Ukranian Elections

[Mil]

Guys,

All of you probably see the events currently taking place in Ukraine. Hopefully, if all goes well, the situation around the election results and the governing party will be resolved and if not - there definetly will be a civil war.

By some estimates there are over 200,000 Jews currently residing in Ukraine and if a war of any kind will flame up the Jews will be one of the first victims - no matter from which side. I am very nervous - very very nervous.

[takeo]

Calm down, tomorrow the high court will make a decision about the complaints of the opposition candidate. Perhaps there'll be a political settlement or compromise. Neither side seems to be antisemitic, so I don't see any danger for the Jewish population of Ukraine.
Ukrain isn't Iraq, noone wants war or civil war to erupt.

[Semsem]

Takeo you are incorrect. The nationalistic party that won in the western region includes some antisemites. That's why many Jews voted for the existing pro Russian block. A large part of Western Ukraine was Austria until 1918. That's where my grandfather was from (Czernovitz). They voted for the nationalists.

Good chance Ukraine will break into 2 States.

[Semsem]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/507263.html

Here is an article in Haaretz about the elections. Apparently both leaders are good to the Jews.

[Illuminatus]

Given Europe's continuous habit of mutual slaughter throughout
its history and,

the hundreds of thousands killed just in the last decade in
Bosia/Croatia/Serbia/Kosovo -- I believe your concern is
well founded.

A court decision may not be the end. Whichever side of Dnieper
River loses the court decision -- it will be devastating.

I'm not so sure they will just shrug their shoulders, give up,
go home and go back to work. Something has been gravely amiss
in the Ukraine and a shameful past is just now catching up.

But I think things will work out just fine.

There is some good news. My 1st reason for optimism?

The night before the Thanskgiving holiday (Wednesday), there were a
couple of news reports that noted that certain rapid reaction units
in Britain and the US (the 82nd Airborne out of Ft. Bragg, North
Carolina which has a brigade in Italy) went on a "deployment alert".
Nothing really happened, but maybe this was the reason:

'No Russian troops in Kyiv (Kiev) - Ivanov'

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=10724299

[.. MOSCOW. Nov 25 (Interfax) - There are no Russian army
commando units in Kyiv, said Russian Defense Minister Sergei
Ivanov. ..]

Of course, we do trust Sergei Ivanov.

2nd) If things really unravel, Europe is saved! The Axis of Weasels
led by France (along with Russia) will come to the rescue.

If you historians will recall, on 12 June 1812, without war being
declared, the French forces (over 600,000 men and 1,420 artillery
pieces) crossed the River Nemen and invaded the Russian territory.

Napolean faced a Russian force of 220–240,000 soldiers with 942 guns.

The Russians were divided into three main armies. The first, covering
the route to St Petersburg, was led by General Mikhail Barclay de
Tolly, the Minister of War. The second, cutting off the way to Moscow,
was led by General Piotr Bagration. The third, southern, army was
in the Ukraine. It was led by General Alexander Tormasov.

The French, "chased away each army", and had Russia all to themselves.

Why do I mention 1812? Well this past weekend.........

'Sarkozy (France's finance minister) promises truth and glory'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5073523-110633,00.html

[..Hailed by 40,000 delirious supporters, France's most popular
politician yesterday took triumphant control of its ruling centre-right
party, promising to restore battered Gallic pride with a mix of honesty,
energy and new ideas.

"France is not nostalgia, a past that we venerate the better to
forget the disappointments of a less glorious future," Nicolas
Sarkozy told flag-waving delegates to the UMP party's congress
in a cavernous exhibition centre in this northern Paris suburb. ..]

(I like this guy ...... a "glorious future"!) He's the one who most
probably will replace Chirac.

and like Napoleon of old - he's also the one to lead the Axis of Weasels
into the Ukraine, bring peace to all, and save Europe.

btw.....on 2 September 1812, the French army entered Moscow and a very
pleasant, light snow fell.

3rd reason for optimism. Yesterday, Dr. Condi Rice explained the US
position (sounds like C. Powell may have spoken "out of line") - this
(The Ukraine) is strictly a EU/Russia internal problem - just like
Bosnia.

Thus,

[..It is estimated that up to one-half of the 71,000 troops (US)
currently in Germany could be sent home. ..]

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1299315,00.html

Not "could be" -- the withdrawal is happening right now, on schedule
and in earnest (and I wish we could hurry!).

[Mediocrates]

Every few decades like clockwork some professional eurocrats decides it's time to topple some such government or another or simply invade one another. This typically opens the door for a new era in slaughter.

[Mil]

Neither Europe or US will use any of their military forces to enter Ukraine. That will be a direct confrontation call to Russia and nobody wants to see the End of the World.

Russia will not put military force in Ukraine - doing that will spark a civil war of unimaginable proportions. The opposition is blowing too much water and is outright lying about Russian Spetznaz being anywhere in Ukraine.

The main reason behind the current situation are social economic and ethnic divides among various regions of Ukraine. My fear is that when it will come to settling scores the Jews have always ended up in the middle. That's exactly what happened during the Russian Civil War and WWII in Ukraine.

[Illuminatus]

1) Chirac named Agriculture Minister Herve Gaymard as his third finance
chief this year. He's got his work cut out for him -- he's got an economy
plagued by unemployment of almost 10 percent. Of course he's not banking
on our "strong dollar" policy.... : )

One immediate problem he faces is the state-owned EDF, who oppose the
government's share sale plan because of concern over job losses. Strikes
this year have cut output by as much as 15 percent of France's capacity,
disrupting domestic supplies and exports to neighboring countries.

btw, Herve Gaymard is also a proud champion of the EuroCorps (the EU Army).

http://www.eurocorps.org/site/index.php?language=en&content=home

I understand their headquarters in Strasbourg is "a little hectic"
lately? : ) If they need any help, I think 2 supply ships and
some engineers should fulfill our "obligations".

2) [..Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych said Monday he would
support another presidential vote if allegations of fraud in last week's
election are proven, while the Supreme Court debated an opposition appeal
challenging the validity of the results. ..]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041129/D86LJPVO0.html

That's a big "if" on what he'll accept as proof.

3) This is no way to treat a country that still has 14 tank divisions.

[..Ukraine’s foreign policy body will announce Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov
and political strategist Gleb Pavlovsky personae non gratae for their
support of pro-Moscow presidential candidate, Prime Minister Viktor
Yanukovich...]

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/11/29/glebandyuri.shtml

The Ukraine may not like the Russkies, but they better get used to a cold
winter with no gas from Russia like the Russians did before.
------

● [..My fear is that when it will come to settling scores
the Jews have always ended up in the middle. ..]

Come now Mil -- According to Chirac, the Europeans have evolved.
That's "Old Europe" mentality. Times have changed. Show some faith
and have a little trust with the "New Europe".

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Illuminatus]Given Europe's continuous habit of mutual slaughter throughout
its history and,
.'Sarkozy (France's finance minister) promises truth and glory'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5073523-110633,00.html
[..Hailed by 40,000 delirious supporters, France's most popular
politician yesterday took triumphant control of its ruling centre-right
party, promising to restore battered Gallic pride with a mix of honesty,
energy and new ideas.
"France is not nostalgia, a past that we venerate the better to
forget the disappointments of a less glorious future," Nicolas
Sarkozy told flag-waving delegates to the UMP party's congress
in a cavernous exhibition centre in this northern Paris suburb. ..]
(I like this guy ...... a "glorious future"!) He's the one who most
probably will replace Chirac.
__________________________________________________ ________
The only main problem Sarkozy ,can look in the face ,It's our immense and abyssal natonal debt ,if he approaches too close he can fall in.

It's certain that he will be a candidate for the next presidential election of 2007.

It's certain in no way that his popularity will as well important as the media claim it !

It's not excluded that Beautiful Chirac has no vague desire to prolong is career.

He was elected with a 83% score , theses votes representing all the voters who did not to have Le Pen as fascist president.

As for thr popularirty and for the success of Sarkozy ,it's about an advertising beating ,to make forget to the voters ,the real problem.

By analyzing the work made by Sarkozy ,the profitable one ,consists of the installation of automatic radars with zero tolerance to fight against "the road crime" ,who are very impopular ,but will be make a profit of euros 1.5 billion. in the boxes of the state ,which really needs it.

MYL
The Ukrainians who are anti-Semites today ,I do not dare to say all ,cannot absolutely behave as it anything had not taken place 65 years ago,they were the cruelest and very happy to help death ss squadrons .
The biggest part of my family disapeared in this time.
Today ,a similar attitude ,would provoke a such reaction ,that is not even thinkable , the excesses of 1940 , are as absolute prohibition from the past.
No Ukrainian will dare to exercice or think about it,to exercice any negative attitude ,towards the Jews living in Ukraine.

[Illuminatus]

● goliath writes:

[.. Sarkozy ,it's about an advertising beating ,to make forget to
the voters ,the real problem ..]

Have you ever heard of a nice, respectable, (much beloved by the
Democrats) gentleman named Karl Rove?

..."to make forget to the voters ,the real problem"... is an art that requires
an "architect".

Perhaps Monsieur Sarkozy should hire Rove for his 2007 campaign.

.......as for those radars - they can't be accurate.

Not according to Eric Clapton who claims he was driving his Porche 911
through the Burgundy region at a "very leisurely speed". I gather his $900
fine was personal contribution to the "profit of euros 1.5 billion"?

You know, if only Saddam Hussein was still in power and still sending money,
they wouldn't need these “radars” : )

[Mediocrates]

What does this have to do with anything?

[Illuminatus]

Many believe that if the Orange Revolution takes control of the
government, Ukraine’s so-called “oligarchs” – who backed the
candidacy of PM Yanukovych - could be tried for stealing state
property, election fraud, and other crimes.

This group includes Presidential Administration head Viktor Medvedchuk,
President Leonid Kuchma’s son-in-law Viktor Pinchuk, and Donetsk-based
business mogul Rinat Akhmetov, supposedly the Ukraine’s richest man.

Financial Times: 'Industrialist banks on Yanukovich win' (http://news.ft.com/cms/s/2ec0706e-422e-11d9-8e3c-00000e2511c8.html)

[KettleWhistle]

The main reason behind the current situation are social economic and ethnic divides among various regions of Ukraine. My fear is that when it will come to settling scores the Jews have always ended up in the middle. That's exactly what happened during the Russian Civil War and WWII in Ukraine.
That's very unlikely, but in case there will be a threat to the Jewish community, local Israeli representatives will evacuate the Jewish population in a matter of days. Also, nowdays, the Jews will actually fight back, if they'll have to.

[Mil]

Posted by KettleWhistle:


That's very unlikely, but in case there will be a threat to the Jewish community, local Israeli representatives will evacuate the Jewish population in a matter of days.

I doubt it.


Also, nowdays, the Jews will actually fight back, if they'll have to.

I am pretty sure it will not come to that.

[Mediocrates]

Worst case scenario, the current president says no more elections, declares victory and arrests a few political opponents, puts the army on 'alert'. Then what? I suspect very little would come of it and the Ukraine would remain more or less at the fringes of modern politics; not quite a brutal repressive developing nation but not an emerging ex Soviet bloc state either. Turkmenistan-West?

[KettleWhistle]

That's very unlikely, but in case there will be a threat to the Jewish community, local Israeli representatives will evacuate the Jewish population in a matter of days.

I doubt it.
About 10-12 years ago there was a similar conflict in Moldova, that effectively divided that country in half. There was a period of uncertainty, and I know for a fact that the Israelis had specific plans for evacuation of Jews to Israel in a matter of 2-3 days if the need would arrise. I used to know people who were involved in that planning, and they were ready to trasport some 80,000 people to Israel if they had to. I don't see why it would be any different in Ukraine.

[Mediocrates]

200,000 more people in Yesha. A paramount idea.

[Illuminatus]

Her name is Yuliya Timoshenko, the Ukrainian "Joan of Arc".

http://www.tymoshenko.com.ua/eng/welcome/

Ms Timoshenko, has repeatedly called for the people to seize power by
blockading state buildings and taking over airports, railways and roads.

Everyday - just about twice a day she gives rousing speeches. Just imagine,
live Ukranian TV - a slim figure, she parts the police/troops as she walks up
to the square. No general wants to put a set a handcuff on her. Peasant
braids, telegenic -- she's pretty much inflamed and sustained the
demonstrations in support of the opposition.

I'd say she'd be the first to be arrested, then “burned to a stake”.
(then hope everyone forgets and there'll be no intl sanctions)

● KettleWhistle - that'll take some serious planning. The Ukrainian
air force flies both the Su-27 and those nasty Mig-29's.

[Mil]

I listened to Timoshenko on Ukranian radio driving to work in the morning. I think she used to be a "Pioner-vozitii" in her younger days. So much passion!!!!!

[KettleWhistle]

I'd say she'd be the first to be arrested, then “burned to a stake”.
(then hope everyone forgets and there'll be no intl sanctions)It is very unlikely that she'd be arrested. If Yanukovych's people will decide to get rid of her, they'll assasinate her. It been happenning in Russia to liberal politicians, with at least three high profile members of Duma (Parliament) having been shot over the past decade. Yanukovych is a former fellon who done hard time for violent crimes, including a rape (this one was wiped out from his record,) and majority of his people are hardcore violent criminals. A Ukranian coworker of mine has some relatives in Donetsk, Yanukovych's power base, and according to his friends and relatives, it was these people who were running the elections there, sorting through the ballots, and in many cases just taking the ballots from the voters and filling them out themselves. So I wouldn't be surprised if there will be some pretty bloody retributions against Yanukovych's political oponents after the whole election mess is settled, and things quite down.



● KettleWhistle - that'll take some serious planning. The Ukrainian
air force flies both the Su-27 and those nasty Mig-29's.
It is serious planning, but most likely they wouldn't engage the millitary. It would be a matter of flying lightly armed personnel there to provide security, gathering people up in airports, and flying them out, most likely in hi-capacity millitary cargo planes. The people involved in this planning should also have a database of Jewish citizens, since these lists can be easily aquired from the government census and residency registration databases.

[takeo]

Given Europe's continuous habit of mutual slaughter throughout
its history and,

the hundreds of thousands killed just in the last decade in
Bosia/Croatia/Serbia/Kosovo -- I believe your concern is
well founded.

A court decision may not be the end. Whichever side of Dnieper
River loses the court decision -- it will be devastating.

I'm not so sure they will just shrug their shoulders, give up,
go home and go back to work. Something has been gravely amiss
in the Ukraine and a shameful past is just now catching up.

But I think things will work out just fine.

There is some good news. My 1st reason for optimism?

The night before the Thanskgiving holiday (Wednesday), there were a
couple of news reports that noted that certain rapid reaction units
in Britain and the US (the 82nd Airborne out of Ft. Bragg, North
Carolina which has a brigade in Italy) went on a "deployment alert".
Nothing really happened, but maybe this was the reason:

'No Russian troops in Kyiv (Kiev) - Ivanov'

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=10724299

[.. MOSCOW. Nov 25 (Interfax) - There are no Russian army
commando units in Kyiv, said Russian Defense Minister Sergei
Ivanov. ..]

Of course, we do trust Sergei Ivanov.

2nd) If things really unravel, Europe is saved! The Axis of Weasels
led by France (along with Russia) will come to the rescue.

If you historians will recall, on 12 June 1812, without war being
declared, the French forces (over 600,000 men and 1,420 artillery
pieces) crossed the River Nemen and invaded the Russian territory.

Napolean faced a Russian force of 220–240,000 soldiers with 942 guns.

The Russians were divided into three main armies. The first, covering
the route to St Petersburg, was led by General Mikhail Barclay de
Tolly, the Minister of War. The second, cutting off the way to Moscow,
was led by General Piotr Bagration. The third, southern, army was
in the Ukraine. It was led by General Alexander Tormasov.

The French, "chased away each army", and had Russia all to themselves.

Why do I mention 1812? Well this past weekend.........

'Sarkozy (France's finance minister) promises truth and glory'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5073523-110633,00.html

[..Hailed by 40,000 delirious supporters, France's most popular
politician yesterday took triumphant control of its ruling centre-right
party, promising to restore battered Gallic pride with a mix of honesty,
energy and new ideas.

"France is not nostalgia, a past that we venerate the better to
forget the disappointments of a less glorious future," Nicolas
Sarkozy told flag-waving delegates to the UMP party's congress
in a cavernous exhibition centre in this northern Paris suburb. ..]

(I like this guy ...... a "glorious future"!) He's the one who most
probably will replace Chirac.

and like Napoleon of old - he's also the one to lead the Axis of Weasels
into the Ukraine, bring peace to all, and save Europe.

btw.....on 2 September 1812, the French army entered Moscow and a very
pleasant, light snow fell.

3rd reason for optimism. Yesterday, Dr. Condi Rice explained the US
position (sounds like C. Powell may have spoken "out of line") - this
(The Ukraine) is strictly a EU/Russia internal problem - just like
Bosnia.

Thus,

[..It is estimated that up to one-half of the 71,000 troops (US)
currently in Germany could be sent home. ..]

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1299315,00.html

Not "could be" -- the withdrawal is happening right now, on schedule
and in earnest (and I wish we could hurry!).

so whatare you trying to proove? I don4t know how the situation will evolve anyhow I4m sure France won4t interphere, noone will in the West. Russia will, but not militarily. there is clearly a division between the east and west of ukrain, for this reason alone I think there should be a coalition or the regime should coninue to rule, but improve its economic and corruption record.

[takeo]

About 10-12 years ago there was a similar conflict in Moldova, that effectively divided that country in half. There was a period of uncertainty, and I know for a fact that the Israelis had specific plans for evacuation of Jews to Israel in a matter of 2-3 days if the need would arrise. I used to know people who were involved in that planning, and they were ready to trasport some 80,000 people to Israel if they had to. I don't see why it would be any different in Ukraine.

There is still a problem and division in Moldova, but Jews have never been targetted.

[takeo]

Worst case scenario, the current president says no more elections, declares victory and arrests a few political opponents, puts the army on 'alert'. Then what? I suspect very little would come of it and the Ukraine would remain more or less at the fringes of modern politics; not quite a brutal repressive developing nation but not an emerging ex Soviet bloc state either. Turkmenistan-West?

Or rather Russia-West or Belarus-south...

I don4t like the current regime the probem is that the opposition is filled with radical nationalists who will cause trouble zith the easternpopulations and with russia, and both will be disasterous for ukrain. perhaps what ukrain needs is another putin.

[MGB8]

Here I am alligned with Europe - in that Europe fears Putin and in this case will support democracy and the majority of the nation (as opposed to Iraq or Iran), but much of this is also because they want to extend their sphere of Influence into the Ukraine. That's a small price to pay to keep Putin's neo-Soviet ambitions in check.

[KettleWhistle]

There is still a problem and division in Moldova, but Jews have never been targetted.
Among people who work for Jewish organizations in Former Soviet Union, Moldova is considered a model of a successful collaboration between Israel and international Jewish organizations working on behalf of Israel, and the Diaspora community. Before the start of the Soviet aliah, Jews constituted about 12% of the population in Moldova. Now it is about 2%. At the same time, presence of a number of Jewish and Israeli organizations contributed to a revival of the Jewish community, and a significant decrease in anti-Semitism. Kishinev, the capital of Moldova, is one of the very few major FSU cities were Jews are not afraid, and where you can routinely see rabbis and orthodox Jews walk around the city without hiding their kippas or the traditional rabbinical attire. It was also one of the first places in FSU where Jewish schools were established on a collaborative basis between the local government and the Jewish organizations. Essentially, Israel's involvement in the area benefitted everybody--it got the Jewish community out of the closet, thus reducing anti-Semitism, it stimulated massive aliah (more than 100,000 people), and Jewish schools benefitted the Moldovan government because they were funded mostly by Jewish/Israeli organizations, and local government actually spent less on educating each student than it would if these students studied in regular secondary schools. Additionally, the Moldovan Jewish community is a Diaspora community with one of the closest relationship to the motherland.

That said, Moldova is a poor country with an ongoing internal conflict. As good as things may go for the Jewish community, there are no guarantees that the situation may change, and their leaders and Israeli officials there realize that. So they do have a very comprehensive contigency plan. I am sure that Ukranian Jewish community and the Israeli officials there have similar plans in case the country becomes unstable.

[Illuminatus]

● KettleWhistle:

A quiet assassination of Yuliya Timoshenko instead of a public
arrest? I should have known - Russia is a founding member of
the Axis of Weasels aren't they.

As for all that planning, I never knew Israel ever contemplated
these measures to save a threatened European population -- given
Europe's inherent nature of slaughtering each other, maybe these
evacuations should be a combined UN mission?

● takeo writes:

[.. I think there should be a coalition or the regime should continue
to rule ..]

Once again "Old Europe" compromise and surrender has missed. Unlike
New Europe that demands that the will of the people triumph.
Meaning: no "coalitions" or the continuation of some "regime".

Lech Walesa, the Nobel laureate and founder of the Solidarity movement
in Poland – as a member of the New Europe, compromises of certain values
is not an option. He said last week:

[..All of my life I have been fighting for these ideals..]
(the will of the people) and he urged Ukrainians not to relent.

[..You can rely on the support of Poland and Walesa.]

Here's an interesting analysis by Judy Dempsey at the International
Herald Tribune regarding Ukraine and it's relationship with Old Europe.

'Ukraine resentments sank EU's mediation' (http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/29/news/allies.html) Of course it did.

● The following shouldn't come as a surprise.......

Daily Kommersant reports Russian troops in Ukraine (http://www.kyivpost.com/top/21955/)

[..The Russian daily Kommersant published a report on Nov. 29 stating
that up to 800 Russian special forces, or spetsnaz, began arriving in
Kyiv early on the morning of Nov. 23 and changed into Ukrainian
uniforms at a Ukrainian military base just outside the capital. ..]

The source stated that each plane, after landing, was then loaded with
sensitive documents from the Presidential Administration, the SBU
and other departments before taking off again, bound for Moscow.

So, if they are taking the secret documents, does that mean they
expect to lose control of Ukraine soon? Yes.

● Of course, it should be noted that any action that may lead to a
breakup will come with a price.

(Ukrainian) Army To Defend Ukraine’s Territorial Integrity (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=523653&C=landwar)

[.. The army will defend the "territorial integrity of Ukraine,"
Defense Minister Oleksandr Kuzmuk warned Nov. 29, denouncing
appeals for autonomy amid the country’s political crisis.

"No matter what the circumstances, the Ukrainian armed forces
will guarantee the stability, sovereignty and territorial
integrity of Ukraine," Kuzmuk said in a statement. ..]

[Mil]

Posted by KettleWhistle:


Among people who work for Jewish organizations in Former Soviet Union, Moldova is considered a model of a successful collaboration between Israel and international Jewish organizations working on behalf of Israel, and the Diaspora community. Before the start of the Soviet aliah, Jews constituted about 12% of the population in Moldova. Now it is about 2%. At the same time, presence of a number of Jewish and Israeli organizations contributed to a revival of the Jewish community, and a significant decrease in anti-Semitism. Kishinev, the capital of Moldova, is one of the very few major FSU cities were Jews are not afraid, and where you can routinely see rabbis and orthodox Jews walk around the city without hiding their kippas or the traditional rabbinical attire. It was also one of the first places in FSU where Jewish schools were established on a collaborative basis between the local government and the Jewish organizations. Essentially, Israel's involvement in the area benefitted everybody--it got the Jewish community out of the closet, thus reducing anti-Semitism, it stimulated massive aliah (more than 100,000 people), and Jewish schools benefitted the Moldovan government because they were funded mostly by Jewish/Israeli organizations, and local government actually spent less on educating each student than it would if these students studied in regular secondary schools. Additionally, the Moldovan Jewish community is a Diaspora community with one of the closest relationship to the motherland.

That said, Moldova is a poor country with an ongoing internal conflict. As good as things may go for the Jewish community, there are no guarantees that the situation may change, and their leaders and Israeli officials there realize that. So they do have a very comprehensive contigency plan. I am sure that Ukranian Jewish community and the Israeli officials there have similar plans in case the country becomes unstable.


I feel someone is from Moldova. My wife is from Moldova - Kishnev.


On the matter of Ukranian elections. Thy God I don't live in Ukraine, or Russia or Belarus or anywhere even close to FSU. I thank my parents everyday that they took me out of that hell-hole they used to call USSR.

[takeo]

Among people who work for Jewish organizations in Former Soviet Union, Moldova is considered a model of a successful collaboration between Israel and international Jewish organizations working on behalf of Israel, and the Diaspora community. Before the start of the Soviet aliah, Jews constituted about 12% of the population in Moldova. Now it is about 2%. At the same time, presence of a number of Jewish and Israeli organizations contributed to a revival of the Jewish community, and a significant decrease in anti-Semitism. Kishinev, the capital of Moldova, is one of the very few major FSU cities were Jews are not afraid, and where you can routinely see rabbis and orthodox Jews walk around the city without hiding their kippas or the traditional rabbinical attire. It was also one of the first places in FSU where Jewish schools were established on a collaborative basis between the local government and the Jewish organizations. Essentially, Israel's involvement in the area benefitted everybody--it got the Jewish community out of the closet, thus reducing anti-Semitism, it stimulated massive aliah (more than 100,000 people), and Jewish schools benefitted the Moldovan government because they were funded mostly by Jewish/Israeli organizations, and local government actually spent less on educating each student than it would if these students studied in regular secondary schools. Additionally, the Moldovan Jewish community is a Diaspora community with one of the closest relationship to the motherland.

That said, Moldova is a poor country with an ongoing internal conflict. As good as things may go for the Jewish community, there are no guarantees that the situation may change, and their leaders and Israeli officials there realize that. So they do have a very comprehensive contigency plan. I am sure that Ukranian Jewish community and the Israeli officials there have similar plans in case the country becomes unstable.

Moldova is currently ruled by the Communist Party, who gained the elections in 2001 during democratic elections, recognised by the OSCE. The Eastern part is ruled by communist old-style Russians. In neither side there have been complqints about anti-semitism. Since 2001 the government made substantial efforts to reduce widespread poverty (it was the poorest european nation) and corruption, and their efforts prooved to be succesfull. The etnic division of the country is still going on, but tensions have eased a bit since 2001. The Moldovan government indeed cooperates with Israel in return for financial contributions.

[takeo]

● KettleWhistle:

A quiet assassination of Yuliya Timoshenko instead of a public
arrest? I should have known - Russia is a founding member of
the Axis of Weasels aren't they.

As for all that planning, I never knew Israel ever contemplated
these measures to save a threatened European population -- given
Europe's inherent nature of slaughtering each other, maybe these
evacuations should be a combined UN mission?

● takeo writes:

[.. I think there should be a coalition or the regime should continue
to rule ..]

Once again "Old Europe" compromise and surrender has missed. Unlike
New Europe that demands that the will of the people triumph.
Meaning: no "coalitions" or the continuation of some "regime".

Lech Walesa, the Nobel laureate and founder of the Solidarity movement
in Poland – as a member of the New Europe, compromises of certain values
is not an option. He said last week:

[..All of my life I have been fighting for these ideals..]
(the will of the people) and he urged Ukrainians not to relent.

[..You can rely on the support of Poland and Walesa.]

Here's an interesting analysis by Judy Dempsey at the International
Herald Tribune regarding Ukraine and it's relationship with Old Europe.

'Ukraine resentments sank EU's mediation' (http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/29/news/allies.html) Of course it did.

● The following shouldn't come as a surprise.......

Daily Kommersant reports Russian troops in Ukraine (http://www.kyivpost.com/top/21955/)

[..The Russian daily Kommersant published a report on Nov. 29 stating
that up to 800 Russian special forces, or spetsnaz, began arriving in
Kyiv early on the morning of Nov. 23 and changed into Ukrainian
uniforms at a Ukrainian military base just outside the capital. ..]

The source stated that each plane, after landing, was then loaded with
sensitive documents from the Presidential Administration, the SBU
and other departments before taking off again, bound for Moscow.

So, if they are taking the secret documents, does that mean they
expect to lose control of Ukraine soon? Yes.

● Of course, it should be noted that any action that may lead to a
breakup will come with a price.

(Ukrainian) Army To Defend Ukraine’s Territorial Integrity (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=523653&C=landwar)

[.. The army will defend the "territorial integrity of Ukraine,"
Defense Minister Oleksandr Kuzmuk warned Nov. 29, denouncing
appeals for autonomy amid the country’s political crisis.

"No matter what the circumstances, the Ukrainian armed forces
will guarantee the stability, sovereignty and territorial
integrity of Ukraine," Kuzmuk said in a statement. ..]

wrong, Europe always supported Ukrainian opposition even during the 90's while the us actively supported the regime, (which also is part of the "coalition of the willing" by the way..............................) untill a year ago the us suddenly changed sides (maybe because Ukrain withdrew some troops from Iraq?). So the US is supporting dictatorships in "new Europe" while old Europe wants democracy. It was the same in Greece and Turkey during the 70's (us support for military regimes in "new Europe") and again during the 90's (us-support for regimes in azerbaidjan, Georgia, Uzbekistan, ...)

I'm not "old Europe" however, my origins are in "new Europe" and I support president Putin and stability in Ukrain. Western nationalists are dangerous for unity of Ukrain (if they for example outlaw the use of Russian I think the Russians ought to resist and they will... than a civil war will be likely) and perhaps they are even anti-semitic, remember the collaboration of Western ukrainian nationalists to the Holocaust during WWII...................

[Mil]

I don't care who wins - as long as it will not end up with pogroms.

[Mediocrates]

About a quarter of Ukranians are Russian, speak Russian or Ukranian like a Russian. It's a popular idea in Russia right now that eventually the Ukraine will be reabsorbed into Russia.

[KSO]

Worst case scenario, the current president says no more elections, declares victory and arrests a few political opponents, puts the army on 'alert'. Then what? I suspect very little would come of it and the Ukraine would remain more or less at the fringes of modern politics; not quite a brutal repressive developing nation but not an emerging ex Soviet bloc state either. Turkmenistan-West?It is so sad that European Colonealism is still not dead, and they think they know better then the Ukrainian people who should lead their country, The issue here is pretty simple there were elections Yanukovich won Yushenko lost very simple but of course European idiots with their made up theory that Russia is still their enemy decided they will give the insane candidate (Swearing yourself to office in an almost empty parliament when the elections are not yet resolved is pretty insane thing to do) the right to make his little revolution, well very good unfortunately if Yushenko will win it means the end of Ukrainian democracy and it's a shame because Ukraine was the only country in the USSR with geniune democracy and one of the only countries where Power actually changed hands after democratic elections.
And the Ironic thing my Father was in the Ukraine as an International inspector on the elections and he sais that there were violetions not too much just as in the Israeli or American elections but the funny thing is that most of the violetions he saw were from the Yushenko Camp!

[takeo]

It is so sad that European Colonealism is still not dead, and they think they know better then the Ukrainian people who should lead their country, The issue here is pretty simple there were elections Yanukovich won Yushenko lost very simple but of course European idiots with their made up theory that Russia is still their enemy decided they will give the insane candidate (Swearing yourself to office in an almost empty parliament when the elections are not yet resolved is pretty insane thing to do) the right to make his little revolution, well very good unfortunately if Yushenko will win it means the end of Ukrainian democracy and it's a shame because Ukraine was the only country in the USSR with geniune democracy and one of the only countries where Power actually changed hands after democratic elections.
And the Ironic thing my Father was in the Ukraine as an International inspector on the elections and he sais that there were violetions not too much just as in the Israeli or American elections but the funny thing is that most of the violetions he saw were from the Yushenko Camp!

exactly, in Western Ukraine there were also a lot of reported violations, in favor of Iuchenko...

[KSO]

exactly, in Western Ukraine there were also a lot of reported violations, in favor of Iuchenko...And the other sad thing of this story is the Media, I am now in Israel and when I watch the news they present it like it's Hitler VS Mother Theresa elections, while the truth is both of them have very similar positions on most issues both of them kept a similar line while serving as Prime Ministers, and there are only slight differences between the two, butfor some reasons it's important for Europe and the US to fight against the windmills of Russia...

[Mediocrates]

You want to imply that the current regime was not corrupt and did not disappear political opponents. The final irony is that the lasting Soviet legacy is not so much the apparachiks that support it but the general acceptance of the entire system's failure and banality.

[KSO]

You want to imply that the current regime was not corrupt and did not disappear political opponents. The final irony is that the lasting Soviet legacy is not so much the apparachiks that support it but the general acceptance of the entire system's failure and banality.Again everything is subjective for the former USSR Ukraine was the closest thing to Democracy, they actually have Various Political parties, and Again it's the only Soviet country that I know for Sure Power changed hands in elections and for the area it's a big step forward, after all Russia never changed it's Tsaristic way of goverment (The fact some of them called themselves KPSS Leaders and some Presedents doesn't matter)
As I understand from people who recently been there, Ukraine in the last couple of years made a big progress and Unlike Russia where only Moscow is affected by the progress, most of the Ukraine benefited from it, So maybe the Kuchma Regime was not fully democratic according to Western standarts but it is the most progressive country in the Soviet bloc.

[takeo]

Again everything is subjective for the former USSR Ukraine was the closest thing to Democracy, they actually have Various Political parties, and Again it's the only Soviet country that I know for Sure Power changed hands in elections and for the area it's a big step forward, after all Russia never changed it's Tsaristic way of goverment (The fact some of them called themselves KPSS Leaders and some Presedents doesn't matter)
As I understand from people who recently been there, Ukraine in the last couple of years made a big progress and Unlike Russia where only Moscow is affected by the progress, most of the Ukraine benefited from it, So maybe the Kuchma Regime was not fully democratic according to Western standarts but it is the most progressive country in the Soviet bloc.

hmm, I doubt so, I heard life in Ukraine is generally worse than in Russia.
I think Kuchma was not a good president but Iuchenko appears to be worse.
I like Lukashenko, life is Belarus is better than in most of Russia and definately better than in the Ukraine. (despite European boycott of Belarus)

The mistake the Soviet leaders made was to implode the system instead of reforming it like the Chinese did. In countries were the system was maintained such as Belarus standards of life didn't degenerate as in other republics.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:


hmm, I doubt so, I heard life in Ukraine is generally worse than in Russia.


Depends where in Russsia.


I like Lukashenko, life is Belarus is better than in most of Russia and definately better than in the Ukraine. (despite European boycott of Belarus)

Funny, funny, funny....

The mistake the Soviet leaders made was to implode the system instead of reforming it like the Chinese did. In countries were the system was maintained such as Belarus standards of life didn't degenerate as in other republics.

What are you talking about??????????????????????????

[minusthejihad]

Takeo will invent whatever logic or reason he needs to continue believing in the Communist Manifesto poster on his wall, comrades!

[Illuminatus]

1) takeo writes:

[..Europe always supported Ukrainian opposition ..]

No it hasn't. The Ukrainian opposition is commited to passing laws,
reforming it's economy and restructuring its constitution in order to
the enter the EU - However I agree with the Polish Premier who says
that 'the EU Neglected Ukraine for Too Long' . (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=ajCl6eQRyYzU&refer=europe)

Two primary reasons why the USA supports and wants to see a strong, viable
European Union - is to prevent any customery wholesale slaughter and
manage instability like what's happening in the Ukraine.

2) and this gem:

[..the us actively supported the regime ..]

- but Viktor Yushchenko has an American wife which helps fuels the charge
in Russia that Americans help fund the opposition, or this charge on state
run Russian TV

'America wants to turn Ukraine in to a FRONT to fight Russia..'

http://www.vesti.ru/comments.html?id=31914&tid=25004
(sorry it's in Russian, KSO, corrections are most welcomed)

The article called (on main page) "Who pays for Ukrainian riots?" Describes
how Ukrainian People's protest was orchestrated by George W. Bush via
Richard Lugar and how millions of dollars from US and EU were paid to turn
Ukraine in to a battle zone, a front to pressure Russia.

(the article seems to assume that everybody understands that main focus of
the 'West' is disintegration of Russia)

Just blame Bush? They should do what the Democrats, Howard Dean & John
Kerry do all the time - just blame it all on the Bush tax cuts. More credibility.

3) But there's more!

Proof that the US supported the "regime" ? - The Ukraine was part of the
"coalition of the willing". That should do it.

Naturally, we should further conclude the that [..the US is supporting
dictatorships in "new Europe" ..] such as Poland and Slovania, along with
two NATO allies - Greece and Turkey during the height of the cold-war.

So while you personally support Lukashenko, Saddam and Putin

- America "supporting dictatoships" ? bad, very bad ........

4) just one more:

[.. I think the Russians ought to resist ..]

You do mean Ukrainian citizens don't you? - Outlawing a language is against
international law. Unless of course, it's said just to inflame the situation.

[KettleWhistle]

I like Lukashenko, life is Belarus is better than in most of Russia and definately better than in the Ukraine. (despite European boycott of Belarus)
:D :D :D ROFLMAO

[goliath]

Mr.Koval,Ukrainian Minister delegated with the embassy of Ukraine in Paris ,waits for the decision of the supreme court ,to now if news elections are going to take place.
This information ,should be know tomorrow on wednesday december 1st,enter 11:00 am and 14:00 pm.

[Roland]

hmm, I doubt so, I heard life in Ukraine is generally worse than in Russia.
I think Kuchma was not a good president but Iuchenko appears to be worse.
I like Lukashenko, life is Belarus is better than in most of Russia and definately better than in the Ukraine. (despite European boycott of Belarus)

The mistake the Soviet leaders made was to implode the system instead of reforming it like the Chinese did. In countries were the system was maintained such as Belarus standards of life didn't degenerate as in other republics.
I heared life stinks in all former USSR territories if you are not rich, and cities are better places than remote outposts, no matter if it is Ukraine, Russia, Chechnya, Sibiria, Khazakhstan or Belarus.
Lukashenko is an evil dictat and I wonder why he is not on Bush's axis of evil.
I only hope for the Ukrainian's people's sake that they won't face a civil war, it is what they need least.

[minusthejihad]

Hey, I'm not 100% on this subject, but to me, there looks like there can be no doubt that Yushchenko was poisoned. Man, he looks like he got hit with the same ugly stick that pummeled Michael Moore. I saw a picture yesterday comparing how he looked only 6 months ago. A completely different person. I hope he wins just for the sacrifice of facial malformation he endured.

[KettleWhistle]

Hey, I'm not 100% on this subject, but to me, there looks like there can be no doubt that Yushchenko was poisoned. Man, he looks like he got hit with the same ugly stick that pummeled Michael Moore. I saw a picture yesterday comparing how he looked only 6 months ago. A completely different person. I hope he wins just for the sacrifice of facial malformation he endured.
My Ukie friends are telling me he just drank way way too much booze.:D

[Mediocrates]

Hey, I'm not 100% on this subject, but to me, there looks like there can be no doubt that Yushchenko was poisoned. Man, he looks like he got hit with the same ugly stick that pummeled Michael Moore. I saw a picture yesterday comparing how he looked only 6 months ago. A completely different person. I hope he wins just for the sacrifice of facial malformation he endured.

The rumor was dioxin poisoning. There was something on BBC about stress induced eczema or rosacea or some other thing like that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4041321.stm

[Mil]

Posted by KettleWhistle:


My Ukie friends are telling me he just drank way way too much booze.

While on the compaign trail in some village far up in the Rocky-Carpathians he tried off some local delightful spirits to appease the local aborigenese.

The other theory is that he ate sushi of the local Chernobol catch.

[Illuminatus]

From the press conference at Marinskiy Palace. From what I'm hearing, President Kuchma announced:

1. All parties have signed an agreement. It was a "genuine compromise." There is going to be a revote, though I don't think the type has been decided yet.

2. There is going to be an expert working group to look at the legal issues of the election. They will follow the recommendations of the Supreme Court.

3. All sides are renouncing violence.

4. The protesters are going to stop blocking government buildings.

5. There will be constitutional reform during the upcoming period.

Looks like the pro-Lukashenko/Saddam/Putin axis is having another bad day.

[KettleWhistle]

Looks like the pro-Lukashenko/Saddam/Putin axis is having another bad day.
Putin is a smart guy, but in comparison to Lukashenko, Boris Yeltsin could be called an extremely effective and sober-minded leader. Unlike Saddam, he is hardly a "leader" worth worrying about.

[Illuminatus]

......wonders about the Axis of Weasels (Old Europe) with
Six questions to the critics of Ukraine's orange revolution. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1364243,00.html)

Given their open support of keeping Saddam Hussein in power longer,
why does Mr. Ash appear to be surprised?

[takeo]

Posted by Takeo:


hmm, I doubt so, I heard life in Ukraine is generally worse than in Russia.


Depends where in Russsia.


I like Lukashenko, life is Belarus is better than in most of Russia and definately better than in the Ukraine. (despite European boycott of Belarus)

Funny, funny, funny....

The mistake the Soviet leaders made was to implode the system instead of reforming it like the Chinese did. In countries were the system was maintained such as Belarus standards of life didn't degenerate as in other republics.

What are you talking about??????????????????????????

You know very well what I'm talking about, Belarus has a higher standard of living than either Russia (in general, nor moscow of course) or the Ukrain.

[takeo]

Takeo will invent whatever logic or reason he needs to continue believing in the Communist Manifesto poster on his wall, comrades!

please visit the former Soviet Union again(did you finally went to Azerbaidjan?), compare and talk to a lot of people to get a more comprehensive view of the matters.

[takeo]

1) takeo writes:

[..Europe always supported Ukrainian opposition ..]

No it hasn't. The Ukrainian opposition is commited to passing laws,
reforming it's economy and restructuring its constitution in order to
the enter the EU - However I agree with the Polish Premier who says
that 'the EU Neglected Ukraine for Too Long' .[/url]

Yes, but during the 90's when Kutchma reformed legislation the EU protested while the US (that Albright ugly b*tch) continued to support him.


[QUOTE]- but Viktor Yushchenko has an American wife which helps fuels the charge
in Russia that Americans help fund the opposition, or this charge on state
run Russian TV

'America wants to turn Ukraine in to a FRONT to fight Russia..'

yes they changed sides, but only very recently, as in Georgia too by the way. In other countries like Azerbaidjan or Uzbekistan they're still actively supporting the regime.




(the article seems to assume that everybody understands that main focus of
the 'West' is disintegration of Russia)

which is the truth.




Just blame Bush? They should do what the Democrats, Howard Dean & John
Kerry do all the time - just blame it all on the Bush tax cuts. More credibility.

actually the democrats, and Soros especially are to blame as well.


Proof that the US supported the "regime" ? - The Ukraine was part of the
"coalition of the willing". That should do it.

the coalition of the willing to make Iraq suupposedly democratic is composed of several tirannies.


Naturally, we should further conclude the that [..the US is supporting
dictatorships in "new Europe" ..] such as Poland and Slovania, along with
two NATO allies - Greece and Turkey during the height of the cold-war.

those nato-allies were military dictatorships locking up torturing and killing political opposers, Europe protested and supported the opposition, the us (as with pinochet) supported the tyrants.




So while you personally support Lukashenko, Saddam and Putin

yeah, so what you know the theory about "my son of a bitch"... at least I don't excuse invading, terrorising and destroying countries by "bringing freedom and democracy" as the us always has.




You do mean Ukrainian citizens don't you? - Outlawing a language is against
international law. Unless of course, it's said just to inflame the situation.[/

it will happen when Iushenko graps power

[takeo]

I heared life stinks in all former USSR territories if you are not rich, and cities are better places than remote outposts, no matter if it is Ukraine, Russia, Chechnya, Sibiria, Khazakhstan or Belarus.
Lukashenko is an evil dictat and I wonder why he is not on Bush's axis of evil.
I only hope for the Ukrainian's people's sake that they won't face a civil war, it is what they need least.

Lukasheno is loved by most Belarussians and elected by an overwelming majority, elections which were considered honest by Russian parliament observers.

btw being on Bush' axis of evil list is a privilige, Bush being the most hated person on this planet.

[takeo]

My Ukie friends are telling me he just drank way way too much booze.:D

in that case most Ukrainians and certainly all Russians and Georgians should look like him...

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:


Lukasheno is loved by most Belarussians and elected by an overwelming majority, elections which were considered honest by Russian parliament observers.


M da-aaaaaaaaaaa. Dude - you on drugs or something?

[takeo]

From the press conference at Marinskiy Palace. From what I'm hearing, President Kuchma announced:

1. All parties have signed an agreement. It was a "genuine compromise." There is going to be a revote, though I don't think the type has been decided yet.

2. There is going to be an expert working group to look at the legal issues of the election. They will follow the recommendations of the Supreme Court.

3. All sides are renouncing violence.

4. The protesters are going to stop blocking government buildings.

5. There will be constitutional reform during the upcoming period.

Looks like the pro-Lukashenko/Saddam/Putin axis is having another bad day.

says who? looks like the opposition is backing down.

[KettleWhistle]

Lukasheno is loved by most Belarussians and elected by an overwelming majority, elections which were considered honest by Russian parliament observers.
Such are the effects of readily available moonshine and him being the only candidate running.


Bush being the most hated person on this planet.

Yooo-hooo

[takeo]

Putin is a smart guy, but in comparison to Lukashenko, Boris Yeltsin could be called an extremely effective and sober-minded leader. Unlike Saddam, he is hardly a "leader" worth worrying about.

Lukasheno is a very efficient leader, on the contrary to yeltsin, if not he would no longer be in power, being so controversial in the West and some circles in russia (tough no longer, those circles have been heavily beaten putin)
And belarussians have a better life than most Russians or Ukrainians, which they owe partly to lukashenko.

[Mediocrates]

So basically nothing happened and it all is going to amount to more of the same. Good job!

[Mil]

Sasha when was the last time you've been to Minsk?

[takeo]

Posted by Takeo:


Lukasheno is loved by most Belarussians and elected by an overwelming majority, elections which were considered honest by Russian parliament observers.


M da-aaaaaaaaaaa. Dude - you on drugs or something?

So do you have any sources, from inside Belarus, which proove the contrary?

[takeo]

Sasha when was the last time you've been to Minsk?

last year, passing trough

and you?

[takeo]

HDI almost on the same level as Russia (but Ukrain lags behind), but given the fact wealth in Russia is very unequally distributed, and despite the lack of natural resources . also health system is better in Belarus.

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_8_2_1.html

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_133_2_1.html

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:


So do you have any sources, from inside Belarus, which proove the contrary?

Yes, I still have family in Minsk.

My parents' friends just returned from Minsk a month ago. Their impression was - HORRIBLE.

[minusthejihad]

please visit the former Soviet Union again(did you finally went to Azerbaidjan?), compare and talk to a lot of people to get a more comprehensive view of the matters.

My parents just returned from there. Thanks. And they'd call you Choknitey Kazol Comrade!

[minusthejihad]

Sasha when was the last time you've been to Minsk?

I may have as a child (wouldn't remember), but I moved away from Baku when I was 4. Skipped the chance to visit family in Moscow a few months ago. I'm sad, but there's always time to go back and check it out.

[Mediocrates]

Ahh sunny Koidanov now called Dzerzhinsk (named after a Jew you know, Felix Dzerzhinsky)

Grandpapa was from there.

[Illuminatus]

Another bad day for the pro Lukashenko-Saddam-Putin axis.

The Supreme Court has ruled that: (http://kyivpost.com/bn/21989/)

1. The election from November 21 is invalid.
2. There will be another run-off election, between Yushchenko and Yanukovich.
3. The election will be held before the end of December.

People were all jumping up and down and so excited. This decision is
wonderful and right. And honestly, I am so happy and amazed at how
things are turning out. They're celebrating! and rightfully so!

● As for takeo's three beloved heroes......

1) Putin doesn't want a new election (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11580449%255E2703,00.html)

quote:
[..RUSSIAN President Vladimir Putin spoke out against a quick re-run
of Ukraine's disputed elections yesterday ..]

2) Lukashenko "won" a referendum to extend mandate (http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-131060-16&type=News)

however (quoting Euractiv):

[.. Both the EU and the US have voiced doubts that the poll was free and
fair. The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)
has said that the referendum had been conducted in a climate of fear. ..]

3) and Saddam?

Well, he did win 100 percent of the elections in Iraq - didn't he. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2331951.stm)

What a shame - now he's in jail awaiting trial for genocide (http://massgraves.info/)

....another sad....sad day for our losing axis........

[Mil]

Posted by Med:

(named after a Jew you know, Felix Dzerzhinsky)

Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky was a 100% POLAK.

[Mediocrates]

ah my mistake

[KSO]

ah my mistakeWell Zhelezniy Felix was a bigger mistake, if it makes you feel better...

[Mil]

Well Zhelezniy Felix was a bigger mistake, if it makes you feel better...

By the way Lukashenko, before becoming Papa-Boss, was in fact the grand-manager of #1 Belorussian collective farm named Dzerzinski.

[KettleWhistle]

Well Zhelezniy Felix was a bigger mistake, if it makes you feel better...

By the way Lukashenko, before becoming Papa-Boss, was in fact the grand-manager of #1 Belorussian collective farm named Dzerzinski.And I was told he caught a really big fish once. This big: http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/115000/images/_116265_lukasheko_gesture300.jpg

Which later got away, and got him really mad. Like so: http://www.cpj.org/news/2001/news_images/Lukashenko.jpg

and so:http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20041122/capt.sge.igh86.221104192129.photo00.photo.default-272x390.jpg

and even more so: http://www.newcanada.com/128/lukashenko.jpg

(well, he is one ugly mutha)

[Mil]

Good one Kettle!!!!!!!!!!

[takeo]

]Another bad day for the pro Lukashenko-Saddam-Putin axis.


The Supreme Court has ruled that: (http://kyivpost.com/bn/21989/)

1. The election from November 21 is invalid.
2. There will be another run-off election, between Yushchenko and Yanukovich.
3. The election will be held before the end of December.

People were all jumping up and down and so excited. This decision is
wonderful and right. And honestly, I am so happy and amazed at how
things are turning out. They're celebrating! and rightfully so!

so let4s see what will happen next... Im very exited as well.. at least iushenko isn3t president as he claims he is... and if he becomes president trouble is ahead, ukrain can never economically survive without russia and the east will declare independance, they will become another georgia. perhaps ukrainian voters will be smart enough to avoid such a scenario.


[..RUSSIAN President Vladimir Putin spoke out against a quick re-run
of Ukraine's disputed elections yesterday ..]

yeah so what, putin can decide about life or death of the ukrainian economy and he can even decide wether or not there will be war in ukrain. they should be very friendly to him.


2) Lukashenko "won" a referendum to extend mandate (http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-131060-16&type=News)

however (quoting Euractiv):

[.. Both the EU and the US have voiced doubts that the poll was free and
fair. The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)
has said that the referendum had been conducted in a climate of fear. ..]

the osce is not an independant organisation which has been sufficiently proven in yugoslavia and kosovo especially, it is a tool for the EU. all other independant observers said the vote was fair and free. and mill some people really hate lukashenko especially the emerging middle class but among ordinary people and especially on the countryside he4s very popular.


3) and Saddam?

Well, he did win 100 percent of the elections in Iraq - didn't he. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2331951.stm)

What a shame - now he's in jail awaiting trial for genocide (http://massgraves.info/)

yeah and his country is a real mess which may be even worse, poverty, child mortality, destruction and terrorism have increased astonishingly. but the positive side is that the perpetrators of all this are suffering as well this week the 1300th American occupier has died in iraq.


....another sad....sad day for our losing axis...

we don4t know yet too early to say
what s for sure alrealy is that american imperialism suffered heavily in iraq and that russia (and china of course) is once againa power to be reckoned with, on the contrary to the 904s.

[Illuminatus]

BBC America (on cable) as well as bbc.com - has just started an
"an in-depth series" of Russia's most recent contribution to
mankind.

BBC- Chechnya: 10 years of conflict (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4063033.stm)

The BBC asks
[.. Why has nobody been able to bring the fighting to an end? ..]

-- According to the Novaya gazeta, which wrote in its bi-weekly's
22 November edition that more than 15,000 Russian servicemen
had been killed in Chechnya over the last decade.

It writes:
[.The figures of our losses in Afghanistan have already been surpassed..]

In total to date:

200,000 killed in Chechnya in 10 years (http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=10237)

- 20,000 children have been killed in Chechnya in the same period.

Please takeo, gives us more examples on how much better the Russians
and the Axis of Weasels can do.

takeo writes:
[..putin can decide about life or death of the ukrainian economy
and he can even decide wether or not there will be war in ukrain.
they should be very friendly to him...]

As friendly as Iraqis were to Saddam Hussein?

If Mother Russia can't subdue a Chechen population of 1,103,686 -
how is the Kremlim even going to contemplate pacifying a population
of 51,000,000 of whom only 30 percent are ethnic Russians?

Putin has two options:

1) More wet dreams of Russia's former glory and grandeur

2) Launch a couple of those rusting nuclear missles which haven't
been tested in a decade - one might surprise everybody and actually
detonate (somewhere)

. . . . . . . .

Of course the following is timely don't you think, given the current
situation in the Ukraine.

RIA Novosti is reporting that 'RUSSIAN ARMY GETS NEW RECRUITS' (http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=5157426&startrow=1&date=2004-12-01&do_alert=0)

[.. The fall military draft in Russia ended on December 1, 2004. This
year 176,393 young men between the ages of 18 and 27 who did not have
deferments were drafted into the Army. ..]

interesting -- and as they say -- read the whole thing.

The current problems in the Middle East as well as much of the root
causes of Islamo-Terrorism owes its legacy to Europe's failed colonism.
Yet another proud contribution to the planet from Old Europe who now
have become the famous - Axis of Weasels.

[Illuminatus]

In time for the newstands on Monday morning, Newsweek magazine makes
this obsevation --> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6652859/site/newsweek/

[.. Russia's leader thought Ukraine was in his pocket—until Ukrainians
showed how badly he had miscalculated. But the former KGB colonel still
isn't about to abandon his dream of bringing back the Kremlin's glory
days of worldwide influence ..]

I actually feel somewhat sorry for Putin. He's tried to consolidate his
power in Russia in ways that are sometimes plausible -- in many ways,
his writ doesn't run far from Moscow, even now -- but he's overreached.
The question is whether he'll be smart enough to climb down gracefully,
rather than doing things that make matters worse.

Just like Saddam Hussein, another "one bites the dust" and yet another
win for the New Europe.

The impact of the values of the New Europe (the coalition of the willing)
is having a positive effect. The Australian writes: (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11596720%255E2703,00.html)

[..The EU officials are delighted not just to have had a diplomatic triumph
over Moscow but also to have been able to show a united face and to work
with the US without the tension that has divided Washington and Brussels
over issues such as Iraq, Iran and Palestine. ..]

Still, it's probably too soon to celebrate death of Old Europe.

[takeo]

The BBC asks
[.. Why has nobody been able to bring the fighting to an end? ..]

-- According to the Novaya gazeta, which wrote in its bi-weekly's
22 November edition that more than 15,000 Russian servicemen
had been killed in Chechnya over the last decade.

It writes:
[.The figures of our losses in Afghanistan have already been surpassed..]

In total to date:

200,000 killed in Chechnya in 10 years (http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=10237)

The Russians in Chechnia are fighting against real terrorists who are really a danger to Russia (on the contrary to Saddam), this war is a necesary evil. (and I wouldn't be very surprised if the us, trough some vasal regimes such as Saoudi Arabia or Pakistan, financed this war as well. )


[QUOTE]- 20,000 children have been killed in Chechnya in the same period.

the same number as in Iraq after one and a half year of American occupation according to various sources...



Please takeo, gives us more examples on how much better the Russians
and the Axis of Weasels can do.

Russia stopped its economic decline caused by the introduction of capitalism in the 90's, restored order, jailed criminals like Hodorkovsky and resored government controll over the economy. Many of the former Soviet-nations are back in Russian influence, and Russia is extending its influence in the middle East. New business and security contracts have been signed with Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Libia. The Chechen terrorists haven't been defeated yet but they are hunted down in the mountains and chased from the rest of chechnia.





If Mother Russia can't subdue a Chechen population of 1,103,686 -
how is the Kremlim even going to contemplate pacifying a population
of 51,000,000 of whom only 30 percent are ethnic Russians?

More than 30% consider themselves Russian or russified in the east and south of Ukrain. And putin doesn't have to occupy Ukrain, if he gives just even moral support to separatists and if he shuts down the border he'll destroy Ukraine, more or less as Russia did in the case of Georgia.




Putin has two options:

1) More wet dreams of Russia's former glory and grandeur

2) Launch a couple of those rusting nuclear missles which haven't
been tested in a decade - one might surprise everybody and actually
detonate (somewhere)

Slowly Russia is reestablishing its former glory, the economy is booming with 7% annually since putin took power. Under Yeltsin the economy was shrinking with 5% or more annualy.

. . . . . . . .




The current problems in the Middle East as well as much of the root
causes of Islamo-Terrorism owes its legacy to Europe's failed colonism.


BS, the current situation in Iraq has been entirely created by Bush and his administration. If they had not invaded Iraq there wouldn't be war now and fundamentalists wouldn't have taken over. The situation in Iraq has been caused by a determined US-policy to gain controll over the middle east. Europe tried to stop Bush but they didn't succeed. Now 100000 Iraqi's and 1300 Americans died as a result of the lies of Bush and co. And, on the contrary to the war in Chechnia, this war was totally unnecessary and even contrary to the goal of fighting islamic terror, since Iraq had one of the least islamic regimes in the region. But, as France in the 50's, the us will pay dearly for this mistake. We haven't seen the end yet and another 11th september is very well possible. But this time don't expect worldwide condolences. You asked for trouble and now you're in big trouble, not our problem.



Yet another proud contribution to the planet from Old Europe who now
have become the famous - Axis of Weasels.

At least the weasels aren't dying in a totally useless bloody, expensive and cruel war in a faraway country where everyone hates you. The weasels were more intelligent and only attacked their real ennemies, not random countries like Iraq. The weasels aren't hated and despised all over the world.

[takeo]

[.. Russia's leader thought Ukraine was in his pocket—until Ukrainians
showed how badly he had miscalculated. But the former KGB colonel still
isn't about to abandon his dream of bringing back the Kremlin's glory
days of worldwide influence ..]

I actually feel somewhat sorry for Putin. He's tried to consolidate his
power in Russia in ways that are sometimes plausible -- in many ways,
his writ doesn't run far from Moscow, even now -- but he's overreached.
The question is whether he'll be smart enough to climb down gracefully,
rather than doing things that make matters worse.

Just like Saddam Hussein, another "one bites the dust" and yet another
win for the New Europe.

You mean the new Europe like the new Iraq? No thanks..........
Which countries are part of the "new" Europe? Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Georgia? roflol... , or perhaps the Italy of Berlusconi? (who lost the regional elections, and caused already three general strikes in an environment of economic decline, next elections he's OUT and probably in prison for corruption charges)







[..The EU officials are delighted not just to have had a diplomatic triumph
over Moscow but also to have been able to show a united face and to work
with the US without the tension that has divided Washington and Brussels
over issues such as Iraq, Iran and Palestine. ..]

without France and Germany there wouldn't be a united face, they agree about this particular issue but the gap about the middle East is widening. More and more members of the "coalition of the willing" are leaving the sinking titanic and turning their back on the us.
In the middle East in the meanwhile countries like Libia, Iran, Lebanon, Syria or Algeria are strongly in the European influence while former US-ally Turkey (the strongest country economically and militarily in the region) turned its back to the former master, even refused to give essential support in Iraq and is heading full speed in the direction of Europe.



Still, it's probably too soon to celebrate death of Old Europe.

the gap between Europe and the us will only narrow when the new US will emerge... Bush is hated all over the world and as long as he and his fundamentalist and business pals remain in power the us will have few friends in Europe or all over the world.

[KettleWhistle]

In takeo's twisted world Russia and France, with all their chauvinism, racism, and anti-Semitism are the cultural beacons of the world, and everyone who calls them on any of the above is "wrong," and anyone who disagrees with Chirac & Co. on foreign policy issues doesn't know what they are doing. That is, as opposed to France and Russia, who support and finance terrorism by supporting Iran and Syria, and China when they defended genocide of Sudanese in the U.N. along of France. I would actually like to see takeos of this world start financing the U.N. to the same degree as the U.S., while having their families undergo crises like those in Sudan, Nigeria, Vietnam, North Korea, and other places where people suffer from the regimes with which they sympathise so much. Why don't you, takeo, go to work in potato fields in Birobijan for a couple years in order to feel the full extent of Russian economic growth under His Majesty Putin, and then come back here, and offer us your analysis of the situation there?


Russia stopped its economic decline caused by the introduction of capitalism in the 90's, restored order, jailed criminals like Hodorkovsky and resored government controll over the economy. Many of the former Soviet-nations are back in Russian influence, and Russia is extending its influence in the middle East. New business and security contracts have been signed with Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Libia. The Chechen terrorists haven't been defeated yet but they are hunted down in the mountains and chased from the rest of chechnia.

More than 30% consider themselves Russian or russified in the east and south of Ukrain. And putin doesn't have to occupy Ukrain, if he gives just even moral support to separatists and if he shuts down the border he'll destroy Ukraine, more or less as Russia did in the case of Georgia.

Slowly Russia is reestablishing its former glory, the economy is booming with 7% annually since putin took power. Under Yeltsin the economy was shrinking with 5% or more annualy.

Yep, what an accomplishment: government control of the media, suppression of private buseness activity as opposed to protection of business from criminal elements, support of radical regimes in Iran and Syrian, and sales of second-rate technology to Egypt and Lebanon. And Russian former glory? If you call suppression of neighboring nations, and forced russification "glory," then maybe you have a point.

I, for one, feel very sympathetic to the "nationalists" in Ukraine. These people are not anti-Russian, and they very much intend on maintaining ties with Russia. They just don't want Russian dominance, and want to have self-determination like any other independent nation. So I very much hope that they'll oust the convicted fellons of Yanuchovich and Co. and will let their legislature and elected officials, and not the gang in Kremlin, set the policy on relationship with Russia, the status of Russian language, and relationships with other countries.

[takeo]

In takeo's twisted world Russia and France, with all their chauvinism, racism, and anti-Semitism are the cultural beacons of the world

I didn't say so, but certainly the us isn't either...
btw no chauvinism, racism and anti-semitism in the us??????????


and everyone who calls them on any of the above is "wrong," and anyone who disagrees with Chirac & Co. on foreign policy issues doesn't know what they are doing.

everyone who's lying to the public about an illegal war that killed 100000 people is WRONG and doesn't know what he's doing.






That is, as opposed to France and Russia, who support and finance terrorism by supporting Iran and Syria

stop lying, the main supporter of terrorism is SAoudi arabia, not Iran nor Syria, a vasal nation and close friend of the US. The US always used Saoudi Arabia to finance terrorism, such as in Afghanistan in the 80's. Syria is a secular country (as Iraq used to be) and it is on the black list of the fundamentalist regime of G. W. Bush, who prefers medieval fundamentalist tirannies in the region, as his love and personal friendship with the Saoudi king prooves.





, a
nd China when they defended genocide of Sudanese in the U.N. along of France.

as opposed to the US who commit genocide themselves, such as in Falluja.




I would actually like to see takeos of this world start financing the U.N. to the same degree as the U.S.

they do, France pays as much as the us per capita.


,
while having their families undergo crises like those in Sudan, Nigeria, Vietnam, North Korea, and other places where people suffer from the regimes with which they sympathise so much.

Vietnam is a strongly growing economy nowadays, but the country is still recovering from years of US-terror, massive destruction and massmurder in Vietnam.






Why don't you, takeo, go to work in potato fields in Birobijan for a couple years in order to feel the full extent of Russian economic growth under His Majesty Putin, and then come back here, and offer us your analysis of the situation there?

why don't you go to live in the new "democratic Iraq"? Or perhaps in Guatemala, a country and regime which has always been dominated and supported by the us?
Russian living standards dropped considerably as a result of the us-supported regime of Yeltsin, but since a few years is rising once again.
.




Yep, what an accomplishment: government control of the media, suppression of private buseness activity as opposed to protection of business from criminal elements, support of radical regimes in Iran and Syrian, and sales of second-rate technology to Egypt and Lebanon.

as opposed to invading countries, forcing third world countries to open up their market while closing your own, and supporting corrupted tirannies all over the world.





And Russian former glory? If you call suppression of neighboring nations, and forced russification "glory," then maybe you have a point.

comparable to the restored US-glory in Latin america, for example 2 years ago when the us supported a military coup against an elected president in Venezuela.



I, for one, feel very sympathetic to the "nationalists" in Ukraine. These people are not anti-Russian, and they very much intend on maintaining ties with Russia. They just don't want Russian dominance, and want to have self-determination like any other independent nation.

But they'll discriminate against non-Ukrainian speakers and, as all nationalists and specifically in Yugoslavia, will disturb etnic stability. Ukrainian nationalism is also traditionally very antisemitic. But "it's an antisemite but it's my antisemite" seems to be the policy of the US... (cfr. Saoudi Arabia, Egypt, Oman, Yemen, Morocco, ...)
I feel very sympathetic to the "nationalists" in Iraq. These people are not anti-American, and had good ties with the US in the past, but they don't accept US military occupation, and want to have self-determination like any other independant nation.





So I very much hope that they'll oust the convicted fellons of Yanuchovich and Co. and will let their legislature and elected officials, and not the gang in Kremlin, set the policy on relationship with Russia, the status of Russian language, and relationships with other countries.

fraud has happened in the West as well, in favor of Iuchenko. So it's not yet sure how the vote will turn out. It's also not sure how the east will react, they have declared already there will be a referendum about independance in january IF Iuchenko wins. So in short if Iuchenko wins civil war will doom as a reality.

[KettleWhistle]

I didn't say so, but certainly the us isn't either...
btw no chauvinism, racism and anti-semitism in the us??????????
everyone who's lying to the public about an illegal war that killed 100000 people is WRONG and doesn't know what he's doing.

stop lying, the main supporter of terrorism is SAoudi arabia, not Iran nor Syria, a vasal nation and close friend of the US. The US always used Saoudi Arabia to finance terrorism, such as in Afghanistan in the 80's. Syria is a secular country (as Iraq used to be) and it is on the black list of the fundamentalist regime of G. W. Bush, who prefers medieval fundamentalist tirannies in the region, as his love and personal friendship with the Saoudi king prooves. Nice try to relay the responsibility by resorting to lies. But to address it, no, in the U.S. chauvinism (look up the origins of the word btw, it should hit close to home), racism, and anti-Semitism are not generally accepted and are not parts of our government's policies. Additionally, there was no "illegal war," and there is no such thing as "illegal war," there are no 100,000 deaths, and there were no lies to the public, but only bad intelligence data from CIA and from the British.


as opposed to the US who commit genocide themselves, such as in Falluja. There is no genocide in Falluja. Look up what the word means, genius.


Vietnam is a strongly growing economy nowadays, but the country is still recovering from years of US-terror, massive destruction and massmurder in Vietnam. LOL. Just more lies from you, takeo. Their economy is weak, and the reason for the war there was the attack of the communist North.



why don't you go to live in the new "democratic Iraq"? Or perhaps in Guatemala, a country and regime which has always been dominated and supported by the us?
Russian living standards dropped considerably as a result of the us-supported regime of Yeltsin, but since a few years is rising once again. as opposed to invading countries, forcing third world countries to open up their market while closing your own, and supporting corrupted tirannies all over the world
What, more simplistic lies? Well, of course! You forgot why the U.S. supported Yeltsin, and the fact that U.S. support had nothing to do with his lousy policies. Regarding Iraq, I'm not an Arab or Iraqi, so I have no reason to live there. Just like Jews who live in Russia are not Russians, and most have no business being there. But since you like Russia so much, and support the progress of their chauvinistic government's dictatorial policies of populist percecutions, support for countries that provide support and training to terrorists--Syria and Iran, control of the media, and other such policies, you should move to the Jewish Autonomous Region of Birobijan in the Russian Federation before offering us your opinions on their great progress and other aspects of Russia's "greatness and glory."



comparable to the restored US-glory in Latin america, for example 2 years ago when the us supported a military coup against an elected president in Venezuela.
Another lie. CIA warned Chavez about the coup, but it's not like that should stop you from lieing, right?


But they'll discriminate against non-Ukrainian speakers and, as all nationalists and specifically in Yugoslavia, will disturb etnic stability. Ukrainian nationalism is also traditionally very antisemitic.Rrrrriight, and so the anti-Semitism of the Russians in Ukraine, and Russian-speaking Ukranians has been much different? You are so full of it, man, are you sure you don't have a slight brain damage somewhere? Even most of the brainwashed French have more common sense than you do.

[takeo]

]
Nice try to relay the responsibility by resorting to lies. But to address it, no, in the U.S. chauvinism (look up the origins of the word btw, it should hit close to home),

the word and practice may have a French origin, but just like the statue of liberty it was adopted by Americans since long time.


racism, and anti-Semitism are not generally accepted and are not parts of our government's policies.

neither are they a part of our government's policy, which contains more Jews by the way than the American government.



Additionally, there was no "illegal war," and there is no such thing as "illegal war,"

that's what Hitler and Hirohito said as well



there are no 100,000 deaths

there was a thread about this on this forum, with extensive links. But perhaps denying the hard reality is easier.


,
and there were no lies to the public, but only bad intelligence data from CIA and from the British.

Lies are difficult to prove, but "manipulation" can't be denied. Everyone knew already the "proves" were fake and Iraq didn't have WMD except the majority of Americans (perhaps too much donuts and fat damages your brain, or perhaps it's fox television, the preferate regime-channel, which did an excellent job).




There is no genocide in Falluja. Look up what the word means, genius.

A whole city destroyed including its inhabitants comes close to genocide.



LOL. Just more lies from you, takeo. Their economy is weak, and the reason for the war there was the attack of the communist North.

the economy is growing each year with around 10%... the reason for the destruction were the us interphering in an internal Vietnamese conflict and bombing Vietnamese villages and poisoning the soil.




What, more simplistic lies? Well, of course! You forgot why the U.S. supported Yeltsin

why?


, and the fact that U.S. support had nothing to do with his lousy policies.

no, but US-support kept him in power for another 4 year.


Regarding Iraq, I'm not an Arab or Iraqi, so I have no reason to live there.

I'm no longer a Russian either.



Just like Jews who live in Russia are not Russians, and most have no business being there.

they are Russian, why not? are you an antisemite? I've always taught the extreme zionists and anti-semites go together pretty well, they both want etnic separation.




But since you like Russia so much, and support the progress of their chauvinistic government's dictatorial policies of populist percecutions, support for countries that provide support and training to terrorists--Syria and Iran, control of the media, and other such policies, you should move to the Jewish Autonomous Region of Birobijan in the Russian Federation before offering us your opinions on their great progress and other aspects of Russia's "greatness and glory."

Since you support Israel so much why don't you live there but prefere the safety and affluence of the US?



Another lie. CIA warned Chavez about the coup, but it's not like that should stop you from lieing, right?

BS, even Chavez himself admitted the us had been involved in the coup. and there are plenty of other proves as well. It wouldn't be the first time, they have a whole tradition in this science...



Rrrrriight, and so the anti-Semitism of the Russians in Ukraine, and Russian-speaking Ukranians has been much different?


During WWII most Ukrainians resisted the nazi's except some nationalists in western Ukrain.


You are so full of it, man, are you sure you don't have a slight brain damage somewhere? Even most of the brainwashed French have more common sense than you do.

says the man who calls the murderer of an elected president of Israel a hero...

[Mediocrates]

yaaaaay Ukraine we should all be 4% as progressive and peacloving as the peaceful progressive peaceloving people of the Ukraine!

For everyone else you can't set the bar low enough, for Israel it can never be set too high.

[takeo]

yaaaaay Ukraine we should all be 4% as progressive and peacloving as the peaceful progressive peaceloving people of the Ukraine!

For everyone else you can't set the bar low enough, for Israel it can never be set too high.

Actually this means I have a higher esteem of Israel compared to the Ukrain. Israel is more democratic, less corrupted, more affluent, it has an independant justice, etc. BUT if you compare Israel to Western Europe it lags behind in all those fields.
On one issue Ukrain really is better than Israel, it doesn't occupy neighbouring territories neither does it discriminate against a part of the population (yet).

[KettleWhistle]

the word and practice may have a French origin, but just like the statue of liberty it was adopted by Americans since long time. LOL. Unlike the French and Russian governments, ours doesn't practice it.


neither are they a part of our government's policy, which contains more Jews by the way than the American government.
Another lie. Frence's anti-Zionism is a part of your government's policies, as is the general anti-Semitic rhetoric constantly coming from France. Who cares how many oven operator Jews are in your government?


there was a thread about this on this forum, with extensive links. But perhaps denying the hard reality is easier.
Aparently so, since you are still denying it.


Lies are difficult to prove, but "manipulation" can't be denied. Everyone knew already the "proves" were fake and Iraq didn't have WMD except the majority of Americans (perhaps too much donuts and fat damages your brain, or perhaps it's fox television, the preferate regime-channel, which did an excellent job). A whole city destroyed including its inhabitants comes close to genocide.
Yes, it was fox, and CNN, and AFP, and a number of other media outlets. Bush made a compelling case, and your government resisted because they wanted to protect the oil the contracts. Now, get over it, your side has lost. The anti-Americanism fueled by your government is fading. We have our problems, but at least we are not hypocrits like you to support genocide of thousands of people in Africa for decades. Oh, yes, do get that dictionary out, and look up what "genocide" means.


why?

no, but US-support kept him in power for another 4 year.

US didn't keep him in power. Russians elected him, and that's what kept him in power.


I'm no longer a Russian either. they are Russian, why not? are you an antisemite? I've always taught the extreme zionists and anti-semites go together pretty well, they both want etnic separation. Since you support Israel so much why don't you live there but prefere the safety and affluence of the US?
I lived in Russia, but never was a Russian. I was always a Jew, and my motherland has always been Israel. And your comparison with anti-Semites, is just another example of provincial European simplicity. The difference is not in the goals, but in the reasoning. My concern is for my people, the Jews, and majority of those of them who are in Russia have no business being there. It is a hostile foreign country, where we are not welcome. I support Israel because it the motherland of my people, no matter where we may live.


BS, even Chavez himself admitted the us had been involved in the coup. and there are plenty of other proves as well. It wouldn't be the first time, they have a whole tradition in this science...
LOL, nice try. Chavez is anti-American, so I'm sure he "admitted" many things.


says the man who calls the murderer of an elected president of Israel a hero...
Israeli presidents are not elected, and none has ever been murdered. You're off your rocker.

[Mediocrates]

Actually this means I have a higher esteem of Israel compared to the Ukrain. Israel is more democratic, less corrupted, more affluent, it has an independant justice, etc. BUT if you compare Israel to Western Europe it lags behind in all those fields.
On one issue Ukrain really is better than Israel, it doesn't occupy neighbouring territories neither does it discriminate against a part of the population (yet).

no it doesn't it just mean you're racist and arbitrary. if you said that black people should be held to a higher standard than whites does that mean you value and honor them more? of course not, so sit down.

[takeo]

LOL. Unlike the French and Russian governments, ours doesn't practice it.

ROFLOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!



Another lie. Frence's anti-Zionism is a part of your government's policies, as is the general anti-Semitic rhetoric constantly coming from France. Who cares how many oven operator Jews are in your government?

oh my! The Jews in our country are "oven operators"? Now you're really loosing your mind to the point of no return. In France you could be prosecuted for such an insult.






Yes, it was fox, and CNN, and AFP, and a number of other media outlets. Bush made a compelling case

yep he did, he assured the entire world Iraq was a dangerous country full of WMD's even if the contrary was obvious to any human being with a minimal portion of brains... ever since whereever he shows his stupid face people are shouting and thinking "lier".


,
and your government resisted because they wanted to protect the oil the contracts.

haha, so the invasion of Iraq and the war which caused so much misery and destruction was purely a humanitarian gesture to free the poor Iraqi people? hahaha, I don't think you believe this yourself.




Now, get over it, your side has lost.

Do you have a television or do you read newspapers? do you live in a cave?
In Iraq the ayatollahs have taken over in the south and the resistance in the north and center. It certainly looks like YOUR side has lost.



The anti-Americanism fueled by your government is fading.

you are really crasy, anti-Americanism has never in history been so present all over the world and especially in Iraq. And it wasn't fueled by our government but by the decisions taken by YOUR government.


We have our problems, but at least we are not hypocrits like you to support genocide of thousands of people in Africa for decades.

this is history, we have condamned this ever since. The US still supports genocidal regimes AND conducts its very own genocide in Iraq. In Vietnam millions were killed as a result of massive bombings.




US didn't keep him in power. Russians elected him, and that's what kept him in power.

do you know that during the elections of 1996 in some regions like Dagestan 130% of the population voted for Yeltsin? What happened in Ukrain is peanuts in comparison to the elections of 1996...



I lived in Russia, but never was a Russian. I was always a Jew, and my motherland has always been Israel. And your comparison with anti-Semites, is just another example of provincial European simplicity. The difference is not in the goals, but in the reasoning. My concern is for my people, the Jews, and majority of those of them who are in Russia have no business being there. It is a hostile foreign country, where we are not welcome. I support Israel because it the motherland of my people, no matter where we may live.

perhaps Russian antisemitism made you such a harsh and radical person. But don't compare Russia to Western Europe please, there's a world of difference.


LOL, nice try. Chavez is anti-American, so I'm sure he "admitted" many things.

He's not anti-American, it's rather the Americans who are anti-Chavez because he doesn't act like a puppet...



Israeli presidents are not elected, and none has ever been murdered. You're off your rocker.

ok, I mean prime minister of course.
And yes he was indirectly elected by the israeli people. Who elects parliament?

[Mediocrates]

And yes he was indirectly elected by the israeli people. Who elects parliament?

We have a luncheon round table of the Special Cabal. Somel bagel some nosh, we pull some strings and there's your PM.

[takeo]

We have a luncheon round table of the Special Cabal. Somel bagel some nosh, we pull some strings and there's your PM.

I see that you have a high esteem of the Israeli democratic institutions...

[MGB8]

Takeo, by siding with Russia and Al-Jazeera's editorial board on the Ukraine issue, and by the arguments he has put forth about how Ukraine should do as Putin says if it knows what is good for it.... has shown us exactly how much he values democracy and liberalism.

You see, on this issue Takeo has sided with Mother Russia over his native France.

Why? I can only suppose that Takeo is first and foremost a communist, very possibly a Stalinist, unable to admit the failure of communism, the structural flaws of commumism, the loss of the Cold War and the failure of the revolution. Instead, he fights on in the cold war on this message board and certainly in other places, trapped by his own ideological constructs. Stalinism would explain his affinitiy for Saddam and other despots.

[KettleWhistle]

oh my! The Jews in our country are "oven operators"? Now you're really loosing your mind to the point of no return. In France you could be prosecuted for such an insult.
Are the anti-Israeli Jews anti-Semites are akin to oven operators? Yes they are. (And am I glad to be an American, and to be protected by the First Amendment!)


yep he did, he assured the entire world Iraq was a dangerous country full of WMD's even if the contrary was obvious to any human being with a minimal portion of brains... ever since whereever he shows his stupid face people are shouting and thinking "lier". haha, so the invasion of Iraq and the war which caused so much misery and destruction was purely a humanitarian gesture to free the poor Iraqi people? hahaha, I don't think you believe this yourself.
The above is another example of the fine European provincialism.

Here is one good answer on subject (courtesy of Mediocrates): http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=123551&postcount=29


this is history, we have condamned this ever since. The US still supports genocidal regimes AND conducts its very own genocide in Iraq.
U.S. actions in Iraq are not genocide. But your government's and Chinese support of Sudan in the U.N. is support of blatant genocide.


perhaps Russian antisemitism made you such a harsh and radical person. But don't compare Russia to Western Europe please, there's a world of difference.

Russian anti-Semitism has nothing to do with my support for Israel and support for Jews everywhere else. I encountered plenty of anti-Semitism, but I have also had many Russian, Ukranian, Byelorussian, Caucasian, and even Moldovan friends. That doesn't change who I am, or who Jews are, or the fact that we are not Russians, and most would be safer elsewhere. Heck, Lviv area in Western Ukraine is much safer than Kaliningrad Region of Russia.

[Mediocrates]

I see that you have a high esteem of the Israeli democratic institutions...

It's all a massive Jewspiracratic plot and we all have our role to play.

[takeo]

Takeo, by siding with Russia and Al-Jazeera's editorial board on the Ukraine issue, and by the arguments he has put forth about how Ukraine should do as Putin says if it knows what is good for it.... has shown us exactly how much he values democracy and liberalism.

You see, on this issue Takeo has sided with Mother Russia over his native France.

Why? I can only suppose that Takeo is first and foremost a communist, very possibly a Stalinist, unable to admit the failure of communism, the structural flaws of commumism, the loss of the Cold War and the failure of the revolution. Instead, he fights on in the cold war on this message board and certainly in other places, trapped by his own ideological constructs. Stalinism would explain his affinitiy for Saddam and other despots.

I'm a communist indeed, but not a stalinist. And yes I have sympathy for Russia, Evrey Russian culture, somehow I'm sad I lost my roots, I don't particularly like western mentality (because the difference between France and the US is much smaller than with Russia, and most Jews in France or the US are very much French and American). And yes I admire the Soviet-Union and wished it would have continued to exist (of course reforms were necessary, but not the collapse which was a disaster), as so many inhabitants of the former Soviet Union as well.
I think putin is trying to restore some aspects of the old Soviet-Union, and trying to combine it with the world as it is today. I support him, altough not all his decisions. Europe as well as the US have tried to weaken Russia during the Yeltsin-period and they pretty much succeeded. Gorbatchov was being cheated by Reagan (Russia disarmed, the us didn't). And in Kosovo both the EU and the US defied Russia and instead supported some islamic terrorists, it was a huge shock for most Russians, they could already imagine the same happening in Tchechnia. that's when even the yeltsin-regime started to change.
About the cold war, it mostly rages in the minds of Rumsfeld, Cheney and co. who prefere to attack old Russian allies and leftwing regimes instead of their real ennemies who have killed 1000's of people in New York. the same people who are in all seriousness claiming that "Cuba is a great threat to the US"...

I think Russia should rearm, defend its cause and its economy and start challenging the us as the us is challenging Russia, without stopping trade and economic cooperation. I think slowly that's what putin is doing right now, altough he made some mistakes (allowing American bases in Tadjikistan for example). Russia should also strenghten their ties with China, its natural ally in the new world and a potentially great business partner. I always tought the division between China and the SU was silly and contraproductive.

About Saddam he was a tyrant and made some heavy mistakes such as the invasion of Iran and Kouweit. But under his rule Iraq modernised, there was a division between religion and state. I think, despite all his downsides, Saddam was a better option for Iraq than the current situation. that's also what Iraq's religious minorities think, even the small jewish community and especially the christians! The regime was corrupted, but not nearly as corrupted as Mubarak's Egypt or Saoudi Arabia.

About democracy it was never on the mind of the US, they only used it as a propaganda tool to extend their influence, while actively supporting dictatorships and undermining democracies like in Latin America, asia or Southern Europe.

I think the SU should have democratised and the old leaders should have vanished. But I'm not 100% sure Russian, cIS and arab cultures are ready for democracy, which is often confused with weakness and anarchy. I think france has good intentions and truly supports democratisation, but they do not quite understand those societies.
I admire the politics of China, it should be an example for many third world countries. The US is very much afraid the Arab world will one day go trough the same route and they'll loose their influence.

[KettleWhistle]

I have to commend the above post by takeo, not just for showing us that a lunacy of this sort can come from a person who've lived in the West for some time, but mostly because it exposes a prevalent attitude among Russians on the issue. The defining characteristic of this type of logic is placing the blame for everything on somebody else. As in, the U.S. is the reason for the fall of the U.S.S.R., Reagan treaked Gorabachev, etc. If he wasn't of Jewish descent, takeo would've likely told us about the fall of Soviet Union being a CIA-Zionist conspiracy.

As a truly fascinating and in-depth reading on the subject, I highly reccomend "A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia," by Alexander N. Yakovlev (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=a11eLxWAI7&isbn=0300103220&itm=2), Soviet Union's most vocal reformer. He has several other books, but as far as I know this is the only one that has been translated into English. And here is one quote from Mr. Yakovlev that pretty much defines takeo's attitude:

"What was perestroika? Several answers are commonly given in my country these days. One answer is that perestroika was a conspiracy organized by the CIA, and by the West in general, a conspiracy which aimed at military/political subversion of the USSR and of communism in general. A conspiracy with very active participation by world Zionism and a conspiracy which was 100 percent successful. Going somewhat ahead of what I am about to say, I should mention that this sort of explanation stems from understanding the world as being bipolar with respect to the past, but this approach also projects this bipolar vision of the world into the future. The rightist leaders back in my country state openly that they are about to take revenge by force for what has happened, and it is going to be a revenge both within the country and outside of it."

[takeo]

I have to commend the above post by takeo, not just for showing us that a lunacy of this sort can come from a person who've lived in the West for some time, but mostly because it exposes a prevalent attitude among Russians on the issue. The defining characteristic of this type of logic is placing the blame for everything on somebody else. As in, the U.S. is the reason for the fall of the U.S.S.R., Reagan treaked Gorabachev, etc. If he wasn't of Jewish descent, takeo would've likely told us about the fall of Soviet Union being a CIA-Zionist conspiracy.

As a truly fascinating and in-depth reading on the subject, that I highly reccomend, is "A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia," a book by Alexander N. Yakovlev (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=a11eLxWAI7&isbn=0300103220&itm=2), Soviet Union's most vocal reformer. He has several other books, but as far as I know this is the only one that has been translated into English. And here is one quote from Mr. Yakovlev that pretty much defines takeo's attitude:

"What was perestroika? Several answers are commonly given in my country these days. One answer is that perestroika was a conspiracy organized by the CIA, and by the West in general, a conspiracy which aimed at military/political subversion of the USSR and of communism in general. A conspiracy with very active participation by world Zionism and a conspiracy which was 100 percent successful. Going somewhat ahead of what I am about to say, I should mention that this sort of explanation stems from understanding the world as being bipolar with respect to the past, but this approach also projects this bipolar vision of the world into the future. The rightist leaders back in my country state openly that they are about to take revenge by force for what has happened, and it is going to be a revenge both within the country and outside of it."

Yakovlev should shut up, what has this man ever achieved, how do Russians think about him?
But indeed, he's right Russians like to blame foreigners for everything going wrong in their country. I don't, I think the Soviet Union implosion happened because the people who ruled Russia since the 70's were corrupted bureaucrats with little vision and even less revolutionary spirit. It are the same people who sold Russia (as well as Azerbaidjan, etc.) to the West and still rule so many former Soviet republics. They just changed sides but the same people remained (cfr. Shevarnadze, Aliev, Nazarbayev, ...) . that's what killed the Soviet-Union and plunched it in a deep crisis of which they are only beginning to emerge. But of course the West and the us mostly took advantage of this weakness.
Indeed some Russians believe in a zionist plot and this idea is even very widespread in the CPRF unfortunately. It stems from the reality that many tycoons and oligarchs which were stealing under the benevolent eye of the yeltsin family, were jewish. But there are also many Russian Jews who have always opposed the yeltsin regime, so clearly this theory is a new version of the oldfasioned anti-semitic tradition in Russia. (which btw is very alife among rightwing nationalists such as Zirinovsky, this is the part of Russia I don't like)
However even hardcore nationalists and antisemites will still not ignore you and threat you as a guest, but you never know wether or not they mean it.

[takeo]

Are the anti-Israeli Jews anti-Semites are akin to oven operators? Yes they are.

to you anyone who doesn't support murder and genocide is an over operator, I'm sure you consider Rabin to be an overoperator as well...




(And am I glad to be an American, and to be protected by the First Amendment!)

So are the KKK and the neo-nazi's. Total free speech is total. in the US it would be impossible to ban the Hesbollah newschannel, would it?


U.S. actions in Iraq are not genocide. But your government's and Chinese support of Sudan in the U.N. is support of blatant genocide.

who says there is a genocide going on in Sudan, apart from the us-government? millions of congolese have died as a result of Ruandan occupation, Ruanda is a close us-ally... of course the fact that Sudan is a country with petrol reserves is only a pure coincidence... all that's for sure is that two armed factions are struggling in this province of Sudan with the population in between. In Iraq however there is enough evidence that the us murdered many civilians in Falluja.





Russian anti-Semitism has nothing to do with my support for Israel and support for Jews everywhere else. I encountered plenty of anti-Semitism, but I have also had many Russian, Ukranian, Byelorussian, Caucasian, and even Moldovan friends. That doesn't change who I am, or who Jews are, or the fact that we are not Russians, and most would be safer elsewhere. Heck, Lviv area in Western Ukraine is much safer than Kaliningrad Region of Russia.

Is Kaliningrad unsafe? I've never been there unfortunately. What I know for sure is that Georgia is much safer than Russia, whatever the clichés about the reputation of the Grouzians...
So in fact, if you want to live in a Jewish country, why did you move to the us and not to israel??????
yes you're right being Jewish in Russia is still somehow a problem, but I don't think mass migration will solve the question. (and some are even returning, there was a thread about this last week)

[KettleWhistle]

to you anyone who doesn't support murder and genocide is an over operator, I'm sure you consider Rabin to be an overoperator as well...
who says there is a genocide going on in Sudan, apart from the us-government? millions of congolese have died as a result of Ruandan occupation, Ruanda is a close us-ally... of course the fact that Sudan is a country with petrol reserves is only a pure coincidence... all that's for sure is that two armed factions are struggling in this province of Sudan with the population in between.
I don't support murder and genocide, but you do. You advocate murder of Jews in Israel, deny the ongoing genocide in Africa, and sympathise with our enemies. Not to mention that you have been shown to be a racist. But what else new?


So are the KKK and the neo-nazi's. Total free speech is total. in the US it would be impossible to ban the Hesbollah newschannel, would it? Yes, and isn't it great how despite the "total" free speach majority of our population doesn't embrace these ideas? Isn't it wonderful how anti-semites like you, who hate any Jew that would stand up him/herself and support Israel, don't get their time of the day in most places? And isn't it just awesome how we call Hezbollah what it is, that being a terrorist organization, and nobody would even consider letting them broadcast their programs in the first place?


Is Kaliningrad unsafe? I've never been there unfortunately.Unfortunately, indeed. I suggest that you go there to check it out. There is an abundance of skinhead/neonazi movements that share pretty mucn all of you views about Russian glory, America, Israel, Jews, appropriate methods to subjugate and russify neighboring nations, and many other issues that you presented to us here.



What I know for sure is that Georgia is much safer than Russia, whatever the clichés about the reputation of the Grouzians...
Reputation of Georgians??? Why don't you tell us, so we can all see what kind of stereotyping racist you really are.

[takeo]

I don't support murder and genocide, but you do.

I don't, you have proposed massive etnic cleansing of millions of people, I didn't


You advocate murder of Jews in Israel

I never did, you do, you want to murder your political opponents as your hero did, equally Jews.

,
deny the ongoing genocide in Africa

what sources do you have that prove there's a genocide going on? George bush jr.?




,
and sympathise with our enemies.

The ennemies of the us? Yes I do, and many people do as long as the us doesn't learn to stop interphering everywhere.




Not to mention that you have been shown to be a racist.

he, I didn't call an entire nation "terrorists", you did...



But what else new?

when will you volunteer to kill the israeli prime minister in a suicide mission?


Yes, and isn't it great how despite the "total" free speach majority of our population doesn't embrace these ideas?

perhaps not these but a lot of other scary ideas, such as the denial of the evolution theory teached in some American schools.
And there are a lot of American neo-nazi's as well



Isn't it wonderful how anti-semites like you, who hate any Jew that would stand up him/herself and support Israel, don't get their time of the day in most places?

I'm not an anti-semite, you're a lier.



And isn't it just awesome how we call Hezbollah what it is, that being a terrorist organization, and nobody would even consider letting them broadcast their programs in the first place?

so neo-nazi's can walk around with pictures of Hitler and swastika's but Hesbollah-newschannel is banned?


Unfortunately, indeed. I suggest that you go there to check it out. There is an abundance of skinhead/neonazi movements that share pretty mucn all of you views about Russian glory, America, Israel, Jews, appropriate methods to subjugate and russify neighboring nations, and many other issues that you presented to us here.

you are out of your mind really, I have as much affinity with neo-nazi's as you have with Chomsky...



Reputation of Georgians??? Why don't you tell us, so we can all see what kind of stereotyping racist you really are.

well, their reputation is that they are maffia and dangerous, but they are the kindest and most generous people I have ever met. So I'm quite sure you ARE NOT a Georgian. you are a typical American new rich a**h*le who look down on the rest of the world because they have money, not realising that money can't buy you style, culture and decensy...

[KettleWhistle]

I don't support murder and genocide, but you do. I don't, you have proposed massive etnic cleansing of millions of people, I didn'tA lil' daft, ayn't ya? Let me repeat: I don't support murder and genocide.


what sources do you have that prove there's a genocide going on? George bush jr.? I suppose numerous news reports, TV programs, the very fact that it's debated in the U.N. isn't enough? Several issues of U.S. News and World Report, a very reputable weekly journal, had extensive articles on the subject, including pictures, case studies, and politicial analysis. But, of course, if Elf-Fina stands to gain some business, there's no point to stop mass murder of thousands of people, right?


he, I didn't call an entire nation "terrorists", you did...Liar.


you are out of your mind really, I have as much affinity with neo-nazi's as you have with Chomsky... Well, you should reconsider you affinities because your ideologies are a perfect match. Except for your masking of anti-Semitism by pretending that hatred of Israel isn't anti-Semitic, your rhetoric is word-for-word like that of Pamyat and a number of similar groups. So don't be shy, you're missing a chance to make some friends.


well, their reputation is that they are maffia and dangerous, but they are the kindest and most generous people I have ever met. So I'm quite sure you ARE NOT a Georgian. you are a typical American who look down on the rest of the world because they have money, not realising that money can't buy you style, culture and decensy...So that's what their reputaion is... funny, I never heard of that. Usually the first thing that comes to mind when I hear of Georgians are several reknowned cinematographers. But it's funny how a Frenchman would would stereotype Americans as lacking in culture and decency... just about as funny as you not knowing how to spell "decency." And I also wonder, when Lance Armstrong got spat on for being an American, was it a matter of style, culture, decency, or perphaps all of the above?

[takeo]

A lil' daft, ayn't ya? Let me repeat: I don't support murder and genocide.

ok, so tell me how you're going to solve the "Palestinian problem"............ and what you'll do if Palestinians refuse to cooperate...




I suppose numerous news reports, TV programs, the very fact that it's debated in the U.N. isn't enough?

Israel is ALSO debated in the UN, you called it a kangoroo court


Several issues of U.S. News and World Report, a very reputable weekly journal, had extensive articles on the subject, including pictures, case studies, and politicial analysis.

can you pass them trough? I just saw a bbc-documentory were it is confirmed there are rapes and killings going on, but on both sides, and not much worse than what is happening in several other conflicts all over Africa.





But, of course, if Elf-Fina stands to gain some business, there's no point to stop mass murder of thousands of people, right?

I think texaco is interested as well and asked their fellow in the white house to hurry up...



Well, you should reconsider you affinities because your ideologies are a perfect match. Except for your masking of anti-Semitism by pretending that hatred of Israel isn't anti-Semitic, your rhetoric is word-for-word like that of Pamyat and a number of similar groups. So don't be shy, you're missing a chance to make some friends.

this is completely BS, I don't support an etnic clean Russia.



So that's what their reputaion is... funny, I never heard of that.

are you kidding or what?


Usually the first thing that comes to mind when I hear of Georgians are several reknowned cinematographers.

that as well


But it's funny how a Frenchman would would stereotype Americans as lacking in culture and decency... just about as funny as you not knowing how to spell "decency."

Well perhaps we can continue in French if my English isn't good enough...




And I also wonder, when Lance Armstrong got spat on for being an American, was it a matter of style, culture, decency, or perphaps all of the above?

anyhow everything is more decent than a bunch of fat loud obviously drunk American tourists in hawaian shirts in Tijuana or Cancun...
But I still prefere those over the frustrated immigrants who live in their boring suburbian villa of 1000 in a row and looking like "I made it" "I'm the king", shopping in the nearest mall (one of 1000 in a row) with his very expensive looking wife as most important distraction.

I'm not saying French are the nirvana of decency or style, but at least life in France is a bit more natural, a bit less stressed out and subtle.

[MGB8]

The US does not have total free speech. Its pretty close, you can have KKK rallies through Skokie, but nothing is absolute.

The whole point of government, as per Locke, was individuals giving up part of their freedom of action in order to achieve a better common good. The question, of course, is at what point do you give up so much that it is not a better common good, just either more order, or more good for those in control of the government. Hence the concept of Liberty and "rights."

There is no such thing as a "right", beyond the rhetoric, theoretical and legal (artificial). There is only freedom of action and the consequences that result (due to the freedom of actions of others). The State imposes more consequences to make other actions have fewer consequences and impose a more civil society....but the concept of liberty/rights is to limit the State's jurisdiction on what it can impose consequences on, and what consequences it can impose.

The reason I put in this theoretical tangent is it seems that Communists and modern day far-lefties lack an understanding of what these terms and constructs mean and are.

[Mediocrates]

You're arguing with someone who thinks South Park is a documentary.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11601497^13762,00.html


Of course you're wondering what kind of wilderness is it when you can call up the local fire department to rescue you from a combination bio break hunting tragedy.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

And yes I admire the Soviet-Union and wished it would have continued to exist (of course reforms were necessary, but not the collapse which was a disaster), as so many inhabitants of the former Soviet Union as well.

:) Funny.


I think putin is trying to restore some aspects of the old Soviet-Union, and trying to combine it with the world as it is today. I support him, altough not all his decisions.

Putin is not about restoring the USSR.

[takeo]

The US does not have total free speech. Its pretty close, you can have KKK rallies through Skokie, but nothing is absolute.

The whole point of government, as per Locke, was individuals giving up part of their freedom of action in order to achieve a better common good. The question, of course, is at what point do you give up so much that it is not a better common good, just either more order, or more good for those in control of the government. Hence the concept of Liberty and "rights."

There is no such thing as a "right", beyond the rhetoric, theoretical and legal (artificial). There is only freedom of action and the consequences that result (due to the freedom of actions of others). The State imposes more consequences to make other actions have fewer consequences and impose a more civil society....but the concept of liberty/rights is to limit the State's jurisdiction on what it can impose consequences on, and what consequences it can impose.

The reason I put in this theoretical tangent is it seems that Communists and modern day far-lefties lack an understanding of what these terms and constructs mean and are.

actually all Europeans, since we have another idea about "freedom of expression". We don't believe in absolute freedom if it's harming society and the right of others. that's why we recently banned the hesbollah newschannel, why we prosecute anti-semitism, genocide denial and neo-nazi's, while all this is perfectly legal in the us (and French neo-nazi's use US-websites to spread their hatred anonymous).

[takeo]

Putin is not about restoring the USSR.

He restored some Soviet symbols (like the national anthem), cooperation with other ex-Soviet republics and the government institutions of Russia. But of course he doesn't literally want to restore the Soviet-Union, but his policy restored some of the institutions and policy of the former soviet-Union.

[Illuminatus]

Thank you takeo (and Old Europeans everywhere).

There are many reasons why Communism and the Berlin Wall fell, why
Milosevic and Saddam Hussein today sit in prison - why individual liberty
and capitalism have triumph - why Israel remains standing and stronger
than ever. Why the Chinese have embraced Deng Xiaoping's admonition:
'To be rich is glorious'. Why the Persian Gulf and Afghan economies are
seeing record GDP growth.

The Old European vs the New European isn't some list of countries divided
by region - The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and Britain were never in the
"East" and yet they saw a Saddam who invaded Kuwait - a sovereign member
of the US, was forcibly expelled, then refused to prove disarmament to the
UN inspectors which was a condition to the cease fire. Saddam then went
on to made a mockery of the ideals of the UN and the 19 UN Security Council
resolutions.

It was the New Europe that contributed to the "coalition of the willing" and
liberated Iraq and region of a mass murderer.

● takeo writes in post # 79 that:
[.. the current situation in Iraq has been entirely created by Bush and his
administration ..]

forgetting, that it was Saddam Hussein who invaded Kuwait in 1990 and
declared it to be it's "19th Province" - the current situation in Iraq - is Iraq's
Liberation from another of one of takeo's contractions.

Old Europe is a failed ideology that believes that appeasement to despots and
dictators will bring it peace. It is a New Europe that refuses to be enslaved
and the hopes, dreams and talents of the individual wins over socialism.

A couple of more Contradictions --

1) takeo abandons The Workers Paradise of the Soviet Union to work in? The
West. While 100,000 US troops and the Atlantic and 6th US Naval Fleets and
22,000 British troops remain on the EuroLand mass -- ensuring some
semblance of stability in a region historically racked by endless wars.

Never mind that American businesses are Europe's largest investor which
provides guess what? --- jobs. When Old Europe finally institutes its long
delayed structural reforms of its economy - even takeo will truly enjoy the
fruits of Capitalism.

2) Gloating over the deaths 1,300 US service men (the "positive side"), while
conveniently forgetting that 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in
Chechnya.

We see that Communists like takeo can't grieve with the mothers, fathers and
friends of these 15,000 Russian men and boys. No wonder they lost power
as Soviets.

------

Without the inherent contractions within Communism/Ba'ath Party/Old Europe,
there would be no Cold-War triumph, the Berlin Wall would still be up, and
Milosivic & Saddam would still be in power and terrorizing innocents.

The Ukraine simply represents the finality of the end of Old Europe and
The Losing Left.

Thank you for being on the wrong side of history, may you never change takeo : )

[takeo]

why individual liberty
and capitalism have triumph

individual liberty? you don't know about the world. more than half of the world is leaded by dictatorships, most of them good friends of Bush. Many members of the "coalition of the willing" are dictatorships themselves. And I don't think the inhabitants of Falluja think that individual liberty and justice has triumphed, their country occupied and destroyed by a foreign power.
The problem with Saddam and milosevic (a leader who resisted islamic terrorists) was that they didn't fit in the us geo-political policy, designed to rule the world according to American principles. but iraq once again showed that the "new world order" the Americans want does not exist and is not accepted by the majority of the nations. A superpower couldn't even restore order and wealth in a country full of oil, in Iraq they proved their inpotence, faced with popular resistance. 1300 Americans have died in Iraq, the highest number since Vietnam. for once the victims weren't only ordinary people who got killed by us-bombs...






-
why Israel remains standing and stronger
than ever.

so all the rumours about a serious economic crisis are lies?


Why the Chinese have embraced Deng Xiaoping's admonition:
'To be rich is glorious'.

Deng Xiaoping was a brilliant leader who pushed his country forwards and the us still regrets the Tien An Men-contrarevolution failed.





The Old European vs the New European isn't some list of countries divided
by region - The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and Britain were never in the
"East" and yet they saw a Saddam who invaded Kuwait - a sovereign member
of the US, was forcibly expelled, then refused to prove disarmament to the
UN inspectors which was a condition to the cease fire. Saddam then went
on to made a mockery of the ideals of the UN and the 19 UN Security Council
resolutions.

saddam accepted each and every un-resolution. The US said he didn't and didn't want the un-inspectors to continue their work in Iraq, instead they told everyone a lot of lies, lies who were later exposed.





It was the New Europe that contributed to the "coalition of the willing" and
liberated Iraq and region of a mass murderer.

the new Europe is becoming smaller everyday. Spain withdrew, poland, Hungary and holland will soon. What remains are some dubious Eastern European regimes and a fascist government in Italy. New Europe... my !




forgetting, that it was Saddam Hussein who invaded Kuwait in 1990 and
declared it to be it's "19th Province" -

this was 13 years ago... since 13 years Kuweit was liberated.




the current situation in Iraq - is Iraq's
Liberation from another of one of takeo's contractions.

liberation? I'm sure the inhabitants of Abu Greib, falluja as well as the relatives of the 100000+ victims think very different, so do the followers of Al-Sadr... so do 99% of the Arab world...




Old Europe is a failed ideology that believes that appeasement to despots and
dictators will bring it peace.

Europe is appeasing despots? Are you sick in your mind? Mubarak, the saoudi princes, the medieval regimes of the persian gulf, the jordan king, all of those despots are on your payroll, your hypocrisy and lies are sickening.we believe however that invading countries and killing people for no reason is wrong, and the situation in iraq today proves we were right and Bush was a big lier. The arab people are behind Europe, the us is the most hated country in the Arab world, even more than israel I think. if there will ever be democracy in the Arab world you'll loose all your allies, and you know it, that's why you continue to support corrupted dictatorships.





It is a New Europe that refuses to be enslaved
and the hopes, dreams and talents of the individual wins over socialism.

oh really? you know that both poland, Hungary and GB are ruled by socialists, France is NOT.......... you are so full of sh**



A couple of more Contradictions --

you seem to be one contradiction



1) takeo abandons The Workers Paradise of the Soviet Union to work in? The
West.

I was born in France...


While 100,000 US troops and the Atlantic and 6th US Naval Fleets and
22,000 British troops remain on the EuroLand mass -- ensuring some
semblance of stability in a region historically racked by endless wars.

we want them out as soon as possible.


Never mind that American businesses are Europe's largest investor which
provides guess what? --- jobs. When Old Europe finally institutes its long
delayed structural reforms of its economy - even takeo will truly enjoy the
fruits of Capitalism.

today Europe doesn't need the us no more, we will have economic relations in the benefit of both, but that's it.



2) Gloating over the deaths 1,300 US service men (the "positive side"),

shouldn't have invaded Iraq, we warned you not to do so... whenever you play with fire you get burned...



while
conveniently forgetting that 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in
Chechnya.

Russia is fighting against islamic terrorists attacking Russia, us is fighting against people who just want to defend their own country against foreign aggressors.




We see that Communists like takeo can't grieve with the mothers, fathers and
friends of these 15,000 Russian men and boys. No wonder they lost power
as Soviets.

Russians don't blame putin they blame the chechens.
The war against terrorism was necessary, the war against iraq was all but necessary, that's the big difference. But it doesn't look like you care much for the victims of Bush in Iraq.



------


Without the inherent contractions within Communism/Ba'ath Party/Old Europe,
there would be no Cold-War triumph, the Berlin Wall would still be up, and
Milosivic & Saddam would still be in power and terrorizing innocents.

the contradictions in the us-policy let to 11th september and the rise of islamic fundamentalism.




The Ukraine simply represents the finality of the end of Old Europe and

we'll see, you supported the old regime untill very recently and now you're supporting a civil war in Ukrain.



Thank you for being on the wrong side of history, may you never change takeo

let's see how history will evolve, what's sure already is that bush' WMD' speeches and lies will be mentioned in every history book. And according to most people in the world, yOU are on the wrong side, supporting capitalist exploitation of the third world and all kind of dictatorships.

[Illuminatus]

Putin offers Ukraine support for "any leader" (http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5386825)

Putin and the Kremlin generals have seen "the light" and reason.
They are not in a position to pull a Tiananmen Square massacre.

Poor Vladimir. This time, the Ukraine isn't asking for "fraternal
assistance from our cherished Warsaw Pact brothers against the
counter-revolution".

In the old days (the good old days for Old Europe) the Red Army
would have come rolling into Kiev to "end" the uprising.

....support for "any leader"?

Putin got busted fixing this election and is backpedaling as fast
as he can to cover his @ss.

heh heh heh...... well done Putin.

----

In other news,

Britain's Independent revealed today plans by the current Ukrainian
government to stage a terror attack and blame it on the opposition party.

'Opposition was to be smeared with terror attack' (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=590117)

Yanukovych's backers fear the prospect of losing to Western-backed
Yushchenko and are prepared to plunge the country into economic chaos.

This shouldn't come to no surprise.

The report also said supporters of Yanukovych and outgoing President
L. Kuchma are also playing on fears that inflation will wipe out
people's savings as it did after the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

Meanwhile: things sure don't look good for The Axis of Weasels

Kofi Anan - top Weasel - and more calls for him to resign (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=6e57a820-683c-4853-baaa-3787d7612019)

And yes Putin has 'lost' the Ukraine (http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041203-054135-3513r.htm)

German Economy Sputters as VW, Siemens Invest Abroad (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aPJbOGzfuS0M&refer=home)

Growth in France has virtually stalled, at just 0.1 per cent. (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8210-1390230,00.html)

Spain: The Weasel's newest member - growth trend falls short of target (http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1758183-6078-0,00.html)

Another bad day indeed. Now if the the $dollar will drops
another 10 cents this week - make that another bad week
for our Axis of Weasels : )

[KettleWhistle]

Poor Vladimir. This time, the Ukraine isn't asking for "fraternal
assistance from our cherished Warsaw Pact brothers against the
counter-revolution".

In the old days (the good old days for Old Europe) the Red Army
would have come rolling into Kiev to "end" the uprising.

Yep, but according to takeo, Ukies should be welcoming another Holodomor in the name of Russia's "glory."

[takeo]

Putin offers Ukraine support for "any leader" (http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5386825)

Putin and the Kremlin generals have seen "the light" and reason.
They are not in a position to pull a Tiananmen Square massacre.

Poor Vladimir. This time, the Ukraine isn't asking for "fraternal
assistance from our cherished Warsaw Pact brothers against the
counter-revolution".

In the old days (the good old days for Old Europe) the Red Army
would have come rolling into Kiev to "end" the uprising.

....support for "any leader"?

Putin got busted fixing this election and is backpedaling as fast
as he can to cover his @ss.

heh heh heh...... well done Putin.

----

In other news,

Britain's Independent revealed today plans by the current Ukrainian
government to stage a terror attack and blame it on the opposition party.

'Opposition was to be smeared with terror attack' (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=590117)

Yanukovych's backers fear the prospect of losing to Western-backed
Yushchenko and are prepared to plunge the country into economic chaos.

This shouldn't come to no surprise.

The report also said supporters of Yanukovych and outgoing President
L. Kuchma are also playing on fears that inflation will wipe out
people's savings as it did after the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

Meanwhile: things sure don't look good for The Axis of Weasels

Kofi Anan - top Weasel - and more calls for him to resign (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=6e57a820-683c-4853-baaa-3787d7612019)

And yes Putin has 'lost' the Ukraine (http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041203-054135-3513r.htm)

German Economy Sputters as VW, Siemens Invest Abroad (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aPJbOGzfuS0M&refer=home)

Growth in France has virtually stalled, at just 0.1 per cent. (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8210-1390230,00.html)

Spain: The Weasel's newest member - growth trend falls short of target (http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1758183-6078-0,00.html)

Another bad day indeed. Now if the the $dollar will drops
another 10 cents this week - make that another bad week
for our Axis of Weasels : )

I love low dollars, it makes my smuggled marlboro's even cheaper. :)
Now about Putin, he's smart enough to bet on different horses now that the outcome is uncertain. even if Iuchenko wins, he'll be forced to make deals with Russia as well. When Russia cuts cheap gas and petrol import the Ukrain will literally starve and freeze to death. When Russia closes the border half of Ukrains industry and mines will have to close, when Russia supports an eastern separatism in Donetsk, Ukrain will be facing civil war and loose territory. Georgia tried it already in the 90's, and look how Georgia fared during the 90's... even Sakashvili has quickly changed his position and is now more friendly to Russia than Shevarnadze, he already more or less admitted South-Ossetian adherence to Russia. So Putin doesn't have to send in the red army, he has a lot of other means at his disposal to bring Ukrain back on the right track.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:

I love low dollars, it makes my smuggled marlboro's even cheaper.

Low dollar is not really good for your economy.


Now about Putin, he's smart enough to bet on different horses now that the outcome is uncertain. even if Iuchenko wins, he'll be forced to make deals with Russia as well. When Russia cuts cheap gas and petrol import the Ukrain will literally starve and freeze to death. When Russia closes the border half of Ukrains industry and mines will have to close, when Russia supports an eastern separatism in Donetsk, Ukrain will be facing civil war and loose territory.


Russia will never do whatever you said above.


Georgia tried it already in the 90's, and look how Georgia fared during the 90's... even Sakashvili has quickly changed his position and is now more friendly to Russia than Shevarnadze, he already more or less admitted South-Ossetian adherence to Russia. So Putin doesn't have to send in the red army, he has a lot of other means at his disposal to bring Ukrain back on the right track.

The real lesson for Ukraine during the ordeal is the lesson of DEMOCRACY IN ACTION. No matter from which camp people came out on the streets.... people lobbied!!!! People participated!!!! It was simply amazing. This is what Democracy and Freedom is all about. Ukraine showed itself to be a NATION - a Democratic and peaceful nation in the face of a political instability and political changes. The world will be a better place for it.

[MGB8]

Notice how Takeo relishes in what he believes is Russia's power to cause thousands, maybe millions of Ukrainians to "starve or freeze to death." And yet the pretense of standing for something moral....

Meanwhile, the same man tells us Israel wasn't in danger in 1967 (militarily) with the blockade of its oil port. But Russia can kill tens of thousands on command because Ukraine couldn't get alternative energy, doesn't have its own supply of energy (wait a minute), and energy isn't a freely traded commodity....hmmm....

Another one exposed.

[Illuminatus]

● takeo reveals:
"I love low dollars, it makes my smuggled marlboro's even cheaper."

OMG! You mean to tell me you're not paying taxes on these "smuggled marlboro's"?

I'm shocked - absolutely shocked that you, a Socialist, would avoid paying
taxes to France!?!?!

Granted, France does have one of the highest tax rates in the industrial world
and that's not including all the extra fees and added value sales taxes.
Still, takeo do you realize what happens when you engage in such criminal
activity? Do you realize that glory of France suffers when you avoid paying
taxes? What about your "Workers Paradise" ?

Some poor French entitlement or social program will gets less money.
And you! Of all people are avoiding paying for the same social programs
you vote for. I'm shocked (no really)....

True, France is a morally sick nation. In the 2002 elections Le Pen received
more votes than the Socialists - which forced Socialists for vote for Chirac
(and I like Chirac btw) -- All Le Pen wants to do is "purity the French" -
Like Italy, avoid paying taxes is a national sport isn't it.

------

On the subject of US troops in Europe - you did say in post #110:
"we want them out as soon as possible." : )

First of all the US troops are on bases in 14 NATO countries - "we" ?
You mean yourself and France. Germany, Holland, Italy, Britain and
New Europe are free to speak for themselves. They are also free to ask
the US to leave at anytime and at a moments notice and.... off we go.

But why haven't they?

Second of all France, afraid of the Soviet tank divisions during the Cold-War
quit the military wing of NATO in order to receive better surrender terms
from the truimphant Warsaw Pact armies....should they cross the Elbe River.

So there's not much France can say about US troops in Europe is there?

The main purpose of US troops in Europe is to provide Europeans with
"Adult Supervision". History, (in fact recent history) has shown the
world that Europe is incapable of the basic rudiments of civilized behavior.
Constant wars, mutual slaughter and invasions required the need for some
sort of Adult Supervision.

As parent, I can tell you the importance of an adult being present everytime
children get into a fight. Perhaps another two generations and Europe might
learn to grow up - but as the world learned with Bosnia & Kosovo just 5 years
ago, Europe still has a few decades to go. The US military will leave when the
EuroArmy is mature enough to manage (peaceably) it's own conflicts.

Other reasons are rather minor - such as forward bases for theaters of
operations or to protect our Euro investments.

Don't get me wrong, the tank and infantry divisions we currently have in
Germany are part of a long outdated military doctrine. Rumsfeld has informed
Germany they they will be pulled out and replaced with modern and smaller
units probably based in Romania and Bulgaria - Ramstein AFB in Germany and
Aviano AFB in Italy will stay -- and close by in order to defend Europe
....against itself.

ps
- takeo, do the right thing, report and pay your cigarette taxes.

[Mediocrates]

I kind of don't care. Initially it was interesting to see some people fight what was otherwise expected to be an election of the usual suspects with or without voter participation. Now at least it's just another semi failed corrupt state splashing around on the abattoir floor. Oh well. Slap a "Free Democratic People's Republic of .......istan" on it and put it on the shelf. Another glorious success our betters in Europe and the Arab world can point to.

[KettleWhistle]

Analysts: Putin Has Squandered Influence
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041207/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue

By DAVID McHUGH, Associated Press Writer
MOSCOW - Russian President Vladimir Putin (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vladimir%20Putin%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Vladimir%20Putin)) has dented his prestige and squandered influence by backing the wrong side in political clashes in Ukraine and in the breakaway Georgian province of Abkhazia, analysts say.

Putin tried to put the best face on things in his comments Monday on the Ukrainian Supreme Court's decision to annul the victory of Kremlin-backed presidential candidate Viktor Yanukovych.

He sternly warned foreign countries not to interfere in the revote — scheduled for Dec. 26 against opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko — and said Russia would work with whoever won.

"Of course we will ... accept the will of any nation in the former Soviet space, and will work with any elected leader," Putin said.

That couldn't hide an embarrassing — and largely self-inflicted — defeat for Putin, who appeared at Yanukovych's side during the campaign and only last week mocked the idea of a new presidential runoff.

The events have frayed his carefully tended relationships with the European Union (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22European%20Union%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=European%20Union)) and the United States, both of which refused to recognize the election and pointed to evidence of widespread fraud — after Putin had congratulated Yanukovych.

Closer to home, it showed Russia as ineffectual in dealings with other former members of the Soviet Union, where it seeks a dominant role. The Ukraine debacle came amid a fumbled attempt to push its own candidate for president of the breakaway region of Abkhazia in Georgia.

And it follows last year's revolution in Georgia, where Russia couldn't stop reformer Mikhail Saakashvili — who wants to move closer to the West — from winning power amid protest over fraudulent elections there.

"Putin should understand this isn't the Soviet Union," said Vafa Guluzade, a former government foreign policy adviser in Azerbaijan. "The time for appointing Russian marionettes is over."

Factors in Putin's gaffes appear to be Soviet-era habits of thinking, forged during his earlier career as a KGB intelligence officer, as well as reliance on a narrow Kremlin circle of advisers, analysts said.

In the case of Ukraine, he made the miscalculation that President Bush (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22President%20Bush%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=President%20Bush)), who has forged a working relationship with Putin in the war on terrorism, would not get in his way, said Dmitry Trenin, an expert on U.S.-Russian relations at the Moscow Carnegie Center.

"I think Putin had hope, right until the last, that he could reach agreement with Bush over Ukraine, and these hopes have dissipated in the past week," Trenin said.

Over the years, Bush has toned down criticism of Russia's campaign against separatist rebels in Chechnya (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Chechnya%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Chechnya)), and Putin has acquiesced to U.S. troops being stationed in Central Asia, close to Moscow.

But Western concern over vote fraud in Ukraine, a former Soviet republic of 48 million people, ruled out a similar tacit deal. Both the United States and the EU have made free and fair elections a top priority in their foreign policies.

The criticism of Russia's stance has prompted a string of angry comments directed at Western governments from Putin in the past several days. On Tuesday, he expressed doubt about how Iraq (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Iraq)) could hold elections Jan. 30 — a date the Bush administration has said remains firm.

"Honestly speaking, I cannot imagine how it is possible to organize elections under the conditions of occupation by foreign forces," Putin said in televised comments during a Kremlin meeting with interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

For Yevgeny Volk, a political analyst at the Heritage Foundation in Moscow, Putin's behavior reflects his past as a KGB agent.

"Could Putin behave any other way? My answer is no," said Volk. The Ukraine involvement "was a logical continuation of Russian imperial politics and a very consistent implementation of Putin's mentality."

Putin remains overly focused on a friend-or-foe outlook from the Cold War, Volk said, and on finding local leaders whose strings he can pull.

Trenin said one flaw in Putin's decision-making was relying only on a narrow circle of advisers in the Kremlin, to the exclusion of the Foreign Ministry and outside experts.

The result is "a colossal concentration of foreign policy decisions in the hands and the heads of only a few people, who rely only on government channels of information and analysis," Trenin said.

A more nuanced approach would have worked better: "Putin should have invited Yushchenko for tea to" his residence outside Moscow, Trenin said.

That would have put Putin — and Russia — on the winning side no matter the outcome.

"They should have played a sophisticated game. In this case simplicity did not help," said Trenin.

[KettleWhistle]

Like MGB8, I too noticed that takeo cares a lot more about Russian influence than about people who live in countries neighboring Russia. A good thing for Ukranians, though, is that ulike Georgia, theirs is a huge country, and they have plenty of natural resources. Coal is a very big industry there. Sure Russia can hurt them, but closure of the border, or any other activities that takeo boasts they could engage in to hurt Ukraine, will hurt them as well. Which is why it will never happen. Most likely, the Russians will just have to come to terms with the fact that Ukraine will be ruled by Ukranians, and not by them.

[takeo]

I love low dollars, it makes my smuggled marlboro's even cheaper.


Low dollar is not really good for your economy.

depends, good for importers bad for exporters.



Russia will never do whatever you said above.

depends which course Ukrain will follow.


The real lesson for Ukraine during the ordeal is the lesson of DEMOCRACY IN ACTION. No matter from which camp people came out on the streets.... people lobbied!!!! People participated!!!! It was simply amazing. This is what Democracy and Freedom is all about. Ukraine showed itself to be a NATION - a Democratic and peaceful nation in the face of a political instability and political changes. The world will be a better place for it

I'm not so sure, only a part of Ukrain wants iuchenko and timoshenko, the other part of ukrain doesn't want them at all but has been less organised and had less militant organisations. Ukrain showed to be divided, and let's hope the future government, whatever it is, will try to find a compromise to satisfy both groups and both parts of the country.

[takeo]

Notice how Takeo relishes in what he believes is Russia's power to cause thousands, maybe millions of Ukrainians to "starve or freeze to death." And yet the pretense of standing for something moral....

Meanwhile, the same man tells us Israel wasn't in danger in 1967 (militarily) with the blockade of its oil port. But Russia can kill tens of thousands on command because Ukraine couldn't get alternative energy, doesn't have its own supply of energy (wait a minute), and energy isn't a freely traded commodity....hmmm....

Another one exposed.

what do you think the embargo of Iraq was other than "starve to death"?
let's also not forget that ukrain currently enjoys russian aid by having cheap subsidised oil. all Russia did (on the economic front) with Georgia was ending this supply of cheap subsidised oil, because Georgia didn't behave as a friend, it's a free economy isn't it?

[takeo]

OMG! You mean to tell me you're not paying taxes on these "smuggled marlboro's"?

I'm shocked - absolutely shocked that you, a Socialist, would avoid paying
taxes to France!?!?!

Granted, France does have one of the highest tax rates in the industrial world
and that's not including all the extra fees and added value sales taxes.
Still, takeo do you realize what happens when you engage in such criminal
activity? Do you realize that glory of France suffers when you avoid paying
taxes? What about your "Workers Paradise" ?

GB has even higher taxes on cigarettes. I think taxes on cigarettes are too high, ridiculously so.



Some poor French entitlement or social program will gets less money.
And you! Of all people are avoiding paying for the same social programs
you vote for. I'm shocked (no really)....

perhaps the people who urn billions can contribute a little more. Of course they're contributing, more than in the us, but still not enough.


True, France is a morally sick nation.

so in the us everyone sticks to the law? :rolleyes:




In the 2002 elections Le Pen received
more votes than the Socialists - which forced Socialists for vote for Chirac
(and I like Chirac btw) -- All Le Pen wants to do is "purity the French" -

he equally hates the Arabs, you would be great pals.



Like Italy, avoid paying taxes is a national sport isn't it.

yes it is, but generally it's very difficult to avoid it.


First of all the US troops are on bases in 14 NATO countries - "we" ?

there are almost none in France so those countries have to decide for themselves.


But why haven't they?

because they pay a lot of money to be there, directly and indirectly.




Second of all France, afraid of the Soviet tank divisions during the Cold-War
quit the military wing of NATO in order to receive better surrender terms
from the truimphant Warsaw Pact armies....should they cross the Elbe River.

BS, the warsaw pact never had any plans to cross the Elbe, this were typical cold war nonsenses to raise the fear and anti-communist hysteria. We worked towards a united europe instead of a divided Europe.


The main purpose of US troops in Europe is to provide Europeans with
"Adult Supervision". History, (in fact recent history) has shown the
world that Europe is incapable of the basic rudiments of civilized behavior.

repeat this a few times in public and ALL European countries will immidiately demand your departure.
actually it's all about the money, those large bases are a source of income for some towns, especially in Germany. You mean civilised behavior like bombing villages in Vietnam or destroying and torturing in Iraq?




Constant wars, mutual slaughter and invasions required the need for some
sort of Adult Supervision.

lol
all the invasions lately happened outside Europe and most of the times the us, not Europe, was involved.



As parent, I can tell you the importance of an adult being present everytime
children get into a fight.

so I guess concerning Iraq we were being naughty... :rolleyes:



Perhaps another two generations and Europe might
learn to grow up - but as the world learned with Bosnia & Kosovo just 5 years
ago, Europe still has a few decades to go.

what about Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti which is as far from the us as Bosnia is from france???



ps
- takeo, do the right thing, report and pay your cigarette taxes.[/QUOTE]

how much would you pay for a packet? :D

[takeo]

Analysts: Putin Has Squandered Influence
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041207/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue

By DAVID McHUGH, Associated Press Writer
MOSCOW - Russian President Vladimir Putin (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vladimir%20Putin%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Vladimir%20Putin)) has dented his prestige and squandered influence by backing the wrong side in political clashes in Ukraine and in the breakaway Georgian province of Abkhazia, analysts say.

Putin tried to put the best face on things in his comments Monday on the Ukrainian Supreme Court's decision to annul the victory of Kremlin-backed presidential candidate Viktor Yanukovych.

He sternly warned foreign countries not to interfere in the revote — scheduled for Dec. 26 against opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko — and said Russia would work with whoever won.

"Of course we will ... accept the will of any nation in the former Soviet space, and will work with any elected leader," Putin said.

That couldn't hide an embarrassing — and largely self-inflicted — defeat for Putin, who appeared at Yanukovych's side during the campaign and only last week mocked the idea of a new presidential runoff.

The events have frayed his carefully tended relationships with the European Union (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22European%20Union%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=European%20Union)) and the United States, both of which refused to recognize the election and pointed to evidence of widespread fraud — after Putin had congratulated Yanukovych.

Closer to home, it showed Russia as ineffectual in dealings with other former members of the Soviet Union, where it seeks a dominant role. The Ukraine debacle came amid a fumbled attempt to push its own candidate for president of the breakaway region of Abkhazia in Georgia.

And it follows last year's revolution in Georgia, where Russia couldn't stop reformer Mikhail Saakashvili — who wants to move closer to the West — from winning power amid protest over fraudulent elections there.

"Putin should understand this isn't the Soviet Union," said Vafa Guluzade, a former government foreign policy adviser in Azerbaijan. "The time for appointing Russian marionettes is over."

Factors in Putin's gaffes appear to be Soviet-era habits of thinking, forged during his earlier career as a KGB intelligence officer, as well as reliance on a narrow Kremlin circle of advisers, analysts said.

In the case of Ukraine, he made the miscalculation that President Bush (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22President%20Bush%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=President%20Bush)), who has forged a working relationship with Putin in the war on terrorism, would not get in his way, said Dmitry Trenin, an expert on U.S.-Russian relations at the Moscow Carnegie Center.

"I think Putin had hope, right until the last, that he could reach agreement with Bush over Ukraine, and these hopes have dissipated in the past week," Trenin said.

Over the years, Bush has toned down criticism of Russia's campaign against separatist rebels in Chechnya (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Chechnya%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Chechnya)), and Putin has acquiesced to U.S. troops being stationed in Central Asia, close to Moscow.

But Western concern over vote fraud in Ukraine, a former Soviet republic of 48 million people, ruled out a similar tacit deal. Both the United States and the EU have made free and fair elections a top priority in their foreign policies.

The criticism of Russia's stance has prompted a string of angry comments directed at Western governments from Putin in the past several days. On Tuesday, he expressed doubt about how Iraq (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_s_miscue/13637016/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Iraq)) could hold elections Jan. 30 — a date the Bush administration has said remains firm.

"Honestly speaking, I cannot imagine how it is possible to organize elections under the conditions of occupation by foreign forces," Putin said in televised comments during a Kremlin meeting with interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

For Yevgeny Volk, a political analyst at the Heritage Foundation in Moscow, Putin's behavior reflects his past as a KGB agent.

"Could Putin behave any other way? My answer is no," said Volk. The Ukraine involvement "was a logical continuation of Russian imperial politics and a very consistent implementation of Putin's mentality."

Putin remains overly focused on a friend-or-foe outlook from the Cold War, Volk said, and on finding local leaders whose strings he can pull.

Trenin said one flaw in Putin's decision-making was relying only on a narrow circle of advisers in the Kremlin, to the exclusion of the Foreign Ministry and outside experts.

The result is "a colossal concentration of foreign policy decisions in the hands and the heads of only a few people, who rely only on government channels of information and analysis," Trenin said.

A more nuanced approach would have worked better: "Putin should have invited Yushchenko for tea to" his residence outside Moscow, Trenin said.

That would have put Putin — and Russia — on the winning side no matter the outcome.

"They should have played a sophisticated game. In this case simplicity did not help," said Trenin.


things are a bit more complicated than presented here, Kutchma nor shevarnadze were allies of russia, quite on the contrary. perhaps the strong russian support with one of the sides had to do with nationalist feelings among Russians who want to defend their russian-speaking brothers in ukrain.
(as in south-ossetia which is also mainly Russianised and pro-russian)

Not all anti-russian pro-western former soviet nations are democracies, uzbekistan and azerbaidjan, two allies of the us, are the worst dictatorships in the former soviet-union next to Turkmenistan. The West has never been sincerely interested in democracy in the former soviet union and neither is it now. Even if iuchenko starts to discriminate Russians in ukrain I think Europe nor the us won't intervene, as long as he remains at their side.

[takeo]

Like MGB8, I too noticed that takeo cares a lot more about Russian influence than about people who live in countries neighboring Russia. A good thing for Ukranians, though, is that ulike Georgia, theirs is a huge country, and they have plenty of natural resources. Coal is a very big industry there. Sure Russia can hurt them, but closure of the border, or any other activities that takeo boasts they could engage in to hurt Ukraine, will hurt them as well. Which is why it will never happen. Most likely, the Russians will just have to come to terms with the fact that Ukraine will be ruled by Ukranians, and not by them.

Yes but coal is concentrated in the east of the ukrain, near Donetsk, it is Russian-speaking territory and they have announced a referendum for autonomy in january next year...
everything depends what'll happen in ukrain, who'll be elected and what will be his policy.
I care for ukrainians as well, they are wonderfull people, but I think a close union with russia serves their interests best. After all both economies are interconnected, as well as the two peoples share a lot of common history. Why does the west want to rip apart the former soviet-union at all costs?

[KettleWhistle]

Not all anti-russian pro-western former soviet nations are democracies, uzbekistan and azerbaidjan, two allies of the us, are the worst dictatorships in the former soviet-union next to Turkmenistan. The West has never been sincerely interested in democracy in the former soviet union and neither is it now. Even if iuchenko starts to discriminate Russians in ukrain I think Europe nor the us won't intervene, as long as he remains at their side.
The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, only be allies with democratic countries.



Yes but coal is concentrated in the east of the ukrain, near Donetsk, it is Russian-speaking territory and they have announced a referendum for autonomy in january next year...
everything depends what'll happen in ukrain, who'll be elected and what will be his policy.
I care for ukrainians as well, they are wonderfull people, but I think a close union with russia serves their interests best. After all both economies are interconnected, as well as the two peoples share a lot of common history. Why does the west want to rip apart the former soviet-union at all costs?
"Nationalist" government will not abandon its economic ties with Russia. They just don't want to be rulled by Russia and they don't want to be russified. If anyone, it is Russia who is trying to rip them apart to extend its infuence, just like they done in Moldova, and later in Georgia.

[takeo]

The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, only be allies with democratic countries.

So what you are saying is that they are only interested in democracy when it serves their goals...


"Nationalist" government will not abandon its economic ties with Russia. They just don't want to be rulled by Russia and they don't want to be russified.

but what with the parts of Ukrain that are already russified/have always been Russian? In Georgia the big problem was abkhazia and South-Ossetia, who didn't like the policy of "gruzification". A nationalist government usually doesn't care for the interests of the minorities, especially in the former Soviet-union and Eastern Europe.


If anyone, it is Russia who is trying to rip them apart to extend its infuence, just like they done in Moldova, and later in Georgia.

actually in Georgia as in moldova minorities broke away because nationalist governments tried to take away their minority rights. Russia supported them, but if they didn't perhaps there would have been a genocide or etnic cleansing, as happened in nagorno karabakh, armenia and azerbaidjan.
Shevarnadze was not a good president, but at least he tried to come to a solution with south-ossetia and abkhazia (not during his first years in power, but later he got more moderate). the nationalist Saakashvili (as his predecessor Khamsakurdia) tried the military approach but failed miserably.
Nowadays Georgia is begging Russia for more investments and for solving the south-ossetian and abkhazian question. this is the right approach, and a friendlier stance towards Russia may yield good results. I hope the new Ukrainian government will understand this as well. If they suddenly would accept NATO-troops or forbid the public use of Russian it would be a very very hostile move to Russia and the minorities in Ukrain, which may lead to catastrophy as in georgia.

[KettleWhistle]

So what you are saying is that they are only interested in democracy when it serves their goals...
No, what I am saying is just what I posted above: The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, or only be allies with democratic countries.


but what with the parts of Ukrain that are already russified/have always been Russian? In Georgia the big problem was abkhazia and South-Ossetia, who didn't like the policy of "gruzification". A nationalist government usually doesn't care for the interests of the minorities, especially in the former Soviet-union and Eastern Europe.
Or in other words, you have no clue. Nationalist governments want independence, and want to stop marginalisation of their native cultures in favor of Russian culture. They are not against minorities. It is the Russians who try to scare minorities in order to create chaos in these places. But you never lived in there, so what would you know anyway?


actually in Georgia as in moldova minorities broke away because nationalist governments tried to take away their minority rights.
What a bunch of BS. Minorities didn't "break away." In Moldova, Russia occupied a part of the country, together with semi-legal gangs of ressurected cossaks, and left that part of the country to local mafia bosses. I will never forget my trip to Moldova in 1992. The capital city, Kishinev, held by the "nationalists" wouldn't give anything away, but the road to Pridnestrovie, the "breakaway" area, was littered with corpses as you got close to the border between two areas. And once we finally got to Tiraspol, the "breakaway" capital, I've seen people being shot point blank on the streets by the local government people, who then calmly got into their Jeep Cherokee Laredo and drove away. So minority rights my tail. But I'm sure that you must've been one of the people supporting admission of Moldova to the Euro neighbor program.

[takeo]

No, what I am saying is just what I posted above: The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, or only be allies with democratic countries.

so why aren't you interested in democracy in kasakhstan, azerbaidjan, Uzbekistan, etc. and if you are why don't you support the democrats there who are fighting the regime? And why do you consider lukashenko an evil tyrant and Karimov (who, according to all observers and the house of liberty, is much more autoritarian) an ally? If you can't answer any of these questions the conclusion is simple, you only support democratisation when it serves your geopolitical interests (exactly as in the Arab world).





Or in other words, you have no clue. Nationalist governments want independence, and want to stop marginalisation of their native cultures in favor of Russian culture. They are not against minorities. It is the Russians who try to scare minorities in order to create chaos in these places. But you never lived in there, so what would you know anyway?

You don't have a clue, I've been in Txinkvali in 1990 to visit friends of my mother and heard what this mother*ucker Khamsakurdia was trying to do in South-Ossetia, he took away their rights to speak Russian or Ossetian in public. In Western Ukrain busdrivers are fined if they play Russian music on their busses (it was on BBC-webside if you don't believe me), in Azerbaidjan and Armenia we all know the catastrophical consequences of nationalism, in Uzbekistan Russians are discriminated on the labourmarket, etc. etc..



What a bunch of BS. Minorities didn't "break away." In Moldova, Russia occupied a part of the country, together with semi-legal gangs of ressurected cossaks, and left that part of the country to local mafia bosses. I will never forget my trip to Moldova in 1992. The capital city, Kishinev, held by the "nationalists" wouldn't give anything away, but the road to Pridnestrovie, the "breakaway" area, was littered with corpses as you got close to the border between two areas. And once we finally got to Tiraspol, the "breakaway" capital, I've seen people being shot point blank on the streets by the local government people, who then calmly got into their Jeep Cherokee Laredo and drove away. So minority rights my tail. But I'm sure that you must've been one of the people supporting admission of Moldova to the Euro neighbor program.

But the local Russians, as in south-Ossetia, support their leaders, if not they would never have succeeded. Russian troops only came there AFTER the independance was already a fact. If Moldova could become independant, why can't transdnestria, where hardly any moldavians are living? Were you there on a tourist trip or what?
Anyway if Moldova ever wants to be reunited, it will have to accept Russian as national language next to Romanian and the Turkish language which is also spoken in a part of Moldova, and give large autonomy to Transdnestria.
Forced ruddification is bad, as it happened during tsarist times, but if a considerable part of your population speaks Russian, you have to accept it, if not you're denying reality and give Russian an official status, if not you're discriminating minorities.

[Illuminatus]

I previously wrote in post #116 :

The main purpose of US troops in Europe is to provide Europeans with
"Adult Supervision". History, (in fact recent history) has shown the
world that Europe is incapable of the basic rudiments of civilized behavior.

and takeo replies:

[.. repeat this a few times in public and ALL European countries will
immidiately demand your departure. ..]

Actually it's repeated everyday and loud & clear. The Supreme Allied
Commander of NATO is an American general. It'll stay that way until
Europeans become adults.

Teaching Europeans a recent lesson in civilized behavior in 1999, Kosovo
was General Wesley Clark - from Arkansas.

---► Back to the Ukraine and the latest loss for our Axis of Weasels.

● The AP has this report that:

[..The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the
past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine, paying
to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet U.S. leaders
and helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's
disputed runoff election. ..]

"US Money Helped Opposition in Ukraine" (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20041210/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_ukraine_election)

● However, Le Sabot Post-Moderne reports that: (http://www.postmodernclog.com/archives/cat_ukraine.html#000829)

[..Russia spent 6 times more money during the Ukrainian
presidential campaign than the United States.

Russia's money went rather directly to one candidate. America's
was mostly spent on ensuring free and open elections through NGOs.

Remember this the next time some chucklehead starts spouting tinfoil
hat theories about how America stole the elections here. ..]

....heh heh heh........(I like that tinfoil hat part)

Someone really should teach the Axis of Weasels (Russia, France,
Germany Belgium and Kofi Annan) how to best manage and target
their money. They might have even kept their beloved Saddam
Hussien in power a little while longer.

● uh oh....looks like Georgia is next on the list (http://www.postmodernclog.com/archives/cat_ukraine.html#000823)

Axis of Weasels.....meet "Benjamin", Niko and Vanya : )

[takeo]

The main purpose of US troops in Europe is to provide Europeans with
"Adult Supervision". History, (in fact recent history) has shown the
world that Europe is incapable of the basic rudiments of civilized behavior.

and takeo replies:

[.. repeat this a few times in public and ALL European countries will
immidiately demand your departure. ..]

Actually it's repeated everyday and loud & clear. The Supreme Allied
Commander of NATO is an American general. It'll stay that way until
Europeans become adults.

oh, at least we have to receive some lessons in being arrogant, that seems to be your speciality. the latest 10 or what secretary-generals of NATO were Europeans, and NATO has been erected by a socialist Belgian... while most of NATO-officials have a socialist background.





Teaching Europeans a recent lesson in civilized behavior in 1999, Kosovo
was General Wesley Clark - from Arkansas.

yes, I remember him, he was the one who wanted to bomb Russian tanks, if the French and Brittish didn't stop him we might have had WWIII, to protect a few muslim extremists in Kosovo...




---► Back to the Ukraine and the latest loss for our Axis of Weasels.

● The AP has this report that:

[..The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the
past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine, paying
to bring opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko to meet U.S. leaders
and helping to underwrite exit polls indicating he won last month's
disputed runoff election. ..]

"US Money Helped Opposition in Ukraine" (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20041210/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_ukraine_election)

● However, Le Sabot Post-Moderne reports that: (http://www.postmodernclog.com/archives/cat_ukraine.html#000829)

[..Russia spent 6 times more money during the Ukrainian
presidential campaign than the United States.

Russia's money went rather directly to one candidate. America's
was mostly spent on ensuring free and open elections through NGOs.

Remember this the next time some chucklehead starts spouting tinfoil
hat theories about how America stole the elections here. ..]

....heh heh heh........(I like that tinfoil hat part)

yeah, the Russians sometimes lack good organisation. Why didn't the supporters of the prime minister (who receives the blessing of about half of the population and the majority in the east) took the the street in the same numbers as the supporters of Iuchenko, why didn't they block buildings as well... perhaps they were too sure their candidate would solve this quickly, or perhaps they were too drunk, busy or whatever, but it was a serious mistake.



Someone really should teach the Axis of Weasels (Russia, France,
Germany Belgium and Kofi Annan) how to best manage and target
their money. They might have even kept their beloved Saddam
Hussien in power a little while longer.


actually France and Germany support Iuchenko it seems the "axis of weasels" (as opposed to the axis of warmongerers and liers) is divided on this issue.

[KettleWhistle]

so why aren't you interested in democracy in kasakhstan, azerbaidjan, Uzbekistan, etc. and if you are why don't you support the democrats there who are fighting the regime? And why do you consider lukashenko an evil tyrant and Karimov (who, according to all observers and the house of liberty, is much more autoritarian) an ally? If you can't answer any of these questions the conclusion is simple, you only support democratisation when it serves your geopolitical interests (exactly as in the Arab world).
Let me give it another try, maybe it will get thru the third time around: The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, or only be allies with democratic countries.


You don't have a clue, I've been in Txinkvali in 1990 to visit friends of my mother and heard what this mother*ucker Khamsakurdia was trying to do in South-Ossetia, he took away their rights to speak Russian or Ossetian in public. In Western Ukrain busdrivers are fined if they play Russian music on their busses (it was on BBC-webside if you don't believe me), in Azerbaidjan and Armenia we all know the catastrophical consequences of nationalism, in Uzbekistan Russians are discriminated on the labourmarket, etc. etc..
*I* don't have a clue? You didn't live in the Soviet Union, you just been at some shi*holes here and there a few times, and you think you know anythying about life there? And I wonder how is it that a coworker of mine plays Russian music from a web site of a Lviv (that's Western Ukraine) all the time? I guess they are just fining the bus drivers, but not radio station owners. The fact of the matter is that Russians who live outside of Russia just can't stand not being in charge anymore. Well, too bad. They can either more to Russia, or they can start respecting their host nations instead of trying to subjugate them. Especially since all these discrimination claims are due to these countries refusing to accept Russian, a foreign language, as a state language.


But the local Russians, as in south-Ossetia, support their leaders, if not they would never have succeeded. Russian troops only came there AFTER the independance was already a fact. If Moldova could become independant, why can't transdnestria, where hardly any moldavians are living? Were you there on a tourist trip or what?
Sure they support the thugs who took charge of the place. Otherwise they get a bullet between the eyes, often in a public place during the day. Makes a good example of what happens when you oppose el jefe. And, yes, the Russian troops invaded their country after Moldova proclaimed independence. Interestingly enough, majority of Russians, Ukranians, and Jews with whom I talked in Kishinev, the Moldovan capital, were bitching about having to learn Romanian, but were supportive of the Moldovan side of the conflict, and hoped that the Moldovan army will take Transdnistria. And interestingly enough, in 2004 people still speak Russian there.

[takeo]

Let me give it another try, maybe it will get thru the third time around: The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, or only be allies with democratic countries.

so the West is interested in democracy in some nations but wants to have dictatorships as its allies... sounds like strong hypocrisy. Like supporting pinochet or bombing Vietnamese villages in the name of "freedom" as Kissinger did.



And I wonder how is it that a coworker of mine plays Russian music from a web site of a Lviv (that's Western Ukraine) all the time? I guess they are just fining the bus drivers, but not radio station owners.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3783353.stm
perhaps they have no grip (yet) on radio stations.


The fact of the matter is that Russians who live outside of Russia just can't stand not being in charge anymore. Well, too bad. They can either more to Russia, or they can start respecting their host nations instead of trying to subjugate them. Especially since all these discrimination claims are due to these countries refusing to accept Russian, a foreign language, as a state language.

this is very interesting! So you consider Russians who've lived in those countries for ages as "foreigners" instead of inhabitants of the same country with the same rights? This is exactly how the nationalists think and the core of all problems. That's how the conflict in nagorno Karabakh begin ("why can't these Armenians speak and use Azeri, after all they live in azerbaidjan"). You have exposed yourself. Have you never heard of "minority rights" and the right of minorities to speak their own language and use it in public? Apparently not.




Sure they support the thugs who took charge of the place. Otherwise they get a bullet between the eyes, often in a public place during the day. Makes a good example of what happens when you oppose el jefe. And, yes, the Russian troops invaded their country after Moldova proclaimed independence. Interestingly enough, majority of Russians, Ukranians, and Jews with whom I talked in Kishinev, the Moldovan capital, were bitching about having to learn Romanian, but were supportive of the Moldovan side of the conflict, and hoped that the Moldovan army will take Transdnistria. And interestingly enough, in 2004 people still speak Russian there.

Nowadays Moldova has a good government and they're working towards a peacefull solution, perhaps giving the transdnestrians full autonomy and the right to use Russian as official language. The new government accepts reality that people in moldova speak Russian as well as Romanian, they stopped the attempts of the former government to "romanise" the country.

[Mediocrates]

Democracy and liberalism are two different things.
Democracy and elections are two different things.


One would think those are obvious distinctions.

[KettleWhistle]

so the West is interested in democracy in some nations but wants to have dictatorships as its allies... sounds like strong hypocrisy. Like supporting pinochet or bombing Vietnamese villages in the name of "freedom" as Kissinger did. Let's try it one more time. That's #4: The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, or only be allies with democratic countries.


this is very interesting! So you consider Russians who've lived in those countries for ages as "foreigners" instead of inhabitants of the same country with the same rights? This is exactly how the nationalists think and the core of all problems. That's how the conflict in nagorno Karabakh begin ("why can't these Armenians speak and use Azeri, after all they live in azerbaidjan"). You have exposed yourself. Have you never heard of "minority rights" and the right of minorities to speak their own language and use it in public? Apparently not.
Yes I have exposed myself by saying the obvious: minorities don't have the right to have their language made into a state language, or to have their culture be promoted over the native culture in order to make it dominant.


Nowadays Moldova has a good government and they're working towards a peacefull solution, perhaps giving the transdnestrians full autonomy and the right to use Russian as official language. The new government accepts reality that people in moldova speak Russian as well as Romanian, they stopped the attempts of the former government to "romanise" the country.More bull. They had Russians occupy a part of the country, they put criminals in charge of that part, and used non-existant cultural issues to justify it. Transdnistria doesn't have a real government. They don't have police. Unlike the rest of Moldova, they don't hold elections. And anyone who expresses their dislike gets shot, or if they are lucky just beaten. Sure sounds like a model for resolution of ethno-cultural conflicts, doesn't it?

[Illuminatus]

● takeo writes in post #130:

[..oh, at least we have to receive some lessons in being arrogant..]

No, you don't have to recieve lessons of any sort. Until the European
Union completely relies on itself for its own defence - it'll continue
to be treated as a child when it come to its own military defence.

It's your own fault and the price you are willing to pay to keep funding
your massive social programs and refusing structural economic reforms.

Beside, it's common for children to look up as adults and think of them
as "arrogant". Adults knows what's in the best interest of children.

The 100,000 US troops and the 6th Fleet are in Europe to ensure that
you behave in a civilized manner. That's not arrogance, that's parenthood.

The NATO SAC has traditionally gone to an American general and the
political wing has always gone to a European (leftist or otherwise).

BTW, traditions are easy to break. Why won't the Europeans insist that
the next Supreme Allied Commander be European? (France won't have
much say so anyways - it's not part of of military command of NATO)

Afraid that the adults will go home is Europe's only answer.

Your comment that NATO was trying "protect a few muslim extremists
in Kosovo..." and not the 250,000 refugees caused by the ethnic cleansing
simply delays our recongnition of European adulthood for another generation
or so.

● regarding your fond memories Gen. Wes Clark:

[..yes, I remember him, he was the one who wanted to bomb Russian tanks,
if the French and Brittish didn't stop him we might have had WWIII, to
protect a few muslim extremists in Kosovo....]

How dramatic - suddenly the French are involved with saving the world! Oh my!

The strategic plan was to force Europeans to stop the ethnic cleansing of
its own citizens. That was accomplished after some serious bombing and
destruction of its infrastructure (the only language many Europeans seem
to understand) - and the Europeans stopped the cleansing.

The hilarious "incident" you are refering to involved 500 British and French
paratroopers under General Sir Mike Jackson's command a month after
Milosevic was forced from Kosovo. 200 Russian troops in 30 vehicles and
tanks rush the Pristina Airport (made for some great TV in Moscow btw).

When Gen. Wes Clark realized he needed an airport runway, he asked the
NATO/European contingent to get there first. And if late, escort the Ruskies
off the premises (or at least some didtance from the runway).

General Sir Mike Jackson's remarked that:
"I'm not going to start the Third World War for you" -- and so the exchange
became pretty much the butt of a thousand jokes in the USA.

Two days later, 4 US airforce C-130's landed anyways. Accompanied by an
entire squadron of F-18's which "laser painted" every Russian vehicle on the
other side of the runway. They unload radar, tents and air traffic control
equipment and the Russians went home (too expensive I guess) 3 months
later.

Yes, WWIII was averted and France once again saved the world!

Wes Clark - the hero of the Klintoon Administration seemed to be a bit
excitable (maybe of being tired - it's hard work killing 6,000 Europeans
during a bombing campaign), didn't realize what a jerk he was until he
ran for president as a Democrat and the press started to repeat some
of the 1999 jokes. Very appropriate that he supported John Kerry.

● Lastly takeo said: [..the "axis of weasels" is divided on this (Ukrainain) issue...]

takeo, what ever happened to unity shown to keep a mass murderer named
Saddam Hussein in power longer?

True, the Axis were getting some excellent oil/weapon contracts from
Saddam, and yes, French marble was a stable in many of Saddam's 55
palaces - but still, can't the Axis of Weasels stay united for at least a year?

● .....ps,
How's Christmas in France this time of year? : )
Getting lotsa snow?

Here in the MidWest - the harvest is in and we had one of those "once
every five years" record harvests - alot of farmers are driving brand new
pickup trucks. Corn prices held on the Chicago Merc this fall.

Of course, I do blame it all on the Bush tax cuts (and not global warming : )

[KettleWhistle]

Suspicions Cast on Russia After Poisoning
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=4&u=/ap/20041214/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem

Before and After pictures: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041213/481/nyet25612131431

By STEVE GUTTERMAN, Associated Press Writer
MOSCOW - In the bloodstained post-Soviet period, feuds over money and power have often been solved by bullets or bombs. But confirmation that Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko was disfigured by dioxin draws attention to suspicious cases in Russia in which poison may have been used to silence political foes and settle business scores.

As Yushchenko's supporters suggest Russian involvement in the attempt to hurt or kill him, critics of the Kremlin say poisoning is a Soviet-era practice that seems to have reappeared since ex-KGB officer Vladimir Putin (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vladimir%20Putin%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Vladimir%20Putin)) became president and put many of his colleagues from the spy agency into positions of power.

"The list is rather long, and since Putin assumed power in Russia, poisoning has been one of the preferred political tools used by the Kremlin," said Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent Russian military affairs analyst.

Yuri Shchekochikhin, a liberal Russian lawmaker and journalist who crusaded against corruption, died in July 2003 after apparently suffering a severe allergic reaction. Colleagues suspect he was poisoned, probably in connection with his reports on a case involving customs officials and allegations that a furniture store evaded millions of dollars in import duties.

Russia's chief prosecutor's office told Shchekochikhin's colleagues at the Novaya Gazeta newspaper and at the Yabloko political party there was no evidence he was poisoned, Yabloko spokeswoman Yevgenia Dilendorf said. But she said a British laboratory that conducted tests for the paper and the party found that there were signs of poison.

"We unequivocally believe that Shchekochikhin was poisoned," said Vyacheslav Izmailov, a reporter and columnist at the paper.

Izmailov said the same was true for Anna Politkovskaya, a Novaya Gazeta journalist and Kremlin critic who fell seriously ill with symptoms of food poisoning after drinking tea on a flight from Moscow to southern Russia during the hostage crisis in Beslan. At least two other journalists accused authorities of trying to stop them from covering the standoff.

Izmailov points a finger at Russian intelligence agencies such as the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the main successor of the KGB.

He and Felgenhauer also said Chechen rebels held in Russian jails have been poisoned. While those cases have not been confirmed, the FSB has said its operatives killed Omar Ibn al-Khattab, a Saudi-born militant who fought alongside the rebels in Chechnya (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Chechnya%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Chechnya)) and died in 2002. Khattab's relatives say he was poisoned.

"Poisoning is not the only method the security services use to remove people who are inconvenient for them, but it's one of them," Izmailov said.

Felgenhauer said Russian security forces showed their propensity for using lethal substances when they pumped a knockout gas into a Moscow theater seized by Chechen rebels in 2002. Most of the 129 deaths of hostages were attributed to the gas.
"These substances were mostly developed during Soviet times, under the auspices of the KGB," Felgenhauer said. "And the specialists who designed these kinds of poisons and ways of applying them were trained during Soviet times."

The most notorious Soviet-era case of political poisoning allegedly involving the KGB was that of Bulgarian defector Georgi Markov, who died in London in 1978 after a pellet containing ricin was injected into his thigh — purportedly by a jab with a rigged umbrella.

The alleged cases of poisoning in the former Soviet Union are not limited to Russia. In Belarus, where critics of authoritarian President Alexander Lukashenko have disappeared and are feared dead, the wife of opposition leader Gennady Karpenko has claimed he was poisoned shortly before his death in 1999.

Associates of Yushchenko speculate that Russian or former KGB agents may have been involved in poisoning the candidate. Yushchenko fell ill in September and has campaigned with his face disfigured by what doctors who treated him in Austria said last week was poisoning by dioxin.

Supporters say Yushchenko's opponents wanted to kill him or sideline him from the race against Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, who was backed by outgoing President Leonid Kuchma and the Kremlin, which holds great influence in the former Soviet republic of 48 million people.

The Kremlin has had no reaction to the developments surrounding Yushchenko's health. Kuchma's spokeswoman Olena Gromnystka had no comment when asked if Kuchma had anything to do with the poisoning. Yanukovych reacted by saying he sympathized with his rival, that he wished him "no evil" and demanded a thorough investigation.

Some suspected poisonings do not appear politically motivated. Around the same time Yushchenko was sickened, prominent St. Petersburg security company chief Roman Tsepov died after suffering symptoms of severe food poisoning.

Russian media reported that Tsepov was murdered with a massive dose of a leukemia drug, though prosecutors said Tuesday they have not confirmed he was poisoned.

A company run by Tsepov once provided security to Putin when he was a bureaucrat in St. Petersburg, but that was not seen as a factor in his death. Tsepov survived three assassination attempts in the 1990s and had ties to lucrative businesses that could have made him a target.

Nevertheless, the small but growing list of suspected cases shows that poisoning is "not random — that it's a way of dealing with political leaders," Dilendorf said.

It's frightening, she said, "because it means that it's possible to dispose of anyone and go unpunished — absolutely unpunished. And it's very hard to prove."

[takeo]

Suspicions Cast on Russia After Poisoning
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=4&u=/ap/20041214/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem

Before and After pictures: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041213/481/nyet25612131431

By STEVE GUTTERMAN, Associated Press Writer
MOSCOW - In the bloodstained post-Soviet period, feuds over money and power have often been solved by bullets or bombs. But confirmation that Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko was disfigured by dioxin draws attention to suspicious cases in Russia in which poison may have been used to silence political foes and settle business scores.

As Yushchenko's supporters suggest Russian involvement in the attempt to hurt or kill him, critics of the Kremlin say poisoning is a Soviet-era practice that seems to have reappeared since ex-KGB officer Vladimir Putin (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Vladimir%20Putin%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Vladimir%20Putin)) became president and put many of his colleagues from the spy agency into positions of power.

"The list is rather long, and since Putin assumed power in Russia, poisoning has been one of the preferred political tools used by the Kremlin," said Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent Russian military affairs analyst.

Yuri Shchekochikhin, a liberal Russian lawmaker and journalist who crusaded against corruption, died in July 2003 after apparently suffering a severe allergic reaction. Colleagues suspect he was poisoned, probably in connection with his reports on a case involving customs officials and allegations that a furniture store evaded millions of dollars in import duties.

Russia's chief prosecutor's office told Shchekochikhin's colleagues at the Novaya Gazeta newspaper and at the Yabloko political party there was no evidence he was poisoned, Yabloko spokeswoman Yevgenia Dilendorf said. But she said a British laboratory that conducted tests for the paper and the party found that there were signs of poison.

"We unequivocally believe that Shchekochikhin was poisoned," said Vyacheslav Izmailov, a reporter and columnist at the paper.

Izmailov said the same was true for Anna Politkovskaya, a Novaya Gazeta journalist and Kremlin critic who fell seriously ill with symptoms of food poisoning after drinking tea on a flight from Moscow to southern Russia during the hostage crisis in Beslan. At least two other journalists accused authorities of trying to stop them from covering the standoff.

Izmailov points a finger at Russian intelligence agencies such as the Federal Security Service, or FSB, the main successor of the KGB.

He and Felgenhauer also said Chechen rebels held in Russian jails have been poisoned. While those cases have not been confirmed, the FSB has said its operatives killed Omar Ibn al-Khattab, a Saudi-born militant who fought alongside the rebels in Chechnya (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Chechnya%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/russia_poison_problem/13702981/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Chechnya)) and died in 2002. Khattab's relatives say he was poisoned.

"Poisoning is not the only method the security services use to remove people who are inconvenient for them, but it's one of them," Izmailov said.

Felgenhauer said Russian security forces showed their propensity for using lethal substances when they pumped a knockout gas into a Moscow theater seized by Chechen rebels in 2002. Most of the 129 deaths of hostages were attributed to the gas.
"These substances were mostly developed during Soviet times, under the auspices of the KGB," Felgenhauer said. "And the specialists who designed these kinds of poisons and ways of applying them were trained during Soviet times."

The most notorious Soviet-era case of political poisoning allegedly involving the KGB was that of Bulgarian defector Georgi Markov, who died in London in 1978 after a pellet containing ricin was injected into his thigh — purportedly by a jab with a rigged umbrella.

The alleged cases of poisoning in the former Soviet Union are not limited to Russia. In Belarus, where critics of authoritarian President Alexander Lukashenko have disappeared and are feared dead, the wife of opposition leader Gennady Karpenko has claimed he was poisoned shortly before his death in 1999.

Associates of Yushchenko speculate that Russian or former KGB agents may have been involved in poisoning the candidate. Yushchenko fell ill in September and has campaigned with his face disfigured by what doctors who treated him in Austria said last week was poisoning by dioxin.

Supporters say Yushchenko's opponents wanted to kill him or sideline him from the race against Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, who was backed by outgoing President Leonid Kuchma and the Kremlin, which holds great influence in the former Soviet republic of 48 million people.

The Kremlin has had no reaction to the developments surrounding Yushchenko's health. Kuchma's spokeswoman Olena Gromnystka had no comment when asked if Kuchma had anything to do with the poisoning. Yanukovych reacted by saying he sympathized with his rival, that he wished him "no evil" and demanded a thorough investigation.

Some suspected poisonings do not appear politically motivated. Around the same time Yushchenko was sickened, prominent St. Petersburg security company chief Roman Tsepov died after suffering symptoms of severe food poisoning.

Russian media reported that Tsepov was murdered with a massive dose of a leukemia drug, though prosecutors said Tuesday they have not confirmed he was poisoned.

A company run by Tsepov once provided security to Putin when he was a bureaucrat in St. Petersburg, but that was not seen as a factor in his death. Tsepov survived three assassination attempts in the 1990s and had ties to lucrative businesses that could have made him a target.

Nevertheless, the small but growing list of suspected cases shows that poisoning is "not random — that it's a way of dealing with political leaders," Dilendorf said.

It's frightening, she said, "because it means that it's possible to dispose of anyone and go unpunished — absolutely unpunished. And it's very hard to prove."


Washington tried to poison Fidel castro several times, politics is dirty.

[KettleWhistle]

And that makes it alright? Ah, wait, I forgot, it's all OK as long as it serves Russia's greatness.

[takeo]

]Let's try it one more time. That's #4: The West has always been interested in democracy there. But that doesn't mean we have to demand it of everyone, or only be allies with democratic countries.

One more time, you don't mind to cooperate with dictatorships, but whenever it's more appropriate you support democracy. You prefere to conceal the hard truth it euphimism.




Yes I have exposed myself by saying the obvious: minorities don't have the right to have their language made into a state language, or to have their culture be promoted over the native culture in order to make it dominant.

I never said dominant or ONLY state language, but if 40% of Ukrainians speak Russian Russian should be one of the state-languages, obviously. South-Ossetians never demanded to make russian the state-language in all of georgia, only in South-Ossetia.



More bull. They had Russians occupy a part of the country, they put criminals in charge of that part, and used non-existant cultural issues to justify it. Transdnistria doesn't have a real government. They don't have police. Unlike the rest of Moldova, they don't hold elections. And anyone who expresses their dislike gets shot, or if they are lucky just beaten. Sure sounds like a model for resolution of ethno-cultural conflicts, doesn't it?

As much as all this can be true, it doesn't mean transdnestrians are not culturally different from other Moldovans and don't speak Russia. They are still a national minority and language is one of the issues that need to be resolved.

[takeo]

And that makes it alright? Ah, wait, I forgot, it's all OK as long as it serves Russia's greatness.

Wait, I forgot, even killing elected presidents of the Jewish motherland is OK if it serves the goal of greater Israel...
The US tried to kill fidel since they were no longer allowed to invade Cuba, Soviets poisoned exiled opposition leaders, it was part of the cold war, and today it's part of the strategical "great game" going on between Russia and the west. It's real-politics, just as the lies of Bush (who btw also tried to kill Saddam and vice-versa as well) were politics and had a purpose. Politics isn't clean.

[takeo]

No, you don't have to recieve lessons of any sort. Until the European
Union completely relies on itself for its own defence - it'll continue
to be treated as a child when it come to its own military defence.

Well perhaps I'll have to agree with you on this one, we lack a serious army, at least Europe as a whole, not France, which has the most powerfull army in Europe after Russia of course.


It's your own fault and the price you are willing to pay to keep funding
your massive social programs and refusing structural economic reforms.

We already spend an impressive part of the budget on defense.



Beside, it's common for children to look up as adults and think of them
as "arrogant". Adults knows what's in the best interest of children.

Adults who send their children to die in Iraq for nothing are very bad parents.



The 100,000 US troops and the 6th Fleet are in Europe to ensure that
you behave in a civilized manner. That's not arrogance, that's parenthood.

They are there as a leftover from the cold war, the moment Europe asks their removal they'll go.



BTW, traditions are easy to break. Why won't the Europeans insist that
the next Supreme Allied Commander be European? (France won't have
much say so anyways - it's not part of of military command of NATO)

So I guess we are not your children lol



Your comment that NATO was trying "protect a few muslim extremists
in Kosovo..." and not the 250,000 refugees caused by the ethnic cleansing
simply delays our recongnition of European adulthood for another generation
or so.

those refugees only started to seek refuge AFTER the bombing campaign started. there was a very interesting thread about this on this forum a few weeks ago. (where, btw, EUROPE was accused of dragging the us into this war "to protect muslim extremists"...)



How dramatic - suddenly the French are involved with saving the world! Oh my!

The strategic plan was to force Europeans to stop the ethnic cleansing of
its own citizens. That was accomplished after some serious bombing and
destruction of its infrastructure (the only language many Europeans seem
to understand) - and the Europeans stopped the cleansing.

The hilarious "incident" you are refering to involved 500 British and French
paratroopers under General Sir Mike Jackson's command a month after
Milosevic was forced from Kosovo. 200 Russian troops in 30 vehicles and
tanks rush the Pristina Airport (made for some great TV in Moscow btw).

When Gen. Wes Clark realized he needed an airport runway, he asked the
NATO/European contingent to get there first. And if late, escort the Ruskies
off the premises (or at least some didtance from the runway).

General Sir Mike Jackson's remarked that:
"I'm not going to start the Third World War for you" -- and so the exchange
became pretty much the butt of a thousand jokes in the USA.

Two days later, 4 US airforce C-130's landed anyways. Accompanied by an
entire squadron of F-18's which "laser painted" every Russian vehicle on the
other side of the runway. They unload radar, tents and air traffic control
equipment and the Russians went home (too expensive I guess) 3 months
later.

Yes, WWIII was averted and France once again saved the world!

Wes Clark - the hero of the Klintoon Administration seemed to be a bit
excitable (maybe of being tired - it's hard work killing 6,000 Europeans
during a bombing campaign), didn't realize what a jerk he was until he
ran for president as a Democrat and the press started to repeat some
of the 1999 jokes. Very appropriate that he supported John Kerry.

So you agree with me he made a mistake. Anyway the Russian intervension was indeed symbolic, I wished the Russians did more to protect the Serbs, I think putin would have done more, yeltsin was the worst leader ever in Russian history as far as I can see.


takeo, what ever happened to unity shown to keep a mass murderer named
Saddam Hussein in power longer?

This unity was based on the lies and arrogance of the us which claimed this war was about non-existant WMD's. In Ukrain however the Russians were perceived as the bad guys. Conflict of interests between Russia and Europe.



True, the Axis were getting some excellent oil/weapon contracts from
Saddam, and yes, French marble was a stable in many of Saddam's 55
palaces - but still, can't the Axis of Weasels stay united for at least a year

looks like us-business has made good money during this war, especially companies close to Dick Cheney. This at least can be some comfort while thinking about the ever rising number of death US-soldiers and the 100000+ Iraqi death victims of warcriminal G. W. Bush.



● .....ps,
How's Christmas in France this time of year? : )
Getting lotsa snow?

it's cold but no snow as usually, a white Christmas here is as usual as a white christmas in LA I guess.

[KettleWhistle]

One more time, you don't mind to cooperate with dictatorships, but whenever it's more appropriate you support democracy.
Bingow!


I never said dominant or ONLY state language, but if 40% of Ukrainians speak Russian Russian should be one of the state-languages, obviously. South-Ossetians never demanded to make russian the state-language in all of georgia, only in South-Ossetia.

As much as all this can be true, it doesn't mean transdnestrians are not culturally different from other Moldovans and don't speak Russia. They are still a national minority and language is one of the issues that need to be resolved.
Minorities don't have the right to make their languages into state languages. There are no issues to resolve there. Russians are simply behaving in the same way as the Nazi Germany in using its ethnic population in foreign countries as exuses to invade and/or distabilize them. And by the way, Moldovans in Transdnistria are not any different from Moldavans elsewhere, be in Moldova, in Israel, or in Siberia.


Wait, I forgot, even killing elected presidents of the Jewish motherland is OK if it serves the goal of greater Israel...
The US tried to kill fidel since they were no longer allowed to invade Cuba, Soviets poisoned exiled opposition leaders, it was part of the cold war, and today it's part of the strategical "great game" going on between Russia and the west. It's real-politics, just as the lies of Bush (who btw also tried to kill Saddam and vice-versa as well) were politics and had a purpose. Politics isn't clean.
Nobody ever killed an elected president of Israel. And if a foreign government had anything to do with Rabin's murder it would've been an act of war, and I would've fully supported a proper retribution. And your excuse is still as lame as lame gets because Russia is again becoming the Evil Empire that is trying to subjugate other peoples, as well as its own.

[takeo]

Minorities don't have the right to make their languages into state languages. There are no issues to resolve there. Russians are simply behaving in the same way as the Nazi Germany in using its ethnic population in foreign countries as exuses to invade and/or distabilize them.

BULL, minorities hAVE the right to make their language an official one, at least in democratic nations that respect human rights, in all European countries except Turkey and some Balcans countries which aren't exactly examples large minorities can use their own language in official use. Finland, one of the most democratic nations in the world, even grants 10% of Swedishspeakers the right to use Swedish officially ALL OVER FINLAND. In Barcelona Catalan, not Spanish, is the official language (since spain became a democracy and Franco was overthrown), in Moldova even during Soviet times Moldovan was (one of the) national language. Ukrainian nationalists are behaving as fascists by denying minorities their rights, exactly as the military regime in Turkey or the nazi's. So now you officially admit you want to take away the right of minorities to use their language in public.




And by the way, Moldovans in Transdnistria are not any different from Moldavans elsewhere, be in Moldova, in Israel, or in Siberia.

according to the library of congress the majority of inhabitants of Transdnestria have Russian or Ukrainian names and speak Russian, whereas this is not the case in Moldova.




Nobody ever killed an elected president of Israel.

sorry I always confuse prime minister and president, since in Israel the prime minister has the real power and the president is symbolic.


And if a foreign government had anything to do with Rabin's murder it would've been an act of war, and I would've fully supported a proper retribution.

Well you are a foreigner and support his murder, I guess Israel should demand your extradition.



And your excuse is still as lame as lame gets because Russia is again becoming the Evil Empire that is trying to subjugate other peoples, as well as its own.[

LOL! funny! You support Israel which subjugates millions of people (unlike Russia which only tried to interphere in ukrainian politics, but does not occupy Ukrain) and the us which directly subjugates all Iraqi's.

[Mediocrates]

Let's not forget that what we're talking about is the president of the Ukraine more or less openly attempting to assassinate his #1 political rival during a national election in front of the whole world.

[takeo]

Let's not forget that what we're talking about is the president of the Ukraine more or less openly attempting to assassinate his #1 political rival during a national election in front of the whole world.

not nearly as bad as starting a war and killing 100000 people.

[KettleWhistle]

BULL, minorities hAVE the right to make their language an official one, at least in democratic nations that respect human rights, in all European countries except Turkey and some Balcans countries which aren't exactly examples large minorities can use their own language in official use.
Nobody has a right to use some language they want to use instead of the offical language of the country where they live. Period. No international treaty or declaration of human rights states that. But you can start learning Arabic anytime, although you probably speak it already.


according to the library of congress the majority of inhabitants of Transdnestria have Russian or Ukrainian names and speak Russian, whereas this is not the case in Moldova.
So? There are many Russians and Ukranians living there. They are not Moldavians. They are foreigners who came to live there, and they should be respecting the local culture or go back to their countries. They do not have a right to force their culture and language onto the native population.


Well you are a foreigner and support his murder, I guess Israel should demand your extradition.
I am a Jew, and it's a Jewish matter. Get over it already.


LOL! funny! You support Israel which subjugates millions of people (unlike Russia which only tried to interphere in ukrainian politics, but does not occupy Ukrain) and the us which directly subjugates all Iraqi's.
Whom does Israel subjugate? Which Iraqis does the U.S. subjugate? Israel is a democracy that gives its minorities full representative rights. U.S. is working to bring democracy to Iraq. So stop being a moron, if you can that is. Protecting your country against foreign terrorists, as in case of Isreal is not subjugation. Bringing democracy to people is the opposite of subjugation. And you are a liar; that's an established fact.

[Mediocrates]

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, he's not demanding two Urkaines: one Ukrainian and one Russian. I thought anyone who asked was automatically granted their own country.
<smacks head> oh wait, it's about pernicious domination by all the people he likes.

sorry, you were saying?

[takeo]

]I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, he's not demanding two Urkaines: one Ukrainian and one Russian. I thought anyone who asked was automatically granted their own country.

So you are all in favor of the oppression of minorities! Well, I didn't expect anything else.

[KettleWhistle]

I am all for this:http://img59.exs.cx/img59/2900/france16qy.jpg

At least that would be honest.

And I heard there a millions of Ukrainians living in Russia. So I guess their language (Ukranian) should be made in to a state language in Russia, right?

[takeo]

]
Nobody has a right to use some language they want to use instead of the offical language of the country where they live. Period.

So you think Catalans should start speaking Spanish again, Kurds in Iraq and Turkey should not be allowed to speak their own laguage in official use in their own districts, Tibetan culture in China should be forbidden, Québec should use English as an official language, etc. I'm truly shocked, I guess you really are a fascist, the most extreme version of nationalism.



No international treaty or declaration of human rights states that.

BULL take a look at this website where you'll find the minority rights in the UN charter and the European council declarations. http://www.minorityrights.org/



But you can start learning Arabic anytime, although you probably speak it already.

Arabs here came as immigrants, as you came to the us, but Ukrainians in Eastern Ukrain speak Russian since centuries, they are a historical minority.





So? There are many Russians and Ukranians living there. They are not Moldavians. They are foreigners who came to live there, and they should be respecting the local culture or go back to their countries. They do not have a right to force their culture and language onto the native population.

They came there since generations, longer than most Jews in israel, they are a minority and should have minority rights. Because Moldova denied them, the war started. Exactly what happened in Yugoslavia and Nagorno-Karabakh as well. Do you think Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh should stop using Armenian as official language, and should be respecting "local culture" (and convert to Islam)?



I am a Jew, and it's a Jewish matter. Get over it already.

You are a foreigner, not an Israeli citizen.



Whom does Israel subjugate?

millions of palestinians who live under israeli military rule since decades.



Which Iraqis does the U.S. subjugate?

Iraqi's who live under US military occupation.


Israel is a democracy that gives its minorities full representative rights.

the palestinians don't have the right to vote, don't even have citizens rights.


U.S. is working to bring democracy to Iraq.

You mean by appointing prime ministers, by bombing cities who don't accept us-military occupation? by shutting down newspapers and newschannels? by outlawing parties?



Protecting your country against foreign terrorists, as in case of Isreal is not subjugation.

neither is protecting your country's interest, which is what Russia is doing.



Bringing democracy to people is the opposite of subjugation.


if it is forced upon a people it is neither democracy nor acceptable.


And you are a liar; that's an established fact.

why? Your president is an exposed lier, I am not, it are just accusations you can't proove.

[takeo]

I am all for this:http://img59.exs.cx/img59/2900/france16qy.jpg

At least that would be honest.

And I heard there a millions of Ukrainians living in Russia. So I guess their language (Ukranian) should be made in to a state language in Russia, right?

It doesn't look like it, we are crushing islamism (not Islam) in France, and anyway muslims are only a minority of about 10%.

yeah but they live all over Russia, not in a certain region, nowhere are they a majority or an important minority, and most of them are recent immigrants.

[KettleWhistle]

So you think Catalans should start speaking Spanish again, Kurds in Iraq and Turkey should not be allowed to speak their own laguage in official use in their own districts, Tibetan culture in China should be forbidden, Québec should use English as an official language, etc.
This is up to them and their governments, not up to you or up to Russia.


BULL take a look at this website where you'll find the minority rights in the UN charter http://www.minorityrights.org/ (http://www.minorityrights.org/ [/QUOTE)
Didn't see anything there that says that a foreign country has a right to dictate what the state language in Ukraine should be.


and the European council declarations.
Would you like to review my apartment lease agreement?


You are a foreigner, not an Israeli citizen.
Irrelevant. I am a Jew and it's a Jewish matter.


millions of palestinians who live under israeli military rule since decades.
They are not subjugated. They had representative governments before, and they have PA now. What you posted is a lie=you a liar. 2+2=4.


Iraqi's who live under US military occupation.
They are not subjugated, that's just another one of your lies.


the palestinians don't have the right to vote, don't even have citizens rights.
They are citizens of Jordan, Egypt, and the PA. They can vote there. (That was another lie of yours, liar.)


neither is protecting your country's interest, which is what Russia is doing.
Another lie. Russia is attempting to subjugate Ukraine. Whether or not it is in their interests is completely irrelevant. Subjugation is subjugation.

[takeo]

]
This is up to them and their governments, not up to you or up to Russia.

Well, the Russian-speaking Ukrainians want to speak Russian and Russian to be an official language. They have the same right as any other minority.



Didn't see anything there that says that a foreign country has a right to dictate what the state language in Ukraine should be.

But it says this minority should be able to use their language.



Would you like to review my apartment lease agreement?

no thanks



Irrelevant. I am a Jew and it's a Jewish matter.

irrelevant, you're not an Israeli.



They are not subjugated. They had representative governments before, and they have PA now. What you posted is a lie=you a liar. 2+2=4.

But they can't change the fact that Israeli military closes their cities and towns, destroys their houses and gardens, build colonies wherever they want, it means a foreign country is subjugating palestinians.



They are not subjugated, that's just another one of your lies.

So you think Russians subjagated ukrain because they poisened a politician while israel, that everyday kills palestinians, is not subjugating palestinians? :rolleyes:



They are citizens of Jordan, Egypt, and the PA. They can vote there. (That was another lie of yours, liar.)

But the Israeli military is the real power, Jordan nor Egypt nor the PA have real power.



Another lie. Russia is attempting to subjugate Ukraine. Whether or not it is in their interests is completely irrelevant. Subjugation is subjugation

whatever excuse you'll search for the subjugation of palestinians and Iraqi(s, they are subjugated by the israeli and American armies.

[KettleWhistle]

I don't need any exuses. I know what word "subjugation" means. I'm not sure you do.

[Illuminatus]

Veronica (http://www.euro-correspondent.com/veronica.htm) noted in her blog in Kyiv Ukraine, that she found this startling
and shocking letter in her mailbox.

" Orange Revolution in Kyiv is fed ... by the synagogue! "

What? He ain't a Christian? The Horror!!! and the Orange Revolution
is really a Jewish plot? </ sarcasm >

Read the rest in "Neeka's Backlog" (http://vkhokhl.blogspot.com/2004/12/this-is-what-we-found-in-our-mailbox.html)

I'm told that Old Europe will never change. It's obviously true.

[takeo]

actually I heard rumours Yanukovich is a Jew...

[KSO]

actually I heard rumours Yanukovich is a Jew...From what I heard from people living there most Jews in Ukraine support Yenukovich, While many of Yuschenkos biggest suipporters were members of the same groups that hanged members of my family on lamp posts many years ago...

[takeo]

From what I heard from people living there most Jews in Ukraine support Yenukovich, While many of Yuschenkos biggest suipporters were members of the same groups that hanged members of my family on lamp posts many years ago...

exactly, even here most Russian Jews support Yanukovich

[KettleWhistle]

I doubt there is a hint of truth to it. But it isn't funny either. Anti-semitism is deeply rooted in the modern Ukranian culture, and this is just an attempt to play on these feelings. I would call it an anti-Semitic incident.

And it wouldn't be "What? He ain't a Christian?" It would be more like "What? He ain't a Ukranian?"


Veronica (http://www.euro-correspondent.com/veronica.htm) noted in her blog in Kyiv Ukraine, that she found this startling
and shocking letter in her mailbox.

" Orange Revolution in Kyiv is fed ... by the synagogue! "

What? He ain't a Christian? The Horror!!! and the Orange Revolution
is really a Jewish plot? </ sarcasm >

Read the rest in "Neeka's Backlog" (http://vkhokhl.blogspot.com/2004/12/this-is-what-we-found-in-our-mailbox.html)

I'm told that Old Europe will never change. It's obviously true.

[Illuminatus]

Vladimir Matveyev writes:

[.. There are an estimated 200,000 to 500,000 Ukrainian Jews.
Members of the community split their support in last month’s
vote, and are likely to do so again Sunday. ..]

http://www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=140648

Like everything else in the Ukraine - it's not that simple
(or monolithic). It's a split like everyone else.

Old Europe needs another two generations to get past
the "he's a jew" - "he's not a jew" mentality?

Or three.
------------

Agreed KettleWhistle.

Another anti-Semitic incident.

[Illuminatus]

The winners:

√ 37.61 million voters
√ 38.3 million ballots
√ 188,070 absentee ballots (down from 4% to 0.5% of the voters;
for the Nov. 21 runoff there were 1.5 million absentee votes)
√ 32,118 polling stations (there were two more last time - in the
maternity wards, which have since been closed)
√ 12,184 intenational observers

The losers:

Old Europe and The Axis of Weasels.
-----

While it hasn't been updated since Nov. 21, here's the site of the
Central Election Commission, in English.

http://cvk.gov.ua/wp0011e

[KettleWhistle]

All Exit Polls Give Yushchenko Major Lead
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20041226/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_exit_polls_2

KIEV, Ukraine - All three exit polls tracking Sunday's presidential rematch in Ukraine projected opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko as the winner by a large margin over Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.

The government -sponsored Ukrainian Institute of Social Research and Social Monitoring Center showed Yushchenko winning with 58.1 percent of the vote to 38.4 percent for Yanukovych. The margin of error was 2 percentage points .

The poll sampled 13,500 voters with face-to-face interviews at 360 polling stations throughout Ukraine. The survey was sponsored by nine state academic organizations, including sociologists' associations and six universities.

The Razumkov Center of Political Studies and Kiev International Institute of Sociology showed Yushchenko winning with 56.5 percent and Yanukovych collecting 41.3 percent of the vote. A margin of error was not provided.

The Razumkov poll surveyed some 30,000 voters in 360 polling stations using anonymous questionnaires. The center receives funding from numerous Western institutions including NATO (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_exit_polls/13804434/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22NATO%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_exit_polls/13804434/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=NATO)), the United Nations (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_exit_polls/13804434/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22United%20Nations%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_exit_polls/13804434/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=United%20Nations)) and the Soros Foundation.

A third exit poll, by Frank Luntz, a pollster for the U.S. Republican Party, and Douglas Schoen, of the Washington-based market research company Penn, Schoen & Berland, showed Yushchenko winning with 56 to Yanukovych's 41 percent, Schoen said. The margin of error was 2 percent points.

The latter poll surveyed about 10,000 voters on behalf of Ukraine's ICTV television, which is owned by outgoing President Leonid Kuchma's son-in-law Viktor Pinchuk.

Exit polls during the first two rounds of the election showed widely varying results, prompting questions about their validity.

[Illuminatus]

Indeed KettleWhistle

Looks like they're already celebrating over
at the Victor Y(ushenko) official website:

http://www.razom.org.ua

[KettleWhistle]

So (tak) indeed! BTW, it's Yushenko, not Yanukovich. (I know they both start with "Y" in English, and both are Victors, no pun intended.)

My congratulations to the Ukranian people for winning the right to get their voices heard and their choices respected.

[KSO]

So (tak) indeed! BTW, it's Yushenko, not Yanukovich. (I know they both start with "Y" in English, and both are Victors, no pun intended.)

My congratulations to the Ukranian people for winning the right to get their voices heard and their choices respected.The Big question of this elections remains unanswered Europe and U.S Scumbags or just Idiots?

[KettleWhistle]

What?

It's Ukranian's country, and it was their choice. Yes, sure Russians didn't like it, and ridiculed it, and blamed on the U.S. in their state-controlled media. But it was Ukranians who voted, and it's up to them who will lead their country.

[KSO]

What?

It's Ukranian's country, and it was their choice. Yes, sure Russians didn't like it, and ridiculed it, and blamed on the U.S. in their state-controlled media. But it was Ukranians who voted, and it's up to them who will lead their country.
It's not their choise, My Father was an international inspector on the first round according to his words almost all the violations were from the Yushenko camp, But that is not the problem, Europe doesn't know what a stupid mistake they did now, but as usual they'll pay for it, now they have a country of 50 million to feed, good luck with that.

[KettleWhistle]

They had more than 12,000 international inspectors now, and they made their choice. Only time can tell if its stupid or not. And if it is they'll reap what they sew, but like I said before, its their country, and it is their choice, and the Ukranian citizens made it. I wouldn't want either a foreign power or a local mafia faking elections in my country, even if they were to tip in favor of the candidate that I prefer. Likewise, I don't support such in other countries.

[KSO]

They had more than 12,000 international inspectors now, and they made their choice. Only time can tell if its stupid or not. And if it is they'll reap what they sew, but like I said before, its their country, and it is their choice, and the Ukranian citizens made it. I wouldn't want a foreign power or mafia faking elections in my country, even if they were to tip to favor the candidate that I prefer. Likewise, I don't support such in other countries.
Well my advice is now to all the losing sides in the elections to block the streets and pick a cool colour and screw up the process, after all there are violations in every elections, the only elections where there were no violations were elections in countries like the USSR and Saddam's Iraq, For some Reason Europe and the US decided to fight the non-existent Russian demon and all methods are Good for this, and ironiclly enough they are not fighting the Russians on the front that is needed the most, The Chechen War, but hey Just a bunch of non-white Muslims...

[KettleWhistle]

I don't see it as the West fighting Russia, but then I don't have the Russian TV here. To me it is about helping a country have free and fair elections. To many Ukies it's about taking control of their country and making sure that their voices are heard. I was at a Christmas party at my American-born Urkranian boss' house earlier today, and many Ukranians there were wearing orange ribbons or an orange clothes item in support of their homeland. At the same time they were saying that they don't really buy the story of Russians being involved Yushenko's poisoning, since people in Ukraine like to blame everything on Russians, and most likely Russia is just being scapegoated in that case.

[KSO]

I don't see it as the West fighting Russia, but then I don't have the Russian TV here. To me it is about helping a country have free and fair elections. To many Ukies it's about taking control of their country and making sure that their voices are heard. I was at a Christmas party at my American-born Urkranian boss' house earlier today, and many Ukranians there were wearing orange ribbons or an orange clothes item in support of their homeland. At the same time they were saying that they don't really buy the story of Russians being involved Yushenko's poisoning, since people in Ukraine like to blame everything on Russians, and most likely Russia is just being scapegoated in that case.Again you like most people in the west get the media coverage of Hitler VS. Mother Theresa elections, I haven't seen such un-objective news coverage in my life and that's includes the goverment controled Russian press!

[KettleWhistle]

Our coverage is always one-sided, unfortunately. But Russian is no different, and they did have an agenda there, so I wouldn't trust them too much. And our media didn't portray it in any sort of "Hitler VS. Mother Theresa" way. Most of what I've seen have been pretty factual and dry, and didn't favor either candidate.

[KSO]

Our coverage is always one-sided, unfortunately. But Russian is no different, and they did have an agenda there, so I wouldn't trust them too much. And our media didn't portray it in any sort of "Hitler VS. Mother Theresa" way. Most of what I've seen have been pretty factual and dry, and didn't favor either candidate.As our I say as someone who saw the begining of the crisis on Russian Tv, but the Now I'm back at civilization so I see the Israeli or American press, and they present it very superficialy and uncorrectly (and I'mfor neither onr of the candidates and probably closer with my preferance to Yushenko)

[Illuminatus]

KSO writes in #167

[..Europe doesn't know what a stupid mistake they did now,
but as usual they'll pay for it, now they have a
country of 50 million to feed, good luck with that. ..]

That may be the case with "Old Europe"; but with

New Europe, they will step forward to help the Ukraine and
are more than willing to pay for it.

A small, insignificant price to pay for freedom and democratcy.

Come what may - the USA will stand with the Ukraine.

Geert Ahrens, who headed the Organization for Security and
Cooperation in Europe's election observer mission to Ukraine,
said the OSCE is satisfied with the conduct of yesterday's
vote in all 27 regions http://www.osce.org/

As for the "losers" - Russians make up about 17 percent of
Ukraine's population. As mature individuals who understand that
with democratic elections there are always winners and losers,

-- they will peacefully accept the electoral defeat like eveybody
else in the world who lose elections, they will respect the free
will of the electorate, they will come to understand why they lost,
and they will do better next time.

[Mediocrates]

What does the Ukranian legislative system look like and does it matter or can it matter that politically the country is divided, in terms of getting this or that law or policy implemented. Or is it more a case that whomever is elected is for the most part a strongman? The great thing about legitimate electoral procedures is that the people liek KSO get to lick their wounds and go at it hammer and tongs in the future w/o resorting to civil war.

[Mil]

The main issue with the internal Ukranian divide and that of the Russian community (and many Russians in general) are the ultra-nationalistic crowds in the West of the country - the Carpathians. The West Ukranians have instituted the Ukranian language and are pushing strongly on "reviving" the "Ukranian" history and culture. The latter wouldn't be a bad thing if there wouldn't be tons of blood behind the history especially as it concerns us - the Jews.

The Western Ukranians in the twentieth century have created heros like Petlura and Bandera - the latter fought with the Nazis and was responsible for killing tens of thousands of Jews. The former was a civil war general also responsible for the death of tens of thousands of Jews. It also bugs many Russians who spilled their blood fighting against the Nazis and now the same Russians are pressed to support these ultra-nationalists from the West. I bet, and KSO might agree with me, if Yushenko would have distanced himself from the West he would get many more votes from the East given that most Ukranians (no matter of the ethnic belonging) support changes.

By the way Odessa, the largest "Jewish" city in CIS, has more then likely voted for Yanukovich or the government. Many residents are very apprehensive of the nationalists in the West.

There are many issues involved in this saga of the Ukraine that people in the West don't really understand or don't really know.

In any case - I hope there will be no pogroms.

[KSO]

The main issue with the internal Ukranian divide and that of the Russian community (and many Russians in general) are the ultra-nationalistic crowds in the West of the country - the Carpathians. The West Ukranians have instituted the Ukranian language and are pushing strongly on "reviving" the "Ukranian" history and culture. The latter wouldn't be a bad thing if there wouldn't be tons of blood behind the history especially as it concerns us - the Jews.

The Western Ukranians in the twentieth century have created heros like Petlura and Bandera - the latter fought with the Nazis and was responsible for killing tens of thousands of Jews. The former was a civil war general also responsible for the death of tens of thousands of Jews. It also bugs many Russians who spilled their blood fighting against the Nazis and now the same Russians are pressed to support these ultra-nationalists from the West. I bet, and KSO might agree with me, if Yushenko would have distanced himself from the West he would get many more votes from the East given that most Ukranians (no matter of the ethnic belonging) support changes.

By the way Odessa, the largest "Jewish" city in CIS, has more then likely voted for Yanukovich or the government. Many residents are very apprehensive of the nationalists in the West.

There are many issues involved in this saga of the Ukraine that people in the West don't really understand or don't really know.

In any case - I hope there will be no pogroms.And the Ironic part of this is that although most of the Nationalists support Yushenko, a big percentage of the west ukrainians are not ethnical Ukraines or Russians, they live in the Ukraine as a result of soviet victories in WW2, so the population there is very mixed, there are polish people, hungarians, Romanians, baltic people etc. But from I understand the few Jews that still live in the Ukraine supported Yanukovitch mainly because of the Hug Yushenko got from ultra-nationalists.

[Mil]

Posted by KSO:


But from I understand the few Jews that still live in the Ukraine supported Yanukovitch mainly because of the Hug Yushenko got from ultra-nationalists.

A few weeks ago my parents' friends called their relatives in Odessa - the news were that people were preparing for pogroms. Hopefully Yushenko, who himself is from Sumi, will dissociate himself from the idiots in the West and from the likes of Timoshenko. Madam Timoshenko openly screamed from throwing Odessa into the Black Sea and covering Donbass in barbed wire.

People - for us Jews - especially for those who are not familiar about the heroship of the Western Ukranians against our people the present political situation in Ukraine might not be the best alternative. I really hope Yuschenko will get those ultra-nationalists under control.

On some of the Russian forums I've visited some Eastern Ukranians from Kharkov to Donetsk were making remarks to establishing a new autonomous region controlled by some Russian-Jewish coalition. Some people are really-really-really apprehensive. Believe me if those Western Ukranians will not get what they want - free hand in Ukranianizing the population - they'll come out on the streets with more then just Orange baloons.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe they will split up a-la Czechoslovakia. Maybe there is little value in staying together and fighting with each other.

[Mil]

Posted by Mediocrates:


Maybe they will split up a-la Czechoslovakia. Maybe there is little value in staying together and fighting with each other.

They'll will not split - a civil war in Ukraine will be a disaster for our little globe. I really hope they'll get their business together and prevent any popular outburst of public emotions in case such will come up.

The best approach is for the new leadership to dissoaciate itself from the ultra-nationalistic West Ukraine.

Med - the animosity between these two groups is no joke. Add to all this the geopolitical economic disperity between the agrarian West, the tourism rich South and the Industrial East - the situation is grim.

I am not against the opposition and if I was a Ukranian I would vote for the opposition, however, some elements within the opposition are not really kind at all.

[Mediocrates]

One would think so. Maybe they will just decide that east and west should go their seperate ways without an argument. The entirety of Europe seems to be headed to a new era where states don't really matter and if you can 9 people to sew a flag and make a national beer, that's good enough for a country. Their differences or animosities about some battle in the 13th century,their subtle differences in one form of Christianity versus another will never make any sense to the rest of us so why try? You've Ukranian Ukranians and Russian Ukranians. Like French Canadians and Anglo Canadians except they try to assassinate one another. OK.


I think the goal of Europe should be to break up into tens of thousands of tiny communities that can agree that they agree internally on practically everything. I think the clan/tribe model will work for them and it's probably in part why they are sympathetic to the anarchic warlordism in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Countries, such as they, with strong central unifying governments are are barely a hundred fifty years old in Europe, some places more some less. Maybe it's an experiment that's failed for them or at best outlived its purpose. Why else would they have a supranational state in the EU if statehood hadn't become highly diluted and largely irrelevant?

[KSO]

Posted by KSO: But from I understand the few Jews that still live in the Ukraine supported Yanukovitch mainly because of the Hug Yushenko got from ultra-nationalists. A few weeks ago my parents' friends called their relatives in Odessa - the news were that people were preparing for pogroms. Hopefully Yushenko, who himself is from Sumi, will dissociate himself from the idiots in the West and from the likes of Timoshenko. Madam Timoshenko openly screamed from throwing Odessa into the Black Sea and covering Donbass in barbed wire. People - for us Jews - especially for those who are not familiar about the heroship of the Western Ukranians against our people the present political situation in Ukraine might not be the best alternative. I really hope Yuschenko will get those ultra-nationalists under control. On some of the Russian forums I've visited some Eastern Ukranians from Kharkov to Donetsk were making remarks to establishing a new autonomous region controlled by some Russian-Jewish coalition. Some people are really-really-really apprehensive. Believe me if those Western Ukranians will not get what they want - free hand in Ukranianizing the population - they'll come out on the streets with more then just Orange baloons.From what about the religious issue in the west of Ukraine is very much like in Russia a majority of orthodox christians with a small percentage of Muslims and Jews who like in Russia today live without much conflicts, in the west is much more complicated because the percentage of Orthodox Christians is similar to the percentage of Catholic people and a small amount of Protestants, while Jews and Muslims are not very welcomed there, so in the bad scenario it can resolve to a religious conflict, which as we know never a good thing.

[Illuminatus]

[..the goal of Europe should be to break up into tens of
thousands of tiny communities ..]

Mediocrates

The goal of Europe is to become a great, powerful, united global
entity, powerful, confident with 500 millions+ rich people who
asks (or demands) that all US troops to get off the EuroLand
mass ("immediately" would be nice).

Think of savings!

Sen. McCain estimated last year that the U.S. State Dept.
could save $100 million a year if we had only a single
embassy in Brussels instead of one in every Euro state.

Add to that -- $34 to $55 Billion the US taxpayer forks over
a year to keep a vast military presence in EUtopia and we're
not talking "chicken feed" anymore.

[KettleWhistle]

That's just a bunch of hooey. There aren't going to be any pogroms, and the only thing that will happen is the revival of Ukranian language and native culture. Most of the people in the West of Ukrain are not ultra-nationalists, a few vocal figures will yell for while, and fade out, as they generally have elsewhere.

As for the Jewish vote, I believe that Jews should not involve themselves in politics in FSU, and shouldn't vote unless there is a threat to the community. It is not their country, and they shouldn't forget that.

[KSO]

As for the Jewish vote, I believe that Jews should not involve themselves in politics in FSU, and shouldn't vote unless there is a threat to the community. It is not their country, and they shouldn't forget that.Do you think the same about Jews in the US and Europe?! It's a pretty insane thing to say, this is their country just as anyone who lives therer, if this quote is a joke please notify us...

[KettleWhistle]

It's not a joke. Ukrain is an ethnic nation-state. It is Ukrainian's country, and Jews have no business getting involved in their tribal warfare. The U.S. is different because it is not an ethnic nation-state.

[KSO]

It's not a joke. Ukrain is an ethnic nation-state. It is Ukrainian's country, and Jews have no business getting involved in their tribal warfare. The U.S. is different because it is not an ethnic nation-state.Do minorities in ethnic based nation states shouldn't vote, sounds familiar...

[KettleWhistle]

Jews are different from most minorities because our native land in not a part of their country. You can't compare Jews to Basques in Spain or to Osetians in Russia because of that. I am not saying that minorities shouldn't have the right to vote, but as Jews we are people who came there from far away foreign lands, and we should not get involved in politics of these countries unless we absolutely have to. Ukraine, and other FSU countries are not our countries, and unless we are threatened we should not start changing their political landscapes.

[KSO]

Jews are different from most minorities because our native land in not a part of their country. You can't compare Jews to Basques in Spain or to Osetians in Russia because of that. I am not saying that minorities shouldn't have the right to vote, but as Jews we are people who came there from far away foreign lands, and we should not get involved in politics of these countries unless we absolutely have to. Ukraine, and other FSU countries are not our countries, and unless we are threatened we should not start changing their political landscapes.But in most of the soviet countries jews lives there for centuries and that is their country just as any Ukrainian.

[Mediocrates]

[..the goal of Europe should be to break up into tens of
thousands of tiny communities ..]

Mediocrates

The goal of Europe is to become a great, powerful, united global
entity, powerful, confident with 500 millions+ rich people who
asks (or demands) that all US troops to get off the EuroLand
mass ("immediately" would be nice).

Think of savings!

Sen. McCain estimated last year that the U.S. State Dept.
could save $100 million a year if we had only a single
embassy in Brussels instead of one in every Euro state.

Add to that -- $34 to $55 Billion the US taxpayer forks over
a year to keep a vast military presence in EUtopia and we're
not talking "chicken feed" anymore.

I was just kidding but it is true that what they talk about for everyone else: break up and take your ball and go home, disavow your nationhood and dissolve into a vast shopping mall of transnationalism seems precisely where they are heading. Everyone gets to devolve to their own tribal identity, wear their own amusing ethnic hats. I would like to see the end of US military presence in Europe; enough is enough.

[KettleWhistle]

But in most of the soviet countries jews lives there for centuries and that is their country just as any Ukrainian.
Common, man, you live there, you should know we've always been foreigners there.

[Mil]

Posted by KettleWhistle:


That's just a bunch of hooey.

As I said some Jews living in Ukraine are apprehensive - suprisingly out of all the places in Odessa.


There aren't going to be any pogroms, and the only thing that will happen is the revival of Ukranian language and native culture.

And we all know where that will lead. Those idiots will not be waving orange baloons but something completely different to make this cultural "revival" a reality.


Most of the people in the West of Ukrain are not ultra-nationalists, a few vocal figures will yell for while, and fade out, as they generally have elsewhere.

Really?????????? Here in Chicago we have a very large Ukranian community. Many of this particular community are former refugees from West Ukraine who came to the States right after WWII - most of these refugees were members of the Bandera or the SS Galicia units. These people would physically jump on your throat at a single mention of something bad about Bandera. I can only imagine what they do in Western Ukraine. Hell Bandera is put on display in the Middle Of Lvov and the veterans of the SS Galicia are considered national heros.

Quite a cultural identity they propose.

As for the Jewish vote, I believe that Jews should not involve themselves in politics in FSU, and shouldn't vote unless there is a threat to the community. It is not their country, and they shouldn't forget that.

Ok common - stop with this bullsh***t.

[KSO]

Common, man, you live there, you should know we've always been foreigners there.
I don't know, I feeled foreign when I lived in Russia for the past year and a half because I am a foreigner, Russian is not my first language, my mentality is different but that's only because I immigrated when I was 5, most of the jews i know in Russia love this country very much they feel it is their country and they'll never replace it.

[KettleWhistle]

I don't know, I feeled foreign when I lived in Russia for the past year and a half because I am a foreigner, Russian is not my first language, my mentality is different but that's only because I immigrated when I was 5,
Lucky you.



most of the jews i know in Russia love this country very much they feel it is their country and they'll never replace it.

There are some that feel that way, but how many of them would want to go army to fight in Chechnya? I'd think far less than those who'd happily fight in the IDF. One of the reasons I left FSU was avoid their army because I didn't want fight their wars, although if I had a chance I would've gladly joined IDF to patrol the settlements. And there are many people who are just attached. Still it's really strange to hear that they'd love that country or wouldn't want to leave it.

[KettleWhistle]

Most of the people in the West of Ukrain are not ultra-nationalists, a few vocal figures will yell for while, and fade out, as they generally have elsewhere.

Really?????????? Here in Chicago we have a very large Ukranian community. Many of this particular community are former refugees from West Ukraine who came to the States right after WWII - most of these refugees were members of the Bandera or the SS Galicia units. These people would physically jump on your throat at a single mention of something bad about Bandera. I can only imagine what they do in Western Ukraine. Hell Bandera is put on display in the Middle Of Lvov and the veterans of the SS Galicia are considered national heros.

Quite a cultural identity they propose. And I know a bunch of Ukranians who left prior to WWII and aren't that way at all, despite having to live through Stalin's nationalization program that starved and killed millions of them. And I know many from Lvov area also whos parents were resisting the Nazis and hiding Jews.

Either way, I really don't care. It's their country, not mine. Ukies can do whatever they please in their country.

[Illuminatus]

Ukrainian Transport Minister Found Dead (Possible Suicide)
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBIRX1393E.html
.
--------

Russia and China to Hold Joint Maneuvers (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-russia-china,0,374267,print.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines)

[..MOSCOW -- Once-bitter rivals Russia and China will hold a massive joint military exercise on Chinese territory next year involving submarines and possibly strategic bombers, Russia's defense minister said Monday as the two nations move to bolster already burgeoning military ties.

Many observers saw the announcement as Russia's response to a spat with the United States and other Western nations over the disputed election in Ukraine, Russia's neighbor, where the Kremlin-backed candidate trailed a pro-Western politician in near-final results. ..]

boo hoo hoo......

[KettleWhistle]

I read the one about millitary training with China earlier today. I really like this line from the article: Putin and other Russian officials allege that the United States improperly influenced Ukraine's elections by funding democracy-building organizations.
:D :D :D

On the other note, as usually they are blaming everything on the U.S., despite the fact that Europe was involved way way more.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1103776323598&p=1078113566627

Putin: Sorry for 'Zionist' slip

HILARY LEILA KRIEGER, THE JERUSALEM POST Dec. 23, 2004


In what might have been either a Freudian slip or an innocent mistake but was no doubt a diplomatic gaffe, Russian President Vladimir Putin Thursday assailed Ukrainian presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko's campaign for using "anti-Russian, Zionist" slogans.

His office later clarified via the Kremlin Web site that he had meant to say "anti-Russian, anti-Semitic" slogans when answering a question at an end-of-the-year press conference in Moscow.

Yushchenko adversaries have accused some of his supporters of anti-Jewish sentiment. Putin has loudly supported rival candidate Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, who favors strong ties with Russia.

Minister-without-Portfolio Natan Sharansky, responsible for Diaspora Affairs, accepted as true that Putin had made a slip of the tongue rather than expressed actual anti-Israel beliefs.

Sharansky told The Jerusalem Post he was "surprised" when he first heard the reports of Putin's comment. The Russian leader, he said, has "long been careful not to use this kind of rhetoric," condemning the dangers of anti-Semitism and allowing Jewish life free rein under his regime. He did note with interest, however, that when Putin sought to say something injurious about the pro-Western Yushchenko he used the word "Zionist."
"It's at the top of his unconscious that 'Zionist' is a negative word," Sharansky said.

[takeo]

Lucky you.


There are some that feel that way, but how many of them would want to go army to fight in Chechnya?

How many russians want to fight in Chechnia? And, honestly, how many Israeli soldiers want to serve in the Gaza strip?

[KSO]

Minister-without-Portfolio Natan Sharansky, responsible for Diaspora Affairs, accepted as true that Putin had made a slip of the tongue rather than expressed actual anti-Israel beliefs.

Sharansky told The Jerusalem Post he was "surprised" when he first heard the reports of Putin's comment. The Russian leader, he said, has "long been careful not to use this kind of rhetoric," condemning the dangers of anti-Semitism and allowing Jewish life free rein under his regime. He did note with interest, however, that when Putin sought to say something injurious about the pro-Western Yushchenko he used the word "Zionist."
"It's at the top of his unconscious that 'Zionist' is a negative word," Sharansky said.
Sharansky is the biggest idiot in the whole wide world period, if we'll have luck some leader will propose a peace plan in which Sharansky will be transfered to another country, or taken under UN costudy, and the country will save a couple of millions on dissolving his non-existent ministry.

[takeo]

One would think so. Maybe they will just decide that east and west should go their seperate ways without an argument. The entirety of Europe seems to be headed to a new era where states don't really matter and if you can 9 people to sew a flag and make a national beer, that's good enough for a country. Their differences or animosities about some battle in the 13th century,their subtle differences in one form of Christianity versus another will never make any sense to the rest of us so why try? You've Ukranian Ukranians and Russian Ukranians. Like French Canadians and Anglo Canadians except they try to assassinate one another. OK.


I think the goal of Europe should be to break up into tens of thousands of tiny communities that can agree that they agree internally on practically everything. I think the clan/tribe model will work for them and it's probably in part why they are sympathetic to the anarchic warlordism in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Countries, such as they, with strong central unifying governments are are barely a hundred fifty years old in Europe, some places more some less. Maybe it's an experiment that's failed for them or at best outlived its purpose. Why else would they have a supranational state in the EU if statehood hadn't become highly diluted and largely irrelevant?

National states and national conciousness is still very important in Europe, all over Europe. The only exceptions might be Ukrain and Belarus) (which is close to russian culture) and Austria and Germany which share a lot as well. But all the other countries still have very strong national sentiments, the EU will never become a "United States of Europe", that's just nearly impossible and even less likely with members such as turkey and Romania.

[takeo]

Well my advice is now to all the losing sides in the elections to block the streets and pick a cool colour and screw up the process, after all there are violations in every elections, the only elections where there were no violations were elections in countries like the USSR and Saddam's Iraq, For some Reason Europe and the US decided to fight the non-existent Russian demon and all methods are Good for this, and ironiclly enough they are not fighting the Russians on the front that is needed the most, The Chechen War, but hey Just a bunch of non-white Muslims...

The loosing candidate announced he won't accept the elections, and perhaps the separation referendum will go trough in Donetsk. In the meanwhile Iuchtchenko now will have to satisfy his voters (most of them will not benefit from neo-capitalist reforms), his liberal suporters, his communist supporters, his western supporters, his ultra-nationalist supporters, all at the same time and next year there are parliament elections.

Anyhow, I think the regime of Kutchma was a terrible corrupted and incapable regime, comparable to the Yeltsin-regime in Russia. That's why so many people voted for Iuchtchenko. On the other hand, a lot of people are afraid of Iuchtchenko's strong nationalist, pro-western and ultra-liberal supporters (altough not all of them, also many communists supported Iuchtchenko against the regime, you know "the ennemy of my ennemy is my friend"). I think mill is right: if Iutchenko presented himself as the anti-corruption mister white guy and distanciated himself from the nationalists and the West he might have won the hearts and minds of the east as well.

[takeo]

Again you like most people in the west get the media coverage of Hitler VS. Mother Theresa elections, I haven't seen such un-objective news coverage in my life and that's includes the goverment controled Russian press!

did you watch Fox television during the Iraq-war, or ANY western television during the Kosovo-war?

[takeo]

The main issue with the internal Ukranian divide and that of the Russian community (and many Russians in general) are the ultra-nationalistic crowds in the West of the country - the Carpathians. The West Ukranians have instituted the Ukranian language and are pushing strongly on "reviving" the "Ukranian" history and culture. The latter wouldn't be a bad thing if there wouldn't be tons of blood behind the history especially as it concerns us - the Jews.

The Western Ukranians in the twentieth century have created heros like Petlura and Bandera - the latter fought with the Nazis and was responsible for killing tens of thousands of Jews. The former was a civil war general also responsible for the death of tens of thousands of Jews. It also bugs many Russians who spilled their blood fighting against the Nazis and now the same Russians are pressed to support these ultra-nationalists from the West. I bet, and KSO might agree with me, if Yushenko would have distanced himself from the West he would get many more votes from the East given that most Ukranians (no matter of the ethnic belonging) support changes.

By the way Odessa, the largest "Jewish" city in CIS, has more then likely voted for Yanukovich or the government. Many residents are very apprehensive of the nationalists in the West.

There are many issues involved in this saga of the Ukraine that people in the West don't really understand or don't really know.

In any case - I hope there will be no pogroms.

I agree

[KSO]

did you watch Fox television during the Iraq-war, or ANY western television during the Kosovo-war?I'm talking about news that claim to be news, Fox is not news if you want to get info about world issues just as Der Shterimer is probably not the best source for news on jewish issues.
The coverage on Clinton & Nato massacre of Serbia in the name of an overweight unatractive girl? don't remember much but i do remember that was pretty unbalanced to but not like the recent ukraine coverage.

[Mediocrates]

I think you're probably a fascist, maybe not.

[Illuminatus]

How true.

[..The loosing candidate announced he won't accept the elections..]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4128941.stm

Well, that's what makes him a loser.

That's what losers do: refuse to accept the will of a democracy
where the people have spoken.

Ah yes, "Old Europe" - Kings, Socialists, Feudalism, Oligarchies,
Monarchs, and Facists.

Anything to hold on to power - anything.

√ Yushchenko: 52%
√ Yanukovych : 44%

[KettleWhistle]

Sharansky is the biggest idiot in the whole wide world period, if we'll have luck some leader will propose a peace plan in which Sharansky will be transfered to another country, or taken under UN costudy, and the country will save a couple of millions on dissolving his non-existent ministry.
Oh, please. He one of the few people actually willing to do SOMETHING useful. He should just dump Likud and join Shinui.

[KettleWhistle]

How many russians want to fight in Chechnia?
Last time I read about it more 70% of them supported the campaign. Apparently quite a few. But like I said, it is Russians' war, and not Jews' war. Our people have no reason whatsoever to risk their lives for Russia.

[Zlatorog]

I'm talking about news that claim to be news, Fox is not news if you want to get info about world issues just as Der Shterimer is probably not the best source for news on jewish issues.
The coverage on Clinton & Nato massacre of Serbia in the name of an overweight unatractive girl? don't remember much but i do remember that was pretty unbalanced to but not like the recent ukraine coverage.

It's not that Kosovo and Serbia were bombed, it's how they were bombed. The night the bombing started one could watch Chaplin's The Great Dictator on their TV. The news style "NATO criminals continued NATO-criminal tactics against Yugoslavia today" is similar to what is being posted on my favourite Bosniak web site today.

The RTS - Radio Television Serbia was bombed, they sued among others, the US and some other country were excluded from the start because of an ICJ ruling. A few random screenshots:

http://www.ljudmila.org/~woelle/lajka/war/83war/

If you have RealPlayer you can check out two tv channels http://www.rts.co.yu/

[Illuminatus]

China expresses "respect" to Ukraine's presidential result (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-12/28/content_2389038.htm)

Always good to hear that the commie Chinese "respect" a democratic
election somewhere else. Of course, so long as there isn't one in China.

After Mao's "Great Leap Forward" which starved more than 30 million
Chinese with their failed Socialist experiment,

--- "respect" is indeed refreshing.

[KSO]

China expresses "respect" to Ukraine's presidential result (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-12/28/content_2389038.htm)

Always good to hear that the commie Chinese "respect" a democratic
election somewhere else. Of course, so long as there isn't one in China.

After Mao's "Great Leap Forward" which starved more than 30 million
Chinese with their failed Socialist experiment,

--- "respect" is indeed refreshing.China are commies?! so George Bush is a radical communist...

[Illuminatus]

So you don't like the "commie" name -----

does The Glorious People's Republic of China sound any better?
http://www.chinaembassy.ru/rus/

[.. The people need continuous guidance and re-educaton or they will fall
into the capitalist trap. The people have no need for "things" - Communism
will provide everything. We Communists must guide the collective mind
of the people and educate the people that the individual is nothing,
gains nothing and will always be nothing. It is our glorious duty to
provide that guidance. ..]

Mao Tse Tung
"On Coalition Government" (April 24, 1951), Selected Works, Vol. III, p. 316.*
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/works/red-book/

[Mediocrates]

China are commies?! so George Bush is a radical communist...

Politically the PRC is still firmly big C Communist. Economically they are not.

[KSO]

Politically the PRC is still firmly big C Communist. Economically they are not.Politically they are just as any undemocratic Junta doing everything to stay in power, but it has nothing to do with communism.

[takeo]

China expresses "respect" to Ukraine's presidential result (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-12/28/content_2389038.htm)

Always good to hear that the commie Chinese "respect" a democratic
election somewhere else. Of course, so long as there isn't one in China.

After Mao's "Great Leap Forward" which starved more than 30 million
Chinese with their failed Socialist experiment,

--- "respect" is indeed refreshing.

perhaps you need to invade China, kill a few million Chinese, start a civil war, colonise their economy and than organise elections to which only a few regions will be able to participate. Now THAT's what all Chinese are waiting for.

[takeo]

Politically the PRC is still firmly big C Communist. Economically they are not.

Even economically they are, they are state capitalists but so were the soviets. Only, the chinese are much smarter than the soviets in organising their economy, use capitalist methods while continue to have a planned statist economy, AND in the meanwhile fool the americans with trade-relations which favor the chinese much more than the americans (or Europeans)

[takeo]

Politically they are just as any undemocratic Junta doing everything to stay in power, but it has nothing to do with communism.

now you're mentioning the putin-regime.

[MGB8]

perhaps you need to invade China, kill a few million Chinese, start a civil war, colonise their economy and than organise elections to which only a few regions will be able to participate. Now THAT's what all Chinese are waiting for.

LOL.

False parallels a plenty.

First, there is the fact that China does not have a Jihadist mentality, like Iraq did. Then you have Iraq's 17 out of 21 regions who will vote - I guess that is "some."

And then you go on to cheer the Chineese exploiting US trade policy, really more trade diplomacy by the "international-trade = internation-peace" group.

Wow.

[KSO]

now you're mentioning the putin-regime.
Also true, But if the 1.5 billion chinese and150 million Russians are happy with that who am i to speak...

[Illuminatus]

commie China is behaving very nicely thank you.

No record of invasions of its neighbors, mass-graves, gassing it's
own people, violating a cease fire, or even ignoring UNSC resolutions.

(unlike the mass-murderer that France and our forum Saddamites wanted
to keep in power longer)

----

Here's some excellent real-time photos of the Ukrainian electoral process. (http://www.postmodernclog.com/archives/cat_ukraine.html#000891)

3rd photo?

Yes Axis of Weasels (including Putin), you can blame the USA,
we proudly accept it.

[takeo]

LOL.

False parallels a plenty.

First, there is the fact that China does not have a Jihadist mentality, like Iraq did. Then you have Iraq's 17 out of 21 regions who will vote - I guess that is "some."

And then you go on to cheer the Chineese exploiting US trade policy, really more trade diplomacy by the "international-trade = internation-peace" group.

Wow.

Iraq didn't have a jihadist mentality either UNTILL the invasion. Chinese can be pretty savage as well when faced with foreign intervention, remember the "Boxer-revolution"? The only reason why China could prosper and reverse the trade-relations in their benefit was because it freed itself of foreign intervention and Chinese became strong and united, as opposed to the Arabs. The greatest achievement of Mao was that he united China, told all those medieval mandarines as well as the foreigners (japanese, Russians, Germans, French, Americans, English (who put signs in Shangai parcs "no dogs or Chinse allowed) to back down and accept the "new China" or disappear. That's exactly what the Arab world needs.
And I would be surprised if the majority turns up in all of those 17 regions...

[takeo]

Also true, But if the 1.5 billion chinese and150 million Russians are happy with that who am i to speak...

exactly

[takeo]

Yanukovych -- Left, Right or Nowhere?
WRY asked a good question in the comments section:

"Isn't Yakunovych counted as of the left, in a sort of conservative communist way?"
In one sense, sure. . . He definitely inherited the Communist approach to leadership. Also, as WRY pointed out, a lot of the people longing for the glory days of the USSR are backing him.

But in other senses, it would be unjust to pin someone like Yanukovych on the Left. I don't think either the Right or the Left can fairly be saddled with a goat like him.

He's no Leftist, in that he and his ilk are utterly non-ideological. Further, they have no commitment to nationalizing the economy or social or economic levelling.

He's no conservative, because that would require belief in the rule of law, the sanctity of contracts, and decentralized government.

I use two terms when trying to explain the old system here -- politico-economic tribalism and Pragmatic Kleptocracy.

Politico-economic tribalism captures the clan-based spoils system of Ukraine. When you hear about the oligarchs, you're probably imagining a few marquee names like Pinchuk or Akhmetov. But the system is more complex than that. For example, Kuchma's group, the Dnepropetrovsk Clan, contains about 200 businessmen. The purpose of government is to bring home spoils for your tribe, through legislation, subsidies, and sweetheart privatization deals.

Pragmatic Kleptocracy points up the rule-by-thieves nature of the system, and its total lack of principle, ideology or even ideas.

Whether it be the fact of modern Robber Barons or the shades of Communist repression they evoke, there's something for both good Leftists and Conservatives to hate in the oligarchs.

that's right they're just a bunch of opportunistic thieves, siding with the West when it serves them, siding with Russia when it serves them.
Kutchma's regime is comparable to the regime of Shevarnadze or Yeltsin, not to the regimes of Putin or Lukashenko, who are indeed fighting against corruption in stead of organising it.




Posted by Discoshaman at 12:31 AM | Comments (10) | TrackBack
décembre 13, 2004
the Party's over
One of the underreported stories of the 2004 elections here in Ukraine was the continued implosion of the Left. The highest-polling Leftist was Moroz at 5.83% -- ironic, in that he's a member of the largely free-market opposition.

election year aggregate Leftist vote tally
2000 44.5%
2002 30.07%

2004 12.4%



The big news may come in the 2006 parliamentary elections. With the new system of total proportional voting, a party will need 4% to gain a place in the Rada. If present trends continue, you really might see a Ukrainian government devoid of Communists. A tragedy, undoubtedly.

That's because the regime oppressed leftwing opposition during the 90's. Only biberals such as Iuchtchenko who were not yet threatening the regime (he was even appointed prime minister for a while) could oppose the government, because they were not yet considered as a threat. Iuchtchenko was the candidate of both the leftwing and the rightwing opposition, now he'll have to satisfy everyone and if he fails, and political repression ceases, I think the left will have a new chance of winning the elections.

in Georgia (where there is a general nostalgia for the Soviet Union and you can find pictures of Stalin everywhere, on busses, in streets, etc.) I know many communists who voted for Sakashvili because he had the best chances to beat the regime that totally destroyed the country.

[KettleWhistle]

What is considered left and right, or liberal and concervative differs by the country. Yushenko is deemed liberal, however in most countries his stances would be considered conservative due to nationalistic elements.



Kutchma's regime is comparable to the regime of Shevarnadze or Yeltsin, not to the regimes of Putin or Lukashenko, who are indeed fighting against corruption in stead of organising it.
LOL

[Illuminatus]

Yanukovych resigns as Ukraine prime minister (http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/12/31/ukraine031231.html)

[..Viktor Yanukovych announced Friday that he will resign as Ukraine's prime minister after losing to opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko in the rerun of the presidential election. ..]

Happy New Year!!!! (http://www.eviennas-gemaelde.de/2005.htm)
^
^
^

[takeo]

Leonid Kuchma, Ukraine's outgoing president, upstaged Viktor Yushchenko, Orange Revolution leader, on Monday by ordering an early withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from Iraq.



Mr Kuchma announced the decision shortly before the Central Election Commission formally anointed Mr Yushchenko as president-elect. Mr Kuchma's order was made in response to the deaths of eight Ukrainian soldiers in an explosion in Iraq at the weekend, but it pre-empted Mr Yushchenko, who had made withdrawal from Iraq one of his key campaign promises.


Although his presidential campaign had US backing, Mr Yushchenko had accused Mr Kuchma of pandering to the Bush government in an attempt to soften its criticism of his regime.

Mr Yushchenko, a pro-western liberal who has pledged to improve ties with the US and the European Union, won a re-run presidential election last month. He won 52 per cent of the vote against 44 per cent for Viktor Yanukovich, the Russian-backed former prime minister, according to the country's election commission, which formalised the results last night. Mr Yushchenko reiterated his pledge to pull out Ukraine's 1,600 troops from Iraq on Sunday, soon after the explosion, and also promised personally to oversee an investigation, which a defence ministry spokesman said had uncovered evidence of possible sabotage. Olexander Kuzmuk, the outgoing defence minister, said in a televised address that one battalion of Ukrainian troops would be withdrawn in March or April, with the rest coming home two to three months after that.

Although Mr Yanukovich resigned as prime minister last week, his ministers remain in their jobs and continue to take directions from Mr Kuchma, who has clung to the presidency despite having been forced to abandon his offices in central Kiev in November by the Orange Revolution's massive street protests.

Mr Yanukovich has managed to hold up the transfer of power to Mr Yushchenko by filing numerous appeals to the Supreme Court. Mr Yanukovich maintains that he legitimately won the right to be president in an earlier election in November that the Supreme Court ruled was spoiled by fraud.

Mr Yanukovich's campaign chief promised also to appeal against last night's results ruling, in what would be the final obstacle to Mr Yushchenko's inauguration, which his spokeswoman said could be held as early as Sunday. Mr Yushchenko would then need parliament to confirm a new prime minister, who he is expected to name later this week.


http://news.ft.com/cms/s/07c6b87e-6335-11d9-bec2-00000e2511c8,dwp_uuid=45f925a0-340a-11d9-a728-00000e2511c8.html


yeah, I hope you're not too disappointed, illuminatus, get over it, a bottle of vodka will do... yes, I think the Ukrainian people made the right choice, you are right illuminatus! Looks like the axis of dictators, crooks and warmongerers lost another member...

[MGB8]

How disgusting. Not one care about the stability of Iraq or the people there, who certainly do lack security, and a nation that would errupt into violent civil war if foreign forces leave. Just a desire to see the US "lose," no matter how many lives that costs.

Disgusting. It makes you want to spit.

[Illuminatus]

Come now MGB8, didn't Saddam himself enjoy the life of the disgusting with his rape rooms and mass-graves?

It's quite normal for Saddamites don't you think? The Ukrainian Army now in Iraq have been brave and honorable and the Iraqi people owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

Let's not forget that the Ukraine had announced it's withdrawal several months ago to coincide with the elections. So there's nothing new here. These are are not Zapatero Spaniards surrendering to Islamo-terrorism.

One more thing.

According to this report from the UPI from a few minutes ago:

Diplomat: Ukraine may not pull out troops (http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050111-113859-1881r.htm)


New President Viktor Yushchenko may rescind the order to withdraw soldiers, the diplomat said, declining to be named for security reasons. Ukraine does not want to be seen as reacting negatively to the country's continued violence, he said. Yushchenko made troop withdrawal a campaign pledge, however.

"This is not just a problem for us, it's a problem for the Iraq people," the diplomat said, standing at the gate of an embassy in a residential neighborhood protected by 15-foot-high concrete walls and armed men. "We support American troops, so this isn't simple."

Regardless. The brave Ukrainian people have stood shoulder-to-shoulder with a coalition that freed Iraq. They were on the right side of history, against a mass-murderer. Unlike our "Disgusting" forum Saddamites, they don't have to be ashamed when speaking to an Iraqi and hide the fact they wanted Saddam Hussein to remain in power.

If they do leave (the Ukrainians) , they do so with their head held high.

[takeo]

Yuchenko has always said Ukrainian troops should leave Iraq, and he made it one of his key propaganda items. According to your definition he thus belongs to the "axis of weasels". And about Ukrain not supporting Saddam:

British and American investigators have met senior officials in the Ukraine following allegations that the country sold a military radar system to Iraq.

"During today's talks, the Western investigators and the Ukrainians agreed the ground rules for what's expected to be a 10-day inquiry.

The British and American team will be able to visit the military bases where Ukraine's radar systems are located and the factory where the equipment i's manufactured.

After the meeting, President Kuchma's chief of staff, Viktor Medvedchuk, promised Ukraine's full co-operation.

He said Ukraine was very worried by the charges that it had aided Saddam Hussein.

If the Kolchuga radar system has been transferred to Iraq, it would enhance the country's air defences.

The Kolchuga is able to detect incoming aircraft without the pilot's realizing -- a great concern for Britain and America as they contemplate a possible conflict with Iraq. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2325223.stm

Once it appeared the UK and US could offer more money than Saddam or Russia, Kuchma changed sides and instead supported the "coalition of the willing to pay bribes" which upset Russia. Yuchtchenko has always condemned Ukrainian involvement in Iraq, wether with Saddam or with the US.

France, nor any of the countries you hate so much (except Russia) have ever directly helped Saddam during the last decade, but Ukrain did.

Personally I didn't do anything to help the Iraqi peope, except breaching the embargo when I was there in 1999. Altough it's on a small scale, I'm still proud I did so, and smuggled illegal items such as paper, books and 2 computers over the Jordanian border (bribing the Jordanian guards, which was more like a formality since they seemed quite used to it).

[Semsem]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1105418785129

Jan. 11, 2005 22:08
Putin's claims strain Israeli-Russian relations
By JPOST.COM STAFF







Russian President Vladimir Putin's claim that Israeli officials aided Ukrainian opposition candidate Viktor Yuschenko on the campaign trail has led to a serious break in Russian-Israeli relations, Channel 2 TV reported Tuesday evening.

Putin further accused Israel of financing Yuschenko in the presidential race against Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, the candidate he preferred.

The Russian president claimed that the Israeli government could have prevented the financial sponsorship of Yuschenko. Putin's close associates additionally charged Israel of supporting the Russian opposition.

Israel denies the charges, the Channel 2 report noted.

[KettleWhistle]

Personally I didn't do anything to help the Iraqi peope, except breaching the embargo when I was there in 1999. Altough it's on a small scale, I'm still proud I did so, and smuggled illegal items such as paper, books and 2 computers over the Jordanian border (bribing the Jordanian guards, which was more like a formality since they seemed quite used to it). These people also took pride in what they done: http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery/11548.htm

[Mil]

Israel briefed U.S. on crisis with Russia

By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent



Israel reported to the American administration on the recent crisis in its relations with Russia. Israel did not ask the United States to intervene in solving the problem that caused the crisis to erupt, even though the Americans dealt with this matter in the past.



Consultations held by the political echelon in Jerusalem resulted in a decision to attempt to solve the problem through direct talks with Moscow, and not to get help from the U.S. for the time being.

Tension is mounting in Jerusalem ahead of Syrian President Bashar Assad's first visit to Moscow, on January 24. Assad will meet with President Vladimir Putin and discuss bilateral cooperation in various fields. Putin is scheduled to meet with U.S. President George W. Bush about a month later in Slovakia.

As reported in Haaretz last week, the crisis in Israeli-Russian relations was the focus of a special meeting that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon convened 10 days ago with Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and the heads of the intelligence community. The meeting ended with the Foreign Ministry being assigned to take charge of reviewing the matter and suggesting ways of resolving the problem.

A first discussion took place early this week at the Foreign Ministry, with representatives of all relevant branches in attendance, but no recommendations have been submitted yet to the political echelon.

Political sources in Jerusalem Tuesday denied the Channel 2 news report that the reason for the diplomatic crisis is Putin's anger over alleged intervention in the Ukrainian elections by people in Israel, and their support for his political rivals. (Mil: Imagine that!!!!! - Bandera, Petlura, and the rest of their heros are probably turning in their graves by now). The political sources said the problem stemmed from something completely different which concerns Russia's conduct.

[KettleWhistle]

British and American investigators have met senior officials in the Ukraine following allegations that the country sold a military radar system to Iraq. But the following AP article gives a somewhat different perspective on the issue:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050111/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_transition_1 Mykola Tomenko, a lawmaker and Yushchenko ally, called on Kuchma to ensure round-the-clock guarding of Viktor Medvedchuk, Kuchma's chief of staff, Satsyuk and other top members of Kuchma's staff to ensure that they are available to "testify about everything that happened in this country."

The question of whether Kuchma will receive any special immunity is also still up in the air, with some of Yushchenko's allies — such as Yulia Tymoshenko, who is tipped as the likely future prime minister — saying he must be held responsible "for everything that he did with the country."

Kuchma is alleged to have been involved in the murder of an opposition journalist and to have sold radar systems to Iraq (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_transition/13954769/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/ap/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_transition/13954769/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Iraq)) in violation of international sanctions.

[Toga]

is not it typical...?

When they hate the outcome they blame the Jews. "Goyim kill
goyim, and they come to hang the Jews." Menachem Begin

[KSO]

is not it typical...?

When they hate the outcome they blame the Jews. "Goyim kill
goyim, and they come to hang the Jews." Menachem Begin
No worry those who hanged Jews won, all hail democracy and progress.

[KettleWhistle]

This is why I say that Jews have no good reason for living in Russia, or Ukraine, for that matter.

[Toga]

No worry those who hanged Jews won, all hail democracy and progress.

Yeah...sure...the Central Asia is a big mess, Ukraine and the Baltics are alligned with the West, there is a conflict in Georgia, Moldova, Turkmenistan, etc., Chechnya breeds terror, Chinese are slowly taking over Siberia..etc. etc. and the richest Jew is still in jail.

Some progress!

[Toga]

This is why I say that Jews have no good reason for living in Russia, or Ukraine, for that matter.

LOL...you are right. Who said that Jews are smart?

[KettleWhistle]

LOL...you are right. Who said that Jews are smart?
The smart ones got the hell out of there. Or make tons of money while their families live elsewhere.

But then there are always "tysiyachniki."

[Leon]

what took him so long, the blame for the Tsunami was even quicker

[KSO]

The smart ones got the hell out of there. Or make tons of money while their families live elsewhere.

But then there are always "tysiyachniki."
You know this ancient joke...
The main Rabby of a small town in Russia called to all the men in the town to come to the synagogue, then he anounces "My Friends we live with the Russians for many centuries, and yet they hate our guts, I think we should try and understand them we should study them and try to reach out for them, So tommorow each one of you should bring a bottle of Vodka, we will pour it into a huge pot, and then we all get realy realy drunk, maybe that will help us to understand how Russians live"
Well Haim Goes home, and tel her what the rabby said and orders her to go and buy a bottle of vodka, but his wife says "Listen Haim, everybody will bring vodka tommorow so why should we spend money, take an empty bottle fill it with water pour it into the big pot and no one will notice it"
Haim accepted his wife offer and went to the synagogue with a bottle of Vodka filled with water, he poured it into the giant pot together with all the rest, The Rabby came took a glass filled it up and took a sip, than he understood that whole pot is filled with water, "And that's my friends is why everybody hates us"

[KettleWhistle]

LOL... haven't heard that one, but it is rather easy to understand Russians, no vodka needed. About 20% of them are good and decent people. About 40% hate anyone who does any better than they do. And I'm talking about fickle, malicious hatred here. They'd rather mess things up for you to make you miserable than move a finger to improve themselves. And the remaining 40% are somewhere in-between. That's it.

[KettleWhistle]

what took him so long, the blame for the Tsunami was even quicker
Well, you can't really sober up right away, can you?

[Mediocrates]

The last time I checked, the Ukraine was not part of Russia anymore so Kommissar Putin's own intervention in Ukrainian politics is tantamount to an attempted coup.

[Mediocrates]

Of course this comes from the very people who conspired with the Ukranian secret service to murder the opposition candidate.

[Mediocrates]

Most newspapers are reporting that this is in relation to a long delayed Russian plan to sell advanced SRBM missile systems to Syria. The designation is SS-26 Iskander and the deal was held off until a successful test last summer.


The SS-26 Iskander is an export grade solid booster theater missile which has a 300km range and is nuclear capable. It is also one of the most accurate missiles in the Russian arsenal. The Russians have already sold them to Iran and intend to sell them to other middle east states as well:

http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/exports/general/expmsl.htm

ISKANDER-M/ISKANDER-E [SS-26 'Stone']
The Iskander-M/Iskander-E is a short range ballistic missile (SRBM) designed for tactical battlefield use. The Russian military version is known as the Iskander-M and the export version is known as the Iskander-E. Created by the Design Bureau of Machine Building (KBM) (http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/delivry/kbm.htm) in Kolomna, the Iskander-M/Iskander-E has its origins in the Oka-U project which was first started in 1984 as an upgrade of the 9K714 Oka [NATO designation SS-23 'Spider'], but was discontinued in accordance with INF Treaty (http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/treaties/infdescr.htm) requirements. Further development of the Iskander-M/Iskander-E began in the 1990s under the project name 'Tender' using the information and technology from the Oka-U design.[1] The Iskander-E was first displayed at the MAKS-99 air show in 1999 in Zhukovskiy, near Moscow.[2] On 3 October 2001 testing for the Iskander-E was reported completed, while testing of the domestic Iskander-M version was reported to be continuing.[3]

The Iskander-E is a solid-fueled, single-stage SRBM with a maximum range of 280km and a warhead payload of 480kg. It adheres to MTCR (http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/fulltext/regimes/mtcr/factsht.htm) restrictions that limit missiles to a range of 300km and a payload of 500kg.[4] The domestic Iskander-M version is expected to have a longer range of approximately 400km and a larger warhead up to 700kg.[1] The Iskander-E has a launch weight of 3,800kg and is deployed on a transporter erector launcher (TEL) vehicle that carries two missiles. The missiles can reportedly be launched within a minute of each other.[4]

Syria, Iran, and Jordan have shown open interest in purchasing the Iskander-E.[5,6,7] KBM director Nikolay Gushchin has stated that Russia will also seek to export the Iskander-E to Algeria, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Singapore, Vietnam, Malaysia, and South Korea.[8] The state tests are to be completed in which is planned for 2003, and following their completion the Iskander-M is expected to be deployed by the Russian military.[9]

Iskander-E Missile Characteristics [1,4] Length (m)7.3Diameter (m).92Range (km)280Launch Weight (kg)3,800Payload (kg)480Sources:
[1] Steve J. Zaloga, "Son of Scud," Journal of Military Ordnance, Vol. 10, No. 2, March 2000, p.28-30.
[2] Dmitriy Litovkin, "Kolomna is surprising the world. The time is ripe for a revolution in the market for technical systems," Krasnaya zvezda, 18 March 2000, p. 6; in "New Products at 'Mashinostroyeniya'," FBIS Document CEP20000317000289.
[3] ITAR-TASS, 3 October 2001; in "Russia tests export version of Iskander missile system," FBIS Document CEP20011003000179.
[4] Sergey Sokut, "Innovation: Iskander-E Attacks the Rivals: Russia's Leading Role in the Surface-to-Surface Class of Missile Weaponry Is Being Restored," Nezavisimoye voyennoye obozreniye, 1-7 October 1999, No. 38, p. 6; in "Tech Specs of Iskander-E Missile System," FBIS Document FTS19991007001708.
[5] Igor Korotchenko, "Russian Federation Will Strengthen Damascus' Military Potential. Over Next Few Years Russian Arms Shipments to Syria Will Rise to $1 Billion," Nezavisimaya gazeta, 24 May 2001, p. 6; in "Syrian Defense Minister To Discuss Military-Technical Cooperation in Moscow," FBIS Document CEP20010542000148.
[6] "Russian military say cooperation with Iran good for regional stability," ITAR-TASS, 5 October 2001; in "Russia: Military 'sources' say cooperation with Iran good for regional stability," FBIS Document CEP20011005000395.
[7] "Russia Has Little Hope For Jordan Purchase," Middle East Newsline, Vol. 3, No. 340, 29 August 2001.
[8] "Russia Wants To Sell Multi-Warhead Missiles To M.E.," Middle East Newsline, Vol. 2, No. 114, 22 March 2000.
[9] Agentstsvo voyennykh novostey, 22 May 2002; in "State tests of two missile systems to be completed in 2003," FBIS Document CEP20020522000087.{Entered 4/19/02 RG}


See also:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/ss-26.htm



Note that this missile system in particular prompted the US to propose scrapping the Global GPS system since it uses GPS to acquire its accuracy.

[minusthejihad]

You know this ancient joke...
The main Rabby of a small town in Russia called to all the men in the town to come to the synagogue, then he anounces "My Friends we live with the Russians for many centuries, and yet they hate our guts, I think we should try and understand them we should study them and try to reach out for them, So tommorow each one of you should bring a bottle of Vodka, we will pour it into a huge pot, and then we all get realy realy drunk, maybe that will help us to understand how Russians live"
Well Haim Goes home, and tel her what the rabby said and orders her to go and buy a bottle of vodka, but his wife says "Listen Haim, everybody will bring vodka tommorow so why should we spend money, take an empty bottle fill it with water pour it into the big pot and no one will notice it"
Haim accepted his wife offer and went to the synagogue with a bottle of Vodka filled with water, he poured it into the giant pot together with all the rest, The Rabby came took a glass filled it up and took a sip, than he understood that whole pot is filled with water, "And that's my friends is why everybody hates us"

This is the kind of humor that inspired us to move the hell out of the FSU. How coincidental that the country fell apart several years after the huge Jewish departure. Live in your squalor, corrupt, filthy swine known as Russians.

[takeo]

LOL...you are right. Who said that Jews are smart?

Actually many Russians Jews who became Israeli citizens RETURNED to Russia.

[takeo]

LOL... haven't heard that one, but it is rather easy to understand Russians, no vodka needed. About 20% of them are good and decent people. About 40% hate anyone who does any better than they do. And I'm talking about fickle, malicious hatred here. They'd rather mess things up for you to make you miserable than move a finger to improve themselves. And the remaining 40% are somewhere in-between. That's it.

hmm, I think in russia, as anywhere else, YOUR behavior matters as well. And especially in russia, they expect you to act as them, and accept their invitations (and get very drunk as well). The rewards you get and hospitality from Russians however is unlike any wellcome in the rest of the world. And indeed they hate the "new Russians" with all their guts. I think about 95% supports the imprisonment of Khodorkovsky and the exile of Berezovsky. But it doesn't mean they are antisemitic, they just hate people who took advantage of Russian troubles to get disgustingly rich and cheated everyone. I think next on the list will be Tatyana Yeltsin... and she isn't Jewish