View Full Version : Hope in Iran
Skogan
05-21-2002, 06:22 PM
As I'm sure you all know, there is a serious unrest in Iran. The calls for liberty and a secular government is strong. You may have seen the news reports where even their religious ruling class has stated that change must be made. (This, of course, is an attempt to appease the masses with the current regim, to muzzle their call for a new, secular government.)
This is a link to the Iranian student website. Lots of pictures and news concerning their effort. I highly encourage all to take a look at it, because it really shows a glimer of hope.
In the next post I am going to paste a copy of the "Letter to America" written may 12 of this year. It really shows the possablities that may exist there.
General website is here:
http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org/
Skogan
05-21-2002, 06:24 PM
A public letter to the American Nation
SMCCDI Political Committee
May 12, 2002
Dear America,
Sorrow of the tragic events of the Sept. 11, 2001, still heavily weighs over your hearts. Grief of such horrible event will never be forgotten in your history .
You remember how terrorism that knows no borders or boundaries when it casts its ominous shadow, sent thousands of innocent souls to death and doom.
For the first time you felt the true meaning of terror in your own dwellings as you came face to face with the Islamic fundamentalists acting as terrorists. Because of those terrorists, countless people of Islamic nations haven’t had a restful night of sleep for many years. Because of the same terrorists, countries such as Algeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, and Iran have been for long engulfed in the fire of violence.
Today in the Western world, you and the rest, who used to watch the violence perpetrated by these cannibals only in newscasts, are suddenly witnessing their barbaric violence at your own doorsteps and are asking yourselves, “ Who are these fundamentalists?”
To answer this question we must go to an ancient land that for twenty-three years has been suffering their evil rule. That country is the land of Cyrus the Great and Queen Esther, Iran. Iran, a country with deep wounds inflicted by violence and terror. Iran a country that is tired of war and destruction and constant torture of its youth …
For a very long time the clerical rulers of Iran have slaughtered freedom and justice in the name of religion. Yes, indeed, their understanding and philosophy of religion is Fascism: The very same understanding of Islam that allowed Bin Laden and Mullah Mohammed Omar of Afghanistan act as if they were gods. The identical philosophical belief is allowing their equal in Iran rule like Pharaoh on the throne of “Supreme Jurisprudence.” Khamenei, Bin Laden, and Mullah Mohammed Omar are thirsty for violence and cruelty. All three are truly woven of the same cloth. They have chosen ignorance and superstition over reason and logic; hate over love; pretension and deception over honesty and piety; oppression and injustice over justice and kindness; bondage and captivity over freedom and liberty; and finally death over life.
Their reactionary way of thinking in our modern times is indicative of their low life resembling a reptilian type which has been left over from the dark barbaric ages. As a nation, the high majority of Iranians are not terrorist—they are the victims of barbarism and terrorism of the fundamentalists. Thus, in our sympathy towards you in those dark hours of September 11, we Iranians deeply understood the pain you felt. We understood very well what happened to the defenseless victims. Just a day after that ominous day, wearing black in honest sympathy with you, we poured into the streets to raise our voice of mourning so that you may hear us and know that we do understand the depth of your lamentation. We mourned the loss of those victims as sincerely as if they were our own brethren and flesh and blood. We lit candles and raised hands of prayers to the Lord almighty and asked him to bless the souls of the departed ones, and bestow patience to the loved bereaved ones. And then we showed our hatred of those barbaric animals to the world when we shouted in unison “ DOWN WITH TALIBAN, IN KABUL AND TEHRAN!!”
How well our wise poet, Sa’di, wrote:
Humanity are all parts of one body,
As they all share the same origin in creation.
If one part begins to suffer and ache,
All the rest lose tranquility and comfort.
Dogmatic reactionaries of Tehran and Kabul are members of the same tribe. They all regard people as invalids needing guardianship. They regard women low and satanic. Human rights isn’t worth a penny for them. They don’t even value their own lives—let alone others! They train terrorists and hate humanity…
They are coolies of religious totalitarianism, unfaithfulness, ignorance, power mongering, and Lumpenism. Religion serves them only as a tool for acquisition of power and wealth. Their culture is to impose, to imitate (their leaders), to deceive, to beat and flog, to frown and be grim, and to brawl. These fundamentalists are too insignificant to be able to make any positive impression or cause a ripple in the ocean of humanity or capture any body’s heart. Their rage and animalistic anger is a testament to their ineptitude.
Now, how can we overcome this ignorance and darkness?
Obviously, Talibanism and Islamic fundamentalism are terrible schools of thought that threaten and seek to destroy the free world. The only way to combat this unfortunate cancer is to expand liberty and advance democracy. Fundamentalists thrive and grow in the shadow of their country’s rule of despotism and self-centrism. A breeze of reason and wisdom will surely blow away their unholy presence.
Afghanistan was not the cradle of the Taliban. Rather, it was the Western world’s lack of concern and neglect of Afghanistan which allowed the Mullah Omars and the Bin Ladens to emerge. If the war torn Afghanistan wasn’t left to fend for itself; if the defenders of human rights had not neglected the Taliban’s rebellion and insurrection; and if the US policy wasn’t backing down and smiles and flowers in answering the destruction of the ancient Buddha statues by the Talibans, America would have never witnessed the collapse of her World Trade Center towers.
But unfortunately we still observe today that in this world there are many who don’t care and the valuable lessons so clearly spelled out on September 11 haven’t been completely learned yet. And that, is the compromise and face turning by the world and not challenging the crimes being committed by the Iranian Talibans. There isn’t a day that we don’t witness breaking of the pens and incarceration of our writers and intellectuals in our country. Songs of freedom are choked in the throats and gallows are raised all the time. Our old beacons of knowledge and wisdom are being tortured in captivity and no one is voicing any objection! The so-called human rights entities today are praising Iran’s corrupt regime for its “observance” of human rights while they should be reprimanding and admonishing them. How strange!
But today we address you, the great nation of America. You know the taste of war against colonialism and you have paid dearly for your liberty.
America,
Today our people have chosen the way of liberty and democracy and need the help of you dear people.
Today Iranian freedom lovers have risen to wipe out the dictatorship of theocracy and the “Supreme Religious Leader.” Today the Iranians are reaching for your lending hands in freedom and equality and prosperity. Do you see their struggle in reaching justice and establishing reason?
We expect you to echo our cries for freedom to the world as loud as you can and pressure your government to help eliminate oppression and free our political prisoners by implementing appropriate diplomatic and political measures against the ruling regime.
We sincerely implore the American mass media to put an effort in utilizing their worldly tribunes to mobilize and focus public attention to our quest for liberty and keep alive the memory of our crusaders of freedom always and every where.
And in the end, as Iran is campaigning and striving to realize her rights and freedom, we ask the United States government not to ever sacrifice the truth for political expediency, and set observance of human rights as a pre-requisite for resumption of relations between our countries.
SMCCDI, bound by duty of guarding and helping to propel the civil movement of Iran, hereby sincerely shakes the helping hand of your great nation and awaits the sentimental assistance of your magnificent country.
Tehran, May 12, 2002
The "Student Movement Coordination Committee for Democracy in Iran" (SMCCDI
L@mplighterM
05-21-2002, 08:05 PM
The letter is most likely bogus, as a matter of fact anyone could write a letter like that. If it?s pro Iran propaganda it didn?t work on me.
Better luck next time!
Skogan
05-21-2002, 10:51 PM
It's very anti-Iranian government, pro-reform. It says the U.S. should continue to condem the government, alert the media to their abuses. They don't want to fix the government, they want to overthrow it. It is consistant with Independant news sources about whats going on in the region.
Your suspicion is understandable, but I think unjustified in this case. There is a significant movement in Iran to become a secular state. We should all support that.
Skogan
NewsGuy
05-22-2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Skogan
There is a significant movement in Iran to become a secular state. We should all support that.
Yes, that's true. A very large portion of the Iranian population opposes the oppressive and brutal Islamic regime.
I agree that the U.S. and Europe haven't done enough to support the grass-roots opposition in Iran.
takeo
05-22-2002, 07:58 PM
actually it is more extreme than the position of the Iranian youth, which supports president Khatami against Ayatollah Khamenei, they want better relations with the world, not worse.
By the way it is not just to compare the Afghan fundamentalism to iranian fundamentalism, Iran is a very liberal country compared to Taliban-Afghanistan, and both were die-hard ennemies, Iran supported the us-les coalition against the Taliban.
Skogan
05-22-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by takeo
actually it is more extreme than the position of the Iranian youth, which supports president Khatami against Ayatollah Khamenei, they want better relations with the world, not worse.
I think your position is consistant with the letter above. There is a split between those who think reform through Khatami should be given a chance, versus those who think that nothing but a replacing the current government with a secular one will be adequate. (Khatami threatens to quit often for this very reason. Khamenei and co. are blocking reform. You may have notice that now, Khamenei even said the level of discontent with the government is so great, that the country is on the fringe of being torn apart.) Both camps want better relations with the world, but want outside pressure to help create reform.
Either way, the secularist movement is alive in Iran.
I take your point about the comparison, but they were comparing them on the grounds that they were both fundelmentalist, and opposed secular values, which is true. Iran may be more liberal then the Taliban, (but then, who wasn't?) but that wasn't because of the fundementalist, it was because of Khatami and the reformist.
Skogan
christian
05-22-2002, 08:43 PM
Please, let's make no more enemies. If I had a choice between suffering under the ragheads and being bombed by the U.S. with the hope of getting rid of the mullahs, I would take the latter. People are dying in Iran by the hands of the Islamic regime everyday. It's an everyday killing spree against anyone threatening the regime.
I don't really think the U.S. will bomb Iran even though I kind of hoped they did. My point is that if we are to organize any Anti- this and that, it better be an anti-islamic regime effort. Anything else would be a waste of precious time. Besides, if we were to object to any potential action by the U.S. against Iranian regime out of cowardliness and fear, it would only benefit the cause of the mullahs. In many of the clashes against the regime's vigilantes and the Basijis, people cry out things like "I hope the U.S. drops bombs on your heads".
So to all you outside of Iran. Please don't be chickens just because you want your granny who who you haven't seen all your life and don't really care about to live to be 100 in Iran. Chances are she is malnurished and suffers from severe depression anyway.
Iran is falling apart people. DO SOMETHING!
We need DIRECT action against the mullahs. Both inside and outside the country. Forget about what the U.S. is thinking. Voice you opinions and let them know what they should be thinking if you don't like their policies. Other than that, Iran can only be set right (or wrong) by we, the poeple of Iran.
Kayvan from , Iran
I am surprise. Some iranian like US bomb. They hate their regime so much.
I went to Iran last year. AT the war in Afghastan, the taxi driver is asking me," when we will be next?". He wants US bomb, to get rid of the regime.
On the other hand, some people just hate US.
takeo
05-22-2002, 08:55 PM
Even khamenei was very much opposed to the Taliban, and even under Khomeini Iran was never as extremist as the taliban.
yes there are different opinions among iranians, yet in the last elections more than 80% of the people, among wich many women(yes, on the contrary to SA they can leave their house and VOTE) voted for supporters of khatami, it seems the president is still very popular. Also Iran doesn't really seem a poor and fundamentalist country, it is quite devellopped and there are house-parties, boys and girls meet in parcs, women are business-leaders, etc. It seems much more modern and Western than many Arab countries.
Most Iranians are still Islamic, i never met one single Iranian who would like to see his country bombed by the US... even those who hate the fundamentalists very much (most) still hate the US too for supporting the Shah (after all these years still hated).
Takeo, what is the statistical basis for your analysis that "most Iranians" still hate the US? How many, and which people have you spoken to?
I don't think anyone is bombing Iran anytime soon. It seems that Iranians are capable of their own revolutions. IMHO, however, it is certainly worthwhile to help the opposition as much as possible.
takeo
05-23-2002, 06:36 AM
I have been to Iran (Teheran, Isfahan, mashked, Kish and the caspian coast) two years ago and know Iranians here. Many Iranians speak english (second language) and like to talk about politics, most of them have an outspoken opinion.
Originally posted by takeo
I have been to Iran (Teheran, Isfahan, mashked, Kish and the caspian coast) two years ago and know Iranians here. Many Iranians speak english (second language) and like to talk about politics, most of them have an outspoken opinion.
I repeat the question: how many people have you questioned? What were the percentages for various responses? For that matter, what were the questions asked? What is the standard deviation? Who were these people: their profession, age, sex, religious affiliation, etc. If this data is not available, a sweeping statement such as the one you made regarding what "Iranians think" is meaningless.
It sounds like a great trip! From what I have seen of Iran, it looks beautiful! I have known some Iranians here. They were very, very nice, well-educated, smart, charming, and not at all unfriendly to the US. But, of course, the ones I have known live here - so I can't generalize from this experience.
takeo
05-23-2002, 04:55 PM
"I repeat the question: how many people have you questioned? What were the percentages for various responses? For that matter, what were the questions asked? What is the standard deviation? Who were these people: their profession, age, sex, religious affiliation, etc. If this data is not available, a sweeping statement such as the one you made regarding what "Iranians think" is meaningless. "
Well, of course i didn't make any statistics or polls, but i've talked to quite a few Iranians of all ages and sexes (maybe around 100, however i prefere the female :p ) and most (don't know exact percentage) supported Khatami but also criticised the US (hating is maybe too strong(because of the Gulfwar and support for the shah), this would be more appropriate in iraq). I talked mostly to educated people, but on some occations as well to shop-keepers and peasants. i would say the big majority of all professions share that feeling and hate the fundamentalists. young and educated people and women are ALL in favor of khatami (the ones i spoke to) and hate the fundamentalists.
about the questions, i didn't ask any, they always started about this spontanously.
"It sounds like a great trip! From what I have seen of Iran, it looks beautiful! I have known some Iranians here. They were very, very nice, well-educated, smart, charming, and not at all unfriendly to the US. But, of course, the ones I have known live here - so I can't generalize from this experience."
Yes, you are right, Iran is one of the most beautiful countries i ever visited, very diverse (looks like georgia near the caspian sea while other parts are pure desert, some cities as isfahan are like in a fairy-tale) people are extremely friendly, honest and hospitable. In some regions people look like Russians (iranian azerbaidjan) while in other regions like Arabs, Turkmen, or gypsies. The food is delicious and the music very poetic. actually Iran is according to me a lot more pleasant than arab countries and living-standards and education are better.
There is also some religious tolerance in iran, Armenians live in all parts of Iran without much problems, they are the only ones who are allowed to drink alcohol. Some iranians still worship the old religion of zoroastrism.
they don't hate americans I think, but are sceptical over the american foreign policy. The image we have of iran in the west as similar to afghanistan and full of crazy people is really not correct.
if you ever have the chance you should visit it (however as an american national i don't know if it is possible).
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/sciolino-persian.html
L@mplighterM
05-23-2002, 07:16 PM
When he was in Iran (earlier post) he rubbed elbows with higher ups in government. When he was in Cuba he just peeked in on the forum but he never posted I guess Castro wouldn?t let him. When he was in Viet Nam ????.when he was in South America??????..this is a never ending story.
When he was in the WB he polished Arafat?s boots.
Skogan
05-23-2002, 07:51 PM
I saw a documentary on Iran about a year ago. It showed people snow boarding down a mountain. Wasn't what I expected.
Skogan
takeo
05-23-2002, 07:53 PM
LOL
higher ups of the government? in Cuba i posted in Guatemala not, there i had to miss your poetic contributions to this forum.
by the way i was never in South America.
i will not sleep one second less if you think i'm an Arab who has never been outside his refugee-camp and by the way you said as well that i was victot, and Belgium, and northlander, etc.
yes i'm all the same person and i have an incredible imagination, mr. who speaks fluently mandarin, latin, spanish, russian, danish, ... :rolleyes:
by the way skogan is one the newest of my creations.
Pushtak18
05-27-2002, 07:23 AM
For Iran, the issue speaks on itself.
yes; there is change in the attitude that is in Iran right now. I heard that due to reform in 1997, there was a huge cut backs in...births!! True thing. It was slated that Iran would have a population of 106 Million people by the year 2006. But Ayatollah Khatami has encouraged condoms. Infact, i saw a documentary on Iran and how they got Sheilds and Trojan companys to make condoms right in Iran and they even sell them in stores there! :)
Iran wants change. Especially the students. The hardliners see it and are not impress.....the only 2 solutions to this 2 decade old-conflict is this:
1) Ayatollah would be replaced by a full-harded hardliner....They will once again support attacks in Iraq (which they firmly do) and they will kill around 20,000 people in a second Revolution. How fun?
2) The young will take over, wipe out the hardliners and the reforms and go for an ultra-reform government that seperate Religon and democracy. Then all the islamic laws will be taken off and the new IRANIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM WOULD BE "MONEY" BY PINK FLOYD! :) hehehehehe
2) The young will take over, wipe out the hardliners and the reforms and go for an ultra-reform government that seperate Religon and democracy. Then all the islamic laws will be taken off and the new IRANIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM WOULD BE "MONEY" BY PINK FLOYD! hehehehehe
I can think of worse Anthems than Pink Floyd "Money" for a country to have... Think about it: historically, the higher the standard of living, the less political instability in a country.
Pushtak18
05-27-2002, 08:22 AM
elke,
thats true....but this is the 21st century...back when there was wealth but instability, Iran had no help. People always saw Iran as a beutiful monarchy of the Shas. But never saw the torture and despair people were going through. That is why Ayatollah Succeeded so well. For the average iranian, they wanted to be more helped.
I think if Ayatollah would never have done what he done, than:
A) the peace process would have been over in 1990....
B) Less caualties in the Lebanese Civil war
C) More open understandment of the west in the Islamic world.
Iran today, if was to change to reform would make a strong impression. Israel for example, when we had diplomatic relations with them, we fixed there agriculutre and made them 3 technological bridges :) This is a show of respect and unity :)
:)
Originally posted by Pushtak18
elke,
thats true....but this is the 21st century...back when there was wealth but instability, Iran had no help. People always saw Iran as a beutiful monarchy of the Shas. But never saw the torture and despair people were going through. That is why Ayatollah Succeeded so well. For the average iranian, they wanted to be more helped.
I think if Ayatollah would never have done what he done, than:
A) the peace process would have been over in 1990....
B) Less caualties in the Lebanese Civil war
C) More open understandment of the west in the Islamic world.
Iran today, if was to change to reform would make a strong impression. Israel for example, when we had diplomatic relations with them, we fixed there agriculutre and made them 3 technological bridges :) This is a show of respect and unity :)
:)
Agreed. It is the distribution of wealth, rather than the country's total wealth. Call me a dreamer, but I still believe that one day soon Iran is going to become Persia again, and go back to their tradition of being the light of the Muslim world.
MichaelC
05-27-2002, 10:14 AM
originally posted by Take-0
__________________________________________________ ____________
LOL
higher ups of the government? in Cuba i posted in Guatemala not, there i had to miss your poetic contributions to this forum.
by the way i was never in South America.
i will not sleep one second less if you think i'm an Arab who has never been outside his refugee-camp and by the way you said as well that i was victot, and Belgium, and northlander, etc.
yes i'm all the same person and i have an incredible imagination, mr. who speaks fluently mandarin, latin, spanish, russian, danish, ...
by the way skogan is one the newest of my creations __________________________________________________ ____________
I don’t know about Victot (will have to refamiliarize myself with his offerings) but can easily believe that you post as belgium and northlander. I notice that in your list of fluency you did not include English, but then, those of us who read your ramblings are well aware of your shortcomings in this area.
As for claiming to post as Skogan, I am sure that many, like myself, were compelled to wipe down their monitor screens after reading that one. I spewed coffee right out of my nose in the contortive response that was elicited from me upon reading that claim.
Skogan has exhibited an unstinting brilliance, a most capable literacy, and a solid grasp of world events in every post. These are not attributes that anyone would ever attribute to your own contributions.
Do not be fooled by the legend “trial membership” beneath my name. I may not have posted until today, but I have monitored this site for some time, as is my wont in cyberspace, before intruding with my own comments.
I suggest that takeo is Mediocrates or L@mplighter in disguise ;)
Pushtak18
05-27-2002, 12:34 PM
elke,
your dream seems very surreal and true. I think that Iran wants change but there forces that make it impossible. Having the whole judiciary and parliment a hardline is very hard.
Iran is not like many other Middle Easter states. For one, they are not arab. They are indo-euroasians. Iran also got alot of natrual resources. Now you minus a regime and have a state that can produce alot of oil and is democratic. Now that i like.
Today, Iran is changing. Hopefully for the better. There is alot of things the government of Tehran is doing that i can't possibly imagine, such as fund terrorism, build weapons of mass destruction and let 4 million Iranians become drug addicts!!!
This is the tastse the hardliners need! :(
and i don't really like it!
Mediocrates
05-27-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Vic
I suggest that takeo is Mediocrates or L@mplighter in disguise ;)
:mad: I am my own troll :mad: now back the **** off
takeo
05-27-2002, 07:54 PM
actually Iran under the Shah-regime was not paradise nor a dream, never was. It may have been better for the West and Israel, but not for its civilians.
if so the Islamic revolution would have never happened.
Iran is indeed very different from Arab countries, but having indo-european ancestry (Pakistan for example, or Armenia) and natural wealth (saoudi Arabia) is certainly no garantee for democracy.
there is no such thing as ayatollah Khatami.
the Iranian regime may still be die-hard it is going in the good direction, hardliners get less power in parliament and the judiciary every year.
"I don’t know about Victot (will have to refamiliarize myself with his offerings) but can easily believe that you post as belgium and northlander. I notice that in your list of fluency you did not include English, but then, those of us who read your ramblings are well aware of your shortcomings in this area. "
Thanks, so because my shortcomings in this area are so shocking, i admit that my current frenglish would never get me a Nobel-price for literature (unless translated of course :p ), I might propose that we will continue this discussion in French, this couldn't possibly be a problem for a person with such capable literacy as yours.
"Skogan has exhibited an unstinting brilliance, a most capable literacy, and a solid grasp of world events in every post. These are not attributes that anyone would ever attribute to your own contributions. "
you are right, skogan is more brilliant than i am, beyond comparison, but of course he's American and i'm just a lousy European. Also i don't have his rich experience
"Do not be fooled by the legend “trial membership” beneath my name. I may not have posted until today, but I have monitored this site for some time, as is my wont in cyberspace, before intruding with my own comments."
yes, and i have to admit, your first post was a display of all that knowledge you acquired for years reading and monitoring this forum, it shows!
you can't fool me lomplighter :cool: you can try to be civilised but that special mark of yours is indisguisable.
vic and mediocrates seem to be original but i know negev and aid are wandering around somewhere on this forum in disguise. i think as well that justpad and kaufner are one and the same person.
If i'm a creation of lomplighter he would have some serious schisophrenic problems.
Originally posted by takeo
vic and mediocrates seem to be original
I wouldn't be so sure about it :D
If i'm a creation of lomplighter he would have some serious schisophrenic problems.
or just displaying creative genius :)
...perhaps it's just NewsGuy and ibrodsky all of the time.
cerulean
05-28-2002, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by Vic
...perhaps it's just NewsGuy and ibrodsky all of the time.
So which one are you? :)
Originally posted by cerulean
So which one are you? :)
Who knows? After all, what human being can be sure about his or her identity anyway? Aren't we all of us just corns of sand in the infinite universe? I think I've been posting under the name of cerulean here, but I'm not so sure about it either anymore, you know... ;)
Oh, this is getting way too deep... Next thing we know, this computer will become "virtual"... :)
takeo
05-28-2002, 06:55 PM
I'm sure this site is infiltrated by secret agents or even double agents :eek:
don't we all have some serious identity problems? :D
I'm also sure one of the participants is actually Daniel Pipes, i suppose it's newsguy, but i'm not sure...
Pushtak18
05-28-2002, 07:37 PM
Danielpipes is newsguy?? but he isn't from Philly, is he?
takeo
05-28-2002, 08:36 PM
yea, but who says newsguy if from LA?
Take a look at this, as well as at the articles linked to on the page:
http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/May/Israel/index.html
It is a magazine of Iranian exiles, not published in Iran proper of course, but still I find the variety of opinion quite impressive
Originally posted by elke
Oh, this is getting way too deep... Next thing we know, this computer will become "virtual"... :)
Aren't we all of us mere products of our computers' imaginations?
Originally posted by Vic
Aren't we all of us mere products of our computers' imaginations?
Is it real, or Memorex? :D
cerulean
06-02-2002, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Vic
Aren't we all of us mere products of our computers' imaginations?
We're all emanations of the collective unconscious. (Sorry, a temporary New Age Jungian blip here.)
Back on topic, the Iranian magazine you mentioned has a number of interesting articles - in particular this one at
http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/May/Terror2/index.html
which has the subhead "Israel WON real estate in a fair and square war started by Arabs."
Pushtak18
06-02-2002, 12:12 AM
cerulean,
I have the pleasure to talk with a couple of Western Iranians/Perisans who live in places like America, Canada, England, France, germany, Austria, Argentina and even Israel and they are high supporters of the west and Israel.
Back in 1967, Israel had diplomacy with Iran, eventhough it wasn't full and high level diplomacy it was good diplomacy at that time and perhaps in the future it would evolve into something more terrirfic.
So anyways, in 1967 Iran congradulated Israel on the 6 day war as saying "israel won a war with strength and curizma and have beaten the unbeaten" or something like that...... which was pretty good from a frined :)
Iranians who are living abroad are crucial and there is just a low majority who supports the palestinians. Most don't like politics and religon and are very instrumental when talking about the future of Iran.
:) There very nice people too!
takeo
06-02-2002, 01:31 AM
Some Iranians living in the West support Israel, however not a majority. The Iranians in general don't like Arabs, in Iran as well.
In Iran few people if any support Israel, even the ones who hate or criticise the regime have only harsh words for Israel.
Originally posted by takeo
Some Iranians living in the West support Israel, however not a majority. The Iranians in general don't like Arabs, in Iran as well.
In Iran few people if any support Israel, even the ones who hate or criticise the regime have only harsh words for Israel.
How do you know that the majority of Iranians living in the West don't support Israel? Has there been a poll? As far as the people in Iran are concerned, again, I wouldn't bet that they would tell you what they actually think. In addition, since this conflict does not affect the Iranians directly, propaganda is much more powerful on them: they don't know all the facts, and base their opinions solely on what they hear.
Pushtak18
06-02-2002, 01:52 PM
elke,
you are correct! Yes, when you look at the TV and it shows Iran, than you'd see perfectly that Iran is hostile to Israel in many forms. One with propoganda, hate and ofcourse what happened and is going on in Lebanon.
Most of the Iranians who live in the west and very open minded. Comparing the Arabs, many Iranians had a choice and as well, they did when there was a revolution. The choice was this: "Whats more important Religon (Islam) or nationality (persian/Farsi/Asian/Iranian, etc...)???" and many chose nationality, which they feel is far more important to them. They love there ancestrial days, there baylonia era and there roots, food, and culture. Unlike the Arab, which there culutre runs for what they've done in the past 40 years with Arabic Nationalism, Iranians tend to be more soft on that. That is why in Iran today Jews are represented in Tehran gov't but 1 person in the cabinent there. Jews in Iran, although they are treated harshly are respected people and many are well eductated and belive there truly part of the Iranian culture, because they have been natives of what is now Iran for nearly 4000 years...thats almost 2500 years before the rise of islam in that area!
Plus you can't deny Iranian food taste so good. IN dizengoff st. in tel aviv this guy owns a Iranian take out resturant...whenever im there, i can't deny this guy..he already knows my face!
I like Iranian food too. We have a Persian restaurant not far from my job in NYC, and I took my boss and a couple of guests there for a business lunch. Believe it or not, they ordered Baked Salmon and steak! Americans, I ask you! :D
Pushtak18
06-02-2002, 03:29 PM
elke,
mmmm sounds good! I had baked wild rice and lambs...and it tated good...funny...but good :)
NewsGuy
06-02-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by elke
Believe it or not, they ordered Baked Salmon and steak! Americans, I ask you! :D
LoL!
:D
In NYC my favorite Persian restaurant is a kosher one called Kolbeh.
In L.A., great Persian restaurants are everywhere, but there is one called Sheherazade that is superb.
Just don't order baked salmon... Go for a nice Chelo Kabob Barg with a side of Dolmeh. ;)
Originally posted by NewsGuy
LoL!
:D
In NYC my favorite Persian restaurant is a kosher one called Kolbeh.
In L.A., great Persian restaurants are everywhere, but there is one called Sheherazade that is superb.
Just don't order baked salmon... Go for a nice Chelo Kabob Barg with a side of Dolmeh. ;)
I believe, that's the one I was talking about! It's on 38th Street, between 6th and 7th Avenues, I think (sorry, it's been a little while since I've been there).
takeo
06-02-2002, 05:19 PM
There are around 20 Persian restaurants in Paris, i tried 4 of them, and they really serve food as in Iran, yummy, but not for the same prices :(
OK, i presume most Iranians living in the West don't support israel, because all the ones i know don't.
You are right about the propaganda in Iran (no lies but partial, incomplete truth, the same as in israeli press) which influences their image of Israel, but people are not afraid to voice their opinion, they can be pityless for the regime.
Originally posted by takeo
There are around 20 Persian restaurants in Paris, i tried 4 of them, and they really serve food as in Iran, yummy, but not for the same prices :(
OK, i presume most Iranians living in the West don't support israel, because all the ones i know don't.
You are right about the propaganda in Iran (no lies but partial, incomplete truth, the same as in israeli press) which influences their image of Israel, but people are not afraid to voice their opinion, they can be pityless for the regime.
If they get anything like what I have seen on some of the Islamic websites, they get a full dose of lies, along with the half-truths.
I don't really know how many Persian restaurants are in NYC. Kolbeh is actually low to medium-priced, for NY.
takeo
06-02-2002, 07:29 PM
for NYC, where a normal not extra-ordinary meal in a restaurant costs around 50$ per person :(
in Iran an excessive delicious meal will cost you around 2$.
I don't know which Islamic websites you saw, but iranians know exactly all the violations of israel, without exaggeration, and the suffering of the palestinians, almost daily.
They never get to see the israeli side of the truth, as well as israeli never get to see the palestinian side of the truth.
Originally posted by takeo
for NYC, where a normal not extra-ordinary meal in a restaurant costs around 50$ per person :(
in Iran an excessive delicious meal will cost you around 2$.
I don't know which Islamic websites you saw, but iranians know exactly all the violations of israel, without exaggeration, and the suffering of the palestinians, almost daily.
They never get to see the israeli side of the truth, as well as israeli never get to see the palestinian side of the truth.
Yes, last time I was there (about 3 years ago), Kolbeh meals cost $5-$10 for appetizers, and $15-$25 for main course; and about $5 for dessert (my boss at that time always insisted that I have dessert :) . Needless to say, I REALLY liked him! :D )
"Iranians know exactly all the violations of Israel, without exaggeration?" I hope so, but how do you know that? How do you know what their newscasts tell them?
In reading Israeli press, it sure seems that Israelis do indeed get the "Palestinian side of the truth". I don't have sufficient Hebrew to get the original news, but there are plenty of direct translations, and I know plenty of people who do know adequate Hebrew to verify that the translations match the original.
Besides, the proof is in the pudding: there is a strong liberal movement in Israel, Palestinians go to the Israeli Beit Selem to cite the human rights abuses. As Beit Selem notes, since they are an Israeli organization, they concentrate on Israeli actions. Where is the corresponding, strong, Palestinian human rights movement that cites the Palestinian human rights abuses? Even when they are cited, there isn't - and never was, even when PNA was "armed and dangerous" - an enforcement mechanism. Regardless of why or how the Palestinian informants become "Israeli collaborators", their fate is gruesome and constitutes human rights abuse on a completely different scale from that Israel has ever perpetrated.
takeo
06-03-2002, 06:18 PM
"Yes, last time I was there (about 3 years ago), Kolbeh meals cost $5-$10 for appetizers, and $15-$25 for main course; and about $5 for dessert (my boss at that time always insisted that I have dessert . Needless to say, I REALLY liked him! ) "
my boss never does that, i think it's because i have the wrong sex :D
"I hope so, but how do you know that? How do you know what their newscasts tell them? "
i had discussions with iranians who know english and asked them what they know about the conflict. i can't read or understand Farsi.
the israeli press is mostly very biased, such important newspapers as the Jerusalem Post will unlikely post an article complaining about excessive israeli use of violence for example.
"Besides, the proof is in the pudding: there is a strong liberal movement in Israel, Palestinians go to the Israeli Beit Selem to cite the human rights abuses. As Beit Selem notes, since they are an Israeli organization, they concentrate on Israeli actions. Where is the corresponding, strong, Palestinian human rights movement that cites the Palestinian human rights abuses? Even when they are cited, there isn't - and never was, even when PNA was "armed and dangerous" - an enforcement mechanism. Regardless of why or how the Palestinian informants become "Israeli collaborators", their fate is gruesome and constitutes human rights abuse on a completely different scale from that Israel has ever perpetrated. "
that 's not true, the faith of millions of palestinians, being locked up in refugee-camps, loosing everything, bulldozered exiled, 1000's of palestinians murdered, is not comparable to the share of misery israeli people have endured.
That's why in Israel, a more or less wealthy society, where only few people are daily confronted with war (on the contrary to almost all palestinians), there is more place for dissent and moderation.
But most palestinians have recognised israel and want peace with it, but they support however military actions untill that peace is achieved, pretty much as the majority of israeli people.
Pushtak18
06-03-2002, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Takeo
that 's not true, the faith of millions of palestinians, being locked up in refugee-camps, loosing everything, bulldozered exiled, 1000's of palestinians murdered, is not comparable to the share of misery israeli people have endured.
That's why in Israel, a more or less wealthy society, where only few people are daily confronted with war (on the contrary to almost all palestinians), there is more place for dissent and moderation.
But most palestinians have recognised israel and want peace with it, but they support however military actions untill that peace is achieved, pretty much as the majority of israeli people.
Most Palestinians do not recognize Israel. On Paper, Arafat recognizes Israel, but he waives our right to live in almost every speech him makes. Contrary, Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not recognize Israel and will use every violent means it has, even after occupation to hurt civilians. Yet, in your other posts you made in these forums, you ecnourage Islamic Jihad to become part of the Palestinian Cabinet?
Seems like you encourage more violence and dispair, even though you live in France and pretty much have nothing to do with the conflict...smart thinking......
1000 dead?!??!?! you know, there's Israelis who died too...many of the dead in which you countred are people who got killed in the crossfire, and by accident!! Did you ever see once where Israeli Army kills and never apologizes if its an accident and then sets up an investigation? It happens alot! Whereas, your friends at Hamas and Islamic Jihad blow up people dilberately to derail perhaps a cease fire, a mission by a foreign politician or just to damadge what is now there.
And if you think 1000 dead is alot, why do you ignorant self-fish mut go to Colubmia...Every year 4500+ people get killed? why? the same reason that is happening or happened in Lebanon. Yet, you turn a blind eye to that? why is that? Why is it that you ignore that same facts and point to one direction? How much money the columbians pay you to do this? or better yet....how much ounces of coke did they offer you! :D
Other than that, Iranians are very nice people. I don't know which Iranians you talked to, but i had a chance to talk with some and many want change. They don't like Arabs, and they feel that they want the 1950-1979 era where they can live free and express freedome and once again be in the puplic-community eye.
I would love to see you open free speech, when youe whole country is run by Ayatollahs from nowhere else but hell!
NewsGuy
06-03-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by takeo
1000's of palestinians murdered, is not comparable to the share of misery israeli people have endured.
It's true. The Israeli innocent victims of Arab massacres are not at all comparable to the Palestinian perpetrators.
But I am dismayed by the poor Palestinians murdered by their own Palestinian Authority, slaughtered and hung to die like dogs in their Arab towns. I am very sorry that the world stands silent as the Palestinians butcher each other mercilessly. Here are some photos of the attrocities:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3054#post3054
and
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3056#post3056
takeo
06-03-2002, 08:22 PM
this is a tread about iran
some funny quotes from pushtak: "They don't like Arabs, and they feel that they want the 1950-1979 era where they can live free and express freedome and once again be in the puplic-community eye. "
I agree the current regime, or at least the conservative faction, is despisable, but describing the 1950-1970 period as a period where people can express freedom shows how far your bias reaches.
the Shah-police was based upon the spanish police under Franco, and anyone dissenting with the Shah had some pretty rough times in "free" Iran, maybe not worse than today, but certainly not much better either.
about colombia, sure many people die in colombia, but does that make the israeli actions any better???
i think in Ruanda even more people died, so it means Colombians can just continue?
yes some people get killed by accident, but don't tell me that all those palestinian deaths are "collateral damage"! many deaths were on purpose, against people armed with nothing but stones in many cases, or worse armless people.
i never ever said that hamas and islamic jihad were my friends, don't twist my words, i once said that reconciliation is possible if they change their policy (which is unlikely)
actually the israeli are the perpetrators of occupation and etnic cleansing.
you don't seem to have much compassion with the many innocent people murdered by the idf, but the ones who cooperated with israel for hard cash are "poor palestinians"
Pushtak18
06-04-2002, 05:07 AM
Takeo,
Listen up, you french rep scelion!! Don't insult my threads!! And don't poke fun at them.
There was issues in Iran and those issues were pretty bad, but there was a difference of change between the time Shah came into power and when Shah fled. I think that in perspective, the Iranian people would accept Shah once again. You can insult a monarchy that sometimes doesn't go so well, but like you and you sick pedophile mind, you accept Ayatollahs to run your country. You love the fact Ayatollahs do that. And in just a fair talk, in Iran, if you got money you can do whatever you want. You can rape people, you can hang, butcher, maim, cleanse, insalve and torture people. I think that Iranians want change as well as the Palestininas, but people like you seem to have a twisted way of dealing with people.
No offence, it people like you that find themselves lashed and lynched in the end!!!!!!! FOOL!!!!
Israeli don't commit anything!!! The Columbians die each die for Cocaine that is bought by you french and the west. Since its coming to your shores (and in french spekaing going to the Islamic/Arab mobs) i assume you have some responsibility. Instead of focusing on 1 issues which is the Israeli-Palestinian issue, i suggest you also look at the Columbian issue or Rawanda or even the Syrian issue.
You seem to put alot of your lies and ******** on things you don't know!
Out of maybe 1000 people that died because your little Jihads, and Inifhada's, i would say maybe a good 2% died on purpose or of targeted killings. The rest died in the crossfire, by accident, because they asked for it, and by there own people. You never stand up and have enough balls to go tell me that Israel will just go in and take out 40,000 people in a West Bank city for the fun of it! You know thats not true, but in your case you try to make it so forth!
Well, Takeo...If you support hamas and Jihad, especailly when you live in your sick-minded French country, and have no power to tell who wants to run and not. In a world-community sense that you brought up. You forcefully expect Israel to be friendly and do all sorts of things in the process. How can you want Palestinians to be World-friendly when they have US-list and EU-list Terror organization running in the PA seats. Don't let them! We're not Lebanon....The Civil war in Lebanon is over, yet it didn't feel like Ending!! There is still issues, Syria still deprives Lebanese people. There is an outcry, no one is listening, and the south is runned by pedophilic-cocaine addicts!!!!!! Is this the kinda palestine you dreamed of???
I am the IDF as well have alot of compassion with the people who lost there life in the crossfire or by accident. My heart goes out to them. I feel that they don't deserve to die! But due to there corrupted Regime, which wants everyone dead, thats just the way it is!!!!
By the time Arafat gets Jerusalem, all of palestine would be a funeral home!
SICK SICK MAN!!!!!! DID YOU HAVE BREAKFAST WITH HIM??
takeo
06-04-2002, 05:23 PM
I ADMIT
i'm a rep scelion (whatever that means)
the shah-regime was a freedom-loving democracy
i am in favor of the ayatollah khomeini (next to osama bin laden), i have his poster in my room, i adore fundamentalist regimes
i have tortured and lynched people myself
France is responsible for the war in Colombia
I am ignorant, you however should receive the Nobel-price for peace ( together with Ariel)
we should discuss the ruandan and colombian issues on israel forum
Palestinians were killed because they asked for it or by accident, all reports about palestinians killed on purpose are vicious lies.
Israel's presence in the westbank and gaza is purely self-defense
france is a sick-minded country
i said on this forum that i support hamas and Jihad
syria is occupying libanon , it are vicious lies that the libanese president invited them in. israel on the contrary liberated libanon, the libanese are very gratefull for that.
all palestinians are terrorists (which is probably the reason why there are no innocent victims among palestinians...)
south libanese are pedophil cocain-addicts.
Arafat is responsible for all evil since the day he was born.
i had breakfast with Arafat
Pushtak18
06-04-2002, 09:28 PM
Thats good talking about a gruzini russian, who lived all his life in freedome and spades in France!
Keep on going!
the bus never stops here!
I think, he meant "rapscallion", which is actually a very expressive term. Look it up! :)
Btw, Takeo cannot be "Gruzini" (Georgian), his family is from the Urals. But you are right, much of his information is erroneous or at least stilted, and it's difficult for him to understand where we are coming from, partially because of where he grew up.
takeo
06-05-2002, 05:37 PM
hey it was not in my dictionnary! French dictionnaries are not what they used to be at the times of Diderot...
I know "Gruzini", we call them the Georgian Jews in France who seem to be involved in illegal traphicking. I have been to Georgia, wonderfull country, but very racist people against Russians and Jews and actually anyone not Georgian. (ok, it's just my impression, i whave to write down my words carefully, everything i write can and will be used against me on this forum, while others have no problem making "stilted" or insulting posts) The country is at ruins and Shevarnadze must be the worst president ever...
"partially because of where he grew up."
what do you mean by that?
my views, as anyones views, are based on my education and my observations and readings, as anyone else's.
it's not because i have a different point of view that it is "erroneous".
Hey, watch it! My mother was born in Tbilisi and she can be dangerous! (just kidding, she is about 4'6'' - or 112cm tall and very friendly. Moreover, she is not really "Gruzini", she was just born there :D )
It's not your views that are erroneous - please re-read - it's some of the information you are basing them on.
The information acquired through reading, talking to people, education, etc. is "processed" and interpreted through the person's own lense, which to a large degree, depends on the person's experience. You grew up in a situation where you were free to express yourself, had access to information you wanted to access, and apparently have not experienced the scourge of anti-semitism. This is actually a "classic" prescription for a Jewish person who may not believe in Zionism. Pushtak grew up in different circumstances, and I in yet more different. Pushtak and I have experienced things in our lives that have made us very susceptible to Zionism. That's what I was referring to.
You are right, everything you write can - and will be used against you, not just here but also in life, and especially in the Academe (you are a historical researcher, right? This is good practice then...) Of course, you can always take the Fifth Amendment (...You have the right to remain silent, anything you say may, and will be used against you in the Court of Law, etc. etc.) ;) .
"Rapscallion" is a... well, person with the chutzpah, shall we say... :D
Pushtak18
06-05-2002, 06:56 PM
Takeo,
Me nor Elke have anything against what you say, but when you are in a university or high class kinda thing or even giving a lecture, it can really damadge your carrer, especailly when your a historian. Many good Historians lost there carrer when they denounce, condone or refuse to acknowledge good historic backrounds and events such as Hitler, relgion, denying holocausts and pogroms and progressing rhetoric.
If you want to get scotch free go to some Lebanese Univeristy and blab all the **** you want, but not here in the free world.
I think you need to know facts first, and maybe if you don't actually agree with the Encarta Encyclopedia or any other forms of facts, you can always turn to people who witnessed it first hand! :)
takeo
06-05-2002, 07:46 PM
I see ,well i think/hope i'm not such a person
"My mother was born in Tbilisi and she can be dangerous"
I see... so that's why you don't work :p
"The information acquired through reading, talking to people, education, etc. is "processed" and interpreted through the person's own lense, which to a large degree, depends on the person's experience. You grew up in a situation where you were free to express yourself, had access to information you wanted to access, and apparently have not experienced the scourge of anti-semitism. This is actually a "classic" prescription for a Jewish person who may not believe in Zionism. Pushtak grew up in different circumstances, and I in yet more different. Pushtak and I have experienced things in our lives that have made us very susceptible to Zionism. That's what I was referring to. "
I think pushtak grew up in a country where being Jewish was an advantage, not a handicap (in France or the US it is neither of both, it are no racial states), so he may be a bad example. He was susceptible to zionism because he lives in a zionist country.
In your case, i can believe that having experienced anti-semitism (even in subjective forms as in the Soviet-union) can be a cause for becoming zionist.
Still some people who have never experienced any kind of oppression are sometimes zionist, as people on this forum, so not all people become zionist because they have suffered anti-semitism.
my grandparents however, who have experienced the cruelty of WWII, and the murder of many nephews and uncles, aunts, etc. by the nazi's, have never become zionist, even when they had sufficient information about Israel trough my parents.
But you are right that zionism was influenced by anti-semitism in Eastern Europe in the 19th century, and that in general people not well informed and oppressed are more susceptible for radical solutions.
"You are right, everything you write can - and will be used against you, not just here but also in life, and especially in the Academe (you are a historical researcher, right? This is good practice then...) Of course, you can always take the Fifth Amendment (...You have the right to remain silent, anything you say may, and will be used against you in the Court of Law, etc. etc.) . "
I will be a professional historical researcher, so far only as a student, combined with another job.
you are right about that, but why can people insult me (and my country) without consequences, while i have to be very carefull what to write?
apparently the Court of Law on this forum is rather biased...
i have to agree that you are one of the nicer ones, even if you don't agree with me, you remain respectfull and open-minded.
takeo
06-05-2002, 07:52 PM
"Me nor Elke have anything against what you say, but when you are in a university or high class kinda thing or even giving a lecture, it can really damadge your carrer, especailly when your a historian. Many good Historians lost there carrer when they denounce, condone or refuse to acknowledge good historic backrounds and events such as Hitler, relgion, denying holocausts and pogroms and progressing rhetoric. "
yes, that's right, because for example denying the Holocaust is un-historic, because there are plenty of evidences that the holocaust occured. also defending Hitler is not allowed here.
but other than that limits, historians should have the free hand to defend whatever thesis they come up with, as long as they use strong arguments to defend it.
"If you want to get scotch free go to some Lebanese Univeristy and blab all the **** you want, but not here in the free world. "
so that's what free speech in israel is like?
"I think you need to know facts first, and maybe if you don't actually agree with the Encarta Encyclopedia or any other forms of facts, you can always turn to people who witnessed it first hand! "
it seems you should learn a few facts too, before acusing me of ignoring some facts.
I am going back to work day after tomorrow, Friday (I had a herniated disc surgery, that's why I have been home). I am rather looking forward to it: I like my job and I miss New York (not to mention my Starbucks coffee and lemon scone :) ).
US is funny that way: depending on where you are, and who you talk to, being Jewish can be either an asset or a liability, - or neither. It's individual. There are very strong laws against discrimination, and there is no identity card to tell anyone whether or not I am Jewish anyway, so it's certainly nothing like Russia. But if you are stupid enough to tell someone who is anti-semitic, some ugly things can happen.
There are different reasons why people become Zionist. It's like why some people are "liberal" and others "conservative". Depending on the personal experience, education, and thinking patterns, different worldviews are arrived at by different individuals, even based on the same facts. It is always tempting to think that someone disagrees with you because they don't have the "correct information", but much of the time it's simply different interpretation of the same information.
You are not the only one who has to write carefully. We all do. Those who don't, end up getting "ripped apart". Come to think of it, everyone gets that sooner or later: there are enough opposing views on this forum to assure that.
Anyway, this is an Iran thread...we digressed significantly...
Pushtak18
06-05-2002, 08:27 PM
takeo,
I don't hate you, i rather like you! Honestly! If i didn't i would have been a little pushy. And don't critisize this forum. I am new to it and i want to make friends and not foes. I like you, your a nice guy, nice, but odd...
What i meant by un-historic things is that there are many historians in the past who have denied things that got them in trouble. There are tons and tons of cases in France in USA, In england, sweden, you name it, where Professors and other high intellectuals questions a major significant thing in history such as the holocaust or condoned a major evil power that there own government might not accept.
These people got fired, lost there reputation....they never got arrested but they did get fined and perhaps got a couple of fatwas thrown at them here and there (Salman Rushdie to name a few...)
I don't think you should go out of your conclusion and expect that Zionism is bad and rate Israel as not a jewish, nor Democratic country, buy just a Zionist country. What does Zionist mean to you?
Zionist for me means an opprotunity or better yet and new future. For many people, who are jewish, we never had seen any rights. Jews, wherever they were..in the Arab, East/West Europe or even in the states and around the world have faced Persecution and racism. Its not a phenomena. Zionisms is the rights of jews. And one of the rights was to establish a homeland anywhere in the world, didn't exactly mean Israel, but to have state! Our own, where we can pray and worship and make our own rules and have our own laws and own our own lands, and especially have our own dreams!
Zionism never ever stated that they want to occupy and remove people from other lands. When the forefathers of Zionist sat together in Geneva at the late 1800's..they didn't want to wage war, they just wanted a homeland for jewish people. It can be small, but its our homeland and we can have freedoms there and live in harmony.
To be quiet honest with you, and i am telling you this by the bottom of my heart......If Zionist were to imagine that in another 100 years after there first assembly that Jews are still deprive, we occupy other people and we are inflicted with violence due to the reason of our win, policy and determantion, than i don't think they would have decided to create a zionist movement.
But Zionist movement doesn't always have to do with a country. It also have to do with many other issues! Did you know that many times in Europe a Jew had less rights than the average human being? did you know that we couldn't own lands and in some places we had curfews... We also didn't have a right to learn medicine and practice it, but zionism, which is our dream and our future changed it! It gave us the will and power to make hospitals like Mount Sinai which was a private hospital run by jews, who wanted to help and cure. That was the zionist dream...the make a hospital. And you know whats the most touching and emotional part about all the hospital-zionist thingy? Is that we allow and give rights to EVERYONE, no matter who he or she is. We let everyone come in to our hospital and get treated for. I went in mount sinai on my vacation to Boston, and i saw doctors there who were chinese, black, spanish, i saw people of ALL orginings in the hospital getting treated for. Not just 1. That is our dream, to make and help others.
And i think we truly did. If it wasn't for the Zionist/Jewish Movement than i would think there would never be a Black movement, a Feminist Movement, a chinese movement, a Gay movmement and even an Arab Movement in the world!! And remember, there was a Arab movement in the states, who made themseleves heard....Now the ADL (Arab-Deformation Leauge) watches out for your so called "ZIONIST CONSPIRATORS" and others who make movies like True Lies and other stuff and insult the Arabs..
But holy...They were good movies!!!!
But on any account, Zionist is what i am! I think that zionist helped me look at myself and be proud and say to myself i am a jew. I am fed up with you saying that just because i am from Israel, means i have an advantage. I don't! I earned my advantage. Why is it not fair for someone to work hard to get where he is? It kinda sounds your listening to Karl Max's theory on COMMUNISM.......and yet, your parents fled USSR from it to give you a better life in France. Be Thankful!!!
I think that Israel has given its people the opprotunity to be successful! Israel does not steal the money from its citizens or controls it. People have business and have firms and corporations and at best Israel helps them. One of the things that seperates Israel and the Arab world is FREE DEMOCRATIC DEMOCRACY SYSTEM. Even if you saw in Saudi Arabia that they drive BMB and Mercedes and out of nowhere in the desery they have this resort that is made out of 200 million dollars of marble floors, it still doesn't represent them. There is another side to it. Israel give the opprotunity to its people and its citizens. And we are a multicultural country, we have Arab citizens, and Arab-Jewish Citizens (like me!!), and people from all around the world..... infact, my next door neighbour is from Paraguay, my driving instructor is from Yugoslavia, my girlfriend is from Australia, my Dentist is from America, the guy who i buy a newspaper and cigarettes from daily is from Ethopia and my parents are mixed (one side is Russian, the other is Syrian....) So, you see, everyday i live in a multi-cutlral enviorment.
And if i have a choice on who to have in my country or not, it is my choice. I think that if everyone wants to solve the Palestinian refugees than the whole world has to be 1 and help them, instead of being un-focused and biased. I did the calculation and i think that if only 75 countries participate than each would have between 50-60,000 palestinian immigrants coming to there country.
Israel would accept that much, even more! BUt not insane numbers like 200,000!
KAPPISH?
takeo
06-06-2002, 05:42 PM
"I am going back to work day after tomorrow, Friday (I had a herniated disc surgery, that's why I have been home). I am rather looking forward to it: I like my job and I miss New York (not to mention my Starbucks coffee and lemon scone ). "
I miss New York too, I like the anonimity of the megapolis, but it's way too expensive to stay more than a couple of days. Where do you live now? (ps: my mother has hernia too, i know it's painfull :( )
"US is funny that way: depending on where you are, and who you talk to, being Jewish can be either an asset or a liability, - or neither. It's individual. There are very strong laws against discrimination, and there is no identity card to tell anyone whether or not I am Jewish anyway, so it's certainly nothing like Russia. But if you are stupid enough to tell someone who is anti-semitic, some ugly things can happen. "
Here it's exactly the same
"There are different reasons why people become Zionist. It's like why some people are "liberal" and others "conservative". Depending on the personal experience, education, and thinking patterns, different worldviews are arrived at by different individuals, even based on the same facts. It is always tempting to think that someone disagrees with you because they don't have the "correct information", but much of the time it's simply different interpretation of the same information. "
OK, i agree
"You are not the only one who has to write carefully. We all do. Those who don't, end up getting "ripped apart". Come to think of it, everyone gets that sooner or later: there are enough opposing views on this forum to assure that. "
yes, but my view is rather in the minority here, which makes it more vulnerable...
"Anyway, this is an Iran thread...we digressed significantly..."
absolutely, how did we change subject?
"I don't hate you, i rather like you! Honestly! If i didn't i would have been a little pushy. And don't critisize this forum. I am new to it and i want to make friends and not foes. I like you, your a nice guy, nice, but odd... "
Well, thanks, i would like to say about you too, some people on this forum are vicious some are OK.
"What does Zionist mean to you? "
it is a nationalist idea according to the 19th century national idea, one country-one people. In reality however that idea had as a fatal consequence, in both europe and the rest of the world, that people NOT belonging to the main etnic group, became discriminated or worse in the new national state.
"Zionist for me means an opprotunity or better yet and new future. For many people, who are jewish, we never had seen any rights. Jews, wherever they were..in the Arab, East/West Europe or even in the states and around the world have faced Persecution and racism. Its not a phenomena. Zionisms is the rights of jews. And one of the rights was to establish a homeland anywhere in the world, didn't exactly mean Israel, but to have state! Our own, where we can pray and worship and make our own rules and have our own laws and own our own lands, and especially have our own dreams! "
OK, but why could this state not be shared with the palestinians?
Why should palestinians be the victim of that idea?
Maybe it was better to establish that state in southern argentine, where very few people lived, in stead of palestine.
"To be quiet honest with you, and i am telling you this by the bottom of my heart......If Zionist were to imagine that in another 100 years after there first assembly that Jews are still deprive, we occupy other people and we are inflicted with violence due to the reason of our win, policy and determantion, than i don't think they would have decided to create a zionist movement."
I agree, however they could have predicted it if they knew people were living in the same place, they should have known this creates problems.
"But Zionist movement doesn't always have to do with a country. It also have to do with many other issues! Did you know that many times in Europe a Jew had less rights than the average human being? did you know that we couldn't own lands and in some places we had curfews... We also didn't have a right to learn medicine and practice it, but zionism, which is our dream and our future changed it! It gave us the will and power to make hospitals like Mount Sinai which was a private hospital run by jews, who wanted to help and cure. That was the zionist dream...the make a hospital. And you know whats the most touching and emotional part about all the hospital-zionist thingy? Is that we allow and give rights to EVERYONE, no matter who he or she is. We let everyone come in to our hospital and get treated for. I went in mount sinai on my vacation to Boston, and i saw doctors there who were chinese, black, spanish, i saw people of ALL orginings in the hospital getting treated for. Not just 1. That is our dream, to make and help others. "
OK, but than why not help the people who lived in israel for 1000's of years, the palestinians?
"And i think we truly did. If it wasn't for the Zionist/Jewish Movement than i would think there would never be a Black movement, a Feminist Movement, a chinese movement, a Gay movmement and even an Arab Movement in the world!! And remember, there was a Arab movement in the states, who made themseleves heard....Now the ADL (Arab-Deformation Leauge) watches out for your so called "ZIONIST CONSPIRATORS" and others who make movies like True Lies and other stuff and insult the Arabs.. "
that's an interesting hypothese...
"But on any account, Zionist is what i am! I think that zionist helped me look at myself and be proud and say to myself i am a jew. I am fed up with you saying that just because i am from Israel, means i have an advantage. I don't! I earned my advantage. Why is it not fair for someone to work hard to get where he is? It kinda sounds your listening to Karl Max's theory on COMMUNISM.......and yet, your parents fled USSR from it to give you a better life in France. Be Thankful!!! "
they didn't fled the soviet-Union, they worked for the Russian University in Paris on a mutual contract, and after more than 15 years of working in France, being married and with children, they decided to stay.
Being Jew in israel is an advantage compared to being palestinian, won't you agree? it has nothing to do with hard work. (i agree however that hard work of jewish pioneers helped to make israel a wealthy country)
"I think that Israel has given its people the opprotunity to be successful! Israel does not steal the money from its citizens or controls it. People have business and have firms and corporations and at best Israel helps them. One of the things that seperates Israel and the Arab world is FREE DEMOCRATIC DEMOCRACY SYSTEM. Even if you saw in Saudi Arabia that they drive BMB and Mercedes and out of nowhere in the desery they have this resort that is made out of 200 million dollars of marble floors, it still doesn't represent them. There is another side to it. Israel give the opprotunity to its people and its citizens. And we are a multicultural country, we have Arab citizens, and Arab-Jewish Citizens (like me!!), and people from all around the world..... infact, my next door neighbour is from Paraguay, my driving instructor is from Yugoslavia, my girlfriend is from Australia, my Dentist is from America, the guy who i buy a newspaper and cigarettes from daily is from Ethopia and my parents are mixed (one side is Russian, the other is Syrian....) So, you see, everyday i live in a multi-cutlral enviorment. "
i agree, that israel is a multi-cultural and democratic country, yet there is one limit, you have to be Jewish to be treated equally in Israel, palestinians who lived all their life in israel are still being discriminated by many israeli people and by the system too, if not systematically; And palestinian parties are never included in the israeli government. People as newsguy exist in israel too, who think "Arabs" have no real place in Israel and should be gratefull just because they have not been etnic cleansed as all the other palestinians.
"And if i have a choice on who to have in my country or not, it is my choice. I think that if everyone wants to solve the Palestinian refugees than the whole world has to be 1 and help them, instead of being un-focused and biased. I did the calculation and i think that if only 75 countries participate than each would have between 50-60,000 palestinian immigrants coming to there country. "
Israel can have a choice who to accept in israel, 100% right, BUT israel can not make discriminatory laws based on peoples race, and even more important israel can not refuse people who lived in israel for generations. this is international human law, the basis of the post WWII-jurisdiction and human rights. At least if israel want to be respected as a truly democratic country integrated in the international community and live at peace with its neighbours.
"Israel would accept that much, even more! BUt not insane numbers like 200,000! "
if israel can accept one million of russians, it can certainly accept one million of palestinians, this offer would be compensated by lasting peace and worldwide recognition, that it is worth for israel to consider this.
That's no fun! You just agreed with my whole post! :D
I live in Northern part of New Jersey, exactly 12 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel into Manhattan. You would think I have a short commute, but NO, it actually takes at least 25-30 minutes to get into the City, when I am lucky; and up to 1 1/2 hour when the traffic is bad.
When the Doctor found out where I work, he told me to stick around until Monday. So, Monday it is! :)
takeo
06-06-2002, 07:01 PM
OK, let's fight again if you're bored, ... :D
isn't there a metro in New Jersey? (ok, to stay at topic, they build a new metro in Teheran)
i don't have any disease, so i will have to work instead of pretending working to finish my scription :(
Originally posted by elke
That's no fun! You just agreed with my whole post! :D
Congratulations! What about a celebration?
Originally posted by Vic
Congratulations! What about a celebration?
I know, frightening, isn't it? I must be losing my touch! :D
Originally posted by elke
I know, frightening, isn't it? I must be losing my touch! :D
No you are not ;) I'm almost thinking of getting T. off my ignore list :D
Pushtak18
06-07-2002, 05:49 AM
Origilnally Quoted by Elke
I live in Northern part of New Jersey, exactly 12 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel into Manhattan. You would think I have a short commute, but NO, it actually takes at least 25-30 minutes to get into the City, when I am lucky; and up to 1 1/2 hour when the traffic is bad.
Do you like in Teaneck, New Jersey? Or that county inside teaneck, i forgot? There is a nice amount of jewish poeple/community over there!
Pushtak18
06-07-2002, 06:21 AM
Takeo,
About Zionism, do you think that it is not right for jews to have a homeland? OFcourse, for many years we have been known as Diaspora jews, and finally we had some land. Im not saying it is 1 land, 1 people! Remember we have Arabs living in our lands, we got many culturues living in our land. Its is a safe haven for jewish people to have freedoms, ofcourse its 19th century nationalistic idea, but it kinda matches todays critieria. Its like many would say, Hinuds have INdia, Roman Catholics have Vatican, the jews have Israel.
You never complain about Saudi Arabia and that is all totally islamic, just like Yemen, Oman and Pakistan. Infact there are maybe 10-15 countries which are ultra-islamic, and which have committed past genocides on the minoritys in order to make an ulta-populist nation?? isn't that sort of a crime, in the making?
Palestinians had the opprotunity to make there own state. They didn't! They complain about a 35 year occupation, yet, the British and the Turkish occupied them for well over 400 years to be put together not to mention the babylonians, greeks and others.....If it was there land and culture and values, than they should have had an authority. Its kinda odd that you have people who claim to be known as palestines (Philistines) and they have no connection whatso-ever. Infact, let me make this an odd point here. that the Philistian tribes that eroded in the area a few thousand years ago spoke a sort of latin-indo-eurasian language and not Arabic. Arabic as its own tribe. But none the less, the Palestinians in modern times show no remorse and respect to living side by side with Israel and even making an own state for themselves.
the Zionist inventors would never predicted Islamic backlash so far like this. I think that the refugee issue in perspective is not Israels fault! Ofcourse many did leave, but not all..... Most of the Israeli-Arabs who live inside israel were from Pre-1967 lands. Not the occupied lands, and evenso, Most of the driven were because of the Syrians who invaded and so with the Jordanian and Egyptians!
Well yea, the fact is that we want to help! but the Palestinians only 10 years ago started to make peace with us. Evenso, we helped bridge old ties. Remember, most of the economic jobs are found in Israel. Im not declaring out that these people work in the slums or something worse but they do work according to there past experience. For one, there are some teachers, there might be even doctors like in Haddassa hospital in Jerusalem, i think theres many who work in the office and theres plenty of jobs for them, including arab newspaers, theres also arab firms which they work for. So most of the opprotunitys they can find are inside Israel! I think that the world was blinded by Israel's Humantarian aide to the Palestinians. There were many times when we gave them some food and medicine back in the mid-90's and don't forget back in the 1970's at the Hasameite Kingdom (Jordan) when Palestinians were murdered many fled into West Bank and Israel because they feared.
Go into Beit Jala, and ask around theres alot of survivors!
Ok, so im not specificly talking about you and your parents here. Seems that they are educated and work in the University. But there are alot of people who don't get contracts you know! There are many who did fled, many jews, catholics and small minoritys! People did not want communism, they wanted freedom. Many left to USA, to Germany, England, Spain, Cyprus, Israel, Australia, Argentina, you name it!
Listen, there is no advantage with being a jew in israel or not. Its about choosing your life. The Palestinias are kinda the odd couple here. Look at the GNP, i know its not far fetched but did you know that the palestinians GNP is $3,800 per person??? Not much right, but they make more than people living in Yemen, Oman, Libya, Sudan and Tunisia!!!! And some of these countries are oil rich ones, yet there not making as much as the palestinians have? Intresting point there,no?
I think that we had the advantage, because we are democratic. We strive for democracy. You complain and blame israel so much for how the palestinians are today, but yet look who there leader is. a 70 year old parkinson-bent, dictator, who wears an ugly Kaffiya every single day and had a dictatorship uniform just to oppress and make everyone fear. He lies, he minipulates, he even married that blonde bitch Suha (arafat) just so he can get away from the crimes he committed in Da'mour, Lebanon. And yet, he isn't a palestinian, rather an egyptian....intresting?
I think you have to look at the real point before executing it. The Arab Israelis have some success. I know that a long time ago, they werent much, but yet times have changed and we are starting to treat them better. In fact, you go to a open air market in Tel Aviv, and you see an Arab women, all dressed in her average clothes. Do you think she would be taunted or hurt? no! I've seen many, they have the right to move and they don't get discrimnated, and yes there is discrimination, but it takes years for it to be worked on and were still working on it. Arabs have representation in all forms in the government and even when there arab foes call destruction he has a freedom of choice.
Infact, the average GNP for an Arab person in Israel is maybe $7,000 dollars short of an average Israeli, but he makes more money than anyother arab in the arab world!! (Excluding Bahrain, and Qatar).
We respect internatioanl laws, But you must look at the facts before making your conclusion. Israel is more than willing to obide by any INternational laws and we did, we have an arab population who lives in Israel and doesn't have a problem. The Palestinians have there own land. The notion of R.O.R was made as a gesturely comment in Camp David. There is no way that anyone would think that R.O.R would be brought to the forefront. Israel in the past only said to make a Palestinian state and not end up making 2 (one in Israel and one in Palestine) THis is anarchy at its best!
the 1 million russians were jews and ready to live in Israel and work in Israel. The 1 million palestinians are willing to commit destruction and a civil war. You talk so much about a lasting peace, but yet...your ingridients for a lasting peace is a civil war in the end, how can that be??? I say that israel must be willing and more than willing to accept 50-60,000 palestinians..not a million. You would damdge are economic infrastructure, make a small country more populated and invest in a civil war in a couple of years! This is insane and its not peace. Its a way to make up your so caled "If you lose up to your standard, we'll give you peace".
No, I live in a town called West Orange. The same town where Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. His laboratory and home are now a museum, about 15 minute walk from my house.
This is a nicely mixed community: for example, my 13-year old's best friends are a Jewish kid, a Vietnamese kid, an African American kid, and a Sri Lankan Muslim. He also has an Indian, Uruguayan, and an Israeli friend. He enjoys getting his Israeli friend to tell him how to say weird, funny things in Hebrew :D My other two kids have friends with similar variety of cultural backgrounds. I encourage that, because I think it's very, very healthy for them.
If you are ever in our neck of the woods, we would love to have you over! (you too, Takeo, of course :) )
Actually, the "Founding Fathers" of Zionism had reason to believe that the indigenous population would welcome the Jews. Here is the link to the Weizmann-Faisal Agreement:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/faisaltext.html
Although the British did not keep their end of the bargain, apparently, by not granting the Arabs their independence (or the Jews, for that matter), this agreement shows that the goals of the two movements - Zionism and Arab nationalism - were not necessarily at odds.
Pushtak18
06-07-2002, 10:07 AM
elke,
Thanks! :)
Im much of the American as you are Elke. I got alot of family in the USA, but most are in Boston, Florida or Calrnia!
I have visited New Jersey and its pretty nice, though i never been outside of it. I only been to Philidelphia and from my ride to Philly i had to go cross all of new jersey which was nice! I stopped at Teaneck for rest room and i remember it from then :)
i might go to America once again, hopefully next year sometime. Because my cousin is turning 13, and i think his bar-mitzva is due soon!
Mediocrates
06-07-2002, 11:46 AM
And Israel and New Jersey (or Vancouver Island) are the same size too!
takeo
06-07-2002, 01:22 PM
thanks for the invitation :)
"About Zionism, do you think that it is not right for jews to have a homeland? OFcourse, for many years we have been known as Diaspora jews, and finally we had some land. Im not saying it is 1 land, 1 people! Remember we have Arabs living in our lands, we got many culturues living in our land. Its is a safe haven for jewish people to have freedoms, ofcourse its 19th century nationalistic idea, but it kinda matches todays critieria. Its like many would say, Hinuds have INdia, Roman Catholics have Vatican, the jews have Israel.
You never complain about Saudi Arabia and that is all totally islamic, just like Yemen, Oman and Pakistan. Infact there are maybe 10-15 countries which are ultra-islamic, and which have committed past genocides on the minoritys in order to make an ulta-populist nation?? isn't that sort of a crime, in the making? "
it's not about religion, but about race, many, if not most jews in israel are not religious! if you want to immigrate to israel, they don't ask for your religion but for your blood-ties.
"Palestinians had the opprotunity to make there own state. They didn't! They complain about a 35 year occupation, yet, the British and the Turkish occupied them for well over 400 years to be put together not to mention the babylonians, greeks and others.....If it was there land and culture and values, than they should have had an authority. Its kinda odd that you have people who claim to be known as palestines (Philistines) and they have no connection whatso-ever. Infact, let me make this an odd point here. that the Philistian tribes that eroded in the area a few thousand years ago spoke a sort of latin-indo-eurasian language and not Arabic. Arabic as its own tribe. But none the less, the Palestinians in modern times show no remorse and respect to living side by side with Israel and even making an own state for themselves. "
you don't know history, people can change language, as the jews did too by the way; Palestinians speak arab but many of them have roots going back to before the Arab invasion, however all palestinians adopted Arab as their language. The palestinians since 1949 never had the opportunity to have an own free state.
Even before zionism palestinians were oppressed by the Brittish and Turkish.
"the Zionist inventors would never predicted Islamic backlash so far like this. I think that the refugee issue in perspective is not Israels fault! Ofcourse many did leave, but not all..... Most of the Israeli-Arabs who live inside israel were from Pre-1967 lands. Not the occupied lands, and evenso, Most of the driven were because of the Syrians who invaded and so with the Jordanian and Egyptians! "
it is not clear why they left, some say because they fled the war, others (among wich israeli scholars) say israeli army forced them, but most of the 4 million refugees have roots in pre-1967 israel and were not able to return.
"Ok, so im not specificly talking about you and your parents here. Seems that they are educated and work in the University. But there are alot of people who don't get contracts you know! There are many who did fled, many jews, catholics and small minoritys! People did not want communism, they wanted freedom. Many left to USA, to Germany, England, Spain, Cyprus, Israel, Australia, Argentina, you name it! "
I think the main reason why they fled was economic, as in most cases why people went to argentine, the us, France, etc..
"Listen, there is no advantage with being a jew in israel or not. Its about choosing your life. The Palestinias are kinda the odd couple here. Look at the GNP, i know its not far fetched but did you know that the palestinians GNP is $3,800 per person??? Not much right, but they make more than people living in Yemen, Oman, Libya, Sudan and Tunisia!!!! And some of these countries are oil rich ones, yet there not making as much as the palestinians have? Intresting point there,no? "
Lybia's GNP per person is almost the same as israel's...
Yemen and sudan are extremely poor countries, but people in Tunisia for sure live much better than the palestinians.
"I think that we had the advantage, because we are democratic. We strive for democracy. You complain and blame israel so much for how the palestinians are today, but yet look who there leader is. a 70 year old parkinson-bent, dictator, who wears an ugly Kaffiya every single day and had a dictatorship uniform just to oppress and make everyone fear. He lies, he minipulates, he even married that blonde bitch Suha (arafat) just so he can get away from the crimes he committed in Da'mour, Lebanon. And yet, he isn't a palestinian, rather an egyptian....intresting? "
he may be born in Egypt, but from Palestinian parents. Not all israeli are born in israel either.
Arafat is not a dictator, he has been elected. being democratic doesn't mean necessarily being wealthy, look at india, one of the poorest countries in the world...
if people have been occupied for many decades by another country, than this country is responsible for the economic disaster!
"I think you have to look at the real point before executing it. The Arab Israelis have some success. I know that a long time ago, they werent much, but yet times have changed and we are starting to treat them better."
ah ok, at least you recognise that they were not "israeli as any other israeli..."
" In fact, you go to a open air market in Tel Aviv, and you see an Arab women, all dressed in her average clothes. Do you think she would be taunted or hurt? no! I've seen many, they have the right to move and they don't get discrimnated, and yes there is discrimination, but it takes years for it to be worked on and were still working on it. Arabs have representation in all forms in the government and even when there arab foes call destruction he has a freedom of choice.
Infact, the average GNP for an Arab person in Israel is maybe $7,000 dollars short of an average Israeli, but he makes more money than anyother arab in the arab world!! (Excluding Bahrain, and Qatar). "
they are israeli citizens, but their parties will never be included in the government, and the discrimination is much on the subjective level, much as Jews were treated in the soviet-union, not open discrimination, but discrimination anyway.
how many israeli officers arz Arab? How many israeli topmanagers are Arab? of course they benefitted too from israel's succes, israel is not a tirth world country as most arab countries.
"We respect internatioanl laws, But you must look at the facts before making your conclusion. Israel is more than willing to obide by any INternational laws and we did, we have an arab population who lives in Israel and doesn't have a problem. The Palestinians have there own land. The notion of R.O.R was made as a gesturely comment in Camp David. There is no way that anyone would think that R.O.R would be brought to the forefront. Israel in the past only said to make a Palestinian state and not end up making 2 (one in Israel and one in Palestine) THis is anarchy at its best! "
they don't want two palestinian state, they want one palestine, and israel, with a minority of returned refugees who are treated as an etnic minority. that's what the international law wants.
"the 1 million russians were jews"
of jewish origin, exactly, that's the point, they had no other link with israel than being jewish, while the refugees have lived for generations in israel.
" and ready to live in Israel and work in Israel. The 1 million palestinians are willing to commit destruction and a civil war."
that's not true, most are willign to start a new life in israel, peacefully, if not they would not want to return to israel but ask for the destruction of israel.
"You would damdge are economic infrastructure, make a small country more populated and invest in a civil war in a couple of years! This is insane and its not peace. Its a way to make up your so caled "If you lose up to your standard, we'll give you peace"."
again, those arguments make no use, many foreign workers were attracted to israel, and many russians, so it means israel is not overpopulated and it's economy needs more people! and what's the difference (except that it would be a solution for much of israel's problems with th palestinians) between palestinians, and russians, thais, Romanians, etc. who work currently in Israel?
i think indeed arab (or palestinian) and israeli nationalism don't need to be ad odds, if only they respect eachothers claims and existance.
Libya's GNP per person is less than 1/2 that of Israel ($8900 vs. $18,900), but more than double that of the Palestinians' (about $3800, I believe. CIA Factbook does not have the info on Palestinians, but that's what I read before).
So, by your lights the British and the French are responsible for all the disasters in Asia and Africa, and Spain - for Central and South America? Even so, - and I agree with you that the colonial powers bear some of the responsibility for the mess in these places - why is Israel the only one that's supposed to pay the piper? What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as they say.
India, the country ruled by the British for centuries, - and Pakistan, the country outright created by the British, - are on the brink of a nuclear war! French Guyana is one of the poorest nations on this planet. Not to mention that the ME crisis is also partially direct responsibility of the British. Yet everyone is sitting there, demanding that Israel do this and do that, at the expense of its existence and has the gall to call it "colonialist".
You can still come over, if you'd like! :)
takeo
06-07-2002, 02:29 PM
thanks again, i will remember your invitation :)
as you said, having the same opinion 100% is boring...
ok, you might be right about Libia, i didn't know, in any case the country doesn't look much poorer than israel;
I think the british and French are responsible for quite some disasters in Asia and Africa, and the spanish are still responsible for the terrible faith of many indigenous people in latin America.
but all this was decades or centuries ago, which makes they can't be held responsible for everything occuring in those countries(but indeed for some general problems yes), while the israeli occupation is still going on.
ps: french guyana isn't one of the poorest countries on earth, it is actually the richest place in Latin America. There were referenda and people choose with an overwelming majority to stay part of france.
i don't think referenda in the occupied territories would have the same result...
http://www.aivp.com/aivp/pnbgb.htm
You are right about the French Guyana: I goofed. I knew a girl from there and that's what she said, but I should've checked instead of just taking her word for it. :o
I agree that the Europeans should not be considered solely responsible for the Third World mess, but neither do I think that Israel is responsible for everything that occurs in the Palestinian territories.
The ultimate goal, I am sure, is to have a political, economic, scientific, etc. cooperation. I do believe that it's possible and likely to happen eventually. The only part we really disagree on is whether it's possible at this time .
L@mplighterM
06-07-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Vic
No you are not ;) I'm almost thinking of getting T. off my ignore list :D
I'm not !
takeo
06-08-2002, 08:53 AM
oh my God!!!!
Lomplighter is ignoring me :(
I will have to enjoy my loneliness in the company of the moon and the stars, what a cruel God who gives and takes the delightfull presence of Lomplighter among all nice things in our short existance on earth ;)
Originally posted by takeo
oh my God!!!!
Lomplighter is ignoring me :(
I will have to enjoy my loneliness in the company of the moon and the stars, what a cruel God who gives and takes the delightfull presence of Lomplighter among all nice things in our short existance on earth ;)
How poetic! :D
Hi Takeo!
I can provide you with nice links to forums where you can enjoy the attention of all the participators - mutually ;)
takeo
06-08-2002, 09:33 AM
yes, Elke, i hope Lomplighter will notice my cry for attention trough your quote :D
seriously now, I have other qualities as well Elke... ;)
ok Vic, i'm interested, do you mean the forum of the Miss-Russia-contest?
Originally posted by takeo
yes, Elke, i hope Lomplighter will notice my cry for attention trough your quote :D
seriously now, I have other qualities as well Elke... ;)
ok Vic, i'm interested, do you mean the forum of the Miss-Russia-contest?
A fine feature of this forum, the click to display single postings of ignored users
Oh, you have "other qualities as well"? Just out of curiosity: do you ever do anything else than post your ramblings in this forum?
No, they still seem to appreciate good writing style in Russia :)
I mean this one http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=37 for example.
Still, come to think of it, maybe it would do you good to change the topic for some time...
takeo
06-08-2002, 10:52 AM
I found an interesting post on this link you gave me:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3483
The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel ...................Jack Bernstei
Originally posted by takeo
I found an interesting post on this link you gave me:[...]
What? You have never heard of this masterpiece before?
I knew you'd like the forum, but do try Russian beauties for a change :)
That article should go into "The Joke and Parody" thread. It must have put PFLP in stitches! :D
takeo
06-08-2002, 03:49 PM
I didn't actually read it, i was just attracted by the title, which seems to be the most interesting part of the article.
do you have the link, vic? I need to express my other qualities as well...
Oh, but you have to read it! It's superbly entertaining! :D
takeo
06-08-2002, 05:36 PM
indeed, you are right, I will send this text to some friends of mine in the PCF, they will have a good laugh too...
I feel more comfortable now that i know some American Jews have even lower english language skills than i do... :D
the content is also very funny, just an example:
"In Israel, most Jews have become tired of Israel's
involvement in war and aggressive acts and want peace. It
is only the communist faction that wants war. Sadly, it
is these communists who are in power in Israel. "
"From the terms of this pact, you can see it was, and
still is, the aim of the Soviet Union and Zionist/Marxist
Israel to prevent peace between the Arab countries and
Israel until all the Arab countries are forced to adopt
socialism under Soviet ledership"
:rolleyes:
those damn commies...
I wouldn't bet on it that this was written by an American. There were so many factual errors in that thing, that it's doubtful that whoever wrote it had even a cursory knowledge of what a kibbutz is, - which suggests that the whole thing is a hoax.
Of course, to paraphrase Morpheus' signature, human stupidity knows no bounds, so you never know... :D
cerulean
06-11-2002, 11:00 PM
Thomas Friedman article about Iran:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/12/opinion/12FRIE.html
According to the article, the average Iranian feels life would be considerably better if the US embargo against Iran was lifted.
Bush's "axis of evil" statement is apparently being used to good effect by reformers.
Pushtak18
06-13-2002, 09:13 PM
Many people in Iran are much different then the ones we see on TV or in the Media.
Alot of very western and hardworking bunch who just want to see a better life and education for there offsprings.
Iran today has changed drimaticly....Not many Iranians are being angry or provoking hatred towards the U.S for calling Iran an "AXIS OF EVIL" infact, they were happy for that, because it finally proved the main question to the Hard-liners in Iran which is "AFTER 22 YEARS OF THE REVOLUTION LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE US COME TO".
Good people in the U.S who you should hear the Iranian-American relation. They are pro-west, pro-democracy, pro-israel and pro-U.S and they want to restore full democracy in Iran and help Iran hopefully begin a trance into a better life!
Originally posted by cerulean
According to the article, the average Iranian feels life would be considerably better if the US embargo against Iran was lifted.
Well, duh! What an insightful conclusion Friedman came to! :D
(I am sorry, I don't have access to the NY Times, Cerulian, so I had to quote you instead...then I re-read it today, and it sounded grossly rude. Sorry! I did not mean it that way! :o )
Iran is a special case though, IMHO, because there seems to be a good deal of normal people there.
takeo
06-15-2002, 04:27 AM
"Iran today has changed drimaticly....Not many Iranians are being angry or provoking hatred towards the U.S for calling Iran an "AXIS OF EVIL" infact, they were happy for that, because it finally proved the main question to the Hard-liners in Iran which is "AFTER 22 YEARS OF THE REVOLUTION LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE US COME TO". "
no, actually most people are very angry for calling Iran as belonging to the "axis of evil". The people in the documentory said such actions could only strengten the conservative forces in Iran that are not interested in good relations with the West anyway. They find it also unfair, because their country was not involved in the sept. 11th attacks, but on the contrary provided the US with usefull information. Iranians are very patriotic and any such declarations will enrage the whole people, no matter if they belong to the system or not. My iranian friends in the university had the same opinion.
Pushtak18
06-15-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally quoted by Takeo
no, actually most people are very angry for calling Iran as belonging to the "axis of evil". The people in the documentory said such actions could only strengten the conservative forces in Iran that are not interested in good relations with the West anyway. They find it also unfair, because their country was not involved in the sept. 11th attacks, but on the contrary provided the US with usefull information. Iranians are very patriotic and any such declarations will enrage the whole people, no matter if they belong to the system or not. My iranian friends in the university had the same opinion.
Who are you getting your information from, the hardliners or the PEOPLE, let me clarify you again...THE PEOPLE! Go to the Iranian-American committe (IRC), and you will see that they see this as hope and benefit, because as i said before, Iranians are finally questioning a corrupted religous regime. You and your ignorant and provocative French laisson attitude, will not get Iran anywhere. Listen to the people, not the Conservatives. Don't listen to the documentary, because 90% of the documenatry was controlled by the Conservatives, they own everything in Iran, so its baseless to say that you get your information from some sources like this! Listen to the people. The people want freedom and they want relations with America. Calling them the Axis of Evil doesn't insult Iranian people, but the Iranian Regime! Get it?
Iranians weren't the ones that did sept 11, but Terrorism is Terrorism and Iran supports it. They have there hands tied up with the bombin in Saudi Arabia and many hijackings as well as the famous US NAVAL BOMBING in October of 1983 in Lebanon. You complain about occupation, well, there the ones who occupy and diseat Souther Lebanon, so round of applause for Takeo and his ignorance! Also, Hezbollah had a sort of suicidal mission in May 2001, where a Lone pilot flew his plane in Israel without permission and was shot down....So was this a sort of accident or the frame work for 911??? you be the judge! Also, many in the US congress say that Iran has helped a good number of Taliban and Al Quida forces, don't deny that as well!
I agree, many Iranians are patriotic and proud of the Persian/Farsi Culture, but the matter is, that its the regime that needs to be changes. The people want Freedome and democracy, and you ignore this. What kind of humanatarian are you? One with a the 2 prong crowns in your head?
takeo
06-15-2002, 10:29 AM
Iranian-American committe (IRC) IS NOT EXACTLY THE REPRESENTATION OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE
The documentory was made by french television and most people were harshly criticising the conservatives in the documentory, so they had no fear expressing their opinion.
Terrorism is terrorism but the US supported terrorism as well. So should we include the us too on the axis of evil?
I tought the "war on terror" was a reaction to 11/9, no? not to the US naval bombing 19 years ago... , which was actually an act of war, not terrorism.
i am not denying that iranians want freedom and a change of regime, but at the same time the Iranians don't like their country being added to the "axis of evil"(Bush did not mention the conservative forces in Iran but the whole country), especially since the regime is changing and one particular part of the regime (president khatami and the parliament) is strongly supported by the majority of iranians, and not some kind of obscure group in the US. And especially since iran has for a long time not any longer participated in terrorism against the US.
if some country would call Israel the big evil, would you consider it to be against the whole country or only against the regime in israel?
Mediocrates
06-15-2002, 11:12 AM
Actually they have. The entire arab world has formally called Israel the little satan or the evil zionist oppressor or the land formerly know as Palestine or whatnot regardless of what they think of Israelis or Jews individually. The purpose of it is to install hatred of a whole group of people w/o bothering to think too deeply about it. That's what arab propaganda is.
Pushtak18
06-15-2002, 02:26 PM
"Iranian-American committe (IRC) IS NOT EXACTLY THE REPRESENTATION OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE
The documentory was made by french television and most people were harshly criticising the conservatives in the documentory, so they had no fear expressing their opinion."
the Iranian-American commit