Christ In Islam!

[Evolution]

-------------

CHRIST IN ISLAM by Ahmed Deedat



CHAPTER 1: CHRISTIAN MUSLIM RESPONSES

DEBATE ON TV

At the end of the debate - "Christianity and Islam" - which appeared on the SABC-TV programme "CROSS (+) QUESTIONS" on Sunday 5th June 1983, the Chairman, Mr.Bill Chalmers commented:

"I think it can be said from this descussion that there is, at present, somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is on the Christian side for the founder of Isl am."

What the significance of that is, we leave it to you, the viewer, to determine, but I do think you will agree that it is a good thing that we are talking together." "BILL" as he is popularly addressed, without any formalities, on all his programmes, by all his panelists, is extremely charming and stupendous in his humility. He is a picture of what the Holy Quran portrays of a good Christian:

"...AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO THE BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY, "WE ARE CHRISTIANS"1: BECAUSE AMONG THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNDED THE WORLD. AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT."

HOLY QURAN 5:58

JESUS - HIS STATUS

Were the Muslims on the panel, trying to placate the viewers out of policy, deceit or diplomacy ? Nothing of the kind! They were only articulating what God Almighty had commanded them to say in the Holy Quran. As Muslim they had no choice. They had said in so many words -

"WE MUSLIMS BELIEVE, THAT JESUS WAS ONE OF THE MIGHTIEST MESSENGERS OF GOD, THAT HE WAS THE CHRIST, THAT HE WAS BORN MIRACULOUSLY - WITHOUT ANY MALE INTERVENTION (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today), THAT HE GAVE LIFE TO THE DEAD BY GOD'S PERMISSION, AND THAT HE HEALED THOSE BORN BLIND AND THE LEPERS BY GOD'S PERMISSION. IN FACT NO MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM IF HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!"

Pleasant SURPRISE

Over 90% of the people who witnessed this debate must have been pleasantly, but sceptically, surprised. They might have not believed their ears. They must have surmised that the Muslims were playing to the gallery-that they were trying to curry favour with their fellow Christian countrymen; that if the Muslims would say a few good words about Jesus, then in reciprocation the Christians might say a few good words about Muhummed (May the Peace and the Blessings of God be upon all His righteous servents- like Moses, Jesus, Muhummed ); that I scratch your back and you scratch my back - which would be a sham or hypocrisy.

HATE CULTIVATED

We cannot blame the Christians for their scepticism. They have been so programmed for centuries. They were trained to think the worst of the man Muhummed (pbuh) and his religion. How aptly did Thomas Carlyle say about his Christian brethren over a hundred and fifty years ago - "THE LIES WHICH WELLMEANING ZEAL HAS HEAPED ROUND THIS MAN (Muhummed) ARE DISGRACEFUL TO OURSELVES ONLY." We Muslims are partly responsible for this staggering ignorance of the 1,200,000,000 Christians of the world. We have not done anything substantial to remove the cobwebs.

OCEAN OF CHRISTIANITY

South Africa is an ocean of Christianity. If Libya boasts the highest percentage of Muslims on the continent of Africa, then the Republic of South Africa would also be entitled to boast the highest percentage of Christians. In this ocean of Christianity - the R.S.A. - the Muslim is barely 2% of the total population. We are a voteless minority-numerically we count for nothing; politically, we count for nothing, and economically, one white man, as Oppenheimer, could buy out the whole lot of us, lock, stock and barrel.

So, if we had feigned to appease, we might be excused. But no! We must proclaim our Master's Will; we must declare the Truth, whether we liked it or not. In the words of Jesus (pbuh): "Seek ye the truth, and the truth shall set you free" - (John 9:32).

CHAPTER 2: JESUS IN THE QURAN

CHRISTIANS UNAWARE

The Christian does not know that the true spirit of charity which the Muslim displays, always, towards Jesus and his mother Mary spring from the fountainhead of his faith- the Holy Quran. He does not know that the Muslim does not take the holy name of Jesus, in his own language, without saying Hazrat Eesa (meaning revered Jesus) or Eesa alai-hiss-salaam i.e. (Jesus peace be upon him).

Every time the Muslim mentions the name Jesus (pbuh) without these words of respect, he would be considered disrespectful, uncouth or barbaric. The Christian does not know that in the Holy Quran Jesus (pbuh) is mentioned by name five times (5x) more than the number of times the prophet of Islam is mentioned in the Book of God. To be exact - twenty fiv e time as against five. For example:

"..WE GAVE JESUS THE SON OF MARY CLEAR SIGNS AND STRENGTHENED HIM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" HOLY QURAN 2:87

"..O MARY! GOD GIVETH THEE GLAD TIDINGS OF A WORD FROM HIM: HIS NAME WILL BE CHRIST JESUS, THE SON OF MARY.." HOLY QURAN 3:45

"..CHRIST JESUS THE SON OF MARY WAS (NO MORE THAN) AN APOSTLE OF GOD.." HOLY QURAN 4:171

"..AND IN THEIR (the previous Prophets') FOOTSTEPS WE SENT JESUS THE SON OF MARY.." HOLY QURAN 5:49

"AND ZAKARIYA AND JOHN, AND JESUS AND ELIAS: ALL IN THE RANKS OF THE RIGHTEOUS:" HOLY QURAN 6:85

JESUS - HIS TITLES

Though Jesus is mentioned by name in twenty-five places in the Holy Quran he is also addressed with respect as:"Ibne Maryam" - son of Mary;as Masi (Heb) Messiah - translated as Christ; "Abd-ullah" servant of Allah;"Rasul -Ullah" - Messenger of Allah.

He is spoken of as "the word of God", as "the spirit of God", as a "Sign of God", and numerous other epithets of honour spread over fifteen different chapters. The Holy Quran honours this mighty Messenger of God, and the Muslims have not fallen short over the past fourteen hundred years in doing the same. There is not a single disparaging remark in the entire Quran to which even the most jaundiced among the Christians can tak e exception.

"EESA" LATINISED TO JESUS

The Holy Quran refers to Jesus as "Eesa", and this name is used more times than any other title, because this was his "Christian"1 name. Actually, his proper name was "Eesa" (Arabic), or "Esau". (Hebrew); classical "Yeheshua", which the Christian nations of the West Latinised as Jesus. Neither the "J" nor the second "s" in the name Jesus is to be found in the original tongue - they are not found in the Semitic languages. The word is very simply - "E S A U" - a very common Jewish name, used more than sixty times in the very first booklet aloneof the Bible, in the part called "Genesis". There was at least one "Jesus" sitting on the "bench" at the trial of Jesus before the Sanhedrin. Josephus the Jewish historian mentions some twenty five Jesus' in his "Book of Antiquities". The New Testament speaks of "Bar-Jesus"- a magician and a sorcerer, a false prophet (Act 13:6); and also "Jesus-Justus" - a Christian missionary, a contemporary of Paul (Colossians 4:11). These are distinct from Jesus, the son of Mary. Transforming "Esau" to (J)esu(s) - Jesus - makes it unique. This unique (?) name has gone out of currency among the Jews and the Christians from the 2nd century after Christ. Among the Jews, because it came to be the proper name of their God(?) - their God incarnate. The Muslim will not hesitate to name his son - "Eesa" - because it is an honoured name, the name of a righteous servant of the Lord.

MANY REFERENCES

At the end of the most popular translation of the Holy Quran in English, i.e. by A.Yusuf Ali, there is a very comprehensive index. While browsing through, we will discover, on page 1837, i.e.

Jesus, a rightenous prophet, vi.85;
birth, iii. 45:47; xix. 22-33;
apostle to Israel, iii. 49-51;
disciples, iii. 52-53; v.114-118
taken up, iii. 55-58; iv.157-159;
like Adam, iii.59;
not crucified, iv.157;
no more than apostle, iv.171; v.78;
xliii 59, 63-64;
not God, v.19,75;
sent with Gospel, v.49;
not son of God, ix.30;
Message and miracles, v.113; xix.30-33;
prays for Table of viands, v.117;
taught no false worship, v.119-121;
disciples declare themselves Muslims, v.114;
mission limited, n.1861 to xiii.38;
followers have compassion and mercy, lvii.27:
disciples as God's helpers, lxi.14;
as a Sign, xxiii. 50; xliii.61;
prophesied Ahmad, lxi.6.

---------------------------------

Who's faith (Islam or Judaism) is a threat to the tenents of Christianity?

[Mediocrates]

Jesus is a bowlderized Latinate of the original Aramaic form of Joshua or if you prefer Y' Shu'a - You see the Latinates a lot because all extant early Torahs have been at some point double translated - into Greek and back into Hebrew. Sometimes via Latin since that was the lingua franca at the time.

You DO know that parts of the Torah are not Hebrew at all, don't you? The Kaddish is Aramaic for example. The names of the books are Greek and many of the place names are Egyptian, Eblaite, Canaanite, Babylonian and Assyrian. That old salt about Esau I've seen before - Perhaps you neglected to talk about Is(h)mael which is where the allusion comes from.

Better hit the books dude !!!

[Ezra]

Mr. Evolution,

First of all you have to understand the social and military situation at which Islam has started in to understand what is it all about. At the start of Islam, most of the Arabian Gulf area was occupied by Christians (Nestorians with Waraqa Bin Nofel as the Bishop of Mecca. By the way, Waraqa is Mohammad's uncle), Jewish (mostly in El-Medina), and infidels (mostly in Mecca where Muhammad started his plan of Islam).

At the start of Islam, the main job of Muhammad (who doesn't have any supporters yet) is to avoid having enemies from all parties. Hence, it was very essential that he keeps good relation with Jewish and Christians (who were majority) to keep them in his side against the Mecca people, and in the same time to ensure a safe place to escape to (i.e. Medina) in case the Meccians started attacking him.

That's why you find all the verses in Qoruan (which Muhammad with the assistant of his uncle wrote) before escaping to Medina (which called Al-Hegra or the immigration) says a very nice things about Christians and Jewish and don't try to attack them by anyway. This called (El-sewar Al-makeyya, meaning the verses of Mecca).

After Muhammad escaped to Medina, he continued writing nice stuff about Christians and Jewish since he was between them and they were the people who protect him. After a while when he started having a big number of supporters and army, he throw all Jewish out of the Medina and started the verses of Qoruan that talks about hating Jewish. Next, he started wars with Christians until he defeated them and had the whole Medina for himself. At this point of Qoruan, you will find the NUMEROUS verses that attacks both Christians and Jewish and talks about Jihad and killing.

(… to be continued)

[Ezra]

Now, you wondered why didn't the Christian guy said anything nice about Muhammad?

What do you want him to say?

That he married a 9 years old girl?
That he went through over 100 wars?
That he married over 26 women?
That he used to have 1/5 of the war money women for himself?

Guess what! These are all facts from Islamic sources that they don't deny.. And here are their replies to it,


So what he married a 9 years old girl?
So what he went through 100 wars? That was Jihad by the order of Allah.
So what he married over 26 women? He was helping them in life.
So what he used to have 1/5 of the war money and women? That was Allah orders in Qoruan!

So, what did you want the Christian to say about Muhammad?

[NewsGuy]

Ezra is back!

Welcome. Haven't seen you in a log time. How've you been?

:)

[Morpheus]

Just a joke, don't take it too personal, ok?

THREE PROOFS


Three proofs that Jesus was Jewish:
1 He went into his fathers business
2 He lived at home until the age of 33
3 He was sure that his mother was a virgin
and his mother was sure that he was God
Three proofs that Jesus was Irish:
1 He never got married
2 He never had a steady job
3 His last request was for a drink
Three proofs that Jesus was Mexican:
1 His first name was Jesus
2 He was always in trouble with the law
3 His mother did not know who his father was
Three proofs that Jesus was Italian:
1 He talked with his hands
2 He had wine with every meal
3 He didn't disrespect prostitutes
Three proofs that Jesus was black:
1 He called everyone brother
2 He had no permanent address
3 Nobody would hire him
Three proofs that Jesus was a Californian:
1 He never cut his hair
2 He walked around barefoot
3 He invented a new religion

[Ezra]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Ezra is back!

Welcome. Haven't seen you in a log time. How've you been?

:)


Thanks NewsGuy! I missed you too! :D

[cerulean]

Ezra,

I'd be interested in your input on the issue of Christian Arabs in Bethlehem (we're currently discussing it in the Palestinians Revolt Under Arafat's Leadership thread).

[Justicator]

THAT HE WAS BORN MIRACULOUSLY - WITHOUT ANY MALE INTERVENTION (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today),

Which modern-day Christians believe that ? Seriously thats news to me but hey we have all kinds of wacko cults that claim to be Christian .

[Simon]

"I think it can be said from this descussion that there is, at present, somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is on the Christian side for the founder of Isl am."



How could the Christian side accomodate Islam when Christianity preceded Islam by 700 years?? What, you think Jesus was clairvoyant??

Also, there is an important philosophical difference between the way Christians and muslims treat Jesus.

Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God.

Muslims believe him to be merely a prophet.

Huge difference.

Ever consider comparing the lifestyle, acts or deeds of Jesus vs Mohammad??

[Justicator]

"I think it can be said from this descussion that there is, at present, somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is on the Christian side for the founder of Isl am."

No we firmly believe that Mohhamad could have become a Christian himself how much more accommodation need there be ?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Justicator
THAT HE WAS BORN MIRACULOUSLY - WITHOUT ANY MALE INTERVENTION (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today),

Which modern-day Christians believe that ? Seriously thats news to me but hey we have all kinds of wacko cults that claim to be Christian .


I never heard about any "normal" christian who doesn't believe that Jesus wasn't born miraculously!

[christian]

Originally posted by Justicator
THAT HE WAS BORN MIRACULOUSLY - WITHOUT ANY MALE INTERVENTION (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today),

Which modern-day Christians believe that ? Seriously thats news to me but hey we have all kinds of wacko cults that claim to be Christian .

What is your point? Judaism is the only rightful religion. Christiainty is a cult.

:mad:

[Ezra]

Originally posted by christian


What is your point? Judaism is the only rightful religion. Christiainty is a cult.

:mad:

Why do I have the feeling that we are starting to act as Muslims who dispute others beliefs and bless the killing of those who are different from them?

Please guys lets behave as well civilized Jewish or Christians.

[NewsGuy]

I think that Justicator might have some interesting feedback on this one. There are many members here (more than people might realize) who are not Jewish.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
There are many members here who are not Jewish.


Not Yet!!!! :) :)

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Adonis


you make it seem like christians and jews have been living hand to hand and loving each other, think again, they have been hate and war since day 1, christians have tortured jews in old days, slaughtered them, please dont ignore our history, Christianty has been just as harsh as any other religion ie Islam to us, but I would go as far in saying that in olden days the muslims where better to us than the christians, dont make it seem like all is ok, when all religions have caused tensions between each other,

Hold on, hold on. Before going any further, who is "us" that you are talking about? Just as a reminder, weren't you who wrote this message:

Originally posted by Adonis
im not muslim, or jewish, or christian, no religion is angelic, if any religion is exposed to another there will be hate, bigotry and killing, all religions do that, not just one
but i tend to side a little with muslims cause people think that all the hate and violence between religions is because of them, when in fact all religions have caused tension and killings lets look at history,

I guess we all need an explanation for this if you want to stay respected as a honest person in this forum.
Am I the only person here who smells another Muslim trying to start war between Christians and Jewish around?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Adonis
at present the jews and muslims are not getting along, but if you look at history the christians have not treated the jews well, you know that, we all know that

That is fundamentally correct. So? This year it's your turn to pogrom.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Adonis
hmmm ill say it again i sympathize with the muslims and even the christians and even the jews but mostly with muslims,

at present the jews and muslims are not getting along, but if you look at history the christians have not treated the jews well, you know that, we all know that, so dont make it seem like christians and jews have been living in harmony since the beginning of time,

THIS REPLY DIDN'T SOLVE THE VERY APPARENT DECEIVING OF YOUR ID MR. ADONIS.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Adonis


WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,

not even one of those facts are correct

you want to talk alot of negative things about islam and its followers, i dont know why I sense jealously, but if your gonna attck it atleast tell the truth, no religion deserves to get abused
http://www.usf.edu.pk/wives.html

HAAAAA????
ARE YOU SURE THESE ARE WRONG????
ARE YOU POSITIVELY SURE THESE ARE WRONG????
IF IT WAS PROVED BY A EXTREMELY CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT IT'S TRUE, WOULD YOU ADMIT THAT MOHAMMAD WAS SEX-ADDICTED?
IF IT WAS PROVED BY A EXTREMELY CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT IT'S TRUE, WOULD YOU CONVERT FROM ISLAM?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Adonis


WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,

not even one of those facts are correct

you want to talk alot of negative things about islam and its followers, i dont know why I sense jealously, but if your gonna attck it atleast tell the truth, no religion deserves to get abused
http://www.usf.edu.pk/wives.html


PEDOPHILIA : [NL] (1906): sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIH BUKHARI, 5:235] and he wasted no time in realizing his dreams, inspite of the fact that object of his dreams was a mere child.Perhaps you want to assume that it is "normal" for a 50+ year old man to dream of marrying a 4-5 old child, and then ACTUALLY ask for her hand at 6?
Is it normal for an oversexed old man (Muhammad had over 9 wives and concubines) to dream of a union with a 4-5 year old girl?
Muhammad ( SAW ) was basically oversexed, his sexual relationship with Aisha is a special case, which fits his strong need for a larger latitude to satisfy his sexual urge, as is witnessed by:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven)."
When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand. Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIH BUKHAR I7:18].
What happened to " there is no compulsion in matters of religion ?" Anyway what compulsion did Muhhammad need being a prophet his word was law, he restricted men to only four wives when he himself had more than four, that was a convenient exemption for Muhhammad.
So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha was 9, the marriage was consumed. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88] .
The 3 year waiting period probably had to do with the fact that at that time Aisha had contracted some disease, whereby she, temporarily lost her hair. Aisha was then socially and psychologically still a child as is evidenced by the fact that she was still given to her toys, she was unaware of what was happening around her, and her playmates behave as would the children at present times [Sahih Bukhari 8:151,5:234].
Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148, 3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the "mother of believers".
If you are wandering, yes, the relationship was pedophilic.
Unfortunately we do not have any video recordings of such events. Neither can we expect that there would be any explicit statements regarding this. In any case it is certain that she had NOT reached puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house, which in itself, contrary to the prevailing social norms, is a tacit implication that he may indulge in whatever fantasies he may have had when he asked for Aisha's hand. And Muhammad did have fantasies.
Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, BUT the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

What was Aisha's age? I have heard other figures ... (A question also known as: How many of your own sources will you deny ? )
All the relevant sources (Bukhari, Ibn Hisham, Tabari, Ibn al-Athir, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Hanbal, etc.) maintain that Aisha was bethroted to Mohammed when she was 6, and the marraige was consummated 3 years later.
'Mahommad - The Word of Allah' written by Anne-Marie Delcambre. (Anne-Marie Delcambre has a doctorate in 'Islamology', and taught Islamic Civilisation at the Saint Joseph University of Beyrouth in Lebanon). On page 69, it says that he was married to her when she was 9 years old.
Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623 or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2. Between 621 and 623 Asiha is said to have contracted a disease whereby she temporarily lost her hair. (Ref 1)
She could not have been more than 10 years when she went to live in Muhammad's house. The fact that she took her toys with her to her new home indicates that she was psychologically and socially still a child. And the fact that she was allowed to play with DOLLS indicates that she had NOT reached puberty by this time. ("The playing with the dolls and similar images was(is) forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty."Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13). Besides, there is also Aisha's own statement which implies that she had NOT reached puberty when she moved into Muhammad's house[Sahih Bukhari 7.163]. I am sure she would have been able to recount accurately as to when and where she got her first menses. Most girls do remember such events rather accurately. (Refs 2)
What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when he wanted to marry his step son's wife. A tactic which Aisha later came to understand as fraud, as in: "Aisha said: O Allah's Apostle! I do not see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." (Refs 2)
Muhammad wasted no time in realizing what he had been dreaming. Already when Aisha was 6 "The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." Here it does not seem that Abu Bakr consented to the marriage wholeheartedly.
REFERENCES (1) Les femmes du Prophete Prof.Magali Morsi, Professor of History, University of Muhammed V, Rabat, Morocco.
(2) Shahih Bukhari: [1.229] [1.230] [1.231] [1.232] [1.233] [1.258] [1.263] [1.267] [1.270] [1.294] [1.296] [1.298] [1.299] [3.148] [3.149] [3.150] [3.853] [4.736] [5.235] [5.236] [5.731] [7.14] [7.15] [7.57] [7.48] [7.57] [7.64] [7.65] [7.86] [7.88] [7.90] [7.144] [7.163] [8.151] [9.139] [9.140]
* "And if a woman is sexually mature I see nothing wrong with her marriage in general, with a man of any age... "- A muslim.
For those Muslims who approve of the above statement ( and hold similar views ): Would you let your daughters go through this ?

[B][All the references used are Islamic Authenticated references. If you want to see the originals, I'll be more than happy to scan them from you. A larger list will come soon]

[Ezra]

…Oh, and by the way, you are the first Muslim I've ever seen deny this! Maybe they differ in justification but they never deny that! They don't see it as a wrong thing to do since it was an order from God!

[Mediocrates]

Your lack of understanding is astonishing. All I can suggest is to read Torah, with assistance, in English carefully using an annotated edition.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ad0nis
SA 3:7 (KJV) "Wherefore hast thou gone in unto [a euphemism for sexual intercourse] my fathers concubine?"

SA 5:13, 20:3 David had many concubines.

SA 6:14, 16, 20-23 David dances and exposes himself to his maids. (His wife, Michal rebukes him for having done so, and as a consequence she is made barren.)

SA 12:11-12 The Lord is going to punish David for his sin by taking his wives and causing his neighbor to have sexual relations with them in public.

SA 13:1-14 King David's son, Amnon, rapes his half-sister, Tamar.

SA 16:22 Absalom "went into his father's concubines" in the sight of all Israel.

KI 1:1-4 David was old, and although covered with clothes, could not get warm. A beautiful, young virgin is brought in to be his concubine and nurse. But alas, he was so old and infirm that he "knew her not."

KI 11:3 Solomon (the wisest man ever) had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

KI 18:27, IS 36:12 (KJV) "... eat their own dung and drink their own piss." (Note: Although correctly translated according to the oldest Hebrew manuscripts, piss and pisseth have been re-translated to something more "godly" in all versions since the KJV.)

CH 11:21 Rehoboam had eighteen wives and sixty concubines.

ES 2:2-17 King Ahasuerus holds a sexual contest with "fair young virgins" to pick a new Queen (after having been spurned by Queen Vashti).

PR 5:19 (KJV) "... Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love."

SO 1:13 "My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh, that lies between my breasts."

SO 2:3 "I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."

SO 2:6, 8:3 "His left hand is under my head, and his right hand embraces me."

SO 2:16, 6:3 "My lover is mine and I am his. He browses among the lilies."

SO 4:5, 7:3 "Your two breasts are like two fawns ...."

SO 5:4 (KJV) "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him."

SO 7:1-2 "... the joints of your thighs are like jewels ...."

SO 7:7-9 "You are stately as a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its branches. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine ...."

SO 8:10 "... and my breasts were like towers."

IS 3:17 "The Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will uncover their secret parts."

IS 13:15 "Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 20:2-4 The Lord himself apparently commands his servant to go naked for three years.

IS 57:8 "Behind your doors and doorpost ... you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love, and you looked on their nakedness."

LA 4:21 "... thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked."

EZ 4:12 (KJV) "And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread ...."

EZ 4:15 (KJV) "... I have given thee cows dung for mans dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith."

EZ 16:7 "... You grew up and ... arrived at full maidenhood; your breasts were formed ... yet you were naked and bare."

EZ 16:8 "Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine."

EZ 16:22 "... you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood."

EZ 16:36 "... your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers ...."

EZ 16:37 "Therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness."

EZ 16:39 "... they will strip you of your clothes, ... and leave you naked and bare."

EZ 23:3 "They played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there were their breasts fondled and their virgin bosoms handled." Or, as the KJV puts it: "they bruised the teats of their virginity."

EZ 23:8 (KJV) "... in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her."

EZ 23:10 "They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword."

EZ 23:17 (KJV) "And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them ...."

EZ 23:18 (KJV) "So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: ...."

EZ 23:20-21 (RSV) "Yet she increased her harlotry ... and doted on her paramours there, whose members [i.e., sexual organs] were like those of asses and whose issue was like that of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts."

EZ 23:29 (KJV) "... and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms."

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 1:2 (KJV) "And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom.'"

HO 2:2 (KJV) "... let her ... put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts ...."

HO 2:3 "Otherwise I will strip her naked and make her as bare as the day she was born."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

AM 2:16 " Even the bravest warriors will flee naked on that day,' declares the Lord."

MI 1:8 "I will go stripped and naked."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

NA 3:5 " I am against you,' says the Lord ... , and will lift up your skirts over your face; I will show the nations your nakedness and kingdoms your shame.'"

HA 2:15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies."

MA 2:3 The Lord says that he will spread dung upon the faces of the priests.

MK 14:51-52 A young man discards his clothing and flees naked.

JN 21:7 (KJV) "Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fishers coat unto him, for he was naked, and did cast himself into the sea."

AC 19:13-16 Seven Jewish exorcists are overpowered by a man with a demon and flee naked and wounded.

RE 16:15 When Jesus comes again, he will come like a thief in the night so that those who do not have their clothes [on] will go naked and be shamefully exposed.

RE 17:16 "They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."



TALK ABOUT A PERVESE RELIGION

Hmm lets calm down first, erza and adonis your too immature, talk like adults

[Teacake]

Adonis,

for one thing, the jesus story is a fairytale. Hence, no such person as mary. But according to the fairytale, she was a young woman, not a child. And, according to the fairytale, she did not have intercourse, a divine spirit in the form of a dove entered her in a non sexual way.

Where are you finding all these bogus storys about talmud anyhow? You are really a very ignorant chap. WHich is proven by the fact that you believe all the you are posting.

As for a Jew saving a non-Jews life during the sabbath... saving anyone's life, Jew, non-Jew AS WELL AS an animal is more important than keeping sabbath. Saving a life does not fall into the work or toil catagory. You are a trouble maker bent on anti-Jewish slander.

What does NIV stand for? nazi invented version?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Teacake
What does NIV stand for? nazi invented version?

lol, I think he was being "more" anti christian than anti-jewish,

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ad0nis
What about Mary, Jesus' Mother ? How old was she when she got pregnant?

Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. the case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETHROED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was "BETHROED" to Joseph. No one would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".


According to the Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church: "Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus. Joseph, Mary's Husband is believed to be around 36. Mary was only 13 when she married Joseph. When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."

According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary was was 12 years old when she became impregnated.

So if I want to be as silly and ridiculous as many of the Christians, I would respond to them by saying that Mary was psychologically and emotionally devastated for getting pregnant at a very young age. And speaking of "child molesting", since most Christians believe that Jesus is the Creator of this universe, then why did GOD allow himself to enter life through a 12-year old young girl's vagina?


Good point!!, but the christians believe in it, who are we to disagree.

[Ezra]

So, Adonis, do we agree that Muhammad slept with a 9 yrs-old girl? Do we agree that you lied the first time?

Please say "Yes" and we'll continue the discussion!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
So, Adonis, do we agree that Muhammad slept with a 9 yrs-old girl? Do we agree that you lied the first time?

Please say "Yes" and we'll continue the discussion!

for your info i think adonis is BANNED, so he really cant reply to you, but read what wrote above, i quoted it, shocking I must say! and what do you have to say about jesus and the fairtale story, arent you catholic or a person that is christian??

________________________________________________

LONG LIVE JEWISH ISRAEL

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman


for your info i think adonis is BANNED, so he really cant reply to you, but read what wrote above, i quoted it, shocking I must say! and what do you have to say about jesus and the fairtale story, arent you catholic or a person that is christian??

________________________________________________

LONG LIVE JEWISH ISRAEL

Regardless of what I believe in. It's more important to me to prove to everyone that he was a typical Muslim liar than anything else. He first denied that Muhammad had sex with 9 years old girl, and ended up saying that fine he did it, but Mary also.. bla .. bla .. bla..

The proving of the concept of continuous lying of Muslims is more important than anything else I want to prove.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra


Regardless of what I believe in. It's more important to me to prove to everyone that he was a typical Muslim liar than anything else. He first denied that Muhammad had sex with 9 years old girl, and ended up saying that fine he did it, but Mary also.. bla .. bla .. bla..

The proving of the concept of continuous lying of Muslims is more important than anything else I want to prove.

ive researched this topic alot, and i am very interseted in the concepts of when people married and had kids back in biblical times, what adonis siad, which is mary concived jesus when she was 12 - 14 is true in many armaic and hebrew sources, some say she was a young adult some say a young girl, and that mary's husband joseph was about 20 to 30 years older than her.

and about the islamic one, mohamed is said to have "engaged" aisha when she was 9 in some hebrew and arabic books, but some claim she was 16, so he might be lying of might be telling the truth no one knows. and i will stress the fact I get my information from Hebrew sources and not muslim or christianian sources who are bais towards each other.

That being said Christianity and Islam were copied from the Judaism value and concept and made to fit people so I really dont care what you two are arguing about, :D

[Mediocrates]

I would seriously doubt whether it was legally possible to marry a girl (or a boy) under the age of B'nai Mitzvah. For Girls that is (technically) 12 and for boys, 13. I believe this would also apply to 'concubines' e.g. 2nd wives and higher. In Judaism the wife gets and holds a contract called a Ketubah which lays out stipulations of the marriage. The Ketubah remains in the wife's possession until divorce whereby the wife must get a Get from the husband. The husband must consent to the Get and upon that both parties are free to remarry.

This is not modern law but dates back to Talmudic times.

[jcsd]

Here is an interesting and topical article about Cnrist in Islam

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/493436.stm

[RichardP]

Originally posted by jcsd
Here is an interesting and topical article about Cnrist in Islam

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/493436.stm

Great debate... I don't know if I should step into this mine-field...
but what the hell, my legs are next to useless anyway!

Being raised a "christian", thus indoctrinated with the "fairy tale"
version of the "virgin birth" etc. etc. I have found myself in and out of spiritual dilemmas. I found the anti-Semitism, albeit subtle, too much to handle. Along with that there were turf wars between Catholics and Protestants - with a dose of anti-Semitic propaganda tossed in to make it more volatile! I chose to give up the ghost, holy or not!

I am not an expert, nor do I profess to be: Judaism is more than a religion, and this I believe p***es-off many of other "faiths"!
As hard as Christianity, Islam and others attempted to eradicate
Jews, they could never succeed. They will never succeed. How many attempts failed to abort the birth of the State of Israel? Someone more learned than I, can answer that question.

The attempts to destroy Israel and her citizens have been ongoing to this day and tomorrows. Yes, there are "fairy-tales", that said there are true "miracles". The State of Israel is evidence of this... "miracle".

There are "Christians" who now "see" the truth; it's about time. However, Islam will never rest. They have one goal and that is the destruction of Jews and Israel. As hard as they may try they will fail and fail miserably.

The smug twits of the EU, Canada etc. should not fail to realise that, they too are part of the hate-agenda of the Islamic-cause!

[Communication]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Not Yet!!!! :) :)

Ha! I knew you were a Chabadnik. Now that's proof!

[Mediocrates]

Ah: I am unmasked !! ;)

(~sort of~)

[timB]

Originally posted by RichardP
Being raised a "christian", thus indoctrinated with the "fairy tale"
version of the "virgin birth" etc. etc. I have found myself in and out of spiritual dilemmas. I found the anti-Semitism, albeit subtle, too much to handle. Along with that there were turf wars between Catholics and Protestants - with a dose of anti-Semitic propaganda tossed in to make it more volatile! I chose to give up the ghost, holy or not!

I am not an expert, nor do I profess to be: Judaism is more than a religion, and this I believe p***es-off many of other "faiths"!
As hard as Christianity, Islam and others attempted to eradicate
Jews, they could never succeed. They will never succeed. How many attempts failed to abort the birth of the State of Israel? Someone more learned than I, can answer that question.

The attempts to destroy Israel and her citizens have been ongoing to this day and tomorrows. Yes, there are "fairy-tales", that said there are true "miracles". The State of Israel is evidence of this... "miracle".

There are "Christians" who now "see" the truth; it's about time. However, Islam will never rest. They have one goal and that is the destruction of Jews and Israel. As hard as they may try they will fail and fail miserably.

The smug twits of the EU, Canada etc. should not fail to realise that, they too are part of the hate-agenda of the Islamic-cause!

Perhaps those who can accept no faith but their own are the ones who will in the end be the most wrong.
I wasn't there 2000 years ago so I can't tell you for sure what Jesus did or didn't do, however, I do believe that He is the Messiah, but after it is all said and done, I truly don't think that someone is going to be standing in front of the pearly gates grading me on how many of my beliefs were "correct", rather I think it would please God a whole lot more to know that I believed in something greater than myself and that that belief guided my actions to benefit mankind. Who then can say that your faith is wrong and mine is right when both faiths, properly observed lead the faithful to the same actions. At its most basic level, it is just a way to make the accuser feel better about himself for choosing the "right" religion.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by timB
Perhaps those who can accept no faith but their own are the ones who will in the end be the most wrong.
I wasn't there 2000 years ago so I can't tell you for sure what Jesus did or didn't do, however, I do believe that He is the Messiah, but after it is all said and done, I truly don't think that someone is going to be standing in front of the pearly gates grading me on how many of my beliefs were "correct", rather I think it would please God a whole lot more to know that I believed in something greater than myself and that that belief guided my actions to benefit mankind. Who then can say that your faith is wrong and mine is right when both faiths, properly observed lead the faithful to the same actions. At its most basic level, it is just a way to make the accuser feel better about himself for choosing the "right" religion.

I am not a non-believer... it is what we, mankind has perpetrated in the name of religion that deters me at times. That said, there are many who do good deeds in the name of their faith. But those for whom their faith is no more than an excuse to murder others because their beliefs are different, make me sick! It may have always been thus, but it is time for us to put these difference aside. It will never happen!
The Catholic church is slowly coming to terms with its anti-Semitism; Islam will never do so... its goal is the destruction of Israel and all Jews.

Keep the faith -

[timB]

Originally posted by RichardP
I am not a non-believer... it is what we, mankind has perpetrated in the name of religion that deters me at times. That said, there are many who do good deeds in the name of their faith. But those for whom their faith is no more than an excuse to murder others because their beliefs are different, make me sick! It may have always been thus, but it is time for us to put these difference aside. It will never happen!
The Catholic church is slowly coming to terms with its anti-Semitism; Islam will never do so... its goal is the destruction of Israel and all Jews.

Keep the faith -

"In the name of religion" is the operative phrase there. Many people have justified many things by saying that it's God's will because as a means to an end its kind of hard to argue with God's will. It wasn't their religion which forced them to do it, it was their own choice which they justified in that way. Furthermore, people need to realize that one radical Imam, Priest, Rabbi, whatever does not speak for the whole of his respective religion.

[Mediocrates]

Your quote is generally attributed to Pope Paul VI, not St. Paul, yes?

I'll give you another:


"You don't sign peace treaties with your friends"

- Shimon Peres.

(I love that one)

[RichardP]

Originally posted by timB
"In the name of religion" is the operative phrase there. Many people have justified many things by saying that it's God's will because as a means to an end its kind of hard to argue with God's will. It wasn't their religion which forced them to do it, it was their own choice which they justified in that way. Furthermore, people need to realize that one radical Imam, Priest, Rabbi, whatever does not speak for the whole of his respective religion.

True, many justify their actions/reactions to justify their own deeds and/or prejudice. However, indoctrination is or can be a form of "brainwashing" - One priest, Rabbi or radical Imam can make a difference... creating a "true believer" out of a "non-believer". We have witnessed throughout history; the 20th possibly exemplifies it the best!

[timB]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Your quote is generally attributed to Pope Paul VI, not St. Paul, yes?

I'll give you another:


"You don't sign peace treaties with your friends"

- Shimon Peres.

(I love that one)

I did a google and I guess so, but I could've sworn that I read it in one of the Pauline Epistles, maybe not. Thanks for the info.

[timB]

Originally posted by RichardP
True, many justify their actions/reactions to justify their own deeds and/or prejudice. However, indoctrination is or can be a form of "brainwashing" - One priest, Rabbi or radical Imam can make a difference... creating a "true believer" out of a "non-believer". We have witnessed throughout history; the 20th possibly exemplifies it the best!
I agree, one radical can cause a great deal of harm, but in the end he is still only one man to be counted against the millions or billions of other believers

[RichardP]

Originally posted by timB
I agree, one radical can cause a great deal of harm, but in the end he is still only one man to be counted against the millions or billions of other believers

They are a rarity, some may say predestined. One man who can and does lead at times millions into war, a faith, or a cause. Seemingly he transcends us wee mortals - though in all likelyhood he does not... but a multitude do and follow this leader or leader to the end of the earth. They are not all professed demagogues as some definitely believed they were. Many made a positive contribution to their followers... such as Moses, and the rest is history and you know who they were. Be rest assured one is not or will be Bush, but he too is not alone in that distinction!

[abu afak]

If one becomes a 'radical Jew' (whatever that is),
he is no threat to the world at large.

If one becomes a Radical Muslim, he is.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by abu afak
If one becomes a 'radical Jew' (whatever that is),
he is no threat to the world at large.

If one becomes a Radical Muslim, he is.

I don't think I mentioned radical - Christian, Jew, Muslim or golf pro, but let's for the sake of argument say, I did! Luther was a radical - a man who indoctrinated his followers with anti-Semitism which was far reaching like a plague. They come in all shapes, sizes, colours and yes, religions. Does that indicate that every Catholic is/was a Jew-hater... hell, I was a Protestant... and got the kicked out of me from both sides. The Catholics because I was Protestant and the Protestants because I wouldn't curse or spit on the nuns! Figuring they were psychos, I went my own way! I was a kid... and decided I was responsible for my own action or reaction... not some preacher who hated Jews, or Catholics... or whatever.
Be reminded my parents didn't send me to summer camp where you learned to make explosives and blow up innocent folks, for no other reason than they are of a different religion, colour or creed.
No one has a monopoly on hate mongering, but some seem to get orgasmic pleasure slaughtering innocent people! Or they may be gutless and don't want to put their b - lls on the line and say,
"Enough is enough... this is wrong!"
The IRA are psyco a-hole who could give a damn about "Republic", or the innocents who got blown away by bombs or bullets! If it all sounds familiar it is meant to; one has to work at tolerance, it's the individuals responsibility. If he/she chooses to go out and slaughter Jews, or whomever... I have no tolerance. They can rot in hell for all I care... they are a waste of flesh and bone.
Abu, you may interpret this in any way you see fit... we are all capable of murder... but most of us decide not too. There is no excuse, whomever you may be. Remember, there is a difference between murder and self-defense. If someone walked into your home with the intent of killing your family you would kill if you had too.
But when one is a perpetrator entering the sanctity of someone elses home or country with the intent to do harm or murder... one deserves what one gets!

[Robby]

I think a religion is only as good as its founder. Muhammad and Jesus really were opposites.

Muhammad was a military general who used a politico-religious form (Koran) to gain power and wealth, and spread his ruling empire. He had 9 wives, obviously Aishah being the most controversial because of her age.

Jesus was never interested in being a political and military leader, but instead was a spiritual leader and teacher who lead a righteous life and sought to help the downtrodden and heal the lame and infirmed. He taught not to keep earthly possesions, but seek spiritual (heavenly) treasures. He never married and all he ever really owned were the clothes on his back.Perhaps the biggest, most important difference is Christians believe Jesus is the risen Christ, while Muslims think he was just a prophet.

There is so much more I can say about both, but I'll let it go at that.

[Communication]

No Joshua= no Jewish people. No Jewish people= no Jesus.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Communication
No Joshua= no Jewish people. No Jewish people= no Jesus.

No Islam= no terrorism (not totally) Someone in the forum said this already... the blackout has fried my thoughts momentarily. Sorry, change of topic.

[timB]

Originally posted by Communication
No Joshua= no Jewish people. No Jewish people= no Jesus.

So what, no one denies that Jesus was Jewish or that Christianity grew from Judaism.

[Communication]

Originally posted by timB
So what, no one denies that Jesus was Jewish or that Christianity grew from Judaism.

You are missing the point. If it were not for the Jewish warrior Joshua, the cowardly hebrews would have returned to a life of slavery in Egypt. At least that's the account from the torah. They creid out, "If only we had died in Egypt or in the desert!" They lamented that it would have been better in Egypt. They became so distraught that they wailed, "We should choose leaders and go back to Egypt." They prefered slavery. So what did God do? He kept them wandering in the desert until the generation that knew slavery died off. I sometimes wonder if God is doing the same thing right now.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by timB
So what, no one denies that Jesus was Jewish or that Christianity grew from Judaism.

Who would want to deny it? Gibson?! Nah, he is aware of it as well!!

[Robby]

On the term "Messiah" which also means "Savior" or "Christ".

Many Jews believe the "Messiah" is yet to come and will be a political leader who will build the temple, fight Israel's wars, bring back exiles, put an end to evil and usher in a peaceful world to come.

Christians and some Jews believe the "Messiah" was Jesus. Since "Messiah" also means "Savior" or "Christ", it is basically said that Jesus gave up his own life to save everyone from death (he died in our place ). Therefore, if a person were to believe Jesus had done this, then they'd be saved from death and have eternal life.

The Koran also calls Jesus the Messiah, but from what I understand, it is not a proclamation of Jesus as THE Messiah, but a recognition that Christians call him that. Koran verse 5:75, "The Messiah, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle: other apostles passed away before him. His mother was a saintly woman. They both ate earthly food."

[Communication]

Originally posted by Robby
On the term "Messiah" which also means "Savior" or "Christ".

Many Jews believe the "Messiah" is yet to come and will be a political leader who will build the temple, fight Israel's wars, bring back exiles, put an end to evil and usher in a peaceful world to come.

Christians and some Jews believe the "Messiah" was Jesus. Since "Messiah" also means "Savior" or "Christ", it is basically said that Jesus gave up his own life to save everyone from death (he died in our place ). Therefore, if a person were to believe Jesus had done this, then they'd be saved from death and have eternal life.

The Koran also calls Jesus the Messiah, but from what I understand, it is not a proclamation of Jesus as THE Messiah, but a recognition that Christians call him that. Koran verse 5:75, "The Messiah, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle: other apostles passed away before him. His mother was a saintly woman. They both ate earthly food."


I understand the spiritual interpretation of Jesus dying in our place, and that it is an essential component of Christian doctrine. But there is a little more to it than that, namely that Jesus was the only son of God, which is a break from Jewish tradition that claims that we are all children of God and that Jesus was God made flesh, whereas Jews believe that we were created in God's image. The diety aspect of Jesus is what prevents Judiasm and Christianity from every being fullly reconciled. I can accept that the historical figure Jesus as the story is told died in place of other Jews, but he wasn't the only Jew to die on a cross. Likewise, millions of other Jews, over a million of them children, died for the sins of anti-semitism in the holocaust. I have never seen a portrait of a single holocaust Jew pinned with the star of david up on a cross. But when I see pictures of holocaust victims, that's the image that I see.

[Robby]

Originally posted by Communication
Christian doctrine...Jesus was the only son of God, which is a break from Jewish tradition that claims that we are all children of God and that Jesus was God made flesh, whereas Jews believe that we were created in God's image. [QUOTE]

Let's see if I'm following right, because the Christian belief also is that we were all created in the image of God . While we are created in God's image, Christianity says that sin separates us from God and unless we come to Christ, we are children of the Devil and will receive death. Sin being disobedience to God and first entering our world when Adam the first man disobeyed God. Until we accept Jesus, we are then adopted into the family of God, thus becoming children of God, and our sins are forgiven and we receive eternal life. It may seem inconsequential, but in Christianity the capitalization of the letter "S" in "son of God and "Son of God" makes huge difference in its meaning. The title "Son of God" is different from "'son' of God", because "Son of God" asserts Jesus's divinity, while "sons of God" denotes the relation into which we are brought to God by adoption .

Judaism does not make the same distinction, instead its central belief is that the people of all religions are children of God, and therefore equal before God. All people have God's love, mercy, and help. In particular, Judaism does not require that a person convert to Judaism in order to achieve salvation. The only requirement for that, as understood by Jews, is to be ethical. While Judaism accepts the worth of all people regardless of religion, it also allows people who are not Jewish but who voluntarily wish to join the Jewish people to do so.

Jewish tradition, I would agree, holds Jesus was only human, not the "Messiah" or "Son of God", but a "son of God" in the metaphorical sense in which all humans are "children of God." In the Jewish view, Jesus cannot save souls; only God can. In the Jewish view, Jesus did not rise from the dead. Yes, in the Christian view, Jesus was God in the flesh; therefore, he was raised from the dead and this gives him the power and authority to save souls. In Christianity, salvation does not depend upon being a good person, but upon faith--a belief that Jesus did this for us.


[Quote]The diety aspect of Jesus is what prevents Judiasm and Christianity from every being fullly reconciled. I can accept that the historical figure Jesus as the story is told died in place of other Jews, but he wasn't the only Jew to die on a cross. Likewise, millions of other Jews, over a million of them children, died for the sins of anti-semitism in the holocaust. I have never seen a portrait of a single holocaust Jew pinned with the star of david up on a cross. But when I see pictures of holocaust victims, that's the image that I see.

Sure, the divinity of Jesus is in conflict between the two faiths. Furthermore, on Jesus in comparison to other jews who have died, I think the difference is that according to Christianiy, Jesus was the only one who ever declared divinity who was resurrected from the dead; therefore, he has the power and authority to extend forgiveness and salvation.

Muslims also believe in a God of all humanity (similar to Judaism's everyone's a child of God regardless of religion), though in Islam treatment of non-muslims is not so kind. When it comes to Jesus and "son of God" (a small "s" is used in the Koran), Islam basically denies Jesus's divinity and states it's pantheism and blasphemy for God to have a son. Salvation is based on a combination of Allah's grace and the Muslim's works. On the Day of Judgment, if a Muslim's good works outweigh his bad ones, and if Allah so wills it, he may be forgiven of all his sins and then enter into Paradise. Therefore, Islam is a religion of salvation by works because it combines man's works with Allah's grace.

Generally speaking, there are only two methods of salvation in all the religions of the world: grace and works. As I mentioned before, Judaism is based on good works, but Christianity is a faith of salvation by grace alone.

[Communication]

Perfect!

[thisbox71]

+++ At the end of the debate - "Christianity and Islam" - which appeared on the SABC-TV programme "CROSS (+) QUESTIONS" on Sunday 5th June 1983, the Chairman, Mr.Bill Chalmers commented:

If anyone has a copy of this program or a transcript of it, please contact me at rhill@thisbox.com

Thanks,

Rob

[savvy]

The thing is Muslims believe that Christ was Muslim. All the other prophets from Abraham to Moses, to the very last one were Muslims too. Whereas, both Christians and Jews agree that they were all Jews. Muslims believe that God gave Ishmeal and not Issac, the promised land. Jews and Christians believe the opposite. Both Jews and Christians agree that Israel is God's favourite country, but Muslims believe that Jerusalem basically belongs to Allah and to the Muslims.

[andak01]

Muslim is Arabic for believer. So, yes, we believe that Abraham (SAW) and Moses (SAW) and Jesus (SAW) were believers. If our scripture were in Hebrew, we'd use the Hebrew word. Can anyone tell me what that is?

Jerusalem is thought to be the destination of Muhammad's (SAW) journey to the far mosque. He can't have gone into Al Aqsa, because it didn't exist. But Sunna dictates that any place other than a toilet or a graveyard can be a mosque if believers pray there. My favorite mosque is the sidewalk in Casablanca in front of my father-in-law's appartment.

As for the sacred places, it is people who should attain holiness, not places. Even the rock of the Kaaba is just a rock to many Muslims. We don't become holy by rubbing against holy rocks or holy people, only through our deeds and intentions. But it is human nature to wish to do so.

[Mira]

Muslim is Arabic for believer. So, yes, we believe that Abraham (SAW) and Moses (SAW) and Jesus (SAW) were believers. If our scripture were in Hebrew, we'd use the Hebrew word. Can anyone tell me what that is?
Ma'amin.

Welcome back, andak. What have you been up to lately?

[trs]

I think a religion is only as good as its founder. Muhammad and Jesus really were opposites. ... Jesus was never interested in being a political and military leader, but instead was a spiritual leader and teacher who lead a righteous life and sought to help the downtrodden and heal the lame and infirmed. He taught ... I'd like to offer a somewhat different perspective.

Irrespective of its purported Jewish roots, Christianity is the result of a Gentile movement which owed far more to Paul and those who succeeded him than to any itinerant Hebrew preacher. Its Scriptures were composed and evolved at a time of extreme, and often vitriolic, polemic between 'normative' Judaism and the various eschatological movements that peppered the landscape. This polemic threads its way throughout the Scriptures, both in the form of absurd anti-Pharisee vignettes and in the Passion Narrative itself.

While there is the occassional appeal to hesed and Leviticus 19:18, the logic of the Scriptures is the so-called "replacement theology", i.e., the assertion of a new Covenant at the expense of the old. And this effort played out in an ever increasing campaign against "Judaizing" influences.

As for the interests of 'Jesus', there seems little reason to believe that any of this has been accurately transmitted. The Gospels are, at best, plagiarized 2nd-hand hearsay redacted and culled by the Christian leadership. Even this Scripture paints an uneven and unpleasant picture of an oft-times rude leader who's as likely to kill a fig tree as to act with kindness. And, if the Infancy Gospels are to believed (and there are no grounds other than wishful thinking for deeming them any less credible), the child Jesus was petty and dangerous.

What we do know is the following. Whatever the character and or value of the Jerusalem sect, they were effectively purged before the turn of the century. What little is know of the Ebionites suggest that they they continued on for a while, rejecting Paul and committed to Torah, but were eventually marginalized and disappeared.

We also know that the legacy of that early Christian movement was pervasively antisemitic. So no, Chritianity is not "only as good as its founder". It has thankfully, but only recently, progressed considerably beyond its founders - from Paul to Luther.

[savvy]

While there is the occassional appeal to hesed and Leviticus 19:18, the logic of the Scriptures is the so-called "replacement theology", i.e., the assertion of a new Covenant at the expense of the old. And this effort played out in an ever increasing campaign against "Judaizing" influences.


Actually contrary to what most ppl believe, not all Christians believe in replacement theology. You would be suprised, but the Catholic Church and Evangelical Christians don't believe in it, because the New Testament says that God does not change his mind about the ppl he choses- the jews or breaks his covenats with them, he might turn his back on them if they sin, but he doesn' t break his promises to them. You can find this in Romans Ch. 11, regarding the Jews. The Christian denominations that believe in replacement theology r mostly so- called Liberal Protestant denominations.
Catholics and Evangelicals do believe that while Christians r the spiritual Isreal, the Jews or the Physical Isreal has not been replaced and God still and has not given up on them.

As for anti-semitic verses in the new-testament I don't find any in there.
Whereas I found Jewish sciptures with anti-gentile rethoric. May be, you can explain the following:

When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
-- Sanhedrin 57a

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human.

-- Yebamoth 98a

Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
-- Baba Kamma 113a

[KettleWhistle]

As for anti-semitic verses in the new-testament I don't find any in there.
Whereas I found Jewish sciptures with anti-gentile rethoric. May be, you can explain the following:
You found these scriputures? As in, you read the Talmud and stumbled on them?

Anyhow, these aren't even real scriptures. Talmud is just a collection of rabbinical writings. What Christians know as the Old Testament is the scripture. This web site addresses all of these: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
-- Sanhedrin 57a
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/kill.html

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human.

-- Yebamoth 98a
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/man2.html

Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
-- Baba Kamma 113a
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/man.html

[olkiej]

I feel muslim-hate wich i can understand, because countries like Iaq, Syria, Iran etc. rap-resent islam like ****:p

[Justcurious]

Christ in Islam? Shall we hear about God King Kong in Kongusteniasm next?