WORMS ALERT! European hypocrisy: EU to Build Wall After Blasting Israel's

[Batman]

THE NEW WORLD DISORDER
EU to Build Wall After Blasting Israel's
'European hypocrisy is as rank as it is blatant'

By Aaron Klein
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Tuesday, August 17, 2004
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39998



Just one month after the U.N. and EU launched a furious campaign against Israel's security fence, culminating in the International Court of Justice ruling that the fence is illegal, the EU announced it's planning to build a separation fence of its own, and invited Israel to participate in the construction.

The fence is being built to separate recently added EU members Poland and Hungary from their new neighbors – Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. The EU said the fence is necessary to "prevent the free movement of migrants seeking to enter" EU territory.

Israeli companies that specialize in the construction of fences and security systems will participate in tenders to build hundreds of miles of fences along the EU's new eastern border.

"It's incredible the EU has no problem building a fence just to keep illegal immigrants out, but when the Jewish State builds a security fence as a last resort for the purpose of keeping terrorists out and saving Israeli lives, we are blasted by them and the U.N.," a spokesman for Ariel Sharon told WorldNetDaily. "Makes you think, doesn't it?"

Israel's publicly traded Magal Security Systems, which participated in the construction of the West Bank security fence, is expected to sign a cooperation agreement for building the new EU fence and its attendant command-and-control systems.

The ultimate contract is estimated to be worth several hundred million dollars. Each kilometer of Israel's fence cost $1 million to build. Bases, sophisticated transit points, and observation and command-and-control systems cost $2 million per kilometer.

In July, the U.N.'s high court ruled Israel's security fence, which iscredited with keeping suicide bombers out, violates international law and must be dismantled.

The court, which Israel maintains has no jurisdiction over Israeli matters, ruled "[it] is not convinced that the specific course Israel has chosen for the wall was necessary to attain its security objectives."

A week later, the U.N. General Assembly overwhelmingly adopted a resolution demanding that Israel comply with the world court decision and tear down the security fence. Most European countries voted against Israel.

"European hypocrisy is as rank as it is blatant," Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, told WorldNetDaily. "And the EU wall is not even for security reasons, just economic ones."

[Gilgamesh]

THE NEW WORLD DISORDER
EU to Build Wall After Blasting Israel's
'European hypocrisy is as rank as it is blatant'

By Aaron Klein
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Tuesday, August 17, 2004
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39998

[...]

"European hypocrisy is as rank as it is blatant," Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, told WorldNetDaily. "And the EU wall is not even for security reasons, just economic ones."

For some reason, I am not surprised.

But there is a certain depth went a miss.
Arabs main complaint is the "fence" is built within a territory they claim as "theirs", while official Israel already made it clear, that some of such territory, such as East Jerusalem, will be maintained under Israeli full jurastiction, is annaxed, or will be officialy annaxed, and talking about these territories is a non starter.

To cut a long story short, the so called ICJ court order was made to impose policies on Israel a head of the futuristic "peace talks".

Shaving off the WB from Israel, is an effort to restore Arab "honour" lost in the six days war.

In any way you look at it, foreigners will have to send thier soldiers over here, and soak our sea and sands with their blood before they can force us to do anything about the WB, let alone Jerusalem. The biblical prophet already said something like sham on the one who comes between a lionace and her cubs... . So is G-d and our nation, and so is our nations and Jerusalem.

[RichardP]

So much for the EU’s scruples, unbelievable; but, not shocking when you think of it.

[Semsem]

What a bunch of hypocrites. Glad to read 2 day that parts of Europe will sink by 2080 due to global warming. It's about time.

[Fredo]

What a bunch of hypocrites. Glad to read 2 day that parts of Europe will sink by 2080 due to global warming. It's about time.

nice talk Semsem but after such a sentence , don't complain about other people spreading hatred on this forum .... :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

Isn't it funny that as soon as the Iron Curtain falls, the Eurocrats scramble to build a new one.

[David_in_NYC]

This EU expansion stuff sounds like colonialism to me...

[Semsem]

nice talk Semsem but after such a sentence , don't complain about other people spreading hatred on this forum .... :rolleyes:

Fredo if Europe falls into the ocean France and the EU will no longer be able to cause harm to Israel and spread their filthy antisemitism. At least less countries will vote against Israel at the United Nations or threaten sanctions against Israel. I suppose that you as a French man are also shocked that I am happy the Nazis lost World War 2.

[Semsem]

nice talk Semsem but after such a sentence , don't complain about other people spreading hatred on this forum .... :rolleyes:

Fredo stop playing the "innocent victim." You are'nt. You Europeans murdered Jews for 2,000 years and now have replaced murder into stabbing Israel in the back and damaging the country through diplomatic means; you are no different than your ancestors. Remember Fredo: Jews never murdered Europeans.

[Fredo]

Fredo if Europe falls into the ocean France and the EU will no longer be able to cause harm to Israel and spread their filthy antisemitism.

but why so much hate towards European people ? you are really full of hate and nothing can justify it. You can hate those of us who have harmed you and also our politicians but Europe as a whole NO.
Replace in your hate sentences (not only in this post ) Europe by " Israel " and Europeans by " Jews " and we get the post of a perfect antisemite that i am sure you would be one of the first to insult (and you would be right ) of sub-human and so on...

EUROPEANS AREN'T A BUNCH OF ANTISEMITES blaming Jews for everything !
live with it...

so prove us you are more intelligent than this kind of people... :rolleyes:

I suppose that you as a French man are also shocked that I am happy the Nazis lost World War 2.

What the Hell are you talking about ? you really suppose bad..
that's absolutely ridiculous and i am sure you know it well. Don't be an hypocrite like our politicians you blame for the same sport as you practice here : hypocrisy
except a bunch of idiots ( still really too many ) nobody here regrets the defeat of nazis during WWII... N.O.B.O.D.Y

[Semsem]

[QUOTE=Fredo]but why so much hate towards European people ? you are really full of hate and nothing can justify it. >>

So Fredo nothing can justify why I dislike Europe? My mother had to flee Nazi occupied Europe in 1940 and you have the gaul to say that "nothing can justify my dislike of Europe?" 2,000 years of persecution and "pogroms" my grandmother told me about and you have the cheek to say "nothing can justify my dislike of Europe? Not only did my mother's family have to flee Russia in the 1600s because of the Cossaks but in Romania they were subjected to constant pogroms and for another 200 years followed by the NAZIS in Austria.

And now after all this the EU stabs Israel in the back and you behave as it's no big deal really.

<<You can hate those of us who have harmed you and also our politicians but Europe as a whole NO.<<

Mmmm that's the same as saying well the German NAZIS murdered 6 million Jews but you must not hate Germany as not all Germans are Nazis. So you must not hate Germany but only the German Nazis. You are full of it Fredo.

<<Replace in your hate sentences (not only in this post ) Europe by " Israel " and Europeans by " Jews " and we get the post of a perfect antisemite >>

Stop distorting and twisting history Fredo. Jews NEVER PERSECUTED EUROPEANS Fredo. Jews NEVER MURDERED EUROPEANS Fredo. Jews NEVER COMMITTED GENOCIDE against Europeans Fredo. Israel is not trying to harm Europe diplomatically Fredo. It is Europe that is harming Israel after persecuting them when they lived in Europe in exile for 2,000 years.

It is typical of European antisemites like yourself Fredo to try to portray the Jews as NAZIS. That is exactly what you are doing. Acting competely stupid and denying historical fact as if Jews have no reason to dislike Europe and it is the Jews who are now the NEW NAZIS.

Fredo you are an ANTISEMITE just by your immoral attempt to brush off history.

[Fredo]

Fredo stop playing the "innocent victim." You are'nt. You Europeans murdered Jews for 2,000 years and now have replaced murder into stabbing Israel in the back and damaging the country through diplomatic means; you are no different than your ancestors. Remember Fredo: Jews never murdered Europeans.

i am absolutely not playing the innocent victim ! so stop it please.
don't come back again and again with " You Europeans murdered Jews for 2,000 years" , we are not 2000 years ago or even during WWII and the majority of us has never murdered a single Jew. So find a better reason for hating us...

[Fredo]

YOU ARE TRULLY STUNNING BY YOUR LACK OF HONESTY ,

I can really say that when i read your reply i have been stunned has never before with any of your previous posts ,though it's a real habit for you to shock me with your hatred and lack of honesty.

so here we go:

[QUOTE=Fredo]but why so much hate towards European people ? you are really full of hate and nothing can justify it. >>

So Fredo nothing can justify why I dislike Europe? My mother had to flee Nazi occupied Europe in 1940 and you have the gaul to say that "nothing can justify my dislike of Europe?" 2,000 years of persecution and "pogroms" my grandmother told me about and you have the cheek to say "nothing can justify my dislike of Europe? Not only did my mother's family have to flee Russia in the 1600s because of the Cossaks but in Romania they were subjected to constant pogroms and for another 200 years followed by the NAZIS in Austria.

AS I'VE ALREADY TOLD YA , your hate against those who have done those horrible things is absolutely justified and i understand it well. I think that in your case i would probably feel the same. BUT where i fairly disagree with YOU SEMSEM is your hate towards ALL EUROPEANS with absolutely no distinction between innocent people who have done nothing to harm Jews and those that indeed persecuted them !
Make a distinction between good and bad people. Not all Europeans are Antisemites and Jews persecutors. We have some s like all communities in this world. if you can't get it , that's really a pity for you but live with it.


And now after all this the EU stabs Israel in the back and you behave as it's no big deal really.

As i have already said it on this forum , i disagree with European policy on this matter. It's indeed not fair from our politicians and a shame for them to buy " temporary peace " from terrorists in europe pleasing arabs by diplomaticly bugging (maybe not the most appropriate word) Israel.


<<You can hate those of us who have harmed you and also our politicians but Europe as a whole NO.<<

Mmmm that's the same as saying well the German NAZIS murdered 6 million Jews but you must not hate Germany as not all Germans are Nazis. So you must not hate Germany but only the German Nazis. You are full of it Fredo.


Hate all Germans if you want , if it makes you feel better , that's good for you. Germany of today isn't Germany of the Nazis , now , if you can't get it , that's an other problem. There are many Germans who have nothing against Jews , but if you prefer to ignore all these people and to hate them , what can i do ? you are full of hatred and that's it.

<<Replace in your hate sentences (not only in this post ) Europe by " Israel " and Europeans by " Jews " and we get the post of a perfect antisemite >>

Stop distorting and twisting history Fredo. Jews NEVER PERSECUTED EUROPEANS Fredo. Jews NEVER MURDERED EUROPEANS Fredo. Jews NEVER COMMITTED GENOCIDE against Europeans Fredo. Israel is not trying to harm Europe diplomatically Fredo. It is Europe that is harming Israel after persecuting them when they lived in Europe in exile for 2,000 years.

Distorting and twisting History ???? I HAVE NEVER DENIED THE HORRIBLE THINGS SOME EUROPEANS HAVE DONE TO JEWS. I am perfectly aware Israel and Jews has never done anything to Europe and to Europeans. I don't rewrite history.
EVERYTHING I SAID in my post was directed to YOU SEMSEM , and YOU ONLY and not to Jews as a whole. I have something to reproach to YOU personnaly but absolutely nothing to Jews in general , otherwise i would have the same attitude that i regret you have.


It is typical of European antisemites like yourself Fredo to try to portray the Jews as NAZIS. That is exactly what you are doing. Acting competely stupid and denying historical fact as if Jews have no reason to dislike Europe and it is the Jews who are now the NEW NAZIS.

Fredo you are an ANTISEMITE just by your immoral attempt to brush off history.

Sure sure , i am a typical antisemite :rolleyes:
BUT WHEN THE HELL I PORTRAYED JEWS AS THE NEW NAZIS ????
N.E.V.E.R
i put it with colors as you seem to have big problems reading people's posts and then making your own interpretation of their words !

As i said it previously , i denny nothing and don't rewrite history

Congratulations for your lack of Honesty , i leave you with it ...

[Batman]

i am absolutely not playing the innocent victim ! so stop it please.
don't come back again and again with " You Europeans murdered Jews for 2,000 years" , we are not 2000 years ago or even during WWII and the majority of us has never murdered a single Jew. So find a better reason for hating us...

"and the majority of us has never murdered a single Jew"...

I regret to inform you that ALL of Europe, participated in aiding and abetting the Nazi Jewish-extermination program. There were exceptional HEROIC few who worked fervently against the Nazis, but most Europeans were either helping the Nazis with various systems of information and collaboration, or simply happy to descend upon the Jewish property & belongings and steal it once the Jews were rounded up. Then there were the Europeans who ignored the sufferings and persecution of their Jewish neighbors, Jewish students, Jewish business colleagues, Jewish doctors, Jewish bakers, etc., etc., just as YOU ignore the sufferings and persecution of your Jewish neighbors, Jewish students, Jewish business colleagues, Jewish doctors, Jewish bakers who live in ISRAEL today, etc., etc

WE ARE SPEAKING OF 6 MILLION JEWISH MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN!
Do you honestly believe 6 million TARGETTED JEWISH RACE of people just get murdered without the help and collaboration of the rest of the EUROPEAN population?

WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE THERE?

[Batman]

FREDO,
L O O K AT YOURSELVES!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredo
"and the majority of us has never murdered a single Jew"...
1. THE MURDER OF 75,000 JEWS BY THE FRENCH EUROPEAN FOR PROFIT

French railroad sued by Holocaust survivors

By Grant McCool


NEW YORK, June 13 (Reuters) - Holocaust survivors have sued the French national railroad, accusing it of profiting from transporting tens of thousands of people, mostly Jews, to Nazi Germany death camps and slave labor camps during World War II.

The class-action lawsuit alleges the railroad Societe Nationale des Chemins de Fer, the latest target of Nazi-era victims seeking compensation, made no effort to compensate them and after the war ended, even sent a bill and received payment from the French government for use of deportation trains.

"They worked directly with the Nazis, they picked the routes, they selected the cars," Harriet Tamen, one of six lawyers representing about 100 survivors, said in a telephone interview on Wednesday.

"French personnel ran the cars to the French borders and when the cars came back from the camps, SNCF personnel washed and disinfected the cars. They knew exactly what they were doing and they got paid for it," the lawyer said.

New York attorneys for the French railroad could not immediately be reached for comment, but in court papers, they argued the company could not be sued in U.S. courts under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act of 1976. The law was not in place during the war, but the company argued Congress intended it to apply retroactively.

The final brief in the case was filed May 29 and Brooklyn federal court judge David Trager has to decide if the allegations merit putting the railroad on trial, plaintiffs' attorneys said. It was not known when that ruling would be made.

SETTLEMENTS

Survivors of the Nazi campaign to wipe out European Jewry and loot their wealth have reached settlements in recent years with banks and other corporations in Switzerland, Austria, Germany and France. Like the latest lawsuit against the French railroad, the others were also filed in New York, where many Jewish survivors live.

The plaintiffs are seeking unspecified damages from the railroad, but money is not the motive for suing, according to survivor Nicole Silberkleit, 74, of Manhattan. She is the sole survivor of a family of 11 who were transported from France to Auschwitz concentration camp in early 1944.

"No matter what they give it will never compensate for the losses and the time and the pain," Silberkleit said. "I am French myself but I think the French have acted disgracefully. They have never acknowledged that they have done anything wrong for many, many years."

Attorney Tamen said it was not known how much money the company made from leasing trains to the Nazis, but the lawsuit alleged it ran the trains like any commercial business and was paid by the wartime French government in Vichy "per head, per kilometre."

The lawsuit alleges that on March 27 1942, the first SNCF train deporting Jews left France for Auschwitz and the last SNCF train deporting Jews left France on August 17, 1944, one week before the liberation of Paris.

"After the War ended, SNCF made no effort to compensate those it had ill-treated and deported during the War, or surviving members of their families," the complaint alleged. "Instead, SNCF sought to receive more payments for its wartime activities. After the War, SNCF sent at least one demand for payment for the deportation trains. SNCF was duly paid."

It said the railroad operated more than 72 convoys of trains deporting 75,000 Jews, and tens of thousands of other non-Jewish "undesirables" to the concentration camps. Fewer than 3 percent survived.

------------------------------------------------
2.the SWISS EUROPEAN SUPPORT OF NAZI MURDER OF JEWS MACHINE FOR JEWISH GOLD (other European countries mentioned)

Swiss kept billions in looted Nazi gold - report (http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/swiss-kept-billions.html)


------------------------------------------------
3. THE MURDER OF JEWS (the main crimes against humanity) AND REFUSAL TO RETURN STOLEN JEWISH PROPERTY BY THE AUSTRIAN EUROPEANS (the salt upon the wounds of the survivor Jews, true to the cruel DISHONEST & SELF SERVING nature of Europe )

Supreme Court rules that Austria
can be sued over Nazi-looted art (http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=Court%3A+Austria+ca n+be+sued+on+art&intcategoryid=3&SearchOptimize=Jewish+News)

(excerpt)
.......Involved are six paintings by Austrian artist Gustav Klimt, now valued at $150 million, including a stunning portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer, Altmann’s aunt.

Austria has been fighting the return of the paintings, now hanging in its national gallery, arguing that sovereign states are immune to lawsuits filed in American courts.

However, a 6-3 majority of the U.S. Supreme Court upheld Altmann’s contention that there were exceptions to the immunity, in this case for property seized in violation of international law.

Austrian Consul General Peter Launsky-Tiefenthal said in Los Angeles that he had not yet received any reaction from his government.

.......

[Semsem]

>>though it's a real habit for you to shock me with your hatred and lack of honesty.>>

I am disgusted by your attempt to belittle the murder of Jews by EUROPE since 2,000 years. I am repulsed by your lack of understanding at Jewish anger and disgust at EUROPE'S continuing policy to HARM ISRAEL politically and economically after harming us already for thousands of years.

>>with absolutely no distinction between innocent people who have done nothing to harm Jews and those that indeed persecuted them ! >>

Your Governments represent you. The EU represents YOU. Chirac represents YOU FREDO.

>>Not all Europeans are Antisemites and Jews persecutors.<<

I never said that I hated EVERY EUROPEAN Fredo so stop putting words into my mouth. However many Europeans have told me that the establishment of Israel was a big mistake.

<<Germany of today isn't Germany of the Nazis , now , if you can't get it , that's an other problem. There are many Germans who have nothing against Jews ,>>

Don't start telling me that Germany has changed. It hasn't. Germans are still as antisemitic as ever. And they continue to rob my family even today. My grandfather had an apartment building in Berlin. The German Nazis stole it in 1940, the German Communists stole it in 1948 and the New Democratic Germany stole it again for the third time in 1991. They used a Treaty between Austria and East Germany signed in 1988 as a pathetic excuse to continue to rob Austrian Jews. In fact the Sunday Express of London wrote an article about my mother and so did the German newspaper DIE ZEIT. To me Germany is no different than before 1945. A nation of CROOKS / THIEVES and just as antisemitic as before the war like most Europeans.

<<Sure sure , i am a typical antisemite
BUT WHEN THE HELL I PORTRAYED JEWS AS THE NEW NAZIS ????
N.E.V.E.R>>

You did. You implied that I was NO DIFFERENT THAN AN ANTISEMITE IN REVERSE. That was a racist insensitive comment Fredo.

Stop playing the moral saint. You are a hypocrite.

[Fredo]

>>
>>Not all Europeans are Antisemites and Jews persecutors.<<

I never said that I hated EVERY EUROPEAN Fredo so stop putting words into my mouth. However many Europeans have told me that the establishment of Israel was a big mistake.

When you make your hateful comments about Europe , you touch europe AS A WHOLE , EVERY EUROPEANS .So i don't put words into your mouth , you don't need me for that.

<<Germany of today isn't Germany of the Nazis , now , if you can't get it , that's an other problem. There are many Germans who have nothing against Jews ,>>

Don't start telling me that Germany has changed. It hasn't. Germans are still as antisemitic as ever. And they continue to rob my family even today. My grandfather had an apartment building in Berlin. The German Nazis stole it in 1940, the German Communists stole it in 1948 and the New Democratic Germany stole it again for the third time in 1991. They used a Treaty between Austria and East Germany signed in 1988 as a pathetic excuse to continue to rob Austrian Jews. In fact the Sunday Express of London wrote an article about my mother and so did the German newspaper DIE ZEIT. To me Germany is no different than before 1945. A nation of CROOKS / THIEVES and just as antisemitic as before the war like most Europeans.


I am sincerelly sorry for you and your familly and i mean it believe it or not. I am aware that there is still a big number of stollen things which are the property of Jews which haven't been given back to them yet and it's a shame.
It's quite interesting that if all you say about today's Germany why the number of Jews settling down there is increasing ? If they are still the disgusting antisemites of the time of the nazis , why Jews are staying in Germany ??? it doesn't make sens ! they would go there to be hated ?

tell me what you think...



<<Sure sure , i am a typical antisemite
BUT WHEN THE HELL I PORTRAYED JEWS AS THE NEW NAZIS ????
N.E.V.E.R>>

You did. You implied that I was NO DIFFERENT THAN AN ANTISEMITE IN REVERSE. That was a racist insensitive comment Fredo.

Stop playing the moral saint. You are a hypocrite.

Ohhh because now YOU SEMSEM represent Jews worldwide ? That's an interesting point of view :rolleyes: .I am sorry but all your hateful comments about Europe are racist too. So your nice lesson of moral...

Stop playing the moral saint. You are a hypocrite.

Yeah exactly like you, so let's be associates , we will create the hypocrites' club.

Sorry for these sentences in French:

Tu vois Semsem , contrairement à toi , je fais une distinction , c'est à toi et à toi seul que je m'adresse, je n'est absolument rien contre les Juifs (J'ai même plusieurs amis Juifs) ni même contre toi en tant que Juif mais en tant qu'homme.Ce que je te repproche c'est ta haine sans distinction. Apprends à faire la part des choses et à ne pas exagérer comme tu le fais ici...merci.

[Ahava]

lack of understanding at Jewish anger and disgust at EUROPE'S continuing policy to HARM ISRAEL politically and economically after harming us already for thousands of years.


I do not disagree with the statement that there is an apparent lack of understanding. There is a fundamental thing missing. I think only Jews can fully understand this feeling. Therefore I think you're way too hard on him. If I weren't Jewish, I could be making the same statements as Fredo, probably. The fact that he doesn't understand the way we do, doesn't make him a nazi or antisemite! Be careful with your words, don't devaluate the term antisemite.

[Mediocrates]

I'm not shocked at Europe's one sided approach. What shocks me is their sweet sounding words that they are not. Or that anyone believes them. The EU has an agenda that much is clear. We can all see it so it is silly for Europe to pretend it's not there.

[Semsem]

>>The fact that he doesn't understand the way we do, doesn't make him a nazi or antisemite! Be careful with your words, don't devaluate the term antisemite.<<

Ahava Fredo accused me of being an ANTISEMITE IN REVERSE against Europeans. This is very common in Europe now to accuse Jews of being racists and Nazis. That is antisemitic.

[Semsem]

I'm not shocked at Europe's one sided approach. What shocks me is their sweet sounding words that they are not. Or that anyone believes them. The EU has an agenda that much is clear. We can all see it so it is silly for Europe to pretend it's not there.

The Europeans think that because they are no longer gassing Jews, they are no longer antisemitic.

[gorin002]

i would`t fo so fair as anti israel
but its allll one side way.i notice on other board i am.
if world wanna israel to remove fence other side should stop suicide bomps
its simple as that

as you notice is less and less than with out the fence
use to hear evry month some one told me evry week

am i thriled with the fence,wel no cause that money could boos eccenomic
of israel

[Timere]

Funny. I’ve never heard of such a fence. You’d think a thing that clearly violates European policy would be bashed in the Finnish media like crazy, but no. Haven’t heard a thing.

Persuming this truly is happening and Finland is just living in some sort of news blockout... It just makes no sense. Ukraine and Belarus could be members of the EU one day (though I think they are currently dismissed as countries with: Currently no chance of entering the EU – I find this discrimination as, for example, Serbia-Montenegro has some chances), I see no point in separating them with a fence. European politics often have a downfall, but I don’t think any EU country would vote for this sort of action (because, like I said before, it’s in violation of EU policy).

If this is true (which I, at this point, greatly doubt), I’d really like to find out who is planning this project.

Semsem,

Europeans are not antisemitistic - yes, you can single out a antisemite (or two, I’m afraid), but you could NEVER EVER call all European people antisemite. I, as any sane European, find being antisemite not only downright stupid, also prettymuch all the negative adjectives you can think of.

It is not Europe you hate. It is history. I do not hate. It is important to learn from history, it's important to REMEMBER, to learn that HATE is the only thing the fueled these actions. Learn that hate forces you to relive history - to apply mistakes made in the past onto future generations. The only time I hate is when hate is forced on me, is this what you feel? It's not that I don't regret the past - it's just that, I do not want to know what hate towards a race or a specific religion feels like - never, as it would make me no better than those who are responsible of ethnical cleansings or of the holocaust.

Europeans NEVER COMMITED GENOCIDE agains Jews. Understand? It was the job of a dictator and his close generals (people like Adolf Eichmann) that commanded, forced, these actions and soldies, people, too scared, too stupid, too weak to object. Most of Europe had nothing they could do to stop this - nothing. Every time I read about the WWII, I think "Why didn't people refuse? Why didn't they help? Why didn't they realize what was going on? Why?" This was the situation: Most didn't know. Those who knew had to choose between helping others and protecting the family - it takes great courage, a truly geat humanbeing, to choose the first one of these options. Not too many of the people in the world have these qualities - most of us are cowards.

Also, in 1942 when the commandment to proceed with the “Endlösung” came, Norway, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Holland, Jugoslavia, Tsekoslovakia, most of France and a part of Greece were either occupied or run by Nazi forces/people picked by Nazi forces. Countries like Hungrary, Romania, Slovenia, Bulgaria, French Vichy state and Kroatia were in constant Nazi observation and submitted to strict rules (I think they were called “Satellite countries” or something of that sort). No country could really object, there wasn’t much a president of a occupied country could have done. The majority of people in these countries had NOTHING to do with ANY of this. (Might be a little off with the years/happenings here – fresh out of my memory and all)

I remember when it was dicovered that Finland had actually sold out some of the Jews residing here. It was a media shock, a horrible shame, disgrace that was suddenly thrown at people's faces. The public opinion was some of this sort: "OUR COUNTRY did that?" "That is impossible, Finland cannot be responsible of such an horrible deed!" As some “experts” later tried to tell us: "Finnish government did not know the Nazis we're committing mass-murder." I sure hope this was true - it's just that I don't, and even if they didn’t know ... There is no reason to give out Finnish citizens. What could they have possibly have been thinking? What made them do such a thing? Finland could have stood up - Finland still had pride as a nation. Maybe it was the ongoing Russo-Finnish war. Maybe a small country feared to be caught in two fronts - crushed by two mighty nations. It doesn't justify it. Nothing does. There is nothing anyone can ever do that can justify or make it up. (Sadly U.N seems to think that they’ve justified things by giving the state of Israel [With goddamn stupid borderlines to begin with, without truly supporting Israel, I have too many opinions on this matter so I will not go on].)

Germany has changed. And not only that, there is no longer a Nazi dictator as the head of the country. Germany has, sadly, long been in denial of it's past - only now they are learning what the full scale of Nazi operations were. Do you think all Germans knew what was going on? Do you think neighbouring countries knew, before it was too late? NO - Goebbels did his job - secrets came of after the Reich fell and the so called "Nazi War Documents" were found and studied.

There is one thing we, and all nations can learn. NOT to let anything like this happen ever again. Understanding the history of the human being is the key to this. We have to learn from our past mistakes and live by applying these learned things to others. If there is one thing in human history that is to be avoided it is hate. Sadly, we seem to be repeating history - one time after another.

Now, before you start bashing me... I am NOT antisemite. I am also VERY aware of the Jewish history, the times European/Arab countries have expelled Jewish people from their land or commited massacres (like Chmelnitzky). I in no way want to justify a deed done by German/Any other governments at these times, prettymuch the opposite. I just want to point out that the majority of the people had nothing to do with these things. Oh, and I am pro-Fence too.

[Yaron]

>>The fact that he doesn't understand the way we do, doesn't make him a nazi or antisemite! Be careful with your words, don't devaluate the term antisemite.<<

Ahava Fredo accused me of being an ANTISEMITE IN REVERSE against Europeans. This is very common in Europe now to accuse Jews of being racists and Nazis. That is antisemitic.

Well I read in the beginning of the thread, someone wished Europe would sink in the ocean? Since I live in Holland we would probably be the first to go down that way. But tell me would you throw away the good with the bad?
I know (and agree) European politics are totally ignorant, external as well as internal politics. But there are a still a lot of people with a warm hart for Israel. These people don't have high profiles like politicians but mostly are just quiet christians who see God and His people as part of His promise to the world and we work and help in many different ways towards that goal. So have hope and know you will never be alone, and hope like Abraham at Sodom and Gomorra to save all the righteous people before we sink in the ocean, not willing to give up even one!

Shalom,

[determinism]

semsem,

LOL what a relief that neither the US nor israel are bordering an ocean!

Ahava Fredo accused me of being an ANTISEMITE IN REVERSE against Europeans. This is very common in Europe now to accuse Jews of being racists and Nazis. That is antisemitic.

so jews are the only ones who experience racism? fact is racism seems to be perfectly ok to some of you as long as it is not directed against jews.

regarding the wall...noone would complain that israel is building a wall would it not be built on palestinian territory!

[Cato]

The Palestinians would complain even if the wall was just a wooden pallisade around Tel Aviv, this isn't publicized in Europe, and had I only been reading Greek news I wouldn't have found out about it but there are plans to build a high tech security system around the Gaza Strip on the green line, no swirving into Palestinian Territory and the Palestinians have launched a major cry campaign about it.

Timere most Conquered European Nations share some responsibility with Germany for the Holocaust, the exceptions are Italy, Norweigh, and Denmark. The reason is the anti-semites who were in those countries openly helped the Germans and in many cases were the reason the jews were found.

I think this thread is stupid, it complains about something that is completely good. The European Wall will help EU security, and it will also boost the Israeli Economy. Israeli Construction Companies need these contracts with Europeans, and a large security wall being build partly by us is a great deal for us. So why complain about something that helps our economy?

Also guys you really should not do as much bringing the Holocaust up when our interests clash with those of Europe. European Nations and Israel are going to get into rivalries, like European Nations and European Nations, and European Nations and Asian Nations. The Holocaust should only be brought up in the case of blatant anti-semitism, like if Noam Chomsky were invited to adress the government.

[Toga]

Unlike other religions, Cato, remembrance is one of the pillars of Judaism. We have to remember the mistakes so that we don't have to repeat them in the future.

In addition, nobody has died for our sins. We are responsible for our own actions.

[MGB8]

The majority of Europe turned a blind eye to, if not outright assisted, the Nazis. Oh, certainly there were many heroic Europeans who opposed or hid Jews, etc. But more just said "eh, its not my business."

However, what is funny is that after the Holocaust, Britain helped the Arabs in the war of extermination against the Jews, and now Europe is willing to do the same, pushing Israel to take greater and greater risks of anhialation in the name of appeasing the Arabs, even arguing that the national embodiment of the Jew, Israel, should be murdered?

Has Europe changed at all?

[Zlatorog]

Timere most Conquered European Nations share some responsibility with Germany for the Holocaust, the exceptions are Italy, Norweigh, and Denmark. The reason is the anti-semites who were in those countries openly helped the Germans and in many cases were the reason the jews were found.

Italy caused so much destruction, I felt very uncomfortable a few days ago when there was an important soccer game in Palermo and our team was not allowed to see the stadium, it was allegedly flooded and the balls were nowhere to be found. The signs during the game were inviting Sicilians to visit Carinthia, their friendliest holiday destination. It felt like 1920 all over again.

The Italians began with miglioramento etnico of razze inferiori. Currently the EU is investing to bring people together on both sides of the border.

I've already posted about Italy and Austria extensively, I would like to add someone else's post

Example 1 Immigration by moving borders

West of Slovenia went under Italy between WWI and WWII. Slovenians suddenly being strangers in a strange country. Language forbidden, personal names changed, Slovenian books burned, political oposition crushed, people deported, jailed, killed.

Example 2 Immigration to America

First generation didn't integrate and was a subject to name calling, rocks thrown at them and if possible people took advantage of them, since they didn't know the language and customs.

Example 3 My grandmother

Moved to Slovenia some years after WWII, never learned the language (but converted to christianity from judaism).

Example 4 My sister

Moved abroad. Is learning the language but keeps a low profile when surrounded by people she doesn't know. Apparently it is easy to spot a foreigner and mistake her for Russian. And they don't like Russians.

[Cato]

The majority of Europe turned a blind eye to, if not outright assisted, the Nazis. Oh, certainly there were many heroic Europeans who opposed or hid Jews, etc. But more just said "eh, its not my business."

However, what is funny is that after the Holocaust, Britain helped the Arabs in the war of extermination against the Jews, and now Europe is willing to do the same, pushing Israel to take greater and greater risks of anhialation in the name of appeasing the Arabs, even arguing that the national embodiment of the Jew, Israel, should be murdered?

Has Europe changed at all?

Toga political discussions about a jewish nations interest clashing with that of a christian one on something like were a wall should be built does not warrant bringing up the Holocaust. Remind people at the right time.

MGBB 5 rogue British Pilots and some Rogue Officers all of whom had prior connections with the Arabs joined them. Britain stayed Nuetral during the war, and some rogues helped the Arabs, but Britain did not help the Arabs. British Observers on the ground recorded events and presented them to the UN as the war went along, which was helpful because they shot down every Arab argument that was brought before the UN.

[SteveK]

The majority of Europe turned a blind eye to, if not outright assisted, the Nazis. Oh, certainly there were many heroic Europeans who opposed or hid Jews, etc. But more just said "eh, its not my business."

However, what is funny is that after the Holocaust, Britain helped the Arabs in the war of extermination against the Jews, and now Europe is willing to do the same, pushing Israel to take greater and greater risks of anhialation in the name of appeasing the Arabs, even arguing that the national embodiment of the Jew, Israel, should be murdered?

Has Europe changed at all?


Oh, yes, MGB8.

Israeli Prime Minister Arik Sharon and his brazen dog atheist government are just the poor little sheep being led to slaughter.

[Cato]

Italy caused so much destruction, I felt very uncomfortable a few days ago when there was an important soccer game in Palermo and our team was not allowed to see the stadium, it was allegedly flooded and the balls were nowhere to be found. The signs during the game were inviting Sicilians to visit Carinthia, their friendliest holiday destination. It felt like 1920 all over again.

The Italians began with miglioramento etnico of razze inferiori. Currently the EU is investing to bring people together on both sides of the border.

I've already posted about Italy and Austria extensively, I would like to add someone else's post

Example 1 Immigration by moving borders

West of Slovenia went under Italy between WWI and WWII. Slovenians suddenly being strangers in a strange country. Language forbidden, personal names changed, Slovenian books burned, political oposition crushed, people deported, jailed, killed.

Example 2 Immigration to America

First generation didn't integrate and was a subject to name calling, rocks thrown at them and if possible people took advantage of them, since they didn't know the language and customs.

Example 3 My grandmother

Moved to Slovenia some years after WWII, never learned the language (but converted to christianity from judaism).

Example 4 My sister

Moved abroad. Is learning the language but keeps a low profile when surrounded by people she doesn't know. Apparently it is easy to spot a foreigner and mistake her for Russian. And they don't like Russians.

Italy didn't participate in the Holocaust. Moussalini wanted to help Hitler, but the Italians did not. There was massive and open Italian oppossition to Moussalini's racist policies, and the Italians prevented any deportations of jews to Concentration Camps in their land up untill 1944. In 1944 the Italians overthrew the hated Moussalini declared a republic, and believing the Allies would come save them and their army was much stronger then it was (On paper the Italian Army was still powerful) they changed sides. Within days however the Army was annhialated.

Occupied Italy tried to prevent jews from being deported however the Germans had an army and would torture random people on every block in every city to get information on who was jewish.

Edit-Ariel Sharon is a very religious man, he would feel very insulted you were to call him an Athiest to his face SteveK. There is a difference between secularism and athiesm. Besides the Disengagement was in Israel's best interest, along with further concessions.

[determinism]

MGB8,

pushing Israel to take greater and greater risks of anhialation in the name of appeasing the Arabs, even arguing that the national embodiment of the Jew, Israel, should be murdered?

???????

israel is close to annihilation? in what world do you live in?

i am living in one where israel has one of the best equipped armies + >200 nukes + US backing. the arabs have incompetent leaders and mostly crappy soviet equipment from the 70ties.

[Zlatorog]

Italy didn't participate in the Holocaust. Moussalini wanted to help Hitler, but the Italians did not. There was massive and open Italian oppossition to Moussalini's racist policies, and the Italians prevented any deportations of jews to Concentration Camps in their land up untill 1944. In 1944 the Italians overthrew the hated Moussalini declared a republic, and believing the Allies would come save them and their army was much stronger then it was (On paper the Italian Army was still powerful) they changed sides. Within days however the Army was annhialated.

Occupied Italy tried to prevent jews from being deported however the Germans had an army and would torture random people on every block in every city to get information on who was jewish.

Edit-Ariel Sharon is a very religious man, he would feel very insulted you were to call him an Athiest to his face SteveK. There is a difference between secularism and athiesm. Besides the Disengagement was in Israel's best interest, along with further concessions.

First they caused an ethnocide, then a genocide, then a bloody war, didn't really save many people in Croatia, plus, from Ljubljana concentration camp and the rest of Slovenia they put thousands and thousands to concentration camps and starved them to death. In 44 the Germans took the last remaining Jews from birbed wired Ljubljana.

It went on for three decades.

[Cato]

First they caused an ethnocide, then a genocide, then a bloody war, didn't really save many people in Croatia, plus, from Ljubljana concentration camp and the rest of Slovenia they put thousands and thousands to concentration camps and starved them to death. In 44 the Germans took the last remaining Jews from birbed wired Ljubljana.

It went on for three decades.

That was the Germans, and some Italian Traitors.

If you look up any reliable source you will see that the Italian Population in Italy which is what I am talking about by Italy did not commit genocide, and fought against handing over jews to the Germans.

What you yourself said is the Germans essentially siezed land that was occupied by the Italian Army and deported the jews there to concentration camps.

Try comparing how Italian Civilians and Junior Officers (Who were against the dictatorship of Moussalini and Facism) acted to the way the Poles acted, or the Ukranians, or the Lithuanians.

[MGB8]

Israel was almost destroyed in 1973 (ps - they had the bomb then, too). In 1967, if that oil embargo had gone on much longer, so that Israel couldn't feul its tanks and jets as well, and had Israel not pre-empted..... Israel is one Arab nuke away from destruction. Israel is constantly attacked by terrorism with the hope of making tens if not hundreds of thousands of Jews leave by making life unbearably dangerous (to soften them up for the war.)

Al-queda is planning the destruction of Israel (read the news?)

Israel is surrounded by 200 million Arabs, the vast majority of which want Israel destroyed, many of the nations with advanced US and French weaponry.

Meanwhile, all that Europe wants to do is prevent Israel from stopping the attacks on its citizens while putting it in the same military strategic situation it was in in 1967....

That is risking genocide of the Jews... again... but what do Europeans care - its not them, and it will keep the oil flowing cheap.


MGB8,



???????

israel is close to annihilation? in what world do you live in?

i am living in one where israel has one of the best equipped armies + >200 nukes + US backing. the arabs have incompetent leaders and mostly crappy soviet equipment from the 70ties.

[Ray]

Many others, too, have faced discrimination down the labyrinthian corridors of history.

The Genocide against the Jews being of recent history and recall, it raises the horrors of discrimination and genocide more lucidly.

[Zlatorog]

That was the Germans, and some Italian Traitors.

I'm talking about how they caused the war, participated in it and made it all a lot easier. They were not Austrian minority friendly either, except that they didn't build special concentration camps for them - that Wiesenthal decided were somehow full of Jews, and it's about time that this Cold War fairytale ends.

you look up any reliable source.

In early 44 we had reliable maps of Mauthausen etc, the fourth country that occupied us was Croatia, Finland and Denmark recognised that monster state. Those Italians who fought for their Salo Republic and the surrouding area until the peace treaty was finally signed in 47 are probably laughing at us, because they looted our art, voted for rightwing politicians that dismiss everything in an official tone 'You're still behaving like thiefs', while they never took care of those Italians who were unfortunately kicked out and still mistreat our minority. We lost more land than they did. The New Yorkers are not protesting against Tremaglia for nothing. Istituto friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Friulian Institute for History of the Liberation Movement) in 1993 determined that 185 civilians and 416 soldiers of various nationalities and ranks from Trieste were declared missing after the war. It is impossible that the number of Italians disappeared would be greater than documented in the census register and confirmed by historical research. In Italy you might find that we pogromed 400.000 Italians. Most experts estimate that no more than 1100 to 1600 Italians from wartime region Venezia-Giuglia were missing and could have been executed between 1943 and 1945. As comparison: only in Milan and Turin about 20.000 Italian fascists were executed after 1945. In the very moment of the Italian capitulation in 1943 there were 50.000 Italian soldiers on the Slovenian territory. They all have been regularly disarmed and sent home, including the commander General Marco Robotti. This was stipulated in the agreement of the unconditional surrender between the Allies and Marshall Pietro Badoglio. And the Slovenian Liberation Army was the Allied army.

The Austrians, still celebrating their fake plebiscite from 1920, with Haider seeing 'an outside enemy' and small children singing, I just hope they won't be taught their official Styrian anthem that says how they still own a considerable chunk of our land.

http://www.hervardi.com/hw/DSC03634.jpg

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/slovenia.html. When they kicked our Jews out in the 15th and 16th century they had a considerable amount of time to prepare themselves and were blowing the shofars as they did. The Jewish Encyclopedia is a much more reliable source. What we had at that time was the Turkish invasions and more than 300 uprisings, with beheadings and torture. Our priests had no rights and were gamblers and bartenders.

[SteveK]

[...]

Edit-Ariel Sharon is a very religious man, he would feel very insulted you were to call him an Athiest to his face SteveK. There is a difference between secularism and athiesm. Besides the Disengagement was in Israel's best interest, along with further concessions.

Cato,

God willing that I will get the opportunity to call Arik Sharon and his government of brazen dog atheists as such to their faces in public in the REAL ISRAEL FORUM.

Either The Living God of Israel is sanctified by the Jewish State, in the sight of the nations, or His Name is desecrated by just reducing Him to some Passover storybook myth.

Tell me how God has been sanctified by the Jewish State in the sight of the nations through such a "Jewish" leadership,--- who expelled Jews from their God given land?

There are millions of "very religious Jews" who tell the world about this God Who took the Jews out of Egyptian bondage into our own Land. You and Arik Sharon know the Passover story very well. You repeat it over and over and over and over and over to the world. Does repeating that Passover story make you and Arik Sharon very religious secular men and not atheists? Does repeating that Passover story mean that you really believe in The Living God of Israel?

We've come from Abraham to Arik in 3,500+ years. From that very religious God fearing man who was promised the Land of Israel by God, to the "very religious secular man" who "keeps his promises" to give up God given Promised Land.

Does Arik really know the difference between The Living God of Israel, and himself?

[Ray]

Does Arik really know the difference between The Living God of Israel, and himself?

Possibly he does.

But then, he could be mistaken!

[determinism]

MGB8,

Israel was almost destroyed in 1973 (ps - they had the bomb then, too). In 1967, if that oil embargo had gone on much longer, so that Israel couldn't feul its tanks and jets as well, and had Israel not pre-empted..... Israel is one Arab nuke away from destruction. Israel is constantly attacked by terrorism with the hope of making tens if not hundreds of thousands of Jews leave by making life unbearably dangerous (to soften them up for the war.)

israel won both wars with ease did it not? even in 1973 with the surprise attack of the arabs did they have no problem to overpower the arab forces.
iraq was called the 5th strongest army in the world in 1990. supposedly equiped with high tech material. how many US planes did they shoot down again? 1 or 0? i don't want to be overly optimistic but it seems arabs have not the slightest idea about military strategy.

a possible arab nuke might be a problem but in this case occupying the WB and building a wall will not help much. it would most likely lead to a cold war stale mate between israel and the arabs.

Meanwhile, all that Europe wants to do is prevent Israel from stopping the attacks on its citizens while putting it in the same military strategic situation it was in in 1967....

that is simply not true. what europe is against is the occupation of the WB and a wall that is build on palestinian land.



Zlatorog,

yes it is interesting how the italiens got out of this mess so nicely! after all they started the war in the balkans and tried to play a colonial role in africa again.

The Austrians, still celebrating their fake plebiscite from 1920, with Haider seeing 'an outside enemy' and small children singing, I just hope they won't be taught their official Styrian anthem that says how they still own a considerable chunk of our land.

wasn't the plebiscite done by the allies?
over all i think the two sides are pretty even. some slovenians were forced out from austria and some austrians were forced out of slovenia after WWI. Except for perhaps a hand full of old people in south austria who faught against yugoslavia the feelings towards slovenia are very friendly.

[MGB8]

Israel was in danger of losing the Yom Kippur war before they came back and smashed the Arab forces. A couple of mad breaks...

1967 they won handily, sure, but what would have happened had the Egyptian-Syrian airforce not been shattered...? Had the blockade continued and Israel's feul supplies diminished further?

Lets recall that Jordan invaded Israel in 1967, after Israel's attack on the Egyptian/Syrian Airforce in Egypt after their blockade and the expulsion of peacekeepers and mobilization of 200,000 soldiers (and announcement that they would push Israel into the sea.)

Now, given that, and given that the "Green Line" armistace non-borders were once called the "Auschwitz lines" because of their lack of defensibility... and why shouldn't Israel take land at strategic points to make, for example, the shelling of Jerusalem more difficult, or to create roadblocks in the easiest passage across the WB that could split Israel in half (making war much harder to fight and win?)

Why should Israeli security concerns not be taken into account.

Meanwhile, Israel HAS THE RIGHT to annex land in the WB and Gaza. That just means giving citizenship to the people on the Annexed land.

The European position - "give it all to the Pal Arabs" IGNORES the facts of how the land became Israeli, ignores the ethnic conflict and consequences, and ignores Israeli security considerations as well as not giving the Arabs ANY negative consequences for invading Israel over and over again.

A REAL evenhanded approach, which the US does use, despite the (false) calls that it is 100% on Israel's side (nope - its 100% against Israel's genocide - which is why the Arabs are so upset... Europe is not so %100)

is to weight Israeli security and nation concerns on the WB gaza versus the Pal Arab needs and rights - the need for them to have self-determination and a contiguous, secure state, versus Israel's need in a situation where all of its neighbors, whether or not they have a scrap of paper that says "peace treaty" or not, have vast majorities that want to commit genocide on Israel.

Didn't Germany have a paper that said "peace" after WW1, too? How well did that hold up?

[Cato]

I'm talking about how they caused the war, participated in it and made it all a lot easier. They were not Austrian minority friendly either, except that they didn't build special concentration camps for them - that Wiesenthal decided were somehow full of Jews, and it's about time that this Cold War fairytale ends.



In early 44 we had reliable maps of Mauthausen etc, the fourth country that occupied us was Croatia, Finland and Denmark recognised that monster state. Those Italians who fought for their Salo Republic and the surrouding area until the peace treaty was finally signed in 47 are probably laughing at us, because they looted our art, voted for rightwing politicians that dismiss everything in an official tone 'You're still behaving like thiefs', while they never took care of those Italians who were unfortunately kicked out and still mistreat our minority. We lost more land than they did. The New Yorkers are not protesting against Tremaglia for nothing. Istituto friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Friulian Institute for History of the Liberation Movement) in 1993 determined that 185 civilians and 416 soldiers of various nationalities and ranks from Trieste were declared missing after the war. It is impossible that the number of Italians disappeared would be greater than documented in the census register and confirmed by historical research. In Italy you might find that we pogromed 400.000 Italians. Most experts estimate that no more than 1100 to 1600 Italians from wartime region Venezia-Giuglia were missing and could have been executed between 1943 and 1945. As comparison: only in Milan and Turin about 20.000 Italian fascists were executed after 1945. In the very moment of the Italian capitulation in 1943 there were 50.000 Italian soldiers on the Slovenian territory. They all have been regularly disarmed and sent home, including the commander General Marco Robotti. This was stipulated in the agreement of the unconditional surrender between the Allies and Marshall Pietro Badoglio. And the Slovenian Liberation Army was the Allied army.

The Austrians, still celebrating their fake plebiscite from 1920, with Haider seeing 'an outside enemy' and small children singing, I just hope they won't be taught their official Styrian anthem that says how they still own a considerable chunk of our land.

http://www.hervardi.com/hw/DSC03634.jpg

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/slovenia.html. When they kicked our Jews out in the 15th and 16th century they had a considerable amount of time to prepare themselves and were blowing the shofars as they did. The Jewish Encyclopedia is a much more reliable source. What we had at that time was the Turkish invasions and more than 300 uprisings, with beheadings and torture. Our priests had no rights and were gamblers and bartenders.


Yes the Italians did go to war in the Balkans, bringing it into the war, however the last time I checked handing over jews to the nazis for extermination, and fighting a war of imperialistic greed is not the same thing. Also just how does the Papal States expelling the jews in the 15th and 16th century have anything to do with the Holocast?

I never said the Italians were saints, I said they did not hand over the jews of Italy en masse willingly the way the Poles and certain other people did.

MGBB controlling the West Bank gives as many risks as it negates, and don't forget every Israeli Soldier who dies in the West Bank is a young kid who graduated High School with hopes for the future, and aspirations and dreams that are cut tragically short for no good reason.

[rhodescholar]

Cato,

God willing that I will get the opportunity to call Arik Sharon and his government of brazen dog atheists as such to their faces in public in the REAL ISRAEL FORUM.

Either The Living God of Israel is sanctified by the Jewish State, in the sight of the nations, or His Name is desecrated by just reducing Him to some Passover storybook myth.

Tell me how God has been sanctified by the Jewish State in the sight of the nations through such a "Jewish" leadership,--- who expelled Jews from their God given land?

There are millions of "very religious Jews" who tell the world about this God Who took the Jews out of Egyptian bondage into our own Land. You and Arik Sharon know the Passover story very well. You repeat it over and over and over and over and over to the world. Does repeating that Passover story make you and Arik Sharon very religious secular men and not atheists? Does repeating that Passover story mean that you really believe in The Living God of Israel?

We've come from Abraham to Arik in 3,500+ years. From that very religious God fearing man who was promised the Land of Israel by God, to the "very religious secular man" who "keeps his promises" to give up God given Promised Land.

Does Arik really know the difference between The Living God of Israel, and himself?

Ugh, another orthodox twerp who lives off my tax dollars and thinks they will tell me that it is g-d-given land they live on while 8,000 jews repress over 1 million arabs. Brilliant.

"Expelled jews from their g-d given land". Pathetic.

One of the very items that drove me away a long time ago from being more accepting of the religious doctrine was orthodox fools like this in israel, who think they can lie to other jews for money so they dont have to work and can live off subsidies while they "study torah." What kind of Bulle is that?

They have huge families - like welfare queens in New Jersey, continuously having babies to increase their welfare payments - while demanding that they be exempted from serving in the army, performing civic duties, etc.

They act like fat queen bees in a hive to be "served" by other jews.

Are they even aware that in accordance with jewish law, they are supposed to still have jobs while studying torah?

And frankly, if you arent happy with the gaza disengagement - or the impending west bank exit - you can find a more hospitable country that will take in a few thousand orthodox jews who prefer welfare to working. N Korea or cuba - a few socialist nations - might be takers.

[rhodescholar]

I never said the Italians were saints, I said they did not hand over the jews of Italy en masse willingly the way the Poles and certain other people did.

IIRC, correctly, over half of the venice jews died in the death camps. I dotn know about the other cities, but while italy was slightly better than some of the other collaborators - especially the toilet bowl that is called france today - it was hardly much better overall.

[Zlatorog]

wasn't the plebiscite done by the allies?


Trust me, there's nothing to celebrate. It's an insult to the Jews, Slovenes and Austrians. It needs to disappear before its 100th anniversary, 85th this year.

over all i think the two sides are pretty even. some slovenians were forced out from austria and some austrians were forced out of slovenia after WWI. Except for perhaps a hand full of old people in south austria who faught against yugoslavia the feelings towards slovenia are very friendly.

600 years of Habsburg absolutism, getting a school in the 599th year, no government support for general Maister's adventure, after all, in the end, at the Isonzo front we were the best Kaiser's soldiers. Plus, whatever the Handschar did, I don't even raise an eyebrow, because I look at their whole history.

The Austrians were hit by Avnoj resolutions, so was everyone.

[Zlatorog]

Yes the Italians did go to war in the Balkans, bringing it into the war, however the last time I checked handing over jews to the nazis for extermination, and fighting a war of imperialistic greed is not the same thing.

The Poles had plenty of divisions fighting in Italy, why were they there in the first place.

[determinism]

Zlatorog,

Trust me, there's nothing to celebrate.

i agree there should be no celebrations of victories. then again worldwide every victory is celebrated as idiotic as this may be.

It's an insult to the Jews, Slovenes and Austrians. It needs to disappear before its 100th anniversary, 85th this year.


what does the 1922 vote has to do with the jews? the nazis would have occupied slovenia including the disputed part of austria in any case.

600 years of Habsburg absolutism, getting a school in the 599th year, no government support for general Maister's adventure, after all, in the end, at the Isonzo front we were the best Kaiser's soldiers. Plus, whatever the Handschar did, I don't even raise an eyebrow, because I look at their whole history.

The Austrians were hit by Avnoj resolutions, so was everyone.

i am not sure if i understand everything you say. are you complaining that the area was ruled by the habsburgs? i am not a fan of the habsburgs by even a wide shot but compared to other rulers they were pretty ok (at least after maria theresia).

[Cato]

The Poles had plenty of divisions fighting in Italy, why were they there in the first place.

Because the Polish Civilians at home handed over jews werever they found them. There were some rightous Poles that would not help exterminate the jews, however overall the Polish Civilians did their best to help hand over the jews. The Polish Army did fanatically fight against the Germans however.

The way to say who was involved in the Holocaust more then others is to look at what ordinary civilians did at home. If you just base it on the ressistance from national armies I can argue that France was the best out of the occupied countries.

rhodescholar Italy was better overall then most ocupied countries. I didn't say the Italians SUCCEEDED at saving their jewish population only that they TRIED THEIR BEST, the same way the Norweigens did not SUCEED at saving their jews but also did their best. Sorry about the caps lock but for some reason my computer doesn't have that highlight thing to mark points.

The SS would just walk into towns and torture random Italians untill they would say who was jewish, and who was hiding jews. They did the same thing in Norweigh in order to get Norwiegens to tell them who was jewish and who was hiding jews.

If you were tortured by the Gestapo you would talk, torture yields information it's that simple.

The number of Italian Jews killed is a testament to German Determination to find and kill jews for the most part. Unlike in Belgium which was quite there regular anti-German anti-nazi and anti-facist riots in Italy that the facists and later the nazis had to deal with. It was those riots that caused the fall of Moussalini.

I don't get how a discussion over Holocaust involvement turned into a debate about Slovenia.

[Zlatorog]

Because the Polish Civilians at home handed over jews werever they found them. There were some rightous Poles that would not help exterminate the jews, however overall the Polish Civilians did their best to help hand over the jews. The Polish Army did fanatically fight against the Germans however.

The Polish civilians were screwed, but their history is as distant to me as Primo Levi's memoirs.

The way to say who was involved in the Holocaust more then others is to look at what ordinary civilians did at home. If you just base it on the ressistance from national armies I can argue that France was the best out of the occupied countries.

In that case Slovenia and Croatia were also Italian and the Fascist regime tolled 60.000 deaths just in Slovenia. The Ustasha state was a Fascist idea as well.

http://www.sehepunkte.historicum.net/2004/10/6088.html

The Italian resistance was here, we had plenty of their divisions fighting for our army, at land, at sea, if you have time read my monologues right here at IF, if not, they're not thrilled lately

http://www.anpimagenta.it/pagine/agg/anni/05/23-01-05/rai.htm

The Jewish batallion was operating from this area http://ava.rtvslo.si/ava/media?action=play&mediaId=1871000

Real Player clip, not about them.

It's about Sloveniaaaaaaaa (http://www.rtvslo.si/upload/Slovenija/evro3_show.jpg). Just kidding, heck, this thread is about the disaster in Marocco. Our primary focus is the Balkans, still demining, treating trauma, we had some Israeli and Pal children here as well. Should happen more often.

[determinism]

SteveK,

a question...in your opinion does israel not owe a lot to the jews in the US and europe? is their support and political influence not essential for the survival or at least prosperity of israel?

[SteveK]

SteveK,

a question...in your opinion does israel not owe a lot to the jews in the US and europe? is their support and political influence not essential for the survival or at least prosperity of israel?

determinism,

Political:

Especially the American Jews only add more reason for the U.S. to pressure Israel to appease and surrender land to the Arabs. American Christians know what is the meaning of "homeland". The American Jews yap about a Jewish Homeland but don't know the meaning that homeland is the sovereign country where you actually live. The U.S. Government is witness to millions of American Jews who rival the population of Israel, and who are quite content with being Jews in reality in their American suburbs without any real connection to or desire to live in any "Jewish Homeland", Israel,--- regardless of what these Jews mouth. I don't expect the U.S. Government, with all their diplomatic and economic/financial ties to the Arabs, to be better Zionists and supporters of an undivided Israeli capitol of Jerusalem, than what they witness in the behaviour of the millions of American Jews. You must live in your sovereign homeland to claim it. Your sovereign homeland is not held like an absentee landlord. American Christians understand this reality. They have one and only one homeland. The Jews should have been speaking as one united sovereign nation to the world,-- and not 1/2 Zionists living in Israel, and the other 1/2 "Zionists" living comfortably in Christian Lands.
I don't think that you gentiles are so stupid. And, America or even Europe don't have to be anti-semitic to make the decision to pressure Israel to appease and surrender to the Arabs given the reality they witness in so many millions of diaspora Jews telling them the completely opposite message that we Jews in Israel are trying to tell the world for all the Land of Israel for the Jewish Homeland.


Social:

The diaspora Jews are extremely dangerous to the fabric of Israeli society.
The Jewish religious movements are quite secure in their American Christian lands, and send a clear message to the Israelis that one can be even a better Jew in Brooklyn or Los-Angeles, than one can be in Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv. Jewish identity is the key person strength making The State of Israel.
America or Europe doesn't need a Jewish identity for their survival and prosperity, but Israel needs a Jewish identity for our survival and prosperity.
The diaspora Jews keep that Jewish identity transplanted in Christian lands, and their population in the millions is still forceful enough to communicate that devastating message to Israeli society: Be a better Jew here in America or Europe than there in Israel. Furthermore, these diaspora religious movements open branches here in Israel to teach Israelis about their heritage.
These New York headquartered Jews are ludicrously teaching the builders and fighters for the Jewish Homeland about their heritage.


Economic:

You've already heard the Jews here ranting about their support for Israel's national budget. But, their own American and European Jewish communities can't pass the hat frequently enough for their own finances. My father was a conservative Rabbi. The diaspora suburban Jewish ghetto realities are a far cry from their being the "parliament-of-the-Jewish-People, and land-deed- holders, and national-endowment for the State of Israel". Their fundraising for their own self-aggrandizing agendas uses Israel as just a rally point.
I wonder how many tens-of-thousands, hundreds-of-thousands, or millions of Jews lose sleep every night over their life savings investments in the economy of Israel? Their minds, hearts, souls, feet, and pocketbooks are no where near the Jewish Homeland, which their mouths yap so frequently about to the world.


Spiritual:

The identity of the Jews is still a function of institutionalized religion through all the Jewish religious movements and rabbinic dynasties which maintain the diaspora image of building the Land of Israel in the back yard of their suburban ghettos. I don't expect the world to accept Jewish nationalism when the image is still one of just the Jew and religion. That was not the true Jewish heritage,which is one of a sovereign people in their Land of Israel.
Both the State of Israel and the diaspora only strengthen that stereotype of the Jew as a religion. And this plays heavily against the State of Israel because why should one religion need a State? Why should just the Jewish religion be given full sovereignty over Jerusalem? Talking about a "Jewish Homeland" should be annoying to the world because the world sees that millions of Jews are quite happy as Jews with their religion in America and Europe, and so why should these "Zionist" Jews need their own "Jewish" State? Why can't these Zionist Jews share their state with the Arabs and so on. Therefore, Israel has become synonymous as just the refugee Jewish state, and as it's actually related to by these diaspora Jews among themselves. Without a strong attachment and implementation of our true Jewish spiritual heritage, as a united sovereign Jewish nation, the Jews and the atheist "real" Israelis have no real case for taking land away from the Arabs. If millions of American and European Jews are so happy in the diaspora and make even a better Jewish identity with their religion, then we Israeli Zionist Jews could also be happy and absorbed in other lands. The Arabs haven't left the area for centuries. And, the vast majority of the Israelis are only here for less than a hundred years. We all have roots in the diaspora. The Arabs here had no diaspora. So what is the Jewish claim if not what the Torah observant communities have passed for centuries under unspeakable persecutions in their prayers and the true Jewish heritage which has given us our Hebrew Language,and our international claim ticket to all of the Land of Israel. That is what made these diaspora Jews heros. But when the day arrived and their prayers were answered for their unlimited return to their ancestral homeland, then suddenly all the excuses and "God given reasons" not to return. And, those Jews who did return were predominantly those who wanted to build a secular countr, and leave the ghetto mentality of the diaspora.


And, now, we have Israeli and diaspora Jews caving into Arab demands simply because they can't justify the Jewish presence here in Israel as the sovereign Jewish Homeland. And, the Torah communities who passed that true Jewish heritage for centuries have neither been able or allowed by those like Ophra and her atheist gang to unpack their baggage and get set up again for national God fearing and Torah leadership. And, it's not all the fault of those like Ophra. These Torah observant communities and leaders play to the whims of the diaspora Jewish illusions because the diaspora is a big source of their fund raising and market for all the "Jewish heritage" stuff they have for sale. The institutionalized Judaism here in Israel is no different from that in the diaspora. Again, it's no wonder to me why the world questions the real need for a sovereign JEWISH State, with Jerusalem as its undivided capitol, given the Jews' combined behaviour to the contrary here in Israel and in the diaspora.

In the final cold analysis, the Jews are their own worst enemy.

[Cato]

SteveK,

a question...in your opinion does israel not owe a lot to the jews in the US and europe? is their support and political influence not essential for the survival or at least prosperity of israel?

Why ask him determinism? He is the ultimate right wing nut job.

"MYTH

“Israel continues to demand large amounts of economic aid even though it is now a rich country that no longer needs help.”

FACT

Starting with fiscal year 1987, Israel annually received $1.2 billion in all grant economic aid and $1.8 billion in all grant military assistance. In 1998, Israel offered to voluntarily reduce its dependence on U.S. economic aid. According to an agreement reached with the Clinton Administration and Congress, the $1.2 billion economic aid package will be reduced by $120 million each year so that it will be phased out over 10 years.

Half of the annual savings in economic assistance each year ($60 million) will be added to Israel's military aid package in recognition of its increased security needs. In 2001, Israel received $840 million in economic aid and $1.98 billion in military aid. In 2002, economic aid was reduced to $720 million and military aid to Israel was budgeted at $2.04 billion.

Israel made the offer because it does not have the same need for assistance it once did. The foundation of Israel's economy today is strong; still, Israel remains saddled with past debts to the U.S., which, unlike those of Jordan and Egypt, were not forgiven. In addition, Israel still can use American help. The country still has the tremendous financial burden of absorbing tens of thousands of immigrants from the former Soviet Union, a very high rate of unemployment and an alarmingly high number of people who fall below the poverty line. The situation was further exacerbated by the violence of the last two years, which has devastated the tourist industry and all related service sectors of the economy. Furthermore, concessions made in peace negotiations have required the dismantling of military bases and the loss of valuable resources that must be replaced."

That I think is pretty accurate.

The agreement with the Clinton Administration was in 1998. all aid is scheduled to end in 2008. So in 2008 you will be relieved of the need to pay his welfare check, while I will need to pay more.

[Ophra]

Why ask him determinism? He is the ultimate right wing nut job.

Sadly Cato is completely correct ..... Steve is a typical example of our religious right .
See : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154894,00.html
Which is why we must separate religion from State and curb the power of the religious within our political framework.

[SteveK]

Why ask him [SteveK] determinism? He is the ultimate right wing nut job.

"MYTH

“Israel continues to demand large amounts of economic aid even though it is now a rich country that no longer needs help.”

FACT

[...]




Cato,

You can get yourself nominated for next year's Nobel Prize in Economics. But, why are you, Ophra, and Sharonbn even claiming Israel as "your own"?
You are so worried about an Israeli economy, and yet you forget about the fact that an Israeli economy is based on real LAND. LAND is the issue. I guess your (Israeli?) mentality gets warped about these realities by too much luxury time spent in the diaspora. And, you chose Greece? The land of the gods? Are you studying there as an apprentice to be a god? Another atheist god to come and rule the State of Israel? And, demand worship and subservience by the Jews?

Your facts and figures don't address much more serious issues in which the Arabs have not only gained in world acceptance, but also in more Jewish real God given Land being surrendered to them. Do your research here. The Arabs claim ALL THE LAND OF ISRAEL. Yet, you, Ophra, and Sharonbn plan to hold onto your glorious vision of a truncated and dissected atheist State of Israel.

But, Arab charges against this non-Jewish State of Israel are vastly more serious than Israelis just being "nut cases".

You probably also know the facts that the cabinet of the Israeli government voted to help any Israeli with legal defense for charges of war crimes against them in foreign lands. You, Ophra, and Sharonbn have already confirmed in the world's mind the justification of their charges against Israelis through your appeasement and surrender to these Arabs and world whims. The expulsion of Jews by Jews on God given lands, and your continued persecution of Torah communities, only confirms the Arab claims that you, Ophra, and Sharonbn [what are you all anyways?] as murderers, war criminals, and occupiers of Arab land. The Torah observant communities live in your non-Jewish, atheist State of Israel as just being tolerated by you, and giving you "real Israeli" atheist brazen dogs some Jewish credentials when you need them. But, you really need God and Torah and your real Jewish heritage, as a collective conscience in mind, heart, and soul, to justify your claim to the Land of Israel as Jews, and make the world accept that the State of Israel, in the Land of Israel, is justified to be the Jewish Homeland.

But, you all claim that the Land of Israel should be founded as your utopian atheist non-Jewish State of Israel. Do you claim like Ophra to have taken the Land of Israel by the sword and keep it with the sword? If you claim that God and your Jewish heritage for 3,500+ years is really myth, then what claim do you, Ophra, and Sharonbn have to the Land of Israel? If the Torah Communities, through thousands of years of exile, passing the true Jewish heritage, the Hebrew Language, and your ONLY international claim tickets to the Land of Israel,-- is just about "nut cases",--- then how else can you confront these Arabs about your right to ALL THE LAND OF ISRAEL,--- or even to the truncated and dissected parts you want to keep?

Yes, you, Ophra, and Sharonbn should stand up before the world and claim your Land of Israel, as the real Israelis, from just 100 years of conquest,--- and while proclaiming the real Jewish heritage of God and Torah and our ancient right to all the Land of Israel as just folklore, and myth. But, of course, the atheist brazen dogs and uncircumcized Phillistines of the Israeli Government are already proclaiming this to the world, and showing them just how un-Jewish they are by expelling the mythological Jews from their mythological God given Land.

Do you expect that the world will cheer you? The only conclusion is what they have concluded already, and long before, and now even more substantially confirmed, that Israelis are the occupiers of Arab land (all the Land of Israel) and are the murderers who have inherited,--- the war criminals.

The ownership right to the Land of Israel is the issue. The State of Israel needs the Land of Israel to be The State of Israel.

But, you, Ophra, Sharonbn, and your fellow atheist brazen dogs in the Israeli Government only bring world condemnation for Israelis as the murderers who inherited, and not the acceptance as the Jewish People with full rights to the ownership and defense of their ancestral Homeland.

To be that Jewish People with full rights to the ownership and defense of their ancestral Homeland in all the Land of Israel, then the Israelis must acknowledge to the world their full faith in The Living God of Israel, Torah, and their real Jewish heritage passed unbroken for 3,500+ years.

And, you don't lead the real sovereign Jewish Nation toward such a collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul by ordering them to expell Jews from God given Land,--- unless you, Ophra, and Sharonbn are exactly what the Arabs claim you to be as the murderers who also inherited their land,--- the occupiers and war criminals.

[Ophra]

As long as you continue to threaten our Army and abuse our soldiers not to mention threatening our politicians and assassinating our Prime Ministers ...... the more Israelis will join Shinui .... and therefore ultimately you will be responsible for your own downfall and demise.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154894,00.html

[SteveK]

As long as you continue to threaten our Army and abuse our soldiers not to mention threatening our politicians and assassinating our Prime Ministers ...... the more Israelis will join Shinui .... and therefore ultimately you will be responsible for your own downfall and demise.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154894,00.html


Ophra,

Tell that to the Arabs and to the world. I'm sure that the Arabs and the world will then accept you real atheist Israelis,--- as not being occupiers of Arab land (ALL THE LAND OF ISRAEL),---- murderers who inherited,---- war criminals.

Tell the Arabs and the world how your family has taken the Land of Israel with the sword and keeps it with the sword for the last 100 years. "There is no God." That's all you real Israeli atheist brazen dogs can tell the world.

But correction: YOUR DOWNFALL AND DEMISE is imminent in the near future
with a coming national Torah leadership for Israel.

[Ophra]

Ophra,
But correction: YOUR DOWNFALL AND DEMISE is imminent in the near future
with a coming national Torah leadership for Israel.

ROFLMAO :D

Sure Steve ... sure .

I will try to remember to return to this thread after the elections ..... and mock the hell out of you ;)

[SteveK]

ROFLMAO :D

Sure Steve ... sure .

I will try to remember to return to this thread after the elections ..... and mock the hell out of you ;)


Ophra,

Now, or after elections, you and your gang have nothing more convincing to say to the Arabs and the world.

You and your gang have already justified to the world Arab terrorism against Israelis.

You and your gang have already justified to the world a truncated and dissected State of Israel to wobble and hobble along,--- under further and even more intensive Arab demands and terrorism.

Are you sharpening the old family sword, ophra, --- the one you all use to murder and inherit?

National Torah leadership for Israel can get you out of the mess. It's also about the national leadership who can get the collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul to call on The Living God of Israel.

That's what the real Jewish heritage is all about Ophra, the one which gave your grandmother and you their international claim tickets to the Land of Israel.

Your troubles should only be one of mockery from the Arabs, and the world, and not what they justifiably claim against you, and what your type has dragged the Israeli People down to, as the occupiers, murderers who have inherited, and war criminals.

Brazen dog atheist Ophra, your real fight is not against a national Torah leadership,---- it's you against the Arab nations and the world.

Threaten the Arabs and the world with your sharp family sword, dear. It's all you have after only 100 years in the Land. How many centuries were the Arabs here before you? You can't compete with the Arabs with only 1 century here in the Land. And, you have made your own real Jewish heritage of 35 centuries only a myth not to be counted.

Smile for the CNN news cameras, dear, and tell the Arab nations and the world all about your blood stained family sword taking the Land of Israel and keeping it,--- and without any God in Heaven to help you.

[rhodescholar]

Ophra,

Now, or after elections, you and your gang have nothing more convincing to say to the Arabs and the world.

You and your gang have already justified to the world Arab terrorism against Israelis.

You and your gang have already justified to the world a truncated and dissected State of Israel to wobble and hobble along,--- under further and even more intensive Arab demands and terrorism.

Are you sharpening the old family sword, ophra, --- the one you all use to murder and inherit?

National Torah leadership for Israel can get you out of the mess. It's also about the national leadership who can get the collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul to call on The Living God of Israel.

That's what the real Jewish heritage is all about Ophra, the one which gave your grandmother and you their international claim tickets to the Land of Israel.

Your troubles should only be one of mockery from the Arabs, and the world, and not what they justifiably claim against you, and what your type has dragged the Israeli People down to, as the occupiers, murderers who have inherited, and war criminals.

Brazen dog atheist Ophra, your real fight is not against a national Torah leadership,---- it's you against the Arab nations and the world.

Threaten the Arabs and the world with your sharp family sword, dear. It's all you have after only 100 years in the Land. How many centuries were the Arabs here before you? You can't compete with the Arabs with only 1 century here in the Land. And, you have made your own real Jewish heritage of 35 centuries only a myth not to be counted.

Smile for the CNN news cameras, dear, and tell the Arab nations and the world all about your blood stained family sword taking the Land of Israel and keeping it,--- and without any God in Heaven to help you.

This guy is a lunatic. If you dont support the most fanatical religious beliefs, you are an atheist?

Sounds like osama talking about the non-believers, all non-wahhabists.

For you to believe that only the torah gives the jews the right to a homeland - not any political or events in history - and think that all others must think the same, is truly hysterical. And declaring that you "are a better" jew" than others who follow the religious doctrine less than you is severely looked down upon in the jewish religion, and there are many stories of devils passing as jews who did this.

Friend, its the secular that is keeping israel alive, paying its taxes, serving in its armies. etc. It did not go unnoticed that you did not respond to EVEN ONE POINT about this FACT in my earlier (now removed) posts.

Address for us the FACT that is the american jews and secular israelis keeping the religious welfare queens alive, or stop wasting our time here.

Another irony; it was the SECULAR jews around the world who fought for and created zionism and israel - NOT the religious - so your claims that israel only exists because of the religious is even more hysterical.

[rhodescholar]

determinism,

Spiritual:

The identity of the Jews is still a function of institutionalized religion through all the Jewish religious movements and rabbinic dynasties which maintain the diaspora image of building the Land of Israel in the back yard of their suburban ghettos. I don't expect the world to accept Jewish nationalism when the image is still one of just the Jew and religion. That was not the true Jewish heritage,which is one of a sovereign people in their Land of Israel.
Both the State of Israel and the diaspora only strengthen that stereotype of the Jew as a religion. And this plays heavily against the State of Israel because why should one religion need a State? Why should just the Jewish religion be given full sovereignty over Jerusalem? Talking about a "Jewish Homeland" should be annoying to the world because the world sees that millions of Jews are quite happy as Jews with their religion in America and Europe, and so why should these "Zionist" Jews need their own "Jewish" State? Why can't these Zionist Jews share their state with the Arabs and so on. Therefore, Israel has become synonymous as just the refugee Jewish state, and as it's actually related to by these diaspora Jews among themselves. Without a strong attachment and implementation of our true Jewish spiritual heritage, as a united sovereign Jewish nation, the Jews and the atheist "real" Israelis have no real case for taking land away from the Arabs. If millions of American and European Jews are so happy in the diaspora and make even a better Jewish identity with their religion, then we Israeli Zionist Jews could also be happy and absorbed in other lands. The Arabs haven't left the area for centuries. And, the vast majority of the Israelis are only here for less than a hundred years. We all have roots in the diaspora. The Arabs here had no diaspora. So what is the Jewish claim if not what the Torah observant communities have passed for centuries under unspeakable persecutions in their prayers and the true Jewish heritage which has given us our Hebrew Language,and our international claim ticket to all of the Land of Israel. That is what made these diaspora Jews heros. But when the day arrived and their prayers were answered for their unlimited return to their ancestral homeland, then suddenly all the excuses and "God given reasons" not to return. And, those Jews who did return were predominantly those who wanted to build a secular countr, and leave the ghetto mentality of the diaspora.


And, now, we have Israeli and diaspora Jews caving into Arab demands simply because they can't justify the Jewish presence here in Israel as the sovereign Jewish Homeland. And, the Torah communities who passed that true Jewish heritage for centuries have neither been able or allowed by those like Ophra and her atheist gang to unpack their baggage and get set up again for national God fearing and Torah leadership. And, it's not all the fault of those like Ophra. These Torah observant communities and leaders play to the whims of the diaspora Jewish illusions because the diaspora is a big source of their fund raising and market for all the "Jewish heritage" stuff they have for sale. The institutionalized Judaism here in Israel is no different from that in the diaspora. Again, it's no wonder to me why the world questions the real need for a sovereign JEWISH State, with Jerusalem as its undivided capitol, given the Jews' combined behaviour to the contrary here in Israel and in the diaspora.

In the final cold analysis, the Jews are their own worst enemy.

So if the religious attachment to gaza and WB was so strong in religious terms - why did only 8,000 religious israelis move there?

And why are so many of those who do move to the WB are secular? Where are the committed, faithful - and in your eloquent terms, "real" jews - i.e., the relgious orthodox, moving to the WB?

[SteveK]

This guy is a lunatic. If you dont support the most fanatical religious beliefs, you are an atheist?

Sounds like osama talking about the non-believers, all non-wahhabists.

For you to believe that only the torah gives the jews the right to a homeland - not any political or events in history - and think that all others must think the same, is truly hysterical. And declaring that you "are a better" jew" than others who follow the religious doctrine less than you is severely looked down upon in the jewish religion, and there are many stories of devils passing as jews who did this.

Friend, its the secular that is keeping israel alive, paying its taxes, serving in its armies. etc. It did not go unnoticed that you did not respond to EVEN ONE POINT about this FACT in my earlier (now removed) posts.

Address for us the FACT that is the american jews and secular israelis keeping the religious welfare queens alive, or stop wasting our time here.

Another irony; it was the SECULAR jews around the world who fought for and created zionism and israel - NOT the religious - so your claims that israel only exists because of the religious is even more hysterical.


From the Torah communities here will emerge the united National Torah leadership for Israel. They need to address one major issue:

Numbers (15:16):

"There will be one Torah and one law for you and for the convert who lives with you."

[SteveK]

So if the religious attachment to gaza and WB was so strong in religious terms - why did only 8,000 religious israelis move there?

And why are so many of those who do move to the WB are secular? Where are the committed, faithful - and in your eloquent terms, "real" jews - i.e., the relgious orthodox, moving to the WB?


How could the Torah observant communities here in Israel have remained for generations, while you ran to America to suck up the good life, and be sheltered by the defense provided to you by a Christian society?

[Cato]

How could the Torah observant communities here in Israel have remained for generations, while you ran to America to suck up the good life, and be sheltered by the defense provided to you by a Christian society?

Well during Roman Rule all jews permitted to stay in what started out as the Roman Province of Judea but renamed Syria Palestina (Hadrian was angry at the jews for rebelling so consulted his historians on who the jews greatest enemies were and had Judea renamed after them) by the Romans had to accept Roman Citizenship, and swear oaths that they were Romans first, Jews second, and that they were to abide by all Roman Laws (Apart from sacrificing to the Emperor). During the period of Pagan Roman Rule Women actually saw their status go up dramatically since the Romans were much better in terms of womens rights then the ancient Israelis. The laws Rome introduced such as womens rights naturally were contrary to the Torah.

After the end of Pagan Rule which is usually called Byzantine Rule to work jews in what is now Israel and the territories and Jordan were required to get baptised, and have a priest write a confirmation of baptism for them (So the Byzantine Authorities would know that there actually was a baptism). (Again contrary to the Torah).

Under Muslim rule which followed the Byzantines jews had to bow their heads in the presence of Muslims, they had to recognize the superiority of Islam to judaism, they had to pay special protection taxes to Muslims, among many other things they had to do contrary to the Torah.

Under the brief crusader rule jewish families were not permitted to deny their daughters to the christians, while it may seem mild the Torah clearly states that a girl must have her families permission to marry, so once again the jews of this region follow laws contrary to the Torah.

After Crusader Rule it was back to the same thing as Muslim Rule.

Then came English Rule, during which the Arabs held autonamy over areas they were a majority, while jews held autonomy were they were a majority.

Then came Israel.

It seems to me like you Ultra Orthadox Jews who stayed simply gave whatever flatteries and did the same "Un jewish" things that you accuse jews elsewere of doing to me.

[SteveK]

[...]

Then came Israel.

It seems to me like you Ultra Orthadox Jews who stayed simply gave whatever flatteries and did the same "Un jewish" things that you accuse jews elsewere of doing to me.

Cato,

After your long historical recital, and "Then came Israel"...
When will "Then came Cato back to his native Israel" be written in the history books?

Having fun in Greece, "The land chosen by the gods"?

Why not come back to Israel, The Land Chosen by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

But, the real God, in Whom the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe and His Torah, is just a myth for you. Are you taking seminars in Greece to learn to Hellenize Israel for Tommy Lapid and his Shinui Party. You wouldn't be one of their atheist brazen dogs, now would you Cato? I certainly consider you quite a few steps up on the evolutionary scale from Ophra.

[redcake]

Another irony; it was the SECULAR jews around the world who fought for and created zionism and israel - NOT the religious - so your claims that israel only exists because of the religious is even more hysterical.

No, the irony is that this is false, false, false. While Secular Jews, and Jews od all stripe made Israel what it is, through ingenuity, Israel exists because of the religious. It's hysterical.... or really tragic... that it's so unfashionable to recognize Israel's historical timeline in full.

[Ophra]

No, the irony is that this is false, false, false. While Secular Jews, and Jews od all stripe made Israel what it is, through ingenuity, Israel exists because of the religious. It's hysterical.... or really tragic... that it's so unfashionable to recognize Israel's historical timeline in full.

Untrue redcake ..... I have already proven that to you .
rhodescholar is 100% correct.
You never did disprove my historical timeline ;) :)

[SteveK]

No, the irony is that this is false, false, false. While Secular Jews, and Jews od all stripe made Israel what it is, through ingenuity, Israel exists because of the religious. It's hysterical.... or really tragic... that it's so unfashionable to recognize Israel's historical timeline in full.


redcake,

It's tragic that Ophra and her gang of pagan gladiators, atheist brazen dogs, continue to deny, along with their depraved arena spectators like "rhodescholar-spineless-worm", the true historical timeline of Israel,--- because they have brought nothing but international shame on the Israeli People as the the occupiers of Arab land, as the murderers who inherited, and as the war criminals.

The "historical timeline" of Ophra is only as long as the sword of her depraved atheist K9 family, which "took the land and holds the land with no God in Heaven".

But, what's hysterical, is that you diaspora Jews, with all your devout knowledge and understanding of the true historical timeline of Israel, the heritage of God and Torah, still remain in Christian lands and don't unite in your own well known and understood Holy Jewish Homeland,--- to which you are all so connected and such rightful owners for 35 centuries.

[Mediocrates]

But you're a paranoid in your own country among your own people. So who's sicker than who?

[SteveK]

But you're a paranoid in your own country among your own people. So who's sicker than who?

And, you, Medio, the diaspora Jew, with all your neuroses and psychoses about assimilation and anti-semtism? You're the one to judge?
You're the one among the mental patients who claims to be the "doctor".

[Mediocrates]

And, you, Medio, the diaspora Jew, with all your neuroses and psychoses about assimilation and anti-semitism?

I assure you that's completely in your own mind.

You're the one to judge?

Seemingly your're the one who's delusionally held to the belief that he alone is the word of justice. Thanks but no. I've read the words of Moishe and trust me, you're not him.

You're the one among the mental patients who claims to be the "doctor".

You're a Kapo who claims to be one of the prisoners.

[SteveK]

I assure you that's completely in your own mind.



Seemingly your're the one who's delusionally held to the belief that he alone is the word of justice. Thanks but no. I've read the words of Moishe and trust me, you're not him.



You're a Kapo who claims to be one of the prisoners.


Yawn.

[MGB8]

The dangers of infighting. Really, the Arabs should leave Israel alone and it will destroy itself right quick - if not for the pressure of anhiallation...

Meanwhile, Steve, you never took me up on my offer. I think its fair. If I move to Israel, I will be adding likely 3-4 people to the population of Israel. If you have an extra 3-4 kids by having 6, it will be even. Its easy to ask others to sacrifice, ain't it....

[SteveK]

The dangers of infighting. Really, the Arabs should leave Israel alone and it will destroy itself right quick - if not for the pressure of anhiallation...

Meanwhile, Steve, you never took me up on my offer. I think its fair. If I move to Israel, I will be adding likely 3-4 people to the population of Israel. If you have an extra 3-4 kids by having 6, it will be even. Its easy to ask others to sacrifice, ain't it....

MGB8:

Leave the bitter lemon droppings to Medio. Continue with your brilliant, but academic, dissertation posts.

Your own strong Jewish identity should be leading you and your family to Israel. Your own strong Jewish identity should make you see returning to your Jewish Homeland as not a personal sacrifice, but as God's answer to our prayers for 2,000 years.

And, on the issue of Jewish infighting, how many shuls won't your family "ever step into again"?

[Cato]

Cato,

After your long historical recital, and "Then came Israel"...
When will "Then came Cato back to his native Israel" be written in the history books?

Having fun in Greece, "The land chosen by the gods"?

Why not come back to Israel, The Land Chosen by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

But, the real God, in Whom the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe and His Torah, is just a myth for you. Are you taking seminars in Greece to learn to Hellenize Israel for Tommy Lapid and his Shinui Party. You wouldn't be one of their atheist brazen dogs, now would you Cato? I certainly consider you quite a few steps up on the evolutionary scale from Ophra.


I explained so many times, I am in Greece because after a recent outbreak of Greek anti-semitism some parts of the Greek School System (It is seperated into different districts) imported teachers from Israel to help fight anti-semitism (At the urging of the Church actually to anyone who wants to say christianity is the enemy) through the school system. Now that can not be a more important task since so many Greek Exports come to Israel, and so many Israeli Exports go straight to Greece. Compare my job, to your job of being an incompetent fool who dodges the draft.

Yes it is true I am enjoying Greece tremendously thanks, there is nothing like seeing the Greeks reinact the Illiad or Agememnom. Nobody does the great Greek Tragedies, or for that matter Comedies like the Greeks.

I am not an Athiest, and I am for Shimon Peres and Labour who I am hoping will run for Prime Minister and win, since the message Ariel Sharon was needed to send has been recieved all over the world, but after seeing that Ariel Sharon really did change his politics I wouldn't mind Ariel Sharon staying Prime Minister for just one more term (After that if he tries to run again he should be dragged to his ranch and a limit to how many times someone can be elected Prime Minister should be made).

The best things about Israel such as womens rights, and a Representative Democracy comes straight from the Roman Republic. I suppose you want to tear down the Knesset and revoke male female equality SteveK?

Lets face it, your a right wing nut job who damages Israel's attempt to be a jewish state with extremism. Israel is jewish, while being secular and democratic the exact same way England is christian while being secular and democratic and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Ray]

It is splendidly delightful to find ultra nationalists rave and rant and are abusive of US posters like Rhodesscholar on whose money the Cause is dependant to a great extent.

These ultra nationalists must understand how grateful they should be to the US and the Jews of the US and that Israel is still in existance and has been able to weather the various international pressures that has been brought to bear on Israel through its recent history.

If the Diaspora was not there, the ultra would be chanting the holy text of the Koran or would have been operating in a clandestine manner in Iraq against Freedom and Democracy (to put the word "terrorist" it politely)! ;)

But then ungratefulness is the badge of the ultras' tribe!

[SteveK]

It is splendidly delightful to find ultra nationalists rave and rant and are abusive of US posters like Rhodesscholar on whose money the Cause is dependant to a great extent.

These ultra nationalists must understand how grateful they should be to the US and the Jews of the US and that Israel is still in existance and has been able to weather the various international pressures that has been brought to bear on Israel through its recent history.

If the Diaspora was not there, the ultra would be chanting the holy text of the Koran or would have been operating in a clandestine manner in Iraq against Freedom and Democracy (to put the word "terrorist" it politely)! ;)

But then ungratefulness is the badge of the ultras' tribe!


And, I can tell you for a fact that the cows of Texas and Argentina should be very grateful for their homeland in India, where they can always return to avoid slaughter.

[redcake]

Untrue redcake ..... I have already proven that to you .
rhodescholar is 100% correct.
You never did disprove my historical timeline ;) :)


Ophra, all you were trying to prove is that the religious community waited until 1967 to immigrate... you didn't discredit the great precedence that Religous Jews had towards influencing the the principles of a Zionist movement. Furthermore, you never provided a historical timeline of your own contradicting the information I provided.

The fact is, the Israel/Jewishi history books have embraced the Secular Ashkenazic version of things, but that history does not negate a different one where (predominantly Sephardic) Rabbis invented Israel both in early theory and experimentation. To be blunt, anything a secular Jew, or Israeli pioneer went on to popularize, there was likely a Rabbi who proposed it or actually did it first. Any claims that "the Secular Jews" were solely responsible for Israel should be corrected.

[SteveK]

Ophra, [...] Any claims that "the Secular Jews" were solely responsible for Israel should be corrected.

redcake,

Should be corrected???? Ophra's and her atheist brazen dog's discrediting of the Torah observant communities must be corrected and by the national Torah leadership by them here in Israel for the very future of the Jewish Homeland, The State of Israel.

Otherwise, the Israeli Nation will continue to fall victims to the international image of the Israelis "taking the land with the sword and holding it with the sword,... and without a God in Heaven". Thereby, further confirming in the international community that the Israelis are the occupiers, murderers who inherited, and war criminals .... Jewish imposters and invaders who stole Arab land.

Real Torah Jewish leadership for Israel will clean up the tragic state of affairs in which Ophra and her gang of atheist brazen dogs in the Israeli government,
have put the Jewish Homeland into. WE must have here NOW OUR collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul of a truly Jewish Nation for claim and defense to all of our God given Land of Israel.

[redcake]

Thereby, further confirming in the international community that the Israelis are the occupiers, murderers who inherited, and war criminals .... Jewish imposters and invaders who stole Arab land.


That one sentence is VERY true.

I don't think those of us who understand this have managed to articulate just how or why they are adding fuel to the fire.

[ignition00]

It seems that Egypt is also building a anti-terrorist fence:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4354666.stm

Funny that this is described as a "security fence" and not an "arparthide wall"

[MGB8]

That IS funny, and pathetic of the MSM. After all, they could protest that the problem of the fence is the route, but, the route is what makes it arguable a "land grab", but has no impact on whether or not it is an "appartheid wall."

[Cato]

redcake,

Should be corrected???? Ophra's and her atheist brazen dog's discrediting of the Torah observant communities must be corrected and by the national Torah leadership by them here in Israel for the very future of the Jewish Homeland, The State of Israel.

Otherwise, the Israeli Nation will continue to fall victims to the international image of the Israelis "taking the land with the sword and holding it with the sword,... and without a God in Heaven". Thereby, further confirming in the international community that the Israelis are the occupiers, murderers who inherited, and war criminals .... Jewish imposters and invaders who stole Arab land.

Real Torah Jewish leadership for Israel will clean up the tragic state of affairs in which Ophra and her gang of atheist brazen dogs in the Israeli government,
have put the Jewish Homeland into. WE must have here NOW OUR collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul of a truly Jewish Nation for claim and defense to all of our God given Land of Israel.

The second the Torah becomes law 99.9% of all Israelis are going to leave Israel, and it will get conquered.

[SteveK]

The second the Torah becomes law 99.9% of all Israelis are going to leave Israel, and it will get conquered.

Cato,

Where can I find your prophetic Book of Cato?

I will put my trust in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and His
Prophets from my Jewish heritage of 3,500+ years.

The Jewish sages of today say that the Messianic era will be ushered in within our lifetime.

Obviously, the modern State of Israel is a realized prophecy as a decisive pre-requisite to this Torah Nation (and later full Jewish Kingdom).

It's not in any of the prophecies for the Israeli Nation, the JEWISH HOMELAND, to ever be conquered again.

Do you plan to stay in Greece mis-representing your Jewish heritage of 3,500+ years, and teaching from your own prophetic Book of Cato?

[Cato]

"Where can I find your prophetic Book of Cato?"

Read Israel's Declaration of Independence, or you can read On the State by Cicero a brilliant Ancient Roman Republican (One of the last defenders of the Republic to fall infact), perhaps Cicero will be able to teach you something about democracy, unfortunately I think you are such a dim witted fanatic that not even he can convince you of anything.

"I will put my trust in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and His
Prophets from my Jewish heritage of 3,500+ years."

Fanatics like you did a wonderful job getting Israel and Judea destroyed the first time, perhaps that means God frowns on fanatics, the way he is frowning on the Persian Fanatics who are persecuting the mostly secular Persian people.

"The Jewish sages of today say that the Messianic era will be ushered in within our lifetime."

Somebody should drag you into a mental institution.

"Obviously, the modern State of Israel is a realized prophecy as a decisive pre-requisite to this Torah Nation (and later full Jewish Kingdom)."

The modern state of Israel is the result of 650,000 Jews exercising their right to selfe determination and declaring independence from both Britain and Syria, then creating a secular democratic state that recognized Judaism as the State Religion (The way Britain recognizes Christianity as it's state religion), inviting the persecuted jews of the world in, and getting a flood of jewish refugees from the Muslim World and Immigrants from the Europe, not the will of God.

"It's not in any of the prophecies for the Israeli Nation, the JEWISH HOMELAND, to ever be conquered again."

Well considering those same prophecies advised the jews to side with Pompey over Caeser they are not worth very much now are they?

"Do you plan to stay in Greece mis-representing your Jewish heritage of 3,500+ years, and teaching from your own prophetic Book of Cato?"

Well the Greeks have learned not to base their lives on literal interpretation of the bible, which is more then I can say about you.

The Bible is a set of stories and ethical guide lines to live by nothing more, it has been tampered with many times since Moses recieved it.

If you want to see the person who misrepresents jews take a good look in the mirror.

God does not interfere in the affairs of Mortals.

Get it through your head GOD WANTS US TO USE FREE WILL AND FREE THOUGHT, that is why he gave it to us.

I am embaraced about needing to give the exact same arguments Voltaire gave to French Catholic Fanatics in the 18th century to an Israeli in the 21st.

[SteveK]

SteveK to Cato:

"I will put my trust in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and His
Prophets from my Jewish heritage of 3,500+ years."

Cato to SteveK:

Fanatics like you did a wonderful job getting Israel and Judea destroyed the first time, perhaps that means God frowns on fanatics, the way he is frowning on the Persian Fanatics who are persecuting the mostly secular Persian people.

You don't believe in God. Your whole frustrated life and idiotic teachings are rooted in your atheism. If you would take time out from your gross mis-representation of your own ancient Jewish heritage, and actually read it, then you would know that the root cause for all turmoil, destruction, and exiles experienced by the Jewish People was lack of NATIONAL faith in, and service to The Living God of Israel. That's what your style of fanatic leftist atheist leadership has been bringing on the Jewish People, in my Jewish Homeland,--- turmoil, and destruction.

But, guess what?!? The "End of Days" Biblical prophecies are to the complete contrary about any more exiles of the Jewish People from their sovereign JEWISH Homeland. But, there are plenty of indications of turmoil and destruction in some of these prophecies. Negative prophecies can be prevented or mitigated,--- if the Jewish People will eliminate you atheist from leadership of the Israeli Nation, through a NATIONAL TORAH LEADERSHIP.

Or, you can all fly away to Egypt, Greece and Rome, and be free as birds as you wish, and where you can poopoo and peepee on the all the Egyptian, Greek and Roman statues of the great and monumental stone gods which brought the great ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans and their empires to their final ANCIENT chapters of destruction and death.

But, look at my post trailer, dingbat, from the Prophet Malchi: "I, God, have not changed, and you, the Sons of Jacob, have not been destroyed." . Try reading about your own heritage





SteveK to Cato:

"Do you plan to stay in Greece mis-representing your Jewish heritage of 3,500+ years, and teaching from your own prophetic Book of Cato?"

Cato to SteveK:

Well the Greeks have learned not to base their lives on literal interpretation of the bible, which is more then I can say about you.

The Bible is a set of stories and ethical guide lines to live by nothing more, it has been tampered with many times since Moses recieved it.

If you want to see the person who misrepresents jews take a good look in the mirror.

God does not interfere in the affairs of Mortals.

Get it through your head GOD WANTS US TO USE FREE WILL AND FREE THOUGHT, that is why he gave it to us.

I am embaraced about needing to give the exact same arguments Voltaire gave to French Catholic Fanatics in the 18th century to an Israeli in the 20th.

Look up the word "embaraced", you spelled it wrong. I would spell it for you, but the only way that you will learn is to look up the word for yourself in the dictionary.

Voltaire is dead. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is alive. His Torah and His Chosen People are real and LIVING.
You don't believe in God, so don't make Him into your sock puppet. The Living God of Israel wants us to use our free will in faith and service to Him.
When the Jewish People don't do that, then they can expect turmoil, destruction, and exiles. But, again, thanks to God's grace, and certainly not because of our merit, there won't be any more exiles according to the prophecies. Only further turmoil and destruction will come on the Israel Nation until the Jewish People get their free will in sync with faith and service to Him.

Only a NATIONAL TORAH LEADERSHIP for Israel will extricate the Israeli Nation from their turmoil and destruction, and bring to the world the honored image of the Jewish People. You atheist brazen dingbats have only brought turmoil and destruction on the Israeli Nation, and the depraved image of occupiers of Arab lands, murderers who inherited, and war criminals.

You atheist brazen dingbats are the reason that the Israeli Nation hasn't stopped, or really had anyother FREE WILL CHOICE, but to keep appeasing and surrendering to Arab terrorism and gentile anti-semitism.

[Cato]

You don't believe in God. Your whole frustrated life and idiotic teachings are rooted in your atheism. If you would take time out from your gross mis-representation of your own ancient Jewish heritage, and actually read it, then you would know that the root cause for all turmoil, destruction, and exiles experienced by the Jewish People was lack of NATIONAL faith in, and service to The Living God of Israel. That's what your style of fanatic leftist atheist leadership has been bringing on the Jewish People, in my Jewish Homeland,--- turmoil, and destruction.

But, guess what?!? The "End of Days" Biblical prophecies are to the complete contrary about any more exiles of the Jewish People from their sovereign JEWISH Homeland. But, there are plenty of indications of turmoil and destruction in some of these prophecies. Negative prophecies can be prevented or mitigated,--- if the Jewish People will eliminate you atheist from leadership of the Israeli Nation, through a NATIONAL TORAH LEADERSHIP.

Or, you can all fly away to Egypt, Greece and Rome, and be free as birds as you wish, and where you can poopoo and peepee on the all the Egyptian, Greek and Roman statues of the great and monumental stone gods which brought the great ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans and their empires to their final ANCIENT chapters of destruction and death.

But, look at my post trailer, dingbat, from the Prophet Malchi: "I, God, have not changed, and you, the Sons of Jacob, have not been destroyed." . Try reading about your own heritage







Look up the word "embaraced", you spelled it wrong. I would spell it for you, but the only way that you will learn is to look up the word for yourself in the dictionary.

Voltaire is dead. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is alive. His Torah and His Chosen People are real and LIVING.
You don't believe in God, so don't make Him into your sock puppet. The Living God of Israel wants us to use our free will in faith and service to Him.
When the Jewish People don't do that, then they can expect turmoil, destruction, and exiles. But, again, thanks to God's grace, and certainly not because of our merit, there won't be any more exiles according to the prophecies. Only further turmoil and destruction will come on the Israel Nation until the Jewish People get their free will in sync with faith and service to Him.

Only a NATIONAL TORAH LEADERSHIP for Israel will extricate the Israeli Nation from their turmoil and destruction, and bring to the world the honored image of the Jewish People. You atheist brazen dingbats have only brought turmoil and destruction on the Israeli Nation, and the depraved image of occupiers of Arab lands, murderers who inherited, and war criminals.

You atheist brazen dingbats are the reason that the Israeli Nation hasn't stopped, or really had anyother FREE WILL CHOICE, but to keep appeasing and surrendering to Arab terrorism and gentile anti-semitism.

Too dim witted didn't read it.

I learned doing that from the Greeks.

You are roughly as useful to Israel and the jewish people as a a formation of Hoplites are to a modern army.

Edit-Well English is nowere close to being my first language so I have a reason for not spelling everything right, not that it matters on an internet forum.

Here is another Voltaire argument that will you will probably do just as horrible a job trying to descredit.

If God gave humankind the ability to think rationally and make decisions based on facts, yet did not give humankind any evidence he ever existed would he not be pleased with those who come to the conclusion he does not exist and annoyed at those who come to the conclusion he does exist?

[SteveK]

Too dim witted didn't read it.

I learned doing that from the Greeks.

You are roughly as useful to Israel and the jewish people as a a formation of Hoplites are to a modern army.

Edit-Well English is nowere close to being my first language so I have a reason for not spelling everything right, not that it matters on an internet forum.

Here is another Voltaire argument that will you will probably do just as horrible a job trying to descredit.

If God gave humankind the ability to think rationally and make decisions based on facts, yet did not give humankind any evidence he ever existed would he not be pleased with those who come to the conclusion he does not exist and annoyed at those who come to the conclusion he does exist?

Israeli Atheist Brazen Dingbat:

And, after 3,500+ years of unbroken Jewish heritage passed through the generations? In what language do you indoctrinate schoolchildren in Greece
with your perverted interpretations of 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage?

Let's see you stand in your Jewish Homeland with Ophra, while the both of you are smiling at the CNN cameras telling the world how you "took the Land of Israel with the sword and how you hold the Land of Israel with the sword,--- without a God in Heaven to help you.".

But, you might need to await for the resurrection of Voltaire, as your messiah, to convince the world that you Israeli atheist brazen dingbats are not the occupiers of Arab land, murderers who inherited, and war criminals?

I prefer this argument from Napolean:

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

[Mediocrates]

Pay no attention to Steve he's the antiOphra. Two zealots in search of Jews to hate.

[SteveK]

Pay no attention to Steve he's the antiOphra. Two zealots in search of Jews to hate.

Medio,

What started your lunatic binge all over the place? Did Ophra upset you because she said you are a convert to Judaism?

Are you?

If so, for how long?

Why did you convert mid-life? You are in your 40's?

[minusthejihad]

Pay no attention to Steve he's the antiOphra. Two zealots in search of Jews to hate.

You've got quite a point.

[SteveK]

You've got quite a point.

You American converts to Judaism might be good for business for synagogue membership rolls in the diaspora, but you will obviously do nothing for Israel's citizens' registry.

Anyways, I hope you do nothing for Israel's citizen registry,--- unless of course the conversion was through the Orthodox.

[determinism]

Steve,

would you accept a convert to judaism if he moves to Israel?

[minusthejihad]

You American converts to Judaism might be good for business for synagogue membership rolls in the diaspora, but you will obviously do nothing for Israel's citizens' registry.

Anyways, I hope you do nothing for Israel's citizen registry,--- unless of course the conversion was through the Orthodox.

I was born a Jew bro, so you are barking up the wrong tree. And I will go visit next year, but don't plan on staying long term. You by chance don't work in the Real Estate market there do you? You do have quite the agenda.

[SteveK]

Steve,

would you accept a convert to judaism if he moves to Israel?

Only those with Orthodox conversions according to Jewish law.

[SteveK]

I was born a Jew bro, so you are barking up the wrong tree. And I will go visit next year, but don't plan on staying long term. You by chance don't work in the Real Estate market there do you? You do have quite the agenda.


I was quite aware of your birthright, Boobala. I've followed Toga's and your posts on the saga of minusthejihad over the months.

Your enthusiasm for your upcoming trip here overwhelms me.

[Mediocrates]

Contrary to popular belief, not all Jews are money grubbers, steve. For shame you crusader, you.

[SteveK]

Contrary to popular belief, not all Jews are money grubbers, steve. For shame you crusader, you.

I thought that I had the luxury of your having put me on ignore.

Coming from a convert, I suppose that's a compliment.

[Toga]

Steve,

would you accept a convert to judaism if he moves to Israel?

LOL! Are not the European anti-Semites funny? Who cares if Steve or another Jew/non-Jew/monkey accepts a convert or not? Do you think that Steve speaks for all Jews? If a person has undergone a proper conversion it is not up to Steve to decide if that person is Jewish or not.

Ohh..poor nazi scumbags! They are twisted to the core.

[Toga]

Pay no attention to Steve he's the antiOphra. Two zealots in search of Jews to hate.

Yep! You are right! If they could only learn the meaning of Lashen Hora.

[SteveK]

LOL! Are not the European anti-Semites funny? Who cares if Steve or another Jew/non-Jew/monkey accepts a convert or not? Do you think that Steve speaks for all Jews? If a person has undergone a proper conversion it is not up to Steve to decide if that person is Jewish or not.

Ohh..poor nazi scumbags! They are twisted to the core.

Toga,

Are you one of these Reform Jew drecks?

[determinism]

SteveK,

thanks for the answer!


Toga,

are you completely loosing it now?
can you braindead, hatred filled moron comprehend that i simply wanted to know what a religious/orthodox jew thinks about that issue? apparently not.
it hilarious that an ultra hardcore nazi like yourself accuse others of being one.

[chimpsky]

SteveK,

thanks for the answer!


Toga,

are you completely loosing it now?
can you braindead, hatred filled moron comprehend that i simply wanted to know what a religious/orthodox jew thinks about that issue? apparently not.
it hilarious that an ultra hardcore nazi like yourself accuse others of being one.

I love it when some idiot from Austria calls a Jew a nazi! Isn't it ironic?

[determinism]

chimpsky,

I love it when some idiot from Austria calls a Jew a nazi! Isn't it ironic?

toga is considering his race superior and deniying the arabs basic rights. so who is the nazi here? people like you call others nazi for much less than that.

hate filled people like you and him complain about nazi ideology from 60 years ago yet you think 100% as they did.

[genghis_tom]

Give me a break. I absolutely hate it when anything, Jews involved or no, disintegrates into insults using the term Nazi in clever ways.

[chimpsky]

chimpsky,



toga is considering his race superior and deniying the arabs basic rights. so who is the nazi here? people like you call others nazi for much less than that.

hate filled people like you and him complain about nazi ideology from 60 years ago yet you think 100% as they did.

You don't even know me and you better wish you never meet me you little . As far as I'm concerned, scores haven't been settled and there is only one thing that needs to happen to people like you.

[determinism]

Give me a break. I absolutely hate it when anything, Jews involved or no, disintegrates into insults using the term Nazi in clever ways.

it was not me who used that term first.

[chimpsky]

Give me a break. I absolutely hate it when anything, Jews involved or no, disintegrates into insults using the term Nazi in clever ways.

I agree. Its even more insulting for an Austrian to call Jews Nazis. As far as I'm concerned, its like signing your death wish.

[chimpsky]

it was not me who used that term first.

Oh boo hoo, two wrongs don't make a right, but two Nazis usually make more.

[determinism]

You don't even know me and you better wish you never meet me you little . As far as I'm concerned, scores haven't been settled and there is only one thing that needs to happen to people like you.
I agree. Its even more insulting for an Austrian to call Jews Nazis. As far as I'm concerned, its like signing your death wish.

i spit on racist garbage like you. the term nazi fits you to the tee.

[chimpsky]

i spit on racist garbage like you. the term nazi fits you to the tee.

Bring in Bell-End! Hop on Luftwaffe and come pay me a visit sissy.

You are just sore because Zionism is the only national struggle for self-determination that succeeded in the last century, while the others failed. Stop being such a sore looser and beating your wife. :)

[genghis_tom]

"two wrongs don't make a right"

but two Wrights made a plane... :p

[MGB8]

ok. enough.

[chimpsky]

"two wrongs don't make a right"

but two Wrights made a plane... :p

And three rights make a left! :)

[Toga]

I love it when some idiot from Austria calls a Jew a nazi! Isn't it ironic?

Do you expect anything less from that kind?

[genghis_tom]

"ok. enough"

True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, in writing what deserves to be read." --Pliny the Elder

Please?

[determinism]

Bring in Bell-End! Hop on Luftwaffe and come pay me a visit sissy.

You are just sore because Zionism is the only national struggle for self-determination that succeeded in the last century, while the others failed. Stop being such a sore looser and beating your wife.

who the hell is Bell-End?

[Toga]

who the hell is Bell-End?

Don't educate a nazi! Let him pay for the education!

[determinism]

too bad...i thought i could at least learn a new insult from this garbage.

[Mediocrates]

anyway this is done