Court, the right of self-defense does not apply against Palestinian terrorism because it operates from Israeli-controlled territory and is therefore not international. The international borders between Iran, the departure point of the arms-laden ship Karine-A and its intended port in Gaza, or between Damascus, headquarters of The Front for the Liberation of Palestine's General Command, and suicide bombers in Haifa, apparently slipped the judges' minds.


LONG ROAD

These legal results did not materialize in a vacuum: They were the product of the Court's insidious historical revisionism and selectivity. The 1948 war was not an aggressive assault on the nascent Jewish state by combined Arab forces after their rejection of the U.N. Partition Plan. Instead, "On 14 May 1948 Israel proclaimed its independence...armed conflict then broke out between Israel and a number of Arab States and the Plan of Partition was not implemented." The 1967 war was not another of the five successive wars Israel has been forced to wage by successive Arab rejectionists. Instead, "the 1967 armed conflict broke out between Israel and Jordan." The pre-1967 status of the territories as either "disputed" or "occupied" is crucial to the legal issues. Occupied territory requires that the land previously have belonged to somebody else. But the Court said: "there no need for any enquiry into the precise prior status of those territories."

Judge Elaraby apparently forgot he was no longer Egyptian Ambassador to the United Nations — a post he held until 1999 — and used his judicial robes to deliberately misrepresent the content of Security Council Resolution 242. In his words "Resolution 242...called for the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from the territories occupied in the conflict." In fact, painstaking negotiations resulted in the omission of "the" before the word territories. 242 speaks of "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict..." precisely so as not to pre-judge the outcome of negotiations over ownership of the territories or future lines of withdrawal.

Having decided that the historical ownership of the territories prior to 1967 is irrelevant, the Court took it upon itself to determine that today all of the territories "which before the [1967] conflict lay to the east of the Green Line" "including East Jerusalem" are "Palestinian territories" It did not matter that the parties to the conflict have agreed that final borders and the status of Jerusalem will be determined by negotiation. Instead, Judge/Ambassador Elaraby used his judicial pulpit to advance a long-held U.N. strategy of imposing results. Having misstated Israel's obligation under 242, he claimed: "It is...politically unsound to...confin[e] it [242's obligations] to a negotiating process." Or as Jordanian Judge Awn Al-Khasawneh, a representative of Jordan at the U.N. General Assembly for 17 years until the mid-1990s, said: "The discharge of international obligations...cannot be made conditional upon negotiations" — international obligations to negotiate notwithstanding.

Into this cumulative distortion of history and law was injected the biggest U.N. deception of all. The Court's operating premise (accurately described by Elaraby) was simply this: "Occupation, as an illegal and temporary situation, is at the heart of the whole problem." A 56-year Arab campaign to end the "Judaization" of the region — as a U.N. Human Rights Commission resolution describes Jews on Arab land — was totally ignored. Judge Higgins disparagingly describes the Court's behavior (though she refuses to dissent) in a concurring opinion: "the Court states that it 'is indeed aware that the question of the wall is part of a greater whole, and it would take this circumstance carefully into account in any opinion it might give.' In fact, it never does so."

[..]

Therefore, it is no surprise that within a week the Court's decision has become the subject of another 10th General Assembly Emergency Session — reconvened for the thirteenth time to condemn Israel and to call for a plethora of future activities intended to further demonize and isolate the Jewish state. Taking their cue from Annan, who immediately pounced on the decision to make demands of Israel, there will be no pause for a single emergency session of the General Assembly on the millions dead or dying in Sudan.

[...]

It was no accident that the only dissenting opinion on the merits of the case came from Tom Buergenthal, a child survivor of the concentration camps of Auschwitz and Sachsenhausen. He needed no lessons about the face of evil, its methodologies, and its consequences. How sad for the rule of law that he spoke alone.

The Arab drive to destroy the state of Israel has debased the U.N., sullied its charter, perverted the meaning of human rights, and ransacked international law and its highest Court. How many more of the universal ideals upon which our world depends must be desecrated before we say "enough"?

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/bayefsky200407171024.asp

[i]Anne Bayefsky is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelnn.com/image.php?id=40

[CanDo]

The violent, greedy, incompetent Arab pigs, who pretend to be the leaders of the Arab nations, keep their own people in misery. These Arab thugs sure don't want to see the Arabs living in Israel have a higher standard of living than their own Arab people.

Plus...... it is embarrassing to ALL Muslim countries to witness the Jews of Israel having a much higher standard of living and individual freedoms than the Muslims within Muslim countries.

Combine the world's jealousy and envy of Jewish achievement, with the corrupt governments of most of the world, and you get stupid, mindless, disgusting, dishonest rulings by the "world body". The "world body" is comatose.

[Mediocrates]

http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/2004/07/they-have-reasonssteve-north-along.html

Sunday, July 18, 2004
"They have reasons"

Steve North along the barrier with British "journalists"
Special to The Jewish Week

The Israel Defense Forces were taking foreign reporters on a tour of the “separation fence� late last month, days before Israel’s Supreme Court balanced humanitarian and security considerations, ordering the army to remove a small portion of the barrier and re-route other sections that might impose undue hardships on Palestinians.

Conducting our tour was a lieutenant colonel named Shai, the former battalion commander for the area. Also in the van: an IDF spokesman and the two Brits: Harriet, a foreign editor of the influential UK publication The Guardian, and Martin, a correspondent for the Times of London.

Shai, a wiry, upbeat, fast-talking Israeli with a desert-dry sense of humor, pointed to the bustling highway that skirts the town.

“This is Route 6, the main route between the north and south,� he said. “It’s a toll road. I’m not sure how it is in England, but I don’t know any Israeli that will pay money to get shot. We don’t like that over here, so we built this wall to make sure no Palestinians can shoot onto the road.� (Less than 4 percent of the barrier is comprised of concrete walls, which are used only in sniper-prone areas).

While Shai was in charge of the area, a terrorist had opened fire on an Israeli family returning from a wedding. A 7-year-old girl was killed; Shai removed her body from the car.

“When you take out a child with a big hole in her chest,� he said, pointing to the spot where the attack occurred, “you understand why you need this wall. We measured the angle from the highest house where a sniper might be hiding to the road and built it accordingly.�

Harriet had a question, but it was not about the horror that Shai, himself a father of young children, had witnessed that day. “So if they build something higher, you’ll raise the wall?� she asked.

No, Shai explained, the army has basically cleared the terrorists out of Kalkilya, so one benefit for the residents is that an Israeli army battalion no longer must be stationed inside the town.

“Wait,� Harriet interrupted, “are you trying to say that the fence is making life better for the Palestinians?�

“In some cases, yes,� replied Shai, echoing recent comments by the head of the Jenin Chamber of Commerce, who said the retreat of the Israeli army following the construction of the security fence has led to a revitalization of business, nightlife and investment in that Palestinian community.


Martin was having none of it. “This wall is killing Kalkilya economically,�he said, clueless to the irony in his choice of words. “Do you see signs of ordinary citizens turning into terrorists because of it?�

I listened without comment.

As we stood next to the wire fence and its motion detectors, Martin asked, “Is it electrified?�

“Touch it and see,� Shai suggested. As we laughed nervously, Shai, then Martin, grabbed the barrier. “It’s electronic,� said the soldier, “not electric. We’re not trying to electrocute them; we’re trying to stop them from coming in and killing us.�

Shai contrasted the numbers of dead Israelis, pre- and post-construction of the fence in the northern region. In a subdued tone, he spoke of the bus with a suicide bomber on board that he happened to be driving behind on Mount Meron two years ago. He was one of the first on the scene, removing bodies and limbs, and giving CPR to a Filipino woman who died in his arms. “You don’t forget something like that,� he concluded, “and it makes you understand why we need this fence.�


But Harriet and Martin persevered. “How long must the Palestinians wait at this checkpoint?� they asked. “Can you shoot them from the fence, or are those just cameras up there? You say you compensate Palestinians if you confiscate land for the fence; what if there are olive trees growing on that section for 100 years � how can you compensate them for that?�
As our tour concluded, I asked some questions of my own. “It seems to me that most of the British coverage I’ve seen of this story is inordinately focused on the inconveniences suffered by the Palestinians due to this fence, as opposed to the Israeli lives it is apparently saving. Why might that be?� I wondered.


After heated denials by both journalists, Martin said, “I could turn the question around. Why is there no coverage in America given to the root causes of terrorism? We try to understand why Palestinian people feel driven to take such extreme measures as suicide bombings. I understand why Israel is building a wall to stop terror, but terrorists only flourish if they have grievances to exploit.�

“Grievances? You know, I’m from New York,� I said. “Should I try to understand the grievances of the terrorists who flew into the World Trade Center?�

“Well, yes,� answered Martin. “I think bin Laden tapped into grievances.�

Harriet chimed in,


“Do you think they just did it for fun?

They have reasons.�



See the pictures at the bottom of the page provided.

[Mediocrates]

"We in this country, in this generation, are -- by destiny rather than choice -- the watchmen on the walls of world freedom. We ask, therefore, that we may be worthy of our power and responsibility, that we may exercise our strength with wisdom and restraint, and that we may achieve in our time and for all time the ancient vision of "peace on earth, good will toward men." That must always be our goal, and the righteousness of our cause must always underlie our strength. For as was written long ago: "except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.""

-- John F. Kennedy, speech planned for 11/22/63

with references to Isaiah 62:6-7 and Psalm 127 in italics.

[abu afak]

Pimping for Palestine
by Shoshana Rubin
Jul 22, '04 / 4 Av 5764

The World Court at the Hague has loudly told the global community that terrorism and an average legal argument will spell victory at the World Court. By omission, the Court told Palestinian Authority Muslims who make human bombs of their own children, in order to kill other children, that they have every right to do so, because they are "occupied" by Israel. The World Court decided Israel has no right to defend herself by erecting an anti-terror wall to keep out suicidal, genocidal killers.

Was the Muslim slaughter of Jews in Hebron, or in Jerusalem, in 1929 due to the anti-terror wall of 2004?

The Palestinians have become the Chosen and the Jews have become the Condemned. The path of the barrier, according to the court opinion read by Judge Shi Jiuyong of China, "gravely" violates Palestinian rights, "and the infringements from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."

The World Court decided that the Holy Land with its Arab olive groves, grapes and rocks are more important than the lives of Israeli citizens. How many Arab olives are worth one Jewish child? How many Arab grapes are worth one Israeli soldier? How many Arab rocks are worth one Jewish family?

The only surprise about the World Court's decision would be if anybody is surprised. No one is surprised in Israel, or in the Middle East; not in America, in Canada, Latin America, Australia, India, Asia or Europe. How normal is it to expect to be treated unfairly, cynically and with prejudice? The democratic, human- rights abiding World Court has sent the undemocratic PA Muslims a silent and clear message: you have the right to murder and maim Jews wherever you find them and we, who are pimping for Palestine, have no ruling if you choose to murder your own children in order to murder Israeli children, because we find the Wall of 2004 to be an obstacle to "national security or public order."

The Western world is digging its own grave. When Muslims loudly and often declare, "Thanks to your democratic laws, we will invade you. Thanks to our Islamic laws, we will conquer you," does anyone believe these Islamic invaders and conquerors will listen to the esteemed World Court at the Hague?

The Palestinians have become the darlings of a cruel, perverted, leftist Western mentality. This decision by the World Court reveals the reason the citizens of Israel should become more independent. If the West is drowning in self-hatred, how much more do they hate the Jew and blame him for their own self-loathing.

There is nothing Israel can do about a self-loathing Western World. If more Israelis could only see their own beauty, their own humanity, their own very talented, kind and brilliant souls, we wouldn't have to constantly throw ourselves on the mercy and goodwill of the West, which is dangerous to our own survival as a nation and a people. The result of our obsessive, neurotic, insecure dependence can only be the rage and wrath of the world. Are we setting the stage for another Shoah?

http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=3961

[medkorp]

Hi,


The violent, greedy, incompetent Arab pigs, who pretend to be the leaders of the Arab nations, keep their own people in misery. These Arab thugs sure don't want to see the Arabs living in Israel have a higher standard of living than their own Arab people.

It's true most of the leaders in the muslim-arab world are incompetent, but it's not a news ! But you're wrong when you think that muslim or arab are jealous of the israelis standard of living, they are angry by Israel behavior with palestinians, that's all !


Plus...... it is embarrassing to ALL Muslim countries to witness the Jews of Israel having a much higher standard of living and individual freedoms than the Muslims within Muslim countries.

Wrong, arabs doesn't like the behavior of Israel, that's all ! They don't care about the standard of living in Israel, there's a lot of country with such standard, so don't think Israel is the number one !


Combine the world's jealousy and envy of Jewish achievement, with the corrupt governments of most of the world, and you get stupid, mindless, disgusting, dishonest rulings by the "world body". The "world body" is comatose.
Poor guy, everybody is jealous about him...Everybody is jealous of the jewish achievement..., Israel become closer of South Africa, before Mandela of course...

Medkorp

[redcake]

Hi,



It's true most of the leaders in the muslim-arab world are incompetent, but it's not a news ! But you're wrong when you think that muslim or arab are jealous of the israelis standard of living, they are angry by Israel behavior with palestinians, that's all !

So you're saying that the "leaders in the muslim-arab world" care about Palestinians? Is that why they left them at the borders as refugees? Is that why Jordan and Syria killed more Palestinians then anyone? Or why Saudi Arabia expelled tens of thousands of them ? The only Palestinians they care about, are the ones they can use to scapegoat Israel with.

[Mediocrates]

Posted: 7/22/2004 7:16:00 PM
Author: Dan Gillerman
Source: http://www.standwithus.com


Statement by Amb. Gillerman to the UNGA 10th Emergency Session


16 Jul 2004

Statement by UN Ambassador Dan Gillerman to the 10th Emergency Special Session of the 58th UN General Assembly

"Illegal Israeli actions in occupied East Jerusalem
and the rest of the occupied territories."

Mr. President,

For years, if not decades, this assembly has entertained the Palestinian representative's attempts to manufacture a virtual reality. An alternate world in which there is but one victim and one villain, in which there are Palestinian rights but no Palestinian responsibilities, in which there are Israeli responsibilities but no Israeli rights.

This persistent campaign has contributed little to the credibility of the United Nations, and nothing to the cause of peace. It has pushed the parties further apart. With each successive partisan initiative we are left to wonder how can the United Nations contribute to the welfare of both peoples, if it sees the suffering of only one?

Last December, despite the reservations of many states, including the members of the Quartet, the International Court of Justice was dragged into that virtual reality. To add the ICJ to the list of United Nations organs harnessed to this one-sided agenda, a grotesquely distorted question was devised that placed the response to terrorism on trial, but ignored the terrorism itself. The hope was to create so perverted a process that the court would be compelled to ignore the suffering of innocent Israelis from terrorism, and the obligations of the Palestinian side to prevent it. Last Friday, sadly, that hope was realized.

The Israeli and Palestinian peoples do not live in that reality. While states are engaged in studying the Advisory Opinion, Israel is burdened with the heavy responsibility of saving the lives of its citizens from the most brutal of terrorist campaigns. We live in the reality in which, just two days after the opinion was issued, terrorists belonging to Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction attacked a commuter bus in Tel Aviv, killing one woman and injuring 34 others. In a reality where after such a horrific attack, Arafat can make the sickening accusation that Israel orchestrated the murder of its own citizens, and have it pass without comment. This is the reality in which we are seeking out partners in peace, and trying - despite all the difficulties - to create conditions in which both sides can live up to their responsibilities and realize their rights. The path to peace does not lie in The Hague or in New York, it lies in Ramallah and Gaza, from where the terrorism is directed.

We can all agree that our goal must be a situation in which no fences between Israelis and Palestinians are necessary. But delegates are deceived if they think, even for a second, that that goal can be attained by considering the obligations of only one side.

Mr. President,

As you will recall, Israel together with a large number of states did not support the request for this advisory opinion. Like the members of the Quartet and countries such as the United Kingdom, Cameroon, Italy, Canada, Australia, Germany, the Netherlands, and others, we submitted a detailed document to the court noting that the request was inappropriate, a misuse of the advisory opinion procedure and damaging to the Road Map. For its part, Israel could not grant legitimacy to this tainted procedure, or be a fully engaged party in what we knew to be a counterproductive and harmful initiative. We continue to believe that it was wrong for the General Assembly to put the court in this position. Simply put, the assembly put the wrong question before the wrong body, and in so doing made it more difficult for the court, even with the best will in the world, to reach a fair, balanced and helpful response. As noted by Judge Kooijmans of the Netherlands, by politicizing the court, the assembly turned this judicial organ into an actor on the political stage. By being drawn into a partisan procedure, the court has become the latest victim of the Palestinian political campaign, and it is the worse for it.

All those states that expressed concern about this misuse of the advisory process should now be wary of allowing this process to dictate the international agenda. There are already worrying indications that the request last December was a test case, a precedent for further abuse of the court. It would be a grave mistake to allow this essentially political maneuver to undermine the prospects for progress on the ground. And it would be equally dangerous for the assembly's actions to be viewed as rewarding such a misguided and politically motivated recourse to the court.

Key states also warned that isolating one issue out of a complex conflict reserved for political negotiations could only lead to a distorted result. They warned of the lack of legitimacy inherent in a process that placed the victims of terrorism on trial, but spared the murderers of any judicial scrutiny. And they warned that any opinion reached as a result of such a skewed process could only lead to politicization and the misrepresentation and misuse of the law with ramifications well beyond the confines of our conflict. These warnings were all too real, but they were not heeded.

Israel has respect for the institution of the International Court of Justice and we believe in its ideals. We represent a people that knows all too well the cost of living in a society in which individuals are not protected by the balanced application of the rule of law. That is perhaps why we are especially disappointed by the exploitation of the court in this case. We will not be the first state, and certainly not the last, to have differences with the positions expressed in an opinion of the court, its historical and factual analysis or central aspects of its reasoning. We note that other states too, as well as several judges on the court, have serious disagreements with key portions of this opinion. This is not the time or the place to explain those differences in detail. But we are compelled to address a number of aspects of this process that bear directly on the deliberations of the assembly.

Israel is dismayed that in the 60-plus pages of the opinion, it was deemed inappropriate to seriously address the brutal terrorism that innocent Israeli civilians are facing, or the ongoing refusal of the Palestinian leadership to bring that terrorism to an end. Those crimes are the very reason that the fence is being erected, and the court's silence in this regard is deafening. While realizing the constraints placed on the court by the distorted question and the partial dossier placed before it, we find this glaring omission legally inexplicable and morally inexcusable.

We note the deep concerns expressed by Judge Higgins of the United Kingdom, Judge Owada of Japan and others, about the failure to declare in the clearest terms that Palestinian terrorism directed at Israeli civilians is a violation of the basic tenets of international humanitarian and human rights law. We agree that this failure fundamentally undermines the balance and credibility of the opinion.

We also share the concerns of some of the judges on the court regarding the selective reliance on facts and secondary materials, and a historical presentation which, to quote Judge Higgins of the United Kingdom, was "neither balanced nor satisfactory". A presentation that addresses the League of Nations Mandate but ignores the Mandate's express recognition of the Jewish people's right to self-determination in their ancient homeland. A presentation that addresses the wars between Israel and its neighbors as if they materialized out of thin air, rather than as a result of deliberate acts of aggression designed to wipe Israel off the map. We share too the deep reservations about a narrow statement in the opinion that could read as though it questions the right of states to self-defense against terrorism, despite all the evidence in law, Security Council resolutions and state practice to the contrary. There is no justice and no law in such an interpretation. It is not a rule that states can live by.

Israel is occasionally urged to put more faith in international institutions and actors, to trust in their objectivity and their fairness. We are told to have faith that the political manipulation of their noble goals will not be tolerated. What will we tell our citizens now?

[Mediocrates]

Mr. President,

Israel recognizes that, like every measure that tries to prevent acts of terrorism emanating from civilian areas, the security fence raises complex legal and humanitarian issues. Accordingly, the fence and its route are under a process of constant review and change. This process includes giving every affected individual, Palestinian or Israeli, the right to petition Israel's Supreme Court, and numerous such petitions are pending. Indeed, Israel's Supreme Court is one of the few courts in the world, and certainly the only one in the region, that vigorously applies international law to examine the domestic actions of its own government. It is a fiercely independent judicial institution that has earned the respect of jurists and lay people around the world. And it is probably the only court in the entire Middle East in which any Arab can challenge his own government's actions and be assured of justice, rather than jail.

On June 30th, in response to one such petition, Israel's Supreme Court issued a landmark ruling on the security fence. Relying on specific provisions of international humanitarian law, the Israeli Supreme Court recognized Israel's authority to erect a fence as a defensive measure against terrorist attacks. It affirmed also that had the fence been built along the so-called Green line - an arbitrary line that has never served as an international border - that itself would have been evidence that the route was being determined by inappropriate political considerations rather than justifiable security ones.

At the same time, the Israeli Supreme Court stressed that the fence must be carefully balanced against the rights of those affected by it. The court, in a thorough and rigorous judgment, laid out a detailed proportionality test by which such a balance could be reached. It went on to find, by reference to that test, that sections of the fence required rerouting.

There are, of course, important differences between the ruling of the Israeli Supreme Court and the ICJ's Advisory Opinion. The Supreme Court was petitioned by Palestinians and Israelis who wanted practical solutions on the ground; the ICJ was asked a question as part of a political and manipulative campaign. The Israeli Supreme Court sought to find a balance between competing rights; the ICJ was asked only about the rights of one side. Perhaps most important, the Israeli Supreme Court had before it detailed and specific evidence, including witness testimony, on all aspects of routing, its security rationale and associated humanitarian effects; the ICJ was supplied only with partial, outdated and often misleading information. Finally, of course, while the opinion of the international court is advisory only, the Supreme Court ruling is binding upon Israel.

As always, Israel as a country that respects the rule of law, will fully comply with decisions of its courts. Following the judgment of the Israeli Supreme Court, the government announced that it would not only reroute those parts of the fence that were the subject of the petition, but reexamine the entire routing of the fence so as to ensure that it complies with all the requirements of international law. That reexamination has already led to decisions to reroute large portions of the fence. As Israel's court declared, and as the Government of Israel fully accepts: "Only a separation fence built on a base of law will grant security to the state and its citizens. Only a separation route built on the path of law will lead the state to the security so yearned for."

And yet, in the virtual reality created by the General Assembly's request, none of these facts was taken into account. Despite Israel's official objections, there was extensive reliance on a dossier that not only contained inaccuracies and critical omissions, but misrepresented Israel's legal position. The Palestinians and certain other parties appearing before the court grossly distorted the nature of the fence, its purpose, and its actual route. No account was taken of the terrorist threat, no account was taken of the significant changes that continue to be made to the route of the fence; no account was taken of the binding decisions of Israel's Supreme Court, no account was taken of the fact that humanitarian arrangements have been vastly enhanced and continue to be improved.

The views expressed by the ICJ do not relate to the legal authority to erect the fence in principle, but to a "specific course" which the court has presumed to exist by relying primarily on the selective and one-sided information with which it was supplied. The court has reached its opinion on this specific question "on the material before it" - but the material before it refers, in large measure, to a fence that does not exist. Indeed, even if the information before the court had been accurate when presented, it does not reflect the actual route of the fence that is under consideration today.

Examining the legality of the route demands a detailed proportionality assessment. It requires specific knowledge of topographical, security, environmental, and humanitarian considerations at each section of the fence. It requires a thorough appreciation of the precise scope of terrorist attacks that Israelis face and the manner in which the specific route chosen has proven an effective means for thwarting those attacks. Such analysis cannot be based solely on reports about the alleged humanitarian impact of the fence - which are themselves outdated and alarmingly inaccurate. As Judge Buergenthal notes, in the absence of such a detailed and serious examination, it is simply impossible to reach definitive legal conclusions.

We do not believe so complex an issue can be addressed with so little opportunity for forensic examination. We do not believe that definitive conclusions can be reached on so obviously inadequate an evidentiary record. The opinion of the court does not rule out the authority to erect a fence in the West Bank. Indeed, it recognizes that military exigencies and security imperatives could justify the erection of such a fence. But it fails to properly examine those exigencies. And its opinion relates only to a phantom route that bears little resemblance to the route actually under review. It should be considered accordingly.

Mr. President,

We are not impressed by lectures from Palestinian spokesmen about respect for the rule of law. We have all witnessed first hand the extent of the Palestinian leadership's respect for law in its support for a brutal campaign of terrorism that violates every basic legal norm. We have learned of their concern for human rights and humanitarian law, when rejoicing over the murder of innocent citizens in terrorist attacks, not only in Israel but around the world, or when plundering international donor money intended to benefit their own people.

We have heard similar self-righteous rhetoric from some other regimes in our region. Those enraged when Israel seeks to protect itself under extremely difficult conditions, but unable to muster a word of condemnation for the systematic and shocking ethnic cleansing under way in the Sudan, or the violations of basic rights and freedoms in their own countries. This rage and concern, this spirited defense of the rule of law, would carry a little more conviction if it were a little less self-serving. For too many regimes in the region, this declared adherence to the rule of law is advanced only when politically expedient. The cause of peace and the lives of people in the region would be far better served if these states actually held themselves to the standard to which they demand Israel alone to adhere.

For all those that speak so hypocritically of "compliance", "the rule of law," and "outlaw states," let me say this: Are there laws for Israel, and different laws for everybody else? We await to see a supreme court in any of these regimes call on its authorities to alter their security plans, let alone see the authorities abide by such a ruling. We await an advisory opinion or even a single UN resolution that addresses the legal obligations of these regimes to end terrorism, stop hate-filled incitement, and respect the human rights of their own citizens, let alone those of other states. These regimes have the gall to speak of sanctions for a measure that saves lives, we await sanctions for the terrorism they sponsor that takes lives. If these regimes, or the Palestinian Authority - where only this morning armed militants kidnapped the head of their own police force - are entitled to lecture anyone about the rule of law or accuse others of being outlaws we have reached a point where the inmates are running the asylum.

Israel recognizes that it has responsibilities. But it is not alone. The Palestinian side calls on Israel to comply with a non-binding opinion. We call on them to comply with their binding legal obligations. There is after all, one straightforward measure that would lead to the removal of the fence - and it is not more resolutions adopted in UN halls. It is, simply put, for the Palestinian side to abandon terrorism as a strategic choice and comply once and for all with its obligations to fight terrorism and incitement. As controversial as the fence may be, one issue is beyond controversy: the terrorism that made the fence necessary is not only a grave violation of international law, it is the enemy of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, and its eradication is an indispensable step to lasting peace.

Mr. President,

[Mediocrates]

Throughout this process, there have been excited attempts to present the advisory opinion as something that it is not - a binding verdict that must be complied with and that necessarily dictates the action of the political organs of the United Nations. This assertion is simply inconsistent with the actual legal status of such opinions as non-binding under international law and runs counter to the history of their subsequent treatment by UN organs. The record of United Nations bodies is replete with examples of states, from every continent and regional group, that have taken serious issue with aspects of an advisory opinion. Many states have voted against resolutions that, like the draft resolution before us today, take the advisory opinion out of their political context. In some cases, the assembly has chosen merely to take note of, rather than expressly endorse, the opinion. And in most cases, the UN membership has recognized that its political organs are compelled to take broader political and strategic considerations into account, and should not be limited in their consideration to the narrow treatment of isolated legal issues.

Given the controversy surrounding the request for this advisory opinion, every one of these considerations apply in this case. If the number of states objecting to this abuse is not enough, if the serious criticism of the opinion by numerous judges on the court and by a growing number of legal experts around the world is not enough, if the obviously self-serving nature of the present draft resolution is not enough - then surely the imperative of advancing the Road Map should itself allow for no other conclusion.

Mr. President,

In the months since the opinion was requested one thing has become abundantly clear: The fence works. In those places where the fence has been erected it has succeeded in making it far more difficult for terrorists to take innocent life and sabotage the peace process. Scores of suicide attacks have been thwarted the latest just two days ago. Hundreds of lives have been saved. There has been a dramatic reduction of over 90% in successful terrorist attacks, a 70% reduction in citizens killed, and an 85% reduction in the number of wounded - all of which can be attributed directly to the security fence. Listen to Tawfiq Karaman, city manager of Umm el Fahm, who said, "God be blessed, the fence ended the parade of terrorists through this city." Listen to Sami Masrawa, an Israeli Arab injured in Sunday's bus bombing: "A month ago I went to protest the fence, now I believe it can only strengthen us." And as Israel is able to protect its citizens by more passive means, it has also been possible to remove roadblocks and withdraw troops from Palestinian areas, improving security, humanitarian and economic conditions for thousands of Palestinian residents.

By closing the avenues to terrorism, we can open the path to peace. As the Quartet and many other states have recognized, there is now a genuine chance to restart the Road Map peace process as a result of the disengagement plan. That opportunity has been created by the security benefits of the fence. It must not be squandered. The fence, and its actual rather than imagined route poses no threat to the emergence of a viable and democratic Palestinian state as part of the Road Map process. Indeed, by helping take terrorism out of the equation, a negotiated two-state solution becomes possible. As Israel has repeatedly declared, the fence does not affect the legal status of the territory, and as has been done in the past it can be moved or removed to accord with any political settlement. As Prime Minister Sharon has pledged, "The fence is a security rather than political barrier, temporary rather than permanent, and therefore will not prejudice any final-status issues including final borders." Above all, the fence is reversible. Lives taken by terrorism are not.

Rather than accepting every facile allegation as fact, we would urge delegates to see not just the response to terrorism but the terrorism itself. The assembly has already expressed itself on the issue of the security fence, but it has yet to address the terrorism that necessitated it. It is time for the assembly to ask some different questions. And it is time to ask yourselves - seriously - what steps can now be taken to bring the parties closer together, not push them even further apart.

The General Assembly has a choice today - to correct the error made last December or to compound it. The Palestinian side hopes that you will preserve the comic strip narrative of victim and villain that they have labored so intensively to create. That is why they were so angered four days ago when the special representative of the secretary-general had the audacity to suggest that both sides had to live up to their obligations. But that comic strip story can produce only paper, it cannot produce progress and it cannot produce peace. By ignoring Palestinian obligations, the assembly only sets back the Palestinian cause. By reinforcing a sense of privilege without a sense of responsibility, the assembly adopts a patronizing agenda that undermines the creation of a democratic Palestinian state at peace with its neighbors in the context of a permanent settlement. Only the political process laid out in the Road Map - that sets out mutual rights and mutual obligations - can achieve real results. And this assembly must decide whether it lives in the virtual world created by Palestinian draft resolutions, or in the real world. It cannot live in both.

The advisory opinion of the ICJ took place in a virtual reality, but it did not take place in a vacuum. On the ground, the launching of a bold and serious initiative of disengagement from Gaza and parts of the West Bank carries the potential to reenergize the peace process. That is where our attention must be focused. We are currently engaged in consultations with states in the region and with Quartet members in order to create conditions in which the disengagement plan can help facilitate genuine progress and the realization of a viable two-state solution in the context of the Road Map.

Surely we can agree that this is the goal: an end to violence, terrorism, and incitement, as required by the very first clauses of the Road Map. An end to suffering on both sides. A commitment to peace, dignity, and prosperity for both peoples based on mutual recognition and mutual compromise. All this can come only by a fulfillment of the obligations agreed to by both sides, so that temporary fences of security can quickly be replaced by permanent bridges of peace.

If the General Assembly wishes to make a relevant and constructive contribution to this noble endeavor we must keep our eye on this prize. We must avoid adopting one-sided, diversionary and divisive resolutions, inspired by the partisan interests of one party to the conflict and thus, of necessity, deficient in their impact and their claim to legitimacy.

The barrier between Israelis and Palestinians is not the security fence, but the terrorism that made it necessary. Were it not for that terrorism, a viable two-state solution would have emerged long ago. Palestinian terrorism seeks not the end of occupation but the end of Israel. The events of recent years and the hate-filled rhetoric of the terrorist ring-leaders tells us as much. As long as the assembly averts its gaze from that stark reality, it does the cause of peace a great disservice. The people of the region deserve, and in fact, demand better. We urge you to heed their call.

Thank you, Mr. President

[Mediocrates]

Isn't the basic principle of the Road Map that the Palestinians and the Israelis have to be separated permanently, by force if necessary? Wasn't the main concession that Israel gave up it's dream of Greater Israel and the PLO give up it's notion that Palestine ran from Egypt to Amman? It would seem that if nothing else the Security Fence is Israels attempt to comply with that Road Map [which is really the plan articulated by the Saudi Kingdom].

All this silly rhetoric about 'land grab' - absolute nonsense, one need only look at all the land Israel automatically gives up as a result of the Fence. Moreover - the basic criticism, which is somewhat fake by the way, that the Israelis are 'free' to defend themselves as long as they don't do it on "Palestinian Land' ring hollow? What is Palestinian land? No one, least of all the Palestinians can define it. So there the Fence sits, sticking out as the only definitive act toward compliance with the Road Map from either side. Moreover when Israel begins to implement phase 2 - the withdrawal from Gaza of the Road Map e.g. separate the parties you see the same political attacks on Israel from the very people who wrote the guidelines it is attempting to follow.

[Mediocrates]

Has anyone looked at the ICJ's docket? It has to go down as one of the funniest pieces of pulp fiction ever written.

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket.htm

Specifically Serbia is suing 8 countries over the the war in Serbia: Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, UK ocer the legality of attacking them when they themselves were under no direct threat.

In those Applications, Serbia and Montenegro, referring to the bombings of its territory by Member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in 1999 following the Kosovo crisis, contended that the above‑mentioned States had committed “acts . . . by which [they] have violated [their] international obligation[s] banning the use of force against another State, not to intervene in the internal affairs of [that State]â€Â� and “not to violate [its] sovereigntyâ€Â�; “[their] obligation[s] to protect the civilian population and civilian objects in wartime [and] to protect the environmentâ€Â�; “[their] obligation[s] relating to free navigation on international riversâ€Â�; “[their] obligation[s] regarding fundamental human rights and freedomsâ€Â�; and “[their] obligation[s] not to use prohibited weapons [and] not to deliberately inflict conditions of life calculated to cause the physical destruction of a national groupâ€Â�. Serbia and Montenegro requested the Court to adjudge and declare inter alia that the States referred to above were “responsible for the violation of the above[‑mentioned] international obligationsâ€Â� and that they were “obliged to provide compensation for the damage doneâ€Â�.

All of the countries listed are demanding the court remove them from the list of countries under adjudication because [for various reasons and they vary from country to country], the ICJ has NO authority and no jurisdiction to adjudicate the case against them. Basically they are saying that they are excused from international law

[Binyamin]

Israel has respect for the institution of the International Court of Justice and we believe in its ideals.
No, we have no respect for it, and say it clearly.

[Gilgamesh]

It's true most of the leaders in the muslim-arab world are incompetent, but it's not a news ! But you're wrong when you think that muslim or arab are jealous of the israelis standard of living, they are angry by Israel behavior with palestinians, that's all ! Well, you are wrong!
Nobody in the Arab world cares about the "Palestinians". Arab in the region do want an end to the curroption of their ragimes and an end to poverty, and they do jealus about the freedom in the West, Israel included, the rule of law and personal security in Western world, which has no rival in human history.

The most anciant way to stabilize the country in such conditions, and supress and grass roots demand for reforms, is by starting a war or by focusing the blame else where, at Jews, at ethnic minorities and out side powers. Most anciant trick in the book.

The fact you people can't accept that truthes, but rather swallow Arab propaganda in gallons. There is a reason, I won't repeat, of why you choose one explaination, however false, over the truth, Israel represents.


Wrong, arabs doesn't like the behavior of Israel, that's all ! They don't care about the standard of living in Israel, there's a lot of country with such standard, so don't think Israel is the number one ! If this is the truth, then WHERE ARE the millions of Arab fighters? (answer: under thier bed, or dressed like women), where are the Arab armies (stowed away)? Why does Egypt and Jorden keep their peace treaty with Israel? Why Egypt keeps open the channel and the Eilat gulf straits?

Because Arabs fear Jewish power tomuch, regardless the billions of military aid and advanced weapon Egypt recieves every year, and the French made shoulder missiles the Syrian has, and the billions of oil dollars, the Arabs have.


Poor guy, everybody is jealous about him...Everybody is jealous of the jewish achievement..., Israel become closer of South Africa, before Mandela of course... You don't have a clue what you're talking about, do ya?

[CanDo]

But you're wrong when you think that muslim or arab are jealous of the israelis standard of living,

Before the current Intifada, the Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank had a higher standard of living than the average Arab living elsewhere.

The Israeli-Arabs have a higher standard of living and more individual rights than the average Arab living elsewhere.

Do you really feel that the average Arabs, living in Arab countries, who have few individual rights, and who are living in poverty, are not jealous of Israel's great success as a civilized and powerful democracy? You feel that they are overjoyed that Israeli-Arabs and Israeli-Jews are doing so well, and that they are doing so poorly?


Wrong, arabs doesn't like the behavior of Israel, that's all !

You mean that Arabs don't like Israel treating Israeli-Arabs better than Arabs are treated in the Arab nations? You mean that Arabs don't like Israel doctors providing medical services all over the world to places who can't afford or can't get the medical care?

Perhaps you are confusing Israel with Lebanon. Lebanon is keeping it's Palestinians in a horrible encampment without medical care and without jobs. But, I imagine that Lebanon's horrible treatment of it's Palestinians is old news to you. I'll bet that you have long complained about how badly Lebanon is treating the Palestinians.

[Semsem]

>>Before the current Intifada, the Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank had a higher standard of living than the average Arab living elsewhere.>>

The Palestinian economy was doing very well before the Intifada. Jerks: they screwed themselves up.

[abu afak]

Hi,

It's true most of the leaders in the muslim-arab world are incompetent, but it's not a news ! But you're wrong when you think that muslim or arab are jealous of the israelis standard of living, they are angry by Israel behavior with palestinians, that's all !
---
Wrong, arabs doesn't like the behavior of Israel, that's all ! They don't care about the standard of living in Israel, there's a lot of country with such standard, so don't think Israel is the number one !
---
Poor guy, everybody is jealous about him...Everybody is jealous of the jewish achievement..., Israel become closer of South Africa, before Mandela of course...
Medkorp
Previously posted by me .. 4/2/2003

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=2747

Democracy Palestinians most Admire//?

(Yes, Israel critics.. it's "apartheid" Israel])


Arab Showplace? Could It Be the West Bank?
By JAMES BENNET
NYTimes.com


JERUSALEM, April 1 — "The State of Palestine is a sovereign, independent republic." So — perhaps wistfully, perhaps with promise — begins the new draft of the Palestinian constitution.

[.....]

Closer to home, in the West Bank and Gaza, a generation growing up under Israeli control learned to resent central authority — indeed, any authority. Palestinian sociologists say the first intifada of the late 1980's was partly a rebellion of young men against fathers who had failed to liberate their families.

Lacking authority themselves, stateless Palestinians were free to criticize how others wielded it. "Palestinians under occupation had the luxury of being able to criticize everyone else without having to worry about what would happen to their heads the next day," said Khalil Shikaki, a Palestinian political scientist.

He said that Palestinians developed a "culture of criticism," scorning Arab presidencies that functioned like monarchies and telling themselves they would do better if they had the chance.

Palestinians also worked in Israel and watched Israeli television. They saw that, for its own citizens, the Israeli system had distinct virtues. This is not easy for even ardent Palestinian democrats to acknowledge.

Yet since 1996, Dr. Shikaki has been polling Palestinians about what governments they admire, and every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving more than 80 percent approval.
The American system has been the next best, followed by the French and then, distantly trailing, the Jordanian and Egyptian.

In its early days, the Palestinian Authority held fourth place, with about 50 percent approval. Now, it is dead last, under 20 percent. Corruption, mismanagement and the stagnation of the Palestinian predicament have turned the culture of criticism against the Palestinian rulers. ...."

[Mediocrates]

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=10266

Mofaz approves alternative barrier route

Defense Minister says path in accordance with court ruling which set principle of balance between security needs and degree of harm to Palestinian population. 10 points to be decided on after further discussion.
Amir Buhbut

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz has confirmed the alternative route of the security barrier, which includes significant changes in its current planned path.

The new route was planned following the ruling reached by the High Court of Justice by which 30 out of 40 km of the barrier in the greater Jerusalem area are illegal.

After justices had rendered their decision, Mofaz ordered all construction work be put to a halt and sent his officers back to the planning board to come up with an alternative in accordance with the court decision.

After a meeting held this evening at his bureau in Tel Aviv, which was attended by top defense brass, the defense minister said that the alternative “is in accordance with the ‘principal of balance’ set by the High Court� by which the barrier is meant to reduce the security threat as long as it does not harm the fabric of life of the local Palestinian population.

Mofaz approved the continuation of the planning processes based on the alternative route that was presented to him, except for 10 points on which he will decide on after another discussion.

The defense minister authorized the construction of the barrier in the area of Ofra. Problematic spots, like Givat Ze’ev, Beit Horon, Ofer and Modi’in Elit, are to be decided on a future date. Once approved in full, plan will be brought before the prime minister.


<<Not covered in NYT, BBC, CNN of course>>

[Mediocrates]

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=10262

Palestinian youth fabricates charges of abuse at checkpoint

Says he was beaten after asking permission to pray. Defense officials say he admits to lying.

Uri Glickman

At first it looked like another case of IDF brutality at a checkpoint: A Palestinian youth claimed he was beaten by IDF soldiers manning the Beit Fouriq checkpoint because he wanted to pray. The IDF denied the allegations, claiming that the Palestinian has admitted fabricating the accusations.

According to defense officials, the Palestinian youth was trying to leave Nablus in a car owned by an Israeli Arab in order to take advantage of the less stringent checks on Israeli citizens passing through the checkpoint. Soldiers manning the checkpoint apparently found the youth hiding in the vehicle and attempted to arrest him.

The youth tried to resist arrest and started running wild, harassing a woman soldier and attacking soldiers. He was eventually arrested and handcuffed. He later admitted to having made up the allegations of brutality.

Security sources claim that the timing of the incident was not a coincidence. It follows the disclosure yesterday of a brutal incident at a checkpoint near Nablus in which an IDF soldier beat, shot and seriously injured a Palestinian for calling him a "liar".

According to the IDF, Palestinians are using yesterday's incident for propaganda purposes. "Following yesterday's incident, Palestinians are trying to libel the army by fabricating stories of military brutality." The army is also furious at the media for reporting the incident as one of brutality.

[Mediocrates]

This is as good an explanation as any

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1090903953273


Europeans still blame Jews for their own suffering: 15% go so far as to justify terrorism and make Israel's right to exist conditional on the establishment of a Palestinian state. Fewer and fewer Europeans see Israel's existence as sacred.

[medkorp]

Hi,


Well, you are wrong!
Nobody in the Arab world cares about the "Palestinians". Arab in the region do want an end to the curroption of their ragimes and an end to poverty, and they do jealus about the freedom in the West, Israel included, the rule of law and personal security in Western world, which has no rival in human history.
Well, you're wrong!
Nobody cares about Israelians, arab in the region just want to leave in peace and want a job like everybody else !
Arab in the region are afraid about their leaders, so that's why the say nothing about them, because each time someone want to try, he finish in jail or something worse !
All the arabs leader are here since a long time, see the Egypt president, here since when ? And who's gonna be after him ? Moubarak is still an important american government friend ! And the Saudi leaders ?

But you're right when you say : much arabs want to improve their living standard ! But don't think they see that as american way of life, they want to keep their traditions and beliefs !

If you see Iran, the student uprising has made nothing, why ? because of the mollah ? Probably yes, but because the student movment too wasn't at the right time !


The most anciant way to stabilize the country in such conditions, and supress and grass roots demand for reforms, is by starting a war or by focusing the blame else where, at Jews, at ethnic minorities and out side powers. Most anciant trick in the book.
You're right, it's the same when America say: let's fight the terrorism and make war to Irak...Or beware of our arabs here in America, the usual trick...


The fact you people can't accept that truthes, but rather swallow Arab propaganda in gallons. There is a reason, I won't repeat, of why you choose one explaination, however false, over the truth, Israel represents.
Make me laugh, it's your point of view, not the reality ! I can say the same thing to you !


If this is the truth, then WHERE ARE the millions of Arab fighters? (answer: under thier bed, or dressed like women),
Arabs fighters ? Fighting what ? Fighting for who ? And why to see them under their beds ?


where are the Arab armies (stowed away)? Why does Egypt and Jorden keep their peace treaty with Israel? Why Egypt keeps open the channel and the Eilat gulf straits?

Are you joking ? Egypt is an america friend and has already acknowledged Israel ! The same thing for the OLP and the Palestinian people !


Because Arabs fear Jewish power tomuch, regardless the billions of military aid and advanced weapon Egypt recieves every year, and the French made shoulder missiles the Syrian has, and the billions of oil dollars, the Arabs have.

Arabs states aren't afraid of Israel, they are angry because of the behavior of Israel with Palestinian people ! Egypt and Syria has the right to have weapons, as Israel or Usa, so you can always cry about that, but don't forget that Israel too, sold weapons !


You don't have a clue what you're talking about, do ya?
Make me laugh with your basic propaganda...

Medkorp

[Gilgamesh]

Nobody cares about Israelians, We already noticed that. The UN and EU are biased against us, there for their are ignored.


arab in the region just want to leave in peace and want a job like everybody else ! No the aren't.


Arab in the region are afraid about their leaders, so that's why the say nothing about them, because each time someone want to try, he finish in jail or something worse ! Many despotic ragmies fell when they lost popular support. South Korea 1988, Argentina 1982, Greece (late 70's), Portugal (early 70's), France 1968, Russia 1991, East Germany 1987, Chechoslovika 1990, Romania 1992... This is only a limited list.

In all of these countries "something terrible" expected those who demonstarte against the ragime. One moment in time, people stopped carring about it, and the ragime fell. So the police terror in despotic ragime excuse, doesn't work anymore, and never did actualy.


All the arabs leader are here since a long time, see the Egypt president, here since when ? 1980


And who's gonna be after him ? Jimmie Moubarak, ofcourse!
But just like Shaa of Iran case, who also was a friend of Israel and the Western world, the ragime in Egypt could change over night. And then Israel will face hostile opperessive Egyption Iran.


Moubarak is still an important american government friend ! So is Saudia. Both counties are considered unreliable at best. Israel is a friend. France is not. And Egypt and Saudia are on standby before policy review. Both these countires poved to host terrorism and support terrorism. in varous degrees.


And the Saudi leaders ? There are considered "holy" and hold holy possitions as "gaurdians of the holy sites". Toppeling them demands also a religious reformation, usually to the worse.


But you're right when you say : much arabs want to improve their living standard ! But don't think they see that as american way of life, they want to keep their traditions and beliefs ! The Japaneese and Koreans and Indians, the Turks and we Israelis do not have an American way of life, but our own. We all keep our own traditions and beliefes. We also have a democracy. We see no collision what so ever between democracy and traditions. Techonolgy or democracy and traditions collide only if your ignorant religious bigot. Such thinking is true for Arabs, and some Africans. Not Jews, not Asians not every body else. The beliefe in such a collision is a myth supported by thierd world propaganda. They claim that backwardeness and bigotry are thier "human right", and seperate their "rights" from any personal responisbility for adehering real human rights or fighting poverty.

Arab traditions and beliefes do not support democracy. The lack of democracy, is the only reason for all of Arab woes.


If you see Iran, the student uprising has made nothing, why ? Too few and unsaported from out side forces.


because of the mollah ? Probably yes, but because the student movment too wasn't at the right time ! Hu??? :confused:

Student movement doesn't have enough of internal and external support. This is the problem. Too many Iranians are quite happey with their ragime. Just like the Arabs. They allways have some one to blame, a reason for their suffering, no responsibilities for themselves.


You're right, it's the same when America say: let's fight the terrorism and make war to Irak...Or beware of our arabs here in America, the usual trick... Why? You say Jews plant bombs all over Europe, all the time? Are you saying Jews are unreliable, treturous? Are you saying the black folk hold dangerous supermist opinions that call for the destruction of the West and force convesion? Do you blame Indians and Asian for disloyalty?

Arab are an exception. You must judge Arabs for what they are and not thier labels as "others" or "poor theird world inferiors..." . Arabs, the vast majority of them, hold Islamist supermist ideology, that included the subjegations of other nations, racism, and women and children slavory.


Make me laugh, it's your point of view, not the reality ! I can say the same thing to you ! No, you can not say the same to me. I live in a reality you only talk about. I meet Arabs and hear Arabs and talk to Arabs who regertable live in my country. You don't. I know many Jews who were born and rised in Arab countrys, and tell stories that my one hair stand. You don't know any of this. You just read Arab propaganda and vomit it out in forums like these.

I just warn you. If you'll bore me with reapetitive falsey and idiotic accusations, I'll ignore you, just like I ignore Oliever michael, Northlanders and others. Don't bore me, if you wish to keep up this conversation.


Arabs fighters ? Fighting what ? Fighting for who ? And why to see them under their beds ? Arabs are afraid of fighting us. Arabs only kill Jewish unarmed civilians, women children and elderly. There is no one fight they don't hide away, assume themselves wounded, dead, or harmless civilians. Often they hide under their beds or dress like women, and wet their pants when soldiers come to arrest them.

Same goes to Arabs in different Arab countries. They do not wish to fight us Israelis. They do not care about the "palestinians" to the degree of going to war for them. In other words, Arab abonden the "Palesinians" and all thier pro-palesinian crys and propaganda are hypocritical by nature.


Are you joking ? Egypt is an america friend and has already acknowledged Israel ! The same thing for the OLP and the Palestinian people ! The same was true with the Iranian Sha'a, just before the Islamist revolution there in 1979.

Oh... it's another example of a nation removing it's despotic ragime, through popular grass roots power.


Arabs states aren't afraid of Israel, they are angry because of the behavior of Israel with Palestinian people ! Yes, they are very afraid of Israel. One Jewish soldier equal a thousand arabs. How much Soviet or American weapons or soldiers arabs have, we Israelis alway come up on top, becuase we Jews are more cultural, more civilized and smarter then the Arabs, and Arab nations rather support different terror organizations or mass murder Jewish civilians and abondon the "Palestinians" instead of fighting against a Jewish army.


Egypt and Syria has the right to have weapons, as Israel or Usa, so you can always cry about that, but don't forget that Israel too, sold weapons ! Israel sells weapons to many countries, none of them are enemies of Israel or the USA. China is not an enemy of the USA, and not India.

[Mediocrates]

Ask that lunatic for some data or even to clafiy 'who' the pronouns are in that rant. Because it is, for the most part, my fellow Uriah Heepers notwithstanding, a straight up rip and read from the Egyptian or Syrian press. The very idea that the only problem to be solved in the entire middle east is Israel's surrender is official Egyptian press doctrine.

Laughable.
Wait - I should put in 3 million exclamation points cuz that would mean I speak the truth.

[CanDo]

Arabs states aren't afraid of Israel, they are angry because of the behavior of Israel with Palestinian people !

Medkorp

Before the Palestinians declared war (Intifada) against Israel, the Palestinian people had a higher standard of living and a better quality of life than the Arabs living in Arab countries.

Palestinians had good jobs in Israel and trade was good between Israelis and Palestinians.

Even now, as bad as it is for the Palestinians, they are still treated better by Israel than the horrible Palestinian treatment at the hands of Lebanon.

Why do you think that the world condemns Israel for the condition of the Palestinians in Gaza, but doesn't say a word against the horrible treatment of Palestinians by Lebanon?

[Mediocrates]

Because no one actually cares about the arabs, the palestinians, the shiites the sunnis the kurds or any of their silly wazirs, wazoos, emirs, potentates, mullahs, kings, princes and sheikhs. if they started eating babies in the middle of mecca tomorrow no one would have a comment, worry about it or do anything, no one would care. no one cared when kuwait expelled 230,000 pals, no one cared when Saddam murdered 400,000 of his own or a million of his own in the war with Iran, no one cared when Iran murdered a million of their own, no one cared when Egypt used chemical weapons in Yemen or when Syria levelled one of their own cities or when Algerian fundamentalists and the government killed an eighth of a million of one another or the squalid lunar landscape that is sudan or the disappearance of thousands of egyptians into their own gulag system or the disintegration of lebanon....and on and on.

No one cares. the only thing they care about it is a new better bigger badder Shoah.

[Mediocrates]

August 1 is the 60th anniversary of the Warsaw uprising. I would love to see a hundred thousand Israelis throw rocks at it that day in commemoration.

[CanDo]

if they started eating babies in the middle of mecca tomorrow no one would have a comment, worry about it or do anything, no one would care.

Arabs are held to a much lower standard than Jews. But why?


no one cared when kuwait expelled 230,000 pals, no one cared when Saddam murdered 400,000 of his own or a million of his own in the war with Iran, no one cared when Iran murdered a million of their own, no one cared when Egypt used chemical weapons in Yemen or when Syria levelled one of their own cities or when Algerian fundamentalists and the government killed an eighth of a million of one another or the squalid lunar landscape that is sudan or the disappearance of thousands of egyptians into their own gulag system or the disintegration of lebanon....and on and on.

It defies logic. There seems to be a perverse worldwide jealousy and envy of Jews resulting in holding Jews up to an extremely high standard, and holding others to a much lower standard. Arabs are expected to act brutal, so the world looks the other way when Arabs behave the way that they are expected to act.

Arabs declared war against Israel in 2000 (the intifada), which has caused tremendous misery for both sides. The world views it as the fault of Jews. The world insists that Israel negotiate with Arafat, the one who chose war over peace, and the one who refuses to stop the war.

And............ Even today, the world's Moslem leaders openly state that they KNOW that Jews run this world. How do civilized nations, such as Israel, deal with such obnoxious ignorance?

[Mediocrates]

Because

a) people hate Jews and their governments institutionalize it.
b) people are ennamored of exotic places that are not so far away they never plan on vacationing in some day.
c) people are stupid childish brutes who chant like schoolyard bullies about what's leeeeeeeegal because they are too lazy to have an original thought or an ethical one either.

[Mediocrates]

Adlai Stevenson on his posting to the UN:

"There is a disadvantage in being anywhere other than the seat of power. And every issue that comes to the U. N. has its antecedents before it gets here. The State Department has been involved in the negotiations, and now the situation has become insoluable, so it gets dumped onto us."

[medkorp]

Hi,


Originally Posted by medkorp
Nobody cares about Israelians,

We already noticed that. The UN and EU are biased against us, there for their are ignored.

Usual propaganda, Europe and the rest of the world is against the poor Israelis and Americans !

But could you tell me why you have quoted only a part of my phrase ? For your basic propaganda i suppose...

Quote:
arab in the region just want to leave in peace and want a job like everybody else !
No the aren't.

If it wasn't the case, the number of terrorist attack will be much greater, but of course you can't accept that ! It's easier for you to make all arabs terrorists !

Quote:
Arab in the region are afraid about their leaders, so that's why the say nothing about them, because each time someone want to try, he finish in jail or something worse !

Many despotic ragmies fell when they lost popular support. South Korea 1988, Argentina 1982, Greece (late 70's), Portugal (early 70's), France 1968, Russia 1991, East Germany 1987, Chechoslovika 1990, Romania 1992... This is only a limited list.

And so ? Each of these exemple tell only one thing : Only an uprising or revolution done by the people of this nation can change something ! Not another army for the good of the other !

But you're right in something, Arabs have to make their own revolution in most of their states ! But don't worry, there's a growing number of arabs who wants their states as a true democracy !


In all of these countries "something terrible" expected those who demonstarte against the ragime. One moment in time, people stopped carring about it, and the ragime fell. So the police terror in despotic ragime excuse, doesn't work anymore, and never did actualy.


Quote:
All the arabs leader are here since a long time, see the Egypt president, here since when ?
1980
Gilgamesh = 1 point !

Quote:
And who's gonna be after him ?
Jimmie Moubarak, ofcourse!
But just like Shaa of Iran case, who also was a friend of Israel and the Western world, the ragime in Egypt could change over night. And then Israel will face hostile opperessive Egyption Iran.
The Egyptian regime can change in a night ? Really, with all the needs that have this state ? No, Egypt need the USA aid !

But in your eyes, you are always seeing the Arabs like a danger for the Israelis ! At least in the future !


Quote:
Moubarak is still an important american government friend !

So is Saudia. Both counties are considered unreliable at best. Israel is a friend. France is not. And Egypt and Saudia are on standby before policy review. Both these countires poved to host terrorism and support terrorism. in varous degrees. |/quote]

And you still call Moubarak a friend ? At least when he stand in front of you ? But could you tell me when he become a terrorist ?

America, as usual doesn't see that her behavior in foreign politics, will be her true trouble ! America is an Empire, and as every Empire in the world, she will collapse !
[quote]Quote:
And the Saudi leaders ?

There are considered "holy" and hold holy possitions as "gaurdians of the holy sites". Toppeling them demands also a religious reformation, usually to the worse.
So you know the greatest islamist are there, but in the name of the Holy sites, you could do nothing ?

Nobody ask you to attack Saudi leaders, but to make true pressure on their nation ! There's not only the army power in diplomacy, you know ?

Quote:
But you're right when you say : much arabs want to improve their living standard ! But don't think they see that as american way of life, they want to keep their traditions and beliefs !

The Japaneese and Koreans and Indians, the Turks and we Israelis do not have an American way of life, but our own. We all keep our own traditions and beliefes. We also have a democracy. We see no collision what so ever between democracy and traditions. Techonolgy or democracy and traditions collide only if your ignorant religious bigot. Such thinking is true for Arabs, and some Africans. Not Jews, not Asians not every body else. The beliefe in such a collision is a myth supported by thierd world propaganda. They claim that backwardeness and bigotry are thier "human right", and seperate their "rights" from any personal responisbility for adehering real human rights or fighting poverty.

You can think such thing, but you can't say that all arabs are the same ! Such thing is like the German racist theories !

Just for example, i'm an french-arab, i'm a Microsoft engineer, so please don't make all people the same

Arab traditions and beliefes do not support democracy. The lack of democracy, is the only reason for all of Arab woes.
It's not a question of traditions or support ! Algéria is a democracy, as Tunisia or Turkey, some of these people have done a revolution to have their states !

But, as i said before, the greatest reason of the lack of democracy in Arabs nations is the oil ! Why ?
Because the oil nations need peace to exploit and sold oil ! And the others nations don't care about anything, except OIL !


Quote:
If you see Iran, the student uprising has made nothing, why ?

Too few and unsaported from out side forces.
To few ? With no outside help ? Are you joking ?

The real reason was they know want they don't want, not wha they want !

A revolution could only be possible if the people is with you ! Not with an army of another nation !

Quote:
because of the mollah ? Probably yes, but because the student movment too wasn't at the right time !

Hu???

Student movement doesn't have enough of internal and external support. This is the problem. Too many Iranians are quite happey with their ragime.
Wrong, you think that they are happy, it's not true, most of them are afraid by their leaders ! It's common in Arabs land !


Just like the Arabs. They allways have some one to blame, a reason for their suffering, no responsibilities for themselves.
Wrong again ! They have real reason to blame their leaders ! Do you think Iraki people are wrong to blame their ancient leaders ?

Quote:
You're right, it's the same when America say: let's fight the terrorism and make war to Irak...Or beware of our arabs here in America, the usual trick...

Why? You say Jews plant bombs all over Europe, all the time? Are you saying Jews are unreliable, treturous? Are you saying the black folk hold dangerous supermist opinions that call for the destruction of the West and force convesion? Do you blame Indians and Asian for disloyalty?
Why do you say Arabs plant bombs all over Europe, all the time ? It's not true !
Arabs haven't any trouble with Asia or India ! Arabs doesn't have any trouble at all ! Only Palestine with Israelis !


Arab are an exception. You must judge Arabs for what they are and not thier labels as "others" or "poor theird world inferiors..." . Arabs, the vast majority of them, hold Islamist supermist ideology, that included the subjegations of other nations, racism, and women and children slavory.
Wrong again ! Don't make your propaganda a real thing ! You make millions of Arabs terrorists because you don't understand them, i don't talk about real terrorists, but the people !


Quote:
Make me laugh, it's your point of view, not the reality ! I can say the same thing to you !

No, you can not say the same to me. I live in a reality you only talk about. I meet Arabs and hear Arabs and talk to Arabs who regertable live in my country.

Make me laugh, i'm an arab, all my family is still living in Algeria and Palestine, i talk Arab, so don't come to me and say: hey i know them !


You don't. I know many Jews who were born and rised in Arab countrys, and tell stories that my one hair stand. You don't know any of this. You just read Arab propaganda and vomit it out in forums like these.

Again, i see you know nothing about Arabs ! You come only on this forum, with your friends, but for me, i'm trying to really talk with others Jews or Arabs ! And for that i have to read differents newspaper :

-American, French, Israelis and sometimes Asian newspapers !

You always crying on the arab newspaper, but if you read, International Herald Tribune, New York Times, Washingtonpost, Jerusalem Post, The Hareetz, LeMonde and others newspapers, i can find the same trouble : Israel and Palestine !


I just warn you. If you'll bore me with reapetitive falsey and idiotic accusations, I'll ignore you, just like I ignore Oliever michael, Northlanders and others. Don't bore me, if you wish to keep up this conversation.
You have already bored me, so...as the others you can ignore me, like this you can always think you're right ! But don't forget i'm an arab, and i know them much more than you !


Quote:
Arabs fighters ? Fighting what ? Fighting for who ? And why to see them under their beds ?

Arabs are afraid of fighting us. Arabs only kill Jewish unarmed civilians, women children and elderly. There is no one fight they don't hide away, assume themselves wounded, dead, or harmless civilians. Often they hide under their beds or dress like women, and wet their pants when soldiers come to arrest them.
You simply say too much stupidities ! There's no war between America and another Arab nation ! The Israel and Palestine trouble is not a war ! And Palestinian are not representative of the Arabs !

All the last great war in the world Arabs troops have been here, so you can always say that they are cowards, but it's only in for your agenda !



Medkorp

[medkorp]

Same goes to Arabs in different Arab countries. They do not wish to fight us Israelis. They do not care about the "palestinians" to the degree of going to war for them. In other words, Arab abonden the "Palesinians" and all thier pro-palesinian crys and propaganda are hypocritical by nature.
True for the leader of each Arabs nations, untrue for eahc people of these lands !

As i say, Arabs leaders don't care about anything, safe their power ! For the people it's different, they are afraid about their leaders (what's why, there is no revolution in these states) and the see the Palestinian way of life, offered by Israel !
Quote:
Are you joking ? Egypt is an america friend and has already acknowledged Israel ! The same thing for the OLP and the Palestinian people !

The same was true with the Iranian Sha'a, just before the Islamist revolution there in 1979. [/quote]
Oh, yes and the same was true with the roman empire !!! But at least, OLP who is still there, has already acknowledged Israel, you can't say, yes but in the future !


Quote:
Arabs states aren't afraid of Israel, they are angry because of the behavior of Israel with Palestinian people !

Yes, they are very afraid of Israel. One Jewish soldier equal a thousand arabs. How much Soviet or American weapons or soldiers arabs have, we Israelis alway come up on top, becuase we Jews are more cultural, more civilized and smarter then the Arabs, and Arab nations rather support different terror organizations or mass murder Jewish civilians and abondon the "Palestinians" instead of fighting against a Jewish army.
Again, you say only stupidities !
You have a real touble of Illusion of grandeur !
Israeli people are as the ohter people ! Men ! That's all !

After it's only weapons technologies who made the difference !


Quote:
Egypt and Syria has the right to have weapons, as Israel or Usa, so you can always cry about that, but don't forget that Israel too, sold weapons !

Israel sells weapons to many countries, none of them are enemies of Israel or the USA. China is not an enemy of the USA, and not India.
If you were true, so why America has forbidden to Israel to sold some weapons to China ? Because the real power behind Israel, is only USA !

Medkorp

[Gilgamesh]

If it wasn't the case, the number of terrorist attack will be much greater, but of course you can't accept that ! It's easier for you to make all arabs terrorists ! [/b] There reason for the sharp drop in Arab terrorism in Israel is Israel's succesful war against Arab terrorism. Arab terrorists are killed or arested. They are to coward to move! This is the reason why a drop in terrorim occures today.

The drop in terrorism in Israel, says nothing about Arab's blood lust, Arab evilness or Arab cruelty, which in lack of Jews, Arab project it onto other Arabs. In this moment in history, only Arabs are suffering more from Arab terrorism then Jews.


And so ? Each of these exemple tell only one thing : Only an uprising or revolution done by the people of this nation can change something ! Not another army for the good of the other ! Foreign intervention often hastes such changes. See Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, Nikaragua, Haity and many other places.


But you're right in something, Arabs have to make their own revolution in most of their states ! Yet they don't. The only revolutions in Arab states since the end of French bloody crule colonialism, made things only worse. Arabs, it seems, are stuck a thousand years behind the West, which means over 4,000 years behind us Jews. It seems that the different dispots of the Arab world are loved and favoured by their people.

I always believed that if Israel would use half the tactics of prince Hasan of Jorden or Asad senior, against the "palestinians" we already had peace by now. Arabs understand force, they say so to me in person, so many times. Israel, oviousely, do not make use of all of our force against the Arabs, and war persistes.

In 1973, Yom Kippur war, Israel was under amansed international and American pressure for Sharon NOT to take Cairo, and for Hofny NOT to concqure Damasacus and put in on blaze. Now I know, Israel should have ignored the pressure and raze both cities to the ground. Only following such a move, there would have been peace in the ME and we Jews and Arabs could have live truely like brothers.

Unfortuntly, such a scenario rests only in the future, and many Arabs and few Jews would die till then.


But don't worry, there's a growing number of arabs who wants their states as a true democracy ! No, there is none, outside your imagination of course, and my good wishes. Arabs love thier despotic ragime and replace it only for a far more crule and despotic Islamist supermict ragime.

Or else, a revolution had occured, or at the very least, the USA would not be that criticised by Arabs for toppeling Saddam Hussain. So, the Arab world whole attitude prove the other way of what you say.

In a nut shell, you lie, madkorp.


The Egyptian regime can change in a night ? Really, with all the needs that have this state ? No, Egypt need the USA aid ! Since when an Islamist ragime care about it's population? about needs? about anything?

USA aid is mostly military by nature. Over 1bn US$ for Egypt to buy tanks and F-16 to fight Israel in the next war. The Aid has little influance of the general population.

"Over night", is an expression used to describe short interval of time. What happened to Iran in 1979 (with the help of the French) when an Islamist ragime took over, could happen in Egypt. Giving the fact that the current ragime is pro American (just like the Sha'a ragime in Iran on right to the eve of the Islamist revolution), EU has a keen interest in the Islamisation of Egypt. The ragime can change there, very fast. All is dependent on the loyalty of the Army. The Army is made of a million Egyptions, and the overall Egyption population is becoming Islamist.


But in your eyes, you are always seeing the Arabs like a danger for the Israelis ! At least in the future ! [quote] Lets analys Israelis fear of Arabs... let's think togather: terrorism and pogroms upto 1948, a war (which 7 Arab armies lost against largely unarmed Isaeli army), Arab terrorism which leads to another war (1956), terrorism, another war (1967), more terrorism, war of attrition (1968) Arab sneak attack (1973) which failed miserabley for the Arabs, more Arab terrorism, continiouse shelling of Israeli northern civilian towns which leads to another war (1982) more terrorism and no we are in a middle of another war... other then that... Israel has no real reason to fear the Arabs. :rolleyes:

[Quote]And you still call Moubarak a friend ? At least when he stand in front of you ? But could you tell me when he become a terrorist ? When he support PLO terrorism (the PLO was a creation of Egyption inteligiance, Arafat is Egyption who talk in Egyption accent and was a soldier in Egyption army in 56 ), and doesn't fight against the Egyption Islamist Jihad. The back bone of Al Quida.

My goverment supports the arms truth with Egypt today. But personaly, I never considered Mubarak a friend.

[Gilgamesh]

America, as usual doesn't see that her behavior in foreign politics, will be her true trouble ! America is an Empire, and as every Empire in the world, she will collapse ! Oh, that is true! But you'll have to wait over a thousand years for that. BTW, China, is an empire. It holds togather for 2,000 years. So there is a hole in your cliche.

The defenition of an Empire is the defeation and contorl of foreign nations against their wish. Can you name me ONE such nation in American history (other then American Indians), the USA controls imperialisticly? (I can, but you don't know history as good as me).


So you know the greatest islamist are there, but in the name of the Holy sites, you could do nothing ? I am trying to get into Arab primitive thinking here. The Saudi dynesty rulls high since the late 18th Century. The Saudies power base is Wahabism and infinant cruelty. My argument holds.


Nobody ask you to attack Saudi leaders, but to make true pressure on their nation ! There's not only the army power in diplomacy, you know ? I don't believe Arabs are capable to understand anything other then military power. Prove me wrong if you can...


You can think such thing, but you can't say that all arabs are the same ! Such thing is like the German racist theories ! What do you know of German racist theoris? You just pop it into the air and wait for the consequances... you shoot into the dark...

Or better yet: Your equate Arabs with Jews, blameing Arabs for terrorism is similar to German racist theorys. Well, Since Arabs are terrorists, or supportive of them. Does that make German racist theory right about Jews?

I'll give you my own WWII analogy, madkorp.
Although the Nazis were a party within Nazi Germany, only a million or so out of over 60 million Germans, it is a fact that the majority of the Germans could have avoiding assitance and stop collaborating with the Nazis's plans of world domination and the holocaust. None of the Nazis plans, like world war and holocaust could have been possible, without the emance support of all of their poeple. Same goes for the new Nazis, the Arab Islamist terrorists. Although they are practicly a minority, their actions could never taken place without the active involvement and support of the majority of muslem Arabs.

Arab terrorists do no originate from outer space, from planet mars. They come from among the ranks of cultur and ideology common among Arabs. Even if not all Arabs are al quida, many of them hold al quidia party memebership card.


Just for example, i'm an french-arab, i'm a Microsoft engineer, so please don't make all people the same I won't taunt you with the first question pops into my mind (like: "how many Jews you stabbed today"). I don't believe though, you are a Microsoft engineer. Maybe an Islam student. But even if I assume that you personaly is realy different then all rest of the ARabs, I (my country, my people) can't make a peace with single most unusual Arab. And even then, I can't trust you to keep you peace treaty. All Arabs I know, change their heart very fast, very often, about everything (from tea to politics, just everything)


It's not a question of traditions or support ! Algéria is a democracy, as Tunisia or Turkey, some of these people have done a revolution to have their states ! ROFL!!! Algeria is a democracy!!! LOL!!! :D ... It's a good one! Never thought before, Arabs got sense of humour...


But, as i said before, the greatest reason of the lack of democracy in Arabs nations is the oil ! Why ?
Because the oil nations need peace to exploit and sold oil ! And the others nations don't care about anything, except OIL ! To this I can agree. However, it is only true about the Gulf states. Iraq just had a war, in contradiction of USA short term oil interests. The rest of the Arab world, doesn't have oil (or can't produce it right now, like Libia and Sudan). In these countries, where there is no oil (like Syria, Egypt, Tunisa), your argument does not hold.


To few ? With no outside help ? Are you joking ? I am not jokeing, and a demonstration in Paris is no real help.


The real reason was they know want they don't want, not wha they want ! Interesting point, but totally unrelated to reality. Iran already have several democratic institutions, with laws and other institutions that prevent democracy. What the Iranian want is less power to the Ayattulas, more power to parlament. It's simple enough.


A revolution could only be possible if the people is with you ! Not with an army of another nation ! Is that so? Give me ONE such proof in history, recent or anciant.


Wrong, you think that they are happy, it's not true, most of them are afraid by their leaders ! It's common in Arabs land ! We already been there, didn't we? (I gave you a list of despotic ragimes who fell by popular revolution, mass demonstration of the people) I can agree with you on one thing though. Arabs are cowerds and proved that repeatedly.


Wrong again ! They have real reason to blame their leaders ! Do you think Iraki people are wrong to blame their ancient leaders ? Arabs are right to blame their leadership for their woes. But they don't do that. The only real opposition to Arab ragimes is from the Islamists, not from democratic and human rights organizations, local or out side.


Why do you say Arabs plant bombs all over Europe, all the time ? It's not true ! Really? Can you make the difference between an Arab terrorists and a "normal" Arab? No one can! This is because such difference does not exists.


Arabs haven't any trouble with Asia or India ! Arabs doesn't have any trouble at all ! Only Palestine with Israelis ! Where ever there are Arabs and muslems, there is war and bloodshed. Within Arab countries and every where else around the glob. Most of the wars fought, includes Islamist ideology in at least one of the sides.


Wrong again ! Don't make your propaganda a real thing ! You make millions of Arabs terrorists because you don't understand them, i don't talk about real terrorists, but the people ! I understand Arabs perfectly when they cry out loud in masses: "massacre the Jews!!! , death to America"


Make me laugh, i'm an arab, all my family is still living in Algeria and Palestine, i talk Arab, so don't come to me and say: hey i know them ! We both know Arabs, only you lie about them. I don't.


Again, i see you know nothing about Arabs ! You come only on this forum, with your friends, but for me, i'm trying to really talk with others Jews or Arabs ! And for that i have to read differents newspaper : -American, French, Israelis and sometimes Asian newspapers ! No body asked you to be here. This is not your forum, this is not your place. Unless you bring some new info over here, I'll ignore you.

Madkorp, go back to Ummah forum, or killAmerica forum or what ever forum you came from and leave us be.


You always crying on the arab newspaper, but if you read, International Herald Tribune, New York Times, Washingtonpost, Jerusalem Post, The Hareetz, LeMonde and others newspapers, i can find the same trouble : Israel and Palestine ! True, but from different angels. I stongly recommand you to read Jerusalem post. This is a real paper. The rest is garbage, (regarding this issue)


You have already bored me, so...as the others you can ignore me, like this you can always think you're right ! But don't forget i'm an arab, and i know them much more than you ! You are making a bad lier.


You simply say too much stupidities ! There's no war between America and another Arab nation ! The Israel and Palestine trouble is not a war ! And Palestinian are not representative of the Arabs ! The "Palestinian" terrorists have the same affiliation and the same ideology as al quida. Hammas is a branch of the Islamist brotherhood for one example. Israel is only one of many fronts between civilization and the Arab hord.


All the last great war in the world Arabs troops have been here, so you can always say that they are cowards, but it's only in for your agenda ! You are wrong to say Arabs hadn't participated in the great wars. Arabs were important allies of Nazi Germany. the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitler's personal friend, and he helped mobilizing the Bosnian muslems to genocide Serbs and Jews in WWII.

Arabs are cowards, that despite all their numerical superiority, oil money, Soviet technology and weaponary, Soviet military consultance... Arabs lost their wars to us Jews.

Arabs are cowards today, because they target Jewish babies in their beds, children and elderly, while cowering under their bads, dress like women, or run to other Arab countries just to avoid fighting our soldiers. Arabs are cowards, got no honor. Personaly I don't consider most Arabs as real men at all. You have 3 kinds of people: men, women and Arabs. I say so only while looking at the facts.

[Gilgamesh]

True for the leader of each Arabs nations, untrue for eahc people of these lands ! Arabs are coward. Not just their leaders. Arabs, common Arabs like you, all cowards. Brave on children and harmless, but run fast from soldiers, American or Israeli.


As i say, Arabs leaders don't care about anything, safe their power ! For the people it's different, they are afraid about their leaders (what's why, there is no revolution in these states) and the see the Palestinian way of life, offered by Israel ! I don't buy that lie of yours. You repeat it constantly and I proved you this is not a real excuse.

There is no revolution in Arab worlds because 1. Arabs are cowards, 2. Arabs love thier oppresive ragime.


Oh, yes and the same was true with the roman empire !!! Other then spelling, you know nothing of the Romans, aren't you? The Romans decayed over centuries. They got nothing to do with these posts.


Again, you say only stupidities !
You have a real touble of Illusion of grandeur !
Israeli people are as the ohter people ! Men ! That's all ! So many FACTS and HISTORICAL evidances proved other wise. A Jewish soldier is the best in the world, because he is Jewish, an Jewish scientists and thinkers gave more to the world then any other scholars. Jewish over all contribution to the world excell any other nation contribution, aspecialy when compared to Jews numerical size relative to any other nation.

My "illusions" are based on hard rock facts.

Arabs, on the other hand... are a growing burden. And attmept to make and equasion betwean Jews and others, mostly to Arabs, is a lie and an insult.


After it's only weapons technologies who made the difference ! True! Arabs had superior technology in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973! And lost all the time!


If you were true, so why America has forbidden to Israel to sold some weapons to China ? Because the real power behind Israel, is only USA ! Because the USA want to sell the technology by itself.

USA is no power behind Israel, because local made weapons is far superior then any American weapon. Aspecialy missiles. It is all domastic technology. In fact, Americans and others often purchase Israeli technology to their weapon systems and civilian products.

So, there is no way, the USA is responsible for Israel's greatness. Aspecialy when the USA aids Egypt and fights for Arab countries.

[medkorp]

Hi,


There reason for the sharp drop in Arab terrorism in Israel is Israel's succesful war against Arab terrorism. Arab terrorists are killed or arested. They are to coward to move! This is the reason why a drop in terrorim occures today.
Arabs aren't coward, no more or no less as other men ! They don't have the same weapons technologies as Israel or USA, and they don't have the same goal ! Palestinian don't want a war they want their territories !

You can call them coward, you clearly show how stupid you are ! Anybody who can't stand in front of an enemy will try to hurt him by other means !

Do you know David and Goliath ? Do you think David was a coward ? Or do you think the Diaspora was a coward act ?


The drop in terrorism in Israel, says nothing about Arab's blood lust, Arab evilness or Arab cruelty, which in lack of Jews, Arab project it onto other Arabs. In this moment in history, only Arabs are suffering more from Arab terrorism then Jews.
Arab blood lust ? You really doesn't know them ! If your telling was true, the number of terrorist attack will be much more greater !


Foreign intervention often hastes such changes. See Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, Nikaragua, Haity and many other places.

Oh yes Haiti and Nicaragua, are really good places to be since the USA help !
And if you know your history, democracy was already in place in Europe, long before the war ! Only Japan has really changed, but don't forget 2 nuclear bombs were launched against them, and after that the number of the american soldiers were send in Japan for years !

And could you tell me wich other states america has helped ? Afghanistan ? Liban ? Mexico ?


Yet they don't. The only revolutions in Arab states since the end of French bloody crule colonialism, made things only worse. Arabs, it seems, are stuck a thousand years behind the West, which means over 4,000 years behind us Jews. It seems that the different dispots of the Arab world are loved and favoured by their people.
Arabs aren't so blind as you, they know they have to make efforts in several domains as economy, democracy, standard of living, etc...

You tell me that you know history ! And now you tell me that arabs love their leaders ? Do you know saddam, khomeiny, atta turk, king of jordan, the fln, bourguiba, moubarak, and the others ?

All these men and movment have done terribles things to their peoples, and now you think arabs love them ? Nobody can love a man who hurt you, even arabs !


I always believed that if Israel would use half the tactics of prince Hasan of Jorden or Asad senior, against the "palestinians" we already had peace by now. Arabs understand force, they say so to me in person, so many times. Israel, oviousely, do not make use of all of our force against the Arabs, and war persistes.

Who doesn't understand force ? But the day he can harm you too, don't be amazed ! Nobody is stupid enough to go against an armed guy, unless he have weapons too ! And it's not the case of Palestinians !


In 1973, Yom Kippur war, Israel was under amansed international and American pressure for Sharon NOT to take Cairo, and for Hofny NOT to concqure Damasacus and put in on blaze. Now I know, Israel should have ignored the pressure and raze both cities to the ground. Only following such a move, there would have been peace in the ME and we Jews and Arabs could have live truely like brothers.
Truly stupid answer ! After 54 years of trouble in the ME, you still think that brute force can help you ! Tell me a men can love the men who kill his brother ?


Unfortuntly, such a scenario rests only in the future, and many Arabs and few Jews would die till then.
Yes


No, there is none, outside your imagination of course, and my good wishes. Arabs love thier despotic ragime and replace it only for a far more crule and despotic Islamist supermict ragime.
Wrong again, you haven't any good wish for arabs people, you only care about Israel and maybe Usa, that's all !

Arabs are afraid of their leaders, specially the one who are helped by foreign states ! See Moubarak, or Musharaf and the others ! Arabs people know that they can do nothing, because the state need stability, most of the time for the foreign states reasons (oil, petrol, etc)

See the story of saddam and his people ! Usa and others states already know saddam at this time, but with the Iranian trouble, saddam was clearly a friend and cannot be overthrown ! Only in foreign nations, of course !


Or else, a revolution had occured, or at the very least, the USA would not be that criticised by Arabs for toppeling Saddam Hussain. So, the Arab world whole attitude prove the other way of what you say.

saddam was a dictator, there's no trouble on that, for any arabs ! Unless true terrorists ! But Arabs are against the war america made against Irak, a war with no clues, only oil has the interest for the Usa leaders, not the Irakis !

And it's the same for you, you doesn't care at all for the Arabs, you don't speak about liberty, standard of living, or equality between man and woman, but only war, brute force and Weapons technologies !


In a nut shell, you lie, madkorp.
Laugh...


Since when an Islamist ragime care about it's population? about needs? about anything?
Never, so after that, i can't understant why you think arabs love their leaders...


USA aid is mostly military by nature. Over 1bn US$ for Egypt to buy tanks and F-16 to fight Israel in the next war. The Aid has little influance of the general population.
Yes the Usa really sold weapons everywhere, but in the final, it's to the leaders to choose where the money goes ! And in the Arabs states, the level of corruption is very high !

Again, after that, i truly don't understand why Arabs love theirs leaders ? Perhaps you are wrong ! :D


"Over night", is an expression used to describe short interval of time. What happened to Iran in 1979 (with the help of the French) when an Islamist ragime took over, could happen in Egypt. Giving the fact that the current ragime is pro American (just like the Sha'a ragime in Iran on right to the eve of the Islamist revolution), EU has a keen interest in the Islamisation of Egypt. The ragime can change there, very fast. All is dependent on the loyalty of the Army. The Army is made of a million Egyptions, and the overall Egyption population is becoming Islamist.
You are really mad you know ? You see the world with only two colors ! If we don't agree with you, we are an enemy ! America is really becoming a banana republic ! Only brute force is used...

The Iranian ragime has been brought by several nations : Usa, France and England ! But of course you see only khomeiny who was living in france...

Oh, remind me, could you tell me who has made saddam, al-queda, and helped every terrorist group in the world, if their agenda was the same for a moment ?


[quote]But in your eyes, you are always seeing the Arabs like a danger for the Israelis ! At least in the future ! [quote] Lets analys Israelis fear of Arabs... let's think togather: terrorism and pogroms upto 1948, a war (which 7 Arab armies lost against largely unarmed Isaeli army), Arab terrorism which leads to another war (1956), terrorism, another war (1967), more terrorism, war of attrition (1968) Arab sneak attack (1973) which failed miserabley for the Arabs, more Arab terrorism, continiouse shelling of Israeli northern civilian towns which leads to another war (1982) more terrorism and no we are in a middle of another war... other then that... Israel has no real reason to fear the Arabs. :rolleyes:
Israel unarmed ? Make me laugh ! Oh yes it was David against Goliath ! But Israel will the help of God win this war...

Arabs have started a war, and have lost, there's no problem on that ! But the real trouble is not Arabs, but Palestinians, Israel have to accept the UN resolution, a Palestinian state has to be created ! After that war Israel has gained much more territories, so now Israel has to follow UN resolution has the other states in the world !


When he support PLO terrorism (the PLO was a creation of Egyption inteligiance, Arafat is Egyption who talk in Egyption accent and was a soldier in Egyption army in 56 ), and doesn't fight against the Egyption Islamist Jihad. The back bone of Al Quida.
Don't worry, it's not you who's gonna tell me the story of Arafat ! There's no problem he was an Egyptian, he was the only man who really fought for the creation of Palestine and that's why he's the leader !


My goverment supports the arms truth with Egypt today. But personaly, I never considered Mubarak a friend.
I has already understand that you have no arabs friends and you don't want one ! It's the same for your goverment, it's only agenda !

Medkorp

[Gilgamesh]

Arabs aren't coward, no more or no less as other men ! Arabs are cowards. Jews are brave. Arabs murder Jewish children. Jews fight Arab terrorists. Simple enough for you?


They don't have the same weapons technologies as Israel or USA, and they don't have the same goal ! Palestinian don't want a war they want their territories ! What arab expect after so many massacres of our civilians? That we stand by and cheer? Arabs asked for a war. We stood by doing nothing for over 17 monthes, before defensive sheild. Arabs got exactly what they asked for.

As for technology. If Arabs are technologicly inferior, why start a war they would lose? Or do they expect Israelis to use THEIR low tech tactics? Would the Arabs be understandable if Jews would bomb their buses and weddings and cafes? We can, you know, but we don't.

Also, In several Israeli-Arab wars, the Arabs had the technological advantage, having most advanced Soviet weaponary free of charge in un limited ammounts. Yet we Israelis won the war, with WWII weapons. Reason: Arabs are cowards. We are not cowards. We fight our opressors.

Looks like they got a war, and LESS territories. Great way to go, to start a war against Jews. Which also prove you how stupid arabs are.


You can call them coward, you clearly show how stupid you are ! Anybody who can't stand in front of an enemy will try to hurt him by other means ! Like murdering their children? I call this cowardise. Arab's had a choise not to start the war. Now they weep over the consequances of their own actions. Serve them well.


Do you know David and Goliath ? Do you think David was a coward ? Love this story. The proper analogy is that Israel is David, not Goliat. First, because Israel won each and every conflict, just like OUR king David.

Next, the Arab world is over 500 the size of Isael, and 60 times the population of Jews in Israel. With all the oil dollars and political dominaion of international diplomacy. Yet, Arabs can do NOTHING of meaning against us. Israel is stronger then the whole Arab world put togather and their European allies. All odds are against Israel, yet Israel won all the time.


Or do you think the Diaspora was a coward act ? Diaspora created when Jews of Judea where massacred by the Romans and the rest chained and sent overseas. But I am a Zionist. I am for ending the diaspora whatever the obstacles secrifices or costs. We Jews are returing for the very same towns built by our forefathers, most importantly our beloved city Jerusalem, city of Zion.


Arab blood lust ? You really doesn't know them ! If your telling was true, the number of terrorist attack will be much more greater ! Arabs are cowards and we kill or arrest Arab terrorists. This is the reason there is little terrorism these days. Arab blood lust for jewish children remains intact, Arab got only bigger difficulties to satesfy their blood lust.


Oh yes Haiti and Nicaragua, are really good places to be since the USA help ! but better then they used to be. Of course the USA may help more.


And if you know your history, democracy was already in place in Europe, long before the war ! Go back to history. Read some history books before you spout none sense.


Only Japan has really changed, but don't forget 2 nuclear bombs were launched against them, and after that the number of the american soldiers were send in Japan for years ! Good point! I suggest to do the same to Iran and each and every Arab dictatorial ragime. Maybe that will improve the situation in the ME. Don't you think?

Japan was not the only country to change. As I said before, you should read more history instead of inventing brand new one. I know my history, you can't fool me with your none sense.


And could you tell me wich other states america has helped ? Afghanistan ? Liban ? Mexico ? Hopefuly, Iraq. Grenada, Cuba (1901), Philipenes, Panama... Want me to go on?


Arabs aren't so blind as you, they know they have to make efforts in several domains as economy, democracy, standard of living, etc... Al right! Why don't they do such an effort? They only blame others for thier own failurs and their own poverty.


You tell me that you know history ! And now you tell me that arabs love their leaders ? Do you know saddam, khomeiny, atta turk, king of jordan, the fln, bourguiba, moubarak, and the others ? Yes of course! Or else, the poeple would remove them in a popular revolution. The same as happened in so many other places. But Arabs are cowards.


All these men and movment have done terribles things to their peoples, and now you think arabs love them ? Nobody can love a man who hurt you, even arabs ! I know the Arabs just adore their leaders. Worship them even. The more an Arab leader hurt his people, the more he is loved. Dare tell me it is not true!


Who doesn't understand force ? But the day he can harm you too, don't be amazed ! Nobody is stupid enough to go against an armed guy, unless he have weapons too ! And it's not the case of Palestinians ! We are that stupid. We fought Arabs with little weapons in 48 and won. We fought 7 fully Armed Arab armies, and won. Jews fought the Nazis with no weapons. It's matter of honor, which Arabs never had any.


Truly stupid answer ! After 54 years of trouble in the ME, you still think that brute force can help you ! We tried any other option and failed. Brute force is the only thing that Arabs appriciate. Arabs started so many wars and conducted so much terrorism. Do Arabs think this is the right way forward? Don't they know they can hurt as but never defeat us? Arabs only think that brute force can help them, but so many decades of warfare proved the opposite. Yet, they never learn.


Tell me a men can love the men who kill his brother ? Arabs murdered many of my brotherens. This is the reason I don't like Arabs very much. Nazis also murdered millions of my brotherens. There for I don't like Germans very much either.

Arab love their leaders who massacre them, and send them to lost wars against Jews. See Nasser.


Wrong again, you haven't any good wish for arabs people, you only care about Israel and maybe Usa, that's all ! True! The Arabs should care for themselves like anybody else. Start with bring down their despot leaders for a start.


Arabs are afraid of their leaders, specially the one who are helped by foreign states ! See Moubarak, or Musharaf and the others ! Arabs people know that they can do nothing, because the state need stability, most of the time for the foreign states reasons (oil, petrol, etc) Had there been a pro-democratic ragime revolution, the USA would have help that. The rest is Arab excuses for doing nothing. Save a little of their honor by blaming others.


See the story of saddam and his people ! Usa and others states already know saddam at this time, but with the Iranian trouble, saddam was clearly a friend and cannot be overthrown ! Only in foreign nations, of course ! 14 years there were sanctions against Sadam. Who helped him then? Only the Europeans, the French and Germans who ignored UN sanctions, not the USA. 14 years Arabs could have overthrown Saddam Hussain. Saddam's army could have turn against him. Yet, it never happened.


saddam was a dictator, there's no trouble on that, for any arabs ! Unless true terrorists ! But Arabs are against the war america made against Irak, a war with no clues, only oil has the interest for the Usa leaders, not the Irakis ! Are you happey with that Saddam is gone or don't you? Are you happey with Saddams seacret police not mass murdering people or don't you?

You are a hypocrite and ungreatful. That what you are. First you weep about USA strengtheining Aab despotic ragimes, and then you weep when USA bring them down.

AS for oil, the USA troubled for keeping global stratigic reasource out of the hands of despots and terrorists. The USA acted against it's short term oil intrests.


And it's the same for you, you doesn't care at all for the Arabs, you don't speak about liberty, standard of living, or equality between man and woman, but only war, brute force and Weapons technologies ! Why should I care about ARab standard of living? You wan't me to care? You want me to occupay Arabs and tell them what to do or not to do?

Arabs are free to make their own choises and solve their own problems. This is what liberty is all about. You don't see Israelis asking the Arabs to solve our domastic economic crises, we solve them by our own.


Never, so after that, i can't understant why you think arabs love their leaders... Because other wise, these ARab leaders were dead now.
No revolution==Arab love their leaders;


Yes the Usa really sold weapons everywhere, but in the final, it's to the leaders to choose where the money goes ! And in the Arabs states, the level of corruption is very high ! Then change your ragime and curroption will be lowered.

[Gilgamesh]

Again, after that, i truly don't understand why Arabs love theirs leaders ? Perhaps you are wrong ! Arab love their leaders because otherwise, these Arab leaders were dead now, there was a revolution. There is no revolution=Arab love their leaders.


You are really mad you know ? You see the world with only two colors ! If we don't agree with you, we are an enemy ! America is really becoming a banana republic ! Only brute force is used... Tell this to other Arabs, who started all the wars in against Israel and responsible for most of the terrorism around the world. We use force, when we are attacked (or about to be attacked). When Arabs will forsake vilance against us Jews, we will have other options other then force.


The Iranian ragime has been brought by several nations : Usa, France and England ! But of course you see only khomeiny who was living in france... The USA maybe didn't done enough in time to stop the Islamist revolution in Iran, but it is clearly against USA interest. At the time, there was real stupid president (Carter) who understood little of what goes on around him. (To this day)


Oh, remind me, could you tell me who has made saddam, al-queda, and helped every terrorist group in the world, if their agenda was the same for a moment ? USA cooperated with organizations and leaders produced by Arabs for Arabs. USA merely made use of what was available. But whom am I to defend USA? I am Israeli, not American. Israel never liked American relationship with early Al Quidia or Saddam Hussain.


But in your eyes, you are always seeing the Arabs like a danger for the Israelis ! At least in the future ! Aren't they?


Israel unarmed ? Make me laugh ! Oh yes it was David against Goliath ! But Israel will the help of God win this war... of course! The One G-d all mighty is on our side. Pity Arabs can't see and recognize that fact after so many decades of war that cost the Arabs so many lives. It was G-d's will, that we Israelis won so many wars and battles. Yet the Arabs can't accept that. Pity. Arabs should never act against the will of G-d.


Arabs have started a war, and have lost, there's no problem on that ! But the real trouble is not Arabs, but Palestinians, Israel have to accept the UN resolution, a Palestinian state has to be created ! After that war Israel has gained much more territories, so now Israel has to follow UN resolution has the other states in the world ! Arabs got more territories. Let the Palestinian state be created on Arab territories.

There is NO UN resolution that commands the creation of a Palestinian state.


Don't worry, it's not you who's gonna tell me the story of Arafat ! There's no problem he was an Egyptian, he was the only man who really fought for the creation of Palestine and that's why he's the leader ! Told you Arabs love thier oppresive leaders. You just proved it again.

Arafat "fighting" is mostly the bombing of our civilians or shelling of our towns (in the 70's from Lebanon).


I has already understand that you have no arabs friends and you don't want one ! It's the same for your goverment, it's only agenda ! Arabs have to prove us they want to be our friends. but for some reason, I don't trust them.

[Canajew]

sorry, I had to jump in.



Arabs aren't coward, no more or no less as other men ! They don't have the same weapons technologies as Israel or USA, and they don't have the same goal ! Palestinian don't want a war they want their territories !

In order to engage in any meaningful dialogue about groups of people, it is necessary to generalize. Generalizations apply fairly well to the collective but break down when they are applied to individuals within that collective.

With respect to "Arabs as cowards", I would both agree and disagree. Certainly I do not believe that there is anything genetic in any people or group of people that make them more or less cowardly than others. In essence, every person is as POTENTIALLY brave as any other. However, "nurture" factors will cause people to be more brave or less brave. And part of these nuture factors is the culture, the environment one grows up in. Arab soldiers have historically been fairly cowardly, but from what I have seen, this stems mostly from the fact that 1 they have always been very badly led, 2 they are generally ill trained conscripts interested more in going home to their family than fighting for the Palestinians (as in 1948), and 3 they have an escape route.

I believe that Arab culture, because it is so intermeshed with the despotic stagnatn despotism that was the norm in the Arab wolrd before the current interactions with the west and which continue today unabatted, actually MAKES people within that culture less brave than they would be otherwise. Combine that with the weak social fabric that binds ACROSS arab groups (the fabric is undoubtedly very strong within groups, but, like the Palestinaisn and their tribal affiliations, Arab society is weakened by these rivalries), and you surely must be able to see how an outsider might perceive this as weakness or cowardess, even though it is a manifestation of other factors.

Combine this with the fact that the Arabs ... different moral paradigm is far less civilized when dealing with outsiders in conflict than modern western nations and peoples, and this is only strengthened. Arabs, like most people around the world, have been butchering innocents in conflict since the beginning of time. That's just the way conflicts have historically worked. If a villiage can be sacked and this would benefit the army and its plundering, them it was sacked. But times have changed in the western world, and this is no longer acceptable. In the Arab world, however, they still have not dropped the "total war" anacronistic paradigm where the soft underbelly of the enemy is the preferred target.

And so when the Palestinians start their war (and it IS a war, though you would like to pretend otherwise) adopting the strategy of the purposeful targeting of innocent civilians at every opportunity, it should not surprise you that this offends westerners sense of honour and is perceived as being "cowardly".

As for your assertion the PAlestinaisn want their own country not war, I do not believe you. The Palestiniasn could have had a state years ago, but under Oslo their leadership worked towards incitement, radicalization, and arming and preparing for war rather than engaging in nation building, and most of what they wanted was offered to them in 2000 and they said no and launched this war. The people themsaelves may have wanted peace. I can't tell you that. But THEY are responsible for their leaders' actions, and they allowed their leaders to radicalize the population, gird for and then launch a war against Israeli civilians. The PLO has still not repealed the provisions in its charter calling for the destruction of Israel, and they have NEVER acted in ANY WAY inconsistent with still harbouring this desire.

Why in the hell should Israel and Israelis trust anything the Palestinaisn say on the matter given their unblemished record of broken promises and deceit? The Palestinians used Oslo to radicalize and prepare for war. The Palestinians have ACTED like utter savages during this conflict, from dancing with body parts to targeting infants for slaughter to glorying in the act of death.

Israel and Israeli's perceptions of reality seem far more in tune with it than yours and your pie in the sky view of the poor good Palestinaisn just wanting a little plot of land to retire on and grow citrus. The Palestinains have acted in a manner only consistent with them wanting Israel destroyed far more than wanting their own satte. The "right of return" (which is a fiction) is perfect additioanl proof in this regard.



You can call them coward, you clearly show how stupid you are ! Anybody who can't stand in front of an enemy will try to hurt him by other means !

yes and no. I think the argument goes deeper than this. As much as I find much of his argument unsavoury, he was talking about all Arabs, and therefore you must broaden your view beyond this conflict. Look at 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973. I believe this appearance of cowardliness was more due to planning, leadership, training and deployment strategies than anything else, but in that context the Arabs could be viewed, on aggregate, as cowardly, even though those who fought well did so with much intensity and bravery.

With respect to the Palestinaisn, it is still cowardly. They do not have to stand up to be slaughtered to be brave, but they seek ways around soldiers to strike at women and children, and by modern western percpetions of honour and bravery, this is about as cowardly as you can get. You may be arguing that western mores are not your own, and that's fine, I guess, but it seems a necessary implication of your apologetics for Palestinian targeting of innocent civilians, which, I might add, is also cowardly of you.



Do you know David and Goliath ? Do you think David was a coward ? Or do you think the Diaspora was a coward act ?

why would david be a coward? He might have been had he set out to target all of Goliath's children for slaughter. Or if he agrred to an honourable set of ground rules only in order to violate them when he was at a point of high advantage (Hubidayah? Hudna?). But he atatked the person who was to do him and his people harm.

And by the way, you may have bought into the propaganda, but Israel is still David in this conflict. You have been taught that it is just israel against the Palestinians, but those Arabs are just a proxy for the 20 odd other Arab nations that lend them just enough support to keep going but not enough to do the people any good. 6 million jews surrounded by 300 million arabs that support the Palestinaisn in their goal to destroy isarel.

Goliath was big. Maybe stupid, but that just fits into the "technological divide" between Israel and the surrounding states as well.



Arab blood lust ? You really doesn't know them ! If your telling was true, the number of terrorist attack will be much more greater !

again, this is an improper inference. If you are a science guy, surely you must know that it doesn't work this way. You are using outputs to measure inputs. You would need to look at better indicia, like the support these people have in wider society, the proportion of children who dream of growing up to be a shaheed etc. Looking at the output effect doesn't work as Israel is doing all it can (and it can do a lot) to keep events low. You might be able to get some of the lower level thinkers in your camp to buy this sort of tripe, but it ain't gonna fly around here. For god's sake, this is just 2nd year undergraduate philosophy reasoning and argumentation level stuff.



Oh yes Haiti and Nicaragua, are really good places to be since the USA help !
And if you know your history, democracy was already in place in Europe, long before the war ! Only Japan has really changed, but don't forget 2 nuclear bombs were launched against them, and after that the number of the american soldiers were send in Japan for years !

perhaps you don't know your history. Germany was only a democracy for a few years (what, like 10) between WWI and WWII, and this only happened because Germany LOST that war to the allies. Germany did have exposure to western IDEAS, however, which made it more conducive to democracy after the war. Whether it would have independently been drawn to democracy is something we will never know, but the Arab world most certainly is not being drawn in such a direction, and will not without being pushed.



And could you tell me wich other states america has helped ? Afghanistan ? Liban ? Mexico ?

can you tell me what states France has helped? Vietnam? Camaroon? Oh, and helping Nazi Germany doesn't count ;) .



Arabs aren't so blind as you, they know they have to make efforts in several domains as economy, democracy, standard of living, etc...

whatever. Everybody knows how to "make efforts". Arab efforts have been minimal. Beyond that, they have been disproportionately unsuccessful. Again, much of it has to do with the despotic culture, and much to do with limited freedoms, wiespread corruption and other problems that have plagued developing nations in the past. But the Arab world is festering along almost any economic or social indicator, and is a perfect example of a modern failing empire (or were you not awar that the Islamic Arab expansion and continued attempts are classic imperialism in its purest sense). Arab economies and socieiteis are festering and rotting, and all efforts are deisgned to balme outsiders (i.e. the Zionists, the Americans) rathe rthan address problems at home. And it does not look like this will improve any time soon.

[Canajew]

You tell me that you know history ! And now you tell me that arabs love their leaders ? Do you know saddam, khomeiny, atta turk, king of jordan, the fln, bourguiba, moubarak, and the others ?
I don't think they love their leaders (except for "Big Brother" type love). But they do love the nationalism (Saddam was and is VERY popular among Palestinains, Nasser was universally popular among Arabs) that these leaders wrap themselves in. And they love that their leaders balme everyone else, especially the Jews, for their problems and their failings.



All these men and movment have done terribles things to their peoples, and now you think arabs love them ? Nobody can love a man who hurt you, even arabs !
this is not true at all. Read 1984. And think back to Nasser, possibly the most loved Arab leader in the modern era.



Who doesn't understand force? But the day he can harm you too, don't be amazed ! Nobody is stupid enough to go against an armed guy, unless he have weapons too ! And it's not the case of Palestinians !
but they have been stupid enough to launch a war they can't win. And here's how the logic plays out. Palestinian leaders really do not give a damn about the well being of their people. In fact, where they believe increasing suffering among their own can advance their strategic, diplomatic or tactical interests, they are more than happy to cause such suffering. The population follows along because it is propagandized into them that it is "patriotic", that it is for a higher and truer cause (whether liberation of ... or because of the virgins in paradise), and that all their suffering is really the fault of the jews anyways, and when ultimate victory is achieved they can all live in a wonderful utopia.

And so you get a population launching a brutal, self-destructive and unnecessary war - for what? to get an extra 1 or 2% of territory that was not initially offered them and the chance to destroy Israel in the future.



Truly stupid answer ! After 54 years of trouble in the ME, you still think that brute force can help you ! Tell me a men can love the men who kill his brother ?
you don't get it. If I know you want me dead, and I know you will always try at the soonest opportunity and that nothing I do can change your position (which pretty much sums up Israel's position vis-a-vis the rest of the arab world) it is about DETERRENCE. You know, that thing which prevented nuclear holocaust in the cold war, even though each side was pursuing BRUTE FORCE.

This force is necessary to create stability and slowly but surely move away from the NEED to actually use it. But the Aplestinaisn will never stop in their war to destroy Israel until they realize they have lost, they cannot win, and that they should try to bukld better lives for themselves rather than trying to bring down the ISraelis. Only then can there be real peace, and only through might and force will isarel ever get the APlestinaisn to that point.



Arabs are afraid of their leaders, specially the one who are helped by foreign states ! See Moubarak, or Musharaf and the others ! Arabs people know that they can do nothing, because the state need stability, most of the time for the foreign states reasons (oil, petrol, etc)
excuses. The Arab world seems particularly good at generating them. Jot a racial thing, but cultural, I would suspect.



See the story of saddam and his people ! Usa and others states already know saddam at this time, but with the Iranian trouble, saddam was clearly a friend and cannot be overthrown ! Only in foreign nations, of course !
just like the Shah?



saddam was a dictator, there's no trouble on that, for any arabs ! Unless true terrorists !
the APlestinaisn were quite fond of him, of course.



But Arabs are against the war america made against Irak, a war with no clues, only oil has the interest for the Usa leaders, not the Irakis !
the oil argument is stupid, simplistic and foolish. As for being against the war, they were objectively pro-Saddam and would have preferred he continue his stranglehold grip on the people and the country still be shackled by sanctions than admitting they need help from an outside "infidel" to help things along.



And it's the same for you, you doesn't care at all for the Arabs, you don't speak about liberty, standard of living, or equality between man and woman, but only war, brute force and Weapons technologies !
seems counter intuitive, I'm sure, but these things are related.



Never, so after that, i can't understant why you think arabs love their leaders...
because they support them in their posturing against the west and they parrot their positions when they are actually living in the west, and they prefer to see them entrenched in power than to enlist the support of western nations to get them out.



Yes the Usa really sold weapons everywhere, but in the final, it's to the leaders to choose where the money goes ! And in the Arabs states, the level of corruption is very high !
of ocurse. And this again has somethign to do with Arab culture, though it would be high due to other factors regardless. Again, most of their problems stem from internal sources. Balme others all you like, it will only ensure their continued stagnation.



You are really mad you know ? You see the world with only two colors ! If we don't agree with you, we are an enemy ! America is really becoming a banana republic ! Only brute force is used...
these two statements are completely unrelated and make no sense. Brute force should only be used where it should be used. But it should sometimes be used. Not much for a principle, but THIS is what the US is doing.



The Iranian ragime has been brought by several nations : Usa, France and England ! But of course you see only khomeiny who was living in france...
and of course, don't forget the strain of Islam and the totalitarian bent of the regional culture that allowed them to be so well entrenched. Again, not everything is always 100% an outsider's fault.



Oh, remind me, could you tell me who has made saddam, al-queda, and helped every terrorist group in the world, if their agenda was the same for a moment ?
France? Every single Arab Islamist? The US too, of course, and that's what you were going for, I'm sure, another attempt to balme all of the ills that you perceive have fallen on your people on some outside factor, those evil americans. Foolish and simplistic.



But in your eyes, you are always seeing the Arabs like a danger for the Israelis ! At least in the future !
that's because they ARE a danger. Until their people are not brainwashed from birth with anti-semeitc propaganda and they adopt a more family oriented consumer type cultrue and focus on personal gratification rather than on bringing the infidel under their control, this threat will always exist.

You may think we should bury our heads in the sand on this one, but we don't do that sort of thing anymore. You say they are not a threat, show me why, and show me why I shouldn't worry, given the degree of Jew hatred in these lands and the p[opular myths like the Protocols of the elders of zion and the blood libel which are such popular stories in these lands. Given the average Egyptians' education and indoctrination with anti-semitism, why is there not a real risk that when Mubarak goes Egypt copuld once again pose an existential risk to Isarel? Reason through that one for me.



Arabs have started a war, and have lost, there's no problem on that ! But the real trouble is not Arabs, but Palestinians, Israel have to accept the UN resolution, a Palestinian state has to be created !
which UN resolution is that? What branch of the Un passed it? Is it binding? What gives the UN the right to detemrine what happens to that territory. Again, not saying I disagree with your position, only that your logic stinks and your foundations are non-existent.



After that war Israel has gained much more territories, so now Israel has to follow UN resolution has the other states in the world !
Israel gained territory in wars launched by enemy states for the purpose of destroying Israel and expellking or murdering its citizens. UN general assembly non binding resiolutions mean nothing, and it has been an established principle, for centuries now, that seizing land in a counter offenisve when the enemy launches a war is legitimate and just.



Don't worry, it's not you who's gonna tell me the story of Arafat ! There's no problem he was an Egyptian, he was the only man who really fought for the creation of Palestine and that's why he's the leader !
he did not fight for the creation of Palestine. he fought for the destruction of Israel. You can't perceive the difference, I'm sure, but this is pretty much the thrust of all our arguments and why you really don't undertsand Israel's position at all.

[MichaelC]

With respect to the Palestinaisn, it is still cowardly. They do not have to stand up to be slaughtered to be brave, but they seek ways around soldiers to strike at women and children, and by modern western percpetions of honour and bravery, this is about as cowardly as you can get. You may be arguing that western mores are not your own, and that's fine, I guess, but it seems a necessary implication of your apologetics for Palestinian targeting of innocent civilians, which, I might add, is also cowardly of you.
While I was thoroughly entertained by your entire "mincing of medkorpse", I particularly enjoyed this paragraph. There's not much he can say to refute your well articulated observations, though I'm certain that such a lack on his part will not prevent him from blundering in shortly to continue his shrieking and breaking of things.

[medkorp]

Arabs are cowards. Jews are brave. Arabs murder Jewish children. Jews fight Arab terrorists. Simple enough for you?

Jews and Arabs are equal, no more or no less brave. Arabs too are fighting terrorisme, ask the Pakistan, Syria, and much more other arabs states ! Ask the CIA or FBI, a lot of information are coming from arabs states services !

And could you tell me what have done the Irgoun ? Some operations done by Tsahal ? Launching a bomb from a F-16 on a place where live a great number of refugees ? See the number of young Palestinians guned down by Israel army ! So continue with your propaganda !


What arab expect after so many massacres of our civilians? That we stand by and cheer? Arabs asked for a war. We stood by doing nothing for over 17 monthes, before defensive sheild. Arabs got exactly what they asked for.
Don't make all arabs palestinians and don't make all arabs terrorists ! I don't say all jews are like you !


As for technology. If Arabs are technologicly inferior, why start a war they would lose? Or do they expect Israelis to use THEIR low tech tactics? Would the Arabs be understandable if Jews would bomb their buses and weddings and cafes? We can, you know, but we don't.

A true German song, there's no civilisation in the world who hasn't helped sciences to progress ! Arabs have also offered to the world their technics !

When you're invaded by another nation, even if you don't have the weapons or technics, you have to defend yourself ! By all the means !

At this time, it was terrorism who can do something ! As you said, the weapons and technologies wasn't with us !

But know, there's a huge difference between Israel and Palestine !

Israel say that she is a democracy, then if it's true, Israel don't have to crush people with no weapons ! There is a general agreement no matter what you say: Palestinian will have a state !

[quoet]Also, In several Israeli-Arab wars, the Arabs had the technological advantage, having most advanced Soviet weaponary free of charge in un limited ammounts. Yet we Israelis won the war, with WWII weapons. Reason: Arabs are cowards. We are not cowards. We fight our opressors. [/quote]

Wrong, the only weapons the soviet could offer were basic weapons, not airplane or nuclear help as Israel has gained with others nations ! So you could keep thinking : Israelis or Jews are the best, but it's only a story for kids !

If it was really the case, how could you explain the WWII genocide ? Why Jews doesn't have fight ? Do they were cowards ?


Looks like they got a war, and LESS territories. Great way to go, to start a war against Jews. Which also prove you how stupid arabs are.
Make me laugh ! Arabs lands, were stolen by the UN and you ask why they start a war ? What do you expect ?


Like murdering their children? I call this cowardise. Arab's had a choise not to start the war. Now they weep over the consequances of their own actions. Serve them well.

Me too ! So ask Tsahal don't kill boys who send stones to the soldiers !


Love this story. The proper analogy is that Israel is David, not Goliat. First, because Israel won each and every conflict, just like OUR king David.

Don't worry everybody think he's David ! Israel is Goliath and Palestine is David, if you still think the contrary then it's because you have forgot who is using F-16 !


Next, the Arab world is over 500 the size of Isael, and 60 times the population of Jews in Israel. With all the oil dollars and political dominaion of international diplomacy. Yet, Arabs can do NOTHING of meaning against us. Israel is stronger then the whole Arab world put togather and their European allies. All odds are against Israel, yet Israel won all the time.
Laugh, laugh...

Clearly i understand you now ! Arabs nations and Palestinians aren't the same thing ! Arabs have different agendas as Palestinians or Tunisians ! So it doesn't make sens to compare Palestinian (David) and Israel (Goliath) when you add arabs nations !


Diaspora created when Jews of Judea where massacred by the Romans and the rest chained and sent overseas.
Do you think, this can be cowards ?


But I am a Zionist. I am for ending the diaspora whatever the obstacles secrifices or costs. We Jews are returing for the very same towns built by our forefathers, most importantly our beloved city Jerusalem, city of Zion.

As i told you before, i don't believe in god, so a guy who tell me : hey it's my land, God tell me that...

You can't come back hundreds of years later and said: hey it's all mine ! During the Jewish diaspora, arabs were here !


Arabs are cowards and we kill or arrest Arab terrorists. This is the reason there is little terrorism these days. Arab blood lust for jewish children remains intact, Arab got only bigger difficulties to satesfy their blood lust.

Again you make me laugh, even if there some terrorists or antisemitic ones exist, no one has done what have done Europe !

So you can claim Arabs are the most antisemite, but don't forget your old friends !


but better then they used to be. Of course the USA may help more.

Go back to history. Read some history books before you spout none sense.

It was you who make me laugh, you're telling me : God has givin me this land !

So stop joking first ! And began true history !


Good point! I suggest to do the same to Iran and each and every Arab dictatorial ragime. Maybe that will improve the situation in the ME. Don't you think?

The other regimes doesn't have suffered as Irak, no war, no embargo, so you will have to wait 10 or 15 years before you can invade them...


Japan was not the only country to change. As I said before, you should read more history instead of inventing brand new one. I know my history, you can't fool me with your none sense.

Oh, you have talked about other nations ? Oh yes Haiti ! And Nicaragua, good examples, so why you don't continue with such examples ?

Why only the Japan example is here ? Where is Vietnam or other nations USA has helped in the past ?


Hopefuly, Iraq. Grenada, Cuba (1901), Philipenes, Panama... Want me to go on?
Are you joking ? Do you think USA help in Philipenes or Panama was helping ? Do you think Allende killing was a gift from USA ?

So you can go on, with such examples, we see how USA can help the world !


Yes of course! Or else, the poeple would remove them in a popular revolution. The same as happened in so many other places. But Arabs are cowards.

Coward, you have always this word on your mouth ? Could you tell me a place where a revolution wasn't made ? Don't speak about Arabs regimes, because they have all gained their liberty through battles, to kick off the Europe colonialism !


I know the Arabs just adore their leaders. Worship them even. The more an Arab leader hurt his people, the more he is loved. Dare tell me it is not true
Wrong, you don't know anything about Arabs ! It's not true ! Most of your leaders can't be overthrowed because they support Usa or another big power ! And these powers don't want a revolution in theses states !

Could you tell me who is backing the Saudis ? Moubarack ? Musharaf ? Or has helped Bin Laden or saddam ?


We are that stupid. We fought Arabs with little weapons in 48 and won. We fought 7 fully Armed Arab armies, and won. Jews fought the Nazis with no weapons. It's matter of honor, which Arabs never had any.

Jews have fought nazie ? The majority of the world has fought for you, so don't come here and say : i'm not a coward and Arabs are so!

My uncle has fought against German during WWII, he too was an arab, he has taken a bullet during this War, so ask him if his a coward !

Do you know this war was a total war ? Do you knwo what mean World War ? So don't forget many nations, many people has fought for liberty and honour ! And a lot of them has fought to stop the nazies !

So don't come here and tell me, jews have fought and the others not !

Medkorp

[medkorp]

We tried any other option and failed. Brute force is the only thing that Arabs appriciate. Arabs started so many wars and conducted so much terrorism.
Laugh...

Could you tell me how many time America has started a war to offer liberty ? Think to the Irakis, Viet-nam, Nicaragua, Mexico and all the others !

Could you remember me who as trained saddam and oussama bin laden ?


Do Arabs think this is the right way forward? Don't they know they can hurt as but never defeat us? Arabs only think that brute force can help them, but so many decades of warfare proved the opposite. Yet, they never learn.
Arabs know Israel can't be defeated ! Israel weapons and friendship with USA are two sure factors !

But as some Jews has fought during the WWII without weapons as you say, it's the same for Palestinians !


Arabs murdered many of my brotherens. This is the reason I don't like Arabs very much. Nazis also murdered millions of my brotherens. There for I don't like Germans very much either.

Could you tell me the number of Jews being murdered by Palestinian since 1948 ?


Arab love their leaders who massacre them, and send them to lost wars against Jews. See Nasser.

Arabs don't like their leaders, but they have no word to say ! Do you remember who make leaders in ME ?

For Nasser, you're right, he was one of the first true Arab leader, because he have a plan for arabs nations ! the Pan-arabisme (i don't knwo how it is in american ), a land where arabs nations are friends and has a same goal !

An Arab federation if you prefer !


True! The Arabs should care for themselves like anybody else. Start with bring down their despot leaders for a start.

Try do this in Arabia Saudia, Egypt or Tunisia, each of these states are protected by others nations each of them for their agendas !

Do you think USA wil allow an uprising in Arabia Saudia ?

But you're right, arabs have to make their revolution, against theirs leaders !


Had there been a pro-democratic ragime revolution, the USA would have help that. The rest is Arab excuses for doing nothing. Save a little of their honor by blaming others.
To have a pro démocratic regime we have to be able to choose our leaders ! Do you remember untill 1960 most of Arabs territories were under another nations will !

Arabs have already overthrown the ancient leaders, so let's give us time !

Do you remember German was a democracy before turning into a dictature ! So don't think it's over. Even for america, the risk is always here !

When came a dictature in a democracy ?


14 years there were sanctions against Sadam. Who helped him then? Only the Europeans, the French and Germans who ignored UN sanctions, not the USA.

Liar ! Everybody knows USA has sold weapons to saddam but for you there's nothing ! Even american newspaper are sure about it !


14 years Arabs could have overthrown Saddam Hussain. Saddam's army could have turn against him. Yet, it never happened.
Laugh !

Do you remeber the first war in the gulf ? When the Kurd make an uprising after the USA attacks ? Do you remember why Bush made nothing when saddam launched his army to crush down the Kurds ?

So begin by knowing what has happened before !


Are you happey with that Saddam is gone or don't you? Are you happey with Saddams seacret police not mass murdering people or don't you?
Why i must be happy ? Is there peace ? Liberty ? Or at least something to eat ? No just oil, leaving Irak to make money for another nation...

So please could you tell what the difference ? Oh, yes now we can have an Islamic state...


You are a hypocrite and ungreatful. That what you are.
You too !


First you weep about USA strengtheining Aab despotic ragimes, and then you weep when USA bring them down.
Of course, why Usa can choose who is good for the moment and bad after ? How could you say such stupidities !

Who has asked to america to reinforce others nations ? Nobody, but because there's oil in the ME, each great nations try to make their deals !


AS for oil, the USA troubled for keeping global stratigic reasource out of the hands of despots and terrorists. The USA acted against it's short term oil intrests.

So i was right, even for you, america has to take the ME Oil, for the benefice of the rest of the world !


Why should I care about ARab standard of living? You wan't me to care? You want me to occupay Arabs and tell them what to do or not to do?
Do you know Israel borders aren't created yet ? Do you know why ? Because Israelis don't care about anyone ! Even the ones, who where here before them...Still no borders are created, impossible to create the borders of the Palestine...

So, it's clear you don't have any compassion for the others...


Arabs are free to make their own choises and solve their own problems. This is what liberty is all about. You don't see Israelis asking the Arabs to solve our domastic economic crises, we solve them by our own.

No, you're asking money to the USA, without that, Israel will be lost by her policy !

See Standard and Poors for Israel !


No revolution==Arab love their leaders;
Could you tell me a nation who has made more than 1 revolution per century ? If you have already forgot this: arabs have overthrow Europe during this century (1960 for the most cases), so be sure they will do it again !

Medkorp

[Gilgamesh]

Jews and Arabs are equal, no more or no less brave. Arabs too are fighting terrorisme, ask the Pakistan, Syria, and much more other arabs states ! Ask the CIA or FBI, a lot of information are coming from arabs states services ! ROFL!!! You always making me laugh so hard I weep... :D

Arabs states finance terrorism. Syria supports several terror organizations, like Hizzballa, PKK, Islamist Jihad, PFLP, PFDP and many others. Syria is in USA list of terror supporting countries, Syria is already under some UN sanctions and more sanctions will follow.


And could you tell me what have done the Irgoun ? Blew up Arab terrorists and British soldiers. True freedom fighters. Heros!

No single british civilians was murdered in a pub, in London during our war of liberation against British colonial imperialism.


Some operations done by Tsahal ? Launching a bomb from a F-16 on a place where live a great number of refugees ? The dead Arab human shields. Their lives is their responsibility. It is a violation of the 4th Geneva convention to hide combatants behind civilians. Find the geneva convention, look for article 28 and you'll see we are right. In an attempt to kill terrorists we have a right to bomb where ever they are.


See the number of young Palestinians guned down by Israel army ! So continue with your propaganda ! You mean these Arabs (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/?imgIndex=77&autoShow=6)got guned down? And it's our responsibility not to shoot them? Or is it their mother responsibility not to arm them on the first place?

There is no excuse for Arab child abuse. Our army have a right to shoot terrorists what ever their age or gender is.


Don't make all arabs palestinians and don't make all arabs terrorists ! I don't say all jews are like you ! If more Jews were like me the world could have been a better place.

All Arabs support terrorists. You too. The difference between Arab supporting terrism and an Arab terrorists is a weapon. As soon as an Arab gets a weapon, he becomes a terrorists. All symantics.


A true German song, there's no civilisation in the world who hasn't helped sciences to progress ! I'm no German, I don't know such a song. Either way, the Germans, offered the world very little scientific achivement. Most of these achivement were made by Jews living in Germany.


Arabs have also offered to the world their technics ! More then half of these scholars were Jews.


When you're invaded by another nation, even if you don't have the weapons or technics, you have to defend yourself ! By all the means !We Israelis feel under attack, invaded. Do we have a right to use all means possible as well? Or only Arabs have such a right?


At this time, it was terrorism who can do something ! As you said, the weapons and technologies wasn't with us ! Well, I feel my land is occupayed by Arab invaders. Do I have a right to bomb Arabs with whatever means I have? To use terrorism? To level mousques?

I was in the IDF and I studied chemistry. I have the basic knowladge to prepare car bombs, and I know many thousands of Israelis who know even more then me. Had we Jews started to use terrorism, there was no Arab left in all of our lands.


Israel say that she is a democracy, then if it's true, Israel don't have to crush people with no weapons ! Do you suggest we crush people with no weapons? Or you think that a democracy means the goverment should cave in and scerifay the rights of other civilians to any demands made by terrorists?


There is a general agreement no matter what you say: Palestinian will have a state ! Fine with me. But why on Israel expance? What's wrong with Jorden?


Wrong, the only weapons the soviet could offer were basic weapons, not airplane All the Arab planes our air force shot down, were soviet made. And in most Arab countries, such as Syria, all the remaining planes are Soviet made still.


or nuclear help as Israel has gained with others nations ! The nuclear age is a Jewish invention. We had the technology because we owned the technology. All the scientists and engineers developing the bomb, both in the USA and the USSR were Jewish.


So you could keep thinking : Israelis or Jews are the best, but it's only a story for kids ! If Israel is not the best, who is better then us? Not bigger, better!


If it was really the case, how could you explain the WWII genocide ? Why Jews doesn't have fight ? Do they were cowards ? We fought heavily within all the armies of the alliance and USSR fighting the Nazis. Jews were also partizans fighting the Nazis from within the occupayed countries. Many Jews earned many medals for valor in combating the Nazis. Even British occupayed Israel, sent a brigade, called the "Jewish Brigade" to help the British fighting the Nazis in Italy.

Arabs, on the other hand, collaborated with the Nazis.


Make me laugh ! Arabs lands, were stolen by the UN and you ask why they start a war ? What do you expect ? Jewish lands belong to Jews. The land of Israel belongs to Jews not Arabs.


Me too ! So ask Tsahal don't kill boys who send stones to the soldiers ! Arab throwing stones to get killed by IDF. Boy throwing grandes do get shot, by every right we have.


Don't worry everybody think he's David ! Israel is Goliath and Palestine is David, if you still think the contrary then it's because you have forgot who is using F-16 ! Do you prefer we'll use car bombs instead of F-16? Personaly, I'd like that!


Clearly i understand you now ! Arabs nations and Palestinians aren't the same thing ! Yes they are. There is no such thing as "Palestinians", all the Arabs in Israel came from Syria, Iraq and Egypt in the late 19th century and early 20th.

As i told you before, i don't believe in god, so a guy who tell me : hey it's my land, God tell me that... It's not only G-d, but also History. Arabs are living in towns and cities which still bare JEWISH names!!! There are relics and evidances of Jews living in Israel since before the Arabs. Many non Jews (like the Romans and Greeks and Egyptions and Assurians and Babylonians) all have written about us Jews while we were living in our anciant land.


You can't come back hundreds of years later and said: hey it's all mine ! During the Jewish diaspora, arabs were here ! Now it's goot time for the Arabs to vanish. It's our land, we survived, we want what is ours by right!


Again you make me laugh, even if there some terrorists or antisemitic ones exist, no one has done what have done Europe ! Because this time, we have our IDF to defend us. Our F-16 and nuclear devices. Arabs can't kill so many Jews at once, but they wish it very hard.


So you can claim Arabs are the most antisemite, but don't forget your old friends ! What friends? What are you talking about? We have no anti semetic friends!


Why only the Japan example is here ? Where is Vietnam or other nations USA has helped in the past ? Read history, if you wish to know the full history of the USA. It's not my role to give you free of charge history tutation. Start with reading back my posts, and other posts of mine.


So you can go on, with such examples, we see how USA can help the world ! No.. Islam helps the world far better... The USA with all of it's power can not bring heaven on earth, yet that USA done the world far more then any other country.


Coward, you have always this word on your mouth ? For Arabs, always.


Could you tell me a place where a revolution wasn't made ? Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jorden and the Gulf states. All given thier liberty without a shot was fired, following WWII.


Don't speak about Arabs regimes, because they have all gained their liberty through battles, to kick off the Europe colonialism ! Only Algier and Tunisia fought against European colonialism, mostly by murdering other Arabs.


Most of your leaders can't be overthrowed because they support Usa or another big power ! And these powers don't want a revolution in theses states ! Excuses, excuses.


Could you tell me who is backing the Saudis ? Moubarack ? Musharaf ? Or has helped Bin Laden or saddam ? The USA as I know it, would much rather to backup democratic Arab ragimes, but such ragimes do not exist. If it wasn't Saddam, it was some other tyrant. The USA needs what ever ragime that can make oil flaw. The rest is Arab problem.

If there will be a revolution againt an Arab ragime, it is always of Islamists, not democrates.


Jews have fought nazie ? The majority of the world has fought for you, so don't come here and say : i'm not a coward and Arabs are so! The world hadn't fought the nazis for us, but for their own sake. Most Jews at the time, were fighting the Nazis in the many armies of the alliance and the Soviet Russia. We fought the Germans with great valor, but not as an independent army beacuse the state of Israel hadn't existed. There was only one Zionist brigade the British had allowed to create, to fight the Nazis. Other Jews vollenteered fighting under different flags.


My uncle has fought against German during WWII, he too was an arab, he has taken a bullet during this War, so ask him if his a coward ! Arabs fought at the time WITH the Nazis, against the British. If your uncle got a bullet, it was either at his wedding or by the Brits.

[Gilgamesh]

Could you remember me who as trained saddam and oussama bin laden ? This is irrelevent. If it wasn't Saddam, it was some other Islamist or despotic Arab leader of Iraq. Despots and Islamists is all the Arab leadership ever produced, and so far the Americans had to work with what ever ragime the Arabs choose.

I am sure the Americans would much rather working and backing an Arab democracy but there are NO democratic forces in Arab states.


Arabs know Israel can't be defeated ! Israel weapons and friendship with USA are two sure factors ! The Arabs had far better connections, backing, money, technology, aid what have you, coming to them from the USSR and ARAB LOST!!! Not once, not twice, ALWAYS!!!

So, your excuses don't work. Arabs are coward. They had EVERYTHING. Soviet technology while Israel is under sanctions, poorly equiped, they had aid when Israel had none, Arabs had millions of soldiers, Arab have oil money limitless. Arab made SEVERAL wars with Israel underthese condtions and LOST!!!

Please, just explian me that fact. How come Arabs had everything, we Jews had NOTHING by our faith and we won and Arabs lost several times over.


But as some Jews has fought during the WWII without weapons as you say, it's the same for Palestinians ! Why? Did Jews blew German pubs and cafes before WWII? Did Jews committed suicide attacks against German civilians before the war? Did Jews done anything other then great contributions to German science and culture before the war? Jews are loyal, hard working highly educated people in Germany up till the Nazis came to power. Can you say the same about the Arabs?


Could you tell me the number of Jews being murdered by Palestinian since 1948 ? It's in the thousands, many perior to 1967. PLO sent death squads to muder Israelis, shell Israeli civilian towns with Katyusha rockets and artillary, murder of Jews in their homes, children in their beds.

March 17, 1954. Ma'ale Akrabim massacre - Arabs board a civilian bus, and muder 11 Jewish civilians, among them women Children and elderly. This is one example of many.

Ma'alot massacre, PLO mass murderers, inflintrated the Israeli-Lebanon border, went into a school and murdered Jewish children, just like that.

There are scores of such storied many, many of those.


Do you remember who make leaders in ME ? Arabs. When ever any other nation don't like it's equally despotic leader, they remove him in a popular revolt. Arabs never revolt against thier leaders.


For Nasser, you're right, he was one of the first true Arab leader, Nassar also called for wiping off Israel and genocide Israeli Jews. He always promissed to continue where Hitler was stopped. Nasser is responsible for SEVERAL of the Arabs worst defeats from Israel, although Arabs were superior in each and every aspect: Money, menpower, technology, chemical WMD, tanks, artillary. We were out numbered and out guned in every aspect. Alone and sanctioned against.

No Arab leader is responsible for more dead Arabs, and greater humiliation then Nassar. You only prove my point!


Try do this in Arabia Saudia, Egypt or Tunisia, each of these states are protected by others nations each of them for their agendas ! nonesense. There is simply no ONE Arab who wants a democracy. Some Arabs support the despot, the rest support the Islamist. None whants democracy.


Do you think USA wil allow an uprising in Arabia Saudia ? YES!! If and only if, the new ragime will be democratic.


But you're right, arabs have to make their revolution, against theirs leaders ! But they don't!


To have a pro démocratic regime we have to be able to choose our leaders ! nonesense. Democracy is when you choose you leader. You have to remove the despot first, and then make elections and then you have a new elected leader. If there are more elections, later, where other leaders may get elected, you have a democracy, not before.


Do you remember untill 1960 most of Arabs territories were under another nations will ! No, just Algire. Egypt, Lybia Marocco and Sudan were already free, since the end of WWII. (1945).


Arabs have already overthrown the ancient leaders, so let's give us time ! We don't have time. There is no opposition to talk about in Arab countries, other then the Islamist.


Do you remember German was a democracy before turning into a dictature ! So don't think it's over. Even for america, the risk is always here ! Of course. But the risk in Israel or America, is always lower in Europe or Arab countries. Because of Jewish culture, and the beliefe in G-d all mighty as the absolute king and governor of all things, we Jews may have only some form of democracy to govern us. This is the idea of liberty.


Liar ! Everybody knows USA has sold weapons to saddam but for you there's nothing ! Even american newspaper are sure about it ! The USA has sold weapons to Saddam Hussain before 1990. Since the invasion of Kuwait, saddam was under sanctiones. 14 Arabs could revolt. the excuse as if the USA is supporting Saddam Hussain is not working any more, because the USA was working against Saddam, putting him under sanctions.

The only revolt was a pro-Iranian Islamist revolt. The USA had no reason to ancourage or aid such a revolt. The Kurds, however, had American protection overhead, but they had no wishes to occupay other parts of Iraq.


Do you remeber the first war in the gulf ? When the Kurd make an uprising after the USA attacks ? It wasn't the Kurds but pro-Iranian Shiat Arabs. the USA has no reason for them to succseed.


Why i must be happy ? Is there peace ? Liberty ? Or at least something to eat ? No just oil, leaving Irak to make money for another nation... This is your problem. For food one have to study and work. Education and hard labour. Two things Arabs are very bad in.

The USA hadn't cause the poverty. Arabs did. USA isn't responsible to the education of Arab children. Arab are responsible. USA isn't responsible for the on going war since Saddam was removed. Arabs are responsible for it. USA hadn't created Arab terrorism. Ared are the terrorists, they are responsible to stop the fighting and allow the country to develop.

If Arabs have nothing but oil, no water, just oil, I suggest you drink oil .


Who has asked to america to reinforce others nations ? Nobody, but because there's oil in the ME, each great nations try to make their deals ! The USA will work with what ever ragime Arab choose to have. Arabs allowed Saddam Hussain to stay, not the Americans.


So i was right, even for you, america has to take the ME Oil, for the benefice of the rest of the world ! Of course, no oil no energy. no energy no industry, no cars no economy.

The only question is, what kind of ragime should control that oil. Islamist? Despotic? The USA would rather a democratic. But it is not possible because no Arab want's democracy. There is no democratic opposition, movement or anything.


Do you know Israel borders aren't created yet ? Do you know why ? Because Israelis don't care about anyone ! TRUE!!! And why should we care about any one? We have our truth, we have our justice and we make justice for ourselves. Why should anybody else judge us? With what authority?


Even the ones, who where here before them...Still no borders are created, impossible to create the borders of the Palestine... Right! So build that stupid country some place else, not on Israel's expance.


So, it's clear you don't have any compassion for the others... We Jews are as compassionate to Arabs as the Arabs are compassionate to us. Meaning: Not at all. Arabs demonstrated to have NO compassion to us at all, why should we treat them with mercy and compassion? We are not Christian. We are Jews.


No, you're asking money to the USA, without that, Israel will be lost by her policy ! We get 3bn dollars to purchas inferior American arms. That's all we can do with the money. Egypt get aid too.

The money Israel asking from the USA are loans. Money we give back. All nations of the world take and return loans from one another.


Could you tell me a nation who has made more than 1 revolution per century ? The Russians had two revolutions in less then a year. Romania had several revolutions, so was South Korea, Argentina, Greece...


If you have already forgot this: arabs have overthrow Europe during this century (1960 for the most cases), so be sure they will do it again ! Israel threw the Brits out. And we will do the same to the Arabs unless they will behave.

[medkorp]

ROFL!!! You always making me laugh so hard I weep... :D It's normal, the last thing can do a men when he doesn't understand, is to laugh...


Arabs states finance terrorism. Syria supports several terror organizations, like Hizzballa, PKK, Islamist Jihad, PFLP, PFDP and many others. Syria is in USA list of terror supporting countries, Syria is already under some UN sanctions and more sanctions will follow.

Could you tell me who has financed bin laden ? And when america will have sanctions ?

Oh, do you really think Syria support PKK ? Syria supporting Kurds ? And after that you think you know the Arabs ? Kurds and Syrians will never be together ! Syria hasn't allowed Kurd tongues in her territories !


Blew up Arab terrorists and British soldiers. True freedom fighters. Heros!
Lol, freedom heros ? Only terrorists with their agenda ! Do you remember Deir Yassin ? Do you remember what have done the Irgoun ?

Your heros are as others terrorists, with blood on hands !


No single british civilians was murdered in a pub, in London during our war of liberation against British colonial imperialism.

Do you remember the King David Hotel ?


On the morning of the 22nd of July 1946 a party of between 15 and 20 Jews, dressed as an Arabs entered the King David Hotel. The hotel housed the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and Headquarters of the British Forces in Palestine and Transjordan. The terrorists were able to enter the building without arousing too much attention because part of the building was still being used as a hotel and other people frequented it. The Jews pretended to be an Arab working party. Having unloading from their lorry several milk churns filled with 225 kilogram's of explosive, they placed them in the basement of the wing of the hotel occupied by the Secretariat.
A British officer standing nearby, one Major Mackintosh, became suspicious of this group of Arabs and began to ask questions, but was suddenly gunned down by a member of the Jewish gang and subsequently died. A policeman stationed at the tradesman's entrance suffered a similar fate when he challenged the Jewish terrorists. Both victims were unarmed. A gun battle soon began between the terrorist and guards during which time the Jews ignited the fuse and bolted from the building as the alarm was given. As they ran several were shot and wounded by guards, but most managed to make good their escape. There was no time to evacuate the building and the charge exploded with devastating effect. Many were killed instantly as the whole wing of the building collapsed about them, others were trapped and many more injured.


Rescue work started straight way as soldiers and police began to pull away the rubble in the hope of finding survivors. Members of the Royal Engineers were hurried to the scene with heavy lifting equipment, but they had difficulty reaching the King David Hotel because of Jewish road blocks. The Royal Engineers were stoned and booed as they tried to make their way to the scene of the bombing.

By 1600 hours the sappers were hard at work in the rubble. The task was a race against time, and not until all hope of saving further lives had been abandoned days later, did they relax their efforts. Day and night the rescue operations went on with sappers working like men possessed, for deep in the wreckage could occasionally be heard sounds which urged them on with fresh hope.

At 22:00 hours of that night the sappers were formed into three shifts, and for the next 3 days each shift worked 16 hours on and eight hours off. Even so, some men refused to rest until completely exhausted. It is recorded that one sapper drove his bulldozer for 30 hours with out leaving the wheel until he eventually collapsed exhausted. From the wreckage and rubble the rescuers managed to extract six survivors, The last to be found was D. C. Thompson, 24 hours after the building had collapsed. He appeared to be more or less unhurt. But died the next day due to shock.

Owing to the danger of falling masonry and further subsidence the use of mechanical equipment had to be very limited, until it was considered that no one remained alive beneath the debris. Soon all hope of finding anyone alive faded and the operation to recover the bodies began. 91 bodies were recovered in the following week and 2000 lorry loads of rubble had been removed. The stench which accompanied the work which was carried out in the sweltering heat of midsummer was most unpleasant.

Not all the 91 one people killed were members of the British Security Forces. There were 15 Jews among the dead, including women who had been working as secretaries in the building. The Irgun claimed that the British had been warned about the attack by telephone, but the warning was ignored.


The dead Arab human shields. Their lives is their responsibility. It is a violation of the 4th Geneva convention to hide combatants behind civilians. Find the geneva convention, look for article 28 and you'll see we are right. In an attempt to kill terrorists we have a right to bomb where ever they are.
Israelis as usual don't have any respect for the Palestinian : They lock them in territories, they send bomb there, and after they say: Hey it's terrorists fault, they use them a Human shields !

Even a porc as more moral than you !


You mean these Arabs (http://www.paix-en-palestine.org/imadoc/boytank.jpg)got guned down? And it's our responsibility not to shoot them? Or is it their mother responsibility not to arm them on the first place?
Yes it's your responsibility ! It's Israel who have the weapons, it's Israel who claim to be a democracy !


There is no excuse for Arab child abuse. Our army have a right to shoot terrorists what ever their age or gender is.
If Israel is a Banana republic, yes you have the right to gun down anybody ! But Israel claims to be the only one democracy in the Middle East !

But we know, Israel don't care about youngs arabs boys !
Israel army is one of the worst army in the world, her behavior is well know, there's a lot of video where you see Tsahal firing on anything, even journalists !


All Arabs support terrorists. You too. The difference between Arab supporting terrism and an Arab terrorists is a weapon. As soon as an Arab gets a weapon, he becomes a terrorists. All symantics.

You know nothing, you're on this forum, because you can talk with your friends who share the same view as you ! But remember the world is more bigger than israelforum.com !

Keep thinking you are the best, or the jews are the best, you have no brain, no moral, and knowledge of the Middle East, so keep crying !


I'm no German, I don't know such a song. Either way, the Germans, offered the world very little scientific achivement. Most of these achivement were made by Jews living in Germany.

German nation has offered to the world a lot of scientific achivement, but of course, with your sick brain, you think they never have done a think without the jew help...You're truly pathetic you know ?


We Israelis feel under attack, invaded. Do we have a right to use all means possible as well? Or only Arabs have such a right?

Israel invaded by Palestinians ? Return to your History books, and see who has invaded this land since 1948 !


Well, I feel my land is occupayed by Arab invaders. Do I have a right to bomb Arabs with whatever means I have? To use terrorism? To level mousques?
You are talking like a nazi ! Jews have invaded Germany, we Germans have the right to kill them...Or to tear down their cynagogues !


I was in the IDF and I studied chemistry. I have the basic knowladge to prepare car bombs, and I know many thousands of Israelis who know even more then me. Had we Jews started to use terrorism, there was no Arab left in all of our lands.
This is not terrorism you know ? This is a mass killing like the nazie have done ! So don't ask us to thanks you because you don't have done the same thing as the nazie !

Medkorp

[medkorp]

Do you suggest we crush people with no weapons? Or you think that a democracy means the goverment should cave in and scerifay the rights of other civilians to any demands made by terrorists?
Try again, the answer is in democracy, i understand it's new to you !


All the Arab planes our air force shot down, were soviet made. And in most Arab countries, such as Syria, all the remaining planes are Soviet made still.
True !


The nuclear age is a Jewish invention. We had the technology because we owned the technology. All the scientists and engineers developing the bomb, both in the USA and the USSR were Jewish.
Lol, of course nobody could make a nuclear bomb without any jews in his team, sure !

You really have the Illusion of grandeur !


If Israel is not the best, who is better then us? Not bigger, better!
Easy, see standard and poor's website : http://www2.standardandpoors.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=sp/Page/HomePg


We fought heavily within all the armies of the alliance and USSR fighting the Nazis. Jews were also partizans fighting the Nazis from within the occupayed countries. Many Jews earned many medals for valor in combating the Nazis. Even British occupayed Israel, sent a brigade, called the "Jewish Brigade" to help the British fighting the Nazis in Italy.

How many they were ? When you will have this number, compare it to the number of Arabs fighters !


Arabs, on the other hand, collaborated with the Nazis.
And you have forgotten what have done Europe since 1200 ? You have forgot Italy ? Japan ? And all other Axe members !

So, as the others nations, some arabs were nazies ! But don't make us, the worst or the greatest follower of the nazie, because it's àle !


Jewish lands belong to Jews. The land of Israel belongs to Jews not Arabs.

True Israel belong to the Israelis ! But Israel do not include Palestine !


Arab throwing stones to get killed by IDF. Boy throwing grandes do get shot, by every right we have.

Any nations has the right to protect her people, but Israel kill everyday a great number of young peoples, most of the time unarmed boys !


Do you prefer we'll use car bombs instead of F-16? Personaly, I'd like that!
Israel always use brute force, no diplomacy or other means, only brute force !


Yes they are. There is no such thing as "Palestinians", all the Arabs in Israel came from Syria, Iraq and Egypt in the late 19th century and early 20th.
Don't start with your propaganda, all the arabs states were created by France an England, so if you have a trouble with the Arabs states today it's because of Europe !

And remember, Israel don't belong to the Jews by your God, but by the UN !


It's not only G-d, but also History. Arabs are living in towns and cities which still bare JEWISH names!!!

And so ? Do america wish to return back the lands to the Indians ? And when the jews have made their diasporah, all arabs have to wait for them ?

So there's no history or god to give you this land, and after the Jewish diasporah, jews have nothing to say about this land !

If this land was truly a God gift, he wouldn't allowed the Jews leaving !


There are relics and evidances of Jews living in Israel since before the Arabs.
Said that to the Indians, Aztek or the differents nations who were here before...


Many non Jews (like the Romans and Greeks and Egyptions and Assurians and Babylonians) all have written about us Jews while we were living in our anciant land.
The number of the Jews at this time was really small, all your neighboors were arabs !


Now it's goot time for the Arabs to vanish. It's our land, we survived, we want what is ours by right!
Dream ! You have no right to claim a land , 2000 years later !


Because this time, we have our IDF to defend us. Our F-16 and nuclear devices. Arabs can't kill so many Jews at once, but they wish it very hard.
The same to you, jews couldnt kill more Arabs, but they can't...


Read history, if you wish to know the full history of the USA. It's not my role to give you free of charge history tutation. Start with reading back my posts, and other posts of mine.
Easy way to hide you lack of history...


Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jorden and the Gulf states. All given thier liberty without a shot was fired, following WWII.
You really know nothing ? These states have already fought during the Fist World War ! Their territories has the price of their support to Europe !

But of course, when WWI come to end, Europe never accepted to give back these lands !

All these nations have made their own revolution to gain their rights !

Egypt: Egypt was ruled by England untill 1936, but England still have an army there untill 1960 !

Iraq : This land was created afer the WWI, so you see how pathetic is you history ? Iraq was created by England after WWI and untill 1932 ! Of course the true liberation happened in 1952 when Irakis take the power !

This is the same for the Gulf state, you're right only for Jordan !


Only Algier and Tunisia fought against European colonialism, mostly by murdering other Arabs.
Go back learning school ! To gain their liberty, arabs must have fight the true power, so don't worry arabs have fought against the french army for a long time !

Of course, a number of arabs were killed, but as other nations or race, nobody's perfect !


The USA as I know it, would much rather to backup democratic Arab ragimes, but such ragimes do not exist. If it wasn't Saddam, it was some other tyrant. The USA needs what ever ragime that can make oil flaw. The rest is Arab problem.
Lol, as i said before Usa are in Iraq, not to bring peace or democracy but to keep oil price low !


If there will be a revolution againt an Arab ragime, it is always of Islamists, not democrates. Of course, and could you tell me wich king of revolution have done Algeria ? Tunisia ? Marroco ? Egypt ? Irak ? None of them has choosen Islamic regime !


The world hadn't fought the nazis for us, but for their own sake. Most Jews at the time, were fighting the Nazis in the many armies of the alliance and the Soviet Russia. We fought the Germans with great valor, but not as an independent army beacuse the state of Israel hadn't existed. There was only one Zionist brigade the British had allowed to create, to fight the Nazis. Other Jews vollenteered fighting under different flags.

Do you remember now, Algeria, Tunisa, Egypt, Iraq and most of the arabs states too were like this ! Colonys of Europe, so the number of arabs or black troops was of course a great number !


Arabs fought at the time WITH the Nazis, against the British. If your uncle got a bullet, it was either at his wedding or by the Brits.
My uncle was in the French army because he was Arabs, and in this time Arabs were under Europe rules ! So nobody asked my uncle if he want to free Europe and Jews, he has taken a bullet on the way to liberate a french town : Grenoble !

So you can keep your insults for you !

Medkorp

[Binyamin]

Your post about the King David bombing belongs in the "Orwell and Arabs" thread.
Deir Yassin also. (There's a complete thread about it somewhere.)

[medkorp]

Lol,

I could say the same : Orwell and Jews...

Medkorp


Your post about the King David bombing belongs in the "Orwell and Arabs" thread.
Deir Yassin also. (There's a complete thread about it somewhere.)

[minusthejihad]

Medkorp should switch out the . and ! buttons on his keyboard.

[shimshon@shimsh]

Morally Bankrupt Gentlemen:



The ICJ decision and UN support for it is rank hypocrisy. It is in keeping with the UN Conspiracy of Silence about Arab terrorism against Israel comparable to the Conspiracy of Western nations about the Holocaust while it was happening 60 years ago.



The UN was silent (no sanctions) when Arafat*s Force 17 murdered 11 Israeli men during the 1972 Olympics.



The UN was silent when Arafat ordered PLO kidnappers of two American diplomats (Cleo Noel and G. Curtis Moore) in Khartoum in 1974 to kill them.



The U.N. was silent in October 2000 when Palestinian civilians in Ramallah lynched two Israeli soldiers who lost their way on the road and dismembered the bodies. I was in Jerusalem a few weeks later when the father of one of the lynched soldiers and the brother of the other told what happened.



The UN was silent when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up and killed 29 Israelis and wounded over 100 on Passover eve a few years ago in a Netanya hotel.



The UN was silent last September 9 when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in Jerusalem and murdered Dr. David Applebaum (an emergency room doctor) and his daughter Nava (due to be married the next day).



The UN was silent last May 2 when two Palestinian terrorists shot eight months pregnant Tali Hatuel on a Gaza road. When the car ran off the road and stopped, the two terrorists came over and shot to death Mrs. Hatuel and her four young daughters in the car, and pumped numerous bullets into the dead bodies.



The UN was silent as Saddam gave $25,000 to the family of each Palestinian suicide terrorist bomber who killed himself (herself) to murder and maim civilian Israeli Jews. When Saddam was captured, the UN was conspicuously silent.



For decades the vast majority of Ambassadors to the UN have prostituted themselves to serve the interests of terrorist-supporting Arab states and the PLO. In this they have mocked the meaning of civil society in the world.



Before the UN was built, there was a meat slaughterhouse on the land. Since it was built, UN ambassadors who have remained silent about PLO and other Arab terrorist murder of Israeli Jews have the blood of the murdered imprinted in their hearts and souls, and mock the meaning of the UN. Jews who have been slaughtered by terrorists are no different in the minds and hearts of the silent UN ambassadors than the animals killed in the slaughterhouse, with one exception. The animals were slaughtered

in a humane way, not the victims of PLO and other Arab terrorist groups.



In this respect, the UN is a disgrace to civilization, an appeaser of murderous terrorists whose goal is the antithesis.



Sincerely yours,

Lawrence I. Gould

[Gabriel]

Lol, of course nobody could make a nuclear bomb without any jews in his team, sure !

You really have the Illusion of grandeur !

Let's see head of the Manhatan Project:
--Robert Oppenheimer- Jew

Person who wrote letter to Roosevelt describing the potential for nuclear bomb hense getting it started up and contributing VAST amounts of theory to the program
--Albert Eienstien- Jew

Described as "instrumental in creating the bomb"
http://www.mrdowling.com/706-manhattanproject.html
--Felix Bloch- Jew
--Otto Frisch- Jew

Scientists
--Edward Teller- Jew
-- Albert Goldstein- Jew

Theoretical physicist who conceived the idea of a nuclear chain reaction and tried to patent it in 1933.
http://hypertextbook.com/physics/modern/fission/
Leo Szilard-Jew

Scientific partner of Otto Hahn (father of Germany's Fission program), and often considered robbed of a Nobel prize for Fission.
http://www.popular-science.net/nobel/meitner.html
Lisa Meitner- Jew

INSTRUMENTAL scientist in the nuclear age.
Neils Bohr- Jew

[Mediocrates]

http://www.nishma.org/articles/commentary/thewall.html

<excerpt>
It is the misplaced proprietary and existential interest in Israel's activities, primarily those that relate to the ongoing (and, in their eyes, failing) enterprise of Partition, that is the fundamental conflict of interest plaguing any chance of objectivity and even-handedness (http://www.israel-un.org/israel_un/uneasyrelation.htm) by the UN. The assumptions which support the UN's power to slice up a forfeited colony into separate States with externally-imposed boundaries stand in direct contradiction with the principles of sovereignty and self-determination as outlined in its own charter. This contradiction softens the principles embedded in the UN charter, preventing them from becoming manifest within the processes used in settling international issues. This is the core problem, because any process that is genuinely committed to the Charter's principles would not tolerate the particular political agendas of Antisemitic and Dictatorial member states. The very fact that these agendas continue to hold sway reveals the failure of the UN to enforce a Charter-consonant process for issues concerning Israel. One of the most flagrant examples of this was that from its inception until May 2000 (http://www.ou.org/public/statements/2000/betty13.htm), Israel was the only member state that was ineligible (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/uneligible.html) to sit on the Security Council and key UN committees.

Unfortunately, at the UN's outset, it has set procedural precedents that violate its own principles, creating a momentum and tradition that will be very hard to reverse. (As a result, it is primarily, if not exclusively, by virtue of US veto power in the Security Council that the military options in Article 42 have never been employed by a large international force against Israel.)

More to the point, it is the UN's very failure to offer Israel the status of other member states that could ultimately prove to be the greatest long-term danger to international peace and security. Empowering the UN as arbiter of Israel's right to exist is inconsistent with the UN Charter's respect for the sovereignty of member nations. This has left Israel with a defacto lesser grade of sovereignty than other states, with the effect of unfettering the UN, enabling it to get involved in Israel's affairs in a way that is not limited by the usual rights that come with sovereignty. Further, by adopting, in practice, the notion of degrees of sovereignty, the UN is undermining its own core principles which it needs in order to fulfill its function of fostering international peace and security. By obfuscating the concept of sovereignty, the UN is teasing out and pulling at a loose thread that must eventually unravel the tapestry. As human history has taught us, any weakening, any loophole in the sovereign character of statehood is all that is necessary to "Cry Havoc! And let slip the dogs of war" (http://www.shakespeare-online.com/quotes/juliusquotes.html): a future which would render the UN as obsolete and ill-conceived as its predecessor, the League of Nations.

The manifestations of this failing are already right before us: it is precisely because of the corrupting influence of the UN's conflict of interest, and the resulting behaviour towards Israel, that has emboldened Arab terrorists, offering them a license for unrestrained violence against this nation of "questionable (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/)" validity.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=11804019_1

excerpt



The End of the Right of Self-Defense? Israel, the World Court, and the War on Terror


Andrew C. McCarthy

A country’s right to defend itself against external attack is so irreducible a component of sovereignty as to have been assumed from time immemorial. Recent events, however, have cast serious doubt on the continued viability of this assumption�and, with it, the concepts of sovereignty and selfdetermination as we have long understood them.


On July 9, the International Court of Justice (ICJ), by a lopsided vote of fourteen to one, held that the security barrier being constructed by Israel to shield its citizens from relentless terrorist assault is an affront to international law. The ruling broke ground on several levels, both procedural and substantive. Should it gain universal currency, it would impair not merely Israel’s power to protect itself but also the U.S. war against the Islamic terror network that slaughtered 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and the ability of the West to cope with the uniquely threatening environment of the 21st century. No less alarmingly, it would place in question the future of international law itself.


................................................

What finally are the ramifications for the U.S. and the world? Even a half-hearted or partial American acceptance of the ICJ opinion would mean acceptance of two conclusions that are anathema to American constitutional governance. First, if the new rule is that terrorist attacks by subnational actors are an insufficient predicate for measures of self-defense, then the U.S. has unlawfully invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. And if Article 51 as brocaded by the ICJ is now to be the criterion of permissible self-defense, the Bush Doctrine and preemptive self-defense�indeed, even wholly passive measures like, perhaps, missile defense and tight border controls�are impermissible for a nation that wishes to be thought law-abiding. At a time when, among other concerns, al Qaeda scours the earth for weapons of mass destruction, terrorists scout high-profile targets on the East Coast, and Iran is at the threshold (if not beyond) of a nuclear capability, this is suicidal.

Second, and more fundamental, is the issue of sovereignty itself. Self-defense is nothing less than the right to survive, the most elementary prerogative of nationhood. Self-determination, about which the ICJ declaimed loftily and airily, is about who gets to decide whether I survive; and sovereign self-determination, at bottom, means that a nation must make that decision for itself�not search for a key to it in the latest gloss on Article 51, delegate it to an international bureaucracy, or, still worse, abdicate it to an international judicial tribunal.

[Bonzawani]

Israel unarmed ? Make me laugh ! Oh yes it was David against Goliath ! But Israel will the help of God win this war... - medkorp


of course! The One G-d all mighty is on our side. Pity Arabs can't see and recognize that fact after so many decades of war that cost the Arabs so many lives. It was G-d's will, that we Israelis won so many wars and battles. Yet the Arabs can't accept that. Pity. Arabs should never act against the will of G-d. - Gilgamesh

medkorp – Listen to Gilgamesh.
If you believe in your Quran, read it. It says to get answers from those who read the "Bible". ("And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which we reveal unto thee, then ask those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee.� - Sura Yunus 10:95)
In Genesis, G-d promised Israel to Abraham's children thru Isaac.

In addition, G-d said the Muslims will be violent and hated! ("You shall call his name Ishmael ... And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall live in the presence of all his brothers. - Genesis 16:11-12)

Bonz

PS: Since the Forum doesn’t have an introduction section…
I discovered Israel Forum while researching for a debate in one of my other forums. It is a pleasure to find a forum, where almost all members think as I do!
- Bonzawani ben Eliyahu

EDIT: I posted too soon. Before I read you did not believe in G-D.
So you are kaffir... Be wary of your fellow Arabs!

[Emunah]

The Syrians seem to enjoy pitting their enemies against their enemies no matter where they find them. Where do they get the money for all of that anyway? What portion of their GDP must go towards providing arms for every conceivable militant (some are not "terrorists" per se) group around?

[Mediocrates]

http://www.meforum.org/article/652

From the introductory section:

Is Israel's Security Barrier Unique?
by Ben Thein


On July 9, 2004, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel's security barrier was a violation of international humanitarian law and human rights law. Eleven days later, the United Nations General Assembly voted 150-6 to condemn Israel and demand removal of the barrier. All twenty-five members of the European Union supported the motion.[1] (http://www.meforum.org/article/652#_ftn1) The EU position would not have been so offensive had it not then undertaken an act of stunning hypocrisy. In August 2004, the EU put out tenders for companies to construct a European separation fence to prevent migration into the EU from countries excluded from it.[2] (http://www.meforum.org/article/652#_ftn2) European officials undertook to build a wall less than one month after condemning Israel's barrier at the United Nations.

EU countries are not the only ones to display hypocrisy. Several states voting to condemn Israel themselves have built barriers on disputed land, often as a response to terrorism. Israel's decisions rest on firm precedent. India, for example, has built a barrier along its line-of-control with Pakistan. Following a number of violent confrontations with Yemeni soldiers and tribesmen, the Saudi Arabian government unilaterally began constructing a barrier on land disputed by its southern neighbor. Morocco has built a barrier against Algerian infiltration in the disputed territory of Western Sahara. Ironically, while both British foreign minister Jack Straw and Turkish foreign minister Abdullah Gül condemned Israel's security fence, both their countries have built their own barriers to combat terrorism. In Cyprus, it is the U.N. itself that, at significant hardship to the local populace, sponsored a security fence reinforcing the island's de facto partition.

The idea of physical separation between Israelis and Palestinians predates the current Palestinian intifada. A brutal 1992 terrorist murder of a teenage girl in Bat Yam helped motivate Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin to negotiate the Oslo accords. Physical separation was not yet on the table. But in 1994, in response to a suicide attack in Tel Aviv, Rabin declared, "We have to decide on separation as a philosophy."[3] (http://www.meforum.org/article/652#_ftn3)

While Rabin's assassination sidetracked the barrier plan, Prime Minister Ehud Barak revived the idea. Shortly before the collapse of the July 2000 Camp David summit, Barak gave a speech arguing that separation would both guarantee security and preserve the Jewish identity of the state. Barak continued to state that "a physical separation" would be "essential to the Palestinian nation in order to foster its national identity and independence, without being dependent on the state of Israel."[4] (http://www.meforum.org/article/652#_ftn4) However, it would be a Likud government that would actually bring the goal to fruition. On February 21, 2002, following a rash of suicide bombings, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared his support for the barrier. Whatever resistance there was in his government was swept aside the next month after Palestinian terrorists killed 80 Israelis and wounded 600 in twelve different suicide attacks. On April 14, 2002, Sharon's security cabinet approved a plan to build three "buffer zones" in areas where terrorists had frequently infiltrated Israel;[5] (http://www.meforum.org/article/652#_ftn5) construction began two months later.[6] (http://www.meforum.org/article/652#_ftn6) While the West Bank security fence is long by Israeli standards at about 500 miles when complete,[7] (http://www.meforum.org/article/652#_ftn7) it is, nevertheless, small in comparison to other barriers in existence.