Good news for conservative and reform Jews: Law of return applies to you!

[sharonbn]

Mazuz: Law of Return applies to all Jewish converts

Attorney General Menachem Mazuz believes that the only legal way to prevent granting Israeli citizenship to persons undergoing a Reform or Conservative conversion in Israel is by changing the Law of Return.

According to the existing situation, a non-Orthodox conversion in Israel is not recognized for matters of civil status.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/469388.html

[Gilgamesh]

Mazuz: Law of Return applies to all Jewish converts

Attorney General Menachem Mazuz believes that the only legal way to prevent granting Israeli citizenship to persons undergoing a Reform or Conservative conversion in Israel is by changing the Law of Return.

According to the existing situation, a non-Orthodox conversion in Israel is not recognized for matters of civil status.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/469388.html

The joke in Israel goes like that: (In a Reform ceremony the cermony leaders says:) "In the name of the father the son and the holy gohst, (doing the cross sign in the air) from now on you are Jewish".

There is a fear that some Reform and ultra reform (what is a reform converstion any way? ) many economic immigrants and just rif raf will "convert" for Israeli citizenship and with no real connection to the Jewish people. Becoming part of us for all the good things and potential enemies for the bad things. Not people that will walk with us through better or worse. Our sense of brotherhood will be ruined once there are people who fail to behave like our brothers, like family. This is the danger in Reform conversion. I very doubt the credability and honesty of the converts.

Judaism is one faith, one history for one people. Not some other church, for yet another religious movement.

[Mediocrates]

I think the real dilemna is that the very definition of Orthodox conversion is left up in the air not the other way around. Lubavitcher for example insist on 'their' version of Orthodox conversion and none other is acceptable even if it is performed by an Orthodox Beit Din and completely within the bounds of OU type Orthodox because - - - what they are after is not really an Orthodox conversion per se but another Frum congregant. One could 'easily' fastpath a Lubavitcher conversion with the right amount of study and with a Rabbi from their approved list of Rabbis but first you would have to become Frum, sell your house to walk to Shul, come to put on Tefillin every day and so on. It in my mind is rather elitist and sets the bar for converts somewhat higher than for everyone else - unattainably high in some cases. If Lubavitch could have a single coherent standard for all, a certified list of Rabbis and Beit Dins they accept and generally some transparency in the process it would go a long way to sorting this problem out. But as long as converts are held to a much higher standard than anyone else the congregations can't expect a lot of support on this.

[KSO]

Can anyone tell me please what is the difference between conservative Jews and Reform Jews?

[Gilgamesh]

I think the real dilemna is that the very definition of Orthodox conversion is left up in the air not the other way around. Lubavitcher for example insist on 'their' version of Orthodox conversion and none other is acceptable even if it is performed by an Orthodox Beit Din and completely within the bounds of OU type Orthodox because - - - what they are after is not really an Orthodox conversion per se but another Frum congregant. One could 'easily' fastpath a Lubavitcher conversion with the right amount of study and with a Rabbi from their approved list of Rabbis but first you would have to become Frum, sell your house to walk to Shul, come to put on Tefillin every day and so on. It in my mind is rather elitist and sets the bar for converts somewhat higher than for everyone else - unattainably high in some cases. If Lubavitch could have a single coherent standard for all, a certified list of Rabbis and Beit Dins they accept and generally some transparency in the process it would go a long way to sorting this problem out. But as long as converts are held to a much higher standard than anyone else the congregations can't expect a lot of support on this.

You are right. Israel must formulate an agreeable method of conversion. A test and a closed books list, required for conversion. A list of Rabbies also a good idea...

You don't have to be Frum (very religiouse) to convert succesfuly. There are other orthodox streams, like the religious Zionists (followers of Rabbi Cook), who are not "Frum", just religious (traditional, neeted Kippah).

There are options. I am not saying the Orthodox conversion should be the only conversion, I am saying that the whole process of conversion must be regulated by the goverment. Even to the point of tests in hebrew and studies of certain books (like the book of the Kuzari, for instance). So a convert can answer the qestion of why he thinks Judaism is better for HIM. ("Because Jesus was Jewish" must not be the answer).

[Gilgamesh]

Can anyone tell me please what is the difference between conservative Jews and Reform Jews?

In a word, the consevative only break the tradions. Not the Ha'lacha.
The reform... well, other then crosses and icons, they got every thing else.
The reform ideology is mostly refered to combating anti semetism by protraying Judaism as an extrem unitarian church. To blur the lines and differences between jews and christians. The most extremist Reforms are almost christians ("Jews for Jesus" and other staff like it).

[KSO]

In a word, the consevative only break the tradions. Not the Ha'lacha.
The reform... well, other then crosses and icons, they got every thing else.
The reform ideology is mostly refered to combating anti semetism by protraying Judaism as an extrem unitarian church. To blur the lines and differences between jews and christians. The most extremist Reforms are almost christians ("Jews for Jesus" and other staff like it).
Thanks.
But I know some facts about the reform movement, but know almost nothing about the conservative one.

and we all probably know the ancient woody allen joke: My Synagogue is reformic, the head Rabby is an antisemite...

[Mediocrates]

Reform is out of the German assimilationist tradition which attempted to make Judaism more in alignment with the other quasi-secular streams of Protestantism in Germany at the time. It was borne out of the Enlightenment and basically set forth a new kind of Judaism which is more internal than anything else. That is, the practice of Judaism is pretty minor. All liturgy is in the vernacular - men and women are given exactly equal rights and the focus is on social welfare.

Conservative was a response to that. They believed Reform went too far and became as Gil notes little more than social clubs or Unitarian fellowships. Conservative went back to Hebrew liturgy and generally more traditional practices though driving to shul is no longer a restriction I believe. I also don't believe they worry that much about mikvah (ritual cleanliness). Some Conservatives are egalitarian which provide equal rights and responsibilities to women, some do not. Some Conservative congregations may have Orthodox Rabbis. Either Reform or Conservative can have women Rabbis though it is far less prevalent in Conservative.


Check out the Shamash website for a concise explanation for most of the key issues in Judaism.

http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/index.html

[barbarany_9]

Mediocrates to the rescue with actual information.

PHEW! :cool:

[#13]

Conservatives do not follow Halacha, Reform make up their own Halacha.

To convert to Judaism one has to live according to Shulchan Aruch, Halacha even before conversion to confirm that this is not just a fluke.

Selling a house to move to a walking distance to Shul is just part of being an observant Jew.

Israeli givernment is not a Jewish organization, it is secular, while being Jewish and Judaism is a religion.

[KettleWhistle]

Being Jewish is an ethnic idenity. Israeli govenment is certainly a Jewish organization, as it is ruling the Jewish state.

[#13]

Only Judaism connects all Jews, ethnically we are all very different.

Israel is a state with a Jewish majority situated on Jewish land, but the state itself isn't Jewish anymore then it would have been in Uganda with a Jewish majority. Jewish majority describes the state of Israel, not defines it.

[Mediocrates]

Conservatives do not follow Halacha, Reform make up their own Halacha.

To convert to Judaism one has to live according to Shulchan Aruch, Halacha even before conversion to confirm that this is not just a fluke.

Selling a house to move to a walking distance to Shul is just part of being an observant Jew.

Israeli givernment is not a Jewish organization, it is secular, while being Jewish and Judaism is a religion.

No Mitzvoth are any more important than any other. It smacks a little bit of elitism or cherry picking for the Rabbis to ascribe a hierarchy to this or that. If I don't shake the Lulav am I not a Jew? See that's my point.

[#13]

I am not seeing your point, seeling the house so one can walk to shul and taking a lulav are both obligatory.

However, if someone lives in an area without a shul at all and cannot move he can also convert, but he or she would have to move to an observant community for a while for screening...

[KettleWhistle]

Only Judaism connects all Jews, ethnically we are all very different.

Israel is a state with a Jewish majority situated on Jewish land, but the state itself isn't Jewish anymore then it would have been in Uganda with a Jewish majority. Jewish majority describes the state of Israel, not defines it.

Judaism does not connect atheist, agnostic, and otherwise secular Jews. And great many of these Jews have strong ties, feelings of brethrenhood, and responsibility for each other. It is true, Israel isn't a Judaistic state, and thank God for that. But despite the best effort of the leftist enemy, this is still the Jewish State, on the Jewish ancestoral land.

[#13]

Judaism does not connect atheist, agnostic, and otherwise secular Jews. And great many of these Jews have strong ties, feelings of brethrenhood, and responsibility for each other. It is true, Israel isn't a Judaistic state, and thank God for that. But despite the best effort of the leftist enemy, this is still the Jewish State, on the Jewish ancestoral land.

Judaism connects all those who enter the Covenant themselves and those who have entered the Covenant by being born into a Jewish Home, Jewish mother, at least, no matter what they do or think. Just like an American can be a russian spy and still maintan his American status. The few Jews that could truly claim no connection to Judaism, not even traditionally or culturally would consider Gentiles or Gentile relatives equally dear and important.

The land is not really Jewish other then according to Judaism. The Jews have had a government in the Land for a very short time in between the exiles. And to begin with Arabs have more ancestral claim to it being descendents of the nations of the land of Canaan, as well as descendents of Yishmael...

[Yala]

Only Judaism connects all Jews, ethnically we are all very different.

Judaism is more than a religion. Racially, we are different but ethnically we are the same. Judaism is an ethnicity.

[Yala]

And to begin with Arabs have more ancestral claim to it being descendents of the nations of the land of Canaan, as well as descendents of Yishmael...

LOL, Arabs are originally from Arabia(current day Saudi Arabia). The First Jewish king of Israel(Shaul) was in 1020 B.C.E., predating Arab conquest of the holy land by approx. 16 centuries.

Furthermore, Canaan was roughly ancient Lebanon, a country that did not even consider itself an Arab country until the Taef accords in 1989 and to this day half of the Lebanese population do not consider themselves Arab. Just b/c Arabs invaded the Middle East including hte areas encompassing Israel and Lebanon, etc does not give them "ancestral claims."

[#13]

Judaism is more than a religion. Racially, we are different but ethnically we are the same. Judaism is an ethnicity.

I am beginning to see the reason for the discomfort converts cause to some jews.

Judaism is a religion that is the bases for ethnicity among jews. Without the religion you are referring to Israelis or Amercan Jews, etc who are different ethnic groups united only by connection to a common religion ether through ancestry or through conversion.

[#13]

LOL, Arabs are originally from Arabia(current day Saudi Arabia). The First Jewish king of Israel(Shaul) was in 1020 B.C.E., predating Arab conquest of the holy land by approx. 16 centuries.

Furthermore, Canaan was roughly ancient Lebanon, a country that did not even consider itself an Arab country until the Taef accords in 1989 and to this day half of the Lebanese population do not consider themselves Arab. Just b/c Arabs invaded the Middle East including hte areas encompassing Israel and Lebanon, etc does not give them "ancestral claims."

And to begin with Arabs have more ancestral claim to it being descendents of the nations of the land of Canaan, as well as descendents of Yishmael...

They didn't just invade but intermarry and infiltrate the natives become an indeginous nation with them thereby claiming the land not only as a conquest but as an inheritance.

About Canaan been roughly ancient Lebanon.... Source please?

[#13]

Aside from invasion, Jews have only one claim to the Holy Land, the Word of G-d. Believe it or not... :p

[Yala]

Aside from invasion, Jews have only one claim to the Holy Land, the Word of G-d. Believe it or not... :p

That's your opinion.



About Canaan been roughly ancient Lebanon.... Source please?

Ultimately, the Hebrew Bible identifies Canaan (Hebrew: ...., Knaan) with the coastal city of Sidon, in modern Lebanon. This city dominated the Mediterranean coast and enjoyed wide hegemony over a number of ethnic groups, who are said to belong to the "Land of Canaan". The part of the book of Genesis often called the Table of Nations describes the Canaanites as being descended from a personifying ancestor called Canaan, saying (Genesis 10:15–19):

Canaan is the father of Sidon, his firstborn; and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgaes, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites, and Hamathites. Later the Canaanite clans scattered, and the borders of Canaan reached [across the Mediterranean coast] from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then [inland around the Jordan Valley] toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.



I found this in Wikipedia but in any case I always thought this was common knowledge, especially to Jews.

[#13]

That's your opinion.




Ultimately, the Hebrew Bible identifies Canaan (Hebrew: ?????????, Knaan) with the coastal city of Sidon, in modern Lebanon. This city dominated the Mediterranean coast and enjoyed wide hegemony over a number of ethnic groups, who are said to belong to the "Land of Canaan". The part of the book of Genesis often called the Table of Nations describes the Canaanites as being descended from a personifying ancestor called Canaan, saying (Genesis 10:15–19):

Canaan is the father of Sidon, his firstborn; and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgaes, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites, and Hamathites. Later the Canaanite clans scattered, and the borders of Canaan reached [across the Mediterranean coast] from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then [inland around the Jordan Valley] toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.

I found this in Wikipedia but in any case I always thought this was common knowledge, especially to Jews.

Before they scattered or later, the Jews weren't there first and the land was referred to as the land of Canaan... You got to get your head out of semantics. You are drowning in it.

[Yala]

Before they scattered or later, the Jews weren't there first and the land was referred to as the land of Canaan... You got to get your head out of semantics. You are drowning in it.

I never said the Jews were there before the Cananites, I said they were there before the Arabs. That is a fact except to Arab propagandists. Cananites are for the most part Phoenicians, mixed with some Arab and Europeans invaders:

Genetics

Genetic research using Y-chromosome haploid analysis has identified a Phoenician genetic marker (a so-to-speak "Canaanite gene") among modern Lebanese populations, including among Maronite Christians and Shiite Muslims, especially near the coast.[9] Initial findings evidence the modern Lebanese gene pools comprise indigenous Canaanites, followed by immigration waves from Arabs, Crusader Europeans, and Seljuk Turks. The American University of Beirut launched the Phoenician genographic project to precisely map the genetic makeup of the Lebanese population and even the Mediterranean populations where ancient Canaanites colonized. A high-frequency of the Canaanite gene has even been detected in Malta, an island that Phoenicians colonized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians

[Yala]

I am beginning to see the reason for the discomfort converts cause to some jews.



I am not discomforted by converts in the least.

[#13]

Yalla Yala,

You seem to want to take things everything into its comprising details divesting the whole of its meaning.

I have read things in order and answered accordingly.

Your genetics quote only shows that Arabs have intermixed with these people; and today have become their main representatives.

Arabs claims have heredetary validity since they have not only invaded but intermixed with the ancient nations of the Holy Land.

Jews have only invasion validity since we have not intermixed.

1-2 They win, unless you are like me with that religious belief opinion, as you put it....

[#13]

I never said the Jews were there before the Cananites, I said they were there before the Arabs. That is a fact except to Arab propagandists. Cananites are for the most part Phoenicians, mixed with some Arab invaders and Europeans:

Genetics

Genetic research using Y-chromosome haploid analysis has identified a Phoenician genetic marker (a so-to-speak "Canaanite gene") among modern Lebanese populations, including among Maronite Christians and Shiite Muslims, especially near the coast.[9] Initial findings evidence the modern Lebanese gene pools comprise indigenous Canaanites, followed by immigration waves from Arabs, Crusader Europeans, and Seljuk Turks. The American University of Beirut launched the Phoenician genographic project to precisely map the genetic makeup of the Lebanese population and even the Mediterranean populations where ancient Canaanites colonized. A high-frequency of the Canaanite gene has even been detected in Malta, an island that Phoenicians colonized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians

Incidentally, just sent two of my guests on their way to Malta... Coincidence??? I think not...

[#13]

I am not discomforted by converts in the least.

I was referring to KW...

[Yala]

Yalla Yala,

You seem to want to take things everything into its comprising details divesting the whole of its meaning.

I have read things in order and answered accordingly.

Your genetics quote only shows that Arabs have intermixed with these people; and today have become their main representatives.

Arabs claims have heredetary validity since they have not only invaded but intermixed with the ancient nations of the Holy Land.

Jews have only invasion validity since we have not intermixed.

1-2 They win, unless you are like me with that religious belief opinion, as you put it....

Except that Jews & their decendants have always lived in the area(for 2,000+ years), in the Jewish quarter especially, and were not the majority but then again the holy land was sparsely inhabited and this has been historically documented, most notably by Mark Twain. The state of Israel has a lot of legitimacy you see and I choose not to use the Bible as evidence to our claim(even though I do believe it).

[#13]

Agreed Jews have lived in the Holy Land for a long time, but so have others I generalize by the name Arabs..

2-3 They are still winning since they intermixed with natives and we didn't.

[#13]

Except that Jews & their decendants have always lived in the area(for 2,000+ years), in the Jewish quarter especially, and were not the majority but then again the holy land was sparsely inhabited and this has been historically documented, most notably by Mark Twain. The state of Israel has a lot of legitimacy you see and I choose not to use the Bible as evidence to our claim(even though I do believe it).


If you start with Avraham more like 3700 years...

[Yala]

Agreed Jews have lived in the Holy Land for a long time, but so have others I generalize by the name Arabs..

2-3 They are still winning since they intermixed with natives and we didn't.

Yes, and these Arabs you keep mentioning have 22 countries which span the vast majority of the Middle East and parts of Africa...but Jews, Kurds, Phoenicians should give up their histories and live as dhimmis under Arabs? You need to rid yourself of this ghetto mentality. 2-3,1-2, I don't care, Jews have lived in the holy land for 3700 years as you say, and therefore we are entitled to our own sovereignty in the land of our forefathers and not just b/c Hashem said so.

Winning shminning, they live under brutal dictatorships and bask in ignorance. If that is a victory to you then G-d help you.

[#13]

The reason these Arabs have so many states is that they believe G-d gives them these lands and nations....

And that is the one we keep on losing...

[#13]

Yala,

L'Chaim!

I agree with you, it's our land.

[Yala]

The reason these Arabs have so many states is that they believe G-d gives them these lands and nations....

And that is the one we keep on losing...


Can't argue here, I believe you are right.

[#13]

So how is the weather in California???

Hailed in Rome yesterday...

Cloudy in Capri...

[Yala]

So how is the weather in California???

Hailed in Rome yesterday...

Cloudy in Capri...

Beautiful as always, although I really hate the place....How long are you going to be in Italy for? I've been to Italy once, beautiful country, nice people. How do you like it so far?

[#13]

Home sweet home... I love it here.

[Yala]

Home sweet home... I love it here.

lucky :)

[KettleWhistle]

Before they scattered or later, the Jews weren't there first and the land was referred to as the land of Canaan... You got to get your head out of semantics. You are drowning in it.

Every nation-state exists in place where its people were not the first to be there. Israel is no different. I think the only semantic games people are drowning in are the ones that you are playing.

[#13]

Time will tell...

[#13]

Semantics are only proper when they clarify and deepen the original meaning.

The difference with Jews is that after conquering they have not intermixed, losing out on the ineritance from the natives.

At least now we are clarifying that conquest is not a bad thing. Now how to make a successfull conquest and remain a separate entity with a conquered nation around.... That is the question...

[Mediocrates]

I am not seeing your point, seeling the house so one can walk to shul and taking a lulav are both obligatory.

However, if someone lives in an area without a shul at all and cannot move he can also convert, but he or she would have to move to an observant community for a while for screening...

But it is selective. I'm sure you know plenty of Jews who while keeping a kosher home would probably not meet the standards of a Chabad Rabbi. I'm sure you plenty of Jews (Orthodox) who don't daven three times every day. But whether they are 100% observant is really neither here nor there. It's a wonderful sentiment in Chabad to think of the "Not Yet" approach - do you put on tefillin, "Not Yet", do you let your beard grow, "Not Yet", do you have 2 beds in your bedroom per family purity, "Not Yet" and so on. These are admirable goals, but you can see that in Chabad one must FEEL it not just obey. One must want to feel it. The sense of it is that if you FEEL you want to, you will try to conform, even if you don't fully understand it.

So, if that's the basic truth of it, then why would they cherry pick about which mitzvoth they are absolutely going to be inflexible on. I'll give you some examples: on 3 separate occasions I've brought them tefillin to get their sign off. Every single time they said no. The second set was replaced with a new set from them. But in the last case I accidentally tricked them. I pulled the second set off the shelf and showed them one that came from them. We would have all been better off if they just stated they have an arbitrary standard and all tefillin have to come from them every single time.

You see? I have no problem with random rules, let's just call them that.

[#13]

I am still very confused...

What happened with 3 sets of Tefillin??? What signs??? To what they said no???

About the not yet approach.... That applies to those who are already Jewish, but those who want to be Jewish have to be fully observant. Like when I became an american, I was screened to fully comply with many immigration laws for refugees, many were not accepted. However, once I am an american, if I get involved with lawlessness, I will be rehabilitated, but am allready an american... So once one is a Jew, Chabad uses the best approach possible in awakening the fire in their souls, always learning and improving, however, with an interested Gentile, in most cases the Gentile has to realize that he or she can be perfect to G-d without being Jewish, but to be Jewish the Gentile would automatically follow everything that goes with the Covenant, because that is the sign that he or she has a soul compatible for conversion....

[KettleWhistle]

Semantics are only proper when they clarify and deepen the original meaning.
No, semantics are usually used for the purpose playing games and confusing people. Like what you are doing. This a typical behavior of various rabbis as well. Instead of conversing like normal human beings, they usually avoid giving you a straight answer, and instead start going into some or other jabberwocky story.


At least now we are clarifying that conquest is not a bad thing.
"We" are not clarifying anything. You are continuing to play your games and are making some random assertions out of thin air.

And to address this gem:

Conservatives do not follow Halacha, Reform make up their own Halacha.
You Halaha was made up by a bunch of people.

[#13]

KW,

I do not evade questions and try my best to deal with topics in the most direct way possible.

Please bring some source, references, or proofs for your statements and beliefs unless you think that your views are obvious truths, in which case you are a self absorbed delusional ignoramus.