Where is the Noble Side of Norway and Other Nations?

[Batman]

What Are The Psychological/Cultural Reasons for Anti Israeli and Anti Semitism? :confused:
The article below demonstrate that even Kosher Slaughter is forbidden by Norwegian law. Why should this matter to the Norwegian government? What is this affliction called Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israel? What are the motivations behind some of the nations' policies and their great need to suppress the Jews and push for the Jews'/ Israel's demise in the most extreme ways.

The article:

Why I won't be seeing the fjords this summer
By Bennett M. Epstein May 20, 2002

http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0397.htm

On the heels of Mr. Roed-Larsen's now-infamous remark that Israel "ceded all moral ground" in Jenin, comes word from his home country of Norway that some supermarket chains have decided to place special identification stickers on products from Israel. Other Scandinavian countries may follow suit. The Norwegians say the stickers do not constitute a "boycott" of Israel; they just want their customers, who are overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian, to pay attention to where these products are produced.
Maybe the rest of us should run down to our local supermarkets with a pad of yellow "post-it" notes so that consumers of Norwegian salmon or Jarlsberg cheese can also pay attention to where those are produced. Stick them on the packages with a note: these products come from a place with a shameful past that continues to operate as a European free zone for Neo-Nazis and other right wing extremists.

Those asking the question of whether Europeans are anti-Israel because of Israel's actions in fighting terror, or because of their own latent anti-Semitism, should study the example of Norway.

Behind the current disclaimer of a boycott you will find that Norwegians are quite experienced at boycotting Israel. Norwegian labor unions have recently refused to off-load Israeli farm produce. Last year, a Norwegian "labor youth movement" organized a campaign to ban Israeli singers from the Eurovision song contest. Another Norwegian group has been boycotting Israeli oranges since the early 90s. This group, "Boikott Israel," rejuvenated by the latest "Intifada" to include a boycott of all Israeli commerce, denies on its website that it is anti-Semitic but states that its goal is the end Israel's "50 year occupation" of, and the return of all refugees to, a "free Palestine." Not anti-Semitic? In 1941, the graffiti on Jewish businesses in Oslo read: "Jews, go to Palestine." To campaign now in Norway to get the Jews out of "Palestine" seems anti-Semitic to me, if only by process of elimination.

Indeed, the roots of Norwegian boycotts of Israel run deep. Anti-Semitism has held a unique place in Norwegian politics since the 1930s when Vidkun Quisling, later the leader of a Nazi puppet government in Norway, formed the National Union Party. While many Norwegians fought with the Resistance, many became eager collaborators of the Nazis, including some 60,000 members of the National Union. Under its auspices, Norway formed its own branch of the SS and established academies sending hundreds of officers each year to the German military. One very active neo-Nazi group in Norway today is the Institutt for norsk okkupasjonshistorie (Institute for the History of Occupied Norway), composed of descendants of members of the Quisling party, the Waffen SS and others dedicated to cleansing their wartime reputation.

The aspect of the holocaust in Norway that was particularly Norwegian was the liquidation of Jewish property, much of which was divided up by Quisling and his followers. When the war ended, the Norwegian reparations commission shamelessly accepted doctored figures kept by the Quisling government in order to reject most Jewish claims and avoid paying others more than pennies on the dollar. Then in 1997 a new commission, appointed after a journalistic expose of the injustice of the first commission, issued a report, which actually recommended adherence to the earlier decision. However, a scandal erupted when it was discovered that an organization of former Nazis had provided a scholarship to a researcher on the new commission. The Norwegian prime minister ultimately intervened and compelled the government to accept a dissenting report.

Today, neo-Nazi propaganda, band concerts and other events are commonplace in Norway. Norway's ultra right-wing groups play host to gatherings of like-minded groups from Sweden and Denmark with little fear of official interference. More significantly, according to a report published by the Stephen Roth Institute of Tel Aviv University, the extreme right wing Progress Party is the second largest party in Norway with 25 out of 160 seats in the Parliament. Among other racist and anti-immigration views, this party advocates banning male circumcision. Schechita (kosher slaughter) is already forbidden by Norwegian law.

Given their past and present history, Norwegians are hardly qualified to accuse any other country of having ceded "moral ground." Their warning stickers on Israeli goods are the modern-day equivalent of painting "Joden" on the Jewish-owned businesses of Oslo and Trondheim in 1941. We needn't be reminded that after that, all of Norway's remaining Jews were deported to Auschwitz. Fewer than 30 survived the Holocaust.

I'm not the sort that usually pays attention to boycotts and counter-boycotts, because often you don't know who you are really hurting. But there is a good reason why I won't be buying Norwegian products any time soon, or cruising on the Norwegian Line. Their stickers have caught my attention.

Views expressed by the author do not necessarily reflect those of israelinsider.

[Morpheus]

The only reason why you shouldn't go to Norway is because it's do damn expensive. I have my doubts on the credibility of this article, but anyway, Norway has got enough tourists, if you don't want to visit a country just because there are some principles which you don't like, than you can indeed better stay at home in NY.

[Batman]

Perhaps if your bottom which most likely weighing your head down - was on the line and your life was at stake you'd have more sympathy and try to heed the warnings and not pretend (sounds like 60 years ago to me) that nothing of the sort is possible in precious good old anti-semitic Norway ...
Where have you been lately? Out, far out in those good old (Jewish) Einstein theoretical worlds of space!

Wake UP!!! You need COFFEE!

[Batman]

"Variety Magazine" yesterday May 29:

"Local presenters in Sweden and Belgium urged viewers not to cast votes for the Israeli entry, Sarit Haddad, in the Eurovision Song Contest.
Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, is incensed at their actions.

Apparently, some of Europe's cultural elite cannot forgive Israel for defending herself against homicide bombers and terrorists, said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

The stench of appeasement of terrorism in Europe has now infected a competition that over the decades has given voice to songs of peace and hope”, he continued.

Meanwhile, in France, Haddad received 10 out of a maximum 12 from French voters...

"ANTI-ISRAEL CAMPAIGN INFECTS EUROVISION COMPETITION (http://www.wiesenthal.org/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemID=5779)

[elke]

Meanwhile, in France, Haddad received 10 out of a maximum 12 from French voters...

Rather peculiar, wouldn't you say? Would that be due to the "fallout" from the LePen fiasco?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Morpheus
The only reason why you shouldn't go to Norway is because it's do damn expensive. I have my doubts on the credibility of this article, but anyway, Norway has got enough tourists, if you don't want to visit a country just because there are some principles which you don't like, than you can indeed better stay at home in NY.

Well I'm thinking of mounting a grass roots campaign to dissuede people from vacationing in Europe. How much of Europe's economy is tourism based? So far I've been able to convince 6 families to change their plans. That's 22 people who are spending their tourist dollars somewhere else like Australia, NZ and Mexico and domestic cruises instead. To the tune of ~$75,000.

[Batman]

Swedes, Belgians told not to vote for Israel in Eurovision

By Ha'aretz Staff Ha'aretz 26 May 2002

The Belgian and Swedish Jewish communities were left fuming by last night's Eurovision song contest, held in the Estonian capital of Tallinn, after their local presenters advised viewers not to vote for Israel's entry, Sarit Hadad.

Swedes watching the national TV1 station said that the presenters announced before Hadad appeared that Israel was not even meant to take part in the contest "because of what it is doing to the Palestinians."

The Swedish jury did not award any points to Israel. Belgian viewers were also advised not to vote for Israel. Its jury however awarded Hadad two points.

Hadad, who sang "Light a Candle," finished 12th with 37 points. The Latvian song "I Wanna" won the song contest.

Due to the Israeli song's ranking, Israel will participate in next year's contest, to be held in Latvia.

Yoav Ginai, who wrote the lyrics for the Israeli song, told Israel Radio that the delegation was very pleased with the result. "This is a great achievement in light of the difficult situation, and the political nature of the vote," Ginai told the radio.

The Israeli delegation, he said, encountered anti-Israel remarks during their week-long stay in Tallin. "We heard very unpleasant remarks at the hotel and during rehearsals," Ginai said.

[Batman]

Grass roots works!

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by Mediocrates


Well I'm thinking of mounting a grass roots campaign to dissuede people from vacationing in Europe. How much of Europe's economy is tourism based? So far I've been able to convince 6 families to change their plans. That's 22 people who are spending their tourist dollars somewhere else like Australia, NZ and Mexico and domestic cruises instead. To the tune of ~$75,000.

One of the organizations that i belong to is considering focusing on Norway and the European Union in terms of its summer rally/protest activites.

If the EU and Norway does not back off of its current handling of Isreal, they will find themselves the target of a very ferocious and bitter campaign of which they have never seen.

I will not divulge specifics here, but suffice to say, the public in the US will b made aware of the hypocracy and cowardliness found in current european doctrine. I will exploit the US public's intrinsic dislike of european elitism to its fullest thru rallies, protests, media coverage, and many more aggressive activities.

Anyone who supprts israel and travels to europe or knowingly purchases products from the EU at this stage is a traitor, plain and simple.

[L@mplighterM]

Here I'll share an email:

Shalom
I have read your letters - yours and ____ - and although I agree to
some of your points - there're some matters that we do not agree about. One thing is that both you and Bennett Epstein have some historical errors, another that it's quite obvious that you and I don't live in the same world. Let me
explain
what I mean about this last statement.

I am a member of the Norwegian Labour Party and the
youth organization
AUF. I
am also a member of the Labour Union and I am an
active member of all
these
organizations. Over the last five years I have noticed
a growing anti -
Jewish
attitude in these organizations - the Labour Union in
particular.
Please notice
that I am using the term anti - Jewish and not
anti-Zionist,
anti-Semite or
anti Israeli - which seams to be the most popular
terms regarding this
issue.

I have met a lot of prejudice, the word ?Jew? is being
used as a swear
word -
at the same level as ?Satan?, old myths about the Jews
and capitalism
(not so
much) and there of course we have the story of the
brave little
Palestinian
people struggling every day to survive while the Jews
are trying to
wipe them
of the face of the earth.

Where does this come from? Of this I am very certain -
this is the work
of
people with a past from good old AKP (m-l) and with
the cooperation of
the
Norwegian press - who would love a good case so they
can sell more
copies of
their paper. Strategically placed people as reporters
and labour union
representatives or party members - they are trying to
influence the
opinion of
the people in Norway - and they have succeeded very
well. If this is
organized
or not - I don?t know but it sure looks that way. I
can send you a list
of more
than 20 old AKP (ml) members to prove my point. In the
1970?s many of
these
persons were also members of the different support
organizations for a
free
Palestine. They know what they are doing and this time
the media is on
their
side.

I have heard over and over again people comparing
Israel with
nazi-Germany -
and I am shocked about this. I have heard from a
newspaperman (who is
my
friend) that the Jews are exaggerating the numbers of
killed Jews in
WW2 - the
figure is not 6 millions, but much less. And this is
an educated man -
but with
sympatize to the Left.

I can go on and on about this. I don?t think that you
have noticed how
the
Norwegian Left has moved more and more towards an
anti-Jewish attitude.

We are not talking months, ____, we are talking about
years - I have
noticed
this from 1997.

The transport union has started their boycott of
Israeli goods. They
have in
Oslo been going through the grocery stores looking for
Israeli
products. They
found nothing - but if they had - they would have
boycotted these
stores. This
is one of the more influential labour unions - so do
not under estimate
what
they are and what they are capable of.

I have seen such a sticker once and several leaflets
spread by Red
Youth -
stating what they believe is the truth - and this is
not in our favour.

You are also wrong when you say ?There is no
widespread neo-Nazi
activity in
Norway today - because there are. I have a friend who
runs an internet
place
called "Nazism exposed" and he says that they are
stable and on the
move. There
are about 400 - 1000 active members - and I don?t call
them a ?very
tiny
fringe group?.

Then we have what you are saying about Vidkun
Quisling. There were
about 30
Norwegians that were executed by the Norwegian
government in the period
1945 -
1948. Quisling was quite right one of the first - but
the last was
Ragnar
Schancke in 1948 - after sitting on Death Row for more
than 3 years.

Yes - it?s true that a lot of people in Norway hated
Vidkun Quisling -
but he
had his followers as well - more than 50.000
registered as members in
the hay-
day?s of the party in 1942/43 and more than 100.000
persecuted by the
legal
authorities after the war.

In the last neo-nazi marching more than 300
participated and this was
last
year - not many years ago.

The leader of the Labour Union in Norway has urged a
boycott at several
occasions - the latest at the yearly meeting of the
union (yes - she
was a very
active AKP member in her youth).

You are quite right about The Progress Party of
Norway. The strongest
supporter of Israel in the Norwegian National Assembly
is Jan Simonsen
(ex-
Progressive Party).

I have at least two newspaper articles saying quite
the opposite about
feeling
safe in Norway - written by two Norwegian Jews.

Quisling was a product of his time - a time were both
political
authority,
press and the industry was against Jews. Do not think
that he came from
nowhere. And he was not the worst Jew hater in his
party - there were
several
that were much, much worse.

[Mediocrates]

The simplest explanation is also the truest. Israel was formed to create a safe haven for Jews fleeing Europe. That the process hasn't ended yet is not entirely important. The creation of the state of Israel was based in part in the treatment of Jews in Europe. All over Europe. Not just Bavaria or Austria or Vichy France or Poland. All of Europe. The only reason we we have any sort of discussion revolving around places like Norway is because there are about 1100 Jews living the whole country. With numbers that small no nation however virulent in these modern and progressive days is going to mount a pogrom against 1100 people. So they snipe and cower and complain to the press and hang nasty signs and talk about how ****ing evolved they are.

Simply put, Europe has ended as a place for Jews to maintain a community. But in the meantime Oz and NZ have Jewish communities that albeit small, have doubled in size in the last 20 years.

We should look at the current situation as a transitional one and with an ultimately safe and secure Israel, there should in the next generation or two no longer be any need for Jews to reside in Europe. Then all the Europeans can go back to public Jew hating and proclamations in a continent absent of Jews. The level of antisemitism will explode of course since the worst form of it exists in places with no Jews, but there will be few to zero Jews who might suffer for it.

[Batman]

Why I won't be seeing the fjords this summer
THIS HAS BEEN CIRCULATING ON THE NET SINCE MAY 20

On the heels of Mr. Roed-Larsen's now-infamous remark that Israel "ceded all moral ground" in Jenin, comes word from his home country of Norway that some supermarket chains have decided to place special identification stickers on
products from Israel. Other Scandinavian countries may follow suit. The Norwegians say the stickers do not constitute a "boycott" of Israel; they just want their customers, who are overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian, to pay attention to where these products are produced. Maybe the rest of us should
run down to our local supermarkets with a pad of yellow "post-it" notes so that consumers of Norwegian salmon or Jarlsberg cheese can also pay attention to where those are produced. Stick them on the packages with a note: these products come from a place with a shameful past that continues to operate as
a European free zone for Neo-Nazis and other right wing extremists.

Those asking the question of whether Europeans are anti-Israel because of Israel's actions in fighting terror, or because of their own latent anti-Semitism, should study the example of Norway.

Behind the current disclaimer of a boycott you will find that Norwegians are quite experienced at boycotting Israel. Norwegian labor unions have recently refused to off-load Israeli farm produce. Last year, a Norwegian "labor youth
movement" organized a campaign to ban Israeli singers from the Eurovision song contest. Another Norwegian group has been boycotting Israeli oranges since the early 90s. This group, "Boikott Israel," rejuvenated by the latest
"Intifada" to include a boycott of all Israeli commerce, denies on its website that it is anti-Semitic but states that its goal is the end
Israel's "50 year occupation" of, and the return of all refugees to, a "free Palestine." Not anti-Semitic? In 1941, the graffiti on Jewish businesses in Oslo read: "Jews, go to Palestine." To campaign now in Norway to get the Jews out of "Palestine" seems anti-Semitic to me, if only by process of elimination.

Indeed, the roots of Norwegian boycotts of Israel run deep. Anti-Semitism has held a unique place in Norwegian politics since the 1930s when Vidkun Quisling, later the leader of a Nazi puppet government in Norway, formed the National Union Party. While many Norwegians fought with the Resistance, many
became eager collaborators of the Nazis, including some 60,000 members of the National Union. Under its auspices, Norway formed its own branch of the SS and established academies sending hundreds of officers each year to the
German military. One very active neo-Nazis group in Norway today is the Institute for norsk okkupasjonshistorie (Institute for the History of Occupied Norway), composed of descendants of members of the Quisling party, the Waffen SS and others dedicated to cleansing their wartime reputation.

The aspect of the holocaust in Norway that was particularly Norwegian was the liquidation of Jewish property, much of which was divided up by Quisling and his followers. When the war ended, the Norwegian reparations commission
shamelessly accepted doctored figures kept by the Quisling government in order to reject most Jewish claims and avoid paying others more than pennies on the dollar. Then in 1997 a new commission, appointed after a journalistic
expose of the injustice of the first commission, issued a report, which actually recommended adherence to the earlier decision. However, a scandal erupted when it was discovered that an organization of former Nazis had provided a scholarship to a researcher on the new commission. The Norwegian
prime minister ultimately intervened and compelled the government to accept a dissenting report.

Today, neo-Nazis propaganda, band concerts and other events are commonplace in Norway. Norway's ultra right-wing groups play host to gatherings of like-minded groups from Sweden and Denmark with little fear of official I interference. More significantly, according to a report published by the Stephen Roth Institute of Tel Aviv University, the extreme right wing Progress Party is the second largest party in Norway with 25 out of 160 seats
in the Parliament. Among other racist and anti-immigration views, this party advocates banning male circumcision. Schechita (kosher slaughter) is already forbidden by Norwegian law.

Given their past and present history, Norwegians are hardly qualified to accuse any other country of having ceded "moral ground." Their warning stickers on Israeli goods are the modern-day equivalent of painting "Joden" on the Jewish-owned businesses of Oslo and Trondheim in 1941. We needn't be
reminded that after that, all of Norway's remaining Jews were deported to Auschwitz. Fewer than 30 survived the Holocaust.

I'm not the sort that usually pays attention to boycotts and
counter-boycotts, because often you don't know who you are really hurting. But there is a good reason why I won't be buying Norwegian products any time soon, or cruising on the Norwegian Line. Their stickers have caught my attention.

[Vic]

From two personal sites from Norway:


Norwegian Unions declared hostile to Israel
http://home.online.no/~vvalberg/archive/2002-05-May.htm#Norwegian_Unions_declared_hostile_to_Israe l_

Ridiculous Norwegian Reds Actually Taken Seriously by Government
http://www.fredriknorman.com/archives/mt/000486.php#000486

[cerulean]

Someone posted his personal correspondence regarding the boycott issue and related topics with the Norwegian government on his web site:

http://jlapidus.tripod.com/norway

It looks like the trade unions are indeed calling for a boycott of Israeli goods, but the government is not. Also Coop Norge is not calling for a boycott, contrary to some reports.

http://www.coop.no/om_coop/nyheter/19692.htm

The net result of reading that correspondence was not entirely reassuring.

[Vic]

I have seen and heard more correspondencies, discussions etc. on the issues than I can count. They have all one problem in common: the Jewish/Israeli side makes reproaches but never presents simple and realistic demands. Given the communication culture in this part of the world, an invariable drawback: one should always be able to tell the other side not only how it shouldn't act, how much it hurts your (but never it's own) interests etc., but also present your expectations in a clear way - and stick to them.

[Batman]

EU Releases Aid to Palestinians

06/19/2002 3:31 PM EDT

By PAUL GEITNER

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - European Union lawmakers voted Wednesday to release $17.7 million in aid to the Palestinians that had been held up over accusations some of the money was going to fund terrorism.

The vote included a demand for disclosure about how the money is spent. It came after EU external affairs commissioner Chris Patten defended efforts to track the more than $1.3 billion spent in the past decade on projects in the occupied territories.

"We have found no evidence of EU funds being used for any purposes other than that for which they were intended," Patten told the European Parliament's foreign affairs committee.

He also said the committee risked undermining the EU's credibility if it blocks assistance that had been approved last year by the 15 member states.

"If we turn our back on this, any words about Europe having a part in the Mideast peace process are pretty worthless," he said.

The committee put off its vote two weeks ago following charges that some EU money had been used to fund weapons or support terrorist activities.

Investigators from the European Commission, which administers EU aid, met with Israeli government and security officials and sought comment from the International Monetary Fund, which monitors EU payments and reports monthly on whether conditions are being met.

Patten conceded that corruption in Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority and other problems made it impossible to know where every euro finally ended up.

"It's an impossible question to ask in the real world," he said. "We are doing everything we can do and will follow any other constructive advice."

The measure calls for Patten to make additional efforts to provide what chairman Elmar Brok called "full transparency and full information" about where EU money is spent.

"We can't send out the message that whatever happens, however much tensions escalate, Europe carries on paying," said Armin Laschet, a German conservative.

Since June 2001, EU aid has included $9.4 million a month in budgetary assistance to the Palestinian Authority to make up for Israel's refusal to hand over customs and taxes it collects on the Palestinians' behalf.

Patten argued that by preventing the financial collapse of Arafat's "legitimate" administration, which was established under earlier peace accords, the EU "has prevented even greater chaos and anarchy" by helping to ensure the continued delivery of health, education and other services.

"If there is to be a Palestinian state, there has to be a Palestinian Authority," he said, describing the EU as promoting reforms toward a "free society and free market."

Most committee members expressed satisfaction with the investigation, while pushing for even stronger vigilance.

The lone opponent to the measure, Olivier Dupuis, complained that the West has been too willing to back authoritarian regimes in the Arab world, especially since the Sept. 11 attacks, to win support in the fight against al-Qaida.

"This is the opposite of the message we should be sending to the Arab people, which is support for democracy," he said.

[peacelover]

I cannot speak for Norway, but did any of you stop playing the victim long enough to consider that maybe the reason European people dislike Israel is due to Israel's actions, plain and simple?

We're not stupid.

We can see right through statements such as "Apparently, some of Europe's cultural elite cannot forgive Israel for defending herself against homicide bombers and terrorists"

Can you really not see the flaws of the above statement? Can you honestly not?

That statement represents the fundamental lack of understanding of people's grievances with Israel. Israel is going to have to do better than some fancy words like that.

If you want to defend Israel, fine, but I do get a little tired of people assuming it's down to anti-semitism as an excuse to avoid the real issues.

People also tire of this:

"The stench of appeasement of terrorism in Europe"

"these products come from a place with a shameful past that continues to operate as a European free zone for Neo-Nazis and other right wing extremists."

"Then all the Europeans can go back to public Jew hating and proclamations in a continent absent of Jews. The level of antisemitism will explode of course since the worst form of it exists in places with no Jews, but there will be few to zero Jews who might suffer for it"

Well, I guess it eases the pressure to label an entire continent anti-semitic just because they don't ignore the independent human rights reports that come from the Middle East.

The above threee quotes are examples of nothing short of PROPAGANDA

A lot of people in Europe are sympathetic to the anti-semitic cause - you should have seen the outcry at Le Pen's description of the holocaust as a 'footnote of history'.

But I can tell you one thing for sure. Millions of Europeans died fighting the Nazis, without which, I doubt if there would be any Jews left. many war veterans are still alive, many are still alive who lost people they loved.

So this unrelenting desire to blame the entire continent does not go down well. It really doesn't.

'Sorry millions of you died fighting against the nazis, but actually, you had it coming cos you caused it'

That's essentially how it comes across.

And this fanatical exaggeration that the modern day situation canbe compared to the 1930s and 1940s - well maybe my history's bad, but I thought a lot worse happened than that Israeli goods had a label stuck on them.

Living in Europe, I can promise you that you are fuelling anti-semitism with these ill-advised remarks.

Sorry if you don't like the sound of that - but it is the truth.

And I maintain that you are sheltering yourselves from the reality of you insist the only reason for not liking Israel is anti-semitism. We're just get our sources from human irghts organistaions, rather than from the IDF

[Mediocrates]

So this unrelenting desire to blame the entire continent does not go down well.

As opposed to blaming Israel and Zionism, generally.

It really doesn't. 'Sorry millions of you died fighting against the nazis, but actually, you had it coming cos you caused it'

So what do you resent most, anger or ingratitude? Or is it resentment and therefore blaming the victim?

Living in Europe, I can promise you that you are fuelling anti-semitism with these ill-advised remarks.

Do wish we were still court Jews or is that an outright threat?

[elke]

And what exactly do these "human rights" sources you listen to say about the following:

1. Bombings of pizzerias
2. Bombings of religious observances
3. Mob lynchings
4. Using ambulances to transport explosives

Let's stop here. Looking for this information will keep you well occupied for a long time, because they say little or nothing.

Once you are done with those, we can continue with more.

[peacelover]

Amnesty.org

"Amnesty International today condemned the deliberate attacks in Jerusalem and Haifa which killed at least 25 Israeli civilians including four children, and left more than 200 wounded.

A suicide bomb in a crowded pedestrian precinct in Jerusalem around midnight on 1 December was followed by a suicide car bomb 10 minutes later. These two incidents killed 10 Israelis and wounded around 70. On 2 December a suicide bomb on a bus in Haifa killed 15 people and wounded 38 people.

The attacks were claimed by Hamas.

"These attacks are horrifying and tragic," Amnesty International said. "We call on armed groups to end immediately the direct targeting of civilians which contravenes the most fundamental principles of humanity."

"Amnesty International strongly condemns the killing of civilians in a suicide bombing on Sunday 25 February 1996 and calls on Hamas to stop such bombings.

We utterly condemn this appalling attack, said Amnesty Internationals Secretary General Pierre Sané, who recently led a delegation to Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

The deliberate and arbitrary killing of civilians can never be justified in any circumstances. We call on Hamas and other armed opposition groups to stop such attacks immediately...

A bomb shattered a commuter bus in Jerusalems main shopping street, Jaffa Street, shortly before 7am, killing 25 people, including the bomber. At least 15 of those killed in the attack were civilians. A second suicide bomb in a booby-trapped car 50 minutes later killed two people, including one woman soldier who was waiting at a bus stop and hitchhiking post used by soldiers returning to their bases after the weekend. The second victim may have been the bomber. At least 80 people are said to have been wounded in the two attacks. Responsibility for the bombings has been claimed by the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) an Islamist movement opposed to the Palestinian Authoritys peace agreements with Israel.

The bombings were said by Hamas to have been carried out in reprisal for the killing of a Hamas member, Yahya Abu Ayyash, said to have made bombs used by suicide bombers in the past, who was killed in Gaza on 5 January 1996 by a booby-trapped telephone. The killing was thought to have been carried out by Israeli intelligence services although the Israeli Government has not claimed responsibility or denied involvement in the attack.

No action can ever justify the deliberate and arbitrarily killing of civilians, said Amnesty International. The right to life is a fundamental right which must be respected by all. There has to be an end to such acts of carnage."

Moving on to HRW:

"Yet again, suicide bombers have deliberately targeted civilians-this time a crowded rush hour bus carrying schoolchildren and office workers starting their day," said Hanny Megally, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch. "When Palestinian groups violate the most basic international law in order to draw attention to their own plight, revulsion is the only appropriate response; any other message is lost."

Human Rights Watch has repeatedly called on Palestinian leaders to stop the attacks and bring those responsible to justice.

Yesterday's attack is the most deadly since a March 27 suicide bombing in Netanya that killed twenty-eight people at a Passover meal. Hamas also claimed responsibility for that attack."

"Human Rights Watch condemned the December 12 attack by armed Palestinians on a bus near the Israeli settlement of Emmanuel, in which ten Israeli civilians were killed and twenty-nine injured, and called for those responsible to be brought to justice. "We condemn this horrific act as a violation of the most basic principle of international humanitarian law, the absolute prohibition against targeting civilians, " said Hanny Megally, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch. "The fact that those attacked live in settlements that are illegal under international law does not make them legitimate military targets."
Yesterday's attack followed a spate of suicide and other bomb attacks against Israeli civilians by members of Palestinian armed groups and Israeli military attacks on Palestinians suspected of planning or carrying out attacks on Israelis. Two Palestinian suicide bombers also mounted an attack yesterday near the Neveh Dekalim settlement in the Gaza Strip, killing themselves and wounding four others."

I could go on.

If what you're getting at is that these human rights orgs are part of the alledged world wide conspiracy against Israel.. well, whatever helps you to sleep at night bro.

"So what do you resent most, anger or ingratitude? Or is it resentment and therefore blaming the victim?"

It's the lack of foundation for saying that the whole of Europe were Nazis. No one's asking you to be grateful, but no one will accept you saying that we didn't lift a finger against the Nazis, or that we were responsible for them.

"Do wish we were still court Jews or is that an outright threat?"

Of course it's not a threat.

I wish antisemitism would be tackled reasonably, and therefore I feel, more effectively. It won't work to label everyone who doesn't automatically agree with you an anti-semite, you'll just alientae people.

And saying criticsm of Israel is anti-semitic is nothing short of a cop-out

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by peacelover
If what you're getting at is that these human rights orgs are part of the alledged world wide conspiracy against Israel.. well, whatever helps you to sleep at night bro.

I'm glad to see those few instances of "alleged" human rights organizations finally doing anything other than their usual biased anti-Israel activism. This is a new and welcome development to know that they are being reined in.

But for you to pretend that those groups have been neutral in the past, or concerned with the human rights of Israelis is probably something you prefer to believe to help you sleep at night.

Let's rewind just a bit... Does the so called "anti-racism" summit at Durban, S. Africa ring a bell? Amnesty Int'l kept its big mouth shut at the shocking display of Anti-Semitism that perverted the entire conference. Not a peep was heard from this self-described champion of human rights, even when a sign reading "Hitler should have finished the job" was displayed at the UN's Anti-Racism summit.

When a proposed resolution by Arab racists was drafted, urging the boycott and dismantling of the State of Israel, as well as branding Zionism as a racist movement, all that Amnesty's secretary general, Irene Khan could get her little self to utter was "There is language in the document that AI doesn't agree with." A silly little brush-off for an organization that considers itself an activist.

And when 80 NGOs joined in a statement condemning the Anti-Semitic actions of that conference, Amnesty refused to sign the joint statement. That in itself is a clear message about AI's hypocritical anti-Semitic stand.

But apart from the racist, anti-Semitic conference in Durban, historically so-called human-rights groups have always chosen the Arab side, even when hundreds of Israelis were massacred and thousands wounded by Arab and Islamic terrorists. Come to think of it, have you ever heard the term "terrorist" used to describe the Palestinian actions? "Armed groups," yes. "Terrorist?" No, not really. That terminology all of a sudden becomes murky when Jews are the ones being massacred.


It's the lack of foundation for saying that the whole of Europe were Nazis. No one's asking you to be grateful, but no one will accept you saying that we didn't lift a finger against the Nazis, or that we were responsible for them.

Maybe no one with the backbone or basic moral decency to admit the facts would agree with that.

But actually, many countries in Europe participated in the Nazi attrocities against Jews. Sure, many Europeans are tired of bearing the guilt for the actions of their fathers or grandfathers, but historically speaking, it was just 2 seconds ago that Europeans were happily forcing 6 million of their Jewish population into gas chambers and incinerators.

This is not to say that all Europeans are anti-Semites, nor does it bear on all current events. Still, when certain European countries arrogantly presume that they are in a position to judge Israel, or indeed, judge anyone for that matter, I strongly disagree. At the very least, the EU should quietly shy away from taking any actions whatsoever that may further harm its Jewish victims' ability to live with peace in dignity in the Jewish homeland of Israel.


And saying criticsm of Israel is anti-semitic is nothing short of a cop-out

In the vast majority of cases, those who oppose the right of the Jewish people to live in Israel independently and securely, are in fact Anti-Semitic. There is a very close tie between those two viewpoints. Saying its a "cop out" is in itself an attempt to divert attention from the underlying motivations of the vast majority of Israel's critics. Not all, but the vast majority.

[Batman]

To: cg.newyork@mfa.no
emb.wahington@mfa.no
terje.hauge@mfa.no
oyslebo@mfa.no
oyslebo@mfa.no
tora.thorsrud.faeste@mfa.no
monic-s.jakobsen@mfa.no
ole.orset@mfa.no

To Whom It May Concern:

It has come to my attention that it has become policy in Norway to place stickers on all products that are grown or made in Israel. Please explain, in detail, why you have instituted such a policy?

In addition, please explain why the following disturbing events have become pervasive in your country! (i.e. Norwegian stevedores have refused to unload Israeli farm products; Norwegian "labor youth group" campaigned to bar Israeli singers from the Eurovision Song Festival!)

In addition, why does the Progress Party want to ban circumcision? (for health purposes???).

I have heard nothing-nothing of your moral outrage at the hundreds of mainly Israeli CHILDREN and women mercilessly blown up while sitting down for a Passover meal or a piece of Pizza or an Ice Creme Cone. Is your country presently labeling all imported products made or grown in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip? If not, why not? Why the double standard?

Are you the same Norway that initiated the "Oslo Accords"-- that tried to find the path to a just and long lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians? What has happened to you?

May I suggest that instead of spending your time labeling Israeli imports--- you spend some time reflecting on your current attitudes and your historical prejudices and begin setting national standards that are applied EQUALLY!!!!

I will do everything I can to make the Travel Industry aware of Norway's blatant bigotry. I would think a country with a history of Nazi collaboration would be more careful with whom it associates!!!

M.M.
Sales and Marketing Director, Hospitality and Travel Industry

[Vic]

Originally posted by Batman
EU Releases Aid to Palestinians[...]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
At the very least, the EU should quietly shy away from taking any actions whatsoever that may further harm its Jewish victims' ability to live with peace in dignity in the Jewish homeland of Israel. FYI: Norway is not a member of the EU

[cerulean]

Are you the same Norway that initiated the "Oslo Accords"-- that tried to find the path to a just and long lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians? What has happened to you?


I hope not to sound like an apologist, but I wanted to try to balance the picture so you can get an idea of where Norway is and why it might have gotten so far off the track (although it's very reasonable to also point out that anti-Semitism has always been there, and just varies in amount).

My perception from personal contacts and friends and reading is that Norway sees itself as being the harbinger of progress in the entire world, making up for its small size by bringing goodness everywhere (pride is a big part of the issue). Norway is justifiably proud of its domestic achievements in respect to the status of women. Gro Harlem Bruntland, the Norwegian PM at the time of the Oslo agreements in the early 90s, has done a great deal of work in the UN in respect to the status of children and women.

The fact that Norway has so much oil wealth means that it is not facing the same painful decisions of other European countries in respect to budget cutbacks. Norway has a large foreign aid budget (one of the largest per capita in the world) and a strong tradition of sending aid workers to beleagured parts of the world (both secular and overtly Christian, but I think mostly secular now) and these workers have done a great deal of good providing medical, educational, agricultural, and economic services. The Norwegian Parliament (the Storting) is responsible for awarding the Nobel Peace Prize (another great source of pride).

So why the current situation with Israel?

First, there were the Oslo agreements. Norway saw the Oslo agreements as feathers in its cap, a sign of how enlightened and superior it was to bring peace between two intractable enemies.

But Oslo has failed! (At least I think it has, and I think most agree.) Norway is unwilling to accept an error on its part, so therefore the blame has to go somewhere else. It can't be with the beleagured Palestinians, who are suffering so badly, after all. So, falling back on historical precedents (perhaps unconsciously), that included forbidding Jews from Norway until the mid-1800s, Norway blames Israel.

My suggestion for neutralizing Norway (if not bringing it onside) is to appeal to this sense of pride (deserved or not). I can't say what will work or not, but pointing to Norway's record (apart from Israel) and then contrasting its record on Israel might be a good start.

(My incomplete, oversimplified opinion.)

[Mediocrates]

Or maybe it costs them little political or economic capital to be dramatic.

I for one refuse to buy any computers made in Syria. I call for an embargo on all Syrian computer electronics :p

[peacelover]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


But for you to pretend that those groups have been neutral in the past, or concerned with the human rights of Israelis is probably something you prefer to believe to help you sleep at night.

Hi newsguy. Well, I'm only 18 and don't know too much about what Amnesty, B'Tselem (are they anti-semitic?) and HRW etc have done through their history, but I find their coverage at the moment to be quite fair. For example, whenever there is a suicide bomb, there is an Amnesty condemnation of it, and there are many articles which criticise the PA's treatment of Palestinians, as well as the Israeli government's treatment of them.

PA Rough Justice (http://http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/pa1130.htm)

I quote now an extract of Amnesty's response to a suicide bombing, to show that they are utterly opposed to such violent acts. There are countless more condemnations like this one.

"These attacks are horrifying and tragic," Amnesty International said. "We call on armed groups to end immediately the direct targeting of civilians which contravenes the most fundamental principles of humanity."



Let's rewind just a bit... Does the so called "anti-racism" summit at Durban, S. Africa ring a bell? Amnesty Int'l kept its big mouth shut at the shocking display of Anti-Semitism that perverted the entire conference. Not a peep was heard from this self-described champion of human rights, even when a sign reading "Hitler should have finished the job" was displayed at the UN's Anti-Racism summit.

There was much condemnation in the Western world at the anti-semitism displayed at Durban, if Amnesty did not condemn it then they should have... however, I don't agree that their failure to do so negates their ability to report on the Middle East.

Amnesty is not a racial equality organisation, and its aim is not to counter racism, but human rights abuses. Its aims are " to free all prisoners of conscience; ensure fair and prompt trials for political prisoners; abolish the death penalty, torture and other cruel treatment of prisoners; end political killings and "disappearances"; and oppose human rights abuses by opposition groups."

Trying to lower racist feeling does not fall under those categories. Its not their main area. I would like for them to branch out into combatting racism as well, but as it is not their organisation's job to tackle racism, which is not a human rights abuse unless it is translated into action, I do not feel that Durban's events in any way suggest that Amnesty cannot be trusted with what it says about Israel and the territories.




And when 80 NGOs joined in a statement condemning the Anti-Semitic actions of that conference, Amnesty refused to sign the joint statement. That in itself is a clear message about AI's hypocritical anti-Semitic stand.

I don't know a lot about that petition, and could not find any information on it. They should have signed it, however, I don't agree that their failure to do so makes them intrinsically anti-semitic, especially given their objections to the rise of anti-semitism in places such as Tunisia, where a synagogue was recently burned down. However, I have emailed them to complain that they did not challenge this anti-semitism at Durban, as I feel this is disgusting.

In any case, defaming Amnesty isn't really much good to Israel's reputation, as there are so many other human rights groups that are also critical of Israeli policies. You can't seriously think they are all anti-semitic.


Come to think of it, have you ever heard the term "terrorist" used to describe the Palestinian actions? "Armed groups," yes. "Terrorist?" No, not really. That terminology all of a sudden becomes murky when Jews are the ones being massacred.

The human rights groups do not tend to call anybody 'terrorists'. I think this is a specific policy, as they believe that everyone has human rights, and to label people terrorists (even if they are) can make their mal-treatment in prisons etc seem acceptable.

The tend to speak about 'terrorist actions', and 'suspected terrorists' due to the common belief among society that terrorists do not have human rights, an opinion that HRW etc would disagree with.

I don't necessarily agree with not using the word 'terrorist' very often. But I think you are wrong to say they only leave it out when it is Jews who are dying.


In the vast majority of cases, those who oppose the right of the Jewish people to live in Israel independently and securely, are in fact Anti-Semitic. There is a very close tie between those two viewpoints. Saying its a "cop out" is in itself an attempt to divert attention from the underlying motivations of the vast majority of Israel's critics. Not all, but the vast majority.

There is a difference between opposing Israel's right to exist and criticising its treatment of Palestinians.

Those who oppose its right to exist may well be anti-semitic.
However, those who disagree that collective punishment as a response to terrorism is acceptable are not necessarily anti-semitic, and I don't think you have the evidence to say that anti-semitism is the 'underlying motivation' of the 'vast majority' of people who criticse Israeli policy.

[Mediocrates]

"We condemn suicide bombers"

"These attacks are horrifying and tragic," Amnesty International said. "We call on armed groups to end immediately the direct targeting of civilians which contravenes the most fundamental principles of humanity"

Which groups?, dare you name them?, where are they located and what acts do you refer to?, can you name the victims?, can you place the dates?

"Can we go get lunch now?"

"We condemn racist zionist IDF murderers"

"Let's protest, sanction, intimidate, threaten, march, deport.."

Amnesty is not a racial equality organisation, which in this context is dangerously close to saying there is no such thing as a hate crime. Are you SURE you want to say that?

are " to free all prisoners of conscience; ensure fair and prompt trials for political prisoners; abolish the death penalty, torture and other cruel treatment of prisoners; end political killings and "disappearances"; and oppose human rights abuses by opposition groups."

Please read that again slowly, perhaps out loud, for context. What does it say? It says AI's mission is directed against identifiable governments. Since we all 'agree' Palisitine is not a state AI has no mandate scrutinizing them. It's like any other social services apparatus - they can do what they do in light of their mission and how they view the world. AI does no see a world where terrorism is anything that they can or should look into, all their 'condemnations' aside.

However, those who disagree that collective punishment...

Be very very careful with your word choice. There are 3 phrases that are considered my most to be acceptable hate speech or politically correct hate speech. One is 'racist' - you can call someone a racist and it will take on a factual life of its own. Two is 'ethnic cleansing' - something that gets parroted around as if it meant what the words ethnic and cleansing mean. Really it's very lazy hate speech. And three is 'collective punishment' - which is, in the absence of actualy facts, or news or information a kind of opinion or world view that takes on the qualities of fact. At best a squishy phrase like "you're mean" which is really filler and doesn't add anything of substance.

That's what hot button propagandist words are - fire and smoke but there's nothing burning but some cheap fireworks. They are substitutes for fact for thought for reflectio.

[Batman]

thanks for the info about Norway not being part of the EU.

so, that would be the Other Nations.

[James]

And saying criticsm of Israel is anti-semitic is nothing short of a cop-out [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh now tell us how You really feel! You have alot of words but basically Israel is wrong and Islam is right?

[James]

http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0397.htm

On the heels of Mr. Roed-Larsen's now-infamous remark that Israel "ceded all moral ground" in Jenin, comes word from his home country of Norway that some supermarket chains have decided to place special identification stickers on products from Israel. Other Scandinavian countries may follow suit. The Norwegians say the stickers do not constitute a "boycott" of Israel; they just want their customers, who are overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian, to pay attention to where these products are produced.
Maybe the rest of us should run down to our local supermarkets with a pad of yellow "post-it" notes so that consumers of Norwegian salmon or Jarlsberg cheese can also pay attention to where those are produced. Stick them on the packages with a note: these products come from a place with a shameful past that continues to operate as a European free zone for Neo-Nazis and other right wing extremists.

Those asking the question of whether Europeans are anti-Israel because of Israel's actions in fighting terror, or because of their own latent anti-Semitism, should study the example of Norway.

Behind the current disclaimer of a boycott you will find that Norwegians are quite experienced at boycotting Israel. Norwegian labor unions have recently refused to off-load Israeli farm produce. Last year, a Norwegian "labor youth movement" organized a campaign to ban Israeli singers from the Eurovision song contest. Another Norwegian group has been boycotting Israeli oranges since the early 90s. This group, "Boikott Israel," rejuvenated by the latest "Intifada" to include a boycott of all Israeli commerce, denies on its website that it is anti-Semitic but states that its goal is the end Israel's "50 year occupation" of, and the return of all refugees to, a "free Palestine." Not anti-Semitic? In 1941, the graffiti on Jewish businesses in Oslo read: "Jews, go to Palestine." To campaign now in Norway to get the Jews out of "Palestine" seems anti-Semitic to me, if only by process of elimination.

Indeed, the roots of Norwegian boycotts of Israel run deep. Anti-Semitism has held a unique place in Norwegian politics since the 1930s when Vidkun Quisling, later the leader of a Nazi puppet government in Norway, formed the National Union Party. While many Norwegians fought with the Resistance, many became eager collaborators of the Nazis, including some 60,000 members of the National Union. Under its auspices, Norway formed its own branch of the SS and established academies sending hundreds of officers each year to the German military. One very active neo-Nazi group in Norway today is the Institutt for norsk okkupasjonshistorie (Institute for the History of Occupied Norway), composed of descendants of members of the Quisling party, the Waffen SS and others dedicated to cleansing their wartime reputation.

The aspect of the holocaust in Norway that was particularly Norwegian was the liquidation of Jewish property, much of which was divided up by Quisling and his followers. When the war ended, the Norwegian reparations commission shamelessly accepted doctored figures kept by the Quisling government in order to reject most Jewish claims and avoid paying others more than pennies on the dollar. Then in 1997 a new commission, appointed after a journalistic expose of the injustice of the first commission, issued a report, which actually recommended adherence to the earlier decision. However, a scandal erupted when it was discovered that an organization of former Nazis had provided a scholarship to a researcher on the new commission. The Norwegian prime minister ultimately intervened and compelled the government to accept a dissenting report.

Today, neo-Nazi propaganda, band concerts and other events are commonplace in Norway. Norway's ultra right-wing groups play host to gatherings of like-minded groups from Sweden and Denmark with little fear of official interference. More significantly, according to a report published by the Stephen Roth Institute of Tel Aviv University, the extreme right wing Progress Party is the second largest party in Norway with 25 out of 160 seats in the Parliament. Among other racist and anti-immigration views, this party advocates banning male circumcision. Schechita (kosher slaughter) is already forbidden by Norwegian law.

Given their past and present history, Norwegians are hardly qualified to accuse any other country of having ceded "moral ground." Their warning stickers on Israeli goods are the modern-day equivalent of painting "Joden" on the Jewish-owned businesses of Oslo and Trondheim in 1941. We needn't be reminded that after that, all of Norway's remaining Jews were deported to Auschwitz. Fewer than 30 survived the Holocaust.

I'm not the sort that usually pays attention to boycotts and counter-boycotts, because often you don't know who you are really hurting. But there is a good reason why I won't be buying Norwegian products any time soon, or cruising on the Norwegian Line. Their stickers have caught my attention.

Views expressed by the author do not necessarily reflect those of israelinsider. [/B][/QUOTE]

Israel produces "goods" accepted by countries willing to accept
quality produce and not afraid of what the Arab Nations think!

[peacelover]

Oh now tell us how You really feel! You have alot of words but basically Israel is wrong and Islam is right?

A slight over reaction James.

I am a white Christian, and have no loyalty to Islam whatsoever. Furthermore, I have consistently said I think there is dual responsibility for the conflict, with mistakes on both sides. To an absolute fanatic, that might constituye blaming everything on Israel. To reasonable, rational people, that does not equte to saying 'Israel is wrong and Islam is right'.

Calm down mate.

[minusthejihad]

But the interpretation I have from you is:

Reason and logic don't matter. Just the fact that 2 sides are fighting over whatever or who cares what, makes them both wrong. So you are also implying that defending yourself is just as "bad" as murdering someone out of blind haterd. Hmm, interesting. So now that we all know we are also "bad" for protecting ourselves or our families, I'll ask you, just as I asked StephenNichols (look below for answers), what the hell is your answer. Stop bitching and gets to creating a solution. All I hear from Peacelover is your hatred of Israel. Isn't peace about love and not hate, so why do you use such a hypocritical name? Thanks by the way for telling us your age. I remember what 18 was like myself nine years ago:

-Everyone should just get along, they just SHOULD because that's how the world should be. Oh forget about all your history and pain, rationality, or logic, just get along.

-I'm 18, I know everything. Older people aren't wiser, they're corrupted by narrowmindedness, us young people are the future, are the brilliant ones, all others are blind, biased, and ignorant. Sounds like China's Cultural Revolution. Hae you learned about that yet? Probably not, its usually taught after high-school. Well, it didn't work.

-Everyone in the world should be watched and taken care of, especially the ones who can't take care of themselves. Oh, the pain I felt for the downtrodden.

-I'm right, everyone else is wrong. Especially those evil corporations, and the Builderbergs, can't forget them, or the evil Zionists.

Face it, you're young, immature, you don't even have an extensive education. You've only learned 0.000087% of your own history, much less than that of the Jews and Arabs. You're parents probably take care of you and for that you accept their beliefs, lest of course any "right" or conservative beliefs, because MTV doesn't think that's cool. You are a young radical, and you love it because you think you are an Existentialist, a "free" thinker, not obscured by the "Man's" judgement or his money. You think what you say will irk the foundation, your non-conformist mantra will shake the white conservatives of their realms and pave the world for a colorful rainbow of love.

Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV. Then when you actually support yourself and understand the value of a dollar or even a Euro, you may start to understand what family is and where your loyalty lies. Then, PLEASE study history instead of consistently trying to rewrite it like your Maoist friends did, and themn, only then, can you get up and proclaim your anti-semetic views to a bunch of Jews on a forum, kid. Oh, yeah, one last thing, stop being so Jealous of Jews. Instead try to outsmart us by learning. Help your country create great things and build its own paradise in a desert surrounded by raving lunatics. Then you will lose your angry jealousy.

[peacelover]

Why do people have to keep getting personal on this board? Anyway...


So you are also implying that defending yourself is just as "bad" as murdering someone out of blind haterd. Hmm, interesting. So now that we all know we are also "bad" for protecting ourselves or our families, I'll ask you, just as I asked StephenNichols (look below for answers), what the hell is your answer.

I have indeed said that the fact that Israel does not specifically target Palestinians does not make the deaths any better - do you disagree? Be honest, if it was someone you loved who was killed by war planes, would the fact that the army didn't intentionally target your loved one make you feel any better?

If not, then you must see that in issues of death, it doesn't matter what the person's motivation is - you're just as dead when killed unintentionally by the IDF as you are if killed deliberately by a suicide bomber. Therefore, the tragedy is just as bad, and we need to stop this death on both sides . Your opinion seems to be that Israelis will be protected and who gives a damn if Palestinians have to die to make this happen? My issue is that Israel's 'self-defence':

a) implicates innocent civilians.
b) will not stop terror in the long-term.

I have made the distinction between deliberately killing people (ie terrorists), and civilians being implicated by military policies by Israelis - therefore, you have completely misquoted me. However, I have yet to see any evidence that the motivation of the killer makes the victim any less dead. Until you give me this evidence (which of course you cannot) then I will continue to maintain that unintentional Palestinian deaths by the IDF need to be avoided just as much as Israeli deaths by terrorists, because death is death. Once you're dead, it doesn't matter if someone meant to kill you or not.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer to you:

THERE ARE NO DEGREES OF DEATH

You ask what my answer to the conflict is - as I have said all along, it is negotiation. If you would like to know my views on what should happen at those negotiations, they are as follows:


complete cessation of all terrorist activity
creation of a Palestinian state, in territory equivalent in size to pre-67 borders (possibly involving land-swaps in order to give Israel secure borders)
no right of return
Palestinian state must have international supervision to ensure that it is not sponsoring terrorist activity against Israel, or teaching hatred and violence in schools/on TV
All Arab states must recognise Israel's right to exist in security
The Palestinian state must be demilitarised
Jerusalem an internationalised city
Settlements should be dismantled, as far as possible


You will probably disagree with a lot of that - but maybe you should speak to someone who genuinely does hate Israel to see that my views are actually pretty moderate.


All I hear from Peacelover is your hatred of Israel. Isn't peace about love and not hate, so why do you use such a hypocritical name?

Hatred of Israel? Or criticism of certain policies? There is a blatant difference. If you can find anywhere where I have said that Israel does not have the right to exist, or that Israeli people do not have the right to live in peace, then please show me, & I will retract those statements.

The fact I have criticised Israeli policies (As I have criticised Palestinian policies) does not mean I hate the country. Please appreciate the difference. You should speak to some people who really do hate Israel - their views are somewhat different to mine.


Everyone should just get along, they just SHOULD because that's how the world should be. Oh forget about all your history and pain, rationality, or logic, just get along.

Actually, yes. People are dying here - so is it wrong to want to resolve the conflict? Do you want to prolong it or something?

If not, and you do genuinely want peace, then there is no option but to get along. Currently, that isn't happening, and that's why we need reform and negotiation, because otherwise this horror will never stop. Incidentally, there is 'history and pain' on both sides.


-I'm 18, I know everything. Older people aren't wiser, they're corrupted by narrowmindedness, us young people are the future, are the brilliant ones, all others are blind, biased, and ignorant. Sounds like China's Cultural Revolution. Hae you learned about that yet? Probably not, its usually taught after high-school. Well, it didn't work.

This bit was quite funny - I don't recall ever saying anything like that! You have completely made that up. Can't you try to discuss the issues with me instead of resorting to pathetic cheap shots about my age?

BTW, would that be the Chinese cultural revolution from 1966-76, launched by Mao Zedong in order to renew the Chinese revolutionary spirit and prevent China developing along the same lines as the Soviet Union?

You seem to have a really bad stereotype of young people. We're not all like that - and some of us even know about the cultural revolution :D


You've only learned 0.000087% of your own history, much less than that of the Jews and Arabs. You're parents probably take care of you and for that you accept their beliefs, lest of course any "right" or conservative beliefs, because MTV doesn't think that's cool.

I have every right to be left-wing if I like - isn't that the point of a democracy? But as for my parents, my views on the Middle East are nothing like theirs. Look, I cannot be bothered to explain my family history to you, but I have broken away from their views quite a lot. You see, you might think I'm anti-Israel, but many Arabs think I'm pro-Israel. How someone else's views come across is all down to your own perpective. Once the sound of egypt forum is up and running again, you can go there to see how much I disagree with many Arab views on the Middle East.

BTW I don't acually watch MTV, but as far as I know they don't really say much about the Middle East.


You are a young radical, and you love it because you think you are an Existentialist, a "free" thinker, not obscured by the "Man's" judgement or his money. You think what you say will irk the foundation, your non-conformist mantra will shake the white conservatives of their realms and pave the world for a colorful rainbow of love.

You seem to have made quite an in depth psychological assessment of someone you've never even met. With respect, you know nothing about me, so quit the unfounded insults and character indictments. There is no way you can infer the asssessment you have made of my character from what you have seen of me on this board.


Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV.

OK, but you stop being patronising, and quite frankly, downright rude.


Then, PLEASE study history instead of consistently trying to rewrite it like your Maoist friends did, and themn, only then, can you get up and proclaim your anti-semetic views to a bunch of Jews on a forum, kid.

I like the use of the word kid!!! You have serious issues with young people don't you - why is that?

I have studied history to A-Level, and have never tried to rewrite it. If you know about history then you will know that historical 'fact' is very hard to come by - there is usually more than one version of history that can be inferred by looking at sources. If you can back up what you say with evidence, you have a valid interpretation. It would be a new historical perspective indeed if you are trying to say there can only ever be one version of history.

I'm not even sure which bits of history I'm supposed to have rewritten :confused:

The maybe you can show me where I've been anti-semitic. It's so easy to accuse people of that. I'm not anti-semitic, and find it quite amusing that not completely supporting everything Isrel does gets me labelled as such. I await the day when people can make a distinction between criticism of Israel (which in my case occurs alongside criticism of the Palestinians) and anti-semitism.

And as for the stuff about being jealous of Jews - completely unfounded inference on your part.

[peacelover]

I almost forgot:

In response to your prevalent comments about my supposed lack of education and low intellect, here are some credentials for you|

GCSEs

8 A*
3 A

A Levels

4 A (one of which is in history)

I am also a law student at Oxford University - therfore I am pursuing a higher education, as per your request.

I'm pretty happy with my education - it doesn't really get much more competitive than law at Oxford, and they certainly don't accept dumb people to study it there. So please stop treating me like I'm stupid, because I'm clearly not.

Listen bro, I haven't made any comments about your level of education and intelligence, all I ask is that you stop being insulting about my education, and show me my 'ignorance' by refuting my points, and not by getting bitchy about my age.

I think our discussion would be a lot more productive that way - there really is no need for you to be so nasty, and I'd like it if we could discuss the issues at hand together without getting personal?

What do you reckon?

[cerulean]

PeaceLover, I hope no one calls you stupid, because that would not be accurate. However, when considering the Middle East I think it's way more useful to focus on one's lack of knowledge (not a slight, but a reality given the nature of the region) than on one's marks in school.

[minusthejihad]

PEACELOVER,

I reckon:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You ask what my answer to the conflict is - as I have said all along, it is negotiation. If you would like to know my views on what should happen at those negotiations, they are as follows:


complete cessation of all terrorist activity

creation of a Palestinian state, in territory equivalent in size to pre-67 borders (possibly involving land-swaps in order to give Israel secure borders)

no right of return

Palestinian state must have international supervision to ensure that it is not sponsoring terrorist activity against Israel, or teaching hatred and violence in schools/on TV

All Arab states must recognise Israel's right to exist in security

The Palestinian state must be demilitarised

Jerusalem an internationalised city

Settlements should be dismantled, as far as possible
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the smartest thing I have ever read you post. Yet, your immaturity would allow you to believe that all these things are possible, when in fact they are not. The terms you state above ask more of the Arab World and the Palestinians than what was asked of them at Oslo, and Arafat got up and walked away, starting the second Intifada. What do you think the Hamas will do, stop calling for the destruction of Israel over the weekend and gpo out and start training for jobs in the casino industry?

All I was saying about your previous posts, without getting personnal like you may have inferred, is that you are too immature, not unintelligent, to know that what you think should so easily be accepted by people around the world, will not be accepted because it is the "right" way. Especially in the Arab World, where their own study showed that most of the Arab World is stuck in a murderous vacuum.

I am very proud of you that you are in Oxford (oh, and it does get more competitive). However, I could have predicted that you would be a lawyer with all the double-speak I have read from you. Your points shifted greatly from your previous posts, and your reply to me sounded as if it were all in defence of yourself, not the issues.

It just makes me laugh when I hear someone from England, "Land of the High Morality" or "The Unbiased Ones", tell the 2 groups of people that the English and French pretty much influenced and lead into this mess to "get along", after pulling out of the Middle East to protect their own ass, while messily drawing up boundaries and territories. Glad to see you take the objective moral high ground like your leaders. Is this an English thing? After all, your peple did create the best forms of torture.

[Mediocrates]

PL:

What kind of law do you think you'll pursue or are you going into politics?

[peacelover]

PeaceLover, I hope no one calls you stupid, because that would not be accurate. However, when considering the Middle East I think it's way more useful to focus on one's lack of knowledge (not a slight, but a reality given the nature of the region) than on one's marks in school.

I agree cerulean, but minusthejihad's post made several patronising references to my education, saying I need to stop watching MTV and get educated.
I was responding to those points.

Either way, I do not think the fact I am young means I am not knowledgable about the Middle East. Nor does the fact I do not agree with people on this board mean I am not knowledgable. I have always tried to respond to people's points on the basis of what they say without calling them ignorant. Like I say - if I am factually wrong, I am happy to be corrected, if not, will people please quit calling me ignorant - it is so patronising, and so far it is an accusation that has not been backed up by any evidence.

I like the way that you don't object to minus the jihad's completely unnecessary and sarcastic post towards my immature personality, which was quite unkind in places ("Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV. Then when you actually support yourself and understand the value of a dollar or even a Euro) but you do seem to object to me defending myself against this. Why should I have to justfy my presence here, just because I don't tow the Israeli line?


I am very proud of you that you are in Oxford (oh, and it does get more competitive). However, I could have predicted that you would be a lawyer with all the double-speak I have read from you. Your points shifted greatly from your previous posts, and your reply to me sounded as if it were all in defence of yourself, not the issues.

minus: Actually, in terms of British university education, it deosn't get much more competitive. I was referring to this and not to life post-uni.

Stop inferring that I change my opinion and show me where I have - maybe I can clarify my points. And if my response was in defence of myself - that's because your post was in attack of me and not the issues.



It just makes me laugh when I hear someone from England, "Land of the High Morality" or "The Unbiased Ones", tell the 2 groups of people that the English and French pretty much influenced and lead into this mess to "get along", after pulling out of the Middle East to protect their own ass, while messily drawing up boundaries and territories. Glad to see you take the objective moral high ground like your leaders. Is this an English thing? After all, your peple did create the best forms of torture.

England did indeed screw up very badly in its dealings with the ME. I'm perfectly prepared to criticise my country, a skill which all you mature people here seem to lack.

Once again though, you cannot resist taking a swipe. Dig up all the dirt you like on England - I'll probably agree with a lot of it. I ask you again - do you not think the two should get along? If not, what is your approach going to be?


Yet, your immaturity would allow you to believe that all these things are possible, when in fact they are not.

Well, I don't se your way (ie military responses) providing a secure and lasting peace for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. I think you're pretty naive if you think the Palestinians will ever let peace-terms be forced upon them. They will not.

Mediocrates: in case that was a genuine question, I want to go into human rights law

[Mediocrates]

thank you

[James]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peacelover
[B]

A slight over reaction James.

I am a white Christian, and have no loyalty to Islam whatsoever.


Since you are a Christian, there is a site for you to visit: The Voice
of the Martyrs. Web site:thevoice@vom-usa.org
I think you will find it informative about Islam and it's, band of merry men.

[peacelover]

HI James

Couldn't get the link to work - did you type it in right?

[James]

Originally posted by peacelover
HI James

Couldn't get the link to work - did you type it in right?

My mistake! I gave you their e-mail. Web site:www.persecution.
com

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by James


My mistake! I gave you their e-mail. Web site:www.persecution.com

[minusthejihad]

PL,

Actually, Israel's new military presence is lessening the amount of attacks. It may be temporary, but as long as my family can go another day, feeling a little safer about stepping out of the house, I'm all for it. And this is exactly what I tell my Palestinians friends in the US. Non of which feel that terrorism will save their families.

And, my "attack" on you wasn't personal, it had everything to do with the issues. All we do here is debate on the issues, in this instance they are issues which you brought up including your opinion. I told you that your opinion on the issues was immature. I stand by that point. And I think it very much matters if you understand the value of a dollar or Euro. Just wondering, do you support yourself? Cause it very much has to do with your opinions on the world. When I was in my collegiate bubble, I though everything had an answer and I thought I looked at everything with an objective point of view. I though humans were genuinely good from the start, that humanity was good, that life isn't just about survival. I found this not the case when I began to support myself and realized that my liberal beliefs truly came and went with age.

And if say, you had studied the history and facts for (benefit of the doubt) the last 10 years of your life, there are people in this forum who have studied them for over 40 years. (Me, the last 10 as well). The fact that you can come in here and tell these people who are older (maybe smarter), but definately wiser than you that they are closeminded and don't understand the situation is a very arrogant and brazen stance you take. But then again, you are in law school, that's a very good trait to develop in your field.

I love growing up, your age (give or take 4 years in either direction) is the one segment of life where you can be so passionately WRONG about something, blinded by your admirable search for truth and justice that you will focus on someone's suffering rather than how they caused it. Well, living in the Real World, where I have to support myself, where I suffer everyday, I find it hard to worry about the plight of a bunch of brainwashed people who are taught from the day they are born to hate Jews. I pity them, but I don't find any compassion like you do. To me, they are the enemy, and if the civilized world has to control their every actions and "take care" of them to keep the rest of the civilized world safe, than so be it.

I think with what you want to do in life, you know, right the wrongs, you should focus on having organizations like Amnesty International go after the true cause of all this grief: the parents and leaders who commit child abuse; instilling hatred in babies. Teaching them to hate Jews before they even have a chance to speak or read and find out for themselves. How can you target Israel and not target those terrible people?

And as far as criticising our governments. I do it all the time, and I've heard many pro-Israel forum members do the same. I don't like Bush or Sharon and I don't always agree with their tactics. For Instance: If you're going to attack Iraq, do it already, don't tell them when and how. That's just stupid. Don't give them time to make more WOMD. And for Israel, I agree with the points you made above, and I think over 2/3s of Israelis agree with your conditions for peace, the problem is:

The Arab Fundamentalists don't and they never will. So they need to be executed to pave the way for not just a free world, but a free galaxy where we can all live in Peace 200 hundred years from now.

There will always be War and Peace, Good and Evil, Day and Night, Wrong and RIght. There's nothing you can do about it, but take the right side. This is the balance of the universe, Universal Law, sorry, but people have fought it forever, us humans aren't there yet to change that. When Aliens attack us, maybe we'll all get together, before then, I wouldn't hold your breath, to do otherwise would be immature. Good luck.

[peacelover]

Hi minus


Actually, Israel's new military presence is lessening the amount of attacks. It may be temporary, but as long as my family can go another day, feeling a little safer about stepping out of the house, I'm all for it

I genuinely am glad that your family feels safer - but the Israelis are not the only people to consider here. How many Palestinians (who are nothing to do with terror) are having to suffer for it? Do you think they feel safe? My issue with the current situation is that it sacrifices Palestinians for the sake of Israelis.


And, my "attack" on you wasn't personal, it had everything to do with the issues.

Re-read it.

"Well, please wake up, pursue higher education and stop watching MTV",
"I remember what 18 was like myself nine years ago"
"Sounds like China's Cultural Revolution. Hae you learned about that yet? Probably not, its usually taught after high-school."
"I'm 18, I know everything. Older people aren't wiser, they're corrupted by narrowmindedness, us young people are the future, are the brilliant ones, all others are blind, biased, and ignorant."
"Lest of course any "right" or conservative beliefs, because MTV doesn't think that's cool."
"PLEASE study history instead of consistently trying to rewrite it like your Maoist friends did, and themn, only then, can you get up and proclaim your anti-semetic views to a bunch of Jews on a forum, kid."


I'm going to stop now, cos I could actually post the whole thing. Can you not appreciate that this comes across as a little condescending?

And this was just downright unnecessary:


Oh, yeah, one last thing, stop being so Jealous of Jews.

What exactly were you trying to achieve by that comment?

Listen if you can honestly re-read that post and say it was not at all patronising or sarcastic then fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree. This is a silly thing to be discussing really - I even think that and I'm only an immature kid!! :p

Incidentally though, which post of mine did you object to so strongly?


And I think it very much matters if you understand the value of a dollar or Euro. Just wondering, do you support yourself?

Yes and no. I do live at home with my parents during holidays, but as a student, I have had to scrimp and save. For the past 2 years, I have not had a day off during a typical week - I'd leave the house at 7:30 for college, and several days a week go straight to work from 5-8 in a busy shop (where I've been all day today!). I work every Saturday and Sunday. Then of course as you can imagine I have heaps of work to do once I get back.

The reason I do this is so I can support myself through uni - it is so expensive. My parents can afford to pay my fees, but not for the rest of it.

So I don't support myself in the way I assume you mean, but I do work very hard to put myself through uni, and my father was unemployed for much of my younger life, which to my ultra-immature mind convinced me I was headed for the streets. Never have I forgotten how my young mind was too afraid to turn on the
light or watch TV because I thought if we got a big electricity bill, we couldn't afford it, and would have to give up our home. It is so wierd how little memories like that can stay with you - but since I was young I have always been very conscious of money. I take your point about how different it is with your own house and family though.

My main issue I have with your point about my age is that I am not necessarily like you. You may well have thought you could change the world when you were 18 - I don't. Your description if yourself at 18 is nothing like how I am, yet you have assumed that my views will develop like yours. I would call that "arrogant and brazen" (to use your words).


The fact that you can come in here and tell these people who are older (maybe smarter), but definately wiser than you that they are closeminded and don't understand the situation is a very arrogant and brazen stance you take.

Yes, there are many people older than me on this board (although I have no idea how old anyone is except you and I!). But if you look at the world, there are plenty of people older than both of us who do share my views on the situation. That's why I don't accept your criticism of me on the grounds of my age - because so many people who are a lot older would agree with me (and many, no doubt, with you)

Also, the whole point of history is that you do not have to have lived through it to have studied it. I know more about history from before I was born than since. The fact people are older than me does not mean they are not closeminded, and the fact I am younger than them does not mean I am less entitled to point it out if I want to - but where did I say it?


How can you target Israel and not target those terrible people?

I do target them. Like I say, I think instilling the desire for peace into the Palestinians is fundamental to peace, and I have said so. People on here have tended to box me - I don't agree with everything Israel does, therefore I must think they are the only ones to blame for the situation. This simply is not true. I believe the current situation has been arrived at by mistakes by both sides.

If you think only the Pals are to blame, then I am afraid I feel it is you who is naive.


I pity them, but I don't find any compassion like you do. To me, they are the enemy, and if the civilized world has to control their every actions and "take care" of them to keep the rest of the civilized world safe, than so be it.

There seems to be a mentality that Palestinian = Muslim fanatic who wants to wipe all Jews from the face of the planet. This view is... well... racist. Not all Palestinians are like that, and I vehemently object to the notion that they are. And if you accept that there are many decent Palestinians who want peace, then how can you not feel compassion?

But it doesn't surpirse me to hear you feel no compassion for them. I think that is the crux of the difference in our opinion - but if having compassion for palestinians AS WELL AS Israelis makes me naive and immature, it's a criticism I'll happily take, and I'd encourage more of the world to become less mature.


When Aliens attack us, maybe we'll all get together, before then, I wouldn't hold your breath, to do otherwise would be immature. Good luck.

I'm not holding my breath, I've always been well aware that I cannot change the world. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give up trying.
I just want to use my life to do what good I can, and what I get done will probably be negligible, but at least I'll have tried, and if I have made a difference - even to one person, then it will have been worthwhile. So while we cannot do much, we should still do what we can instead of giving up.

OK, so I'm naive, but naivety can be a good thing!


I love growing up, your age (give or take 4 years in either direction) is the one segment of life where you can be so passionately WRONG about something, blinded by your admirable search for truth and justice that you will focus on someone's suffering rather than how they caused it

You can call me passionately wrong if you like (the feeling's mutual :D )

But I am not blind. It's about 1 year since I started to go on forums to discuss the ME, and when I started, my views were so different to how they are now. Why? because I listened to people, and as I listened, I was prepared to be wrong. That is fundamental to being impartial - that you discuss not to convert others to your own point of view, but to listen and be prepared to accept that you may be wrong.

Well, I went on totallyjewish.com, and after discussion with some lovely jewish people on there, I realised I was wrong about a lot of things, notably right of return etc. I won't go into detail, but take my word that many of my views have changed as a result of how I discussed with these people. I wasn't indignant, I was prepared to listen, and I learned. NOw I can honestly say that in my heart of hearts, I believe what I believe because I genuinely believe it to be right. Of course, I could be wrong, but it will be a mistake borne out of genuine misunderstanding, and not because I have already decided what I want to believe. I come onto these forums because I want to learn, and I want to be corrected if I am shown to be wrong.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by peacelover




I genuinely am glad that your family feels safer - but the Israelis are not the only people to consider here. How many Palestinians (who are nothing to do with terror) are having to suffer for it? Do you think they feel safe? My issue with the current situation is that it sacrifices Palestinians for the sake of Israelis.



.


As far as I'm concerned the Palestinians elected Mr. Arafat.

The majority of the Arab world defends/defended Arafat and his policies, including the Palestinians. As far as I'm concerned if there's any suffering I have only one thing to say to the Palestinians and that is "LIVE WITH IT !"

[Batman]

Apparantly, he is the one behind the well organized UK website called:http://www.boycottisrael.co.uk [/URL]

Of course he is also a green party member and has a web site for that:[/url]---'Naturally' this excuses his anti semitic drive and he has a link to boycott Israel. Do you really have to be an environmentalist these days to also gang up on little green Israel- who made trees bloom out of the desert?

http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/oxfordshire/news/elections-henley.html#green (http://www.mylinkspage.com/wildfile.html)

Oliver Tickell (Green)
Oliver Tickell, 42, is married and lives south of Oxford. He is an Oxford University graduate in Physics. He is an Internet campaigner and entrepreneur whose websites include wildfile.co.uk, a directory of wildlife websites.

He formerly worked as an environment journalist, including a spell as environment correspondent at The Independent. He has campaigned for the Green Party in city and council elections. Mr Tickell has written about several environmental campaigns and demonstrated against road building at Twyford Down, near Winchester.


ELECTION (MAY 2002)RESULTS:[URL]http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/oxfordshire/news/oxfordresults.html
ROSE HILL AND IFFLEY (two seats)
*Bill Buckingham (Lab) 953
Edward Turner (Lab) 791
*David Penwarden (Lib Dem) 534
Pamela Bones (Lib Dem) 424
Gwendoline Fancutt (Con) 149
Julian Hicks (Con) 142
Oliver Tickell (Green) 120
Simon Brook (Green) 107
Ben Kenward (Socialist Alliance) 60

This guy apparantly has his hands in business too, he apparantly puts his internet skills to no good:
http://www.capeclear.com/news/press_releases/reports/print/quintessence_print.htm

[Batman]

Fury as academics are sacked for being Israeli
By Charlotte Edwardes
(Filed: 07/07/2002)


A British academic has sparked worldwide protests after sacking two scholars from her highly respected international journals because they are Israeli.

© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2002. Terms & Conditions of reading.
Commercial information. Privacy Policy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F07%2F07%2Fnisr07.x ml

Previous article on same link above on bottom of page:
Academia split over boycott of Israel
(Filed: 16/05/2002)


A growing number of research bodies are calling for a boycott of links with Israel because of the Middle East conflict. Peter Foster reports



© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2002. Terms & Conditions of reading.
Commercial information. Privacy Policy.

[Batman]

Friday, 5 July, 2002, 22:26 GMT 23:26 UK
Palestine destination angers Jewish passengers

Arguments broke out between passengers and crew on an Air France flight from Paris to Tel Aviv after a pilot described the final destination as Israel-Palestine.

Israeli army radio said Jewish and Israeli passengers on the flight were angered by the announcement over the plane's loud-speaker system on the way to Israel's Ben Gurion airport.

Some of the passengers complained to the airport authorities and the Israeli Border Police after landing.

Israeli police said that the pilot did not get off the plane and the matter had been referred to the Foreign Office.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_2102000/2102030.stm

FROM AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WROTE ABOUT IT:
An hour before landing in tel aviv, an air france pilot announced last friday in flight number 1192, that the final destination is "Israel - Palestine"
After much complaining within the plane and afterwards, Air France apologized, yet many frequent flyers are now considering boycott. I'd rather fly Egyptian Airlines than Air France.
e.

[minusthejihad]

PeaceLover,

Well said. I agree to disagree. Good luck in school and supporting yourself. I don't know exactly which of you posts irritated me, but it is the continuing debate that continues to position Israel as the "Oppresor" and the Palestinians as "Victims", now that pisses me off.

Of course, Israel and America, and even England has done "bad" things. But do not think for a minute that at least these "free" countries hasn't done these things for YOUR benefit. I just find it hypocritical that anyone in the free world that drives a car (which exploits the Arab peoples for their gas), wears name-brand clothes (which exploits all types of people around the world), and uses technology (which exploits the Earth) can be so ungrateful and feel such guilt for what their anscestors created. I know that every dollar I make is one less dollar for the rest of the world's starving people. But I am happy to be making that dollar and I am grateful for living in the world that is the lesser of the evils.

The main point I will try to make is that I do not think it is fair to even try to hold the 2 sides to the same standards or judgment scales. The Jewsih people have, throughout all of time, strived to be fair, honest, and extended their hand to Peace, while the Arab world, well, obviously, does not even incorporate those into their vocabulary. So I think it's totally biased to try to look at the Arab/Israeli Conflict objectively, when objectivity does not exist in Most of the Arab World.

[peacelover]

All I want to say is that I have never denied that I am lucky to be in this part of the world, and I have never said this country isn't good to me. I have also stated many times that the Arab states are appalling, however, you shouldn't punish civilins for their government. If I see wrong with the Arab states, I say so. If I see wrong with Israel, I say so. I don't think I am obliged to defend Israel where I see her to be wrong just because she is a democracy - it doesn't make her above criticism. And if you accept this, then why am I a hypocrite for saying so? I also praise my country - and Israel - when they are right.

You are right about the developing world - I give monthy direct debit donations to Oxfam, where I have worked voluntarily in their shops, and I have been part of the Jubillee 2000 which aimed to cancel 3rd world debt. I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I don't think it's fair for you to say that I don't give a damn, and that I'm a hypocrite.



it is the continuing debate that continues to position Israel as the "Oppresor" and the Palestinians as "Victims", now that pisses me off.

That is not my position, you have just assumed that it is because I do not tow the Israeli line. I have said that Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians are both victims, and that Palestinians are oppressed not only by Israel, but by their own leaders.

[Mediocrates]

Fair enough but where does that lead? We can't all wait for manna from heaven. We can't all say everyone is a victim. Even if it's true. To paraphrase Lyndon Johnson "Therefore gentlemen, what?".

If people want to conclusively settle the "who gets blamed for this mess" first before doing anything then nothing will ever progress. Even my 10 year old knows this and he's a 'last word' freak.

[James]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Batman
[B]"Variety Magazine" yesterday May 29:

"Local presenters in Sweden and Belgium urged viewers not to cast votes for the Israeli entry, Sarit Haddad, in the Eurovision Song Contest.
Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, is incensed at their actions.



How many Nations do You suppose support Israel? I guess, the count would be on one hand. I am proud of America and it's (One)
sided friendship of Israel!

[Batman]

I am proud of The US too. It really is amazing to see that the taste of freedom in the US has such deep roots. It was our first president, Pres. George Washington who refused to become a monarch and in doing so cemented the notion of freedom and of truth and justice for all, as well as being a role model for self sacrifice for truth and justice and liberty, and that one must back up one's beliefs with appropriate actions.

Europe on the other hand, has a history of centuries of monarchies and dictatorships, as well as the continuous and often accepted/encouraged persecution and bloodshed of the Jewish people.

Israel is the only democratic freedom loving and practicing country in the middle of dictatorships of the mid east.

The people of the US understand the difference, and have the courage and insight to oppose the prejudices that blind the European countries.

[James]

You are correct! Many countries want Israel destroyed and contribute to this effort. Israel is definately operating against a
"stacked deck." I would be surprised if the U.N. condemns any nation sponsoring terrorist attacks upon Jews in Israel!

The world is in great turmoil and nations are setting up confederacies. The alignment seems to be against America &
Israel. It seems politically correct to always side with Islam.

[Northlander]

Its not surprising to see how furiously some of you personally attack peacelover. Seems to be the general strategy when someone tries to have a more neutral point of view.
A basically agree to everything peacelover has wrote and I dont think his age should be an issue. Nor should your common arguement that one should not have an opinion if one is not living in the area. Then you americans and israelis should be very quiet about norway. The difference between you and peacelover is that he has knowledge about the ME conflict and you have none whatsoever about Norwegian society. I think we can all agree on the fact that its ok to have an opinion no matter where you live or what your grandparents did.

England did indeed screw up very badly in its dealings with the ME. I'm perfectly prepared to criticise my country, a skill which all you mature people here seem to lack.
Thank you, that is exactly what other of us have tried to explain here earlier.

I would think a country with a history of Nazi collaboration would be more careful with whom it associates!!!
Associates with whom? Does the government in Norway work together with militant islamists? With neo-nazis?
Or is the fact that it, as many other countries, is supportive of a palestinian state enough?
Your historical description of norwegians during WWII is not entirely true. Most norwegians worked one way or the other against the nazi occupation.
As for the rest of the critisism you have a tendency to overreact.
Norwegians that are critisising Israel just as other europeans are critisising ISRAEL not jews. Wrong, they are critising israels politics, I take back. Apart from a FEW fundamental islamists living in norway and a few neo-nazis there is no hate of jews. When will you all realize that? That they want to mark Israeli goods is nothing outrageous in my opinion. People are entiteled to choose for themselves what they want to boycott. It would be a good idea to mark more goods. Chinese, pakistani, turkish, syrian what have you. Norway is no enemy of neither USA nor Israel and it has done nothing agianst international laws etc so I dont see why you should want to boycott them.
Since some of you seem to lack basic knowledge of europe its probably best to point out that Norway is not a member of EU but it is a member of NATO. Its an important ally to USA because of its very strategic position and its oilresources. It has nothing to do with militant islam and nothing with anti-semitism.

I am proud of The US too. It really is amazing to see that the taste of freedom in the US has such deep roots. It was our first president, Pres. George Washington who refused to become a monarch and in doing so cemented the notion of freedom and of truth and justice for all, as well as being a role model for self sacrifice for truth and justice and liberty, and that one must back up one's beliefs with appropriate actions.
You should have been casted for "independence day". :)
I feel an urge to remind you of reality but somehow I dont belive it will make any difference so I will try not to. Lets just say your country is not so honorable.

Europe on the other hand, has a history of centuries of monarchies and dictatorships, as well as the continuous and often accepted/encouraged persecution and bloodshed of the Jewish people.
I agree. Do you want me to say Im sorry for what the granparents of a person in a totally different country on the same continent did 60 years ago to your grandparents?
Or what happened during the inquisition. Maybe the incas in peru should hear how sorry I or any other european are for what happened there in the 16th century.
Anti-semitism or other rasism for that matter, has NOTHING to do with europes position against Sharon or the israeli government.

And please, when will you ever listen to us europeans when we all, one after the other, are telling you that every single attack on israel is reported here? Our news are full of stories of israeli familes that are suffering from the terrorattacks. Over and over again. The time the palestinians get in media is not more than the israelis.
The international organisations we put more trust in than the two sides in the conflict are reporting about palestinian crimes too.
There are no arab propaganda in the newsreports in northern europe. I cant imagine there are any in the southern parts either.
There is no great conspiracy against Israel in europe. When, if ever, Israel changes its position somewhat, relations will become just fine.

Some things I dont agree to in the list from peacelover is
"All Arab states must recognise Israel's right to exist in security"
I hope all states does but I cant see how the palestinians could be responsible to what other arabstates do.
"no right of return" is also difficult. Seen from a moral point of view its debatable. I dont think any european or american could ever accept to leave their properties permanently. Not without a total compensation. It would be against everything we belived in.
"Palestinian state must have international supervision to ensure that it is not sponsoring terrorist activity against Israel, or teaching hatred and violence in schools/on TV "
I agree, but it must be international supervision not israeli.

[cerulean]

There is no great conspiracy against Israel in europe. When, if ever, Israel changes its position somewhat, relations will become just fine.

The problem is that Israel is in the midst of a continuing battle against terrorism. Although thankfully suicide attacks have abated, would-be bombers are still caught almost every day and turned back. The current decline in terrorism is due in large part to Israeli military action against the terrorist infrastructure.

The perception that many have of European opinion is that Europe wants Israel to essentially adopt a pacifist stance. Any military action is criticized. Although the military operation has saved uncounted lives, Europe still criticizes it. (I don't like speaking of "Europe" as a collective when it is so diverse, but I more or less mean mainstream EU-speak.)

You say above that Israel only need change its position somewhat and relations will be fine. What changes can Israel make and still keep its citizens safe? Why should Israel sacrifice citizens' lives for Europe's approval?

[elke]

No, people can't forever atone for something their ancestors have done. Building a society based on guilt is not productive. It is necessary, however, to examine what is really going on; and discounting antisemitism, as well as other forms of racism, as some of the driving forces behind certain actions (or inactions, as the case may be) is a mistake.

I agree with you, Northlander, that PeaceLover is a very fine young lady, who has moral clarity as well as high intelligence. I do think that age is an issue though, simply because a very young person has had less time to learn adequate amount of information and draw conclusions based on that knowledge. While it is a mistake to discount and deride a person's views based on his/her age (not that it's a good idea to deride anyone's views as views anyway), this is something that sometimes happens in the heat of "battle of wits".

[Northlander]

I will try to answer the basic question here:

"Where is the Noble Side of Norway and Other Nations?"

If a countrys politics can be called noble, which I dont belive is true for any nation, Norway is at least among the most noble in my opinion. It takes its responsibilities as a very rich country, towards the third world. It has tried to come up with constructive sollutions in conflicts over the world more than once. It often plays a role in hotspots as a neutral place for negociations etc.
The fact that you israelis are also critisised is more a sign of health in norwegian politics IMHO. It is as I said a strong ally to USA. Member of NATO etc. Still its tight bonds to USA do not prevent it from speaking out against US or USAs allies interests when it sees fit.

Noble or moral is the wrong word as I said and to call Norways politics "unnoble" or "unmoral" is not fair either, not even from a US/Israeli POV.
They take their responsibilities in the fight against international terrorism just as any other NATO country. So does other western countries too for that matter. Their support for PA is more a result of israeli actions than a real moral support for PA. They as well as other european countries do not support ALL palestinian activities as terrorism or corruption for example. On the contrary to what you belive we hear of that here too all the time. But their critisism of the palestinians sort of drown in their critisism of israel at least from your point of view I would guess.
I get a feeling its almost like you hear what you want to hear or expect to hear.

Try not to see Norways position as pro-arab or anti-semitic but rather US-ally, NATO member, politically independent something and things will not look so dark from your side. How do you think the Iraqi leaders look upon norway? As allies in the struggle against US/Israel? As fellow anti-semitics?
Things are not so black and white in reality as you can sometimes hear on this forum. "my enemies enemy are my friend" and "my enemies friends are my enemies" arent always true.
It should be possible to support a palestinian state and still support the safety of israel. Its hard because both sides look upon you as an enemy and neither side as a friend, but its still possible. Its basically your choice how to see Norway and norwegians. In my opinion they have never worked against Israels right to exist or right to defend.

[Mediocrates]

Certainly that is somewhat the Realpolitik view of the world. But it is simply coy hypocricy to say you are independent yet we are ruthlessly unilateral. Some of our interests are shared and when Noway shared a border with our heretofore 3CP enemies that was more true than it is today. Our shared interests are blurry today and it's not at all clear how countries like Norway and the US can cooperate on the political stage. That's not to say we can't still be collateral partners in economic and less volatile world issues like fishing and whaling rights, environmental regulations, energy, technology transfer and so on but on many other issues this is simply not the case. Whether it's because of a jumble of conflicting European agendas and statutes like the idiocy that couldn't keep Pinochet held let alone indicted or the fact that Milosevic who is defending himself and is an untrained Pro Se and is holding his own against all the powdered wigs of the Hague, or, it's for other reasons altogether, it's equally clear that the air is just as yellow and fetid from the top your Legal Mt. Olympus as it is on dry dusty Green Line.

Amoral perhaps. Which is not always a bad thing. But again, don't henpeck the Israelis for embracing the exactly the same kind of rational Realpolitik self interest, however that is defined.

It's really like a carny game in some ways or a game show. Everyone wants to browbeat the ugly ogre America because it's cost free. Similarly everyone wants to excoriate the ugly tiny ogre Israel because frankly it costs you zero political capital to do so. In that sense there is little difference between the mythic arab street and the mythic european street. And a country with 4.5 million people can be on the world stage, it's power and stature amplified beyond that of mere population. (If I were cynical I would say that) there is some amount of one guy darting out from the middle of a mob to toss a brick at the cops and then darting back in.

[Northlander]

Everyone wants to browbeat the ugly ogre Islam because it's cost free. It all depends on from where you are looking. the mythic american streets doesnt differ alot from the mythic european apart from the view of israel. As I stated before alot of arabs feel the anti-muslim trend in europe and most europeans have a similar view on that as americans.
I cant see why anyone would like to critisise israel just because its fun and simple. How hard would it be critisising Iceland or mongolia? You are ignorant to the fact that people choose israel together with others because there are things to critisise. No other reason. Not hatred of jews and not hatred of americans.

Im sure a whole generation here are positive to jews more than other groups in general just because of a simple thing as Jerry Seinfeld. Im not exaggerating.
I would say that Israel gets critisism DESPITE the fact that there are jews there and their opposition happens to be muslims.
Not the way around.
The average european doesnt have a negative picture of americans or jews, on the contrary. The only spot on the clean jewish reputation is Israels ME politics and I dont belive anyone is judging the jewish people for that as a group. USA has some others and the same goes for them. It has nothing to do with hatred or fear. If norway happen to disagree with actions taken by the Israeli government, why should they sit quiet when they already have taken actions against arab countries or african countries or european countries? I dont really understand what you expected? It would surely have been hypocrisy not to protest in one way or the other since Norway had sanctions against the serbs and their military operations against their terrorists. The similarities are stunning but the result is in favour for israel so I think you shouldnt read to much into it. Are norwegians anti-slavic too? Is it your only explanaition for all critisism? Rasism, envy, hatred, fear, moral superiority?

[Mediocrates]

First Off:
I cant see why anyone would like to critisise israel just because its fun and simple. How hard would it be critisising Iceland or mongolia? You are ignorant to the fact that people choose israel together with others because there are things to critisise. No other reason. Not hatred of jews and not hatred of americans.

Can you decode this, I can't. I just happened to be looking for some information on Abba Eban and ran into an american website that went on for several hundred pages of writings and message board postings and letters carrying on with the worst kind of antisemitic ravings I have ever heard. And there are hundreds of other websites like it. Other than that I don't understand your last 3 sentences here.

Second:

The average european doesnt have a negative picture of americans or jews

I'll withhold judgment on that but at any rate that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not convinced by your words that 1100 Jews in Norway and however many supporters they have can negatively affect the lives and livelyhoods of 50,000 muslims.

If norway happen to disagree with actions taken by the Israeli government, why should they sit quiet when they already have taken actions against arab countries or african countries or european countries? I dont really understand what you expected?

I told you. I don't really care what the official or unofficial reaction of Norway is. What I object to is the criticism you heap on others for exactly the same national self interest.

You are independent yet we are indifferent. Your Reason is our Treason. I don't buy it the semantic difference.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Northlander
I cant see why anyone would like to critisise israel just because its fun and simple. How hard would it be critisising Iceland or mongolia? You are ignorant to the fact that people choose israel together with others because there are things to critisise. No other reason. Not hatred of jews and not hatred of americans.

Im sure a whole generation here are positive to jews more than other groups in general just because of a simple thing as Jerry Seinfeld. Im not exaggerating.
I would say that Israel gets critisism DESPITE the fact that there are jews there and their opposition happens to be muslims.
Not the way around.
The average european doesnt have a negative picture of americans or jews, on the contrary. The only spot on the clean jewish reputation is Israels ME politics and I dont belive anyone is judging the jewish people for that as a group. [...]I'll let a brilliant German journalist speak for me - with apologies for the translation quality:
Every traffic policeman is familiar with the phenomenon of dead drunk drivers, their speech blurred, assuring that they are absolutely sober. Same way with antisemitism. Whether or not a person is an antisemite can never be a matter of self-judgement. It can never suffice to say: no, I am not. All such a person can say is: I don't want to be one. Nearly all rapists claim that they love all the women in the world, it's just the one that he has raped that provoked him by her inciting behaviour. [...]Same goes for child molesters: it would take a long time to find one who doesn't characterize himself as the best friend of all children.Those of you who read German can enjoy the original:

Liberalismus der dummen Kerls
Henryk M. Broder
19. Juni 2002
http://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/archiv/politik/politik-03413.html

[James]

[I agree, but it must be international supervision not israeli. [/B][/QUOTE]

If You are speaking of International Supervision of Criminal Arab
terrorists, i agree. You know, it's a shame, Israel supports these
Palestinians (Arabs), but also defends Jews from Arab(Palestinian) attacks. Something should be done! What do You think about removing troublemakers (Arabs) from Israel and placing them in say, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or any other Terrorist Nation supporting same.

[cerulean]

Northlander, I posted some time back in this thread that I think Norway has done numerous good things in the world, and in particular it has provided concrete assistance in the Third World and helped to advance the rights of women and children and humans generally. This is incontrovertible and true for other Scandinavians too. (I'm not pointing out the shortcomings here, just focusing on the positives.)

In the case of Israel, though, Norway (and the EU) is in the position of acting like armchair generals, telling Israel that it should not defend itself when its very existence is under attack.

My perception is that this attitude comes across as being both removed from reality and holier-than-thou. I hate (and I expect most people hate) the fact that innocents are killed in any conflict. But without total, all-out warfare, would World War II have been won by the US? If the US hadn't won WWII, I doubt Scandinavia would be in any position now to act as it does to advance human rights and progress.

The war on terrorism is against a different sort of enemy and it's being fought on amorphous fronts. But if the civilized world does not win this war, Scandinavians will not be in any position to do whatever good work they do either.

[Northlander]

Mediocrates. I understood it as you meant that jews and americans would be more easy to pick on than anybody else. That it costs less. I dont quite agree if that was what you meant.

Of course there are anti-semits. But those dont decide the political agenda in europe. Arabs burning synagogs can as well be seen as anti-israeli. There are mosques burning in europe as well and as late as yesterday someone put a chopped pig head on a building site for a mosque in the south of sweden. What I mean is that arabs are as easy targets as jews and much more easy targets than americans that are not hated as a group at all. Basically muslims and arabs in general have much more to complain about than jews in europe when it comes to harassments.

I have no idea but lets assume your numbers for norway is right. 50 000 arabs and 1100 jews. Of the harassments on jews, in norway I would take a wild guess and say that 80% are commited by the arab minority and 20% maybe by traditional neo-nazis.
In your view maybe it doesnt matter since the result are the same but its nevertheless important to analyze what might be true anti-semitism and what is a result of other things. The numbers are guesses and only built on what I see from scandinavian media and what I hear as inhabitant here.
The violence and harassments from the arab/muslim minority can in my opinion largely be connected to the israeli-arab conflicts in ME. Its more often a hate of israel that takes the form of attacks on jewish symbols and even jews than the opposite.
That is only the case with the 80% of muslim related attacks of course. The other 20% are commited by rightwing extremists as always. They are probably anti-semits as well as anti-arab.
Those guys are also the same guys that burn downs mosques or throw pigblood on muslim women. They dont discriminate in their hatred so to speak. They would have attacked jews no matter what. They attack people from eritrea as well not knowing whatever religion or culture they are members of.
If you with some magic sollution removed the hate between Israel and the arab nations the attacks on jews in europe would drop with 80% the same day. The jews would be no more unsecure than any minority group.
During the Bosnian war we saw an increase of attacks on former yugoslavians here. Some shootings and restaurant burnings.
A clear result of the conflict more than a common hatred of slavonics.
Just look at the fact that the agitations against jews in europe has increased since the conflict escalated in ME.
Its because of Israel not some fundamental hate of jews from the arab minorities, in general. Judaism becomes a symbol of Israel not the opposite as you tends to belive.

To sum up. What makes jews maybe the second most harrassed minority group in europe after muslims are the fact that one could add the hatred of israel to the traditional rasism and anti-semitism that has already been here.
Its important to separate the hatred even though I can understand that those of you that are jewish feels it maybe doesnt matter.

I told you. I don't really care what the official or unofficial reaction of Norway is. What I object to is the criticism you heap on others for exactly the same national self interest.
NOT the same national self interests.

Vic:

Every traffic policeman is familiar with the phenomenon of dead drunk drivers, their speech blurred, assuring that they are absolutely sober. Same way with antisemitism. Whether or not a person is an antisemite can never be a matter of self-judgement. It can never suffice to say: no, I am not. All such a person can say is: I don't want to be one. Nearly all rapists claim that they love all the women in the world, it's just the one that he has raped that provoked him by her inciting behaviour. [...]Same goes for child molesters: it would take a long time to find one who doesn't characterize himself as the best friend of all children.
Well, what can I say? I guess that ends the discussion. Why should I even try to say that Im not anti-semit? Maybe I am without knowing it. And you all are rasists. Dont pretend that you do not hate all arabs cause you do anyway no matter what reason you might have.
I dont agree to this at all. If I killed a man that happened to be jewish because he was raping my girl. I would still claim I was not anti-semitic. My reason would be hate but the fact he was jewish would have nothing to do with it. In your opinion I would be marked as rasist and anti-semitic without any possibility to defend to that. Your examples with rapists and childmolesters are really not comparable. They are mostly sick anyway.

How would you see a statement from a IDF soldier that claims he have nothing against arabs at all but just the guy he just shot because HE was provoking him by throwing rocks?
Should we mark him as rasist without question?

Cerulean:

But without total, all-out warfare, would World War II have been won by the US? If the US hadn't won WWII, I doubt Scandinavia would be in any position now to act as it does to advance human rights and progress.
What is the point? Really? We have been into the WWII discussion over and over again. Should I applause all wars becauce one war 60 years ago was legitimate.
If it wasnt for the russians germany would have won too.
Are you implying that I should shut up and just suck up to the russians for eternity?
-Let the russians invade eastern europe and afghanistan cause they have earned our support.
I can admire the struggle against the nazis nothing else.
From USA and others. Apart from that it could as well as been 300 hundred years ago or on jupiter for that matter. I dont put any guilt on young germans and therefore dont give cred to young russians or americans.

You cannot compare Israels conflict with the palestinians with Allies vs Axis anyway.
Israels existence is not at stake. Its a good damn lie and myth.
Usa´s war aginst terrorism can hardly be seen as a fight for EXISTENSE either. Try to see it for what it is. Seriously.
Do you understand how hard it is to argue with you when you come up with clear lies? Give me one example of when Norway have stated that they do not support israels right to exist. One example when they objected to Israels armed forces to defend?
Cant you even see when other nations are supporting you anymore? That sentence "telling Israel that it should not defend itself when its very existence is under attack. " really makes one wonder if you have even listened to anything that anyone from europe ever said.

[elke]

The crux of the matter is whether the Europeans are in a position to judge whether or not Israel's existence is on the line. Whether it's "evil intent" that provokes them to demand certain actions (or inaction) from Israel is a different issue: it is highly likely that many - if not most - Europeans, do not harbor resentment that Israel exists.

The example you gave, Northlander, of killing a hypothetical Jew because he was to harm your girlfriend is fallacious in this discussion: that's not what is happening in terms of Synagogue burning, nor shootings of Jews in Europe. These people, let alone buildings, are not "defiling" anything, unless you call their very existence "defiling". The situation you describe is more along the lines of what Israel finds itself in.

[Northlander]

The hypothetical example I gave was to oppose the german journalist´s views which Vic posted. Not to explain real shootings of jews in europe.

[cerulean]

Northlander, Israel is surrounded by hostile enemies that do want to terminate its existence, and which have been trying to do so, in various ways, since Day 1 of its existence. Israel is also under constant threat from attacks by various terrorist groups. Don't forget the 50 tons of weapons captured by Israel a few months ago and the rocket launchers pointed at Israeli towns.

I am hopeful that Israel will win out, as it has done so far, but this cannot be assumed if appropriate actions are not taken.

Any rebuke to Israel from a European country that doesn't address these realities seems at best naive and at worst overtly hostile.

My point about bringing up WWII was not to make Swedes feel bad. My point was that military action is unavoidable sometimes for the sake of the greater good. I think that the majority of Israel's military actions fall into this category.

I don't understand your point about the United States. Are you suggesting no action should be taken to prevent future terrorist attacks? If the problem is not addressed, terrorist attacks will happen more frequently and will eventually make normal life impossible. That's inevitable.

[Mediocrates]

OTOH you - the collective you of the EU have offered nothing in the way of any constructive option or alternative other than parroting whatever PLO or Saudi plan floats by. You can say you are balanced but at best you are inattentive or perhaps indifferent. More than likely you have your own Machiavellian self interest at heart. Or maybe it's just a case of a mindless machine continuing onward.

Why mess with the machine? - just claim that it works and it should continue. But in the face of 30 years of broken machinery the EU raises its collective hand and says "More of this - it works it really does it's just broken in a philosophical way -let's send more money to the PA and claim that more of nothing is progress..."

But it's not progress. It's just more of the same. And that's being generous. So perhaps it isn't a case of glinty eyed Europeans quietly rubbing their hands together waiting for the final solution.

I don't know, probably not.

I hope not - I know my ancestors ran at full tilt fleeing for their lives for some kind of reason and some kind of reality neither you nor I can understand or appreciate.

It's more of the same. So the question you have to ask yourself is how is doing the same damn dumb broken thing over and over knowing it doesn't work not the act of a neurotic? Isn't that the definition of neurosis? Compulsively doing the same destructive acts over and over in the face of overwhelming evidence that it doesn't work? Is it just the way bureacracies function, or misfire?

Is Europe doomed to accomplish little and defend and explain much? Is the next best plan right around the corner from Egypt, Afghanistan, OPEC, Indonesia and not from Brussels or London or Berlin?

Where is Robert Walpole when you need him?

Frankly I can't see what you the collective you, bring to the table.

[elke]

Originally posted by Northlander
The hypothetical example I gave was to oppose the german journalist´s views which Vic posted. Not to explain real shootings of jews in europe.

But as I understood it, what the German journalist was saying is that antisemitism is difficult to detect in oneself and that much of what is happening in Europe now is due to it. You countered that point with the mentioned example, to show that antisemitism per se is not necessarily the motive behind these crimes. IMO, that German article was about the situation in Europe, complete with the synagogue burnings and shootings of Jews, which means that the example you presented is not a valid illustration of what is happening.

[Northlander]

fair enough. It was hypothitical and not so relevant maybe.
But I still belive that the majority of the synagog burnings can be seen as anti-israeli. Its not anti-semitism but rather jews becomes the symbol of arab frustration agaisnt the situation in Israel. It has less to do with the situation in europe.

Without the situation in ME we wouldnt have any probems between jews and arabs in europe. Its connected the whole time.

In those cases when its not connected it can be seen as true anti semitism.

[elke]

Well, antisemitism was "based" on various "reasons" at different times, so Israel is just another excuse for it - fashionable at the present moment. Are the Indians having such problems in Europe, to this extent? What about other groups in conflict?

Of course, it is difficult to discern the true situation in Europe from here, we must go by what is reported, but no serious threat to other communities in conflict with the Muslims or others are known here.

[Mediocrates]

But isn't this all spinmeistering. The Mandarins of European Opinion want to say there is no antisemitism there is not problem because why? Trucks aren't loading up Jews to 'move to the East'? Because there are no Nuremberg Laws? Because it's not organized?

Gee that's some wonderful standard isn't it? What kind of pinhead thinking goes into saying - "that's not so bad, come back to me and complain if you get murdered, until then there is no antisemitism." If you walked through Harlem (New York's Harlem) and someone ripped your blonde hair out of your head and punched you in your blue blue aryan eye and it happened not every day but maybe 5 times a month would you say that there's no problem that's in all in your head and you're just being thinskinned???? Would you get on your knees and thank god because at least it wasn't a cop doing it to you?

[JustSad]

Guys,

you have a nice cosy corner here where you can stimulate each others hate. Maybe you should free your brains form this overload of hate and start using the grey cells for what they are meant for. Think! Don't be such an ignorent mushroomhead. Think!

[JustSad]

Mediocrates,

(what is mediocre about you, by the way?) Have you ever been here in Europe? Do you even have the slightest clue about the things you are talking about?

[ibrodsky]

JustSad,

After 34 posts like the last one, maybe it's time you try discussing the issues.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by JustSad
Mediocrates,

(what is mediocre about you, by the way?) Have you ever been here in Europe? Do you even have the slightest clue about the things you are talking about?

Lots
Yes
Yes

[Northlander]

Well, antisemitism was "based" on various "reasons" at different times, so Israel is just another excuse for it - fashionable at the present moment. Are the Indians having such problems in Europe, to this extent? What about other groups in conflict?
Ive already told you that there has been problems in europe during for example the wars in former yugoslavia. There are also numerous other conflicts in european countries between other minority groups. We have greeks and turks. During Iran-iraq war there were incidents. Gypsies are far more harrassed than jews.
I dont say you shouldnt react and I react every time I see anyting that can even remotely be seen as rasism here. But what I AM saying is that you should not see this as a result of hatred directed only at jews and for the reason of them being jews only.
Second generation immigrants in europe with arab heritage see the huge reporting from ME something that other minority groups did during the bosnian war etc but then from their conflicts. They are pumped with information regarding the conflict and therefore it becomes something that affect their daily life. It did not before and the aggression towards israel and jews where not that bad in europe.
The fact that you focus so hard on the synagogs burnings are partly because you are jewish and also because media in USA probably tends to focus on that rather than the mosque burnings and the harrassments of muslims or immigrants as a whole group.
The situation in france is somewhat worse than in the rest of europe maybe and that proves it has a clear arab connection. Since the arab minority in europe is larger than in most other countries. Which in turn proves its a israeli problem more than a jewish.
It would be interesting to hear your opinion on the destruction and sabotages targeted on mosques in europe. How do you explain them?


you have a nice cosy corner here where you can stimulate each others hate. Maybe you should free your brains form this overload of hate and start using the grey cells for what they are meant for. Think! Don't be such an ignorent mushroomhead. Think!
Very constructive post JustSad.
At least we are trying to have a dialog here. I found that more constructive than most things. How much information would I get as european without hearing the personal views of israelis and americans? And the links they post for that matter. Gather information is part of the grey cells job if Im not misstaken.

[danholo]

Originally posted by Northlander
fair enough. It was hypothitical and not so relevant maybe.
But I still belive that the majority of the synagog burnings can be seen as anti-israeli. Its not anti-semitism but rather jews becomes the symbol of arab frustration agaisnt the situation in Israel. It has less to do with the situation in europe.

Without the situation in ME we wouldnt have any probems between jews and arabs in europe. Its connected the whole time.

In those cases when its not connected it can be seen as true anti semitism.

Oh please...
You think the desecration of a Welsh synagogue and ripping it's sacred scroll was "anti-Israel"?
What you are talking is pure BS.
Anti-Semitism is alive and well. The situation in Israel just sparked off MORE Jew-hate and other antisemites just came out into the open.
Anti-Semitism is widespread within the Arab nation.
Incitement of hatred toward Jews in religious facilities, the media etc. is nothing more but antisemitism and of course it is connected to Israel. The lies the Arab government broadcast to their people is outrageous lies, i.e. The Protocol of the Elders of Zion is a best seller in Arab countries.
There wouldn't be any "arab frustration" if the Arabs wouldn't have attacked Israel in the first place. This antisemitism is an old remnant from over a hundred years back and it's still going strong. Anti-Semitism is on the rise and you're just making excuses for it just being "anti-Israel". So why do they attack people wearing kipot and not the Israeli embassies and other solely Israeli targets?

[Mediocrates]

North

If you were a lobster you'd find no quarrel with the person who dropped you in a pot of water and slowly turned up the heat.

How is it that this only becomes a problem to you AFTER something drastic happens. One would think it is incumbant upon any modern society to be proactive in the face of provocation. Isn't that what civil rights ARE?

You are starting to sound like the right wing neocon Libertarians of the US whom you decry. If everything is just a legal or economic transaction and 'rule of law' means 'sue me (take action) if you have the balls' then you're not that much different from all the Rush Limbaughs, Pat Buchanans, Cato Institutes, Brookings Institutions of the world you profess to hate so much.

[Northlander]

You think the desecration of a Welsh synagogue and ripping it's sacred scroll was "anti-Israel"?
Yes I think it was anti-israeli. It CAN have been anti-semitic but its not necessarely so. You guys assume its an attack on judaism and its not always so. Without the recent media boom on the ME conflict we would have very little attacks on jews in europe.
There is still a possibility that the attack in Wales you mention was commited by regular neo-nazis or another group that blame jews for about everything. Then its clearly anti-semitism.
Exactly what is so difficult to understand. That the harrassments on jews have increased since the violence in ME escalated?
when media stops reporting from ME and things cool down then harrassments in europe will drop to about zero. Thats the plain truth. As long as war agianst terror goes on, attacks on muslims in europe will happen. When it ends and not every newspaper consists of pictures of muslim men in beard and pictures of ground zero people will forget that they hate islam.

[Northlander]

Mediocrates, im not sure what you mean?
Im not even the slightest pacifist. But Im not paranoid either.
If someone hated me I try t ounderstan why.
You are looking for the simpliest explaination which in this case is not the right one. To claim jews are critisisied and even attacked ONLY because they are...jews. That is what you are saying over and over again in different ways. You call it anti-semitism regardless if it is a jewish problem or not.
Sometimes but not always you must separate those things.
When I critisise Israel I dont critisise one single thing about the jewish people. Not the jewish people not the individuals, not the religion or the jewish culture.
You are like the lobster in that case. Desperate to defend, using it claws against everything, believing everyone wants to boil it.
By you I dont mean jews in general, only the jews I have heard on this forum seeing things like you, mediocrates, does.

[Mediocrates]

The recent media 'blitz' you mention did nothing more than lend credence to impulses people already wanted to exercize. Even you can admit it's become very fashionable to say out loud you hate Jews, Israelis, Americans nowadays.

But even if what you say were true how is it that mosques here don't lick the sky with flames and wreath their surrounding cities in a smoky haze? Months after 9-11 we are still living through the loudest xenophobic anti arab period in history and probably the most militant anti foreigner period in US history since WW1. It is more than fashionable to hate arabs here, it's promoted in subtle ways in the news & from politicians. Hell we're imprisoning our own citizens as supporters and sympathizers even before foreign citizen al-Qaeda #1 has yet to even be indicted. And here muslims are a very small and defenseless minority. All the more likely they'd be picked on with impunity.


So how is it that the media's apparent incitement to riot hasn't achieved what you say it has from Lisbon to Moscow? Are we that bad at shaping opinion? I don't think so.

I think what is different is that however we Americans as a populace feels about Arabs, or muslims (or Sikhs who we frequently confuse for muslims) we don't have that deeply soaked personal animosity about them. We're mad at them because of our views on Iraq and because they control oil and because of 9-11. And that's about it.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Northlander

Yes I think it was anti-israeli. It CAN have been anti-semitic but its not necessarely so. You guys assume its an attack on judaism and its not always so. Without the recent media boom on the ME conflict we would have very little attacks on jews in europe.
There is still a possibility that the attack in Wales you mention was commited by regular neo-nazis or another group that blame jews for about everything. Then its clearly anti-semitism.
Exactly what is so difficult to understand. That the harrassments on jews have increased since the violence in ME escalated?
when media stops reporting from ME and things cool down then harrassments in europe will drop to about zero. Thats the plain truth. As long as war agianst terror goes on, attacks on muslims in europe will happen. When it ends and not every newspaper consists of pictures of muslim men in beard and pictures of ground zero people will forget that they hate islam.

You are confused by the fact that Israel's Muslim enemies make no distinction between their hatred of Israel and hatred of Jews. This is why they attack synagogues.

You suggest the West should not blame all Muslims for terrorism. I can agree with that. But you are blind to the fact that Israel's Muslim enemies blame all Jews for what they see as Israel's crimes.

Think about it. Attacking synagogues in Europe is never justified, excusable, or even understandable. Unless, of course, you are prepared to say that attacks by Jews on mosques would be an understandable reaction to terrorism.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Northlander
If someone hated me I'd try to understand why

Why would you do that?


You call it anti-semitism regardless if it is a jewish problem or not. Sometimes but not always you must separate those things.

I'm note sure if that is a profound statement or not. If a gang beats up a black hat, torches a shul, defecates on a Torah it's either a revolutionary political act or it's random violence. I almost pity you if you believe that.

[Mediocrates]

When it ends and not every newspaper consists of pictures of muslim men in beard and pictures of ground zero people will forget that they hate islam.


Woops, let out a Freudian slip there.

[Northlander]

You suggest the west should not blame all Muslims for terrorism. I can agree with that. But you are blind to the fact that Israel's Muslim enemies blame all Jews for what they see as Israel's crimes.
No Im not blind. I just posted several time that exactly that is what has happened lately. SOME people tends to do just that.
On both sides. That is why jews AND muslim symbols are attacked far away from the actual conflict.
But not ALL muslims. Its still a clear majority of the muslims in europe that wouldnt dream of going out and attack jews. No matter what their opinion of israel might be.

So how is it that the media's apparent incitement to riot hasn't achieved what you say it has from Lisbon to Moscow? Are we that bad at shaping opinion? I don't think so.
I think what is different is that however we Americans as a populace feels about Arabs, or muslims (or Sikhs who we frequently confuse for muslims) we don't have that deeply soaked personal animosity about them. We're mad at them because of our views on Iraq and because they control oil and because of 9-11. And that's about it.
I think what differs is the fact that we always have had more problems with dislike towards foreigners in europe than you have in USA. That is a discussion in itself but to put it short, you dont have this regional and national and racial feelings than many in europe has.
Also you are much better in taking care of immigrants and make them members of the US society. Its very different here. Your nation is built on immigrants in another way.
The subtle ways in media to promote hatred against muslims are here in europe too. thats what I have tried to explain. That why muslims get harrassed. 9-11 only made things worse. And we often DONT have a small minority of muslims but rather quite big in some places. They are nevertheless somewhat weak in society and an easy target.
We dont have that promotion from media against jews. Could never happen. Things would turn absolutely up side down if that happened. I would be the first to protest. As I turn against medias picture of the muslims right now.
When it comes to young arabs attacking jews and jewish symbols here in europe its very few people that actually do that. But it happens. Media, their families personal experiance with israel maybe matters. The fact that immigrants in europe tends to live in fairly closed communities where their views are not opposed but rather nurished by other people with the same views also matters. And of course the fact that they are very far away from a conflict they think about alot and therfore a few persons turns against the only thing they can turn against. Defenceless jews and buildings. Of course its hate. Hate of everyting the jews and israelis stands for. But the situation would be equal if the israelis would not have been jews. It has happened before. Its not a religous and cultural phenomenon. Its simplier than that. Japanese were attacked on the streets in the states after pearl harbour. There is a simple explanaition for that.
To call it hatred of buddism or the japanese culture is not totally accurate. They are japanese, they are close, they are weak. And people are angry and hate. Then blaim them all and just beat them up.

[Northlander]

When it ends and not every newspaper consists of pictures of muslim men in beard and pictures of ground zero people will forget that they hate islam.
Woops, let out a Freudian slip there

In what way?
How did I slip?

What I meant was that those people fearing and hating islam right now does it because they are fed with pictures from 9-11 and the big bad threat of muslims.
When all papers stop reporting for a year people forget about the threat and of all muslims lurking around in the shadows.
Even lomplighter will calm down.

[Northlander]

So why do they attack people wearing kipot and not the Israeli embassies and other solely Israeli targets?

How in hell would I know? Because they are cowards? Because those targets are guarded? Because the guy wearing a kipot was running in to them a dark night in the metro, and the embassy are at the other part of the city?
Pick your choice.
You perfectly well knows that the fact that a few young arabs attacks jewish symbols in europe are not a result of growing anti-semitism. Its a result of a few arabs blaiming jews in general for a conflict in ME they feel are theirs. Why some do that and most other people dont is another question.

Most second generation arabs in europe would not care the slightest about the jewish minority in their cities if it were not for the pictures they see everyday from israel.
How would you know by the way? You are from finland. There you havent got more than a handful immigrant anyway.
Most jews and arabs lives in fairly good harmony side by side in Paris for example. The problems we discuss now with harrassments are a drop in the ocean compared to the friendly contacts between the two groups everyday.
This must not be forgotten in this discussion.
Some people always chooses to hate especially when their only contact with the enemy is by television and they know nothing about the other side. Maybe havent even met one.

[Mediocrates]

Ok so let's boil it down.

European muslims are protesting poltically in response to the images they see on TV of what exactly? Tanks in the streets of Jenin. OK the European media has done it's job whipping up apparently clueless people to misdirect their political hatred toward some other group. Call them 'Eskimos', but in this case they are called Jews. They don't mean to protest politically agains the 'Jews' but they are fighting by proxy against the Israelis. It is irrelevant that most Israelis are Jewish and that most European Jews are not Israeli. OK That's just a statistic, yes?

That's it. I'm done, I'm too busy laughing.

[Northlander]

Without israel arabs in europe would not burn synagogs or care about jews at all.
Without israel europeans would not think much about jews at all.

You overestimate the importance of sionism, semitism, and the jewish history for the average european.
If it was not for ME people would not care. Exept for a few skinheads. Those are the only anti-semits we have got here.

Im done too.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Northlander
Without israel arabs in europe would not burn synagogs or care about jews at all.
Without israel europeans would not think much about jews at all.

You overestimate the importance of sionism, semitism, and the jewish history for the average european.
If it was not for ME people would not care. Exept for a few skinheads. Those are the only anti-semits we have got here.

Im done too.

Oh no, no one ever looks for scapegoats. And Jews are never the scapegoats.

There was no Israel in the 1930s or 40s. But this did not stop Europeans from committing genocide against Jews.

What is your point, Northlander? Surely it is not that while there have been hundreds of attacks on Jews and synagogues over the past year in Europe, there is no significant anti-semitism. This is obviously not true.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Northlander (post #66 http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=16724#post16724 )
Vic:

------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Every traffic policeman is familiar with the phenomenon of dead drunk drivers, their speech blurred, assuring that they are absolutely sober. Same way with antisemitism. Whether or not a person is an antisemite can never be a matter of self- judgement. It can never suffice to say: no, I am not. All such a person can say is: I don't want to be one. Nearly all rapists claim that they love all the women in the world, it's just the one that he has raped that provoked him by her inciting behaviour. [...]Same goes for child molesters: it would take a long time to find one who doesn't characterize himself as the best friend of all children.

------------------------------------------------------------

Well, what can I say? I guess that ends the discussion. Why should I even try to say that Im not anti-semit? Maybe I am without knowing it.[...]You are getting the basic point quite correctly. The louder someone screams that he is not an antisemite the more he makes a fool of himself in Jewish eyes.

It's easier with drunken drivers of course, since traffic policemen can bundle them off to blood tests. With non-antisemitism the burden of proof lies squarely on the self-defined non-antisemite, whether an individual or a group. The stronger he insists on his virtues, the lesser his credibility. Better not tie yourself in such knots from the start.

As for the attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions in Europe - do you have any insider knowledge of the Arab/Muslim communities in Scandinavia? Do the attacks under discussion and the reactions on them follow the pattern (a pattern, i.e. with plenty exceptions) I have observed elsewhere:
(1) The perpetrators are mostly young males from low-income families;
(2) There are no Palestinians among them;
(3) Israeli institutions, businesses etc. are, even if vulnerable, not targeted;
(4) Direct appeals to stop the violence come from Muslim clergy, community leaders, activists etc., but seldom if ever from non-Muslims, representatives of the majorities in the resp. countries?

[mizpah]

Northlander has a right to defend the stance of his/her country but there is also a responsibility as a nation to propose how to deal with terror against the free world.

Opting out is not an option that will solve the problem. Southern Ireland refused to join the conflict against Hitler yet they continue to enjoy the fruits of freedom. They do not attend an annual rememberance day service even though their own people joined the British Army to die on the fields of Europe.

People left their homes in Australia, Canada, America, Africa, Britian, France and others to defend the freedom that Northlander enjoys. I knew a soldier who told the British Army that he was a total pacifist so they gave him the job of carrying the stretchers of his dead and wounded colleagues.

What happens when the rapist stalks our daughters? do we rationalise his behaviour and seek to make an agreement that he can get some of what he wants if he controls some of his behaviour? When the thief comes to the home, do we make a deal that he can have some of the silverware provided he does not ask for it all?

Or do we cry out to our next door neighbour to come and rescue us and when it gets rough blame him for being too hard on the unwanted visitor?

How do we choose, do we prefer that our friends and the innocent should die and the terrorist should live in order to uphold our belief that it is a moral wrong to strike anyone even in self defence?

If it is wrong to kill the terrorist, it is equally wrong for the terrorist to kill others. But what happens when the terrorist knowing the belief of the pacifist enjoys killing in sure knowledge that all the pacifists will eventually be under mother earth and he will have a marvellous time setting up a cruel dictatorship?

Democracy which is the sovereign will of the people arises out of freedom. Freedom to worship, to travel, to protest, to assemble, to pursue activities without fear of imprisonment, torture or death because someone disagrees with your existance and your activities, However, freedom has to be actively defended and if force is needed then it is well justified.

The philosopher can sit inside a barrel all day and dream up great thoughts and words of wisdom but when the terrorist attaches a bomb and blows the philospher and the barrel apart it is too late the dogma dies and terror lives.

The EC community of fat cats and well paid politicians brought there to keep them quiet and controlled seem to be soft toward terror. Their history does them no justice and they have allowed America and Britian to take the initiative on most occasions against terrorist activity.

Remember how Hitler came to power, the moderates though that by bringing him into government he would reform and they would wrap him in the clothes of office and democracy. He sacked them all and brought his friends into power. He then needed someone to blame for the state of the economy so the Jew was a good scape goat for the sins of the nation. Many good Germans kept quiet for fear of the Gestapo and terror soon spread throughout the land.

Self preservation caused citizens to succumb to the bully and darkness decended over a free people. Today the same mistake is being made by so called diplomats who wheel and deal with people's lives and future to try and gain "peace in our time".

As many now flock to the battle fields of Europe to see the war graves of the fallen, how can we believe that they died there in vain. What treachery to compromise with evil forces just because we have vested interests. Lest we forget, we will remember them.

If we do not take the gloves of to terror we will soon lose our hands and the strength to fight.

[elke]

Originally posted by Northlander
Without israel arabs in europe would not burn synagogs or care about jews at all.
Without israel europeans would not think much about jews at all.

You overestimate the importance of sionism, semitism, and the jewish history for the average european.
If it was not for ME people would not care. Exept for a few skinheads. Those are the only anti-semits we have got here.

Im done too.

Ah, but there is Israel. Ultimately, the current situation of Jews in Europe is not very different from that during the Crusades, on the philosophical level. At that time, the idea behind the pogroms was "if we are going to liberate the Holy Land from the infidels, let's start with the infidels in our midst". Now we see immigrants from places not too far away from Israel, but attacking not Israeli targets, but the more vulnerable European Jewish ones.

I have no doubt that there are many, many people in Europe who are not antisemitic. I have no doubt that some of these people are levelling criticism at Israeli policies because they disagree with the particular actions, with no malice intended. I will even grant the benefit of the doubt to the claim that the reason for European pro-Palestinian stance is self interest.

However, the sinagogue burnings, the shootings of the Jews, and other such actions are indeed very much part and parcel of antisemitism. The very anti-Israeli perceptions (as opposed to criticism of specific actions) are antisemitic in nature.

Attacks against Serbs, Greeks, etc. in Europe, by the way, are also symptoms of racism , not of "conflict". AFAIK, these hotly disputed territories are not located in France, Germany, or whatever other European country these groups happen to occupy at this moment. Therefore, the basis for these kinds of attacks is purely, purely racist - for lack of better word.

[cerulean]

Northlander, what do you think of the recent news that Queen Silvia of Sweden's father, Walther Sommerlath - a German, joined the Nazi Party in 1934? This had been denied for many years. Note that I am not saying that Silvia is to blame for her father's actions.

Of course, Walther Sommerlath, Silvia's father, was hardly alone in his Nazi sympathies. Much of European royalty and nobility were sympathizers (although few went so far as to join the Nazi Party). The Queen Mother received Chamberlain with great fanfare and triumph after his return from the conference where he betrayed Czechoslovakia. I can't remember the exact details of Italian royalty, but there was serious Nazi sympathy there also. That is for starters. (Later, of course, the Queen Mother and King George VI were instrumental in keeping up Britain's spirits during the German bombing, but at least during the 1930s, much of English aristocracy had Nazi sympathies.)

Anyway, the point of all of this is that you can hardly blame anyone who looks at Europe with a jaundiced and suspicious eye. I am referring to events of 60 years ago, more or less, but how can you blame anyone who thinks some aspects of this ideological sympathy and/or collaboration and/or participation might still be present? I think it is up to Europe to prove that there has been a wholesale change.

[Northlander]

Oh no, no one ever looks for scapegoats. And Jews are never the scapegoats.

Of course they are. Their have always been people in europe blaiming jews for about everything there is.
There still are such people but what I mean is that there is just a handful of them these days. Its not the 40th anymore. Europe has done about everything it can to learn from history. Its tiredsome to always hear about WWII when the situation then is so far as it could ever be from that now.


What is your point, Northlander? Surely it is not that while there have been hundreds of attacks on Jews and synagogues over the past year in Europe, there is no significant anti-semitism. This is obviously not true.

The attacks the last year are related to israels more offensive position towards the palestinians. Obviously!! Otherwise we would have seen just as many attacks every year from the time of 1945 to 2002 as this year. Increased activity in ME = increased activity against jews. In ME and europe. Cant you really see it?
Im not defending it? Im just pointing out to you that its not a result of some strange new found sudden hatred against jews from a broad european majority. 200 attacks on jews could be commited by 50 persons or 200 persons. Maybe even 1000 persons. Among maybe 300 million europeans or however you like to count, that is NOT a significant anti-semitic movement.


You are getting the basic point quite correctly. The louder someone screams that he is not an antisemite the more he makes a fool of himself in Jewish eyes.

Stop attacking people that are far from being anti-semitic that they are and concentrate on the those that are.
There are always a tendency among minoritys to overestimate the importence of the fact that they are a minority. Sometimes its relevant sometimes its not.
If a black man are getting beaten by cops and if he would instantly blame the cops for being rasists. Then the fact that the same cops was beating up 3 white persons the same week would never, never work as an argument at that guys. He would be defensive and probably not even consider the facts. No matter how much you tried to tell him he is not a black victim but rather a victim among others he would focus on what he thinks is the issue. His own skin. Its maybe understandable and there are reasons for it but it has nothing to do with the situations when in fact some rasist cops REALLY beats up a person because of his color. If the black guys volunterely got into a fist fight with one of the cops before he got beaten and he still would scream about rasism, without even consider his own part in it. I think he will have a very tough life as member of a minority. All non blacks would in his mind be against him. Clear paranoia.

[Northlander]

As for the attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions in Europe - do you have any insider knowledge of the Arab/Muslim communities in Scandinavia? Do the attacks under discussion and the reactions on them follow the pattern (a pattern, i.e. with plenty exceptions) I have observed elsewhere:
(1) The perpetrators are mostly young males from low-income families;
(2) There are no Palestinians among them;
(3) Israeli institutions, businesses etc. are, even if vulnerable, not targeted;
(4) Direct appeals to stop the violence come from Muslim clergy, community leaders, activists etc., but seldom if ever from non-Muslims, representatives of the majorities in the resp. countries?

This IS the issue and the question rather than your picture of some huge anti-semitic movement that you alraedy made up your mind about. Yes I have fairly good personal knowledge about the arab and especially the palestinian community in Scandinavia.
(1) absolutely true. almost without exeption I think.
(2) somewhat true. most arab minorities in europe are not palestinian but of course young european/palestinians would be represented among those people attacking jews too.
(3) yes also true, and this is the most important thing maybe.
(4) Im must probalby surprise you by claiming that the appeals from the muslim clergy etc are not sufficient. They could be more influencial in this, absolutely but its true they do more than most people from the non-muslim majority.

The most correct picture of all this I think is, without getting into to much details, that its all about a few young disorganised second generation arabs. They often live in fairly closed communitys and they often have difficulties coming into the european society. The main point is that they are looking for things that gives them an identity and also can give them some sort of respect they cant found in the ordinary society and that is mostly found in what separates them from the majority. They identify with their arab heritage. Often much more than their parents do, but they are mostly not as religous as their parents for example. They often choose which customs to adopt from europe and which to dislike. One thing that is I dare to say common for all these guys are that their view on israel is just as I think you can figure out. They identify with the arabs in ME and tends to belive that if just they themself could take part in the struggle they would have won long time ago.
Some come up with a way to play cool and at the same time get something to do at saturday night and that might be to tag the jewish cemetary. Some goes further and burn down the local synagog. Beat up some poor jewish guy in a street corner etc.
They have absolutely no idea what companies in citys might be owned by jews. They would not have the endurance to find out and organise which makes point (3) true. They could really hurt jews living in europe with actions like that but they are mostly acting in frustration and sudden anger. Its not a broad movement neither sanctioned from any muslim community in europe. Its childsplay so to speak with a few tragic exeptions. Childsplay with serious consecuenses for those involved.

All this is true for the non-arab working class traditional skinheads in europe as well but the difference is that while skinheads targets jews by ideology the arabs do it because of Israel. Its anti-israelism that evolves in hatred and they turn against jews because they believe all jews are pro-israeli and they symbolise the enemy.

You guys should react and so should more people.What I turn against is you calling it widespread and organised and significant and even true anti-semitism. If it ever turns into a broad movement with organisation behind it will become terrorism and a danger for societies. Then the european governments will react. Not now, because its isolated incidents as a result of the changes in Isr-Pal conflict. Commited by a few disoriented individuals spread over a whole continent.


Attacks against Serbs, Greeks, etc. in Europe, by the way, are also symptoms of racism , not of "conflict". AFAIK, these hotly disputed territories are not located in France, Germany, or whatever other European country these groups happen to occupy at this moment. Therefore, the basis for these kinds of attacks is purely, purely racist - for lack of better word.

When harrassments agianst those groups are commited by individuals from their new country its rasism. But that was seldom the case for example during the yugoslavian conflict. It was commited by other individuals from that region. A miniature conflict on european soil so to speak. Croatians beating up the owner of a serb restaurant. Such things. Or rather a german beating up a german but they had yugoslavian parents from respective region.
That is exactly what is happening now in europe again. Arabs punishing jews for something other jews may or may not have done. Dont read to much into it. I really dont think you should.
Its not something that just happens to you jews. Its been so in many conflicts for many groups before and will happen again.


Northlander, what do you think of the recent news that Queen Silvia of Sweden's father, Walther Sommerlath - a German, joined the Nazi Party in 1934? This had been denied for many years. Note that I am not saying that Silvia is to blame for her father's actions.
Im pissed of really. I think this royal obsession in europe is laughable. Its always like this. She claimed she didnt know her fathers sympathies for the nazis or rather she have always denied he had any. Now when its clear he didnt even ever left the party after the war the newspapers in sweden instantly comes to her defence claiming she did not know. She might have. Its even probable in my opinion but the royal family can never be critisised as it seems. We are no better than the british in this. I for once think we should turn into a republic and save all the money being spent on the royalties. The fact he was nazi maybe doesnt mean much to the royal family since she is not even swedish but nevertheless its typical for royalists not making it a discussion.

Anyway, the point of all of this is that you can hardly blame anyone who looks at Europe with a jaundiced and suspicious eye. I am referring to events of 60 years ago, more or less, but how can you blame anyone who thinks some aspects of this ideological sympathy and/or collaboration and/or participation might still be present? I think it is up to Europe to prove that there has been a wholesale change.

I agree basically. You just shouldnt belive things have not changed at all. It have changed more than you can imagine without living here. you focus on extreme things not the normality

[Vic]

Thanks for your reply, Northlander, but, as usual, you didn't get my point. I certainly am not thinking of a huge organized movement. I'll write more later.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Northlander
----------------------------------------------------------
quote:

Do the attacks under discussion and the reactions on them follow the pattern (a pattern, i.e. with plenty exceptions) I have observed elsewhere:
(1) The perpetrators are mostly young males from low-income families;
(2) There are no Palestinians among them;

----------------------------------------------------------

(1) absolutely true. almost without exeption I think.
(2) somewhat true. most arab minorities in europe are not palestinian but of course young european/palestinians would be represented among those people attacking jews too.This is to me contradictive. Maybe I should have written "underclass" instead of "low-income". I don't know the situation in Sweden in detail, yet in the European countries I know of Palestinians are at least solid middle-class, even on modest incomes, usually with solid professional qualifications. Their children, it seems, don't have the typical underclass problems: street gangs, drugs, lack of educational opportunities etc.
The most correct picture of all this I think is, without getting into to much details, that its all about a few young disorganised second generation arabs. They often live in fairly closed communitys and they often have difficulties coming into the european society. The main point is that they are looking for things that gives them an identity and also can give them some sort of respect they cant found in the ordinary society and that is mostly found in what separates them from the majority. They identify with their arab heritage. Often much more than their parents do, but they are mostly not as religous as their parents for example. They often choose which customs to adopt from europe and which to dislike.So far so good - a textbook case for social workers.

Yet I doubt whether this applies to Palestinians, as I wrote above. AFAIK they are a singular success story when it comes to integration of non-Europeans in European societies, especially of the relatively recent arrivals. As such they do seem to stand out as a group among other Arabs/Muslims. I have yet to hear a single story of a Palestinian feeling rejected or ill-treated by "natives" on personal level, so common among all other immigrants, no matter what the background (I don't mean things like neonazi attacks in the streets, of course, but personal encounters). Nor do they tend to form closed groups, in fact, they usually communicate freely with all people imaginable.
----------------------------------------------------------
quote:
(3) Israeli institutions, businesses etc. are, even if vulnerable, not targeted;
----------------------------------------------------------

(3) yes also true, and this is the most important thing maybe.

[later on:]

They have absolutely no idea what companies in citys might be owned by jews. They would not have the endurance to find out and organise which makes point (3) true. They could really hurt jews living in europe with actions like that but they are mostly acting in frustration and sudden anger. Its not a broad movement neither sanctioned from any muslim community in europe. Its childsplay so to speak with a few tragic exeptions. Childsplay with serious consecuenses for those involved.I suppose (or rather I hope for your sake) that you mean "Israelis" in the first sentence. Please capitalize the word "Jews", as required by modern English grammar and good manners, thx. Israeli companies etc. are easy to recognize by their signs, but this is not the point. The rest we'll discuss later.
----------------------------------------------------------
(4) Direct appeals to stop the violence come from Muslim clergy, community leaders, activists etc., but seldom if ever from non-Muslims, representatives of the majorities in the resp. countries?

----------------------------------------------------------

(4) Im must probalby surprise you by claiming that the appeals from the muslim clergy etc are not sufficient. They could be more influencial in this, absolutely but its true they do more than most people from the non-muslim majority.No, you do not surprise me. I find it remarkable that few, if any, non-Muslims in Europe try to address the (potential) perpetrators directly. Don't you?

It would be easy, and, I believe, much more effective. But this would come at a price, such as discussing the grievances closer to home, and, as a consequence, revising some of the immigration/minorities policies, offering perspectives etc., which is probably the reason why some of the wiser members of the said communities are attempting to stop the rampage "from inside", but hardly anyone who has a say in politics and public life of the whole country.


What I find curious about your posts is that you leave out the attitudes of the "majority". Even the most tightly-knit immigrant communities don't exist in vacuum. There is always an exchange with the surroundings, especially among the young, since no immigrant child visiting a school can escape learning the attitudes of his "host" country well - much better in fact than most of their well-wishers would like to believe. What is the part of - for the sake of simplicity - the "normal" Swedes in the mess?

Oh, and please spare me the "you guys" talk. Bad style.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
Anyway, the point of all of this is that you can hardly blame anyone who looks at Europe with a jaundiced and suspicious eye. I am referring to events of 60 years ago, more or less, but how can you blame anyone who thinks some aspects of this ideological sympathy and/or collaboration and/or participation might still be present? I think it is up to Europe to prove that there has been a wholesale change. Speaking as a "semi-European", ;) - yes and no. Of course such traditions cannot disappear, they live on for generations (we had similar mini-discussions in "Danish asylum laws" and "Attacks in France" threads), they are in fact, part of the cultural fibre, like it or not (not that I intend to get nasty, but isn't it the same with racism in the US?). Therefore no one can realistically "prove that there has been a wholesale change".

The first question would be: what are the criteria? Absolutely no antisemitic statements/acts? Only a few, perpetrated by marginal groups? Specific gestures? It is getting difficult. And what about the treatment of other minorities, who were not there 60 years ago, but are subject of discussions that make any history-conscious person uncomfortable, to put it mildly? Should they be left out of this "litigation", as some suggest?

The second: who is in charge of presenting this proof? European countries happen to be democracies, with guaranteed freedom of the speech, pluralism and similar luxuries. There will always be differences of opinion.

The third: who is the judge? The American public? The UN ( :D)?

And the fourth - "Europe". Why should the Danes or the Czech be responsible for the Germans? Do the current Germans carry responsibilty for what was going on in France this spring? Should the Irish and the Greeks send in troops to protect British synagogues?

Now seriosly, what I am trying to say is that you should try to judge on a case-by-case basis, with good knowledge of the background and of history, which vary greatly from country to country, and from situation to situation. (It's a time ago already, but actually I got told somewhere in this forum what I am not entitled to "as a European" too...).

So, please, make it a bit easier for the worthier among my current countrymen to be good :) . Don't declare them guilty until proven othrewise.


P.S.: here is smth. you can thrash "peacelover" with, should she
reappear:

Roosevelt ordered surveillance of Windsors
Rob Evans and David Hencke
Guardian
Saturday June 29, 2002
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4451101,00.html

[Willa Wright]

Originally posted by Batman
What Are The Psychological/Cultural Reasons for Anti Israeli and Anti Semitism? :confused:
The article below demonstrate that even Kosher Slaughter is forbidden by Norwegian law. Why should this matter to the Norwegian government? What is this affliction called Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israel? What are the motivations behind some of the nations' policies and their great need to suppress the Jews and push for the Jews'/ Israel's demise in the most extreme ways.

The article:

Why I won't be seeing the fjords this summer
By Bennett M. Epstein May 20, 2002

http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0397.htm

On the heels of Mr. Roed-Larsen's now-infamous remark that Israel "ceded all moral ground" in Jenin, comes word from his home country of Norway that some supermarket chains have decided to place special identification stickers on products from Israel. Other Scandinavian countries may follow suit. The Norwegians say the stickers do not constitute a "boycott" of Israel; they just want their customers, who are overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian, to pay attention to where these products are produced.
Maybe the rest of us should run down to our local supermarkets with a pad of yellow "post-it" notes so that consumers of Norwegian salmon or Jarlsberg cheese can also pay attention to where those are produced. Stick them on the packages with a note: these products come from a place with a shameful past that continues to operate as a European free zone for Neo-Nazis and other right wing extremists.

Those asking the question of whether Europeans are anti-Israel because of Israel's actions in fighting terror, or because of their own latent anti-Semitism, should study the example of Norway.

Behind the current disclaimer of a boycott you will find that Norwegians are quite experienced at boycotting Israel. Norwegian labor unions have recently refused to off-load Israeli farm produce. Last year, a Norwegian "labor youth movement" organized a campaign to ban Israeli singers from the Eurovision song contest. Another Norwegian group has been boycotting Israeli oranges since the early 90s. This group, "Boikott Israel," rejuvenated by the latest "Intifada" to include a boycott of all Israeli commerce, denies on its website that it is anti-Semitic but states that its goal is the end Israel's "50 year occupation" of, and the return of all refugees to, a "free Palestine." Not anti-Semitic? In 1941, the graffiti on Jewish businesses in Oslo read: "Jews, go to Palestine." To campaign now in Norway to get the Jews out of "Palestine" seems anti-Semitic to me, if only by process of elimination.

Indeed, the roots of Norwegian boycotts of Israel run deep. Anti-Semitism has held a unique place in Norwegian politics since the 1930s when Vidkun Quisling, later the leader of a Nazi puppet government in Norway, formed the National Union Party. While many Norwegians fought with the Resistance, many became eager collaborators of the Nazis, including some 60,000 members of the National Union. Under its auspices, Norway formed its own branch of the SS and established academies sending hundreds of officers each year to the German military. One very active neo-Nazi group in Norway today is the Institutt for norsk okkupasjonshistorie (Institute for the History of Occupied Norway), composed of descendants of members of the Quisling party, the Waffen SS and others dedicated to cleansing their wartime reputation.

The aspect of the holocaust in Norway that was particularly Norwegian was the liquidation of Jewish property, much of which was divided up by Quisling and his followers. When the war ended, the Norwegian reparations commission shamelessly accepted doctored figures kept by the Quisling government in order to reject most Jewish claims and avoid paying others more than pennies on the dollar. Then in 1997 a new commission, appointed after a journalistic expose of the injustice of the first commission, issued a report, which actually recommended adherence to the earlier decision. However, a scandal erupted when it was discovered that an organization of former Nazis had provided a scholarship to a researcher on the new commission. The Norwegian prime minister ultimately intervened and compelled the government to accept a dissenting report.

Today, neo-Nazi propaganda, band concerts and other events are commonplace in Norway. Norway's ultra right-wing groups play host to gatherings of like-minded groups from Sweden and Denmark with little fear of official interference. More significantly, according to a report published by the Stephen Roth Institute of Tel Aviv University, the extreme right wing Progress Party is the second largest party in Norway with 25 out of 160 seats in the Parliament. Among other racist and anti-immigration views, this party advocates banning male circumcision. Schechita (kosher slaughter) is already forbidden by Norwegian law.

Given their past and present history, Norwegians are hardly qualified to accuse any other country of having ceded "moral ground." Their warning stickers on Israeli goods are the modern-day equivalent of painting "Joden" on the Jewish-owned businesses of Oslo and Trondheim in 1941. We needn't be reminded that after that, all of Norway's remaining Jews were deported to Auschwitz. Fewer than 30 survived the Holocaust.

I'm not the sort that usually pays attention to boycotts and counter-boycotts, because often you don't know who you are really hurting. But there is a good reason why I won't be buying Norwegian products any time soon, or cruising on the Norwegian Line. Their stickers have caught my attention.

Views expressed by the author do not necessarily reflect those of israelinsider.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Willa Wright



Eh?

[mizpah]

I wonder will Norway be among the hordes from the North prophesied in the prophet Ezekiel chapter 38 of the Old Testament.

This can be linked to the New Testament book of Revelation chapter 20 verses 7 - 9. The Jews and the Christian Gentiles accept the Old Testament whereas the Gentile Christians accept the New Testament. Nevertheless, there is a Northern Confederacy to come agains Israel in the end times.

There is dispute between theologians on whether or not the prophecy has a literal or non-literal intrepretation. Nevertheless, there is a massive anti-Jew movement to come against Israel. Historial names such as Gog, of the land of Magog, the Prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. Persia, Cush and Put, Gomer and all his hordes; the house of Togarmah, in the uttermost part of the North. (Ezekiel 38, v's 1 - 7.)

Verse 11 speaks of this horde planning to go up against the land of unwalled villages, where people dwell securely. This obviously refers to a people who lived in peace either through a peace agreement or through top security. It is about to be broken. Verse 16 talks about these people likened to a cloud over the land there are so many of them.

Verse 18 - 23 describes the anger and judgement of God (Jehovah) against this mighty army, a great earthquake will erupt followed by hailstones of fire and brimstone. Whether this be direct from God's armaments or mans nuclear weapons, it is not going to be a minor battle. The news for the Confederacy is they they will lose mightly.

I have difficulty understanding the identities of the various ancient powers mentioned in scripture as I am not a Bible scholar but they represent something that has still to happen. So all those subscribers who sense a general uprising against Israel and the Jews have touched a part of prophecy that demonstrates their awareness of such dangers. One does not have to be a Christian to take a similar line to scripture. Collating the facts of what has and is happening can bring a person to a similar conclusion.

The willingness of Scandinavian counteries to placate right wingism and for their supermarkets to feel free and without threat to zone goods from Israel coupled with the soft bellied approach of the European Community is fuel to anyone who believes that this great event in prophecy is shaping up.



____________________________________________

Those who sup with the devil should use a long spoon

[Northlander]

Oh yes, this Northern Confederacy must be Norway and maybe the rest of the scandinavian countries. Some horde!!

[Vic]

Originally posted by Northlander
Oh yes, this Northern Confederacy must be Norway and maybe the rest of the scandinavian countries. Some horde!! It worked! :D :p

Great job, mizpah!

[Northlander]

ok Vic.


This is to me contradictive. Maybe I should have written "underclass" instead of "low-income". I don't know the situation in Sweden in detail, yet in the European countries I know of Palestinians are at least solid middle-class, even on modest incomes, usually with solid professional qualifications. Their children, it seems, don't have the typical underclass problems: street gangs, drugs, lack of educational opportunities etc.

Its not really an economical issue. I agree some arabs are middle-class as far as income goes but nevertheless they often live segregated.
They might even be treated as "underclass" regardless of their economical situation. The majority of the minority groups so to speak would never dream of commiting attacks on Jews and if you look upon the ones that have done I think you will probalby find that they are often from a family that lived very segregated
or at least more segregated than most.
Since the perpretutors are few and definitely not representative of the average arab/european its enough to say I think, that the people that commit these crimes are mostly young males that often have social problems and that are affected by the recent increase in violence in ME.
Of course some palestinians in europe must identify with the conflict as any palestinian could do in ME regardless of their parents economical situation. 99 out of 100 might not but we are talking about a few individuals here. Its no contradiction at all. That the palestinians are often fairly well integrated in society compared to some other muslim groups in europe helps alot but it does not guarantee that their children stays out of extremism.
I stated that they would be represented among them but not that I thought they were widely represented.

I suppose (or rather I hope for your sake) that you mean "Israelis" in the first sentence. Please capitalize the word "Jews", as required by modern English grammar and good manners, thx. Israeli companies etc. are easy to recognize by their signs, but this is not the point. The rest we'll discuss later.

And what have happened to some of the companies with israeli signs? Of course its those that are targeted when it happens. I have seen numerous turkish travelagents vandalised too when their logo is visible enough. My point was that since this it not an organized movement it only targets things clearly identified as Israeli or Jewish. To talk about a growing anti-semitism in europe is not accurate. Its attacks that have increased in proportion to the violence in ME and its done by a few individuals. It can increase further maybe depending on the situation in ME, but only among the arab/muslim community I belive. Its not general anti-semitism but rather an extension of the conflict. Dont you really agree to that?
It not, instead of asking me for reasons why dont you come up with your personal explanaition to why attacks on Jews in europe have increased the last year?

The non-arab majority in europe or at least sweden I think doesnt know so much as you, Vic, do about the attacks on Jews.
Media is not focusing so much on them because they are very limited and I still think they are mostly seen as isolated incidents.

[Northlander]

your last post came up while I was already writing Vic. Just wanted you to know that so you dont get the idea that you saying I was backing out had something to do with it. :)

[Vic]

Originally posted by Northlander
your last post came up while I was already writing Vic. Just wanted you to know that so you dont get the idea that you saying I was backing out had something to do with it.Sorry, deleted.
Its not really an economical issue. I agree some arabs are middle-class as far as income goes but nevertheless they often live segregated.
They might even be treated as "underclass" regardless of their economical situation. The majority of the minority groups so to speak would never dream of commiting attacks on Jews and if you look upon the ones that have done I think you will probalby find that they are often from a family that lived very segregated
or at least more segregated than most.
Since the perpretutors are few and definitely not representative of the average arab/european its enough to say I think, that the people that commit these crimes are mostly young males that often have social problems and that are affected by the recent increase in violence in ME.
Of course some palestinians in europe must identify with the conflict as any palestinian could do in ME regardless of their parents economical situation. 99 out of 100 might not but we are talking about a few individuals here. Its no contradiction at all. That the palestinians are often fairly well integrated in society compared to some other muslim groups in europe helps alot but it does not guarantee that their children stays out of extremism.
I stated that they would be represented among them but not that I thought they were widely represented.So it would be safe to say that they feel rejected by the majority of the society they are supposed to integrate into. The withdrawal into one's own culture would be quite typical for it, especially in the light of what you have written absolutely correctly somewhere else, that they are not trying to bring (radical) Islam to Europe, but to escape from it.

I'd take it a bit further and say that many expect Europe to help them in this respect, that they are not coming just to be physically safe, but also to become a legitimate and respected part of the Western society. I don't need to explain to you, I think, that the fact that so many fail lies not only with them but with many attitudes of the "natives". I am speakin of the non-Palestinians and in many cases even the non-Arab immigrants who identify with the "Palestinian cause". They are hurt considerably, but the immediate hurt is mostly inflicted upon them by their personal cicumstances, not by what is going on thousands of miles away from them. In short, they are vying for attention of the "natives". The natural thing to do would be to find some common ground, to find a good venue to sell themselves. Do you think they may be envious of the Palestinians' obvious success in this respect, of their better contacts to the "natives", of all the attention they get? It seems a common phenomenon that Arabs in the West pass themselves for Palestinians without being it, in fact.

What I am suggesting is that the situation is more complicated than both you and our American fellow posters would like to admit. On one hand, you have a conflict, an issue highlighted in the media, and with it in the public consciousness on a much larger scale than it is actually worth - for anyone other than the directly involved, which the average Swede, or Frenchman or anyone else isn't. The direct consequence is of course that attention is being drawn to a certain immigrant group, the Palestinians, who, as any immigrant in this situation, greatly profit from it. In the terms of the modern, media-infested society, they are stars.

Human beings acting like what they are, it is perfectly natural for such marginalized groups to try to "piggyback" on this popularity. They do not act because of what is happening in the Middle East. This theory rejects all the norms of human behaviour, which, in its healthier form, is usually guided by selfishness. They need decent educational chances, polite and uncorrupted officials in the respective authorities etc. much more than they need a Palestinian state. They act the way they do because the Middle East is popular.

What nice (progressive?) people like yourself don't like to admit is that by accepting the "Middle East" theory you are cheating them of of their chances. This is why the appeals to stop the violence usually come from the more intelligent, responsible members of the Muslim communities, but hardly, if ever, from the rest of the society. Because the situation suits everyone too well. Those in charge of issues like education etc. are not pressurized to do anything as long as it is another minority, "the Jews", who gets it, and the causes can be safely placed thousands of miles away, well beyond the responsibility of the locals. Progressives buy it because it creates a very satisfying situation: if the objects of their sympathy would lead better lives, the sympathy would be a less heroic act. Worse still, it might be less appreciated by its objects.

Why am I writing it? Because I am walking a very thin line here. I am not only a Jew, but an immigrant to the West too. On the streets of Stockholm I'd have easily passed for an Arab in my younger years. And I've had to learn quickly to send some of my self-declared friends to hell.

Oh, and I have followed an almost identical discussion on East German adolescent neonazis attackin true or presumed foreigners "because of what deceitful asylum-seekers are doing to our country" for years.

So, my dear, the ball is actually in your court and not in what you presume to be mine. Face the real issues, and you would do your friends a greater favour than accepting and promoting such fairy tales.

I hope that this is a sufficient explanation for the beginning. I'll be mostly "offline" the next days, no more long posts for some time, I'm afraid, we'll have to continue later.

[Northlander]

Sorry for being off-topic on this one but I have had so many arguements with Mediocrates on which country are the best to live in and not. Wether USA are more prosperous than others etc.
Harsh words sometimes but its an interesting subject.

Here are the latest report from the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP).
"The report, which for a second year in a row ranks Norway at the top of its Human Development Index (HDI), has been compiled annually since 1990 to explore major issues of global concern. The study looks beyond statistics as a measure of human progress and assesses such factors as human freedom, dignity and the role of people in development."

Norway is number one on the list followed by my own country Sweden and Canada in third place.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=4272&Cr=human&Cr1=development

"The Human Development Index measures a country's achievements in three aspects of human development: longevity, knowledge, and a decent standard of living. Longevity is measured by life expectancy at birth; knowledge is measured by a combination of the adult literacy rate and the combined gross primary, secondary, and tertiary enrolment ratio; and standard of living, as measured by GDP per capita (PPP US$). "

also this may be worth to think about:

"Is the HDI enough to measure a country's level of development?
Not at all. The concept of human development is much broader than can be captured in the HDI, or any other of the indices (GDI, GEM and HPI). The HDI, for example, does not reflect political participation or gender inequalities. The HPI-2, measuring human poverty in the richest countries, shows surprising results. The United States, with the second highest GDP per capita, also has the highest extent of deprivations. The indices can only offer a broad proxy on the issues of human development, gender, and human poverty. A fuller picture of a country's level of human development requires analysis of other human development indicators and information. "

Since Mediocrates seems to be so interested in economical development and trends I guess he could find this tool useful.
There all countries are listed and there are alot of stats in alot of fields.

http://www.undp.org/hdr2002/indicator/

Im not trying to prove anything exept maybe that Mediocrates is wrong in his views on the EU and europe as second level economies not at all comparable to USA.

Its some really interesting statistics to get from this if you are interested generally in politics and development in certain states, like Israel I would imagine. I found odd trends in my own country I must say. Also interesting stats like that the Infant mortality rate is higher in USA than in Israel and that twice as many israelis have mobile phones than americans. When it comes too Scientist & engineers in R&D (per million people) USA beats Norway just precisly and France by huge numbers. I also compared Israel to its neighbour Syria which was very interesting. Look at the Scientist & engineer fields on that one.

Sorry for being off-topic but it was more or less ended anyway it seems. Personally I got stuck for hours with this statistics, comparing different areas and states.
Hope some of you find it interesting.

[cerulean]

Thanks Northlander, I always like to see that UN report every year so thanks for the link.

As I have mentioned in this thread, I think Norway and Sweden have done many things very well and have much to be proud of.


Also interesting stats like that the Infant mortality rate is higher in USA than in Israel and that twice as many israelis have mobile phones than americans.

US statistics are probably due in part to some women who have poor nutrition and medical care and who abuse drugs during their pregnancies. However, one thing I have read is that US statistics include a number of very premature infants who would essentially be written off in Sweden (which has a very low infant mortality rate) and maybe not included in the statistics. (The US is known for taking heroic medical measures, an approach which many European countries disagree with.) I cannot say exactly what the situation is, but this sort of thing does make it difficult to cross-compare statistics.

One reason so many Israelis have mobile phones is because they want to be able to reach their family members instantly in the event of terrorist attack.

[Northlander]

I have not seen this report before. But I found it interesting.
Checked out countries randomly and sometimes one find surprising numbers.
I just took examples by phones and mortality rate but there are other interesting stats as well. You are maybe right about the US mortality rate. It is indeed hard to cross compare and maybe not always interesting.
Also I dont know how exact the numbers are. It must be hard getting them from some countries I imagine.But they might at least be a guideline. Like the number of scientists per million people. 1500 something in Israel and 29!!! in Syria. Even if not exact it tells alot.

[tirpitz]

there was also another incident in norway in the beginning of "defensive shield". a supermarket chain basically took all products from israel off the shelves in a boycott against the military operation

the media in norway, and in europe in general, have also been pro-palestinian. for example, whenever a suicide attack happens in israel, the headlines would read "suicide bomber strikes in israel". but when the israelis retaliate with a raid on gaza like they did, the headlines read "israel's murderous raid kills 10 children". this is actually from a newspaper in france

[Northlander]

I have not seen any norweigan newspaper use the word "murderous raid" I seriously doubt it. France I cant tell.
Scandinavian media is NOT pro-israeli. Far from.
Some papers can even be called israeli friendly. Most are neutral but it chages rapidly when opinions does. A headline would be something like "Israeli attack in Gaza, 10 dead" Then in the ingress maybe 10 children dead, 100 wounded. The most critical voices in media are from celebrities writing columns on occasions, the journalists are generally afraid to be seen as partial to write to much against either side.
"murderous" as headline are out of the question in Scandinavia. If you find any link on anyone I would very much like to see it.

The by far largest newspaper in Sweden has a Jew as permanent reporter in ME. That could hardly be seen as pro-palestine. He is increadibly neutral though.

Media in Scandinavia are largely owned by Jewish familys, Ive stated this before and do it again. Our countries are in many aspects very much palestine friendly traditionally I agree to that. But our media is mostly neutral.

Feel how you like about Norway but its media is fair on Israel IMHO.

[Mediocrates]

The only Norwegian press I've seen online spent most of the frontpage agonizing over a royal sunburn. You had to go pretty far in to find any real news which was sourced from AP, Reuters, etc. Seemed like straight up tabloid fare.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Tirpitz
there was also another incident in norway in the beginning of "defensive shield". a supermarket chain basically took all products from israel off the shelves in a boycott against the military operationAn ugly episode, this one. But again, it was one supermarket chain (which AFAIK retracted the decision within a few days). It is much more useful to name it wherever possible than philosophize about "Europeans".

Originally posted by Tirpitz
the media in norway, and in europe in general, have also been pro-palestinian. for example, whenever a suicide attack happens in israel, the headlines would read "suicide bomber strikes in israel". but when the israelis retaliate with a raid on gaza like they did, the headlines read "israel's murderous raid kills 10 children". this is actually from a newspaper in franceI think it is quite useful to avoid such generalizations. I read (and sometimes watch) the European media in German, French and English regularly, and while there is a definite pro-Palestinian slant on the whole, you cannot apply this to every last publication, TV report, comment etc. The French are IMO the most aggressive Israel-bashers now, many other media institutions attempt an "even-handed" approach, which doesn't always function well.

As stated many times before, one of the problems is not a preconceived position of some reporters in the conflict, although tzhis doubtlessly exists, but that Israelis are not making the reporters' work easy for them, while the Palestinians are true marvels in theri dealings with the media. In the age of "quick and dirty" journalism it is perfectly clear which side wins.

Please remember that there are several hundred million Europeans (depending on what exactly one defines as "Europe"), with different cultural traditions, political orientations, personal opinions etc. The media is but an imperfect mirror of this diversity.


Originally posted by Northlander
The by far largest newspaper in Sweden has a Jew as permanent reporter in ME. That could hardly be seen as pro-palestine. He is increadibly neutral though.

Media in Scandinavia are largely owned by Jewish familys, Ive stated this before and do it again. This kind of ad hominem argumentation is not only horribly tasteless, it is also incorrect. Jews, both inside and outside of Israel, as you may have noticed by now, have very different opinions not only on the current policies of the Israeli government, but sometimes also on Israel as a state in general.

[Vic]

Aug. 20, 2002
Sweden boycotts Israeli foodstuffs
By JUDY SIEGEL-ITZKOVICH

Sweden began a boycott of Israeli foodstuffs.

Avocado,oranges, and other foodstuffs have all disappeared from the shelves to be replaced by products from South Africa and other nearby countries.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1029765429172

[elke]

How is South Africa a nearby country for Sweden? :confused: Plate Tectonics gone whacko, and we haven't heard? ;)

[Vic]

Maybe the initiators were on LSD.

Long transportation routes are considered extremely detrimental to the environment, btw. :D Israel is/was regarded as a near-perfect source of "exotic" fruits for Europe in this respect.

[Vic]

I wonder whether the boycott is connected to this:
Aug. 21, 2002
Swedish TV apologizes for anti-Semitic slurs
By TOVAH LAZAROFF

Swedish Television has apologized for airing a show earlier this month in which Jews were accused of profiting from the Holocaust and were linked to the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center in New York. The controversy over the segment was reported in a number of Swedish papers.

"We do regret what was said," said Swedish Television's communications director, Helga Baagoe. "To say it was in bad taste is not strong enough."

Lisa Abramowicz, a board member of Stockholm's Jewish community, said that although the show Tredje Makten (Third Power), which airs on Wednesday nights at 10 p.m., is satirical, that segment crossed the line into anti-Semitism.

Abramowicz said statements made by the station to date do not show that it understands the full extent of the damage done by publicizing such untruthful and inciting statements. And there have been other anti-Semitic incidents in the Swedish media, Abramowicz said.

According to a transcript she provided, the segment narrated by a goldfish talks about the holocaust, "After all, this persecution did come up trumps it gave the Jews their own land..It isn't always a bad thing to be the victim of persecution."

The narrator continues, "And the German state and the Swiss banks have had to pay financial compensation amounting to hundreds of billions of dollars."

The narrator also said, "And let's face it: The Jews have never in their history been stronger than they are today. Incidentally, did you know that this fund was officially created in New York and was to be inaugurated in conjunction with the Jewish World Congress on the 11th of September 2001?" And then the screen showed a picture of the attack on the World Trade Center, Abramowicz said.

"It was shocking," she said. "There was no such fund created on September 11, 2001, and even if there were, what relevance would it have to the attack?"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1029841249701 Apology or not - once the dirt has been thrown...

[Philip]

Perhaps Norwegians are still peaved about Israel's violation of Norway's sovereignty when a Mossad hit team murdered an innocent Morrocan waiter in Lillehammer on July 21, 1973.

[Mediocrates]

mmmmmmm could be, maybe Norway isn't Sweden, who knows, they all look alike to me.

[minusthejihad]

Perhaps Norwegians are still peaved about Israel's violation of Norway's sovereignty when a Mossad hit team murdered an innocent Morrocan waiter in Lillehammer on July 21, 1973.

Would have loved to see it. Real espionage in real time with real Moroccan terrorists and righteous Jewish double-agents! Man, makes that prissy James Bond look like a little drab Scottish School girl. Yeah, and I'm sure the Mossad would send an agent out to Norway to take out a poor defenseless innocent waiter. Ha ha

[L@mplighterM]

In this particular situation an apology isn’t adequate. Criminal charges should be laid for this particular incident and the individuals involved should receive maximum sentences when they are found guilty