Make no mistake, Israel, France is clearly now an enemy

[Canajew]

Last Update: 22/07/2004 19:24

FM: EU vote encourages PA to avoid fighting terror

By Shlomo Shamir, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said Thursday that this week's European vote supporting a UN General Assembly resolution against the separation fence encourages the Palestinians to continue avoiding their obligation to fight terrorism.

He made the comments during a joint press conference in Tel Aviv with European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana after meeting with him for an hour.

"The government and people of Israel are deeply disappointed by Europe's decision to vote with the Palestinians and against the fence," Shalom said.

"The EU should be engaged in promoting Palestinian reform in Gaza and Ramallah, not Palestinian manipulation in the UN," the foreign minister said, adding that Europe's vote "encourages the Palestinians to continue their evasion of responsibility" on fighting terror.

"Of course, it's necessary to support the UN and its principles, but not to permit a cynical use of the UN," Shalom said.

Solana, meanwhile, said the West Bank separation fence violates international law, and dismissed the contention that Europe is anti-Israel.

"A country has the right to build a fence on its own territory, but we believe the route of this fence is contrary to international law," Solana said at the press conference.

He said he knows the fence has saved lives, but that it could also have saved lives if it had been constructed within the Green Line. "No single European country is against Israel," Solana said.

Solana's comments came just two days after the European Union infuriated Israeli leaders by supporting the General Assembly resolution calling on Israel to tear down the fence in compliance with the International Court of Justice ruling issued earlier this month.

Earlier Thursday, an Israeli official said Israel had decided to give Solana an especially "difficult and cold reception" during his visit to Tel Aviv.

Although Shalom met with Solana as planned, scheduled meetings and photo opportunities involving Solana and other government officials have been canceled.

Solana is on a four-day regional tour to Israel, Jordan and Egypt, but he will not visit the Palestinian Authority.

Israel made clear to senior European officials at United Nations headquarters Wednesday that "it will be very difficult in the future to include the EU as a party in efforts to advance the peace process," after the European Union joined the sweeping majority that passed a General Assembly resolution condemning the West Bank separation fence.

Senior Israeli and EU officials met Thursday in Tel Aviv to discuss the matter after the Foreign Ministry summoned European ambassadors for consultations, lambasting the EU for supporting the United Nations resolution.

Foreign Ministry director-general Ilan Biran summoned the ambassadors to express Israel's displeasure over the European position on the fence, the ministry said in a statement.

The European Union vote shows it is "willing to pay the price of the basic principles of justice and morality and raises doubts about the European Union's ability to contribute constructively to the advance of the peace process," the statement said.

The European support "even encourages Palestinian terrorism," according to the statement.

Under the resolution passed Tuesday, the General Assembly demands that Israel comply with the ruling of the International Court of Justice that the fence built on Palestinian land was illegal and should be torn down. The resolution also demands that Israel pay reparations for damages caused by construction of the barrier.

In a round of talks with EU representatives, Israeli diplomats said Wednesday that "the atmosphere created at the UN following passage of a one-sided resolution makes it doubtful that the EU, UN and Quartet will be able to play the role of honest broker."

Israel said that by backing the resolution, "EU countries ignored even Israel's right to defend itself. How can Israel place its future in your hands?"

But Labor Party chairman Shimon Peres said Thursday that Israel should tone down its criticism of the resolution, saying countries around the world had begun a quiet boycott of Israeli products, Israel Radio reported.

Meanwhile, the new United States ambassador to the UN, John Danforth, declared the resolution "utterly one-sided," since it "refrains from mentioning the threat of terror hovering over Israel."

Danforth added that the resolution "is part of a long series of one-sided resolutions passed by the assembly, and which contributed nothing to advancing peace in the Middle East."

Several European ambassadors tried to assuage Israel's anger. "We succeeded in balancing the wording of the resolution," a senior European diplomat told an Israeli colleague.

Senior EU officials also pledged that "we won't support additional measures that [Nasser] al-Kidwa is planning," referring to the PLO observer to the UN.

The resolution submitted by the Arab group passed Tuesday by a wide margin, with 150 member nations in favor, 6 against, and 10 abstaining. The six voting against were the U.S., Israel, Australia, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, and Palau.

A resolution passed by the assembly is non-binding and has mostly symbolic significance. However, from Israel's standpoint, this is a severe resolution through which the PLO is striving to create the basis for intensifying Israel's isolation and sanctions against it, like those imposed on South Africa under apartheid.

Furthermore, on the matter of the separation fence, the UN assembly will now wield what diplomats Wednesday called "a whip dangled in front of Israel," to be lifted whenever the Palestinians see fit.

Diplomats and commentators in New York speculated that al-Kidwa will not call upon the Security Council to convene before US elections in November, but will request in September that the emergency session of the assembly reconvene to discuss Israel's ongoing refusal to comply with Tuesday's resolution.

The vote's tally was interpreted as a stinging diplomatic blow to Israel. By contrast, the fact that the majority included nations that are deemed quality members was seen as an impressive diplomatic achievement by al-Kidwa.

In recent days, al-Kidwa orchestrated a focused and exceptionally skilled diplomatic effort behind the scenes, particularly vis-a-vis EU nations, which resulted in one of the most pro-Palestinian votes in UN history.

Veteran commentators observed that Israel also engaged in energetic diplomatic activity to reduce the extent of the expected majority and to increase the number of abstentions.

Diplomatic sources singled out efforts by Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom, who met with European counterparts until the last minute to persuade them to abstain. Shalom "said harsh things" to them, according to sources, and was especially forceful during a meeting Tuesday with the Dutch foreign minister, who is the current EU president.

A mere hour before the vote, EU ambassadors agreed that their 25 members would abstain, and the Dutch ambassador even rushed to inform al-Kidwa of this decision. At the last moment, however, France backed by Sweden blocked a final decision to abstain and pushed fellow members to support the resolution.

"It was the French connection that delivered Europeans' support for the resolution," a Western diplomat who wished to remain anonymous told Haaretz on Wednesday. "In behind-the-scene negotiations over the wording of the resolution, it was sometimes hard to distinguish between the eagerness of the PLO observer al-Kidwa and that displayed by French Ambassador [Jean-Marc de la] Sabliere," the diplomat added.

Commentators in New York said France's position might have been influenced by their fury over Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's call for French Jews to move to Israel.

EU officials explained their vote by citing al-Kidwa's last minute consent to modify the wording by adding a clause demanding that the Palestinians "take visible measures to stop and prevent individuals or organizations from planning or carrying out violent acts."

For the sake of balance, another clause demanded that Israel "refrain from taking steps that undermine trust - including deportation and counter-offensives against civilians - and cease illegal acts of killing."


France as Italy in WWII. Discuss.

[Gilgamesh]

I know it's a tad curt, but the french.

I second!

[Canajew]

2 things. First of all, France's behaviour and perversion of international institutions is disgusting. That is a given, more or less, and has been clear for some time.

Seocndly, however, and more importantly, is the influence that France exerts on the rest of the European Union. Just like France is interested in ensuring the world is not "uni-polar" and in counterbalancing the United States, I believe it is time for the US, Israel, the clear-headed nations within the EU that are not interested in merely towing the line of the French and prusuing french interests, and other nations interested in bettering the future and humanity to ensure that the EU itself does not end up "uni-polar", and that additional forces must be mobilized and brought to bear within the EU to strip the French of their disproportionate influence. Something must be done about France before they ruin the whole world.

Saw it on this board, forget where, but it is quite clear that the french are interested in advancing their own interests and their own power even at the expense of modern western civlization. They cannot be allowed to do this. Add this to the Le monde opinion that was posted somewhere by someone yesterday (with the whole the jews are trying to paint us, US!! as complicit in the holocaust - interesting thing, I read an essay written by George Orwell in 1944 yesterday, and he comments that the french were largely supportive of and sympathetic to the Germans, at least until they found out that THEY would be treated badly. The French, of course, have no recollection of this), and it is clear the french are girding for something, and just taking the time to whip their citizenry into sufficient frenzy to justify acting.


Before France finds some justification or another for entering this conflict on the military level, it will be necessary to ensure that an Israeli response will not cause the rest of the EU to intervene. The Mossad, and other covert operations, must undermine France's role in the EU, while other agencies provide the rest of europe some alternative to just towing the french line as they lead everyoine to the abyss.

I know it's a tad curt, but the french. They must be neutralized before they undermine both Israeli and US efforts to prevent the destruction of western civilization. And just like they seem to think its ok if some Jews die so that the Palestinains can have their rights, it is unfortunately ok if some of them die to prevent their govenrment from ruining the world.

[Isiah 2:4]

Well i have to say i am fairly disappointed that this board has become a french-bashing quagmire. Nearly every thread descends into rabid name-calling and hyperbolic demonisation of France. This is the kind of behaviour exhibited by short-sighted and morally repugnant people who have only one agenda: hate. Discuss and debate yes, but please do not let us conduct ourselves in the manner of the foolish.

That said; France is clearly torn between aspirations to dominate a much hoped for united EU foreign policy, opposing Anglo-American and even Anglophone military or political muscle, manipulation of the underlying Racism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and political turmoil that pervades European society, in an attempt to reassert a powerful role in the world which rapidly declined in the post-colonial era. France is in turmoil. Muslims hate Jews, Muslims hate decadent France, and the French hate both of them with equal ferocity; but for some reason, mostly out of the French establishments fear of social chaos, France appeases and ignores islamism in all its myriad forms.

Unlike many people at IF i cannot say it is the French nation themselves that are to blame; my uncle is French, married to a Jew, has extensive business dealings with Israel and he actively avoids any contact with France. I think that people in France are worried about the state of the country, and rightfully so. Unfortunately, their leaders are hopelessly equipped with the necessary character to instill confidence in the French poplulace - this is when instability appears, and from then on, who knows?

[Olivier]

I can't resist showing you part of canajew long mail to me (if you mind, canajew, get me a message through someone not on ignore and i'll remove this. it's not nice publishing a private message but the discrepancy with your behavior is so enormous I can't resist)
---
Anyway, this never-ending french bashing is a substitute to thinking. Go contribute to the french-bashing threads (or create more).
---

but of course you can only come to such a conclusion by ignoring the vast majority of the posts that dealt with legitimate, substantive issues. I pointed out where I disagree woith French (and European) opinion on many things, and provided reasons therefore. You can only make the above statement by ignoring all those comments, which I notice you have done. That's a great way to learn, eh?


And again, I show no contempt, I will just not defer to your opinion if I do not agree. And if your opinion is mainstream French opinion, I will point it out, point out why I disagree, indicate the impact of those errors in judgment, and try to fiugure out what leads to such errors in the first place. And if I believe that one of the causes of such misperceptions is an unwillingness to consider different opinions, whether due to arogance or anything else, I will point it out, and explain why.

And I am very open and welcoming. But again, we are in the realm of IDEAS here, not of managing interpersonal relations. Your ideas are not sacrosanct, and I cannot provide any more deference to them than to anyone elses. I would expect no less of anyone else here with my own opinions.

I am telling you, and have always been telling you. Your sensitivity is misplaced. You are proud of your country, and that's fine. But Americans are proud of their country too, and you do not (nor should you) not make arguments for the sake of avoiding harming their sensitivities. And you make arguments that would harm their sensitivities all the time. Why are you entitled to bait Americans and I am not allowed to hone my polemics a bit? Especially where others use selective omission to make one country look bad, while that omission avoids making one's own country look bad.

I don't know where you get hatred from, but it is not from me. I just have a fundamentally divergent view from mainstream French opinion, and I am not afraid to point that out and deliniate prewcisely those things I disagree with. Especially given the impact that opinion has on Israel in particular and the global war on Islamofacism in general. If you can't handle it, that's fine, I guess, but whenever you are ready, I am always here.

regards

all this nice talk for what?




Originally Posted by Canajew
I know it's a tad curt, but the french.


actually I prefer the second version, shorter, straighter and less hypocrytical indeed.
I was right feeling the seeds of your hatred were indeed present in your first posts.


(I'm not really nice posting a private message, but it's just too damm big - get a message sent to me if you are too furious and I promise I remove this post). I'm rolling on the floor laughing every time I read this over and over

[TDidier]

Behind the mask, the man.

[TDidier]

2 things. First of all, France's behaviour and perversion of international institutions is disgusting. That is a given, more or less, and has been clear for some time.

...

I know it's a tad curt, but the french. They must be neutralized before they undermine both Israeli and US efforts to prevent the destruction of western civilization. And just like they seem to think its ok if some Jews die so that the Palestinains can have their rights, it is unfortunately ok if some of them die to prevent their govenrment from ruining the world.

Israel and US prevent western civilisation falling?

By what? Replacing SHussein with a man who has the same practice (cold-blood killing of six prisonner-resistant, for the part we know)

[Semsem]

I second!

I third, fourth and fifth. Yes France is "our enemy." Instead of fighting Israel and the Jews militarily, they fight the Jewish people diplomatically. France is clearly an enemy of both the Jewish people and of the American people.

[Semsem]

[QUOTE=Isiah 2:4]Well i have to say i am fairly disappointed that this board has become a french-bashing quagmire. Nearly every thread descends into rabid name-calling and hyperbolic demonisation of France. >>

Oh I see Isiah: blame the victims of French bullying. France is doing all it can to stab Israel in the back diplomatically at the United Nations and in the EU; is supporting Arafat and demonising the Jewish State of Israel and you expect us to thank them; be grateful and love them? For who exactly do you take us for? A bunch of ninnies?

[Mediocrates]

Behind the mask, the man.

Behind the straw, more straw.

[NewsGuy]

The basic premise is, of course, true: The government of France is an enemy of Israel.

For that matter, we should remember the discussions in the U.S. about whether France is an enemy of the United States when France made a huge anti-American effort at the UN.

Instead of viewing France as a European country, we should view them as what they've become: An Arab country where the majority of the population is anti-Israeli and anti-American.

[Da Chuckstar]

A lot of us have much hatred for the French right now, but remember that even though they went around getting other EU nations to vote their way, that doesn't mean that they had to go along with the French. So part of the blame lies with the individual EU nations themselves. I would have thought that at the least the UK would abstain, but even they have lost their minds.

Go ahead and blame the French, but save some of that anger for the morons who decided to go along with them at the last minute.

[Gilgamesh]

I third, fourth and fifth. Yes France is "our enemy." Instead of fighting Israel and the Jews militarily, they fight the Jewish people diplomatically. France is clearly an enemy of both the Jewish people and of the American people.

EU fights Israel by proxies, through alliances with the Arabs, through supplaying weapons to the Arabs and WMD to the Iranians.

What kills American tanks in Iraq, are french missiles!

[Canajew]

I like it how Olivier pulls something out that was written, what, 3 months ago, and tries to use that to show what? that my views have evolved over time? That as france has become increasingly hostile and increasingly both obstructionist and increasingly willing to pander to and promote the interests of the enemy, it might cause me to reassess my perception of reality and adjust accoridngly? Or maybe he just read the thread title and didn't actually read the article or my comments (as he references neither).

I stand by what I wrote above, both in the personal message and in the thread starter. France is a far bogger danger to the world than the United States, and the French must not be allowed to undo all of the advances we have made. I do not hate the French, and will continue to get along with most of the French I meet. But if you will recall, American GIs generally got along very well with their German counterparts (not as well as french women did, of course, but I digress).

But in the grander scheme of things, in pursuing the "golden path" where the greater good and continued survival of western civilization trumps any casualties incurred anywhere, something must be done and it must be started soon to undermine French influence in the international arena. To avoid doing anything will only make fighting all the necessary fights of the future more difficult and will only strengthen the hands of those that would seek to destroy us.

And perhaps by achieveing other goals now that would result in some French casualties we can avoid the inevitable ethnic clensing and genocide of the French when the war moves from being the kind of war it is now to the open war where enemy populations sweep through the country and ferret out everyone who is not one of them. Sure the Islamists will look for the Jews first, but they will come for the rest of them afterwards.

As for TD, there was no mask. Just an aletration of my perceptions based on new information. You do try to LEARN over time, don't you? Israel and the United Sttaes are the vanguards of western civilization because they are those western targets that were selected first by the enemy. France, I guess, believes it will, like a good kapo, be targeted last by doing the enemy's bidding. And by doing that it gets to feel all powerful and prestigious and self-rightous as they are trying to PROTECT us from all these bad consequences that France is only making more likely.

Combine all of this with this editorial in Le Monde, and it is very clear the French are preparing to adopt a more "acitivist" role in fighting for the Arab and Islamist imperialists in their war against Israel, and, inevitably, the rest of the western world.

As for Isaih, I regret being so negative, I do not usually do this sort of thing. But reality is reality and one must call things as they see it. The French are preparing for something down the line, and as what they are preparing for is definitely against Israeli interests and almost certainly agaginst western interests (in a fundamental, existential way) it is necessary to start planning and acting NOW if they are to be neutralized. If we can neuter them, we will not need to fight them later.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=107230&postcount=38
and talk about clueless, take a good look who posted this bloody article.
He does not perceive anything at all. He likes it. Has respect for it.

And he can't even read any of this.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Canajew

As for Isaih, I regret being so negative, I do not usually do this sort of thing. But reality is reality and one must call things as they see it. The French are preparing for something down the line, and as what they are preparing for is definitely against Israeli interests and almost certainly agaginst western interests (in a fundamental, existential way) it is necessary to start planning and acting NOW if they are to be neutralized. If we can neuter them, we will not need to fight them later.
You do not need to apologize to anyone for what you post. You have contributed enormously to the discussion around here. Please keep up the good work, while ignoring the midgets nipping at your heels.

[Canajew]

Solana: Like it or nor, EU will be part of peace process http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/images/0.gifhttp://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/images/0.gifBy Aluf Benn (aluf@haaretz.co.il), Haaretz


The European Union will be involved in any Israeli-Palestinian peace process, whether Israel likes it or not, EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said during a visit to Israel on Thursday.

Both Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom warned Solana that following Europe's support for a United Nations General Assembly resolution against the separation fence Wednesday, the EU will be unable to play a significant role in resolving the conflict, because it is not impartial.

"Israel has an interest in integrating the international community, especially Europe, in a [peace] process with the Palestinians," Sharon told Solana, according to a statement issued by his office.

"But without a radical change in the European position, especially in relation to Israel's security and its need to defend itself, that will be difficult to do."

Shalom was even blunter, delivering his message at a joint press conference in Tel Aviv, with Solana standing alongside. "I find myself challenged to convince the Israeli people that the European Union is a [diplomatic] partner we can trust," he said.

But Solana did not seem alarmed. "We will be involved whether you want us or not," the EU foreign policy chief told Shalom.

Solana defended the EU's support for the resolution, which called on Israel to comply with the advisory opinion issued by the International Court of Justice in The Hague. The ICJ said that Israel should dismantle the fence throughout the West Bank and compensate the Palestinians.

"The United Nations and international institutions such as the International Court of Justice are in our view important components in the campaign to attain peace and security around the world," Solana said.

"A majority of 150 states supported the court's decision. We know what you think about the UN, but you can't stop us from honoring the decisions of the ICJ or the General Assembly. We will continue to support the UN in the future."

Solana noted that the EU opposed the route chosen for the separation fence. "We told you from square one that we oppose the construction of the wall in occupied Palestinian territory. I know that the fence has saved many lives, but it would also have saved these lives had it been built inside [the pre-1967 armistice line]. It must be recalled that many Palestinians have died."

Solana emphasized that Israel has a right to self-defense. No European country denies this, he said. Nonetheless, he added, Israel must honor international law.

"We respect the right of every country to construct a fence on its own territory," he said, but a route "through occupied territory" is not compatible with international law.

At the joint press conference, Shalom declared that Israel will continue to build the fence "in accordance with directives given by our Supreme Court."

Both Solana and Shalom tried during the conference to project an image of friendship for the cameras, including by referring to one another by their first names. But the cordiality for the media was a transparent attempt to cover up a terse private meeting.

Sharon also attacked the Europeans for backing the UN resolution. The Hague court's advisory opinion, he stated Thursday, "totally ignores the rampage of terror in Israel."

The new United States ambassador to the UN, John Danforth, also declared the resolution "utterly one-sided," as it "refrains from mentioning the threat of terror hovering over Israel."

In Sharon's view, the "meaning of the Hague Court and UN decisions is to furnish a green light to Palestinian terror."

He repeated that Israel would keep building the barrier, albeit with some shifts to move it closer to the Green Line to avoid cutting Palestinians off from their lands, as ordered by Israel's High Court.


Note the way they play to the institutions of international legitimacy and tie this into the legitimacy of what happened, even though there is nothing legitimate about it and they know it. They saw how it was undermined and they read that farce of a ruling. They talk about international law and the ICJ decision and how it must be respected, and they say they believe Israel has a right to defend itself against terrorism, but that same ICJ decision actually ruled that under international law Israel is NOT allowed to use force against the Palestinian terrorists.

And France is behind this European push, this legitimization of the show verdict of the ICJ.


A mere hour before the vote, EU ambassadors agreed that their 25 members would abstain, and the Dutch ambassador even rushed to inform al-Kidwa of this decision. At the last moment, however, France backed by Sweden blocked a final decision to abstain and pushed fellow members to support the resolution.

"It was the French connection that delivered Europeans' support for the resolution," a Western diplomat who wished to remain anonymous told Haaretz on Wednesday. "In behind-the-scene negotiations over the wording of the resolution, it was sometimes hard to distinguish between the eagerness of the PLO observer al-Kidwa and that displayed by French Ambassador [Jean-Marc de la] Sabliere," the diplomat added.

[Da Chuckstar]

He is totally ignoring the fact that it is disputed territory, not "occupied" territory. Is it because Mr Solana is ignorant of this fact or because he chooses to ignore the fact? I tend to think its the latter, which would lead me to believe that he is a racist like the others who go along with him even though they deny it.

[Semsem]

<<Go ahead and blame the French, but save some of that anger for the morons who decided to go along with them at the last minute.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. It's not only the French though they are the "ring leader." I will never forget Jack Straw who said that Israel should not have killed Sheik Yassin because he was a spiritual leader in a wheelchair. I hope the EU disintegrates. They are a real danger now that they are 1 nasty voioce.

[Semsem]

He is totally ignoring the fact that it is disputed territory, not "occupied" territory. Is it because Mr Solana is ignorant of this fact or because he chooses to ignore the fact? I tend to think its the latter, which would lead me to believe that he is a racist like the others who go along with him even though they deny it.

Solana is a Spaniard. In my opinion he is an antisemite. And most Spanish are.

[Semsem]

>>But Solana did not seem alarmed. "We will be involved whether you want us or not," the EU foreign policy chief told Shalom.<<

Solana is an arragant "son of the Inquisition." A real piece of dreck.

[Semsem]

>>The French are preparing for something down the line,<<

The French, the EU and Mr. Solana of Spain; EU Foreign Minister in my opinion are more of a threat to Israel than are the Arabs.

[medkorp]

Hi,

The basic premise is, of course, true: The government of France is an enemy of Israel.

France is not an enemy of Israel, but as usual Israel wants to make no effort at all ! The security Fence was on the Palestinian territory, so this Fence was illegal !

So Israel can blame France, or Europe, but in the final, the international justice court said: Security Fence Illegal !

For that matter, we should remember the discussions in the U.S. about whether France is an enemy of the United States when France made a huge anti-American effort at the UN.

Don't be so silly, France was against a war without a true reason, not the ADM lies ! But of course it's best for you to say anti-american...

Instead of viewing France as a European country, we should view them as what they've become: An Arab country where the majority of the population is anti-Israeli and anti-American.
The arab population in France is less than 10 percent ! And the the antisemitism in France is not high, if it was really an antisemitic, the statistic of alya will be much more great, but it's the same since 4 or 5 years...

France is against Bush, not the americans, it's not the same thing ! We are against the Bush political technics !

Medkorp

[TDidier]

Hi Medkorp, I vote for you.

Please Semsem, could you tell us who is not anti-semitic in your point of view, it would be easier for us ...

[Isiah 2:4]

Hey, i'm not a 'midget snapping at heels', i'm just trying to remind everyone that if they parade around charging themselves as 'civilized' individuals, it's hypocritical to fall into the practices you so obviously abhore, namely; petty, racist nationalism and fudged up thinking. Olivier, whilst a deranged character, unable to answer the most simple of questions and obviously a pro-Palestinian, anti-American, has a point when he says we descend into pointless and insignificant arguments when you reduce everything to France = bad Jew-hating frog-eaters, America = good, bold, Jew-loving noble crusaders. We all know that both of these assertions are not at all representative of either country. That's all i was trying to say.

[Olivier]

The arab population in France is less than 10 percent ! And the the antisemitism in France is not high, if it was really an antisemitic, the statistic of alya will be much more great, but it's the same since 4 or 5 years...

real statistic about muslems in france is here (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=102294&highlight=muslem+practising#post102294) :

6% muslems, 2% practising muslems, 1% jews (practising and not).


France is against Bush, not the americans, it's not the same thing ! We are against the Bush political technics !Bush is not appreciated at all. US policy has bad reputation. In france, in europe, in the world. I do not see how things could be any different today. It's such a shame the fight agaisnt terrorism was twisted into the invasion of iraq.

But when you get out of these question and poll about americans at large you get a much higher rating. Even the bad reputation of US policy is not "hatred" you can think someone is stupid without actually haitng him.



Fortunately, the french don't know this forum and don't realize the extend of the hatred campaign they are the target of.
Suppose there was some MEMRI system translating all the hatred campaign here the results would be disastrous....

The gilgamesh, mediocrates and all *are the haters*... not us in france and not europeans either.

[Canajew]

Hi,



France is not an enemy of Israel, but as usual Israel wants to make no effort at all ! The security Fence was on the Palestinian territory, so this Fence was illegal !

So Israel can blame France, or Europe, but in the final, the international justice court said: Security Fence Illegal !



Don't be so silly, France was against a war without a true reason, not the ADM lies ! But of course it's best for you to say anti-american...


The arab population in France is less than 10 percent ! And the the antisemitism in France is not high, if it was really an antisemitic, the statistic of alya will be much more great, but it's the same since 4 or 5 years...

France is against Bush, not the americans, it's not the same thing ! We are against the Bush political technics !

Medkorp
did you even read the materials the premise is based on? Again, you talk of respect for international law like automatic legitimacy follows the most illigitimate of decisions. And you ignroe the fact that the vote went as it did with EU nations because of the french.

Cowerdly post, if I may say so. Try addressing the points rather than just restating top-line french principles on the perception of reality.

And Isaih, I hjave a strong feling that Michael wasn't talking about you, but Olivier.

[Mediocrates]

The gilgamesh, mediocrates and all *are the haters*... not us in france and not europeans either.


I can't actually recall the last burned down synagogue in the US. I do know that the last antisemitic murder that made all the papers was Yankel Rosenbaum and that was what, ten years ago?

I can't actually recall any public march parade or rally where thousands of people openly and with police watching from the sides called for the deaths of Jews. Not even the Nazis marching in Skokie the home of many Holocaust survivors was allowed to bullhorn much of anything.

I can't recall a single instance where an elected Israeli official was declared persona non grata from the US.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe it is right when it says 'muslims have no power in France'. That could be true for sure the old world nazis and classic antisemite crypto-genocidists do. At least those are the people the French have elected to lead them these past ten years. With leaders slightly more hateful than Hamas, who needs Hamas?

[medkorp]

Hi,

did you even read the materials the premise is based on?
Of course, it's better to know what about we are talking, so don't ask !

Again, you talk of respect for international law like automatic legitimacy follows the most illigitimate of decisions. And you ignroe the fact that the vote went as it did with EU nations because of the french.

I know that, but there's no trouble in that, France is a strong member of Europe, and her voice has been listen, but in final if 150 states says : Yes Israel is in fault, don't just check why France has done that, but think why the others states was done the same thing !

Cowerdly post, if I may say so. Try addressing the points rather than just restating top-line french principles on the perception of reality.
How funny ! Perception of reality ! The only reality is that one :

The international Justice court has said that the security fence ils illegal !

After that you can always says it's Europe or France fault !

Medkorp

[Canajew]

I figured I would give you a more substantive response, so you can see what problems I (and, I would think, many others) have with your statements.


France is not an enemy of Israel, but as usual Israel wants to make no effort at all ! The security Fence was on the Palestinian territory, so this Fence was illegal !

talking like you know what you are talking about. The ICJ in its advisory opinion that was both non-binding and was about the worst set of juridical arguments I have read in all my time as a law student or lawyer, actually ruled that not only was the fence "illegal", but that Israel was not allowed to use the right to self defence in section 51 of the UN charter to protect itself against anything the Palestinians would like to do. The court came ot this determination by making the statement that this section only applied to acts of aggression eminating from nation states. This was done with absolutely zero analysis, and notwithstanding that first there is absolutely no indication that this is true, and more importantly that this is entirely inconsistent with the nature of the UN and why it was created in the first place. There is no way nations who joined the UN would give up their sovereign right to defend themselves against non-state actors who threaten the security of their citizens.

This would technically apply to the US in dealing with al-quaeda and the Spanish in dealing with whoever attacked them (the Jews, if you would listen to the Saudis).

And so basically before you latch onto a legal decision, you should understand what it is (non-bionding), understand its juridical value (basically zero, given that they really had no standing to hear the case in the first place and they clearly had an agenda that cam across very clearly in their ruling (you have actually READ the thing you pontificate about, no? Read the Blumenthal dissent too for an indication of exactly what is wrong with the decision. If you cannot reason away his dissent, you have lost)) and understand what its wider implications are.

The UN is a ruined, corrupted insitution. The EU may want to maintain it for its semblance of legitimacy, but the general assembly does not really impart ANY legitimacy on anything, and it is, in part, because the french have allowed it to be manipulated by the tyrants and dictators and oppressors for their own agenda.


So Israel can blame France, or Europe, but in the final, the international justice court said: Security Fence Illegal !

again, read the bloody thing before you spout off about it. It also says doing anything to protect Israeli citizens from Palestinian terrorism is "illegal". It is also non-binding, and the court never really had standing to issue the decision in the first place. You are porepared to provide automatic legitimacy to organizationsd because of their standing, ignoring that they abise this legitimacy for their own agendas.

You are the first step in the next round of fascist governments, on that line of reasoning.


Don't be so silly, France was against a war without a true reason, not the ADM lies ! But of course it's best for you to say anti-american...

bull. France was trying to get sanctions dropped so that it could exploit Iraqi resources. It was obstructionist because it was concerned with its own interests. France missed the point. the justification for war was Iraqi non-compliance with binding resolution after binding resolution of the security council. To let the Iraqis get away with it, to stand up to the US and have the world force the US down, wqould have sent the worst possible message to the rest of the enemy nations and non-state actors that they could become more brazen, more aggressive. Iraq was not a war, but a battle in a larger war.

You don't see that, but given France's interests in undermining the US and promoting its own self-importance, there is nor eason the rest of us should care.


The arab population in France is less than 10 percent ! And the the antisemitism in France is not high, if it was really an antisemitic, the statistic of alya will be much more great, but it's the same since 4 or 5 years...

whatever. France has adopted a more pro-Arab policy than some Arab states, and is only concerned with how to position itself as a leader that can direct the Arab world to its bidding. In 50 years, what do you think population numbers will look like? Add this to the bgl;atant propaganda, lies, and mobilization of the French to arab causes and interest by the government and media, and it doesn't take a genious to say that in 10 years, when the arab population is 15 or 20%, that France will drop the charade of being a nominal US ally and start charting its own course to the detriment of the rest of us.


France is against Bush, not the americans, it's not the same thing ! We are against the Bush political technics !

Medkorp
bull. you can latch onto bush as much as you want, but france is anti american and has always been anti american. You are against US influence, you are against US power, and you are against US interests. Add that to the demonization of the US in your press and in your intelligista, and it makes you anti American.

You are not, of course America's enemy like you are Israels (yet, at least), as you are only being obstructionist at this point with respect to American interests, rather than actively seeking to do detrminetal things like you are doing with Israel, but we know you are doing it, and we know why.

Protest all you want. It is actions that count, not protests of innocence. Latch onto bush all you want. When the us has their next president (whether later this year or 4 years from now) and you continue your exact same policies and perceptions, that excuse will fall by the wayside just like with respect to your excuses regarding your widespread collaboration with the Nazis.

[Canajew]

whatever the court saiud, if it is illegitimate and its judicial reasoning unsound, it means nothing, especially given the political agenda that is being pushed here. You can take your blind obedience to authorities to the next fascist book reading.

[Canajew]

What is the difference between what you are saying and telling black people they had to behave themselves and sit quiet because an all white southern US jury or judge back in the 1920s said they were not allowed to do various things?

Natural rights are natural rights, and self defence is a natural right.

As for the "occupied territories" you will note the dearth of analysis in the decision with respect to that as well.

There was no argument on point, and certainly no complete flushing out of both sides' positions, but the fact that the lands were part of the mandate and that they never attained sovereign status post-1948 (being occupied by states that were not realted to the mandate), and given the Israeli claim was never legally extinguished and the Palestinaisn had a claim as inhabitants but not as state actors, the land was legally disputed. A court that provides no a analysis and does not even address these issues (just like they don't address terrorism) is entitled to no deference, especially where appointees are drawn from among the least free and least unbiased judiciaries from around the world.

When France is attacked by non-state actors, will you be calling on France to obey the non-binding advisory opinion of the ICJ which states that states cannot exercize their right to self defence where the aggressors are non state actors?

[Gilgamesh]

Fortunately, the french don't know this forum and don't realize the extend of the hatred campaign they are the target of.
Suppose there was some MEMRI system translating all the hatred campaign here the results would be disastrous....


The best "hate frence campainger", in this forum is you Oliver.
The best "hate france campainger" in the world, is your president and his goverment.

Once you ignore the french bashings, you should have realize by now, what our real grievences with your nation.

1. Rise in anti semetism.
2. Anti Zionist policy - That includes: Israel bashing and matrial support to Israel's enemies in a state of war.
3. Unwillingness to take responsibility and remady the situation. Not by enforcement, not by delagalizations of Islamist organizations. For along time, France refused to acknowladge it has a problem.
4. France breaks the line in the war against terrorism

[medkorp]

Hi,

whatever the court said, if it is illegitimate and its judicial reasoning unsound, it means nothing, especially given the political agenda that is being pushed here.

This is your point of view, but for the most part of the world the statement of the justice cout is right, so you can keep crying, but there's only 6 states who agree with you !

If Israel has builded it security fence on her soil, there's no trouble, but you can't build something in another land and say: Hey it's for my protection !

So keep crying !
You can take your blind obedience to authorities to the next fascist book reading.
That's make me laugh, if i'm blind, there's more than 5 billiard of blinded people...You have nothing to say or as usual treat of me antisemitism or anti-american !

Medkorp

[Canajew]

Hey, i'm not a 'midget snapping at heels', i'm just trying to remind everyone that if they parade around charging themselves as 'civilized' individuals, it's hypocritical to fall into the practices you so obviously abhore, namely; petty, racist nationalism and fudged up thinking. Olivier, whilst a deranged character, unable to answer the most simple of questions and obviously a pro-Palestinian, anti-American, has a point when he says we descend into pointless and insignificant arguments when you reduce everything to France = bad Jew-hating frog-eaters, America = good, bold, Jew-loving noble crusaders. We all know that both of these assertions are not at all representative of either country. That's all i was trying to say.
Think big picture. On geo-political/startegic terms, do you believe France is a friend of Israel or a friend of Israel's enemies, and how active do you believe france both is and is prepared to be to advance the interests of Israel's enemies at Israel's expense.

This is not about petty nationalism or anything else, and I still have nothing agaist french people as individuals (just like most americans with the germans). This is about recognizing a major geo-political reality that has the possibility of seriously influencing the geopolitical realities for the next 20 years and beyond. Ignoring this for the sake of being PC and appearing conciliatory will only allow them to get away with more.

I am not nearly so simplistic to think everything about the US is good and everything about the french bad, and I never said that. Real life is complex. however, the US, for all its flaws, is not working on the side of those who would undo all of the advances we have made, both in Isarel and in the world generally, in the past 50 years. The French, on the other hand, with their pro arab dictator agenda and their interest in reducing american influence regardless of consequences for the rest of us, is positioning themselves to be a very strong, very active memmber of the enemy camp, and this needs to be dealt with and French influence needs to be minimized.

When talking big picture, whether I like individuals or not becomes irrelevant. The french need to be stopped, which is evident if you trace out where they are going and the logical consequences of that journey.

[tandem]

Hi,
hi :)

France is not an enemy of Israel, but as usual Israel wants to make no effort at all ! The security Fence was on the Palestinian territory, so this Fence was illegal !
uh WTF are you talking about?! the fence is not built on palestinian territory. the UN doesn't even recognize this territory belonging to the palestinians. according to UN resolution 242 the status of the territories is disputed and it's a dispute between israel, egypt, syria, and jordan, and NOT between israel and a palestinian leadership. in fact there is no resolution that says these territories have to be given to the palestinians, let alone that the disputed land actually belongs to the palestinians. and the so-called "green line" you're referring to is not a recognized border. resolution 242 calls for all sides in the 1967 conflict to negotiate final borders. the oslo accords with the palestinians require the same thing - that a final border between israel and "palestine" be negotiated. the palestinians are going around that. since according to all accounts it is the palestinians who left the diplomatic route to start yet another pointless intifada in order to terrorize israelis and jews, and this was even acknowledged by former US president bill clinton who went above and beyond trying to help the palestinians get their own state, israel is entitled to defend itself considering that in past when israel signed ceasefire agreements with the arabs there was never any peace. so, if it means building a fence with a buffer zone to protect itself then so be it! besides, if you look at the map of the completed fence and projected route in most areas it will be very close to the green line. only in some areas it will cut a little deep to protect israeli communities in the west bank and the israeli capital jerusalem. israel said all along the fence is not the final border and when true peace is established in the area they will consider re-routing it, similar to the way they did re-route the fence between israel and jordan when both countries signed a peace treaty in 1994.

so the main issue that europe says it has a problem with, that israel should build the wall on its own territory, is proving to be yet another dumb fabrication courtesy of the EU.

as for france not being an enemy of israel, while not all french are the same, most are piece of and so is their government.

So Israel can blame France, or Europe, but in the final, the international justice court said: Security Fence Illegal!
the ICJ provided an opinion, not a binding ruling. and when you look at the judges on the panel, including 2 arab judges and 5 european judges, it's not hard to figure out that no matter what israel said it never stood a chance. but even the EU said the ICJ should not be the one to rule on the fence and in fact most EU states were prepared to make that clear and abstain at the GA vote. it's just piece of garbage france once again showed what it is capable of, coercing other EU states to support yet another biased and politically motivated resolution against israel.

France is against Bush, not the americans, it's not the same thing ! We are against the Bush political technics !
reminds me of the arab rhetoric against israel and jews. most arab diplomats will tell you "we have nothing against jews in general, only the zionists!" yet when you read and see how jews are referred to in arab media, and what arab students are taught in school, that jews drink arab blood, that jews control the world, that jews are pigs and monkeys, that jews are subhumane, and other bull, it's quite obvious most arabs despise jews and not only zionists. same thing when you froggies say "we have nothing against americans in general, only the administration!" yet when you read and see all the anti-american propaganda in the french and even european press and how americans in general are demonized it's quite obvious that france, if not most of europe, really despise the americans. no matter who's in the white house there will always be something to pass judgement on and find some reason to hate those yanks. and to think that if it wasn't for america you frogs and half of europe would be speaking german today.

[Olivier]

Maybe it is right when it says 'muslims have no power in France'.

Again I need to frame this one twice. 'No power' is excessive but very little indeed.

This being said :
- muslims should have more power and certainly be better represented. We have no reason to discriminate against them
- the muslim community leaders are side by side with jewish leaders in protesting the current desecrations of graves. And jewish leaders are there when muslem graves are desecrated too.


Antisemistism in france today comes from unemployed youth of arab origin. Not from true muslem representatives (apart from a 'fringe'). And the local level many joint actions against antisemitism are taken by religious leaders.

[Canajew]

Again I need to frame this one twice. 'No power' is excessive but very little indeed.

This being said :
- muslims should have more power and certainly be better represented. We have no reason to discriminate against them
- the muslim community leaders are side by side with jewish leaders in protesting the current desecrations of graves. And jewish leaders are there when muslem graves are desecrated too.


Antisemistism in france today comes from unemployed youth of arab origin. Not from true muslem representatives (apart from a 'fringe'). And the local level many joint actions against antisemitism are taken by religious leaders.
love it how this guy can't see half of the things written in this thread and cannot see all of the meat that the discussions are revolving around

[Mediocrates]

The best "hate frence campainger", in this forum is you Oliver.
The best "hate france campainger" in the world, is your president and his goverment.

Oh no he's their Minister of Tourism. There are no Arabs in France and there is no antisemitism. But if you're interested, come to France and burn down some Jews......or else you are a warcriminal and we will got to UN to complain about you.

If ever there was a demonstration of why you should never bother to spend your tourism dollars in France, it's him. For all their whining and screaming about evil Jews, they do their blighted country more harm than anyone.


We have a phrase for them. "Camp Follower".

[Semsem]

>>Think big picture. On geo-political/startegic terms, do you believe France is a friend of Israel or a friend of Israel's enemies>>

France says it is a friend of the USA and of Israel and then they stab them both in the back. The fence is not permanent. If the Palistinians show they want peace the route can bechanged. The wall is an incentive for peace.

The EU because of French pressure refuse to list Hezbollah as a terrorist group. We don't need to take advice from France and European countries that killed Jews for 2,000 years.

[Semsem]

<<The best "hate frence campainger", in this forum is you Oliver.
The best "hate france <<

France supports Arafat and Hezbollah. France has Jewish blood on its hands. You are correct Oliver is the Hate France poster boy.

[medkorp]

Hi,
hi :)


uh WTF are you talking about?! the fence is not built on palestinian territory. the UN doesn't even recognize this territory belonging to the palestinians. according to UN resolution 242 the status of the territories is disputed and it's a dispute between israel, egypt, syria, and jordan, and NOT between israel and a palestinian leadership. in fact there is no resolution that says these territories have to be given to the palestinians, let alone that the disputed land actually belongs to the palestinians. and the so-called "green line" you're referring to is not a recognized border. resolution 242 calls for all sides in the 1967 conflict to negotiate final borders.

The fence is builded on some part of the Palestinian soil, if you doesn't know that, try to read another newspaper !

For the resolution 242, as usual, what you say is: Why occupied territories, Palestine doesn't exist so how it could be possible ? Pure propaganda !

Even if the Palestinian state is not created, all the world know about them, about their desire to make their home here, and as you, they have the right to have an homeland ! So stop saying maybe it's soil is to Egypt or another states, it's belong to the Palestinian people !

the oslo accords with the palestinians require the same thing - that a final border between israel and "palestine" be negotiated. the palestinians are going around that. since according to all accounts it is the palestinians who left the diplomatic route to start yet another pointless intifada in order to terrorize israelis and jews, and this was even acknowledged by former US president bill clinton who went above and beyond trying to help the palestinians get their own state,

We will never agree on the reason of the second intifada, for me it's due to sharon trip to the mosque place (with 2000 cops) and for you it's only arafat fault !

And Bill Clinton and Barak can always say: it's Arafat fault, there's different point of view :

Fictions About the Failure at Camp David

WASHINGTON — A year ago this week, President Bill Clinton, Prime Minister Ehud Barak of Israel and the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat gathered at Camp David for what, in retrospect, many consider a turning point in Israeli-Palestinian relations. From right to left, hawks to doves, comes unusual harmony of opinion both here and in Israel: Camp David is said to have been a test that Mr. Barak passed and Mr. Arafat failed. Offered close to 99 percent of their dreams, the thinking goes, the Palestinians said no and chose to hold out for more. Worse, they did not present any concession of their own, adopting a no-compromise attitude that unmasked their unwillingness to live peacefully with a Jewish state by their side.

I was at Camp David, a member of the small American peace team, and I, too, was frustrated almost to the point of despair by the Palestinians' passivity and inability to seize the moment. But there is no purpose — and considerable harm — in adding to their real mistakes a list of fictional ones. Here are the most dangerous myths about the Camp David summit.

Myth 1: Camp David was an ideal test of Mr. Arafat's intentions.

Mr. Arafat told us on numerous occasions that he had not wanted to go to Camp David. He thought that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators had not sufficiently narrowed the gaps separating their positions before the summit, and once there, he made clear in his comments that he felt both isolated from the Arab world and alienated by the close Israeli-American partnership. Moreover, the summit occurred at a low point in Mr. Arafat's relationship with Mr. Barak — the man with whom he was supposed to strike a historic deal. A number of Israeli commitments, including a long-postponed Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank and the transfer to Palestinian control of villages abutting Jerusalem, remained unfulfilled, and Mr. Arafat believed that Mr. Barak was simply trying to skirt his obligations. It also took a genuine leap of faith — for Mr. Barak as for the United States — to imagine that the 100-year conflict between Jews and Palestinians living in this region, with roots going back thousands of years more and tens of thousands of victims along the way, could be resolved in a fortnight without any of the core issues — territory, refugees, or the fate of Jerusalem — having previously been discussed by the leaders.

Myth 2: Israel's offer met most if not all of the Palestinians' legitimate aspirations.

Yes, what was put on the table was more far-reaching than anything any Israeli leader had discussed in the past — whether with the Palestinians or with Washington. But it was not the dream offer it has been made out to be, at least not from a Palestinian perspective.

To accommodate the settlers, Israel was to annex 9 percent of the West Bank; in exchange, the new Palestinian state would be granted sovereignty over parts of Israel proper, equivalent to one-ninth of the annexed land. A Palestinian state covering 91 percent of the West Bank and Gaza was more than most Americans or Israelis had thought possible, but how would Mr. Arafat explain the unfavorable 9-to-1 ratio in land swaps to his people?

In Jerusalem, Palestine would have been given sovereignty over many Arab neighborhoods of the eastern half and over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City. While it would enjoy custody over the Haram al Sharif, the location of the third- holiest Muslim shrine, Israel would exercise overall sovereignty over this area, known to Jews as the Temple Mount. This, too, was far more than had been thinkable only a few weeks earlier, and a very difficult proposition for the Israeli people to accept. But how could Mr. Arafat have justified to his people that Israel would retain sovereignty over some Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, let alone over the Haram al Sharif? As for the future of refugees — for many Palestinians, the heart of the matter — the ideas put forward at Camp David spoke vaguely of a "satisfactory solution," leading Mr. Arafat to fear that he would be asked to swallow an unacceptable last-minute proposal.

Myth 3: The Palestinians made no concession of their own.

Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem — neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel — not Anwar el- Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria — ever came close to even considering such compromises.

If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality.

The facts do not indicate, however, any lack of foresight or vision on the part of Ehud Barak. He had uncommon political courage as well. But the measure of Israel's concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point; it must be how far it has moved toward a fair solution.

The Palestinians did not meet their historic responsibilities at the summit either. I suspect they will long regret their failure to respond to President Clinton — at Camp David and later on — with more forthcoming and comprehensive ideas of their own.

Finally, Camp David was not rushed. It was many things — inadequately prepared for, perhaps; too informal, possibly; lacking proper fall-back options, without a doubt — but premature it was not. By the spring of 2000, every serious Israeli, Palestinian and American analyst was predicting an outbreak of Palestinian violence absent a major breakthrough in the peace process. The Oslo process had run its natural course; if anything, tackling the sensitive final status issues came too late, not too soon.



The gloss that is put on the past matters. The way the two sides choose to view yesterday largely will determine how they choose to behave tomorrow. And, if unchallenged, their respective interpretations will gradually harden into divergent versions of reality and unassailable truths — that Yasir Arafat is incapable of reaching a final agreement, for example, or that Israel is intent on perpetuating an oppressive regime. As the two sides continue to debate what went wrong at Camp David, it is important that they get the lessons right.

Robert Malley was special assistant for Arab-Israeli affairs to President Bill Clinton from 1998 to 2001. He is joining the Council on Foreign Relations as a senior fellow.

Medkorp

[medkorp]

israel is entitled to defend itself considering that in past when israel signed ceasefire agreements with the arabs there was never any peace. so, if it means building a fence with a buffer zone to protect itself then so be it!
Yes, but on your soil !

besides, if you look at the map of the completed fence and projected route in most areas it will be very close to the green line. only in some areas it will cut a little deep to protect israeli communities in the west bank and the israeli capital jerusalem. israel said all along the fence is not the final border and when true peace is established in the area they will consider re-routing it, similar to the way they did re-route the fence between israel and jordan when both countries signed a peace treaty in 1994.

By now, the security fence has some structure in the palestinian soil ? Good, but don't say, well don't worry, it's just a bit of your territories ! Ah but, we don't know if it's your soil (resolution 242), so you have no existence for the moment !

After say: the fence isn't a border, we will draw back after peace will be here...

Even a children will laugh !

so the main issue that europe says it has a problem with, that israel should build the wall on its own territory, is proving to be yet another dumb fabrication courtesy of the EU.

It's the true trouble, Israel has build some part of the fence on the palestinian side ! It may mean nothing for you, but for the rest of the world...Oooops sorry the rest of the world, less 6 states (true democracy of course)

the ICJ provided an opinion, not a binding ruling. and when you look at the judges on the panel, including 2 arab judges and 5 european judges, it's not easy to figure out that no matter what israel said it never stood a chance.
Of course, each time that Europe can do something wrong for Israel, they did...

More seriously, it's not the same thing with eu UN council ? With the FMI, the World Bank and the OMC, each of them doesn't have a single arab or black member...

But do you ear something about that ?

but even the EU said the ICJ should not be the one to rule on the fence and in fact most EU states were prepared to make that clear and abstain at the GA vote. it's just piece of garbage france once again showed what it is capable of, coercing other EU states to support yet another biased and politically motivated resolution against israel.

Poor Israelians people tricked by France..
If Israel doesn't want such matter with the most part of the world, she have to obey to all the standards that's other nations have also !

That mean, obey UN resolution ! So cry it wouldn't change anything, Europe and France make not biased information as Usa or Israel !

reminds me of the arab rhetoric against israel and jews. most arab diplomats will tell you "we have nothing against jews in general, only the zionists!" yet when you read and see how jews are referred to in arab media, and what arab students are taught in school, that jews drink arab blood, that jews control the world, that jews are pigs and monkeys, that jews are subhumane, and other bull, it's quite obvious most arabs despise jews and not only zionists.

This propaganda is the same as your when your telling your view about the 242 UN resolution ! Most of the arabs leader don't care about Israel, they care about the money they will earn by all the means !

And you're talking about arab media, but do you know them ? There's more than 150 newspapers just in the arab world, and each of them as his own opinion ! Just try to read some Algerian newspapers you'll be amazed !

And for the media propaganda, no one is stronger than America, do you remember foxtv and all the media with saddam WMD ? Do you know The wordl by Bush ?

same thing when you froggies say "we have nothing against americans in general, only the administration!" yet when you read and see all the anti-american propaganda in the french and even european press and how americans in general are demonized it's quite obvious that france, if not most of europe, really despise the americans. no matter who's in the white house there will always be something to pass judgement on and find some reason to hate those yanks. and to think that if it wasn't for america you frogs and half of europe would be speaking german today.

If you doesn't understand the basic things, like even if i like my father, i'm not him !

French people don't like the American administration, if you think that's all americans, what can i do for you ? Continue to think that you are a poor guy, who nobody understand...

If america doesn't have helped Europe, we will all speak German, thanks !

But if you think, because you have helped me in the past, i will give you, everything you want, you're totally wrong !

Medkorp

[Semsem]

>>That mean, obey UN resolution ! So cry it wouldn't change anything, Europe and France make not biased information as Usa or Israel !>>

If you think we will take advice on how to save Jewish lives from Europe whose "national sport" was to murder Jews, you have another thing coming. By the way how are the "remaining" Terminals at Charles De Gaulle doing?

[Semsem]

>>Poor Israelians people tricked by France..<<

Vous etes des imbeciles.

[Semsem]

<<Even a children will laugh !<<

These French posters seem 2 have a lot of time to respond. I wonder whether Medkorp is really Olivier or his Siamese twin. By his viscious, aggressive tone it is pretty obvious the guy is a raving, ranting antisemite like all the French posters on this forum.

Certainly gives a very bad impression of France. Hope your last remaining airport terminals are now in good shape at De Gaulle Airport by the way.

[Canajew]

medkit seems to be just another trumpet of the machinations of their govenrment and media and the tripe they have fed them for so long. Arafat is a saint to be taken at his word, everything that the Palestinians want is a given and cannot posibly be in dispute (like, for example, the fact that they really are not ENTITLED to 100% of the lands they claim, even though france is pretending like they are - 242 had nothing to do with "Palestine") while anything that is said not to their liking is discounted and ignored by pointing to one big lie or another on the other side.

The palestinains were made an offer in 2000. They launched a PRE-PLANNED war that was not contingent upon the visit by a member of the opposition ot sovereign Jewish territory where Arab palestinaisn are given more rights than any jews anywhere in the Arab world, including Israeli jews andf their access to religious sites illegally seized by the Arabs in 1948, and as a result they are entitled to less than they were before.

France seeks to reward terrorism by iognoring it occurred and trying to say that not only does it not have consequences for those who launched it, but that they are now entitled to MORE than they were under 242 and all of the plans and outlines and drafts and the rest.

So in short, you can take your twisted propagandized view of the world and shove it. We all know the implications of your position and what it means for Israel's chances of long term survival, and just because you do not care about that doesn't mean we shouldn't either.

If international law truly does not allow this, it is wrong and needs to be changed.

Just because the law says something doesn't make it right. Like prison sentences for pot possession for example.

You can make your arguments on authority all you want. We have no respect for your manipulated and flawed authorities, and come to think of it you really don't either, when their positions do not fall in line with your own interests, and so you can keep on keeping on like they said anything improtant or meaningful and we will continue to try to prevent you from undermining the foundations upon which the free world is built and attempt to minimize the influence you have on the fate of the world.

France truly is among the most dangerous countries in the world today, and a comparison of the virtol of the french on this board to the vitrol that comes out of societies where antisemitism and hatred of others is pounded into the education of young people since birth will show you that.

[Mira~]

Hi,


The fence is builded on some part of the Palestinian soil, if you doesn't know that, try to read another newspaper !

For the resolution 242, as usual, what you say is: Why occupied territories, Palestine doesn't exist so how it could be possible ? Pure propaganda !

Even if the Palestinian state is not created, all the world know about them, about their desire to make their home here, and as you, they have the right to have an homeland ! So stop saying maybe it's soil is to Egypt or another states, it's belong to the Palestinian people !



We will never agree on the reason of the second intifada, for me it's due to sharon trip to the mosque place (with 2000 cops) and for you it's only arafat fault !

And Bill Clinton and Barak can always say: it's Arafat fault, there's different point of view :



Medkorp

I think all people have the right to self-determination, including the Palestinians, so what you are saying is little more than incendiary garbage. The issue once involved what compromises needed to be made to get Palestinians a viable State and Israelis the security they needed to live in a relative peace with them as neighbors. You and your leaders don't seem terribly interested in a critical assessment of what that means. I have travelled the green line and visited Israeli military outposts in the "occupied territories." You, I take it, have not. I don't know how many European autocrats have taken the same tour I did, or whether they simply choose to ignore what they have seen, but you do not give up a hilltop to your enemy when their villages are sometimes within shooting range (a couple hundred meters in some cases) from your villages. So when I hear the EU claim that they support Israeli security while at the same time declaring that the fence is illegal because it isn't built entirely within the 1949 armistice line (and Yes! that land has been acknowledged by all the world bodies as disputed territory and even by the Palestinians, which is why there was a Camp David in the first place, so that they could n*e*g*o*t*i*a*t*e a final agreement) I know that you are all either naive or you want Israel's enemies to win. Have you no clue what is happening within the Palestinian areas? Whatever you do, do not talk about Israeli security because it is without a shadow of a doubt clear to me that European leaders do not care at all about Israeli security. This is all geopolitics and if that "shiitty little country" gets sacrificed in the process, then good riddance, right? Because that is where we are headed. And we all know it!

[TDidier]

>>Poor Israelians people tricked by France..<<

Vous etes des imbeciles.

Mais des imbéciles qui savent faire la différence entre victimes et bourreaux, quel que soit leur bord...
Imbéciles et heureux. :cool:


Poor israelian people under the reign of violence and the dictature from those who just want to rebuild the temple...

[Mediocrates]

woops!!! you used the same mangled noun os medkapo - you know you fritter away what legitimacy you think you have when you make sock puppets.

At least your medkapo personna sounds like a palestinian 'patriot', you're just a sad little man.

[ibrodsky]

Our French representatives claim the only problem with Israel's security fence is that it is built on "Palestinian soil." But to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and groups operating under Yaser Arafat, all of Jerusalem is "Palestinian soil."

Of course, our French participants have adopted the Israel-hating Arabs' arguments and strategy. Though Arab states repeatedly attacked Israel, support terrorism against Israeli civilians, and most still don't accept Israel's right to exist, they demand that Israel withdraw to the cease-fire line that existed prior to the '67 war. The real purpose of this demand is to cancel the penalty that the Arab states paid for trying to destroy Israel, make it much harder to defend Israel against further onslaught, and allow the Islamist savages to resume their mass murder attacks.

No one should be fooled by arguments about where the fence is built when the Palestinians have refused to negotiate and recognize borders. To hear a Chinese judge--whose own government mass murdered non-violent protestors in Tiananmen Square--drone for hours about "Palestinian human rights" is the height of hypocrisy. Sweep aside such hypocritical words and you'll find that this is really all about helping the Palestinians "defend" themselves through jihad-genocide. The location of the fence--which Israel promises is not permanent--is just an excuse to cover support for Arab terrorism.

Personally, I believe there are two reasons why France supports the Arab mass murderers. (And make no mistake, demanding Israel tear down a security fence that is clearly protecting Israeli children is saying loud and clear that the Arabs' land claims are more important than Israeli children's lives.) First, France is trying to ingratiate itself with oil-rich Arab dictators. Second, France imagines that by criticizing Israel it proves that it has outgrown the shame of collaborating with Nazi Germany.

But many of us know the truth is that France collaborated with Nazi Germany, then the totalitarian USSR, and now the Arab dictators and mass murderers. So by demanding that Israel tear down a temporary fence that saves Jewish children's lives, France is just being... France.

All decent people should boycott French products and businesses.

[TDidier]

woops!!! you used the same mangled noun os medkapo - you know you fritter away what legitimacy you think you have when you make sock puppets.

At least your medkapo personna sounds like a palestinian 'patriot', you're just a sad little man.

1.80m

[TDidier]

Our French representatives claim the only problem with Israel's security fence is that it is built on "Palestinian soil." But to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and groups operating under Yaser Arafat, all of Jerusalem is "Palestinian soil."



We don't care about hamas will, a good coordination between israeli and palestinian policies would be sufficient, but Sharon preferred to bomb palestinian police building...

[Canajew]

lol. funny. amazing how even recent hisotr can be altered and manipulated in such a fashion

[TDidier]

lol. funny. amazing how even recent hisotr can be altered and manipulated in such a fashion

Manipulated... Altred... But history is history and the reallity will be know by those you want to trust you.

Some of Sharon's first act as PM was to bomb palestinian police as retortion to terror act in Israel. Unproductive and criminal acts, against palestinians... and israelians who would support the result of palestinian police desorganisation... :mad:

[Semsem]

We don't care about hamas will, a good coordination between israeli and palestinian policies would be sufficient, but Sharon preferred to bomb palestinian police building...

Those Frogs refuse to have the EU put Hezbollah on the Terrorism list. This is because France is in bed with Syria and Lebanon.

[Semsem]

Des pretencieux con en plus.

[Canajew]

Manipulated... Altred... But history is history and the reallity will be know by those you want to trust you.

Some of Sharon's first act as PM was to bomb palestinian police as retortion to terror act in Israel. Unproductive and criminal acts, against palestinians... and israelians who would support the result of palestinian police desorganisation... :mad:that is what he did. You left out the fact that the PA police were both not preventing and tacitly and overtly helping the terrorists. Sharon figured by attacking evidences for statehood he could show the PA this was not a game and to reign in their terrorists. This is why the PA police, the helicopters and the rest were attacked. The fact that the PA was prepared to allow the destruction of all these institutions rather than stop terrorism and negotiate is just evidence that this Israeli strategy, while not correct, was still necessary, as leaving Arafat;'s apparatus in tact would only have allowed him to better utilize it in his war of terrorism against Isareli civlians.

Your ignoring this is the rewriting of history I am talking about. Events happened, but you recast them to be something they patently were not, saying Sharon intended to bring about all the results of Palestinian corrupt, autocratiuc rule focussed towards waging a genocidal war of terrorism against Israeli civilians.

When will the French, or have the french, ever paid attention to this little but important tidbit?

[NewsGuy]

France is not an enemy of Israel, but as usual Israel wants to make no effort at all ! The security Fence was on the Palestinian territory, so this Fence was illegal !

So Israel can blame France, or Europe, but in the final, the international justice court said: Security Fence Illegal !


Not so. The fence was constructed on disputed territory, not Arab territory. That's the fundamental mistake of the Court for International Injustice.

And in any event, France and the rest of Europe should be ashamed to promote any UN resolution that ignores the elephant in the living room, which is Palestinian terrorism. By disregarding Palestinian terrorism and striking at Israel, France has shown itself to be an enemy not only of Israel but of morality and decency in general.

And more than that, France continues to legitimize Muslim terrorism, which only encourages more of the same.


Don't be so silly, France was against a war without a true reason, not the ADM lies ! But of course it's best for you to say anti-american...
Contrary to what you claim, WMD was not the only reason stated by Bush. There was also that "small" matter of 500,000 dead Iraqis, many of whom gassed by Saddam and the rest simply murdered and dumped in trenches.

Genocide is, as we can see in Darfur, not a real concern of France, but it is a valid reason to remove a brutal dictator.

The arab population in France is less than 10 percent ! And the antisemitism in France is not high, if it was really an antisemitic, the statistic of alya will be much more great, but it's the same since 4 or 5 years...I think the Arabs are closer to 13 or 15% nationally, but maybe around 25 or 30% in some major areas of France, where they have imposed their culture on their neighbors and been guilty of thousands of reported and unreported anti-Semitic incidents.

France is against Bush, not the americans, it's not the same thing ! We are against the Bush political technics !
Maybe so. But I doubt it.

My impression as an American is that France hates our culture, our food, our language, our leadership and our allies.

[medkorp]

It's truly incredible how stupidities haunt this forum !

You can have a problem with Solona, but make all Spanish antisemite...

A great BRAVO !

Medkorp


Solana is a Spaniard. In my opinion he is an antisemite. And most Spanish are.

[Mediocrates]

Most French are fools based on the people here. I guess your reality depends on the sample size. :p

Anyway you don't have to respond to this with 2.7E5 exclamation points. I already have you in the ignore file.

[medkorp]

Hi,
>>Think big picture. On geo-political/startegic terms, do you believe France is a friend of Israel or a friend of Israel's enemies>>

France says it is a friend of the USA and of Israel and then they stab them both in the back. The fence is not permanent. If the Palistinians show they want peace the route can bechanged. The wall is an incentive for peace.

France is a friend to America and Israel ! But France can have a different point of view of USA or Israel ! And it's not because we not agreed, that will make us an enemy !

As Solana said: Europe wouldn't have say a word, if the fence have been set on the Israeli border ! The same for the rest of the world !

The EU because of French pressure refuse to list Hezbollah as a terrorist group. We don't need to take advice from France and European countries that killed Jews for 2,000 years.
So stupid, so we don't need the advice of american who have massacred Indians ? You are only a blind men, only seeing Jews suffering !

Medkorp

[medkorp]

Hi,

Make me laugh, do you really think that your biased opinion will be so terrible for me ?

Do you really think, that your petty try of humour can make me sick ?

I'm here in IsraelForum.com since a long time now, so even if i doesn't write before, i knew you and the others on this forum !

So you can call me Medkapo or whatever nicknames you can found, it doesn't change anything to the real trouble ! The Palestinian must have their own state !

Medkorp

woops!!! you used the same mangled noun os medkapo - you know you fritter away what legitimacy you think you have when you make sock puppets.

At least your medkapo personna sounds like a palestinian 'patriot', you're just a sad little man.

[medkorp]

Salut !

Prétencieux ? Certainement, seulement nous au moins nous avons la correction de dire bonjour lorsque nous commençons notre prose !

Tandis que votre suffisance et votre incorrection, vous montrent sous votre plus mauvais jour !

Ah, je ne connais pas Olivier et donc, je ne suis pas lui ! En tout cas, je suis entièrement d'accord avec eux (Olivier, Tdidier, et bien d'autres qui ont le courage de supporté le coté modéré de ce forum..)

Medkorp
Des pretencieux con en plus.

[Oh Jerusalem]

The Palestinian must have their own state !
It's called Jordan.

[medkorp]

Hi,

Wrong ! Jordan is a state by herself !

So, Palestinian need to have their own state !

Could you tell me who you are, for going against that ?

Medkorp

It's called Jordan.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Wrong ! Jordan is a state by herself !
Wrong! Jordan is an arbitrarily defined country (with thanks to the British), with a made-up monarchy (how many dynasties ago did they begin?), with no prior ancient history as a separate state.

And surprise! The vast majority of its population are Palestinians!

So, Palestinian need to have their own state !
Yes. Jordan. :D
Could you tell me who you are, for going against that ?
A Jew, living in the Jewish land of Israel.

And just who do you think you are?!

[Mediocrates]

He's a French Arab Microsoft employee like he said. He is a fool and a fascist in at least 3 different ways. :p

<insert a large # of '!' here>

[Canajew]

Hi,


France is a friend to America and Israel ! But France can have a different point of view of USA or Israel ! And it's not because we not agreed, that will make us an enemy !

As Solana said: Europe wouldn't have say a word, if the fence have been set on the Israeli border ! The same for the rest of the world !


So stupid, so we don't need the advice of american who have massacred Indians ? You are only a blind men, only seeing Jews suffering !

Medkorp
Whether France is a friend or enemy of the US is a different issue. With respect ot Israel, France has taken the side of its enemies and has given them both passive and extremely active support in the diplomatic arena, which is the primary arena for the Palestinians' gains in this conflict. France has adopted a pursuit of interests that necessarily entails harming Israeli interests, and vital ones at that. How could you possibly say France is a friend of Israel? On what grounds do you base this assertion? On their politcial positions? On the attitudes of its citizenry? On common interests?

France is a great friend of Israel's enemies, and has now gone to the wall several times to push forward Palestinian interests and Palestinian efforts to make Israel more vunerable to attack and to make sure the Palestinian population becomes more radicalized over time. It tried to keep Arafat in the picture notwithstanbding his complicity in atatcks agaianst Israeli civilians, and it has continuously tried to get Israel to pre-commit, or be forced ex ante, to give up more in a final agreement than is required under international resolutions and common sense.

France is clearly no friend of Israel, and as a friend of israel's enemies, is really an enemy, even though there are no bombs being dropped by the French (they just fund Palestinian bombers through the PA that they know is corrupt and tainted by terrorism, which isn't much better)

[Canajew]

Hi,

Make me laugh, do you really think that your biased opinion will be so terrible for me ?

Do you really think, that your petty try of humour can make me sick ?

I'm here in IsraelForum.com since a long time now, so even if i doesn't write before, i knew you and the others on this forum !

So you can call me Medkapo or whatever nicknames you can found, it doesn't change anything to the real trouble ! The Palestinian must have their own state !

Medkorp
but who are you to dictate the borders of that state, where that state was never soverieng before, the Palesitnians currently dwell on less than 10% of the actual territory, and the "borders" you speak of are both nothinbg of the sort and, as armistance lines forged in an artificial cease-fire, are particularly unstable as parts are very vulnerable. All this will do is make it mroe difficult for the moderates to control the extremists within Palestinian society who dream of destroying Israel. the more feasible you make this dream, the more likey they will try to realize it, and therefore the more aggresive Israel must be ex ante. Therefore your solution only makes real peace LESS likely rather than more. that's one of the problems with European "principles". They are neither just, nor fair, nor particularly suited to achieving the results you say you want.

[Mediocrates]

In 1951 the great grandfather of the current Jordanian king was murdered at the al Aqsa by a radical Palestinian because that king dared even raise the issue of equitable discussions between two new countries Israel and Jordan. Since then the radical position had become the one people listen to. Not the Jordanian one and not the Israeli one. The voice of the assassins is the one.

They have a state. Some of them didn't want it and decided to become refugees in their own country. Now Jordan, the Palestinian country is about 25% made of Palestinian refugees in their own country for 3,4,5 generations. And they surrounded by other Palestinians. The rest of the world calls this "living in a bad neighborhhod". By 1970 they got tired of it not being a radical PLO governed country so they rose up and waged war. They lost and fled across the Jordan river to lick their wounds. They should have stayed in Jordan.

They were offered another state and didn't want that one either but decided to be squatters anyway. Ever the victim. Boo Hoo.

Now they want a third state, but rest assured they won't take that one either. They don't really want a state, they want to complain about it, that is all. It's called manufacturing a dispute to distract your miserable population from noticing what corrupt monsters you are. The only kind of state they could conceivably get and accept is one just like the conditions they have now. A terrorist entity ruled by gangsters using violence and intimidation on their own people. I say they just declare that, hoist the flag, print Arafat's face on the money and call it the Palestinian People's Republic & Garbage Dump. Buy 2 chickens get one free.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Buy 2 chickens get one free.
After such an offer, Herbert Hoover's lost my vote!

[Olivier]

He's a French Arab Microsoft employee like he said. He is a fool and a fascist in at least 3 different ways.Ever though about packing your belongings and leaving this forum? You are just a shame.

[MichaelC]

Ever though about packing your belongings and leaving this forum? You are just a shame.
And yet, were we allowed to have a thread on who should pack and go, you or Mediocrates, the results would be a utter landslide in favoring of retaining a person who has proven his value here time and again while throwing you unceremoniously from the ramparts.

[Canajew]

And yet, were we allowed to have a thread on who should pack and go, you or Mediocrates, the results would be a utter landslide in favoring of retaining a person who has proven his value here time and again while throwing you unceremoniously from the ramparts.
Are you off his ignore? Mazel Tov. Must be all tingly and such inside

[MichaelC]

Are you off his ignore? Mazel Tov. Must be all tingly and such inside
No, I'm still on his pathetic little list. But as Medio has indicated, the guy does a lot of peeking.

If I thought for a minute that I was not being abrasive enough to remain on his "I'm afraid to face them list", I would most definitely post something vile and nasty to regain my integrity.

[Canajew]

No, I'm still on his pathetic little list. But as Medio has indicated, the guy does a lot of peeking.

If I thought for a minute that I was not being abrasive enough to remain on his "I'm afraid to face them list", I would most definitely post something vile and nasty to regain my integrity.
yes. I've done that several times now myself. Good times.

[medkorp]

Hi,

Do you know that you have made an error to your nickname ?

Yes it's not Mediocrates but just mediocre...

If you have a doubt, just see what you have write, a true racist !

Medkorp
He's a French Arab Microsoft employee like he said. He is a fool and a fascist in at least 3 different ways. :p

<insert a large # of '!' here>

[medkorp]

Hi,

but who are you to dictate the borders of that state, where that state was never soverieng before, the Palesitnians currently dwell on less than 10% of the actual territory, and the "borders" you speak of are both nothinbg of the sort and, as armistance lines forged in an artificial cease-fire, are particularly unstable as parts are very vulnerable.

Make me laugh ! And you who are YOU to tell with no real borders, this is Israel and the rest we don't know ! For the moment there's no border at all for Israel ! So it's normal that this temporary borders are instable !

All this will do is make it mroe difficult for the moderates to control the extremists within Palestinian society who dream of destroying Israel.
The number of extremist is far less of what you think ! The number of terrorist attack show this, before the security fence was created !

the more feasible you make this dream, the more likey they will try to realize it, and therefore the more aggresive Israel must be ex ante. Therefore your solution only makes real peace LESS likely rather than more. that's one of the problems with European "principles". They are neither just, nor fair, nor particularly suited to achieving the results you say you want.
So you simply ask me to tell to the arabs, hey you're dreaming never Israel will accept a Palestinian state by her side, so if you don't want to die, you have to accept that !

Make me laugh, Arabs have the right to have their state, no matter what you think or want ! The UN has already accepted that, Usa too, only Israel try to change this ! Un has gived a state to the Israeli, the same has to be done for the Palestinians !

So stop you propaganda and begin to open your eyes !

Medkorp

[Canajew]

Make me laugh ! And you who are YOU to tell with no real borders, this is Israel and the rest we don't know ! For the moment there's no border at all for Israel ! So it's normal that this temporary borders are instable !
I never said everything is all Israel. That is not my assertion, merely that the "borders" to which you refer are nothing of the sort, both functionally and as a matter of law. Read the armistance agreements. Read the Security counsel's advisory resolutions (they were passed under a different title than the binding resolutions passed against Iraq, for example). Understand that just becuase you want an outcome does not imply that it is an entitlement. Just like Israeli claims to the whole of Judea and Samaria and Gaza. Israel has a claim to them, possibly the best legal claim, but given the right of self-determination of the local inhabitants, this claim is vitiated.

You seem to only see things in black and white. Life is nuance.

With respect to instability, you misunderstand. The armistance lines were not the result of exhaustion, digging in and standstill between the Israel and the Arab states that set out to destroy it. They were a result of an internationally imposed cease fire. What that meant was that the lines were frozen at a time where they were not particularly stable - front lines were wildly disjointed, clealry indefensible positions became dividing lines. What this means is that Israel, if it pulkls back to these lines, would be particularly vulnerable, while it would not be nearly as vulnerable with minor modifications to bring the borders in line with topographic and military considerations.

And strengthening Israel's defensive position will only provide additional deterrence to Israel's enemies who seek to destroy it (i.e. the Palestinian authority and its people). Now throw in some game theory. If you are more likely to attack, I need to be more active ex ante to disuade you from attacking. This may likely take the form of more aggresive military responses to provocation, which is likely to create a greater conflaguration. Couple this with the need of the palestinian "moderates" (i.e. pragmatists) who do not want further violence with the majority who do (you say extremists are a small fringe, but you will not sell anyone here on such claptrap and obvious falsehood), and there is solid justification, from a moral and "give peace a chance" point of view, to shift the lines of division to a place which provides the maximal dfeterrence against further aggresion by the Arabs, which, if you will recall, is what led to the "occupation" in the first place.


The number of extremist is far less of what you think ! The number of terrorist attack show this, before the security fence was created !
don't be a fool. The number of attacks is a function of many variables, the degree of extremism is only 1. israeli counter terrorism operations were quite intensive even beofre building the wall, and this would need to be accounted for in your analysis. Israel has faced, over the past 4 years, tens of thousands of attacks, with specific warnings of attacks ranging between 30 and 50 at any particular time over that period. It is not Palestinian motivation that is lacking, but resources and ability. The number of extremists is far far more than you would lead us to believe. Polls show most palestinians support suicide bombings and continued attacks against Israel, even if Israel withdrew from the west bank and gaza. Couple this with the rabid Jew hatred that is taught in school, the cult of death shaheed worship instilled in children from infancy through the PA media and Palestinian society, and the mainstream position of Hamas in palestinain society and your assertion above is exposed as the obvious falsehood that it is.

The reason the palestinains do not have a state today is because of their extremists, and they will continue to be the reason that Palestinains are suffering so much in the present war that they launched. Their extremists are really their mainstream, and their moderates are "collaborators" to anyone who doesn't like what they have to say about compromise and peaceable co-existence.


So you simply ask me to tell to the arabs, hey you're dreaming never Israel will accept a Palestinian state by her side, so if you don't want to die, you have to accept that !
not what I'm saying. What I'm saying, and I'll spell it out in the hope you won't misinterpret or misrepresent, is that the Palestinaisn are entitled to a state, but only a peaceable, demilitirized one, and only when they drop their goal and their efforts to destroy Israel. That state should not be based on armistance lines between Israel and waring Arab nations that OCCUPIED those "Palestinian" lands without protest, but rather on functional concerns - demographics, security, deterrence, and showing the Palestinaisn that they are now entitled to LESS than they were at Camp David and Taba because they launched and embraced a war of terrorism directed against civilians (actions have consequences, after all). If the line on which the security fence is being built is deemed the ultimate border, the Palestinains would not receive less than they are entitled to as of right. maybe they could have gotten more in negotiations, but they chose war instead, and so they must bear the consequences.


Make me laugh, Arabs have the right to have their state, no matter what you think or want !
sure, but why are they entitled to the borders that you have chosen and that they have tried to seize by war?


The UN has already accepted that, Usa too, only Israel try to change this ! Un has gived a state to the Israeli, the same has to be done for the Palestinians !
the UN did not really give a state to Israel. Israel was a functional independent state even before independence was declared. It had all the incidences of state - education system, defence, civil institutions, governance structures, social organizations - all the things a functioning civil society needs to act as a viable, indpeendent state. the Palestinains have none of these things, because they did not invest in their development, and instead used the Oslo period to radicalize the population and gird for the war that they launched at the time of their choosing (whatever you want to say, I know this war was not a "spontaneous" outbreak as your propagandists would assert - lies only work on the ignorant and those who wish to be deceived). The Palestinaisn do not need a state "given to them" as much as they need to actually turn their attention to state-building. Then they will be entitled to a state far more than they are now. And note the assertion they are entitled to a state does not shed any light at all on what the borders of that state ought to be. Why not just around their population centres and places they dwell? Why on strategically important barren lands?


So stop you propaganda and begin to open your eyes !
you first. I am not a propagandist. I see all sides and filter through the tripe as best I can. Do I make mistakes, sure. But I will always try to shift my world view to make it consistent with the available information. It would be nice if you attempted to do likewise. Your assertions about this conflict are mere parrotings of the Palestinian propagandists. You want to rely on international law, fine, but investigate the validity of that law and the process by which it was detemrined. You want to assert the Palestinains are entitled to something, fine, but base it on fact, not desire, and where international institutions are corrupted do not rely on their opinions and do not misrepresent their power to make binding decisions.

Regards

[RichardP]

Excellent retort, Canajew, I hope it registered... though somehow, I don’t think so.

[Semsem]

<<Make me laugh, Arabs have the right to have their state<<

The Arabs already will have France as their State so stop complaining.

>>no matter what you think or want !<<

Exactly I agree. No matter what you Frogs want, the Arabs will have France as their official State.

<<The UN has already accepted that, Usa too, only Israel try to change this ! Un has gived a state to the Israeli<<

Yes but Israeli state does not go around destroying other States. When your Arab brothers accept not to blow up Jews and live peacefully your brothers will have a 2nd State.

<<So stop you propaganda and begin to open your eyes !<<

You Frogs should stop pushing us Jews around. Vichy is over now. Behave youself.

[Semsem]

The Palistinians do not have a State because of the French who excite them to kill Jews. Remember Chirac told Arafat not to accept the Barak Peace Plan and to ask for more?

[David_in_NYC]

The Palestinians already have a state; it's called Jordan.

The rest of the Arabs - culturally indistinguishable from the Palis - have another 21 states to call their own.

What is the justification for creating yet another dysfunctional Arab terror state (if not the obvious, as a means to kill Jews)?

[medkorp]

Hi,

I never said everything is all Israel. That is not my assertion, merely that the "borders" to which you refer are nothing of the sort, both functionally and as a matter of law. Read the armistance agreements. Read the Security counsel's advisory resolutions (they were passed under a different title than the binding resolutions passed against Iraq, for example). Understand that just becuase you want an outcome does not imply that it is an entitlement. Just like Israeli claims to the whole of Judea and Samaria and Gaza. Israel has a claim to them, possibly the best legal claim, but given the right of self-determination of the local inhabitants, this claim is vitiated.

You seem to only see things in black and white. Life is nuance.

Israelis have already a state, a state who was offered by the UN and not any others powers ! Israel even if she desagree with the UN has already her borders, the UN resolution talk about le green line of 1967 !

But, number of Israellis says: we can said this part of the land is Palestinians or any other nations, so untill we know, it's at us !

Or Palestinian nation don't exist, so they can't have borders...usual propaganda...

With respect to instability, you misunderstand. The armistance lines were not the result of exhaustion, digging in and standstill between the Israel and the Arab states that set out to destroy it. They were a result of an internationally imposed cease fire. What that meant was that the lines were frozen at a time where they were not particularly stable - front lines were wildly disjointed, clealry indefensible positions became dividing lines. What this means is that Israel, if it pulkls back to these lines, would be particularly vulnerable, while it would not be nearly as vulnerable with minor modifications to bring the borders in line with topographic and military considerations.

I disagree, Israel have won this war, a long time ago now, so the green line is no more usefull, even if the Israelis go back to the 1967 borders, what will happen ? A Palestinian state with no power can harm you ?

The time, the palestinian people have their state, they will turn on their true troubles, not a war against Israel !

And strengthening Israel's defensive position will only provide additional deterrence to Israel's enemies who seek to destroy it (i.e. the Palestinian authority and its people).

Another lie ! The Palestinian authority and it's people have already accepted the Isrealis state, no matter what you say ! if you read the PLO chart by now, you will see the name of Israel, so enough cry about the PLO dark agenda !

http://www.pna.gov.ps/subject_details2.asp?DocId=1486

The PLO has accepted Israel a long time ago, but for political means, numbers of you, prefer tell a lie...

Now throw in some game theory. If you are more likely to attack, I need to be more active ex ante to disuade you from attacking. This may likely take the form of more aggresive military responses to provocation, which is likely to create a greater conflaguration. Couple this with the need of the palestinian "moderates" (i.e. pragmatists) who do not want further violence with the majority who do (you say extremists are a small fringe, but you will not sell anyone here on such claptrap and obvious falsehood), and there is solid justification, from a moral and "give peace a chance" point of view, to shift the lines of division to a place which provides the m