Nearly 360 attacks against Jews in France - Part 2 [Archive]

takeo

05-13-2002, 12:50 AM

i agree with belgium and evolution.
Yes, ok belgium, you're right about the flower power and Vietnam, but that seems to be a long time ago... Not only since 11/9 but since many years the us doesn't seem to care about victims on the other side, maybe since the us-media decided not to show any films anymore of victims at the other side???

Kinetic,

"The point is that Europe has steadily attempted to appease aggressors instead of stopping the aggression"

so what? The US has never stopped aggression either. by the way in many cases the us was the agressor without being attacked first. we deal with terrorism in two ways, trying to see the cause of this terrorism(unequality, national question,s etc. as in northern ireland) and second, if no other possibility is possible, fighting terror with counter-terror.

"Palestine is not actually a country, by definition. It is a territory that was gained by Israel in a war started by Arabs. Also Israel has not targeted civilians, as was the case in the former Yugoslavia. Which once again, the US had to step in to handle because of the appeasement tactics of the EU. "

LOL, just look on the websites of HRW or AI to see a nice report of many israeli war crimes in the past and present. And 1967 was a war started by Israel by "pre-emptive strikes" by the way, and you can not GAIN a territory by international law, even if you win a war.

"Haven't you noticed yet, that history is written by the victors? If the US had not reconquered your country for your grandfather, Nazi Germany would have written what little history you know. "

that's right, but than don't claim to be unbiased. By the way if the nazi's won the war i would have never been born.

"Prisons in the US and Israel are not inhumane. Criminals get more criminal as you put it, from socializing with other criminals. That whole sharing of ideas thing. One last thought on prison.
IT'S PRISON, PEOPLE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO LIKE IT! "

OK, but you don't have to make it a hell either. in our prisons we have reconversion-programms so people can have a new chance when they come free.

"Who do you think reconverted Germany and Japan? The same country that has already budgeted 750 million dollars for this year alone to rebuild Afganistan. That is compassion, and the christian thing to do. "

LOL, as usual Europe has to pay the "reconstruction" in Afghanistan, while you guys payed the destruction... the us destroyed things in Afghanistan for over 50 billion $, so 750 million $ is peanuts. By the way about germany and Japan this had nothing to do with compassion but with real politics and cold war, they didn't want germany and japan to become communist sympatisers!

"Your last statement implies that you sanction the 11th of September attack on the United States. I find that quite repulsive. How exactly can you condone the deaths of over 3000 people who could have cared less about Islam/Muslims/Osama Bin Laden/the Mideast?"

If you read my posts carefully you should notice that i am not thinking at all that the attacks on 11/9 were ok, i said they were a reaction to us-policy in the world, but not a justified or legal reaction (as well as the suicide-bombings in israel against civilians are wrong but a reaction to israeli wrong policy)

"Takeo consistently mentions that the Palestinians are at war with Israel. If that is the case, then civilians are fair game for both sides. If Israel were to act in fashion similar to the Palestinians, Israel would roll into the Gaza Strip and begin blasting buildings and any visible person, without regard to age, gender or role in acts of terror. As any country would do during a war. Simply remember WWII for examples of this.
Or should young Jews attack Arabs in a similar fashion, because of their frustration with events in the holy land? Probably not, as half the Jews in France would be in French prisons, getting "reconverted"."

What do you think Sharon did in Jenin? But on the contrary to what you think this is not a legitimised way of having war but this are war-crimes, not any country would act like this in a war, just read the Geneva-conventions.
Jews in France don't do such things because they generally are very moderate and not very pro-israeli, at least most don't support the occupation-policy and know israel is to blame as well for th current problems.

L@mplighterM

05-17-2002, 03:42 PM

Left-wing extremists tried to storm Israeli embassy in London

By Sharon Sadeh, Ha'aretz Correspndent

Security forces turned back about 20 left-wing extremists who stormed the Israeli embassy in London on Monday and attempted to enter the building. The incident was reported on Friday because the embassy decided to try to keep the incident out of the press.

Scotland Yard said Friday that at 1:50 P.M. on Monday, British police were dispatched to the Israeli embassy when some 20 or more demonstrators attempted to scale the fence surrounding the compound. After police arrived, the demonstrators were alarmed and left the area. One man, in his twenties, received medical treatment at the scene. London police took no additional action in the matter.

Complete article:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165169&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

takeo

05-18-2002, 02:21 AM

that is not anti-semitism but antizionism or just against the current policy of the israeli government.

Morpheus

05-18-2002, 03:38 AM

Anti-semitism would be walking around with Swastika's. In Europe, the Swastika is an illegal symbol. If someone would carry a swastika, he would lose all respect. In the US (NYC) there are still protestors who seem to enjoy walking around with Swastika's, they think it will benefit the Palestinian people by calling Jews Nazi's.

Check out the ADL site ww.adl.org and see where the real anti-semites are. In the US, not in Euroland, and certainly not in France.

@Takeo

Zionism is NOT the same as semitism. Semitism is a science which investigates everything related to the Jewish people, thus a non Jew can be semite as well. Anti-semitism means you don't recognise the state of Israel, you deny the holocaust and so on. Zionism is the opposite of anti-semitism, semitism is not. There's no such thing as anti-zionism. It doesn't exist. But the term "anti-semitism" has been used wrongly by Israeli sympathysers who seem to enjoy calling everyone neo-nazi who questions Israeli's latest military campaigns.

@Lamp,

NOT all left-wingers are extremists. And if you really are so informed, you probably also know that many EU-embassies (in particular the Belgian one) were also stormed by Israeli right wingers.

takeo

05-18-2002, 04:04 AM

"Zionism is NOT the same as semitism. Semitism is a science which investigates everything related to the Jewish people, thus a non Jew can be semite as well. "

I think a semite is someone with semitic blood, that means an Arab, Berber or Jew in its large definition, in its small definition it means a Jew.

"Anti-semitism means you don't recognise the state of Israel, you deny the holocaust and so on. "

Wrong you can not accept the state of Israel and still you will not necessarily be an anti-semite. The state of israel is a creation of zionism, it is not bcause you don't agree with that that you are against all jews in the world (=anti-semitism) . Actually some jews are against the creation of israel.

"Zionism is the opposite of anti-semitism, semitism is not."

not true, semitism, doesn't exist, that's right, but anti-semitism is certainly not the opposite of zionism. You can be against anti-semitism and against zionism as well.

" There's no such thing as anti-zionism. It doesn't exist. But the term "anti-semitism" has been used wrongly by Israeli sympathysers who seem to enjoy calling everyone neo-nazi who questions Israeli's latest military campaigns. "

I think anti-zionism exist, it has indeed been wrongly used (not all people criticising the occupation are against the idea of zionism) as well as the word anti-semitism (not everyone criticising the policy of israel is anti-semitic) but if you think Israel has no right to exist and jews should not have their own land in palestine than you are an anti-zionist. (which doesn't mean you are for the extermination of Jews, maybe you think Jews should go back to Europe and other countries where they came from and live there among the other populations) .
Me, i'm, in theory, not for the idea of a separate country for the jewish people, on the condition that they have full rights as a minority in all the countries they live in, but i know that the state of israel is a fact and that most israeli are born in israel and have no more links to the countries of their parents or grand-parents. So a new people is born, and that people will have to find a solution for their problem with the original inhabitants in the region they live in.

Morpheus

05-18-2002, 04:18 AM

You can oppese the idea of an Israeli state, I agree, that doesn't mean your an anti-semite. I also don't think a nation which calls itself a democracy should be build on religion. But if you deny the state of israel, than you're anti-semite. Israel is a state, there are people living in it ... Arab nations should finally accept that Israel is a state and it has a right to live their peacefully.

Vic

05-18-2002, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Morpheus
Semitism is a science which investigates everything related to the Jewish people
Never heard of it

Morpheus

05-18-2002, 04:30 AM

Semitic /sI"mIt.Ik, s@"mI-/ adjective [not gradable]
relating to the Arab and Jewish races or their languages
Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages.
See also anti-Semitic at anti-.
Related words
Semitic can also refer to races such as the Babylonians and Phoenicians that existed in ancient times.
Related words
Sometimes Semitic refers only to Jews.
Related words

Anti-Semitism is the strong dislike or cruel and unfair treatment of Jewish people.

Zionism /"zaI@.nI.z@m/ noun [U]
a political movement which had as its original aim the creation of a country for Jewish people, and which now works to help the development of Israel

Vic

05-18-2002, 06:11 AM

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Semitism

NOUN:
1. A Semitic word or idiom. 2. Semitic traits, attributes, or customs. 3. A policy or predisposition in favor of Jews.

takeo

05-18-2002, 06:54 AM

ok, well maybe it exists, but it isn't used a lot.

you don't call someoene "semitist"

Vic

05-18-2002, 07:29 AM

It was new to me too. The point is, there is no "science" of this description.

cerulean

05-18-2002, 09:46 AM

CAIRO, Egypt - A man identified as an al-Qaida leader has claimed responsibility for last month's attack on a Tunisian synagogue that killed 19 people and vowed to attack Americans soon, a pan-Arab newspaper reported Saturday.

...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020518/ap_wo_en_ge/attacks_al_qaida_interview_1

Mediocrates

05-18-2002, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by takeo
that is not anti-semitism but antizionism or just against the current policy of the israeli government.

..because anyone who's not Jewish and not Israeli and a fervant zionist is also the target of similar attacks....

L@mplighterM

05-19-2002, 11:33 AM

May. 19, 2002
Explosion damages door, shatters windows at Quebec City's lone synagogue
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

A pre-dawn explosion Sunday at the only synagogue in Quebec City damaged the front door and shattered glass, but caused no injuries, police said.

One man was arrested in connection with the blast apparently caused by an incendiary device at the vacant synagogue in the capital of Quebec, Canada's Francophone province, according to police.

Quebec Premier Bernard Landry called the province's Canadian Jewish Congress to express his distress and offer help.

The explosion was the latest in a series of attacks on synagogues in Canada this year, including a fire at a downtown Toronto synagogue that damaged 2,000 religious texts, some dating to the 1860s. No injuries have been reported.

Complete article:

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813212920

Vic

05-19-2002, 12:01 PM

May. 19, 2002
Explosion damages door, shatters windows at Quebec City's lone synagogue
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

Originally posted by takeo
that is not anti-semitism but antizionism or just against the current policy of the israeli government.
...too, I suppose. Someone spotted the Star of David in there and felt offended by it, an understandable aberration...

Mediocrates

05-19-2002, 04:07 PM

takeo -

I guess because there is a sufficiently large enough population of NON Jewish zionist/Israelist organizations, individuals, facilities that are firebombed to make it not a Jewish issue.

Do you think about what you write before you write it or is today medication-free Sunday?

takeo

05-19-2002, 05:57 PM

"..because anyone who's not Jewish and not Israeli and a fervant zionist is also the target of similar attacks...."

YES, just one example: three weeks ago the French autor Jacques Moureau received death-treats by unknown persons because of his die-hard pro-israeli positions;
He is not Jew nor israeli...

firebombing synagogues is clearly an act of anti-semitism, this synagogue is not responsible for the acts of the israeli government, but attacking the israeli embassy for example(representation of the state of israel and its policy) is clearly an act of disagrement with the current israeli policy.

"Do you think about what you write before you write it or is today medication-free Sunday?"

actually it are alcohol-free views everyday except saterday eve :)

Morpheus

05-20-2002, 02:47 AM

If you are a Jew, a zionist living in France, but you don't have the Israeli nationality, I see no reason why you should complain. The hypocrisy of certain Jews living in Europe ... they are pro-Israeli, they support Israel, they don't want their gov't to criticise Israel (like in France) ... in that case, there's only one option : move to Israel and leave Europe behind. If you are European, than you must understand that Jews are a minority, just like Islam, they have no advantages over other people (unlike Israel, which is a Zionist-Jewish state), and are considered to be equal. This has nothing to do with anti-semitism. I understand that certain people rather live in Israel than in Europe because they feel more accepted over there. Although most Jews like to stay in Europe :
1. safety, no suicide attacks in pubs
2. maybe all that **** about anti-semitism in Europe is exagerated. Most Jews living in Europe feel fine, accepted, probably even more than Arabs. Hostility towards Arabs is more common than towards Jews.

Also, I would add something. My first concern is my nationality, not my religion. I'm a Christian living in Europe, but I have the same nationality as a Jew living here.

BTW, I'm not speaking about personnal attacks on Jews in Europe by skinheads etc. This should not be tolerated and just as in the US, gov't should take actions.

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 05:46 AM

"The hypocrisy of certain Jews living in Europe ... they are pro-Israeli, they support Israel, they don't want their gov't to criticise Israel (like in France) ... in that case, there's only one option : move to Israel and leave Europe behind."

Love it or leave it. OK I get it, really I do. Nice words from Tolerance-istan.

Morpheus

05-20-2002, 09:42 AM

What does this have to do with tolerance??

Everybody here is always wining about those Europeans. Well, if you hate it that much that you can't live there anymore, than there's only one option: leave!

Maybe life for Jewish peope ain't that bad here after all. That's why so many people prefer to stay in Europe and not move to Israel.

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Morpheus
What does this have to do with tolerance??

Everybody here is always wining about those Europeans. Well, if you hate it that much that you can't live there anymore, than there's only one option: leave!

Maybe life for Jewish peope ain't that bad here after all. That's why so many people prefer to stay in Europe and not move to Israel.

If the Palestinians hate it so much they'd rather die maybe they should pull up stakes and move somewhere else.

Morpheus

05-20-2002, 09:54 AM

I don't think you can compare the Jews in Europe with the Palestinians in Israel. The Jews here are not threatened by their gov't, we don't bulldozer whole house blocks of a Jewish neighbourhoud because there might be a terrorist hidden there.

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 11:52 AM

But the thought process is the same, no? If you don't like it, then move.

Better to be an oppressed Frenchman and an unhappy one than stand up for your rights.

takeo

05-20-2002, 03:17 PM

i agree 100% with morpheus.
No single French Jew is oppressed and they have exactly the same rights as any other French (they can criticise the French government as Le Pen-supporters can too, but they can not expect the french government to take a 100% pro-israel attitude because they want so, that is very different from "oppressing jews"). (by the way most French Jews don't support israel 100%)

takeo

05-20-2002, 03:19 PM

i don't think palestinians in the occupied territories had the same rights as French Jews during the 35 years of oppression...
if not i would now live in israel.

Vic

05-20-2002, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by takeo
i agree 100% with morpheus.
No single French Jew is oppressed and they have exactly the same rights as any other French (they can criticise the French government as Le Pen-supporters can too, but they can not expect the french government to take a 100% pro-israel attitude because they want so, that is very different from "oppressing jews"). (by the way most French Jews don't support israel 100%)
Sounds fine.
Just one problem: why doesn't France take Jews from other countries in?

takeo

05-20-2002, 04:18 PM

they did in the past, a lot, but now the laws are equal for all foreigners who want to immigrate to France and don't have ancestry in France. (however as a Jew I think you may still have more chance of being accepted, for sure if someone has a higher skill of education)

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 04:54 PM

Now they have immigration laws with hard numbers like every other industrialised country. It is nearly impossible for a French company to hire a foreign skilled worker, for example if that person is not an EUer already.

The converse of that is Canada, though my Canadian friends hate it when I say it, their country more or less sells citizenship to foreign nationals who can afford to dump several hundred thousand dollars in a business or in escrow. Voila instant ex-Hong Kong citizenship!

At any rate no country simply takes in people with the exception of Israel. The US hasn't welcomed people with open arms since before WW1, whatever the Statue of Liberty says.

L@mplighterM

05-20-2002, 09:39 PM

British Jews brace for possible outbreak of suicide bombings
Ha'aretz | Last update - 09:26 20/05/2002 | By Sharon Sadeh, Ha'aretz Correspondent

LONDON - British Jews recently began an organized effort to prepare for a possible outbreak of suicide terrorism, but those involved decided to keep the effort under wraps to avoid causing panic.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165955&contrassbID=1&subContrassID=5&sbSuContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Morpheus

05-21-2002, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Vic

Sounds fine.
Just one problem: why doesn't France take Jews from other countries in?

All Jews have the right to get the French nationality just like everybody else on this planet if they are legalised and if they have a permission to stay in the EU. But what do you expect France to do? To ask all Jews to come to France? Believe me, there are people who are suffering a lot more than the Jewish people. These should be helped first, like the people in Kosovo, Afghanistan. They are the ones who should get asylum, because they are political refugees.

In Europe we have more refugees than in the US. Sure, there are some people crossing the Mexican-US border to start a better life, but the laws on immigration in the US are more severe than in the EU. Untill recently, it was easy for a foreigner to get the EU-nationality, but after the Kosovo-crisis, regulations were getting much tighter.

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 10:14 AM

In Europe we have more refugees than in the US.

You have more local/regional wars too, which is probably the root cause.

Sure, there are some people crossing the Mexican-US border to start a better life

About 1 million a year. Could you absorb that?

but the laws on immigration in the US are more severe than in the EU.

Do you have anything substantive about that or just a general vague sense that you're good people and we are not?

Until recently, it was easy for a foreigner to get the EU-nationality, but after the Kosovo-crisis, regulations were getting much tighter.

Freedom and grace are nice things to talk about except when someone actually needs it. Then it's no longer official policy.

Morpheus

05-21-2002, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
[b]
Freedom and grace are nice things to talk about except when someone actually needs it. Then it's no longer official policy.

Someone who's seeking political asylum will get it ASAP. But there are also thousands of economic refugees who also want EU-nationality. As much as we like to help these people, it's impossible.

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 10:29 AM

How easy, what are the criteria and how many were accepted/rejected? From which countries? what are the criteria for determining that a coutry can generate political refugees? what is the distinction between a political refugee and and an emigree?

Morpheus

05-21-2002, 11:06 AM

Criteria. Well, a good question. Maybe the regimes where they come from? Someone from Afghanistan would get asylum without too much problems, but what about someone from the Ukrain for example. Ukraine is not a whealty country, lots of poverty. We can donate money to the Ukrainian gov't, but that's about it. We can't allow all Ukrainians to come here because here living standards are higher. It's tough, I know, but you should draw the line somewhere. I think you will agree with me on this point (if you don't, you're an utopist, or you just like to argue with me);

Vic

05-21-2002, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
How easy, what are the criteria and how many were accepted/rejected? From which countries? what are the criteria for determining that a coutry can generate political refugees? what is the distinction between a political refugee and and an emigree?
Basically according to the Geneva Convention of 1951:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_c_ref.htm
Btw. - this is (or was) the status under discussion for the Church of Nativity 13, the problem is Article 1, F.

The main distinction is that - in theory - the refugee status is determined according to the situation of the refugee himself, not the interests of the host country. An immigrant is someone the host country decides to take in, usually because of its internal needs, like computer specialists during the internet boom.

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Morpheus
Criteria. Well, a good question. Maybe the regimes where they come from? Someone from Afghanistan would get asylum without too much problems

Why? because their house got blown up?

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Vic

Basically according to the Geneva Convention of 1951:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_c_ref.htm
Btw. - this is (or was) the status under discussion for the Church of Nativity 13, the problem is Article 1, F.

The main distinction is that - in theory - the refugee status is determined according to the situation of the refugee himself, not the interests of the host country. An immigrant is someone the host country decides to take in, usually because of its internal needs, like computer specialists during the internet boom.

interesting legal question.

I'm not an immigrant because by programming skills aren't needed or welcome where I come from. I'm a refugee because my government doesn't like computer programmers. slippery.

For decades Russian Jewish refuseniks were refused entry into EU countries and the US based on strict quotas. They were stripped of their jobs and homes, sometimes for years. And when they were permitted to leave they were denied entry because they were 'unemployed' or 'voluntarily leaving their own country for financial gain'. How cynical is that?

L@mplighterM

05-24-2002, 08:28 PM

Police Warn of Possible Attack on Ottawa Jewish Community

The Story:

TORONTO (AP) - A synagogue or other gathering place for Ottawa's Jewish community could be attacked in June, police and city officials warned Friday.

A security advisory issued by Ottawa police said unconfirmed information about a possible attack "raised a serious enough concern" to warn the public.

City police and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were unable to either confirm or disprove the threat. No details were made public except that the threat involved a possible synagogue attack in June.

Police Chief Vince Bevan and Mayor Bob Chiarelli wrote a letter to the city's Jewish community saying police would be particularly vigilant and had formulated a response plan to any possible attack.

"We recognize that this information could be troubling and unsettling to you, your family and friends," the letter said. "We would like to assure you that the Ottawa police and the entire city of Ottawa take this matter very seriously."

In recent months, several Jewish synagogues in Canada have been attacked.

http://terrornews.net/home/article.asp?idx=510

Vic

05-24-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
For decades Russian Jewish refuseniks were refused entry into EU countries and the US based on strict quotas. They were stripped of their jobs and homes, sometimes for years. And when they were permitted to leave they were denied entry because they were 'unemployed' or 'voluntarily leaving their own country for financial gain'. How cynical is that?
It's sickening. But I've heard that it had to do something with Israel. All of the refuseniks were expected to go there and to no other place, so the Western countries "obliged".

L@mplighterM

05-27-2002, 11:09 AM

May. 27, 2002
Russian woman wounded in explosion while removing sign reading 'Death to Jews'
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

A woman was hospitalized Monday with severe burns from an explosion that went off while she was trying to tear down a roadside sign outside Moscow reading "Death to Jews," police said.

The woman was in critical but stable condition at Moscow's City Hospital No. 1 after the incident on the Kiev highway about 18 miles southwest of the capital, said traffic police investigators at the site.

The woman had been driving along the highway when she spotted a sign hand-painted with black letters reading "Death to Jews" posted by the roadside. She stopped her car and tried to pull the sign out of the earth, and was hit by the explosion, according to a duty officer with the Moscow regional police.

A traffic police investigator confirmed that the blast was caused by an explosive device. No other details were immediately available.

The sign was hurled into a ditch at the edge of the adjacent woodland, located along a busy highway near Moscow's Vnukovo airport.

The incident came amid heightened fears of racist violence in Moscow in recent weeks. While ultranationalist violence in Russia remains rare, Russian skinheads threatened a "war against foreigners" earlier this year and several attacks against dark-skinned people have been reported recently.

President Vladimir Putin has won praise from some Jewish groups for supporting efforts to revive Jewish culture after the discrimination and state-enforced atheism of the Soviet era.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813253294

elke

05-27-2002, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
May. 27, 2002
Russian woman wounded in explosion while removing sign reading 'Death to Jews'...

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813253294

Somehow, I am not surprised... :rolleyes:

Vic

05-27-2002, 05:28 PM

Tuesday, May. 28, 2002. Page 1

Racist Road Sign Blows Up Near City

By Robin Munro
Staff Writer
A day after visiting U.S. President George W. Bush stopped at a synagogue and praised religious freedom in Russia, a booby-trapped road sign with an anti-Semitic slogan exploded near Moscow and injured a woman Monday.

The woman, Tatyana Sapunova, 28, lost an eye after she tried to pull the sign out of the ground 32 kilometers southwest of Moscow, local media reported. She was in critical but stable condition at City Hospital No. 1 on Monday night.

Prosecutor General Vladimir Ustinov said he would take the case under his personal control.

"All incidents of extremism or racial intolerance will be handled with the maximum strictness allowed by law," he said, Interfax reported.

Sapunova and her daughter were driving on Kievskoye Shosse at noon Monday when she saw the sign near a turnoff to Vnukovo Airport, Interfax reported. She stopped her Gazel minibus and got out. The explosion took place as she tugged on the sign.

The blast had the force of 100 grams to 200 grams of TNT, Interfax said.

Television footage showed the sign with "Smert Zhidam," or "Death to Yids" written in large black paint lying in the trees along the road, where it had been hurled by the blast.

Berl Lazar, one of Russia's two chief rabbis, called for more effective action against extremism, Interfax reported.

[...]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2002/05/28/002.html

cerulean

05-31-2002, 05:55 PM

The woman who pulled out the sign may or may not recover sight in her left eye.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/01/international/europe/01RUSS.html

cerulean

05-31-2002, 06:09 PM

But it is about France. A French writer is being brought to court by four French Muslim religious organizations because he said that "Islam was the most stupid of all religions."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,723891,00.html

It appears, though, that this is a common conviction - Brigitte Bardot (the actress) has been convicted three times on a similar charge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/showbiz/newsid_1324000/1324707.stm

arielle

06-07-2002, 10:54 AM

I am not American and I am the first to criticize American policies I do not like but the amount of anti-American propoganda that goes on in Europe is disturbing and dangerous. Each summer I go to France and when I was younger I would go to summer camps with French kids and T.V programmes would down-right lie about America.
After having lived and studied in Europe the impression I got was that Europeans hate it that a non-socialist country is doing so well. Not only doing well but helping Europeans out when they are in trouble. (World War 1 and 2 are examples)
Europeans ambassadors in Canada like to say that Jews claim there is a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe only because they do not like that Europe is unbiased when it comes to Israel.
Tell me, when the French ambassador to England calls Israel a "****ty little country" and does not gat fired or even reprimanded, is this unbiased?

elke

06-07-2002, 11:16 AM

Robert Heinlein said in one of his books that gratitude is a form of resentment. It sounds crazy, but looking at the European behavior, it certainly seems like a plausible explanation for the anti-Americanism.

India - a subcontinent with 1B people, and Pakistan are said to be on the brink of a nuclear war! Yet the headlines are dominated by 6 million Israelis' reactions to 3.5 million Palestinian suicide bombers. Something weird is going on, for sure!

Mediocrates

06-07-2002, 11:48 AM

I think arrogance is a form of regret.

elke

06-07-2002, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think arrogance is a form of regret.

Good point, actually. I think I agree with you on that.

takeo

06-07-2002, 12:45 PM

Europe has to be independant from the superpower, we will not serve us' interests, we have our own interests and policy. if you are looking for satellite-states forget France and go terrorising some latinamerican countries.
What about the lies told about France, for example on this forum, by people who have never even visited France...
why should we feel gratitude because the us liberated parts of Europe? the Soviet-union helped too at a greater cost, do we have to be eternally gratefull to the soviet-union? Do the us has to be eternally gratefull because France helped them in their independance war?

L@mplighterM

06-07-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think arrogance is a form of regret.

I think regret is a form of arrogance.

L@mplighterM

06-13-2002, 09:19 PM

Sappers probe second ‘Death to Jews’ sign near Moscow
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

Explosives experts were investigating an anti-Semitic sign found yesterday on a Moscow highway with the same epithet as a sign that caused an explosion last month when a passerby attempted to remove it.

Authorities have cordoned off the area around the sign found on the highway that rings the capital, the Interfax news agency reported. Police were tipped off by a driver who saw the red sign with black letters reading "Death to Jews," and authorities from the domestic security agency were also at the scene.

Last month, a woman was seriously injured while trying to remove a similar sign on a road outside Moscow. Copycat signs also appeared in the city of Voronezh last week.

The explosion came amid heightened fears of racist violence in Moscow, and Russian skinheads have threatened a "war against foreigners." The day after the explosion, skinheads in Moscow attacked a 16-year-old American Jewish boy whose father serves as the rabbi in Voronezh.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716465664

cerulean

06-17-2002, 04:19 AM

This article get views from across the spectrum, from Jews who feel quite threatened to those who feel little threat.

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Paris3_When_It_Sizzles_With_Hate.asp

cerulean

06-17-2002, 08:21 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61536-2002Jun16.html

This editorial focuses on Jurgen Mollemann, deputy leader of Germany's Free Democratic Party. I believe Vic at one time posted that this party is essentially a joke, but I don't want to misquote.

Vic

06-17-2002, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61536-2002Jun16.html

This editorial focuses on Jurgen Mollemann, deputy leader of Germany's Free Democratic Party. I believe Vic at one time posted that this party is essentially a joke, but I don't want to misquote. Not the party itself, "it's a long and sad tale" (the party use to be very good, long ago...), but Mr. Moellemann himself. He did hold a governmental office years ago and lost the job for promoting an invention of a close relative, a chip for supermarket carts, on ministerial letterheads, characterizing it as "witty product". (Germany is not the US, you know. You can't do it the Bush family way, at least not as openly ;)) This "witty product" ("pfiffiges Produkt") became his second name for years, a psychologist would probably say that he is currently over-compensating the resulting inferiority complex the way all morons do. His last name sounds rather funny in German too, people are making puns about it the whole time. But I've heard someone say recently that they laughed a lot about Hitler too, until it was too late. Not a pleasant thought.

One thing is certain: the whole affair is a case study on how not to deal with anti-semitism. I suppose that any European, and especially German politician would have learned by now that the cheapest way to catapult oneself from a non-entity to a worldwide celebrity is to make anti-semitic statements :(

takeo

06-17-2002, 04:06 PM

He didn't made an anti-semitic statement.
what did he exactly say that was anti-semitic to you???
""I, too, would resist, indeed violently,"
if resistance to occupation is anti-semitic, than i'm anti-semitic as well as well as the people fighting the nazi's.

"Then he suggested that his party enlist as a member a politician who accused the Israeli army of "Nazi methods" and complained of "the influence of the Zionist lobby" in the media."

well, so anyone accusing hamas of committing nazi-acts and complains about the "Arab influence" in Europe is an anti-arab racist? And anyone saying that Hamas or terrorists do contribute to the hatred against Palestinians as well?

"When those not-so-subtle messages prompted criticism from Michel Friedman, a talk show host who serves on Germany's Central Council of Jews, Mr. Mollemann resorted to a classic tactic of the 1930s: blaming the Jews for inspiring hatred. "Hardly anyone makes the anti-Semites, who unfortunately do exist in Germany, more popular than Mr. [Ariel] Sharon," Mr. Mollemann pronounced -- "and in Germany, Friedman, with his intolerant and spiteful manner."

The man is absolutely right, and it's exactly what our party says as well (and i think the PDS in germany as well) and what most people in Europe and in the world think!!!! most of you think that the owrst insults of lomplighters and others against Arabs and Muslims aren't racism, but even the slightest criticism on israel is anti-semitism! Get real!!!

about the first article: that's what we call "subjective sence of insecurity". Some people get scared when they hear people talking Arab or see a couple of algerians in the street...
But only very few people in France actually got attacked because they are Jewish, and all those cases reach the international press.

""I always identified first as a French citizen and as a Jew," she says. Her Jewish identity remained private, as lobbying and "communautarisme" [single-identity issues] are frowned upon. "

that's true for most French jews, and not because they are forced but because they really feel that way.

"The Jews of France became unified briefly in fighting Le Pen. With that threat over, the ongoing anti-Semitic events have exposed differences along fault lines of religious observance, social class, politics, age and origins. "

that's right too

and you have to be totally ignorant not to see that the current problems are totally linked to the problems in the Middle East.
"Residents lived in relative peace until the new intifada began some 20 months ago. "

as elke said in another treath:
"I still think that suspicion of a group, based on their beliefs and/or actions, is a legitimate response and does not constitute racism. " (It was in defense of anti-Arab or anti-Muslim statements.)
I don't agree with such a view, but some other people do, that's why there is antisemitism in France among a small number of citizens of Arab origin.

Not all Jews agree. Some Jewish intellectuals, leftist politicians and journalists ally themselves with the plight of Arabs. The most assimilated and least religious Jews feel as comfortable as ever in France.

"I don't see that things have deteriorated in France so that you can see anti-Semitism or feel it," says cancer researcher Marc Lipinski, 48, a member of the Green Party and of the city council in Vanves, a town of 25,000 outside of Paris.

Eric de Rothschild, 61, president of the Rothschild Foundation, worries about anti-Semitic incidents in the suburbs but notes that "statistically, non-Jews are targeted as often as Jews."

"The Jewish community in France," says de Rothschild, "has reacted as forcefully as it should, without resorting to hysteria and threats."

absolutely

some people like to see a Jewish zionist block to influence the French government and get benefits as in the US, and create a hysteria of "anti-semitism"(always a usefull tool to reverse any criticism, but very dangerous because it can only benefit real anti-semitists such as Le Pen) . Fortunately they are only a small minority of the jewish community in France, and I'm very lucky i don't live in the US.

"Few Jews in power admit to any grave danger. They also reject any outside intervention. In fact, they resent Israel's call to French Jews to make aliyah. They attack the American Jewish Congress for suggesting a boycott of the Cannes Film Festival and French products. Even Raphael rages at outsiders. "

Yes, they don't like to create histeria, they don't like foreigners telling the french Jews how anti-semitic their country is, and they are French in the first place, Jewish is only their background (the same applies for all etnic origins in France)

"French Holocaust survivors are as furious as the rest. "There's no need to panic, just to pay attention," says Alexandre Danemans, 72, a retired businessman and Holocaust survivor. "

absolutely right

"His optimism stems from his wartime experiences. Barely 12, Danemans watched as his parents were arrested in Tours to be shipped off to Auschwitz. He found a safe haven with a Catholic family in a neighboring town. They sheltered him, passing him off as a nephew for the entire war.
Gilbert May, 77, born in Strasbourg into one of Alsace's oldest Jewish families, owes his life to a protective archbishop. Like Danemans, he has seen worse periods and believes this one will blow over.
May, vice president of the Jewish organization LICRA (League against Racism), joined the French Resistance in 1939, eventually was arrested by the Gestapo and landed in Struthof, France's only concentration camp. He shared a cell with the archbishop and a Bourbon prince. When all three were shipped to Dachau, the archbishop had May participate in Mass to protect him"

The Jewish students' organization, UEJF, recently joined forces with SOS Racisme -- a respected anti-racism group headed by an Algerian -- to co-write a white paper on anti-Semitic acts over the past two years.

"Our worst fear is indifference," says Eric Wahed, 24, president of the UEJF's Marseille chapter, who organizes rallies and counters pro-Palestinian propaganda on campus. He was stunned just last month as he watched the synagogue in Caillol burn to the ground.

"We have to mobilize and fight back," Wahed says. "Granted, this is not 1939, but we have come to another crossroads for Jews in France."

"We got along well as long as we had a common enemy in Le Pen," says Schor. "Now the moderates are afraid of incurring the wrath of radical 'integristes.' "

that may be true.

"Individual friendships with Arabs are also chilling. An Arab friend had commissioned a painting from Kessel of a village near Bethlehem, with two women in long robes walking through the streets. The friend became more belligerent in their usual debates about the Middle East. The next day he told Kessel that he could not be his friend or pay him for the painting. Kessel brought the painting back to his studio and, in a fit of pique, painted a mezuzah on the door of each Arab home. "

Yes, the situation in the middle East is stirring the Arab and jewish french relations. But it didn't affect my life and friendship the slightest bit, it only makes political discussions with them more interesting.

The french television, wich some channels are owned by jewish people, tries to be evenhanded, as CNN. We will never only broadcast israeli propaganda as the zionist lobby would like to see.

"The state of siege is new and uncomfortable. Abehsera, born in Morocco, socialized freely with Muslims there. Once he moved to France 12 years ago, he discovered that the relationship between the two communities was acrid, confrontational and tense.
"At universities, there is a move to isolate Jews," says Abehsera, who teaches dentistry. "I'm not packed and ready to leave France just yet," he says. "But I've cashed out of several investments and my passport is up to date."

that's BS, and THIS I am the most suited person to know for sure on this forum.

Vic

06-17-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by takeo
Against my better judgement...
if resistance to occupation is anti-semitic, than i'm anti-semitic as well as well as the people fighting the nazi's.You are. Some of them were anti-semites too, others were not. It has never been the defining aspect.

The man is absolutely right, and it's exactly what our party says as well (and i think the PDS in germany as well) and what most people in Europe and in the world think!!!!What party do you belong to? Just curious :)

about the first article: that's what we call "subjective sence of insecurity". Some people get scared when they hear people talking Arab or see a couple of algerians in the street...
But only very few people in France actually got attacked because they are Jewish, and all those cases reach the international press. I agree on that. The trouble is less that such attacks are widely reported than that the reporting itself is done out of proper context and that the "usual" racist attacks attract much less attention.

Which makes me wonder about you. France is by all accounts a strongly racist country, I needn't tell you that, I daresay. The very Arabs you are so deeply concerned when they are mistreated in Israel are grossly discriminated against in France too, the educational system is sometimes described as implementing a de facto apartheid.

(For these of you not acquainted with the issues, a recent summary of the situation:Chirac's next challenge is to tackle the causes of the Le Pen vote, which are at root a failure by French society to achieve the kind of assimilation that is now seen as normal in the U.S. and Britain.

Despite some 7 million immigrants -- mostly now French born or full citizens, there is not a single member of the 577-seat National Assembly of Arab stock. And despite a smattering of candidates in hopeless seats for minor parties, none looks likely to be elected this time.

Nor is the community represented in the Senate, nor among France's 36,000 elected mayors. This has to change, and France's immigrants given a real stake in the country because otherwise something ugly is building.source: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=07062002-051651-8082r )

Well, like most "Israel critics" you are probably more comfortable with human rights violations that happen at a safe distance from your place of residence than with the ones bang in front of you, which you, being a citizen of your country, a full member of your society can actually do a lot about. But we are quite satisfied when our fellow citizens we definetely owe support to seriously believe that their main problem is far away from our real sphere of influence, aren't we?

takeo

06-17-2002, 05:16 PM

"You are. Some of them were anti-semites too, others were not. It has never been the defining aspect. "

Sure, ANYONE daring to critizise israel is an anti-semit or a self-hating Jew :rolleyes: . but of course we should have full comprehension for people calling Arabs or Muslims animal or subhumans or whatever and it certainly can't be racism... (his name begins with a L)
you clearly have a double standard, calling Arab countries and people whatever insult you can imagine, because of their policy, is not racism, but even making much less radical and more polite statements concerning ithe Israeli policy is considered anti-semitism. I think that discussion with people like you is not possible, if you work with obviously double standards.
That's the big mistake of the zionist movement, their defense (everyone who is not with us is anti-semitic) is so biased that they loose credibility.

"Which makes me wonder about you. France is by all accounts a strongly racist country, I needn't tell you that, I daresay. The very Arabs you are so deeply concerned when they are mistreated in Israel are grossly discriminated against in France too, the educational system is sometimes described as implementing a de facto apartheid. "

blabla, arabs in france are well integrated and according to the same L they are very influential (wich is an exxageration of course). In reality France is the country in Europe where Arabs and other immigrants have integrated the most. in no other country in Europe and certainly not in the us you have so much mixed marriages and cultural mixes as in France, for example the algerian/french singer Cheb Khaled is very popular among ALL French youth. In no other European country so much Arabs are professor in the university, manager of companies, or other responsible positions.
about Germany: i once read a book of a German journalist who said he was Turkish (Turkish people look quite European) and observed all the discrimination he had to endure. The most racist part of france is Alsace, a region with an important german-speaking population...
And i've heard from Mexicans in the US and Palestinians in israel how open-minded and tolerant those countries are...

"Chirac's next challenge is to tackle the causes of the Le Pen vote, which are at root a failure by French society to achieve the kind of assimilation that is now seen as normal in the U.S. and Britain. "

the US and GB are much more segregated than France.

"Despite some 7 million immigrants -- mostly now French born or full citizens, there is not a single member of the 577-seat National Assembly of Arab stock. And despite a smattering of candidates in hopeless seats for minor parties, none looks likely to be elected this time. "

BS, there is even an Arab minister (a woman) in the new rightist government. In my party (the PCF) there are around 20% of Arab members in Paris.

How many Arab or Muslims are represented in the US congress?

"Well, like most "Israel critics" you are probably more comfortable with human rights violations that happen at a safe distance from your place of residence than with the ones bang in front of you, which you, being a citizen of your country, a full member of your society can actually do a lot about. But we are quite satisfied when our fellow citizens we definetely owe support to seriously believe that their main problem is far away from our real sphere of influence, aren't we?"

actually there is no comparison, but on the contrary the problems of the middle east get exported to France with both a considerable Arab and jewish minority so we are involved too.
if the Arabs in france would be treated like the Palestinians i'm sure we would have daily suicide-bombings as well.

But, this theory of yours above, isn't this applyable to all people on this forum who don't live in israel? why care for israel and take care of your own problems in Germany, the US... it's actually a stupid argument.

__________________
"In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep oneself." - Albert Einstein

Blue Moon

06-18-2002, 12:20 AM

Just so I get this straight (cause I've been a chewin' on this for awhile . . . ): Mr. Takeo, am I correct in summarizing your position as this:

1) You are Jewish, yet you live in a predominately Arab section of France - - that country known for treating its Jewish population with the utmost kindness and openness, and the sight many of the recent anti-semetic attacks.
2) You don't really know how you would be treated if you walked around your neighborhood with a yarmulke and tallit on, while carrying a copy of the old testimant, and you don't do so only because you don't go to temple,
3) And, that you visited some of the Middle Eastern countries and liked the people and they liked you - - again, without your yarmulke or tallit or old testimant - - but they liked you because you badmouthed Israel ?

Is this summary mostly true ?? By the way, do you say the same things in your current neighborhood that you did in the Middle East ??? If so, the American African-Americans have a term for such a person: Uncle Tom.

I can only hope someday, that one of the genes on your Jewish DNA chromosomes bursts, and you are confronted in your own mind with the 4,000 plus year history of your ancestors, and the
pain and anguish they've suffered just trying to find a place to live without being ridiculed, oppressed, slaughtered and tortured.

Now, I'm waiting with baited breath - - please, please tell us all how the West Bank and Gaza Arabs, through no fault of thier own or that of their loving Arab brothers in nearby Middle East countries - - have suffered just as much as the Jewish People.

Please say it again for me. I contantly need to be reminded of that there are a few Jews here and there who aren't especially bright (and, I'm not discriminating, because in the U.S., Hollywood has some too . . .).
:p

Vic

06-18-2002, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by takeo
"You are. Some of them were anti-semites too, others were not. It has never been the defining aspect. "

Sure, ANYONE daring to critizise israel is an anti-semit or a self-hating Jew :rolleyes: . but of course we should have full comprehension for people calling Arabs or Muslims animal or subhumans or whatever and it certainly can't be racism... (his name begins with a L)
you clearly have a double standard, calling Arab countries and people whatever insult you can imagine, because of their policy, is not racism, but even making much less radical and more polite statements concerning ithe Israeli policy is considered anti-semitism. I think that discussion with people like you is not possible, if you work with obviously double standards.
That's the big mistake of the zionist movement, their defense (everyone who is not with us is anti-semitic) is so biased that they loose credibility. You seem to blend several posters here into one person. I did as a matter of fact question the far too liberal usage of the term "Arab". I know this "criticizing-Israel-is-not-anisemitic" song all too well, the general assumption is that by criticizing Israel one acquires total immunity against anti-semitism accusations.

"Which makes me wonder about you. France is by all accounts a strongly racist country, I needn't tell you that, I daresay. The very Arabs you are so deeply concerned when they are mistreated in Israel are grossly discriminated against in France too, the educational system is sometimes described as implementing a de facto apartheid. "

blabla, arabs in france are well integrated and according to the same L they are very influential (wich is an exxageration of course). In reality France is the country in Europe where Arabs and other immigrants have integrated the most. in no other country in Europe and certainly not in the us you have so much mixed marriages and cultural mixes as in France, for example the algerian/french singer Cheb Khaled is very popular among ALL French youth. In no other European country so much Arabs are professor in the university, manager of companies, or other responsible positions.
about Germany: i once read a book of a German journalist who said he was Turkish (Turkish people look quite European) and observed all the discrimination he had to endure. The most racist part of france is Alsace, a region with an important german-speaking population...
And i've heard from Mexicans in the US and Palestinians in israel how open-minded and tolerant those countries are...
Again, if you want to argue against someone else, do so. Funny you should try to enlighten me of all people about racism in Germany, I am currently carrying my Sephardic face and my accent no one can identify here properly through the streets of this very country. No, Turks don't look "European", maybe "South European" but actually quite "foreign" here, and most Germans who don't know me think I'm "a kind of Turk". Yes, there is a lot of racism in Germany, which on its own hardly proves that there is none in France.

Have you ever bothered to ask the French human rights organisations? May I inform you that there exists an anti-racism movent in your country and that its members and leaders paint an entirely different picture. Need some links?

Do you have comparative statistics for the representation of minorities among the academic personnel and in top positions in the private economy? It would be quite interesting.

"Chirac's next challenge is to tackle the causes of the Le Pen vote, which are at root a failure by French society to achieve the kind of assimilation that is now seen as normal in the U.S. and Britain. "

the US and GB are much more segregated than France.Data?

"Despite some 7 million immigrants -- mostly now French born or full citizens, there is not a single member of the 577-seat National Assembly of Arab stock. And despite a smattering of candidates in hopeless seats for minor parties, none looks likely to be elected this time. "

BS, there is even an Arab minister (a woman) in the new rightist government. In my party (the PCF) there are around 20% of Arab members in Paris.

How many Arab or Muslims are represented in the US congress?It's a kind of fashion among conservative parties right now to put minority representatives in high positions. A sort of development of "some of my best friends are Jews": look, how can you claim that some of our policies are discriminatory, we have an Arab (Turk, African or whatever) in our government (on our board of directors, in our party leadership etc.)

So you are a Communist? Isn't racism an issue for your party anymore? Some of your German brethren, the PDS you have cited (not much of a political force on the whole btw.), are at least quite explicit on it.

"Well, like most "Israel critics" you are probably more comfortable with human rights violations that happen at a safe distance from your place of residence than with the ones bang in front of you, which you, being a citizen of your country, a full member of your society can actually do a lot about. But we are quite satisfied when our fellow citizens we definetely owe support to seriously believe that their main problem is far away from our real sphere of influence, aren't we?"

actually there is no comparison, but on the contrary the problems of the middle east get exported to France with both a considerable Arab and jewish minority so we are involved too.
if the Arabs in france would be treated like the Palestinians i'm sure we would have daily suicide-bombings as well.
Wasn't there already a series of bombing attacks in France?

But seriously, the question still remains. I know you don't like it :D . Nobody does.
But, this theory of yours above, isn't this applyable to all people on this forum who don't live in israel? why care for israel and take care of your own problems in Germany, the US... it's actually a stupid argument.Your manners aside, as a matter of fact I do. One hardly excludes the other, on the contrary, it's quite helpful to get the big picture. Give it a try too. "SOS racisme", for one - http://www.sos-racisme-14.org/ , http://www.sos-racisme.org - appreciates volunteers, I've been told ;)

cerulean

06-18-2002, 01:51 AM

From the New Republic:

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020624&s=judis062402

I think the basic point of the article is that Germany is in crisis due to economics, inflexible labor laws, and an unintegrated class of immigrants. The fact that the immigrants are unassimilated is also due in large part ot German laws.

I have a Taiwanese friend who spent a number of years in Germany and pines for it regularly. If he experienced racism, he has never mentioned it (or perhaps he doesn't want to mention it to me). I wonder if his experience is different from someone with a "southern European/Turkish" appearance, since there's no ambiguity as to his origins in his case.

=======
As for the difficulties of Arab immigrants integrating into French society, I can see there would be difficulties on both sides. The cultures are so far apart and in terms of sheer numbers, the Arab immigrants would have reached a point where integration is not really necessary to be perfectly functional in day to day life. But I know relatively little about this, so will leave it to the experts. I do recall the controversy some years ago when the French education minister was attempting to prohibit high school girls from wearing a veil to class. What was the end result of that effort? It's interesting that Turkey will not allow women to wear the veil in class or in government positions, precisely because they fear Islamic fundamentalism will make inroads if this is allowed. Realistically, I don't see how Arab women can fully integrate into French society if they wear veils to school and work, and I would suspect that most Arab women who have integrated do not wear veils.

christian

06-18-2002, 08:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerulean
[B]From the New Republic:

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020624&s=judis062402

I think the basic point of the article is that Germany is in crisis due to economics, inflexible labor laws, and an unintegrated class of immigrants. The fact that the immigrants are unassimilated is also due in large part ot German laws.

I have a Taiwanese friend who spent a number of years in Germany and pines for it regularly. If he experienced racism, he has never mentioned it (or perhaps he doesn't want to mention it to me). I wonder if his experience is different from someone with a "southern European/Turkish" appearance, since there's no ambiguity as to his origins in his case.

Actually, the foreigner who works abroad like southeast asia. Most of them, includes germans, marries a oriental woman. The racism is strong in Germany. However, when the people live abroad. People changes their perspective.

My boss is a german. Who divorce his wife, to marry a oriental woman. Many foreigner does the same.

Other foreigner like jewish people, marries asian woman. There are many mixed marriage with foreigner, working abroad.

Perhaps, the foreigner likes the family value, which many chinese woman stands for. Many man in HK are taken for granted. :D

takeo

06-19-2002, 06:06 PM

"1) You are Jewish, yet you live in a predominately Arab section of France - - that country known for treating its Jewish population with the utmost kindness and openness, and the sight many of the recent anti-semetic attacks.
2) You don't really know how you would be treated if you walked around your neighborhood with a yarmulke and tallit on, while carrying a copy of the old testimant, and you don't do so only because you don't go to temple,
3) And, that you visited some of the Middle Eastern countries and liked the people and they liked you - - again, without your yarmulke or tallit or old testimant - - but they liked you because you badmouthed Israel ? "

yes, they liked me (not all of them of course) because I was not in favor of the israeli policy, and because i visited their country, that's right, but i tried to talk with them in an open way, and always said that israel has the right to exist, which some agreed to and other didn't.

"Is this summary mostly true ?? By the way, do you say the same things in your current neighborhood that you did in the Middle East ??? If so, the American African-Americans have a term for such a person: Uncle Tom. "

what's uncle Tom, except the book?
in my neighbourhood I behave as a French, while the costums in some arab countries are different... you have to be a little more carefull, it are for the most part of them not open democratic countries, but i always said what i tought, but in a more diplomatic way.

"I can only hope someday, that one of the genes on your Jewish DNA chromosomes bursts, and you are confronted in your own mind with the 4,000 plus year history of your ancestors, and the
pain and anguish they've suffered just trying to find a place to live without being ridiculed, oppressed, slaughtered and tortured. "

I feel Jewish in some way, and I don't feel ridiculised, oppressed, slaughtered or tortured in France. It happened in the past, but the Jewish people is not the only one on earth that suffered such hardships, we should never forget them, but we should look to the present and the future.

"Now, I'm waiting with baited breath - - please, please tell us all how the West Bank and Gaza Arabs, through no fault of thier own or that of their loving Arab brothers in nearby Middle East countries - - have suffered just as much as the Jewish People."

I didn't say they suffered as much as the jewish people during 1000's years of history, but they suffered more than the citizens of israel.

"Please say it again for me. I contantly need to be reminded of that there are a few Jews here and there who aren't especially bright (and, I'm not discriminating, because in the U.S., Hollywood has some too . . .). "

i think the ones resisting to the zionist lobby who claim to represent the worldwide jewish people, are the brightest ones... (i am not particularly bright myself, but i have some fine examples, as Chomsky, Finkelstein, and many more Jewish people who resisted to this system. luckily one of the main qualities of Jews is intelligence and independance, that's why you will find more Jewish opposition against zionism than Arab opposition against arab nationalism.

"You seem to blend several posters here into one person. I did as a matter of fact question the far too liberal usage of the term "Arab". I know this "criticizing-Israel-is-not-anisemitic" song all too well, the general assumption is that by criticizing Israel one acquires total immunity against anti-semitism accusations. "

no, some criticisers of israel are real anti-semites, who are against all Jews because they are jews, others, among wich Jews as well, are against the policy of oppression by israel.
sorry that i "blended" you, but sometimes your opinion is very similar to that of other posters on this forum; tell me, how did you learn to speak such splendid english, as a Jewish Russian living in Germany? for French people it's really a torture to speak English (and vice-versa)

"Again, if you want to argue against someone else, do so. Funny you should try to enlighten me of all people about racism in Germany, I am currently carrying my Sephardic face and my accent no one can identify here properly through the streets of this very country. No, Turks don't look "European", maybe "South European" but actually quite "foreign" here, and most Germans who don't know me think I'm "a kind of Turk". Yes, there is a lot of racism in Germany, which on its own hardly proves that there is none in France. "

that's right of course. there are not so many Turks here as in germany, but in general they look quite similar to Greek or Italian people, or even southern france, and some have a typical Russian face, as me too.(depends what region they come from) Here you can not always identify a Turk, Southern European(35% of French have spanish, Italian or Polish origin) or Eastern European, while you can in most cases identify someone with Arab blood ... which is a serious handicap for them. (it reduces their chances for finding work, that's a hard reality indeed, but still it is only in some cases, not general)
The Turkish community is strange, on the one hand they are hardly religious if at all, in general quite leftist, but they remain a very strong link with their land, their culture and their language, more than Arabs(even if their culture is much more European). They are extremely nationalistic, both the right-wing and left-wing Turks(who can't stand eachother), as all Balcans people.
(by the way they played terrific in the worldcup, the Turks, not France, the germans as usual are good but they play really dull)

"Have you ever bothered to ask the French human rights organisations? May I inform you that there exists an anti-racism movent in your country and that its members and leaders paint an entirely different picture. Need some links? "

of course, that's right. I do not participate in one of them, but they are doing a good job. I never said that there is no racism or race-related problems in France, but it is certainly not worse than in any other European country with the same amounts of different people. The fact the Le Pen and FN exist is an indication that all is not well, and that some things need to change. (mostly in the "banlieus")

"Do you have comparative statistics for the representation of minorities among the academic personnel and in top positions in the private economy? It would be quite interesting. "

i searched on the web, but didn't find any statistics for Paris.
but i have seen a publication by the interior ministry some years ago that said that in paris around 37% of the group of the highest wages were of non-European origin.
Also i know from my own experiences that people in responsible functions of state-owned or private companies, secretaries, lawyers, owners of large shops, university etc. are often of arab origin. (but of course compared to the jewish french they are seriously underrepresented)

http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/Aubry95a/index.html

(a site created by the maire of Lille and Michel Fingerhut to fight extreme right and explain immigration-related issues.)

takeo

06-19-2002, 06:08 PM

"Data? "

I don't know where to search on the net, yet it is a general impression, as mixed marriages seem to be less common in the states, where blacks, Arabs, Puertoricans, etc. will prefere to marry with their own kind and stay in the same neighbourhood, and you see less mixed couples on the streets than in france (however mixes between people of different european origin seems to be normal)
(however mostly in the big French cities, much less in the countryside)

"It's a kind of fashion among conservative parties right now to put minority representatives in high positions. A sort of development of "some of my best friends are Jews": look, how can you claim that some of our policies are discriminatory, we have an Arab (Turk, African or whatever) in our government (on our board of directors, in our party leadership etc.) "

maybe so, but at least it's a start, more will certainly follow, as they 're an important part of our society.

"So you are a Communist? Isn't racism an issue for your party anymore? Some of your German brethren, the PDS you have cited (not much of a political force on the whole btw.), are at least quite explicit on it. "

yes, of course it's an issue, that's why the PCF was one of the organisers of the big manifestations against Le Pen, which resulted in a defeat in the last parliamentory elections. we also work in neighboorhoods to organise better understanding and comprehension, and we demand more government-aid for poorer neighboorhoods. Racism is less a problem in cities governed by communists.
I tought the PDS was quite important in Germany, and still very important in Eastern Germany... I once met with Hans Modrow, and I saw Gisy some time ago in Paris on a conference, I think it's a party with capacities.

but my impression is that in germany people are much more serious about racism, i mean that many Germans really have a deeprooted fear/anxiety against foreigners, even if they won't say so, a feeling that doesn't exist in France. French have a "grande geule" ("big mouth") but they will far more easily invite people of a different background in their houses, as a friend, talk with them, or marry them. A French will make nasty comments about Arabs and boost that he voted for le Pen and the next moment invite one of them for coffee. I might be wrong, it is not scientific research, but that was my impression.

"I have a Taiwanese friend who spent a number of years in Germany and pines for it regularly. If he experienced racism, he has never mentioned it (or perhaps he doesn't want to mention it to me). I wonder if his experience is different from someone with a "southern European/Turkish" appearance, since there's no ambiguity as to his origins in his case. "

I never heard of racism against Chinese

=======
"As for the difficulties of Arab immigrants integrating into French society, I can see there would be difficulties on both sides. The cultures are so far apart and in terms of sheer numbers, the Arab immigrants would have reached a point where integration is not really necessary to be perfectly functional in day to day life. But I know relatively little about this, so will leave it to the experts."

I think integration is possible, and it's a fact in most French cities, many of the thirth generation blend in completely, don't go to Mosques and don't speak Arabic, i'm sure the 4th generation will cease to exist as a separate group as the Italians, Jewish, Spanish, Polish and all the others did who came here in the 19th or 20th century. Even the Africans and Asians are very well integrating, it's even painfull that they loose all their traditions.

" I do recall the controversy some years ago when the French education minister was attempting to prohibit high school girls from wearing a veil to class. What was the end result of that effort? It's interesting that Turkey will not allow women to wear the veil in class or in government positions, precisely because they fear Islamic fundamentalism will make inroads if this is allowed. Realistically, I don't see how Arab women can fully integrate into French society if they wear veils to school and work, and I would suspect that most Arab women who have integrated do not wear veils."

that's right, absolutely. I agree with this decision to prohibid veils, because religion is something that should be separated from education, and indeed it limits integration. but on the other hand maybe other methods would be better suited than pure prohibition, such as social pressure, media-campaigns, teachers informing the pupils over their rights, etc.

"Perhaps, the foreigner likes the family value, which many chinese woman stands for. Many man in HK are taken for granted. "

Oriental women :cool: the family values, OK, but more than than that i can assure you...

ps: sorry about the quality of my posts, i had some rough days...

cerulean

06-19-2002, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by takeo
sorry that i "blended" you, but sometimes your opinion is very similar to that of other posters on this forum

I know you posted this to Vic, but you also said something very similar to me a few weeks ago! Truly, all the pro-Israel posters are quite different. Maybe make a chart with our distinguishing characteristics :-).

Originally posted by takeo
I don't know where to search on the net, yet it is a general impression, as mixed marriages seem to be less common in the states, where blacks, Arabs, Puertoricans, etc. will prefere to marry with their own kind and stay in the same neighbourhood, and you see less mixed couples on the streets than in france (however mixes between people of different european origin seems to be normal)
(however mostly in the big French cities, much less in the countryside)

Mixed marriages (however you want to define this, but let's say "color") are very common on the west coast of the United States. Actually, I'd say mixed relationships, because marriage is less and less popular. I read a few years ago that Seattle has more mixed-race relationships than any city in the US. Have your travels included the West Coast?

As of 1997, one in seven children born in California is now classified as "mixed-race" (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/09/connerly/index_np.html). See also http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/070400ca-latin.html. But as you know, race and ethnicity are quite imprecise terms. No one is "pure" anything.

Originally posted by takeo
but my impression is that in germany people are much more serious about racism, i mean that many Germans really have a deeprooted fear/anxiety against foreigners, even if they won't say so, a feeling that doesn't exist in France. French have a "grande geule" ("big mouth") but they will far more easily invite people of a different background in their houses, as a friend, talk with them, or marry them. A French will make nasty comments about Arabs and boost that he voted for le Pen and the next moment invite one of them for coffee. I might be wrong, it is not scientific research, but that was my impression.

I've been told something very similar. Also that French are definitely more anti-Semitic than Germans. However, Germans, having a particular type of collective personality that drives them to take actions on their beliefs, ended up being the perpetrators of the Holocaust, although their hatred of Jews was not as great as the French. (This is not my analysis, but how it has been explained to me.)

Originally posted by takeo
that's right, absolutely. I agree with this decision to prohibid veils, because religion is something that should be separated from education, and indeed it limits integration. but on the other hand maybe other methods would be better suited than pure prohibition, such as social pressure, media-campaigns, teachers informing the pupils over their rights, etc.

All of these latter methods take a much longer time and are not as effective as outright enforcement. Despite the fact that I am in favor of women's rights and being against Islamic fundamentalism, I do worry about the possible psychic trauma that this prohibition might have on the girls. On the other hand, maybe this is the only effective response and the girls will benefit in many ways. I would like be interested to know how Arab women (or other women) in France are doing in terms of professional careers.

Originally posted by takeo
ps: sorry about the quality of my posts, i had some rough days...

Just so long as you have a sudden pro-Israel revelation in the midst of your suffering, I hope your rough days are over shortly :-)
(Even so, I hope they are.)

takeo

06-20-2002, 05:23 AM

"I know you posted this to Vic, but you also said something very similar to me a few weeks ago! Truly, all the pro-Israel posters are quite different. Maybe make a chart with our distinguishing characteristics :-). "

OK, that might be a good idea ;)
i know the different background of each poster, but the subtle differences in opinion are sometimes more difficult to detect (except some obvious cases of course...)

"Mixed marriages (however you want to define this, but let's say "color") are very common on the west coast of the United States. Actually, I'd say mixed relationships, because marriage is less and less popular. I read a few years ago that Seattle has more mixed-race relationships than any city in the US. Have your travels included the West Coast? "

I have never been there, a good idea for the future... all people i know who went there said it is the most fun and advancing part of the US, with a very nice and diverse climate (except Seattle i heard). I can imagine it is quite different from states as Oklahoma. Before i went there, i was not aware that regional differences in the US do exist as well.
I tought the NorthEastern part of the US was the most liberal;
What races live in the Westcoast? Blacks, latino's, asians???

"But as you know, race and ethnicity are quite imprecise terms. No one is "pure" anything. "

That's right, certainly not in France or the US.

"I've been told something very similar. Also that French are definitely more anti-Semitic than Germans. However, Germans, having a particular type of collective personality that drives them to take actions on their beliefs, ended up being the perpetrators of the Holocaust, although their hatred of Jews was not as great as the French. (This is not my analysis, but how it has been explained to me.) "

i don't think french are more anti-semitic than Germans, if so than anti-semitism in Germany should be virtually non-existant.
anti-semitism is for obvious reasons a taboo-subject in Germany, so it's difficult to know.
In the past both Germany and France had stronger anti-semitism, in both countries anti-semitism was the exclusive field of the right-wing, but i think anti-semitism was stronger in Germany, the anti-semite policy of the Vichy-government and the nazi-occupier was actively combatted by the majority of the french, many families here have stories of how they helped Jews to escape to Spain or Switserland or hide them in their houses, monasteries, etc. in all documentories about WWII you can see that the jews did trust French citizens much more than Germans, who in general very loyal to the nazi-regime. You are right about the collective personality, german people are much more law-obiding than French.
But i think anti-semitism in both Germany and France were still low compared to Romania, Poland or pre-revolutionnary Russia.

"All of these latter methods take a much longer time and are not as effective as outright enforcement. Despite the fact that I am in favor of women's rights and being against Islamic fundamentalism, I do worry about the possible psychic trauma that this prohibition might have on the girls. On the other hand, maybe this is the only effective response and the girls will benefit in many ways. I would like be interested to know how Arab women (or other women) in France are doing in terms of professional careers. "

yes, it's not an easy decision, but i think ultimately indeed prohibition will benefit them on the long run.
Women in France are very emancipated, and almost all women have a job, even most Arab ones (but less than the majority of French). It is true however that the highest posts are still usually occupied by men, even if it's changing fast. But women, and particularly arab women, are doing great in education, according to research the majority of graduates are women, and the majority of arab girls start higher education and find easily a highstanding job, in fact more easily than Arab men, who have a bad reputation.
But in the house, in both arab and ordinary french households, the woman is still responsible for the daily duties.
For the first generation Arabs here it is difficult to deal with their liberated daughter or grand-daughter or daughter-in-law who likes to wear mini-skirts etc., that's why they prefere them to marry with someone from the home-land, but such marriages usually fail because of the difference in culture.

"Just so long as you have a sudden pro-Israel revelation in the midst of your suffering, I hope your rough days are over shortly :-)
(Even so, I hope they are.)"

thanks, I sometimes have pro-israeli revelations but i won't post them because it would ruin my reputation on this forum :)

cerulean

06-20-2002, 05:06 PM

In short, yes the West Coast has many diverse climates, most of them great. You'll find every race, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion represented. It's not really comparable to Oklahoma other than that the population is American.

As for your hidden pro-Israel revelations, I guess forum members will have to start applying reverse psychology :).

elke

06-21-2002, 06:29 PM

A billboard at the Port Authority Bus Terminal in New York (advertising a ski resort):

"More flakes than LA (Los Angeles)!" :D

(Actually, I thought LA to be great! :) Didn't notice any extra flakes, either)

takeo

06-21-2002, 07:22 PM

LOL :)

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 09:05 PM

i don't think french are more anti-semitic than Germans

Other than that Mrs. Kennedy, how was the motorcade?

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
In short, yes the West Coast has many diverse climates, most of them great. You'll find every race, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion represented. It's not really comparable to Oklahoma other than that the population is American.

And that not having F5 tornadoes thing - of course you do have the full complement of 4 seasons: mudslides, drought, fires, surfing.

Come to North Carolina! not too many twisters, not too many hurricanes and July is fine if you grew up in the Mekong Delta.

elke

06-21-2002, 09:26 PM

North Carolina is also very pretty, but it has a very crazy Insurance Department, - so no, I don't think I'll go. :D

cerulean

06-21-2002, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
And that not having F5 tornadoes thing - of course you do have the full complement of 4 seasons: mudslides, drought, fires, surfing.

You didn't mention earthquakes (although those aren't quite seasonal). There are the Seattle and Portland climates too which have variations something like cloudy, grey, misty, and rainy. (But the summers are nice.)

Come to North Carolina! not too many twisters, not too many hurricanes and July is fine if you grew up in the Mekong Delta.

I think my brain shuts off once the mercury rises above 80 degrees.

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 09:55 PM

That's us May-October. Humidity in the 40-75% range. Heat index in July is 115-125. 10 days over 90 so far, 98 the high @50% RH.

takeo

06-22-2002, 04:44 AM

I would love to live in north-Carolina for the climate (i like hot and humid, and some hurricanes to spice things up ;) the weather really sucks in Paris, I guess it must be pretty similar to the seattle climate :mad: ), if it wasn't for the people living there in the "baptist belt"!!!
california should be nice too, altough my niece was really disappointed in the climate in SF ("worse than Paris") altough some miles further it suddenly changes into hot desert! i heard that the climate is totally different depending where you live in SF, you can choose desert or humid and cold depending on the neighboorhood... i wish we had that here too...the climate is the worst consequence of living in northern Europe.
(by the way if you think that Southern france, Algeria or Tunisia is nice in winter, think twice) The climate in Oklahoma was nice, it reminds me of Southern Russia (the weather and landscape, not the people for God's sake!).

elke

06-22-2002, 06:36 AM

What?!! Baptist belt in Paris? What a concept! :D

And what's wrong with the people in Southern Russia?

Don't mind me - I'm just in a weird mood :)

takeo

06-22-2002, 09:30 PM

"And what's wrong with the people in Southern Russia? "

nothing, on the contrary, that's exactly what i mean :D

cerulean

06-23-2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by takeo

california should be nice too, altough my niece was really disappointed in the climate in SF ("worse than Paris") altough some miles further it suddenly changes into hot desert! i heard that the climate is totally different depending where you live in SF, you can choose desert or humid and cold depending on the neighboorhood... i wish we had that here too...the climate is the worst consequence of living in northern Europe.

Of course you can get just about any climate at all in California. On the northwest coast (like Eureka) you can get nonstop rain worse than just about anywhere. San Francisco is my favorite city in California! (Much as I hate to admit it, I really like Berkeley too.) The climate has been nice every time I've been there. You're right that the particular neighborhood in San Francisco makes a huge difference and you can get all sorts of different weather just traveling around for an hour or two.

Maybe your niece was unlucky, or we have different definitions of "nice." I like anything not too hot, usually. (You strike me as being very young to be an uncle. I hope you are being a good philosophical influence on your niece ;) )

takeo

06-23-2002, 05:13 AM

maybe i should say "cousin" rather than niece, the Americans were crazy about her, and not ONLY for her accent I presume... (but as well the Arabs, i guess in this case surprisingly few are anti-semitic :D )
My definition of nice weather is hot, so i enjoy the us during summertime!

elke

06-23-2002, 07:31 AM

If you like hot, then the great state of Texas may be for you! :D

The company I used to work for had a branch in Texas, and I spoke to my counterparts there on a daily basis. Every time I asked them, the temperature was outrageous! They also have a very pleasant, to my ear anyway, accent - and are generally very nice, (unless the manager of that branch simply had a knack for picking 'em) :)

christian

06-23-2002, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by takeo
maybe i should say "cousin" rather than niece, the Americans were crazy about her, and not ONLY for her accent I presume... (but as well the Arabs, i guess in this case surprisingly few are anti-semitic :D )
My definition of nice weather is hot, so i enjoy the us during summertime!

You mean your cousin is hotter than 80 degrees C. :eek: :D

takeo

06-23-2002, 10:41 AM

yes, who knows I might fall in love with Texas :eek:
But than of course all the usual things people think about Texans should be untrue...
I went to the other side, near the border in Monterrey, if texas is anything like it, than yes i like it, and yes, it is vey hot!
cerulean if you like anything not too hot, than Paris might be perfect for you...

elke

06-23-2002, 10:45 AM

I'll tell you what: I will give you the name and address of the company I worked for, and you can meet the nice Texans that way. Just be forewarned: this was a company owned and operated by the Episcopal Church! ;)

takeo

06-23-2002, 01:17 PM

I see, it's fun down there in Texas ;)
A communist working for a Texan episcopal company...

elke

06-23-2002, 01:27 PM

Shush! Bite your tongue! Me? A Communist? The closest I ever came was watching the Teletubbies with my daughter a few years back! ;)

takeo

06-23-2002, 04:03 PM

are the teletubbies commies? :eek:

elke

06-23-2002, 04:28 PM

Not really, but I saw some superb satire that called them... Commietubbies - and even made it convincing! :D

takeo

06-23-2002, 04:30 PM

great, would love to see that... I love American satire

elke

06-23-2002, 04:32 PM

Here it is... Remember, you asked for it! :)

http://members.tripod.com/~Telecommie/

takeo

06-23-2002, 04:35 PM

LOL :p

"Not since the controversial early episodes of Zoom has a childrens' television program generated as much debate as Teletubbies, the British show featuring four seemingly lovable little critters. Are they hallucinogenic? Is their endless baby-talk stunting the vocal development of a generation's worth of kids? Are they (gasp) gay?
Who cares? All this meaningless talk only serves to mask a much more serious problem: the myriad of subliminal pro-communist messages this so-called "educational show" uses to bombard our unsuspecting children, the ones most susceptible to its siren call. Skeptical? Read on, and judge for yourself. "

it reminds me of this post zionism=communism... (the difference that the other one was not intended to be funny...)

elke

06-23-2002, 04:42 PM

Pay special attention to Dipsy :D

Vic

06-23-2002, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by elke
Here it is... Remember, you asked for it! :)

http://members.tripod.com/~Telecommie/
Magnificient!
ROFL

takeo

06-23-2002, 05:24 PM

"Dipsy (Representing the Green-backed socialist coalition governments of modern-day Europe): Dipsy is the second biggest Teletubby [Europe's socialist economy is second in size only to that of the U.S.]. He is known for his distinctive steps and ways of saying "hello." [Coalition organizations must proceed with caution -- on tiptoes, as it were -- and employ diplomatic rhetoric or face dissolution.] He loves his hat very much [a clear reference to the EU, "covering" Europe with a common currency]. Dipsy sings a song with a reggae beat [reggae remains popular in England, which with its long dole lines and endless strikes, remains perhaps the best example of socialism by coalition] and when he is feeling "especially cool" will go for a walk by himself, wearing his hat and singing the song [Again, "The Internationale"]. "

:D

"A 'Tubby' Ache For Jerry Falwell
Religious Right Leader Sees Gay Threat in Children's TV Character"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-02/11/274l-021199-idx.html

one can say a lot about yankees, but for sure they are funny people!

Mediocrates

06-23-2002, 05:39 PM

"how can anyone run a country with 350 different kinds of cheese"

-De Gaulle

takeo

06-23-2002, 05:45 PM

LOL :D

especially if you hate cheese...

cerulean

06-23-2002, 05:45 PM

I read a while ago it was all the rage in Britain to watch Teletubbies as part of the process of coming down from taking E and clubbing.

Can't let that go without a reference, so here is one:
Originally from the NYT, but posted at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6g0qva%24fnp%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com&oe=UTF8&output=gplain )
....Teenagers, according to hip magazines for the young, like to come home for all-night ecstasy-fueled raves, switch on "Teletubbies" (the series is shown in Britain early on weekday and Sunday mornings) and deconstruct what they see as encoded druggie messages, as if it were the 1960s and they were listening to "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." And in September, when the produces dismissed Dave Thompson, the actor who originally played Tinky Winky and who was known, apparently, for waving his handbag in a particualrly flamboyant manner, Thompson's situation became national news....

elke

06-23-2002, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
I read a while ago it was all the rage in Britain to watch Teletubbies as part of the process of coming down from taking E and clubbing.

Can't let that go without a reference, so here is one:
Originally from the NYT, but posted at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6g0qva%24fnp%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com&oe=UTF8&output=gplain )
....Teenagers, according to hip magazines for the young, like to come home for all-night ecstasy-fueled raves, switch on "Teletubbies" (the series is shown in Britain early on weekday and Sunday mornings) and deconstruct what they see as encoded druggie messages, as if it were the 1960s and they were listening to "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." And in September, when the produces dismissed Dave Thompson, the actor who originally played Tinky Winky and who was known, apparently, for waving his handbag in a particualrly flamboyant manner, Thompson's situation became national news....

Yes, "Teletubbies are the opium for the people" :D

L@mplighterM

06-23-2002, 08:26 PM

Par of article:

Israel and the Anti-Semites
by Gabriel Schoenfeld

LET US begin at the popular level, where there has been, first of all, a rash of physical attacks on Jewish symbols, Jewish institutions, and Jews themselves. The list of such violent incidents from the first two weeks of April alone is too long to summarize adequately.

In the Ukrainian capital of Kiev, for example, some 50 youths chanting “Kill the Jews” descended on a synagogue on a Saturday evening, broke twenty windows, and beat the rector of the religious school with stones. In Greece, Jewish cemeteries were vandalized in what the press termed “anti-Jewish acts of revenge,” and the Holocaust memorial in Salonika, a city whose 50,000 Jews were rounded up and deported to Nazi death camps in 1943, was defaced with Palestinian slogans. In Slovakia, Jewish cemeteries were desecrated in what an official described as the “biggest attack on the Jewish community since the Holocaust.”

In peaceful, democratic, law-abiding Western Europe—a part of the world that for the past half-century has prided itself on the degree of personal safety it affords its inhabitants—the story was similar. One scene of violent anti-Israel demonstrations was Holland, where protestors hurled rocks and bottles and small roving bands used stones and bicycles to shatter store windows in the heart of Amsterdam. In neighboring Belgium, five firebombs were tossed into a synagogue in a working-class district of Brussels, and a Jewish bookstore was severely damaged by arsonists; a synagogue in Antwerp was firebombed with Molotov cocktails, and in the same city a travel agency specializing in trips to Israel was also set alight.

In Germany, two Orthodox Jews were beaten while strolling on Berlin’s chic Kurfuerstendamm, the heart of the city’s shopping district. A woman wearing a star-of-David necklace was attacked in the subway. Jewish memorials in Berlin were defaced with swastikas; a synagogue was spray-painted with the words, “Six Million Is Not Enough. PLO.” Anti-Israel demonstrators hurled bricks through windows as they marched.

In England, reported the London Express, “race-hate attacks on the Jewish community have soared.” In the first ten days of April there were fifteen anti-Semitic incidents, including eight physical assaults. Most of the attacks in England were on Jews walking alone, set upon and beaten by small roving bands. At least two of the victims required hospitalization.

France was the epicenter of aggression. Gangs of hooded men descended on Jewish victims and struck them with iron clubs. Buses carrying Jewish schoolchildren were stoned. Cemeteries were desecrated. Synagogues, Jewish schools, student facilities, and kosher stores were defaced, battered, and firebombed. On April 1, the Or Aviv synagogue in Marseille was burned to the ground, its prayerbooks and Torah scrolls consumed by flames; it was one of five synagogues in France attacked. The first half of the month saw “nearly 360 crimes against Jews and Jewish institutions,” according to the French interior ministry—amounting, in the words of the New York Times, to “the worst spate of anti-Jewish violence” in France since World War II.

Some observers have drawn comparisons between this violent crime wave and Kristallnacht—the pogrom unleashed by the Nazis against German Jews on November 9 and 10, 1938. Unlike in the 1930’s, however, there was no organized power behind the assaults, let alone a government, and in every European country the police, so far as one knows, did their duty (though the political authorities often stood aside until matters threatened to get out of control). Still, physical violence against Jews has undeniably become a pan-European phenomenon, visible in every country north and south, east and west. Everywhere one turns, moreover, this physical violence has been accompanied, and abetted, by an explosion of verbal violence.

The themes are also the same everywhere. Israel, a country victimized by terrorism, stands accused of perpetrating terrorism; the Jews, having suffered the most determined and thoroughgoing genocide in history, stand accused of perpetrating genocide. The language in which these accusations are leveled is extravagantly hateful, drawn from the vocabulary of World War II and the Holocaust but entirely and grotesquely inverted, with the Jews as Nazis and their Arab tormentors in the role of helpless