Some thoughts on the Leftist Movement

[NewsGuy]

When commenting on the Israeli Left, a good place to start is by keeping in mind that the movement does not necessarily espouse a Leftist social agenda in the same sense of Leftists parties in the rest of the world. Rather, the Israeli Leftists are those who hold specific opinions with respect the amount of concessions Israel should make to the Arabs in exchange for peace.

Although the Rightist Israelis and the Leftist Israelis both support the concept of making peace with the Arabs, they differ on the amount of land and national freedom that Israel should grant the Palestinians. In a nutshell, many Leftists believe that Israel should withdraw from Judea, Samaria and Gaza, while the Rightists are willing to basically withdraw completely partially from Gaza and only partially from Judea and Samaria, a.k.a the West Bank.

For those of you may not know, the current Prime Minister of Israel is a centrist Rightist and the Israeli Foreign Minister and Defense Minister are both centrist Leftists.

This weekend there took place a large demonstration of the Israeli Leftists. The Israeli police estimate that 60,000 Israelis took place in a rally in support of peace and urged Israel to withdraw its troops from the West Bank and Gaza. They oppose PM Sharon, and the more extreme Leftists want Israel to dismantle ALL Israeli border towns, aka, settlements.

Here are some points to kick off our discussion of the Israeli Leftist movement. As many of you may know, I share the perspective of the Centrist-Right camp:

1. The Left is has a considerable voice in Israeli politics. Approximately 30% of Israelis consider themselves to be Leftists.

2. The majority of Leftists do not support the outlaw military "refusenik" sabateurs. Only the radical Left supports them.

3. The Leftists are, IMO good people. Too good, in fact, because they believe that ultimately the Arabs are interested in a civilized and peaceful co-existence. That is overly optimistic in this generation. Maybe the next. Who knows.

4. If the Leftists think that the Palestinian will make for good neighbors, why not leave the settlements in place and give the settlers the option of living under Palestinian rule? Well, basically, the Leftists know they would have a tough time explaining the genocide and ethnic cleansing that the Palestinian would perform immediately, even though Arabs receive protection and full democratic rights in Israel.

5. The Leftists forgot that the IDF has pulled its tanks and troops out of the Palestinian-controlled areas for nearly 3 years following Oslo. During that time, Palestinian terrorism continued.

Your thoughts on the Israeli Left-Right controversy.

[alexbmn]

in my opinion they are the most deluded poeple on earth.Who do they want to make peace with? The people who are willing to blow them up ?

[L@mplighterM]

There?s nothing wrong with wanting peace. Unfortunately peace can only be achieved through strength. I believe that the demonstrators feel that they have the best interest of Israel in mind when they demonstrate for peace.

History isn?t on their side they are surrounded by Islam and Islam is just biding its time waiting for the moment to destroy Israel. Life can be compared in part to a poker game sometimes you?re lucky and at other times unlucky.

In 1967 Israel was lucky since then a number of errors were made (in my opinion and hindsight is everything) in dealing with the Palestinians.

Many Palestinians will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel. In the future it will get worse without question. If the Palestinians had had weapons equal to or surpassing those of Israel in the latest conflict it would have been disastrous for Israel and the IDF. Will they have more powerful weapons in the future? I believe they will based on history because it?s a trend in the world to develop weaponry with more killing power.

I think ibrodsky had the best suggestion on this forum in one of his posts (I wont go into it here).

You might think there?s peace with Egypt but there?s continuous border conflicts with Israelis and Egyptians shooting at each other. In fact it could be considered as a continuous state of war. In short enemies surround Israel.

Peaceniks are needed but so are hardliners and I belong to the latter.

[alexbmn]

its really funny.There's amonth when the death toll is far lower then usual (because of the military operation of course) and the leftists come crawling out from their holes. I wonder who they will choose to be their peace partner Hamas or isalmic Jihad? Honestly I think they should go with Arafat's Al Aqsa Brigades because they are seen as more moderate and more progressive.After all they have no qualms about letting women be suicide bombers.

[alexbmn]

I just finished reading an article in Jpost about the rally.These people represent a minority of a minority in Israel. Sixty percent of those associated with the Meretz party supported defensive shield.And yet the ones present at this rally were displeased when a Labor speaker spoke about it in an favorable light.

[L@mplighterM]

If Israel didn’t possess nuclear weapons their end would have come a long time ago. Strength is respected and that is Israel’s ace in the hole. Unfortunately nuclear weapons can’t be deployed in the West Bank or Gaza Strip because of the close proximity to Israel.

The trouble is that it’s easier to destroy a small country versus a bigger one.

Lets not forget that Sadam and Arafag are like two peas in a pod. Lets not forget that Iraq indiscriminately launched missiles into Israel. Lets not forget that the Palestinians were discovered with the ingredients for manufacturing chemical weapons. Arafat is evil! Iraq’s leader is evil! There are also the Syrians and the Iranians.

All these things have to be considered when attempting to forge a peace agreement between Israel and Palestinians.

If left unattended Iran will certainly develop nuclear capability within a few years. Iraq has already attempted to develop nuclear weapons and was stopped cold in their tracks in 1981 by Israel. Recent satellite surveillance indicates that Iraq has developed long-range missiles. Several years ago they had purchased components to develop a long-range cannon. The Mossad put an end to that project.

Everything that we do today affects the future and any settlement should consider the fact that that Islam may want to rewrite 1967. Different players same game! The game is death to Jews as commanded by Allah.

If states like Iraq and Iran is left unchecked I’m afraid that it’ll be a reality.

I’m usually an optimist but in this scenario I’m a pessimist.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
You might think there?s peace with Egypt but there?s continuous border conflicts with Israelis and Egyptians shooting at each other. In fact it could be considered as a continuous state of war. In short enemies surround Israel.

Where did you get that from?
Egypt and Israel are in a continuous state of war? total BS. Egyptians and Israelis are not shooting at each other. They hve not done so for the last 22 years. I visited Sinai 3 times in 1998 and 1999 and found the people warm and welcoming.

The same goes for Jordan (also visited there 1998).

I believe after Isaeli withdraw from Lebanon that in spite of Hizbullah provocations, the border will increasingly become stable as the Lebanese army take position along the Israeli border.

[McSceptic]

I don't know much about Israeli internal politics, but I'm interested in how the terms left and right are used - does it relate purely to their position on peace?

It seems the right in Israel is as economically protectionist as the left, or more so. In Europe it is the right which is usually economically liberal (I guess the left-wing in the states isn't as developed :) )

As to L@mplighter's comments about the size of Israel, even with the West Bank annexed, aouldn't the country still be about the size of Hong Kong? I.e. very small.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by McSceptic
It seems the right in Israel is as economically protectionist as the left, or more so. In Europe it is the right which is usually economically liberal (I guess the left-wing in the states isn't as developed :) )

economically liberal? So why Britain has a conservative and labour parties?

Israel inherited the political and judicial systems from the British. We have a labour party that is socialist in orientation and Likud party that is more capitalist in orientation.

Originally posted by McSceptic
As to L@mplighter's comments about the size of Israel, even with the West Bank annexed, aouldn't the country still be about the size of Hong Kong? I.e. very small.

Hong Kong is a city state. Israel is not THAT small. Israel (w/o occupied territories) is about 20,000 Sq Km. which like the state of New Jersey. It is 20 times the size of hong Kong. The occupied territories are about 6,000 sq Km.

[Mediocrates]

Iyyar 28, 5762
(May 10, 2002)
Yom Yerushalayim

What Is the Left Cooking Up for Us This Time?

I have a bad gut feeling that the left is once again cooking up
for us some rotten dish. In recent weeks, the weeks in which we fought in Operation Defensive Shield, we saw the wonderful side of the people of Israel: patriotism ran high, and still runs high - the decisive majority of the people supported the military operation in the cities of Judea and Samaria, and awaits "Operation Defensive Shield 2"; the reservists reported for duty at a rate of 100 percent; sympathy for the nationalcamp as a whole, and especially for the public in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, reached unprecedented heights.

This national-Zionist mood is the nightmare of the extremist left
in the country. They are panicking. They are in such a plight that they have no chance of convincing the Israeli public of the seeming need to evacuate settlements. The question that arises is, therefore, what is the left cooking up for us this time, to try and stop this elevated spirit among the public? What trap are they setting for us, in order to sabotage the unity that
reigns among the people? What is being planned for us by the extreme left, that holds all the key positions in the axis of evil: the media, the police, the General Security Services, and the State Attorney's Office?

In order to answer these questions, we must recall that this
period of the nation coming to its senses and the left hitting bottom is very similar to the time of the terrorist attacks in 1995. Every time that a suicide terrorist exploded himself in an Egged or Dan bus, the dream of "peace" exploded in the faces of the architects of Oslo, and the prestige of the left dropped and faded in the eyes of the public. Then, too, there was the beginning of a national sobering up that was expressed, among other ways, in affinity for the Jews of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

Until the appearance of the episode of the GSS agent Avishai
Reviv, an episode that reached a climax with the Rabin assassination.

I have no doubts that the Rabin assassination was not meant to
be a murder, but a failed assassination attempt on the life of the late Yitzhak Rabin, in order to delegitimize the national camp, and restore sympathy for the left. Something went wrong, and other elements in the left apparently preferred Yitzhak Rabin to be really murdered. This is not the place to once again stir up the affair of the murder and the dozens of questions that were raised after the investigation. The people still awaits a new Commission of Inquiry that will examine the matter objectively and attempt to answer all the puzzling questions.

My goal in raising this subject is to indicate a recurring
phenomenon:
* a situation of public sympathy for the national camp as a whole, and especially for the Jews of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza;
* a nadir for the left;
* panic in the left that causes them to invent a dirty maneuver for
besmirching the national camp - hoping that the public will be deceived by the false stories, thus enabling the left to once again become the darling of the public.

Other false GSS fabrications include:
(1) the episode of Oren Edri, who was accused of heading a "new underground," and then it became clear after some time that everything was a lie;
(2) the announcement, several years ago, that Judea, Samaria, and Gaza Jews had murdered Arabs from Halhul, when it was later discovered that these Arabs had been killed by other Arabs, on the background of a clash between rival clans. This story led to a vigorous smear campaign directed especially against the Jews of Hebron. No governmental body apologized for the "mistake."

The delegitimation and besmirchment campaign after the Rabin
assassination was very successful. The leaders of the national-religious public fell into the trap that the left had set for them. Instead of condemning the attempt by the left to lay the blame for the Rabin assassination on the entire national camp, and to declare that, just as we did not kill Jesus, so, too, we had no part in the murder of Rabin, the naive leaders of the national camp set out on a degrading campaign of "heshbon nefesh [spiritual stocktaking]." This was a tragic mistake that only strengthened the spurious claims by the left of the guilt of the entire
national camp in the assassination. It is to be hoped that this error will not be repeated.

Just as I write this, the leaders of the national camp will be faced
with another test. Two weeks ago, three men from Bat Ayin, all married, with families, were arrested. There is a heavy smoke screen covering the entire affair. The public knows only that these Jews will apparently be charged with an attempt to attack Arabs.

But it can't be helped - my gut feeling tells me that there's
something stinking here. I don't know the families. I don't know the details of the affair. But I know what we all know, and these details suffice to light a warning light for us all: as of the time these lines were written, these Jews have been denied legal representation. Additionally, there is a reasonable suspicion that they have been tortured. One of the most common tortures is sleep deprivation. Someone who has been deprived of sleep for days temporarily looses his sanity and is willing, in order to get some sleep, to confess to anything, even to things that he
never committed. This constitutes a severe violation of the elementary rights of every prisoner, that should outrage us all. Even the murderer Barghouti (if any comparison can be made) met his lawyer after two days.

The national camp, and its leaders, cannot continue being
naive. The past teaches us that there are leftist elements in the GSS and in the State Attorney's Office who take advantage of the legal system to relentlessly, cruelly, and wickedly persecute all those whom they put in their sights - first and foremost, naturally, the inhabitants of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

We must remember that every person is innocent until proven
otherwise. In the case of those from Bat Ayin under arrest, there is room to suspect that the investigative activities are of a political nature, with the goal of imposing political terror.

Therefore, we must all join the call by the rabbis who issued a
flyer that states:
"Judge your neighbor fairly" [Leviticus 19:15]. A number of
young men are under arrest by the GSS for about a week, and
they apparently are to be charged with committing attacks
against Arabs. Those under arrest are being held in solitary
confinement, and they are prevented from meeting a lawyer,
but we were told by an authoritative source that, judging by
their appearance, it is feared that they were beaten and
tortured. To our sorrow, we have experience from previous
instances (such as: the episode of Lieutenant Oren Edri, the
"children's underground," and more) in which libels were
raised against such prisoners, and were later proven to be
unsubstantial.

We therefore hereby call upon the public - and
certainly its leaders and spokesmen - to refrain from any
speech that constitutes the casting of aspersions, direct or
indirect censure, or any passing of judgment without trial.
(Signed) Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, Rabbi
Shlomo Ben-Hammo, Rabbi Hayim Druckman, Rabbi
Zephaniah Drori, Rabbi David Hai Hakohen, Rabbi Eliakim
Levanon, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Zalman Melamed, Rabbi
Gideon Perl, Rabbi Daniel Shilo.

Let us hope that the fact that the public is alert to the possibility
that the episode of those arrested from Bat Ayin is an additional attempt to delegitimize and besmirch the Jews of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, will lead, with God's help, to this affair speedily ending, in nothing.

Nadia Matar,
Co-Chairperson, Women in Green




WOMEN FOR ISRAEL'S TOMORROW (WOMEN IN GREEN)
P.O.B. 7352, JERUSALEM
91072 Israel
Tel. 02-624-9887
Fax: 02-624-5380
http://www.womeningreen.org
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[sharonbn]

I can only qoute NewsGuy, responding to elena on a different thread:

"I think that something you will learn very quickly is that when you copy-and-paste an opinion piece like the one above, then there is always another opinion piece that supports the opposing point of view. "
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=7105#post7105

and again

"Another tedious copy-and-paste job devoid of any independent thinking from elena... "
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=7148#post7148

I believe the same can be said to Mediocrates...

[Mediocrates]

.....so sorry I'll ammend my ways...

so anyway, whatcha think?

Americans and Europeans generally I think fall into a trap when trying to compartmentalize Israeli poltics. Clearly Sharon, the sabra is a hard core socialist who would make the Progressive left in the US proud. Yet because of his zionist fervor he is branded a screaming right wingnut. When in reality there is no disconnect between the two. The new left in the US and in Israel is a new animal altogether which has abanoned an awful large collection of principals for the sake of an unnamed abstract unverifiable wish called 'peace'. OK that's a nice goal but doesn't it seem like the flip side of General William Westmoreland's unilateral declaration of victory in Viet Nam?

"We declare peace, everybody can go home now."

[Mediocrates]

W.I.G. and Gamla take some positions that are fairly far to the right for sure. But so? W.I.G is intimately involved in the Jewish settlement in the middle of Hebron, would you expect something different.

All in all though the left in Israel and in the US have noble goals, misguided as their approach is. None the less, as civil rights and non violence goes, is it ironic that the strongest expression of that comes from a place most threatened by it? Where is the Palestinian civil rights movement???

Every day I cross through a 'peace' website of one kind or another and almost w/o exception they are Pro PLI/PLFP sites wrapping themselves in the purported excesses of others while offering little if anything at all in the way of something concrete for actual progress. How did the left get so coopted? Oh well, for some I suppose, living on your knees is better than dying on your feet.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
"We declare peace, everybody can go home now."
That's a great quote!

:)

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by sharonbn


Where did you get that from?
Egypt and Israel are in a continuous state of war? total BS. Egyptians and Israelis are not shooting at each other. They hve not done so for the last 22 years. I visited Sinai 3 times in 1998 and 1999 and found the people warm and welcoming.

The same goes for Jordan (also visited there 1998).

I believe after Isaeli withdraw from Lebanon that in spite of Hizbullah provocations, the border will increasingly become stable as the Lebanese army take position along the Israeli border.

There was an article in jpost.com last week regarding the border tensions. It clearly stated that gunfire is exchanged from time to time. I think a soldier a Egyptian soldier was wounded by the border police.

Nothing major still incidents should not occur. I call that a continous state of war.

[Vic]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


There was an article in jpost.com last week regarding the border tensions. It clearly stated that gunfire is exchanged from time to time. I think a soldier a Egyptian soldier was wounded by the border police.

Nothing major still incidents should not occur. I call that a continous state of war.
Could this be just the work of a bunch of provocators? I understand the Egyptian government, itself of course far from perfect, has a hard time trying to control extermist groups. For a comparison: Germany and Poland are not at war, even though their respective inhabitants reportedly do beat up the other ones from time to time. And neither for that matter are Greece and Turkey.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
There was an article in jpost.com last week regarding the border tensions. It clearly stated that gunfire is exchanged from time to time. I think a soldier a Egyptian soldier was wounded by the border police.

Nothing major still incidents should not occur. I call that a continous state of war.

I can put it very simply - not true.

Since the signing of the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel in 1979 there was not even ONE incident of exchange of fire between Egyptian and Israeli soldiers. The border is 100% quiet and was like that during the first Intifadah, the war in Lebanon and the second Intifadah.
There was only one incident in 1984 of an Egyptian soldier who went berserk and shot 12 Israeli civillians on vacation in Sinai.

Maybe you are mistaken for gunfire incidents between Israelis and Palestinians that occur on the southern border of the gaza strip, near the Israeli-Egyptian border.

instead of reading garbage on jpost, try reading serious newspaper: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/

[ibrodsky]

I find Ha'aretz (Internet edition) to be highly unreliable. They seem to follow the formula "be first to report it even if it turns out to be false."

[Mike Kilo (4X)]

it is expected that living these days in Israel the main thing on everyones agenda, let alone the political parties, is indeed how to resolve the Palestinian problem or the Palestinian question. while some people still cling to the notion that there will not be a palestinian state most people and leaders realize that there will indeed be a palestinian state in the end, and the argument amongst those is on what land this state will be.

I don't like the term border towns, although they imply the need for a border - which is indeed what the solution of the grand issue requires, but it causes an error in understanding where the settlments are located - beyond the initial borders of the jewish state, established according to UN resolution...

While indeed the classic left wind and right wing definitions (as we we recall them from the times of the french revolution) do not quite apply to the definition of all left wing parties in Israel, whose Ideologies vary from communism (Hadash etc...) through socialism to liberalism, when we look at the right wing of the political map in Israel we see parties that go from 'Nationalist' movements fascism - which do correspond to the definition of right as we know it from modern day europe.

indeed it is true that the two main parties in Israel (the "Likud" from the right and the Avoda from the left) do not quite have an ideological agenda... both are much more concerned with their political survival and chasing power. further more, the actuall ideological agenda of both is unknown. depending on the day of the week you can hear either leader of the two main parties justifying what supposedly is the other party's agenda and vise versa...

the Israeli political map is such that makes you doubt the people who want to become prime minister.

the Israeli prime minister these days, politically speaking, the weakest man in the government. winning the elections is not a blessing for the ideology of a party but rather it is the instance were the ideology rests and the bribes begin. the attempt to make the widest (therefore more stable) govt possible creates an impossibly complex force arrangement. the results is a feable government that cannot do much more than give away Minister posts.

indeed there too many ministers within the government. the current government is a strange marriage in which representatives of different Ideologies can magically find their place, even anti-democratic or non democratic parties such as shas, or the (in my oppinion fascist) National Union (haIchud ha-Leumi) together with the likud and the avoda (which themselves have always been political rivals)... and many more Ideological contradictions. This awkward marriage forces the Ideologies of each member to quiet down - in favor of the survivability of the government... but what's the point of being in power if you cannot apply your agenda?

there's no opposition in this democracy... Yossi Sarid may be a good Critic of the government, but he alone is not an opposition. in order for any democracy to funcion there should be a substaintial opposition - or at least a real alternative to the government. Having established that the main parties do not represent any ideology (at least not at the moment), I ask what real alternatives does the voter have?

Since this discussion focuses on the leftwing voters, I'm willing to assume that rightwing voters might concider the more extreme right and sometimes fascist parties as an alternative and focus on the left wing voter - or a person who maintains Democratic values, Human rights, a social-economic agenda...

there is much frustration these days in amongst the those voters. from talks I had with many people of both convictions. the corruption they see in the government and around them while they continue to serve in active reserves at the army and pay taxes... when there's always someone else before you in the long line to recieve government help in anything... when you see that the whole economy is in crisis but the government instead of trying to limit its expences or make it self more efficient keeps increasing the expenses more and more by adding more ministers. maybe the reason they are not trying to make themselves more efficient is that they don't have enough ministers to worry about it...

who can I vote for than this voter of our asks? who could make a difference?

the answer is evident. to date - there is no alternative. there is no new party who would be able to make a difference... the next elections are going to be quite interesting. on one hand they are going to be the first elections since the direct PM elections were cancelled - thus it is expected that the smaller parties will lose some of their power... but on the other hand, there's is a lot of misstrust and disapointment at the current political leaders - so maybe voters would rather cast their vote at the smaller or new parties. My bet is unless we see some change (a new party for example, with new people) there will be a very low voting percentage.

or maybe as marx has predicted the workers, the people who seem to be left out of all of the current govt equations will unite, and there will be a new social order. one more equal hopefully. maybe the time is right for the Israeli social revolution.

power to the people?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mike Kilo (4X)
indeed it is true that the two main parties in Israel (the "Likud" from the right and the Avoda from the left) do not quite have an ideological agenda... both are much more concerned with their political survival and chasing power. further more, the actuall ideological agenda of both is unknown. depending on the day of the week you can hear either leader of the two main parties justifying what supposedly is the other party's agenda and vise versa...
Mike,

To say the Likud and Labour have no "ideological agenda" is plain wrong. They both share a Zionist agenda, although they differ about their approaches to making peace with the Arabs.

As for political parties being interested in gaining power, this is true everywhere in the world, because gaining power in government is, by definition, the function of a political party.

But there is also a degree of unity in the current Israeli government, following the Palestinian war of terror. This has been a repeating pattern for decades and nothing new. And, in fact, there is nothing wrong with a unity government, because there is strength in unity and weakness in division.

From your quote from Marx, I get the impression that you would prefer to see communism, even though like all over the world, that model has failed dismally. Of course the Israeli public supports democracy and capitalism. Are you surprised?

[Mediocrates]

What distinguishes UK style Parliamentiarism from the Knesset? Or for that matter from the Italian system which has broken up and reformed 60 times since the end of WW2. Well for one thing in the UK there are basically 2 opposing sides where minor parties subsume their differences under the general aegis of Labor vs. Tory. The Knesset has no alignment like that.

I remember reading a while back an initiative on forming an upper house to the Knesset formed along the lines of the US Senate. Does that have any credibility? Is that a possible answer or does Israel need to abandon somewhat its socialist past and install a meaningful executive branch instead?

Perhaps a variation on the French system? There has to be some way around the constant anarchy and breeding ground for corruption and inefficiency that is the reality of Israeli politics.

Is it time for a Constitution? I can't imagine what tortured process would engender one now.

[Mike Kilo (4X)]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

...to say that the Likud and Labour have no "ideological agenda" is plain wrong....


Up until the recent voting in the likud when the likud said NO to a palestinian state, that was quite an unclear question. note that the leader of the party believes there should be... voters think other than the man in power. beyond the fact that such a leader should quit, since he no longer has the support of his voters, I want to stress the fact that this (Sharon in favor of a palestinian state) seems to go against the supposed agenda the likud party has. the point is that although theoretically speaking both parties evidently have different sources and ideas - right now, di facto, there is little different between the both, and with both in power - there is no real alternative. further more, suppose the political window of opportunities is re-opened, what will sharon decide when asked about a Palestinian state? can't tell.


Continued from NewsGuy
As for political parties being interested in gaining power, this is true everywhere in the world, because gaining power in government is, by definition, the function of a political party.


that is not the function of the political party. that is a MEANS that political parties HAVE to use in order to apply their agenda and ideologies. while you truthfully say that there is power in unity, the current government of unity is not a good example for that. the current government is a gathering of conflicting economic interests and political supposed enemies for the sake of governing.

As far as marx goes - I belive it was Austin who said that "Democracy, due to lack of a better model, seems to have become the goal of all history". (I'm not a communist - bare with me) Communism as marx described it has never been implemented in this planet (well maybe in Star Trek - does that count?) - hence Marx's communism hasn't failed (yet), it simply hasn't been tried yet. I recommend you read the political taught of Marx - it's quite enlightening.

"Democracy is the worst kind of government, except of all of the other forms they tried in history..." (Winston Churchil). I believe in democracy and that Israel should be a democracy, but democracies are imperfect by definition - so I keep my mind open. of course, we could also argue if the Israeli democracy is a real democracy or simply an oligarchy of the rich and powerful... but that would be a whole new debate, right? ;)

thank you for your reply.

[Mike Kilo (4X)]

I dissent!

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
There?s nothing wrong with wanting peace...

...Islam is just biding its time waiting for the moment to destroy Israel...

...In 1967 Israel was lucky since then a number of errors were made...



Islam indeed is a combatant religeon that has put it self as the enemy of the world when it declared the holy Jihad against all infidels

the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians or arabs goes far back at least to the time of the Mandate if not earlier. it's the britt's fault.

saying that Israel, as a jewish state was lucky to have gained the territories is a very sad thing. suddenly there were 250K more arabs in the new growing Jewish state, which still today is struggling to maintain the jewish majority (it's harder now since the palestinians grew to 2.5 Million)

there was one big Error made after the conquering of the territories and it's that we haven't rid our selves of them as soon as we could. Had israel returned the territories there wouldn't have been a Palestinian national movement. it would have been squashed by the Jordanians (as they already did once in Black september)

[/QUOTE]Cont'd from L@mplighterM
...Many Palestinians will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel... If the Palestinians had had weapons equal to or surpassing those of Israel in the latest conflict it would have been disastrous for Israel and the IDF...

[/Quote]
But they don't have such weapons... besides the question is irrelevant as history has often taught us. people do things simply because they can. Had Israel been able to use the same means Mubarak uses against the fundamentalists in egypt or Hussein used against the PLO (Black sept again) - or simply the political arena was such that would allow to kill all of them - wouldn't Sharon already have done it?

again cont'd...

...You might think there?s peace with Egypt but there?s continuous border conflicts with Israelis and Egyptians shooting at each other. In fact it could be considered as a continuous state of war...

Peaceniks are needed but so are hardliners and I belong to the latter.

Could you be more wrong?

Egypt hasn't shot at Israel once since then. except for a case in which a fanatic went crazy with an AK-47 at Israeli tourists inside sinay.

further more the most 'quiet' border Israel has is the one with Syria - with whom there is no question that we are still at war... so maybe the amount of incidents isn't the right criteria to test the peace with a nation!

hardist may be needed, but I hope not all of them are as uninformed as you are! I am proud to say I seek peace!

[cerulean]

As far as marx goes - I belive it was Austin who said that "Democracy, due to lack of a better model, seems to have become the goal of all history". (I'm not a communist - bare with me) Communism as marx described it has never been implemented in this planet (well maybe in Star Trek - does that count?) - hence Marx's communism hasn't failed (yet), it simply hasn't been tried yet. I recommend you read the political taught of Marx - it's quite enlightening.

Lots of people have tried to implement Marxism. It requires people be more altruistic than they actually are or reasonably can be, thus requiring vicious force to implement. If it's implemented at a small voluntary community level (like a commune), it typically only lasts so long as a charismatic leader can hold sway over the inhabitants.

It is expected in a typical family that all the members will give from "each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Thus the adult parents will expend great resources taking care of children who are unable to provide resources. That's because the members of a family should, in theory, have a commonality of interest. It's unreasonable that this could possibly be done on a large-scale basis among non-family members.

In contrast to communism, Western democracy is highly fault-tolerant and correctable. It's never perfect, or even close, but it works with actual humans.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by cerulean
In contrast to communism, Western democracy is highly fault-tolerant and correctable. It's never perfect, or even close, but it works with actual humans.

Do I smell a sniff of criticism on the oll' commies here :D?
Plato (a great Greek philosopher, 404 AC) knew already that democracy was not the 'ideal' option, still it is better compared to the tyranny, oligarchy and other state forms. Problem with democracy is that it is too often based on emotions rather than on 'ratio' (the mind). Marxism was not ideal either, but too many people have mixed it up with Stalinism or Maonism. which is a shame.

[L@mplighterM]

Here’s the article regarding the Egyptian soldier. I don’t know if it was this article or another that stated that across border shootings are sporadic they flare up once in a while.



Egyptian soldier shot
Jerusalem Post; Jerusalem; May 10, 2002; ARIEH O'SULLIVAN;

Words in Document: 131

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Abstract:
The IDF said it had no information on the shooting of the Egyptian soldier, but noted its own troops came under fire while trying to locate tunnels used by the Palestinian Authority to smuggle weapons and materiel from Egypt into the Gaza Strip.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/index.html?ts=1021742776

[L@mplighterM]

Israel returns body of Egyptian policeman
Here’s another article. Actually as I understand the situation is that there’s continuous tension that erupts into gunfire from time to time.

So I will not yield!

I stand by my original statement that there’s a continuous state of was between Egypt and Israel and I base that on media reports.

Further it doesn’t take much imagination to figure how these Egyptians happened to get themselves shot.

Jerusalem Post; Jerusalem; Jul 1, 2001; ARIEH O'SULLIVAN;

Words in Document: 485

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Abstract:
Egyptian military liaison officers crossed into Israel yesterday to participate in a joint investigation on how an Egyptian border policeman was killed just inside the border.

Reuters quoted Egyptian officials as saying the Egyptian border policeman was shot along with a number of Egyptian soldiers in a clash between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen. It also said the man had been transferred ...


http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/index.html?ts=1021742776

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mike Kilo (4X)
Communism as marx described it has never been implemented in this planet (well maybe in Star Trek - does that count?) - hence Marx's communism hasn't failed (yet), it simply hasn't been tried yet.

What about the Israeli Kibbutz?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by sharonbn


What about the Israeli Kibbutz?

How are these doing now? I've been told they are falling apart. Perhaps the person telling me was unduly critical.

However, when they did or do work, I would tend to think it's because there is a sufficient sense of community that the members, like in a well-functioning family, are able to work together in an altruistic manner.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by cerulean


How are these doing now? I've been told they are falling apart. Perhaps the person telling me was unduly critical.

However, when they did or do work, I would tend to think it's because there is a sufficient sense of community that the members, like in a well-functioning family, are able to work together in an altruistic manner.

Part of the problem is the difference between the kibbutz structure and the tax and property ownership code of the nation. The modern Israeli laws aren't well suited to tax or organize or legitimize, legally a kibbutz anymore which is why there are a few initiatives to allow for private ownership and taxation inside a kibbutz structure. The socialist nature of the country which is high tax, welfare state are at odds with the basic independence of the kibbutzim and their organization. The state needs to treat them differently and take a more sane approach to involvement or non involvement in collectives. After all if the state is your partner, great, but the state is really only a taker and does not offering much in return as a benefit or an incentive to the collective.