Critical Knesset Vote on Disengagement

[NewsGuy]

Today, the Israeli parliament (Knesset) will vote on Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement plan.

Under the plan, Israel will use military force against its own citizens to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip of all its Jewish residents. The IDF will be instructed to carry out the ethnic cleansing while under terrorist fire, as Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israeli suburbs. Israel will also not receive any reciprocal actions from the Palestinians.

According to the plan, Israel will hand over thousands of homes, agricultural resources, and infrastructure to be occupied by Hamas members and other Palestinians.

Hamas has declared that its terrorist attacks have led to the Israeli withdrawal, as the IDF and people of Israel have been defeated by Palestinian suicide bombers and various terrorist attacks. Hamas also promised to use the evacuated homes and farming land as staging areas for future terrorist attacks on Israeli population centers.

Sharon is backed by Leftist parties and has refused calls from the people of Israel and from his own Likud party members to hold a national referendum on the disengagement plan.

Sharon has referred to the vote as "fateful" for Israel.

[sharonbn]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

[Mediocrates]

You had about 8 years to show real progress. And?

[Justcurious]

This news just came in:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/16/world/main623509.shtml

[minusthejihad]

There is already a thread on this started by Newsguy, please merge these two.

[KettleWhistle]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.Begin was a weak leader. Shamir has done some good things, but mishandled even more. He should've settled the territories with Soviet alim. Netanyahu is the Israeli version of the Slick Willy (Clinton)--a selfserving politician. Sharon, like I said, is just an old man.

Today is truly a sad day in Jewish history.

[Justcurious]

There is already a thread on this started by Newsguy, please merge these two.

Yes, I thought this thread on the feelings before the vote was close, but it was not on the result, in fact.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7156

Do as you please!

[eyl]

The form may be the Left's but I wouldn't trust them with the execution.

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

[minusthejihad]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

You sound just like Deepak Chopra on Dennis Miller last night. Its always so easy for the "thinkers" to come up with all the solutions that always work in theory, but its people on the ground protecting your arse that have to face reality every day.

[danholo]

Well, the Knesset okayed the plan so well have to see what the concequences are. It could be Sharon's head, literally. There are true crazies around there.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, the Knesset okayed the plan so well have to see what the concequences are. It could be Sharon's head, literally. There are true crazies around there.
Unlikely, because it will not do anything to change this plan. But I wouldn't mind if somebody blew up the atrocity on top of the Temple Mount.

[NewsGuy]

Time after time, we see that right wing leaders rise to power on popular promises of the magic formula to fight terror using harsh means and force.

Only when they sit on the throne, they discover that using such means does not bring the expected result, instead it weakens Israel in the int'l arena. So they "wisen up" and implement the unpopulat left wing solutions of withdrawal.

This was true for Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu and now Sharon.

How much more is needed to realise which side holds the correct, realistic solution, and which side holds the popular but unrealistic one?

people will always react to events with their gut feelings, instead of using their heads.

Not really.

The centerist solution, which is that there is no negotiating with terrorists, is so far the only effective solution even if it is not yet perfected.

Let's not forget that Israel has tried the Leftist solution, which was to give the Palestinians huge chunks of the land to control independently, and the only result was the Palestinians escalating their Jihad, building up a weapons manufacturing infrastructure and mass-murdering more than a thousand innocent Jews. In fact, the Palestinians never used their independence for anything constructive or peaceful.

So, after the Leftist failure to pacify arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat despite Barak's best efforts, Sharon was elected by a landslide to deal forcefully with the latest Palestinian Jihad war of extermination of the Jews.

There has never been a successful Leftist approach to the Palestinian problem. And, in truth, a limited military solution is not successful either, although the broader the military action, the more of the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure has been destroyed, and we no longer are seeing daily suicide bombings as was the case just a few years ago.

As for the ethnic cleansing in Gaza, it is a huge mistake that will be irreversable. The main problems are that Israel will again be perceived as being defeated by terrorism and running scared under terrorist fire. And, juts as importantly, Israel is missing a historic opportunity ot demand reciprocity from the Palestinians -- for every Jewish settlement that is evacuated, there should be one Arab settlement that is evacuated in return. But under this plan, the Jews lose.

Tell me, do you think that ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip will make Israel more secure?

I don't think so. In fact, we know that the same houses used to raise Jewish children will now become property of Arafat and the Hamas to manufacture more weapons to be used to mass-murder those very same Jewish children in whose houses the terrorists will now be living.

And what will Israel do when the Hamas start firing Kassams from Neve Dekalim into the rest of Israel? Will Peres, Sarid and Lapid join Sharon in giving the Palestinians Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as their reward?

This whole evacuation is a big mistake.

[alexbmn]

the leftist solution is responsible for 1000+dead Jews.The rightist solution is slowly erasing terror to nothing.

[danholo]

I don't think so. In fact, we know that the same houses used to raise Jewish children will now become property of Arafat and the Hamas to manufacture more weapons to be used to mass-murder those very same Jewish children in whose houses the terrorists will now be living.

That won't happen. According to the disengagement plan buildings like homes and synagogues will be razed during the pull out.

[sharonbn]

Tell me, do you think that ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip will make Israel more secure?

yes. the less friction there is between Israeli and Pal population, the better defense the army can provide to the general population. Of course the army should continue in its successful campaign against Pal terrorism. But fighting terrorism must not be the goal and the only course of action. The goal is achieving an agreement with Pal leadership and let them rule their 3 million people.

Also, on a higher level I will note that dismantling Israeli colonies from occupied territories, territories that legally foreign country - this the right thing to do. Israelis have no business and no legal right to settle in a foreign land, just because they conquered it be force. Same as the Chiense have no right to settle in Tibet. The fact that Jews used to live in these places some time in the distant past bares no significance over the present, unless you want the British, Turks, Egyptians, Romans, etc. to stake their claim over the land.

[Mediocrates]

Well then it's equally true that if there is no basis for them to be there there is also no basis for them to be anywhere else. It's the same thing Hamas says - basically as long as anyone can make any claim whatsoever that there was a time that such and such Jews did not live there then the entirety of your claim over the entirety of Israel is therefore valid.


Of course you wouldn't make such a ridiculous claim because then we would all have to play stupid games in Post-Colonialism 101 class and revert to whatever 'homelands' we came from in the distant murky past then wouldn't we? I'm pretty sure you can't trace your lineage back oh 30 generations to the land you stand on now. So where would you like to move?

See it's dumb game to play. Eventually if you take this argument to its insane conclusion you would have maybe 5 million 'natives' on all of North America, you'd have maybe Bretons and Celts and Franks and Romans in Europe, you'd have to give Libya back to the Cartheginians and Russia back to the Mongols and so on. And then we'd be forced to evict almost all of the muslims everywhere from their countries since they, after all, took all of it at the point of a sword.

Maybe that goes for progress nowadays. But why am I wasting my time with you? You'll just lash out and call me a nutcase.

carry on...

[Ophra]

Today is truly a sad day in Jewish history.

And a wonderful day in Israeli history .... three cheers for Ariel Sharon and for Shinui and for the secular majority of the State of Israel.

A post just for you KettleWhistle.... today is the anniversary of Rabin's murder by your ilk.... he who pissed on Rabin's grave (KettleWhistle)... we the people of Israel despise you religious extremists ... and we will have our way.. have no doubt about it.

Well said sharonbn.... you are not alone.

[Hisardut]

let them have gaza, let them have that sesspool. i hope they do something dumb to force egypt in there and massacre them all

i agree that 10000 pali's from west bank should have been moved to gaza

[KSO]

[QUOTE=Ophra]And a wonderful day in Israeli history .... three cheers for Ariel Sharon and for Shinui and for the secular majority of the State of Israel./QUOTE]

I don't know if it's a wonderfull day... The complete distruction of the PA and the relatively moderates in the autonomy brought the result of a complete lack of leadership, and I'm afraid that shortly enough the Hamas (or other extremists) will take over the Strip, but let's hope the Sharon goverment be smart enough to leave some sort of leadership and not rely on idiotic Ronnie Reagan rhetorique "We don't negotiate with evil dudes!!!"

[NewsGuy]

yes. the less friction there is between Israeli and Pal population, the better defense the army can provide to the general population. Of course the army should continue in its successful campaign against Pal terrorism. But fighting terrorism must not be the goal and the only course of action. The goal is achieving an agreement with Pal leadership and let them rule their 3 million people.
ok, so what will Israel do to "reduce the friction" when the Palestinians now understand very well that their terrorism has won the war against Israel, and the Palestinians therefore continue to fire Kassams into the rest of Israel?

And should Israel also reduce the friction by removing Jews from Jerusalem? Tel Aviv? Haifa?

And, most importantly, if reducing the friction is the issue, then why not remove the Arab settlers who live in Israel? Is ethnic cleansing only permissible against Jews?


Also, on a higher level I will note that dismantling Israeli colonies from occupied territories, territories that legally foreign country - this the right thing to do. Israelis have no business and no legal right to settle in a foreign land, just because they conquered it be force. Same as the Chiense have no right to settle in Tibet. The fact that Jews used to live in these places some time in the distant past bares no significance over the present, unless you want the British, Turks, Egyptians, Romans, etc. to stake their claim over the land.
First of all, the only reason that the Turks, Egyptians, Romans do not still own Israel, is that they were defeated militarily in a decisive, smashing victory by their opponents. Otherwise, you would be speaking in Turkish right now.

And let's even say for the sake of argument that Gaza is not part of Israel, because in '48 the UN gave it to the Palestinians (a plan that was officially rejected by the Palestinians and all other Arabs states). Does this mean that Jews are not entitled to live in a place that has an Arab majority? In that case, isn't it time to have a reciprocal population transfer whereby the Arabs must leave Israel?

[sharonbn]

ok, so what will Israel do to "reduce the friction" when the Palestinians now understand very well that their terrorism has won the war against Israel, and the Palestinians therefore continue to fire Kassams into the rest of Israel?
Yes, this may well be the consequences of the disengagement. But who do we have to thank for this? Sharon and the right wing.
If Sharon would suggest the disengagement to Abu Mazen when he was Pal PM, the disengagement would be a bi-lateral move, with someone to take over on the Pal side, and also hold off qassam firing. but no, Sharon with his strong hand managed to crash the PA and we are left with Hamas, IJ and other terrorist gangs.

I don't claim that PA wasn't engaged in terror. it was. but it was also an organized body with whom you could speak and agree an a plan. Now, thx to Sharon there is really no one to talk to on the other side, so uni-lateral moves is all that's left to do.

Like before yon kipur war, Like in Lebanon, It is Israel with its unrational stuburness that teaches the Arabs that we only understand force.


And should Israel also reduce the friction by removing Jews from Jerusalem? Tel Aviv? Haifa?
Why would this reduce friction? No Pals living there.


And, most importantly, if reducing the friction is the issue, then why not remove the Arab settlers who live in Israel? Is ethnic cleansing only permissible against Jews?
I am certainly for such a move. I will gladly give Um El Fahem to PA. Israel needs to strengthen its Jewish majority and I personally would not miss the Arabs.

Of cource, I am not talking about ternsfer of Arabs from their homes. The reason is that the Arabs were living there before the Jews came to Israel, so there is no justification for such transfer.


First of all, the only reason that the Turks, Egyptians, Romans do not still own Israel, is that they were defeated militarily in a decisive, smashing victory by their opponents. Otherwise, you would be speaking in Turkish right now.
Please refresh my memory: weren't the Jews "defeated militarily in a decisive, smashing victory by their opponents", the Assyrians and Babylonians? what is it that gives the Jews right over the land they lost some 2,000 years ago, and at the same time strips the Turks of the same right?

My answer is that the reason for the establishment of the state of Israel is not to return to the biblical kingdom. It is to provide safe haven for Jews, something that everyone realised is necessary after the Holocaust. That is also the reason that Israel must survive - I do believe that it is essential to the survival of the Jewish people. In my eyes, that reason does not diminish Arab claim to their own self rule, based on indeginuos right. Historically, when we lost the land - we lost the land. When Zionists came back to Israel, Arabs were here, They have a right for the land.


And let's even say for the sake of argument that Gaza is not part of Israel, because in '48 the UN gave it to the Palestinians (a plan that was officially rejected by the Palestinians and all other Arabs states). Does this mean that Jews are not entitled to live in a place that has an Arab majority? In that case, isn't it time to have a reciprocal population transfer whereby the Arabs must leave Israel?
I'm sorry, but it does not work that way.
When a people conquer a piece of land by force and settle it, they cannot claim they are simple living there. This is par-excelance colonialism.

I assume no one will say that the Chienese have any right what-so-ever to Tibet. Everyone understands why Tibetans don't want Chienese settlers in their land and no one will call Chiense dismantling of their settlements "ethnic cleansing" because thay are foriegners in Tibet, no matter how many and how long they are there.

Like the Chienese, the Israelis are foriegn colonizers in GS.

The only differece, in my eyes, between Tibet and GS is that the Chienese were luckey to conquer the most pacifistic people on earth, and also that no one in the world cares or dares oppose Chiense occupation.

If the Pals were the same as Tibetans, they would have the same fate. Israel would not give them a state of their own out of its good will. Israel would not even give them citizenship (we need Jewish najority, remember?) so, if it wasn't for Pal forceful strugle, they would remain in refugee camps forever, like Tibetans.

[KettleWhistle]

And a wonderful day in Israeli history .... three cheers for Ariel Sharon and for Shinui and for the secular majority of the State of Israel.

A post just for you KettleWhistle.... today is the anniversary of Rabin's murder by your ilk.... he who pissed on Rabin's grave (KettleWhistle)... we the people of Israel despise you religious extremists ... and we will have our way.. have no doubt about it.

Well said sharonbn.... you are not alone.
Start investing in casket makers. Their stocks will be going up very very soon.

BTW, I'm an atheist.

[KettleWhistle]

And I'd love to see how you will cheer when the camel jockeys will be shelling you with rockets, when you and your children will be killed, when you will be told to leave your home. Don't delude yourself, you just moved one step up in the queue.

[Mediocrates]

It's convenient I guess to posit that there is never a circumstance where the PLO is actually politically responsible for the consequences of their own actions. Since you assume that is true by definition a priori then what would be the point of even establishing a PLO state? After all they're not responsible for the past, present, and the future. You've made a woderful case for unilateral action because not only is there no one else to talk to, there never will be.

[KettleWhistle]

As I pointed out elsewhere, the PLO state wouldn't be viable anyway, so they will either have to federate with Jordan and Egypt, or to continue to mooch Israel for resourses. I find the latter to be unacceptable, but it is important to cut out the cancer. So I support unilateral action. I just don't support removing the settlers.

[cobe]

Unitlateral pullout will be a very positive step in ensuring the future of Israel as a Jewish State. First of all, it will cut off 1.3 million Palestinian Arabs from Israel's growing demographic crisis. It will also help the settlement of the Negev and the Gallilee which are essential to Israel not turning into a majority Arab/Muslim nation in another 20 years.

[NewsGuy]

Yes, this may well be the consequences of the disengagement. But who do we have to thank for this? Sharon and the right wing.
If Sharon would suggest the disengagement to Abu Mazen when he was Pal PM, the disengagement would be a bi-lateral move, with someone to take over on the Pal side, and also hold off qassam firing. but no, Sharon with his strong hand managed to crash the PA and we are left with Hamas, IJ and other terrorist gangs.
I'm surprised to read this, because to put things in perspective, we need to remember that Sharon's landslide election came after the complete failure of the Left to achieve peace with Arafat. It was shown plainly that even with a 98% solution offered to Arafat, the Palestinians had absolutely no interest in making peace and having a state. Instead, the Palestinians turned to their real agenda and national dream of Jihad-genocide against the Jews.

So, to say that it was Sharon's fault is really re-writing history. The Palestinian violence and Jihad did not come in response to Sharon -- It was Sharon who came in response to Palestinian violence and Jihad.

I don't claim that PA wasn't engaged in terror. it was. but it was also an organized body with whom you could speak and agree an a plan. Now, thx to Sharon there is really no one to talk to on the other side, so uni-lateral moves is all that's left to do.
Help me understand what your saying - It's ok to negotiate with terrorists who are actively engaged in mass-murdering your fellow countrymen, just so long as they will do you the great honor of "talking" with them?

The fact is that the reason that there is no one on the Palestinian side to talk to is that the primitive and violent Palestinian culture will not allow any leader to make peace with Jews. And anyone who steps up to talk with Jews is immediately slaughtered as a traitor. That's the real reason that there is no Palestinian to talk to about making peace -- even if we would pretend that peace is possible at all.


Like before yon kipur war, Like in Lebanon, It is Israel with its unrational stuburness that teaches the Arabs that we only understand force.
No, it's Leftist mistakes like running scared from Lebanon under terrorist fire that taught the Palestinians that Leftists can be defeated that way. And that's not just my opinion. It happens to be what the Hamas leaders say openly that they learned from Hizbullah.

Why would this reduce friction? No Pals living there.
I think that this gets to a fundamental mistake. You would like to think that the Arab occupiers of Haifa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are "Israeli-Arabs." But that is an illusion that is proven to be wrong time and time again. The Arabs are Palestinians by their own description, not Israelis, no matter how much you hope for that.

And you know very well that you wouldn't dare walk through Um al Fahm or Haifa's or Yaffo's Arab neighborhoods at night, because as much as you wish that the Arabs would admire your enlightenment, they really have one dream, which is to murder Israelis. Of course not all Israeli-Arabs, but a considerable number, and the rest still don't feel like they're your fellow countrymen anyway.

Of cource, I am not talking about ternsfer of Arabs from their homes. The reason is that the Arabs were living there before the Jews came to Israel, so there is no justification for such transfer.
Of course there's a justification for their transfer. It should be part of a reciprocal population transfer to reduce friction and to save lives by separating between the sides.

But I understand that for many Leftists, it's perfectly ok to ethnically cleanse parts of the Jewish homeland of its Jewish residents, but it's a human rights violation to send Arabs back to their own brothers in Jordan, Egypt and even Gaza where they can live independently in peace and dignity.

Please refresh my memory: weren't the Jews "defeated militarily in a decisive, smashing victory by their opponents", the Assyrians and Babylonians? what is it that gives the Jews right over the land they lost some 2,000 years ago, and at the same time strips the Turks of the same right?
Yes, and when the Jews were defeated militarily, they were removed from their lands by force, no questions asked.

The only right the Jews have to return to the Jewish homeland is as follows:

1. Some Jews always remained on their land.
2. Buying the land from the Turks and Arabs.
3. By license from the rulers of the land, like the Turks and their predecessors.
4. By the Arab countries ordering the Arab residents of Israel to vacate their land to make way for the Arab armies to enter and slaughter all Jews in 1948. And the Arabs residents did, in fact, leave their land for the Jews to settle as a result of those orders.
5. By UN resolutions calling for the establishment of a Jewish State.

My answer is that the reason for the establishment of the state of Israel is not to return to the biblical kingdom. It is to provide safe haven for Jews, something that everyone realised is necessary after the Holocaust.

That may be your opinion based on your personal ideology, but the official Declaration of Independence as written by the founders of Israel tells a different story:

"the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.

[...]


THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel..."

I know that basing the right of the Jews to live in the Jewish homeland on things like the bible and the prophets is a difficult thing for many modern-day Israelis, but that's how it is.

[KettleWhistle]

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel..."

I know that basing the right of the Jews to live in the Jewish homeland on things like the bible and the prophets is a difficult thing for many modern-day Israelis, but that's how it is.
For some the Bible and the prophets are important, and for others they aren't. That's no reason to reject the Land of Israel. Eretz Israel being our motherland is a reason enough for Jews to live there, to have a country there, and to defend it against foreingers, Arabs, and any others.

[jerryta]

THE CASE AGAINST REFERENDUM

It has been proposed to hold a referendum on the government’s plan to evacuate Gaza and four West Bank settlements. Proponents argue that a referendum will give democratic legitimacy to the government’s plan, especially since the issue was not around at the time of the last elections. Furthermore, for a referendum to mean anything, it has been suggested that the results be binding. I argue that by deciding this complex issue by means of a referendum, the government will be shirking its responsibility and abdicating the role for which it was chosen. This is so whether you agree or disagree with the planned disengagement. If the proposed plan is approved by a referendum and the results turn out badly (say chaos, a terror enclave and continuing hostilities in Gaza), the government is no longer responsible since it has merely carried out the declared will of the people. Alternatively, if the plan is rejected, the government cannot be held to task for the adverse consequences (say adverse international political fallout) that may come from remaining in Gaza.
Single issue referendums have several major difficulties. Most importantly, a single issue cannot be judged in isolation. Ask anyone if he would prefer to pay more or less tax and surely he will answer less tax. But ask if he is prepared to suffer the consequences of unbalanced budgets, inflation, decreased public services, decreased military expenditures etc and be might respond differently (hence the debate about how to frame the question). In California, referendum Proposition 13 was passed in 1978, later extended with referendum Propositions 62 and 98, limiting the government’s ability to raise property taxes and requiring 70% of the state budget to be earmarked in advance (for education, etc). By 2003 California’s economy was in a shambles with a 13 billion dollar shortfall over the next two years. In Oregon, a referendum decreasing property taxes deprived the state of 10% of its revenues and forced a reduction in spending on police and higher education. In both cases, the undesirable effects of the referendum could not be blamed on the government. In fact the responsibility should be placed on the referendum system itself, which deprives the people of a government that takes responsibility for the totality of its programs and must later be judged by the results at the next election. A government cannot be judged successful if it abides by the desire of a majority on one particular issue and in so doing creates catastrophic consequences from related issues.
In a representative democracy the voters are not expected to vote on every issue – their chosen representatives, presumably more informed about conflicting priorities and far-ranging consequences, are chosen to do this. That a new and unanticipated problem has arisen since the last election does not alter this fact. Otherwise, new elections would be required for every change of the geopolitical or military situation. If a majority (in the case of Gaza, most likely a plurality of registered voters since turnout will likely not be massive) indicates a preference for a particular program, this cannot be the sole criterion for that program. Does it conflict with other goals? Will the consequences of that program have adverse effects? How will minorities be affected? Are compromises available? Etc. Voters in a single issue referendum are less likely to make these judgments. More significantly they are not faced with the responsibility if they get it wrong. If the government is deadlocked, elections would provide a more reasonable course, establishing a new government, entrusted with formulating and executing a comprehensive program with consideration of multiple priorities and long-range implications. Most importantly, such a government would be obliged to stake its prestige and authority on the outcome.
It has been said that one of the major features of a true democracy is the option to boot out the rascals in power. For example, the stunning defeat of the Labor and Meretz parties in the last elections indicated voter disappointment with the dangerous and chaotic situation resulting from the negotiations with the Palestinians and the resulting intifada. A Gaza referendum, shifting responsibility to a likely plurality of voters, less well situated to evaluate the wide-ranging consequences of a complex political issue and free of responsibility for the results deprives the people of the opportunity to place the blame or to reward the success of a complex policy. This does not seem to add democratic legitimacy to the result.
One could hardly imagine an airline captain asking his passengers to vote on how to proceed in the presence of an unexpected weather problem or for a doctor to ask for a vote of the emergency room staff about how to handle a critical medical emergency. The pilot and the doctor have been authorized to take these decisions. Similarly the elected government has been authorized to manage the affairs of state and most voters would probably prefer that it shoulders this responsibility. If the government is unable or unwilling to do this, either it should adjust its program to one it can fully support and promote or else allow new elections. A referendum won’t legitimize the decision on a shaky government program about which even the government itself cannot agree.


Gerald Kessler 17/10/04

[Ophra]

On the Road to Civil War

For over a quarter of a century Israeli society has allowed a cancer to grow unchecked. Only now has it begun to wake up to the danger, but it may be already too late.

Everybody in Israel is talking about the Next War. The most popular TV channel is running a whole series about it.

Not another war with the Arabs. Not the nuclear threat from Iran. Not the ongoing bloody confrontation with the Palestinians. The talk is about the coming civil war.

Only a few months ago, that would have sounded preposterous. Now, suddenly, is has become a possibility, and a very real one. Not another blown-up media sensation. Not yet another of Sharon’s political manipulations. Not just a new blackmail attempt by the settlers, but the real thing, in the flesh.

They talk about it at cabinet meetings and in the Knesset, on TV talk-shows, in editorials and the news pages. The Chief-of-Staff has publicly warned that the army may fall apart. One of the ministers says that the very existence of the State of Israel is in danger. Another minister prophesies a bloodbath like the Spanish civil war.

Quietly and not so quietly, the Shin Bet is taking precautions. The prison service has been ordered to prepare facilities for mass detentions. The army leadership is planning the call-up of 10 thousand reserve soldiers and starting to think about the steps they must take in the case of…

No, it’s a very real threat. On the face of it, it may seem to have appeared from nowhere. But whoever has eyes to see knew that it is going to happen, sooner or later.

The seeds of the civil war were sown when the first settlement was put up in the occupied territories. At the time, I told the Prime Minister in the Knesset: “You are laying a land mine. Some day you will have to dismantle it. As a former soldier, let me warn you that the dismantling of land mines is a very unpleasant job.” Since then, hundreds of mines have been laid. The minefields are being extended even now.

The process has been led by religious fundamentalists. Their declared aim, as they said then and never tire of repeating, is to drive all the Arabs out of the country that God promised us. And the land God promised us, as one of them reminded us on TV the other day, is not the “Palestine” of the British mandate, but the Promised Land - including Jordan, Lebanon and parts of Syria and Sinai. Quoting the Bible, another one declared that we have come to this country not only to inherit, but also to disinherit the others, to drive them out and take their place.
Since the then Minister of Defence, Shimon Peres, implanted the first settlement, Kedumim, in the middle of the Palestinian population on the West Bank, the settlements have spread like locusts. Every settlement has gradually stolen the lands and water of the neighboring Palestinian villages, uprooted their trees, blocked their roads and built new roads, barred to Palestinians. Almost all the settlements have spawned satellite outposts on the nearby hills.

This has never ceased, even after Sharon solemnly promised President Bush to dismantle the “outposts”. On the contrary, since then dozens of new one have sprung up, and not one has been dismantled. A recently published finding by the State Comptroller details how several government ministries actively and knowingly subverted the law in order to ensure continued clandestine government funding for settlement activities.

When we warned of the danger, we were told to relax. Only a small minority of the settlers, we were comforted, are fanatical kooks. These are indeed crazy and will forcibly resist any attempt to remove them. But that will not be a big problem, because the vast majority of Israeli citizens detest them and consider them nuttier than fruitcakes.

Most of the settlers, we were told, are not fanatics. They went there because the government presented them with expensive villas, which they could not even dream about in Israel proper. They were looking for “quality of life”. When the government tells them to move, they will take the compensation and move on.
This was a dangerous delusion. As Karl Marx observed, people’s consciousness is determined by their situation. The good Laborites who were implanted by the Labor government on the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip now talk and behave like the worst followers of the late fascist rabbi Meir Kahane.

Moreover, we were told, even the weirdos recognize Israeli democracy. Nobody will raise his hands against soldiers of the Israeli army. When the government and the Knesset decide to evacuate settlements, they will obey. They may raise a ruckus and put up a show of resistance, as they did during the evacuation of the North Sinai settlements in 1982, but at the end of the day they will give in. After all, even in North Sinai not one single settler refused, in the end, to accept their compensation.

But this disdain for the settlers is no less dangerous than the disdain for the Arabs. What had been hidden all the time is now becoming clear: the settlers don’t give a damn for democracy and the institutions of the state. Their hard core spells it out: when the resolutions of the Knesset contradict the Halakha (Jewish religious law), the Halakha has priority. After all, the Knesset is just a gang of corrupt politicians. And what value have the secular laws, copied from the Goyim (Gentiles), compared to the word of God, blessed be his name?
Many settlers do not yet say so openly and pretend to be insulted when such attitudes are attributed to them, but in fact they are dragged along by the hard core that has already thrown off all the masks. They challenge not only the policy of the government, but Israeli democracy as such. They declare openly that their aim is to transform Israel from a democratic republic into a Halakhic one.

A State of Law is subject to the will of the majority, which enacts the laws and amends them as necessary. The State of the Halakha is subject to the Torah, revealed once and for all on Mount Sinai and unchangeable. Only a very small number of eminent rabbis have the authority to interpret the Halakha. That is, of course, the opposite of democracy. In any other country, these people would be called fascists. The religious coloration makes no difference.

The religious-rightist rebels are powerfully motivated. Many of them believe in most xenophobic interpretations of the Kabbala, which, state that secular Jews are really Amalekites who succeeded in infiltrating the People of Israel at the time of the exodus from Egypt. God Himself has commanded, as everyone knows, the eradication of Amalek from the face of the earth. Can there be a more perfect ideological basis for civil war?

Why has this become a threat at this point in time? It is not yet clear whether Sharon really intends to dismantle the few settlements in the Gaza Strip. But as the settlers see it, even the idea of removing one single settlement is a casus belli. It attacks everything that is holy to them. Sharon tried to convince them that it is only a ploy – to sacrifice a few small settlements in order to save all the others. In vain.

In preparation for the Great Rebellion, the settlers have unveiled their potential. The most eminent rabbis of the “Religious Zionist movement” have declared that the evacuation of a settlement is a sin against God and have called upon the soldiers to refuse orders. Hundreds of rabbis, including the rabbis of the settlements and the rabbis of the religious units in the army have joined the call.

The voice of the few opponents is being drowned out. They quote the Talmudic saying “the law of the kingdom is law”, meaning that every government has to be obeyed, much as Christians are required to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, etc. But who listens to these “moderate rabbis” now?

The conquest of the army from the inside began long ago. The “arrangement” with the “yeshivot hesder”, that serve in the army as separate units, has allowed the entry of a stable of Trojan horses into the IDF, including its officer corps. In any confrontation between their rabbis and their army commanders, the majority of the soldiers of the yeshivas will obey the rabbis.

The fact that the settlers and the Hesder Yeshiva have systematically penetrated the ranks of the officers’ corps means that they can attempt barratry, potentially even more dangerous than mutiny.

The right-wing refusal to obey orders is unlike the left-wing conscientious objection. The leftist refusal is a personal stand, the rightist refusal a collective mutiny. On the left, a few hundred refused to serve the occupation, on the right, many thousands, even tens of thousands, will obey their rabbis’ orders to refuse. As the Chief-of-Staff has warned, the army may disintegrate.

Altogether, the settlers, together with their close allies in Israel including the yeshiva students, may amount to something like half a million people, a mighty phalanx for rebellion.
As of now, the settlers are only using this threat as an instrument for blackmail and deterrence, in order to choke off any thought of evacuating settlements and territories. But if the blackmail does not do the job, the Great Rebellion is just a matter of time.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=11369

[KSO]

On the Road to Civil War...
While I understand that there are many Insane people in the extreme right wing camp we must watch closely on the goverment if they'll start mass aressts and mass detentions against Israeli Citizens, because in a certain situation such actions can lead to a big leap backward for our democracy, Right Wing Refusal just as Left Wing refusal should be allowed, If someone can't morally evacuate Jewish settlers he shouldn't take part in those actions just as someone who can't serve in the occupied territories shouldn't take part in this, on both occasions there will be more than enough soldiers who'll agree to take part in this.

[KettleWhistle]

While I understand that there are many Insane people in the extreme right wing camp we must watch closely on the goverment if they'll start mass aressts and mass detentions against Israeli Citizens, because in a certain situation such actions can lead to a big leap backward for our democracy, Right Wing Refusal just as Left Wing refusal should be allowed, If someone can't morally evacuate Jewish settlers he shouldn't take part in those actions just as someone who can't serve in the occupied territories shouldn't take part in this, on both occasions there will be more than enough soldiers who'll agree to take part in this.
If someone refuses to serve on the Arab-occupied territories, they should be dishonorably discharged and thrown into a labor camp for a few years. And if someone is willing to participate in ethnic cleansing of Jews from the settlements, they have no morals, honor, or love for their people and their country.

Israelis have become big-time covards as of late. They care more about what Europe says than what's morally right. They lost any sense of pride in serving their country. And they learned to run instead of confronting the enemy. I feel both shame and sorrow to see Israel deteriorate that way, but that's what happens when people are more concerned about their immediate comfort than about what they can do for their country.

[Mediocrates]

Gerald I too agree that referenda are like punting. We elect these people to lead and if they toss it back to us then it just shows they don't even have the strength of will to ACT like they have the courage of their convictions. Moreover referenda appeal to the most emotional least informed segments of the population who wave the referendum around like a proxy flag for all the other things they don't like.If they want a committment then they should be willing to rewrite their own Consitutions, or in Israel's case make an unbreakable national law.

[Ophra]

This post stands as a protest for all of the Israelies reading these forums who are sickened by KettleWhistle's signature :

http://www.maarivintl.com/newsimages/kikar%20rabin.bmp

Over 60,000 at Rabin memorial rally in Tel Aviv

His spirit lives on, and will endure forever.

Tens of thousands attended the memorial rally in Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square this evening, to mark the ninth anniversary of his assassination by convicted murderer Yigal Amir.

The organizers said nearly 100,000 people participated, police estimate around 60,000.

The late premier’s daughter Dalia Rabin-Philosof said that the murder was not the act of an insolated kook, but a planned assassination by dangerous fanatics to achieve by the bullet what they could not achieve by the ballot.

Among the public figures who addressed the crowd were Tel Aviv mayor Ron Huldai, Ben Gurion University President Prof. Avishai Braverman, actress Osnat Vishinsky, whose son was recently killed while serving in the IDF in Gaza, journalist Tali Lipkin Shahak and former Supreme Justice Meir Shamgar.

Ehud Barak and Shimon Peres attended, but did not address the crowd, at the specific request of the organizers, who wanted to avoid giving a memorial rally an overly overt political nature.

However some of the speakers addressed the disengagement issue in their speeches, praising it as an act of statesmanship vital to the well being of the state.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=11457

[KettleWhistle]

Over 60,000 at Rabin memorial rally in Tel Aviv

His spirit lives on, and will endure forever.

Tens of thousands attended the memorial rally in Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square this evening, to mark the ninth anniversary of his assassination by convicted murderer Yigal Amir.

The herd goes to pray to the spirit of the Master. Yahoo!

Now on to the reality:

Hitler killed 6+ million Jews.
Rabin -- only 1000+ (and counting)

Thank you Igal Amir!

[KSO]

The herd goes to pray to the spirit of the Master. Yahoo!

Now on to the reality:

Hitler killed 6+ million Jews.
Rabin -- only 1000+ (and counting)

Thank you Igal Amir!
Sharon
2000+ (brilliant lebanon war + Refusal to negotiate or to build fence when that was unpopular)
Thank you KettkeWhistle!??...

[KettleWhistle]

Sharon
2000+ (brilliant lebanon war + Refusal to negotiate or to build fence when that was unpopular)
Thank you KettkeWhistle!??...
And what was wrong with the Lebanon war? Most people, even those who opposed it at the time, now acknoledge it was the right thing to do.

And refusal to negotiate with terrorists? Nope, that's not a problem.