Rerouting Fence Leaves Israel's Heartland Exposed

[Elisheba]

The fateful June 30 judgment by Israeli High Court Justices Aharon Barak, Mishael Heshin and Eliahu Matza, that saving Palestinians from hardship must take precedence over saving Israeli lives, foredoomed to failure the security barrier’s efficacy in separating Palestinian terrorists from their chosen targets in the most heavily populated parts of Israel.

The alacrity of prime minister Ariel Sharon and defense minister Shaul Mofaz to comply with this ruling - as though it were a judgment from heaven - has stamped Israel’s four-and-a-half year conflict against Palestinian terrorism with the mark of its government’s weakness.

A cursory examination of the map attached to this article betrays the extent to which the Sharon government has botched the entire defense barrier project. The map shows the revised route as approved by Mofaz Tuesday night for presentation to the prime minister’s office Wednesday, July 28. }

Ignoring the extensive population fluctuations since 1967, the route has been dragged closer to the old Green Line. The barrier starting from Elkana north of Trans-Shomron Highway 5 now turns west to skirt the eastern outskirts of Rosh Ha’Ayin and wind south along the Rosh Ha-Ayin-Ben Shemen Highway 444 . From Ben Shemen , the fence turns east up to Maccabim.

No barrier is allowed to protect the next 8 kilometers of Highway 443 from Maccabim to Givat Zeev on the western fringe of Jerusalem , despite its proximity to Ramallah. The IDF promises to “secure” the road by other means.

In the Jerusalem district , the fence will circumvent the houses and lands of the Palestinian villages of Bidou (opposite the Jewish suburb of Har Adar) and Beit Iqsa. The latter abuts on the Jerusalem suburb of Ramot and the western edge of Mevassaret Zion. The same village is also situated in strategic command of the Motza-Sakharov Junction section at the Jerusalem end of the main Highway 1 from Tel Aviv.

Palestinian terrorists will therefore retain unimpeded access to the following key locations in central Israel:

The Rosh Ha’Ayin conurbation (30 km northeast of Tel Aviv) south of Highway 5; the residential-industrial block of Shoham, Elad, and Beit Arie, as well as Ben Gurion international airport , Israel Air Industries and the urban center of Modi’in that depend on Highway 444 , plus the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem Highway 443 .

All the locations on this list will remain dangerously unprotected against - and within range of -Palestinian mortars and Qassam missiles, as well as suicide bombers. So too will the main Jerusalem-Tel Aviv Highway 1.

Should West Bank Palestinians decided to launch simultaneous barrages against the segments of Highways 443 and 1 under their guns, they can cut Jerusalem off from the rest of the country, leaving it dependent on the old, narrow, winding 395 route through Ain Karem.

One could shrug off these perils and say: leave it all to the Israeli army to take care of, were it not for two fresh developments.

1. Israeli forces deployed more than a month in the northern Gaza Strip, focusing on Beit Hanoun, are yet unable to stamp out the Palestinian Qassam missile offensive against southern Israel. The fact of the matter is that no army in the world today, even US forces in Baghdad, are capable of totally halting missile and mortar attacks carried out by small, swiftly moving teams who keep their weapons hidden at home.

Official Israeli releases catalogue the missile attacks directed against the western Negev to the east of the Gaza Strip. They omit mention of the missiles the Palestinians shoot north in the direction of the Ashkelon power station. So far, the Palestinian missile launchers have shot wide of this target, but their first hit could put out the lights in large parts of Israel.

2. The current power struggle in the Palestinian leadership is misrepresented as a conflict between Arafat at the head of a war-and-terror faction and peace-loving reformists. Israeli spokesmen refrain from pointing out that the opposition fighting Arafat and his corrupt ways wants control over Palestinian institutions, but certainly not for the sake of ending the war against Israel. Quite the reverse; Arafat’s foes are as determined as he to continue their terror campaign against the Jewish state, only they believe that reformed Palestinian security forces in their hands would wage this war to greater effect.

By failing to expose the real objectives of Palestinian anti-Arafat, pro-reform dissidents as regards Israel and agreeing to reduce the defense barrier’s usefulness as a shield, the Sharon government is playing into inimical Palestinian hands. Regardless of who comes out on top of the Palestinian leadership conflict, the IDF will be left with the tough task of defending the almost indefensible.


DEBKAfile Special Analysis

[Independent]

I think that conflict causes Israel's Heartland to be Exposed. Would a wall along the green line reduce conflict?

[Gilgamesh]

I think that conflict causes Israel's Heartland to be Exposed. Would a wall along the green line reduce conflict?

NO!

The conflict revolves over Israel right to exist and Jews right to self determination.

The current conflict started many years before the fense was ever consived, and the current conflict is only the last in a seies of conflicts in the ME between we Jews and the Arabs. The common to all these conflicts is the Arab denial of Jews right of self determination, Jews right for self sovereignity and practicly Jews right to live. For decades, Arab leaders promissed to "continue Hitler's mission" and to "drive Jews into the sea".

The roots of the conflicts based on Islamist believe in Islam world domination and Muhammads conquests on the 7th century. The whole ME is populated by Arabs as a result of Muhammad and his follower initial conquest.

At the time, military empire building were much in fasion. The problem arises from Islam construction, which promotes empire building and consider feudal-religious economy as the only legitimate "just" economy, which again, calls for empire building to support it.

[Elisheba]

I think that conflict causes Israel's Heartland to be Exposed. Would a wall along the green line reduce conflict?


I know what you mean because every so often I get sucked into thinking within the paramaters of 'what is' rather than 'what might be' ... what might be is NO ISRAEL.

Then, I read another simply perfect analysis (shut up whoever said something about me having a crush on Gilgamesh!!!) from Gilgamesh and I realize the issue is a much larger one.

There are, what, 22/23 arab countries and little Israel? And they are busy figuring out how to slice and dice her already? Please: we need the 'Right of Return' and that would be please to return all the arabs to Jordan (or the few other countries they belong to {but don't want them either} and let Eretz Israel be Israel!

[eyl]

Can you post the link? I'd like to see the map of the new route before commenting further.

The fateful June 30 judgment by Israeli High Court Justices Aharon Barak, Mishael Heshin and Eliahu Matza, that saving Palestinians from hardship must take precedence over saving Israeli lives, foredoomed to failure the security barrier’s efficacy in separating Palestinian terrorists from their chosen targets in the most heavily populated parts of Israel.

The alacrity of prime minister Ariel Sharon and defense minister Shaul Mofaz to comply with this ruling - as though it were a judgment from heaven - has stamped Israel’s four-and-a-half year conflict against Palestinian terrorism with the mark of its government’s weakness.

A cursory examination of the map attached to this article betrays the extent to which the Sharon government has botched the entire defense barrier project. The map shows the revised route as approved by Mofaz Tuesday night for presentation to the prime minister’s office Wednesday, July 28. }
[/I][/B]

[Elisheba]

Can you post the link? I'd like to see the map of the new route before commenting further.

I'm sorry, but I cannot. Although the article makes reference to an attached map, I received none. The article came to my personal email from one of my pro-Israel mailing lists and I posted it in its entirety.

So, I went to DEBKA and performed a search: no map there either. I am at a loss. :(

[Independent]

NO!

The conflict revolves over Israel right to exist and Jews right to self determination.

The current conflict started many years before the fense was ever consived, and the current conflict is only the last in a seies of conflicts in the ME between we Jews and the Arabs. The common to all these conflicts is the Arab denial of Jews right of self determination, Jews right for self sovereignity and practicly Jews right to live. For decades, Arab leaders promissed to "continue Hitler's mission" and to "drive Jews into the sea".

The roots of the conflicts based on Islamist believe in Islam world domination and Muhammads conquests on the 7th century. The whole ME is populated by Arabs as a result of Muhammad and his follower initial conquest.

At the time, military empire building were much in fasion. The problem arises from Islam construction, which promotes empire building and consider feudal-religious economy as the only legitimate "just" economy, which again, calls for empire building to support it.

Agreed. Yet, the conflict also revolves over the native ancestors of Abraham and and their right to self determination. Both sides need to work together because many are, afterall, related to each other.

I think that the main problem here is the ability of two cultures to live together. One culture wants to create a place that has a special meaning for their religion, while the other culture has been seeking its own identity. For some reason, both cultures could not merge their interests into one common goal. Early resistance against the Jewish desire to create a Jewish state began mostly with Christianity. I think that Muslims took over the resistance about 20 years ago due to different methods of resistance which the local people believed were more successfull than the methods practiced by the Christians. Interestingly, the Muslim usage of resistance seems to have weakened Christianity while increasing support for radical Islam in the area.

[Elisheba]

Independent


How many arab states do you need?

There are over 20, right?

Why do you find it intolerable to have just one Israel?

[Independent]

Independent


How many arab states do you need?

There are over 20, right?

Why do you find it intolerable to have just one Israel?

The number of states inhabitated mainly with Semites and how these Semites choose to call their states is not an issue. The issue is the ability of the people on a piece of land to work together and achieve common goals, such as creating an independent state and giving it a name like "Israel". When the locals are ignored and rejected from the process of creating a name for the land that they live in, then problems will occur.

[Elisheba]

The number of states inhabitated mainly with Semites and how these Semites choose to call their states is not an issue. The issue is the ability of the people on a piece of land to work together and achieve common goals, such as creating an independent state and giving it a name like "Israel". When the locals are ignored and rejected from the process of creating a name for the land that they live in, then problems will occur.


Your Semite 'argument' has been effectively debunked on another thread by one more knowledgeable than I (or you, obviously), so I'll just let that pass.

The locals are not ignored: the locals for thousands of years have been and will continue to be JEWS.

As the Israelis have taken in Jews from ANYWHERE, so should the arabs take in those they left behind as propaganda tools in 1948 when they thought they'd drive the modern state of Israel into the sea.

Unfortunately for the arabs, Jordan doesn't even want them AND they are mostly Jordanian!

However, surely out of more than 20 arab countries, the arabs could attempt to behave in the exemplary manner of Israel and take in those they leave to use for dupes like you.

[Mediocrates]

It's a stupid argument on its foundation. Why have any countries at all? Why bother to look at black on black violence in the inner cities? Were German Jews German? If you live in Israel and three generations ago your parents came from Iraq are you the same kind of Israeli as those who came from Poland? Are Polish Israelis 'semites'? Aren't all the arabs killing each other still arabs? See, it's silly. The racial argument falls on its face.

[Elisheba]

It's a stupid argument on its foundation. Why have any countries at all? Why bother to look at black on black violence in the inner cities? Were German Jews German? If you live in Israel and three generations ago your parents came from Iraq are you the same kind of Israeli as those who came from Poland? Are Polish Israelis 'semites'? Aren't all the arabs killing each other still arabs? See, it's silly. The racial argument falls on its face.

Okay, you say it's a stupid argument.

What is your solution?

[Mediocrates]

Indie isn't proposing a solution, it's a non-solution. It doesn't matter if Palestinians and Israelis share the same DNA. Nothing else about them is the same and certainly not politically or socially or culturally the same. This tired old saw that we are our biology is nonsense from I don't know where and it leads nowhere.

And, I don't care about religious justifications because I can ALWAYS find someone else who would stake an earlier claim. What about the Berbers? Why make Berberland? It leads nowhere and if they people who propose it ever thought about it the only solution in their world would be for all of us to be running around in deerskins as noble savages like it's the late stone age before there were states or governments or nations.

Because Israel is a country right now and no amount rhetorical uninventing it is meaningful. No other country on earth has even been dragged before the world and told to defend and justify its existence. Not one. Because countries exist. Israel exists and on that simple fact alone it must be allowed to preserve its existence through whatever means it can. Period.

[Elisheba]

Indie isn't proposing a solution, it's a non-solution. It doesn't matter if Palestinians and Israelis share the same DNA. Nothing else about them is the same and certainly not politically or socially or culturally the same. This tired old saw that we are our biology is nonsense from I don't know where and it leads nowhere.

And, I don't care about religious justifications because I can ALWAYS find someone else who would stake an earlier claim. What about the Berbers? Why make Berberland? It leads nowhere and if they people who propose it ever thought about it the only solution in their world would be for all of us to be running around in deerskins as noble savages like it's the late stone age before there were states or governments or nations.

Because Israel is a country right now and no amount rhetorical uninventing it is meaningful. No other country on earth has even been dragged before the world and told to defend and justify its existence. Not one. Because countries exist. Israel exists and on that simple fact alone it must be allowed to preserve its existence through whatever means it can. Period.

Thank you. I agree 100%. Please address your posts in the future; that was the confusion: I didn't know if you were attacking me ... <blushing>.

Independent has already shown he is pro-Islamofascist ... he's bouncing thread to thread with horrible distortions!

[Mediocrates]

Sorry, that was a 'slip' post out of sequence.

[Elisheba]

Sorry, that was a 'slip' post out of sequence.

Oh, I see. Thanks. :)

[Independent]

Indie isn't proposing a solution, it's a non-solution. It doesn't matter if Palestinians and Israelis share the same DNA. Nothing else about them is the same and certainly not politically or socially or culturally the same. This tired old saw that we are our biology is nonsense from I don't know where and it leads nowhere.

And, I don't care about religious justifications because I can ALWAYS find someone else who would stake an earlier claim. What about the Berbers? Why make Berberland? It leads nowhere and if they people who propose it ever thought about it the only solution in their world would be for all of us to be running around in deerskins as noble savages like it's the late stone age before there were states or governments or nations.
Exactly, it is ignorant and foolish to claim that the natives of the area known as Palestine are not the natives and it is foolish to attempt to remove the natives because of religion, especially given that most are Semites. Instead of blaming, pushing and practicing racial cleansing, it makes much more sense to adapt, mix, socialize, tolerate and accept. If the culture of the locals is too difficult for one to work with, then one must immigrate to less hostile locations because racial cleansing is never a solution.
Because Israel is a country right now and no amount rhetorical uninventing it is meaningful. No other country on earth has even been dragged before the world and told to defend and justify its existence. Not one. Because countries exist. Israel exists and on that simple fact alone it must be allowed to preserve its existence through whatever means it can. Period.Most people support Israel, Israel existence is not the question nor the issue. The issue is the desire to practice racial cleansing, removing the people who live on the land for religious purposes. Most criticism is directed at this issue.

[abu afak]

"....I think that the main problem here is the ability of two cultures to live together. One culture wants to create a place that has a special meaning for their religion, while the other culture has been seeking its own identity. For some reason, both cultures could not merge their interests into one common goal. Early resistance against the Jewish desire to create a Jewish state began mostly with Christianity. I think that Muslims took over the resistance about 20 years ago due to different methods of resistance which the local people believed were more successfull than the methods practiced by the Christians. Interestingly, the Muslim usage of resistance seems to have weakened Christianity while increasing support for radical Islam in the area.

You are really Out of it buddy.

"..Early resistance against the Jewish desire to create a Jewish state began mostly with Christianity. I think that Muslims took over the resistance about 20 years ago due to different methods of resistance which the local people..."

In 1948 it was The Arabs who were the main voters against an Isreali State in the UN.

It was the Arabs who 56 Years ago (for the first of 3 times) tried to wipe the Jews off the map..
This was not "20 Years ago" ..

Holy Cr*p! you are completely gone.. and daily repeat Misinfo in post after post.

"semite" is a Lingual distintion/grouping .. Not Racial.. although Palestinians and Israelis are closely related Genetically As Well.

You are just one giant piece of Misinformation

[Gilgamesh]

Agreed. Yet, the conflict also revolves over the native ancestors of Abraham and and their right to self determination. I have nothing against Arab self determination. Arab pracitce their right over a territory 500 times the size of Israel, which is some 10% of planet earth land mass.

What I don't accept is Arab's using their "rights" to rob MY rights. They can practice their self determination where ever they feel like. I don't mind at all, with the one exception I hate it be entirely on MY expance.

Both sides need to work together because many are, afterall, related to each other. Good idea!!! Push it forward full force!. Start with the Arabs though, cause you got me convinced already!

I think that the main problem here is the ability of two cultures to live together. One culture wants to create a place that has a special meaning for their religion, while the other culture has been seeking its own identity. For some reason, both cultures could not merge their interests into one common goal. this is the whole Jewish-Arab conflict in a nut shell.

Early resistance against the Jewish desire to create a Jewish state began mostly with Christianity. I think that Muslims took over the resistance about 20 years ago due to different methods of resistance which the local people believed were more successfull than the methods practiced by the Christians. Interestingly, the Muslim usage of resistance seems to have weakened Christianity while increasing support for radical Islam in the area. Now you lost me.
Arab resistance for a Jewish state started over a hundered years ago. Ever since some Jews (Zionists, like me) started to believe that 1. It is possible to restore Jewish sovereignity to the land of our ancestors. 2. We have no other choise since anti semetism in Europe is on the rise 3. There are new modern arguments to express our national rights, self determination and freedom of worship.

But if you wish to look for oddities about the conflict, check this one: The more the Arabs resist Jews rights, by terrorism and war, Israel's power and strenght grow, and Arab become weaker more backwarded in all places OUT SIDE Israel's control. Regaurdless of all the aid they recived from the Amricans and Soviets over the last 6-7 decades.

[Independent]

I have nothing against Arab self determination. Arab pracitce their right over a territory 500 times the size of Israel, which is some 10% of planet earth land mass. Did you know that not all Semites speak the same language? There are even many different dialects.
What I don't accept is Arab's using their "rights" to rob MY rights. They can practice their self determination where ever they feel like. I don't mind at all, with the one exception I hate it be entirely on MY expance. Palestinians are only living on the land that their ancestors lived on. Why do people want to rob this land from them?
Good idea!!! Push it forward full force!. Start with the Arabs though, cause you got me convinced already! Palestinians will achieve nothing when they are neither respected nor recognized and when others want to have their land. Peace means that both sides must work together.
this is the whole Jewish-Arab conflict in a nut shell. I'm glad that there is one thing that we can agree upon.
Now you lost me.
Arab resistance for a Jewish state started over a hundered years ago. Ever since some Jews (Zionists, like me) started to believe that 1. It is possible to restore Jewish sovereignity to the land of our ancestors. 2. We have no other choise since anti semetism in Europe is on the rise 3. There are new modern arguments to express our national rights, self determination and freedom of worship.Sorry, but I don't follow. Do you know of a good article which discusses this conflict that is believed to have existed prior to 1904?
But if you wish to look for oddities about the conflict, check this one: The more the Arabs resist Jews rights, by terrorism and war, Israel's power and strenght grow, and Arab become weaker more backwarded in all places OUT SIDE Israel's control. Regaurdless of all the aid they recived from the Amricans and Soviets over the last 6-7 decades.It seems as if Palestinians don't have a choice. Either they resist, or millions of innocent men and women will be forced into Jordan. I guess, the main question is, when will some Semites stop practicing racial cleansing, removing the natives from the holy land?

[Independent]

You are really Out of it buddy.
In 1948 it was The Arabs who were the main voters against an Isreali State in the UN.Why were Semites against a plan which excluded them from living in their homeland?
It was the Arabs who 56 Years ago (for the first of 3 times) tried to wipe the Jews off the map.. This was not "20 Years ago" ..That is a conspiracy theory, unless it can be proven. Being forcefully removal from one's homeland does not mean what you say.
"semite" is a Lingual distintion/grouping .. Not Racial.. although Palestinians and Israelis are closely related Genetically As Well.I think that some people want to believe that they are not like other Semites so that they have a reason to dislike them.

[Gilgamesh]

Did you know that not all Semites speak the same language? There are even many different dialects. Being a Semite, a Jew and an Israeli, I very much aware of these facts. Even within Arabic, there are accents and even dialects. AFAIK, there is NO "Palestinian" accent, let alone a dialect.

Semites are a race, like any other race. It is natureal for a race to have several diaclects and languages: See Africa, Europe, south east Asia.

Modern Arabs swallowed and fused most older Semite races leaving no trace for past cultural - national idnetities. So much of the Semite race today, consists of Jews Arabs and Persians (and Afgan who are related to the persians) There is some debate about the Turks, Armenians and Georgians.

Palestinians are only living on the land that their ancestors lived on. common misperception, out come of heavy Arab propaganda. Just from walking the streets in Israel (where there are many Arabs) I can see this claim is a lie.

The number of "indigenous" Arabs must be very small. Repeated processes of immigration and emigration of Arabs, to and from Israel, must have depleted the number of "indigenous" Arabs compaletly. This is not a valid argument I can accept to devide Israel's territory.

Arabs have their lands, we Jews must have ours.

Why do people want to rob this land from them?
I disagree with "rob". The land is Jewish land, either bought from Arabs or was never owned by Arabs.

Palestinians will achieve nothing when they are neither respected nor recognized and when others want to have their land. Right! Then they should move the fight into Arab countries, not Israel.

We Jews have rights too, and we will achive nothing when our rights are neither respected or recognized and when others, Arabs, want to have our Jewish land.

Sorry, but I don't follow. Do you know of a good article which discusses this conflict that is believed to have existed prior to 1904? Any history of the region in Othoman era will do.

The conflict was smaller and taken in other means.

It seems as if Palestinians don't have a choice. We Jews, when faced by the moral dilema of either death or committing a murder (of an innocent), a Jew must always choose death. This is not the case with Arab terrorists. There is always a choise.

Either they resist, or millions of innocent men and women will be forced into Jordan. The conlfict in the past 4 years, convinced more Arabs to move out, then the decades of Israeli "occupation". In fact, only these days, Arab population gorwth was somewhat declined.

The fighting with the Arabs today, INCREESE their chances of getting transfared. It was not so, in the many decades of Israel's control of the WB and Gaza sine 67 war.

I guess, the main question is, when will some Semites stop practicing racial cleansing, removing the natives from the holy land? When the Arab's cultural level will rise up (again? ), when fundemental perception of Muslem beliefe will be altered. When more personal freedoms will be allowed in Arab countreis.

[Independent]

With all due respect, Gilgamesh, the 'Security Fence & Separation' section no longer interests me. There is just too much cultural intolerance here, too much racism, too many accusations, too much Arab hatred floating around. I think that when people hate other cultures so greatly, the only one who can help them is themselves. I'll go look at some other topics which seem to be more peaceful and focus more on tolerance that justifications for the practice of racial cleansing.

[Elisheba]

Toda raba, Gilgamesh, for ridding this area (anyway) of that putz, independent.

[Gilgamesh]

Toda raba, Gilgamesh, for ridding this area (anyway) of that putz, independent.

You are welcome! My plessure as always!

I had hoped to extract "independece" some admition that will revel his true nature... I'll try next time.

[Independent]

You are welcome! My plessure as always!

I had hoped to extract "independece" some admition that will revel his true nature... I'll try next time.

My true nature is to discuss the conflict with others. Unfortunately, some people are too blinded by racism to be capable of analyzing problems for the purpose of understanding them. Neverthess, I thank you for your time and efforts. Carry on and continue being yourself. :) I meant to say than instead of that in the last post. :)

[Elisheba]

Independent:

"How can we miss you if you won't go away?"

Come on: you promised you were leaving this thread ... don't go back on your promise again ... it shows a lack of integrity.

:p