Hope in Iran

[Skogan]

As I'm sure you all know, there is a serious unrest in Iran. The calls for liberty and a secular government is strong. You may have seen the news reports where even their religious ruling class has stated that change must be made. (This, of course, is an attempt to appease the masses with the current regim, to muzzle their call for a new, secular government.)

This is a link to the Iranian student website. Lots of pictures and news concerning their effort. I highly encourage all to take a look at it, because it really shows a glimer of hope.

In the next post I am going to paste a copy of the "Letter to America" written may 12 of this year. It really shows the possablities that may exist there.

General website is here:

http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org/

[Skogan]

A public letter to the American Nation

SMCCDI Political Committee
May 12, 2002

Dear America,

Sorrow of the tragic events of the Sept. 11, 2001, still heavily weighs over your hearts. Grief of such horrible event will never be forgotten in your history .

You remember how terrorism that knows no borders or boundaries when it casts its ominous shadow, sent thousands of innocent souls to death and doom.

For the first time you felt the true meaning of terror in your own dwellings as you came face to face with the Islamic fundamentalists acting as terrorists. Because of those terrorists, countless people of Islamic nations haven’t had a restful night of sleep for many years. Because of the same terrorists, countries such as Algeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, and Iran have been for long engulfed in the fire of violence.

Today in the Western world, you and the rest, who used to watch the violence perpetrated by these cannibals only in newscasts, are suddenly witnessing their barbaric violence at your own doorsteps and are asking yourselves, “ Who are these fundamentalists?”
To answer this question we must go to an ancient land that for twenty-three years has been suffering their evil rule. That country is the land of Cyrus the Great and Queen Esther, Iran. Iran, a country with deep wounds inflicted by violence and terror. Iran a country that is tired of war and destruction and constant torture of its youth …

For a very long time the clerical rulers of Iran have slaughtered freedom and justice in the name of religion. Yes, indeed, their understanding and philosophy of religion is Fascism: The very same understanding of Islam that allowed Bin Laden and Mullah Mohammed Omar of Afghanistan act as if they were gods. The identical philosophical belief is allowing their equal in Iran rule like Pharaoh on the throne of “Supreme Jurisprudence.” Khamenei, Bin Laden, and Mullah Mohammed Omar are thirsty for violence and cruelty. All three are truly woven of the same cloth. They have chosen ignorance and superstition over reason and logic; hate over love; pretension and deception over honesty and piety; oppression and injustice over justice and kindness; bondage and captivity over freedom and liberty; and finally death over life.

Their reactionary way of thinking in our modern times is indicative of their low life resembling a reptilian type which has been left over from the dark barbaric ages. As a nation, the high majority of Iranians are not terrorist—they are the victims of barbarism and terrorism of the fundamentalists. Thus, in our sympathy towards you in those dark hours of September 11, we Iranians deeply understood the pain you felt. We understood very well what happened to the defenseless victims. Just a day after that ominous day, wearing black in honest sympathy with you, we poured into the streets to raise our voice of mourning so that you may hear us and know that we do understand the depth of your lamentation. We mourned the loss of those victims as sincerely as if they were our own brethren and flesh and blood. We lit candles and raised hands of prayers to the Lord almighty and asked him to bless the souls of the departed ones, and bestow patience to the loved bereaved ones. And then we showed our hatred of those barbaric animals to the world when we shouted in unison “ DOWN WITH TALIBAN, IN KABUL AND TEHRAN!!”
How well our wise poet, Sa’di, wrote:

Humanity are all parts of one body,

As they all share the same origin in creation.

If one part begins to suffer and ache,

All the rest lose tranquility and comfort.

Dogmatic reactionaries of Tehran and Kabul are members of the same tribe. They all regard people as invalids needing guardianship. They regard women low and satanic. Human rights isn’t worth a penny for them. They don’t even value their own lives—let alone others! They train terrorists and hate humanity…

They are coolies of religious totalitarianism, unfaithfulness, ignorance, power mongering, and Lumpenism. Religion serves them only as a tool for acquisition of power and wealth. Their culture is to impose, to imitate (their leaders), to deceive, to beat and flog, to frown and be grim, and to brawl. These fundamentalists are too insignificant to be able to make any positive impression or cause a ripple in the ocean of humanity or capture any body’s heart. Their rage and animalistic anger is a testament to their ineptitude.

Now, how can we overcome this ignorance and darkness?

Obviously, Talibanism and Islamic fundamentalism are terrible schools of thought that threaten and seek to destroy the free world. The only way to combat this unfortunate cancer is to expand liberty and advance democracy. Fundamentalists thrive and grow in the shadow of their country’s rule of despotism and self-centrism. A breeze of reason and wisdom will surely blow away their unholy presence.

Afghanistan was not the cradle of the Taliban. Rather, it was the Western world’s lack of concern and neglect of Afghanistan which allowed the Mullah Omars and the Bin Ladens to emerge. If the war torn Afghanistan wasn’t left to fend for itself; if the defenders of human rights had not neglected the Taliban’s rebellion and insurrection; and if the US policy wasn’t backing down and smiles and flowers in answering the destruction of the ancient Buddha statues by the Talibans, America would have never witnessed the collapse of her World Trade Center towers.

But unfortunately we still observe today that in this world there are many who don’t care and the valuable lessons so clearly spelled out on September 11 haven’t been completely learned yet. And that, is the compromise and face turning by the world and not challenging the crimes being committed by the Iranian Talibans. There isn’t a day that we don’t witness breaking of the pens and incarceration of our writers and intellectuals in our country. Songs of freedom are choked in the throats and gallows are raised all the time. Our old beacons of knowledge and wisdom are being tortured in captivity and no one is voicing any objection! The so-called human rights entities today are praising Iran’s corrupt regime for its “observance” of human rights while they should be reprimanding and admonishing them. How strange!

But today we address you, the great nation of America. You know the taste of war against colonialism and you have paid dearly for your liberty.

America,

Today our people have chosen the way of liberty and democracy and need the help of you dear people.

Today Iranian freedom lovers have risen to wipe out the dictatorship of theocracy and the “Supreme Religious Leader.” Today the Iranians are reaching for your lending hands in freedom and equality and prosperity. Do you see their struggle in reaching justice and establishing reason?

We expect you to echo our cries for freedom to the world as loud as you can and pressure your government to help eliminate oppression and free our political prisoners by implementing appropriate diplomatic and political measures against the ruling regime.

We sincerely implore the American mass media to put an effort in utilizing their worldly tribunes to mobilize and focus public attention to our quest for liberty and keep alive the memory of our crusaders of freedom always and every where.

And in the end, as Iran is campaigning and striving to realize her rights and freedom, we ask the United States government not to ever sacrifice the truth for political expediency, and set observance of human rights as a pre-requisite for resumption of relations between our countries.

SMCCDI, bound by duty of guarding and helping to propel the civil movement of Iran, hereby sincerely shakes the helping hand of your great nation and awaits the sentimental assistance of your magnificent country.

Tehran, May 12, 2002

The "Student Movement Coordination Committee for Democracy in Iran" (SMCCDI

[L@mplighterM]

The letter is most likely bogus, as a matter of fact anyone could write a letter like that. If it?s pro Iran propaganda it didn?t work on me.

Better luck next time!

[Skogan]

It's very anti-Iranian government, pro-reform. It says the U.S. should continue to condem the government, alert the media to their abuses. They don't want to fix the government, they want to overthrow it. It is consistant with Independant news sources about whats going on in the region.

Your suspicion is understandable, but I think unjustified in this case. There is a significant movement in Iran to become a secular state. We should all support that.


Skogan

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Skogan
There is a significant movement in Iran to become a secular state. We should all support that.
Yes, that's true. A very large portion of the Iranian population opposes the oppressive and brutal Islamic regime.

I agree that the U.S. and Europe haven't done enough to support the grass-roots opposition in Iran.

[takeo]

actually it is more extreme than the position of the Iranian youth, which supports president Khatami against Ayatollah Khamenei, they want better relations with the world, not worse.
By the way it is not just to compare the Afghan fundamentalism to iranian fundamentalism, Iran is a very liberal country compared to Taliban-Afghanistan, and both were die-hard ennemies, Iran supported the us-les coalition against the Taliban.

[Skogan]

Originally posted by takeo
actually it is more extreme than the position of the Iranian youth, which supports president Khatami against Ayatollah Khamenei, they want better relations with the world, not worse.

I think your position is consistant with the letter above. There is a split between those who think reform through Khatami should be given a chance, versus those who think that nothing but a replacing the current government with a secular one will be adequate. (Khatami threatens to quit often for this very reason. Khamenei and co. are blocking reform. You may have notice that now, Khamenei even said the level of discontent with the government is so great, that the country is on the fringe of being torn apart.) Both camps want better relations with the world, but want outside pressure to help create reform.

Either way, the secularist movement is alive in Iran.

I take your point about the comparison, but they were comparing them on the grounds that they were both fundelmentalist, and opposed secular values, which is true. Iran may be more liberal then the Taliban, (but then, who wasn't?) but that wasn't because of the fundementalist, it was because of Khatami and the reformist.


Skogan

[christian]

Please, let's make no more enemies. If I had a choice between suffering under the ragheads and being bombed by the U.S. with the hope of getting rid of the mullahs, I would take the latter. People are dying in Iran by the hands of the Islamic regime everyday. It's an everyday killing spree against anyone threatening the regime.
I don't really think the U.S. will bomb Iran even though I kind of hoped they did. My point is that if we are to organize any Anti- this and that, it better be an anti-islamic regime effort. Anything else would be a waste of precious time. Besides, if we were to object to any potential action by the U.S. against Iranian regime out of cowardliness and fear, it would only benefit the cause of the mullahs. In many of the clashes against the regime's vigilantes and the Basijis, people cry out things like "I hope the U.S. drops bombs on your heads".

So to all you outside of Iran. Please don't be chickens just because you want your granny who who you haven't seen all your life and don't really care about to live to be 100 in Iran. Chances are she is malnurished and suffers from severe depression anyway.

Iran is falling apart people. DO SOMETHING!

We need DIRECT action against the mullahs. Both inside and outside the country. Forget about what the U.S. is thinking. Voice you opinions and let them know what they should be thinking if you don't like their policies. Other than that, Iran can only be set right (or wrong) by we, the poeple of Iran.

Kayvan from , Iran


I am surprise. Some iranian like US bomb. They hate their regime so much.

I went to Iran last year. AT the war in Afghastan, the taxi driver is asking me," when we will be next?". He wants US bomb, to get rid of the regime.

On the other hand, some people just hate US.

[takeo]

Even khamenei was very much opposed to the Taliban, and even under Khomeini Iran was never as extremist as the taliban.
yes there are different opinions among iranians, yet in the last elections more than 80% of the people, among wich many women(yes, on the contrary to SA they can leave their house and VOTE) voted for supporters of khatami, it seems the president is still very popular. Also Iran doesn't really seem a poor and fundamentalist country, it is quite devellopped and there are house-parties, boys and girls meet in parcs, women are business-leaders, etc. It seems much more modern and Western than many Arab countries.
Most Iranians are still Islamic, i never met one single Iranian who would like to see his country bombed by the US... even those who hate the fundamentalists very much (most) still hate the US too for supporting the Shah (after all these years still hated).

[elke]

Takeo, what is the statistical basis for your analysis that "most Iranians" still hate the US? How many, and which people have you spoken to?

I don't think anyone is bombing Iran anytime soon. It seems that Iranians are capable of their own revolutions. IMHO, however, it is certainly worthwhile to help the opposition as much as possible.

[takeo]

I have been to Iran (Teheran, Isfahan, mashked, Kish and the caspian coast) two years ago and know Iranians here. Many Iranians speak english (second language) and like to talk about politics, most of them have an outspoken opinion.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
I have been to Iran (Teheran, Isfahan, mashked, Kish and the caspian coast) two years ago and know Iranians here. Many Iranians speak english (second language) and like to talk about politics, most of them have an outspoken opinion.

I repeat the question: how many people have you questioned? What were the percentages for various responses? For that matter, what were the questions asked? What is the standard deviation? Who were these people: their profession, age, sex, religious affiliation, etc. If this data is not available, a sweeping statement such as the one you made regarding what "Iranians think" is meaningless.

It sounds like a great trip! From what I have seen of Iran, it looks beautiful! I have known some Iranians here. They were very, very nice, well-educated, smart, charming, and not at all unfriendly to the US. But, of course, the ones I have known live here - so I can't generalize from this experience.

[takeo]

"I repeat the question: how many people have you questioned? What were the percentages for various responses? For that matter, what were the questions asked? What is the standard deviation? Who were these people: their profession, age, sex, religious affiliation, etc. If this data is not available, a sweeping statement such as the one you made regarding what "Iranians think" is meaningless. "

Well, of course i didn't make any statistics or polls, but i've talked to quite a few Iranians of all ages and sexes (maybe around 100, however i prefere the female :p ) and most (don't know exact percentage) supported Khatami but also criticised the US (hating is maybe too strong(because of the Gulfwar and support for the shah), this would be more appropriate in iraq). I talked mostly to educated people, but on some occations as well to shop-keepers and peasants. i would say the big majority of all professions share that feeling and hate the fundamentalists. young and educated people and women are ALL in favor of khatami (the ones i spoke to) and hate the fundamentalists.
about the questions, i didn't ask any, they always started about this spontanously.

"It sounds like a great trip! From what I have seen of Iran, it looks beautiful! I have known some Iranians here. They were very, very nice, well-educated, smart, charming, and not at all unfriendly to the US. But, of course, the ones I have known live here - so I can't generalize from this experience."

Yes, you are right, Iran is one of the most beautiful countries i ever visited, very diverse (looks like georgia near the caspian sea while other parts are pure desert, some cities as isfahan are like in a fairy-tale) people are extremely friendly, honest and hospitable. In some regions people look like Russians (iranian azerbaidjan) while in other regions like Arabs, Turkmen, or gypsies. The food is delicious and the music very poetic. actually Iran is according to me a lot more pleasant than arab countries and living-standards and education are better.
There is also some religious tolerance in iran, Armenians live in all parts of Iran without much problems, they are the only ones who are allowed to drink alcohol. Some iranians still worship the old religion of zoroastrism.
they don't hate americans I think, but are sceptical over the american foreign policy. The image we have of iran in the west as similar to afghanistan and full of crazy people is really not correct.
if you ever have the chance you should visit it (however as an american national i don't know if it is possible).

[Vic]

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/sciolino-persian.html

[L@mplighterM]

When he was in Iran (earlier post) he rubbed elbows with higher ups in government. When he was in Cuba he just peeked in on the forum but he never posted I guess Castro wouldn?t let him. When he was in Viet Nam ????.when he was in South America??????..this is a never ending story.

When he was in the WB he polished Arafat?s boots.

[Skogan]

I saw a documentary on Iran about a year ago. It showed people snow boarding down a mountain. Wasn't what I expected.

Skogan

[takeo]

LOL

higher ups of the government? in Cuba i posted in Guatemala not, there i had to miss your poetic contributions to this forum.
by the way i was never in South America.
i will not sleep one second less if you think i'm an Arab who has never been outside his refugee-camp and by the way you said as well that i was victot, and Belgium, and northlander, etc.
yes i'm all the same person and i have an incredible imagination, mr. who speaks fluently mandarin, latin, spanish, russian, danish, ... :rolleyes:
by the way skogan is one the newest of my creations.

[Pushtak18]

For Iran, the issue speaks on itself.


yes; there is change in the attitude that is in Iran right now. I heard that due to reform in 1997, there was a huge cut backs in...births!! True thing. It was slated that Iran would have a population of 106 Million people by the year 2006. But Ayatollah Khatami has encouraged condoms. Infact, i saw a documentary on Iran and how they got Sheilds and Trojan companys to make condoms right in Iran and they even sell them in stores there! :)

Iran wants change. Especially the students. The hardliners see it and are not impress.....the only 2 solutions to this 2 decade old-conflict is this:

1) Ayatollah would be replaced by a full-harded hardliner....They will once again support attacks in Iraq (which they firmly do) and they will kill around 20,000 people in a second Revolution. How fun?

2) The young will take over, wipe out the hardliners and the reforms and go for an ultra-reform government that seperate Religon and democracy. Then all the islamic laws will be taken off and the new IRANIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM WOULD BE "MONEY" BY PINK FLOYD! :) hehehehehe

[elke]

2) The young will take over, wipe out the hardliners and the reforms and go for an ultra-reform government that seperate Religon and democracy. Then all the islamic laws will be taken off and the new IRANIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM WOULD BE "MONEY" BY PINK FLOYD! hehehehehe

I can think of worse Anthems than Pink Floyd "Money" for a country to have... Think about it: historically, the higher the standard of living, the less political instability in a country.

[Pushtak18]

elke,


thats true....but this is the 21st century...back when there was wealth but instability, Iran had no help. People always saw Iran as a beutiful monarchy of the Shas. But never saw the torture and despair people were going through. That is why Ayatollah Succeeded so well. For the average iranian, they wanted to be more helped.


I think if Ayatollah would never have done what he done, than:

A) the peace process would have been over in 1990....
B) Less caualties in the Lebanese Civil war
C) More open understandment of the west in the Islamic world.


Iran today, if was to change to reform would make a strong impression. Israel for example, when we had diplomatic relations with them, we fixed there agriculutre and made them 3 technological bridges :) This is a show of respect and unity :)

:)

[elke]

Originally posted by Pushtak18
elke,


thats true....but this is the 21st century...back when there was wealth but instability, Iran had no help. People always saw Iran as a beutiful monarchy of the Shas. But never saw the torture and despair people were going through. That is why Ayatollah Succeeded so well. For the average iranian, they wanted to be more helped.


I think if Ayatollah would never have done what he done, than:

A) the peace process would have been over in 1990....
B) Less caualties in the Lebanese Civil war
C) More open understandment of the west in the Islamic world.


Iran today, if was to change to reform would make a strong impression. Israel for example, when we had diplomatic relations with them, we fixed there agriculutre and made them 3 technological bridges :) This is a show of respect and unity :)

:)

Agreed. It is the distribution of wealth, rather than the country's total wealth. Call me a dreamer, but I still believe that one day soon Iran is going to become Persia again, and go back to their tradition of being the light of the Muslim world.

[MichaelC]

originally posted by Take-0
__________________________________________________ ____________
LOL

higher ups of the government? in Cuba i posted in Guatemala not, there i had to miss your poetic contributions to this forum.
by the way i was never in South America.
i will not sleep one second less if you think i'm an Arab who has never been outside his refugee-camp and by the way you said as well that i was victot, and Belgium, and northlander, etc.
yes i'm all the same person and i have an incredible imagination, mr. who speaks fluently mandarin, latin, spanish, russian, danish, ...

by the way skogan is one the newest of my creations __________________________________________________ ____________

I don’t know about Victot (will have to refamiliarize myself with his offerings) but can easily believe that you post as belgium and northlander. I notice that in your list of fluency you did not include English, but then, those of us who read your ramblings are well aware of your shortcomings in this area.

As for claiming to post as Skogan, I am sure that many, like myself, were compelled to wipe down their monitor screens after reading that one. I spewed coffee right out of my nose in the contortive response that was elicited from me upon reading that claim.

Skogan has exhibited an unstinting brilliance, a most capable literacy, and a solid grasp of world events in every post. These are not attributes that anyone would ever attribute to your own contributions.

Do not be fooled by the legend “trial membership” beneath my name. I may not have posted until today, but I have monitored this site for some time, as is my wont in cyberspace, before intruding with my own comments.

[Vic]

I suggest that takeo is Mediocrates or L@mplighter in disguise ;)

[Pushtak18]

elke,


your dream seems very surreal and true. I think that Iran wants change but there forces that make it impossible. Having the whole judiciary and parliment a hardline is very hard.


Iran is not like many other Middle Easter states. For one, they are not arab. They are indo-euroasians. Iran also got alot of natrual resources. Now you minus a regime and have a state that can produce alot of oil and is democratic. Now that i like.

Today, Iran is changing. Hopefully for the better. There is alot of things the government of Tehran is doing that i can't possibly imagine, such as fund terrorism, build weapons of mass destruction and let 4 million Iranians become drug addicts!!!

This is the tastse the hardliners need! :(

and i don't really like it!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Vic
I suggest that takeo is Mediocrates or L@mplighter in disguise ;)

:mad: I am my own troll :mad: now back the **** off

[takeo]

actually Iran under the Shah-regime was not paradise nor a dream, never was. It may have been better for the West and Israel, but not for its civilians.
if so the Islamic revolution would have never happened.
Iran is indeed very different from Arab countries, but having indo-european ancestry (Pakistan for example, or Armenia) and natural wealth (saoudi Arabia) is certainly no garantee for democracy.
there is no such thing as ayatollah Khatami.
the Iranian regime may still be die-hard it is going in the good direction, hardliners get less power in parliament and the judiciary every year.

"I don’t know about Victot (will have to refamiliarize myself with his offerings) but can easily believe that you post as belgium and northlander. I notice that in your list of fluency you did not include English, but then, those of us who read your ramblings are well aware of your shortcomings in this area. "

Thanks, so because my shortcomings in this area are so shocking, i admit that my current frenglish would never get me a Nobel-price for literature (unless translated of course :p ), I might propose that we will continue this discussion in French, this couldn't possibly be a problem for a person with such capable literacy as yours.


"Skogan has exhibited an unstinting brilliance, a most capable literacy, and a solid grasp of world events in every post. These are not attributes that anyone would ever attribute to your own contributions. "

you are right, skogan is more brilliant than i am, beyond comparison, but of course he's American and i'm just a lousy European. Also i don't have his rich experience

"Do not be fooled by the legend “trial membership” beneath my name. I may not have posted until today, but I have monitored this site for some time, as is my wont in cyberspace, before intruding with my own comments."

yes, and i have to admit, your first post was a display of all that knowledge you acquired for years reading and monitoring this forum, it shows!

you can't fool me lomplighter :cool: you can try to be civilised but that special mark of yours is indisguisable.

vic and mediocrates seem to be original but i know negev and aid are wandering around somewhere on this forum in disguise. i think as well that justpad and kaufner are one and the same person.

If i'm a creation of lomplighter he would have some serious schisophrenic problems.

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo

vic and mediocrates seem to be original
I wouldn't be so sure about it :D


If i'm a creation of lomplighter he would have some serious schisophrenic problems.
or just displaying creative genius :)

[Vic]

...perhaps it's just NewsGuy and ibrodsky all of the time.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic
...perhaps it's just NewsGuy and ibrodsky all of the time.

So which one are you? :)

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
So which one are you? :)
Who knows? After all, what human being can be sure about his or her identity anyway? Aren't we all of us just corns of sand in the infinite universe? I think I've been posting under the name of cerulean here, but I'm not so sure about it either anymore, you know... ;)

[elke]

Oh, this is getting way too deep... Next thing we know, this computer will become "virtual"... :)

[takeo]

I'm sure this site is infiltrated by secret agents or even double agents :eek:
don't we all have some serious identity problems? :D
I'm also sure one of the participants is actually Daniel Pipes, i suppose it's newsguy, but i'm not sure...

[Pushtak18]

Danielpipes is newsguy?? but he isn't from Philly, is he?

[takeo]

yea, but who says newsguy if from LA?

[Vic]

Take a look at this, as well as at the articles linked to on the page:

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/May/Israel/index.html

It is a magazine of Iranian exiles, not published in Iran proper of course, but still I find the variety of opinion quite impressive

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
Oh, this is getting way too deep... Next thing we know, this computer will become "virtual"... :)
Aren't we all of us mere products of our computers' imaginations?

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic

Aren't we all of us mere products of our computers' imaginations?

Is it real, or Memorex? :D

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic

Aren't we all of us mere products of our computers' imaginations?

We're all emanations of the collective unconscious. (Sorry, a temporary New Age Jungian blip here.)

Back on topic, the Iranian magazine you mentioned has a number of interesting articles - in particular this one at

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/May/Terror2/index.html

which has the subhead "Israel WON real estate in a fair and square war started by Arabs."

[Pushtak18]

cerulean,


I have the pleasure to talk with a couple of Western Iranians/Perisans who live in places like America, Canada, England, France, germany, Austria, Argentina and even Israel and they are high supporters of the west and Israel.

Back in 1967, Israel had diplomacy with Iran, eventhough it wasn't full and high level diplomacy it was good diplomacy at that time and perhaps in the future it would evolve into something more terrirfic.

So anyways, in 1967 Iran congradulated Israel on the 6 day war as saying "israel won a war with strength and curizma and have beaten the unbeaten" or something like that...... which was pretty good from a frined :)

Iranians who are living abroad are crucial and there is just a low majority who supports the palestinians. Most don't like politics and religon and are very instrumental when talking about the future of Iran.

:) There very nice people too!

[takeo]

Some Iranians living in the West support Israel, however not a majority. The Iranians in general don't like Arabs, in Iran as well.
In Iran few people if any support Israel, even the ones who hate or criticise the regime have only harsh words for Israel.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
Some Iranians living in the West support Israel, however not a majority. The Iranians in general don't like Arabs, in Iran as well.
In Iran few people if any support Israel, even the ones who hate or criticise the regime have only harsh words for Israel.

How do you know that the majority of Iranians living in the West don't support Israel? Has there been a poll? As far as the people in Iran are concerned, again, I wouldn't bet that they would tell you what they actually think. In addition, since this conflict does not affect the Iranians directly, propaganda is much more powerful on them: they don't know all the facts, and base their opinions solely on what they hear.

[Pushtak18]

elke,


you are correct! Yes, when you look at the TV and it shows Iran, than you'd see perfectly that Iran is hostile to Israel in many forms. One with propoganda, hate and ofcourse what happened and is going on in Lebanon.

Most of the Iranians who live in the west and very open minded. Comparing the Arabs, many Iranians had a choice and as well, they did when there was a revolution. The choice was this: "Whats more important Religon (Islam) or nationality (persian/Farsi/Asian/Iranian, etc...)???" and many chose nationality, which they feel is far more important to them. They love there ancestrial days, there baylonia era and there roots, food, and culture. Unlike the Arab, which there culutre runs for what they've done in the past 40 years with Arabic Nationalism, Iranians tend to be more soft on that. That is why in Iran today Jews are represented in Tehran gov't but 1 person in the cabinent there. Jews in Iran, although they are treated harshly are respected people and many are well eductated and belive there truly part of the Iranian culture, because they have been natives of what is now Iran for nearly 4000 years...thats almost 2500 years before the rise of islam in that area!

Plus you can't deny Iranian food taste so good. IN dizengoff st. in tel aviv this guy owns a Iranian take out resturant...whenever im there, i can't deny this guy..he already knows my face!

[elke]

I like Iranian food too. We have a Persian restaurant not far from my job in NYC, and I took my boss and a couple of guests there for a business lunch. Believe it or not, they ordered Baked Salmon and steak! Americans, I ask you! :D

[Pushtak18]

elke,


mmmm sounds good! I had baked wild rice and lambs...and it tated good...funny...but good :)

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by elke
Believe it or not, they ordered Baked Salmon and steak! Americans, I ask you! :D
LoL!

:D

In NYC my favorite Persian restaurant is a kosher one called Kolbeh.

In L.A., great Persian restaurants are everywhere, but there is one called Sheherazade that is superb.

Just don't order baked salmon... Go for a nice Chelo Kabob Barg with a side of Dolmeh. ;)

[elke]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

LoL!

:D

In NYC my favorite Persian restaurant is a kosher one called Kolbeh.

In L.A., great Persian restaurants are everywhere, but there is one called Sheherazade that is superb.

Just don't order baked salmon... Go for a nice Chelo Kabob Barg with a side of Dolmeh. ;)

I believe, that's the one I was talking about! It's on 38th Street, between 6th and 7th Avenues, I think (sorry, it's been a little while since I've been there).

[takeo]

There are around 20 Persian restaurants in Paris, i tried 4 of them, and they really serve food as in Iran, yummy, but not for the same prices :(
OK, i presume most Iranians living in the West don't support israel, because all the ones i know don't.
You are right about the propaganda in Iran (no lies but partial, incomplete truth, the same as in israeli press) which influences their image of Israel, but people are not afraid to voice their opinion, they can be pityless for the regime.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
There are around 20 Persian restaurants in Paris, i tried 4 of them, and they really serve food as in Iran, yummy, but not for the same prices :(
OK, i presume most Iranians living in the West don't support israel, because all the ones i know don't.
You are right about the propaganda in Iran (no lies but partial, incomplete truth, the same as in israeli press) which influences their image of Israel, but people are not afraid to voice their opinion, they can be pityless for the regime.

If they get anything like what I have seen on some of the Islamic websites, they get a full dose of lies, along with the half-truths.

I don't really know how many Persian restaurants are in NYC. Kolbeh is actually low to medium-priced, for NY.

[takeo]

for NYC, where a normal not extra-ordinary meal in a restaurant costs around 50$ per person :(
in Iran an excessive delicious meal will cost you around 2$.
I don't know which Islamic websites you saw, but iranians know exactly all the violations of israel, without exaggeration, and the suffering of the palestinians, almost daily.
They never get to see the israeli side of the truth, as well as israeli never get to see the palestinian side of the truth.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
for NYC, where a normal not extra-ordinary meal in a restaurant costs around 50$ per person :(
in Iran an excessive delicious meal will cost you around 2$.
I don't know which Islamic websites you saw, but iranians know exactly all the violations of israel, without exaggeration, and the suffering of the palestinians, almost daily.
They never get to see the israeli side of the truth, as well as israeli never get to see the palestinian side of the truth.

Yes, last time I was there (about 3 years ago), Kolbeh meals cost $5-$10 for appetizers, and $15-$25 for main course; and about $5 for dessert (my boss at that time always insisted that I have dessert :) . Needless to say, I REALLY liked him! :D )

"Iranians know exactly all the violations of Israel, without exaggeration?" I hope so, but how do you know that? How do you know what their newscasts tell them?

In reading Israeli press, it sure seems that Israelis do indeed get the "Palestinian side of the truth". I don't have sufficient Hebrew to get the original news, but there are plenty of direct translations, and I know plenty of people who do know adequate Hebrew to verify that the translations match the original.

Besides, the proof is in the pudding: there is a strong liberal movement in Israel, Palestinians go to the Israeli Beit Selem to cite the human rights abuses. As Beit Selem notes, since they are an Israeli organization, they concentrate on Israeli actions. Where is the corresponding, strong, Palestinian human rights movement that cites the Palestinian human rights abuses? Even when they are cited, there isn't - and never was, even when PNA was "armed and dangerous" - an enforcement mechanism. Regardless of why or how the Palestinian informants become "Israeli collaborators", their fate is gruesome and constitutes human rights abuse on a completely different scale from that Israel has ever perpetrated.

[takeo]

"Yes, last time I was there (about 3 years ago), Kolbeh meals cost $5-$10 for appetizers, and $15-$25 for main course; and about $5 for dessert (my boss at that time always insisted that I have dessert . Needless to say, I REALLY liked him! ) "

my boss never does that, i think it's because i have the wrong sex :D

"I hope so, but how do you know that? How do you know what their newscasts tell them? "

i had discussions with iranians who know english and asked them what they know about the conflict. i can't read or understand Farsi.

the israeli press is mostly very biased, such important newspapers as the Jerusalem Post will unlikely post an article complaining about excessive israeli use of violence for example.

"Besides, the proof is in the pudding: there is a strong liberal movement in Israel, Palestinians go to the Israeli Beit Selem to cite the human rights abuses. As Beit Selem notes, since they are an Israeli organization, they concentrate on Israeli actions. Where is the corresponding, strong, Palestinian human rights movement that cites the Palestinian human rights abuses? Even when they are cited, there isn't - and never was, even when PNA was "armed and dangerous" - an enforcement mechanism. Regardless of why or how the Palestinian informants become "Israeli collaborators", their fate is gruesome and constitutes human rights abuse on a completely different scale from that Israel has ever perpetrated. "

that 's not true, the faith of millions of palestinians, being locked up in refugee-camps, loosing everything, bulldozered exiled, 1000's of palestinians murdered, is not comparable to the share of misery israeli people have endured.
That's why in Israel, a more or less wealthy society, where only few people are daily confronted with war (on the contrary to almost all palestinians), there is more place for dissent and moderation.
But most palestinians have recognised israel and want peace with it, but they support however military actions untill that peace is achieved, pretty much as the majority of israeli people.

[Pushtak18]

Originally Posted by Takeo

that 's not true, the faith of millions of palestinians, being locked up in refugee-camps, loosing everything, bulldozered exiled, 1000's of palestinians murdered, is not comparable to the share of misery israeli people have endured.
That's why in Israel, a more or less wealthy society, where only few people are daily confronted with war (on the contrary to almost all palestinians), there is more place for dissent and moderation.
But most palestinians have recognised israel and want peace with it, but they support however military actions untill that peace is achieved, pretty much as the majority of israeli people.


Most Palestinians do not recognize Israel. On Paper, Arafat recognizes Israel, but he waives our right to live in almost every speech him makes. Contrary, Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not recognize Israel and will use every violent means it has, even after occupation to hurt civilians. Yet, in your other posts you made in these forums, you ecnourage Islamic Jihad to become part of the Palestinian Cabinet?

Seems like you encourage more violence and dispair, even though you live in France and pretty much have nothing to do with the conflict...smart thinking......

1000 dead?!??!?! you know, there's Israelis who died too...many of the dead in which you countred are people who got killed in the crossfire, and by accident!! Did you ever see once where Israeli Army kills and never apologizes if its an accident and then sets up an investigation? It happens alot! Whereas, your friends at Hamas and Islamic Jihad blow up people dilberately to derail perhaps a cease fire, a mission by a foreign politician or just to damadge what is now there.

And if you think 1000 dead is alot, why do you ignorant self-fish mut go to Colubmia...Every year 4500+ people get killed? why? the same reason that is happening or happened in Lebanon. Yet, you turn a blind eye to that? why is that? Why is it that you ignore that same facts and point to one direction? How much money the columbians pay you to do this? or better yet....how much ounces of coke did they offer you! :D

Other than that, Iranians are very nice people. I don't know which Iranians you talked to, but i had a chance to talk with some and many want change. They don't like Arabs, and they feel that they want the 1950-1979 era where they can live free and express freedome and once again be in the puplic-community eye.

I would love to see you open free speech, when youe whole country is run by Ayatollahs from nowhere else but hell!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
1000's of palestinians murdered, is not comparable to the share of misery israeli people have endured.

It's true. The Israeli innocent victims of Arab massacres are not at all comparable to the Palestinian perpetrators.

But I am dismayed by the poor Palestinians murdered by their own Palestinian Authority, slaughtered and hung to die like dogs in their Arab towns. I am very sorry that the world stands silent as the Palestinians butcher each other mercilessly. Here are some photos of the attrocities:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3054#post3054

and


http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3056#post3056

[takeo]

this is a tread about iran

some funny quotes from pushtak: "They don't like Arabs, and they feel that they want the 1950-1979 era where they can live free and express freedome and once again be in the puplic-community eye. "

I agree the current regime, or at least the conservative faction, is despisable, but describing the 1950-1970 period as a period where people can express freedom shows how far your bias reaches.
the Shah-police was based upon the spanish police under Franco, and anyone dissenting with the Shah had some pretty rough times in "free" Iran, maybe not worse than today, but certainly not much better either.

about colombia, sure many people die in colombia, but does that make the israeli actions any better???
i think in Ruanda even more people died, so it means Colombians can just continue?

yes some people get killed by accident, but don't tell me that all those palestinian deaths are "collateral damage"! many deaths were on purpose, against people armed with nothing but stones in many cases, or worse armless people.

i never ever said that hamas and islamic jihad were my friends, don't twist my words, i once said that reconciliation is possible if they change their policy (which is unlikely)

actually the israeli are the perpetrators of occupation and etnic cleansing.
you don't seem to have much compassion with the many innocent people murdered by the idf, but the ones who cooperated with israel for hard cash are "poor palestinians"

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,

Listen up, you french rep scelion!! Don't insult my threads!! And don't poke fun at them.
There was issues in Iran and those issues were pretty bad, but there was a difference of change between the time Shah came into power and when Shah fled. I think that in perspective, the Iranian people would accept Shah once again. You can insult a monarchy that sometimes doesn't go so well, but like you and you sick pedophile mind, you accept Ayatollahs to run your country. You love the fact Ayatollahs do that. And in just a fair talk, in Iran, if you got money you can do whatever you want. You can rape people, you can hang, butcher, maim, cleanse, insalve and torture people. I think that Iranians want change as well as the Palestininas, but people like you seem to have a twisted way of dealing with people.
No offence, it people like you that find themselves lashed and lynched in the end!!!!!!! FOOL!!!!

Israeli don't commit anything!!! The Columbians die each die for Cocaine that is bought by you french and the west. Since its coming to your shores (and in french spekaing going to the Islamic/Arab mobs) i assume you have some responsibility. Instead of focusing on 1 issues which is the Israeli-Palestinian issue, i suggest you also look at the Columbian issue or Rawanda or even the Syrian issue.
You seem to put alot of your lies and ******** on things you don't know!

Out of maybe 1000 people that died because your little Jihads, and Inifhada's, i would say maybe a good 2% died on purpose or of targeted killings. The rest died in the crossfire, by accident, because they asked for it, and by there own people. You never stand up and have enough balls to go tell me that Israel will just go in and take out 40,000 people in a West Bank city for the fun of it! You know thats not true, but in your case you try to make it so forth!

Well, Takeo...If you support hamas and Jihad, especailly when you live in your sick-minded French country, and have no power to tell who wants to run and not. In a world-community sense that you brought up. You forcefully expect Israel to be friendly and do all sorts of things in the process. How can you want Palestinians to be World-friendly when they have US-list and EU-list Terror organization running in the PA seats. Don't let them! We're not Lebanon....The Civil war in Lebanon is over, yet it didn't feel like Ending!! There is still issues, Syria still deprives Lebanese people. There is an outcry, no one is listening, and the south is runned by pedophilic-cocaine addicts!!!!!! Is this the kinda palestine you dreamed of???

I am the IDF as well have alot of compassion with the people who lost there life in the crossfire or by accident. My heart goes out to them. I feel that they don't deserve to die! But due to there corrupted Regime, which wants everyone dead, thats just the way it is!!!!

By the time Arafat gets Jerusalem, all of palestine would be a funeral home!
SICK SICK MAN!!!!!! DID YOU HAVE BREAKFAST WITH HIM??

[takeo]

I ADMIT

i'm a rep scelion (whatever that means)
the shah-regime was a freedom-loving democracy
i am in favor of the ayatollah khomeini (next to osama bin laden), i have his poster in my room, i adore fundamentalist regimes
i have tortured and lynched people myself
France is responsible for the war in Colombia
I am ignorant, you however should receive the Nobel-price for peace ( together with Ariel)
we should discuss the ruandan and colombian issues on israel forum

Palestinians were killed because they asked for it or by accident, all reports about palestinians killed on purpose are vicious lies.

Israel's presence in the westbank and gaza is purely self-defense

france is a sick-minded country

i said on this forum that i support hamas and Jihad

syria is occupying libanon , it are vicious lies that the libanese president invited them in. israel on the contrary liberated libanon, the libanese are very gratefull for that.

all palestinians are terrorists (which is probably the reason why there are no innocent victims among palestinians...)

south libanese are pedophil cocain-addicts.

Arafat is responsible for all evil since the day he was born.

i had breakfast with Arafat

[Pushtak18]

Thats good talking about a gruzini russian, who lived all his life in freedome and spades in France!

Keep on going!
the bus never stops here!

[elke]

I think, he meant "rapscallion", which is actually a very expressive term. Look it up! :)

Btw, Takeo cannot be "Gruzini" (Georgian), his family is from the Urals. But you are right, much of his information is erroneous or at least stilted, and it's difficult for him to understand where we are coming from, partially because of where he grew up.

[takeo]

hey it was not in my dictionnary! French dictionnaries are not what they used to be at the times of Diderot...

I know "Gruzini", we call them the Georgian Jews in France who seem to be involved in illegal traphicking. I have been to Georgia, wonderfull country, but very racist people against Russians and Jews and actually anyone not Georgian. (ok, it's just my impression, i whave to write down my words carefully, everything i write can and will be used against me on this forum, while others have no problem making "stilted" or insulting posts) The country is at ruins and Shevarnadze must be the worst president ever...

"partially because of where he grew up."

what do you mean by that?
my views, as anyones views, are based on my education and my observations and readings, as anyone else's.
it's not because i have a different point of view that it is "erroneous".

[elke]

Hey, watch it! My mother was born in Tbilisi and she can be dangerous! (just kidding, she is about 4'6'' - or 112cm tall and very friendly. Moreover, she is not really "Gruzini", she was just born there :D )

It's not your views that are erroneous - please re-read - it's some of the information you are basing them on.

The information acquired through reading, talking to people, education, etc. is "processed" and interpreted through the person's own lense, which to a large degree, depends on the person's experience. You grew up in a situation where you were free to express yourself, had access to information you wanted to access, and apparently have not experienced the scourge of anti-semitism. This is actually a "classic" prescription for a Jewish person who may not believe in Zionism. Pushtak grew up in different circumstances, and I in yet more different. Pushtak and I have experienced things in our lives that have made us very susceptible to Zionism. That's what I was referring to.

You are right, everything you write can - and will be used against you, not just here but also in life, and especially in the Academe (you are a historical researcher, right? This is good practice then...) Of course, you can always take the Fifth Amendment (...You have the right to remain silent, anything you say may, and will be used against you in the Court of Law, etc. etc.) ;) .

"Rapscallion" is a... well, person with the chutzpah, shall we say... :D

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,


Me nor Elke have anything against what you say, but when you are in a university or high class kinda thing or even giving a lecture, it can really damadge your carrer, especailly when your a historian. Many good Historians lost there carrer when they denounce, condone or refuse to acknowledge good historic backrounds and events such as Hitler, relgion, denying holocausts and pogroms and progressing rhetoric.

If you want to get scotch free go to some Lebanese Univeristy and blab all the **** you want, but not here in the free world.

I think you need to know facts first, and maybe if you don't actually agree with the Encarta Encyclopedia or any other forms of facts, you can always turn to people who witnessed it first hand! :)

[takeo]

I see ,well i think/hope i'm not such a person

"My mother was born in Tbilisi and she can be dangerous"

I see... so that's why you don't work :p

"The information acquired through reading, talking to people, education, etc. is "processed" and interpreted through the person's own lense, which to a large degree, depends on the person's experience. You grew up in a situation where you were free to express yourself, had access to information you wanted to access, and apparently have not experienced the scourge of anti-semitism. This is actually a "classic" prescription for a Jewish person who may not believe in Zionism. Pushtak grew up in different circumstances, and I in yet more different. Pushtak and I have experienced things in our lives that have made us very susceptible to Zionism. That's what I was referring to. "

I think pushtak grew up in a country where being Jewish was an advantage, not a handicap (in France or the US it is neither of both, it are no racial states), so he may be a bad example. He was susceptible to zionism because he lives in a zionist country.
In your case, i can believe that having experienced anti-semitism (even in subjective forms as in the Soviet-union) can be a cause for becoming zionist.
Still some people who have never experienced any kind of oppression are sometimes zionist, as people on this forum, so not all people become zionist because they have suffered anti-semitism.
my grandparents however, who have experienced the cruelty of WWII, and the murder of many nephews and uncles, aunts, etc. by the nazi's, have never become zionist, even when they had sufficient information about Israel trough my parents.

But you are right that zionism was influenced by anti-semitism in Eastern Europe in the 19th century, and that in general people not well informed and oppressed are more susceptible for radical solutions.







"You are right, everything you write can - and will be used against you, not just here but also in life, and especially in the Academe (you are a historical researcher, right? This is good practice then...) Of course, you can always take the Fifth Amendment (...You have the right to remain silent, anything you say may, and will be used against you in the Court of Law, etc. etc.) . "

I will be a professional historical researcher, so far only as a student, combined with another job.
you are right about that, but why can people insult me (and my country) without consequences, while i have to be very carefull what to write?
apparently the Court of Law on this forum is rather biased...
i have to agree that you are one of the nicer ones, even if you don't agree with me, you remain respectfull and open-minded.

[takeo]

"Me nor Elke have anything against what you say, but when you are in a university or high class kinda thing or even giving a lecture, it can really damadge your carrer, especailly when your a historian. Many good Historians lost there carrer when they denounce, condone or refuse to acknowledge good historic backrounds and events such as Hitler, relgion, denying holocausts and pogroms and progressing rhetoric. "

yes, that's right, because for example denying the Holocaust is un-historic, because there are plenty of evidences that the holocaust occured. also defending Hitler is not allowed here.
but other than that limits, historians should have the free hand to defend whatever thesis they come up with, as long as they use strong arguments to defend it.

"If you want to get scotch free go to some Lebanese Univeristy and blab all the **** you want, but not here in the free world. "

so that's what free speech in israel is like?

"I think you need to know facts first, and maybe if you don't actually agree with the Encarta Encyclopedia or any other forms of facts, you can always turn to people who witnessed it first hand! "

it seems you should learn a few facts too, before acusing me of ignoring some facts.

[elke]

I am going back to work day after tomorrow, Friday (I had a herniated disc surgery, that's why I have been home). I am rather looking forward to it: I like my job and I miss New York (not to mention my Starbucks coffee and lemon scone :) ).

US is funny that way: depending on where you are, and who you talk to, being Jewish can be either an asset or a liability, - or neither. It's individual. There are very strong laws against discrimination, and there is no identity card to tell anyone whether or not I am Jewish anyway, so it's certainly nothing like Russia. But if you are stupid enough to tell someone who is anti-semitic, some ugly things can happen.

There are different reasons why people become Zionist. It's like why some people are "liberal" and others "conservative". Depending on the personal experience, education, and thinking patterns, different worldviews are arrived at by different individuals, even based on the same facts. It is always tempting to think that someone disagrees with you because they don't have the "correct information", but much of the time it's simply different interpretation of the same information.

You are not the only one who has to write carefully. We all do. Those who don't, end up getting "ripped apart". Come to think of it, everyone gets that sooner or later: there are enough opposing views on this forum to assure that.

Anyway, this is an Iran thread...we digressed significantly...

[Pushtak18]

takeo,


I don't hate you, i rather like you! Honestly! If i didn't i would have been a little pushy. And don't critisize this forum. I am new to it and i want to make friends and not foes. I like you, your a nice guy, nice, but odd...

What i meant by un-historic things is that there are many historians in the past who have denied things that got them in trouble. There are tons and tons of cases in France in USA, In england, sweden, you name it, where Professors and other high intellectuals questions a major significant thing in history such as the holocaust or condoned a major evil power that there own government might not accept.
These people got fired, lost there reputation....they never got arrested but they did get fined and perhaps got a couple of fatwas thrown at them here and there (Salman Rushdie to name a few...)

I don't think you should go out of your conclusion and expect that Zionism is bad and rate Israel as not a jewish, nor Democratic country, buy just a Zionist country. What does Zionist mean to you?

Zionist for me means an opprotunity or better yet and new future. For many people, who are jewish, we never had seen any rights. Jews, wherever they were..in the Arab, East/West Europe or even in the states and around the world have faced Persecution and racism. Its not a phenomena. Zionisms is the rights of jews. And one of the rights was to establish a homeland anywhere in the world, didn't exactly mean Israel, but to have state! Our own, where we can pray and worship and make our own rules and have our own laws and own our own lands, and especially have our own dreams!

Zionism never ever stated that they want to occupy and remove people from other lands. When the forefathers of Zionist sat together in Geneva at the late 1800's..they didn't want to wage war, they just wanted a homeland for jewish people. It can be small, but its our homeland and we can have freedoms there and live in harmony.

To be quiet honest with you, and i am telling you this by the bottom of my heart......If Zionist were to imagine that in another 100 years after there first assembly that Jews are still deprive, we occupy other people and we are inflicted with violence due to the reason of our win, policy and determantion, than i don't think they would have decided to create a zionist movement.

But Zionist movement doesn't always have to do with a country. It also have to do with many other issues! Did you know that many times in Europe a Jew had less rights than the average human being? did you know that we couldn't own lands and in some places we had curfews... We also didn't have a right to learn medicine and practice it, but zionism, which is our dream and our future changed it! It gave us the will and power to make hospitals like Mount Sinai which was a private hospital run by jews, who wanted to help and cure. That was the zionist dream...the make a hospital. And you know whats the most touching and emotional part about all the hospital-zionist thingy? Is that we allow and give rights to EVERYONE, no matter who he or she is. We let everyone come in to our hospital and get treated for. I went in mount sinai on my vacation to Boston, and i saw doctors there who were chinese, black, spanish, i saw people of ALL orginings in the hospital getting treated for. Not just 1. That is our dream, to make and help others.

And i think we truly did. If it wasn't for the Zionist/Jewish Movement than i would think there would never be a Black movement, a Feminist Movement, a chinese movement, a Gay movmement and even an Arab Movement in the world!! And remember, there was a Arab movement in the states, who made themseleves heard....Now the ADL (Arab-Deformation Leauge) watches out for your so called "ZIONIST CONSPIRATORS" and others who make movies like True Lies and other stuff and insult the Arabs..

But holy...They were good movies!!!!


But on any account, Zionist is what i am! I think that zionist helped me look at myself and be proud and say to myself i am a jew. I am fed up with you saying that just because i am from Israel, means i have an advantage. I don't! I earned my advantage. Why is it not fair for someone to work hard to get where he is? It kinda sounds your listening to Karl Max's theory on COMMUNISM.......and yet, your parents fled USSR from it to give you a better life in France. Be Thankful!!!
I think that Israel has given its people the opprotunity to be successful! Israel does not steal the money from its citizens or controls it. People have business and have firms and corporations and at best Israel helps them. One of the things that seperates Israel and the Arab world is FREE DEMOCRATIC DEMOCRACY SYSTEM. Even if you saw in Saudi Arabia that they drive BMB and Mercedes and out of nowhere in the desery they have this resort that is made out of 200 million dollars of marble floors, it still doesn't represent them. There is another side to it. Israel give the opprotunity to its people and its citizens. And we are a multicultural country, we have Arab citizens, and Arab-Jewish Citizens (like me!!), and people from all around the world..... infact, my next door neighbour is from Paraguay, my driving instructor is from Yugoslavia, my girlfriend is from Australia, my Dentist is from America, the guy who i buy a newspaper and cigarettes from daily is from Ethopia and my parents are mixed (one side is Russian, the other is Syrian....) So, you see, everyday i live in a multi-cutlral enviorment.

And if i have a choice on who to have in my country or not, it is my choice. I think that if everyone wants to solve the Palestinian refugees than the whole world has to be 1 and help them, instead of being un-focused and biased. I did the calculation and i think that if only 75 countries participate than each would have between 50-60,000 palestinian immigrants coming to there country.

Israel would accept that much, even more! BUt not insane numbers like 200,000!

KAPPISH?

[takeo]

"I am going back to work day after tomorrow, Friday (I had a herniated disc surgery, that's why I have been home). I am rather looking forward to it: I like my job and I miss New York (not to mention my Starbucks coffee and lemon scone ). "

I miss New York too, I like the anonimity of the megapolis, but it's way too expensive to stay more than a couple of days. Where do you live now? (ps: my mother has hernia too, i know it's painfull :( )


"US is funny that way: depending on where you are, and who you talk to, being Jewish can be either an asset or a liability, - or neither. It's individual. There are very strong laws against discrimination, and there is no identity card to tell anyone whether or not I am Jewish anyway, so it's certainly nothing like Russia. But if you are stupid enough to tell someone who is anti-semitic, some ugly things can happen. "

Here it's exactly the same

"There are different reasons why people become Zionist. It's like why some people are "liberal" and others "conservative". Depending on the personal experience, education, and thinking patterns, different worldviews are arrived at by different individuals, even based on the same facts. It is always tempting to think that someone disagrees with you because they don't have the "correct information", but much of the time it's simply different interpretation of the same information. "

OK, i agree

"You are not the only one who has to write carefully. We all do. Those who don't, end up getting "ripped apart". Come to think of it, everyone gets that sooner or later: there are enough opposing views on this forum to assure that. "

yes, but my view is rather in the minority here, which makes it more vulnerable...

"Anyway, this is an Iran thread...we digressed significantly..."

absolutely, how did we change subject?



"I don't hate you, i rather like you! Honestly! If i didn't i would have been a little pushy. And don't critisize this forum. I am new to it and i want to make friends and not foes. I like you, your a nice guy, nice, but odd... "

Well, thanks, i would like to say about you too, some people on this forum are vicious some are OK.



"What does Zionist mean to you? "

it is a nationalist idea according to the 19th century national idea, one country-one people. In reality however that idea had as a fatal consequence, in both europe and the rest of the world, that people NOT belonging to the main etnic group, became discriminated or worse in the new national state.

"Zionist for me means an opprotunity or better yet and new future. For many people, who are jewish, we never had seen any rights. Jews, wherever they were..in the Arab, East/West Europe or even in the states and around the world have faced Persecution and racism. Its not a phenomena. Zionisms is the rights of jews. And one of the rights was to establish a homeland anywhere in the world, didn't exactly mean Israel, but to have state! Our own, where we can pray and worship and make our own rules and have our own laws and own our own lands, and especially have our own dreams! "

OK, but why could this state not be shared with the palestinians?
Why should palestinians be the victim of that idea?
Maybe it was better to establish that state in southern argentine, where very few people lived, in stead of palestine.



"To be quiet honest with you, and i am telling you this by the bottom of my heart......If Zionist were to imagine that in another 100 years after there first assembly that Jews are still deprive, we occupy other people and we are inflicted with violence due to the reason of our win, policy and determantion, than i don't think they would have decided to create a zionist movement."

I agree, however they could have predicted it if they knew people were living in the same place, they should have known this creates problems.

"But Zionist movement doesn't always have to do with a country. It also have to do with many other issues! Did you know that many times in Europe a Jew had less rights than the average human being? did you know that we couldn't own lands and in some places we had curfews... We also didn't have a right to learn medicine and practice it, but zionism, which is our dream and our future changed it! It gave us the will and power to make hospitals like Mount Sinai which was a private hospital run by jews, who wanted to help and cure. That was the zionist dream...the make a hospital. And you know whats the most touching and emotional part about all the hospital-zionist thingy? Is that we allow and give rights to EVERYONE, no matter who he or she is. We let everyone come in to our hospital and get treated for. I went in mount sinai on my vacation to Boston, and i saw doctors there who were chinese, black, spanish, i saw people of ALL orginings in the hospital getting treated for. Not just 1. That is our dream, to make and help others. "

OK, but than why not help the people who lived in israel for 1000's of years, the palestinians?

"And i think we truly did. If it wasn't for the Zionist/Jewish Movement than i would think there would never be a Black movement, a Feminist Movement, a chinese movement, a Gay movmement and even an Arab Movement in the world!! And remember, there was a Arab movement in the states, who made themseleves heard....Now the ADL (Arab-Deformation Leauge) watches out for your so called "ZIONIST CONSPIRATORS" and others who make movies like True Lies and other stuff and insult the Arabs.. "

that's an interesting hypothese...




"But on any account, Zionist is what i am! I think that zionist helped me look at myself and be proud and say to myself i am a jew. I am fed up with you saying that just because i am from Israel, means i have an advantage. I don't! I earned my advantage. Why is it not fair for someone to work hard to get where he is? It kinda sounds your listening to Karl Max's theory on COMMUNISM.......and yet, your parents fled USSR from it to give you a better life in France. Be Thankful!!! "

they didn't fled the soviet-Union, they worked for the Russian University in Paris on a mutual contract, and after more than 15 years of working in France, being married and with children, they decided to stay.
Being Jew in israel is an advantage compared to being palestinian, won't you agree? it has nothing to do with hard work. (i agree however that hard work of jewish pioneers helped to make israel a wealthy country)

"I think that Israel has given its people the opprotunity to be successful! Israel does not steal the money from its citizens or controls it. People have business and have firms and corporations and at best Israel helps them. One of the things that seperates Israel and the Arab world is FREE DEMOCRATIC DEMOCRACY SYSTEM. Even if you saw in Saudi Arabia that they drive BMB and Mercedes and out of nowhere in the desery they have this resort that is made out of 200 million dollars of marble floors, it still doesn't represent them. There is another side to it. Israel give the opprotunity to its people and its citizens. And we are a multicultural country, we have Arab citizens, and Arab-Jewish Citizens (like me!!), and people from all around the world..... infact, my next door neighbour is from Paraguay, my driving instructor is from Yugoslavia, my girlfriend is from Australia, my Dentist is from America, the guy who i buy a newspaper and cigarettes from daily is from Ethopia and my parents are mixed (one side is Russian, the other is Syrian....) So, you see, everyday i live in a multi-cutlral enviorment. "

i agree, that israel is a multi-cultural and democratic country, yet there is one limit, you have to be Jewish to be treated equally in Israel, palestinians who lived all their life in israel are still being discriminated by many israeli people and by the system too, if not systematically; And palestinian parties are never included in the israeli government. People as newsguy exist in israel too, who think "Arabs" have no real place in Israel and should be gratefull just because they have not been etnic cleansed as all the other palestinians.

"And if i have a choice on who to have in my country or not, it is my choice. I think that if everyone wants to solve the Palestinian refugees than the whole world has to be 1 and help them, instead of being un-focused and biased. I did the calculation and i think that if only 75 countries participate than each would have between 50-60,000 palestinian immigrants coming to there country. "

Israel can have a choice who to accept in israel, 100% right, BUT israel can not make discriminatory laws based on peoples race, and even more important israel can not refuse people who lived in israel for generations. this is international human law, the basis of the post WWII-jurisdiction and human rights. At least if israel want to be respected as a truly democratic country integrated in the international community and live at peace with its neighbours.

"Israel would accept that much, even more! BUt not insane numbers like 200,000! "

if israel can accept one million of russians, it can certainly accept one million of palestinians, this offer would be compensated by lasting peace and worldwide recognition, that it is worth for israel to consider this.

[elke]

That's no fun! You just agreed with my whole post! :D

I live in Northern part of New Jersey, exactly 12 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel into Manhattan. You would think I have a short commute, but NO, it actually takes at least 25-30 minutes to get into the City, when I am lucky; and up to 1 1/2 hour when the traffic is bad.

When the Doctor found out where I work, he told me to stick around until Monday. So, Monday it is! :)

[takeo]

OK, let's fight again if you're bored, ... :D

isn't there a metro in New Jersey? (ok, to stay at topic, they build a new metro in Teheran)

i don't have any disease, so i will have to work instead of pretending working to finish my scription :(

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
That's no fun! You just agreed with my whole post! :D
Congratulations! What about a celebration?

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic

Congratulations! What about a celebration?

I know, frightening, isn't it? I must be losing my touch! :D

[Vic]

Originally posted by elke
I know, frightening, isn't it? I must be losing my touch! :D
No you are not ;) I'm almost thinking of getting T. off my ignore list :D

[Pushtak18]

Origilnally Quoted by Elke

I live in Northern part of New Jersey, exactly 12 minutes from the Lincoln Tunnel into Manhattan. You would think I have a short commute, but NO, it actually takes at least 25-30 minutes to get into the City, when I am lucky; and up to 1 1/2 hour when the traffic is bad.



Do you like in Teaneck, New Jersey? Or that county inside teaneck, i forgot? There is a nice amount of jewish poeple/community over there!

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,

About Zionism, do you think that it is not right for jews to have a homeland? OFcourse, for many years we have been known as Diaspora jews, and finally we had some land. Im not saying it is 1 land, 1 people! Remember we have Arabs living in our lands, we got many culturues living in our land. Its is a safe haven for jewish people to have freedoms, ofcourse its 19th century nationalistic idea, but it kinda matches todays critieria. Its like many would say, Hinuds have INdia, Roman Catholics have Vatican, the jews have Israel.
You never complain about Saudi Arabia and that is all totally islamic, just like Yemen, Oman and Pakistan. Infact there are maybe 10-15 countries which are ultra-islamic, and which have committed past genocides on the minoritys in order to make an ulta-populist nation?? isn't that sort of a crime, in the making?

Palestinians had the opprotunity to make there own state. They didn't! They complain about a 35 year occupation, yet, the British and the Turkish occupied them for well over 400 years to be put together not to mention the babylonians, greeks and others.....If it was there land and culture and values, than they should have had an authority. Its kinda odd that you have people who claim to be known as palestines (Philistines) and they have no connection whatso-ever. Infact, let me make this an odd point here. that the Philistian tribes that eroded in the area a few thousand years ago spoke a sort of latin-indo-eurasian language and not Arabic. Arabic as its own tribe. But none the less, the Palestinians in modern times show no remorse and respect to living side by side with Israel and even making an own state for themselves.

the Zionist inventors would never predicted Islamic backlash so far like this. I think that the refugee issue in perspective is not Israels fault! Ofcourse many did leave, but not all..... Most of the Israeli-Arabs who live inside israel were from Pre-1967 lands. Not the occupied lands, and evenso, Most of the driven were because of the Syrians who invaded and so with the Jordanian and Egyptians!

Well yea, the fact is that we want to help! but the Palestinians only 10 years ago started to make peace with us. Evenso, we helped bridge old ties. Remember, most of the economic jobs are found in Israel. Im not declaring out that these people work in the slums or something worse but they do work according to there past experience. For one, there are some teachers, there might be even doctors like in Haddassa hospital in Jerusalem, i think theres many who work in the office and theres plenty of jobs for them, including arab newspaers, theres also arab firms which they work for. So most of the opprotunitys they can find are inside Israel! I think that the world was blinded by Israel's Humantarian aide to the Palestinians. There were many times when we gave them some food and medicine back in the mid-90's and don't forget back in the 1970's at the Hasameite Kingdom (Jordan) when Palestinians were murdered many fled into West Bank and Israel because they feared.
Go into Beit Jala, and ask around theres alot of survivors!


Ok, so im not specificly talking about you and your parents here. Seems that they are educated and work in the University. But there are alot of people who don't get contracts you know! There are many who did fled, many jews, catholics and small minoritys! People did not want communism, they wanted freedom. Many left to USA, to Germany, England, Spain, Cyprus, Israel, Australia, Argentina, you name it!

Listen, there is no advantage with being a jew in israel or not. Its about choosing your life. The Palestinias are kinda the odd couple here. Look at the GNP, i know its not far fetched but did you know that the palestinians GNP is $3,800 per person??? Not much right, but they make more than people living in Yemen, Oman, Libya, Sudan and Tunisia!!!! And some of these countries are oil rich ones, yet there not making as much as the palestinians have? Intresting point there,no?
I think that we had the advantage, because we are democratic. We strive for democracy. You complain and blame israel so much for how the palestinians are today, but yet look who there leader is. a 70 year old parkinson-bent, dictator, who wears an ugly Kaffiya every single day and had a dictatorship uniform just to oppress and make everyone fear. He lies, he minipulates, he even married that blonde bitch Suha (arafat) just so he can get away from the crimes he committed in Da'mour, Lebanon. And yet, he isn't a palestinian, rather an egyptian....intresting?

I think you have to look at the real point before executing it. The Arab Israelis have some success. I know that a long time ago, they werent much, but yet times have changed and we are starting to treat them better. In fact, you go to a open air market in Tel Aviv, and you see an Arab women, all dressed in her average clothes. Do you think she would be taunted or hurt? no! I've seen many, they have the right to move and they don't get discrimnated, and yes there is discrimination, but it takes years for it to be worked on and were still working on it. Arabs have representation in all forms in the government and even when there arab foes call destruction he has a freedom of choice.
Infact, the average GNP for an Arab person in Israel is maybe $7,000 dollars short of an average Israeli, but he makes more money than anyother arab in the arab world!! (Excluding Bahrain, and Qatar).

We respect internatioanl laws, But you must look at the facts before making your conclusion. Israel is more than willing to obide by any INternational laws and we did, we have an arab population who lives in Israel and doesn't have a problem. The Palestinians have there own land. The notion of R.O.R was made as a gesturely comment in Camp David. There is no way that anyone would think that R.O.R would be brought to the forefront. Israel in the past only said to make a Palestinian state and not end up making 2 (one in Israel and one in Palestine) THis is anarchy at its best!

the 1 million russians were jews and ready to live in Israel and work in Israel. The 1 million palestinians are willing to commit destruction and a civil war. You talk so much about a lasting peace, but yet...your ingridients for a lasting peace is a civil war in the end, how can that be??? I say that israel must be willing and more than willing to accept 50-60,000 palestinians..not a million. You would damdge are economic infrastructure, make a small country more populated and invest in a civil war in a couple of years! This is insane and its not peace. Its a way to make up your so caled "If you lose up to your standard, we'll give you peace".

[elke]

No, I live in a town called West Orange. The same town where Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. His laboratory and home are now a museum, about 15 minute walk from my house.

This is a nicely mixed community: for example, my 13-year old's best friends are a Jewish kid, a Vietnamese kid, an African American kid, and a Sri Lankan Muslim. He also has an Indian, Uruguayan, and an Israeli friend. He enjoys getting his Israeli friend to tell him how to say weird, funny things in Hebrew :D My other two kids have friends with similar variety of cultural backgrounds. I encourage that, because I think it's very, very healthy for them.

If you are ever in our neck of the woods, we would love to have you over! (you too, Takeo, of course :) )

Actually, the "Founding Fathers" of Zionism had reason to believe that the indigenous population would welcome the Jews. Here is the link to the Weizmann-Faisal Agreement:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/faisaltext.html

Although the British did not keep their end of the bargain, apparently, by not granting the Arabs their independence (or the Jews, for that matter), this agreement shows that the goals of the two movements - Zionism and Arab nationalism - were not necessarily at odds.

[Pushtak18]

elke,

Thanks! :)

Im much of the American as you are Elke. I got alot of family in the USA, but most are in Boston, Florida or Calrnia!

I have visited New Jersey and its pretty nice, though i never been outside of it. I only been to Philidelphia and from my ride to Philly i had to go cross all of new jersey which was nice! I stopped at Teaneck for rest room and i remember it from then :)

i might go to America once again, hopefully next year sometime. Because my cousin is turning 13, and i think his bar-mitzva is due soon!

[Mediocrates]

And Israel and New Jersey (or Vancouver Island) are the same size too!

[takeo]

thanks for the invitation :)

"About Zionism, do you think that it is not right for jews to have a homeland? OFcourse, for many years we have been known as Diaspora jews, and finally we had some land. Im not saying it is 1 land, 1 people! Remember we have Arabs living in our lands, we got many culturues living in our land. Its is a safe haven for jewish people to have freedoms, ofcourse its 19th century nationalistic idea, but it kinda matches todays critieria. Its like many would say, Hinuds have INdia, Roman Catholics have Vatican, the jews have Israel.
You never complain about Saudi Arabia and that is all totally islamic, just like Yemen, Oman and Pakistan. Infact there are maybe 10-15 countries which are ultra-islamic, and which have committed past genocides on the minoritys in order to make an ulta-populist nation?? isn't that sort of a crime, in the making? "

it's not about religion, but about race, many, if not most jews in israel are not religious! if you want to immigrate to israel, they don't ask for your religion but for your blood-ties.



"Palestinians had the opprotunity to make there own state. They didn't! They complain about a 35 year occupation, yet, the British and the Turkish occupied them for well over 400 years to be put together not to mention the babylonians, greeks and others.....If it was there land and culture and values, than they should have had an authority. Its kinda odd that you have people who claim to be known as palestines (Philistines) and they have no connection whatso-ever. Infact, let me make this an odd point here. that the Philistian tribes that eroded in the area a few thousand years ago spoke a sort of latin-indo-eurasian language and not Arabic. Arabic as its own tribe. But none the less, the Palestinians in modern times show no remorse and respect to living side by side with Israel and even making an own state for themselves. "

you don't know history, people can change language, as the jews did too by the way; Palestinians speak arab but many of them have roots going back to before the Arab invasion, however all palestinians adopted Arab as their language. The palestinians since 1949 never had the opportunity to have an own free state.
Even before zionism palestinians were oppressed by the Brittish and Turkish.


"the Zionist inventors would never predicted Islamic backlash so far like this. I think that the refugee issue in perspective is not Israels fault! Ofcourse many did leave, but not all..... Most of the Israeli-Arabs who live inside israel were from Pre-1967 lands. Not the occupied lands, and evenso, Most of the driven were because of the Syrians who invaded and so with the Jordanian and Egyptians! "

it is not clear why they left, some say because they fled the war, others (among wich israeli scholars) say israeli army forced them, but most of the 4 million refugees have roots in pre-1967 israel and were not able to return.


"Ok, so im not specificly talking about you and your parents here. Seems that they are educated and work in the University. But there are alot of people who don't get contracts you know! There are many who did fled, many jews, catholics and small minoritys! People did not want communism, they wanted freedom. Many left to USA, to Germany, England, Spain, Cyprus, Israel, Australia, Argentina, you name it! "

I think the main reason why they fled was economic, as in most cases why people went to argentine, the us, France, etc..

"Listen, there is no advantage with being a jew in israel or not. Its about choosing your life. The Palestinias are kinda the odd couple here. Look at the GNP, i know its not far fetched but did you know that the palestinians GNP is $3,800 per person??? Not much right, but they make more than people living in Yemen, Oman, Libya, Sudan and Tunisia!!!! And some of these countries are oil rich ones, yet there not making as much as the palestinians have? Intresting point there,no? "

Lybia's GNP per person is almost the same as israel's...
Yemen and sudan are extremely poor countries, but people in Tunisia for sure live much better than the palestinians.


"I think that we had the advantage, because we are democratic. We strive for democracy. You complain and blame israel so much for how the palestinians are today, but yet look who there leader is. a 70 year old parkinson-bent, dictator, who wears an ugly Kaffiya every single day and had a dictatorship uniform just to oppress and make everyone fear. He lies, he minipulates, he even married that blonde bitch Suha (arafat) just so he can get away from the crimes he committed in Da'mour, Lebanon. And yet, he isn't a palestinian, rather an egyptian....intresting? "

he may be born in Egypt, but from Palestinian parents. Not all israeli are born in israel either.
Arafat is not a dictator, he has been elected. being democratic doesn't mean necessarily being wealthy, look at india, one of the poorest countries in the world...
if people have been occupied for many decades by another country, than this country is responsible for the economic disaster!



"I think you have to look at the real point before executing it. The Arab Israelis have some success. I know that a long time ago, they werent much, but yet times have changed and we are starting to treat them better."

ah ok, at least you recognise that they were not "israeli as any other israeli..."

" In fact, you go to a open air market in Tel Aviv, and you see an Arab women, all dressed in her average clothes. Do you think she would be taunted or hurt? no! I've seen many, they have the right to move and they don't get discrimnated, and yes there is discrimination, but it takes years for it to be worked on and were still working on it. Arabs have representation in all forms in the government and even when there arab foes call destruction he has a freedom of choice.
Infact, the average GNP for an Arab person in Israel is maybe $7,000 dollars short of an average Israeli, but he makes more money than anyother arab in the arab world!! (Excluding Bahrain, and Qatar). "

they are israeli citizens, but their parties will never be included in the government, and the discrimination is much on the subjective level, much as Jews were treated in the soviet-union, not open discrimination, but discrimination anyway.
how many israeli officers arz Arab? How many israeli topmanagers are Arab? of course they benefitted too from israel's succes, israel is not a tirth world country as most arab countries.

"We respect internatioanl laws, But you must look at the facts before making your conclusion. Israel is more than willing to obide by any INternational laws and we did, we have an arab population who lives in Israel and doesn't have a problem. The Palestinians have there own land. The notion of R.O.R was made as a gesturely comment in Camp David. There is no way that anyone would think that R.O.R would be brought to the forefront. Israel in the past only said to make a Palestinian state and not end up making 2 (one in Israel and one in Palestine) THis is anarchy at its best! "

they don't want two palestinian state, they want one palestine, and israel, with a minority of returned refugees who are treated as an etnic minority. that's what the international law wants.

"the 1 million russians were jews"

of jewish origin, exactly, that's the point, they had no other link with israel than being jewish, while the refugees have lived for generations in israel.

" and ready to live in Israel and work in Israel. The 1 million palestinians are willing to commit destruction and a civil war."

that's not true, most are willign to start a new life in israel, peacefully, if not they would not want to return to israel but ask for the destruction of israel.


"You would damdge are economic infrastructure, make a small country more populated and invest in a civil war in a couple of years! This is insane and its not peace. Its a way to make up your so caled "If you lose up to your standard, we'll give you peace"."

again, those arguments make no use, many foreign workers were attracted to israel, and many russians, so it means israel is not overpopulated and it's economy needs more people! and what's the difference (except that it would be a solution for much of israel's problems with th palestinians) between palestinians, and russians, thais, Romanians, etc. who work currently in Israel?

i think indeed arab (or palestinian) and israeli nationalism don't need to be ad odds, if only they respect eachothers claims and existance.

[elke]

Libya's GNP per person is less than 1/2 that of Israel ($8900 vs. $18,900), but more than double that of the Palestinians' (about $3800, I believe. CIA Factbook does not have the info on Palestinians, but that's what I read before).

So, by your lights the British and the French are responsible for all the disasters in Asia and Africa, and Spain - for Central and South America? Even so, - and I agree with you that the colonial powers bear some of the responsibility for the mess in these places - why is Israel the only one that's supposed to pay the piper? What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as they say.

India, the country ruled by the British for centuries, - and Pakistan, the country outright created by the British, - are on the brink of a nuclear war! French Guyana is one of the poorest nations on this planet. Not to mention that the ME crisis is also partially direct responsibility of the British. Yet everyone is sitting there, demanding that Israel do this and do that, at the expense of its existence and has the gall to call it "colonialist".

You can still come over, if you'd like! :)

[takeo]

thanks again, i will remember your invitation :)


as you said, having the same opinion 100% is boring...

ok, you might be right about Libia, i didn't know, in any case the country doesn't look much poorer than israel;

I think the british and French are responsible for quite some disasters in Asia and Africa, and the spanish are still responsible for the terrible faith of many indigenous people in latin America.
but all this was decades or centuries ago, which makes they can't be held responsible for everything occuring in those countries(but indeed for some general problems yes), while the israeli occupation is still going on.
ps: french guyana isn't one of the poorest countries on earth, it is actually the richest place in Latin America. There were referenda and people choose with an overwelming majority to stay part of france.
i don't think referenda in the occupied territories would have the same result...

http://www.aivp.com/aivp/pnbgb.htm

[elke]

You are right about the French Guyana: I goofed. I knew a girl from there and that's what she said, but I should've checked instead of just taking her word for it. :o

I agree that the Europeans should not be considered solely responsible for the Third World mess, but neither do I think that Israel is responsible for everything that occurs in the Palestinian territories.

The ultimate goal, I am sure, is to have a political, economic, scientific, etc. cooperation. I do believe that it's possible and likely to happen eventually. The only part we really disagree on is whether it's possible at this time .

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Vic

No you are not ;) I'm almost thinking of getting T. off my ignore list :D







I'm not !

[takeo]

oh my God!!!!
Lomplighter is ignoring me :(
I will have to enjoy my loneliness in the company of the moon and the stars, what a cruel God who gives and takes the delightfull presence of Lomplighter among all nice things in our short existance on earth ;)

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
oh my God!!!!
Lomplighter is ignoring me :(
I will have to enjoy my loneliness in the company of the moon and the stars, what a cruel God who gives and takes the delightfull presence of Lomplighter among all nice things in our short existance on earth ;)

How poetic! :D

[Vic]

Hi Takeo!

I can provide you with nice links to forums where you can enjoy the attention of all the participators - mutually ;)

[takeo]

yes, Elke, i hope Lomplighter will notice my cry for attention trough your quote :D
seriously now, I have other qualities as well Elke... ;)


ok Vic, i'm interested, do you mean the forum of the Miss-Russia-contest?

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
yes, Elke, i hope Lomplighter will notice my cry for attention trough your quote :D
seriously now, I have other qualities as well Elke... ;)


ok Vic, i'm interested, do you mean the forum of the Miss-Russia-contest?
A fine feature of this forum, the click to display single postings of ignored users

Oh, you have "other qualities as well"? Just out of curiosity: do you ever do anything else than post your ramblings in this forum?

No, they still seem to appreciate good writing style in Russia :)
I mean this one http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=37 for example.

Still, come to think of it, maybe it would do you good to change the topic for some time...

[takeo]

I found an interesting post on this link you gave me:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3483

The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel ...................Jack Bernstei

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
I found an interesting post on this link you gave me:[...]
What? You have never heard of this masterpiece before?

I knew you'd like the forum, but do try Russian beauties for a change :)

[elke]

That article should go into "The Joke and Parody" thread. It must have put PFLP in stitches! :D

[takeo]

I didn't actually read it, i was just attracted by the title, which seems to be the most interesting part of the article.

do you have the link, vic? I need to express my other qualities as well...

[elke]

Oh, but you have to read it! It's superbly entertaining! :D

[takeo]

indeed, you are right, I will send this text to some friends of mine in the PCF, they will have a good laugh too...

I feel more comfortable now that i know some American Jews have even lower english language skills than i do... :D

the content is also very funny, just an example:

"In Israel, most Jews have become tired of Israel's
involvement in war and aggressive acts and want peace. It
is only the communist faction that wants war. Sadly, it
is these communists who are in power in Israel. "

"From the terms of this pact, you can see it was, and
still is, the aim of the Soviet Union and Zionist/Marxist
Israel to prevent peace between the Arab countries and
Israel until all the Arab countries are forced to adopt
socialism under Soviet ledership"

:rolleyes:

those damn commies...

[elke]

I wouldn't bet on it that this was written by an American. There were so many factual errors in that thing, that it's doubtful that whoever wrote it had even a cursory knowledge of what a kibbutz is, - which suggests that the whole thing is a hoax.

Of course, to paraphrase Morpheus' signature, human stupidity knows no bounds, so you never know... :D

[cerulean]

Thomas Friedman article about Iran:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/12/opinion/12FRIE.html

According to the article, the average Iranian feels life would be considerably better if the US embargo against Iran was lifted.

Bush's "axis of evil" statement is apparently being used to good effect by reformers.

[Pushtak18]

Many people in Iran are much different then the ones we see on TV or in the Media.

Alot of very western and hardworking bunch who just want to see a better life and education for there offsprings.

Iran today has changed drimaticly....Not many Iranians are being angry or provoking hatred towards the U.S for calling Iran an "AXIS OF EVIL" infact, they were happy for that, because it finally proved the main question to the Hard-liners in Iran which is "AFTER 22 YEARS OF THE REVOLUTION LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE US COME TO".

Good people in the U.S who you should hear the Iranian-American relation. They are pro-west, pro-democracy, pro-israel and pro-U.S and they want to restore full democracy in Iran and help Iran hopefully begin a trance into a better life!

[elke]

Originally posted by cerulean
According to the article, the average Iranian feels life would be considerably better if the US embargo against Iran was lifted.


Well, duh! What an insightful conclusion Friedman came to! :D

(I am sorry, I don't have access to the NY Times, Cerulian, so I had to quote you instead...then I re-read it today, and it sounded grossly rude. Sorry! I did not mean it that way! :o )

Iran is a special case though, IMHO, because there seems to be a good deal of normal people there.

[takeo]

"Iran today has changed drimaticly....Not many Iranians are being angry or provoking hatred towards the U.S for calling Iran an "AXIS OF EVIL" infact, they were happy for that, because it finally proved the main question to the Hard-liners in Iran which is "AFTER 22 YEARS OF THE REVOLUTION LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE US COME TO". "

no, actually most people are very angry for calling Iran as belonging to the "axis of evil". The people in the documentory said such actions could only strengten the conservative forces in Iran that are not interested in good relations with the West anyway. They find it also unfair, because their country was not involved in the sept. 11th attacks, but on the contrary provided the US with usefull information. Iranians are very patriotic and any such declarations will enrage the whole people, no matter if they belong to the system or not. My iranian friends in the university had the same opinion.

[Pushtak18]

Originally quoted by Takeo


no, actually most people are very angry for calling Iran as belonging to the "axis of evil". The people in the documentory said such actions could only strengten the conservative forces in Iran that are not interested in good relations with the West anyway. They find it also unfair, because their country was not involved in the sept. 11th attacks, but on the contrary provided the US with usefull information. Iranians are very patriotic and any such declarations will enrage the whole people, no matter if they belong to the system or not. My iranian friends in the university had the same opinion.


Who are you getting your information from, the hardliners or the PEOPLE, let me clarify you again...THE PEOPLE! Go to the Iranian-American committe (IRC), and you will see that they see this as hope and benefit, because as i said before, Iranians are finally questioning a corrupted religous regime. You and your ignorant and provocative French laisson attitude, will not get Iran anywhere. Listen to the people, not the Conservatives. Don't listen to the documentary, because 90% of the documenatry was controlled by the Conservatives, they own everything in Iran, so its baseless to say that you get your information from some sources like this! Listen to the people. The people want freedom and they want relations with America. Calling them the Axis of Evil doesn't insult Iranian people, but the Iranian Regime! Get it?
Iranians weren't the ones that did sept 11, but Terrorism is Terrorism and Iran supports it. They have there hands tied up with the bombin in Saudi Arabia and many hijackings as well as the famous US NAVAL BOMBING in October of 1983 in Lebanon. You complain about occupation, well, there the ones who occupy and diseat Souther Lebanon, so round of applause for Takeo and his ignorance! Also, Hezbollah had a sort of suicidal mission in May 2001, where a Lone pilot flew his plane in Israel without permission and was shot down....So was this a sort of accident or the frame work for 911??? you be the judge! Also, many in the US congress say that Iran has helped a good number of Taliban and Al Quida forces, don't deny that as well!
I agree, many Iranians are patriotic and proud of the Persian/Farsi Culture, but the matter is, that its the regime that needs to be changes. The people want Freedome and democracy, and you ignore this. What kind of humanatarian are you? One with a the 2 prong crowns in your head?

[takeo]

Iranian-American committe (IRC) IS NOT EXACTLY THE REPRESENTATION OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE

The documentory was made by french television and most people were harshly criticising the conservatives in the documentory, so they had no fear expressing their opinion.

Terrorism is terrorism but the US supported terrorism as well. So should we include the us too on the axis of evil?
I tought the "war on terror" was a reaction to 11/9, no? not to the US naval bombing 19 years ago... , which was actually an act of war, not terrorism.
i am not denying that iranians want freedom and a change of regime, but at the same time the Iranians don't like their country being added to the "axis of evil"(Bush did not mention the conservative forces in Iran but the whole country), especially since the regime is changing and one particular part of the regime (president khatami and the parliament) is strongly supported by the majority of iranians, and not some kind of obscure group in the US. And especially since iran has for a long time not any longer participated in terrorism against the US.
if some country would call Israel the big evil, would you consider it to be against the whole country or only against the regime in israel?

[Mediocrates]

Actually they have. The entire arab world has formally called Israel the little satan or the evil zionist oppressor or the land formerly know as Palestine or whatnot regardless of what they think of Israelis or Jews individually. The purpose of it is to install hatred of a whole group of people w/o bothering to think too deeply about it. That's what arab propaganda is.

[Pushtak18]

"Iranian-American committe (IRC) IS NOT EXACTLY THE REPRESENTATION OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE

The documentory was made by french television and most people were harshly criticising the conservatives in the documentory, so they had no fear expressing their opinion."

the Iranian-American committe represents roughly 2 million American-Iranians who have lived in the united states for well over 60 years now. They have pictures, documents, and personal ordeals that direct Iran to War crimes dating since 1979! I think that 99.9% of All American-Persians do support the I.R.C, because they want to put democracy in Iran, and belive America is a good friend of Iran! All your trying to do is help the conservatives and hardliners achieve there goal, and for the past 10 good years, nothing has happened, so where do you sit here.

I respect the IRC on the basis of that its protecting Human rights. Ofcourse, you claim to have human rights, but yet......your only 1 topic or 1 sided to many issues here.
On another note the IRC has been in touch with many Iranian Chritians, Ba'hai, Sunni and Jewish citizens that live in the US now and are doing this mission together as one!!!


"I tought the "war on terror" was a reaction to 11/9, no? not to the US naval bombing 19 years ago... , which was actually an act of war, not terrorism."

Back, 19 years ago we didn't have a good president, we have mr. regan who was chicken-coward..."

"I am not denying that iranians want freedom and a change of regime, but at the same time the Iranians don't like their country being added to the "axis of evil"(Bush did not mention the conservative forces in Iran but the whole countrys"

The Iranians see that the Axis of Evil is in good and not bad, Some ofcourse do not like the wording of it, because they are scared that people will have it the wrong way, but many Iranians know for a fact that bush is reffering to the Regime and not the people. That is what many of you 'peace-activist' think. Its not the people who Bush wants, its the the Ayatollahs.

"especially since the regime is changing and one particular part of the regime (president khatami and the parliament) is strongly supported by the majority of iranians, and not some kind of obscure group in the US. And especially since iran has for a long time not any longer participated in terrorism against the US."

Eventhough, President Ayatollah Khatami is a reform and seeks change in Iran, that is not included the whole of his government. First of all, he is an Ayatollah, so even if he is a Far-Right reformist, he will never have total change that the people truly want. 2ndly, in the Presidents Khatami's government there are people who are far right, like the whole supreme court and many other important figures. To be honest, many iranians don't see change from 1996 and 2002, because all Khatami actually did was get into power again and take out personally 2 hardcore far-rightist in his government? is that called change? that is called personal feelings, not democracy!

"if some country would call Israel the big evil, would you consider it to be against the whole country or only against the regime in israel?"

Actually, im not sure who called Israel this, but some Arab newspaper quotes that Iran-Iraq-N. Korea is not the real Axis of evil, but the USA-India-Israel is the REAL AXIS OF EVIL.....and why not? Israel is the only democracy (In the middle east), India is the biggest (populated) democracy, and the USA is the greatest and most powerful democracy in the world.

SO ALL HAIL DEMOCRACY, LIBERTY, FREEDOME AND THE PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS!!!!!!

GOD THANK THE USofA

[Mediocrates]

in the Presidents government there are people who are far right, like the whole supreme court



Hey, Us Too!, Yippee !!!

[Pushtak18]

Mediocrates,


sure, but there autocratic supreme court system where u cannot change or legistlate anything.

They have totall control and if you want to ditch it somehow you have to have money or a lot of dead bodys around!


NO TRUTH! NO JUSTICE! THE AMERICAN WAY!

[Mediocrates]

Tell you what - we'll send them Scalia and Rehnquist and they can send us two mullahs and we'll call it even.

[takeo]

"Actually they have. The entire arab world has formally called Israel the little satan or the evil zionist oppressor or the land formerly know as Palestine or whatnot regardless of what they think of Israelis or Jews individually. The purpose of it is to install hatred of a whole group of people w/o bothering to think too deeply about it. That's what arab propaganda is.
"

That's exactly how American propaganda works as well, an average American will think that every Iranian is a potential terrorist, because of the propaganda.

"the Iranian-American committe represents roughly 2 million American-Iranians who have lived in the united states for well over 60 years now. They have pictures, documents, and personal ordeals that direct Iran to War crimes dating since 1979! I think that 99.9% of All American-Persians do support the I.R.C, because they want to put democracy in Iran, and belive America is a good friend of Iran! All your trying to do is help the conservatives and hardliners achieve there goal, and for the past 10 good years, nothing has happened, so where do you sit here. "

that's right, they represent (some part of) the American Iranians, but not the Iranians in iran or in Europe...
i'm not trying to help to conservatives, but i believe it is more important to help the reformist forces in iran in a constructive way than to diabolise the whole country and treaten with war (the "axis of evil-speech is really a treat for iran)...
The last 6 years a lot has changed in Iran, but there's still a long way to go.

"but many Iranians know for a fact that bush is reffering to the Regime and not the people"

that's certainly not what Iranians here or in Iran think... and by the way they believe the US should stay out of internal iranian policy, only iranians themselves will change or fight the regime, not some foreign superpower.

yes, peace-activists are payed by the Ayatollahs :rolleyes:

"Eventhough, President Ayatollah Khatami is a reform and seeks change in Iran, that is not included the whole of his government. First of all, he is an Ayatollah, so even if he is a Far-Right reformist, he will never have total change that the people truly want. 2ndly, in the Presidents Khatami's government there are people who are far right, like the whole supreme court and many other important figures. To be honest, many iranians don't see change from 1996 and 2002, because all Khatami actually did was get into power again and take out personally 2 hardcore far-rightist in his government? is that called change? that is called personal feelings, not democracy! "

You seem like a specialist about what iranians think, yet Khatami is NOT an Ayatollah in the first place... and he is truly loved by iranians on the contrary to the conservatives. He is still bound by the conservatives, but slowly their power is erodating, recently even a powerfull member of the "revolutionnary guard" (the most conservative institution in Iran) has said that Iran needs to change.

"Actually, im not sure who called Israel this, but some Arab newspaper quotes that Iran-Iraq-N. Korea is not the real Axis of evil, but the USA-India-Israel is the REAL AXIS OF EVIL.....and why not? Israel is the only democracy (In the middle east), India is the biggest (populated) democracy, and the USA is the greatest and most powerful democracy in the world. "

I guess everyone has his own axis of evil...

my axis of evil...
the republican party in the US, Likud, the Taliban, the pakistan-regime, the IMF, the Turkish regime and many more on the black list, ...
BTW: India is only democracy in name, many Indians can't even read or write...

"Tell you what - we'll send them Scalia and Rehnquist and they can send us two mullahs and we'll call it even."

you can send them Ashcroft as well, he would perfectly fit in Iran...

[cerulean]

This one focuses on young people and increased personal freedoms in terms of pop music and film.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/opinion/16FRIE.html

[Mediocrates]

my axis of evil...the republican party in the US, Likud, the Taliban, the pakistan-regime, the IMF, the Turkish regime and many more on the black list, ...


That's more like a subway map of evil. Another Prozac moment.

[elke]

Ashcroft is not a Justice in the Supreme Court, so he can't be exchanged for an Ayatollah or a Mullah :D

I think you underestimate an average American: no country has an Einstein in every home, but it's doubtful that there are many who really believe that every Iranian is a terrorist. Propaganda does not work as well in societies with freedom of speech, and we all have heard plenty about the refreshing winds coming from Iran lately.

I wasn't crazy about the "axis of evil", or about the "Crusade" comments either. Bush has his strengths, but high intelligence, IMHO, is not one of them. I agree with you that there has to be a more constructive way of getting Iran out of its rut, but the question is HOW to do that. Is there an organized liberation movement there that can be aided, directly or indirectly, without endangering individuals needlessly?

Oh, and IMF? Why IMF? :confused:

[takeo]

because the IMF has forced (by treatening to refuse loans) poor countries all over the world to liberalise their economy, while the develloped world didn't lift its tolls, with catastrophic results for 80% of them... the most dramatic case Argentina, but as well Ghana, etc.

This policy is one of the prime targets of the anti-globalisation movement started in Seattle.


"Ashcroft is not a Justice in the Supreme Court, so he can't be exchanged for an Ayatollah or a Mullah "

DAMN!!! couldn't you exchange him for something else?

America may have freedom of speech, but few Americans really use that freedom to watch anything else than infotainment programs, even CNN is considered "elite" in the US i found out...
when my mum went to the states in the 70's people were afraid of her because of her Russian name... (she had some funny stories about Oklahoma...)

What, an "organized liberation movement" :o are you becoming a supporter of terrorism? ;)

Yes, there is a large one, but the problem is that it is not very popular in Iran AND (or BECAUSE) it is supported by the iraqi regime.
I think it would be more constructive to help the reformists in the current regime with positive steps to stop the isolation of iran, more western influence means an even harder time for the mullahs to keep their grip on the rebellious youth and women and expanding reformists. It seems to be inevitable that sooner or later the hard-liners will vanish, because they have become a minority even inside the regime.
(do you know that most young iranians do not even pray anymore? that's the consequence when Islam is associated with repression...)

[elke]

I don't know much about IMF - just the generic, Economics class stuff, so I'll shut up on that topic (for once! :-))

I would gladly exchange Ashcroft for a newer, more sophisticated model - but such is life: I will take what I can get! ;)

There are indeed some interesting characters in the US. Sometime, I will tell you of my experiences in Wheaton and DeKalb, Illinois - it'll put you in stitches! I don't know just how different it actually is though from other places: I can tell you some stories about Russia and Austria that are equally, shall we say... amusing?

As for Iran - I know, I deserved that one! I meant "liberalization movement", not "liberation". The one supported by Iraq is not popular? What a surprise! :rolleyes: I KNEW that Iranians had sense, - this just proved it! :cool:

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,

"that's right, they represent (some part of) the American Iranians, but not the Iranians in iran or in Europe...
i'm not trying to help to conservatives, but i believe it is more important to help the reformist forces in iran in a constructive way than to diabolise the whole country and treaten with war (the "axis of evil-speech is really a treat for iran)...
The last 6 years a lot has changed in Iran, but there's still a long way to go."

They represent the whole of the Iranian, and if you don't belive them than why do you have Iranians living in the U.S anyways? Many of them have a story or another about the cruel punishment they have gotten in Iran.
I know you don't support the conservatives, but whats the point about supporting the reformist as well. They don't want quick change that the people want. They want change, but your not going to see change when the government sets up many ways in which you cannot overthrow it and turn it into a real Democratic state!! Understand that! Iran will never change when you got a hard line conservative or whether you got a Far Right reformist? you know why? Because, there both Ayatollahs, and they do seek change. Sure there was change in the past 6 years, but there wasn't the change that the people wanted. I feel somewhat deluded to hear that you have different ideas in Europe, when at the same time many Iranians fled to Europe as well...so quit your lying and respect democracy you soviet comrad!!

"that's certainly not what Iranians here or in Iran think... and by the way they believe the US should stay out of internal iranian policy, only iranians themselves will change or fight the regime, not some foreign superpower."

Where here?? France? Neo Nazi Autocratic [expletive deleted] France? i don't care what people think in France, because its a 2 faces, hitlers favourite country. To have a peace rally and holding a filthy algerian flag, makes it peaceful than i must say that country is insanely dumb! Algeria has a little fundmentalist islamic war going on between them.... But anways.....
Iranians know that Bush was talking about the Regime and the Ayatollahs, and not the people! Are u telling me that you are listening to the Media who tell you that a minue after the Bush speech Ayatollah Khatami went on an addressed his people with lies by telling them "They were the target for Bush?"
Than if that is the case, than Civilian infrastructure in all major citys in Iran should have been in bits and bites right now, wouldn't u say Takeo?
Bush ment the Regime and not the people and in places like Italy, Spain, USA, Canada, and the UK where i read, many Iranians cheered him on, because that is the reason why there outside of Iran in the first place, because they fear of living there! Bush is giving them hope....Your giving them Ayatollahs, so you choose!
The thing is that many Iranians want full change. They want to seperate they want to seperate Religon from Government, and they cannot do it because if they do, they will be shot, killed or jailed!!! So you tell me what other choice people have? your not dealing with people here, your dealing with Ayatollahs who are in the Sub-Human race!!!!

"yes, peace-activists are payed by the Ayatollahs"

Ofcourse they are! Oil is paid off pretty well here. The Ayatollahs get nomads like you who go around the internet and publicize how good they should be! Infact, you join your little friends from the NGO (Non-Government Organization) who is sponsored by King Faisal (saudi Arabia) and Sudan. Why? Cause if they deal with the major issues, like they did in Durban, South Africa; with Israel and slavery and all that, both sudan and Saudi Arabia can get a free ticket without paying the heavy price.
Because of your NGO and corrupted peace crapists, Saudi Arabia is committing slavery daily, and had numerous cases where they personally kidnapped youths as young as 10 from Banin and forced them into Slavery of Manufacturing, Farming and Oil!!!!! Thanks to you, especially! and then i wonder why that 10 year old Banin Negro (who you love to call by that Name) goes out and with 150 KG and blows you and your Anti-Globalist activist!

"You seem like a specialist about what iranians think, yet Khatami is NOT an Ayatollah in the first place... and he is truly loved by iranians on the contrary to the conservatives. He is still bound by the conservatives, but slowly their power is erodating, recently even a powerfull member of the "revolutionnary guard" (the most conservative institution in Iran) has said that Iran needs to change."

Ofcourse i know Iran good! There in the back of my head! I am truly a knowledge person of Iran. But No, you are wrong...Look at Khatamis full name. He is an Ayatollah. Yet he is a reformist. It doesn't make any difference from him or anyone else running, he is a reformist and there is no changed what-so-ever. True, that people do like him, but he has critics and many critics see that there is no change and evertime he upsets the people, the hard-liners get a point. Its Middle-east basketball, you gotta learn it! Ayatollah Khatami is losing here, because he doesn't want change. There is change, but not what the people want. The people want democracy, everyone wants deomocracy, but the problem is that its not working when you have people who reject to democracy being so deluded and ignorant about the whole topic all together.

Iranians who are Iranians (not you, or your imaginary friends), speak out as a citizen of Iran who wants change. You have to somehow understand this concept that when you see an immigrant in france, belgium or anywhere else in the free world, he is not there cause he 'feels' change, yet he there cause there was problems in his home country. Im sorry that you didn't feel that in the former USSR, but in Iran many do, and many speak out about it. you will never hear anyone in Iran speak out about it, cause they will be first censored, and then shot.
its not the kinda world that you and I live in!


"I guess everyone has his own axis of evil...

my axis of evil...
the republican party in the US, Likud, the Taliban, the pakistan-regime, the IMF, the Turkish regime and many more on the black list, ...
BTW: India is only democracy in name, many Indians can't even read or write"

I don't care who you call your axis of evil, you live under a bad country already (france) and there is no change, its this or Le Pen!!! And you call the French advance, LMAO!
SUre, India has alot of illiterate people, but then again Pakistan and Bangladesh both combine a total for the most people who are diagnosed with Leprosy, over 38 million and growing, yet..the medicine they have to treat it is "un-islamic", so would u like to have leprosy and live in Paki-Paki-Pakistan?

"you can send them Ashcroft as well, he would perfectly fit in Iran"

You send Ashcroft to Iran and you won't see him again! And i don't really want him to go, he such a handsome fella! ;)

[takeo]

"I would gladly exchange Ashcroft for a newer, more sophisticated model - but such is life: I will take what I can get! "

What? are you married to the man? :eek:
yes, that's right, some amusing stories in other countries too, especially Russia, but the US-citizens are very special in their lack of any knowledge of the outer space... (non-US...)
just an example: in Oklahoma my mum told that in France people still live in trees, as a joke, some people tought it was serious!!!
Some people tought that France was the capital of Paris but they were very surprised that they didn't know the capital of Alabama... even in the smallest village in Siberia or Iran people will know what is Paris and that France is a devellopped country. the US is unique in its narcicism. Russian people even know a great deal of French writers I noticed. (more than the French themselves)
People in the East Coast seem to be more educated.

ok, what the hell is a "national liberalisation movement"???




"The one supported by Iraq is not popular? What a surprise! I KNEW that Iranians had sense, - this just proved it! "

yeah, as i said, smart people ;)

[elke]

Tut, tut, - don't even say such things! My husband won't like it :) (nor will, most likely, the man's wife )

I don't know about the Russians in Siberia: my friend was telling me how her grandmother did not know what a lemon was, and this is in a town a few miles outside of St. Petersburg! My grandfather's wife came over here for a visit a few years back, and decided to saw a metal broomstick in half. We still don't know why - is there some religious significance to that, that you know of? We are at a loss here, figuratively and literally speaking... ;)

For Iran, I was just thinking in terms of an organized group of people, who are trying to remove the Ayatollahs from positions of absolute power. Khatami is rather difficult to help, since he is tied to the mullahs and any support has to be overt. If there is a well-organized grassroots movement that can be helped, there may be ways to do so.

[Mediocrates]

America may have freedom of speech, but few Americans really use that freedom to watch anything else than infotainment programs, even CNN is considered "elite"

Grace me with your sage wisdom, Yoda. You seem like an educated person yet you have zero capacity for irony. Do you think we ALL wear cowboy hats? Do you think ANY of us wear shoes? How about reading? Do you think any of us CAN read? Do you think that its just one big strip mall filled with drive by shootings from sea to shining sea?

Honestly, if your sage opinions about virtually EVERY OTHER PLACE ON EARTH are as dim and childish as your observations, real or made up of the US then you know less than nothing whether you've actually been to any of those places or not.

[takeo]

LOL
of course I'm not referring to ALL Americans, you seem to be of a different kind. Yet my parents met such people in the mid-west in the 70's. I didn't met such extreme cases, but still most people know very little about Europe, much less than Europeans know about the US.

Yep, Russians can be quite odd at times :p
I went to a village in the Urals (near Perm) were people didn't know that Yeltsin was their president! They also don't think very logical or practical.
but i think most Rusians know what a lemon is...

"For Iran, I was just thinking in terms of an organized group of people, who are trying to remove the Ayatollahs from positions of absolute power. Khatami is rather difficult to help, since he is tied to the mullahs and any support has to be overt. If there is a well-organized grassroots movement that can be helped, there may be ways to do so."

well, there are some grass-root students-organisation in the universities and schools that organised manifestations and published papers in support of Khatami and the maire of teheran (who was convicted by conservative court), but i don't think that any help to them would benefit them, as foreign aid can be abused by the conservatives to crack down on them.
there are also some reformist press, who go very far in criticising the conservatives and some stupid rules in Iran (for example the separate busses or the repression) and corruption. Some have been banned, but always a new one took their place.
But many people in Iran are trying to remove the conservatives from power, and i think the ones inside the regime have the most capacity to do so and are the most dangerous for the regime, especially since even some die-hard conservatives as Rafstanjani seem to switch sides to the reformists.

[elke]

Well, I don't know: if you don't know the capital of Alabama, why do you expect Americans to know all the capitals of the European nations? I agree, it's probably a good idea for them to know that; but to expect that? Nah. :)

[takeo]

Alabama is not a country, remember, but a part of a federal country...

no sane person in the US knows the capital of Agidei or Tcherkessia or Mordvin republic or other parts of the Russian federation...

:p

[elke]

Neither do I, and quite honestly, I don't really care! I have a limited number of brain cells still available for recording additional information, and I am saving them for the REALLY important things. :D

So long as they don't touch Israel or US, it's no skin off my nose ;)

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by takeo
Agidei or Tcherkessia or Mordvin


That's the fourth row of the eye test.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mediocrates



That's the fourth row of the eye test.

In that case, I can only see it with my glasses or contacts on, anyway.:D

[takeo]

"Neither do I, and quite honestly, I don't really care! I have a limited number of brain cells still available for recording additional information, and I am saving them for the REALLY important things. "

hey, i'm sure the Mordvinians find their capital very interesting...

but you're right, that's why i don't know and don't care what is the capital of Alabama.

[elke]

I don't care about the capital of Alabama either, but my precious brain cells have been co-opted for that by my children, when they had to know ALL the State Capitals. :D

[cerulean]

Iran and the War of Ideas

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/opinion/19FRIE.html

TEHRAN, Iran — What if a theocracy and a democracy had a baby? What would it look like? It would look like Iran.

What makes Iran so interesting is that it's not a real democracy, but it's not a real Islamic theocracy either. It is, though, just enough of a democracy for many Iranians to know that they want more of it, and just enough of an Islamic theocracy for many Iranians to know they want less of it.

And if you listen to what's going on behind all the noise here, what you find are a lot of thinkers, both democrats and religious conservatives, looking for a way to synthesize these two aspirations.
...
========

Sounds optimistic.

[takeo]

"Iran and the War of Ideas

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/opinion/19FRIE.html

TEHRAN, Iran — "What if a theocracy and a democracy had a baby? What would it look like? It would look like Iran. "

:) not a very healthy baby tought... with such parents what do you expect...

What makes Iran so interesting is that it's not a real democracy, but it's not a real Islamic theocracy either. It is, though, just enough of a democracy for many Iranians to know that they want more of it, and just enough of an Islamic theocracy for many Iranians to know they want less of it.

And if you listen to what's going on behind all the noise here, what you find are a lot of thinkers, both democrats and religious conservatives, looking for a way to synthesize these two aspirations.
... "

I think so too...

[cerulean]

Another column by Thomas Friedman (looks like he's doing a series). This one is depressing and sad.

Iran by the Numbers
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/opinion/23FRIE.html
The most striking thing about Iran today is the honesty you can find in the newspapers. Some mornings, they take your breath away. Consider the mainstream paper Entekhab, which ran a long piece the other day, headlined "Skyrocketing Figures," that ticked off the following statistics: There are now 84,000 prostitutes operating on the streets of Tehran and 250 brothels, including some linked to high officials. There are 60 new runaway girls hitting Tehran's streets every day — a 12 percent increase over last year. Forty percent of all drug-addicted women in Iranian prisons have AIDS. Two sisters, ages 16 and 17, recently gave AIDS to 1,100 people in a two-month period. Four million youths under the age of 20 suffer from depression. Unemployment (which is already around 30 percent) is steadily rising.

All of these problems are symptoms of a floundering economy, or, as the newspaper Iran News baldly put it two weeks ago: "The nation's entire economic structure is fundamentally bankrupt and in desperate need of urgent and sweeping reforms. Some of the graver and more prominent problems include lack of sufficient foreign investment, mismanagement in all tiers of our economic system, political isolation leading to [a] deteriorating economic situation, atrocious unemployment [and] high inflation."

This deterioration is not primarily the result of U.S. sanctions. Iran has plenty of oil wealth and can buy anything from Europe or the black market. It is primarily the result of mismanagement by Iran's theocratic rulers — their corruption, incompetence, arbitrary decisions, religious legal codes and antiglobalization instincts. Which is why the biggest internal drama playing out in Iran today is this: Will the ayatollahs peacefully reform their system, or will it explode beneath their feet from social unrest?

...
========
Clearly the policy of trying to enforce morality by forcing women to wear chadors is not working. (I do find the following sentence hard to believe, given epidemiological probabilities of transmitting AIDS, but perhaps the Iranian press meant it as a scare tactic: Two sisters, ages 16 and 17, recently gave AIDS to 1,100 people in a two-month period .)

[takeo]

I guess that shows Iran is pretty much diifferent and more open than the taliban-regime or even SA, and has its share of problems that other devellopping countries are facing too.
At least there is a certain degree of openness rare in the Middle East and Asia.
the economy is in a mess because of the clerical controll, but still people live much better than Egypt or Jordania for example, let alone Pakistan...

[elke]

Yes, but how much longer will their better standard of life continue? It's such a pity, Iran has more than just oil. It also has human resources of high calibre that are being wasted.

[Pushtak18]

Good Article indeed by Thomas Friedman,


Will prove Mr. Takeo and his cockiness the real Iranians problem in a much more economic sense.

Iran is in Need of help. The rulers are not positioned to help there people. There positioned to be thoeratical leaders and deprive the people. As you saw, Top Iranian officals are 'pimping' ladies in Iran...how is that for a government??

And remember...It took Iran 2 years, from 1997 to 1999 to finally get out condoms to there people. For some time there hasn't been any education and to be frankly honest if they didn't do any education there would have been a grossely amount of 110 million Iranians by the year 2006...so thats scarry.

I think that its time to not give Reform a chance. But to just topple the reform, because all it does is give way to issues like this. I think Iran and like its people want change and would want an Monarhcy government just so they can be free.

If they were smart, they would have seperated the SHas from power and done like they do in England or Norway and places like that.

Just so you know Mr. Takeo!

[takeo]

ok, mr. Iranian specialist ...

reform is the only peacefull option for change in iran, it will be slow but steady; the problems stated are typical for all Thrith world countries, and during the reign of the shah had the same kind of problems (unemployment, prostitution, drugs was less because afghanistan was not yet the drug centre of the world)
the life under the shah wasn't paradise either, you know, many iranians were deprived of anything, especially on the backwards countryside, the revolution brought some equality and made an end to the much hated Shah-regime, but pretty soon the regime was corrupted and brutal as well, and today they have no more moral base for continuing their monopoly in the name of religion, they understand that they need to change, and i think in 10 years or so iran will be a secular state with some kind of velvet revolution from inside. But any foreign intervention would lead to bloodshet and will certainly not help people who would hope for reform.
I think elke that economic performance and the brightness of the people and natural wealth don't necessarily have any linear connection, to take Russia in the last 10 years as an example...

[elke]

many iranians were deprived of anything, especially on the backwards countryside, the revolution brought some equality and made an end to the much hated Shah-regime, but pretty soon the regime was corrupted and brutal as well, and today they have no more moral base for continuing their monopoly in the name of religion, they understand that they need to change,

Sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it? Just replace the "Shah" with "tsar", and "religion" by "communism".

It's like a "Twilight Zone" epizode! :)

[takeo]

oK, i see the similarity...
but still i think the Mollahs are a bunch of loosers compared to the Soviets... i would rather live in the soviet-union than in Iran.
and the Shah wasn't that bad either.

[elke]

You are right - this is like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, where the peg is smaller than the hole, so it fits but not exactly...
:)

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,

"reform is the only peacefull option for change in iran, it will be slow but steady; the problems stated are typical for all Thrith world countries, and during the reign of the shah had the same kind of problems (unemployment, prostitution, drugs was less because afghanistan was not yet the drug centre of the world)"

Reform did not bring any peace or resolutions. There are still gaps that Ayatollah Khatami did not close and there are loop holes in his system that still has the hardline conservatives. So in a sense, after 5 frustrating years, Iranians still did not see a change in life. Maybe it was good, but it wasn't what they wanted. And you don't know when the Hard-liners would snap in Iran. They could do it any minute now!
Sure, there were problems, but the Shah had morals and a sort of democratic path for his people. His people had a free speech and liberty. Maybe there were problems, but i think in the long run of just a few years, they would have been fix. Look at Turkey...Iran could have been 5 times better than What turkey is right now!!!!!!!!!!
With all there oil and natrual resources and there would be openess to the West, plus we wouldn't have problem with Iraq and no problem with the 'terrorist infrastructure' would we?

"the life under the shah wasn't paradise either, you know, many iranians were deprived of anything, especially on the backwards countryside, the revolution brought some equality and made an end to the much hated Shah-regime, but pretty soon the regime was corrupted and brutal as well, and today they have no more moral base for continuing their monopoly in the name of religion, they understand that they need to change"

I think Iranians knew from the start that this was corrupt. How can you bring into the scene a guy and give him full power to overthrow your country and make a state that belives in Theorys and religous Heirchy....... No one thought he ideas were good, especially when you have Iraqi tanks invading your country while at the other side your trying to figure out how you can the Lebanese people into the same you do to your people!!! That is just insane!!!!!! People in The Shas, maybe had turmoil, but there was change and there was freedome of speech. Many dissendents of Iran, especially the ones who were around 20-30 in 1970 would tell you exactly that Iran was a good place to live and very prosporous. Iran had all the nessesities and life was very good there....What went wrong?? A pedophilic Sh'itte muslim from Iraq came in and started runing it....Or did he come from FRANCE (NAZI FRANCE THAT IS) cause i read it somewhere....
and so did Ho Chi Min and so did....oooo right, its Takeo, you wouldn't want to hurt his feelings, so back to whati was saying...

"and i think in 10 years or so iran will be a secular state with some kind of velvet revolution from inside. But any foreign intervention would lead to bloodshet and will certainly not help people who would hope for reform"

You better wait another 50-75 years before you would see any sort of change in Iran. You still don't get the fact that there is no chance of true real, peoples reform in Iran. Its just impossible. The System there is Autrocratic. Even if you have an election, the Hard liners will rigg it just so they can get the edge they want. And even if they don't then 20,000 Iranians will be killed....Its a do or die situation in Iran, people will have to overcome change at a price they never insited on. And because of that, they need our help! And we shall help them. First by helping them with the Earthquake! Than they'll see that were truly good!

If i were you, i wouldn't want neither Russia or Iran. For one thing if you would dare to live under the Communist regime than probably you would have been raped, beaten and shot in the lower head for talking all this ****!!!!!

So be careful and kiss the ground 10000 times for living in France

[Mediocrates]

Just don't look up as 1 million other people's jackboots march by.

[takeo]

Elke, you're getting nasty... :o




Reform did not bring any peace or resolutions. There are still gaps that Ayatollah Khatami did not close and there are loop holes in his system that still has the hardline conservatives. So in a sense, after 5 frustrating years, Iranians still did not see a change in life. Maybe it was good, but it wasn't what they wanted. And you don't know when the Hard-liners would snap in Iran. They could do it any minute now!
Sure, there were problems, but the Shah had morals and a sort of democratic path for his people. His people had a free speech and liberty. Maybe there were problems, but i think in the long run of just a few years, they would have been fix. Look at Turkey...Iran could have been 5 times better than What turkey is right now!!!!!!!!!! "

come on, you know less from iran than i do apparently, there is no "ayatollah Khatami", and during the shah-regime the last thing people could enjoy were free speech and liberty.
Turkey is actually POORER than Iran, and Turkey is a very sick society too, military, corruption, drugs, civil war, poverty, ...
I don't think the conservatives will have some sort of coup to resume all their previous power, it is just impossible, because everyday more people are supporting the reformists, also within the army...


"With all there oil and natrual resources and there would be openess to the West, plus we wouldn't have problem with Iraq and no problem with the 'terrorist infrastructure' would we? "

that's not so sure, iraq and iran were ennemies even at the time of the Shahs.



"I think Iranians knew from the start that this was corrupt. How can you bring into the scene a guy and give him full power to overthrow your country and make a state that belives in Theorys and religous Heirchy....... No one thought he ideas were good, especially when you have Iraqi tanks invading your country while at the other side your trying to figure out how you can the Lebanese people into the same you do to your people!!! That is just insane!!!!!! People in The Shas, maybe had turmoil, but there was change and there was freedome of speech. Many dissendents of Iran, especially the ones who were around 20-30 in 1970 would tell you exactly that Iran was a good place to live and very prosporous. Iran had all the nessesities and life was very good there....What went wrong?? A pedophilic Sh'itte muslim from Iraq came in and started runing it....Or did he come from FRANCE (NAZI FRANCE THAT IS) cause i read it somewhere....
and so did Ho Chi Min and so did....oooo right, its Takeo, you wouldn't want to hurt his feelings, so back to whati was saying... "

blabla... you obviously are very ignorant and talking about subjects you don't understand. the ayatollah was very popular during the revoltuion, and the revolution would have never succeeded if ayatollah khomeini didn't have wide popular support and most people hated the shah-regime.
there was NO freedom of speech, it was a totalitarian regime and critics of the Shah disappeared in prison or worse. And prosperity was only for a happy few. The new regime wasn't much better, but people didn't know that at the time, they always hope fo better. Ho Chi Minh is a hero in Vietnam and i'm proud he studied in france and started his carreer in the PCF.



"You better wait another 50-75 years before you would see any sort of change in Iran. You still don't get the fact that there is no chance of true real, peoples reform in Iran. Its just impossible. The System there is Autrocratic. Even if you have an election, the Hard liners will rigg it just so they can get the edge they want. "

BS, in the last elections, the hardliners got only 10% of the votes...things are changing fast in iran, can you imagine 15 years ago in a major iranian newspaper an article about druguse and prostitution in iran? or Iran helping the US against Al-Quaida?

"And because of that, they need our help! And we shall help them. First by helping them with the Earthquake! Than they'll see that were truly good! "

yep, i'm sure they are waiting to be bombed... :rolleyes:

"If i were you, i wouldn't want neither Russia or Iran. For one thing if you would dare to live under the Communist regime than probably you would have been raped, beaten and shot in the lower head for talking all this ****!!!!! "

I would probably make carreer :D

"So be careful and kiss the ground 10000 times for living in France"

it isn't too bad, but let's not exaggerate...

[elke]

Why? What did I say? :confused:

[takeo]

never mind...
I suffer from stress... ;)

[elke]

I figured that much... :D

[Pushtak18]

come on, you know less from iran than i do apparently, there is no "ayatollah Khatami", and during the shah-regime the last thing people could enjoy were free speech and liberty.

Ayatollah Khatami is his name, You can call him President Khatami, but none the less this guy is an Ayatollah, and yes, even though he is an Ayatollah he is reform. If you don't trust me just look at one of his picture... I know its not right to 'judge a book by its color' but if you look at how he dresses he dresses like a Ayatollah or in my mind, a Taliban governor! Its like Yasser Arafat, you think that just because he dresses with his 1970 Military Fatigue and a Kuffiya Everyday he is a man of peace and wisdom....I think not!

People did enjoy Freedome of Speech and liberty in the Shah's time. They had a friend in the U.S who had open ties with them and Iranians found opprotunities. I spoke to many Israeli-Iranians and they told me that life in Iran was very well.... Infact, most of the Iranians in Israel have degrees of some sort. Some are accountants others are doctors. Check for yourself! Go to Beverly hills and i might give you 4 dozen or so Iranian-Jewish Plastic Surgeons for your dream Breat implants!! LOL!
But none the less, Shah brought opprotunity for his people. his people could talk and have an image of there nationality. Infact, if Shah was such a bad leader in which you state, than Ayatollah Homeni wouldn't have uprised and talked. Same goes to Israel, Arafat would have been in the rubble somewhere in Lebanon if it wasn't for Israels democratic laizon!!!

"Turkey is actually POORER than Iran, and Turkey is a very sick society too, military, corruption, drugs, civil war, poverty, ...
I don't think the conservatives will have some sort of coup to resume all their previous power, it is just impossible, because everyday more people are supporting the reformists, also within the army"

Turkey had a higher GNP than Iran does and its democratic. And its not sick. I had the pleasure of being there twice already. Once for 3 hours and then once for 4 days and i fell in love with the place. Istanbul and Bursa is Extremely safe and very passionate. Bands like sister of mercy, the Mission (UK), Pearl Jam and Bahaus take turkey as a refugee for the love and the scenery that it has to offer. Nonetheless the hospitality that i got in Turkey was great and im planning on going there again, once people here start tipping me better when i deliver!
And moreover, Turkey is much better than Iran is, Iran is a sick sick society, having sucked up to a regime, having lost all its values, having been greedy...Having two teenagers infect nearly 2,000 men with HIV and having 1 men in Mash'dad murder 48 women in just 3 months who are prostitues is sick.
But on a easy note, Turkey helps its people, rather than makes them druggies. Drugs and corruption is everywhere....You think there is no corruption in France or drug addicts??? Go to those Islamic Slums of Paris-Bordeux and Marsielle and you'll see one of your beutiful new immigrant ladys who is full in a scarve and baby on her arm sniffing 2 kilos of Cocaine daily.....Thank you Francois, and merci bouque!

"that's not so sure, iraq and iran were ennemies even at the time of the Shahs."

Ofcourse they were enemies, for hundreds of years there were issues..But what im saying is that, If Iran was Iran, and Iran had friends in Israel, in USA and in Europe, they would have made the Iran-Iraq conflict a 2 year issue and had probably eliminated saddam hussien and his regime for sure! And i think that the Civil war in Lebanon would have gotten spicier......But then again who knows, but what i do know is that this kinda think could have happend for sure.

"blabla... you obviously are very ignorant and talking about subjects you don't understand. the ayatollah was very popular during the revoltuion, and the revolution would have never succeeded if ayatollah khomeini didn't have wide popular support and most people hated the shah-regime."

Ayatollah only had a minority of supporters. Abd yes; i agree with you..the supporters he had was the ones who were in dispare of Shah, brainwashed pupils, or Ultra Religous folks....But the rest were just in a mixuture....they didn't know what happened and they weren't aware of him...and to tell me that after 23 years of this mans hard line hatred for his own people....you still think he is a worthy leader...YOUR SICK!!!!!! This man is a lie, and his regime and theorys is too! Stop listening to Theorys and the right of how much you do is a how much you make. Let people run there own lives, let people have freedome and liberty.....Its called DEMOCRACY......And Iran needs it, like you get Democracy in Corrupted France, they do in Iran.......If there was no democracy, i see you being dragged in the streets and mock/spat on until your head get muilated!!!! Sad, but true.

"there was NO freedom of speech, it was a totalitarian regime and critics of the Shah disappeared in prison or worse. And prosperity was only for a happy few. The new regime wasn't much better, but people didn't know that at the time, they always hope fo better. Ho Chi Minh is a hero in Vietnam and i'm proud he studied in france and started his carreer in the PCF."

How dare you say Ho Chi Minh was a hero. The man is a fraud, and he was sick. He put his country threw misery and dispere, he made people lose hope, only cause he was anti-imperialists.....But he didn't care so much, he acted like some Cambodian ruler who uses human flesh and dead people as an art for his house (Ever saw the movie apocolypse now?)... the man is a fraud and he deserves the 2 bullets in the head....And your sick by letting him be a hero, i would dance on his grave if had the chance.....and its an INSULT to have a crook, scum and pedophile live in your country and no, he didn't study much in France all he did was clean dishes, now isn't that a little bit perspective?

"BS, in the last elections, the hardliners got only 10% of the votes...things are changing fast in iran, can you imagine 15 years ago in a major iranian newspaper an article about druguse and prostitution in iran? or Iran helping the US against Al-Quaida?"

No BS, the last election was fixxed so bad! The hardliners got all the important jobs. You see, Ayatollah Khatmi spreads out his power to many things, and in powerness i think that the conservatives/hard-liners have a good 77% while the reformers have 20% and the minorities and REAL-DEMOCRATS have 3%. You still don't see that Hardliners own TV/MEDIA, International Relations, Intl. Diplomacy, Juridiction, High Cleric jobs and sort on...they run the country and the best the reformers can do is kick out 2 or 3 positions, but not there to kick out the Coutry system who is in the hands of the hard liners...
15 years ago, the thing you can find in an Iranian newspaper was lies, Lebanon, Iraq and more lies......
Than 12 years ago, they talked about how corrupted they are and how they are in debt, and now so long ago in 1995, they talked about how a dad should beat his son to death if he ever saw a pink floyd t-shirt in his room.....Get it?

"yep, i'm sure they are waiting to be bombed... "

Bombed? from who? Look how inconfident you are. If you were standed in an Island you would die instead of getting Israel to help you. In Iran's world, let the bodys rot and stink the whole town till they get them out..right? smart way of living! Lets clap at the french guy for inventing it!

[takeo]

i have been to turkey 3 times, and once to iran...
Turkey IS a sick society, and they are suffering from a chronic economic depression. turkish bnp is lower than the iranian one, and the eastern part of turkey is involved in a civil war, in "democratic" Turkey journalists are in jail for just mentioning the word "kurdistan" and human rights workers have been murdered, moreover it's a very corrupted country. Most Turks will agree to all that as well.
I saw much more drug addicts in turkey than in iran, but at least the problem can be openly discussed in Iran while the Turkish regime is repressive for the media, the slightest insult of the military can cost you years in jail.
We have drug addicts and prostitution in France, but certainly not more than in Israel!!!
khatami is a clergy as well but not an ayatollah, there is one ayatollah and that's Khamenei.
i heard from several people that the time of the shah was a time of poverty in the countryside and slums, while other people benefitted, there was absolutely no freedom of speech, in fact the iranian police was based upon the Spanish police under Franco. The Shah had absolute power, not really democracy, isn't it...
the revolution could never work without popular support, most iranians were sick and tired of the shah, who spend millions for his own family and friends. some people were educated, but today as well and even more, many girls are studiing in the universities around the country.

; i agree with you..the supporters he had was the ones who were in dispare of Shah, brainwashed pupils, or Ultra Religous folks....But the rest were just in a mixuture....they didn't know what happened and they weren't aware of him...and to tell me that after 23 years of this mans hard line hatred for his own people....you still think he is a worthy leader...YOUR SICK!!!!!! This man is a lie, and his regime and theorys is too! Stop listening to Theorys and the right of how much you do is a how much you make. Let people run there own lives, let people have freedome and liberty.....Its called DEMOCRACY......And Iran needs it, like you get Democracy in Corrupted France, they do in Iran.......If there was no democracy, i see you being dragged in the streets and mock/spat on until your head get muilated!!!! Sad, but true. "

did i ever say that i was in favor of the ayatollah Khomeini??? i just said that the shah wasn't any better either.
ok, let people live in freedom and democracy, so certainly NOT under an autocratic regime such as the Shah or a military regime as in Turkey...

actually the popular revolution against the Shah was supported by both the left, the liberal-democratic and by the religious people, unfortunately the last ones won and eliminated both the cronies of the Shah (who fled to the US) and as well the left and the liberals.

"How dare you say Ho Chi Minh was a hero. The man is a fraud, and he was sick. He put his country threw misery and dispere, he made people lose hope, only cause he was anti-imperialists.....But he didn't care so much, he acted like some Cambodian ruler who uses human flesh and dead people as an art for his house (Ever saw the movie apocolypse now?)... the man is a fraud and he deserves the 2 bullets in the head....And your sick by letting him be a hero, i would dance on his grave if had the chance.....and its an INSULT to have a crook, scum and pedophile live in your country and no, he didn't study much in France all he did was clean dishes, now isn't that a little bit perspective? "

lol, you seem to be a vietnamese specialist as well...
he was very popular in Vietnam, so much that the population in the south fought for their life against the us to reunite the country. And to refresh your memory vietnam made an end to poll pot, while the us continued to support him in the 80's...
Vietnam is today a more prosperous, united and independant country than 30 years ago, the picture of Ho chi Minh is everywhere.

"i think that the conservatives/hard-liners have a good 77% while the reformers have 20% and the minorities and REAL-DEMOCRATS have 3%. You still don't see that Hardliners own TV/MEDIA, International Relations, Intl. Diplomacy, Juridiction, High Cleric jobs and sort on...they run the country and the best the reformers can do is kick out 2 or 3 positions, but not there to kick out the Coutry system who is in the hands of the hard liners... "

the reformers own the parliament, the press, the government, the army and most lower admiistration, while the conservatives own the Revolutionnary council, the police, and the courts. But this is changing too, as prominent conservatives are becomming reformist.
iran is not rotting, it has its problems, but if you would have visited iran you would know that actually it is still a civilised country with civilised people, the average living standard is also higher than in any of the neighbouring countries.

i'm sure the Iranians are waiting to be rescued by israel... if you think that than you really need some help... :rolleyes:


voice of America:

"MANY PEOPLE OF MANY DIVERSE POLITICAL BACKGROUNDS WERE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION. WHAT UNITED THEM WAS
THEIR STRONG OPPOSITION TO THE SHAH'S AUTHORITARIAN RULE AS WELL
WHAT THEY VIEWED AS FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN THEIR COUNTRY. "

http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1999/990205-iran.htm

turkish gnp per capita in 1999: 6,422 $
http://www.romturkonline.com/English/Turkey/chp3.htm
iranian gnp per capita in 1999: 5,121 $
"In January 1979, Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the hereditary monarch whose decades-long authoritarian regime was marked by widespread corruption, fled Iran amid mounting religious and political unrest. "

http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2001/countryratings/iran.htm

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
turkish bnp is lower than the iranian one

Why do you post such things?

Turkey:
GDP per capita: $6,800 (2000 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html

Iran:
GDP - per capita: $6,300 (2000 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html

[takeo]

ok, the turkish one is slightly higher, i came to the same conclusion.
I based this statements on an encyclopedia.

[Mediocrates]

You know I was reading today how Iran, the Great Moderate is pursuing an international coalition to eliminate womens' rights and gay rights world wide and they've attempted to garner support with extreme Christian fundamentalist groups, even those in US. How do you reconcile that? Or do you simply ignore it and hope no one notices?

[Pushtak18]

"i have been to turkey 3 times, and once to iran..."

If you been to a terrorist camp in Iran, i would like to know about it.

"Turkey IS a sick society, and they are suffering from a chronic economic depression. turkish bnp is lower than the iranian one, and the eastern part of turkey is involved in a civil war, in "democratic" Turkey journalists are in jail for just mentioning the word "kurdistan" and human rights workers have been murdered, moreover it's a very corrupted country. Most Turks will agree to all that as well. "

Turkish society is really beutiful. Although most of the Economic life is in Istanbul and Ankara, there is more openess to the other parts of the area. I had the privilage to go to Eastern turkey for half a day and it looked really nice. Moreover, there is alot of changes in Turkey. Why would u underestimate a country that preserves democracy, atleast to a country that lives on theorys and denials like Iran?
Iran on the other hand is the SICK society. After all, they let the devil emerge with a weird taliban-like hat and a white beard, didn't they? They have earthquake problems, people cannot find jobs, Iranians are out of hope and luck. THe Government does not care, you cannot protests, you cannot live there in freedom, you can't do anything. Its sick place to be. And it will get sicker as time prevails. Dont count on the young ones cause they'll be the ones of the target.....

"I saw much more drug addicts in turkey than in iran, but at least the problem can be openly discussed in Iran while the Turkish regime is repressive for the media, the slightest insult of the military can cost you years in jail."

Are you comparing 2 countries that have the same population in which 1 (turkey) as around 1 million Drug users to the other (Iran) that has 6-8 Million drug users? Turkey has set up resources to battle drug. The Drug decline from the 1970's-1980's was successful....After the shortage, there was a decline of trafficing for drugs. Nonetheless, most drugs comes from Iran, but that was stopped!


"We have drug addicts and prostitution in France, but certainly not more than in Israel!!!"

Thats wise words from a liar who never been to Israel, let alone Turkey or IRan. Probably the most funnest place you ever been was Russia or Ukraine so tap it! Israel has around 250,000 Drug users and 10-15,000 Hard users.... Prostitues are around 17,500 in Israel and most are foreigners. Unlike France who has 750,000 drug users (And don't like to this one, since you have amsterdam near you) and a flog of prostitues. So don't say that you sick nazi like country is alright, cause its not. Its the SICK SOCIETY! And thank your Islamic friends a foes for the crime rate, the rapes, the murder, the drugs, the horrific lifes and the decline of tourism!!!! Once again, The Islamic community of France did an excellent work, didn't they?

"khatami is a clergy as well but not an ayatollah, there is one ayatollah and that's Khamenei."

Clergy is an Ayatollah!!! He is one of the 500 Ayatollahs right now and if you see in INterviews the refer to him as an Ayatollah, don't deny it!

"i heard from several people that the time of the shah was a time of poverty in the countryside and slums, while other people benefitted, there was absolutely no freedom of speech, in fact the iranian police was based upon the Spanish police under Franco. The Shah had absolute power, not really democracy, isn't it..."

No, not democracy, but hopefully if time had progressed there might have been. Surely, 200 years ago there wasn't democracy in France, but did anyone complain, they just waited for the revolution and to seperate monacrhy from government and Autocratic from Democratic...
They could have done the same easily, but since the rise of the Ayatollahs, they can't. Its an impossible task that is the point of no return. The Ayatollahs are like the Taliban or Al-Quida, they put alot of effort into planning on how they CANNOT be overthrowed.....Very Democratic.

"the revolution could never work without popular support, most iranians were sick and tired of the shah, who spend millions for his own family and friends. some people were educated, but today as well and even more, many girls are studiing in the universities around the country. "

Of course many people supported the Revolution, but how many did after 1980? Infact, Ayatollah Homeni never came in the picture for some time. Its like a leader who never was there.... The Shah had opprotunity but it needed to grow wheres the Theorotical regime that is today. Theres is not more difference, so whats the point your trying to make? are you just trying to screw other people over? Whats your goal for Iranians??? You talk and talk to this and that, but can you ask what they want?
I will give them democracy!!!! You will give a check for more corruption! YOUR SICK!!!!!

There is no regime in Turkey, there is a regime in Iran.
Iran needs to stop this mercyful thing and make there own little island where they can whip and beat women all day.
Most people from Iranian decent in USA, ISrael, Canada, UK, France and Germany prefer Shah, cause ofcourse he wasn't better, but do you want to live in a society that HATES and teacher to HATE and is hostile all the time???
It made so many problems it should have been the target of the AXIS OF EVIL 20 years ago!

"lol, you seem to be a vietnamese specialist as well...
he was very popular in Vietnam, so much that the population in the south fought for their life against the us to reunite the country. And to refresh your memory vietnam made an end to poll pot, while the us continued to support him in the 80's...
Vietnam is today a more prosperous, united and independant country than 30 years ago, the picture of Ho chi Minh is everywhere."

Ho Chi minh is a fraud!!! He is the one who made Vietnam go 40 years behind with his communist nonsense!!!!! YOu support him cause your russian, a dirty litlte russian! Too bad there is no Ho Chi Minh in France today to show you how cruel living is in his regime was........

"the reformers own the parliament, the press, the government, the army and most lower admiistration, while the conservatives own the Revolutionnary council, the police, and the courts. But this is changing too, as prominent conservatives are becomming reformist. "

To be honest, most of the time when Ayatollah Khatami screws up, its a point for the Conservatives. Just like in Saudi Arabia, when King Faisal or Prince, screws up, the point is going to the opposition groups who Bin Laden claps for. The Conservatives have made manuvers to try to relay the reform out of power. There is 2 choices in Iran today, either the young will take over and wipe everything out, or 20,000 people will be shot to death! ITs your choice (actually it isn't but thats what gonna happen thanks for your ignorance).

"iran is not rotting, it has its problems, but if you would have visited iran you would know that actually it is still a civilised country with civilised people, the average living standard is also higher than in any of the neighbouring countries."

IRAN WANTS TO CIVILIZED! THEY BANN ALL FOREIGN BOOKS AND CASSESSETTES, AND AND THERE VERY CIVILIZED? THEY POKE IT AT THE MINORITIES AND THERE CIVILIZED? THEY DEPRIVE THERE PEOPLE AND IGNORE INTERNATIONAL HELP, ARE THEY CIVILIZED? THEY SUPPORT TERROR AND HAVE BI*TCHED LEBANON FOR 20 YEARS AND SO FORTH ARE THEY CIVILIZED? THEY PUT 1 MILLION OF THERE PEOPLE TO DEATH ARE THEY CIVILIZED?

"i'm sure the Iranians are waiting to be rescued by israel... if you think that than you really need some help... "

Its better to rot in those crummy houses Mr. Khatmai build!

[Iori Yagami]

Originally posted by takeo

he was very popular in Vietnam, so much that the population in the south fought for their life against the us to reunite the country. And to refresh your memory vietnam made an end to poll pot, while the us continued to support him in the 80's...


LMAO, as a so called russian, you should know that Stallin was quite popular too when he was alive, wasn`t he? People mourned his death for quite a while...

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pushtak18

"lol, you seem to be a vietnamese specialist as well...
he was very popular in Vietnam, so much that the population in the south fought for their life against the us to reunite the country. And to refresh your memory vietnam made an end to poll pot, while the us continued to support him in the 80's...
Vietnam is today a more prosperous, united and independant country than 30 years ago, the picture of Ho chi Minh is everywhere."

Ho Chi minh is a fraud!!! He is the one who made Vietnam go 40 years behind with his communist nonsense!!!!! YOu support him cause your russian, a dirty litlte russian! Too bad there is no Ho Chi Minh in France today to show you how cruel living is in his regime was........

Pustak,
Try not to become too emotional. Indeed, Ho Chi Minh is very popular in Vietnam. Well. it is not according to you.

Why do you think N. Vietnam win the war? If N. Vietnam lose the war, it will be like S. Korea and N. korea.

[christian]

Originally posted by Iori Yagami


LMAO, as a so called russian, you should know that Stallin was quite popular too when he was alive, wasn`t he? People mourned his death for quite a while...

Indeed, stalin is very popular. It is same with Mao tsu Tao in China.

However, in this moments, no one gives a damn about mao. Even the leader of china is busy with economic planing.
Mao is just a figure with nice pictures. No one mourns their leader anymore.

As in Russia, there is still some stalin lover. It is a protest and pride. Russia is never been greater, since the time of stalin.

[Mediocrates]

mr takeo sir
"We have drug addicts and prostitution in France, but certainly not more than in Israel!!!"


You yourself need to either get on or off drugs or take a refresher course at your local communist agitprop school. You lose street cred when you make statements that are patently looney.

Raw numbers like this are hard to derive because it's not clear what you mean by drug addict, which drugs, what kind of use and whether related figures like selling are mixed in. so let's look at prison populations. FWIW the French Ministry of Health puts the number of addicts at 100-150K while the Ministry of Social Affairs puts this number at 150K-300K

www.lse.ac.uk/Depts/lsehsc/papers/Discussion_Papers/DP14.PDF

In France as in the US at least half of all criminal prosecutions are drug possession/trafficing cases. So if as you say the drug problem in Israel were 10x greater than in France accounting for the 10x differential in population then on a normalized basis, for comparison's sake there would be approx 10-14% of the total population behind bars, for drug charges alone or about 600-840K incarcerated persons. Now if we look at this link:

http://www.1uptravel.com/country-guide-study/israel/israel194.html

We find that the total non Intifada prison population is about 8,400 (1987 #'s) - Even if population grows 5% GAGR the total population today would be ~17,460. This is (2x)2.9% of the projected number you assume even at the lower end. So clearly the problem is not 'as bad as' in France. Now if we work backwards and use a ratio of 300k/60million and project that on the total Israeli population one would expect to see 30,000 addicts buyt according to this the number is only 2/3rds of that or about 20,000 and this is a rather hard line anti drug site that wants to draw attention to the 'problem'.

So by all measures the problem, comparitively speaking is somewhat less than that in France.

[cerulean]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/perspective/chi-0206230412jun23.story?coll=chi%2Dnewsopinionperspe ctive%2Dhed

The article quotes an Iranian woman as saying only 10% or so support the "Death to America" side, but the article then points out that this portion of the population has great political power.

[Mediocrates]

That's cool - if 10% of Americans say death to Iran let's work from the premise that they're in the senior ranks of the government and the army. :mad:

[Iori Yagami]

Originally posted by christian


Indeed, stalin is very popular. It is same with Mao tsu Tao in China.

However, in this moments, no one gives a damn about mao. Even the leader of china is busy with economic planing.
Mao is just a figure with nice pictures. No one mourns their leader anymore.

As in Russia, there is still some stalin lover. It is a protest and pride. Russia is never been greater, since the time of stalin.
You misunderstood the point. He was trying to portrait Ho Chi Min, a tyrant and a dictator, as some of a beloved leader, because he was popular. Well, dictatores are generally VERY popular at their countries, and that was the point here. Stallin killed 30 million russians, yet they still mourned him.

[Pushtak18]

Ho Chi minh was no heroe,
nor is the Ayatollah regime
Nor is Arafat and
Nor is anyone who puts there own fleshin people to death!

[takeo]

Nor is Sharon!

Stalin was popular because he improoved the life of average Soviet-citizens, made the Soviet-Union a world-power and won against the nazi's.
His crimes only came to the surface when Khroutchev took power.
Ho chi Minh is still popular in Vietnam.
Not all leaders or all dictators are popular, for example the last Shah of Iran was very unpopular...

I never said Khomeini is my hero, i despise him as much as you do...

OK, mediocrates, i should have consulted some information on the net, you could be right, I'm not a specialist, yet i meant in proportion of course...
and no, i don't use drugs, except the usual joints from time to time... (as most êople here under 30, Amsterdam is near indeed ;) )
But i am quite sure that pushtak has some problems, might be drugs or something else...

Turkey isn't a beautiful society, ever heard of PKK, Kurds, military coups, economic decline, unemployment, corruption (all turkish parties have connections to the maffia, some years ago some major politicians died in a car accident, and guess who died too in the same car... some major drug dealer maffiosi wanted by interpol...), massive human rights abuses... etc.
most of this problems exist in Iran too, but Turkey is certainly not a great example...
i would rather say Greece, which wasn't 20 years ago any better than Turkey or Iran but today they have reached the economic and political level of other southern European countries and left Turkey far behind...
actually i have been to Istanbul, and to Trabzon, Erzurum and to Kars near the Georgian border. it's a very nice region, almost Alpine, it doesn't remind you of the Middle east.
perhaps there are more drugs addicts in iran, but in Turkey the problem is more visible on the streets.
sure, france is responsible for all the problems in Israel...


the fact is that neither the shah nor the current regime were democratic and both were repressive, so it makes no sence to say that one was more democratic than the other...
The Shah had many years to proove he was a democrat, he never did so...

"do you want to live in a society that HATES and teacher to HATE and is hostile all the time??? "

this is not a monopoly of Iran, the "axis of evil" speech was a hate-speech too, and weren't the americans learned to hate the Russians during the cold war?
and israeli as well, you are a product of it...

"There is 2 choices in Iran today, either the young will take over and wipe everything out, or 20,000 people will be shot to death! ITs your choice (actually it isn't but thats what gonna happen thanks for your ignorance). "

:rolleyes:
My preferate choice would be something very different... yet i have no vote, the iranian people prefere to support Khatami and the reformists, 80% voted for them, so we have to respect their choice.They certainly don't want any foreign military intervention (neither do i, it's never a good solution, except in extreme cases such as genocide or war).

I was not talking about the government policy (in that case israel isn't a civilised country either, using car-bombing etc. ), but about the people... most of them can read and write, everyone has a house, electricity and has food, and the situation of women is rather good compared to other countries in the region. it isn't like afghanistan or pakistan (or india or africa), which aren't civilised countries according to me i think.

[Mediocrates]

You act like the conflict of two fundamentally opposed strata in Iran is a stasis of sorts. There is no way this can happen. It will result in either grinding oppression or civil war. I'm afraid you still see the world through the eyes of the historical doctrine of communism and it.s purported inevitability.

[cerulean]

Coincidentally, this article today from the BBC:

Monday, 25 June, 2001, 20:23 GMT 21:23 UK
Iran 'losing war on drugs'

By Iranian affairs analyst Sadeq Saba
A senior Iranian official has warned that the government is losing the war on rising drug addiction in the country.

The increase in the use of heroin is causing particular concern

The head of the state welfare organisation, Dr Gholam-Reza Ansari, told a press conference that Iran had six million drug users, almost 10% of the country's population.
...
=========

[takeo]

"You act like the conflict of two fundamentally opposed strata in Iran is a stasis of sorts. There is no way this can happen. It will result in either grinding oppression or civil war. I'm afraid you still see the world through the eyes of the historical doctrine of communism and it.s purported inevitability"

talking about communism, the political situation in Iran nowadays is quite similar to the situation in the soviet-union in the 80's, as elke already noticed...
according to the old doctrine of communism the system would fail to reform and popular resistance would lead to a revolution.
But i think in this situation it's more complex, because the reformist part of the regime is supported by the overwelming majority of the Iranians, and the differences between the two wings are not big enough to cause a real schisme. It's more or less comparable to the differences between the republican and democrat party, or more accurate between Berlusconi and the left in Italy, serious differences, but not totally opposed either.

[Thought]

If Turkey is a great secular country, why is its gender empowerment measure rank #63, which may be found here (http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/indicator/indic_165_2_1.html), second to last (behind Egypt) among each of the rated countries?
Iran isn't rated, so it is hard to compare Turkey with Iran there, but for the percentage of seats held by women in parliament, Turkey has 4.2%, which is slightly higher than Iran's 3.4%. That information may be found at http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/indicator/indic_167_2_2.html

Obviously, neither country is decent.

[Thought]

Also, I should mention that Turkey is #82 on the Human Development Index, and Iran is #90. Those numbers are displayed on both of the two links included.

[Iori Yagami]

Originally posted by takeo
Nor is Sharon!



Sharon may not be an incarnation of mother Theresa, yet I haven`t yet seen Sharon sending his own people to suicide bomb, or calling jewish terrorrists "martyrs". Open your mind takeo, there is more to the world than the pallies and arafat, and there is much more then your own rather narrow minded view.

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
sure, france is responsible for all the problems in Israel... I've always thought it's the other way round ;)

[takeo]

"Sharon may not be an incarnation of mother Theresa, yet I haven`t yet seen Sharon sending his own people to suicide bomb, or calling jewish terrorrists "martyrs". Open your mind takeo, there is more to the world than the pallies and arafat, and there is much more then your own rather narrow minded view."

no, but he was co-responsible of war-crimes in Libanon and in the Westbank. He is also a lier because he promised the israeli voters to bring peace...
equally there is more in Israel than Sharon, Bibi, extremism and Likud and war against the palestinians... open your eyes for Gush Shalom and Meretz, open your eyes for peace.

"I've always thought it's the other way round "

No, actually the brits are responsible for all France's problems, remember Jeanne d'Arc and Margaret Tatcher... and which two nations ever made a 100-year war? ;)

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo

No, actually the brits are responsible for all France's problems, remember Jeanne d'Arc and Margaret Tatcher... and which two nations ever made a 100-year war? ;)

Jeanne d'Arc I can accept, but what did Margaret Thatcher ever do to you directly? :confused:

[takeo]

we just didn't like her in France and her anti-European ultra-conservative policy! (as the brittish and us didn't like De Gaulle)

[Mediocrates]

Joan of Ark was Noah's wife, no?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Joan of Ark was Noah's wife, no?

LOL.

Anyway, Iran decides to accept aid from the United States after its latest devastating earthquake.

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=worldnews&StoryID=1131162

[takeo]

it could be the beginning of a kind of "earthquake-diplomacy" that brought Greece and Turkey closer together.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by cerulean


LOL.

Anyway, Iran decides to accept aid from the United States after its latest devastating earthquake.

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=worldnews&StoryID=1131162


What did we offer them? Bibles, BBQ and Luggage? I was wondering about whatever disaster recovery planning one can gather from reading Quran all day. 229 deaths and they need international aid? Sounds like a damn creaky country teetering on the edge.

[Pushtak18]

"Nor is Sharon!"

What did Sharon do? You guys are making it up that Sharon is a criminal? If Sharon goes to a War Crime Tribunal, so should Chirac, Shrodder, Blair, Bush, Saddam, Ghaddafi, King Mohammed, And pretty much most or all of 87% of the worlds leaders......
You understand if he never came to the picture, than the thing he would do now is probably retire??? No one would care about extraditing him for a tribunal that doesn't have any meanings or rights to! The tribunal would cause a stir and it already is causing a stir in Belgium. Its like, someone breaks his back on purpose in your hospital or your factory in Hong Kong, so you run up to Belgium and you put charges.
And also, learn one more thing...This is not a War Tribunal this is a proceeding to find Sharon Guilty and at the most compensate the people who sued it, which from what i heard today and yesterday will not happen.

"Stalin was popular because he improoved the life of average Soviet-citizens, made the Soviet-Union a world-power and won against the nazi's.
His crimes only came to the surface when Khroutchev took power.
Ho chi Minh is still popular in Vietnam.
Not all leaders or all dictators are popular, for example the last Shah of Iran was very unpopular..."

Right!!!! After Stalin used 30 million russians as "Martyrs" in WW2? After his people in places like siberia and souther russia were starving?
Are u trying to tell me how successful it was for 25-30 years in russia??? WHat happened next? it all crumbled??? Why? cause communist and socialism does not work? Arabs tried it and Arab Nationalism came and went like dust!!!!
your theorys are horrinle, If you were my student i'd give you an F for your essays.

"I never said Khomeini is my hero, i despise him as much as you do... "

If you despise, AYATOLLAH (And please use this in front of his name as he wants to be called) Khomeni? than why do you see his theoratical regime better than the shah who 99% of the Iranian dissidents that fled Iran would want to see Shah, cause in the long run he would seperate monarchy from government just like it happened in Holland, FRANCE, Spain, Norway and most of all England....... ?
It will never happen when you have a Taliban like leader laughing with his googley glasses and beard everyday in Tehran!


"i would rather say Greece, which wasn't 20 years ago any better than Turkey or Iran but today they have reached the economic and political level of other southern European countries and left Turkey far behind..."

Greece is the sick society!!!! After all, there the ones who had a huge booklet in 1970 for Human right watch condemn them (not them, there people) in the villages for practicing pogroms against jews, turks, catholics and other minorties.
I see no change in Greece and although Israel has an embassy, im not pretty keen in make good friends with Donkey-Kong Greece anytime soon, since they respect PLO and other terrorist organization and don't recognized israels right to exist, in return i don't recognize Greece 1821 liberation, nor would i be (as an Israeli) willing to help those sick sick monsters with any weapontry. Infact, in the past 3 would-be wars against greece-Turkey, Israel had immidiatley shiped a number of 20 phantom 4-e and ammunition plus tanks to beuitful Turkey.
Greece is still crying out (or there military) that it needs Israeli equipment, yet we don't work with fools like this. So forget it!
FORZA TURKIA!!!!!

"actually i have been to Istanbul, and to Trabzon, Erzurum and to Kars near the Georgian border. it's a very nice region, almost Alpine, it doesn't remind you of the Middle east.
perhaps there are more drugs addicts in iran, but in Turkey the problem is more visible on the streets. "

Turkey has special trained forces to fight drugs and places to for addicts to cope. Many of the people they caught are actually guests who come from Greece, Eastern Europe (RUSSIA) and the West in places like Canada, usa, FRANCE!!!!!, UK and sometimes Israel in that matter.
The difference between Turkey and Iran is that Iran lets the problem slip more worse.
There was less than 1 million drug users in Shahs time, after the war in 1988, people got depressed and it rose to 3, and than in 1990-1995, there was economic problems...let me remind you that Hezbollahs budget was more than all of the Recreational area in Iran and at that time, they did a cutback of 2 billion dollars in Education, which indicated how Iran spends there money wisely (RIGHT!!!).
So anyways, back to the drug addicts in Iran.......so as i was saying there are 3 million drug addicts in Iran by 1990, and it rose sharply throughout 'Irans Great Depression" and now its at around 8 million if im not mistaken and there are daily ambushes on Security gaurds in Iran by Afghani Drug lords!


"sure, france is responsible for all the problems in Israel... "

I think France is also responsible for more than Israel. I think there responsible for sticking there nose into New Orleans (USA) for being cocky about Quebec (Canada), for letting it go in Beirut (Lebanon), for caring more about Diamonds than children (Sierre Leon), for letting Regimes occupy one another and treat there own Religous type people in dispair (Liberia), and having such a criminal demonice and distruct a beutiful country and its people (Ho Chi Minh - Vietnam).
Compensate all, or one day like you said, your going to have suicide bombers walk the streets and markets of France! Would u liek that to happen or would u be scared like a girl and run back to russia?


"the fact is that neither the shah nor the current regime were democratic and both were repressive, so it makes no sence to say that one was more democratic than the other...
The Shah had many years to proove he was a democrat, he never did so... "

But the shah was going to be democratic, there was alot of change since he took power in the 50's and there was plenty more in the 70s as well as till the point where he was overthrown.
He always depated in the Iranian parliment of making a split between Monarchy and Democracy.
he was a friend to the world and to the United States, Israel, FRANCE (unfortuntely) and his people, especially women who, i must say...Iranian women are very beutiful!

"this is not a monopoly of Iran, the "axis of evil" speech was a hate-speech too, and weren't the americans learned to hate the Russians during the cold war?
and israeli as well, you are a product of it..."

THe Axis of Evil speech was for hope and many in Iran who are not speaking as well as many who live outside of Iran, not to mention the 2 million Iranian Dessendents, applauded bush and saw that he was 'serious' about Iran. Afterall, in the end he wants to make peace with them.

The Russians hated the Americans back evenly and fairly so don't give me none of that innocent look, takeo!

"My preferate choice would be something very different... yet i have no vote, the iranian people prefere to support Khatami and the reformists, 80% voted for them, so we have to respect their choice.They certainly don't want any foreign military intervention (neither do i, it's never a good solution, except in extreme cases such as genocide or war)."

People know that Ayatollah (and say this first) Khatami is an Ayatollah and still belives in not much change that the conservatives feel. Remember there was a low tunout for the voters...

"I was not talking about the government policy (in that case israel isn't a civilised country either, using car-bombing etc. ), but about the people... most of them can read and write, everyone has a house, electricity and has food, and the situation of women is rather good compared to other countries in the region. it isn't like afghanistan or pakistan (or india or africa), which aren't civilised countries according to me i think."


Israel is more civilized than France is!!!!!

[takeo]

"Right!!!! After Stalin used 30 million russians as "Martyrs" in WW2? After his people in places like siberia and souther russia were starving?
Are u trying to tell me how successful it was for 25-30 years in russia??? WHat happened next? it all crumbled??? Why? cause communist and socialism does not work? Arabs tried it and Arab Nationalism came and went like dust!!!!
your theorys are horrinle, If you were my student i'd give you an F for your essays. "

if you were my teacher i would complain about the quality of the courses...
30 million russians died because of the nazi-invasion, if Russians (soviets actually) hadn't sacrificed themselves to fight against a stronger ennemy, than many more Jews (and others) would have vanished.
During stalin was in power the Soviet-union experienced an economic boom never seen before in history, it happened at a high human cost, tough, that's right.

"If you despise, AYATOLLAH (And please use this in front of his name as he wants to be called) Khomeni? than why do you see his theoratical regime better than the shah who 99% of the Iranian dissidents that fled Iran would want to see Shah, cause in the long run he would seperate monarchy from government just like it happened in Holland, FRANCE, Spain, Norway and most of all England....... ?
It will never happen when you have a Taliban like leader laughing with his googley glasses and beard everyday in Tehran! "

the Shah was not going to install an institutional monarchy (by the way FRANCE decaptivated its last king a long time ago...), and i don't think that most iranians in exile would like to see a return of the shah-regime...

"Greece is the sick society!!!! After all, there the ones who had a huge booklet in 1970 for Human right watch condemn them (not them, there people) in the villages for practicing pogroms against jews, turks, catholics and other minorties.
I see no change in Greece and although Israel has an embassy, im not pretty keen in make good friends with Donkey-Kong Greece anytime soon, since they respect PLO and other terrorist organization and don't recognized israels right to exist, in return i don't recognize Greece 1821 liberation, nor would i be (as an Israeli) willing to help those sick sick monsters with any weapontry. Infact, in the past 3 would-be wars against greece-Turkey, Israel had immidiatley shiped a number of 20 phantom 4-e and ammunition plus tanks to beuitful Turkey.
Greece is still crying out (or there military) that it needs Israeli equipment, yet we don't work with fools like this. So forget it!
FORZA TURKIA!!!!! "

LOL
Greece is more wealthy, more democratic than Turkey, they chased their us-supported military away some 30 years ago and since they have a democracy, unlike Turkey that is not a free country.

Greece: house of freedom"Political Rights: 1
Civil Liberties: 3
Status: Free "
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2001/countryratings/greece.htm

Turkey:
"Political Rights: 4
Civil Liberties: 5
Status: Partly Free "
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2001/countryratings/turkey.htm

But of course i can understand why you prefere Tukey, oppressors of the world, unite!

Here in france drugs is imported from central asia and the middle east mostly by Turkish druglords. Turkey is a transit country, as well as iran, for afghan drugs to Europe.
I don't know so much about the drugs problem in france, iran, or turkey, but i would like to know what sources you have to sustain your claim...

france was responsible for colonialism, right, but france renounced its colonial past and liberated all its colonies, unlike israel, that's why we are no longer faced with terrorism and war.
The things you mentioned are not typical for france but for all major Western countries.

"But the shah was going to be democratic, there was alot of change since he took power in the 50's and there was plenty more in the 70s as well as till the point where he was overthrown.
He always depated in the Iranian parliment of making a split between Monarchy and Democracy.
he was a friend to the world and to the United States, Israel, FRANCE (unfortuntely) and his people, especially women who, i must say...Iranian women are very beutiful! "

he made some economic reforms but that benefitted mostly his inner circle, Iran was still a poor country, despite the oil, and he never ever initiated democratic reforms! don't forget that his family was put in power by western powers supported by petrol companies(much like the saoudi and kouweiti dynasty as well), so it's not really amazing he wasn't a democrat.
but yes, iranian women are beautiful, often with dark hair and green eyes... and very intelligent!

"THe Axis of Evil speech was for hope and many in Iran who are not speaking as well as many who live outside of Iran, not to mention the 2 million Iranian Dessendents, applauded bush and saw that he was 'serious' about Iran. Afterall, in the end he wants to make peace with them. "

I wouldn't bet on it...
iranians don't like the us and even less Israel, they don't like the ayatollahs either, but that doesn't mean that they like the us!

"People know that Ayatollah (and say this first) Khatami is an Ayatollah and still belives in not much change that the conservatives feel. Remember there was a low tunout for the voters... "

on the contrary there was a high turnout for parliamentory and presidential elections.

[Pushtak18]

"if you were my teacher i would complain about the quality of the courses...
30 million russians died because of the nazi-invasion, if Russians (soviets actually) hadn't sacrificed themselves to fight against a stronger ennemy, than many more Jews (and others) would have vanished.
During stalin was in power the Soviet-union experienced an economic boom never seen before in history, it happened at a high human cost, tough, that's right."

It did and remember, for some time the Russians were friends with the Nazis back in the 1930's......
But on another sense, I think just like Arafat today, Stalin pushed his people to death. He sacrificed his people. Yes; the method did work, but i think there was more options on the table than having villages after village massacred by Germany or poisoned with mustard gas!
Soviet had a economic boom, but it never lasted long. The 1950's were great for the russians, but as you come to Russia or to the CIS today you will see the houses that were once built with honour and now a work of shame!

"the Shah was not going to install an institutional monarchy (by the way FRANCE decaptivated its last king a long time ago...), and i don't think that most iranians in exile would like to see a return of the shah-regime..."

Im not saying that they do, im saying that they want democracy period. To have Ayatollah Khatami in power doesn't mean much to them. It means a stall for what the PEOPLE really want which is a true democratic Iranian state. Even if you have reform and change there is still a theoratical rule in Iran that must be put to an end. A. Khatami doesn't do much because he is an Ayatollah, he sees no hope to change his country, but instead make a few minor changes to the lifestyle...its could, but people want more!
About Shah, like i said.....I think that the Iranian people (like the Afganis) would welcome shah, but not as a FULL POWER MONARCHY, it would want something like the English Monarchy or Dutch Monarchy....a Monarchy that doesn't have much power..but is still running the country.

"Greece is more wealthy, more democratic than Turkey, they chased their us-supported military away some 30 years ago and since they have a democracy, unlike Turkey that is not a free country."

Like Turkia and the PKK, Greece has its hands full with the November 15 revolutionary organization that will try to overthrow the government and put something like it...
And you talk about democracy???!?!?!!? Many of the original founders of the group were kidnapped and never heard from again.

Not to mention GREECES support for PLO and the base for other smaller terror groups inside Athens. I think in a large perspective, Greece was a partial blame for letting the Lebanese Civil war go on, since they were the ones who actually had the haven for people to go live and execute orders 200 miles away in Greece. Other than that, Greece has a wildfire occasionally and it damadges there economy, whereas theres alot of bio-tech companys in Instabul where's you see absolutely no skyscrapers in Greece. Plus not to mention the over control of the NAZI-ORTHADOX-GREEK church which pretty much manipulates and gets away with anything. If your fed up with hearing about cardinals and priest touching little kids gentiles, than go to Greece and learn more about it!! Those Greek perverts! No wonder Israel would never recognize them in Jerusalem!

"But of course i can understand why you prefere Tukey, oppressors of the world, unite!"

And ofcourse i know why you choose Greece....Ignorant Nazis of the world come together to play bowling!

"Here in france drugs is imported from central asia and the middle east mostly by Turkish druglords. Turkey is a transit country, as well as iran, for afghan drugs to Europe.
I don't know so much about the drugs problem in france, iran, or turkey, but i would like to know what sources you have to sustain your claim... "

I get my sources from CIA factbook and drugfree.net.....
First of all, seeing how little knowledge you have in drug trafficking, let me just say that your claims against turkey is rather bogus and that you should listen before you make stupid consumptions.
First of all, France gets its Drugs from North Africa, more over it doesn't get it right away. It gets it from the Netherlands which is close. Along with Belgium, they can smuggle some in. Turkey is not a thresh hold for Drug lords, there is drug abuse in Turkey but not drug logistics. A place for that would be Lebanon that still allows Opium and Hashish farmers to operate in North Lebanon and the BEEKA VALLEY. So in a sense Turkey is not a target for Drugs. It has drugs, but places like Russia, Iran and the CIS are much better case they are the ones who grow it.

"france was responsible for colonialism, right, but france renounced its colonial past and liberated all its colonies, unlike israel, that's why we are no longer faced with terrorism and war.
The things you mentioned are not typical for france but for all major Western countries."

France wouldn't care about terrorism since most of the al-quida cells are in France, so probably the authoritys know 2 things, don't talk about them and dont raid them cause they don't want the 5 million devils (AKA MUSLIMS) to jump up and start maiming innocence on the street.
France has done alot of damadge and 98% of the Colonies that they had and left are all having personally conflict of there own...So in a sense, French Nazism-Colonializm does not work.
In another sense, since you call occupying of Israel...let me just add something here...We are not occupying and that is not colonizing since we didn't make an empire...if we did Iraq would be "PALESTINIANS TOO" wouldn't they. The West bank and Gaza is disputed territory and not occupied territory, thus since the 1967 war which was irrupted by Mr. Muslim-Arab states, lost, we occupied them and ressurected resolution 242 and 338 which states clearly land for peace. Its not my fault that you, your french noisy noses try to lure the UN and other bodys that there is no way other than your way, so that is why there is crisis....
so clap your hands once again for your FRENCH destruction!!
Maybe you french need a little lesson from the cult of personality? huh?

"he made some economic reforms but that benefitted mostly his inner circle, Iran was still a poor country, despite the oil, and he never ever initiated democratic reforms! don't forget that his family was put in power by western powers supported by petrol companies(much like the saoudi and kouweiti dynasty as well), so it's not really amazing he wasn't a democrat.
but yes, iranian women are beautiful, often with dark hair and green eyes... and very intelligent!"

But i think what your saying to me was pretty understandable in 1950, but in 1975 it wasn't! Iran had made many changes, but there was a sector who was poor still, nonetheless, the socioeconomic would have been prosporous for these people if the economic reforms that Shah gave was still in use by 1984?

Iranian women are kinda ugly, some are nice, but not smart!! There pretty snotty too!

"I wouldn't bet on it...
iranians don't like the us and even less Israel, they don't like the ayatollahs either, but that doesn't mean that they like the us!"

They didn't say the like this or that. They said that the Axis of Evil speech gave them hope because now they don't have hope. They don't have the opprotunity to do what you and i do. Thats why they applaud it. Sure, your right i don't have proof but there are people who are silent right now in Iran and speaking up for it..... They scared they will be imprisoned due to it.

"on the contrary there was a high turnout for parliamentory and presidential elections"

only 42% voted in the parlimentary and i think the same give or take a margin or so was for the presidential elections!

That is sad!

[takeo]

"Turkey has become known as a thoroughfare for smuggling people and drugs. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1905000/1905440.stm

"Scandal Links Turkish Aides To Deaths, Drugs and Terror"
The New York Times

http://www.diaspora-net.org/Turkey/ciller.html


"Plus not to mention the over control of the NAZI-ORTHADOX-GREEK church which pretty much manipulates and gets away with anything. If your fed up with hearing about cardinals and priest touching little kids gentiles, than go to Greece and learn more about it!! Those Greek perverts"

actually Greek priests can marry, so there are much less pedophils than in the catholic church. Why are you against the orthodox church? can't stand that some palestinians are orthodox and that the orthodox church supports their struggle, not only islam?

the greek gnp per person is around 3 times the turkish ones...

"France wouldn't care about terrorism since most of the al-quida cells are in France?" do you have any source to confirm this? it seems like you have special sources!

"France has done alot of damadge and 98% of the Colonies that they had and left are all having personally conflict of there own...So in a sense, French Nazism-Colonializm does not work. "

former Brittish colonies aren't doing much better... you are the living example...

the Westbank and gaza are occupied territory and are recognised by the whole world as occupied (yes, also by india, a bad start for your israelo-indian enpire :D ), but i'm not going to discuss that again, it has been discussed at nauseam on this forum.

"Iranian women are kinda ugly, some are nice, but not smart!! There pretty snotty too! "

you seem to have some experience...
i found the women i met mostly pretty and intelligent, yet if you're going for sex-tourism than iran is not a very wise idea...


"They didn't say the like this or that. They said that the Axis of Evil speech gave them hope because now they don't have hope. They don't have the opprotunity to do what you and i do. Thats why they applaud it. Sure, your right i don't have proof but there are people who are silent right now in Iran and speaking up for it..... They scared they will be imprisoned due to it. "

I don't pretend to know what the silent majority thinks, yet i know that iranians are not desperate enough to hope for war, they are happy to live in peace, and the country is changing in the good direction, maybe little by little, but steadily.

http://www.electionworld.org/election/iran.htm

http://www.iranmania.com/news/currentaffairs/june01/090601p.asp

LOS ANGELES, 8 June (AFP) - Local community groups hoping to draw Iranian expatriates to vote Friday in Iran's elections have been stymied as hotels have cancelled plans to host polling places under pressure and threats of boycotts from opponents of the Islamic regime.
Opponents reminded hotels -- who were to host at least seven polling places in the greater Los Angeles area -- that they were getting involved with a country that has no diplomatic relations with the United States.

One polling place was to be at the Century City Hotel in Century City. But the hotel said it decided to cancel after being contacted by some expatriate groups.

"It's our effort to stay neutral in that particular political situation," said hotel spokeswoman Katie Callahan-Giobbi.

Iranian exiles planning to vote at the Hilton Hotel in Irvine, in Orange County, will be turned away, hotel spokesman Philip Campanelli told the Los Angeles Times.

"We had an inquiry," Campanelli, the hotel's general manager, told the Times. Organizers "elected to relocate the event and haven't told us where."

There are some 1.2 million Iranians in the United States, mostly in Washington DC and Los Angeles, which is home to the largest expatriate concentration of Iranians in the world, referred to as "Irangeles" by many.

The balloting is run by expatriates and not by Iranian government officials. But many opposition groups say participating would legitimize the Tehran regime.

One exile, the general manager at an upscale restaurant in downtown Los Angeles, hopes incumbent reformist President Mohammad Khatami will win on Friday.

"He is a popular man," said Hossein, who declined to give his full name for fear of retribution from the Tehran regime.

"He is not a religious fundamentalist, not so fanatical," said Hossein, who first came to the United States in 1976 as a student.

"The other side wants to take the country back in time a thousand years."

Like many expatriates living outside Iran, Hossein is eligible to vote, but says he won't. "I haven't been following the issues closely enough," he says.

Organizers had planned to set up seven polling places in the Los Angeles region, and 42 across the United States.

According to US Census figures, there are 106,000 people of Iranian descent in southern California, but some familiar with the community say it could be at least five times that many.

This city's Iranian community has transformed parts of West Los Angeles, complete with restaurants, shops and businesses labeled in cursive Persian script.

In Beverly Hills, one out of every four students is of Iranian descent. School announcements are printed in Farsi -- the foreign language most likely to be spoken in students' homes -- as well as in Russian, Korean, Hebrew and Spanish.

"We have a mixed feeling here about the elections," said one 20-year exile who would only identify himself as "Cyrus."

"There are some who think you have to go and participate for the wellbeing of the country, that the existing president is giving a small opening to freedom."

"But others say we shouldn't vote because that would only recognize the government," said the former Tehran university instructor. "They are talking about violent demonstrations and overthrowing the government."

Many members of southern California's Iranian community arrived during and just after the revolution and have vivid memories of that chaotic time, when lives were disrupted, families split and Iran's fundamentalist regime became an international pariah.

Others have grown up here and adapted to California life, though they still feel an attachment to Iran.

"The majority think we have to solve the problem step by step and in a peaceful manner," said Cyrus. "But the older people, they still have their wounds."

http://www.iranmania.com/news/currentaffairs/june01/080601t.asp

TEHRAN, June 7 (AFP) - Around 83 percent of eligible voters are expected to participate in Iran's presidential elections on Friday, according to a poll by the state news agency IRNA published Thursday.

The agency conducted the poll exclusively in Tehran on Wednesday with 1,400 people. The figure signalled no major change from 1997, when there was a turnout of 83.29 percent.

The agency said 16 to 20 year olds -- all first-time voters -- would make the strongest showing with 89.9 percent expected to cast their ballot.

Polling in 37,000 stations starts at 9:00 am (0430 GMT) and unless the interior ministry orders an extension, is scheduled to end at 7:00 pm (1430 GMT).

More than 42 million Iranians aged over 15 are eligible to vote, six million more than in 1997. Definitive results are expected to emerge within 24 hours of the end of voting, officials said Thursday.

The vote will also be subject to a massive security operation, involving 100,000 police and 500,000 government officials.

Incumbent reformist President Mohammad Khatami, who swept to power in 1997 with around 70 percent of the vote, is facing nine mostly conservative candidates on Friday. "

http://www.iranmania.com/news/currentaffairs/june01/070601l.asp

ps: if you want to hear iranian music search for Gogoosh or Dariush, it are the most famous artists and very poetic music

[Pushtak18]

"actually Greek priests can marry, so there are much less pedophils than in the catholic church. Why are you against the orthodox church? can't stand that some palestinians are orthodox and that the orthodox church supports their struggle, not only islam?"

No, I hate them because they have there hands full of blood with what they did to the minortieis in Greece with the 1970 Pogroms. They also have a sharp-whole in Greek society...Remember, in 1999 they were the ones who tried to introduce Greek ID's that tells your Religon and Ethnic group....Out of all the countries in the world, Greece was the only country that wanted to have ID's that tells a person who is Catholic, Jew, Islam, Orthadox...
They run a Nazi Like state...
and i couldn't care less about Palestinian Orthadox or Russian Orthadox let alone Bulgarian or Armenian ones too!

"do you have any source to confirm this? it seems like you have special sources!"

Indeed i do! CNN had a couple of articles talking about a Cell that was stopped in France 1 week ago? where were u?

"former Brittish colonies aren't doing much better... you are the living example..."

True, Israel is a Colony of Britian, but its not REALLY a Colony, there was only a mandate here and there was a flock of other colonies such as ottamon, syrian and Greek (DAMN THEM) in Israel.......Yet....to your understandable, there wasn't Palestinians..how intresting!! and if you say Philistinians than it would be odd cause, Phillistinians (not PALEstinians) are Indo-Euroasians and not Arab. They never spoke a word of the filthy Language (AKA arabic) in Philistinians, nor did they have any land as well....

but there is some great developements..
Look at Australia, look at South Africa, New Zealand, AMERICA, Jamaica, and Canada which are colonies of Britain....Jealous?? Look how beutiful they turned out to be???
Whats the secret?? Go ask the Brits for a tip or two?

"the Westbank and gaza are occupied territory and are recognised by the whole world as occupied (yes, also by india, a bad start for your israelo-indian enpire ), but i'm not going to discuss that again, it has been discussed at nauseam on this forum."

Ever since 1988, the Late King Hussien said that the West Bank has no property of Jordan, thus it is not part of jordan. Due to those words, the Jordan-Israel peace initiatives of the 80;s was in a standstill and the Resultion 338 and 242 were harder than ever. But Arafat came and recognized israel and went on those 2 resultions....Thuse making the WEST BANK and GAZA strip not Occupied but disputed territory that needs to be negotiated in order for a compromise to evolve!!!!!!
GET IT?

"you seem to have some experience...
i found the women i met mostly pretty and intelligent, yet if you're going for sex-tourism than iran is not a very wise idea..."

I know plenty on Iranians, for once, you would be the joke of the town for dating them.
As for sex-tourism....since there is nearly 30,000 ho's in Tehran, i think it is or should be the capital for prositution and sex! and probably the good ol' Ayatollah regime runs some spas and health clubs! SICK SICK SICK!

"I don't pretend to know what the silent majority thinks, yet i know that iranians are not desperate enough to hope for war, they are happy to live in peace, and the country is changing in the good direction, maybe little by little, but steadily."

Sure there is peace, but people are not happy with a regime that run on theorys and not justice and peace. people see that the world has changes from 1979 and are in need of Change, thus that is why they are asking for change. The world has gotten globalized and smaller........Look at us, talking like this...they want the same....
They are being isolated because there country is drawing fear from the international community.....and you don't recognize it...

Just talk to the children and let them hear what they have to say!

[takeo]

"No, I hate them because they have there hands full of blood with what they did to the minortieis in Greece with the 1970 Pogroms."

the 1970-pogroms in Greece? huh???

"They also have a sharp-whole in Greek society...Remember, in 1999 they were the ones who tried to introduce Greek ID's that tells your Religon and Ethnic group....Out of all the countries in the world, Greece was the only country that wanted to have ID's that tells a person who is Catholic, Jew, Islam, Orthadox...
They run a Nazi Like state... "

what about israel...people who are not jewish do suffer from institutional discrimination...

http://www.badil.org/Press/1999/press59-99.htm



"Indeed i do! CNN had a couple of articles talking about a Cell that was stopped in France 1 week ago? where were u? "

so that makes you conclude that france is the main al-quaida headquarter ... by the way i never heard that information before...



"True, Israel is a Colony of Britian, but its not REALLY a Colony, there was only a mandate here and there was a flock of other colonies such as ottamon, syrian and Greek (DAMN THEM) in Israel.......Yet....to your understandable, there wasn't Palestinians..how intresting!! and if you say Philistinians than it would be odd cause, Phillistinians (not PALEstinians) are Indo-Euroasians and not Arab. They never spoke a word of the filthy Language (AKA arabic) in Philistinians, nor did they have any land as well.... "

it is not sure that palestinians came from the philistines ,but it's sure they lived in palestine since the early middle ages.


"but there is some great developements..
Look at Australia, look at South Africa, New Zealand, AMERICA, Jamaica, and Canada which are colonies of Britain....Jealous?? Look how beutiful they turned out to be???
Whats the secret?? Go ask the Brits for a tip or two? "

yeah, i'm jaelous at jamaica, poverty-struck and violent little country, and at nigeria, the most corrupted country in the world, zambia, india, sierra leone, sudan, pakistan and bangladesh are doing great too...



"Ever since 1988, the Late King Hussien said that the West Bank has no property of Jordan, thus it is not part of jordan. Due to those words, the Jordan-Israel peace initiatives of the 80;s was in a standstill and the Resultion 338 and 242 were harder than ever. But Arafat came and recognized israel and went on those 2 resultions....Thuse making the WEST BANK and GAZA strip not Occupied but disputed territory that needs to be negotiated in order for a compromise to evolve!!!!!!
GET IT? "

yes, but he didn't gave it to israel, he explicit gave it to the palestinians, which makes that's still an occupied territory and not a disputed one.




"Sure there is peace, but people are not happy with a regime that run on theorys and not justice and peace. people see that the world has changes from 1979 and are in need of Change, thus that is why they are asking for change. The world has gotten globalized and smaller........Look at us, talking like this...they want the same....
They are being isolated because there country is drawing fear from the international community.....and you don't recognize it...
Just talk to the children and let them hear what they have to say!"


did you actually read the links i provided?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
http://www.badil.org/Press/1999/press59-99.htm

More irrelevant disinformation to confuse the facts, comrade Takeo?


so that makes you conclude that france is the main al-quaida headquarter ... by the way i never heard that information before...

No, but France is an Arab colony to a great extent, and functions as the political wing of the Hizbullah.


it is not sure that palestinians came from the philistines ,but it's sure they lived in palestine since the early middle ages.

Actually, if the Palestinians would have originated from the Philistines they would have a much better claim to the land. In reality, the Palestinians originate from the Arabian desert and have arrived as squatters in the Jewish homeland approx. 600 years ago.

[takeo]

"More irrelevant disinformation to confuse the facts, comrade Takeo? "

not so irrelevant, Herr Newsguy, it prooves that palestinians were discriminated long before the start of the intifadeh.




"No, but France is an Arab colony to a great extent, and functions as the political wing of the Hizbullah. "

:rolleyes:



"Actually, if the Palestinians would have originated from the Philistines they would have a much better claim to the land. In reality, the Palestinians originate from the Arabian desert and have arrived as squatters in the Jewish homeland approx. 600 years ago."

most historians agree that they originated in the land centuries before the Arab invasion, that's why you still have a large christian majority. After the most Jews left still Arameic was spoken in the region, which was certainly not deserted, according to byzantine sources the majority of the population in the 6th century were christian... . The most probable theory is that Arabs, as in Syria, imposed their own language and religion to an old people.
Anyway, i think that a presence of 14 centuries is long enough to be legitimate citizens of the place, don't you think so?

[Pushtak18]

"the 1970-pogroms in Greece? huh???"

Indeed...in 1970 the UN made a fact-finding mission that was given 2 months and revealed that Greece committed pogroms against ethnic minorities such as turks, muslims, albanians, jews, and other such minorities......I still think its the fact-finding with no return, but it did prove that there was serious problems and issues that needed to be dealt.
Many books came out a decade or so ago, that put blame on Greek Citizens for the massacres of most of the 130,000 Jews who lived in Greece and after the Holocaust many were killed randomly...... There is a book called the "THASSOLINKI Files" which talks about 200 jews who perrished between 1950-1970 in Greece...

"what about israel...people who are not jewish do suffer from institutional discrimination..."

The same goes to Iran, Italy, Saudi Arabia and even Russia and the CIS, many people do suffer from Institutional discrimination, but your talking maybe 20-30 years ago in Israel. Right now, there is no complaints and i feel there is much progress between Israel and the other minorities......We have good relations with Druze and Bendoiuns and the Mormon, protestant and Jehov'as witness plus all those Conservative Chritians support israel and set up institution in there own country for "Friends of Israel" which i appreciate.
But Greece is worser..........
Greek parliment talks about making ID's..Just to talk about it means that something is Fishy....Its a sick society...i tell ya!

"so that makes you conclude that france is the main al-quaida headquarter ... by the way i never heard that information before..."

Go to CNN.com and find the article of "FRANCE" "Terror Cell" and you'd see that its from a week ago.
Im not saying that France is the headquarters, but if there is alot of volume on terror than i have no choice but to say that there are a cell headquarters and those FRENCH authority aren't doing nothing to protect there own citizens and there Naziolistic French Identity! There already in shame!!!

"it is not sure that palestinians came from the philistines ,but it's sure they lived in palestine since the early middle ages."

They came from the time of 960 A.D, when there was an Islamic Invasion of the holy Land. If the Palestinians aren't coming from the Philistinains than who did they come from? and why is it so intresting that Circa 2000, all of a sudden your seperating Palestinians from Arabs..... Is there a notion of dispair in the international community.
Let alone, books have been written that talked about the middle east and census as well. Like Mark Twain, who roamed the holy lands in 1815-1820, and he talked about the nature of it all..He also mentioned about it being quiet and filled with Malariya. One of the most important parts was when he said "It looks different from Egypt or the other countries, cause it doesn't have much dessert and mid-size forrests"
All in all, the ottman empire did a census in 1870's that said 20,000 people lived in Jerusalem and out of 20,000, 10,000 were jews and the 10,000 were either armenian, Arabs or Turkish!

"yeah, i'm jaelous at jamaica, poverty-struck and violent little country, and at nigeria, the most corrupted country in the world, zambia, india, sierra leone, sudan, pakistan and bangladesh are doing great too..."

Well...Other than Jamica, and INdia the rest are not commonwealth countries to the UK. but really, most of the countries that are part of the British commonwealth have turned out to be more than Britian.......Look at Canada or the US! and India is the biggest democracy..
I just wished French had the same idea..unfortunetly not!!!!!!!!!
Not even 1 french colony is O.K nowadays, all swept with wars and Bigotry!

"yes, but he didn't gave it to israel, he explicit gave it to the palestinians, which makes that's still an occupied territory and not a disputed one."

Than that is really not a fair talking, since Hussien and Co. occupied it from 1948-1967, it is there in some way. If they wanted they would have done a Palestinian state. Its kinda odd that all of a sudden after 40 years they decided its not theirs and did not make it into a palestinian state! But that was that, what is now is that both 338 and 242 never states which territory, it only states compromise to make for the "DISPUTED TERRITORY". which means "Land 4 peace" to make an agreement. Its not go back to 1967 borders and its not half you half me. It means that we'll give 90-97% of the WEST Bank and all of Gaza, which some provisional borders to be met in the long run. But for Hussien to break out in the peace process is really un-acceptable. Remember we had a truce with him and give maybe 2-3% of Jordan back to them in 1967 war....... We occupied the West bank and a little tip of the east as well!

"did you actually read the links i provided?"

Plenty!!!!
But for a start
go to www.iranian.com
which is a pro-western, pro-us, pro-france (i guess), Pro-Israel site with news and sports and all the goodies, that represents dessendents of Iran, who reside in the USA (mostly in Washington and LA).

I had a Womens liberation site, but i don't know where that was...and there are tons of Pro-Democracy sites if you look under googles!

[takeo]

"Indeed...in 1970 the UN made a fact-finding mission that was given 2 months and revealed that Greece committed pogroms against ethnic minorities such as turks, muslims, albanians, jews, and other such minorities......I still think its the fact-finding with no return, but it did prove that there was serious problems and issues that needed to be dealt.
Many books came out a decade or so ago, that put blame on Greek Citizens for the massacres of most of the 130,000 Jews who lived in Greece and after the Holocaust many were killed randomly...... There is a book called the "THASSOLINKI Files" which talks about 200 jews who perrished between 1950-1970 in Greece... "

come on, don't make such wild accusations without any proof, I'm sure if this really would have happened in Europe in would have been a world-event. Maybe the un-rapport was talking about discrimination, not murder. some nasty things happened in the civil war of the right-wing against the communist resistance, in which whole villages sympathic to the communists have been murdered, but that was in the end of the 40's.
Jews were murdered by the nazi's who occupied Greece...
by the way Greece had a very powerfull communist resistance against the nazi's, that liberated big parts of the country, the same resistance that later fought against the right-wing and their brittish and us-allies.

no, the link was about 1999...
and please don't tell me that israeli palestinians don't face discrimination, you should know better!

there haven't been any terrorist actions in France for many years, and the the french justice cares for terrorism, remember that Carlos was sentenced in France...

look at the statistics i published on this forum, in the end of the 19th century palestine was inhabited by a jewish minority of around 5%, while the overwelming majority were palestinians, muslims and christians. People lived in palestine already in byzantine times, they are the ancestors of the palestinians, before they converted to islam and adopted arab.

"most of the countries that are part of the British commonwealth have turned out to be more than Britian.......Look at Canada or the US! and India is the biggest democracy.. "

ok, let's see apart from canada, australia and GB, which member of the commonwealth is wealthy and prosperous?
nigeria perhaps? (member of the commonwealth) zambia idem, india may be the biggest democracy but a democracy in which the majority of the people earn less than 1$ a day...

"Not even 1 french colony is O.K nowadays, all swept with wars and Bigotry! "

what about Tunisia, Quebec, french guyana(which is still a part of France...)
but of course if you want to argue about the benefits of colonialism you're with the wrong guy...

after israel took the most of palestine, jordan and egypt took the rest, this became legal and recognised by the un, unlike what happened in 1967...
338 and 242 stated that israel needed to leave the territories occupied in 1967...

well, the links i provided proove that even iranians living in the us support president khatami, and that a large majority of iranians participated in the elections...

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
what about Tunisia, Quebec, french guyana(which is still a part of France...)
but of course if you want to argue about the benefits of colonialism you're with the wrong guy...


I'm very curious (maybe morbidly so) to know your views on Quebec.

[Pushtak18]

Cerulean,


sorry to interupt, but you talked about Quebec...
a couple of summers ago, i had the opprotunity to go to quebec and also Ontario....because i got family in Toronto.
And i took a bus trip with Russians to 4 citys in Quebec and Ontario (Montreal, Quebec city, Ottawa, and a small city for only whale watching)

from time to time i go to thestar.com to get some news, not an intresting newspaper! Very biased, but there was this one lady who really stands up.....i forgot her name, but she was amazing!

She talked about, Quebecors organizing a group against the so called "Occupation of Quebec"....and she said that how would Canada feel if a suicide bomber was to target malls and night clubs.........

She was a very good writer in deed......

As for Quebec, i kinda find it funny....For most of my trip, people had this blue flag and i was wondering what it was.....as for the flag issue, there is less Canadian flags in Quebec waving than in Ontario.... And most of the people in Quebec speak only French and are crazy drivers....Quebec is very religous and the streets kinda smell and i was almost runned over by this Muslim guy who drove threw a red.....

Not much to see, but i know the backround of the conflict in Quebec!

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,

"come on, don't make such wild accusations without any proof, I'm sure if this really would have happened in Europe in would have been a world-event. Maybe the un-rapport was talking about discrimination, not murder. some nasty things happened in the civil war of the right-wing against the communist resistance, in which whole villages sympathic to the communists have been murdered, but that was in the end of the 40's."

I am not!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to UN archives and see, i don't have the address nor did i ever hear about this incident first here. And at that time it was very big news. But it was only a few months and everything washed down. There was the same problems in other places like syria and tunisia and i belive Bulgaria as well, so Greece was not the only one on that list.

"Jews were murdered by the nazi's who occupied Greece...
by the way Greece had a very powerfull communist resistance against the nazi's, that liberated big parts of the country, the same resistance that later fought against the right-wing and their brittish and us-allies."

Greece as far as i know did not do much in WW2. NOt send any forces with allied troops, but were part of it.
The question arose in a book written by Mordechai Wexler, who writes about areas that was freed from Nazi Ruled Greece where most of the jews lived and later died...There was no questions about it, and there must have been answers as well.....We're talking about 80,000 or so jews.

"no, the link was about 1999...
and please don't tell me that israeli palestinians don't face discrimination, you should know better!"

The Palestinians suffer there own discrimination, not ours. Like so many people, your dealing with what had happened in the past 21 months, not realizing what really went between 1993 and 2000, and how much cooperation and free trade and other utilities of peace did both Israelis and Palestinians have. If you accuse Israel of discrimination, than tell us what you think we discriminate about, befoe you accuse us? I think France is not any better and neither is Italy and Austria...so whats your point?

"there haven't been any terrorist actions in France for many years, and the the french justice cares for terrorism, remember that Carlos was sentenced in France..."

I don't expect to be much quiet in France in the coming time. I couldn't care less on what you did to Carlos.....but your sysyem is corrupt!
When did those Algerian maniac kill 6 people?
Or do you belvie there is a conspiracy between the Concorde air disaster? Would that be a suicide mission? who knows?

"look at the statistics i published on this forum, in the end of the 19th century palestine was inhabited by a jewish minority of around 5%, while the overwelming majority were palestinians, muslims and christians. People lived in palestine already in byzantine times, they are the ancestors of the palestinians, before they converted to islam and adopted arab."

The thing is that which palestine are u talking about? You see, by the 19th century and to the maps that are available.....Palestine is all of Israel, WB, GAZA, a tip of Egypt, some of south Lebanon, some of syria and all of Jordan.
So when you make an accusation that we are a minority you might want to look at it again. After all, In what is Israel there wasn't any inhabbitants. Im not sure about places like Nazareth or Jericho but for sure, the most of Israel and especialy jerusalem had jewish inhabittants and mroe than 5 percent. There were jews who lived there since the fall of the first temple!!!!!

How can you make sense about the Palestinians ancestry? how can they be Palestinians of the Philistinians ancestry when both did not share anything in common!

You still don't get the fact that Philistinians aren't arab, never embraced islam, and are Indo-Eurosians, not Arabs, Indo-Eurosians....... I would assume if you take a Palestinians and you take a Philistianisn the bone marrow for them is different, due to the fact that the philistinian is more related to the Turk-Iran or south russians, while the Palestinian is related to the Arabs..Don't mix anything up here! There is no difference! Like i said Palestinians never claimed to be palestinians..not until they were occupied and even before they were occupied there is the same **** that there is today, on top of that, they never lobbied for a palestinian state from Jordan, so there is confusing regarding that.

"ok, let's see apart from canada, australia and GB, which member of the commonwealth is wealthy and prosperous?
nigeria perhaps? (member of the commonwealth) zambia idem, india may be the biggest democracy but a democracy in which the majority of the people earn less than 1$ a day..."

what can i say...1 dollar a day will get you an 'A'. But the thing is we have the highs and lows, yet....we made superpowers out of the commonwealth. Botswana is doing alright...... so i guess they are going the right way. So is Fiji and don't forget the lucrative Hong Kong!!!!! Missing a couple aren't we?

"what about Tunisia, Quebec, french guyana(which is still a part of France...)
but of course if you want to argue about the benefits of colonialism you're with the wrong guy..."

Tunisia is poor and still has terror groups functioning from there. Don't forget the Synagogue blast...plus there not democratic and there people live in Poverty..Unlike the Biggy big states, Tunisia doesn't have as much oil as lets say Saudi Arabia or UAE!
French Guyana is poor too!!!!!!!! And even if it gets help from French and is still is part of france its poor..How odd!
About Quebec, the place is filthy....and it goes to show how much hatres they have...I wouldn't laugh if Quebec makes suicide bombers......Montreal looks like a hell-hole...too many arabs!

"after israel took the most of palestine, jordan and egypt took the rest, this became legal and recognised by the un, unlike what happened in 1967...
338 and 242 stated that israel needed to leave the territories occupied in 1967... "

UN did not state WHICH territories it was. We gave the Sinai back on an agreement that was the on the basis of 338/242 back to Egypt....we had a huge 3% line running in Jordan....we gave it back........ And for all it cares, Israel can keep those lands, because it wasn't the one who initiated the war at first. Israel would give the land back, provisional and with an agreement when we see a real partner!!!
Should the Iranians give that block of land that it stole from Iraq or is that the other way around? you tell me? go ask your PARSI girlfriend?? Its a hell of a question, killed 1.7 Million of them...

"well, the links i provided proove that even iranians living in the us support president khatami, and that a large majority of iranians participated in the elections..."

They don't support nutting. They support Democracy or else! Khatami was a favourite but on the later front was never going to be supported due to his lack of democracy. He would bring some ease but at a price. And Iranians wouldnt sit back and wait. He is an Ayatollah and He might be easy but not that easy!

[takeo]

cerulean (are you canadian by any means? ;) ), let's say that I've never visited canada so it's not easy to express my opinion about Québec, as a French i should be supposed to support their queste for independance, but i'm not sure.
clearly Québec is not being oppressed in any possible way by the majority of anglo-canadians, and québequiens, if i'm right, had the opportunity to express their opinion about the issue of independance on several occasions...
i think if the majority of them wants so, than it should be granted, if not, they should remain part of Canada, but of course in a federal context. of course englishspeaking canadians should do some more effort to speak French, why do only the Québequiens have to be bilingual?
personally i don't like the splitting of countries according to etnic division lines, as you know already.
their French is very funny tough... what's the main difference between frenchspeaking and englishspeaking Canadians (except the language...)?

[takeo]

"I am not!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to UN archives and see, i don't have the address nor did i ever hear about this incident first here. And at that time it was very big news. But it was only a few months and everything washed down. There was the same problems in other places like syria and tunisia and i belive Bulgaria as well, so Greece was not the only one on that list. "


I didn't find them and i strongly doubt they exist... for the university i had to make some research on the political situation in the 70's...



"Greece as far as i know did not do much in WW2. NOt send any forces with allied troops, but were part of it.
The question arose in a book written by Mordechai Wexler, who writes about areas that was freed from Nazi Ruled Greece where most of the jews lived and later died...There was no questions about it, and there must have been answers as well.....We're talking about 80,000 or so jews. "

I never heard of that either, but the jews from tessaloniki and other big cities have been deportated by the nazi's.
Greece did a lot in WWII, it was occupied, yet on its own force the communists liberated more than half of the countryside.



"The Palestinians suffer there own discrimination, not ours. Like so many people, your dealing with what had happened in the past 21 months, not realizing what really went between 1993 and 2000, and how much cooperation and free trade and other utilities of peace did both Israelis and Palestinians have. If you accuse Israel of discrimination, than tell us what you think we discriminate about, befoe you accuse us? I think France is not any better and neither is Italy and Austria...so whats your point? "

my point is that Palestinian citizens of israel and jerusalem are being discriminated, and were discriminated before, during and after the intifadeh...

"I don't expect to be much quiet in France in the coming time. I couldn't care less on what you did to Carlos.....but your sysyem is corrupt!
When did those Algerian maniac kill 6 people?
Or do you belvie there is a conspiracy between the Concorde air disaster? Would that be a suicide mission? who knows? "

it was a technic problem, the attacks happened in the mid 90's, and what claim do you have to sustain your statement than france's justice system is corrupted...



"The thing is that which palestine are u talking about? You see, by the 19th century and to the maps that are available.....Palestine is all of Israel, WB, GAZA, a tip of Egypt, some of south Lebanon, some of syria and all of Jordan.
So when you make an accusation that we are a minority you might want to look at it again. After all, In what is Israel there wasn't any inhabbitants. Im not sure about places like Nazareth or Jericho but for sure, the most of Israel and especialy jerusalem had jewish inhabittants and mroe than 5 percent. There were jews who lived there since the fall of the first temple!!!!! "

that's right, but they were a small minority (except maybe in jerusalem), and the statistics were referring to the palestine West of the jordan river, the historic palestine (israel+ the occupied territories)

"How can you make sense about the Palestinians ancestry? how can they be Palestinians of the Philistinians ancestry when both did not share anything in common! "

i didn't say they were ancestors, yet it could be, people can change language, as the irish did among others, or the israeli.



"You still don't get the fact that Philistinians aren't arab, never embraced islam, and are Indo-Eurosians, not Arabs, Indo-Eurosians....... I would assume if you take a Palestinians and you take a Philistianisn the bone marrow for them is different, due to the fact that the philistinian is more related to the Turk-Iran or south russians, while the Palestinian is related to the Arabs..Don't mix anything up here! There is no difference! Like i said Palestinians never claimed to be palestinians..not until they were occupied and even before they were occupied there is the same **** that there is today, on top of that, they never lobbied for a palestinian state from Jordan, so there is confusing regarding that. "

i bet if you would ever study the dna of palestinians, they will have some jewish blood in them, Greek, arab, Turkish, roman, African, normand, western, etc.
the palestinian nation exists, even in the 19th century people there was a movement to distinguish palestinians from other arabspeaking people.



"what can i say...1 dollar a day will get you an 'A'. But the thing is we have the highs and lows, yet....we made superpowers out of the commonwealth. Botswana is doing alright...... so i guess they are going the right way. So is Fiji and don't forget the lucrative Hong Kong!!!!! Missing a couple aren't we? "

Fiji has just been the stage of a civil war, in botswana 40% of the people have aids, and despite huge mineral richness, still poverty, etc.



"Tunisia is poor and still has terror groups functioning from there. Don't forget the Synagogue blast...plus there not democratic and there people live in Poverty..Unlike the Biggy big states, Tunisia doesn't have as much oil as lets say Saudi Arabia or UAE! "

so what, living standards in tunisia are among the highest in the Arb world, without any oil, that is a downright success! tunisia is not so poor, and is fighting terrorism and fundamentalism;
about poverty, i think the tunisian standard is not even comparable to the hellish poverty and corruption in inda.(only worse in bangladesh i think...) it is more similar to Southern Europe.



"French Guyana is poor too!!!!!!!! And even if it gets help from French and is still is part of france its poor..How odd!
About Quebec, the place is filthy....and it goes to show how much hatres they have...I wouldn't laugh if Quebec makes suicide bombers......Montreal looks like a hell-hole...too many arabs! "

lol, i had this discussion already with elke, she agreed with me that french guyana has the highest GNP and highest living standard of the whole of Latin America, and certainly a lot better than the former brittish republic "Guyana"...



"UN did not state WHICH territories it was."

yes, the territories occupied in 1967...


" We gave the Sinai back on an agreement that was the on the basis of 338/242 back to Egypt....we had a huge 3% line running in Jordan....we gave it back........ And for all it cares, Israel can keep those lands, because it wasn't the one who initiated the war at first. Israel would give the land back, provisional and with an agreement when we see a real partner!!!
Should the Iranians give that block of land that it stole from Iraq or is that the other way around? you tell me? go ask your PARSI girlfriend?? Its a hell of a question, killed 1.7 Million of them... "

i don't have a "farsi" girlfriend... (not ready to wait untill marriage ;) ) and iran occupies nothing from iraq, both were loosers in that Gulf-war.



"They don't support nutting. They support Democracy or else! Khatami was a favourite but on the later front was never going to be supported due to his lack of democracy. He would bring some ease but at a price. And Iranians wouldnt sit back and wait. He is an Ayatollah and He might be easy but not that easy!"

in the letter i posted they showed their prudent support for khatami...
the conservatives didn't like his reelection, they even charged the vote with fraud... (in a futile attempt to remain controll over the croyants...)

[James]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
The letter is most likely bogus, as a matter of fact anyone could write a letter like that. If it?s pro Iran propaganda it didn?t work on me.

Better luck next time!



I don't think you will see signatures on a letter from Iran supporting the U.S.A. I wish the people of Iran wanting a better
country luck.

[elke]

Information available on the UN website only goes back to late '80s. However, here is a link to a current report on Greece from the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights
http://www.ihf-hr.org/reports/AR2002/Word%20format/Greece.doc

Similar reports from Amnesty and Human Rights Watch.

[Pushtak18]

Takeo

"learly Québec is not being oppressed in any possible way by the majority of anglo-canadians, and québequiens, if i'm right, had the opportunity to express their opinion about the issue of independance on several occasions..."

The Quebecors are oppressing there own people. Infact, there like the Palestinians, only this time they have a right and they abuse it. There is something in life that we call respect and chances and when leaders fail...theres only 2 sides there people can go to now...theres or ours!
Quebec is a French Dump!

" think if the majority of them wants so, than it should be granted, if not, they should remain part of Canada, but of course in a federal context. of course englishspeaking canadians should do some more effort to speak French, why do only the Québequiens have to be bilingual?"

The French have blown up english cafes or looted them just because there not in French. Other than that, English Canadians are suffering with those 2 way English-French labels, whereas the French speak nothing English hardly and most who speak it, speak it because they want to be successful and not some roman catholic bum drinking 4 Vodkas (Theres the Takeo Connection) in some montreal park at 2PM.

"Personally i don't like the splitting of countries according to etnic division lines, as you know already.
their French is very funny tough... what's the main difference between frenchspeaking and englishspeaking Canadians (except the language...)?"

Thats the french way, sorry to say. Chirac supports seperation!

I like to see Neo-Nazi France be split and killed both ways! :)

[Pushtak18]

takeo,

"I didn't find them and i strongly doubt they exist... for the university i had to make some research on the political situation in the 70's..."

I know they existed cause a couple of years back they talked about the situation that happened in the 1960s-1970s in Greece. As for what Elke gave you, it is pretty good and it shows how ethnic minorities are discriminated at and treated, and how hate speeches are still alive and well and alot of denial in Greece. Plus most of all the ID controversey which Greece sees as something good which is not, and just paints them as the satanic demons which love hatred and idiocracy!

"I never heard of that either, but the jews from tessaloniki and other big cities have been deportated by the nazi's.
Greece did a lot in WWII, it was occupied, yet on its own force the communists liberated more than half of the countryside."

There is still much to be discussed cause most of the neutral area where there was no occupation! Thats where most died. Many did get deported and perished, but there were some who lost there lives by the hands of Greeks. Greeks don't want to talk about it, not now ofcourse. But it came out of Hungary and the Polish's 12 years ago!

"my point is that Palestinian citizens of israel and jerusalem are being discriminated, and were discriminated before, during and after the intifadeh..."

Discriminated on the basis of what? Being Arab, sure! But this is something that has been fixed between 1980 and now! I think that if you look at an Arab GDP and an average arab in Saudi Arabia, for example than the Israeli would have around 2-4K more than him.
But what im saying is that there has been alot of change and cooperation. I think that many like the Druze are well respected and well liked and have opened there doors to the Israelis and so have the Israelis. Whereas you have people who cannot talk Hebrew, cannot communicate, are nomads, than what do you want me to do with them? If you cannot come up with a way of how Israel discriminates its own Arab citizens than why would u even make something like this up. Even in the worst of times like October 2000, where the intifhada started, Arab-Israelis took the riot inside Israel! It was a devastating thing and blow to the Israeli-Arab(Israeli) agenda.
But as time progress im sure it will be fine!

"it was a technic problem, the attacks happened in the mid 90's, and what claim do you have to sustain your statement than france's justice system is corrupted..."

Dreyfus is one of the many claims i have against French justice system, but don't worry....most of are small internal things. Like killings and drug smuggling which France couldn't care less.
Regarding Concorde...I was flattered for you to say that, after all, i was thinking you read that book from that your evil neighbour in france that makes up lies about 9/11...I just thought it was nice ot tease the long bread and cheese loving french about COncorde! Tit for that, as they say!

"that's right, but they were a small minority (except maybe in jerusalem), and the statistics were referring to the palestine West of the jordan river, the historic palestine (israel+ the occupied territories)"

Thats not statisticd of Palestine!!!! Thats not even historic. Amman and Al-Jaz Doujef is pretty historic and if you were a historian 200 years ago, you wouldn't give a clue to what was historic and what was not.
Fact is that by the 19th century, Jewish settlements and soon to be citys grew. Tel Aviv grew in 1890, and most of the Historic Israel was filled with Mahlaria.....
So in conclusion, yes; we were a minority in Palestine. But a greater majority in what would soon become Israel! I can give you 10 places including in the DISPUTED territories, that jews lived before the 19th century.
Don't mix 2 things up...you look unprofessional

"i didn't say they were ancestors, yet it could be, people can change language, as the irish did among others, or the israeli."

But that is a hypothreatical conclusion your giving me here. THe thing is that the Phillisitinians, have no certain connection to the palestinians might mean that there is no connection. Since what?? 1964, the Palestinians have started to get a name, and unfortunetly seperate them from Arabs whom even if they live in Morroco are the same kind of people. Yes; when they talk about them being philistines its only because of the name range.... Why not ask them if there closer to the Zynestines!

"i bet if you would ever study the dna of palestinians, they will have some jewish blood in them, Greek, arab, Turkish, roman, African, normand, western, etc."

Arab are arab, no matter if you mix coke, pepsi and dr. pepper...what your trying to do, is seperate Palestinians from Arabs who live in Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, etc..... Thats not a smart thing to do, infact its a bad thing to do and it will hunt you one day


"the palestinian nation exists, even in the 19th century people there was a movement to distinguish palestinians from other arabspeaking people. "

Right, a Palestinian nation that never proclaimed independence. A Palestinian nation that never had an authority (circa 1967), A Palestinan nation that doesn't have historics or when it does it makes it up. A palestinian nation that doesn't have monarchy or any governemtns, no culture except for there 'struggle'. And most of all, no real hopes for anything esle! That is the palestine you were reffering to?

"Fiji has just been the stage of a civil war, in botswana 40% of the people have aids, and despite huge mineral richness, still poverty, etc."

Where did you hear about a civil war? riples believe it or not?
Fiji has done some terrific work with the UN regarding peace keeping, and even though its a small island its a nice one and has a good tourist and coco industry!

"so what, living standards in tunisia are among the highest in the Arb world, without any oil, that is a downright success! tunisia is not so poor, and is fighting terrorism and fundamentalism;
about poverty, i think the tunisian standard is not even comparable to the hellish poverty and corruption in inda.(only worse in bangladesh i think...) it is more similar to Southern Europe. "

Tunisia is nothing better......I don't see no change and there is still an autocratic government in power. Tunisia is like Egypt, lets sum it up there?
Bangladesh is not Hindu, its muslim...go blame them and blame there genocide of 1971!!!!!!
What does Tunisia live on? if not oil?

"lol, i had this discussion already with elke, she agreed with me that french guyana has the highest GNP and highest living standard of the whole of Latin America, and certainly a lot better than the former brittish republic "Guyana"... "

Uraguay has the highest..then comes Guyanna, but its not good place to go..theres Cocaina, if you know russian

"yes, the territories occupied in 1967... "

But we gave sinai and had occupied more than just the West bank, which we gave back in a truce we made with the jordanian counterparts!!!!!!!!! And the 2 agreements states clearly about who gets the land and how it should be dealt for a final peace agreements which is Land for Peace. Not an Israeli withdrawl. First comes peace, prove, singing, trade and withdrawl! Baddabing, baddaboom!

"i don't have a "farsi" girlfriend... (not ready to wait untill marriage ) and iran occupies nothing from iraq, both were loosers in that Gulf-war."

Do you atleast have a jewish girl? And when did Iran fight in the Gulf-War? But isn't the land that Iran-Iraq fight for....Disputed? just the like Kashmir? just like Chechnya? Just like Quebec? east Timor and West Bank/Gaza strip?!!!
BOOOYA!

"in the letter i posted they showed their prudent support for khatami...
the conservatives didn't like his reelection, they even charged the vote with fraud... (in a futile attempt to remain controll over the croyants...)"

Whos they?? the same people who gets b*tched about talking against the government? The same ones that get the phone tap?
Go to the www.Iranian.com and see TRUE FREEDOM SPEAKERS for Iran.

Sure, they thank Israel, but look how Israel progressed Irans Agriculture back from 50's to 70s'!!!

[cerulean]

Hmm, the title of the thread is "Hope in Iran," and maybe I will get something related to Iran in by the end of the post ...

Pushtak, I wouldn't go so far as to say Montreal is a dump, but I have only visited it on business, and I only visited pleasant parts. I don't think that Montrealers are very religious at all in general, but you might get that impression because there are large Catholic churches all over the place. I have heard from friends that Montreal is not so pleasant now :(


Originally posted by takeo
cerulean (are you canadian by any means? ;) )


I have both Canadian and US citizenship by birth (due to having parents from two countries) and have lived in both countries. Being American has become even more important to me since 9/11.



, let's say that I've never visited canada so it's not easy to express my opinion about Québec, as a French i should be supposed to support their queste for independance, but i'm not sure.


You are probably aware of de Gaulle's famous exclamation "Vive le Quebec Libre!"

Quebec nationalism has anti-Semitic aspects, racist aspects, and just generally nonsensical aspects. The last referendum in 1995 was almost 50/50 (although some vote fraud on the behalf of the separatist side was alleged). When it was clear it had failed, the Quebec premier went on TV and blamed the loss on "money and the ethnic vote" (meaning Jews). French-speaking Quebecois mostly supported the Vichy Regime during WWII and did not want to fight on the Allied side.

The majority of "pure-laine Quebecois" (as some really call themselves) sort of favor separatism, but I think they have no clear idea how that would work anyway. The referendum was defeated because most anglophones and allophones oppose separatism.



of course englishspeaking canadians should do some more effort to speak French, why do only the Québequiens have to be bilingual?


Lots of civil-service jobs require fluency in French, even if the posting is in a region where no French is spoken. If someone lives in an area with no French-speaking people, but lots of people who speak another language, is this emphasis on French reasonable? Yet, most English-speaking Canadians accept that French is favored in this way.

In Montreal, the store clerks instantly assess whether to speak to you in French or English, before you even open your mouth :-)

In Quebec, the strict language laws are used as an instrument of oppression against non-French-speaking people. The argument, though, is that this is necessary or English would just take over.



personally i don't like the splitting of countries according to etnic division lines, as you know already.

Except that I understand you want a "Palestinian" state that is divided so as to be just for Palestinians (however they are defined). (But an Israel that is for Jews, Arabs, and some others.)



their French is very funny tough... what's the main difference between frenchspeaking and englishspeaking Canadians (except the language...)?

The French of Quebec are mostly descendants of 17th-century farmers from Normandy. I don't know if you have ever heard rural French speakers from Quebec but that would probably sound even funnier to you than French speakers from Montreal or Quebec City :) (Of course now there are also many native French speakers from North Africa, Haiti, and Africa living in Quebec.)

Main difference between French-speaking and English-speaking Canadians: more smoking and drinking by French speakers, a greater eagerness to go out to clubs, more sociable culture. This might apply more to Canadians of British descent, but even so it might be an unfair stereotype. This doesn't take into account the very diverse nature of almost every Canadian city. Canada has more immigrants proportionately than the US. Many Canadians are multi-lingual. (And some of these immigrants are from Iran - so I'm back on topic!)

Canadians make the same negative statements about Americans as you (and other Europeans) make and seem to have the same stereotypes about redneck hillbillies. Canadians perceive themselves as superior to Americans for the most part, but yet have an inferiority complex because the best businesses and universities are in the US. Canadians are concerned about being swallowed up by American culture, but run to see American movies and watch US TV shows. The average Canadian perceives himself or herself as being very polite and somewhat liberal.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Pushtak18
...
She talked about, Quebecors organizing a group against the so called "Occupation of Quebec"....and she said that how would Canada feel if a suicide bomber was to target malls and night clubs.........


The separatists had a terrorist movement going on during the early 1970s (Front de Libération du Quebec). But even so they did not target civilians, although they did not get a chance to do much other than kill a government official. There was a really harsh clampdown (the War Measures Act), some of the terrorists went to Cuba, and then the terrorism was all over. (I can't help but wonder if Takeo would have supported them, as they were definitely socialists as well as terrorists.)

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerulean
[B]
I have both Canadian and US citizenship by birth (due to having parents from two countries) and have lived in both countries. Being American has become even more important to me since 9/11.


You are probably aware of de Gaulle's famous exclamation "Vive le Quebec Libre!"

Quebec nationalism has anti-Semitic aspects, racist aspects, and just generally nonsensical aspects. The last referendum in 1995 was almost 50/50 (although some vote fraud on the behalf of the separatist side was alleged). When it was clear it had failed, the Quebec premier went on TV and blamed the loss on "money and the ethnic vote" (meaning Jews). French-speaking Quebecois mostly supported the Vichy Regime during WWII and did not want to fight on the Allied side.

come on. :rolleyes:

Lots of civil-service jobs require fluency in French, even if the posting is in a region where no French is spoken. If someone lives in an area with no French-speaking people, but lots of people who speak another language, is this emphasis on French reasonable? Yet, most English-speaking Canadians accept that French is favored in this way.

In Montreal, the store clerks instantly assess whether to speak to you in French or English, before you even open your mouth :-)

In Quebec, the strict language laws are used as an instrument of oppression against non-French-speaking people. The argument, though, is that this is necessary or English would just take over.

Lol. I think you are one of the anglo canadian, complaining french canadian. It is actually not that bad. People does have rights to access english. The situation in Quebec is nothing, comparing to the Palestinian. The Quebecors are well represented in Canadian parliaments. The last two PM(Muroney, chiretien) is from Quebec. By the way, majority of quebec does speak english. Since, employment forces majority of french to speak english.


Quebec is not even divided. People in Ontario do travel to montreal from time to time. Quebec uses the same currency as the rest of canada. Quebec has the same representation as the ontario. Bloc Quebec in the last election holds 50 seats in canada.

The French of Quebec are mostly descendants of 17th-century farmers from Normandy. I don't know if you have ever heard rural French speakers from Quebec but that would probably sound even funnier to you than French speakers from Montreal or Quebec City :) (Of course now there are also many native French speakers from North Africa, Haiti, and Africa living in Quebec.)



Main difference between French-speaking and English-speaking Canadians: more smoking and drinking by French speakers, a greater eagerness to go out to clubs, more sociable culture.

You mean Jean Chertien, Cananda's Prime Minister. HE speaks like a drunk with his french accents. :D

This might apply more to Canadians of British descent, but even so it might be an unfair stereotype. This doesn't take into account the very diverse nature of almost every Canadian city. Canada has more immigrants proportionately than the US. Many Canadians are multi-lingual. (And some of these immigrants are from Iran - so I'm back on topic!)

They should limits amount of migrants. The trouble is sensitivity of race.


Canadians make the same negative statements about Americans as you (and other Europeans) make and seem to have the same stereotypes about redneck hillbillies. Canadians perceive themselves as superior to Americans for the most part, but yet have an inferiority complex because the best businesses and universities are in the US. Canadians are concerned about being swallowed up by American culture, but run to see American movies and watch US TV shows. The average Canadian perceives himself or herself as being very polite and somewhat liberal.

Lol. I live in Canada before. Many canadian are not patriotic. Surprisely, the history lessons in canadian textbook is well representated than US. The US only have knowledge on their history and geo-politics.

The best university is located in US, such as harvard, standford, etc. In average, the university in Canada is much qualify than US.
In fact, many US firms likes to hire canadian to US, because Canadian has better education quality.

In US, as long as you have the $$$$. You can enter any university, disregarding your qualification.

[christian]

Originally posted by cerulean


The separatists had a terrorist movement going on during the early 1970s (Front de Libération du Quebec). But even so they did not target civilians, although they did not get a chance to do much other than kill a government official. There was a really harsh clampdown (the War Measures Act), some of the terrorists went to Cuba, and then the terrorism was all over. (I can't help but wonder if Takeo would have supported them, as they were definitely socialists as well as terrorists.)

It is really that bad. ONly few people is killed by bomb blast.
After Pierre Trudeu applies War measure acts. The terrorist movement diminish to zero.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by christian


It is really that bad. ONly few people is killed by bomb blast.
After Pierre Trudeu applies War measure acts. The terrorist movement diminish to zero.

You're right. I had forgotten about the bomb blasts. It was more severe than I recalled, and sadly I did not look it up before posting.

Chronology of FLQ activity (not fully vetted for possible bias): http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/chronos/october.htm

[takeo]

"Information available on the UN website only goes back to late '80s. However, here is a link to a current report on Greece from the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights
http://www.ihf-hr.org/reports/AR200...rmat/Greece.doc

Similar reports from Amnesty and Human Rights Watch."

OK, i read it, Greece certainly still has some problems because it's situated in a difficult region and as all neighbouring countries very nationalistic, but compare the reports from greece with the reports from Turkey and Israel...
i've never heard of massacres in greece in the 70's or 80's however.



"The Quebecors are oppressing there own people. Infact, there like the Palestinians, only this time they have a right and they abuse it. There is something in life that we call respect and chances and when leaders fail...theres only 2 sides there people can go to now...theres or ours!
Quebec is a French Dump! "

LOL ok, let's deport all Québequois to france, those dirty terrorists!



"The French have blown up english cafes or looted them just because there not in French. Other than that, English Canadians are suffering with those 2 way English-French labels, whereas the French speak nothing English hardly and most who speak it, speak it because they want to be successful and not some roman catholic bum drinking 4 Vodkas (Theres the Takeo Connection) in some montreal park at 2PM. "

roman catholic bum, drunks, etc. it seems you are not only racist against Arabs
i heard that French-speaking people in Québec learn English in school while this is not always the case in the other way, that's discrimination. (just as Arabspeaking Israeli have to learn Hebrew but never the other way round)




"I like to see Neo-Nazi France be split and killed both ways! "

no comment



"There is still much to be discussed cause most of the neutral area where there was no occupation! Thats where most died. Many did get deported and perished, but there were some who lost there lives by the hands of Greeks. Greeks don't want to talk about it, not now ofcourse. But it came out of Hungary and the Polish's 12 years ago! "

i 've never heard that Greeks in the resistance murdered Jews during WWII. if any different, give me some sources and i'll believe you...



"Discriminated on the basis of what? Being Arab, sure! But this is something that has been fixed between 1980 and now! I think that if you look at an Arab GDP and an average arab in Saudi Arabia, for example than the Israeli would have around 2-4K more than him.
But what im saying is that there has been alot of change and cooperation. I think that many like the Druze are well respected and well liked and have opened there doors to the Israelis and so have the Israelis. Whereas you have people who cannot talk Hebrew, cannot communicate, are nomads, than what do you want me to do with them? If you cannot come up with a way of how Israel discriminates its own Arab citizens than why would u even make something like this up. Even in the worst of times like October 2000, where the intifhada started, Arab-Israelis took the riot inside Israel! It was a devastating thing and blow to the Israeli-Arab(Israeli) agenda.
But as time progress im sure it will be fine! "

Well, actually it was not a riot but a peacefull demonstration in favor of the palestinian resistance, it is the army and jewish protestors who started the violence against this demonstration.
so according to you being "arab" or Palestinian means that you should be deprived of any rights...
OK, israeli arabs might have a standard of living higher than in some arab countries, but the same applies for the Turkish minority in greece for example, or the jews in the US (living better than the jews in Israel in general), it is not an excuse for discrimination!
discrimination happens on many levels, there is the official level, like that palestinians can't go to the army, can't apply for some jobs, and the unofficial level, which discriminates israeli palestinians in jobs, dancings, parties, etc. not to mention the daily insults on the street.



"Dreyfus is one of the many claims i have against French justice system, but don't worry....most of are small internal things. Like killings and drug smuggling which France couldn't care less.
Regarding Concorde...I was flattered for you to say that, after all, i was thinking you read that book from that your evil neighbour in france that makes up lies about 9/11...I just thought it was nice ot tease the long bread and cheese loving french about COncorde! Tit for that, as they say! "

dreyfuss was a long time ago!!! in that time most countries still had childlabour for example and no free elections, even in the West!
plains go down in the us as well, and not only because of terrorism... the same thing about killing and drugs, i think more murders get solved in france than in new York for example.



"Thats not statisticd of Palestine!!!! Thats not even historic. Amman and Al-Jaz Doujef is pretty historic and if you were a historian 200 years ago, you wouldn't give a clue to what was historic and what was not.
Fact is that by the 19th century, Jewish settlements and soon to be citys grew. Tel Aviv grew in 1890, and most of the Historic Israel was filled with Mahlaria.....
So in conclusion, yes; we were a minority in Palestine. But a greater majority in what would soon become Israel! I can give you 10 places including in the DISPUTED territories, that jews lived before the 19th century.
Don't mix 2 things up...you look unprofessional "

ok, so my statistics supported by both israeli, american and arab historians are wrong, yours (which ones?) are the only right ones...



"But that is a hypothreatical conclusion your giving me here. THe thing is that the Phillisitinians, have no certain connection to the palestinians might mean that there is no connection. Since what?? 1964, the Palestinians have started to get a name, and unfortunetly seperate them from Arabs whom even if they live in Morroco are the same kind of people. Yes; when they talk about them being philistines its only because of the name range.... Why not ask them if there closer to the Zynestines! "

if you would have visited some "arab" countries, you would know that not all arabspeaking countries are the same people or civilisation, the difference between morocco and Iraq is as between guatemala and spain, both speak Spanish and are catholic, but that's one of the few things they have in common...
(maghreb arabs are mostly from berber decensy and very different, even in their looks)



"Arab are arab, no matter if you mix coke, pepsi and dr. pepper...what your trying to do, is seperate Palestinians from Arabs who live in Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, etc..... Thats not a smart thing to do, infact its a bad thing to do and it will hunt you one day"

"A palestinian nation that doesn't have monarchy or any governemtns, no culture except for there 'struggle'. And most of all, no real hopes for anything esle! That is the palestine you were reffering to? "

they have a culture but not yet independance, because their oppressors never let them have independance.



"Where did you hear about a civil war? riples believe it or not?
Fiji has done some terrific work with the UN regarding peace keeping, and even though its a small island its a nice one and has a good tourist and coco industry! "

Fiji had a civil war around one year ago, just search "fiji" on the web and enjoy reading about the hilarious civil war in that small country, tribal men, military coups, indians and aboriginals, etc.


"Tunisia is nothing better......I don't see no change and there is still an autocratic government in power. Tunisia is like Egypt, lets sum it up there?
Bangladesh is not Hindu, its muslim...go blame them and blame there genocide of 1971!!!!!!
What does Tunisia live on? if not oil?"

Tunisia is much more wealthy than egypt, people live better, and tunisia has tourism and industry.



"Uraguay has the highest..then comes Guyanna, but its not good place to go..theres Cocaina, if you know russian "

i'm quite sure that YOU use cocain pretty often...

[takeo]

"yes, the territories occupied in 1967... "

"But we gave sinai and had occupied more than just the West bank, which we gave back in a truce we made with the jordanian counterparts!!!!!!!!! And the 2 agreements states clearly about who gets the land and how it should be dealt for a final peace agreements which is Land for Peace. Not an Israeli withdrawl. First comes peace, prove, singing, trade and withdrawl! Baddabing, baddaboom! "

peace and land should come at the same time, no independance= no peace
israel never respected the oslo-agreement since Bibi came to power.





"You are probably aware of de Gaulle's famous exclamation "Vive le Quebec Libre!" "

of course, i don't support it, i think France shouldn't interfeare in Canada's internal matters as long as there is no oppression/occupation/etnic cleansing etc.
.


"Quebec nationalism has anti-Semitic aspects, racist aspects, and just generally nonsensical aspects. The last referendum in 1995 was almost 50/50 (although some vote fraud on the behalf of the separatist side was alleged). When it was clear it had failed, the Quebec premier went on TV and blamed the loss on "money and the ethnic vote" (meaning Jews). French-speaking Quebecois mostly supported the Vichy Regime during WWII and did not want to fight on the Allied side. "

Well, i can't argue on that, as i don't know enough about the subject, yet i don't think that most quebec-people are anti-semitic etc. i think people on this board use the term "anti-semitic" quite easily without much proof or certainty.








"Lots of civil-service jobs require fluency in French, even if the posting is in a region where no French is spoken. If someone lives in an area with no French-speaking people, but lots of people who speak another language, is this emphasis on French reasonable? Yet, most English-speaking Canadians accept that French is favored in this way. "

i don't think French is favored, everyone has to learn English in the whole of canada, but not everyone has to learn French.

"In Montreal, the store clerks instantly assess whether to speak to you in French or English, before you even open your mouth :-)
In Quebec, the strict language laws are used as an instrument of oppression against non-French-speaking people. The argument, though, is that this is necessary or English would just take over. "

this appears pretty similar to the situation in belgium where the flemish minority reacts the same way as the Québequois...
but i think in both Québec and belgium, in bilingual cities people should be bilingual.







"Except that I understand you want a "Palestinian" state that is divided so as to be just for Palestinians (however they are defined). (But an Israel that is for Jews, Arabs, and some others.) "

actually i would favour a big bi-national state, yet this seems te be completely rejected by any israeli or israel-defender i know, so in that case palestine should be independant yes. Palestine should be multi-etnic, but this doesn't include immigrants who came the last decades... i'm sure that iranians who came to canada can't claim farsi as an official language for example...



"The French of Quebec are mostly descendants of 17th-century farmers from Normandy. I don't know if you have ever heard rural French speakers from Quebec but that would probably sound even funnier to you than French speakers from Montreal or Quebec City (Of course now there are also many native French speakers from North Africa, Haiti, and Africa living in Quebec.) "

i didn't hear any country-side quebequois, yet i found the accent of the peopel from montréal funny enough... like some American who speaks really good french but never lost his heavy accent!
normands are strange people, actually they are descendants of the Scandinavians, and are quite cold people (i guess in Québec too, if you consider the climate...), but their food is delicious. is it so that frenchspeaking people from haiti etc. prefere Québec because it's francophone?



"Main difference between French-speaking and English-speaking Canadians: more smoking and drinking by French speakers, a greater eagerness to go out to clubs, more sociable culture. This might apply more to Canadians of British descent, but even so it might be an unfair stereotype. This doesn't take into account the very diverse nature of almost every Canadian city. Canada has more immigrants proportionately than the US. Many Canadians are multi-lingual. (And some of these immigrants are from Iran - so I'm back on topic!) "

i had soem french friends who said that Quebec people are more sympatic (but than again as they only speak French which means they only spoke to frenchspeaking people, it can be the reason because it's always more sympathic if you can talk to someone...), i heard that Canadians in general are quite frigid, very individualistic people and very serious about their jobs, regulated and very strict, at least compared to French.
of course i always suspect such generalisations unless i visited the country myself.




"Canadians make the same negative statements about Americans as you (and other Europeans) make and seem to have the same stereotypes about redneck hillbillies. Canadians perceive themselves as superior to Americans for the most part, but yet have an inferiority complex because the best businesses and universities are in the US. Canadians are concerned about being swallowed up by American culture, but run to see American movies and watch US TV shows. The average Canadian perceives himself or herself as being very polite and somewhat liberal."

that's a typical mix of envie and fear for the more powerfull, fear of loosing ones own identity, you can see it in belgium against France as well, or in France against the US.



"I can't help but wonder if Takeo would have supported them, as they were definitely socialists as well as terrorists."

i don't know, it's the first time i hear about it...
i would not support them, because Quebequiens, even if they had righ to complain, had different means to express their dissatidfaction in a country like canada where nobody is really oppressed and there are democratic means to change things. (unlike israel for the palestinians or turkey for the kurds for example)
being socialist and terrorist is no garantee for suuces or legitimation, only in certain cases.



"You mean Jean Chertien, Cananda's Prime Minister. HE speaks like a drunk with his french accents. "

:D

"This doesn't take into account the very diverse nature of almost every Canadian city. Canada has more immigrants proportionately than the US. Many Canadians are multi-lingual. (And some of these immigrants are from Iran - so I'm back on topic!) "

ok, we got seriously off topic, some 10000 km...
i heard people from Vancouver are really nice, some recent immigrants from France (19th 20th century) mixed with the anglo-canadians, and of course a lot of jews from the Ukrain and Belarus i heard.
i know one immigrant from iran who is currently in Canada, he is trying to stay there, it was always his dream to come to canada... for many people Canada is equal with wealth, social security, jobs, and a free and open society, more so than the us.

"They should limits amount of migrants. The trouble is sensitivity of race. "

i think Canada as a sparcely populated country could need some more immigrants, surely the ones coming to canada seems to have contributed to its wealth. you are an immigrant as well Christian ;)
"


"In US, as long as you have the $$$$. You can enter any university, disregarding your qualification."

i heard the same...

[Mediocrates]

In US, as long as you have the $$$$. You can enter any university, disregarding your qualification." i heard the same...


that's **** - plain and simple.

[elke]

Takeo, in the '70s and '80s you were a baby... :D You couldn't have heard about it anyway!
I don't know if it happened, it's not easy to find since the web resources don't go that far back. Maybe, I will walk over to the UN one of these days and check with them. ;)

Greece is in a difficult region??? Why? What's difficult about Greece's region? If "difficulty of the region" was an issue, then Israel would be exculpated of EVERYTHING. Talk about difficult regions, sheesh!

[christian]

Originally posted by takeo




"They should limits amount of migrants. The trouble is sensitivity of race. "

i think Canada as a sparcely populated country could need some more immigrants, surely the ones coming to canada seems to have contributed to its wealth. you are an immigrant as well Christian ;)
"


:p Well. I am a citizen, who is paying taxes for canadian government. Problem will arise, if canada accepts too much uneducated low level labour. It takes time and resources for integration. There simply not enough jobs avalible in Canada.

I don't agree that we should open our mouth, accepting who is coming to our border.

Chinese community has contribute tremendous wealth and investment in Canada. I myself is very embarrassed at the chinese boat incident two years ago in Vancouver coast. Most of the arrivers are paid to snake heads, in search for better economic resources.

There are simply not enough resources in Canada, supporting the uneducated migrants. My family and others migrants contribute our tremendous wealth to this nation. Near the future, the chinese community will try to bridge between Canadian economy and asian economy(china,taiwan, Hk, singapore, malaysia).

For example,
Husky oil is owned by Lee kai shee (HK). Vancouver real estate developments is boasted by chinese migrants. Some chinese company is buying oil Canadian company in Alberta.

[christian]

Originally posted by takeo


"In US, as long as you have the $$$$. You can enter any university, disregarding your qualification."

i heard the same...

Mediocrates is mad. :D

mediocrates,
George W. Bush has an IQ of 120. John Kennedy fails three times in Bar examine.

Can you explain why they can admits to yale and harvard?

:D

[elke]

IQ 120 is above average. GWB did not do too terribly well at Yale, from what I've heard. Bar exam is taken AFTER law school, not before...

For majority of people, getting into the Ivy League schools is very difficult. It's even more difficult to stay there - if your grades are not up to par, you can be expelled. It may well be that people with money have an easier time getting in (Ivy League has more than 100 applicants per available seat, the last I heard); but they must meet the minimal academic requirements anyway.

[takeo]

"Takeo, in the '70s and '80s you were a baby... You couldn't have heard about it anyway! "

ok, well, let's say untill the end of the 80's i was not really interested in politics :D

"Maybe, I will walk over to the UN one of these days and check with them. "

would you really go to that arab-terrorism-sponsering ianti-semitic nstitution? isn't it dangerous? ;)

Greece is in a difficult region??? Why? What's difficult about Greece's region? If "difficulty of the region" was an issue, then Israel would be exculpated of EVERYTHING. Talk about difficult regions, sheesh!

yes, it's a very difficult region, always been, remember macedonia(ongoing civil war, claimed by albania, greece, bulgaria, yougoslavia), albania isn't a haven of stability either (regularly albanian gangs crossing the border to rob and murder, the greek minority in Albania is heavily persecuted), nor is bulgaria, and what about the ever hostile relation between Greece and Turkey who were at the brink of a war some years ago(not to mention cyprus)? Greece has the greatest military force in Europe compared to its small population, for some reason...
but still, even if both Greece, Turkey and Israel are situated in a difficult region, Greece is the only one not conducting massive violations of human rights as Turkey or Israel. Check the Amnesty international reports of all three countries, and look wich one is the shortest by far...




"Well. I am a citizen, who is paying taxes for canadian government. Problem will arise, if canada accepts too much uneducated low level labour. It takes time and resources for integration. There simply not enough jobs avalible in Canada. "

but once you were happy to be accepted in canada, right?


"There are simply not enough resources in Canada, supporting the uneducated migrants. My family and others migrants contribute our tremendous wealth to this nation. Near the future, the chinese community will try to bridge between Canadian economy and asian economy(china,taiwan, Hk, singapore, malaysia). "

well, other migrants have their benefits as well, you should not accept all of them, but closing the borders doesn't seem like a good solution to me for canada, with an aging and small population and good economic potentials.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by christian


Mediocrates is mad. :D

mediocrates,
George W. Bush has an IQ of 120. John Kennedy fails three times in Bar examine.

Can you explain why they can admits to yale and harvard?

:D

1) Can you explain why 50% of the graduate students including medical school are from outside the US regardless of ability to pay?

2) Can you explain why the US accounts for about 40% of Academic R+D worldwide?

3) Can you explain why thousands of famous and influential American politicians and scholars have come from free institutions like CCNY, CUNY and numerous state university systems on total or near total full scholarship or why Harvard has an endowment in excess of $10 billion and more people receive financial aid than do not.

4) Can you explain how YOUR educational system taught you that a statistical sample of two was valid?

[christian]

Originally posted by Mediocrates


1) Can you explain why 50% of the graduate students including medical school are from outside the US regardless of ability to pay?

2) Can you explain why the US accounts for about 40% of Academic R+D worldwide?

3) Can you explain why thousands of famous and influential American politicians and scholars have come from free institutions like CCNY, CUNY and numerous state university systems on total or near total full scholarship or why Harvard has an endowment in excess of $10 billion and more people receive financial aid than do not.

4) Can you explain how YOUR educational system taught you that a statistical sample of two was valid?

This time you are very mad. :p

[Mediocrates]

Well can you explain it or do you just like to make bland generalizations that basically amount to - there is a priviledged sector of American society which enjoys priviledge? Do the scions of Chinese Communist Party have to wait in long lines?

[cerulean]

Takeo, you'd be surprised at how many Canadians who aren't from Quebec and aren't French can speak and understand French (not as many as the other way around, of course). The difficulty is that it's much harder for a non-French-Canadian to find someone to converse with in French, and also it's more embarrassing to speak French badly than it is to speak English badly. As I mentioned, in Montreal the store clerks make an instant assessment whether someone is a francophone or not, and choose the language to speak.

There's also the question of appropriate time management. Right now, I don't think that for the average Canadian, fluency in French is as beneficial financially as fluency in some other languages. Most Canadians are required to take French in high school and also to a lesser extent in elementary school.

[christian]

Originally posted by takeo

"There are simply not enough resources in Canada, supporting the uneducated migrants. My family and others migrants contribute our tremendous wealth to this nation. Near the future, the chinese community will try to bridge between Canadian economy and asian economy(china,taiwan, Hk, singapore, malaysia). "

well, other migrants have their benefits as well, you should not accept all of them, but closing the borders doesn't seem like a good solution to me for canada, with an aging and small population and good economic potentials.

I don't agree with closing the border. In canada, many so called political asylum seeker is not political. Some one claims he has the right of refugee status. Which he is not.
My meaning for my statement is to correct the loopholes in Canada.

Immigrants in Canada should have contribution to the business activity. The current ratio of uneducated migrants are rising. We can't use all of our resources for migrants integration.

I am suggesting the policy like Singapore. In order to have a citizenship in Singapore, a migrants must have a good education and middle class income.

The singapore government prefers education, because education helps you to generate the wealth in singpore. Thus, the government doesn't neccessary spend money for migrants integration, such as welfare, benefits, housing,etc.

Takeo, correct me if I am wrong.
Le Pen is popular with 20%, because the french social system is too good. Many people doesn't want to spend their resources on migrants. Most of the arabs migrants to france for jobs, freedom and resources. Which isn't accessible to many in their own country.

When french discuss the issue of immigration. It is a very sensitive racial issue.(like Canada) Thus, the extreme right Le Pen has the protest vote from 20%.

The low education level of arabs causes crime, because the arabs can't access to good job. The long term view of sinapore immigrantion policy is correct. Without education, migrants is likely to burden the country.

[christian]

Originally posted by cerulean
Takeo, you'd be surprised at how many Canadians who aren't from Quebec and aren't French can speak and understand French (not as many as the other way around, of course). The difficulty is that it's much harder for a non-French-Canadian to find someone to converse with in French, and also it's more embarrassing to speak French badly than it is to speak English badly. As I mentioned, in Montreal the store clerks make an instant assessment whether someone is a francophone or not, and choose the language to speak.

There's also the question of appropriate time management. Right now, I don't think that for the average Canadian, fluency in French is as beneficial financially as fluency in some other languages. Most Canadians are required to take French in high school and also to a lesser extent in elementary school.

Cerulean,

do you know any french? I forgot anything. :D

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
30 million russians died because of the nazi-invasion, if Russians (soviets actually) hadn't sacrificed themselves to fight against a stronger ennemy, than many more Jews (and others) would have vanished. Where on the earth did you learn history??? No, Takeo, this is the total number (an approximation) of the dead during the WWII period, which includes both the casualties of the Nazi invasion and the victims of Stalinist terror.
During stalin was in power the Soviet-union experienced an economic boom never seen before in history, it happened at a high human cost, tough, that's right"Tough"??? Is that the official PCF position? Rings a bell, doesn't it: ah, well, the Nazis didn't treat the Jews nicely, but look at the economic revival during the Hitler era, were it not for the war, so ill-advised...

[Vic]

Originally posted by christian
This time you are very mad. :p So much for "cultural" generalisations about the polite Asians ;) :D

[takeo]

Vic, just look at the economic performance of the Soviet-union from the 20's to the 50's... it was the fastest growing economy in the world (with interruption of wWII of course) wether you like it or not. This is independant from the fact that during that period many crimes against humanity happened.

during WWII what i read is that most victims feld by the nazi-terror and millions more of soldiers, who had to fight with inferior means against a stronger enemy.
What people were killed on the other side? (except the people that were banned to Siberia for collaborating)

I think admitting people an basis of their education is quite discriminatory, i think this is not allowed here by the law.
In France we don't really suffer from new arab immigration, most happened decades ago. new people come mostly from black africa or Eastern europe, but France's immigration laws are more strict than in other countries in Europe, because we already have so many immigrants.
Le Pen's popularity is not only because of immigration and social security, people who vote for him do it because of the criminality in some neighbourhoods, because they are anti-EU, because they feel that there are too many Arabs in France (racists, it exists as well here), people who feel that France should play a more important role in the world, or just because they are not happy with the gouvernment policy, for various reasons.
in the last parliamentory elections he only got around 10% however.

"Takeo, you'd be surprised at how many Canadians who aren't from Quebec and aren't French can speak and understand French (not as many as the other way around, of course). The difficulty is that it's much harder for a non-French-Canadian to find someone to converse with in French, and also it's more embarrassing to speak French badly than it is to speak English badly. As I mentioned, in Montreal the store clerks make an instant assessment whether someone is a francophone or not, and choose the language to speak. "

ok, but isn't this normal in a sence? as a costumer you would like too to be approached in your own language? a,nd isn't it normal that in a bi-lingual country people learn the other language in school? what other languages would be more beneficial than learning French in Canada?

"and also it's more embarrassing to speak French badly than it is to speak English badly"

why? :) they won't eat you if you make a mistake i guess

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
Vic, just look at the economic performance of the Soviet-union from the 20's to the 50's... it was the fastest growing economy in the world (with interruption of wWII of course) wether you like it or not. This is independant from the fact that during that period many crimes against humanity happened.So what?

during WWII what i read is that most victims feld by the nazi-terror and millions more of soldiers, who had to fight with inferior means against a stronger enemy.
What people were killed on the other side? (except the people that were banned to Siberia for collaborating)Are you playing the fool on purpose? I assume they do teach 20th history at French schools, in case my French acquaintances are not misleading me. Or have you managed never to read a single history book except Stalin's autobiography?

[elke]

In the late '20s there was NEP, and after WWII there were NEP-like ventures for a while, when an individual could enter a business partnership with the government and a sort of "market economy" was introduced. That's where the "boom" came from, not from the Communist-style economy.

Stalin sent all sorts of people to Siberia, before the War and after, for all sorts of "reasons" other than "collaboration". Most of the military brass was either killed or in Siberia by the beginning of WWII: that's one of the main reasons Russians fought with "inferior means".

[Vic]

Takeo, I'm not much involved in the European Communist politics, I had to check the homepage of your party, http://www.pcf.fr to make sure. Its leaders condemn Stalinism over and over again. Just curious: do you belong to some specific group ("platform" or whatever) in your party? I've never met a stalinist of anything even remotely close to your age in this part of the world ;)

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
ok, but isn't this normal in a sence? as a costumer you would like too to be approached in your own language?


Yes, it's normal and actually it's very considerate of the clerks. The miracle is how good the clerks are at guessing :)



a,nd isn't it normal that in a bi-lingual country people learn the other language in school? what other languages would be more beneficial than learning French in Canada?


The efforts of Pierre Elliot Trudeau were to make Canada a truly bilingual country, by requiring all products to be packaged in both languages, making much of the civil service bilingual, etc. But the bilingualism is forced, because French will never be as necessary as English is. Bilingualism works better, I think, if the two languages are equally prominent (or equally obscure).

For financial benefit, learning Asian languages is more useful.



"and also it's more embarrassing to speak French badly than it is to speak English badly"

why? :) they won't eat you if you make a mistake i guess [/B]

Maybe it's just my insecurity, but it seems French speakers are more picky about the purity of their language. This is probably just my excuse :)

[takeo]

"Yes, it's normal and actually it's very considerate of the clerks. The miracle is how good the clerks are at guessing "

yes, it isnt written on their face i guess...


"The efforts of Pierre Elliot Trudeau were to make Canada a truly bilingual country, by requiring all products to be packaged in both languages, making much of the civil service bilingual, etc. But the bilingualism is forced, because French will never be as necessary as English is. Bilingualism works better, I think, if the two languages are equally prominent (or equally obscure).

For financial benefit, learning Asian languages is more useful."

Asian languages???
I once tried to learn cambodian, it didn't last long!
maybe you're right that Canada couldn't be equally bilingual, because more Canadians speak English, but at least every Canadian should learn the second language i think.

Here people appreciate if foreigners try to learn the language, they don't find it "obvious" as many anglophone people...


" Vic Takeo, I'm not much involved in the European Communist politics, I had to check the homepage of your party, http://www.pcf.fr to make sure. Its leaders condemn Stalinism over and over again. Just curious: do you belong to some specific group ("platform" or whatever) in your party? I've never met a stalinist of anything even remotely close to your age in this part of the world "

I know some stalinist and there is a stalinist faction inside the PCF, but i'm not stalinist, i condamn the repression, purges, etc. between the 30-50's, as well as the concentration of power and personality cult...
hé, Victor, parlez-vous le français? :)
but not everything about the Stalin-policy was despisable, especially not his industrial policy.
Elke, the "boom" came in the late 20's and 30's, when the NEP was abandoned, and was the result of the rapid industrialisation, which couldn't be more "communist style".

boom" came from, not from the Communist-style economy.

"Most of the military brass was either killed or in Siberia by the beginning of WWII: that's one of the main reasons Russians fought with "inferior means". "

maybe one of the reasons, the main reason was that the soviet-union was not yet at the same economic level as Germany and didn't have an important military industry yet and almost no airforce to speak of. let's not forget that only 35 years earlier Russia couldn't even win against japan...
the victory against the Germans was really exceptional.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
Asian languages???
I once tried to learn cambodian, it didn't last long!
But your girlfriend had to learn French, so for her sake, you should learn Cambodian, right?
I guess Cambodian is a tonal language, so pretty difficult in that respect for most westerners.



maybe you're right that Canada couldn't be equally bilingual, because more Canadians speak English, but at least every Canadian should learn the second language i think.

This is the ideal situation, of course. I think this is true for most people in Quebec (at least outside of rural areas).



Here people appreciate if foreigners try to learn the language, they don't find it "obvious" as many anglophone people...

You mean that if I try to speak French in France, no one will make fun of me (although I will deserve it)? I have always heard the opposite, but I will try it when I go.

[Mediocrates]

If you don't have a Parisian accent Parisians will pretend you're not speaking French. Instead, scream at them in German. They usually get the picture. It worked for me.

[cerulean]

Thanks, I will keep that tip in mind.

===
Back to Iran:

Some of Iran's suffering wives look to a new solution -- husband killing
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0702/01iran.html
...
Ferdows, who has been convicted of murder and sentenced to death, is one of at least 20 Tehran women accused of murdering their husbands since February. Initially, the reports of the slayings were largely unnoticed. That changed as the number rose and Iranians began to see the killings as signs of social stresses.

"Husband killing is a new phenomenon in Iran's male-dominated society. It means economic hardships and social crises are reaching a crisis point," said Mohammad Ahmadi, a sociologist.
...

Considering the population of Iran, 20 women murderers is not that high of course.

[takeo]

"But your girlfriend had to learn French, so for her sake, you should learn Cambodian, right? "

actually Khmer is one of the most difficult languages to learn, and totally different from any other Asian language, but it isn't really "tonal as Thai. i promised her however that i'll learn it "some time" ;)


You mean that if I try to speak French in France, no one will make fun of me (although I will deserve it)? I have always heard the opposite, but I will try it when I go."

Well, you should definately try, some *******s will make fun of you, that's inevitable, but don't care, most people will appreciate the effort. And enough people will be happy to offer their help ;)



"If you don't have a Parisian accent Parisians will pretend you're not speaking French. Instead, scream at them in German. They usually get the picture. It worked for me."

LOL, now i can imagine why you are so biased against France...
ps: there are very few dialects in France, only the southern accent is really different.

about Iran, watch the movies of kiarostami and other recent movies if you want to know how life in iran is, and about the poetic, dramatic and contemplative nature of the Iranians. Iranian films are always very realistic.

this is funny, capdrivers in Tijuana play iranian music because soc many iranians from LA visit the brothels...

Nice ladies, amigo?
Iranians have cornered the brothel business in Tijuana

By Kamran Behzadian
January 27, 2000
The Iranian

So I went down to southern California for a week. I was to hang out at a cousin's, go to the Iran-USA soccer game at the Rose Bowl and check out a trade show.

The game was cool. There were over 50,000 Iranians of all sorts there from an old lady in a chador to cute teens dressed like Los Vegas show girls and boys eyeing each other. Amazing how peacefully Iranians can live together in California. No one cared if the other guy was a Jew, Muslim, or whatever. They were all Iranians.

But hey, I am not writing this to tell you about the game. Nor am I going to lecture on democracy. I am here to tell you about the most popular brothel in Mexico. Why would you be interested? Well ...

It was Saturday night. The cousin who came down with me suggested we go to the Mexican border town of Tijuana to party. Partying is cheap there, you know. And it's only about a couple of hours drive south of Los Angeles.

So we drove down to the border at the very end of the I-5 Highway, parked at a lot within walking distance of the border crossing and walked across into Mexico. There were dozens of cabs waiting for riders.

We took one, got in and the cabby started the engine. Behold! The tape he was playing was Andy -- legendary southern Californian Iranian Pop singer -- singing away in Farsi. It took us a few minutes to catch on. We were dumbfounded. What the hell? A cabby in Tijuana playing Iranian music?

It turned out that so many Iranians go to the brothels in Tijuana that their managers have actually hired Iranian DJs to cater to their best customers -- repeat business thing, you know.

The cabby said because he had had so many Iranian riders, he had gotten a couple of tapes from one of the DJs. He wanted the music so he could please his customers. Besides, he liked the music because "it came from the heart".

He said almost all the male Iranians he had picked up from the border wanted to go straight to the brothels. And he expected nothing less of us. "Want nice ladies, amigo?"

Being so scientifically curious I had to check this out.

We asked the cabby to take us to the most popular brothel. So he took us to the Chicago Bar on Constitution street. And of course we tipped him well.

We walked into the bar and, sure enough, there was Iranian music on loudspeakers and bands of fat, bald Iranian men stood around talking business with the prostitutes.

I walked over to the DJ's booth by the bathroom and there he was - an Iranian guy with a big mustache doing an unmistakable Iranian gher-e kamar (fanny-swing). I said salam and he responded with a smile, waved and said "Chaakerrrreeeeeemmm!" (duuuuuude!).

We walked over to the bar and immediately were hounded by the prostitutes. They were marketing their services, but I was more interested in talking to them. (Hey, I don't pay for sex and if they want sex they ought to be paying me, for all I'm concerned.)

The prostitutes would stand around and talk to you, but you had to buy them an over-priced drink so they could fill their drink quota for the night.

Anyway, I interviewed three of the women that night. The one who left the greatest impression was Tina. Tina is a beautiful woman with long curly black hair, dark olive skin, huge black eyes, and a great body.

I said hi, and she smiled and asked: "You Irani?"

I laughed and nodded.

She laughed and got really close. She liked Iranian men.

"Irani mucho horny", she said.

But I guess we must also tip well.

She said she even knew some Farsi words.

Such as?

"Aakh joon!" (Yeah baby!)

http://www.iranian.com/Features/2000/January/Mexico/

[Vic]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
If you don't have a Parisian accent Parisians will pretend you're not speaking French. Instead, scream at them in German. They usually get the picture. What, they didn't shoot you? :D

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
Maybe it's just my insecurity, but it seems French speakers are more picky about the purity of their language. This is probably just my excuse :) My guess is that they over-compensate for their own lack of foreign language skills this way ;)

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Vic
What, they didn't shoot you? :D

No they just sort of snort and shrug in their black turtlenecks and throw the film or the cigarettes or bread or whatnot at you.

[Vic]

Oh, sorry, Takeo, my French-bashing mood. Don't mind me ;)

[takeo]

don't you know any better than those cliché's... :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

http://www.shush-its-secret.demon.co.uk/Jokes.html
http://www.unwind.com/jokes-funnies/locality/french.shtml
http://www.strangecosmos.com/read.asp?JokeID=2059


There are 316,997 other hits in Google.

[takeo]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12247

Quelle est la différence entre les américains et les pommes de terre ?

- Les pommes de terre sont cultivées


in fact we don't need anti-american (bad) jokes, if you have Bush or Clinton as a president...

[Mediocrates]

Whats the difference between a French woman and a bowling ball?


You can eat a bowling ball if you really have to.

[James]

Originally posted by takeo
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12247

Quelle est la différence entre les américains et les pommes de terre ?

- Les pommes de terre sont cultivées


in fact we don't need anti-american (bad) jokes, if you have Bush or Clinton as a president...

I have some for you. France still has unpaid war debts to the U.S.
France and most of Eorope liberated by U.S. From what i see in France, You don't have much to talk about.

[takeo]

Wow, now i'm really impressed :rolleyes:
The US still has unpaid debts to the UN.
we helped the US in their liberation-war against England...
the USSR and the USA together defeated the Germans...

multiple choice:
the newest american joke, the US wants international justice for war-criminals in the whole world, except for nationals of:

a)Yugoslavia
b) Iraq
c)Montserrat
d) the US

[Vic]

CHILDREN, STOP IT!!!

(Even if I started it, but I needn't be perfect either, do I?)

[takeo]

OK, Sir...

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic
CHILDREN, STOP IT!!!

(Even if I started it, but I needn't be perfect either, do I?)

Repeat after me: "Do as I say, not as I do" :D

[takeo]

:D

[Pushtak18]

"Wow, now i'm really impressed
The US still has unpaid debts to the UN."

The US doesn't take money from Criminals! They have there own and with 50% of the seats in the UN being muslims, than i doubt that they would give any cent! Its part of the islamic way!


"we helped the US in their liberation-war against England...
the USSR and the USA together defeated the Germans..."

Whos we???? America thoughr alone. And the USSR backed us for there own interests! But in the end we made the cold war. Cause your comrades didn't have anything better to do!

"multiple choice:
the newest american joke, the US wants international justice for war-criminals in the whole world, except for nationals of:

a)Yugoslavia
b) Iraq
c)Montserrat
d) the US"

B!!!!!!!!!!!!
And i would also put a Wild E) there because the French need there name on it.

But on any account, since Takeo - you justify resistance, than i guess Yugoslavia was risisting colonialist Kosovo, Crotian and Bosnia who wanted to rip Mother Serbia. They have the right to ambushed the villages! Your fault, like your Western European said it! :)

The UN war crimes should target the many french workers in UN refugee camps who have sexually molested and brought more depression in the camps!

I think France should be stripped some UN part!

Nazi aren't welcome! And big noses aren't too!

[takeo]

i won't bother...


"And the USSR backed us for there own interests!"

of course the US entered WWII because of pure altroism...

[cerulean]

Takeo, ordinarily I would ask you for your views on what should have been done in the former Yugoslavia so I could just take the opposite view and not have to figure it out for myself.

You spoiled that approach by having a sensible view on Quebec. Now what can I do?

[takeo]

maybe you could learn something ;)

in Yugoslavia during the 90's the US-media was really overwelmed by one-sided propaganda, this time IN FAVOR of Muslims.
in short my view: yougoslavia was a federal republic in which Bosnia, Croatia and serbia were equal republics, Kosovo was an autonomous part of serbia.
Bosnia and croatia declared independance illegally and without consulting its strong serbian minority which were discriminated. Those last ones overreacted and started a guerilla, with the aid of the yougoslav federal army. after some weeks the yougoslavs withdrawed but the guerilla-forces remained and the civil war was a fact, with horrible crimes and etnic cleansing on all sides, also the muslims and croats started to fight among eachother.
Than a hold-fire was organised in croatia but the croats abused this to build up their army while the serbs were disarmed, suddenly in violation of all agreements they invaded the serbian-held territories and etnically cleansed the whole serbian population (refugees who were not able to return, and those who stayed were murdered)
in bosnia the un sided with the muslims and croats against the Serbians, yougoslavia stopped all economic aid to the radical bosnian serbs, and nato began bombing the Serbs, with as a consequence a military defeat, which led to the Dayton-agreements.
in kosovo the albanians had autonomy untill 1989 but started massive violence against the Serbian minority (untill the 19th century kosovo had a serbian majority) to achieve full independance, which led to the suspension of their autonomy.
the conflict remained because the serbian government only wanted to discuss the restoration of autonomy but not independance, while the separatists wanted indepandance.
in 1998 a terrorist organisation called kla started to attack military vehicles and serbian villages, they got staunch support from the us and Germany, and the serbian army was condamned because they shelled villages were the terrorists were hiding, however according to the bbc-documentory "kosovo" the massacre of racak was a set-up and the bodies were killed guerilla.
the serbians were no longer able to fight the guerilla, if not nato would start bombing. there was a conference in rambouillet, on which the serbs (and the russians and chinese) agreed to autonomy under un-administration, but the us (madeleine albright) and most european countries insisted on nato-controll and a referendum on independance. yougoslavia didn't accept this and the bombardments started, in violation of the un-charter (veto of russia and china in the security council). 100's of 1000's of albanians started to leave their villages, because of fierce fighting, bombing and because the serbian population took revenge on the albanians, there were also orders by the military command of the kla to leave the villages in order to facilitate the fightings and create international attention for the separatist case . the yougo's resisted much stronger than presumed, so nato started attacking civilian infrastructure such as television-buildings, economic targets, etc.
finally milosevic accepted nato-rule for kosovo (but no referendum) and nato occupied kosovo, which had as a result the return of most albanians and a massive etnic cleansing of the serbian and all other non-albanian minorities (gypsies, Turks, macedonians, muslims). first some russian troop came before nato-troops in pristina, which pleased the serbians but enraged nato and the albanians. a very dangerous situation... but yeltsin ordered his troops not to fight nato and retreat to the airport.
afterwards the serbian government transferred milosevic to the Hague in return of some billion $ of aid (which were promised in return of milosevic but which never arrived in belgrade...), even if the reformist president (the one who defeated milosevic during the last controversial elections) was strongly opposed to the The Hague tribunal and even if it was illegal according to serbian laws.
Nowadays the economic situation in yougoslavia has worsened and the new government is ineffective due to large-scale corruption and infighting.

the international tribunal of The hague is mostly persecuting Serbians, some Croats, but no albanians or NATO-members who committed alleged war-crimes in the 1999-war...

i didn't mention montenegro because that would make the situation TOO difficult for a starter...

some interesting similarities with the conflict discussed on this board, don't you think so?

[christian]

Originally posted by takeo
maybe you could learn something ;)

in Yugoslavia during the 90's the US-media was really overwelmed by one-sided propaganda, this time IN FAVOR of Muslims.
in short my view: Bosnia and croatia declared independance illegally and without consulting its strong serbian minority which were discriminated. Those last ones overreacted and started a guerilla, with the aid of the yougoslav federal army. after some weeks the yougoslavs withdrawed but the guerilla-forces remained and the civil war was a fact, with horrible crimes and etnic cleansing on all sides, also the muslims and croats started to fight among eachother.
Than a hold-fire was organised in croatia but the croats abused this to build up their army while the serbs were disarmed, suddenly in violation of all agreements they invaded the serbian-held territories and etnically cleansed the whole serbian population (refugees who were not able to return, and those who stayed were murdered)
in bosnia the un sided with the muslims and croats against the Serbians, yougoslavia stopped all economic aid to the radical bosnian serbs, and nato began bombing the Serbs, with as a consequence a military defeat, which led to the Dayton-agreements.
in kosovo the albanians had autonomy untill 1989 but started massive violence against the Serbian minority (untill the 19th century kosovo had a serbian majority) to achieve full independance, which led to the suspension of their autonomy.
the conflict remained because the serbian government only wanted to discuss the restoration of autonomy but not independance, while the separatists wanted indepandance.
in 1998 a terrorist organisation called kla started to attack military vehicles and serbian villages, they got staunch support from the us and Germany, and the serbian army was condamned because they shelled villages were the terrorists were hiding, however according to the bbc-documentory "kosovo" the massacre of racak was a set-up and the bodies were killed guerilla.
the serbians were no longer able to fight the guerilla, if not nato would start bombing. there was a conference in rambouillet, on which the serbs (and the russians and chinese) agreed to autonomy under un-administration, but the us (madeleine albright) and most european countries insisted on nato-controll and a referendum on independance. yougoslavia didn't accept this and the bombardments started, in violation of the un-charter (veto of russia and china in the security council). 100's of 1000's of albanians started to leave their villages, because of fierce fighting, bombing and because the serbian population took revenge on the albanians, there were also orders by the military command of the kla to leave the villages in order to facilitate the fightings and create international attention for the separatist case . the yougo's resisted much stronger than presumed, so nato started attacking civilian infrastructure such as television-buildings, economic targets, etc.
finally milosevic accepted nato-rule for kosovo (but no referendum) and nato occupied kosovo, which had as a result the return of most albanians and a massive etnic cleansing of the serbian minority. first some russian troop came before nato-troops in pristina, which pleased the serbians but enraged nato and the albanians. a very dangerous situation... but yeltsin ordered his troops not to fight nato and retreat to the airport.
afterwards the serbian government transferred milosevic to the Hague in return of some billion $ of aid (which were promised in return of milosevic but which never arrived in belgrade...), even if the president (the one who defeated milosevic) didn't agree to this and even if it was illegal according to serbian laws.
Nowadays the economic situation in yougoslavia has worsened and the new government is ineffective due to large-scale corruption and infighting.
i didn't mention montenegro because that would make the situation TOO difficult for a starter...

Your point of view is very true.

The point of kosvo war is to rip the Yugoslavia aparts. In other words, Nato and US want to expand their influnece in the eastern europe.

The ethnic cleansing is just a propanganda of the west, drumming for the kosvo war. US and nato always use this card, justifying their support.

[Mediocrates]

How is intervening in a rapidly distintegrating political non entity scorched by 10 years of incomprehensible warfare a play for increased US influence? Yuogslavia was already ripped apart and had been eating itself for a decade before Kosovo. What influence has the US or it's allied garnered. We're back to where we started; 3 different peacekeeping forces: the UN, the EU and NATO all squabbling for relevance and serving to do little more than hire tons of locals and prop up the economies. The US was literally dragged into Bosnia and Kosovo after years of do-nothing-ism. The political risks of having US troops die on the ground to do something that the administration could not explain, strategize let alone justify kept us on the sidelines for years . In the interim UN troops puttered around looking for their chain of command and political instructions.

The Balkans have been a US, EU, UN, NATO drunk monkey rodeo from the get-go. There is an unlimited number of hidden agendas, confused instructions, cross purposes, poor communication, muddled strategy, political obfuscation and screwed up field actions. That's why we fell back on bombing them. You don't need to order bombs around or explain anything. They drop, they go boom, that's it. It makes Vietnam look like Swan Lake.

[takeo]

"Nato and US want to expand their influnece in the eastern europe. "

that's absolutely right...

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by takeo
i won't bother...


"And the USSR backed us for there own interests!"

of course the US entered WWII because of pure altroism...


First off if you do edit something then at least correct the spelling. Second WTF are you talking about?

[takeo]

"The Balkans have been a US, EU, UN, NATO drunk monkey rodeo from the get-go. There is an unlimited number of hidden agendas, confused instructions, cross purposes, poor communication, muddled strategy, political obfuscation and screwed up field actions. That's why we fell back on bombing them. You don't need to order bombs around or explain anything. They drop, they go boom, that's it. It makes Vietnam look like Swan Lake."

I agree, yet i think there was a strategy behind all this, to weaken the influence of Russia on the Balcans (by defeating the Serbs, traditional allies of Russia (and recently china)
the potential for trouble was always there in the region, but the us and the eu, by siding against or for particular parties and helping them (the muslims, croats and albanians, versus the bosnian, Yougoslav and croat serbs) enhanced the conflict.

[christian]

Originally posted by takeo
"The Balkans have been a US, EU, UN, NATO drunk monkey rodeo from the get-go. There is an unlimited number of hidden agendas, confused instructions, cross purposes, poor communication, muddled strategy, political obfuscation and screwed up field actions. That's why we fell back on bombing them. You don't need to order bombs around or explain anything. They drop, they go boom, that's it. It makes Vietnam look like Swan Lake."

I agree, yet i think there was a strategy behind all this, to weaken the influence of Russia on the Balcans (by defeating the Serbs, traditional allies of Russia (and recently china)
the potential for trouble was always there in the region, but the us and the eu, by siding against or for particular parties and helping them (the muslims, croats and albanians, versus the bosnian, Yougoslav and croat serbs) enhanced the conflict.

Sadly,
German and France have agreed to Nato intervention. which is unnecessary.

The common perception in europe is to weaken the russian influence. Gradually, they are weaken the Russian influence in ME. However, the EU never realize in this process. They are creating another anti-imperialism culture called islamic fundamentalist. Islamic fundamentalist basically fill the vaccum of the broken of soviets empire. In fact, islam and russia have cordial relationship more than ever.

China is basically supporting with Putin(chechya), because EU and US create a further division among russian and china's provinces.

Before 9-11, bush concentration is on east pacific coast. Thus, the CIA reports is ignored. The adminstration priority is not in the terrorism war. It is on east pacific coast. The CIA and FBI are actually the scapegoat of the bush adminstration.

After 9-11, bush adminstration reverse the policy of east pacific coast. They turn the attention on ME and Terrorism. The crisis in Israel further off track the original priority eastern pacific strategic interest. The US basically agrees silently with Russia on Chechya. In return, Russian will agree US strategic presence in the eastern europe. Moreover, US will give aids to the eastern unexplored oil province of Europe.

Next year, US will likely attack Iraq for ME strategic interest. After, they succeed. Iraq will provide cheap oil to US oil companies.

[cerulean]

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen070802.asp
Turning Point
History being made. The West appears clueless.

Two bombs were found last week in downtown Tehran, one in an automobile in front of the Judiciary Ministry, the other at the intriguing "Council of Deciding What is Best For the Government." Dozens of anti-government organizations are calling for peaceful demonstrations on July 9, Tuesday, the third anniversary of the monster student rally against the regime at the university, and an army officer, thus far anonymous and perhaps even apocryphal, is widely quoted as having said "if a million people demonstrate July 9th we shall arrest the leaders of the Islamic Republic and turn them over to the people."

That is probably too much to hope for, given that the entire Western world is actively appeasing the Iranian tyranny. The European Union recently lifted trade sanctions on the Islamic Republic, and the misnamed U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva failed to condemn Iran, even though its many gross violations of human decency fill a fat dossier.
[...]
Tehran is under virtual military rule, with new security organizations seen in the streets carrying out random roadblocks, arrests, and beatings. Similar reports are coming in from other cities, although details are sparse. There are also reports of governmental attacks on clandestine explosives deposits and manufacturing sites.
...

[Pushtak18]

Something funny to hear,


that Iran has called on upon the UN and EU human rights commision to penalize and obstruct Israel into giving 4 Iranian citizens who were abducted in 1982.

Sources in Iran say that there has been some Hezbollah prisoners who saw them in jail in Israel, but still...Israel has proof that they never seen them and they never even abducted them
Infact, it was the chritian Militia who done that. They were the ones who suspected the 4 as Revolutionary Gaurds, took them to a headquarters and lynched them. The remains are mysterious..but still.....

Shouldn't the Iranian regime be penalized for there role in the kidnapping of Israelis???

Funny, isn't it?

[James]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerulean
[B]http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen070802.asp
Turning Point
History being made. The West appears clueless.

[FONT=arial]Two bombs were found last week in downtown Tehran, one in an automobile in front of the Judiciary Ministry, the other at the intriguing "Council of Deciding What is Best For the Government." Dozens of anti-government organizations are calling for peaceful demonstrations on July 9, Tuesday, the third anniversary of the monster student rally against the regime at the university, and an army officer, thus far anonymous and perhaps even apocryphal, is widely quoted as having said "if a million people demonstrate July 9th we shall arrest the leaders of the Islamic Republic and turn them over to the people."

I agree, this is a great story! I hope the students turn Iran upside
down.

[takeo]

nice story, however I think it will not happen, more likely it's a tool to pressure the conservatives in the Iranian regime to give in, as were the previous student demonstrations as well.

[cerulean]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/world/1487162

July 9, 2002, 12:04AM
Tehran court convicts dancer
Iranian American on family visit tried for 'corrupting youth'
Copyright 2002 Houston Chronicle News Services
TEHRAN, Iran -- A popular Iranian-American dancer who returned to Iran for the first time since fleeing two decades ago has been convicted of corrupting the nation's youth through classes and performances he gave in the United States.

A Tehran court has barred dancer Mohammed Khordadian from leaving Iran for 10 years and from teaching dance classes.
A Tehran court prohibited Los Angeles resident Mohammed Khordadian, 46, from leaving Iran for 10 years, barred him from giving dance classes for the rest of his life and banned him from public celebrations or weddings of nonrelatives for three years. He was also given a 10-year suspended sentence.
...
===
Not surprisingly, this ruling is making immigrants to the US reluctant to return for a visit.

[takeo]

the courts are the only field of society on which the conservatives still have a solid grip on power, unfortunately.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
the courts are the only field of society on which the conservatives still have a solid grip on power, unfortunately.

Maybe if you don't count the military and several other branches of the Iranian government that are firmly controlled by the ruling Islamic repressive regime.

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,


Last few posts you made really good statements that i really appreciate! :)


As for Iran and the courts....

the problem is that you can't reform tottally because you need to legislate a bill or a ruling.... The conservatives on the court own everything.


Reform in Iran is just a term used, not an action. Reformist are the puppets of Conservatives!

[takeo]

The military is nOT fully controlled by the conservatives (as the quote above shows), nor is the political power (moderates controll the parliament, most regional administrations, etc.)

The parliament can make reformist laws, the only problem is that the revolutionnary guard can block them, but the old guard is loosing their grip on power, even rafsanjani joined the moderates.
Those reactionarry court-rulings can be seen as the last stronghold, a desperate attempt to keep grip on a modernising society. Still, the struggle inside the regime isn't over yet.