France's Le Pen Effect - Part 2

[Vic]

Originally posted by Morpheus
There's NO anti-semitism in Europe.
BS

[Morpheus]

OK, but if you think in the US you'll find less anti-semitism you're wrong. Most Americans will support Israel, but that doesn't mean they like them. They just hate muslims because of 9-11.

[christian]

Originally posted by Vic

Oh really?

Most of the american jews in the forum is funny. You keep saying European is anti-semtism. Which is ridicules.

France Finance minister Fabius, George Soros( famous finacier),
Michael Howard British Home Secretary (1993-1997) ,Malcolm Rifkind -- British Foreign Secretary (1995-1997),Robert Briscoe -- Lord Mayor of Dublin, Ireland,Bruno Kreisky -- Chancellor of Austria, 1971-84,Pierre Mendes-France -- Prime Minister of France, 1954-5, Leon Blum -- The first Socialist (and the first Jewish) premier of France



Check out this website. Half of official is jewish European officials. This is just tip of the Iceberg. There are many influential jewish European, behind the scenes of Europe.

http://www.yahoodi.com/famous/diapol1.html

Let's put it this way, the jews in Europe is better represented than Arabs. Ok. One or two arabs is influential in EU. Big Deal! They are probably just backbenchers. There are few poweful jewish people, participating the events of UN and EU. You guys are just ignoring the facts.

[Vic]

Originally posted by christian
Most of the american jews in the forum is funny. You keep saying [...]
Take a look at my "Location"

[christian]

Originally posted by Vic

Take a look at my "Location"
Well. How can you explain the people on the top is jewish people? Not arabs or blacks or etc???

Did you surf the website? Half of them is very poweful jewish officials. If europe is pursuing anti-semitism. The France finance minster won't have his job.

By the way, German foreign minister Joscher Ficher is a jewish origin. I think you will have a hard time, convincing people germany is anti-semitism.

[Morpheus]

What do you think is themain reason the EU doesn't want to impose sanctions on Israel? Because Germany is opposing, it does not want to get the impression of being anti-semite. The German gov't is horrified of being accused of anti-semitism. With such a past, you can already imagine why.

But to quote Lenny in the Simpsons (an American TV-show which all Europeans seem to like, even more than the average American).

The Germans? Sure, they made some mistakes in the past. But that's why pencils got erasers.

[Mediocrates]

It's probably far simpler than that. It has to do with placating 3000 different agendas. I have no doubt that all the EU bureaucrats like the idea generally, of sanctions as long as someone else's local constituents are affected. But as soon as you tell your local steel mill or engine factory they can't sell something then they have to escalate the argument into the stratosphere of the higher moral ground and similar abstract yet meaningless concepts.

[Vic]

Originally posted by christian

Well. How can you explain the people on the top is jewish people? Not arabs or blacks or etc???
Racism doesn't exclude antisemitism and vice versa.
Did you surf the website? Half of them is very poweful jewish officials. If europe is pursuing anti-semitism. The France finance minster won't have his job.

Nonsense. Are Powell and Rice proof of the fact that there is absolutely no racism in the USA?

Btw. - as for blacks - they have just elected one, Joao Varela, former vice to Pim Fortuyn, in the Netherlands.

By the way, German foreign minister Joscher Ficher is a jewish origin.
He isn't. The name is Joschka Fischer, in case you are interested.

[Vic]

As usual, no one has put it better:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3818/wdyt_3818.html

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vic

Racism doesn't exclude antisemitism and vice versa.

Nonsense. Are Powell and Rice proof of the fact that there is absolutely no racism in the USA?

You forgot to mention. They are black. The jewish people is not black. They are white people, locating in a large white population. If I walk down the street. I wouldn't recognize you are a jew. Even I know your name from your name card. I wouldn't know you are a jews.

Most of the racism in europe is directed at visible minority. Let me put it this way. Have you ever suffer racisim? I suffer more racisim than you do. I bet. Unless, you wear a rabbi clothing everyday. Then there is a few neo-nazi hooligan, will identify you. People can identify me as a visible minority in N. America. However, most of the jewish people is modern secular class. Like Fabius, you don't know he is a jews. If he never tells you.

In order words, the jews in Eu and N. America is well represented than most visible minority. If you go to N. America, there are not many Black people on the top jobs. Ok. Colin Powell and Rice have the top jobs. It is just one or two black minority. There are still many racisim against the blacks in N. America.(like prison sentence, jobs, etc.)

Btw. - as for blacks - they have just elected one, Joao Varela, former vice to Pim Fortuyn, in the Netherlands.

He isn't. The name is Joschka Fischer, in case you are interested.

Ok. You might be right. I read some articles about him. They briefly mention he is a jewish origin. May be the article is not accountable.

[L@mplighterM]

An Oriental suffering from racism in China that’s a good one.

[christian]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
An Oriental suffering from racism in China that’s a good one.

Yeah. A "stupid"= "Lamp" is twisting my words. That is a good one.

[Morpheus]

Fact is: we don't see jews as a minority. Racism has nothing to do with religion. Racism is exclusion of races like the Arabs, the Black people. Jews is a not a race: you have 'white' Jews, Arab Jews and even black Jews. Is there a world like anti-christinianity? anti-islam? No, because you should keep religions and races separated.

Christian has made some excellent remarks there. Indeed, it's Joschka Fischer, but as a foreigner coming from China, I have to admire your knowledge on the field of European politicians. Unlike some other "stupid = ..." members on this board you know what you're talking about.

[takeo]

that's right

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
What do you think is themain reason the EU doesn't want to impose sanctions on Israel? Because Germany is opposing, it does not want to get the impression of being anti-semite. No, Morpheum.
The EU doesn't want to place sanctions on Israel because Israel buys 3 times more goods from Europe than Europe buys from Israel. The EU wants to maintain this profitable trade imbalance.

European values (or lack of) is one thing. Making money is quite another.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
No, Morpheum.
The EU doesn't want to place sanctions on Israel because Israel buys 3 times more goods from Europe than Europe buys from Israel. The EU wants to maintain this profitable trade imbalance.

European values (or lack of) is one thing. Making money is quite another.
Not just that. It is the last leverage Europe has against Israel, and it looks as if they have decided to keep it for time being. Threatening Israel is more fun and more popular with certain voter groups. On the contrary, once trade sanctions are imposed there is nothing more to talk about, and some European governments would have to turn to the domestic problems they dread so much.

[takeo]

actually israel is not so much a concern in Europe, people are not dreaming about the middle Eastern conflict. Europe wants to try all diplomatic solutions instead of imposing such a dramatic decision. besides that some countries as great-brittain (partnership with the US) and Germany (its past) will resist.
But actually europeans are not so much concerned about trade with israel, which is only a small percentage of its mediterranean trade (much more with arab countries).
For israel however, Europe is the most important trade partner, both export and import, and it is also the ONLY (besides turkey) trade partner in the vicinity of israel. That's why those ideas are really making israel very nervous (instead of the usual european condemnations which doesn't have a great impact)

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Vic
Not just that. It is the last leverage Europe has against Israel, and it looks as if they have decided to keep it for time being. Threatening Israel is more fun and more popular with certain voter groups. On the contrary, once trade sanctions are imposed there is nothing more to talk about, and some European governments would have to turn to the domestic problems they dread so much.
Vic, well said. I'm sure you're exactly correct.

[elke]

I thought this article very interesting. It seems to explain why LePen and other "conservatives" fascinated so many.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1022691065340

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by elke
I thought this article very interesting. It seems to explain why LePen and other "conservatives" fascinated so many.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1022691065340


Here is how I look at it. In modern Europe, the only way to preserve one's national identity is to subsume most of it under the banner of Europeanism. That is, there's more to be gained in being more European than there is to be lost in being less Irish (or Spanish or French or what have you). In this sense one's national identity becomes a brand. I am 'Irish' I am 'Belgian' and one knows what that means. But how things get done, the products they buy, the services they use, the laws they obey...are all European and attempt to carry with them no national baggage. But to ascribe this national submergence to the rise of the EU is getting it backwards. For example, in Ireland, there was tremendous populist pressure to tear up the existing birth control laws, to permit divorce, to eliminate the legal power of the Catholic church and so on, whether those were preconditions to joining the EU or not. Now that those changes have been affected, what remains to being Irish is not legal or religious entity or even a cultural one anymore, but merely an historical one. One of branding. I'm positive the same thing is true in other EU countries as well. I think this is part of the popular resistance to all American cultural objects. They have their own. What they don't admit though is that they are not grounded in nationalism, local history or culture. They are their own mega-brands.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Vic
Not just that. It is the last leverage Europe has against Israel, and it looks as if they have decided to keep it for time being. Threatening Israel is more fun and more popular with certain voter groups. On the contrary, once trade sanctions are imposed there is nothing more to talk about, and some European governments would have to turn to the domestic problems they dread so much.


I think it's dangerous to underestimate this. Just like in the US, the EU believes it is beholden to OPEC. Coupled with their long track record of anti Semitism and UN sanctioned legal indignation there is at least a real possibility that they could always follow through on their threats. The EU believes that actions like this are in fact their only foreign policy tool in some spheres. They're not going to send troops anywhere. They tremble in fear at the House of Saud. What's left? Money.

How many Euros can they spend or withold to make a point? The aggregate economy of the EU has more or less stagnated for nearly a decade.

Unemployment is up. There are the first faint stirrings of what inthe US we call Libertarianism - low taxes, fewer services, smaller government.

EU membership makes prices rise. The EU is marginally recessionary in its structure and intent. And even though the Euro has risen in relation to the US Dollar about 7% in recent weeks it is still far below the $US1.19 peg originally set which corresponds to a ~19% currency deflation.

So with all of these factors in play, EU countries make a stand for economic and political relevance in shun Israel, because with all of their problems, it's kind of ecnomically invisible to thei own countries to do so.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think this is part of the popular resistance to all American cultural objects.

And yet, of course, the whole concept of the EU is just a model to mimick the United States.

[takeo]

"they tremble in fear at the House of Saud."

LOL


"How many Euros can they spend or withold to make a point? The aggregate economy of the EU has more or less stagnated for nearly a decade. "

the 90's were a period of economic growth in the eu, some countries as Spain, Portugal and ireland grew specatcular with average annual economic growth of 7%.


"nemployment is up. There are the first faint stirrings of what inthe US we call Libertarianism - low taxes, fewer services, smaller government. "

unemployment has diminished in te last 7 years in almost all EU-countries;

Europe is entitled to have an own policy independant of the hegemon, for example concerning israel, latin-america, the Arab world, East asia, Africa, eastern Europe, etc. that is what most Europeans want, still there is a long way to go to reach a unified european foreign policy. Most countries except GB are usually on the same stance however. I hope Europe will soon have an own military force too, independant of NATO.

The EU has not the ambition to become some kind of US of Europe... the cultural and economical differences between the countries are too large, just cooperation in all possible fields.

[Mediocrates]

And certainly they are and should pursue their own agenda. But as far as mounting a credible global military force, I'm afraid the days of empire have passed for you.

I was just reading today that on average, product and service compliance with one of the innumerable EU standards like the length of a bread loaf of the number of seats on a bus adds ~3% to the top line cost of that product or service. Delta cost for which there is no predictable benefit. Oh there may be one, someday, just not yet and no one knows how to gauge it.

Employment? Spotty. Ireland is in a much better place now then they were 15 years ago with 15+% unemployment. UK is flat and my relatives in France tell me employment has stagnated there. Germany is precariously close the situation Japan found itself in 12 years ago - a kind of permanent recession. In fact you in the EU may see a dependence not only on OPEC oil but on Arab country banks, financial services and government lending to offset your own financial long term structural flatness.

[Mediocrates]

"The EU has not the ambition to become some kind of US of Europe... the cultural and economical differences between the countries are too large, just cooperation in all possible fields"


I agree - but who says otherwise? At any rate why would your bureaucrats trade unrestricted power for the ballot box? If nothing else the EU-o-crats sit in unelected, almost unaccountable power and splendor. Who would give that away?

[takeo]

there are direct elections for the eu-parliament, while the European commission is composed of the elected governments of every member-nation.
i don't know about unemployment of ireland, but it's for sure the bnp of ireland almost doubled in the 90's, it was known as the "celtic tiger", now the growth stagnated somewhat, but not much.
the same about france, unemployment diminished sharply during the 90's, now it has stagnated, not increased.
The german economy suffered somewhat of the reunification, but not much, Germany is still an extremely wealthy country, even compared to France, and the economy is still growing.
in fact the Arab financial impact on European markets is very small, the influence of eastern asia is growing, while american influence is still large.