The most tolerant Europeans to Islamic fanaticism fast become most intolerant

[Leon]

Dutch find the strength to take on their 'new Nazis'

Got thefollowing article from London's daily telegrapth via Aussie Tim Blair

http://www.timblair.org/:


The assassination of Theo van Gogh, the Dutch film-maker whose funeral took place yesterday, is something new in Europe. There are, of course, antecedents. Fifteen years have passed since Ayatollah Khomeini issued his fatwa against Salman Rushdie: the first shot in the culture war between fundamentalist Islam and the West. But there is no precedent for the ritual slaughter of a prominent artist in broad daylight on the streets of Amsterdam.



For the Dutch, this murder is not only sinister: it is symbolic. Van Gogh - distantly related to Holland's most celebrated artist - was shot on his bicycle, another national emblem. As he writhed on the ground, the murderer cut his throat without mercy and left him with two knives protruding from his body: a method that is apparently common in North Africa, but unheard of here. Just in case there was any doubt about the symbolism of this butchery, a note was found pinned to his chest, containing death threats against three other public figures.

The resonance of this hideous crime, not only in the Netherlands, but across the whole of continental Europe, is difficult for the British to comprehend. We have no conception of the status accorded to the artist in countries that have known totalitarian dictatorship within living memory. The Nazis and the Communists liquidated or exiled the intelligentsia wherever they could. Persecution cast a shadow across the Continent from which it has still not wholly recovered.

Hence the reverence in which the artist is held. Hence the cult of dissent at any price, however absurd, pretentious or childish. Hence the aversion to censorship of any kind, including self-censorship. For a post-traumatic culture, the artist is a high priest. The murder of an artist for the sake of his art shocks secular Europe rather as martyrdom once shocked Christendom. Theo van Gogh is a secular martyr.

What had he done to deserve such a fate? Submission, the film that occasioned the attack, is by no means an attack on Islam as a religion. It does not, as Rushdie did, ridicule the Prophet Mohammed. What it does is to denounce the barbaric treatment of women in many Islamic societies, focusing attention on forced marriage and the penalisation of rape victims under the guise of adultery. The imagery is deliberately provocative: verses from the Koran are inscribed on a naked woman, to drive home the message that Muslim women are human, too, beneath the veil.

It does not require much imagination to see how this tableau would strike strict Muslims, who regard the Koran as the literal, uncreated word of God, and whose customs forbid the public display of the female face, let alone her body. To them, the broadcast of such an image on television is both blasphemy and sacrilege. In their eyes, it adds to the gravity of the case that the Somali woman who wrote the script of Submission, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is a former Muslim - in other words, an apostate. She has been condemned by fatwa and survives only under police protection.

Van Gogh, as a non-Muslim, was mistakenly assumed, both by the authorities and himself, to be less at risk. In his book Allah Knows Better, however, he added insult to injury by castigating the misogyny and puritanical attitudes of local imams. Defiant to the last, he refused to alter his bohemian lifestyle, as if the Netherlands were still the haven of toleration that it had been since the revolt against Spanish rule four centuries ago.

That habit of toleration is an integral part of Dutch identity. Van Gogh's death, like that of the politician Pim Fortuyn two years ago, echoed the assassination in 1584 of the Prince of Orange, William the Silent, who is still seen as a martyr not only to the Protestant cause, but also to that of freedom of conscience. The words of the historian Motley about William the Silent - "When he died, the little children cried in the streets" - could have been said yesterday of Theo van Gogh.

In the 17th century, Holland was the only country in Europe where a Jewish apostate, Spinoza, could publish philosophical works challenging the very basis of revealed religion. The Jewish community could expel and curse Spinoza, but neither Jew nor Christian dared to harm him.

Only under German occupation was this tradition of toleration interrupted and temporarily crushed. When the Dutch Catholic bishops made a protest, the Germans responded by deporting clergy of Jewish origin, including the nun, philosopher and saint Edith Stein to Auschwitz. Anne Frank and her family were protected for four years, only to be betrayed as liberation approached. The bitter experience of occupation and collaboration has made the Dutch hypersensitive to intolerance in any form.

Now, with the manifestation of a violent form of intolerance in their midst, the iron has entered their souls. After decades of welcoming immigration and preaching multiculturalism, they now propose to expel failed asylum-seekers and to assimilate those who settle, rather than permit de facto religious segregation. If neo-conservatives are liberals who have been mugged by reality, the Dutch are fast becoming a nation of neo-conservatives.

While the Arab-European League accused the Dutch immigration minister of giving a "Hitler speech" at a rally in protest at van Gogh's murder, the Dutch know who the real Hitlers are. Even the most liberal society is illiberal when it is a question of survival. The Dutch see those who dream of Europe under a revived caliphate as a threat to their way of life. The prospect of Islamist imams imposing sharia law on Dutch cities amounts, they feel, to a new Nazi occupation.

Unlike his great, great, great uncle Vincent, Theo van Gogh was not a genius. Was he really an artist at all? But van Gogh's murder has proved him right about the hardline Islamists. Their ideology is inimical to all that the Dutch hold dear. Last night, as van Gogh's cremation was seen on television, the tension was palpable. Holland is now the crucible of Europe. Not even the most tolerant people on earth can tolerate the Islamists.

[Ahava]

The stupidity continues. A man who carried explosives with him meant for an attack, has been released because of lack of evidence. Are you freaking kiddin' me? That's Dutch business. But I do see a change. The people are fed up, so the authorities are forced to change.

[RichardP]

Our thoughts are with the good people of the Netherlands! Perhaps, other Europeans will be shaken from their complacency.

[SteveMetch]

What’s the big deal? The US had over 3,000 people brutally murdered on 9-11 by the followers of the religion of peace. They didn’t even release a film that dared to expose the Islamic treatment of woman. Their crime was just showing up to work before 9 am.

How many mosques were burned in the US after 9-11? How many dual US citizens were deported after 9-11?

The Netherlands has one person brutally murdered and the European citizens are practically ready to start their own Jihad against the Muslims.

How many Jewish babies in Israel have met a similar cold blooded murder resting in their cribs as Theo van Gogh’s? Yet Israel is the target of 100’s of European sponsored UN resolutions while Arafat is promoted as a hero throughout Europe with a Noble peace prize to his name no less and billions of embezzled Euros in his personal bank from European tax payers.

Nothing would make me happier than for Europe to wake-up to the enemy within.

I have often wondered how big of a bomb from the Islamo-fascists it would take to wake you guys up. Given the European's love affair with tyrants and Islam I never thought it would take the brutal murder of just one person though.

Hopefully this new attitude is start of something bigger.

[RichardP]

I was reading what you said, Steve… I agree and don’t argue your point, as it’s bang-on. However, I am thankful to see Holland open its eyes, for whatever reason, though, also hoping, they don’t close them too soon after, they’ve been awakened. Never an optimist, yet I do hope that the Dutch can and will, perhaps start a trend throughout Europe… possibly, with the likes of Ahava the message will get through. A long shot, no doubt, but at this moment, it may be a light at the end of the tunnel for some befuddled Euros.
Heh, heh, I don’t know if I can swallow my own words… I am much too sceptical.

[KettleWhistle]

Actually, the late chairman of the L.A. chapter of the JDL was plotting to blow up an L.A. area mosque. Somebody from within reported it to the FBI, and he got arrested before being able to do anything. I wonder how likely would it be that some American Muslims report on the terrorist activities of their fellows.


What’s the big deal? The US had over 3,000 people brutally murdered on 9-11 by the followers of the religion of peace. They didn’t even release a film that dared to expose the Islamic treatment of woman. Their crime was just showing up to work before 9 am.

How many mosques were burned in the US after 9-11? How many dual US citizens were deported after 9-11?

The Netherlands has one person brutally murdered and the European citizens are practically ready to start their own Jihad against the Muslims.

How many Jewish babies in Israel have met a similar cold blooded murder resting in their cribs as Theo van Gogh’s? Yet Israel is the target of 100’s of European sponsored UN resolutions while Arafat is promoted as a hero throughout Europe with a Noble peace prize to his name no less and billions of embezzled Euros in his personal bank from European tax payers.

Nothing would make me happier than for Europe to wake-up to the enemy within.

I have often wondered how big of a bomb from the Islamo-fascists it would take to wake you guys up. Given the European's love affair with tyrants and Islam I never thought it would take the brutal murder of just one person though.

Hopefully this new attitude is start of something bigger.

[RichardP]

Good post... probably very unlikely.

[golani]

The stupidity continues. A man who carried explosives with him meant for an attack, has been released because of lack of evidence. Are you freaking kiddin' me? That's Dutch business. But I do see a change. The people are fed up, so the authorities are forced to change.

Ahava,
I am delighted to see ordinary dutch citizens waking up to jihadi threats
I do hope your government will have the guts to completely stop inbound flow of muslim immigrants and start deportation of most radical elements
If Europe needs so desperately more youth to replace his ageing population,millions of Chinese, Indians, Filipinos,South american citizens(Ecuatorianos for example) would be happy to come...
Goie dag and shalom,
Golani

[andak01]

How many mosques were burned in the US after 9-11?

Well, I have to give credit where credit is due. First of all, in the Clinton administration, due to a spate of church burnings by people who BTW were NOT Muslims, hate crime laws and specifically ones involving burning a place of worship got stricter. It could be expected that security was stricter as well. In fact, whenever I go to Friday prayers there is a policeman stationed outside the mosque. Thank you. Although that was not able to prevent my mosque from being vandalized several months ago.

Secondly, thank you John Ashcroft for being tough on hate crimes, including anti-Muslim hate crimes. I'm not a fan of Ashcroft, but I give credit where credit is due. Even Ashcroft's efforts weren't able to prevent anti-Muslim hate crime from rising 1600% in the wake of 9/11. And they weren't able to bring back to life a couple of Sikhs, murdered for wearing turbans.


How many dual US citizens were deported after 9-11?

That is classified. Jose Padilla, a US citizen has been held for over two years without being charged or given due process. The government refuses to list who has been detained and not. Therefore it is impossible to know how many of them were US citizens.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution



The Netherlands has one person brutally murdered and the European citizens are practically ready to start their own Jihad against the Muslims.

First, all murders are brutal. Someone shot to death or stabbed by a Muslim doesn't die MORE than someone shot or stabbed by a non-Muslim.

Second, the Muslim community in the Netherlands has condemned the crime, as do I. They even commemorated Theo Van Gogh during Friday services.


How many Jewish babies in Israel have met a similar cold blooded murder resting in their cribs as Theo van Gogh’s?

I suppose you have a statistic on this far reaching analogy. That Van Gogh, who observed his legal right to free speech by producing a hate film is equal to a baby in a crib, seems kind of strange. That the Netherlands is any way analogous to Israel is even stranger.


Yet Israel is the target of 100’s of European sponsored UN resolutions while Arafat is promoted as a hero throughout Europe with a Noble peace prize to his name no less and billions of embezzled Euros in his personal bank from European tax payers.

At this point you are simply babbling. Theo = innocent babies = Israel, his murderer = Arafat = Palestine.


Nothing would make me happier than for Europe to wake-up to the enemy within.

And do what? Start killing people in the streets? Europe is doing fine without your input.

[goliath]

You have ,now ,present and teaching (muslim history ) in an university in New Jersey ,a man ,his name is :
Tarek RAMADAN.

He hold a Swiss passeport , and he is the nephew of the man ,who create :

"The muslim brotherhoods" they share the hitler's ideology ,and maybe more.
In France he is considered as a very dangerous extremist , and as a brillant intellectual ,he can spread his ideology , with blind corner , and the American authority blessing. what a G..send.!!

[KettleWhistle]

I suppose you have a statistic on this far reaching analogy. That Van Gogh, who observed his legal right to free speech by producing a hate film is equal to a baby in a crib, seems kind of strange. That the Netherlands is any way analogous to Israel is even stranger.

At this point you are simply babbling. Theo = innocent babies = Israel, his murderer = Arafat = Palestine.
As our governator says, don't bullsheet us. Steve made an excellent point about the European hypocrisy, and I think you just exposed yours.

[MGB8]

That's the thing with Andak....any HONESTY in talking about the APPLICATION of Islam in many places he considers HATE.

That's the new Orwellian tactic.

Guess what - in SA women are subjugated and treated like cr@p....and of all the muslim nations - more nations are like SA than are like, say, Morrocco or Turkey. And the latter two are headed in the wrong direction.

Please....

Islam has been perverted by literalists and fundamentalists and as it is practiced in much of the world is an abomination if you believe in things like natural rights, equality of the sexes, etc.

[Mediocrates]

All of that is neither here nor there. The film was, a representation of Van Gogh and his Islamic partners view of how women or some women are treated in Islam. Free speech is what it is and it is not the freedom to be free from being offended. I saw the first 11 minutes of it and it's interesting. Is it offensive? I have no way of knowing. Maybe to some, and not to people like Irshad Manji.

But keep in mind that no one except the target of a hate crime gets to call it that. If muslims or Jews or gays or the blind say they are the victims of hate crimes, you pretty much have to take them at their word and accept that. You may disagree you may even say there is no meaningful thing as a hate crime. That's fine, you get to say that. But you, like Jim Crow, don't get to tell the people on the back of the bus why they should feel good about being there; you can't really reserve the right to yourself to determine what hate crimes are for other people any more than our fine french friends here want to tell you what antisemitism really is.

[KettleWhistle]

But keep in mind that no one except the target of a hate crime gets to call it that. If muslims or Jews or gays or the blind say they are the victims of hate crimes, you pretty much have to take them at their word and accept that. You may disagree you may even say there is no meaningful thing as a hate crime. That's fine, you get to say that. But you, like Jim Crow, don't get to tell the people on the back of the bus why they should feel good about being there; you can't really reserve the right to yourself to determine what hate crimes are for other people any more than our fine french friends here want to tell you what antisemitism really is.Hatred is not a hate crime, though. There is a difference between hatred and criticism. Van Gogh may have critisized Islam, but that's neither hatred nor a crime.

[MGB8]

I disagree, Medio.

Talking about the actual treatment of women in Islamic societies is not hatred. That's like talking about the treatment of women in ultra-orthodox society - if its an accurate reflection, then its not hate.

Its like showing those killed or the bloody car in a targetted killing by Israel. That, in of itself, is not hate.

Nor is showing a beheading and the video's they produce.

It simply is not hate.

The targets of the commentary DO NOT define what a hate crime is.

SOCIETY defines it, just like in the US, black people do not define a federal hate crime - the Government, representing ALL OF THE PEOPLE, does.

[Canajew]

First, all murders are brutal. Someone shot to death or stabbed by a Muslim doesn't die MORE than someone shot or stabbed by a non-Muslim.

this is sheer cr@p. The guy was shot several times, had his throat slit as he was lying on the ground, and then had a note full of Islamic totalitarian death threats stabbed into his chest.

This is qualitatively different than dropping bombs from an airplane or even shooting somebody. that sort of abject depravity needs to be recongized for exactly what it is, and to say it is no better or worse than anything else is beyond deceitful.

The killers killed BECUASE they were Muslim, and their victom was killed BECAUSE he criticized their religion, and it was in full public view, and it was in one of the most sadistic and TERRROIZING ways possible.

Your apologetics are disgusting.

[andak01]

That's the thing with Andak....any HONESTY in talking about the APPLICATION of Islam in many places he considers HATE.

OK. Well, take the portions of the Torah that don't give equality to a woman, paint them on a woman's naked body and show it on TV! Give me a break.


That's the new Orwellian tactic.

The Orwellian tactic is trying to get me to apologize for a crime that I didn't and wouldn't commit carried out in a foreign country by a man who's viewpoint I find unacceptable.


Islam has been perverted by literalists and fundamentalists and as it is practiced in much of the world is an abomination if you believe in things like natural rights, equality of the sexes, etc.

If they took things literally, a lot of things would change. No burkahs. Women could drive, hold jobs, get a college education, work, write books, teach Islam and any other subject save witchcraft. The problem is not literalism, its misinterpretation and limited reading.

[andak01]

You have ,now ,present and teaching (muslim history ) in an university in New Jersey ,a man ,his name is :
Tarek RAMADAN.

He hold a Swiss passeport , and he is the nephew of the man ,who create :

"The muslim brotherhoods" they share the hitler's ideology ,and maybe more.

So what. George Bush's son speaks at the Democratic convention. People from the same family can have very different politics. Tarek Ramadan has written a book, "Western Muslims and the Future of Islam".

Ramadan's goal is to create an independent Western Islam, anchored not in the traditions of Islamic countries but in the cultural reality of the West. He begins by offering a fresh reading of Islamic sources, interpreting them for a Western context and demonstrating how a new understanding of universal Islamic principles can open the door to integration into Western societies. He then shows how these principles can be put to practical use. Ramadan contends that Muslims can-indeed must-be faithful to their principles while participating fully in the civic life of Western secular societies. Grounded in scholarship and bold in its aims, Western Muslims and the Future of Islam offers a striking vision of a new Muslim Identity, one which rejects once and for all the idea that Islam must be defined in opposition to the West.


http://www.kvisionbooks.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=434

[Leon]

OK. Well, take the portions of the Torah that don't give equality to a woman, paint them on a woman's naked body and show it on TV! Give me a break.

I can understand your offence. you are correct I and many other Jews will be offened if somone did that with the Torah.

However, I can guarentee you that no religious Jews would place a fatwa on the person's head. There have been many secular Jews who have perverted the Jewish faith and made fun of its teachings - in Judiasim we have many of our own Salman Rushdie's - yet no one places a fatwa on their heads.

Not long ago Maddona was moddelling and posing with Teffilin. In Judiaism Teffelin is one of the most Holiest items - they are boxes containing holy torah protions. These boxes are suppossed to be bound to the heart and the head (i.e.mind) after G-d's commnadment to Moses You shall bind my commandments to your heart and to your mind. Only Jewish men are permitted to wear teffilin and only during morning prayers.

Yet here we have Maddonna - a non Jewish women who is wearing it! And to rub it in - she is half naked and moddeling with it - posing for a magazine!!

Yet, no religious Jews are going to kill her and she hasnt recieved any death threats.

[Leon]

What’s the big deal? The US had over 3,000 people brutally murdered on 9-11 by the followers of the religion of peace. They didn’t even release a film that dared to expose the Islamic treatment of woman. Their crime was just showing up to work before 9 am.

How many mosques were burned in the US after 9-11? How many dual US citizens were deported after 9-11?

The Netherlands has one person brutally murdered and the European citizens are practically ready to start their own Jihad against the Muslims.

How many Jewish babies in Israel have met a similar cold blooded murder resting in their cribs as Theo van Gogh’s? Yet Israel is the target of 100’s of European sponsored UN resolutions while Arafat is promoted as a hero throughout Europe with a Noble peace prize to his name no less and billions of embezzled Euros in his personal bank from European tax payers.

Nothing would make me happier than for Europe to wake-up to the enemy within.

I have often wondered how big of a bomb from the Islamo-fascists it would take to wake you guys up. Given the European's love affair with tyrants and Islam I never thought it would take the brutal murder of just one person though.

Hopefully this new attitude is start of something bigger.

u r 100%. The Europeans get slapped in the face with their own hypocrisy.

When it comes to reacting to Islamist radicals the Europeans react harsher than the Israelis and Americans. France with the Hijab ban and the expelling of Muslims girls from school is an excellent example since there have been no terrorist attacks in France. They overreact more than the Israelis and Americans yet no civilians have been murdered in cold blood in France.

[andak01]

However, I can guarentee you that no religious Jews would place a fatwa on the person's head. There have been many secular Jews who have perverted the Jewish faith and made fun of its teachings - in Judiasim we have many of our own Salman Rushdie's - yet no one places a fatwa on their heads.

Understand that, in the case of Rushdie, it was the Ayatollah Komeini, not the Muslim community as a whole. Yes, the Ayatollah had followers, but he by no means represented all Muslims. The case of Theo Van Gogh, no fatwa was issued.


Yet here we have Maddonna - a non Jewish women who is wearing it! And to rub it in - she is half naked and moddeling with it - posing for a magazine!!

Yet, no religious Jews are going to kill her and she hasnt recieved any death threats.

Well, she did get Palestinian death threats. I'm with her, I doubt it was because of her conversion to Kaballah! :rolleyes:

http://entertainment.iafrica.com/news/324863.htm

I am all for preventing any kind of violent acts by extremists whenever possible. At the same time, those of us who love God need to speak up when someone blasphemes. And I don't mean saying "You can't say that." But it is at least fair to say: "I find that offensive." Let it be known that those who worship, be it God, Buddha or Shiva will not be subverted by those who do not. We don't want to impose our ways, but we shouldn't tacitly accept having Godless ways imposed upon us.

[Leon]

At the same time, those of us who love God need to speak up when someone blasphemes. And I don't mean saying "You can't say that." But it is at least fair to say: "I find that offensive." Let it be known that those who worship, be it God, Buddha or Shiva will not be subverted by those who do not. We don't want to impose our ways, but we shouldn't tacitly accept having Godless ways imposed upon us.

You are appsolutley correct. Like I said Muslims have a right to be offended. If the film maker was criticising Islam by putting Holy writings of the Koran on a naked woman, he did it in poor taste (an under statement).

But G-d fearing people and true believers would/should know that anyone who does these things will recieve the worse type of Divine punishment and there is no need to take the law into your own hands. I certainly wouldnt want to be in Maddona's shoes.

[Canajew]

OK. Well, take the portions of the Torah that don't give equality to a woman, paint them on a woman's naked body and show it on TV! Give me a break.



The Orwellian tactic is trying to get me to apologize for a crime that I didn't and wouldn't commit carried out in a foreign country by a man who's viewpoint I find unacceptable.



If they took things literally, a lot of things would change. No burkahs. Women could drive, hold jobs, get a college education, work, write books, teach Islam and any other subject save witchcraft. The problem is not literalism, its misinterpretation and limited reading.
you fundamentally miss the point (again). Fact is, this film was made about Islam and Islam in particular BECAUSE it is sytemically used for the oppression and abuse of women. This film was not made about Judaim because it would not be relevant to judaism. But it is directly relevant to the majority of muslims in the majority of muslim lands. the koran has been ujsed to justify abusing others for far too long. This film was the effort of one of those abused women to speak out and use imagry and artistic expression to shock the world", both the west and the islamic world, into recognizing this evil in Islam. And the islamofascists brutally murdered the film maker in an act of savage terrrorism DESIGNED to dull further speech in the future, so that Islma can continue to be abusive in the future.

Why don't you get this?

[andak01]

If you think that Judaism advocates modern feminism, you are wrong. Secondly, you can talk about abuse without being offensive. Women's shelters, education for women, equal pay and jobs, these are issues that Muslims can endorse without having to forfet the Sunna. But if your purpose is simply to stir up hatred against Islam and Muslims, it's not likely to be well received. And if you have a cultural arrogance that you simply don't care, that's your problem. There is much improvement needed in Arab society, but rape, wife abuse, exploitation of women- these are worldwide social ills. You can't point to women wearing burkhas in Afghanistan and ignore women being tortured and set on fire on the border of Mexico. You can't care about honor killings and not care about children killed for their sneakers and sunglasses in this country. You can't care about genital mutilation among Muslims and not care about it when African animists perform the same practice.

[goliath]

to determine what hate crimes are for other people any more than our fine french friends here want to tell you what antisemitism really is.

I just forgot a word to clarify the sense of my sentence ,I added it :
Here in France .....etc.(post in thread European MPs ...02:38AM.

[I] Here........etc was insufficient,or a bit confusing , for the understanding of this sentence ,

I have never felt something similar concerning the Forum.

[Ahava]

Theo van Gogh is not just an islamophobe. He also made another movie, named "Cool", with Moroccan youths, to show real life. Furthermore, I think its kind of irrelevant. I didn't like the guy to be honest, but this guy is killed because of his opinion and now mosques are set to fire aswell as >Islamic schools and granates have been thrown at the police when they tried to arrest some terrorists, and now they have arrested some terrorists who wanted to kill Ayaan Hirsi Ali (the courageous ex-muslim woman who made the film with van Gogh) and another politician who made negative comments about Islam, Mr Wilders. War zone.

[Ahava]

Never an optimist, yet I do hope that the Dutch can and will, perhaps start a trend throughout Europe… possibly, with the likes of Ahava the message will get through.

I'll do my best. Though, I might as well just leave Holland behind. I'm going to Israel for at least 5 months and this may be a good reason to stay there.
Edit: though I can't leave my friends and family behind, can I?

[andak01]

Welcome back Ahava.

[RichardP]

Great Ahava, I am so pleased for you, it sounds as if you are in need of a break. Not to mention, I am oranje with envy!!

Please stay in touch with us whilst you are in Israel; and more so, enjoy Israel to the fullest, take care and stay safe. ;)

[Mediocrates]

I just forgot a word to clarify the sense of my sentence ,I added it :
Here in France .....etc.(post in thread European MPs ...02:38AM.

[I] Here........etc was insufficient,or a bit confusing , for the understanding of this sentence ,

I have never felt something similar concerning the Forum.

You're not who I mean, sorry. I will be more careful in the future.

[Emunah]

So I'm confused about the theo van gogh thing. First, these radical muslims go and kill him for making first a movie about Kurds then a movie about women's rights under strict Islam like that which has taken over in Somalia. Then all of the sudden, they are arresting supposed Kurdish militants? I wonder if they were just blaming the victims here? Let me know what you hear about it. I know there are Kurdish militants, but I don't know if they are the root problem here you know?

[goliath]

[QUOTE=andak01]So what. George Bush's son speaks at the Democratic convention. People from the same family can have very different politics. Tarek Ramadan has written a book, "Western Muslims and the Future of Islam".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have read the book which you quote ,but it did not convince me , concerning the sincerity of the author.

On the other hand when a question is put to him , and this front of a live camera in the Senat in Paris :

And the film is in the archives ,If we need it we can obtain it.!

Question: Are you against the stoning of the women.?

T.R. answ.: I'mnot the representative of all the islamic authorities,therefore ,I cannot answer for them..

T.ramadan evaded that question , he never wanted to annswer ,the same day at several occasions, and it was the k point ,in order to demonstrate , if he is able and want really to make evoluate fundamental bases of Islam ,but he is clearly under a religious authority ,and he respects and apply the fundamental rules and principles.

Then as regards a western Islam ,of its "creation" it will be necessary to wait an hope an indefiniitely amount of years.and you know that.

Concerning Thora ,it is true that certain texts exist ,concerning the behaviour of the women and men ,texts which are moreover applied and followed ,that by Hassidiques or the Orthodoxes Jews,who are not satisfied if they notice that a part of us don't follow the texts as strictly recommanded.

But they do not threten ,or kill you for it.

The problem seems very complex,but the cause is simple :

The acceleration of the communications, medias,transport, the emigration and immigration made,that civilizatons ,confront with poor countries ,except the wealthy elite ,who steering in agreement with the religious authorities .
Other nationals ,do not come in our countries with such a motiivation,but first of all to improve their life conditions.
The differences of culture and religion are so enormous ,that the religious authorities of the not materially dominant ,explain to these,that they can owe ,in good Muslims ,to change nothing in their behavior,and we end in a latent conflict,which can easily be transformed into a direct conflict :

And if you wants to clarify this Sourat :

When the Muslims are majoritary in a country ,they have to steer that country.
this Sourat doesn't presents possibilities of several interpretations,it's clear and net.

[Ahava]

Welcome back Ahava.

Back from what? :o

[Ahava]

Great Ahava, I am so pleased for you, it sounds as if you are in need of a break. Not to mention, I am oranje with envy!!

Please stay in touch with us whilst you are in Israel; and more so, enjoy Israel to the fullest, take care and stay safe. ;)

Thank you for your wishes Richard, I'll try to stay in touch, if they won't let me work too hard, that is. ;)

[Ahava]

So I'm confused about the theo van gogh thing. First, these radical muslims go and kill him for making first a movie about Kurds then a movie about women's rights under strict Islam like that which has taken over in Somalia. Then all of the sudden, they are arresting supposed Kurdish militants? I wonder if they were just blaming the victims here? Let me know what you hear about it. I know there are Kurdish militants, but I don't know if they are the root problem here you know?

I'm confused too, but there seems to be no link between the arrest of Kurdish militants and the fact that v gogh was killed.

[RichardP]

must admit, Ahava, I, too, am befuddled with the Kurds' arrests!

[Mediocrates]

"Major Strasser has been shot! Round up the usual suspects!"

- Captain Louis Renault

[Leon]

The Weekly standard via blogger Tim Blair -

http://www.timblair.org/


At this point, the Dutch seem more inclined to move from Live and Let Live to its opposite, and are calling for laws that make the Patriot Act look like Kumbayah. Strict laws against government surveillance over religious establishments, a centuries-old inheritance from the United Provinces' battle against Spanish occupation, appear set to go by the boards. On Friday, the Dutch parliament requested a new law that would forbid mosques to employ imams who had been educated elsewhere. One member of parliament was quoted in a wire report as saying: "It's better to have 10 possibly innocent people temporarily in jail than one with a bomb on the street."



Holland's Deadly Tolerance
From the November 22, 2004 issue: Another political assassination and its aftermath.
by Christopher Caldwell
11/22/2004, Volume 010, Issue 10
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THE AFTERNOON of Election Day in Washington, one of the Dutch journalists in town to cover the vote mentioned to me that there had been a spectacular killing in Amsterdam that morning, which would be international news as soon as the dust cleared from the Bush-Kerry contest. True enough. Most of the world now knows that a Muslim assailant intercepted the controversialist filmmaker Theo van Gogh as he rode his bike through Amsterdam, and shot him several times. As van Gogh pled for his life, the murderer slit his throat. He then used the corpse as a sort of human bulletin board, pinning a letter to the torso with a dagger.

What was curious was the journalist's explanation of why the ordinarily open and liberal Dutch government had not released the contents of that letter. He speculated that it contained radical Islamic pronouncements and further threats against politicians, and that the reaction of the public to it would be violent. The letter, published early this week, did indeed contain death threats against two members of parliament: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somalian-born immigrant who has repudiated Islam and blames it for violence against women; and Geert Wilders, a longtime liberal politician who has turned to anti-Muslim demagoguery and heads an embryonic populist movement. Both are now in hiding.

Both rose to prominence in the wake of the killing in 2002 of Pim Fortuyn, the charismatic gay politician who won a massive overnight following by warning that high Muslim immigration was overburdening the
country's institutions and threatening its ethos of easy come, easy go. It took him only weeks to turn his new party into the country's second largest, but he was soon shot dead by a deranged environmentalist. It was the first political killing in Holland since the sixteenth century.

Van Gogh, on the other hand, had been a loud--one could even say obnoxious--critic of Islam. He had referred to Muslims as "goatf--ers" and, with Hirsi Ali, had made a 10-minute agitprop film that mixed pornography, violence, and Muslim prayer. But even if the van Gogh killing was different in its particulars, it looked to certain Dutch observers like a second salvo in a revolution. The past 10 days have seen almost continuous protest. At least a dozen mosques and Muslim schools were set on fire. The subsequent firebombing of several churches fanned the fury. There were raids across the country on Moroccan, Kurdish, and Pakistani terrorist cells. At one pre-dawn arrest of two suspects in the Hague, police were met with a grenade attack, and a siege that lasted 15 hours, while the cornered suspects hollered, "We will behead you!" There were dozens of arrests. Most of the suspects were Arab immigrants. But, quite disturbingly, some, like Mohammed Bouyeri, van Gogh's alleged killer, were Dutch-born Dutch citizens. Two of those arrested--known only as Jason W. and Jermaine W.--were Dutch-American converts to Islam.

After decades of trying to fight social problems with ever more tolerance, the Dutch are at a loss before terrorism. Queen Beatrix limited her involvement to visiting immigrant kids at a Moroccan "youth center." This was hardly what public opinion was clamoring for. At this point, the Dutch seem more inclined to move from Live and Let Live to its opposite, and are calling for laws that make the Patriot Act look like Kumbayah. Strict laws against government surveillance over religious establishments, a centuries-old inheritance from the United Provinces' battle against Spanish occupation, appear set to go by the boards. On Friday, the Dutch parliament requested a new law that would forbid mosques to employ imams who had been educated elsewhere. One member of parliament was quoted in a wire report as saying: "It's better to have 10 possibly innocent people temporarily in jail than one with a bomb on the street."

[segovilla]

I thind that, in the long run and if islamic terrorist attacs to the west continue and get bigger and bigger, destroying whole west cities, and so on, the solution might be that the United Nations would declare islam not a religion, but a Terrorist Manifesto and a nazi ideologie, so that the islamic cult could be forbbiden in western countries, and the actual freedom of religion kept intact. Of course this concerns a large billion people on the planet, and as most of them seem not to be potential terrorist, what I am suggesting for the future might seem injust. The muslim could react, if they had a clergy that could call for a kind of Concilium, stating clearly that those so called divine commands on holy war written 1.400 years ago might have beed good for the profets times, but not nowadays. Liberty of religion is permitting those terrorists to invade the west, with the coffessed aim of killing all of us who do not embrace islam.

[Leon]

I thind that, in the long run and if islamic terrorist attacs to the west continue and get bigger and bigger, destroying whole west cities, and so on, the solution might be that the United Nations would declare islam not a religion, but a Terrorist Manifesto and a nazi ideologie, so that the islamic cult could be forbbiden in western countries, and the actual freedom of religion kept intact. Of course this concerns a large billion people on the planet, and as most of them seem not to be potential terrorist, what I am suggesting for the future might seem injust. The muslim could react, if they had a clergy that could call for a kind of Concilium, stating clearly that those so called divine commands on holy war written 1.400 years ago might have beed good for the profets times, but not nowadays. Liberty of religion is permitting those terrorists to invade the west, with the coffessed aim of killing all of us who do not embrace islam.

With the madrid bombing not to mention how Spain was once conqueerd by Islamist expansionists which subsequenly led to Bin Laden's claim to 'Spainish Muslim Andalucia' (as land only belonging to Muslims), your country Spain is one of the few countries which has experienced the full force of Islamic terror first hand. Taken this into context, your proposal is reasonable.

[Mediocrates]

The problem is any kind of fundamentalist literalism be it Islam or Marx or Nasser or Christ. The most dangerous thing in the world is absolute certainty.

[Canajew]

The problem is any kind of fundamentalist literalism be it Islam or Marx or Nasser or Christ. The most dangerous thing in the world is absolute certainty.
are you absolutely certain about that? :D

[MGB8]

Absolutely??? :-)

Good for the Dutch.

[golani]

I thind that, in the long run and if islamic terrorist attacs to the west continue and get bigger and bigger, destroying whole west cities, and so on, the solution might be that the United Nations would declare islam not a religion, but a Terrorist Manifesto and a nazi ideologie, so that the islamic cult could be forbbiden in western countries, and the actual freedom of religion kept intact. Of course this concerns a large billion people on the planet, and as most of them seem not to be potential terrorist, what I am suggesting for the future might seem injust. The muslim could react, if they had a clergy that could call for a kind of Concilium, stating clearly that those so called divine commands on holy war written 1.400 years ago might have beed good for the profets times, but not nowadays. Liberty of religion is permitting those terrorists to invade the west, with the coffessed aim of killing all of us who do not embrace islam.

NOT BAD FOR A FIRST POST ;)

Soy muy contente de acoger a un ciudadano(a) de espana
Bienvenudo(a),te deseo lo mejor,
Golani

[KettleWhistle]

At this point, the Dutch seem more inclined to move from Live and Let Live to its opposite
Seems like they want to trade one extereme position for the oposite. I'm very liberal/libertarian on social issues, and with the left becoming increasingly anti-Semitic, anti-American, and often pro-terrorist, the choice here is between people with whom you agree on the societal policies, but disagree on almost everything else, and people with whom you disagree on the societal issues, but agree with their stances on most of the other issues. It would be interesting to see what would happen in a country like Netherlands. I really wonder if their leftists will continue to support the terrorists and bigots in their midst.

[Mediocrates]

Dunno - I think that after the first outrage wears off it's pretty much back to business as usual. I mean in a society like the Netherlands with hash and hookers and whatnot, wouldn't you tend to see more Islamic inspired attacks? If not then maybe it's more of a 'celebrity' murder/hate crime kind of thing. Their version of Gianni Versace.

[goliath]

Dunno - I think that after the first outrage wears off it's pretty much back to business as usual. I mean in a society like the Netherlands with hash and hookers and whatnot, wouldn't you tend to see more Islamic inspired attacks? If not then maybe it's more of a 'celebrity' murder/hate crime kind of thing. Their version of Gianni Versace.

In our beautyful country of France,the problem is a bit different(not concerning the hash and hookers , both are imported ,in front of the laxness of the leaders,and police authorities , the attemps ,or success of this type (mean murders ) .
But not killing celebrities ,are pratically so common and current facts (every night ) .

The police ,does not wish to book them anymore , to obtain better statistics concerning the crime.

Certain "citoyens" feel his attitude ,as a sort of blank signature ,granted to the agressors.

__________________________________________________ ______________

** In the mean time ,it's a real hard day night for the Palestinian ex futur Leaders , and they are hesitating and discussing , all the night, and decide about marchmoud Abash or Marouan Barbouti ( convict for life )

[KettleWhistle]

Dunno - I think that after the first outrage wears off it's pretty much back to business as usual. I mean in a society like the Netherlands with hash and hookers and whatnot, wouldn't you tend to see more Islamic inspired attacks? If not then maybe it's more of a 'celebrity' murder/hate crime kind of thing. Their version of Gianni Versace.
Yes, sure, and that's understandable. After all, it's not like we are in the post-9/11 mood. But I tend to think that this is just the beginning. I'll give this incident another three weeks to air out, but from what I heard so far the Dutch haven't really arrested anybody, except for some Kurds who didn't have anything to do with that. So after a few more calls for peace in Dutch, followed by calls for war on the kaffirs in Arabic, there surely will be more such attacks.

[Leon]

Seems like they want to trade one extereme position for the oposite. I'm very liberal/libertarian on social issues, and with the left becoming increasingly anti-Semitic, anti-American, and often pro-terrorist, the choice here is between people with whom you agree on the societal policies, but disagree on almost everything else, and people with whom you disagree on the societal issues, but agree with their stances on most of the other issues. It would be interesting to see what would happen in a country like Netherlands. I really wonder if their leftists will continue to support the terrorists and bigots in their midst.

Kettlewhistle, I have the same dilemma too. Before september 11, before the Bali bombing, before the intifada I supported the Greens party in Australia - they are the most extreme left-wing party that were elected to the Australian parliament and had policies that were all extremley anti-establishment (as you can imagine).

Its interesting how many people changed their political views and their "tolerance" stance almost overnight. The Dutch nation is just a shinning example.

[segovilla]

Hello again.
I posted yesterday, in a very excited words, a comment on islamic terrorism, and today, reading it again and having had a deep look at the general calm of the rest of the postings, I have noticed that my post was somehow written in an over excited manner, and I want today to apologize for it. We should all seek peace in the world, and posts like mine of yesterday might not help in that sense, putting some more dry wood on the fire, as we say in spanish.

[RichardP]

No need to apologize, Segovilla, you made your point well. Trust me; we aren't always unexcitable on the forum. Welcome!

[Leon]

Hello again.
I posted yesterday, in a very excited words, a comment on islamic terrorism, and today, reading it again and having had a deep look at the general calm of the rest of the postings, I have noticed that my post was somehow written in an over excited manner, and I want today to apologize for it. We should all seek peace in the world, and posts like mine of yesterday might not help in that sense, putting some more dry wood on the fire, as we say in spanish.

No need to apologise, you were 100% right

If mainstream Muslim Imams preach hatred in mainstream muslim mosques in western countries and a large number of muslims ascribe to such views then this should be worrying and all governments should consider ways of combating this type of hatred and incitment to terror

[goliath]

No need to apologise, you were 100% right

If mainstream Muslim Imams preach hatred in mainstream muslim mosques in western countries and a large number of muslims ascribe to such views then this should be worrying and all governments should consider ways of combating this type of hatred and incitment to terror


The actual Imam of the Great Mosque in Paris ,every friday evening , he clearly preach hatred , against the "rumi" ,rumi , means unfaithful ,which is a serious fault for an extremist ,integrist which fortunately are a very few, the majority of these people are good persons ,but the French state didn't wanted put enough effort in order to not left these persons in ghetto communauty and it's not a good point to make things in progress ; and when is invited in TV ,the great Mufti , explain with extrordinary calm and conviction ,all the contrary, and it's enough , the government is satisfy by that.( first they are voters ,and the tension of dissatisfaction is very high.)

The actual government ,don't dare , and don't want ,to provoke this people ,I do thinks ,that Mr,Zapatero ,has no intention to not copy the French attitude , Spain is also a sanctuary for extremist Muslims , some are staying ,and is also a crossing place, not easy to block this way.

Many people are talking about possible solutions ,but the difficult point is to apply them.
If you do so ,you get other bomb attacks ,assassinations or worse ,so it's not easy .

In France when government interfered in Algerian policy (FIS ,election) in 1994 ,what do we've got , attemps which made more than 250 wounded and 25 dead peoples ,the worse was in subway ,Saint Michel station,in Paris.

[Leon]

The actual Imam of the Great Mosque in Paris ,every friday evening , he clearly preach hatred , against the "rumi" ,rumi , means unfaithful ,which is a serious fault for an extremist ,integrist which fortunately are a very few, the majority of these people are good persons ,but the French state didn't wanted put enough effort in order to not left these persons in ghetto communauty and it's not a good point to make things in progress ; and when is invited in TV ,the great Mufti , explain with extrordinary calm and conviction ,all the contrary, and it's enough , the government is satisfy by that.( first they are voters ,and the tension of dissatisfaction is very high.)

The actual government ,don't dare , and don't want ,to provoke this people ,I do thinks ,that Mr,Zapatero ,has no intention to not copy the French attitude , Spain is also a sanctuary for extremist Muslims , some are staying ,and is also a crossing place, not easy to block this way.

Many people are talking about possible solutions ,but the difficult point is to apply them.
If you do so ,you get other bomb attacks ,assassinations or worse ,so it's not easy .

In France when government interfered in Algerian policy (FIS ,election) in 1994 ,what do we've got , attemps which made more than 250 wounded and 25 dead peoples ,the worse was in subway ,Saint Michel station,in Paris.


The Mufti of Australia who is the leader of the Australian Islamic community has a record of preaching hate against Jews and openly praise homicide bombers. He even visited Hezbollah leaders who were his hosts in Lebanon recently and where he praised their so called martydom operations.


If a leader of an entire community does such a thing it clearly means that such views are mainstream among muslims and not just confined to extremist elements.

I heard there was a recent case in Canda not to mention other incidents spanning Europe and North America

[Iranian_dude]

Hello all,

I am an Iranian, raised and born in Iran. However I got a postdoctoral grant from MIT so I came to US this September (I am in Boston now, apparently home to the famous Red Sox team) . I have been reading your posts since September, but I was afraid to sign up for this forum. Because I have heard that there is a new law here called the “Patriotic Act” that allows the government to have access to the archives of the websites you have visited and all. I don’t know how this law works and I certainly do not want to get deported. But then it occurred to me, that as long as I don’t talk about America I should be fine, right? (I would be grateful if someone would explain how this law works?)
Anyways, I find this forum very interesting and I think I can learn a lot here.

P.S: English is not my first language so I apologize if my posts are not coherent.
P.P.S: Sorry for interrupting this discussion, but for some reason I did not have permission to start a new thread.

[KSO]

Hello all,

I am an Iranian, raised and born in Iran. However I got a postdoctoral grant from MIT so I came to US this September (I am in Boston now, apparently home to the famous Red Sox team) . I have been reading your posts since September, but I was afraid to sign up for this forum. Because I have heard that there is a new law here called the “Patriotic Act” that allows the government to have access to the archives of the websites you have visited and all. I don’t know how this law works and I certainly do not want to get deported. But then it occurred to me, that as long as I don’t talk about America I should be fine, right? (I would be grateful if someone would explain how this law works?)
Anyways, I find this forum very interesting and I think I can learn a lot here.

P.S: English is not my first language so I apologize if my posts are not coherent.
P.P.S: Sorry for interrupting this discussion, but for some reason I did not have permission to start a new thread.Welcome! And I don't think Patriot Act includes such websites, But maybe I'm wrong...

[goliath]

The Mufti of Australia who is the leader of the Australian Islamic community has a record of preaching hate against Jews and openly praise homicide bombers. He even visited Hezbollah leaders who were his hosts in Lebanon recently and where he praised their so called martydom operations.


If a leader of an entire community does such a thing it clearly means that such views are mainstream among muslims and not just confined to extremist elements.

I heard there was a recent case in Canda not to mention other incidents spanning Europe and North America


I try to make spend the idea that the terrorism coming from islamic fondamentalists ,is not a danger which confine itself only in Europe .
but I believe that the persons who are far geographically,prefer not to think about this problem.
I whish that they are not in the error ,because it is a political error of judgment.
For some persons ,the most informed ,it is moreover already an evidence
The solution concerning this problem is not simple.

[Mediocrates]

Welcome! And I don't think Patriot Act includes such websites, But maybe I'm wrong...

"In Soviet Union, websites watch YOU!"

[Canajew]

Hello all,

I am an Iranian, raised and born in Iran. However I got a postdoctoral grant from MIT so I came to US this September (I am in Boston now, apparently home to the famous Red Sox team) . I have been reading your posts since September, but I was afraid to sign up for this forum. Because I have heard that there is a new law here called the “Patriotic Act” that allows the government to have access to the archives of the websites you have visited and all. I don’t know how this law works and I certainly do not want to get deported. But then it occurred to me, that as long as I don’t talk about America I should be fine, right? (I would be grateful if someone would explain how this law works?)
Anyways, I find this forum very interesting and I think I can learn a lot here.

P.S: English is not my first language so I apologize if my posts are not coherent.
P.P.S: Sorry for interrupting this discussion, but for some reason I did not have permission to start a new thread.not sure exactly how the law works (I am Canadian), but the US is very different from Iran. firstly, there is no reason to believe that the government is watching any one individual, unless they are or hang around people suspected of terrorism or other crimes. Secondly, regardless of what you have to say about the US, I'm sure there are many many who say worse.

I think its probably a bad idea generally to openly support terrorism against Americans on American soil or advocate the overthrow of the US government and its replacement by an Islamist theocracy, but in reality I don't think this will actually get the US to pay attention to you.

First off, why don't you tell us what you think of Iran. I knew several Iranians in high school, all had come over to Canada with their families basically fleeing (though not for political purposes, more just to get on with life) and all were relatively hostile to the Iranian regime, got along well with Jews and others, and were solid additions to the Canadian multicultural mosaic.

I would be interested in hearign what you have to say about your own government, now that you are free to contibute here without them monitoring you.

[minusthejihad]

Yes, welcome Iranian Dude. I have many Persian friends as well up here in Detroit, and its always interesting meeting people from the lands we discuss.

[RichardP]

Yes, Welcome Iranian Dude, I, too, look forward to reading your posts. Like, Canajew, I am Canadian as well. I would be interested in hearing your views on your own government. By the way, good luck with your studies.

[KettleWhistle]

Hello all,

I am an Iranian, raised and born in Iran. However I got a postdoctoral grant from MIT so I came to US this September (I am in Boston now, apparently home to the famous Red Sox team) . I have been reading your posts since September, but I was afraid to sign up for this forum. Because I have heard that there is a new law here called the “Patriotic Act” that allows the government to have access to the archives of the websites you have visited and all. I don’t know how this law works and I certainly do not want to get deported. But then it occurred to me, that as long as I don’t talk about America I should be fine, right? (I would be grateful if someone would explain how this law works?)
Anyways, I find this forum very interesting and I think I can learn a lot here.

P.S: English is not my first language so I apologize if my posts are not coherent.
P.P.S: Sorry for interrupting this discussion, but for some reason I did not have permission to start a new thread.
Welcome Iranian dude,

It would be very interesting to get your perspectives. Regarding the Patriot Act, I don't believe that's something to worry much about. As I understand it, the law only allows government to conduct some surveilance activities without having a warrant. You can criticise the U.S. and our government's policies--that's your right under the First Amendment. As long as it is a fair criticism, I'd welcome it. After all, it's a debate forum, and we do it all the time ourselves.

[Ahava]

I got a postdoctoral grant from MIT

Smartie. ;)


Because I have heard that there is a new law here called the “Patriotic Act” that allows the government to have access to the archives of the websites you have visited and all. I don’t know how this law works and I certainly do not want to get deported.
This makes me very curious what your opinions are.

[Mediocrates]

I think the PATRIOT act is a miserable excuse for being lazy and overbearing. And so far it's managed to capture and prosecute exactly zero terrorists. Nearly every case furthered under the act has fallen apart under scruntiny. And every case that still semi-holds water could be prosecuted under existing statutes.

In an astonishing reversal of a hundred years of progress on the 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th ammendments we are looking at a government, with the assistance of the Supreme Court who no longer believes in lawyer client confidentiality, due process, speedy trial, habeus corpus, or reasonable punishment. We have essentially done away with the necessity to get search warrants and we have opened up the definition of the scope of warrants to include virtually anything known or unknown.

[Canajew]

I think the PATRIOT act is a miserable excuse for being lazy and overbearing. And so far it's managed to capture and prosecute exactly zero terrorists. Nearly every case furthered under the act has fallen apart under scruntiny. And every case that still semi-holds water could be prosecuted under existing statutes.

In an astonishing reversal of a hundred years of progress on the 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th ammendments we are looking at a government, with the assistance of the Supreme Court who no longer believes in lawyer client confidentiality, due process, speedy trial, habeus corpus, or reasonable punishment. We have essentially done away with the necessity to get search warrants and we have opened up the definition of the scope of warrants to include virtually anything known or unknown.
don't know much about the particulars of the Act, by my thinking anything that removes constraints from intelligence and law enforcement agencies pooling resources and ifnromation and evidence is a positive development. It may be overbearing in certain regards, I can't say. But I can say the artificial walls put up between enforcement agencies in the 70s made the prevention of terrorism far more difficult than it should have been.

[Mediocrates]

Those are procedural and organizational problems better addressed that way and not by legislation, I think. I'd much rather have an effective intelligence service than a lazy one that uses an erosion of civil rights as a tool.

[Canajew]

Those are procedural and organizational problems better addressed that way and not by legislation, I think. I'd much rather have an effective intelligence service than a lazy one that uses an erosion of civil rights as a tool.
I thought there were statutory restrictions on information sharing and the like before the Patriot Act was implemented and it removed these legal restrictions. Was I wrong?

[Mediocrates]

I thought there were statutory restrictions on information sharing and the like before the Patriot Act was implemented and it removed these legal restrictions. Was I wrong?

As I said those are procedural limits imposed by the charters that create those agencies. And as we can see now, the act has no bearing on the actual cooperation anyhow.

[Mediocrates]

Bruce Thornton on the PATRIOT act:

http://victorhanson.com/articles/thornton111104.html


Faily well balanced, from an historical perspective.

[rhodescholar]

If you think that Judaism advocates modern feminism, you are wrong. .

Frankly you are in ABSOLUTELY NO POSITION WHATSOEVER TO TALK about judaism.

The very existence of three schools of thought in judaism - reform, conservative and orthodox, is not even imaginable under islam as it is practices today. The reasons for the torah not being practiced EXACTLY as written - to subjugate women - is one of the strengths of judaism so completely lacking in islam as it is practiced today - flexibility and critical thought to challenge previous religious doctrine.

Islam exists today almost completely devoid of those willing to stand up and delegitimize the extremists, and has been in this position for centuries. This is one reason that the entire arab muslim world sees only the west bank arabs as victims of the jews, and that israel is a state terrorist slaughtering arabs.

Amazing how the concept of divergent and differing points of view exist in both judaism AND the state of israel politics - see labor and likud - while almost all muslims are in lock step holding the same precies view AGAINST the US and israel.

The fact of the matter is, is that until someone in islam says that they will not accept the death threats and stands up to the terrorists and extremists - including the so-called "scholars" leading iran today - islam will either destroy itself or be destroyed by the West.

[Mediocrates]

It's contextural. Orthodox Judaism has an uncomfortable relationship with a whole host of issues surrounding liberal modernity. Feminism, the kind of feminism we recognize in the modern west is only one such. Having said that there are some fairly liberal branches of Orthodox which work rather hard to ameliorate those problems. One is agunath - a condition where a married woman cannot obtain a Get or religious divorce from her husband. This leaves her in a pariah state in her own community. Many liberal Orthodox Rabbis are insisting that couples who marry write into the Ketubah or marriage contract a clause stipulating that the man will never hold up a Get or that if he does a Bet Din or Rabbinic court can override him.


But progress is slow.

[scattergood]

Mediocrates:

It's contextural. Orthodox Judaism has an uncomfortable relationship with a whole host of issues surrounding liberal modernity. Feminism, the kind of feminism we recognize in the modern west is only one such. Having said that there are some fairly liberal branches of Orthodox which work rather hard to ameliorate those problems. One is agunath - a condition where a married woman cannot obtain a Get or religious divorce from her husband. This leaves her in a pariah state in her own community. Many liberal Orthodox Rabbis are insisting that couples who marry write into the Ketubah or marriage contract a clause stipulating that the man will never hold up a Get or that if he does a Bet Din or Rabbinic court can override him.


But progress is slow.


andak01:

If you think that Judaism advocates modern feminism, you are wrong. .


So, some small % of the the 3-5% of Jews who are Orthodox act in ways that seem too restrictive to secular standards? The bigger issue is that if a woman wanted to not wear a schatel, or leave their legs unbared can leave the practice of Orthodoxy. Same goes for a man who doesn't want to pray 3x per day, wear a kippa, or anybody that doesn't want to keep Shabbat.

Would those people be looked down upon, shunned, and made to feel bad by those who are Orthodox, and their family. Yes I am sure they would. But there would be no death threat on them, there would be no stoning, nor any honor killings. And that's the point.

Is there 'sexism' and things in Orthodox Judiasm that you don't like, then fine, don't practice them. Jewish thought has evolved, been criticised, changed, dropped, added to, etc. all in response ot modernity. And you will find Jews who will dissasociate themselves fromt the Orthodox line of thought for this reason, in wide swaths and loudly. In Islam, for all your postings Andak01, there are far more 'orthodox' and 'restrictive' statements made by large, government organizations that overwhelm the small, but hopefully growing, more open minded Muslims.

[minusthejihad]

Personally, I don't want some Christian turned Muslim telling me about my religion, Judaism. Even if he knows more about it than me, I'd rather hear about it from a Jew, its a little more disarming.

[segovilla]

To occupy muslim countries that are supposed to protect islamic terrorism might me a good weapon or not, but I think that what the USA intelligence agencies should devellop, as the best weapon against islamic terror, would be to study the muslim's so called holy books, to find a solution that could fit the muslims of the world concerning the impossibility that islam seems to have to reform itself because muhammad could have said that allah was inspiring him the new religion and that the koran must be understood litterally in arabic and that it can never be changed or any kind of exegesis made that could suggest any polisemy or any kind of shade on the clear words and commands of allah, and that those commands are good and obligatory for any time, and then to find a way to transmit this to the muslim authorities and try to force, with diplomacy and subtility, that the islamic wise men of all the muslim world could call upon some kind of concilium or symposium in which could be setteld that, with the gratest respect on muhammad and allah himself... And here I stop because I have no authority to state what that muslim concilium could declare, but it would not be bad if they setteled something that would not reinforce the actual way islamic terrorists behave, trying in a maquiavelic way to set the big fire on the whole planet, as could happen if massive or nuclear attacks from the islamic terrorists would take place in huge western cities, and the subsequent US response, that could be terrible.
The US governement has to devellop this weapon agains islamic terror, that is a weapon that should be built with a great knowledge of islam and his history, their holy books, their past and present wise men that have commented those books, and to try to friendly try to made them react aganist their own terrorists, setting up a possibility for islam to willingly accept even if it only was the mere idea of progress.
I understand that what I suggest is a difficult if not impossible task, over all because the muslims could see it as if from the west we were trying to destroy the basis of their faith, putting into it the wester germs of reason, doubt, tolerance, flexibility, and so on.
But I still think it is a weapon that is worth trying to devellop and to use.

[KettleWhistle]

If you think that Judaism advocates modern feminism, you are wrong.
And that's not a problem. If somebody doesn't like it, they can just leave the community. Nor would an Orthodox community be offended because other people accept feminism, or dress immodestly, or like the popular culture.