Anti-semitism

[Belgium@EU]

Every time I make a comment on Israel, and critizise Sharon, I'm accused of anti-semitism. When somebody makes comments on France, Belgium or the EU he gets the full support. Ofcourse critizing France is legal, it's a democracy, but when it comes to Israel, they always get behind the same old argument of anti-semitism. That's just stupid, and using this kinds of arguments will only put Israel in an even weaker position. The holocaust was a terrible thing to happen, but why does Israel always justify what they are doing now, while I see a clear parallel between what Germany did in the early 30's (before the camps and the Gas chambers) in what Israel is doing right now. Is saying the truth anti-semitism? Anti-semitism is a form of racism, just like zionism. It's so easy to condemn somebody of being anti-semite: France, the EU, while these people have nothing against Jews in particular but against the killing of civilians.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Anti-semitism is a form of racism, just like zionism.

Are you saying Zionism is racism?

[Belgium@EU]

Yes zionism is a form of racism. But zionism is not the same as semitism. Semitism is ok for me, but zionism is extreme.

[thrud]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
When somebody makes comments on France, Belgium or the EU he gets the full support. I don't know if the always get full support. I am fairly anti-Europe and I do think that the official policies of Europe have been anti-Semitic in the past and that some of them still are.

I do not think Zionism is racism. As a Later-day Saint, I am a Zionist of sorts. Most of us think that going to the Salt Lake Valley was to establish a land where we could worship freely and escape from religeous persecution in the East, in Illinios,and Missouri. This is Zionism, not racism. We didn't kill any of the natives, the US Army did when they came to tell us that we could not worship as freely as we wanted to.

I think the Zionist movement is only intended to establish a land for the Jews to live and worship in as they wanted.

[Mediocrates]

Belgian, you get today's Utter Load Of **** Award - -

You defend racism by claiming antiracism. You call other people racists and piss and whine that other people call you racist. You are not a hypocrite; you are their God!!

[Vic]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Yes zionism is a form of racism. But zionism is not the same as semitism. Semitism is ok for me, but zionism is extreme.
Semitism?. Never heard the expression. What does it mean?

[Moon]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
France, the EU, while these people have nothing against Jews in particular but against the killing of civilians. That's ********!! They are against the killing of palestinian civilians. I never saw any European "peace activist" urging Arafat to condemn suicide attacks against Israelis.

That typical comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is really awsome. Can you please explain that "clear parallel" instead of simply saying that A equals B and waiting for us to simply accept that? I guess it's too dificult for you to explain is it?

[Belgium@EU]

Well, first of all, Israel expanded its territory with 50 % in the 1967 war, compare this to the "lebensraum" of Germany (Czech rep, Austria ...).

Germans were also performing raids on villages.

And the resistance who fought against the Germans got all support from the west, but some of them you can also define as "terrorists". Blowing up trains with civilians ... you get my point?

It's not to difficult to explain. I also said Germany in the early 30's, before the 1938 revolution.

[Moon]

I see your point.

I hope you don't mind but I've put you in my Ignore list.

[Mediocrates]

when putsch comes to shove.....

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by Moon
I see your point.

I hope you don't mind but I've put you in my Ignore list.


I really don't care

[Metal_Girl]

I do not like to see two of you not talk with each other like that. :( Belgium and Moon. COme on. :) But I must say, that of course racism is bad, always, we must not discriminate, against jews, or palestiniians, or blacks, or like that. We are all humans no?

-Leila

[Gatorade]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Well, first of all, Israel expanded its territory with 50 % in the 1967 war, compare this to the "lebensraum" of Germany (Czech rep, Austria ...).

Israel could have had a lot more terrority (don't know the actual percentage but Isreal could be something like 80% bigger) if it kept the Sinai. And the Sinai has oil.

Israel was willing to give back the West Bank in 1967. It made a proposal that would lead to a Palestinian state in 2000 and before that set up the PA to goven Palestinians living on the West Bank. It doesn't want the West Bank. It wants peace.

And Israel didn't attack Jordan to gain the land. It acted in its own defense. It could be argued if Israel attacked Egypt or if Egypt closing the Straits of Tiran was a declaration of war. But Israel didn't attack Jordan. Jordan attacked Jerusalem after they thought that Egypt was winning a battle with Israel.

Poor analogy.

[Evolution]

In defence to the EU, it is an incredibly tolerant place. Very few people across the union have a problem with any one. I myself have never experienced trouble anywhere in the EU.

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by Evolution
In defence to the EU, it is an incredibly tolerant place. Very few people across the union have a problem with any one. I myself have never experienced trouble anywhere in the EU.

I'm glad somebody has spoken up. It's wrong to judge the EU of being intollerant if you don't know anything about it or its politics.

[Mediocrates]

So if you are prejudiced only against Israelis it's ok. There aren't very many of them and they live far away anyway.


Those Goddamn Papua New Guinians I hate their goddamn guts!!!!! Good thing I've never met one cause I'd sure tell him what's what.

[Belgium@EU]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
So if you are prejudiced only against Israelis it's ok. There aren't very many of them and they live far away anyway.
.

Mmm, have you ever opened a map of the world. Did you compare the distance between Israel and Greence (EU member) and Israel and the US? Than you also find out that Israel is not at all far away, and it's practically a part of Europe. So for you Americans living oversea it's so easy to say you support Israel 100 %. Israel is closer to Europe than it is to the US. And there are thousands of Jews living here in Belgium for example. They are all in the diamant-business (Antwerp).

[Vic]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
And there are thousands of Jews living here in Belgium for example. They are all in the diamant-business (Antwerp).
All of them "in the diamant-business"? Now this is a shining example of prejudice :-(

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU


Mmm, have you ever opened a map of the world. Did you compare the distance between Israel and Greence (EU member) and Israel and the US? Than you also find out that Israel is not at all far away, and it's practically a part of Europe.

Then allow them into the EU, eh? What say you?

[Evolution]

No Israel should not join the EU. Its a ME nation, not a European nation.

Turkey has greater claim to membership, and fo you really think the major EU players like France are wiling to upset the entire Arab world-who are equally close-by doing such a thing?

[Moon]

LOOOLL upset??? :D

The all-mighty European Union bows before the Arabs...

[Belgium@EU]

Israel will never become a EU-member as it is in Asia an not in the EU. So difficult? Turkey will most likely become a EU-member somewhere in 2010, but they need to do some homework in the meantime (human right abuses etc., Kurd problems).

And even if Israel was in Europe, they already pissed off France and Belgium, so I don't think they would be that welcome anymore. Maybe the US should tie up Israel behind their carriers and drag it to their coast (Florida or California). They can become the 51th state :D Sorry, bad joke!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
They can become the 51th state :D Sorry, bad joke!


The second largest foreign investor in the US economy is Holland. Perhaps you could move next door and become a US citizen by proxy.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Maybe the US should tie up Israel behind their carriers and drag it to their coast (Florida or California). They can become the 51th state :D Sorry, bad joke!
Not a bad idea, is it, except for becoming the 51st state?
We did have a thread on unusual solutions somewhere in the forum, this one would crown it.

[raven]

"in the diamonD business" Ding ding ding ding ding...Bells going off...Woop there you are. Geeze.

And let Israel join in partnership with the US., Canada, etc. Then we both can beat the pants off Europe, in all areas. Israel is even ahead of the US, believe it or not, in some very critical scientirfic areas. Incidently, citizens are SOOO Pro America that when asked if they were to become part of the US over 50% of Israelis answered YES. Thats how close the values are of these two countries. Ask an Arab...if they would consider being part of the US...sharing values and laws...Are you kidding. Therefore who SHOULD America support, people that love them like the Issraelis, or people that really hate everything WE in America stand for?--like the Arab/Islamic WOrld.

[Blueprint]

zoinism aer a from of racism, jus liek basketbal

[Teacake]

Lots of links and nice music served with it too.

http://dafnayee.home.attbi.com/links/jewishlinks1.htm

[raven]

There you are Teacake...I went to your link and found "Root and Branch"...Group there helping Jews IN ISRAEL..that have been Missionized to IN ISRAEL..I ought to write the head of it for support..Every time I talk about this..youd think I was talking about "flying saucers". I KNOW what Im talkin...YOu know it too...Sheesh.

[Teacake]

I am surprised they have that link too. I never felt comfortable reading the stuff in their articles. And why would Jews for Judaism be involved with them? Actually, Jews for Judaism seems legit.. but I really can't tell... the missionary groups have become highly skilled at deception... but I think Jews for Judaism is really Jewish... what do you think?

But... that site does have a lot of good information. I love the one that says...
Judaism and why **NOT** Jesus (or "Yeshua" or Whatever)

[raven]

Thanks for the informative links everyone. This Forum is sooooo much better than the one a couple of us were on. Just can learn an awful lot. Again thanx.

[raven]

Tea...Jews For Judiasm is totally completely LEGIT...It is exactly what it says it is. Ive known about it for a long time..maybe?? 10 or more years..Longer maybe. Used to come on our Talk Radio..Head of CAMERA knew about it and some dealings with them.

[Alfred]

The subject of this thread is anti-Semitism….

You know, I have learned a lot on this forum over the past couple of weeks. I have always taken for granted that I supported Israel and the Jews. I had always felt an affinity with both. I have never really been associated with too many Jews, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

I have come to the conclusion however that half the posters on this board are in the same class as the neo-nazis, skin heads and other vagrants you so despise. Some of the posters are professional victims and hate anything and everything non-Jewish. In fact, some of these posters so waddle in self-pity that everyone is suspect in their eyes.

Some believe that everyone is an anti-Semite and will go to all ends to prove their point. When they succeed in driving the former friend to the point that he says "to hell with the Jews" they smugly grin and say, "I told you so, he was an anti-Semitic all along." But I have noticed that while everyone is willing to jump to defeat anti-Semitism spouted by any poster, you ignore the trash that some are flinging on Christians.

Some of you are class acts, Mediocrates for one, and I apologize in advance for this outburst.

But these last couples of weeks have taught me plenty. If you want to be hated, to be scorned, to be rejected, then you have lots of front line soldiers fighting for that cause.....mostly here in America. Perhaps it is the same in Europe? I have tried to point out that Conservative Christians could be a natural ally but have been told that Christians are Jew-hating fanatics that are trying to destroy the Jewish culture. I have tried to point out that the only problem most Conservative Christians have with Jews is that so many are on the political left…only to be told that that statement in itself is anti-Semitic. According to some of you, we Christians in America have to cancel Christmas, take God out of our songs, and bend over backwards to please 2% of the population. I notice that the Moslems have not even asked for that.

I have become disenchanted by my experience here, and again, I am not pointing to all of you. You ask in a hundred different ways why there is anti-Semitism in world. I cannot explain the folks who think there is a genetic reason, but I can understand folks who would say that their experience with Jews has not been pleasant. If the world has had similar experiences that I have had in the past couple of weeks then I understand a lot more than I did before.

This is my first, and probably my last attempt to speak freely with members of your religion. My eyes have been opened a bit and many of the presumptions I have made are apparently in error. If 70% of the Jews are Lefties, and another 15% are the ones who have disenchanted me on this board, then that leaves 15% of you who would probably be allies. I can get better odds with Europeans.

How many presumptions have I made against the Arabs? Truthfully, I have not had similar discussions with Arabs like I have had on this board in the past several weeks. Perhaps it is time for me to open a dialog with them. I don’t like their terrorism and murder, but perhaps that is only a small group that can be removed with better relations. Maybe Takeo is right on some things. No, that is too hard to believe............

--For those who are wondering what brought this on—read the Salt Lake City thread.

You guys are on your own from now on as far as I am concerned. There better be a damn good, strategic reason, from a purely American point of view, to support you. And there may be, but I am going to demand to see it from now on. The magic is gone.

To those of you who’s life goal is to find anti-Semites. Look at yourself and decide if perhaps, you are not creating them in the process.

Alfred out.... I am no longer a supporter, but a neutral.

[Communication]

Belgium,

you say that zionism is racism. maybe when the whole of the Arab world is secular and there are equal rights for all, then we can talk about what is "racist" about zionism. Now, you can get into the whole "greater Israel" zionism, versus early zionism or whatever definition you want. The reality, however is that:

1. Original zionists would never have gotten very far had it not been for both the holocaust and the 800,000+ Jews who were made refugees from the Arab world and

2. Right now, those Jews are not going to live as a minority population (or run the risk of it) as long as the Arab world is going through their own process of figuring out what kind of political reality they want to live in. Turkey is an exception today. You have many difffernet ideologies running around in the Palestinian camp. Some want a secular government, some want a religious government, and other governments in the Arab world feed the islamist terror networks in Palestine.

I would love for everyone to live in one happy-happy joy-joy place but it just isn't the reality and it never has been.


Sme reading for you:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html


The other comment you made about Israel expanding its territories through the 67 war, would you have prefered that they loose the war? What is it with you Euros? It seems like you can only handle your Jews when they are up on crosses. Did you know that after Israel won the war, they offered Syria, Egypt and the PLO the territory right back in exchange for peace agreements and all three refused. Israel offered the Pals something that neither Egypt or Jordan ever did, and they refused. ANd don't think that if Israel gives up all the 67 territory tomorrow, that there will be peace. There are more than a 1/2 dozen differnet terror networks, all with their owns agendas, some wanting all the land back, some willing to accept less, some wanting everything to be Islamic, some wanting it to be secular, and the PA has never shown the willingness (even with CIA training and weapons) to stop the terror networks. The only change will be that it will be harder for Israel to respond when the terrorists enter Israel and carry out their attacks. Right now, it's much easier for the IDF to enter Palestinian cities.

[Mediocrates]

You know, on a very personal level, I can't always tolerate even the people I love. But that's the way people are. Do you people even understand what the word community even means? It doesn't mean everyone agrees with everyone else.

I'm afraid we've all become so obsessed with our differences we've come to hate our common ground.

I could go on but I'm too disgusted.

[raven]

Alfred was NEVER a supporter of Israel OR Jews in the first place. THe only way he would support us..is if we retained an "inferior" position to him. Dare we speak up..and speak the truth to him--and the support EVAPORATES. You've lost NOTHING people..cause the support was never there. The support was ONLY IF..we fullfilled HIS storyline. That isnt what weve been fighting for ..for thousands of years..to fullfil others ideas of Israel. This has been a PERFECT OBJECT LESSON.

IF we sucked up to him, agreed..with him..all would be well..he would LOVVEEEE Israel and JEws. Like many of his group he sees Jews and Israel and the loosers of Israel and G-ds favor and HIS people as the inheritors ..the righeous Inheritors ...of Israel of old and the New and Legitimate Israel..ie..America. IMPLICATIONS..People...what COULD they be???

How many of US go onto other Religions Formums and trash the people there? Not many I suspect.

And..you are free to find out the trouble Israel has had in many ways (NOT publicized for sure cause of the backlash from Mormons)..This is a Religion that is distinctly PRO Arab and PRO Palistinian and has been from the first.

[Teacake]

I had it with him when he said... you people better decide what side your on - referring to left wing Jews... funny he didn't put the non-Jewish leftys in the same boat, of which there a lot more of these days. AND... his comment about how we came here to his wonderful christian refuge and ruined it. And why some of the posters still insisted he wasn't an anti-semite... and blamed us for being rude, is something I don't understand.

[Matzoh Ball]

RIGHT ON RAVEN!

[Teacake]

It's good to see Raven back. And its great to have a place for Jews to express our feelings, even among so many of us who disagree. AND I LOVE THE IGNORE feature.

[raven]

Where did he say those things? And this ISNT an antisemite? Sounds like John or another version of John. Disagree with him or dare to speak up..and you are anti..whatever he is..and hes going to go over and talk to Arabs. Shoot. And it ALLLLLL OURRRRF FAULT...

I love making nice..but nice doesnt work..most of the time. We keep trying it..you think we would learn already. "Shvieg" (that means shush..in Yiddish) is used too often in some circumstances...
At least, I think so...

I never said anything to this guy that wasnt true. He is so NOT a mensch that when I dared to talk about a truly discraceful incident..on the part of HIS group..we went ballistic (in his own way). I happen to think that forced Secret Conversion of our Dead Relatives..is way out of the Pale...Sheesh. Maybe others dont think its so bad...I dont know....

I would remind you..that I dont even know all the Jews here..but I can safely say that we arent going onto HIS forums and trashing HIM....

We are discussing our problems with each other and friends. E Gad..How many times do we see others comming on our boards JUST to trash us..eventually..What is UP with that?

Now...also what is UP with this leftie and rightie business???Jews havent been excusively left..for YEARS...Im not Utlra right..you arent Ultra right...But HE IS...and soooooooooo. He is PRE..DISPOSED...to look at Jews who were once left (and for good reason) in a negative light.

SUCH ..a perfect OBJECT LESSON..Crimminy....