A case of split personality?

[Vic]

My fellow Muslims, we must fight anti-Semitism

In France, Muslim intellectuals and religious leaders have come out against attacks on Jews and Jewish religious institutions. Outstanding among them is Tariq Ramadan, who explains his beliefs.

http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=168205&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=168205

[L@mplighterM]

I don?t really know if this is a large division among Muslims and in any event when I read the article I saw that he left the door open to violence against Jews.

Part of Article:

Even when he identifies urges that have their source in economic distress and social frustration, or the desire to protest against Israel's oppressive policy, among people who express themselves in an anti-Semitic way and are involved in anti-Semitic acts, Ramadan refuses to demonstrate understanding or forgiveness toward them. He says: "The social and political forces in the Muslim communities must act to educate toward the delegitimization of elements of anti-Semitism. Leaders and imams have the responsibility to disseminate an unequivocal message about the profound connections between Islam and Judaism and Islam's recognition of Moses and the Torah."



This paragraph states clearly in part that he understands why they commit the acts but he disagrees with their actions.

What he?s saying is ?I understand what you do and why you do it but it?s wrong.?

Quite frankly I?ve never been able to understand the reasoning of psychopaths (suicide bombers, people defacing synagogues, etc.) To me they are psychopaths and they do what they do without reasoning or logic.


Then he drifts into the Koran and states that it recognizes Moses and the Torah.

[Pushtak18]

Tariq doesn't really bring pleasant words after 2 years of non-stop anti-semetic incidents that occured in france.


You cannot just tell a teenager who has the intent to commit a crime against jews to stop. We are not talking about angry adults here. We are talking about muslims who come from the 'gutter' of france society. We are talking about muslims who are 1st generation and whom have probably been born in a North Arican/Middle eastern country but then fled in the early ages. I am not talking about the average joe.

Tariq needs to see that there has to be a cooperation between jews and muslims. A sort of unity. He doesn't express that. He expresses a need to do a 'mini-intifhada' but to also stop attacking innnocent jews.

Kinda sounds like Arafat to me.

[Vic]

The curious part of it is that if Ramadan is sincere about his condemnation of antisemitism then he undermines the so-called "criticism of Israel". It's a fact of life in this part of the world that hardly anyone would give a damn about Palestinians, were it not that the presumable concern for their plight would offer such a convenient channel for voicing anti-jewish resentment. Take it away, deny it the publicity it enjoys at present, and in a short time the whole issue will be forgotten, Israel will be a kind of Afghanistan to the general public - which makes me wonder what Ramadan really wants to achieve.

The best explanation I can think of is healthy pragmatism: antisemitism is for immigrant communities a waste of valuable time and effort, which could be much better employed to advance the causes of immediate concern for them, such as legal and social issues in the countries they actually live in.

[Pushtak18]

Tariq Ramdan is just like any other Islamic moderate scholar. He trys to bring peace and abundance, but his words don't mean a thing unless you do action and convice his people to stop the madness.


What is the palestinians fight anyways?
I think that the main reason why the palestinians are still strugguling is because that there brothers and sisters, weather they live under harsh lives in Saudi arabia or not, dont give a damn about them. Now after September 2000, it seems that there is a Soap Opera about the palestinians.


No one really cares?

[takeo]

"You cannot just tell a teenager who has the intent to commit a crime against jews to stop. We are not talking about angry adults here. We are talking about muslims who come from the 'gutter' of france society. We are talking about muslims who are 1st generation and whom have probably been born in a North Arican/Middle eastern country but then fled in the early ages. I am not talking about the average joe. "

that's right
however there is cooperation between Jews and Arabs, at least in france, but as well among leftist Palestinians and leftist Israeli. this should be a model for the whole region.
of course the reason for antiisraeli feelings of most arabs is not anti-semitism but the tremendous suffering of the palestinians (not comparable at all to the israeli suffering), if you fail to see this you are blind. we have had much discussion about this issue and never the opponents could proove their theory that anti-israel = anti-semitism

[Pushtak18]

takeo,


first of all, if you look carefully...you would see that an avegage pro-palestinian protest is not ALL PALESTINIANS, there are other people from Algeria, indonesia and whatever.....i sometimes suppose if there is any?

But you have to understand that not all Palestiians are left and nor the Israelis are. How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews?

Would talk end a youth group being beaten by bats?

It always happened, its about understanding! And people always noted that the powerhouses such as Mosques and schools teach it.

its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim?

Is that justifiable?

[takeo]

"How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews? "

not because they're jews, but because they violated all kinds of international laws, and occupied and cleansed almost a whole population. If they would have been Argentines it wouldn't have been any different.



"its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim? "

i don't know, maybe the fundamentalists would but not the main-stream.
it is certainly politics, but not baseless. It is about the life of millions of palestinians.

[Pushtak18]

Originally Posted by Takeo
"How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews? "

not because they're jews, but because they violated all kinds of international laws, and occupied and cleansed almost a whole population. If they would have been Argentines it wouldn't have been any different.



"its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim? "

i don't know, maybe the fundamentalists would but not the main-stream.
it is certainly politics, but not baseless. It is about the life of millions of palestinians.


1st off, whos we....are u accusing a French jew, who has never been to Israel, and has had familys anywhere but israel, mainly in French an occupier? How can accuse someone who is french, but due to his beliefs he has the right to take bats and knifes when attacked by morrocan muslim youths just because he was playing for the "MACCABI JEWISH SOCCER TEAM"...thats not justified, that pure racist content....


How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm :mad: Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country.

If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!!
I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?

[takeo]

hey man cool down, you don't seem to have read what i wrote...
it seems you took more propaganda than your health could take...


"1st off, whos we....are u accusing a French jew, who has never been to Israel, and has had familys anywhere but israel, mainly in French an occupier? How can accuse someone who is french, but due to his beliefs he has the right to take bats and knifes when attacked by morrocan muslim youths just because he was playing for the "MACCABI JEWISH SOCCER TEAM"...thats not justified, that pure racist content.... "

1) I have been to israel
2)i have not been attacked and i certainly don't think that anyone has the right to attack someone because of his religion.

"How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country. "

3) no, being Jewish is certainly not a crime, nor is being Muslim or Palestinian a crime
4) israel violated all kinds of un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions and some other international law. This has nothing to do with religion, anyone in similar position would be condamned, including indonesia occupying eastern timor.

"If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!! "

5) no of course so, you didn't read what i wrote. However this Eastern timor citizen would have the right to fight the indonesian army and indonesia was equally condamned for occupying Eastern timor.

"I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?"

a place for the Palestinians as well, who (used to) live in that same land as well.

[Iori Yagami]

Ugh, you frenchies are the last people on the surface of that planet that can accuse others of breaking international law. What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? Marrocco? The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean? The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was? Or was that a jewish plot too? The frequent attacks on jews in France? The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah?
And after all that, you come here, and whine. Bleh.

[takeo]

i see that you prefere to insult instead of going into a reasonable dialogue

"What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? "

many, many French were opposed to that war, and actually france let go algeria, after both algeria and france suffered a lot, the same israel will let go of palestine some day.


"The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean?"

what about the nuclear bombs of israel, a country not allowed to have nuclear weapons according to proliferation-agreements?

" The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was?"

I see you heard something about this in your propaganda-source. Vichy was a treatorous puppet-government set up in the South of france by the occupying nazi's, the only chance it could survive was by massive german military presence. But the French fought the nazi's as much as palestinians are fighting the israeli occupation, and many french risked their life to save jews from the germans or to do "terrorist acts" as you would call it against the nazi-occupier.


"The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah? "

Yes you are right, actually Chirac is the president of hisbollah :rolleyes:

[Pushtak18]

Originally posted by Takeo

"How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country. "

3) no, being Jewish is certainly not a crime, nor is being Muslim or Palestinian a crime
4) israel violated all kinds of un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions and some other international law. This has nothing to do with religion, anyone in similar position would be condamned, including indonesia occupying eastern timor.

"If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!! "

5) no of course so, you didn't read what i wrote. However this Eastern timor citizen would have the right to fight the indonesian army and indonesia was equally condamned for occupying Eastern timor.

"I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?"

a place for the Palestinians as well, who (used to) live in that same land as well


If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that. When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it.

Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass...

No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......

[Pushtak18]

Originally Posted by Takeo
see that you prefere to insult instead of going into a reasonable dialogue

"What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? "

many, many French were opposed to that war, and actually france let go algeria, after both algeria and france suffered a lot, the same israel will let go of palestine some day.


"The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean?"

what about the nuclear bombs of israel, a country not allowed to have nuclear weapons according to proliferation-agreements?

" The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was?"

I see you heard something about this in your propaganda-source. Vichy was a treatorous puppet-government set up in the South of france by the occupying nazi's, the only chance it could survive was by massive german military presence. But the French fought the nazi's as much as palestinians are fighting the israeli occupation, and many french risked their life to save jews from the germans or to do "terrorist acts" as you would call it against the nazi-occupier.


"The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah? "

Yes you are right, actually Chirac is the president of hisbollah



to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it. The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away.

2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe

as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin.

But for your knowledge, and to make your topic more 'spicier' let me just say a few words about the good'ol French Nuclear program, because if you thought your little country is safe and happy, think again!
the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that.
Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!!

So thers my 2 cents!

[takeo]

"If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that."

no single Jew in france is fearing for his life

" When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it. "

actually Chirac never had to fight for his reelection, he got 83% of the votes in the second round... Le Pen is just a phenomenon for people who are unhappy with some things, so they vote for an extremist, it happens everywhere in Europe as well as in the States and Israel.

"Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass... "

Indonesia was condamned by several un-resolutions for violating the geneva-conventions and for occupying Eastern timor, i have no sympathy at all for the indonesian politics. France condamned indonesia several times as well. Also Amnesty International condamned indonesia without cessation, not only once. The problem was that indonesia dictator Suharto, as Israel, was protected by the us, so the un couldn't take any real sanctions against indonesia.

No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......


"to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it."

they very much care for it, we all know that many israeli resist the israeli government policy against the palestinians.

"The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. "

Israel only offered some isolated islands to the Palestinians, "bantustans" as in South africa. The goal of Oslo was an independant palestinian state and also israel had to end its colonisation-policy, but Netanyahu didn't agree to the oslo-process from day one, and did not commit himself to execute the oslo-agreements. Camp david 2000 was not acceptable to the palestinians because mainly no solution was found for millions of refugees and becase the palestinian state wouldn't have an own border with Jordan.

"But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away. "

you are right about hamas and jihad, they never wanted peace, as well as some israeli radical politicians! But they don't represent the majority of the palestinian people. only 20% support hamas according to polls, more or less 20% of israeli support extremist parties as well.

"2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe "


:mad: the nuclear bomb isn't a joke, millions of people can be killed, and some nuclear bombs can destroy israel completely. i think if israel would have used it it would mean the end of Israel, because countries as Iran and pakistan have nuclear weapons too and will certainly use it when israel launches the first bomb on a muslim country. By the way bombing Syria with nuclear bombs in 1973 would certainly have provoked a soviet reaction, Syria was an ally of the SU. It would have been easier to give back the golan to syria than to use the nuclear bomb wouldn't it?
according to international agreements israel nor any other country than china, US, SU, france, GB had the right to produce nuclear bombs.
if israel feels the right to produce nuclear bombs because it feels treatened than iraq, Libanon and Syria have that right too, they feel treatened as well.


"as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin. "

maybe so, but the us gave nuclear weapons to israel, so who's blaming who?

"the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that. "

the us did the same in the bikini-islands in the pacific ocean, and as well in the nevada-desert.

"Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!! "

LOL,
what you are referring to happened in the 80's not in 1994/95, it is regrettable, but this kind of practises is business as usual for the mossad,,who specialise in killing people by car-bombs, and the israeli army who even kill stone-trowing children.
I can tell you one thing, if israel would ever attack France it will look like ground-zero within seconds.
we treat the arabs here properly and as normal citizens so they don't feel any need to "sodomise" france.

[Pushtak18]

Orginally posted by Takeo
"If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that."

no single Jew in france is fearing for his life

" When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it. "

actually Chirac never had to fight for his reelection, he got 83% of the votes in the second round... Le Pen is just a phenomenon for people who are unhappy with some things, so they vote for an extremist, it happens everywhere in Europe as well as in the States and Israel.

"Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass... "

Indonesia was condamned by several un-resolutions for violating the geneva-conventions and for occupying Eastern timor, i have no sympathy at all for the indonesian politics. France condamned indonesia several times as well. Also Amnesty International condamned indonesia without cessation, not only once. The problem was that indonesia dictator Suharto, as Israel, was protected by the us, so the un couldn't take any real sanctions against indonesia.

No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......




For your first argument about jews & France. When you tell me that no jew is fearing for there life in France, than my friend, that is a baseless lie. Perhaps even a propaganda. When you have a jew who 'fear' of wearing a religon head cap, or having anything related to jew, than that i call fear. When you have death threats about possible bombing of a synagogue, than that is a threat. To tell me that Jews are safe and sound in France is a propostrous idea that only one can ever think of.

secondly, about Chirac.......The voting was pretty much intresting. Because of the fact that Chirac internally, and externally made many problems, He lost alot of support. Le Pen came in, because he promised to fix gaps that Chirac could not fix. Yes; he is racist, but the fact is, that so is Chirac. Chirac is baseless and arrogant, and I think the French public we're rather blind because both of these men are nothing mroe than "bastards", except for the fact that Chirac became overwhelmingly scared when his Foe, Le Pen made it to the 2nd round. He decided to make media sponsored rallied in every french capital denouncing Le Pen, and ofcourse Le Pen hates French and Muslims so he got a good 5 million supporters there. But the matter of the point is that no one heard Le Pen and what he was going to do? what did you get out of Chirac?

lastly, about Indonesia...
No! There was not even one Islamic state that condemend it. Yes, they were UN resolutions pass forth, but none in which put blame and condemend Indonesia for one thing that they commited, All the UN resoultion asked for was for a peace aggreement and a solution to the problem. The Indonesians rejected, and by the 3rd or 4th resolution it got passed and Australians got involved, not the US. But the fact is that it took 4 resolutions to condemn it? why?? Cause you have islamic country delegates who veto each one like they don't care! So i find this a little unfair, wouldn't you think?

[Pushtak18]

Origanally posted by Takeo
to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it."

they very much care for it, we all know that many israeli resist the israeli government policy against the palestinians.

"The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. "

Israel only offered some isolated islands to the Palestinians, "bantustans" as in South africa. The goal of Oslo was an independant palestinian state and also israel had to end its colonisation-policy, but Netanyahu didn't agree to the oslo-process from day one, and did not commit himself to execute the oslo-agreements. Camp david 2000 was not acceptable to the palestinians because mainly no solution was found for millions of refugees and becase the palestinian state wouldn't have an own border with Jordan.

"But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away. "

you are right about hamas and jihad, they never wanted peace, as well as some israeli radical politicians! But they don't represent the majority of the palestinian people. only 20% support hamas according to polls, more or less 20% of israeli support extremist parties as well.

"2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe "


the nuclear bomb isn't a joke, millions of people can be killed, and some nuclear bombs can destroy israel completely. i think if israel would have used it it would mean the end of Israel, because countries as Iran and pakistan have nuclear weapons too and will certainly use it when israel launches the first bomb on a muslim country. By the way bombing Syria with nuclear bombs in 1973 would certainly have provoked a soviet reaction, Syria was an ally of the SU. It would have been easier to give back the golan to syria than to use the nuclear bomb wouldn't it?
according to international agreements israel nor any other country than china, US, SU, france, GB had the right to produce nuclear bombs.
if israel feels the right to produce nuclear bombs because it feels treatened than iraq, Libanon and Syria have that right too, they feel treatened as well.


"as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin. "

maybe so, but the us gave nuclear weapons to israel, so who's blaming who?

"the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that. "

the us did the same in the bikini-islands in the pacific ocean, and as well in the nevada-desert.

"Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!! "

LOL,
what you are referring to happened in the 80's not in 1994/95, it is regrettable, but this kind of practises is business as usual for the mossad,,who specialise in killing people by car-bombs, and the israeli army who even kill stone-trowing children.
I can tell you one thing, if israel would ever attack France it will look like ground-zero within seconds.
we treat the arabs here properly and as normal citizens so they don't feel any need to "sodomise" france.


About the Palestinians helping the israeli left, well let me just say that every time there is a suicide attack or any form of attack. You lose fans. You still critizise israel and want to demonize it, but you must understand that there are people in Israel who are willing for a palestinians state, but the problem is that if Terrorism is on anyone, than whats the point. Ofcourse you can say the same for the Palestinians, but the Palestinians never had an intrest in peace. They always looked for different solution, thus there is an Hamas and the Islamic Jihad! You would condone them and favour them, but in any attack you would decategorised them..sonds like a split personality to me!

2ndly about the Camp David & Peace process, you must understand that Israel offered them a palestinian state. meaning you would have 97% of all of west bank which the west bank is along with 100% of gaza totalling little more than 25% of israel, to make a state, which is governemd and has economy, tourism and anything that you possibly think of? Did Arafat think of anything else? no! he just walked out. He might not be the one to blame ofcourse, your president who you soo honorably elected (probably with a fraud scam), and Hosni moubarak encouraged Arafat to suspend the talks and leave. Meanwhile, when Arafat suspended the talks, he encourage the fight for independence, like the mini-inifhada of 1998, was unnacceptable with the arab world. Arafat let something go. And as the quoting says... "THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALWAYS MISSING THE OPPROTUNITY".
Netenyahu never ever made it impossible for peace talks. Netenyahu made the Hebron accord & the wye river accords....infact, he made more aggrements with the palestinians than any other prime minister in israel. Yes; he did want first a security, than talks, but this was ofcourse was his goal was when he first elected and defeated shimon Perez. He fought hard for security and with the 2 accords that were signed, we got them. There was terrorism, but not the same as 1993-1996. From 1996-2000 (pre-sept) there was hardly a sign of terrorism floating. Yes, there was terrorism, even big, suicidal ones. But in the end, you know who favoured most from it? The Palestinians! From 1996, they offically FIXED there reputation from the Crime they did in 1991 with iraq and for the first time held elections as well as saw an increase in toursim. So you have a so to be state and a good economy? so what did Arafat do? He declared an intifhada! And you wonder why he was so pissed off when he was without lights in the israeli incursions?

[Pushtak18]

FOR TAKEO


As for the refugee problem! It won't work! If you read the Geneva Convetions carefully it states on a country that fully engages in war with another. Meaning that, if it was a vice-versa situation, where the Arabs would win and make the Israelis refugees than what would happen??? Kick them all to Europe again?? Smart idea...but the fact is, like me and so many, we didn't come from Europe...my family came from Syria, but that wasn't the point. The point is that the Geneva convention states that it is your responsibility for casualties of war. If you commit a war crime that is one thing, if you win a war and make refugees it is not. Its simply a matter of Islamic Arrogance and uncompromise that after 3 major wars that 600,000 Arabs made refugees yet, in those times, they could have intergrated in the Arab world. Instead, they doubled and became 4 million and now you expecting them to return back to Israel? That is insane?? Don't you think of our security, of our right? what kind of peace do you want to succeed with Israel if you want the whole thing. I rather ULTRA-OCCUPY you, make settlements faster than a baby growing and enforce many gadgets and weapons along the borders so you suckers won't be able to get something from it! :)

but that is not the Israeli way, probably the algerian way.....

About the nuclear bomb, yes i know that it is not a joke. And no, you are wrong, there wasn't a treaty that says that US, GB, france and whole lot other countries can have it? That is one of the most pathetic bulls i have ever heard on here. So your telling me if you have a maniac like Le Pen in the parliment, than he is crazy, why doesn't he nuke Algeria or Norther Morroco??? :) would u give the bomb to the french?
Sure, French is democratic in all, but they still have alot to go, before than...but on any account Israel, as well is the same as France. We never touched the bomb and we'll probably never use it. But we shall keep it and use it as the last code for the defence if necessary. This was helpful as i said with the Syrians, and yes it would have been bad if it was used, but the fact is the Syrians went bannans trying to figure where the baby was...they halted there tanks on the Golan line and than israel got in and swooped them out!!!! thanks to the A-Bomb :) hehehe

And no, Iraq is not threatened by anyone. Only illigitimate propgadist like you would think so. You also think that sucide bombing is legitimate? what are you going to....trying to burn the world up?
Iraq, illegally makes its nuclear/chem/bio weapons...they threatened nearly every country that is near them. They even used it on one of them, which is Iran and even more so, the kurds who are residents of Iraq. So telling me that Iraq needs a Nuke is insane!!!!!!!! Did Israel use a nuclear on the palestinians or there own people...

its not about democracy its about fanaticism....and you undoubtably support that.

As for the French nuclear bomb thing. They had no legitimate reason to use it and even to begin with. America owned that land. Those land never really belond to the French, and yet they took advantage of it. The killiing in the 80s of the Greenpeace activist was never condemendd and no compensation has been giving. And as for mossad...it doesn't blow up cars as you think. Mossad is extremely logistical matters, which detects intelligence. When we go after and 'blow' them up they deserve it. What if i was to kill your mother and father and sister and anyone you can think of! i did a massacre and i ran?! I am not a free man...in a specific church around Bethlehem? Wouldn't u want me to get justice for the crimes i committed? and when i cant? Than you go for the last remaining thing which is punishming me....blow me up!!!!!!!!

You would do it for your own family, but condemn it for the israelis..

pure biasims!

So what are u anyways?

[Mediocrates]

I am not sure which one of you made this statement:

maybe so, but the us gave nuclear weapons to israel, so who's blaming who?


But it is not true.

1) The French built the Dimona reactor for the Israelis in the 50's as payment in kind for their participation in the '56 war. It is the source of virtually all nuclear weapons science and engineering.
2) The US funded the development of a much smaller research reactor which is to this day under scruntiny by the NRC and DoE.
3) Israel has never confirmed or denied the existence of a nuclear weapons program. The closest they have ever come is the official statement "Israel will not be the first state to use nuclear weapons in the Mid East". Modern technolofy dictates that warheads must be constantly maintained else they dissipate their effectiveness ~3-5% per year as the Tritium component degrades. This mandates that weapons grade facilities be left online permanently.
4) Israel has not signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty.
5) Current estimates are that Israel has from 60-100 nuclear weapons of varying size.
6) Israel's offensive missile program both ballistic and cruise is probably not developed enough to serve as the primary delivery platform for most of their nuclear weapons consequently, it is posed that most operational nuclear weapons would be aircraft delivered, air dropped bombs.

[Pushtak18]

Mediocrates,


About the the way israel would use a nuclear warhead..im not sure if they would use or drop the bomb....that is one method and i think it is the last.

Israel has Jericho-2 which is a ballistic warhead, than can reach souther Russia, and pretty much any Middle eastern, North African, Central European country! This can go about 3400+ KM, hitting any IRANIAN city and maybe even Afganistan, and yes; It can carry about a good percentage of nuclear warhead with it.

Israel is not keen on its weaponary and missiles. It has a good airforce and that is the firsrt thing it uses. Missiles for this purpose were ment for Iran or Iraq. Our Airfoce can take them down, but it will be our last call to use a Warhead against those maniacs :)

[takeo]

For your first argument about jews & France. When you tell me that no jew is fearing for there life in France, than my friend, that is a baseless lie. Perhaps even a propaganda. When you have a jew who 'fear' of wearing a religon head cap, or having anything related to jew, than that i call fear. When you have death threats about possible bombing of a synagogue, than that is a threat. To tell me that Jews are safe and sound in France is a propostrous idea that only one can ever think of.

secondly, about Chirac.......The voting was pretty much intresting. Because of the fact that Chirac internally, and externally made many problems, He lost alot of support. Le Pen came in, because he promised to fix gaps that Chirac could not fix. Yes; he is racist, but the fact is, that so is Chirac. Chirac is baseless and arrogant, and I think the French public we're rather blind because both of "these men are nothing mroe than "bastards", except for the fact that Chirac became overwhelmingly scared when his Foe, Le Pen made it to the 2nd round. He decided to make media sponsored rallied in every french capital denouncing Le Pen, and ofcourse Le Pen hates French and Muslims so he got a good 5 million supporters there. But the matter of the point is that no one heard Le Pen and what he was going to do? what did you get out of Chirac? "

i guess you know better than Jewish people who live in France :rolleyes:
Chirac has its dark sides but i would prefere a 100 times Chirac instead of your fuhrer annex warcriminal Sharon. france is a country were every race has the same chance, and nobody has less rights because of his religion or race, VERY different from your little country. And i have been to Israel, so i know the difference...


"lastly, about Indonesia...
No! There was not even one Islamic state that condemend it. Yes, they were UN resolutions pass forth, but none in which put blame and condemend Indonesia for one thing that they commited, All the UN resoultion asked for was for a peace aggreement and a solution to the problem. The Indonesians rejected, and by the 3rd or 4th resolution it got passed and Australians got involved, not the US. But the fact is that it took 4 resolutions to condemn it? why?? Cause you have islamic country delegates who veto each one like they don't care! So i find this a little unfair, wouldn't you think?"

the fact is that indonesia was condamned too by the UN, for the same reason as israel was condamned, and no single muslim country has veto-right in the UN.

[takeo]

"About the Palestinians helping the israeli left, well let me just say that every time there is a suicide attack or any form of attack. You lose fans. You still critizise israel and want to demonize it, but you must understand that there are people in Israel who are willing for a palestinians state, but the problem is that if Terrorism is on anyone, than whats the point. Ofcourse you can say the same for the Palestinians, but the Palestinians never had an intrest in peace. They always looked for different solution, thus there is an Hamas and the Islamic Jihad! You would condone them and favour them, but in any attack you would decategorised them..sonds like a split personality to me! "

not all palestinians want to destroy israel and support hamas. however ALL Palestinians hate the israeli colonisers and the idf.
Terrorism will stop if the palestinians get their rights, that's why every israeli has interest in defending peace.
what you call split personality is just the contrary of your very simplistic view.

"2ndly about the Camp David & Peace process, you must understand that Israel offered them a palestinian state. meaning you would have 97% of all of west bank which the west bank is along with 100% of gaza totalling little more than 25% of israel, to make a state, which is governemd and has economy, tourism and anything that you possibly think of? Did Arafat think of anything else? no! he just walked out. He might not be the one to blame ofcourse, your president who you soo honorably elected (probably with a fraud scam), and Hosni moubarak encouraged Arafat to suspend the talks and leave. Meanwhile, when Arafat suspended the talks, he encourage the fight for independence, like the mini-inifhada of 1998, was unnacceptable with the arab world. Arafat let something go. And as the quoting says... "THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALWAYS MISSING THE OPPROTUNITY". "

What Israel offered to "arafat" was totally unsufficient, no free borders, airspace, no solution for the refugees, etc. Israel will have to come with something better if it wants peace. Palestinians will accept any peace-offer based on the un-resolutions.
But chirac never had any influence on the oslo-agreements.


"Netenyahu never ever made it impossible for peace talks. Netenyahu made the Hebron accord & the wye river accords....infact, he made more aggrements with the palestinians than any other prime minister in israel. Yes; he did want first a security, than talks, but this was ofcourse was his goal was when he first elected and defeated shimon Perez. He fought hard for security and with the 2 accords that were signed, we got them. There was terrorism, but not the same as 1993-1996. From 1996-2000 (pre-sept) there was hardly a sign of terrorism floating. Yes, there was terrorism, even big, suicidal ones. But in the end, you know who favoured most from it? The Palestinians! From 1996, they offically FIXED there reputation from the Crime they did in 1991 with iraq and for the first time held elections as well as saw an increase in toursim. So you have a so to be state and a good economy? so what did Arafat do? He declared an intifhada! And you wonder why he was so pissed off when he was without lights in the israeli incursions?"

blabla, netanyahu build many illegal israeli settlements in palestine, in violation of oslo, and he didn't commit to the time-table agreed upon which would result in an independant palestine in 1999.
how would you feel if the french occupied parts of israel and destroyed israeli villages to build french colonies?
Palestinians didn't commit crimes "with Iraq".
When israel wants a total end to terrorism it should make a total end to all occupation of the territories occupied after 1967 and transform israel into a country where people who lived in israel for many generations could live again along their jewish neighbours.





As for the refugee problem! It won't work! If you read the Geneva Convetions carefully it states on a country that fully engages in war with another. Meaning that, if it was a vice-versa situation, where the Arabs would win and make the Israelis refugees than what would happen??? Kick them all to Europe again?? Smart idea...but the fact is, like me and so many, we didn't come from Europe...my family came from Syria, but that wasn't the point. The point is that the Geneva convention states that it is your responsibility for casualties of war. If you commit a war crime that is one thing, if you win a war and make refugees it is not. Its simply a matter of Islamic Arrogance and uncompromise that after 3 major wars that 600,000 Arabs made refugees yet, in those times, they could have intergrated in the Arab world. Instead, they doubled and became 4 million and now you expecting them to return back to Israel? That is insane?? Don't you think of our security, of our right? what kind of peace do you want to succeed with Israel if you want the whole thing. I rather ULTRA-OCCUPY you, make settlements faster than a baby growing and enforce many gadgets and weapons along the borders so you suckers won't be able to get something from it! "

OK, do it and israel won't know any peace for decades and many more israeli will die. occupation and aggression will result in more hate against israel, more isolation and more war. And if you continue treating the palestinians as animals that's exactly what israel deserves. israel has the right to security and has rights too, but the palestinians as well, many palestinians live already inside israel and those have never created a problem for israel, only if you treat them badly as the refugees and WB-Gaza palestinians they will take revenge.
israel has the right to win the war but not to etnic cleanse the CIVILIAN population from israel, or the refuse the refugees to return, read carefully the Geneva-conventions please. If they are now with more than before that's the price israel has to pay for refusing to face the problem for many decades.



"About the nuclear bomb, yes i know that it is not a joke. And no, you are wrong, there wasn't a treaty that says that US, GB, france and whole lot other countries can have it? That is one of the most pathetic bulls i have ever heard on here. So your telling me if you have a maniac like Le Pen in the parliment, than he is crazy, why doesn't he nuke Algeria or Norther Morroco??? would u give the bomb to the french?
Sure, French is democratic in all, but they still have alot to go, before than...but on any account Israel, as well is the same as France. We never touched the bomb and we'll probably never use it. But we shall keep it and use it as the last code for the defence if necessary. This was helpful as i said with the Syrians, and yes it would have been bad if it was used, but the fact is the Syrians went bannans trying to figure where the baby was...they halted there tanks on the Golan line and than israel got in and swooped them out!!!! thanks to the A-Bomb hehehe "

hehehe the golan heights belong to syria, they have every right to attack and bomb israel as long as israel doesn't stop occupying it. if anyone would occupy parts of france we would certainly bomb that country to pieces.yes there is a nuclear proliferation treaty that limits the use of nuclear weapons to those countries, that's why pakistan and india got embargoed recently, and that's why weapons inspectors are in iraq and north-korea.

[takeo]

"And no, Iraq is not threatened by anyone. Only illigitimate propgadist like you would think so. You also think that sucide bombing is legitimate? what are you going to....trying to burn the world up?
Iraq, illegally makes its nuclear/chem/bio weapons...they threatened nearly every country that is near them. They even used it on one of them, which is Iran and even more so, the kurds who are residents of Iraq. So telling me that Iraq needs a Nuke is insane!!!!!!!! Did Israel use a nuclear on the palestinians or there own people... "

israel has those weapons too, would it make attacks against israel legal and good? israel also treatened nearly every country near them, egypt was attacked two times, libanon and tunisia once, syria, palestine, jordan, etc.
no, israel didn't use a nuke (yet) but neither did iraq.
iraq is treatened by daily aggressions by the US on its territory, many people got killed by us-bombs on iraq, even if iraq didn't attack any country since more than 10 years...


"its not about democracy its about fanaticism....and you undoubtably support that. "

you support likud and sharon so you're a fanatic. in the whole of western europe sharon is viewed as a fanatic and a war-criminal.


". And as for mossad...it doesn't blow up cars as you think. Mossad is extremely logistical matters, which detects intelligence. When we go after and 'blow' them up they deserve it. What if i was to kill your mother and father and sister and anyone you can think of! i did a massacre and i ran?! I am not a free man...in a specific church around Bethlehem? Wouldn't u want me to get justice for the crimes i committed? and when i cant? Than you go for the last remaining thing which is punishming me....blow me up!!!!!!!!
"

the mossad is not about justice but about murdering anyone against the interests of israel, that's a big difference. Many ennemies of israel have been murdered in car-bombs, guess who organised those attacks? if the palestinians use the same methods against murderers of the israeli army or palestinian-haters as Zeevi, than they are "terrorists"

"You would do it for your own family, but condemn it for the israelis.. "

i would not defend my family if they were oppressing other people as israel as doing.


"1) The French built the Dimona reactor for the Israelis in the 50's as payment in kind for their participation in the '56 war. It is the source of virtually all nuclear weapons science and engineering.
2) The US funded the development of a much smaller research reactor which is to this day under scruntiny by the NRC and DoE.
3) Israel has never confirmed or denied the existence of a nuclear weapons program. The closest they have ever come is the official statement "Israel will not be the first state to use nuclear weapons in the Mid East". Modern technolofy dictates that warheads must be constantly maintained else they dissipate their effectiveness ~3-5% per year as the Tritium component degrades. This mandates that weapons grade facilities be left online permanently.
4) Israel has not signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty.
5) Current estimates are that Israel has from 60-100 nuclear weapons of varying size.
6) Israel's offensive missile program both ballistic and cruise is probably not developed enough to serve as the primary delivery platform for most of their nuclear weapons consequently, it is posed that most operational nuclear weapons would be aircraft delivered, air dropped bombs."

that's all very true, the us helped israel with its programm, so did france.

about 4) true, but neither did pakistan or india (and i think iran and north-korea as well), and those countries have been condamned for devellopping nuclear weapons by the un.

" "Israel will not be the first state to use nuclear weapons in the Mid East"

i am not so sure about this, if israel would loose a war on the ground it will certainly use nuclear weapons, even against countries who don't possess nuclear weapons.



"Israel has Jericho-2 which is a ballistic warhead, than can reach souther Russia, and pretty much any Middle eastern, North African, Central European country! This can go about 3400+ KM, hitting any IRANIAN city and maybe even Afganistan, and yes; It can carry about a good percentage of nuclear warhead with it. "

it probably can reach france too, but our missiles can reach israel too!!!

[Mediocrates]

i am not so sure about this, if israel would loose a war on the ground it will certainly use
nuclear weapons, even against countries who don't possess nuclear weapons.


It matters little what you are sure of. That is the official statement of policy of the Israeli government.

[Pushtak18]

Originally posted by Takeo


Yes, of course i understand the nature of France. And of course i don't trust president chirac in any possible terms, but the fact is that there is anti-semitism and its a growing problem. People fear for there lives. Many muslims fear that if more anti-semtism had begun, it would provoke hatred and more sympathy for Le Pen. Le Pen wanted the Arabs! He ofcourse was known for his anti-semetic remarks, but none the less he wanted the arabs. In his point of view he saw them as people who create high unemployment, make crimes; especially the organized ones, sell drugs, rape, and make major citiies like bordeux, marseille, lyon and espececially paris, more frightning. People had sympthaty for that, i wasn't a fan, but if i had lived in France and under the brutality of my neighbours, than i would have voted for him.

But a good scenario here is this....Your french, you got citizen, im not sure if your arab, or chritian, or just a supporter..you never told me! But on any case, what if the 5 million muslims, declare there own sort of independence. What if they want a piece of France in the south-eastern area, just a little land, probably the side of Israel and they would commit crimes and atrocities until they get it? of course, the french a pro-arab and they see it as maybe an opprotunity, but again it take there right away? how would u feel about it? and lets say that Muslim countries support this new state with muslims living in there? Just wanted to know :)

Now....About Indonesia.....you have a sort of 'get wrong' idea for what happened in and around 1997-1999... Indonesia, was making a sort of military coupe in the island of East Timor. They needed there independence, but it not fair to go deep on this issue. but what is, is that Indonesia, like as you loved to say Israel, tried for no apparent reason to colonialize it. the fact that Israel, was threatned by war and then won the superiority of that war and later occupied land in in the end would exchange it for peace, was something the arabs would never understand. But back to Indonesia, topic. I followed it pretty well, after my visit there in 1998, i saw the big picture. There was atrocities committed and yet, no one is claiming responsibility and is putten under the table. then you go to mid 1998, where the UN starts looking at it, and you see muslim countries vetoing against a vote to "PROTECT" the citizens of East Timor, not until Australia comes in and then does its own protection. E. Timors best friend ofcourse is Australia. The thing with Israel, that many hate to understand is that Israel WILL, yes WILL give back the land on a peace settlement!! Yet, in other places where you have occupation, im sorry to say you do, than you don't have peace agreements or any agreement for a withdrawl. You ever see China trying to withdrawl from Macau??? you ever see Syria withdrawling and stoping to bitch Lebanon? you ever see that???NO! but in the palestinian/israeli issue there is, and israel is willing to give back land and make more only on the terms if we ger 3-7% of the land and there will be a cooperation on the jerusalem issue, and the Right of Return for refugees will not be determined by Israel but Arab states and perhaps European/Asian and the rest world. I think that with around 4 million people, you can give them refugee in a great part!

So what are u complaining about?

[Pushtak18]

The people who detter the peace process away from the center stage are the same people who commit terror. Yes, there was a slip from terror in the 'good days' of the peace process, but after Sept. 2000, Arafat decided to not put a hold on them and took off with killing his own people and israelis!! Why, cause he thought an uprising would be better than peaceful solution. But arafat won't the other way.


When you see Hamas and you support there suicidal bombings as a legitimate thing for the end of occupation than i call that propsturous. THe more suicide bombing you will have the more left supports you will lose, the more international sympathy you would fail and the more wait you will get for a Palestinian state. Look at the history...stop thinking that the last 2 years of bloodshed means the past 10 years for Oslo. It isn't!!!!!!! The Palestinians never had an autonomy and never had there own rule in a certain place, and yet when they have it, they start making bomb factories and other insitutes that promote anti-peace. And when you foreigner see, you see it as a legitimate way to the fustration of the palestinian people. It is not!!! It is a way to make the peace process more simplistic and its not working. The terror will stop when they will want a palestinian state. Right now, these people do not care about life, don't care about there own people, would want to see death and hegemony being committed and they don't care, why? cause they have support by ignorant people and unfortunetly people like you. :(


About the peace process, well......Yes, at the begining of Camp David it wasn't the best offer. But it outlined something very important, a palestinian state and the legitimacy of a free democratic state along side another democratic state in harmony and freedom. What did arafat do? he was 'insulted' and left....he never made any more agreements, he declared that he would persuse indepence in every means around september and he is the realy Victor here (Showing the ignorant V sign with his fingers) that he truly beat the US and Israel in there own game. He knew that people would uprise, but he never knew when? Even when the infifhada statred, Ehud Barak made it possible and told Arafat to clamp down on the rioting. He didn't do it..And it started more and more and more and it didn't stop. There was breakthroughs, but than again, the blame is back on Arafat, cause he only sat in Ramallah like an idiot and talked rhetoric. When Taba agreements came, Israel still managed to give more and finally Arafat saw an agreement, but than again....made every pressure to put pressure on it. Something like that could have been finalized and made a deal in maybe Late August. Arafat didn't do that, he made it till the last minute....and then regretted it. Thats his problem...Like bush said...he let his people down!

Netenyahu, was commited to the peace process and yes, he made settelements, but he was committed to dismantling many of them and to building peace with the Palestinians. He made it possible when he signed the Hebron Agreement and later forth the wye river agreement. He gave the Palestinians a taste of ruling when he let Arafat run all of GAZA, what happened in the end? gaza is a hamas headquarters and a sham!!! Why is it? you tell me?
1999 was suposed to be the date, but the wye river accord stated that it will be later forth. And ofcourse in 1999, Netanyahu lost in the polls to Ehud Barak who stated that he would be willing to make the peace process. Even further, he talked with clinton. Clinton invented the camp david, Ehud Barak initiated it and Arafat accpeted it. He was more than willing to go the forth distance. And it would have been a palestinian state already...if you didn't have the Islamic Autrocratic Regime that is spilling the blood of your people! Its tryant, its ruthless...its islam

The refugee problem is complex but than again, look at the ways that it started. The arabs rejected the recognition of an arab state and wanted war. :( they lost and with that had refugees....they let them live as lower citizens and they didn't give them anything. They only made them more angried and more anti-israel. If they had made them and would let them live in there kingdoms or there regimes i think that would'nt have harmed them, but to let them ALL 4 Milion live in Israel, is Insane!!!! If i was to throw 4 million in America it would be insane!! you don't know Socio-economics and Israel is not going to be binded into an agreements that redecules them and makes a county with around 21,000KM jamm packed with nearly 11 million people not to mention another 4 million in the WB/GAZA! This is insane and it won't work.

Now let me ask you this. What if the arabs would have won the war? what do you think the Jews would have done? do you think that you'll make us refugee's?? Sure! Do you think that you will kill us? Probably, but you wouldn't have been better than what is going on right now. And yes, you would never have us live in Israel again. Even more, let me just add that if there was no Israel than probably the people who would fight over 'palestine' would be Jordan who got the most of it from King Adbulla 1st who came from Saudi Arabia....and probably the other countires would be egypt and syria fighting for it. No one would be intrested in it.

But back to my point...If Jews were the losers in the arab-israeli wars, than i would highly doubt that you would ever let us live. The wars that happened in 1948 and even until 1982...was for the annhilation of Israel! Do you think Jordan/Syria and the gang would attack Israel? for what? to liberize the arabs? No! To try and make us unlegitimate.

you know and we know it......

And what if i talked to you about the expulsions, pogroms and liguidations that occured in the arab world from 1920-1950 directly against the jews??? Like me, i am on of them. my family came to Israel in the 1920's after fledding Syria. There was pogroms and life was bad. Yes, the refugees found home and today, i rightly deserve compesation from Syria, but i dont want there Islamic satatnic money. I don't care about it! I care about the country that i know reside in..........

so you see, its a 2-2 game here :(

[takeo]

"Yes, of course i understand the nature of France. And of course i don't trust president chirac in any possible terms, but the fact is that there is anti-semitism and its a growing problem. People fear for there lives. Many muslims fear that if more anti-semtism had begun, it would provoke hatred and more sympathy for Le Pen. Le Pen wanted the Arabs! He ofcourse was known for his anti-semetic remarks, but none the less he wanted the arabs. In his point of view he saw them as people who create high unemployment, make crimes; especially the organized ones, sell drugs, rape, and make major citiies like bordeux, marseille, lyon and espececially paris, more frightning. People had sympthaty for that, i wasn't a fan, but if i had lived in France and under the brutality of my neighbours, than i would have voted for him. "

As i told you i live in an Arab neighboorhood (by the way I'm not Arab but of russian-jewish origin) and there are some problems with them yet not the hell you think it is. People voted for Le Pen for all kinds of reason, but your sympathy for this man is very dangerous, he is a fascist and he said that the genocide against the Jews was just a detail, for this words he was convicted, he lost one year of his civil rights. By the way he only got 17 percent of the votes.

"But a good scenario here is this....Your french, you got citizen, im not sure if your arab, or chritian, or just a supporter..you never told me! But on any case, what if the 5 million muslims, declare there own sort of independence. What if they want a piece of France in the south-eastern area, just a little land, probably the side of Israel and they would commit crimes and atrocities until they get it? of course, the french a pro-arab and they see it as maybe an opprotunity, but again it take there right away? how would u feel about it? and lets say that Muslim countries support this new state with muslims living in there? Just wanted to know "

Arabs in France have never claimed an own state because they are new immigrants here, they never lived in France before the 50's, whereas in israel they were the big majority of the population before the etnic cleansing of 1948, one of the largest etnic cleansing in world history.

"Now....About Indonesia.....you have a sort of 'get wrong' idea for what happened in and around 1997-1999... Indonesia, was making a sort of military coupe in the island of East Timor. They needed there independence, but it not fair to go deep on this issue. but what is, is that Indonesia, like as you loved to say Israel, tried for no apparent reason to colonialize it. the fact that Israel, was threatned by war and then won the superiority of that war and later occupied land in in the end would exchange it for peace, was something the arabs would never understand. But back to Indonesia, topic. I followed it pretty well, after my visit there in 1998, i saw the big picture. There was atrocities committed and yet, no one is claiming responsibility and is putten under the table. then you go to mid 1998, where the UN starts looking at it, and you see muslim countries vetoing against a vote to "PROTECT" the citizens of East Timor, not until Australia comes in and then does its own protection. E. Timors best friend ofcourse is Australia."


about Eastern Timor the UN cared and condamned indonesia numerous times, what could they do more? The US would veto any real action against Indonesia, as dictator Suhartu was the friend of the US and put in power by them to replace the communist-minded Sukarno (in that coup more than 3 millions of communist peasants were killed).

" The thing with Israel, that many hate to understand is that Israel WILL, yes WILL give back the land on a peace settlement!! "

i'm not so sure about that, your hero netanyahu said israel will never allow a Palestinian state, and also what was proposed in camp David was not a full withdrawel.

"Yet, in other places where you have occupation, im sorry to say you do, than you don't have peace agreements or any agreement for a withdrawl. You ever see China trying to withdrawl from Macau??? you ever see Syria withdrawling and stoping to bitch Lebanon? you ever see that???NO! but in the palestinian/israeli issue there is, and israel is willing to give back land and make more only on the terms if we ger 3-7% of the land and there will be a cooperation on the jerusalem issue, and the Right of Return for refugees will not be determined by Israel but Arab states and perhaps European/Asian and the rest world. I think that with around 4 million people, you can give them refugee in a great part! "

all the examples you give are not comparable. Macao people are chinese who wellcomed the Chinese, Syrians were invited by the libanese president to protect the country from israel and the palestinians fighting their war in Libanon, and they are not an occupation force. The refugees should have the right to return to the land of their families according to the Geneva-conventions and the Un-resolutions, but not all of them, because than Israel would be a Palestinian state. So a compromise has to be made on this.

"The people who detter the peace process away from the center stage are the same people who commit terror. Yes, there was a slip from terror in the 'good days' of the peace process, but after Sept. 2000, Arafat decided to not put a hold on them and took off with killing his own people and israelis!! Why, cause he thought an uprising would be better than peaceful solution. But arafat won't the other way. "

the peacefull solution was not getting the Palestinians anywhere, israel did not withdraw any settlement but build new ones, and was not prepared to talk about a total withdrawel and a free palestinian state (with own border and airspace controll, which is essential) israel was also after years of peace not prepared to talk about the refugees. I hope next time israel will see that it has no choice but to make real peace and negociation, not a peace that will only serve israel.


"When you see Hamas and you support there suicidal bombings as a legitimate thing for the end of occupation than i call that propsturous. THe more suicide bombing you will have the more left supports you will lose, the more international sympathy you would fail and the more wait you will get for a Palestinian state. Look at the history...stop thinking that the last 2 years of bloodshed means the past 10 years for Oslo. It isn't!!!!!!! The Palestinians never had an autonomy and never had there own rule in a certain place, and yet when they have it, they start making bomb factories and other insitutes that promote anti-peace. And when you foreigner see, you see it as a legitimate way to the fustration of the palestinian people. It is not!!! It is a way to make the peace process more simplistic and its not working. The terror will stop when they will want a palestinian state. Right now, these people do not care about life, don't care about there own people, would want to see death and hegemony being committed and they don't care, why? cause they have support by ignorant people and unfortunetly people like you. "

the suicide-bombers don't have my support, you are right that killing innocent people will not solve anything. Yet the intifadeh against the occupation force has my support, because after years of peace Palestinians are still occupied by israel and israel made abuse of the calm to build more settlements and continue the colonisation-process, israel also didn't make any real proposals that would be acceptable for the world and the palestinians. and the first intifadeh has showed that israel will only consider the rights of the palestinians if they are forced to do so.


"About the peace process, well......Yes, at the begining of Camp David it wasn't the best offer. But it outlined something very important, a palestinian state and the legitimacy of a free democratic state along side another democratic state in harmony and freedom. What did arafat do? he was 'insulted' and left....he never made any more agreements, he declared that he would persuse indepence in every means around september and he is the realy Victor here (Showing the ignorant V sign with his fingers) that he truly beat the US and Israel in there own game. He knew that people would uprise, but he never knew when? Even when the infifhada statred, Ehud Barak made it possible and told Arafat to clamp down on the rioting. He didn't do it.."

in the meanwhile Barak ordered his troops to shoot at children trowing stones and destroying PA-buildings, a disasterous move which provoked the palestinians to start some more serious actions. Arafat was not insulted but judged that this proposal was not according to the palestinians rights, howeverhe was still open for new negociations, and more serious negociations began in jan. 2001 untill that son of a **** came to power who made an end to all negociations and contacts and started his disasterous "military solution".


"Netenyahu, was commited to the peace process and yes, he made settelements, but he was committed to dismantling many of them and to building peace with the Palestinians. He made it possible when he signed the Hebron Agreement and later forth the wye river agreement. "

LOL, netanyahu was ALWAYS against any concession of the Palestinians, even the left-wing in Israel accused him of undermining the peace-process, he did some minor concession under us-pressure, but nothing like he should have done according to oslo.

"...if you didn't have the Islamic Autrocratic Regime that is spilling the blood of your people! Its tryant, its ruthless...its islam "

[takeo]

If israel would have considered negociation over the camp david-proposal we would not have any war now, and by the way the PA isn't Islamic, many members of the current government aren't even religious.

The refugee problem is complex but than again, look at the ways that it started. The arabs rejected the recognition of an arab state and wanted war. they lost and with that had refugees....they let them live as lower citizens and they didn't give them anything. They only made them more angried and more anti-israel. If they had made them and would let them live in there kingdoms or there regimes i think that would'nt have harmed them, but to let them ALL 4 Milion live in Israel, is Insane!!!! If i was to throw 4 million in America it would be insane!! you don't know Socio-economics and Israel is not going to be binded into an agreements that redecules them and makes a county with around 21,000KM jamm packed with nearly 11 million people not to mention another 4 million in the WB/GAZA! This is insane and it won't work. "

Well, israel could take in one millions of Russians, who have no link with israel whatsoever, so why couldn't it take in palestinians who, according to international law, have the right to return to their home-land where they or their families were born?

I agree for millions of palestinians would mean israel would no longer have a Jewish majority, and by the way not all 4 millions want to return, some would rather prefere to live in the West or other Arab countries, but Israel should at least have the decensy to take back at least 30% or something like that of the people it etnically cleansed, it would be a solution for one of the biggest problems for the Middle East and for israel as well.
poor Arab countries as Jordan and Libanon did great efforts to take in the palestinians, and caused a lot of problems to those countries, yet those refugees came from israel, not from libanon or Jordan, why should they stay in a country that isn't theirs and where they didn't come voluntarily?
the un always resisted against etnic cleansing, in israel as well as in Yougoslavia.

"Now let me ask you this. What if the arabs would have won the war? what do you think the Jews would have done? do you think that you'll make us refugee's?? Sure! Do you think that you will kill us? Probably, but you wouldn't have been better than what is going on right now. And yes, you would never have us live in Israel again. Even more, let me just add that if there was no Israel than probably the people who would fight over 'palestine' would be Jordan who got the most of it from King Adbulla 1st who came from Saudi Arabia....and probably the other countires would be egypt and syria fighting for it. No one would be intrested in it. "

i'm not so sure about that, probably if they won the 1973 war, the us, the soviet-union and Europe would have intervened to save israel on the condition that it agreed to all un-resolutions.
Nasser has declared that he would not send the Jews born in israel back to Europe or whereever they came from, but that they would not have their own state, so most likely many Israeli would have fled, but there probably wouldn't be a massive etnic cleansing as happened after israel won the war.

"But back to my point...If Jews were the losers in the arab-israeli wars, than i would highly doubt that you would ever let us live. The wars that happened in 1948 and even until 1982...was for the annhilation of Israel! Do you think Jordan/Syria and the gang would attack Israel? for what? to liberize the arabs? No! To try and make us unlegitimate. "

actually Syria, Jordan etc. have all said they want friendly relations with israel on the condition that the Palestinian rights will be observed.



"And what if i talked to you about the expulsions, pogroms and liguidations that occured in the arab world from 1920-1950 directly against the jews??? Like me, i am on of them. my family came to Israel in the 1920's after fledding Syria. There was pogroms and life was bad. Yes, the refugees found home and today, i rightly deserve compesation from Syria, but i dont want there Islamic satatnic money. I don't care about it! I care about the country that i know reside in.......... "

Jews like your family lived in Syria, Egypt, etc. for many years and only when zionism occured the situation between Arabs and jews deteriorated. Many Jews continued to live in Egypt untill the 1967 aggression and some jews still live in Arab countries like morocco or Tunisia, they refuse to immigrate to Israel.
Jews didn't fled arab countries primarily because they were oppressed but because they believed in zionism and wanted to live in a jewish country. Also European jews after WWII didn't leave Europe because of oppression (my family never feld oppressed in Russia) but because they wanted to live in a different country (maybe because it was richer, or jewish, or sunnier or a combination of all that)

[Pushtak18]

Right, i am aware of French politics, but you understand that Chirac gave way to this Le Pen. you think I like him. I don't, even if he apoligized which he did (read haaretzdaily, he had an interview with them) he still did a mistake. But he has an agenda, and even if its not the best, and i don't support it, other people will. Maybe not now but in 30 years from now. It will be a scary world in France if you let it happen. Chirac let this happen, cause he not better than Le Pen, he does the same thing Le Pen is doing. And if Le Pen wasn't running than Chirac would know that he would lose the support. He instead never had an alternative and told the people that they should protest against Le pen and hold French Reputation in good condition, but let me tell you something, French reputation, even without the election was ruined! It doesn't matter if Le Pen has 1% or 40% of the vote. He did have votes, because of the situation that went there and not because of the issues that is growing externally.....

First of all, about your ethnic cleansing..no it wasn't an ethnic cleansing, if this one of your lies, like the thing you had about You being Russian-jew! If there was ethnic cleansing it would have been no palestinians. Because of there aggression they lost. Why is it that when an aggressor loses, they always start to look like the innocent one. And as always, they missed an opprotunity...they rejected land and they decided to start war...what more is hard to understand here?

Yes; the UN did veto it, but it was too late. There was atrocities already committed and they never had a resolution made out till 1998, which was late. There had already been clashes for maybe 9 months before and the issue was never brought up to the table since it really got bad in 1992 and 1993. The US never vetoes anything, states like Malaysia, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Morroco all vetoes anything and helped the Indonesian do a little more damadge. Australia stepped it and brought it to the attention of the world. Yes, unlike you and your rhetoric you refuse to see what the crimes were. As you know unlike Israeli, British and French soldiers, the rest of the soldiers in those areas are poor soldiers and they do personal crimes. Did anyone look at that?

Still, what netenyahu said that If Israel was to give up land and create a palestinian state, than we must be cautious, afterall, whats the point if you have a palestinian and it makes ties with countries and has uliminted armed forces and still has groups like Hamas not only having institutions and still uncommitted to peace but also having a spot in the parliment? What kinda peace is that. Tell me where anyone said that there won't be a full withdrawl. Israel is still committed to it and i think the palestinians should be as well.

First of all, your being extremely biased here. you think that just because China occupies Macau they are chinese. Look at Honk Kong, they were given back to the Chinese, and ofcourse many left, but not many wanted it. Did they complain..no! Why? Cause they know there people there who would punish them. Im sorry to hurt you here, but Syria doesn't have an diplomatic relations with Lebanon. Lebanon never had an embassy and there after an israeli withdrawl, they still have forcess there. So if you can give me a pretty damn good reason why there still there, i like to hear it, because they have absolutely no right to. And you know that there today in Lebanon anti-syrian groups who object the 'syrian occupation'?? Did you know that or are u just being biased and ignoring it. Don't tell me that there here to defend Lebanese and Lebanon. No one wanted them there and they just got the whole civil war mixed up and tangled. They entered lebanon and yes, they did war crimes (Circa; Damour village..massacre of 1980 by PLO and Syrian forces...35,000 people). And on top of that they entered in 1975/1976, almost 6 years before israel entered and entered for a very good reason. As a result, syria was scared of going head-to-head with Israel in this, thats why before hand when israel made the buffer zone in 1978, they made alliance with the PLO and after the Iranian Revolution had a pact at around 1982 to create a gurilla force so they can do the 'mess' for them that is now called Hizbullah...not very hard to understand.

Maybe you need to talk to a lebanese freedom activist to get the real story here!

Im sorry to say, but Israel talked peace and made sense, not in the Camp David but along the way, they did. Arafat put the leavage on it, and made it more pressurable. It was a do or die sense and because of him we are in this mess. Israel is willing to talk about a palestinian state with all the recommendations that you said and i think it will happen, but it should happen without terror. Israel was willing to accept the principales and even negotiator of the PLO Saeb Erkat said it was close, but he even admitted that they were late.
So again, it was another opprotunity that the palestinians missed! I can't blame myself or israel that the palestinians are refusing to do anything to restore calm!

To support suicide bombing or the Intifhada is just a meaningless thing that has no point what-so-ever. The 1st intifhada never had anything and same with the 2nd one. The only reason that the 1st intifhada was stoped or better yet halted was that Yasser Arafat support saddam! He lost his credibility in the west and many turned there backs to the wall in the arab world. How come you never condemned nor pay attention to the brutality many palestinians whom you so much support were treated to 3 days of mayhem where they were thrown in jails for allegedly having ties with the Iraqis?!?!?!? You seem to be one sided and ignore the rest! Palestinians did get killed and dragged on the street in the days after liberation! And again your little master puppet arafat did the talking and the ones being tortured were palestinians!!! How dare you!!!

First of all, Barak never once ordered to shoot children. But on the other hand, when you look at the aftermath of camp david look at what the Palestinians were getting into? Back in August you saw headlines of newsweek with picutres of palestinians getting 'prepared' to liberate palestine. And you saw how they were taught. This wasn't a sort of 'it just happened'....they were prepared for such a deal like this. Like the PA information minister said....."The inifhada took some time, even before Camp David we were ready for this" so now who is the son of a bitch. And no, the negotiation happened even in Early October 2000. These were the talks that arafat refused and than in Taba still refused. And yes he was the one who suspended it. And ofcourse when there was TABA there was a car bombing in Jerusalem...so you see, everytime we even try to have a breakthrough you seem to have your 'intifhada weapons' being used!!!!
STOP THE NON-SENSE! STOP THE AGONY AND STOP THE MERCY!
THE ONLY TYRANT ISLAMIC BITCH HERE IS MR. ARAFAT. STOP SUPPORTING HIM, MAKE HIM FEEL LIKE ITS 1990 WITH IRAQ AND HE WILL BE LEFT ALONE AND WE'LL FINALLY LISTEN TO HIS PEOPLE! NOW WE ARE NEEDING REFORM!!!

Stop naming netenyahu as a bad person, he made the peace with the palestinains twice. Im sorry that you don't like him but he did his part...And there was no delay...he was only removed cause there was a voting!!!!!
And it was internal problems and not foreign!

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
Also European jews after WWII didn't leave Europe because of oppression (my family never feld oppressed in Russia) but because they wanted to live in a different country (maybe because it was richer, or jewish, or sunnier or a combination of all that)

You can't claim this. Even though I'm not that old, I know very well that Soviet Jews were persecuted in Russia and I recall that there were considerable efforts in the 1970s and 1980s in the West to assist them in their plight. What a slap in the face to all the people who put in considerable efforts to help Soviet Jews and to all the people who actually suffered in the Soviet Union. Just for starters, practicing and learning Judaism was extremely difficult and could lead to loss of employment and/or imprisonment.

Of course, not only Jews were persecuted in the Soviet Union, but political dissidents of various religious persuasions and ethnicities (and their relatives and friends).

[Pushtak18]

Stop saying that "IF ISRAEL HAD ANY CONCESSIONS THERE WOULDN"T BE WAR" that is a bear-faced lie and you know it. Camp David was meant to end the Palestinian-Israeli issue. Maybe no one was ready, but the main point is that the Israelis had something on the table, Arafat never made his offer. He just felt insulted and took off. You understand that Israelis and especailly ehud Barak wanted the peace. Arafat never insisted on a Camp David. Like i said...Clinton Invented the idea, Barak Initiated the Idea, and Arafat accepted the Idea of the Camp David 2000 talks!! If for all i care, the Talks could have been NOW than 2000, and Ehud would be prime minster. It is the Politicians who wanted the infifhada and not the People. The people were growing and even under occupation life was good. They had jobs and the economy was growing, slwoly but growing. So what went wrong there? are u still accusing israel of being the bad guy because they initiated the peace at camp david...that is obscurd comment to say.

Well, Mr Takeo...about the refugees....
The russians did have something and they were jews. And unlike the Palestinians who are intrested in just making mayhem and anarchy in Israel. Sure, you can say that the Russians don't have anything to do with israel, but than again what do the palestinians have? the 'home land?" well..im not russian, im Syrian Jew..and my homeland is in Syria and yet, i can't travel, and im barred from my homeland. Like the many jews who you so much deny, that left the Arab/Middle eastern world from the 1900's to the 1970's....... They never got compesated and were ignored the rights.....so what do you tell a jew who has no rights in a place like YEMEN (which till today had a rule to expel jews that was made in there bill at around 1923)??? You wouldn't sayanythiing? There was a jewish refugee problem from the Middle east countries, yet instead of putting them in refugee camps and depriving them, they got home and there independence in Israel. And as you said.....since the palestinians are arabs, what the point if they go to a Deomocratic jewish state??? So they can topple it??? Why not send them to there own brothers and sisters in the Arab world?? Why is that? or are u just trying to make the war seem more bitter? All you want to do is creat an East and West palestine! And bring more anarchy. Right of Return is not in the Geneva conventions and you know that if today we would suck up to R.O.R and have peace, there will be trouble in 20-50 years from now. I am not going to let this happen. So don't threaten the jewish state with whats on the Geneva convetions because you arabs have ripped the Convention many times in the past 50 years...not just for our wars, but for your own people.

First of all, Don't try to make the call and say that Jordan and Lebanon are sooo poor and generous people. The palestians are the ones who started the 15 year civil war in Lebanon. They ignited it. On the Jordanian side, the Jordanians in just 3 weeks massacred 20,000 Palestinians!! Now are they generous and sensere!!! Look here.... i know you missing alot of points and some your reufse to know, but the fact is, you cannot have a peace process that would allow a civil war to take place! YOU WANT A CIVIL WAR IN ISRAEL! And i know that if we make peace with the arab world than they would stab us in the back! That is why i am not going to accept something like that, which is ridiculous. If the world wants to play a good part, than i think that 4 million refugees can go to all parts of the world and gain citizenships. They can live in luxenborg, and england and spain and argentina and USA and Canada and all sorts of places. Remember, PA mocked Canada last year for being the first to step out and trying to resolve the refugee issue, by letting them in their country...the PA called it FRUITLESS!!! How dare they!!!

you are truly a denier!!! You are speechless when i tell you that the arabs weren't budging on the war. And evenso, you seem to little or no agree with me that the same sort of punishment and even worser would happen to the Israelis like it is happened to the Palestinains! That seems to show how and why Israel won the war and would still need to defend itself. You brought up the war and you lost it. And yet you never signed peace for it. You realize that the WB would have became part of Jordan? so now where is the Peace process with palestinians?

But listen, im not talking about waht the Syrians wants to have relations with Israel......Im talking about how they acted in 1940's...They were the ones who ruined the relations and freedome for the palestinians....the palestininas weren't the ones fighting. it was the Jordanians and Syrians...and they made them lose! they were the arrogant one, they were the aggressors and they lost. How can you say they want to have relations only if Palestinians rights are observed when they march with there tanks and Phantom-5's and try to destroy israel. that is insane!!!


Still, whatever it was it was an expulsion!!! People just don't say they want to move cause its sunnier. Russians were torchered in Russia and Syrian jews did not have any rights. We left for fear and we wanted a better life. There is nothing about zionism or any nationalistic movement.. infact if Zionism is so bad for you than so is Arab/Islamic Nationalism? And do you know why? because Arab Nationalism focuses on Pure Islamic Countries and Pan Arabism country where there would be an Empire of the whole 25 Arab countries in 1. So whats the difference? Jews wanted a homeland where they can live without pogroms and hatred, just because you don't live in that country doesn't mean you have to mock it. I am proud to live in Israel. I know that there was many troubles for jews, even before the turn of the century and we had enough!!! Israel was our hope! Israel was our TIKVA! So leave Israel alone and give us our own state and homeland!!!

[takeo]

let me shortly make some remarks about your first post:

How do you know that Chirac has ruined France?
You don't seem to know nothing about France, because the real power was not in the possetion of Chirac but of a left-wing coalition, and by the way the last 4 years the French have never had such a high life-standard. There are some problems with Arabs in some neighbourhood, but if you go to France you will see it's not really so bad.
Of course according to you (and others on this forum) the credibility of France is lost because it criticised israel. well i can assure you we don't give a **** about the credibility of france in some countries which have been condamned during many decades by the whole world for their policy.

listen you don't seem to understand the meaning of "etnic cleansing", it doesn't mean genocide but expulsion or refusal to allow back refugees into their homes. Whoever started the war, it doesn't matter, you can not take revenge on millions of refugees, that's against the geneva-conventions. And so israel has certainly committed etnic cleansing.

you also don't seem to understand how the un works, the us has veto power, countries like Morocco, etc. don't have veto-power. The US supported the suhartu-regime, that's a well-known secret and only in the 90's the US started to pull back its support.



netanyahu said there wouldn't even be a palestinians state, let alone a full withdrawel. i think hamas should have the right to be represented in parliament if they would accept to use non-violent means to achieve its goals once a palestinian state is created. there should be amnesty for crimes on both sides, or justice for both sides.

you also don't seem to know much about macao or hong Kong, these were colonies of Brittain and portugal conquered (or granted) from china, and returned to china in a treaty. People in Hong Kong and macao are 98% etnic chinese.
abut libanon the libanese falangist prime minister (or president) invited the syrian troops in Libanon to fight the palestinians (and later also israel), that's history my friend. as long as libanon doesn't ask for their withdrawel, they are legal in Syria. Some people don't like their presence, but the elected parliament of Libanon has not asked for the withdrawel of syrian troops, whereas possibly 100% of the palestinians and their legal representatives ask the withdrawel of israeli troops, who were never invited in the WB or Gaza! by the way israel was never invited in Libanon neither;



The first intifadeh was not stopped after the gulf-war, it only stopped officially in 1993 when israel for the first time in its history showed willingness to talk with the palestinian leaders. yes some palestinians were mistreated by kouweit after the war, so what? did i ever say that all Arab countries are good?

"First of all, Barak never once ordered to shoot children"
so who ordered the shooting of 100's of, sometimes very young, demonstrators?



" And no, the negotiation happened even in Early October 2000. These were the talks that arafat refused and than in Taba still refused. And yes he was the one who suspended it. And ofcourse when there was TABA there was a car bombing in Jerusalem...so you see, everytime we even try to have a breakthrough you seem to have your 'intifhada weapons' being used!!!! "

do you deny that since Sharon came to power israel refused to negociate with the palestinians, and stopped the negociations started by barak before the election of Sharon?
you should make a difference between the pa and fatah and hamas. Hamas tried to stop the peace-process, while it was only since israel started to stop the peace-process too and destroying pa-infrastructure that fatah got actively involved in violence against israel.


"STOP THE NON-SENSE! STOP THE AGONY AND STOP THE MERCY!
THE ONLY TYRANT ISLAMIC BITCH HERE IS MR. ARAFAT. STOP SUPPORTING HIM, MAKE HIM FEEL LIKE ITS 1990 WITH IRAQ AND HE WILL BE LEFT ALONE AND WE'LL FINALLY LISTEN TO HIS PEOPLE! NOW WE ARE NEEDING REFORM!!! "

arafat is the representative of the palestinians, if you kill him there will be more violence and reprisals against israel, not less.
"stop naming arafat is a bad person :D " he was the one palestinian to make peace with israel, and he can do it again if israel wishes so.

"Stop naming netenyahu as a bad person, he made the peace with the palestinains twice. Im sorry that you don't like him but he did his part...And there was no delay...he was only removed cause there was a voting!!!!!
And it was internal problems and not foreign!"

i heard he was accused of corruption...
anyway he really delayed the oslo-agreements (a final solution should have been established in 1999), and violated them (more new settlements)

[takeo]

"You can't claim this. Even though I'm not that old, I know very well that Soviet Jews were persecuted in Russia and I recall that there were considerable efforts in the 1970s and 1980s in the West to assist them in their plight. What a slap in the face to all the people who put in considerable efforts to help Soviet Jews and to all the people who actually suffered in the Soviet Union. Just for starters, practicing and learning Judaism was extremely difficult and could lead to loss of employment and/or imprisonment. "

there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.

You have GOT to be kidding! Where are you getting this information? I can vouch that it's baloney, from personal experience.

My father wanted to go to a military school. He was told, on no uncertain terms, that "no Yid will ever make it into this school". My father was a straight-A student, who subsequently entered the Telephony and Communications Institute (through bribes) and now has 50+ published works and a number of patented inventions to his credit. This was 1965.

My sister tried to get into the special music school. We had to pay a bribe for her to get accepted, because -as they told us -"they already had too many Jews". My sister, incidentally, is now a violinist for the Finnish National Opera - so talent wasn't an issue. This was 1977

I had a friend who got kicked out of that special music school for the "crime" of going to the synagogue on a Jewish holiday. This was 1978.

Is that enough? Or should I give you more samples from my "medium" life?

[takeo]

"Maybe no one was ready, but the main point is that the Israelis had something on the table, Arafat never made his offer. "

Arafat was ready to negociate about Camp david, israel made it clear it was a "take it or leave it"-proposal

"If for all i care, the Talks could have been NOW than 2000, and Ehud would be prime minster. It is the Politicians who wanted the infifhada and not the People. The people were growing and even under occupation life was good. They had jobs and the economy was growing, slwoly but growing. So what went wrong there? are u still accusing israel of being the bad guy because they initiated the peace at camp david...that is obscurd comment to say"

Israel could start new talks any moment, and start negociations were they left since Sharon came to power, right now in june 2002, Arafat said he would certainly accept, guess who refuses to talk?
the intifadeh started because the Palestinian economy was NOT growing because the palestinian cities were totally caled off from each other and from other Arab states, and oslo had been abused by israel to build more settlements while there was peace, the intifadeh started also because israel was not ready to talk about some crucial issues.

"Well, Mr Takeo...about the refugees....
The russians did have something and they were jews."

So what, they were no Jews with any family member (even distant) born in israel!

"And unlike the Palestinians who are intrested in just making mayhem and anarchy in Israel. Sure, you can say that the Russians don't have anything to do with israel, but than again what do the palestinians have? the 'home land?" well..im not russian, im Syrian Jew..and my homeland is in Syria and yet, i can't travel, and im barred from my homeland. Like the many jews who you so much deny, that left the Arab/Middle eastern world from the 1900's to the 1970's....... They never got compesated and were ignored the rights.....so what do you tell a jew who has no rights in a place like YEMEN (which till today had a rule to expel jews that was made in there bill at around 1923)??? You wouldn't sayanythiing? There was a jewish refugee problem from the Middle east countries, yet instead of putting them in refugee camps and depriving them, they got home and there independence in Israel."


That's right, and palestinians and arab countries also agreed to compensate Arab jews or let them return on the condition that the same could happen with the palestinians. But many Jews didn't go to israel because they were forced to leave (in some cases yes), they went to israel because they believed in zionism.
Some jews still lived in Egypt untill the 60's and many still live in Morocco.
You have every right to establish in Syria or get compensation as the palestinian refugees have to establish in israel or get compensation.




"And as you said.....since the palestinians are arabs, what the point if they go to a Deomocratic jewish state??? So they can topple it??? Why not send them to there own brothers and sisters in the Arab world?? Why is that? or are u just trying to make the war seem more bitter? All you want to do is creat an East and West palestine! And bring more anarchy. Right of Return is not in the Geneva conventions and you know that if today we would suck up to R.O.R and have peace, there will be trouble in 20-50 years from now. I am not going to let this happen. So don't threaten the jewish state with whats on the Geneva convetions because you arabs have ripped the Convention many times in the past 50 years...not just for our wars, but for your own people. "

Palestinians should have the right to return to their own houses or lands, it won't make israel a palestinian country (still a minority) but it would make israel a multi-cultural country. as well as you should have the right to immigrate to Sria, palestinians born in israel and their families should have the right to go to israel. Believing in mono-etnic states is fascism, it is the dream of le pen.
In the next i will give you some parts of the geneva-convention that exactly show that israel is violating the convention and that the right of return is a basic human right.
it is not to stir anarchy but exactly to solve the anarchy and problems, the palestinians already living in israel are the ones NOT attacking or bombing israel.

"YOU WANT A CIVIL WAR IN ISRAEL! And i know that if we make peace with the arab world than they would stab us in the back! That is why i am not going to accept something like that, which is ridiculous. If the world wants to play a good part, than i think that 4 million refugees can go to all parts of the world and gain citizenships. They can live in luxenborg, and england and spain and argentina and USA and Canada and all sorts of places. Remember, PA mocked Canada last year for being the first to step out and trying to resolve the refugee issue, by letting them in their country...the PA called it FRUITLESS!!! How dare they!!! "

How dare israel to take everything from this people, their houses, lands, etc. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JEWISH BUT PALESTINIAN.
There won't be a civil war in israel, palestinians in libanon and jordan created problems because they were foreigners, they had nothing in those already poor and foreign countries. Millions of refugees create problems, always in every part of the world. For them israel isn't a foreign country but the land where they have their roots. Any peace-deal dealing with the refugee-question can make garantees for israel that their demographic considerations would be considered and that the palestinians can be accomodated in an ordered way, not over one day as they arrived in libanon or jordan.

"you are truly a denier!!! You are speechless when i tell you that the arabs weren't budging on the war. You brought up the war and you lost it. And yet you never signed peace for it. "

1967 was a war started by israel. syria never signed for peace with israel because israel is still occupying parts of Syria, or do you consider this to be legitimate self-defense?
By the way I only made war with my sister untill now ;)


"But listen, im not talking about waht the Syrians wants to have relations with Israel......Im talking about how they acted in 1940's...They were the ones who ruined the relations and freedome for the palestinians....the palestininas weren't the ones fighting. it was the Jordanians and Syrians...and they made them lose! they were the arrogant one, they were the aggressors and they lost. How can you say they want to have relations only if Palestinians rights are observed when they march with there tanks and Phantom-5's and try to destroy israel. that is insane!!! "

That was more than 50 years ago!!!
a lot of things have changed in 50 years. jordan already made peace with israel and syria will do so if israel would give them back the occupied parts of syria.
fact is that israel was the one, after many decades, who mostly cleansed the palestinian population, and who occupies parts of other countries, not vice versa!


"Still, whatever it was it was an expulsion!!! People just don't say they want to move cause its sunnier. Russians were torchered in Russia and Syrian jews did not have any rights. We left for fear and we wanted a better life. There is nothing about zionism or any nationalistic movement.. infact if Zionism is so bad for you than so is Arab/Islamic Nationalism? And do you know why? because Arab Nationalism focuses on Pure Islamic Countries and Pan Arabism country where there would be an Empire of the whole 25 Arab countries in 1. So whats the difference? Jews wanted a homeland where they can live without pogroms and hatred, just because you don'