Hydrogen-powered cars--not much to be excited about

[KettleWhistle]

Since the issue came up a few times, I decided to make this post. Like many, I was initially excited at the prospect of hydrogen powered vehicles. It seemed like a good way to lessen our dependence on Arab oil, until I learned better. Industrially, hydrogen is made in two ways: (1) By applying electric current (electricity) to water, and (2) from fossil fuels, including oil (bummer!)

For those who like the science speak:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/SecondaryHydrogen.html

Industry produces the hydrogen it needs by a process called steam reforming. High-temperature steam separates hydrogen from the carbon atoms in methane (CH4). The hydrogen produced by this method isn’t used as a fuel. It is used for industrial processes. This is the most cost-effective way to produce hydrogen today, but it uses fossil fuels both in the manufacturing process and as the heat source.
Another way to make hydrogen is by electrolysis—splitting water into its basic elements––hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis involves passing an electric current through water to separate the atoms (2H2O + electricity = 2H2 + O2). Hydrogen collects at the negatively charged cathode and oxygen at the positive anode.

Hydrogen produced by electrolysis is extremely pure, and electricity from renewable energy sources can be used, but it is very expensive at this time. Today, hydrogen from electrolysis is ten times as costly as natural gas and three times as costly as gasoline per Btu.


As a disclaimer, the above web site advocates the use of hydrogen, so it presents some of the info more optimistically than realistically.

[rhodescholar]

Since the issue came up a few times, I decided to make this post. Like many, I was initially excited at the prospect of hydrogen powered vehicles. It seemed like a good way to lessen our dependence on Arab oil, until I learned better. Industrially, hydrogen is made in two ways: (1) By applying electric current (electricity) to water, and (2) from fossil fuels, including oil (bummer!)

For those who like the science speak:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/SecondaryHydrogen.html

Industry produces the hydrogen it needs by a process called steam reforming. High-temperature steam separates hydrogen from the carbon atoms in methane (CH4). The hydrogen produced by this method isn’t used as a fuel. It is used for industrial processes. This is the most cost-effective way to produce hydrogen today, but it uses fossil fuels both in the manufacturing process and as the heat source.
Another way to make hydrogen is by electrolysis—splitting water into its basic elements––hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis involves passing an electric current through water to separate the atoms (2H2O + electricity = 2H2 + O2). Hydrogen collects at the negatively charged cathode and oxygen at the positive anode.

Hydrogen produced by electrolysis is extremely pure, and electricity from renewable energy sources can be used, but it is very expensive at this time. Today, hydrogen from electrolysis is ten times as costly as natural gas and three times as costly as gasoline per Btu.


As a disclaimer, the above web site advocates the use of hydrogen, so it presents some of the info more optimistically than realistically.

Any new fairly new technology will be expensive at first. Keep in mind hydrogen is the most prevalent substance in the universe, so there is plenty of it to power our societieis. I am reminded of a lecture in school from a teacher who was explaining why the sabbath is the most important holiday, b/c g-d gives the most important things to people in the greatest quantities. I guess you can extend that notion to our enemies...

[golani]

Since the issue came up a few times, I decided to make this post. Like many, I was initially excited at the prospect of hydrogen powered vehicles. It seemed like a good way to lessen our dependence on Arab oil, until I learned better. Industrially, hydrogen is made in two ways: (1) By applying electric current (electricity) to water, and (2) from fossil fuels, including oil (bummer!)

For those who like the science speak:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/SecondaryHydrogen.html

Industry produces the hydrogen it needs by a process called steam reforming. High-temperature steam separates hydrogen from the carbon atoms in methane (CH4). The hydrogen produced by this method isn’t used as a fuel. It is used for industrial processes. This is the most cost-effective way to produce hydrogen today, but it uses fossil fuels both in the manufacturing process and as the heat source.
Another way to make hydrogen is by electrolysis—splitting water into its basic elements––hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis involves passing an electric current through water to separate the atoms (2H2O + electricity = 2H2 + O2). Hydrogen collects at the negatively charged cathode and oxygen at the positive anode.

Hydrogen produced by electrolysis is extremely pure, and electricity from renewable energy sources can be used, but it is very expensive at this time. Today, hydrogen from electrolysis is ten times as costly as natural gas and three times as costly as gasoline per Btu.


As a disclaimer, the above web site advocates the use of hydrogen, so it presents some of the info more optimistically than realistically.

IT WILL BE DIFFICULT BUT IT IS FEASIBLE
Do you know that within 20 years,Iceland will get rid of oil and shift to all hydrogen processes thanks to their natural boiling water ressources
They will become a new "GREEN KUWAIT"
USA has all the assets on hands to progressively undertake the same transition,only political will is lacking
I am a strong supporter of President Bush but I think the only field he is lagging behind is energy policy (opening alaskan natural reserves to oil drilling is nonsense...),supposidly he is favouring hydrogen but not strongly enough

[Justcurious]

Kettle, what's your view about dough fired cars? They are not common in my country yet, but there are some and they look very promising. The dough used is dough excremented by cows. Dough produces gas, of course.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, the thing is, most of the hydrogen would be produced from fossil fuel, i.e. oil. It seems that it is just a better way to use the same fuel we use now, but won't end our dependency on it.

Justcurious: I haven't heard of people refering to it as "dough," but while there a few power plants that reprocess animal waste, I just don't think there is enough cow cr*p out there for it to become one of the mainsteam car fuels.

[Justcurious]

Well, the thing is, most of the hydrogen would be produced from fossil fuel, i.e. oil. It seems that it is just a better way to use the same fuel we use now, but won't end our dependency on it.

Justcurious: I haven't heard of people refering to it as "dough," but while there a few power plants that reprocess animal waste, I just don't think there is enough cow cr*p out there for it to become one of the mainsteam car fuels.

Dough is a bit suspicious indeed. But a guy near me has had a Volvo running on dough for years, he's got much publicity, and his car works extremely well. The main problem is that you cannot have enough dough gas everywhere.

[philingraham]

Since the only economically feasible way to extract hydrogen is thru natural gas, hydrogen cars only exacerbates the problem. But I suppose that the auto companies will find a way to "market" their way out of the problem...

[KettleWhistle]

Dough is a bit suspicious indeed. But a guy near me has had a Volvo running on dough for years, he's got much publicity, and his car works extremely well. The main problem is that you cannot have enough dough gas everywhere.
I'm not sure what you mean by "dough," since that's what bread is being made of. As for decaying biomass, I actually used to know a person who was in charge of a small electricity plant in Central California that used animal waste.

Also, that neighbor of yours should do some shopping here: http://www.bumperdumper.com That way he'll never run out of "gas." :D

[philingraham]

No amount of cleverness on our part is going to put a dent on our reliance of fossil fuels.
http://nytimes.com/financialtimes/business/FT20041010_7135_200375.html

The best way of following the spike in gas prices is to watch what the Oil Companies are actually doing...

[Justcurious]

I'm not sure what you mean by "dough," since that's what bread is being made of. As for decaying biomass, I actually used to know a person who was in charge of a small electricity plant in Central California that used animal waste.

Also, that neighbor of yours should do some shopping here: http://www.bumperdumper.com That way he'll never run out of "gas." :D
Sorry, my mistake! I meant dung (manure) and not dough. The following text may be incomprehensible to most, but take a look at a "dung car" being filled up. (Nothing unusual really.)

http://www.yle.fi/pallohallussa/280304.html

[Justcurious]

The publicity around Arnold Schwarzenegger's hydrogen-powered Hummer is a welcome piece of news, which will hopefully increase the sales in the USA.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/24/autos-312839.htm

[Mediocrates]

http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html


Ok my physical/thermochemistry is rusty but the math appears to work out.

[KettleWhistle]

Availability might be an issue too. Did they research if there is enough boron to be used as fuel?

[Da Chuckstar]

The publicity around Arnold Schwarzenegger's hydrogen-powered Hummer is a welcome piece of news, which will hopefully increase the sales in the USA.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/24/autos-312839.htm

I take it you didnt read the part about the Hydrogen Hummer needing to refill every 50 miles?? (80 km)

That is absolutely ridiculous, not practical at all. What they should do is make a hybrid Hummer which has a petrol/electric engine. Otherwise, there really isn't much to be excited about.

[Justcurious]

Toyota Prius was chosen the Car of the Year. And it's a hybrid car!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_031120_coy/

[KettleWhistle]

Prius is a well-designed car, but it looks like a dorkmobile, which is why it won't sell much after the initial 1-2 years. I'm more interested in the hybrid Ford Escape SUV and hybrid Honda Accord: http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Accord+Hybrid

[Mediocrates]

Ou Contraire! The Prius outsells the Civic Hybrid like 2:1 or more and was sold out through mid 2005 since last summer. In America, Greenism is as much a public or even a fashion statement as it is a rational choice. People want to be seen as being Green. This is why the Prius abandoned the Echo floorpan and went with a brand new style, a Prius unique style.

I think the Accord is a huge mistake. They claim 37mpg. That's horrible considering the regular Accord gets 31, 33 if you baby it (4-cyl models).


And the Mazda, uh, I mean Escape is going to be an overengineered Rube Goldberg contraption like all the other brand new ideas from Ford. And remember, NEVER buy a Ford until after the first recall, at least.

[KettleWhistle]

Ou Contraire! The Prius outsells the Civic Hybrid like 2:1 or more and was sold out through mid 2005 since last summer. In America, Greenism is as much a public or even a fashion statement as it is a rational choice. People want to be seen as being Green. This is why the Prius abandoned the Echo floorpan and went with a brand new style, a Prius unique style.It sure does. It is a much better car than Civic. It's roomier and has a smoother transmission. But the real question is how long are these sales going to hold after every enviro-mentalist gets one or the other.


I think the Accord is a huge mistake. They claim 37mpg. That's horrible considering the regular Accord gets 31, 33 if you baby it (4-cyl models).It seemed low to me to, but then I realised that it's a full-power 250+ horses V6.


And the Mazda, uh, I mean Escape is going to be an overengineered Rube Goldberg contraption like all the other brand new ideas from Ford. And remember, NEVER buy a Ford until after the first recall, at least.Well, I wouldn't buy a Ford, but Mazda isn't bad. I drove my first Mazda to over 200K miles, and the engine and tranny were in excellent condition. A third of Ford transmissions fail around 70K miles. But Escape actually is a Ford, unfortunately. I don't really expect much from it.

[Mediocrates]

Escapes are Mazdas Tributes. Same car.

The Accord will combine Honda electric with something Cadillac tried years ago - variable cylinder engines. The Accord will shut off 3/6ths of the cylinders at hgwy cruising speed. Not sure what the electric is for... Not sure what 255hp is for. Not sure what $30,000++ for an Accord is for. Let's just see.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, you don't need a 255hp engine for burban driving in Raleigh. But in LA with our dirty air, and stop-and-go from block to block, it's nice.

The hybrid Escapes are not Mazdas. They are planning to put that tech on Tributes a year or so later.

[Mediocrates]

We have the 5th worst air in the country (ozone), 17th worst overall. We have roads that are in the top ten in the country in terms of congestion and traffic. We have plenty of bubbas with trucks that have 250hp and more. I can't really think of a situation where you need it. A bunch of torque is nice if you're towing a bass boat out to the old catfish pond....but...

[Mediocrates]

We have 6 door trucks. Only place I've seen them. We have truck customizers that will redneckify an F-450 into a personal use Bubbatruck.

I'm afraid Hybrids while a great idea are going to be a hard sell in so many places. I'd like to get one but I don't want to pay a huge premium for it. 30Gs for an Accord is high. I've owned 3 Accord and they're nice but not that nice.

[Justcurious]

We have 6 door trucks. Only place I've seen them. We have truck customizers that will redneckify an F-450 into a personal use Bubbatruck.

We even have truck races in Europe. You probably have, too. Sheer madness.

http://www.racingcircuits.net/_series/truck/champions.html

[KettleWhistle]

We have 6 door trucks. Only place I've seen them. We have truck customizers that will redneckify an F-450 into a personal use Bubbatruck.
We have Galpinized trucks. Now that mentioned that, I remember that these guys from http://www.galpinized.com/, were competing with a Ford dealer in one of the Carolinas for the title of #1 Ford dealer in the country. I really doubt you can beat our 909 area (that's their area code), which is a desert with 110F+ temperatures in summer, and is also characterised by some heavy industry, sewer water treatment plants, meth labs, and billboards advising against use and/or production of metaphedamines.

[Mediocrates]

Yesterday's moonshiner is today's methlab. Last year the SBI took down 2500 methlabs in NC. They have no way of estimating what percentage that is. If it's even 30% then there is one methlab for every 1000 people in the state.

[Mediocrates]

We even have truck races in Europe. You probably have, too. Sheer madness.

http://www.racingcircuits.net/_series/truck/champions.html

Yeah we got those bangers too. We also have truck drag racing.

And tractor trailer truck racing (no trailer).


But for real hillbilly thrills come on down to the state fair. We got tractor pulls that put rigs with 2 turbojet engines from a Harrier jump jet against each other. All you can hear for about 3 days is a sharp ringing in your ears.

[KettleWhistle]

Hmmm... I think the Euros beat us on this one though: http://www.truckrace.nl/10/zat-rtQ1/images/5-_OHO4664-DSC_8108.jpg

[goliath]

Hmmm... I think the Euros beat us on this one though: http://www.truckrace.nl/10/zat-rtQ1/images/5-_OHO4664-DSC_8108.jpg

Lol ! Yes Euro do that sometimes ,but not only during truckrace , sometimes on the roads.

Concerning the other energy ,we are still waiting for the :

Combutible's battery , which should be available yet in China.

[KettleWhistle]

Lucky me, I only have to deal with this every day: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041208/photos_ts_afp/041208164048_pzp64dgd_photo0

Or this: http://www.newciv.org/pic/nl/artpic/10/860/los-angeles-traffic-44.3.jpg

No racing there as it rarely gets to over 5 miles per hour (~8 kph).

[goliath]

[
=KettleWhistle]Lucky me, I only have to deal with this every day: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041208/photos_ts_afp/041208164048_pzp64dgd_photo0

Or this: http://www.newciv.org/pic/nl/artpic/10/860/los-angeles-traffic-44.3.jpg

No racing there as it rarely gets to over 5 miles per hour (~8 kph).

Lol !! Oh yes I see , Los Angeles is a jam traffic black point ,so : deuce.

And you will soon needs greens car , Prius is a very good one .

I was on those motorways in 1987 ( 101 and 104 ) should be worse now, hard days ,exception proves the rule.
Around London ,it's maybe the worse in the world ,sometimes thaffic is stocked for hours, and you have to pay one pound ,to get in the city ,and that improve nothing ,the external circular ,is 220 miles long.

[minusthejihad]

And next to the Pontiac Aztek and the car for botfriends of men who own Azteks, the Honda Element, the Prius is the third ugliest car on the road. I'd rather ride the bus.

[Mediocrates]

It is a key difference. This is a very large country where most of the intercity distances are very long. Smallish cars you drive all over the sidewalks of Rouen are fine for that but don't do well over here. They don't even do well over there on the 'A' roads at speed. And they have to function well in high congestion city and suburban roads. All without breaking down any more than cars right now and without costing more to repair.


BTW our EMS companies are working out rescue techniques for hybrid cars which present new problems from high powered electrical systems and chemical batteries.

[minusthejihad]

Many potential Hybrid car owners are scared away by the car's feminine qualities.

Just like Wanda Sykes said in Curb Your Enthusiam when she was putting down Larry David's Prius,

"A real man needs a car with some Get Up and Go!"

[KettleWhistle]

Wanda Sykes? The "my parents beat me and I turned out OK" Wanda Sykes? Or am I thinking of someone else?

I don't really mind Honda Element. It works well for people who live on the California coast, but the Aztek owners will soon be glancing with glee at the wifebeater wearers who can afford the new Pontiac STS--the V8 powered 400 horses product that looks like it was designed by the same team that came up with the Aztek.

[minusthejihad]

Perhaps, I don't know if Wanda said that. She's not the brightest and I wouldn't be surprised. However, it doesn't mean she wouldn't have a good opinion about cars. Lastly, if you are driving an Element, I feel for you, but it could be worse, it could be a Saturn. I'm assume you are a man. Otherwise, woman can feel free to drive those, after all, they are designed for them. I happen to think cars are representative of the people driving them.

So my next car will be: http://www.lincoln.com/vehicles/aviator/exterior/default.asp?flash=1

[KettleWhistle]

I'm not driving an Element, but if I was into surfing or mountain biking I probably would. The thing's got a fully washable interior--you just hose it down when it gets dirty, and it handles well on mountain roads. But I wouldn't drive it in the city.

Anywho, my next ride will be either this: http://www.lexus.com/models/gs/index.html

or an Acura RL: http://www.acura.com/models/model_index.asp?module=rl


I wouldn't get an Aviator though. It's just souped up Ford Explorer.

[minusthejihad]

I'm sorry, but from a loyal Mercury Mountaineer driver for years, the differences between an Explorer to a Mountainer and from that to a Aviator are immense, they can't just be "slagged" off! I would NEVER drive a Ford Exploder, but I highly recommend Mercurys and Lincolns any day.

[goliath]

Sorry but i'm driving a motorbike BMW 1150 RT pluck up! is an easy way for the city .

My car stay in the garage quiet and warm , some horses probably died,
but it as enough of them.

[KettleWhistle]

Sorry but i'm driving a motorbike BMW 1150 RT pluck up! is an easy way for the city .
Nice. I had one of these for a while, but had to sell it: http://www.canadianrider.com/buyers_guide/suzuki/2004_Suzuki_Bandit_1200_1.jpg

I didn't have the license to drive it, and didn't have the time to take the class to get the damn license.

[goliath]

[
QUOTE=KettleWhistle]Nice. I had one of these for a while, but had to sell it: http://www.canadianrider.com/buyers_guide/suzuki/2004_Suzuki_Bandit_1200_1.jpg

I didn't have the license to drive it, and didn't have the time to take the class to get the damn license.

oh yes ,is the 1200 S " bandit" is a very powerfull roadster.very smooth and it protect enough.and good breaking to.

[Justcurious]

This is a very large country where most of the intercity distances are very long. Smallish cars you drive all over the sidewalks of Rouen are fine for that but don't do well over here. They don't even do well over there on the 'A' roads at speed.

Ever thought how many minutes you save, if you go slightly faster? Any small car can go faster than the speed limits.

If you really want to drive fast, why do all rally drivers use small cars?

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/CarsBase.html

[goliath]

Ever thought how many minutes you save, if you go slightly faster? Any small car can go faster than the speed limits.
If you really want to drive fast, why do all rally drivers use small cars?
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/CarsBase.html


It's true , None contest the large distances in América , in compareason with Europe , plane's tickets are much cheaper , and I'm asking me ,when an American decide to let the car and take a plane ?
When I was living there , a long time ago ,over 300 miles ,I was using airlines.
And it's seems that the large cars like Ford Pinto etc. ,or alike doesn't exist anymore ,even Cadillac is manufacturing "small" models
In Europe ,we are going on small models by obligation , ( gas. cost ,$5 /gallon , automatic radars , Sarkozi, Chirac, de Villepin , Le Pen, Le Merde are not very good models , and are equipped with very small engines.And next step will be general failure , after that we have our model : Argentina :Bankruptcy or minimum insolvency,nice!
So ,we can say in our beautifull Europ , automobiles becomes to be very far from our preocupation , fish and chips is also increasing .

[Justcurious]

None contest the large distances in América , in compareason with Europe , plane's tickets are much cheaper , and I'm asking me ,when an American decide to let the car and take a plane ?

Airlines are competing hard in Europe. New cheap flights are sold all the time. There are countless carriers which offer cheap flights. For instance, Ryanair offers a return flight from Finland to England (1200 miles) for less than 20 €/USD 26.

http://www.ryanair.com/

Do you also have budget flights of this calibre?

[Mediocrates]

Ever thought how many minutes you save, if you go slightly faster? Any small car can go faster than the speed limits.

If you really want to drive fast, why do all rally drivers use small cars?

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/CarsBase.html


Dunno. I do know the last time I drove from Normandy to Lucern it was in a full sized Audi A6 and I rarely went below 160kph. I'm pretty sure that for each American who drives a land ark there's a Euro who burns all kinds of fuel speeding like all hell.:p

[Mediocrates]

And I drove because the TGV was so damned expensive - more than flying. So what's up with that?

[Mediocrates]

Kudos on the Millau Bridge.

[Justcurious]

Kudos on the Millau Bridge.

We had an item on the bridge on TV last night. Using the bridge costs 5 €, which I don't think is much compared with the time and fuel you save.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4091813.stm

You should bear in mind that fuel in Europe costs much more than in the States or Arab countries. A gallon of gasoline is about USD 4,20.

[goliath]

[
QUOTE=Mediocrates]Dunno. I do know the last time I drove from Normandy to Lucern it was in a full sized Audi A6 and I rarely went below 160kph. I'm pretty sure that for each American who drives a land ark there's a Euro who burns all kinds of fuel speeding like all hell.:

If you intend to check your performance now , you could have a bad surprise , beautyfull Chirac and his Mazarini Sarkozy , have decided to install
1000 automatic radars with zero tolerance
Even in city : Limit speed : m.31 ,if you are at m.31.01 you get a fine of Euros 60 :$76 ,and if you're at m.44 you have the pleasure to receive within 24 hrs .a fine of $ 125 ,and if you're French ,you get 6 point less in your driving license (we have 12 points ,after that you have to get another new license ) this can arrive to penal offense , who means 3 , or 6 months or more , and you serve a prison sentence (steady ).
The foreigners are not under that law , but they are "thinking about it" ,so the merry period of 160 kph is far away.
Peple now are buying mostly 4x4 ,is a fashion ,and the majority , litttle cars , VWgolf type or alike. Adios velocidad!

[Justcurious]

Some figures:

Cars on Millau Bridge are at the height of 343 m and the length of the bridge is 2,46 km. The height of Royal Gorge Bridge in Colorado is 320 m.

I've driven on high bridges in Tromsö, Norway, and Gran Canaria in the Canary Islands and such heights are not exactly fun for drivers. At least not for me.

[KettleWhistle]

Ever thought how many minutes you save, if you go slightly faster? Not many. We have commercials on the air all the time urging drivers not to speed. They say that going 10 mph over our highway speed limit of 65mph will save an average driver less than 5 minutes. But most people drive at around 80-90 mph on the interstates anyway. And it also varies by state here. I was in Pennsylvania for several weeks a few years back, and they have patrol airplanes that can get your license number, and conviniently mail you a ticket. Of course, the good thing about it, they can't prove that it was you driving, so you can get out of paying it.:D

[Roland]

Dunno. I do know the last time I drove from Normandy to Lucern it was in a full sized Audi A6 and I rarely went below 160kph. I'm pretty sure that for each American who drives a land ark there's a Euro who burns all kinds of fuel speeding like all hell.:p
That ... ahem ... would be me. :o :D

[Mediocrates]

That was you in the Renault van full of skiers on the A24 blew past me at about Warp 8?;)

[Roland]

Warp 8
LOL!
I can choose on my daily ride from suburbia to downtown if I want to use the autobahn - slightly longer, but faster driving, favourable for going home, or the slow-go shorter city-limited way which I prefer in early mornings with empty streets.
No matter what I do, I can't save any minutes.
But nothing beats heading home on the autobahn at 200 km/h. :D
And since my car averagely burns only 6,5 l/100km diesel, no matter what I do, it is not a question of money or bad concience about environemental collateral damages.
... unless I'd begin to collect speeding tickets, both way have speed limits ...
But then, limits are made for making new highscores and I do have a helpful talent for anticipating traps :p.
I'll need a new car in late spring'05 - I really thought about refitting a diesel-car for burning used vegetable oil. It would switch my depending on oil companies to depending on fastfood companies, and the exhaust would smell like old french fries, but at least save me a fortune.

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Roland]LOL!
I'll need a new car in late spring'05 - I really thought about refitting a diesel-car for burning used vegetable oil. It would switch my depending on oil companies to depending on fastfood companies, and the exhaust would smell like old french fries, but at least save me a fortune.

I now a supplier for vegetable oil you needs : Mc Donald's Germany

They agree to furnish you ,but not in fresh oil ,with second hand oil only,

and they can garantee the smell getting out from your pipe system, maybe the perfume will be a bit different ,and if you intend to use it , it's not courteous for the guy who wants overtake you at only 250 kph , no more !,because all German's (good)cars , have a vulnerable point ,the engine automatically cut at relative low speed (250 kpm.),so I've got an Italian one !

[Roland]

I now a supplier for vegetable oil you needs : Mc Donald's Germany

They agree to furnish you ,but not in fresh oil ,with second hand oil only,

and they can garantee the smell getting out from your pipe system, maybe the perfume will be a bit different ,and if you intend to use it , it's not courteous for the guy who wants overtake you at only 250 kph , no more !,because all German's (good)cars , have a vulnerable point ,the engine automatically cut at relative low speed (250 kpm.),so I've got an Italian one !
Second hand oil is okay for a modified diesel motor, just filter some remaining fries out of it, warm it up before injection, drive.
If that is your only problem, you can have those speed limiters removed. :D
Yuck! :eek: I'd never buy an italian car. Never.
FIAT! Fehler in allen Teilen!
~ Failure in all Parts! :D

[Justcurious]

Not many. We have commercials on the air all the time urging drivers not to speed. They say that going 10 mph over our highway speed limit of 65mph will save an average driver less than 5 minutes. But most people drive at around 80-90 mph on the interstates anyway. And it also varies by state here. I was in Pennsylvania for several weeks a few years back, and they have patrol airplanes that can get your license number, and conviniently mail you a ticket. Of course, the good thing about it, they can't prove that it was you driving, so you can get out of paying it.:D

I don't think we are using such photographing airplanes, but we have unmanned automatic road cameras/equipment which measure your speed and take a picture of your car and register plate. They are very efficient!

[goliath]

D QUOTE=Justcurious]I don't think we are using such photographing airplanes, but we have unmanned automatic road cameras/equipment which measure your speed and take a picture of your car and register plate. They are very efficient!

Hu, it's from your country the French govt cashiers ,took that good idea,but you have only one motorway , and they are trying now another one :
:D
We must Drive with the dipped headlights during daylight ,and it's working ,Sarkozy has reduced French people as lambs ,even if De Gaule said : French people are calfs ! every driver is trembling in his car with the eyes staring at the speedometer ,and his wife looking outside at the limit speed signpost! .! :D

[Mediocrates]

A more basic point is what are the trends in personal vehicle ownership? Are more people owning cars in Europe? And if so are they fuel efficient? The real problem is that in regions like China which are experiencing economic booms, car ownership is growing very rapidly. But these countries have no history and less interest in regulating fuel efficiency, emissions or safety. So while we in the west stumble around making $40,000 hybrids, they have $3,000 crackerboxes that burn too much gas, belch out fumes and fold up when hit. Better we should develop cheap efficient safe cars for emerging economies.

[goliath]

[
QUOTE=Mediocrates]A more basic point is what are the trends in personal vehicle ownership? Are more people owning cars in Europe? And if so are they fuel efficient? The real problem is that in regions like China which are experiencing economic booms, car ownership is growing very rapidly. But these countries have no history and less interest in regulating fuel efficiency, emissions or safety. So while we in the west stumble around making $40,000 hybrids, they have $3,000 crackerboxes that burn too much gas, belch out fumes and fold up when hit. Better we should develop cheap efficient safe cars for emerging economies.[/QUOTE]

Yes it's the main problem ,why to reduce CO2 ,in US,and in the mean time you will see China with an exponential growing number of "normal cars ".
But they seems to be really concerned by "clean energy " not for industries, but concerning the "common" people ,not the apparatchiks " the little motorcycles are mainly electrical ,and the "rich" poor are using that kind of mean going working (battery ).

[goliath]

Second hand oil is okay for a modified diesel motor, just filter some remaining fries out of it, warm it up before injection, drive.
If that is your only problem, you can have those speed limiters removed. :D
Yuck! :eek: I'd never buy an italian car. Never.
FIAT! Fehler in allen Teilen!
~ Failure in all Parts! :D


I'm German for my car and motorbike , (M5) ,but I can't resell it , so I decided to send it as a Chrismaka gift to a Cuban friend. poisonned gift!

[minusthejihad]

I don't think we are using such photographing airplanes, but we have unmanned automatic road cameras/equipment which measure your speed and take a picture of your car and register plate. They are very efficient!

Yes, supposedly soon England will have more security cameras than people. I find technology like this to be very easily corrupted, such as what happened in California a few years ago when I lived there. In order to make more money the gov colluded with the makers of the machines and lowered the amount of time of the Yellow Light, nabbing much more people running Reds. Eventually, it all came out in the open and many people became increasingly distrustful of technology like this and the state gov.

[KettleWhistle]

I don't think we are using such photographing airplanes, but we have unmanned automatic road cameras/equipment which measure your speed and take a picture of your car and register plate. They are very efficient!
Yes, supposedly soon England will have more security cameras than people. I find technology like this to be very easily corrupted, such as what happened in California a few years ago when I lived there. In order to make more money the gov colluded with the makers of the machines and lowered the amount of time of the Yellow Light, nabbing much more people running Reds. Eventually, it all came out in the open and many people became increasingly distrustful of technology like this and the state gov.
It's more complicated than that. Somebody also sued them over the digital pictures, saying that these can be faked, so they had to make these into film cameras. In various rednecklands around Los Angeles and San Diego, and in the Central California, the locals would sometimes put on a mask, take the license numbers off their trucks, and run the red light, back and forth thru the intersection until the cameras run out of film. I prefere a more simple method: just cover my face with my hand if suspect I might be running a red light. If they can't prove it was me, they have to dismiss the ticket.

[Justcurious]

A more basic point is what are the trends in personal vehicle ownership? Are more people owning cars in Europe? And if so are they fuel efficient?

I haven't got any figures, but more and more companies have begun to lease cars. As far as I know they are the same models that private persons buy, except that some firms, like the Post Office, favour electric vans.

Last month the leading car models in Finland were Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, Volkswagen Golf, Renault Mégane, Fiat Punto, Peugeot 307, Peugeot 407, Toyota Avensis, Audi A4 and Nissan Primera.

Mine is a Renault Mégane II Break.

http://www.motorbox.com/Auto/4322.html?mmc=49

[KettleWhistle]

Mine is a Renault Mégane II Break.

http://www.motorbox.com/Auto/4322.html?mmc=49
We have those too: http://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/ModelHomePage/0,,120015,00.html

[Justcurious]

We have those too: http://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/ModelHomePage/0,,120015,00.html

Do you mean you have a Nissan? What about the most popular cars in your area last month?

[KettleWhistle]

This Nissan is the same thing as you Renault.

I actually drive an older Nissan Altima. A souped up version of it, actually. I played around with it a little bit, and put in a different grill, a slicker spoiler, nice KYB shocks, illegally tinted the windows, and made a few other enhancements. But I wouldn't buy another Nissan. They aren't really that good.

I don't know what's popular here by month. I don't think anybody really keeps track anyway. Most people around where I live drive various "imports," mostly larger mid-size sedans or SUVs. Lots of Beamers and Lexuses here. But Cadillacs have improved and are becoming more popular. Plenty of Hummer H2's (http://www.hummer.com/)and Lincoln Navigators (http://www.lincoln.com/vehicles/navigator/exterior/default.asp?flash=1)around too.

But it really depends on the particular area where you live. In coastal communities around LA most women drive WV Bugs (http://www.vw.com/newbeetle/index.htm)or Minis (http://www.miniusa.com/crm/mini_entrance.jsp), and guys drive PT Cruisers (http://www.chrysler.com/pt_cruiser/) and Elements (http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Element&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True). In the mountains you see more rugged SUVs and pick-up trucks.

[Justcurious]

This Nissan is the same thing as you Renault.
Yes, I know Renaults and Nissans are in close cooperation, but here they are still marketed under different brands. (Only the chassis is the same?) I had a Datsun (Nissan) Cherry over 20 years ago and a VW Beetle before that, but Beetles are rare nowadays, let alone Cherries which are now non-existent.

Your PT Cruisers are surpringly inexpensive! Here the cheapest ones cost USD 39.500!

As for hybrid-powered engines, I don't know if either car has any models. I doubt that.

[KettleWhistle]

Yes, I know Renaults and Nissans are in close cooperation, but here they are still marketed under different brands. (Only the chassis is the same?)
It is more than just the chassis. Most likely the engines and many of the more minor components are the same as well. The transmissions have to be different because of different governmental regulations. They can't sell cars with European transmissions in the U.S. That's why we don't have many European makes here.


As for hybrid-powered engines, I don't know if either car has any models. I doubt that.
No, they don't. There are only two hybrids in the U.S. now--Honda Civic and Toyota Prius. Several more will come out next year, but none from Nissan.

[KettleWhistle]

Your PT Cruisers are surpringly inexpensive! Here the cheapest ones cost USD 39.500!
That's because they are garbage. When they came out initially that's how much they would cost here too. But after they had next to nothing in sales for a couple years, they dropped the price, and are now selling quite a few. You can get a fully loaded version for under $25,000. Interestengly enough, a Japanese friend told me that they are expensive in Japan as well.

[minusthejihad]

They should be cheap, after all, a PT Cruiser is simply a Dodge Neon statiowagon, and both are . In fact, the year they came out so many people bought the under-powered 4 cylinder version that Chrysler delayed releasing the V6 version.

[Justcurious]

That's because they are garbage. When they came out initially that's how much they would cost here too. But after they had next to nothing in sales for a couple years, they dropped the price, and are now selling quite a few. You can get a fully loaded version for under $25,000. Interestengly enough, a Japanese friend told me that they are expensive in Japan as well.

I said they were inexpensive, because the price in your link was USD 13.995! In other words, even much cheaper than your fully loaded version of USD 25.000. Yet, our cheapest price of USD 52.400 is high regardless of which price is used in the comparison.

The PT Cruisers appeal to many here, but they are not amongst the most popular. The cheapest cars in general cost 10.000 € or USD 13.250 here.

[KettleWhistle]

The PT Cruisers appeal to many here, but they are not amongst the most popular. The cheapest cars in general cost 10.000 € or USD 13.250 here.
I could get a good deal on a Lada. About $7,000 for a new one. They are pretty good 1970's Fiats, and even have cabin heaters, but no ACs, sorry. And the wipers are manual--there is a lever you'll have to pull to get the water off the windshield.:D

[goliath]

[
QUOTE=KettleWhistle]I could get a good deal on a Lada. About $7,000 for a new one. They are pretty good 1970's Fiats, and even have cabin heaters, but no ACs, sorry. And the wipers are manual--there is a lever you'll have to pull to get the water off the windshield.:D[/QUOTE

In Cuba ,all the cars left ( after Batista) were 50's models ,those who still run , mainly taxis cab , the pipe system is so tiny and under the enormous bonnet ,you find an engine which is a 1700 Lada four cylinder .
The cigars (Cohiba) are I hope original , do they make cigars in China ?

[Justcurious]

I could get a good deal on a Lada. About $7,000 for a new one. They are pretty good 1970's Fiats, and even have cabin heaters, but no ACs, sorry. And the wipers are manual--there is a lever you'll have to pull to get the water off the windshield.:D

Ladas (Zhigulis) are getting rare here, but new ones still exist. The cheapest one is Lada 110, which costs 9.990 € or 13.180 dollars.

http://www.delta-auto.fi/tlist.asp?tmake=LADA&tmodel=110

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Justcurious]Ladas (Zhigulis) are getting rare here, but new ones still exist. The cheapest one is Lada 110, which costs 9.990 € or 13.180 dollars.

http://www.delta-auto.fi/tlist.asp?tmake=LADA&tmodel=110[

I will get one of these Lada ,and put it in my garden , to remember

Komrad Stalin. Lada as a car hu mainly a boxsoap

[Justcurious]

[QUOTE]

I will get one of these Lada ,and put it in my garden , to remember

Komrad Stalin. Lada as a car hu mainly a boxsoap

No need to ridicule Ladas. They are surprisingly good. Certainly not luxurious, but they will take you from point A to point B just as fast as the most luxurious cars, provided of course you obey the speed limits. And you do, don't you?

[Roland]

No need to ridicule Ladas. They are surprisingly good. Certainly not luxurious, but they will take you from point A to point B just as fast as the most luxurious cars, provided of course you obey the speed limits. And you do, don't you?
*cough* :o

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Justcurious]No need to ridicule Ladas. They are surprisingly good. Certainly not luxurious, but they will take you from point A to point B just as fast as the most luxurious cars, provided of course you obey the speed limits. And you do, don't you?

Yes I do respect the speed limits when Idrive my car , so Sarkozy force the French lambs to drive like snails ,so far so good , the problem is we have no intention to change our cars ,and we'll keep the same one for years,concerning me, I'm riding a motorbike ,and speed limits are much variable.(my car is a real monster ,useless.

[Tan]

The production of alternative source of energy have always revolve around the few main obstacles.
1)the production
2) the storage
3) The safety consideration

for pple who are interested o this topic can always visit this website http://www.ch2bc.org/ which provide updates on the development of hydrogen as an alternative source of fuel.

[golani]

[QUOTE]

Yes I do respect the speed limits when Idrive my car , so Sarkozy force the French lambs to drive like snails ,so far so good , the problem is we have no intention to change our cars ,and we'll keep the same one for years,concerning me, I'm riding a motorbike ,and speed limits are much variable.(my car is a real monster ,useless.

Goliath,
you know my opinion about french government...
But you have to admit the number of car accidents drastically decreased since speed limits have been enforced
kol tov,
Golani

[Roland]

But you have to admit the number of car accidents drastically decreased since speed limits have been enforced
Thats news to me.
Car accidents are still INCREASING where speed limits have been enforced here, but overall DECREASED, where
a) traffic lights have been installed in cities and - more important - controlled properly matching the requirements of the increasing amount of traffic
b) roads got repaired and oversight had been improved
c) bypasses for traditionally jammed streets have been made
d) the wild growing of limits have been reduced to areas with schools and hospitals are - IOW where drivers can accept the necessity of limits
e) slow vehicles can be overtaken safely
Speed limits only improve security where drivers accept them.
General limits esp. on highways do nothing but lull the drivers' attention.

[golani]

Thats news to me.
Car accidents are still INCREASING where speed limits have been enforced here, but overall DECREASED, where
a) traffic lights have been installed in cities and - more important - controlled properly matching the requirements of the increasing amount of traffic
b) roads got repaired and oversight had been improved
c) bypasses for traditionally jammed streets have been made
d) the wild growing of limits have been reduced to areas with schools and hospitals are - IOW where drivers can accept the necessity of limits
e) slow vehicles can be overtaken safely
Speed limits only improve security where drivers accept them.
General limits esp. on highways do nothing but lull the drivers' attention.

Well, maybe you are right
I thought to have seen a report on France 2 which claimed the contrary but I was not very concentrated on the topic...

[goliath]

Goliath,
you know my opinion about french government...
But you have to admit the number of car accidents drastically decreased since speed limits have been enforced
kol tov,
Golani

The figures concerning the cars accidents are given by the police ,who are only a remote from the gov.
They can give you all they wants ,you have no mean to check the lies they are spreading ,anyway the serious crash cars with dead persons , doesn't happened in motorway , where the pay cash radars in majority are installed.

[Mediocrates]

I thought it was the enforcement of drunk driving laws for the first time 2 years ago.

[goliath]

[
QUOTE=Mediocrates]I thought it was the enforcement of drunk driving laws for the first time 2 years ago.]


Yes indeed ,but still now ,police has no easy mean to check ,the drug users ,which is a real danger ,as high as alcohol ,and worse when they take a blend of both things.

[Roland]

Hideous speeding traps: At least one every day.
Being asked if I was driving alc'ed/drugged since I got my driving license 1988: once.
Reports of alcohol accidents in the newspapers: every day.

[Justcurious]

Hideous speeding traps: At least one every day.
Being asked if I was driving alc'ed/drugged since I got my driving license 1988: once.
Reports of alcohol accidents in the newspapers: every day.

I heard some twenty years ago that the police did absolutely nothing in the States if they saw a drunken person starting to drive. He or she was allowed to drive until an accident happened.

I don't think this could be true, could it?

And also twenty years ago, people would have a pint or two in a local pub where they went by car,

[Mediocrates]

I seriously doubt that.

[KettleWhistle]

I heard some twenty years ago that the police did absolutely nothing in the States if they saw a drunken person starting to drive. He or she was allowed to drive until an accident happened.

I don't think this could be true, could it?

And also twenty years ago, people would have a pint or two in a local pub where they went by car,
It's generally not true, but it depends on the situation also. First of all, we are legally allowed to drive with 0.08% (I think that's the correct figure) of blood alcohol level. That's about two drinks, maybe three if you're a big guy/gal. Some states, mostly in the South, allow drivers to have opened containers with alcohol, and it's really nice to sip on some cold Fosters (http://www.fosters.com.au/beer/about/brands/beer/fosters_lager.asp)or Asahi (http://www.asahibeerusa.com/)while driving around Austin, TX.

I was in the Midwest about eight years ago, and was coming from a party pretty wasted with a case of cheap beer in the trunk of car. It was about 2 am, so I didn't think there'd be any cops around, but I got pulled over by some sheriff. He just looked at me, told to pop the trunk, took my beer, and let me go after bitching at me for having cheap beer.:D But I was really lucky then because usually if you get caught driving drunk, you'd be in a lot of trouble.

[Justcurious]

... we are legally allowed to drive with 0.08% (I think that's the correct figure) of blood alcohol level.

That might explain the observations I had heard of. If you're allowed to have that alcohol level, you're much too drunk for driving in my opinion.
There are suggestions that our level of 0.05 % should be lowered. In some European countries the level is 0%.

[KettleWhistle]

That might explain the observations I had heard of. If you're allowed to have that alcohol level, you're much too drunk for driving in my opinion.
I would disagree. It is not an arbitrary number, but one based on research, and it is safe. And it's a matter of lifestyle as well. I do have to get home after a dinner, and I don't feel that having a couple glasses of wine makes driving problematic.

[Mediocrates]

That might explain the observations I had heard of. If you're allowed to have that alcohol level, you're much too drunk for driving in my opinion.
There are suggestions that our level of 0.05 % should be lowered. In some European countries the level is 0%.

That's why you're not allowed to own guns - you'd undoubtedly kill yourselves.

[Justcurious]

That's why you're not allowed to own guns - you'd undoubtedly kill yourselves.

With a reduction in your alcohol level you might also cut down the enormous number of deaths resulting from gun ownership! ;)

The following tells you more about the current trends in Europe.

http://www.epha.org/a/388

[KettleWhistle]

With a reduction in your alcohol level you might also cut down the enormous number of deaths resulting from gun ownership! ;)
I am generally for stricter gun control, but to be fair, legal gun ownership is an extremely minor contributor to the number of homicidal or accidential deaths. It is the illegal gun ownership that's a big problem.

[Mediocrates]

The US almost always has ranked below all EU states in percapita alcohol consumption. Luxembourg, France, Germany, Italy always rate at or near the top. Oz around 16-20th (believe it or not) and the US somewhere in the 20-24th ranked slot. Sweden comes in slightly below the US.


The patterns in Europe vary from total acceptance in the south with alcohol being a standard part of the diet, to the Nordic countries which show an ambivalence; either extreme abuse or abstinence.

[KettleWhistle]

It would depend on the drink too. I would imagine that Russians who drink cologne or morons that drink mouthwash would have it far worse than someone who drinks quality Japanese beers or Californian wines.

[Justcurious]

I am generally for stricter gun control, but to be fair, legal gun ownership is an extremely minor contributor to the number of homicidal or accidential deaths. It is the illegal gun ownership that's a big problem.

Legal gun ownership is not a big problem, I agree, but the availability of guns is the thing that leads through theft and robberies to the illegal gun ownership.

[Mediocrates]

With a reduction in your alcohol level you might also cut down the enormous number of deaths resulting from gun ownership! ;)


But who would want to? I friend of mine spent a year in Oslo. It almost killed him and he said that was the best thing about the place.

[KettleWhistle]

Legal gun ownership is not a big problem, I agree, but the availability of guns is the thing that leads through theft and robberies to the illegal gun ownership.
No, actually it's the other way around. Illegal guns, are usually brought into the country illegally, and are sold illegally. In case of robberies legal guns usually save lives. But to me it's really about the function of the government. I like to think that it should try to accomodate people instead of regulating them. So if we have a substantial portion of population that want to legally have guns, be it for protection, hunting, or to shoot beer cans with their P4's, then it's preferable to put reasonable safeguards in place to allow it, rather than to prohibit it.

[Justcurious]

But who would want to? I friend of mine spent a year in Oslo. It almost killed him and he said that was the best thing about the place.

Just to confirm, I was speaking of the level of alcohol in your blood while driving.

Norway is one hell of a place for drinking. The price is so high that in remote areas people make moonshine at home.

KW, are you saying that gun stores are seldom robbed?

[KettleWhistle]

KW, are you saying that gun stores are seldom robbed?
Although I have heard of a doughnut shop being robbed, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to try to rob a gun store. Gun store owners are not the police, they won't warn before shooting.:D

[Justcurious]

Although I have heard of a doughnut shop being robbed, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to try to rob a gun store. Gun store owners are not the police, they won't warn before shooting.:D

Or maybe American gun stores are just a rare exception! :p

[Mediocrates]

You would have to be some kind of nutcase to try to rob a gunstore. If you want a gun just go down to your local bar and/or bad neighborhood and buy one like everyone else. Or, just steal one from one of your acquaintenances.

[Justcurious]

You would have to be some kind of nutcase to try to rob a gunstore. If you want a gun just go down to your local bar and/or bad neighborhood and buy one like everyone else. Or, just steal one from one of your acquaintenances.

Indeed. Thare are so many legally purchased guns that you can even rob your neighbor's house or steal from a bar customer!

I wonder how many of these legal weapons were bought because of a true need.

[Mediocrates]

What is a true need? Apples and oranges I think. I'm no proponent of unlimited gun ownership but even you have to admit that there is little 'true need' for the citizen armies of Europe to allow their people to take home their assault rifles like they do in Switzerland.

[Justcurious]

What is a true need? Apples and oranges I think. I'm no proponent of unlimited gun ownership but even you have to admit that there is little 'true need' for the citizen armies of Europe to allow their people to take home their assault rifles like they do in Switzerland.

True need? Being a country boy, I cannot think of much else than slaughtering animals and game. Target shooting is fun at times.

[Mediocrates]

I don't think hunting for food is a true need. It's an avocation maybe, or an activity or a hobby but rarely a need. And for American gunowners they're fortunate enough to have a Constitutionally protected hobby yet nowhere else in the Constitution does it say Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Hobbies.


At any rate...flame on.

[Justcurious]

I don't think hunting for food is a true need. ...

At any rate...flame on.

There are more and more vegetarians nowadays, but quite a few still like beef, pork etc., especially home-grown.

Many of us also like to eat our domestic animals killed. :p

Flame? Or do you mean flambé?