Nearly 360 attacks against Jews in France - Part 2 [Archive]

takeo

05-13-2002, 12:50 AM

i agree with belgium and evolution.
Yes, ok belgium, you're right about the flower power and Vietnam, but that seems to be a long time ago... Not only since 11/9 but since many years the us doesn't seem to care about victims on the other side, maybe since the us-media decided not to show any films anymore of victims at the other side???

Kinetic,

"The point is that Europe has steadily attempted to appease aggressors instead of stopping the aggression"

so what? The US has never stopped aggression either. by the way in many cases the us was the agressor without being attacked first. we deal with terrorism in two ways, trying to see the cause of this terrorism(unequality, national question,s etc. as in northern ireland) and second, if no other possibility is possible, fighting terror with counter-terror.

"Palestine is not actually a country, by definition. It is a territory that was gained by Israel in a war started by Arabs. Also Israel has not targeted civilians, as was the case in the former Yugoslavia. Which once again, the US had to step in to handle because of the appeasement tactics of the EU. "

LOL, just look on the websites of HRW or AI to see a nice report of many israeli war crimes in the past and present. And 1967 was a war started by Israel by "pre-emptive strikes" by the way, and you can not GAIN a territory by international law, even if you win a war.

"Haven't you noticed yet, that history is written by the victors? If the US had not reconquered your country for your grandfather, Nazi Germany would have written what little history you know. "

that's right, but than don't claim to be unbiased. By the way if the nazi's won the war i would have never been born.

"Prisons in the US and Israel are not inhumane. Criminals get more criminal as you put it, from socializing with other criminals. That whole sharing of ideas thing. One last thought on prison.
IT'S PRISON, PEOPLE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO LIKE IT! "

OK, but you don't have to make it a hell either. in our prisons we have reconversion-programms so people can have a new chance when they come free.

"Who do you think reconverted Germany and Japan? The same country that has already budgeted 750 million dollars for this year alone to rebuild Afganistan. That is compassion, and the christian thing to do. "

LOL, as usual Europe has to pay the "reconstruction" in Afghanistan, while you guys payed the destruction... the us destroyed things in Afghanistan for over 50 billion $, so 750 million $ is peanuts. By the way about germany and Japan this had nothing to do with compassion but with real politics and cold war, they didn't want germany and japan to become communist sympatisers!

"Your last statement implies that you sanction the 11th of September attack on the United States. I find that quite repulsive. How exactly can you condone the deaths of over 3000 people who could have cared less about Islam/Muslims/Osama Bin Laden/the Mideast?"

If you read my posts carefully you should notice that i am not thinking at all that the attacks on 11/9 were ok, i said they were a reaction to us-policy in the world, but not a justified or legal reaction (as well as the suicide-bombings in israel against civilians are wrong but a reaction to israeli wrong policy)

"Takeo consistently mentions that the Palestinians are at war with Israel. If that is the case, then civilians are fair game for both sides. If Israel were to act in fashion similar to the Palestinians, Israel would roll into the Gaza Strip and begin blasting buildings and any visible person, without regard to age, gender or role in acts of terror. As any country would do during a war. Simply remember WWII for examples of this.
Or should young Jews attack Arabs in a similar fashion, because of their frustration with events in the holy land? Probably not, as half the Jews in France would be in French prisons, getting "reconverted"."

What do you think Sharon did in Jenin? But on the contrary to what you think this is not a legitimised way of having war but this are war-crimes, not any country would act like this in a war, just read the Geneva-conventions.
Jews in France don't do such things because they generally are very moderate and not very pro-israeli, at least most don't support the occupation-policy and know israel is to blame as well for th current problems.

L@mplighterM

05-17-2002, 03:42 PM

Left-wing extremists tried to storm Israeli embassy in London

By Sharon Sadeh, Ha'aretz Correspndent

Security forces turned back about 20 left-wing extremists who stormed the Israeli embassy in London on Monday and attempted to enter the building. The incident was reported on Friday because the embassy decided to try to keep the incident out of the press.

Scotland Yard said Friday that at 1:50 P.M. on Monday, British police were dispatched to the Israeli embassy when some 20 or more demonstrators attempted to scale the fence surrounding the compound. After police arrived, the demonstrators were alarmed and left the area. One man, in his twenties, received medical treatment at the scene. London police took no additional action in the matter.

Complete article:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165169&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

takeo

05-18-2002, 02:21 AM

that is not anti-semitism but antizionism or just against the current policy of the israeli government.

Morpheus

05-18-2002, 03:38 AM

Anti-semitism would be walking around with Swastika's. In Europe, the Swastika is an illegal symbol. If someone would carry a swastika, he would lose all respect. In the US (NYC) there are still protestors who seem to enjoy walking around with Swastika's, they think it will benefit the Palestinian people by calling Jews Nazi's.

Check out the ADL site ww.adl.org and see where the real anti-semites are. In the US, not in Euroland, and certainly not in France.

@Takeo

Zionism is NOT the same as semitism. Semitism is a science which investigates everything related to the Jewish people, thus a non Jew can be semite as well. Anti-semitism means you don't recognise the state of Israel, you deny the holocaust and so on. Zionism is the opposite of anti-semitism, semitism is not. There's no such thing as anti-zionism. It doesn't exist. But the term "anti-semitism" has been used wrongly by Israeli sympathysers who seem to enjoy calling everyone neo-nazi who questions Israeli's latest military campaigns.

@Lamp,

NOT all left-wingers are extremists. And if you really are so informed, you probably also know that many EU-embassies (in particular the Belgian one) were also stormed by Israeli right wingers.

takeo

05-18-2002, 04:04 AM

"Zionism is NOT the same as semitism. Semitism is a science which investigates everything related to the Jewish people, thus a non Jew can be semite as well. "

I think a semite is someone with semitic blood, that means an Arab, Berber or Jew in its large definition, in its small definition it means a Jew.

"Anti-semitism means you don't recognise the state of Israel, you deny the holocaust and so on. "

Wrong you can not accept the state of Israel and still you will not necessarily be an anti-semite. The state of israel is a creation of zionism, it is not bcause you don't agree with that that you are against all jews in the world (=anti-semitism) . Actually some jews are against the creation of israel.

"Zionism is the opposite of anti-semitism, semitism is not."

not true, semitism, doesn't exist, that's right, but anti-semitism is certainly not the opposite of zionism. You can be against anti-semitism and against zionism as well.

" There's no such thing as anti-zionism. It doesn't exist. But the term "anti-semitism" has been used wrongly by Israeli sympathysers who seem to enjoy calling everyone neo-nazi who questions Israeli's latest military campaigns. "

I think anti-zionism exist, it has indeed been wrongly used (not all people criticising the occupation are against the idea of zionism) as well as the word anti-semitism (not everyone criticising the policy of israel is anti-semitic) but if you think Israel has no right to exist and jews should not have their own land in palestine than you are an anti-zionist. (which doesn't mean you are for the extermination of Jews, maybe you think Jews should go back to Europe and other countries where they came from and live there among the other populations) .
Me, i'm, in theory, not for the idea of a separate country for the jewish people, on the condition that they have full rights as a minority in all the countries they live in, but i know that the state of israel is a fact and that most israeli are born in israel and have no more links to the countries of their parents or grand-parents. So a new people is born, and that people will have to find a solution for their problem with the original inhabitants in the region they live in.

Morpheus

05-18-2002, 04:18 AM

You can oppese the idea of an Israeli state, I agree, that doesn't mean your an anti-semite. I also don't think a nation which calls itself a democracy should be build on religion. But if you deny the state of israel, than you're anti-semite. Israel is a state, there are people living in it ... Arab nations should finally accept that Israel is a state and it has a right to live their peacefully.

Vic

05-18-2002, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Morpheus
Semitism is a science which investigates everything related to the Jewish people
Never heard of it

Morpheus

05-18-2002, 04:30 AM

Semitic /sI"mIt.Ik, s@"mI-/ adjective [not gradable]
relating to the Arab and Jewish races or their languages
Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages.
See also anti-Semitic at anti-.
Related words
Semitic can also refer to races such as the Babylonians and Phoenicians that existed in ancient times.
Related words
Sometimes Semitic refers only to Jews.
Related words

Anti-Semitism is the strong dislike or cruel and unfair treatment of Jewish people.

Zionism /"zaI@.nI.z@m/ noun [U]
a political movement which had as its original aim the creation of a country for Jewish people, and which now works to help the development of Israel

Vic

05-18-2002, 06:11 AM

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Semitism

NOUN:
1. A Semitic word or idiom. 2. Semitic traits, attributes, or customs. 3. A policy or predisposition in favor of Jews.

takeo

05-18-2002, 06:54 AM

ok, well maybe it exists, but it isn't used a lot.

you don't call someoene "semitist"

Vic

05-18-2002, 07:29 AM

It was new to me too. The point is, there is no "science" of this description.

cerulean

05-18-2002, 09:46 AM

CAIRO, Egypt - A man identified as an al-Qaida leader has claimed responsibility for last month's attack on a Tunisian synagogue that killed 19 people and vowed to attack Americans soon, a pan-Arab newspaper reported Saturday.

...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020518/ap_wo_en_ge/attacks_al_qaida_interview_1

Mediocrates

05-18-2002, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by takeo
that is not anti-semitism but antizionism or just against the current policy of the israeli government.

..because anyone who's not Jewish and not Israeli and a fervant zionist is also the target of similar attacks....

L@mplighterM

05-19-2002, 11:33 AM

May. 19, 2002
Explosion damages door, shatters windows at Quebec City's lone synagogue
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

A pre-dawn explosion Sunday at the only synagogue in Quebec City damaged the front door and shattered glass, but caused no injuries, police said.

One man was arrested in connection with the blast apparently caused by an incendiary device at the vacant synagogue in the capital of Quebec, Canada's Francophone province, according to police.

Quebec Premier Bernard Landry called the province's Canadian Jewish Congress to express his distress and offer help.

The explosion was the latest in a series of attacks on synagogues in Canada this year, including a fire at a downtown Toronto synagogue that damaged 2,000 religious texts, some dating to the 1860s. No injuries have been reported.

Complete article:

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813212920

Vic

05-19-2002, 12:01 PM

May. 19, 2002
Explosion damages door, shatters windows at Quebec City's lone synagogue
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

Originally posted by takeo
that is not anti-semitism but antizionism or just against the current policy of the israeli government.
...too, I suppose. Someone spotted the Star of David in there and felt offended by it, an understandable aberration...

Mediocrates

05-19-2002, 04:07 PM

takeo -

I guess because there is a sufficiently large enough population of NON Jewish zionist/Israelist organizations, individuals, facilities that are firebombed to make it not a Jewish issue.

Do you think about what you write before you write it or is today medication-free Sunday?

takeo

05-19-2002, 05:57 PM

"..because anyone who's not Jewish and not Israeli and a fervant zionist is also the target of similar attacks...."

YES, just one example: three weeks ago the French autor Jacques Moureau received death-treats by unknown persons because of his die-hard pro-israeli positions;
He is not Jew nor israeli...

firebombing synagogues is clearly an act of anti-semitism, this synagogue is not responsible for the acts of the israeli government, but attacking the israeli embassy for example(representation of the state of israel and its policy) is clearly an act of disagrement with the current israeli policy.

"Do you think about what you write before you write it or is today medication-free Sunday?"

actually it are alcohol-free views everyday except saterday eve :)

Morpheus

05-20-2002, 02:47 AM

If you are a Jew, a zionist living in France, but you don't have the Israeli nationality, I see no reason why you should complain. The hypocrisy of certain Jews living in Europe ... they are pro-Israeli, they support Israel, they don't want their gov't to criticise Israel (like in France) ... in that case, there's only one option : move to Israel and leave Europe behind. If you are European, than you must understand that Jews are a minority, just like Islam, they have no advantages over other people (unlike Israel, which is a Zionist-Jewish state), and are considered to be equal. This has nothing to do with anti-semitism. I understand that certain people rather live in Israel than in Europe because they feel more accepted over there. Although most Jews like to stay in Europe :
1. safety, no suicide attacks in pubs
2. maybe all that **** about anti-semitism in Europe is exagerated. Most Jews living in Europe feel fine, accepted, probably even more than Arabs. Hostility towards Arabs is more common than towards Jews.

Also, I would add something. My first concern is my nationality, not my religion. I'm a Christian living in Europe, but I have the same nationality as a Jew living here.

BTW, I'm not speaking about personnal attacks on Jews in Europe by skinheads etc. This should not be tolerated and just as in the US, gov't should take actions.

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 05:46 AM

"The hypocrisy of certain Jews living in Europe ... they are pro-Israeli, they support Israel, they don't want their gov't to criticise Israel (like in France) ... in that case, there's only one option : move to Israel and leave Europe behind."

Love it or leave it. OK I get it, really I do. Nice words from Tolerance-istan.

Morpheus

05-20-2002, 09:42 AM

What does this have to do with tolerance??

Everybody here is always wining about those Europeans. Well, if you hate it that much that you can't live there anymore, than there's only one option: leave!

Maybe life for Jewish peope ain't that bad here after all. That's why so many people prefer to stay in Europe and not move to Israel.

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Morpheus
What does this have to do with tolerance??

Everybody here is always wining about those Europeans. Well, if you hate it that much that you can't live there anymore, than there's only one option: leave!

Maybe life for Jewish peope ain't that bad here after all. That's why so many people prefer to stay in Europe and not move to Israel.

If the Palestinians hate it so much they'd rather die maybe they should pull up stakes and move somewhere else.

Morpheus

05-20-2002, 09:54 AM

I don't think you can compare the Jews in Europe with the Palestinians in Israel. The Jews here are not threatened by their gov't, we don't bulldozer whole house blocks of a Jewish neighbourhoud because there might be a terrorist hidden there.

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 11:52 AM

But the thought process is the same, no? If you don't like it, then move.

Better to be an oppressed Frenchman and an unhappy one than stand up for your rights.

takeo

05-20-2002, 03:17 PM

i agree 100% with morpheus.
No single French Jew is oppressed and they have exactly the same rights as any other French (they can criticise the French government as Le Pen-supporters can too, but they can not expect the french government to take a 100% pro-israel attitude because they want so, that is very different from "oppressing jews"). (by the way most French Jews don't support israel 100%)

takeo

05-20-2002, 03:19 PM

i don't think palestinians in the occupied territories had the same rights as French Jews during the 35 years of oppression...
if not i would now live in israel.

Vic

05-20-2002, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by takeo
i agree 100% with morpheus.
No single French Jew is oppressed and they have exactly the same rights as any other French (they can criticise the French government as Le Pen-supporters can too, but they can not expect the french government to take a 100% pro-israel attitude because they want so, that is very different from "oppressing jews"). (by the way most French Jews don't support israel 100%)
Sounds fine.
Just one problem: why doesn't France take Jews from other countries in?

takeo

05-20-2002, 04:18 PM

they did in the past, a lot, but now the laws are equal for all foreigners who want to immigrate to France and don't have ancestry in France. (however as a Jew I think you may still have more chance of being accepted, for sure if someone has a higher skill of education)

Mediocrates

05-20-2002, 04:54 PM

Now they have immigration laws with hard numbers like every other industrialised country. It is nearly impossible for a French company to hire a foreign skilled worker, for example if that person is not an EUer already.

The converse of that is Canada, though my Canadian friends hate it when I say it, their country more or less sells citizenship to foreign nationals who can afford to dump several hundred thousand dollars in a business or in escrow. Voila instant ex-Hong Kong citizenship!

At any rate no country simply takes in people with the exception of Israel. The US hasn't welcomed people with open arms since before WW1, whatever the Statue of Liberty says.

L@mplighterM

05-20-2002, 09:39 PM

British Jews brace for possible outbreak of suicide bombings
Ha'aretz | Last update - 09:26 20/05/2002 | By Sharon Sadeh, Ha'aretz Correspondent

LONDON - British Jews recently began an organized effort to prepare for a possible outbreak of suicide terrorism, but those involved decided to keep the effort under wraps to avoid causing panic.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165955&contrassbID=1&subContrassID=5&sbSuContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Morpheus

05-21-2002, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Vic

Sounds fine.
Just one problem: why doesn't France take Jews from other countries in?

All Jews have the right to get the French nationality just like everybody else on this planet if they are legalised and if they have a permission to stay in the EU. But what do you expect France to do? To ask all Jews to come to France? Believe me, there are people who are suffering a lot more than the Jewish people. These should be helped first, like the people in Kosovo, Afghanistan. They are the ones who should get asylum, because they are political refugees.

In Europe we have more refugees than in the US. Sure, there are some people crossing the Mexican-US border to start a better life, but the laws on immigration in the US are more severe than in the EU. Untill recently, it was easy for a foreigner to get the EU-nationality, but after the Kosovo-crisis, regulations were getting much tighter.

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 10:14 AM

In Europe we have more refugees than in the US.

You have more local/regional wars too, which is probably the root cause.

Sure, there are some people crossing the Mexican-US border to start a better life

About 1 million a year. Could you absorb that?

but the laws on immigration in the US are more severe than in the EU.

Do you have anything substantive about that or just a general vague sense that you're good people and we are not?

Until recently, it was easy for a foreigner to get the EU-nationality, but after the Kosovo-crisis, regulations were getting much tighter.

Freedom and grace are nice things to talk about except when someone actually needs it. Then it's no longer official policy.

Morpheus

05-21-2002, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
[b]
Freedom and grace are nice things to talk about except when someone actually needs it. Then it's no longer official policy.

Someone who's seeking political asylum will get it ASAP. But there are also thousands of economic refugees who also want EU-nationality. As much as we like to help these people, it's impossible.

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 10:29 AM

How easy, what are the criteria and how many were accepted/rejected? From which countries? what are the criteria for determining that a coutry can generate political refugees? what is the distinction between a political refugee and and an emigree?

Morpheus

05-21-2002, 11:06 AM

Criteria. Well, a good question. Maybe the regimes where they come from? Someone from Afghanistan would get asylum without too much problems, but what about someone from the Ukrain for example. Ukraine is not a whealty country, lots of poverty. We can donate money to the Ukrainian gov't, but that's about it. We can't allow all Ukrainians to come here because here living standards are higher. It's tough, I know, but you should draw the line somewhere. I think you will agree with me on this point (if you don't, you're an utopist, or you just like to argue with me);

Vic

05-21-2002, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
How easy, what are the criteria and how many were accepted/rejected? From which countries? what are the criteria for determining that a coutry can generate political refugees? what is the distinction between a political refugee and and an emigree?
Basically according to the Geneva Convention of 1951:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_c_ref.htm
Btw. - this is (or was) the status under discussion for the Church of Nativity 13, the problem is Article 1, F.

The main distinction is that - in theory - the refugee status is determined according to the situation of the refugee himself, not the interests of the host country. An immigrant is someone the host country decides to take in, usually because of its internal needs, like computer specialists during the internet boom.

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Morpheus
Criteria. Well, a good question. Maybe the regimes where they come from? Someone from Afghanistan would get asylum without too much problems

Why? because their house got blown up?

Mediocrates

05-21-2002, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Vic

Basically according to the Geneva Convention of 1951:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_c_ref.htm
Btw. - this is (or was) the status under discussion for the Church of Nativity 13, the problem is Article 1, F.

The main distinction is that - in theory - the refugee status is determined according to the situation of the refugee himself, not the interests of the host country. An immigrant is someone the host country decides to take in, usually because of its internal needs, like computer specialists during the internet boom.

interesting legal question.

I'm not an immigrant because by programming skills aren't needed or welcome where I come from. I'm a refugee because my government doesn't like computer programmers. slippery.

For decades Russian Jewish refuseniks were refused entry into EU countries and the US based on strict quotas. They were stripped of their jobs and homes, sometimes for years. And when they were permitted to leave they were denied entry because they were 'unemployed' or 'voluntarily leaving their own country for financial gain'. How cynical is that?

L@mplighterM

05-24-2002, 08:28 PM

Police Warn of Possible Attack on Ottawa Jewish Community

The Story:

TORONTO (AP) - A synagogue or other gathering place for Ottawa's Jewish community could be attacked in June, police and city officials warned Friday.

A security advisory issued by Ottawa police said unconfirmed information about a possible attack "raised a serious enough concern" to warn the public.

City police and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were unable to either confirm or disprove the threat. No details were made public except that the threat involved a possible synagogue attack in June.

Police Chief Vince Bevan and Mayor Bob Chiarelli wrote a letter to the city's Jewish community saying police would be particularly vigilant and had formulated a response plan to any possible attack.

"We recognize that this information could be troubling and unsettling to you, your family and friends," the letter said. "We would like to assure you that the Ottawa police and the entire city of Ottawa take this matter very seriously."

In recent months, several Jewish synagogues in Canada have been attacked.

http://terrornews.net/home/article.asp?idx=510

Vic

05-24-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
For decades Russian Jewish refuseniks were refused entry into EU countries and the US based on strict quotas. They were stripped of their jobs and homes, sometimes for years. And when they were permitted to leave they were denied entry because they were 'unemployed' or 'voluntarily leaving their own country for financial gain'. How cynical is that?
It's sickening. But I've heard that it had to do something with Israel. All of the refuseniks were expected to go there and to no other place, so the Western countries "obliged".

L@mplighterM

05-27-2002, 11:09 AM

May. 27, 2002
Russian woman wounded in explosion while removing sign reading 'Death to Jews'
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

A woman was hospitalized Monday with severe burns from an explosion that went off while she was trying to tear down a roadside sign outside Moscow reading "Death to Jews," police said.

The woman was in critical but stable condition at Moscow's City Hospital No. 1 after the incident on the Kiev highway about 18 miles southwest of the capital, said traffic police investigators at the site.

The woman had been driving along the highway when she spotted a sign hand-painted with black letters reading "Death to Jews" posted by the roadside. She stopped her car and tried to pull the sign out of the earth, and was hit by the explosion, according to a duty officer with the Moscow regional police.

A traffic police investigator confirmed that the blast was caused by an explosive device. No other details were immediately available.

The sign was hurled into a ditch at the edge of the adjacent woodland, located along a busy highway near Moscow's Vnukovo airport.

The incident came amid heightened fears of racist violence in Moscow in recent weeks. While ultranationalist violence in Russia remains rare, Russian skinheads threatened a "war against foreigners" earlier this year and several attacks against dark-skinned people have been reported recently.

President Vladimir Putin has won praise from some Jewish groups for supporting efforts to revive Jewish culture after the discrimination and state-enforced atheism of the Soviet era.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813253294

elke

05-27-2002, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
May. 27, 2002
Russian woman wounded in explosion while removing sign reading 'Death to Jews'...

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813253294

Somehow, I am not surprised... :rolleyes:

Vic

05-27-2002, 05:28 PM

Tuesday, May. 28, 2002. Page 1

Racist Road Sign Blows Up Near City

By Robin Munro
Staff Writer
A day after visiting U.S. President George W. Bush stopped at a synagogue and praised religious freedom in Russia, a booby-trapped road sign with an anti-Semitic slogan exploded near Moscow and injured a woman Monday.

The woman, Tatyana Sapunova, 28, lost an eye after she tried to pull the sign out of the ground 32 kilometers southwest of Moscow, local media reported. She was in critical but stable condition at City Hospital No. 1 on Monday night.

Prosecutor General Vladimir Ustinov said he would take the case under his personal control.

"All incidents of extremism or racial intolerance will be handled with the maximum strictness allowed by law," he said, Interfax reported.

Sapunova and her daughter were driving on Kievskoye Shosse at noon Monday when she saw the sign near a turnoff to Vnukovo Airport, Interfax reported. She stopped her Gazel minibus and got out. The explosion took place as she tugged on the sign.

The blast had the force of 100 grams to 200 grams of TNT, Interfax said.

Television footage showed the sign with "Smert Zhidam," or "Death to Yids" written in large black paint lying in the trees along the road, where it had been hurled by the blast.

Berl Lazar, one of Russia's two chief rabbis, called for more effective action against extremism, Interfax reported.

[...]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2002/05/28/002.html

cerulean

05-31-2002, 05:55 PM

The woman who pulled out the sign may or may not recover sight in her left eye.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/01/international/europe/01RUSS.html

cerulean

05-31-2002, 06:09 PM

But it is about France. A French writer is being brought to court by four French Muslim religious organizations because he said that "Islam was the most stupid of all religions."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,723891,00.html

It appears, though, that this is a common conviction - Brigitte Bardot (the actress) has been convicted three times on a similar charge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/showbiz/newsid_1324000/1324707.stm

arielle

06-07-2002, 10:54 AM

I am not American and I am the first to criticize American policies I do not like but the amount of anti-American propoganda that goes on in Europe is disturbing and dangerous. Each summer I go to France and when I was younger I would go to summer camps with French kids and T.V programmes would down-right lie about America.
After having lived and studied in Europe the impression I got was that Europeans hate it that a non-socialist country is doing so well. Not only doing well but helping Europeans out when they are in trouble. (World War 1 and 2 are examples)
Europeans ambassadors in Canada like to say that Jews claim there is a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe only because they do not like that Europe is unbiased when it comes to Israel.
Tell me, when the French ambassador to England calls Israel a "****ty little country" and does not gat fired or even reprimanded, is this unbiased?

elke

06-07-2002, 11:16 AM

Robert Heinlein said in one of his books that gratitude is a form of resentment. It sounds crazy, but looking at the European behavior, it certainly seems like a plausible explanation for the anti-Americanism.

India - a subcontinent with 1B people, and Pakistan are said to be on the brink of a nuclear war! Yet the headlines are dominated by 6 million Israelis' reactions to 3.5 million Palestinian suicide bombers. Something weird is going on, for sure!

Mediocrates

06-07-2002, 11:48 AM

I think arrogance is a form of regret.

elke

06-07-2002, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think arrogance is a form of regret.

Good point, actually. I think I agree with you on that.

takeo

06-07-2002, 12:45 PM

Europe has to be independant from the superpower, we will not serve us' interests, we have our own interests and policy. if you are looking for satellite-states forget France and go terrorising some latinamerican countries.
What about the lies told about France, for example on this forum, by people who have never even visited France...
why should we feel gratitude because the us liberated parts of Europe? the Soviet-union helped too at a greater cost, do we have to be eternally gratefull to the soviet-union? Do the us has to be eternally gratefull because France helped them in their independance war?

L@mplighterM

06-07-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think arrogance is a form of regret.

I think regret is a form of arrogance.

L@mplighterM

06-13-2002, 09:19 PM

Sappers probe second ‘Death to Jews’ sign near Moscow
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

Explosives experts were investigating an anti-Semitic sign found yesterday on a Moscow highway with the same epithet as a sign that caused an explosion last month when a passerby attempted to remove it.

Authorities have cordoned off the area around the sign found on the highway that rings the capital, the Interfax news agency reported. Police were tipped off by a driver who saw the red sign with black letters reading "Death to Jews," and authorities from the domestic security agency were also at the scene.

Last month, a woman was seriously injured while trying to remove a similar sign on a road outside Moscow. Copycat signs also appeared in the city of Voronezh last week.

The explosion came amid heightened fears of racist violence in Moscow, and Russian skinheads have threatened a "war against foreigners." The day after the explosion, skinheads in Moscow attacked a 16-year-old American Jewish boy whose father serves as the rabbi in Voronezh.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716465664

cerulean

06-17-2002, 04:19 AM

This article get views from across the spectrum, from Jews who feel quite threatened to those who feel little threat.

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Paris3_When_It_Sizzles_With_Hate.asp

cerulean

06-17-2002, 08:21 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61536-2002Jun16.html

This editorial focuses on Jurgen Mollemann, deputy leader of Germany's Free Democratic Party. I believe Vic at one time posted that this party is essentially a joke, but I don't want to misquote.

Vic

06-17-2002, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61536-2002Jun16.html

This editorial focuses on Jurgen Mollemann, deputy leader of Germany's Free Democratic Party. I believe Vic at one time posted that this party is essentially a joke, but I don't want to misquote. Not the party itself, "it's a long and sad tale" (the party use to be very good, long ago...), but Mr. Moellemann himself. He did hold a governmental office years ago and lost the job for promoting an invention of a close relative, a chip for supermarket carts, on ministerial letterheads, characterizing it as "witty product". (Germany is not the US, you know. You can't do it the Bush family way, at least not as openly ;)) This "witty product" ("pfiffiges Produkt") became his second name for years, a psychologist would probably say that he is currently over-compensating the resulting inferiority complex the way all morons do. His last name sounds rather funny in German too, people are making puns about it the whole time. But I've heard someone say recently that they laughed a lot about Hitler too, until it was too late. Not a pleasant thought.

One thing is certain: the whole affair is a case study on how not to deal with anti-semitism. I suppose that any European, and especially German politician would have learned by now that the cheapest way to catapult oneself from a non-entity to a worldwide celebrity is to make anti-semitic statements :(

takeo

06-17-2002, 04:06 PM

He didn't made an anti-semitic statement.
what did he exactly say that was anti-semitic to you???
""I, too, would resist, indeed violently,"
if resistance to occupation is anti-semitic, than i'm anti-semitic as well as well as the people fighting the nazi's.

"Then he suggested that his party enlist as a member a politician who accused the Israeli army of "Nazi methods" and complained of "the influence of the Zionist lobby" in the media."

well, so anyone accusing hamas of committing nazi-acts and complains about the "Arab influence" in Europe is an anti-arab racist? And anyone saying that Hamas or terrorists do contribute to the hatred against Palestinians as well?

"When those not-so-subtle messages prompted criticism from Michel Friedman, a talk show host who serves on Germany's Central Council of Jews, Mr. Mollemann resorted to a classic tactic of the 1930s: blaming the Jews for inspiring hatred. "Hardly anyone makes the anti-Semites, who unfortunately do exist in Germany, more popular than Mr. [Ariel] Sharon," Mr. Mollemann pronounced -- "and in Germany, Friedman, with his intolerant and spiteful manner."

The man is absolutely right, and it's exactly what our party says as well (and i think the PDS in germany as well) and what most people in Europe and in the world think!!!! most of you think that the owrst insults of lomplighters and others against Arabs and Muslims aren't racism, but even the slightest criticism on israel is anti-semitism! Get real!!!

about the first article: that's what we call "subjective sence of insecurity". Some people get scared when they hear people talking Arab or see a couple of algerians in the street...
But only very few people in France actually got attacked because they are Jewish, and all those cases reach the international press.

""I always identified first as a French citizen and as a Jew," she says. Her Jewish identity remained private, as lobbying and "communautarisme" [single-identity issues] are frowned upon. "

that's true for most French jews, and not because they are forced but because they really feel that way.

"The Jews of France became unified briefly in fighting Le Pen. With that threat over, the ongoing anti-Semitic events have exposed differences along fault lines of religious observance, social class, politics, age and origins. "

that's right too

and you have to be totally ignorant not to see that the current problems are totally linked to the problems in the Middle East.
"Residents lived in relative peace until the new intifada began some 20 months ago. "

as elke said in another treath:
"I still think that suspicion of a group, based on their beliefs and/or actions, is a legitimate response and does not constitute racism. " (It was in defense of anti-Arab or anti-Muslim statements.)
I don't agree with such a view, but some other people do, that's why there is antisemitism in France among a small number of citizens of Arab origin.

Not all Jews agree. Some Jewish intellectuals, leftist politicians and journalists ally themselves with the plight of Arabs. The most assimilated and least religious Jews feel as comfortable as ever in France.

"I don't see that things have deteriorated in France so that you can see anti-Semitism or feel it," says cancer researcher Marc Lipinski, 48, a member of the Green Party and of the city council in Vanves, a town of 25,000 outside of Paris.

Eric de Rothschild, 61, president of the Rothschild Foundation, worries about anti-Semitic incidents in the suburbs but notes that "statistically, non-Jews are targeted as often as Jews."

"The Jewish community in France," says de Rothschild, "has reacted as forcefully as it should, without resorting to hysteria and threats."

absolutely

some people like to see a Jewish zionist block to influence the French government and get benefits as in the US, and create a hysteria of "anti-semitism"(always a usefull tool to reverse any criticism, but very dangerous because it can only benefit real anti-semitists such as Le Pen) . Fortunately they are only a small minority of the jewish community in France, and I'm very lucky i don't live in the US.

"Few Jews in power admit to any grave danger. They also reject any outside intervention. In fact, they resent Israel's call to French Jews to make aliyah. They attack the American Jewish Congress for suggesting a boycott of the Cannes Film Festival and French products. Even Raphael rages at outsiders. "

Yes, they don't like to create histeria, they don't like foreigners telling the french Jews how anti-semitic their country is, and they are French in the first place, Jewish is only their background (the same applies for all etnic origins in France)

"French Holocaust survivors are as furious as the rest. "There's no need to panic, just to pay attention," says Alexandre Danemans, 72, a retired businessman and Holocaust survivor. "

absolutely right

"His optimism stems from his wartime experiences. Barely 12, Danemans watched as his parents were arrested in Tours to be shipped off to Auschwitz. He found a safe haven with a Catholic family in a neighboring town. They sheltered him, passing him off as a nephew for the entire war.
Gilbert May, 77, born in Strasbourg into one of Alsace's oldest Jewish families, owes his life to a protective archbishop. Like Danemans, he has seen worse periods and believes this one will blow over.
May, vice president of the Jewish organization LICRA (League against Racism), joined the French Resistance in 1939, eventually was arrested by the Gestapo and landed in Struthof, France's only concentration camp. He shared a cell with the archbishop and a Bourbon prince. When all three were shipped to Dachau, the archbishop had May participate in Mass to protect him"

The Jewish students' organization, UEJF, recently joined forces with SOS Racisme -- a respected anti-racism group headed by an Algerian -- to co-write a white paper on anti-Semitic acts over the past two years.

"Our worst fear is indifference," says Eric Wahed, 24, president of the UEJF's Marseille chapter, who organizes rallies and counters pro-Palestinian propaganda on campus. He was stunned just last month as he watched the synagogue in Caillol burn to the ground.

"We have to mobilize and fight back," Wahed says. "Granted, this is not 1939, but we have come to another crossroads for Jews in France."

"We got along well as long as we had a common enemy in Le Pen," says Schor. "Now the moderates are afraid of incurring the wrath of radical 'integristes.' "

that may be true.

"Individual friendships with Arabs are also chilling. An Arab friend had commissioned a painting from Kessel of a village near Bethlehem, with two women in long robes walking through the streets. The friend became more belligerent in their usual debates about the Middle East. The next day he told Kessel that he could not be his friend or pay him for the painting. Kessel brought the painting back to his studio and, in a fit of pique, painted a mezuzah on the door of each Arab home. "

Yes, the situation in the middle East is stirring the Arab and jewish french relations. But it didn't affect my life and friendship the slightest bit, it only makes political discussions with them more interesting.

The french television, wich some channels are owned by jewish people, tries to be evenhanded, as CNN. We will never only broadcast israeli propaganda as the zionist lobby would like to see.

"The state of siege is new and uncomfortable. Abehsera, born in Morocco, socialized freely with Muslims there. Once he moved to France 12 years ago, he discovered that the relationship between the two communities was acrid, confrontational and tense.
"At universities, there is a move to isolate Jews," says Abehsera, who teaches dentistry. "I'm not packed and ready to leave France just yet," he says. "But I've cashed out of several investments and my passport is up to date."

that's BS, and THIS I am the most suited person to know for sure on this forum.

Vic

06-17-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by takeo
Against my better judgement...
if resistance to occupation is anti-semitic, than i'm anti-semitic as well as well as the people fighting the nazi's.You are. Some of them were anti-semites too, others were not. It has never been the defining aspect.

The man is absolutely right, and it's exactly what our party says as well (and i think the PDS in germany as well) and what most people in Europe and in the world think!!!!What party do you belong to? Just curious :)

about the first article: that's what we call "subjective sence of insecurity". Some people get scared when they hear people talking Arab or see a couple of algerians in the street...
But only very few people in France actually got attacked because they are Jewish, and all those cases reach the international press. I agree on that. The trouble is less that such attacks are widely reported than that the reporting itself is done out of proper context and that the "usual" racist attacks attract much less attention.

Which makes me wonder about you. France is by all accounts a strongly racist country, I needn't tell you that, I daresay. The very Arabs you are so deeply concerned when they are mistreated in Israel are grossly discriminated against in France too, the educational system is sometimes described as implementing a de facto apartheid.

(For these of you not acquainted with the issues, a recent summary of the situation:Chirac's next challenge is to tackle the causes of the Le Pen vote, which are at root a failure by French society to achieve the kind of assimilation that is now seen as normal in the U.S. and Britain.

Despite some 7 million immigrants -- mostly now French born or full citizens, there is not a single member of the 577-seat National Assembly of Arab stock. And despite a smattering of candidates in hopeless seats for minor parties, none looks likely to be elected this time.

Nor is the community represented in the Senate, nor among France's 36,000 elected mayors. This has to change, and France's immigrants given a real stake in the country because otherwise something ugly is building.source: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=07062002-051651-8082r )

Well, like most "Israel critics" you are probably more comfortable with human rights violations that happen at a safe distance from your place of residence than with the ones bang in front of you, which you, being a citizen of your country, a full member of your society can actually do a lot about. But we are quite satisfied when our fellow citizens we definetely owe support to seriously believe that their main problem is far away from our real sphere of influence, aren't we?

takeo

06-17-2002, 05:16 PM

"You are. Some of them were anti-semites too, others were not. It has never been the defining aspect. "

Sure, ANYONE daring to critizise israel is an anti-semit or a self-hating Jew :rolleyes: . but of course we should have full comprehension for people calling Arabs or Muslims animal or subhumans or whatever and it certainly can't be racism... (his name begins with a L)
you clearly have a double standard, calling Arab countries and people whatever insult you can imagine, because of their policy, is not racism, but even making much less radical and more polite statements concerning ithe Israeli policy is considered anti-semitism. I think that discussion with people like you is not possible, if you work with obviously double standards.
That's the big mistake of the zionist movement, their defense (everyone who is not with us is anti-semitic) is so biased that they loose credibility.

"Which makes me wonder about you. France is by all accounts a strongly racist country, I needn't tell you that, I daresay. The very Arabs you are so deeply concerned when they are mistreated in Israel are grossly discriminated against in France too, the educational system is sometimes described as implementing a de facto apartheid. "

blabla, arabs in france are well integrated and according to the same L they are very influential (wich is an exxageration of course). In reality France is the country in Europe where Arabs and other immigrants have integrated the most. in no other country in Europe and certainly not in the us you have so much mixed marriages and cultural mixes as in France, for example the algerian/french singer Cheb Khaled is very popular among ALL French youth. In no other European country so much Arabs are professor in the university, manager of companies, or other responsible positions.
about Germany: i once read a book of a German journalist who said he was Turkish (Turkish people look quite European) and observed all the discrimination he had to endure. The most racist part of france is Alsace, a region with an important german-speaking population...
And i've heard from Mexicans in the US and Palestinians in israel how open-minded and tolerant those countries are...

"Chirac's next challenge is to tackle the causes of the Le Pen vote, which are at root a failure by French society to achieve the kind of assimilation that is now seen as normal in the U.S. and Britain. "

the US and GB are much more segregated than France.

"Despite some 7 million immigrants -- mostly now French born or full citizens, there is not a single member of the 577-seat National Assembly of Arab stock. And despite a smattering of candidates in hopeless seats for minor parties, none looks likely to be elected this time. "

BS, there is even an Arab minister (a woman) in the new rightist government. In my party (the PCF) there are around 20% of Arab members in Paris.

How many Arab or Muslims are represented in the US congress?

"Well, like most "Israel critics" you are probably more comfortable with human rights violations that happen at a safe distance from your place of residence than with the ones bang in front of you, which you, being a citizen of your country, a full member of your society can actually do a lot about. But we are quite satisfied when our fellow citizens we definetely owe support to seriously believe that their main problem is far away from our real sphere of influence, aren't we?"

actually there is no comparison, but on the contrary the problems of the middle east get exported to France with both a considerable Arab and jewish minority so we are involved too.
if the Arabs in france would be treated like the Palestinians i'm sure we would have daily suicide-bombings as well.

But, this theory of yours above, isn't this applyable to all people on this forum who don't live in israel? why care for israel and take care of your own problems in Germany, the US... it's actually a stupid argument.

__________________
"In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep oneself." - Albert Einstein

Blue Moon

06-18-2002, 12:20 AM

Just so I get this straight (cause I've been a chewin' on this for awhile . . . ): Mr. Takeo, am I correct in summarizing your position as this:

1) You are Jewish, yet you live in a predominately Arab section of France - - that country known for treating its Jewish population with the utmost kindness and openness, and the sight many of the recent anti-semetic attacks.
2) You don't really know how you would be treated if you walked around your neighborhood with a yarmulke and tallit on, while carrying a copy of the old testimant, and you don't do so only because you don't go to temple,
3) And, that you visited some of the Middle Eastern countries and liked the people and they liked you - - again, without your yarmulke or tallit or old testimant - - but they liked you because you badmouthed Israel ?

Is this summary mostly true ?? By the way, do you say the same things in your current neighborhood that you did in the Middle East ??? If so, the American African-Americans have a term for such a person: Uncle Tom.

I can only hope someday, that one of the genes on your Jewish DNA chromosomes bursts, and you are confronted in your own mind with the 4,000 plus year history of your ancestors, and the
pain and anguish they've suffered just trying to find a place to live without being ridiculed, oppressed, slaughtered and tortured.

Now, I'm waiting with baited breath - - please, please tell us all how the West Bank and Gaza Arabs, through no fault of thier own or that of their loving Arab brothers in nearby Middle East countries - - have suffered just as much as the Jewish People.

Please say it again for me. I contantly need to be reminded of that there are a few Jews here and there who aren't especially bright (and, I'm not discriminating, because in the U.S., Hollywood has some too . . .).
:p

Vic

06-18-2002, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by takeo
"You are. Some of them were anti-semites too, others were not. It has never been the defining aspect. "

Sure, ANYONE daring to critizise israel is an anti-semit or a self-hating Jew :rolleyes: . but of course we should have full comprehension for people calling Arabs or Muslims animal or subhumans or whatever and it certainly can't be racism... (his name begins with a L)
you clearly have a double standard, calling Arab countries and people whatever insult you can imagine, because of their policy, is not racism, but even making much less radical and more polite statements concerning ithe Israeli policy is considered anti-semitism. I think that discussion with people like you is not possible, if you work with obviously double standards.
That's the big mistake of the zionist movement, their defense (everyone who is not with us is anti-semitic) is so biased that they loose credibility. You seem to blend several posters here into one person. I did as a matter of fact question the far too liberal usage of the term "Arab". I know this "criticizing-Israel-is-not-anisemitic" song all too well, the general assumption is that by criticizing Israel one acquires total immunity against anti-semitism accusations.

"Which makes me wonder about you. France is by all accounts a strongly racist country, I needn't tell you that, I daresay. The very Arabs you are so deeply concerned when they are mistreated in Israel are grossly discriminated against in France too, the educational system is sometimes described as implementing a de facto apartheid. "

blabla, arabs in france are well integrated and according to the same L they are very influential (wich is an exxageration of course). In reality France is the country in Europe where Arabs and other immigrants have integrated the most. in no other country in Europe and certainly not in the us you have so much mixed marriages and cultural mixes as in France, for example the algerian/french singer Cheb Khaled is very popular among ALL French youth. In no other European country so much Arabs are professor in the university, manager of companies, or other responsible positions.
about Germany: i once read a book of a German journalist who said he was Turkish (Turkish people look quite European) and observed all the discrimination he had to endure. The most racist part of france is Alsace, a region with an important german-speaking population...
And i've heard from Mexicans in the US and Palestinians in israel how open-minded and tolerant those countries are...
Again, if you want to argue against someone else, do so. Funny you should try to enlighten me of all people about racism in Germany, I am currently carrying my Sephardic face and my accent no one can identify here properly through the streets of this very country. No, Turks don't look "European", maybe "South European" but actually quite "foreign" here, and most Germans who don't know me think I'm "a kind of Turk". Yes, there is a lot of racism in Germany, which on its own hardly proves that there is none in France.

Have you ever bothered to ask the French human rights organisations? May I inform you that there exists an anti-racism movent in your country and that its members and leaders paint an entirely different picture. Need some links?

Do you have comparative statistics for the representation of minorities among the academic personnel and in top positions in the private economy? It would be quite interesting.

"Chirac's next challenge is to tackle the causes of the Le Pen vote, which are at root a failure by French society to achieve the kind of assimilation that is now seen as normal in the U.S. and Britain. "

the US and GB are much more segregated than France.Data?

"Despite some 7 million immigrants -- mostly now French born or full citizens, there is not a single member of the 577-seat National Assembly of Arab stock. And despite a smattering of candidates in hopeless seats for minor parties, none looks likely to be elected this time. "

BS, there is even an Arab minister (a woman) in the new rightist government. In my party (the PCF) there are around 20% of Arab members in Paris.

How many Arab or Muslims are represented in the US congress?It's a kind of fashion among conservative parties right now to put minority representatives in high positions. A sort of development of "some of my best friends are Jews": look, how can you claim that some of our policies are discriminatory, we have an Arab (Turk, African or whatever) in our government (on our board of directors, in our party leadership etc.)

So you are a Communist? Isn't racism an issue for your party anymore? Some of your German brethren, the PDS you have cited (not much of a political force on the whole btw.), are at least quite explicit on it.

"Well, like most "Israel critics" you are probably more comfortable with human rights violations that happen at a safe distance from your place of residence than with the ones bang in front of you, which you, being a citizen of your country, a full member of your society can actually do a lot about. But we are quite satisfied when our fellow citizens we definetely owe support to seriously believe that their main problem is far away from our real sphere of influence, aren't we?"

actually there is no comparison, but on the contrary the problems of the middle east get exported to France with both a considerable Arab and jewish minority so we are involved too.
if the Arabs in france would be treated like the Palestinians i'm sure we would have daily suicide-bombings as well.
Wasn't there already a series of bombing attacks in France?

But seriously, the question still remains. I know you don't like it :D . Nobody does.
But, this theory of yours above, isn't this applyable to all people on this forum who don't live in israel? why care for israel and take care of your own problems in Germany, the US... it's actually a stupid argument.Your manners aside, as a matter of fact I do. One hardly excludes the other, on the contrary, it's quite helpful to get the big picture. Give it a try too. "SOS racisme", for one - http://www.sos-racisme-14.org/ , http://www.sos-racisme.org - appreciates volunteers, I've been told ;)

cerulean

06-18-2002, 01:51 AM

From the New Republic:

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020624&s=judis062402

I think the basic point of the article is that Germany is in crisis due to economics, inflexible labor laws, and an unintegrated class of immigrants. The fact that the immigrants are unassimilated is also due in large part ot German laws.

I have a Taiwanese friend who spent a number of years in Germany and pines for it regularly. If he experienced racism, he has never mentioned it (or perhaps he doesn't want to mention it to me). I wonder if his experience is different from someone with a "southern European/Turkish" appearance, since there's no ambiguity as to his origins in his case.

=======
As for the difficulties of Arab immigrants integrating into French society, I can see there would be difficulties on both sides. The cultures are so far apart and in terms of sheer numbers, the Arab immigrants would have reached a point where integration is not really necessary to be perfectly functional in day to day life. But I know relatively little about this, so will leave it to the experts. I do recall the controversy some years ago when the French education minister was attempting to prohibit high school girls from wearing a veil to class. What was the end result of that effort? It's interesting that Turkey will not allow women to wear the veil in class or in government positions, precisely because they fear Islamic fundamentalism will make inroads if this is allowed. Realistically, I don't see how Arab women can fully integrate into French society if they wear veils to school and work, and I would suspect that most Arab women who have integrated do not wear veils.

christian

06-18-2002, 08:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerulean
[B]From the New Republic:

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020624&s=judis062402

I think the basic point of the article is that Germany is in crisis due to economics, inflexible labor laws, and an unintegrated class of immigrants. The fact that the immigrants are unassimilated is also due in large part ot German laws.

I have a Taiwanese friend who spent a number of years in Germany and pines for it regularly. If he experienced racism, he has never mentioned it (or perhaps he doesn't want to mention it to me). I wonder if his experience is different from someone with a "southern European/Turkish" appearance, since there's no ambiguity as to his origins in his case.

Actually, the foreigner who works abroad like southeast asia. Most of them, includes germans, marries a oriental woman. The racism is strong in Germany. However, when the people live abroad. People changes their perspective.

My boss is a german. Who divorce his wife, to marry a oriental woman. Many foreigner does the same.

Other foreigner like jewish people, marries asian woman. There are many mixed marriage with foreigner, working abroad.

Perhaps, the foreigner likes the family value, which many chinese woman stands for. Many man in HK are taken for granted. :D

takeo

06-19-2002, 06:06 PM

"1) You are Jewish, yet you live in a predominately Arab section of France - - that country known for treating its Jewish population with the utmost kindness and openness, and the sight many of the recent anti-semetic attacks.
2) You don't really know how you would be treated if you walked around your neighborhood with a yarmulke and tallit on, while carrying a copy of the old testimant, and you don't do so only because you don't go to temple,
3) And, that you visited some of the Middle Eastern countries and liked the people and they liked you - - again, without your yarmulke or tallit or old testimant - - but they liked you because you badmouthed Israel ? "

yes, they liked me (not all of them of course) because I was not in favor of the israeli policy, and because i visited their country, that's right, but i tried to talk with them in an open way, and always said that israel has the right to exist, which some agreed to and other didn't.

"Is this summary mostly true ?? By the way, do you say the same things in your current neighborhood that you did in the Middle East ??? If so, the American African-Americans have a term for such a person: Uncle Tom. "

what's uncle Tom, except the book?
in my neighbourhood I behave as a French, while the costums in some arab countries are different... you have to be a little more carefull, it are for the most part of them not open democratic countries, but i always said what i tought, but in a more diplomatic way.

"I can only hope someday, that one of the genes on your Jewish DNA chromosomes bursts, and you are confronted in your own mind with the 4,000 plus year history of your ancestors, and the
pain and anguish they've suffered just trying to find a place to live without being ridiculed, oppressed, slaughtered and tortured. "

I feel Jewish in some way, and I don't feel ridiculised, oppressed, slaughtered or tortured in France. It happened in the past, but the Jewish people is not the only one on earth that suffered such hardships, we should never forget them, but we should look to the present and the future.

"Now, I'm waiting with baited breath - - please, please tell us all how the West Bank and Gaza Arabs, through no fault of thier own or that of their loving Arab brothers in nearby Middle East countries - - have suffered just as much as the Jewish People."

I didn't say they suffered as much as the jewish people during 1000's years of history, but they suffered more than the citizens of israel.

"Please say it again for me. I contantly need to be reminded of that there are a few Jews here and there who aren't especially bright (and, I'm not discriminating, because in the U.S., Hollywood has some too . . .). "

i think the ones resisting to the zionist lobby who claim to represent the worldwide jewish people, are the brightest ones... (i am not particularly bright myself, but i have some fine examples, as Chomsky, Finkelstein, and many more Jewish people who resisted to this system. luckily one of the main qualities of Jews is intelligence and independance, that's why you will find more Jewish opposition against zionism than Arab opposition against arab nationalism.

"You seem to blend several posters here into one person. I did as a matter of fact question the far too liberal usage of the term "Arab". I know this "criticizing-Israel-is-not-anisemitic" song all too well, the general assumption is that by criticizing Israel one acquires total immunity against anti-semitism accusations. "

no, some criticisers of israel are real anti-semites, who are against all Jews because they are jews, others, among wich Jews as well, are against the policy of oppression by israel.
sorry that i "blended" you, but sometimes your opinion is very similar to that of other posters on this forum; tell me, how did you learn to speak such splendid english, as a Jewish Russian living in Germany? for French people it's really a torture to speak English (and vice-versa)

"Again, if you want to argue against someone else, do so. Funny you should try to enlighten me of all people about racism in Germany, I am currently carrying my Sephardic face and my accent no one can identify here properly through the streets of this very country. No, Turks don't look "European", maybe "South European" but actually quite "foreign" here, and most Germans who don't know me think I'm "a kind of Turk". Yes, there is a lot of racism in Germany, which on its own hardly proves that there is none in France. "

that's right of course. there are not so many Turks here as in germany, but in general they look quite similar to Greek or Italian people, or even southern france, and some have a typical Russian face, as me too.(depends what region they come from) Here you can not always identify a Turk, Southern European(35% of French have spanish, Italian or Polish origin) or Eastern European, while you can in most cases identify someone with Arab blood ... which is a serious handicap for them. (it reduces their chances for finding work, that's a hard reality indeed, but still it is only in some cases, not general)
The Turkish community is strange, on the one hand they are hardly religious if at all, in general quite leftist, but they remain a very strong link with their land, their culture and their language, more than Arabs(even if their culture is much more European). They are extremely nationalistic, both the right-wing and left-wing Turks(who can't stand eachother), as all Balcans people.
(by the way they played terrific in the worldcup, the Turks, not France, the germans as usual are good but they play really dull)

"Have you ever bothered to ask the French human rights organisations? May I inform you that there exists an anti-racism movent in your country and that its members and leaders paint an entirely different picture. Need some links? "

of course, that's right. I do not participate in one of them, but they are doing a good job. I never said that there is no racism or race-related problems in France, but it is certainly not worse than in any other European country with the same amounts of different people. The fact the Le Pen and FN exist is an indication that all is not well, and that some things need to change. (mostly in the "banlieus")

"Do you have comparative statistics for the representation of minorities among the academic personnel and in top positions in the private economy? It would be quite interesting. "

i searched on the web, but didn't find any statistics for Paris.
but i have seen a publication by the interior ministry some years ago that said that in paris around 37% of the group of the highest wages were of non-European origin.
Also i know from my own experiences that people in responsible functions of state-owned or private companies, secretaries, lawyers, owners of large shops, university etc. are often of arab origin. (but of course compared to the jewish french they are seriously underrepresented)

http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/Aubry95a/index.html

(a site created by the maire of Lille and Michel Fingerhut to fight extreme right and explain immigration-related issues.)

takeo

06-19-2002, 06:08 PM

"Data? "

I don't know where to search on the net, yet it is a general impression, as mixed marriages seem to be less common in the states, where blacks, Arabs, Puertoricans, etc. will prefere to marry with their own kind and stay in the same neighbourhood, and you see less mixed couples on the streets than in france (however mixes between people of different european origin seems to be normal)
(however mostly in the big French cities, much less in the countryside)

"It's a kind of fashion among conservative parties right now to put minority representatives in high positions. A sort of development of "some of my best friends are Jews": look, how can you claim that some of our policies are discriminatory, we have an Arab (Turk, African or whatever) in our government (on our board of directors, in our party leadership etc.) "

maybe so, but at least it's a start, more will certainly follow, as they 're an important part of our society.

"So you are a Communist? Isn't racism an issue for your party anymore? Some of your German brethren, the PDS you have cited (not much of a political force on the whole btw.), are at least quite explicit on it. "

yes, of course it's an issue, that's why the PCF was one of the organisers of the big manifestations against Le Pen, which resulted in a defeat in the last parliamentory elections. we also work in neighboorhoods to organise better understanding and comprehension, and we demand more government-aid for poorer neighboorhoods. Racism is less a problem in cities governed by communists.
I tought the PDS was quite important in Germany, and still very important in Eastern Germany... I once met with Hans Modrow, and I saw Gisy some time ago in Paris on a conference, I think it's a party with capacities.

but my impression is that in germany people are much more serious about racism, i mean that many Germans really have a deeprooted fear/anxiety against foreigners, even if they won't say so, a feeling that doesn't exist in France. French have a "grande geule" ("big mouth") but they will far more easily invite people of a different background in their houses, as a friend, talk with them, or marry them. A French will make nasty comments about Arabs and boost that he voted for le Pen and the next moment invite one of them for coffee. I might be wrong, it is not scientific research, but that was my impression.

"I have a Taiwanese friend who spent a number of years in Germany and pines for it regularly. If he experienced racism, he has never mentioned it (or perhaps he doesn't want to mention it to me). I wonder if his experience is different from someone with a "southern European/Turkish" appearance, since there's no ambiguity as to his origins in his case. "

I never heard of racism against Chinese

=======
"As for the difficulties of Arab immigrants integrating into French society, I can see there would be difficulties on both sides. The cultures are so far apart and in terms of sheer numbers, the Arab immigrants would have reached a point where integration is not really necessary to be perfectly functional in day to day life. But I know relatively little about this, so will leave it to the experts."

I think integration is possible, and it's a fact in most French cities, many of the thirth generation blend in completely, don't go to Mosques and don't speak Arabic, i'm sure the 4th generation will cease to exist as a separate group as the Italians, Jewish, Spanish, Polish and all the others did who came here in the 19th or 20th century. Even the Africans and Asians are very well integrating, it's even painfull that they loose all their traditions.

" I do recall the controversy some years ago when the French education minister was attempting to prohibit high school girls from wearing a veil to class. What was the end result of that effort? It's interesting that Turkey will not allow women to wear the veil in class or in government positions, precisely because they fear Islamic fundamentalism will make inroads if this is allowed. Realistically, I don't see how Arab women can fully integrate into French society if they wear veils to school and work, and I would suspect that most Arab women who have integrated do not wear veils."

that's right, absolutely. I agree with this decision to prohibid veils, because religion is something that should be separated from education, and indeed it limits integration. but on the other hand maybe other methods would be better suited than pure prohibition, such as social pressure, media-campaigns, teachers informing the pupils over their rights, etc.

"Perhaps, the foreigner likes the family value, which many chinese woman stands for. Many man in HK are taken for granted. "

Oriental women :cool: the family values, OK, but more than than that i can assure you...

ps: sorry about the quality of my posts, i had some rough days...

cerulean

06-19-2002, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by takeo
sorry that i "blended" you, but sometimes your opinion is very similar to that of other posters on this forum

I know you posted this to Vic, but you also said something very similar to me a few weeks ago! Truly, all the pro-Israel posters are quite different. Maybe make a chart with our distinguishing characteristics :-).

Originally posted by takeo
I don't know where to search on the net, yet it is a general impression, as mixed marriages seem to be less common in the states, where blacks, Arabs, Puertoricans, etc. will prefere to marry with their own kind and stay in the same neighbourhood, and you see less mixed couples on the streets than in france (however mixes between people of different european origin seems to be normal)
(however mostly in the big French cities, much less in the countryside)

Mixed marriages (however you want to define this, but let's say "color") are very common on the west coast of the United States. Actually, I'd say mixed relationships, because marriage is less and less popular. I read a few years ago that Seattle has more mixed-race relationships than any city in the US. Have your travels included the West Coast?

As of 1997, one in seven children born in California is now classified as "mixed-race" (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/09/connerly/index_np.html). See also http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/070400ca-latin.html. But as you know, race and ethnicity are quite imprecise terms. No one is "pure" anything.

Originally posted by takeo
but my impression is that in germany people are much more serious about racism, i mean that many Germans really have a deeprooted fear/anxiety against foreigners, even if they won't say so, a feeling that doesn't exist in France. French have a "grande geule" ("big mouth") but they will far more easily invite people of a different background in their houses, as a friend, talk with them, or marry them. A French will make nasty comments about Arabs and boost that he voted for le Pen and the next moment invite one of them for coffee. I might be wrong, it is not scientific research, but that was my impression.

I've been told something very similar. Also that French are definitely more anti-Semitic than Germans. However, Germans, having a particular type of collective personality that drives them to take actions on their beliefs, ended up being the perpetrators of the Holocaust, although their hatred of Jews was not as great as the French. (This is not my analysis, but how it has been explained to me.)

Originally posted by takeo
that's right, absolutely. I agree with this decision to prohibid veils, because religion is something that should be separated from education, and indeed it limits integration. but on the other hand maybe other methods would be better suited than pure prohibition, such as social pressure, media-campaigns, teachers informing the pupils over their rights, etc.

All of these latter methods take a much longer time and are not as effective as outright enforcement. Despite the fact that I am in favor of women's rights and being against Islamic fundamentalism, I do worry about the possible psychic trauma that this prohibition might have on the girls. On the other hand, maybe this is the only effective response and the girls will benefit in many ways. I would like be interested to know how Arab women (or other women) in France are doing in terms of professional careers.

Originally posted by takeo
ps: sorry about the quality of my posts, i had some rough days...

Just so long as you have a sudden pro-Israel revelation in the midst of your suffering, I hope your rough days are over shortly :-)
(Even so, I hope they are.)

takeo

06-20-2002, 05:23 AM

"I know you posted this to Vic, but you also said something very similar to me a few weeks ago! Truly, all the pro-Israel posters are quite different. Maybe make a chart with our distinguishing characteristics :-). "

OK, that might be a good idea ;)
i know the different background of each poster, but the subtle differences in opinion are sometimes more difficult to detect (except some obvious cases of course...)

"Mixed marriages (however you want to define this, but let's say "color") are very common on the west coast of the United States. Actually, I'd say mixed relationships, because marriage is less and less popular. I read a few years ago that Seattle has more mixed-race relationships than any city in the US. Have your travels included the West Coast? "

I have never been there, a good idea for the future... all people i know who went there said it is the most fun and advancing part of the US, with a very nice and diverse climate (except Seattle i heard). I can imagine it is quite different from states as Oklahoma. Before i went there, i was not aware that regional differences in the US do exist as well.
I tought the NorthEastern part of the US was the most liberal;
What races live in the Westcoast? Blacks, latino's, asians???

"But as you know, race and ethnicity are quite imprecise terms. No one is "pure" anything. "

That's right, certainly not in France or the US.

"I've been told something very similar. Also that French are definitely more anti-Semitic than Germans. However, Germans, having a particular type of collective personality that drives them to take actions on their beliefs, ended up being the perpetrators of the Holocaust, although their hatred of Jews was not as great as the French. (This is not my analysis, but how it has been explained to me.) "

i don't think french are more anti-semitic than Germans, if so than anti-semitism in Germany should be virtually non-existant.
anti-semitism is for obvious reasons a taboo-subject in Germany, so it's difficult to know.
In the past both Germany and France had stronger anti-semitism, in both countries anti-semitism was the exclusive field of the right-wing, but i think anti-semitism was stronger in Germany, the anti-semite policy of the Vichy-government and the nazi-occupier was actively combatted by the majority of the french, many families here have stories of how they helped Jews to escape to Spain or Switserland or hide them in their houses, monasteries, etc. in all documentories about WWII you can see that the jews did trust French citizens much more than Germans, who in general very loyal to the nazi-regime. You are right about the collective personality, german people are much more law-obiding than French.
But i think anti-semitism in both Germany and France were still low compared to Romania, Poland or pre-revolutionnary Russia.

"All of these latter methods take a much longer time and are not as effective as outright enforcement. Despite the fact that I am in favor of women's rights and being against Islamic fundamentalism, I do worry about the possible psychic trauma that this prohibition might have on the girls. On the other hand, maybe this is the only effective response and the girls will benefit in many ways. I would like be interested to know how Arab women (or other women) in France are doing in terms of professional careers. "

yes, it's not an easy decision, but i think ultimately indeed prohibition will benefit them on the long run.
Women in France are very emancipated, and almost all women have a job, even most Arab ones (but less than the majority of French). It is true however that the highest posts are still usually occupied by men, even if it's changing fast. But women, and particularly arab women, are doing great in education, according to research the majority of graduates are women, and the majority of arab girls start higher education and find easily a highstanding job, in fact more easily than Arab men, who have a bad reputation.
But in the house, in both arab and ordinary french households, the woman is still responsible for the daily duties.
For the first generation Arabs here it is difficult to deal with their liberated daughter or grand-daughter or daughter-in-law who likes to wear mini-skirts etc., that's why they prefere them to marry with someone from the home-land, but such marriages usually fail because of the difference in culture.

"Just so long as you have a sudden pro-Israel revelation in the midst of your suffering, I hope your rough days are over shortly :-)
(Even so, I hope they are.)"

thanks, I sometimes have pro-israeli revelations but i won't post them because it would ruin my reputation on this forum :)

cerulean

06-20-2002, 05:06 PM

In short, yes the West Coast has many diverse climates, most of them great. You'll find every race, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion represented. It's not really comparable to Oklahoma other than that the population is American.

As for your hidden pro-Israel revelations, I guess forum members will have to start applying reverse psychology :).

elke

06-21-2002, 06:29 PM

A billboard at the Port Authority Bus Terminal in New York (advertising a ski resort):

"More flakes than LA (Los Angeles)!" :D

(Actually, I thought LA to be great! :) Didn't notice any extra flakes, either)

takeo

06-21-2002, 07:22 PM

LOL :)

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 09:05 PM

i don't think french are more anti-semitic than Germans

Other than that Mrs. Kennedy, how was the motorcade?

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
In short, yes the West Coast has many diverse climates, most of them great. You'll find every race, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion represented. It's not really comparable to Oklahoma other than that the population is American.

And that not having F5 tornadoes thing - of course you do have the full complement of 4 seasons: mudslides, drought, fires, surfing.

Come to North Carolina! not too many twisters, not too many hurricanes and July is fine if you grew up in the Mekong Delta.

elke

06-21-2002, 09:26 PM

North Carolina is also very pretty, but it has a very crazy Insurance Department, - so no, I don't think I'll go. :D

cerulean

06-21-2002, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
And that not having F5 tornadoes thing - of course you do have the full complement of 4 seasons: mudslides, drought, fires, surfing.

You didn't mention earthquakes (although those aren't quite seasonal). There are the Seattle and Portland climates too which have variations something like cloudy, grey, misty, and rainy. (But the summers are nice.)

Come to North Carolina! not too many twisters, not too many hurricanes and July is fine if you grew up in the Mekong Delta.

I think my brain shuts off once the mercury rises above 80 degrees.

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 09:55 PM

That's us May-October. Humidity in the 40-75% range. Heat index in July is 115-125. 10 days over 90 so far, 98 the high @50% RH.

takeo

06-22-2002, 04:44 AM

I would love to live in north-Carolina for the climate (i like hot and humid, and some hurricanes to spice things up ;) the weather really sucks in Paris, I guess it must be pretty similar to the seattle climate :mad: ), if it wasn't for the people living there in the "baptist belt"!!!
california should be nice too, altough my niece was really disappointed in the climate in SF ("worse than Paris") altough some miles further it suddenly changes into hot desert! i heard that the climate is totally different depending where you live in SF, you can choose desert or humid and cold depending on the neighboorhood... i wish we had that here too...the climate is the worst consequence of living in northern Europe.
(by the way if you think that Southern france, Algeria or Tunisia is nice in winter, think twice) The climate in Oklahoma was nice, it reminds me of Southern Russia (the weather and landscape, not the people for God's sake!).

elke

06-22-2002, 06:36 AM

What?!! Baptist belt in Paris? What a concept! :D

And what's wrong with the people in Southern Russia?

Don't mind me - I'm just in a weird mood :)

takeo

06-22-2002, 09:30 PM

"And what's wrong with the people in Southern Russia? "

nothing, on the contrary, that's exactly what i mean :D

cerulean

06-23-2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by takeo

california should be nice too, altough my niece was really disappointed in the climate in SF ("worse than Paris") altough some miles further it suddenly changes into hot desert! i heard that the climate is totally different depending where you live in SF, you can choose desert or humid and cold depending on the neighboorhood... i wish we had that here too...the climate is the worst consequence of living in northern Europe.

Of course you can get just about any climate at all in California. On the northwest coast (like Eureka) you can get nonstop rain worse than just about anywhere. San Francisco is my favorite city in California! (Much as I hate to admit it, I really like Berkeley too.) The climate has been nice every time I've been there. You're right that the particular neighborhood in San Francisco makes a huge difference and you can get all sorts of different weather just traveling around for an hour or two.

Maybe your niece was unlucky, or we have different definitions of "nice." I like anything not too hot, usually. (You strike me as being very young to be an uncle. I hope you are being a good philosophical influence on your niece ;) )

takeo

06-23-2002, 05:13 AM

maybe i should say "cousin" rather than niece, the Americans were crazy about her, and not ONLY for her accent I presume... (but as well the Arabs, i guess in this case surprisingly few are anti-semitic :D )
My definition of nice weather is hot, so i enjoy the us during summertime!

elke

06-23-2002, 07:31 AM

If you like hot, then the great state of Texas may be for you! :D

The company I used to work for had a branch in Texas, and I spoke to my counterparts there on a daily basis. Every time I asked them, the temperature was outrageous! They also have a very pleasant, to my ear anyway, accent - and are generally very nice, (unless the manager of that branch simply had a knack for picking 'em) :)

christian

06-23-2002, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by takeo
maybe i should say "cousin" rather than niece, the Americans were crazy about her, and not ONLY for her accent I presume... (but as well the Arabs, i guess in this case surprisingly few are anti-semitic :D )
My definition of nice weather is hot, so i enjoy the us during summertime!

You mean your cousin is hotter than 80 degrees C. :eek: :D

takeo

06-23-2002, 10:41 AM

yes, who knows I might fall in love with Texas :eek:
But than of course all the usual things people think about Texans should be untrue...
I went to the other side, near the border in Monterrey, if texas is anything like it, than yes i like it, and yes, it is vey hot!
cerulean if you like anything not too hot, than Paris might be perfect for you...

elke

06-23-2002, 10:45 AM

I'll tell you what: I will give you the name and address of the company I worked for, and you can meet the nice Texans that way. Just be forewarned: this was a company owned and operated by the Episcopal Church! ;)

takeo

06-23-2002, 01:17 PM

I see, it's fun down there in Texas ;)
A communist working for a Texan episcopal company...

elke

06-23-2002, 01:27 PM

Shush! Bite your tongue! Me? A Communist? The closest I ever came was watching the Teletubbies with my daughter a few years back! ;)

takeo

06-23-2002, 04:03 PM

are the teletubbies commies? :eek:

elke

06-23-2002, 04:28 PM

Not really, but I saw some superb satire that called them... Commietubbies - and even made it convincing! :D

takeo

06-23-2002, 04:30 PM

great, would love to see that... I love American satire

elke

06-23-2002, 04:32 PM

Here it is... Remember, you asked for it! :)

http://members.tripod.com/~Telecommie/

takeo

06-23-2002, 04:35 PM

LOL :p

"Not since the controversial early episodes of Zoom has a childrens' television program generated as much debate as Teletubbies, the British show featuring four seemingly lovable little critters. Are they hallucinogenic? Is their endless baby-talk stunting the vocal development of a generation's worth of kids? Are they (gasp) gay?
Who cares? All this meaningless talk only serves to mask a much more serious problem: the myriad of subliminal pro-communist messages this so-called "educational show" uses to bombard our unsuspecting children, the ones most susceptible to its siren call. Skeptical? Read on, and judge for yourself. "

it reminds me of this post zionism=communism... (the difference that the other one was not intended to be funny...)

elke

06-23-2002, 04:42 PM

Pay special attention to Dipsy :D

Vic

06-23-2002, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by elke
Here it is... Remember, you asked for it! :)

http://members.tripod.com/~Telecommie/
Magnificient!
ROFL

takeo

06-23-2002, 05:24 PM

"Dipsy (Representing the Green-backed socialist coalition governments of modern-day Europe): Dipsy is the second biggest Teletubby [Europe's socialist economy is second in size only to that of the U.S.]. He is known for his distinctive steps and ways of saying "hello." [Coalition organizations must proceed with caution -- on tiptoes, as it were -- and employ diplomatic rhetoric or face dissolution.] He loves his hat very much [a clear reference to the EU, "covering" Europe with a common currency]. Dipsy sings a song with a reggae beat [reggae remains popular in England, which with its long dole lines and endless strikes, remains perhaps the best example of socialism by coalition] and when he is feeling "especially cool" will go for a walk by himself, wearing his hat and singing the song [Again, "The Internationale"]. "

:D

"A 'Tubby' Ache For Jerry Falwell
Religious Right Leader Sees Gay Threat in Children's TV Character"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-02/11/274l-021199-idx.html

one can say a lot about yankees, but for sure they are funny people!

Mediocrates

06-23-2002, 05:39 PM

"how can anyone run a country with 350 different kinds of cheese"

-De Gaulle

takeo

06-23-2002, 05:45 PM

LOL :D

especially if you hate cheese...

cerulean

06-23-2002, 05:45 PM

I read a while ago it was all the rage in Britain to watch Teletubbies as part of the process of coming down from taking E and clubbing.

Can't let that go without a reference, so here is one:
Originally from the NYT, but posted at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6g0qva%24fnp%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com&oe=UTF8&output=gplain )
....Teenagers, according to hip magazines for the young, like to come home for all-night ecstasy-fueled raves, switch on "Teletubbies" (the series is shown in Britain early on weekday and Sunday mornings) and deconstruct what they see as encoded druggie messages, as if it were the 1960s and they were listening to "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." And in September, when the produces dismissed Dave Thompson, the actor who originally played Tinky Winky and who was known, apparently, for waving his handbag in a particualrly flamboyant manner, Thompson's situation became national news....

elke

06-23-2002, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
I read a while ago it was all the rage in Britain to watch Teletubbies as part of the process of coming down from taking E and clubbing.

Can't let that go without a reference, so here is one:
Originally from the NYT, but posted at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6g0qva%24fnp%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com&oe=UTF8&output=gplain )
....Teenagers, according to hip magazines for the young, like to come home for all-night ecstasy-fueled raves, switch on "Teletubbies" (the series is shown in Britain early on weekday and Sunday mornings) and deconstruct what they see as encoded druggie messages, as if it were the 1960s and they were listening to "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." And in September, when the produces dismissed Dave Thompson, the actor who originally played Tinky Winky and who was known, apparently, for waving his handbag in a particualrly flamboyant manner, Thompson's situation became national news....

Yes, "Teletubbies are the opium for the people" :D

L@mplighterM

06-23-2002, 08:26 PM

Par of article:

Israel and the Anti-Semites
by Gabriel Schoenfeld

LET US begin at the popular level, where there has been, first of all, a rash of physical attacks on Jewish symbols, Jewish institutions, and Jews themselves. The list of such violent incidents from the first two weeks of April alone is too long to summarize adequately.

In the Ukrainian capital of Kiev, for example, some 50 youths chanting “Kill the Jews” descended on a synagogue on a Saturday evening, broke twenty windows, and beat the rector of the religious school with stones. In Greece, Jewish cemeteries were vandalized in what the press termed “anti-Jewish acts of revenge,” and the Holocaust memorial in Salonika, a city whose 50,000 Jews were rounded up and deported to Nazi death camps in 1943, was defaced with Palestinian slogans. In Slovakia, Jewish cemeteries were desecrated in what an official described as the “biggest attack on the Jewish community since the Holocaust.”

In peaceful, democratic, law-abiding Western Europe—a part of the world that for the past half-century has prided itself on the degree of personal safety it affords its inhabitants—the story was similar. One scene of violent anti-Israel demonstrations was Holland, where protestors hurled rocks and bottles and small roving bands used stones and bicycles to shatter store windows in the heart of Amsterdam. In neighboring Belgium, five firebombs were tossed into a synagogue in a working-class district of Brussels, and a Jewish bookstore was severely damaged by arsonists; a synagogue in Antwerp was firebombed with Molotov cocktails, and in the same city a travel agency specializing in trips to Israel was also set alight.

In Germany, two Orthodox Jews were beaten while strolling on Berlin’s chic Kurfuerstendamm, the heart of the city’s shopping district. A woman wearing a star-of-David necklace was attacked in the subway. Jewish memorials in Berlin were defaced with swastikas; a synagogue was spray-painted with the words, “Six Million Is Not Enough. PLO.” Anti-Israel demonstrators hurled bricks through windows as they marched.

In England, reported the London Express, “race-hate attacks on the Jewish community have soared.” In the first ten days of April there were fifteen anti-Semitic incidents, including eight physical assaults. Most of the attacks in England were on Jews walking alone, set upon and beaten by small roving bands. At least two of the victims required hospitalization.

France was the epicenter of aggression. Gangs of hooded men descended on Jewish victims and struck them with iron clubs. Buses carrying Jewish schoolchildren were stoned. Cemeteries were desecrated. Synagogues, Jewish schools, student facilities, and kosher stores were defaced, battered, and firebombed. On April 1, the Or Aviv synagogue in Marseille was burned to the ground, its prayerbooks and Torah scrolls consumed by flames; it was one of five synagogues in France attacked. The first half of the month saw “nearly 360 crimes against Jews and Jewish institutions,” according to the French interior ministry—amounting, in the words of the New York Times, to “the worst spate of anti-Jewish violence” in France since World War II.

Some observers have drawn comparisons between this violent crime wave and Kristallnacht—the pogrom unleashed by the Nazis against German Jews on November 9 and 10, 1938. Unlike in the 1930’s, however, there was no organized power behind the assaults, let alone a government, and in every European country the police, so far as one knows, did their duty (though the political authorities often stood aside until matters threatened to get out of control). Still, physical violence against Jews has undeniably become a pan-European phenomenon, visible in every country north and south, east and west. Everywhere one turns, moreover, this physical violence has been accompanied, and abetted, by an explosion of verbal violence.

The themes are also the same everywhere. Israel, a country victimized by terrorism, stands accused of perpetrating terrorism; the Jews, having suffered the most determined and thoroughgoing genocide in history, stand accused of perpetrating genocide. The language in which these accusations are leveled is extravagantly hateful, drawn from the vocabulary of World War II and the Holocaust but entirely and grotesquely inverted, with the Jews as Nazis and their Arab tormentors in the role of helpless Jews.

Still sticking to the popular level, events in early April were once again particularly instructive. In the course of two weeks, anti-Israel street demonstrations took place not only in every major European capital but in hundreds of minor cities and towns. In Tuzla, a town in Bosnia, some 1,500 demonstrators carried placards reading “Sharon and Hitler, Two Eyes in the Same Head” and “Israel—the Real Face of Terrorism.” In Dublin, Ireland, the banners, several featuring Nazi swastikas superimposed over stars of David, read “Stop the Palestinian Holocaust” and “Jerusalem: Forever Beloved, Forever Palestinian.” In Barcelona, Spain, demonstrators carried placards inscribed “Israel Murderer; USA Accomplice,” and “No to Genocide.” In Paris, the posters read “Hitler Has a Son: Sharon”; in Belgium, “Hitler Had Two Sons: Bush and Sharon.” In Salonika, a solidarity concert was staged under the slogan: “Stop the Genocide Now—We Are All Palestinians.” In Bilbao, Spain, thousands marched through the streets chanting “No to Zionist terrorism.” In Berlin, the placards read “Stop the Genocide in Palestine” and “Sharon is a Child Murderer.” In cities and towns across France, “Death to Jews” and “Jews—murderers” were refrains heard at a multitude of rallies.

THE CATALOG is infinitely expandable, for not only is it incomplete in itself but the passage of each day has brought new acts of violence, new demonstrations, and new and more vicious slogans. Who is behind all this street-level activity?

Actual physical violence against Jews has been, for the most part, the work of Muslims. According to the French ministry of the interior, the perpetrators have generally been “Arab youths from North African countries.” Arriving from societies where hatred of Jews is fostered by government, government-controlled media, and radical clerics, these immigrants are fed a rich and stimulating diet from the Arab and European Arab-language press, whose brand of anti-Semitism is as hallucinatory as anything ever peddled by Julius Streicher in the Nazi organ Der Stürmer.

http://commentary.org/schoenfeld.htm

sikanderhind

06-30-2002, 06:29 PM

The hatred for jews is there in every muslim, young or old, rich or poor.

Why?? I an not a jew or a moslem and I fail to see this hatred.

I think both of you follow same bookish religions. Christians also.

Why the hatred then???

Vic

07-01-2002, 02:03 AM

I don't believe that religion is the primary impulse for this hatred. In case of modern Islamic antisemitism religion serves as a vehicle for the underlying faschistoid mentality.

L@mplighterM

07-03-2002, 07:55 AM

Snip from article:

På onsdagen grep tysk polis sex misstänkta terrorister i Hamburg. De anklagas för att ha planerat terrorattacker i samröre med terrornätverket al-Qaida.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,181445,00.html

Six suspected terrorists arrested in Germany they are accused of planning terrorist attacks with al-Qaida.

cerulean

07-06-2002, 12:41 PM

Allah Mode
France's Islam problem.
by Christopher Caldwell
07/15/2002, Volume 007, Issue 42

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/435tebxi.asp

...
FRANCE HAS A PROBLEM with its Muslim population that may be too multifaceted to solve. There have been Muslims in France since the colonization of Algeria in the 1830s, and there were tens of thousands as early as the 1920s, when France officially welcomed Islam in a gesture of gratitude to the Algerian soldiers who had shocked the country with their patriotism, self-sacrifice, and bravery in the Great War. The government, which is working desperately to formulate an official policy on Islam, now estimates its Muslim population at 4 to 5 million. Most social scientists believe this number is too low, speaking of as many as 8 million Muslims in France (and 12 to 20 million in the European Union). These numbers underestimate the weight of French Islam, since the population is concentrated and--thanks to a birthrate that, while falling, remains a multiple of the native-French one--extremely young. In parts of Paris, Marseilles, Rhone-Alpes, and Strasbourg, between a third and half of people in their teens and twenties are Muslim. These offspring of immigrants are referred to (and refer to themselves) as beurs. More invidiously, the word jeunes (or "youths") has come to be used as a euphemism for "Arab thugs," much as "inner city" served for decades as an American code word for "horrible black neighborhood."
[...]
DOWN THE STREET from Kamel Hamza's offices in La Courneuve is the Union of French Islamic Organizations (UOIF). This is the largest umbrella organization of French Muslims, and it is skewed to the far, far right of national opinion. (At its convention in Le Bourget in March, the UOIF drew 100,000 people to attend presentations on such topics as "Liberated Women, De-Natured Women.") The two dominant forces within the UOIF are Saudi Arabian foundations, which use generous subsidies to steer Muslim organizations towards profession of Wahhabi extremism, and the francophone branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded by the Egyptian Hassan al-Banna. A hard-line fraternity whose theories of Islam are at the root of al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood has been increasingly active in France since the late 1980s. The European Muslim Brothers are under the intellectual leadership of Tariq Ramadan, the Swiss-born grandson of al-Banna himself. Now a university professor in Geneva, Ramadan is a sort of French-Muslim Noam Chomsky, a cheery, media-hungry radical, much in demand on campuses.
...

cerulean

07-06-2002, 10:32 PM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787703793

Jul. 4, 2002
GUEST COLUMN: France's Jewish problem
By MICHEL GURFINKIEL
In 1928, the young New York intellectual Sidney Hook embarked on a tour of Europe that included several months in Germany. More than a half-century later, he would write in his memoirs, Out of Step: "As incredible as it may sound to most people today, anti-Semitism was much less apparent at the time in Berlin than in New York City."
[...]
ANOTHER tactic favored by the authorities was to pretend that what was plaguing France was a problem in "community relations." Abetting this false rendition of reality was the French taste for intellectual symmetry, which has always exceeded the French taste for fact. Evil and the urge to evil, being integral components of human nature, must be equally distributed (it is held) among individuals, communities, nations and races. In the bitter paraphrase of Philippe Desproges, a French humorist of the Seventies: "Of course, the Nazis didn't like the Jews. But to be fair, one has to admit that the Jews didn't like the Nazis, either."

Today's version of this sort of "analysis" took a no less twisted form. Insofar as French Jews were victims, they had to be seen as villains, too; and since most of the violence against them stemmed from the French Muslim community, it followed that the culprit must be some kind of reciprocal tension between the two communities.
...
=====

This intellectual symmetry concept is hardly restricted to the French, of course. I seem to hear or read it all the time in respect to numerous issues.

elke

07-07-2002, 08:56 AM

I think that this concept of "symmetry" is really an outgrowth of the Age of Reason mentality: for everything there is a rational underpinning. Therefore, for any hatered there is a reason of some sort - if nothing else, then the corresponding hatered. It seems to me that this is not unique to France, but rather to the Western intellectualism in general, which strives to rationalize and reason out any and all events and attitudes.

The problem is that attitudes are subjective, so that at some point such attempts become mired in moral relativism, under the guise of "even-handedness". Although questioning the rationales of all attitudes and actions is a positive development, some sort of an objective standard must be used, even if only to determine the progression of the chicken vs. the egg.

cerulean

07-07-2002, 12:06 PM

Good points, elke.

==
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2002/07/07/dl0701.xml

The silence of the dons
(Filed: 07/07/2002)

It is deeply embarrassing for British academia that it has taken the intervention of an American scholar to draw attention to the disgraceful treatment of Dr Miriam Shlesinger and Professor Gideon Toury. As we report today, Stephen Greenblatt, a professor at Harvard University, is leading the protest against the dismissal of the Israeli academics from the board of two scholarly journals run by Mona Baker, a teacher at the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology (UMIST). Dr Shlesinger and Prof Toury have been dismissed solely because of their nationality.
...

cerulean

07-08-2002, 01:58 AM

Jul. 8, 2002
UK professor fires two Israelis as part of anti-Israel boycott
By DOUGLAS DAVIS
...
Egyptian-born Baker, director of the university's Center for Translation and Intercultural Studies, told the Sunday Telegraph: "I deplore the Israeli state." But she insisted she was not against Israelis as such: "It is Israeli institutions as part of the Israeli state which I absolutely deplore."

The pair, she said, would have been able to keep their jobs if they had left Israel for Britain and severed all ties with their homeland.

Her decision to sack them reflected "my interpretation of what a boycott of Israel means," she said. "Many people in Europe have signed a boycott against Israel. Israel has gone beyond just war crimes. It is horrific what is going on there. Many of us would like to talk about it as some kind of Holocaust which the world will eventually wake up to, much too late, of course, as they did with the last one."
...
=====

It isn't clear to me whether these particular academic journals receive public funding, but most do.

elke

07-08-2002, 03:43 AM

"The pair, she said, would have been able to keep their jobs if they had left Israel for Britain and severed all ties with their homeland."

And we call that what? "Interpretation of a boycott"? This is a discrimination case, pure and simple.

cerulean

07-08-2002, 09:01 PM

Greece has been mentioned on a couple of other threads. This article has some mention of the situation there.
==
Jul. 8, 2002
OSCE condemns anti-Semitism
By TOVAH LAZAROFF

The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe unanimously passed a resolution yesterday condemning anti-Semitism as a danger to European security, democracy, public opinion, and peace. The resolution also calls for better protection of European Jews and follow-ups to verify compliance with the resolution on the part of the 55 member countries of the OSCE. The resolution was passed at the OSCE's annual five-day meeting in Berlin.
...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787727372

takeo

07-09-2002, 07:50 AM

Cerulean and elke, the articles provided about France are really not accurate. I've no time now to respond properly (thesis...) but in a few weeks time i'll respond, because the articles are really disinformation.
People in France don't try to be "evenhanded" or "symmetrical", that's more something typical for the more "politically correct" Northern Europeans or Anglosaxons. French people are in fact more emotional and less rational in their responses and analyses than Americans (as in Israel and the Arab world, Italy, spain or Eastern Europe as well). in fact the French see the jews as victims in WWII, but it's very hard to consider israel, with its military superiority, occupation-force oppressing the palestinians for decades, in violation of numerous un-resolutions, as the victims...(but the French DO see the innocent victim of a suicide-attack as a victim, but they, as people all over the world and all over Europe, see the palestinians as victims too, "moral equality" is not some kind of French invention, but the conception in France is that israel's occupation and policy against the Arabs and palestinians is responsible for the current violence, while NOONE thinks that jewish policy was responsible for the Holocaust... (as many French thinkthat the 11th september attacks were a result of us-interfearance in the middle East, which is by the way a general European conception too, not only French), no soffisticated theories behind it...
We have the advantage of seeing the problem from a distance, without too much emotional involvement as in israel or the us.
And it's true, as all over Europe and the US, some Mosques are possessed by radicals, which is a great danger, but on the other hand many "youth" (as is indeed a commonly used name for "arabs") are no longer religious, i would say the majority of them. Those are still pro-palestine of course, because they are still their "Arab" brothers (however many even don't care about politics at all), but not for religious reasons.

Some more elaborated answer will follow if you would be interested.

Mediocrates

07-09-2002, 08:04 AM

Dare I ask what your thesis is on?

takeo

07-09-2002, 09:07 AM

about repression in French Equatorial Africa during the 50's.

cerulean

07-10-2002, 06:24 AM

Good luck with your thesis takeo. I'd be interested in hearing more at a later date (like after you finish it).

I know that it does seem to be a European belief that 9/11 was caused by US actions in the Middle East, although Osama showed no interest in Palestinians until recently for convenience's sake.

=======
From a 1998 article:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.98/news.htm#FRE

30,000 French Embrace Islam Annually
PARIS : Nearly 30,000 French citizens embrace Islam annually, according to a French daily newspaper. The daily said Islam’s appeal extends to all classes and groups including members of Parliament, doctors, engineers, youth and ordinary workers. It said nearly 300 persons embrace Judaism annually. Figures of French persons embracing Islam are said to be higher than all other European Countries. (IINA)

The IslamicVoice.com site, which is based in India, is interesting on its own.

Vic

07-10-2002, 06:32 AM

And as soon as you are done with your thesis, Takeo, I'd like to hear your opinion on this article too:

Allah Mode
France's Islam problem.
by Christopher Caldwell
07/15/2002, Volume 007, Issue 42
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/435tebxi.asp

Until then - good luck :)

takeo

07-10-2002, 09:39 AM

Thanks :)

cerulean

07-11-2002, 06:06 AM

Perfidious Belgium: Watch out, Britain, says Paul Belien: Belgium has become a major recruiting base for al-Qa’eda

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old&section=current&issue=2002-07-13&id=2045
...
A second reason to distrust Belgian citizens is that they may be dangerous. Flemings and Walloons have for decades been fighting over Brussels. The French-speaking Walloons have dominated Belgium since its invention in 1830. Today, they feel threatened by the growing demographic and economic power of the Dutch-speaking Flemings. In their search for allies, the Walloon leadership is bestowing Belgian citizenship on almost any immigrant entering the country, including criminals and Muslim terrorists, who claims he can speak French.

According to a recent inquiry ordered by a Belgian parliamentary commission, Brussels has become a major recruiting base for al-Qa’eda and a launch-pad for terrorist attacks on neighbouring countries. The commission investigated the failure of the Sûreté de l’Etat, the Belgian secret service, to screen Islamic terrorists. On 5 June, Mrs Godelieve Timmermans, the head of the Sûreté, resigned after the report concluded that the Sûreté had remained passive because it had found no indications that the terrorists would attack Belgian targets, and also because the Sûreté did not want to discredit certain corrupt Belgian authorities or politicians for fear that these might attribute to the secret service ‘a racist or xenophobic attitude towards immigrants or Muslims’.
...
=======

I wonder if there is any motivation for Belgium's fellow members of the EU to pressure Belgium in this regard.

cerulean

07-11-2002, 11:34 AM

Another one of those exploding anti-Semitic signs in Russia has killed a naval officer.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185742&sw=russia

Quote from the article:
...
The Russian government has said that it regards these incidents as grave and has instructed the internal security service and police to investigate them. Jewish organizations in Russia, however, are trying to minimize the problem.

The explosions are part of a general increase in the number of anti-Semitic incidents in Russia in the past several months, including desecration of gravestones in Jewish cemeteries and graffiti on synagogues.
...

Mediocrates

07-11-2002, 12:00 PM

So the new policy should be to simply blow up the sign with an artillery shell or maybe spray it with a paint filled firehose.

elke

07-11-2002, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
Good luck with your thesis takeo. I'd be interested in hearing more at a later date (like after you finish it).

I know that it does seem to be a European belief that 9/11 was caused by US actions in the Middle East, although Osama showed no interest in Palestinians until recently for convenience's sake.

=======
From a 1998 article:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.98/news.htm#FRE

30,000 French Embrace Islam Annually
PARIS : Nearly 30,000 French citizens embrace Islam annually, according to a French daily newspaper. The daily said Islam’s appeal extends to all classes and groups including members of Parliament, doctors, engineers, youth and ordinary workers. It said nearly 300 persons embrace Judaism annually. Figures of French persons embracing Islam are said to be higher than all other European Countries. (IINA)

The IslamicVoice.com site, which is based in India, is interesting on its own.

Very interesting site, indeed! Look at this:

"The Center for Research and Studies, an offshoot of Qatar’s Ministry of Endowments and Islamic Affairs, has published a new book on human rights, entitled Human Rights Between the Shariah and the Law, authored by Dr. Munir Hameed Al-Bayaty... The book also explains how the Islamic faith ensures for Muslim societies security and safety that are non-existent in other civilizations of the contemporary world ."
(emphasis added)

Another one for the "jokes" thread! :D

Good luck with your thesis, Takeo, you'll do fine! :)

takeo

07-11-2002, 06:03 PM

thanks elke, i hope it 'll be OK, yet i lost too much time on the internet ;)

cerulean

07-11-2002, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by takeo
thanks elke, i hope it 'll be OK, yet i lost too much time on the internet ;)

The more I have to do, the more I post on the Internet :)

takeo

07-11-2002, 06:38 PM

Me too!
a kind of stress symptoms perhaps?

elke

07-11-2002, 06:39 PM

Yes, less fattening than ice cream, for sure! ;)

cerulean

07-11-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by elke
Yes, less fattening than ice cream, for sure! ;)

Not if you're both posting and eating at the same time! (Ice cream is not my weakness, though.)

Mr. Pumps

07-11-2002, 06:46 PM

Is it the native French or the four million Algerians and Moroccans on French soil who are doing the acts?

takeo

07-11-2002, 07:15 PM

if there wouldn't be internet i would probably have to join the "fat-pride" movement, with 95 instead of 65 kg...

Mediocrates

07-12-2002, 05:47 AM

you don't extinguish addictions you merely substitute them.

cerulean

07-12-2002, 12:47 PM

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=314275

Up to 4,000 British Muslims were trained at al-Qa'ida terror camps
By Kim Sengupta
12 July 2002
No less than 4,000 Britons have received training at al-Qa'ida camps in the past 10 years, security sources say.

Far greater numbers of British Muslims volunteered to fight for Osama bin Laden's organisation and the Taliban regime in Afghanistan than was previously known, and the vast majority of them are back in this country.

Britain's close alliance with the US in the "war on terror" and the deployment of troops in Afghanistan means it is a prime target for terrorists and attacks are inevitable, Western intelligence officials say.
...
====
The article goes on to say most of these are probably not a threat now, but some are, that recruitment is ongoing, it's impossible to foil all terrorist plots, and Britain is a prime target.

cerulean

07-12-2002, 01:41 PM

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2002/07/12/international1728EDT0729.DTL
Militant Muslim leaders, some accused of supporting terror, hold conference in London

ED JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer Friday, July 12, 2002
(07-12) 14:28 PDT LONDON (AP) --

A cadre of militant Muslim leaders, including some linked to al-Qaida or accused by the United States of supporting terrorism, held a conference Friday to condemn the United States in a show of defiance.

Among the speakers at the event were Egyptian activist Yasser el-Sirri, who is facing extradition to the United States for allegedly sending terror money to Afghanistan, and Abu Hamza al-Masri, a cleric whose funds were frozen by the U.S. Treasury for his alleged membership in the Islamic Army of Aden. The organization is linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network and claimed responsibility for the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen in October 2000 in which 17 U.S sailors were killed.
...
========
These last two articles somehow combine to make me a little leery of visiting London, whether that's logical or not.

Mr. Pumps

07-12-2002, 01:50 PM

:) I never understood how John Lindh joined the Taliban, he was a Upper Middle Class Kid, I would think the ones left behind by Capitalism would be more willing.

Mediocrates

07-12-2002, 02:09 PM

Che was a doctor and the son of an influential family.

Osama is sitting on millions.

cerulean

07-13-2002, 10:40 AM

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=186194&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1&contrassID=2

Background / Are Russian signpost bombings anti-Semitism?

===
There's a dispute in Russia about whether the various exploding anti-Semitic signs are copycat crimes or an organized campaign.

elke

07-14-2002, 08:58 AM

Canadian murder case, apparently this morning:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=186562&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

Quote from the article:

"Toronto police chief Julian Fantino said Sunday that the murder of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish man in the city in the early hours of Sunday morning was "a murder motivated by hate."

Speaking at a press conference, Fantino said that the attack was racially-motivated, but that the 49-year-old father of six was an innocent passerby, killed "because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time."

cerulean

07-14-2002, 11:32 AM

What Happened to Uncle Shmiel?
By DANIEL MENDELSOHN

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/14/magazine/14HOLOCAUST.html?8hpist
===
A man and his sister return to the Ukraine to try to find out what happened to their relatives murdered by the Nazis. Mendelsohn is a powerful writer.

===
Who's the real racist?
By MARTIN LEVIN

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=3&tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=holocaust&option=&start_row=3&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1

An article about Jose Saramago, a Nobel Prize laureate in Literature from Portugal.

Quote: Saramago called Israel's invasion of Ramallah "a crime comparable to Auschwitz."

cerulean

07-14-2002, 11:38 AM

Controversial memorial carved out of German guilt
Living near history
Jeannie Marshall
National Post

Saturday, July 13, 2002

http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=30A26C74-9A69-48CE-86DB-47BA1FC3C7C2

Quote:
It is true that the memory of the war years was suppressed until the so-called second generation began pushing the discussion in the 1970s and 1980s. But that generation makes sure their children and grandchildren know the story. "If you are a young German now in school, you talk about this past in at least three or four disciplines," says the Berlin journalist and novelist Peter Schneider. We are sitting in a café below his apartment. "And you can see that many young Germans are trying to push it away. It's too much. You read in the newspapers that half of the young Germans say they have never heard about the Holocaust. Well, I heard almost nothing in my day [he's 62 this year], but now it's different. Young people are saying, 'We don't know about it and we don't want to know about it,' because the story has been told in such a way that they have to try to defend themselves from it. Their ignorance is not ignorance, it is aversion. This is because the story is told in a way that creates only guilt. It's easy to say to these young people: 'You are not guilty.' But psychologically it works the other way. You have to offer exits."
===

I'm puzzled by the simultaneous claims that the Holocaust is taught constantly and that half of young Germans claim not to have heard of the Holocaust.

cerulean

07-15-2002, 07:28 PM

Imam at German Mosque Preached Hate to 9/11 Pilots
By DOUGLAS FRANTZ and DESMOND BUTLER
HAMBURG, Germany, July 11 — The German police are examining the activities of a former religious leader at a small mosque here who preached murderous hatred of the United States to Mohamed Atta and others who planned and executed the attacks on Sept. 11.
The police and intelligence officials said the imam, whom they know only by his surname, al-Fazazi, preached an unusually heated stream of anti-Western and anti-Jewish abuse at the mosque, called Al Quds. Mr. Atta, the presumed organizer of the attacks and pilot of one of the aircraft that hit the World Trade Center, attended the mosque, as did other members of the Hamburg cell.
[...]
Mr. Fazazi said that "Christians and Jews should have their throats slit" and called on followers to "fight the Americans as long as they are keeping Muslims in prison," according to videotaped sermons seized earlier this month in raids by the Hamburg state police on a bookstore two blocks from the mosque, the police said.

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/16/international/europe/16GERM.html

cerulean

07-16-2002, 10:20 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_2132000/2132048.stm

In respect to the recent murder of a Hasidic Jewish man:

Quote: "The evidence available to us ... does not support this occurrence being categorised as a hate motivated crime," Staff-Inspector Bob Clarke said.

Mediocrates

07-16-2002, 10:36 AM

If you eliminate the impossible whatever left is probably the reason.

What OTHER reason do they offer? What kind of blockhead thinking goes into this? Do these professionals honestly believe someone has to break down on a dark rural road and be captured by an inbred gang of cattle ranchers before they believe that it's antisemitism? Do they think this kind of thing simply happen in one of their cities? I've spent time there and it's a big city just like any other albeit cleaner and fewer street people.

Vic

07-18-2002, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by cerulean (post #147 http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=16410#post16410 )
Controversial memorial carved out of German guilt
Living near history
Jeannie Marshall
National PostThere is a lot to say about this article. As an analysis of the situation it's rather superficial, the author is not entirely acquainted with the finer details of German language usage. Yet the conversations themselves seem genuine, and here is an aspect that has been troubling me for years:Tom is 25. He thinks young Germans have a hard role to play, but a good one. "At school we were confronted with pictures of dead people with tortured bodies -- pictures that probably wouldn't be shown to children in the United States. You carry those images around inside of you like a psychosis because you were so young when you had to start learning about it," he says. "But the psychosis is good, because when you visit other countries you realize you don't identify with being a German. You have a broken perspective and you see yourself as an individual person rather than as a German. A lot of people think the memorial is stupid because it is too large, too ugly or too expensive. They think it should all be over now. But I think it's very good for us. We should stay like this, exactly as we are now, remembering all the time."Most of this is valid not just for Germany, but for many other European countries as well. Schoolchildrean are served such pictures, a couple of equally grisly details to accompany them, some statements that sound more like slogans (on the line of: the Nazis did it in Germany, the Germans did it elsewhere) and left to fend with it for themselves. It takes better knowledge of human psychological trauma and the resulting perversions that I possess, still there remains a question that I am almost afraid to ask (maybe today is the most suitable day for it):

What if the Palestinians are reenacting the physical defilement of Jews, creating for the European perception a kind of snuff movie with an alibi-like political pretext? Is this the explanation for their sheer boundless popularity, obviously growing and not diminishing with each attack?

I think that most of us who have had to deal with antisemitism themselves know that it is less an opinion than a mental condition, corresponding to certain kinds of personalities. Something you can smell most of the time well in advance. This would be the logical continuation, creating the firmest bond imaginable.

minusthejihad

07-18-2002, 01:04 PM

Speaking of France, this Saturday Night Live skit paints a pretty accurate picture of France IMO:

http://www.mideasttruth.com/snlfrance.mpg

danholo

07-18-2002, 02:09 PM

minusthejihad,

Thanks for posting that delightful view on France by the SNL team.
It was hilarious :)

minusthejihad

07-18-2002, 02:30 PM

Thanks. I liked it myself. Too bad the country's beauty, art, architecture, and food have to be conected to its inhabitants. It's also a shame that Puzzled (the one pretending to be a self-hating Jew) still hasn't explained to me why tons of Jews are leaving France for Israel. Now why would one want to leave such a wonderful place for a chance to get blown up? Hmmm, I wonder just how close to real life this **** parody is.

Oh, and about the Finnish Nazi. I wouldn't worry too much about him. The only reason he, and people like him (Phillip, Droberts, AmericaNumber1, STT), get away with spouting anti-semetic hatred on-line is because they are too scared to say it to my or many of my comrades faces. I wait for that day, when I can unleash some anger into a Nazi punching bag. Personally, I think ALL Jews should depend on themselves (as history proves), learn to fight while increasing their knowledge, and arm themselves, just in case. The day that some Nazi F*** or some idiot terrorist supporter comes near me, my family or friends, and/or my property and tries to hurt me, that will be his or her last day.

takeo

07-18-2002, 03:20 PM

as i said i will respond in about two weeks time, when i finished my thesis, which isn't getting on very well (maybe the stereotype of the lasy frenchman is correct after all, but than again you're born in the Soviet-union...).
just this: you're a ******* xenofobic, nationalist and militarist freak who knows absolutely nothing about France! "arm ourselves" you sound like one of those extreme right-wing para-military organisations in the US, or like the nut who tried to kill president Chirac because "our nation can't support any longer a left-wing Jew-lover as a president"!

danholo

07-18-2002, 03:44 PM

takeo,

Are you saying that we are supposed to talk peace with Nazis?
What a joke, it isn't possible. I don't like weapons but sometimes weapons are the only choice. If you say Nazis aren't to be fought against, think again.

minusthejihad

07-18-2002, 04:10 PM

as i said i will respond in about two weeks time, when i finished my thesis, which isn't getting on very well (maybe the stereotype of the lasy frenchman is correct after all, but than again you're born in the Soviet-union...).

Takeo,

Are you Pouzzler too? I didn't know that. Why use 2 names? If you aren't, then why respond to my posts intended for Pouzzler. As I said in a previous post, I don't hate the French, but every single one I met, with the exception of this lady the other day who works for our company, I haven't liked them. Of course there are good French people out there, just like there are some good Arabs out there. And as I stated, I am a Jew from the Soviet Union. You may not know it, and some other Russian-Jews may not know it, but there is a HUGE difference. From all of my experiences, Russians have never liked me nor my family, and we left because of this persecution. And I can not speak for the rest of Russian Jews out there, but in my family and community in the Detroit area, we have very high standards and ethics. We are all very accomplished, intelligent, and compassionate, and I don't know one that has a drinking problem. So please do not insult me by comparing me to an everyday Russian.

you're a ******* xenofobic, nationalist and militarist freak who knows absolutely nothing about France!

OK, you may be right. Except that I have friends from virtually all cultures, including several Palestinians, Lebanese Christians, and Chaldeans from Lansing and Detroit, Michigan that I keep in constant contact with (and as long as we don't watch the news together we get along wonderfuly). The definition of xenophobia is :"A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples."

1. I don't think the fact that I am a Jew, which makes me a target to over 35% of the world, constitutes that I am "unduly fearful". I'd think that the fact that I go to Jewsih Community Centers or Synangogues (there I don't go much, unless I have to appease my religious friends), puts me at risk and it is SMART not PARANOID to watch your back in light of what is going on today.

2. I am a foreigner in America, especially to Americans. I also have lived in Detroit Michigan most of my life, one of the least homogenous population centers in AMerica, and now I live in San Diego, CA, where I talk Spanish to Mexicans or Mexican-Americans. I also speak several languages and plan on learning more throughout my life. Lastly, I have travelled to at least 4 continents and plan on going to Peru in a cuple months and possibly Japan thereater. SO I think Xenophobia was a bad choice of words.

3. Nationalistic? Why? Because I disagree with the majority of France and especially their government? I love Israel and I haven't even been there yet. Canada ain't bad, nor is Jamaica, the Bahamas, etc. I'm hardly nationalist (I don't have a flag everywhere either), but I know when to support my government and my people, and I don't subscribe to the snooty arrogance I have felt from most of the French people I have met. In fact, a girl friend of mine just got back from studying there and admitted to being harrassed daily by French men with sexist, immature comments. Maybe I'm nationalistic or proud that my family has been accepted here and has helped our country grow and prosper greater than the combined nations of EUrope. You be the judge.

4. Militaristic? Hardly. My last fight was in sixth grade (I won by the way), and I have been an ardent pacifist until I became the target of hatred, anti-semitism, and potential terrorist attacks. I personally have a stance on pacifism: it's great until you get your ass kicked. Then what? Also, I have never been in any military, but if America needs me to defend my home and family, I will gladly oblige. Or if Israel is on its way to defeat, I will also volunteer like that great Meryll Lynch exec. Until then I enjoy relative Peace over in my cozy spot. But don't be fooled. Jews never ever thought the Holocaust could happen, and if there's anything I learned: NEVER AGAIN.

So Takeo, I'll wait 2 weeks. Good luck on your thesis. Within that time, I'll have probably learned 3 ways to disarm and choke a would-be attacker, and have purchased a gun by then. Any suggestions on what kind to get Mr. Pumps?

takeo

07-18-2002, 06:09 PM

OK, maybe my choice of words was bad/overreacted, but this was meant to be.
I didn't notice a very big difference in "cultivation" between etnic russians(of which you seem to have a pretty low esteem) and Russian Jews, but indeed some small cultural differences, comparable to the differences between an American of scottish decent or an American of latin decent for example.
You should be aware of anti-semitism, in the light of what happened in history and in the news, but still it's histeria to think that the majority of non-Jews are out there to get you. Especially in the US or France that's foolish. Other people are faced with racism and discrimination too, it's best not to overreact but ignore it or respond to it in a reasonable way, those people are stupid and you should have pity for them, as long as the government policy isn't racist, which isn't the case in the US nor in France.

i still think you're nationalist, because of the way you compare your country to other countries, without much criticism if at all.
"Maybe I'm nationalistic or proud that my family has been accepted here and has helped our country grow and prosper greater than the combined nations of EUrope"
yes, but culturally your country isn't even at the knees of Europe, which is just a fact. And by the way the Euro has, just some days ago, defeated the almighty $ ;)
your stereotypes of French are generalising, which seems to be a typical American feature. Maybe i ever said that all Americans are fat ignorant Homer Simpsons (=the European stereotype of an average American is like a mix of Homer Simpson and George Bush Junior...), but it was meant as a joke i didn't mean it.

"I personally have a stance on pacifism: it's great until you get your ass kicked. "

that's my stance on pacifism too!
BUT the problem is that Americans seem to have a different stance on self-defense: we see it as defending yourself when your nation gets attacked or occupied, qhich seems to be the universal conception of self-defense, while especially the US see it as the green light to attack anyone who stands in the way of American foreign policy goals. (iraq, Yougoslavia, Vietnam, etc.), while israel sees it as a green light to launch "pre-emptive strikes" against neighbouring countries and leave millions of people without any civilian rights in military occupied territories for decades. Where does self-defense ends and aggression begins??? Let's not forget that the most cruel dictator ever defended his policies by referring to self-defense...
I don't think that arming yourself is the right option, if not the black americans could arm themselves to protect themselves against police brutalities, jewish armed guards could start killing Arabs because they are "potential treats" (the word used by your president), etc. we know where this begins but not where this ends... oh yes we do, colombia, guatemala, israel, Wako, etc...

anyway, i'm off now to work and you won't see me the coming weeks hopefully, i hope you'll learn your self-defense courses but won't practise them in reality unnecessary!

Vic

07-18-2002, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by minusthejihad
It's also a shame that Puzzled (the one pretending to be a self-hating Jew) still hasn't explained to me why tons of Jews are leaving France for Israel.They are not. France is home to about 600,000 "official" Jews according to the WJC ( http://www.wjc.org.il/communities/jewish_communities_of_the_world/western_europe/france.html ), i.e. members of Jewish communities recognized by the said WJC. The number of potential candidates for the Aliyah is probably about twice as high. So far there were AFAIK several hundred French olim. There was no mention of them rescinding their French citizenships, which means that they kept the option of returning to France.

I believe that in the current situation both in France and in Israel a massive Aliyah, hyped up in the media too, is a bad option. It increases the impression of Jewish/Israeli vulnerability (since Israelis and Jews everywhere else are percieved as one and the same in certain quarters): a series of arson attacks and look how we got the Jews running away. It weakens the remaining communities, not just by reducing their numbers, but because it is usually the younger, healthier, richer and better-connected who go, and the weaker, less protected who stay behind - making this kind of exodus not exactly a humane act. There are better ways a French Jew can act now, for himself, his community and for Israel as well, here is an example: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185985&contrassID=2&subContrassID=8&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y .

What the French Jews now really need is IMO a good and responsible political leadership, capable of navigating difficult waters, and more fighting spirit.

In my experience, both American and Israeli reporters tend to over-dramatize, like in the article linked to earlier in this thread: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Paris3_When_It_Sizzles_With_Hate.asp . One can always find enough fearful people, especially among the (originally) European Jews, given the background of some of them, but this is not Germany in 1933. Often the reporters are simply ignorant of the obvious detail. I have seen an article from an Israeli newspaper about Germany "forcing Jews on their knees". The article did indeed carry a photo of elderly kneeling men, yet they happened to be a group of Evangelical priests, immediately recognizable by their cassocks, blocking a neonazi demonstration in Berlin!

Perhaps I should mention too that some people like to declare themselves Jews without being it, since they believe that this provides them with a better platform to communicate with "other Jews". Reasons can vary greatly: disgruntled neurotics, who think they have common enemies with Jews and thus a claim to their sympathy (my favorite was a Catholic appearing at a synagogue for the first time in his life, declaring himself a Jew because his priest wasn't nice to him in the confession; he was sure he would find more understandment in the said synagogue on the account of his own church treating him that poorly and Christianity being so great a plague to Judaism), antisemites who think that it provides them with better authority to tell Jews how they are supposed to think and act, and anything else you can imagine. The facelessness of an internet forum helps too. I don't accept such statements at face value, but rather take a look at what the person writes. At least with people who can express themselves well, one notices sooner or later whether the "Jewish" experience is genuine or not. Better not discuss it if it can be helped.

takeo

07-18-2002, 09:31 PM

that's right
However i still don't understand why someone should declare himself or herself Jewish if it isn't the case. Anti-semites who tell they are jews to make their opinion more damaging??? I've never seen or heard a fundamentalist or a nazi disguised as Jew!
but the contrary certainly exists, Jews who are openly anti-semite (Zirinovsky!!!) , the human mind is a treasure...
Anyway i don't attend much importance to being Jewish, it is a label for me, for other people it is much more important, but than again the Jewish community is as diverse as there are Jews. Most French Jews are only Jewish in name, and i think there are a lot more than the official figure, as well in the US by the way.
anyway i'm off now

cerulean

07-18-2002, 09:52 PM

Jul. 19, 2002
50 Jewish graves desecrated in Rome
By ARIEL DAVID

More than 50 graves in the Jewish sector of Rome's largest cemetery were vandalized Wednesday night by unknown assailants. ...
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1025787840565

Mediocrates

07-19-2002, 04:30 AM

BUT the problem is that Americans seem to have a different stance on self-defense: we see it as defending yourself when your nation gets attacked or occupied, qhich seems to be the universal conception of self-defense, while especially the US see it as the green light to attack anyone who stands in the way of American foreign policy goals. (iraq, Yougoslavia, Vietnam, etc.), while israel sees it as a green light to launch "pre-emptive strikes" against neighbouring countries and leave millions of people without any civilian rights in military occupied territories for decades. Where does self-defense ends and aggression begins??? Let's not forget that the most cruel dictator ever defended his policies by referring to self-defense..

You could substitute any noun in place of US and this statement would be true. It's self serving at its core to make say this. Everyone from Stalin to Saddam to Pol Pot to Pinochet to Hirohito to Hitler to Mugabe to Milosevic to Ho Chi Minh to Mao to James K. Polk has made this claim.

Mediocrates

07-19-2002, 04:38 AM

yes, but culturally your country isn't even at the knees of Europe, which is just a fact.

One man's old wrinkled whore is another's Grand Dame. The difference seems to be who's paying who.

And by the way the Euro has, just some days ago, defeated the almighty $

Which was their target all along. As you know currencies have nothing to do with economic vigor. They are a measure national debt to some extent.

The Euro was established to be pegged near US$1.11 but went down faster than a legless crack ho until just now. And AFAIK the Brits still only use the Euro to scrape gum off their shoes. You have pretty, colorful money though. Baby that's art.

Mediocrates

07-19-2002, 04:40 AM

I don't think that arming yourself is the right option, if not the black americans could arm themselves to protect themselves against police brutalities

There's that paint filled firehose again. What do you mean by 'could'?

minusthejihad

07-19-2002, 09:44 AM

Takeo,

Like I said, good luck with the Thesis, what's it on again?

I didn't notice a very big difference in "cultivation" between etnic russians(of which you seem to have a pretty low esteem) and Russian Jews, but indeed some small cultural differences, comparable to the differences between an American of scottish decent or an American of latin decent for example.

I'm sorry you saw it that way. I'd like to know how many you have met in both groups. I personally wouldn't sound so arrogant if my experiences were similar to yours, but they weren't. In the former USSR, my father had to consistently defend himself from the majority of Russians and was consistently disrespected even though he was in a higher managemnet position in his work. Hell, the Azerbaijanis treated Jews better than Russians in Baku and they were Muslims. Here in America, I hardly meet Russians and when I do, they are usually married to Jews or had defected. And I notice that occasionally, as you have as well, people associate Russian stereotypes with me, assuming that I love to drink Vodka (I do occasionally), and that I beat my girlfriend. In fact her mother, when she found out I was FROM USSR, was woried because she heard Russian beat their wife. Now I don't know how acceptible that is, but that is something that as a Jew I was taught was a terrible deed, as well as being an alcoholic. My father, like his father taught him, "You are a Jew, you must be stronger, smarter, faster, braver, better" than your Russian counterparts. And I think in a statistical analysis with ratios, I think we are. Call it arrogance, I call it pride.

You should be aware of anti-semitism, in the light of what happened in history and in the news, but still it's histeria to think that the majority of non-Jews are out there to get you.

I never said that the majority of non-Jews. I said over 35%, and I think it would be a safe bet to say more. There are over a billion Muslims in the world alone, and I think it would be safe to say that over 80% of them want my ass dead. Add all the previous haters, and over 35% is a safe bet. Its always better to be safe than sorry. SOrry for the cliche, but its true.

yes, but culturally your country isn't even at the knees of Europe, which is just a fact.

Pretty nationalistic on your part, wouldn't you say? And I think that statement is a very defensive reaction for most Europeans that care. I'll tell you why America is the best place in the world if you want, hardley perfect (I DO critisize the government everyday, but I'm not going to tag team our government with Europeans who don't live here, you police yours, we'll police ours. By the way, I have been moving from left to right in the last 2 years and I hope you can see why), but the best place in the world:

America's greatness is the result of immigrants leaving their oppresive or in cases socialistic (no gratification for working harder) countries to move somewhere where they could be free and do what they wanted without persecution. Yes, this was not always the case, but we sure tried. Just name another place on earth besides Canada (America's 51st state), where an imigrant of any origin can come here and become extremely financially successful, without having to ffeed all the losers around who don't want to work, which we do anyway. I know its hard to take for some socialists on this board, but if you think I'm going to get an education and work my ass of so some lazy garbageman next to me lives the same lifestyle, just for the benefit of all, I'm out. I'm no altruist in that regard. America: We've got the best from each culture, with such a diverse culture here, how can we be uncultured?

all Americans are fat ignorant Homer Simpsons (=the European stereotype of an average American is like a mix of Homer Simpson and George Bush Junior...),

I think its fair to say MOST, at least in middle America. Yes, but you could also argue that for most inhabitants in the world. I think a neglect of one's hygene, education, and health are common to all humans, we just like to parody it.

takeo

07-19-2002, 11:48 AM

"You could substitute any noun in place of US and this statement would be true. It's self serving at its core to make say this. Everyone from Stalin to Saddam to Pol Pot to Pinochet to Hirohito to Hitler to Mugabe to Milosevic to Ho Chi Minh to Mao to James K. Polk has made this claim."

many people abused the terminology "self-defense", but the US is doing it right away!

personally i like more the $, it's the mother of all cash, but the Euro has been doing good since 2002, and i don't think that the European economy is doing muich worse than the US. We have more differences, but countries as Denmark, Austria, Sweden, etc. certainly have a higher standard of living than the average in the US.

My thesis was about French colonisation in equatorial africa, an interesting subject, and the conclusions will nOT be inspired by patriotism.(if i ever write them)

I've visited family and friends in the ukrain and Russia, and most were decent people, but so were as well the Russians i visited, and some are still friends. Russians, Jews and non-Jews alike, seem decent people to me, very smart, interesting and non-conformist and a little crazy, which i adore, in fact more interesting people than western europeans or Americans in general to say the truth, they have less "little rules" and family-ties or friendships are much warmer and emotional than in the US (or even France). What i noticed is that Jews who recently moved from the Soviet-union to france are ALL OF THEM chess geniouses. Probably i only met the best ones, the Russians who came here recently seem to be the worst kind, hanging around with their cellular harrasing people and going to hookers, while the Russian jews who moved here in the last years are decent people who try to find a normal job...

i don't believe that 80 % of muslims want us dead! I've traveled to quite a few Muslim countries and that's just plain rubbish.

"Pretty nationalistic on your part, wouldn't you say? And I think that statement is a very defensive reaction for most Europeans that care. I'll tell you why America is the best place in the world if you want, hardley perfect (I DO critisize the government everyday, but I'm not going to tag team our government with Europeans who don't live here, you police yours, we'll police ours. By the way, I have been moving from left to right in the last 2 years and I hope you can see why), but the best place in the world: "

not really nationalism as Europe is not a nation...

"America's greatness is the result of immigrants leaving their oppresive or in cases socialistic (no gratification for working harder) countries to move somewhere where they could be free and do what they wanted without persecution. Yes, this was not always the case, but we sure tried. Just name another place on earth besides Canada (America's 51st state), where an imigrant of any origin can come here and become extremely financially successful, without having to ffeed all the losers around who don't want to work, which we do anyway. I know its hard to take for some socialists on this board, but if you think I'm going to get an education and work my ass of so some lazy garbageman next to me lives the same lifestyle, just for the benefit of all, I'm out. I'm no altruist in that regard. America: We've got the best from each culture, with such a diverse culture here, how can we be uncultured? "

well, i don't think that we here in france have such a bad economical situation, we pay more taxes, but if we become sick or loose our job at least we won't loose or house or have to pay all our savings just to be cured... i think security is a human right too, most people i know who have no job by the way are really searching one. Here everyone can go to university and try without havig to pay huge amounts of money, i think in the uS it's almost excluded for poor people. Life is just easier here for the less wealthy, it's less a struggle, and the distinction between poor and rich people is much smaller, everyone has an equal start from the beginning, wether they are born in a poor or rich family, which isn't the case in the US.
The US is great for the people who get lucky, have good skills for the better-paid jobs, find a great job, a wealthy family, have a good car (because public transport sucks) and never have bad luck, bad health or other problems.
The US is a better country to become millionaire, but why should someone become a millionaire?
When i went to Russia last time all people i met told me they would sign to have the old system of social security back any moment...

"I think its fair to say MOST, at least in middle America. Yes, but you could also argue that for most inhabitants in the world. I think a neglect of one's hygene, education, and health are common to all humans, we just like to parody it."

maybe so, but i noticed more fat and ignorant Americans than fat or ignorant French or Russians... (French have other bad caracteristics, for example having a high self-esteem and talking a lot of ********)

y ahora me voy see ya

cerulean

07-19-2002, 11:49 AM

Europeans are from Venus
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/432

Quote:
As the German lion lay down with the French lamb, Europeans widely congratulated themselves on a world-historical breakthrough and concluded that their future global mission is to develop a "postmodern system" that resolves problems without even the hint of force. (Along the way, they conveniently forgot that this transformation was only made possible because U.S. forces defeated Germany.) They aspire, Kagan argues, to replicate their success on a global scale, by taming a North Korea or an Iraq as they did Germany.

====
The article has a good summary of the US/European relationship. The article states that Europe will become increasingly irrelevant, and the US should look for other relationships.

takeo

07-19-2002, 11:58 AM

Daniel Pipes :rolleyes:

cerulean

07-19-2002, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by takeo
Daniel Pipes :rolleyes:

If you weren't supposed to be busy on your thesis, I would ask you to explain. But -- get back to work!! :)

takeo

07-19-2002, 12:08 PM

thanks for saving me, it's more interesting here and only a click away on the computer (disadvantage of modern technology!) but you won't give me some kind of graduation i suppose ;)
i'll explain you later, that's promised

minusthejihad

07-19-2002, 12:13 PM

not really nationalism as Europe is not a nation...

You know what I meant.

Probably i only met the best ones, the Russians who came here recently seem to be the worst kind, hanging around with their cellular harrasing people and going to hookers, while the Russian jews who moved here in the last years are decent people who try to find a normal job...

Exactly my point. The Russians who just came there were able to do so after the government collapsed and restirictions on emigrating were lifted. Previously only Russian Jews were allowed to leave. Why? Because they didn't want us there in the first place. Sad, considering we were some of the best doctors, engineers, professors, etc. Then they wondered why the country collapsed. HE he.

And French Hookers, ewwwww! Gross.

maybe so, but i noticed more fat and ignorant Americans than fat or ignorant French or Russians...

You have seriously got to be OUT of YOUR MIND! Especially with the Russians. You know that in America, when you pass someone in the street, they smile back at you. In Old USSR, if you even smile at someone, they think you are a lunatic. That's because living there SUCKS. My relatives there can testify to that. The governement, mafia, and your next door neighbor are all corrupt and everyone only worries about themselves. There's a complete lack of compassion and respect, life is survival of the fittest, and the social programs breed neglect and unenthusiasm for one's work. The medical system sucks, and although you can get a free doctor, they're probably drunk or negligent. You can not possible compare the Russian society to America and think they are more informed and thinner. That is a complete oxymoron.

Mediocrates

07-19-2002, 12:32 PM

Oh leave him to his delusions. He probably thinks we all own velvet paintings of Elvis and hang them up in the doublewide too. Probably thinks Jerry Springer is a documentary.

Mediocrates

07-19-2002, 12:38 PM

not really nationalism as Europe is not a nation...

You are right. It's a brand.

takeo

07-19-2002, 01:58 PM

Are French hookers worse than their American collegues???

Well, you might be right about Russia, still, people smiling in the US is much like HYPOCRISY to me... in restaurants they'll small as long as your credit card is OK...
Russians are only nice to you when they like you and consider you as their friends, if not they won't bother. Actually i like that approach.

"There's a complete lack of compassion and respect, life is survival of the fittest"

is this really so different from the US?
still, i had a different idea about Russia, but of course i never lived there. it seems that Russians do care less about their neighbours or their appearance, but more about their friends and family. France is somewhere in between, like a bridge between those two extremes.

You are right about the corruption and neglect unfortunately, but it hasn't improved the last years, on the contrary.
Still i'm still convinced that Russians know more about the world than the average American. how many average Americans have read Tolstoy or Flaubert, while i still have to meet the first Russian (or Russian Jew) who haven't read one of them

cerulean

07-19-2002, 02:16 PM

Here I am dealing in generalizations again, and I hate to generalize. Nevertheless ... Americans as a whole are generous and friendly people. The government social welfare system is not comparable to that in Europe, but American people are charitable as individuals. There is a strong rural and small-town tradition of helping your neighbors. When an American is friendly to a stranger, I think he or she usually means it.

how many average Americans have read Tolstoy or Flaubert, while i still have to meet the first Russian (or Russian Jew) who haven't read one of them

Not to mention how lousy the average American is at chess :) This is clearly a case of divergent interests. Maybe Americans would be collectively improved if they all sat down and read Tolstoy, and it's true there are some anti-intellectual tendencies. But remember America has a bias towards action, rather than deep thought. As always, there needs to be a balance.

minusthejihad

07-19-2002, 02:28 PM

Takeo,

Hold on a sec, you think that Americans care more about their neighbor and appearance than they do for their family and friends?

What? Again, you have got to be kidding me. Seriously, next to "I'm convinced Russians know more about the world than Americans", that has got to be one of the most retarded things I have ever heard. How could they possible know more, if most of their lives they weren't allowed to read books that were banned by the government? All of the sudden, in ten years, most Russians have caught up with Americans in reading whatever they want? The government institutionalized ignorance on purpose Takeo. They couldn't of possibly know more about the world. It's impossible. They still think AMerican's hang Blacks here and that Jordashe is still fashionable. Please!

And about reading Tolstoy and Flaubert, Tolstoy is practically required reading in all American high schools. Where did you visit when you were here, Backcountry Kentucky?

Vic

07-19-2002, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
not really nationalism as Europe is not a nation...

You are right. It's a brand. How did you guess?

EU accused of pooling money for propaganda purpose
http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=17&aid=6739

--------------------------------
Originally posted by takeo
(French have other bad caracteristics, for example having a high self-esteem and talking a lot of ********)1:0 for Europe for self-criticism :D

*wishes all of you would change the topic*

takeo

07-19-2002, 04:03 PM

basically New York city and Oklahoma...
i agree that those two are very different(as different as Pitir and Ufa), and in fact comparisons or generalisations are not easy to make, still Americans do care LESS about their family and friends and MORE about their neighbourhoods compared to russians, i think it's safe to say this, in general. Russian family- and friendship ties are in general so strong that it isn't even healthy, being together almost all day without much space for privacy.
about Americans being sincere friendly, i believe in some cases that's certainly true, sorry for the generalisation, but what i mean is the empoyees are always fake smiling in the US, which i hate, because its commercial. It is less in France and even less so in russia (you could even have the impression that they are rude). (what i also noticed is that Americans always smile when a picture is taken, without any particular reason for smiling, i agree it's nicer but a little weird)
yep, i agree cerulean, but intellectual is maybe not the right word... (it reminds me too much of the selfish university-community in France, but probably in the uS as well, who think they are the "crème de la crème" of the world...)
I don't think that an average American can or would quote Tolstoy or Pushkin by hard as most Russians can and regularly do, not to show their intellectual capacity but to express a certain feeling, they are truly poetic people, i was deeply touched by this... (even not American writers, nor can the French)
what i notice is that Russians, in general, are more philosophical in their day-to-day-life, and are more interested in what happens outside their life than the average American ( i know there are a lot of exceptions) who have access to more information but don't have the same interest.

Vic

07-19-2002, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by takeo
I don't think that an average American can or would quote Tolstoy or Pushkin by hard as most Russians can and regularly do, not to show their intellectual capacity but to express a certain feeling, they are truly poetic people, i was deeply touched by this... (even not American writers, nor can the French)I remember a murderer from Russia (he massacred a whole brothel in Frankfurt) who stunned a German forensic psychiatrist examining him with Dostoyevsky quotes...

takeo

07-19-2002, 04:20 PM

i'm sure he was deeply touched too...

elke

07-19-2002, 04:38 PM

Takeo, the reason Russians tend to live with their families is because there is a shortage of living space, and always was! It's true - ask your parents! :D

People shared apartments with strangers as well. This is called "communalka", and is a very, very ugly beast. Until I was 6 years old, we lived in one room of a three room apartment, where the other two rooms were occupied by another family. We shared the hallway, kitchen, and the bathroom with them, and my father terrorized our neighbors by walking around in his boxer shorts. ;)

cerulean

07-19-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Vic
EU accused of pooling money for propaganda purpose
http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=17&aid=6739

The article mentions that the EU is seeking to promote an "integrationist" view of Europe and using a lot of money to do this. Clearly such a move benefits EU bureaucrats. Who else benefits from having a single monotone voice coming from Europe?

minusthejihad

07-19-2002, 04:53 PM

I don't think that an average American can or would quote Tolstoy or Pushkin by hard as most Russians can and regularly do, not to show their intellectual capacity but to express a certain feeling, they are truly poetic people, i was deeply touched by this... (even not American writers, nor can the French)

Why should they, Americans have their own great writers and poets to quote from. Of course Russian literature is immaculatly written, but who decided that Tolstoy is the greatest writer of all time? You mean I can't quote from Hunter S. Thompson to express a certain kind of feeling? That would make me less literate, intellectual? What? Hey, give me five minutes and I can memorize the back of a cereal box, does that make me a genius?

So I'll leave you with a few choice quotes from Frank Zappa, American:

"Some Scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is
so plentiful, is the basic building block of the
universe. I dispute that. I say there is more
stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic
building block of the universe."

"Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short, cloth neck
ornament, currently in resurgence."

"Stupidity has a certain charm --
ignorance does not."

"In every language, the first word after "Mama!" that every kid learns to say is "Mine!" A system that doesn't allow ownership, that doesn't allow you to say "Mine!" when you grow up, has -- to put it mildly -- a fatal design flaw."

"There is no hell. There is only France."

"You've got to be digging it while it's happening
'cause it just might be a one shot deal."

Good night, and good weekend to all!

elke

07-19-2002, 05:11 PM

Takeo, try reading some Steinbeck - one of the very best books ever written, IMO, is "The Grapes of Wrath".

Try Edith Wharton, if you like the "high society"-type of thing. You might find her writings interesting, because they give a good historical background of how such people lived in New York in the beginning of 20th century.

Oh, and can't forget Nathaniel Hawthorne - "House of Seven Gables" is a masterpiece: it's slow moving, so requires some patience, but by the middle of the book you are hooked!

Hemingway "For Whom the Bell Tolls" - another book by an American author, deserving of "Elke's World Literature Hall of Fame" designation, as one of the best books ever written (that I have read, so far anyway ;))

takeo

07-19-2002, 05:16 PM

I didn't say American writers are worse than Russian ones...

Well, you've made your point still Americans usually won't quote Hemingway or Thompson... (or Zappa ;) )
it doesn't make them less intellectual, but you can't deny that Americans have a more rational, materialistic less emotional way of approaching life? anyway it's a certain feeling that i had that i can't describe very well, Russians, including the Russian Jews, are in general more emotional, nostalgic, unpredictable, "tormented" etc. than westerners.
you're right Elke, this kind of living still exist, but even people i met who live in their own appartment, are constantly together, including with their friends who stay untill 4 o clock in the morning drinking, it doesn't seem to bother them that they have to work the next day...
did you live all of your life in the Soviet-Union in such a way? sharing the same bed too?
i heard it is especially in Moscow and Sanktpitirburg, because everyone want to live there.

elke

07-19-2002, 06:59 PM

Americans do too quote Zappa ;)

I agree though that there is a qualitative difference in the way Americans approach life vs. Europeans. Sweeping statement, of course, it is to be taken guardedly. Many well-educated Americans will quote along with the best Europeans, from all sorts of literature though.

No, when I was about 6 we moved to a 3-bedroom apartment, all by our lonesome. My sister doesn't even remember the "communalka". The living space shortage problem is more pronounced in Moscow and St. Petersburg, but it also exists in Odessa and Kiev, as well as other cities, AFAIK.

takeo

07-19-2002, 08:23 PM

OK, thanks for the literature recommendations Elke, i'll put them on my "must read" list

"I agree though that there is a qualitative difference in the way Americans approach life vs. Europeans"

I agree, but "Europeans" is too broad for any generalisations, Russians, French, Turks and Norwegians have very little in common in their approach towards life...

cerulean

07-19-2002, 10:35 PM

Murderous lunacy or blatant anti-Semitism?
Unlike the police and other authorities involved, Jews in Canada have no doubt regarding the motive in the case of David Rosenzweig, who was murdered this week by a young skinhead with a criminal record

By Nathan Guttman
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=188392&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=188392
...
====
I suppose "hate crime" is all a matter of definition, and it looks like the term has been defined out of existence in this case.

cerulean

07-21-2002, 05:30 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/22/international/americas/22ARGE.html
Iran Blew Up Jewish Center in Argentina, Defector Says
By LARRY ROHTER

BUENOS AIRES, July 21 — The Iranian government organized and carried out the bombing of a Jewish community center here eight years ago that killed 85 people and then paid Argentina's president at the time, Carlos Saúl Menem, $10 million to cover it up, a witness in the case has said in sealed testimony. ...
===

This one more of the many acts of terrorism Iran has perpetrated around the world, including in Israel.

minusthejihad

07-22-2002, 10:58 AM

Takeo
Latest Post:
I agree, but "Europeans" is too broad for any generalisations, Russians, French, Turks and Norwegians have very little in common in their approach towards life...

Previous Post:
it doesn't make them less intellectual, but you can't deny that Americans have a more rational, materialistic less emotional way of approaching life?

Takeo,

I find it quite hypocritical and arrogant to on one hand chide someone for generalizing Europeans and simultaneously generalizing all Americans.

It seems you must have met some yuppies that left a bad taste in your mouth, but if you really think that East Coast Americans have the same views on life as Southerners, West Coasters, Midwesterners, Alaskans, Southwesterners, etc., than you need to come visist us again. I laugh when I try to compare the views on life shared by a redneck, an old money Bostoner, a Black man from Detroit's Inner City, a Southern Bell, a Texas Cattle Rancher, a Vietnamese Immigrant Roach Coach Driver, a Skateboarding California Loser, a Retired Jew living in Boka Raton, a Mexican migrant worker, or a lesbian living in Des Moine. Boy, I'm sure these people all can be clumped together as Americans with a more rational, materialistic less emotional way of approaching life.

Again, the above melting pot or salad bowl of cultural flavors is exactly what makes America so wonderful. While you are busy with your reading list, add Salinger, Rand, Miller, etc.

Mediocrates

07-22-2002, 12:15 PM

Ok that's it.

I have been there and trust me, or better yet look around for yourself and sniff it for yourself(ves).

(some) of you culturally superior folks act like you never bought anything in Fr. w/ a barcode on it. I have. If anything you are more like us than we are like you.

Been there done that, ate the duck with the head still on it and kicked the chef's dog sleeping under my table at the bistro.

I watched American movies in English, French movies in French (and some English) with English subtitles, drove a German car and ate MickyD. I saw the obligatory 15th C. Chateau turned into a veterinary school. I saw castles that were reassembled to look old.

I shopped at Marche, Le Clerc, road the trains, drove some cows off my sister in law's farm when the idiot driving them forgot what he was doing.

Got crushed in mad pack of drunken Polish soccer players at the base of the Tour Eiffel. Waited on line for just about anything and everything from food to maps to smokes to gas.

Your airports lose luggage just like everyone else.

Renting a car took more time than my wedding - just like everywhere else.

Got stuck behind an 8 fatality accident on the way to DeGaulle - after the "Big Wind" 1999-2000.

Got no response from the water authority to turn off a main that was broken until we lied and told them it was a working farm. Then a half dozen guys showed up stood around and smoked talking about the one guy down in the hole doing the work.

Got into an argument with the dosents at a Planitarium who sold us tickets and then insisted that the children sit on our laps.

I found the top end red line for an Audi A4 driving on the A24 (235Kph w/ 5 people in the car).

A motorcycle blew past me like I was Amish on one of those 3 lane 2-way highways.

And Dieppe is a ****hole - yeah it is. Get over it.

My god you don't how much you are what you hate.