Ukranian Elections

[takeo]

Most newspapers are reporting that this is in relation to a long delayed Russian plan to sell advanced SRBM missile systems to Syria. The designation is SS-26 Iskander and the deal was held off until a successful test last summer.


The SS-26 Iskander is an export grade solid booster theater missile which has a 300km range and is nuclear capable. It is also one of the most accurate missiles in the Russian arsenal. The Russians have already sold them to Iran and intend to sell them to other middle east states as well:

http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/exports/general/expmsl.htm

ISKANDER-M/ISKANDER-E [SS-26 'Stone']
The Iskander-M/Iskander-E is a short range ballistic missile (SRBM) designed for tactical battlefield use. The Russian military version is known as the Iskander-M and the export version is known as the Iskander-E. Created by the Design Bureau of Machine Building (KBM) (http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/delivry/kbm.htm) in Kolomna, the Iskander-M/Iskander-E has its origins in the Oka-U project which was first started in 1984 as an upgrade of the 9K714 Oka [NATO designation SS-23 'Spider'], but was discontinued in accordance with INF Treaty (http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/treaties/infdescr.htm) requirements. Further development of the Iskander-M/Iskander-E began in the 1990s under the project name 'Tender' using the information and technology from the Oka-U design.[1] The Iskander-E was first displayed at the MAKS-99 air show in 1999 in Zhukovskiy, near Moscow.[2] On 3 October 2001 testing for the Iskander-E was reported completed, while testing of the domestic Iskander-M version was reported to be continuing.[3]

The Iskander-E is a solid-fueled, single-stage SRBM with a maximum range of 280km and a warhead payload of 480kg. It adheres to MTCR (http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/fulltext/regimes/mtcr/factsht.htm) restrictions that limit missiles to a range of 300km and a payload of 500kg.[4] The domestic Iskander-M version is expected to have a longer range of approximately 400km and a larger warhead up to 700kg.[1] The Iskander-E has a launch weight of 3,800kg and is deployed on a transporter erector launcher (TEL) vehicle that carries two missiles. The missiles can reportedly be launched within a minute of each other.[4]

Syria, Iran, and Jordan have shown open interest in purchasing the Iskander-E.[5,6,7] KBM director Nikolay Gushchin has stated that Russia will also seek to export the Iskander-E to Algeria, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Singapore, Vietnam, Malaysia, and South Korea.[8] The state tests are to be completed in which is planned for 2003, and following their completion the Iskander-M is expected to be deployed by the Russian military.[9]

Iskander-E Missile Characteristics [1,4] Length (m)7.3Diameter (m).92Range (km)280Launch Weight (kg)3,800Payload (kg)480Sources:
[1] Steve J. Zaloga, "Son of Scud," Journal of Military Ordnance, Vol. 10, No. 2, March 2000, p.28-30.
[2] Dmitriy Litovkin, "Kolomna is surprising the world. The time is ripe for a revolution in the market for technical systems," Krasnaya zvezda, 18 March 2000, p. 6; in "New Products at 'Mashinostroyeniya'," FBIS Document CEP20000317000289.
[3] ITAR-TASS, 3 October 2001; in "Russia tests export version of Iskander missile system," FBIS Document CEP20011003000179.
[4] Sergey Sokut, "Innovation: Iskander-E Attacks the Rivals: Russia's Leading Role in the Surface-to-Surface Class of Missile Weaponry Is Being Restored," Nezavisimoye voyennoye obozreniye, 1-7 October 1999, No. 38, p. 6; in "Tech Specs of Iskander-E Missile System," FBIS Document FTS19991007001708.
[5] Igor Korotchenko, "Russian Federation Will Strengthen Damascus' Military Potential. Over Next Few Years Russian Arms Shipments to Syria Will Rise to $1 Billion," Nezavisimaya gazeta, 24 May 2001, p. 6; in "Syrian Defense Minister To Discuss Military-Technical Cooperation in Moscow," FBIS Document CEP20010542000148.
[6] "Russian military say cooperation with Iran good for regional stability," ITAR-TASS, 5 October 2001; in "Russia: Military 'sources' say cooperation with Iran good for regional stability," FBIS Document CEP20011005000395.
[7] "Russia Has Little Hope For Jordan Purchase," Middle East Newsline, Vol. 3, No. 340, 29 August 2001.
[8] "Russia Wants To Sell Multi-Warhead Missiles To M.E.," Middle East Newsline, Vol. 2, No. 114, 22 March 2000.
[9] Agentstsvo voyennykh novostey, 22 May 2002; in "State tests of two missile systems to be completed in 2003," FBIS Document CEP20020522000087.{Entered 4/19/02 RG}


See also:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/ss-26.htm



Note that this missile system in particular prompted the US to propose scrapping the Global GPS system since it uses GPS to acquire its accuracy.

free trade, nothing illegal here, is it?

[takeo]

The question of whether Kuchma will receive any special immunity is also still up in the air, with some of Yushchenko's allies — such as Yulia Tymoshenko, who is tipped as the likely future prime minister — saying he must be held responsible "for everything that he did with the country."

Yulia is on the list of interpol, looks like Kuchma isn't the only one that must be held responsible


MOSCOW, December 8 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Military Prosecutor General's office has made a reply to an Interpol inquiry concerning Yulia Timoshenko, Alexander Savenkov, top military prosecutor, said to the media.

"The reply offers procedural information. It is first to get to Russia's Central Interpol Bureau, and reach the Interpol HQ in Lyons, France, within the day," he specified.

The Interpol inquiry concerns a criminal case on which a resolution was previously made to hold Yulia Timoshenko, prominent on the Ukrainian opposition, criminally liable.

"She was a commercial company proprietor when criminal proceedings were launched. Politics are not considered here, and did not come in previously," reassured Mr. Savenkov.

The proceedings were launched after Miss Timoshenko bribed five Defence Ministry officers to have building materials purchased eighty million US dollars above the actual price of the batch. There is irrefutable evidence of bribery, he pointed out.

Interpol placed Timoshenko's photo and concise information about her in the "wanted" list on its website promptly to remove the file. When a reporter asked the prosecutor about the matter, Mr. Savenkov said:

"You should address this question to Interpol. No one has stopped or even suspended the search for Timoshenko."

Russia previously filed lawsuits in Russian and Ukrainian courts against the United Ukrainian Power Grids amalgamation. The verdicts were in the plaintiff's favour, and their execution has been on for longer than two years now, added the prosecutor.

The files of another two persons will reach the court quite soon. The suspects were involved in bribery and building material sales at bloated prices.

Yulia Timoshenko's parliamentary immunity is no obstacle to her arrest. Her immunity can be quashed on valid reason, stressed the prosecutor. "Parliamentary immunity envisages its holder's criminal liability. This is in the Ukrainian law, too [as in the Russian]. The file contains sufficient evidence for law-abiding people to determine to get Timoshenko to the dock."

"Black PR!" Miss Timoshenko snapped at the news that she was on the Interpol "wanted" list.

"I've never been hiding. One can see me in Independence Square [public demonstration site in Kiev] from dawn to night. No one is out to arrest me!" she said to Ukraine's New Television Channel in a live cast last night.

"Sheer technology to kill a politician's reputation," she described reports of Interpol after her.

Yulia Timoshenko's computerised file is under consideration, the Interpol HQ said to Novosti last night in reply to a written inquiry in which we asked just why the suspect had promptly vanished from its web "wanted" list.

Information concerning search for particular persons is up to Interpol member countries that launch the search, and Interpol never comments such cases, the international police organisation press service explained in a written reply.

There is no way to detain Yulia Timoshenko in Ukraine, with her parliamentary immunity, Sergei Rudenko, chief of PR for the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's office, said to Novosti yesterday.
http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&do_alert=0&startrow=41&date=2004-12-08&msg_id=5186483

[Mediocrates]

free trade, nothing illegal here, is it?

Trumping up some kind of bizarre diplomatic crisis in order to justify something they already planned to do seems unnecessary, so mindlessly.........Russian. It plays to your innate Russian paranoia.

[Illuminatus]

The former Soviets (translated as "Socialist" in English), are suddenly backpedaling.

The Agence France Presse is reporting that:

[.. Ivanov categorically denied any plans for such a sale. ..]

The US has warned the former Soviets about selling missiles to Syria -- or it'll get hit with some serious sanctions.

If there's anything they learned during the 50 year old Cold-War, is that selling weapons to nations that sponsor terrorism comes with a price.


"We have no talks with Syria about such missiles," he told reporters here. "There are no negotiations under way with Syria."
"Suddenly" eh? Sounds like they've learned some lessons well.

US warns Russia on selling missiles to Syria (http://www.turkishpress.com/world/news.asp?id=050112235328.qbi3sj7q.xml)

[KettleWhistle]

The former Soviets (translated as "Socialist" in English)
Actually "Soviets" is translated as "ruling junta." The litteral meaning of the word is "advisory," as in "[ruling] advisory panel," a sort of a corporate board of managers to run the country.

[KettleWhistle]

hmm, I think in russia,... Yep, you think. Now after you move there, and live there for a few years, you could tell me about what their society is like and about antisemitism there. A good 50% of people there would openly state that it's too bad Hitler didn't finish all the Jews. But according to most of them they aren't anti-Semites because they have many Jewish friends. So I'm sure you'll find yourself at home there. I would sugget that you start with Birobijan. You can work potato fields there for a couple years. After that you can try St. Petersburg and Moskow where they regularly have neo-nazi demonstrations (http://www.pamyat.ru/stroy.jpg), and sell anti-Semitic and racist newspapers on every corner. The people who participate in these just love to engage in dialogs between Russians and Jews. You'll be in the right company.

[takeo]

Yep, you think. Now after you move there, and live there for a few years, you could tell me about what their society is like and about antisemitism there. A good 50% of people there would openly state that it's too bad Hitler didn't finish all the Jews. But according to most of them they aren't anti-Semites because they have many Jewish friends. So I'm sure you'll find yourself at home there. I would sugget that you start with Birobijan. You can work potato fields there for a couple years. After that you can try St. Petersburg and Moskow where they regularly have neo-nazi demonstrations (http://www.pamyat.ru/stroy.jpg), and sell anti-Semitic and racist newspapers on every corner. The people who participate in these just love to engage in dialogs between Russians and Jews. You'll be in the right company.

Altough Russia is certainly one of the most antisemitic countries in Europe, you are exaggerating, and it isn't because you lived there that your opinion is the only valid one. Where did you get that 50% of the people openly stated it's too bad Hitler didn't kill all the Jews? Sure, there is antisemitism and neo-nazi's (and others, even leftwing politicians) attacking jews and blaming them for everything, but still Jews are fairly well integrated in society and the majority of Russians doesn't have a problem with Jews. I would like to hear the opinion of other ex-soviet jews on this forum. btw which antisemitic and nazist newspapers, do you have names?
And I don't plan to live in Russia, and certainly not in freezing Birobidjan.

[KSO]

Altough Russia is certainly one of the most antisemitic countries in Europe, you are exaggerating, and it isn't because you lived there that your opinion is the only valid one. Where did you get that 50% of the people openly stated it's too bad Hitler didn't kill all the Jews? Sure, there is antisemitism and neo-nazi's (and others, even leftwing politicians) attacking jews and blaming them for everything, but still Jews are fairly well integrated in society and the majority of Russians doesn't have a problem with Jews. I would like to hear the opinion of other ex-soviet jews on this forum. btw which antisemitic and nazist newspapers, do you have names?
And I don't plan to live in Russia, and certainly not in freezing Birobidjan.From what I understand in moscow the neo-nazis are now almost non-existant, but in St. Petersburg they are becoming much stronger and louder, this year they killed an Azerbaijani girl as a response to the metro terrorist attack, and a few weeks ago a Rabby was murdered probably by Neo Nazis.

[KettleWhistle]

Where did you get that 50% of the people openly stated it's too bad Hitler didn't kill all the Jews? Sure, there is antisemitism and neo-nazi's (and others, even leftwing politicians) attacking jews and blaming them for everything, but still Jews are fairly well integrated in society and the majority of Russians doesn't have a problem with Jews.
From growing up there, and from being told that openly. When I was in school several teachers told me that, on a number of occasions during their class and in front off all the other students. Don't you think growing up there beats you travelling there once or twice and reading Le Merde? And who cares how well they are "integrated," whatever that might mean?


And I don't plan to live in Russia, and certainly not in freezing Birobidjan. Then don't act like you are some sort of expert, or even have a clue to what life and people's attitudes there are like.

[KettleWhistle]

From what I understand in moscow the neo-nazis are now almost non-existant, but in St. Petersburg they are becoming much stronger and louder, this year they killed an Azerbaijani girl as a response to the metro terrorist attack, and a few weeks ago a Rabby was murdered probably by Neo Nazis.
St. Petersburg has always been the hotbed of anti-Semitism. There are also plenty of them in Kaliningrad Region (Oblast,) and elsewhere in larger provincial cities. There are plenty of them in Moskow, as well, they are just more underground than elsewhere.

[KettleWhistle]

Putin is screwing over Russian seniors:

Retiree Protests Spread Across Russia
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer MOSCOW - A thousand retired people tried to block the road to a Moscow airport Saturday as 10,000 others jammed the avenues in President Vladimir Putin (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_protests/13996281/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vladimir%20Putin%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_protests/13996281/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Vladimir%20Putin))'s hometown of St. Petersburg to voice their anger over a law that stripped them of some key welfare benefits. It was the largest show of discontent since the Kremlin leader took power nearly five years ago.

In the former Leningrad some in the huge crowd called for Putin, the former KGB operative, to resign. The group in the Moscow gathered under red flags the color of the Soviet Union amid cries of "Down with Putin!"

"Putin's policy is that of a genocide," said Mikhail Kononov, an elderly St. Petersburg protester. "The government is waiting for all of us to die."

The protests were triggered by the Jan. 1 law that gives retirees, the disabled and war veterans cash stipends instead of free benefits such as public transportation and medicine. Protesters charge that the payments don't match the benefits they are meant to replace.

Continued at the link: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050115/ap_on_re_eu/russia_protests_3

[takeo]

From growing up there, and from being told that openly. When I was in school several teachers told me that, on a number of occasions during their class and in front off all the other students. Don't you think growing up there beats you travelling there once or twice and reading Le Merde? And who cares how well they are "integrated," whatever that might mean?

Then don't act like you are some sort of expert, or even have a clue to what life and people's attitudes there are like.

I've been there 9 times, but anyhow, since you migrated, how often did you return? You seem to know all kind of things about the Arab world, without ever visiting an Arab country.

[takeo]

Putin is screwing over Russian seniors:

Retiree Protests Spread Across Russia
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer MOSCOW - A thousand retired people tried to block the road to a Moscow airport Saturday as 10,000 others jammed the avenues in President Vladimir Putin (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_protests/13996281/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vladimir%20Putin%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_protests/13996281/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Vladimir%20Putin))'s hometown of St. Petersburg to voice their anger over a law that stripped them of some key welfare benefits. It was the largest show of discontent since the Kremlin leader took power nearly five years ago.

In the former Leningrad some in the huge crowd called for Putin, the former KGB operative, to resign. The group in the Moscow gathered under red flags the color of the Soviet Union amid cries of "Down with Putin!"

"Putin's policy is that of a genocide," said Mikhail Kononov, an elderly St. Petersburg protester. "The government is waiting for all of us to die."

The protests were triggered by the Jan. 1 law that gives retirees, the disabled and war veterans cash stipends instead of free benefits such as public transportation and medicine. Protesters charge that the payments don't match the benefits they are meant to replace.

Continued at the link: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050115/ap_on_re_eu/russia_protests_3

I think the communists might win next elections, anyway they're the only credible opposition to the regime.

[KettleWhistle]

I've been there 9 times, but anyhow, since you migrated, how often did you return? You seem to know all kind of things about the Arab world, without ever visiting an Arab country.
I have absolutely no intention on going there. There are plenty of places I'd rather go. And I don't claim to have the type of intricate knowledge of the Arab world that you claim of Russia.

[KSO]

I think the communists might win next elections, anyway they're the only credible opposition to the regime.No The communists lost all of their major electorates and on the last elections lost their major strongholds "The Red Belt" The Kremlin Right Wing Siloviki are here to stay for many years.

[takeo]

No The communists lost all of their major electorates and on the last elections lost their major strongholds "The Red Belt" The Kremlin Right Wing Siloviki are here to stay for many years.

Even according to the White House the last elections were all but honest and free, and the Kremlin succeeded in weaking the communists by accomodating and making a deal with a part of the party. Putin also adopted a lot of the communist program and symbols. tHat's why the communists lost many votes and are no longer the strongest party in Russia. But nevertheless they remain the only credible and the only represented opposition in parliament. The liberals and rightwing forces don't have a single seat in parliament, while the nationalists are on the payroll of the Kremlin.

[KSO]

Even according to the White House the last elections were all but honest and free, and the Kremlin succeeded in weaking the communists by accomodating and making a deal with a part of the party. Putin also adopted a lot of the communist program and symbols. tHat's why the communists lost many votes and are no longer the strongest party in Russia. But nevertheless they remain the only credible and the only represented opposition in parliament. The liberals and rightwing forces don't have a single seat in parliament, while the nationalists are on the payroll of the Kremlin.I think it's part two, the kremlin is using communist slogans, but the communists adopted way to many nationalist and fascist simbols and teaming up with fascists, and the public can obviously see that the current commies are a toy opposition party not using it's remaing powers to actualy fight for the people (and that is their job as the only opposition)

[Illuminatus]

Yulia Tymoshenko, was appointed Prime Minister today after parliament gave her the go-ahead to lead the Ukraine's new government.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7541771

MPs approved her nomination in a 373-0 vote, far more than the 226 votes she needed.

Tymoshenko, who is accused in Russia of corruption, smiled broadly after the vote, which sent the Kiev chamber into a burst of applause.
No news of Russia (a proud member of the Axis of Weasels) sending tanks to arrest her.

[takeo]

Yulia Tymoshenko, was appointed Prime Minister today after parliament gave her the go-ahead to lead the Ukraine's new government.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7541771

MPs approved her nomination in a 373-0 vote, far more than the 226 votes she needed.

Tymoshenko, who is accused in Russia of corruption, smiled broadly after the vote, which sent the Kiev chamber into a burst of applause.
No news of Russia (a proud member of the Axis of Weasels) sending tanks to arrest her.

Yulia Timoshenko, a Ukrainian nationalist of the worst kind. But whatever happens, without Russia Ukrain is lost. Iuchtchenko knows this as well that's why he paid his first visit as president in office to Moscow...
Iuchtchenko is also almost obsessed with membership of the EU, that's where he sees the future of Ukrain. A defeat of the "axis of weasels", I don't think so, his second official visit was to Brussels and Paris...

[Illuminatus]

"We've done it. This is victory, victory for the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian nation. It took us several hundred years to get here. We have had 14 years of independence, but now... we are free."

quotes for the Ukraine to remember forever (http://orangeukraine.squarespace.com/journal/2004/12/27/yushchenko-greets-the-press.html)

"The regime of Kuchma, Medvedchuk, and Yanukovych is history."

Time to get over you loss -- accept it, embrass your loss, be at peace with it, let's not bitter, let not your heart be troubled

........Be One With Your Loss......

"now we are free"

[takeo]

"We've done it. This is victory, victory for the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian nation. It took us several hundred years to get here. We have had 14 years of independence, but now... we are free."

quotes for the Ukraine to remember forever (http://orangeukraine.squarespace.com/journal/2004/12/27/yushchenko-greets-the-press.html)

"The regime of Kuchma, Medvedchuk, and Yanukovych is history."

Time to get over you loss -- accept it, embrass your loss, be at peace with it, let's not bitter, let not your heart be troubled

........Be One With Your Loss......

"now we are free"

It isn't a loss, on the contrary, Kutchma was supporting the "coalition of the willing" while Iuchtchenko wants to withdraw Ukrainian troops and wants closer relations with the European Union. France is very happy with the election of Iuchtchenko.

[Illuminatus]

Good to see losers finally come around.

Recall Post # 76 of this thread and, after the Ukrainian Supreme Court invalidaded the corrupt first elections.

One of those who finally came around gave the forum this prediction:

[..so let4s see what will happen next... Im very exited as well.. at least iushenko isn3t president as he claims he is... and if he becomes president trouble is ahead, ukrain can never economically survive without russia and the east will declare independance, they will become another georgia. perhaps ukrainian voters will be smart enough to avoid such a scenario.

He also claimed that:

[.. putin can decide about life or death of the ukrainian economy and he can even decide wether or not there will be war in ukrain. they should be very friendly to him. ..]

and defended the corrupt first elections by claiming that the observations of the OSCE could not be trusted:

[.. the osce is not an independant organisation which has been sufficiently proven in yugoslavia and kosovo especially, it is a tool for the EU. all other independant observers said the vote was fair and free. and mill some people really hate lukashenko especially the emerging middle class but among ordinary people and especially on the countryside he4s very popular. ..]


Suddenly: "France is very happy with the election of Iuchtchenko."

.... heh heh heh..... anyone who ever studied the biological behavior of a Weasel will not be surprised.

[takeo]

Ukraine president to visit Iran

Friday, February 25, 2005 - ©2005 IranMania.com

Related Pictures



Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko plans to visit Iran in the first half of this year, the presidency announced here Thursday after the ex-Soviet republic's new leader held talks with a visiting Iranian envoy.


Mehdi Safari, a special envoy of Iranian President Mohammad Khatami, discussed ways to expand economic cooperation between the two countries, said a statement issued by Yushchenko's office.

Among areas where joint projects are being studied are the construction of gas pipelines, the oil sector, shipbuilding, space technology and the aircraft industry, the statement said.

Yushchenko, a reformist liberal who took power earlier this year after his Western-backed "orange revolution" ousted the pro-Moscow regime, has not hesitated nonetheless to ruffle Washington's feathers.

Ukraine is to pull out its troops from Iraq, dealing a blow to the US-led coalition forces, and continue to develop ties with Iran, a country seen as a "rogue state" by the United States, which accuses it of developing nuclear weapons.

http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=29977&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs

[Illuminatus]

Yushchenko visits Iran - This is news? To whom?

meanwhile Jimmy Carter visits his old buddy Fidel in Cuba, in other words, who cares?

you're missing the fine print about IranMania.com

1) IranMania is one of the approved mouthpieces of the Islamic Revolution of Iran -- only a Saddamite would love.

A few weeks ago, a 16 year old girl was hung for supposedly having pre-marital sex. There is a question of her mental capacity (she may have stripped in front of the judge and yelled obscenities), she had no lawyer, and a farce of a trial.

She was hung not in the usual way, by being dropped through gallows, but by being slowly lifted up by a crane. Death would have occured by suffocation.

The man/boy involved (age not released) received 100 lashes.

The story was posted in IranMania (photo no longer availiable) with a stock photo of a 25 year old woman who was hung in the same manner for smoking marijuana in Tehran.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/home/column_article.asp?id=9972&cid=5&cname=Asia

2) The Ukraine announced almost two years ago that it was pulling it's troops out of Iraq in late 2005 and after the elections -- only a Saddamite would forget.

Here's some more bad news for our forum Ba'athists.

IRAQ: US forces hand over security to Iraqi army in capital

[..BAGHDAD, 2 March (IRIN) - The US army handed over authority in several areas of the capital, Baghdad, to the 40th Brigade of the Iraqi army last week, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials said.

The US military has already begun to transfer authority to Iraqi security forces in 14 of 18 provinces in the country. Coalition force officials told IRIN that they believed the Iraqi army had now reached advanced stages of training. ..]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/4b1e14c2de4d7da5b40123744d0d005f.htm

3) and last but not least in the fine print... only a Saddamite would never read

The Ukraine intends to join NATO - led by a US general and not those surrender monkeys that comprise the EUro Army. (http://www.eurocorps.org/site/index.php?language=en&content=home)

http://english.people.com.cn/200502/23/eng20050223_174425.html

Ukraine’s admission would bring Russia’s Black Sea naval base and much of the former Soviet armaments industry into the embrace of the NATO, and expand the alliance (the military wing that is - which thankfully, France is not a part of) Russia’s southwestern border.

[takeo]

Yushchenko visits Iran - This is news? To whom?

meanwhile Jimmy Carter visits his old buddy Fidel in Cuba, in other words, who cares?

you're missing the fine print about IranMania.com

1) IranMania is one of the approved mouthpieces of the Islamic Revolution of Iran -- only a Saddamite would love.

A few weeks ago, a 16 year old girl was hung for supposedly having pre-marital sex. There is a question of her mental capacity (she may have stripped in front of the judge and yelled obscenities), she had no lawyer, and a farce of a trial.

She was hung not in the usual way, by being dropped through gallows, but by being slowly lifted up by a crane. Death would have occured by suffocation.

The man/boy involved (age not released) received 100 lashes.

The story was posted in IranMania (photo no longer availiable) with a stock photo of a 25 year old woman who was hung in the same manner for smoking marijuana in Tehran.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/home/column_article.asp?id=9972&cid=5&cname=Asia

2) The Ukraine announced almost two years ago that it was pulling it's troops out of Iraq in late 2005 and after the elections -- only a Saddamite would forget.

Here's some more bad news for our forum Ba'athists.

IRAQ: US forces hand over security to Iraqi army in capital

[..BAGHDAD, 2 March (IRIN) - The US army handed over authority in several areas of the capital, Baghdad, to the 40th Brigade of the Iraqi army last week, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials said.

The US military has already begun to transfer authority to Iraqi security forces in 14 of 18 provinces in the country. Coalition force officials told IRIN that they believed the Iraqi army had now reached advanced stages of training. ..]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/4b1e14c2de4d7da5b40123744d0d005f.htm

3) and last but not least in the fine print... only a Saddamite would never read

The Ukraine intends to join NATO - led by a US general and not those surrender monkeys that comprise the EUro Army. (http://www.eurocorps.org/site/index.php?language=en&content=home)

http://english.people.com.cn/200502/23/eng20050223_174425.html

Ukraine’s admission would bring Russia’s Black Sea naval base and much of the former Soviet armaments industry into the embrace of the NATO, and expand the alliance (the military wing that is - which thankfully, France is not a part of) Russia’s southwestern border.

Yuchtchenko visits tehran and withdrows troops from Iraq, which means his elections certainly isn't a victory for the US as you represent it!
NATO is not the US, many nations who opposed the war in Iraq, not only France, are active members of NATO (headquarters are in belgium) And I don't think Ukrain will ever become member of NATO, Yuchtchenko knows he has to be very carefull if not the eastern side and the Krim (where the marines are based and an autonomous Russian republic which very much supported yanukovich) will secede.

Similar laws as in iran will now be voted in iraq, and they are already being applied informally, by the new islamist government.

And "you must be saddamite to love iranmania"? You clearly don't have a clue of the history of those two countries!

[Illuminatus]

elections certainly isn't a victory for the USno - not the US , it was a victory for the rule of law and,

the Ukrainain people

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4200475.stm

This is why the Left Lost the Cold-War:

[.. putin can decide about life or death of the ukrainian economy and he can even decide wether or not there will be war in ukrain. they should be very friendly to him. ..]
.

[takeo]

no - not the US , it was a victory for the rule of law and,

the Ukrainain people

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4200475.stm

This is why the Left Lost the Cold-War:

[.. putin can decide about life or death of the ukrainian economy and he can even decide wether or not there will be war in ukrain. they should be very friendly to him. ..]
.

The current situation in Iraq or guantanamo certainly isn't a victory for the rule of law on the contrary.
And yes it's still true, that's why Yuchtchenko paid his first visit to Moscow.

[Illuminatus]

[.. Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko addresses the U.S. Congress on Wednesday, to thank lawmakers and the American people for their support of democracy in Ukraine...]

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-04-05-voa73.cfm

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4410955.stm

glad we helped...... meanwhile

Bush, Ukraine Chief Launch 'Strategic Partnership' (http://www.blackanthem.com/World/2005040504.html)

But no doubt the Axis of Weasels are still upset (http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=10756966)

: )

[takeo]

[.. Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko addresses the U.S. Congress on Wednesday, to thank lawmakers and the American people for their support of democracy in Ukraine...]

http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-04-05-voa73.cfm

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4410955.stm

glad we helped...... meanwhile

Bush, Ukraine Chief Launch 'Strategic Partnership' (http://www.blackanthem.com/World/2005040504.html)

But no doubt the Axis of Weasels are still upset (http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=10756966)

: )

Yuchtchenko said exactly the same things in Paris and Brussels, and probably in Tehran as well (which he visited before he visited Washington) and he wants Ukrain to become part of the EU and European Council as soon as possible. (however I think he's not very realistic). He also said the same things in Moscow, promising a strategic partnership and continuing good relations with Moscow. He's a good salesman of his country, as was his predecessor, who also signed a "strategic alliance" with the US and NATO.

[Illuminatus]

Without protest and with impunity.

but no longer -


The Russian amphibious ship Nikolai Filchenkov has crossed the Ukrainian border near the town of Feodosiya in the Crimea without Ukraine’s permission and begun landing personnel and hardware at the naval training ground near Mount Opuk, Interfax news agency reports.

In total, 142 marines and 28 pieces of military hardware from the Black Sea Fleet’s 382nd Marine Battalion were landed on Ukrainian territory. Ukrainian authorities halted the operation and forced the ship to leave the country’s territorial waters.

heh heh heh........Ukraine Outraged After Russian Marines Make Landing in Crimea (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/25/marinesukraine.shtml)

my, how low the Axis of Weasels have fallen

[takeo]

Without protest and with impunity.

but no longer -

Ukraine Outraged After Russian Marines Make Landing in Crimea (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/25/marinesukraine.shtml)

my, how low the Axis of Weasels have fallen

In 1999 Russia and Ukrain were on the brink of war because of the Crimea, nothing we didn't know yet.

[Illuminatus]

Cheers and a standing ovation for President Viktor Yushchenko (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050406/ids_photos_ts/r3237593320.jpg)

in a joint session of congress today.... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050406/ids_photos_ts/r3212867836.jpg)

and all wanted to shake the hand of the guy in a orange tie..... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050406/480/dccd10904061650)

even Rep. Diana DeGette D-Colo. got carried away (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050406/480/dccd11604061947)

A look back at the long and winding road to freedom:

" Food is a weapon."
Maxim Litvinov - Soviet Commissar of Foreign Affairs

" As many as 7 million Ukrainians were starved in Soviet Socialist dictator Joseph Stalin's artificial, forced famine in Ukraine in 1932 and 1933.
Inky Mark, M. P. Dauphin - House of Commons 2 June 1998

" ...A famine that came about without drought and without war."
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

" Moscow employed the famine as a political weapon against the Ukrainians in the years 1932-1933. The famine was in its entirety artificially induced and organized."
F. M. Pigido - Soviet economist

-- gone --

" The child of a Ukrainian kulak deliberately starved to death by the Stalinist regime is worth no less than a Jewish child in the Warsaw ghetto starved to death by the Nazi regime."
Courtois, Stéphane. Le livre noir du communisme: Crimes, terreur et répression.

[KettleWhistle]

I wouldn't be quoting Arthur Koestler. He pretty much lost all credibility with me over his insistence that most Eurpean Jews are descendants of the Khazars--something that has been shown by many researchers to be false.

[Illuminatus]

I agree with you on this one KettleWhistle
-- I'm only quoting as he saw the Ukraine in the 1930's

Here's a couple more:

" I can't give an exact figure because no one was keeping count. All we knew was that people were dying in enormous numbers. "
Nikita Khrushchev, Khrushchev Remembers

" Anger lashed my mind as I drove back to the village. Butter sent abroad in the midst of the famine! In London, Berlin, Paris I could see ... people eating butter stamped with a Soviet trade mark. Driving through the fields, I did not hear the lovely Ukrainian songs so dear to my heart. These people have forgotten how to sing! I could only hear the groans of the dying, and the lip-smacking of the fat foreigners enjoying our butter..."
Victor Kravchenko - Former Soviet trade official and defector, I Chose Freedom

" Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles."
George Orwell - Commenting on the British attitude towards the Russians

[KettleWhistle]

No worries. But this famine, otherwise known as Holodomor, is very well remembered by the Ukrainians.

[takeo]

I agree with you on this one KettleWhistle
-- I'm only quoting as he saw the Ukraine in the 1930's

Here's a couple more:

" I can't give an exact figure because no one was keeping count. All we knew was that people were dying in enormous numbers. "
Nikita Khrushchev, Khrushchev Remembers

" Anger lashed my mind as I drove back to the village. Butter sent abroad in the midst of the famine! In London, Berlin, Paris I could see ... people eating butter stamped with a Soviet trade mark. Driving through the fields, I did not hear the lovely Ukrainian songs so dear to my heart. These people have forgotten how to sing! I could only hear the groans of the dying, and the lip-smacking of the fat foreigners enjoying our butter..."
Victor Kravchenko - Former Soviet trade official and defector, I Chose Freedom

" Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles."
George Orwell - Commenting on the British attitude towards the Russians

None of your sources are credible illumus. And yes some nasty things happened in the Ukrain, but what's your point, trying to prove stalin was bad, Kruschev, the supreme leader of the USSR, already did so decades ago...
It was he by the way who gave the entirely Russian-speaking Krim to his native Ukrain as a present (you see Ukrainians were so much oppressed in the Soviet-Union that they were forced to move to moscow, poor Breshnev and hrustchov both were Ukrainians exiled in the Kremlin...).

[KettleWhistle]

None of your sources are credible illumus. And yes some nasty things happened in the Ukrain, but what's your point, trying to prove stalin was bad, Kruschev, the supreme leader of the USSR, already did so decades ago...
It was he by the way who gave the entirely Russian-speaking Krim to his native Ukrain as a present (you see Ukrainians were so much oppressed in the Soviet-Union that they were forced to move to moscow, poor Breshnev and hrustchov both were Ukrainians exiled in the Kremlin...).

Brezhnev wasn't a Ukie, and Khrushev is hardly a representative of Ukranians. Him giving Crimea to Ukraine didn't really mean anything at the time. It was one country, and this so-called "gift" was nothing more than an administrative redistricting.

[Illuminatus]

[.. None of your sources are credible ..] ?

Quotes from those who saw the horror with thier own, eyes may not be credible one who wants to hide from the truth - but personal eyewitness accounts are certainly fine with me.

I gather our forum Saddamite needs a photo? (http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm)

[.. but what's your point ..] ?

The point is the historic and catastrophic failure of Socialist/Communist ideology, and that the Losing Left needs reminding every so often. Of course, for Saddamites who inherently opposed the Orange Revolution (see post # 272) - catastrophic failures is inherently normal : )

The point is that the Ukraine went from this, (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM3.S.FACE.OF.FAM.HTM)

to this, (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/images/20050406_v040605ukraine-515h.html) in just 75 years.

-- Freedom and Democracy prevailed
-- The Left, Lost yet another one