A case of split personality?

[Vic]

My fellow Muslims, we must fight anti-Semitism

In France, Muslim intellectuals and religious leaders have come out against attacks on Jews and Jewish religious institutions. Outstanding among them is Tariq Ramadan, who explains his beliefs.

http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=168205&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=168205

[L@mplighterM]

I don?t really know if this is a large division among Muslims and in any event when I read the article I saw that he left the door open to violence against Jews.

Part of Article:

Even when he identifies urges that have their source in economic distress and social frustration, or the desire to protest against Israel's oppressive policy, among people who express themselves in an anti-Semitic way and are involved in anti-Semitic acts, Ramadan refuses to demonstrate understanding or forgiveness toward them. He says: "The social and political forces in the Muslim communities must act to educate toward the delegitimization of elements of anti-Semitism. Leaders and imams have the responsibility to disseminate an unequivocal message about the profound connections between Islam and Judaism and Islam's recognition of Moses and the Torah."



This paragraph states clearly in part that he understands why they commit the acts but he disagrees with their actions.

What he?s saying is ?I understand what you do and why you do it but it?s wrong.?

Quite frankly I?ve never been able to understand the reasoning of psychopaths (suicide bombers, people defacing synagogues, etc.) To me they are psychopaths and they do what they do without reasoning or logic.


Then he drifts into the Koran and states that it recognizes Moses and the Torah.

[Pushtak18]

Tariq doesn't really bring pleasant words after 2 years of non-stop anti-semetic incidents that occured in france.


You cannot just tell a teenager who has the intent to commit a crime against jews to stop. We are not talking about angry adults here. We are talking about muslims who come from the 'gutter' of france society. We are talking about muslims who are 1st generation and whom have probably been born in a North Arican/Middle eastern country but then fled in the early ages. I am not talking about the average joe.

Tariq needs to see that there has to be a cooperation between jews and muslims. A sort of unity. He doesn't express that. He expresses a need to do a 'mini-intifhada' but to also stop attacking innnocent jews.

Kinda sounds like Arafat to me.

[Vic]

The curious part of it is that if Ramadan is sincere about his condemnation of antisemitism then he undermines the so-called "criticism of Israel". It's a fact of life in this part of the world that hardly anyone would give a damn about Palestinians, were it not that the presumable concern for their plight would offer such a convenient channel for voicing anti-jewish resentment. Take it away, deny it the publicity it enjoys at present, and in a short time the whole issue will be forgotten, Israel will be a kind of Afghanistan to the general public - which makes me wonder what Ramadan really wants to achieve.

The best explanation I can think of is healthy pragmatism: antisemitism is for immigrant communities a waste of valuable time and effort, which could be much better employed to advance the causes of immediate concern for them, such as legal and social issues in the countries they actually live in.

[Pushtak18]

Tariq Ramdan is just like any other Islamic moderate scholar. He trys to bring peace and abundance, but his words don't mean a thing unless you do action and convice his people to stop the madness.


What is the palestinians fight anyways?
I think that the main reason why the palestinians are still strugguling is because that there brothers and sisters, weather they live under harsh lives in Saudi arabia or not, dont give a damn about them. Now after September 2000, it seems that there is a Soap Opera about the palestinians.


No one really cares?

[takeo]

"You cannot just tell a teenager who has the intent to commit a crime against jews to stop. We are not talking about angry adults here. We are talking about muslims who come from the 'gutter' of france society. We are talking about muslims who are 1st generation and whom have probably been born in a North Arican/Middle eastern country but then fled in the early ages. I am not talking about the average joe. "

that's right
however there is cooperation between Jews and Arabs, at least in france, but as well among leftist Palestinians and leftist Israeli. this should be a model for the whole region.
of course the reason for antiisraeli feelings of most arabs is not anti-semitism but the tremendous suffering of the palestinians (not comparable at all to the israeli suffering), if you fail to see this you are blind. we have had much discussion about this issue and never the opponents could proove their theory that anti-israel = anti-semitism

[Pushtak18]

takeo,


first of all, if you look carefully...you would see that an avegage pro-palestinian protest is not ALL PALESTINIANS, there are other people from Algeria, indonesia and whatever.....i sometimes suppose if there is any?

But you have to understand that not all Palestiians are left and nor the Israelis are. How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews?

Would talk end a youth group being beaten by bats?

It always happened, its about understanding! And people always noted that the powerhouses such as Mosques and schools teach it.

its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim?

Is that justifiable?

[takeo]

"How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews? "

not because they're jews, but because they violated all kinds of international laws, and occupied and cleansed almost a whole population. If they would have been Argentines it wouldn't have been any different.



"its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim? "

i don't know, maybe the fundamentalists would but not the main-stream.
it is certainly politics, but not baseless. It is about the life of millions of palestinians.

[Pushtak18]

Originally Posted by Takeo
"How come Israelis who have their beliefs violated just because there jews? "

not because they're jews, but because they violated all kinds of international laws, and occupied and cleansed almost a whole population. If they would have been Argentines it wouldn't have been any different.



"its not religon, its pure baseless politics. And yet they don't want to call it anti-semetic. When a infidel tell muslims that it is wrong to 'struggle' and to have a jihad, they call that anti-muslim? "

i don't know, maybe the fundamentalists would but not the main-stream.
it is certainly politics, but not baseless. It is about the life of millions of palestinians.


1st off, whos we....are u accusing a French jew, who has never been to Israel, and has had familys anywhere but israel, mainly in French an occupier? How can accuse someone who is french, but due to his beliefs he has the right to take bats and knifes when attacked by morrocan muslim youths just because he was playing for the "MACCABI JEWISH SOCCER TEAM"...thats not justified, that pure racist content....


How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm :mad: Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country.

If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!!
I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?

[takeo]

hey man cool down, you don't seem to have read what i wrote...
it seems you took more propaganda than your health could take...


"1st off, whos we....are u accusing a French jew, who has never been to Israel, and has had familys anywhere but israel, mainly in French an occupier? How can accuse someone who is french, but due to his beliefs he has the right to take bats and knifes when attacked by morrocan muslim youths just because he was playing for the "MACCABI JEWISH SOCCER TEAM"...thats not justified, that pure racist content.... "

1) I have been to israel
2)i have not been attacked and i certainly don't think that anyone has the right to attack someone because of his religion.

"How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country. "

3) no, being Jewish is certainly not a crime, nor is being Muslim or Palestinian a crime
4) israel violated all kinds of un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions and some other international law. This has nothing to do with religion, anyone in similar position would be condamned, including indonesia occupying eastern timor.

"If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!! "

5) no of course so, you didn't read what i wrote. However this Eastern timor citizen would have the right to fight the indonesian army and indonesia was equally condamned for occupying Eastern timor.

"I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?"

a place for the Palestinians as well, who (used to) live in that same land as well.

[Iori Yagami]

Ugh, you frenchies are the last people on the surface of that planet that can accuse others of breaking international law. What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? Marrocco? The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean? The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was? Or was that a jewish plot too? The frequent attacks on jews in France? The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah?
And after all that, you come here, and whine. Bleh.

[takeo]

i see that you prefere to insult instead of going into a reasonable dialogue

"What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? "

many, many French were opposed to that war, and actually france let go algeria, after both algeria and france suffered a lot, the same israel will let go of palestine some day.


"The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean?"

what about the nuclear bombs of israel, a country not allowed to have nuclear weapons according to proliferation-agreements?

" The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was?"

I see you heard something about this in your propaganda-source. Vichy was a treatorous puppet-government set up in the South of france by the occupying nazi's, the only chance it could survive was by massive german military presence. But the French fought the nazi's as much as palestinians are fighting the israeli occupation, and many french risked their life to save jews from the germans or to do "terrorist acts" as you would call it against the nazi-occupier.


"The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah? "

Yes you are right, actually Chirac is the president of hisbollah :rolleyes:

[Pushtak18]

Originally posted by Takeo

"How can u accuse a religon who some of the people don't even have any sort of connections to israel an occupier or a violator. What did they violate? to be a jew?...hmmmmmm Hitler thought we did the same, yet back in the 1930's Jews never even had a right of soveirnty over a country. "

3) no, being Jewish is certainly not a crime, nor is being Muslim or Palestinian a crime
4) israel violated all kinds of un-resolutions and Geneva-conventions and some other international law. This has nothing to do with religion, anyone in similar position would be condamned, including indonesia occupying eastern timor.

"If you love to talk an accuse religon, why don't we bring up Islam. Not so long ago, Indonesia, which you can agree was a corrupted islamic state, occupied and committed terrible atrocities to what is now East Timor? So it fair that an East Timor citizen goes to a place, sees an Arab from Saudi Arabia and kills him, just because he has something to do with the pain he has suffered. This is mad talk!!!!! "

5) no of course so, you didn't read what i wrote. However this Eastern timor citizen would have the right to fight the indonesian army and indonesia was equally condamned for occupying Eastern timor.

"I can give you over 10 places today in the world where there is religous conflict due to Islam, agree with each conflict or not, is not the matter, but there are so many, many of the same nature....why pick on a country that is only 21,000 KM (squared)?????? what do you want to get out of it?"

a place for the Palestinians as well, who (used to) live in that same land as well


If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that. When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it.

Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass...

No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......

[Pushtak18]

Originally Posted by Takeo
see that you prefere to insult instead of going into a reasonable dialogue

"What about the thousands you`ve massacred in Algeria? "

many, many French were opposed to that war, and actually france let go algeria, after both algeria and france suffered a lot, the same israel will let go of palestine some day.


"The nuclear bombs you test at the Pacific ocean?"

what about the nuclear bombs of israel, a country not allowed to have nuclear weapons according to proliferation-agreements?

" The lovely Vichi government, or whatever its name was?"

I see you heard something about this in your propaganda-source. Vichy was a treatorous puppet-government set up in the South of france by the occupying nazi's, the only chance it could survive was by massive german military presence. But the French fought the nazi's as much as palestinians are fighting the israeli occupation, and many french risked their life to save jews from the germans or to do "terrorist acts" as you would call it against the nazi-occupier.


"The support Chirac gives to Hizbollah? "

Yes you are right, actually Chirac is the president of hisbollah



to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it. The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away.

2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe

as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin.

But for your knowledge, and to make your topic more 'spicier' let me just say a few words about the good'ol French Nuclear program, because if you thought your little country is safe and happy, think again!
the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that.
Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!!

So thers my 2 cents!

[takeo]

"If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that."

no single Jew in france is fearing for his life

" When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it. "

actually Chirac never had to fight for his reelection, he got 83% of the votes in the second round... Le Pen is just a phenomenon for people who are unhappy with some things, so they vote for an extremist, it happens everywhere in Europe as well as in the States and Israel.

"Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass... "

Indonesia was condamned by several un-resolutions for violating the geneva-conventions and for occupying Eastern timor, i have no sympathy at all for the indonesian politics. France condamned indonesia several times as well. Also Amnesty International condamned indonesia without cessation, not only once. The problem was that indonesia dictator Suharto, as Israel, was protected by the us, so the un couldn't take any real sanctions against indonesia.

No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......


"to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it."

they very much care for it, we all know that many israeli resist the israeli government policy against the palestinians.

"The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. "

Israel only offered some isolated islands to the Palestinians, "bantustans" as in South africa. The goal of Oslo was an independant palestinian state and also israel had to end its colonisation-policy, but Netanyahu didn't agree to the oslo-process from day one, and did not commit himself to execute the oslo-agreements. Camp david 2000 was not acceptable to the palestinians because mainly no solution was found for millions of refugees and becase the palestinian state wouldn't have an own border with Jordan.

"But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away. "

you are right about hamas and jihad, they never wanted peace, as well as some israeli radical politicians! But they don't represent the majority of the palestinian people. only 20% support hamas according to polls, more or less 20% of israeli support extremist parties as well.

"2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe "


:mad: the nuclear bomb isn't a joke, millions of people can be killed, and some nuclear bombs can destroy israel completely. i think if israel would have used it it would mean the end of Israel, because countries as Iran and pakistan have nuclear weapons too and will certainly use it when israel launches the first bomb on a muslim country. By the way bombing Syria with nuclear bombs in 1973 would certainly have provoked a soviet reaction, Syria was an ally of the SU. It would have been easier to give back the golan to syria than to use the nuclear bomb wouldn't it?
according to international agreements israel nor any other country than china, US, SU, france, GB had the right to produce nuclear bombs.
if israel feels the right to produce nuclear bombs because it feels treatened than iraq, Libanon and Syria have that right too, they feel treatened as well.


"as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin. "

maybe so, but the us gave nuclear weapons to israel, so who's blaming who?

"the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that. "

the us did the same in the bikini-islands in the pacific ocean, and as well in the nevada-desert.

"Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!! "

LOL,
what you are referring to happened in the 80's not in 1994/95, it is regrettable, but this kind of practises is business as usual for the mossad,,who specialise in killing people by car-bombs, and the israeli army who even kill stone-trowing children.
I can tell you one thing, if israel would ever attack France it will look like ground-zero within seconds.
we treat the arabs here properly and as normal citizens so they don't feel any need to "sodomise" france.

[Pushtak18]

Orginally posted by Takeo
"If it is not a crime to be a jew, why are so many jews in France fearing for there life. It can't be justifiable that Jews have fear just because of whats going on 5000KM away from them!!! It just can't. You are france, and i see that."

no single Jew in france is fearing for his life

" When you see the world hate, fight,occupation, you think differently...then you ask the world why you have Chirac fighting for his life in the polls why LE PEN might make a big scene. Infact, i think LE PEN got more sympathizers not just in France but around the globe. Why? Its because of the issues that go on in France itself. But this is a Internal problem and im not france, so you go solve it. "

actually Chirac never had to fight for his reelection, he got 83% of the votes in the second round... Le Pen is just a phenomenon for people who are unhappy with some things, so they vote for an extremist, it happens everywhere in Europe as well as in the States and Israel.

"Another thing which i brought up was indonesia! Not one in the islamic world threaten to protest about the occupation and atrocities that was going on in the islands. The arab newspapers hardley ever spoke of it and when they did they condoned the Indonesian army of getting 'rid' of the ruthless infidels that live in Indonesia. Amnesty international (corrupted!!!) condemend it once, than got a phone call and i guess some under the table money and then never got anything else to say. Thats showbusiness in the Islamic world!!! So you see....they never did anything, they respected what indonesia did. And even today, the cold cowardly hatred that Chinese indonesians get is insane! How come no one is condemning it? your french? perhaps your even a muslim? why don't you go protest for the Indonesian chritians?? cause in your geneva book it is always right to wait outside a church and blow up kids after a midnight mass... "

Indonesia was condamned by several un-resolutions for violating the geneva-conventions and for occupying Eastern timor, i have no sympathy at all for the indonesian politics. France condamned indonesia several times as well. Also Amnesty International condamned indonesia without cessation, not only once. The problem was that indonesia dictator Suharto, as Israel, was protected by the us, so the un couldn't take any real sanctions against indonesia.

No truth, no justice, the Islamic way.......




For your first argument about jews & France. When you tell me that no jew is fearing for there life in France, than my friend, that is a baseless lie. Perhaps even a propaganda. When you have a jew who 'fear' of wearing a religon head cap, or having anything related to jew, than that i call fear. When you have death threats about possible bombing of a synagogue, than that is a threat. To tell me that Jews are safe and sound in France is a propostrous idea that only one can ever think of.

secondly, about Chirac.......The voting was pretty much intresting. Because of the fact that Chirac internally, and externally made many problems, He lost alot of support. Le Pen came in, because he promised to fix gaps that Chirac could not fix. Yes; he is racist, but the fact is, that so is Chirac. Chirac is baseless and arrogant, and I think the French public we're rather blind because both of these men are nothing mroe than "bastards", except for the fact that Chirac became overwhelmingly scared when his Foe, Le Pen made it to the 2nd round. He decided to make media sponsored rallied in every french capital denouncing Le Pen, and ofcourse Le Pen hates French and Muslims so he got a good 5 million supporters there. But the matter of the point is that no one heard Le Pen and what he was going to do? what did you get out of Chirac?

lastly, about Indonesia...
No! There was not even one Islamic state that condemend it. Yes, they were UN resolutions pass forth, but none in which put blame and condemend Indonesia for one thing that they commited, All the UN resoultion asked for was for a peace aggreement and a solution to the problem. The Indonesians rejected, and by the 3rd or 4th resolution it got passed and Australians got involved, not the US. But the fact is that it took 4 resolutions to condemn it? why?? Cause you have islamic country delegates who veto each one like they don't care! So i find this a little unfair, wouldn't you think?

[Pushtak18]

Origanally posted by Takeo
to your first argument...about french opposition to what its country has done...well, there are many Israelis who are oppose to Israeli Occupation, yet the Palestinian Sympathizers do not seem to care about it."

they very much care for it, we all know that many israeli resist the israeli government policy against the palestinians.

"The thing that many of your pro-palestinians do not hesitate to understand was that, there is a peace process (or was) to give the palestinians a homeland, with economy, free security and anything you can ask for in exchange, Israel will make peace, get 3-7% of the land, and divide jerusalem up, but as according to demographic and not rights...Well what did the palestinian delegates do? They called up the R.O.R...in the Wye River accord, Arafat never dared to call it, and nor did he ever speak of it. It was a new topic. and in my case it is an obsolete thing. "

Israel only offered some isolated islands to the Palestinians, "bantustans" as in South africa. The goal of Oslo was an independant palestinian state and also israel had to end its colonisation-policy, but Netanyahu didn't agree to the oslo-process from day one, and did not commit himself to execute the oslo-agreements. Camp david 2000 was not acceptable to the palestinians because mainly no solution was found for millions of refugees and becase the palestinian state wouldn't have an own border with Jordan.

"But back to what i was saying, the peace process which is suppose to determine the palestinian state is in jeopardy, not because of the fact that israel is still occupaying 'it' but because the palestinians have rejected it. Im not telling you that you should go back to the camp david. What i am saying is that you wanted what is going on right now. Even in peaceful times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have rejected to the peace process and yet, today they are the ones who are destabilizing it. Look at me for one, i was a leftist many years ago! I wanted the palestinians right more then you did, i even went and made some friends in the 90's when i bought Pita from them in places like Tulkarem and Qalkilia, i was hopeful. What made me change? well it was the suicide bombings! They are the ones that took my trust away. "

you are right about hamas and jihad, they never wanted peace, as well as some israeli radical politicians! But they don't represent the majority of the palestinian people. only 20% support hamas according to polls, more or less 20% of israeli support extremist parties as well.

"2 your 2nd question, yes; Israel does have the nuclear bomb. Did it use it? no! Did it upgrade it? no! it still has it. and when you live in a country that is close to Iran, Syria and Iraq, than you have to put up fear. These country don't have democracy. These country a ruled by religous, fanatical, miliary regimes...and you tell us that it is illegal for us to have a it? that is just pure biasism at its best!! Israel never used it, and it was the greatest help we got in 1973 war, because Syrian intelligence feared that if they would infiltrate more of the Golan Heights, Israel will launch and all out Nuclear assault on Aleepo and Damascaus!! if that would be true, than we shall call the Syrians after nuking and occupying them Palestinians too!!! hehehehe "


the nuclear bomb isn't a joke, millions of people can be killed, and some nuclear bombs can destroy israel completely. i think if israel would have used it it would mean the end of Israel, because countries as Iran and pakistan have nuclear weapons too and will certainly use it when israel launches the first bomb on a muslim country. By the way bombing Syria with nuclear bombs in 1973 would certainly have provoked a soviet reaction, Syria was an ally of the SU. It would have been easier to give back the golan to syria than to use the nuclear bomb wouldn't it?
according to international agreements israel nor any other country than china, US, SU, france, GB had the right to produce nuclear bombs.
if israel feels the right to produce nuclear bombs because it feels treatened than iraq, Libanon and Syria have that right too, they feel treatened as well.


"as for the French, well....when it comes to Nuclear and french, let me just state that it is worser than the Iraqis. Infact, i think the French along with the russians have made nuclear and biological programs in countrys such as Iran/Iraq, which if they find you were guilty and trust me, they would find you, than you would yourself be aquitted to some sanctions and embassy closin. "

maybe so, but the us gave nuclear weapons to israel, so who's blaming who?

"the France tested out Biological weapons as early as 1995, it was condmened and what they done exactly was use water force. If it was gone wrong they could have poisoned the pacific ocean, for all i care. Other than that, they tested it near grounds where civilians were. They forced them out, and to who knows where and they simply 'nuked there houses'? Now.....isn't that a sort of occupation and then forceful demolation!!!! And your government does that. "

the us did the same in the bikini-islands in the pacific ocean, and as well in the nevada-desert.

"Next, go to Greenpeace, which puts you, not Iraq in the top list as enemys? why? because back in 1994/1995, some Greenpeace activist went missing. It wasn't a big story, but it got some publicity that the security gaurds whom i forgot what there name or organization was, killed them and as the article said "threw there bodied in the water....." so you telling me this is justifiable! It is not, this is disgusting. France should get sanctioned like Iraq! let anarchy rule Paris!! let the Muslim community show what it can do by looting and raping, and sodomizing the country as lep pen put it....Let it be an anarchist place! Yugoslavia will look like a baby after what will happen in France sooner or later!!! "

LOL,
what you are referring to happened in the 80's not in 1994/95, it is regrettable, but this kind of practises is business as usual for the mossad,,who specialise in killing people by car-bombs, and the israeli army who even kill stone-trowing children.
I can tell you one thing, if israel would ever attack France it will look like ground-zero within seconds.
we treat the arabs here properly and as normal citizens so they don't feel any need to "sodomise" france.


About the Palestinians helping the israeli left, well let me just say that every time there is a suicide attack or any form of attack. You lose fans. You still critizise israel and want to demonize it, but you must understand that there are people in Israel who are willing for a palestinians state, but the problem is that if Terrorism is on anyone, than whats the point. Ofcourse you can say the same for the Palestinians, but the Palestinians never had an intrest in peace. They always looked for different solution, thus there is an Hamas and the Islamic Jihad! You would condone them and favour them, but in any attack you would decategorised them..sonds like a split personality to me!

2ndly about the Camp David & Peace process, you must understand that Israel offered them a palestinian state. meaning you would have 97% of all of west bank which the west bank is along with 100% of gaza totalling little more than 25% of israel, to make a state, which is governemd and has economy, tourism and anything that you possibly think of? Did Arafat think of anything else? no! he just walked out. He might not be the one to blame ofcourse, your president who you soo honorably elected (probably with a fraud scam), and Hosni moubarak encouraged Arafat to suspend the talks and leave. Meanwhile, when Arafat suspended the talks, he encourage the fight for independence, like the mini-inifhada of 1998, was unnacceptable with the arab world. Arafat let something go. And as the quoting says... "THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALWAYS MISSING THE OPPROTUNITY".
Netenyahu never ever made it impossible for peace talks. Netenyahu made the Hebron accord & the wye river accords....infact, he made more aggrements with the palestinians than any other prime minister in israel. Yes; he did want first a security, than talks, but this was ofcourse was his goal was when he first elected and defeated shimon Perez. He fought hard for security and with the 2 accords that were signed, we got them. There was terrorism, but not the same as 1993-1996. From 1996-2000 (pre-sept) there was hardly a sign of terrorism floating. Yes, there was terrorism, even big, suicidal ones. But in the end, you know who favoured most from it? The Palestinians! From 1996, they offically FIXED there reputation from the Crime they did in 1991 with iraq and for the first time held elections as well as saw an increase in toursim. So you have a so to be state and a good economy? so what did Arafat do? He declared an intifhada! And you wonder why he was so pissed off when he was without lights in the israeli incursions?

[Pushtak18]

FOR TAKEO


As for the refugee problem! It won't work! If you read the Geneva Convetions carefully it states on a country that fully engages in war with another. Meaning that, if it was a vice-versa situation, where the Arabs would win and make the Israelis refugees than what would happen??? Kick them all to Europe again?? Smart idea...but the fact is, like me and so many, we didn't come from Europe...my family came from Syria, but that wasn't the point. The point is that the Geneva convention states that it is your responsibility for casualties of war. If you commit a war crime that is one thing, if you win a war and make refugees it is not. Its simply a matter of Islamic Arrogance and uncompromise that after 3 major wars that 600,000 Arabs made refugees yet, in those times, they could have intergrated in the Arab world. Instead, they doubled and became 4 million and now you expecting them to return back to Israel? That is insane?? Don't you think of our security, of our right? what kind of peace do you want to succeed with Israel if you want the whole thing. I rather ULTRA-OCCUPY you, make settlements faster than a baby growing and enforce many gadgets and weapons along the borders so you suckers won't be able to get something from it! :)

but that is not the Israeli way, probably the algerian way.....

About the nuclear bomb, yes i know that it is not a joke. And no, you are wrong, there wasn't a treaty that says that US, GB, france and whole lot other countries can have it? That is one of the most pathetic bulls i have ever heard on here. So your telling me if you have a maniac like Le Pen in the parliment, than he is crazy, why doesn't he nuke Algeria or Norther Morroco??? :) would u give the bomb to the french?
Sure, French is democratic in all, but they still have alot to go, before than...but on any account Israel, as well is the same as France. We never touched the bomb and we'll probably never use it. But we shall keep it and use it as the last code for the defence if necessary. This was helpful as i said with the Syrians, and yes it would have been bad if it was used, but the fact is the Syrians went bannans trying to figure where the baby was...they halted there tanks on the Golan line and than israel got in and swooped them out!!!! thanks to the A-Bomb :) hehehe

And no, Iraq is not threatened by anyone. Only illigitimate propgadist like you would think so. You also think that sucide bombing is legitimate? what are you going to....trying to burn the world up?
Iraq, illegally makes its nuclear/chem/bio weapons...they threatened nearly every country that is near them. They even used it on one of them, which is Iran and even more so, the kurds who are residents of Iraq. So telling me that Iraq needs a Nuke is insane!!!!!!!! Did Israel use a nuclear on the palestinians or there own people...

its not about democracy its about fanaticism....and you undoubtably support that.

As for the French nuclear bomb thing. They had no legitimate reason to use it and even to begin with. America owned that land. Those land never really belond to the French, and yet they took advantage of it. The killiing in the 80s of the Greenpeace activist was never condemendd and no compensation has been giving. And as for mossad...it doesn't blow up cars as you think. Mossad is extremely logistical matters, which detects intelligence. When we go after and 'blow' them up they deserve it. What if i was to kill your mother and father and sister and anyone you can think of! i did a massacre and i ran?! I am not a free man...in a specific church around Bethlehem? Wouldn't u want me to get justice for the crimes i committed? and when i cant? Than you go for the last remaining thing which is punishming me....blow me up!!!!!!!!

You would do it for your own family, but condemn it for the israelis..

pure biasims!

So what are u anyways?

[Mediocrates]

I am not sure which one of you made this statement:

maybe so, but the us gave nuclear weapons to israel, so who's blaming who?


But it is not true.

1) The French built the Dimona reactor for the Israelis in the 50's as payment in kind for their participation in the '56 war. It is the source of virtually all nuclear weapons science and engineering.
2) The US funded the development of a much smaller research reactor which is to this day under scruntiny by the NRC and DoE.
3) Israel has never confirmed or denied the existence of a nuclear weapons program. The closest they have ever come is the official statement "Israel will not be the first state to use nuclear weapons in the Mid East". Modern technolofy dictates that warheads must be constantly maintained else they dissipate their effectiveness ~3-5% per year as the Tritium component degrades. This mandates that weapons grade facilities be left online permanently.
4) Israel has not signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty.
5) Current estimates are that Israel has from 60-100 nuclear weapons of varying size.
6) Israel's offensive missile program both ballistic and cruise is probably not developed enough to serve as the primary delivery platform for most of their nuclear weapons consequently, it is posed that most operational nuclear weapons would be aircraft delivered, air dropped bombs.

[Pushtak18]

Mediocrates,


About the the way israel would use a nuclear warhead..im not sure if they would use or drop the bomb....that is one method and i think it is the last.

Israel has Jericho-2 which is a ballistic warhead, than can reach souther Russia, and pretty much any Middle eastern, North African, Central European country! This can go about 3400+ KM, hitting any IRANIAN city and maybe even Afganistan, and yes; It can carry about a good percentage of nuclear warhead with it.

Israel is not keen on its weaponary and missiles. It has a good airforce and that is the firsrt thing it uses. Missiles for this purpose were ment for Iran or Iraq. Our Airfoce can take them down, but it will be our last call to use a Warhead against those maniacs :)

[takeo]

For your first argument about jews & France. When you tell me that no jew is fearing for there life in France, than my friend, that is a baseless lie. Perhaps even a propaganda. When you have a jew who 'fear' of wearing a religon head cap, or having anything related to jew, than that i call fear. When you have death threats about possible bombing of a synagogue, than that is a threat. To tell me that Jews are safe and sound in France is a propostrous idea that only one can ever think of.

secondly, about Chirac.......The voting was pretty much intresting. Because of the fact that Chirac internally, and externally made many problems, He lost alot of support. Le Pen came in, because he promised to fix gaps that Chirac could not fix. Yes; he is racist, but the fact is, that so is Chirac. Chirac is baseless and arrogant, and I think the French public we're rather blind because both of "these men are nothing mroe than "bastards", except for the fact that Chirac became overwhelmingly scared when his Foe, Le Pen made it to the 2nd round. He decided to make media sponsored rallied in every french capital denouncing Le Pen, and ofcourse Le Pen hates French and Muslims so he got a good 5 million supporters there. But the matter of the point is that no one heard Le Pen and what he was going to do? what did you get out of Chirac? "

i guess you know better than Jewish people who live in France :rolleyes:
Chirac has its dark sides but i would prefere a 100 times Chirac instead of your fuhrer annex warcriminal Sharon. france is a country were every race has the same chance, and nobody has less rights because of his religion or race, VERY different from your little country. And i have been to Israel, so i know the difference...


"lastly, about Indonesia...
No! There was not even one Islamic state that condemend it. Yes, they were UN resolutions pass forth, but none in which put blame and condemend Indonesia for one thing that they commited, All the UN resoultion asked for was for a peace aggreement and a solution to the problem. The Indonesians rejected, and by the 3rd or 4th resolution it got passed and Australians got involved, not the US. But the fact is that it took 4 resolutions to condemn it? why?? Cause you have islamic country delegates who veto each one like they don't care! So i find this a little unfair, wouldn't you think?"

the fact is that indonesia was condamned too by the UN, for the same reason as israel was condamned, and no single muslim country has veto-right in the UN.

[takeo]

"About the Palestinians helping the israeli left, well let me just say that every time there is a suicide attack or any form of attack. You lose fans. You still critizise israel and want to demonize it, but you must understand that there are people in Israel who are willing for a palestinians state, but the problem is that if Terrorism is on anyone, than whats the point. Ofcourse you can say the same for the Palestinians, but the Palestinians never had an intrest in peace. They always looked for different solution, thus there is an Hamas and the Islamic Jihad! You would condone them and favour them, but in any attack you would decategorised them..sonds like a split personality to me! "

not all palestinians want to destroy israel and support hamas. however ALL Palestinians hate the israeli colonisers and the idf.
Terrorism will stop if the palestinians get their rights, that's why every israeli has interest in defending peace.
what you call split personality is just the contrary of your very simplistic view.

"2ndly about the Camp David & Peace process, you must understand that Israel offered them a palestinian state. meaning you would have 97% of all of west bank which the west bank is along with 100% of gaza totalling little more than 25% of israel, to make a state, which is governemd and has economy, tourism and anything that you possibly think of? Did Arafat think of anything else? no! he just walked out. He might not be the one to blame ofcourse, your president who you soo honorably elected (probably with a fraud scam), and Hosni moubarak encouraged Arafat to suspend the talks and leave. Meanwhile, when Arafat suspended the talks, he encourage the fight for independence, like the mini-inifhada of 1998, was unnacceptable with the arab world. Arafat let something go. And as the quoting says... "THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALWAYS MISSING THE OPPROTUNITY". "

What Israel offered to "arafat" was totally unsufficient, no free borders, airspace, no solution for the refugees, etc. Israel will have to come with something better if it wants peace. Palestinians will accept any peace-offer based on the un-resolutions.
But chirac never had any influence on the oslo-agreements.


"Netenyahu never ever made it impossible for peace talks. Netenyahu made the Hebron accord & the wye river accords....infact, he made more aggrements with the palestinians than any other prime minister in israel. Yes; he did want first a security, than talks, but this was ofcourse was his goal was when he first elected and defeated shimon Perez. He fought hard for security and with the 2 accords that were signed, we got them. There was terrorism, but not the same as 1993-1996. From 1996-2000 (pre-sept) there was hardly a sign of terrorism floating. Yes, there was terrorism, even big, suicidal ones. But in the end, you know who favoured most from it? The Palestinians! From 1996, they offically FIXED there reputation from the Crime they did in 1991 with iraq and for the first time held elections as well as saw an increase in toursim. So you have a so to be state and a good economy? so what did Arafat do? He declared an intifhada! And you wonder why he was so pissed off when he was without lights in the israeli incursions?"

blabla, netanyahu build many illegal israeli settlements in palestine, in violation of oslo, and he didn't commit to the time-table agreed upon which would result in an independant palestine in 1999.
how would you feel if the french occupied parts of israel and destroyed israeli villages to build french colonies?
Palestinians didn't commit crimes "with Iraq".
When israel wants a total end to terrorism it should make a total end to all occupation of the territories occupied after 1967 and transform israel into a country where people who lived in israel for many generations could live again along their jewish neighbours.





As for the refugee problem! It won't work! If you read the Geneva Convetions carefully it states on a country that fully engages in war with another. Meaning that, if it was a vice-versa situation, where the Arabs would win and make the Israelis refugees than what would happen??? Kick them all to Europe again?? Smart idea...but the fact is, like me and so many, we didn't come from Europe...my family came from Syria, but that wasn't the point. The point is that the Geneva convention states that it is your responsibility for casualties of war. If you commit a war crime that is one thing, if you win a war and make refugees it is not. Its simply a matter of Islamic Arrogance and uncompromise that after 3 major wars that 600,000 Arabs made refugees yet, in those times, they could have intergrated in the Arab world. Instead, they doubled and became 4 million and now you expecting them to return back to Israel? That is insane?? Don't you think of our security, of our right? what kind of peace do you want to succeed with Israel if you want the whole thing. I rather ULTRA-OCCUPY you, make settlements faster than a baby growing and enforce many gadgets and weapons along the borders so you suckers won't be able to get something from it! "

OK, do it and israel won't know any peace for decades and many more israeli will die. occupation and aggression will result in more hate against israel, more isolation and more war. And if you continue treating the palestinians as animals that's exactly what israel deserves. israel has the right to security and has rights too, but the palestinians as well, many palestinians live already inside israel and those have never created a problem for israel, only if you treat them badly as the refugees and WB-Gaza palestinians they will take revenge.
israel has the right to win the war but not to etnic cleanse the CIVILIAN population from israel, or the refuse the refugees to return, read carefully the Geneva-conventions please. If they are now with more than before that's the price israel has to pay for refusing to face the problem for many decades.



"About the nuclear bomb, yes i know that it is not a joke. And no, you are wrong, there wasn't a treaty that says that US, GB, france and whole lot other countries can have it? That is one of the most pathetic bulls i have ever heard on here. So your telling me if you have a maniac like Le Pen in the parliment, than he is crazy, why doesn't he nuke Algeria or Norther Morroco??? would u give the bomb to the french?
Sure, French is democratic in all, but they still have alot to go, before than...but on any account Israel, as well is the same as France. We never touched the bomb and we'll probably never use it. But we shall keep it and use it as the last code for the defence if necessary. This was helpful as i said with the Syrians, and yes it would have been bad if it was used, but the fact is the Syrians went bannans trying to figure where the baby was...they halted there tanks on the Golan line and than israel got in and swooped them out!!!! thanks to the A-Bomb hehehe "

hehehe the golan heights belong to syria, they have every right to attack and bomb israel as long as israel doesn't stop occupying it. if anyone would occupy parts of france we would certainly bomb that country to pieces.yes there is a nuclear proliferation treaty that limits the use of nuclear weapons to those countries, that's why pakistan and india got embargoed recently, and that's why weapons inspectors are in iraq and north-korea.

[takeo]

"And no, Iraq is not threatened by anyone. Only illigitimate propgadist like you would think so. You also think that sucide bombing is legitimate? what are you going to....trying to burn the world up?
Iraq, illegally makes its nuclear/chem/bio weapons...they threatened nearly every country that is near them. They even used it on one of them, which is Iran and even more so, the kurds who are residents of Iraq. So telling me that Iraq needs a Nuke is insane!!!!!!!! Did Israel use a nuclear on the palestinians or there own people... "

israel has those weapons too, would it make attacks against israel legal and good? israel also treatened nearly every country near them, egypt was attacked two times, libanon and tunisia once, syria, palestine, jordan, etc.
no, israel didn't use a nuke (yet) but neither did iraq.
iraq is treatened by daily aggressions by the US on its territory, many people got killed by us-bombs on iraq, even if iraq didn't attack any country since more than 10 years...


"its not about democracy its about fanaticism....and you undoubtably support that. "

you support likud and sharon so you're a fanatic. in the whole of western europe sharon is viewed as a fanatic and a war-criminal.


". And as for mossad...it doesn't blow up cars as you think. Mossad is extremely logistical matters, which detects intelligence. When we go after and 'blow' them up they deserve it. What if i was to kill your mother and father and sister and anyone you can think of! i did a massacre and i ran?! I am not a free man...in a specific church around Bethlehem? Wouldn't u want me to get justice for the crimes i committed? and when i cant? Than you go for the last remaining thing which is punishming me....blow me up!!!!!!!!
"

the mossad is not about justice but about murdering anyone against the interests of israel, that's a big difference. Many ennemies of israel have been murdered in car-bombs, guess who organised those attacks? if the palestinians use the same methods against murderers of the israeli army or palestinian-haters as Zeevi, than they are "terrorists"

"You would do it for your own family, but condemn it for the israelis.. "

i would not defend my family if they were oppressing other people as israel as doing.


"1) The French built the Dimona reactor for the Israelis in the 50's as payment in kind for their participation in the '56 war. It is the source of virtually all nuclear weapons science and engineering.
2) The US funded the development of a much smaller research reactor which is to this day under scruntiny by the NRC and DoE.
3) Israel has never confirmed or denied the existence of a nuclear weapons program. The closest they have ever come is the official statement "Israel will not be the first state to use nuclear weapons in the Mid East". Modern technolofy dictates that warheads must be constantly maintained else they dissipate their effectiveness ~3-5% per year as the Tritium component degrades. This mandates that weapons grade facilities be left online permanently.
4) Israel has not signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty.
5) Current estimates are that Israel has from 60-100 nuclear weapons of varying size.
6) Israel's offensive missile program both ballistic and cruise is probably not developed enough to serve as the primary delivery platform for most of their nuclear weapons consequently, it is posed that most operational nuclear weapons would be aircraft delivered, air dropped bombs."

that's all very true, the us helped israel with its programm, so did france.

about 4) true, but neither did pakistan or india (and i think iran and north-korea as well), and those countries have been condamned for devellopping nuclear weapons by the un.

" "Israel will not be the first state to use nuclear weapons in the Mid East"

i am not so sure about this, if israel would loose a war on the ground it will certainly use nuclear weapons, even against countries who don't possess nuclear weapons.



"Israel has Jericho-2 which is a ballistic warhead, than can reach souther Russia, and pretty much any Middle eastern, North African, Central European country! This can go about 3400+ KM, hitting any IRANIAN city and maybe even Afganistan, and yes; It can carry about a good percentage of nuclear warhead with it. "

it probably can reach france too, but our missiles can reach israel too!!!

[Mediocrates]

i am not so sure about this, if israel would loose a war on the ground it will certainly use
nuclear weapons, even against countries who don't possess nuclear weapons.


It matters little what you are sure of. That is the official statement of policy of the Israeli government.

[Pushtak18]

Originally posted by Takeo


Yes, of course i understand the nature of France. And of course i don't trust president chirac in any possible terms, but the fact is that there is anti-semitism and its a growing problem. People fear for there lives. Many muslims fear that if more anti-semtism had begun, it would provoke hatred and more sympathy for Le Pen. Le Pen wanted the Arabs! He ofcourse was known for his anti-semetic remarks, but none the less he wanted the arabs. In his point of view he saw them as people who create high unemployment, make crimes; especially the organized ones, sell drugs, rape, and make major citiies like bordeux, marseille, lyon and espececially paris, more frightning. People had sympthaty for that, i wasn't a fan, but if i had lived in France and under the brutality of my neighbours, than i would have voted for him.

But a good scenario here is this....Your french, you got citizen, im not sure if your arab, or chritian, or just a supporter..you never told me! But on any case, what if the 5 million muslims, declare there own sort of independence. What if they want a piece of France in the south-eastern area, just a little land, probably the side of Israel and they would commit crimes and atrocities until they get it? of course, the french a pro-arab and they see it as maybe an opprotunity, but again it take there right away? how would u feel about it? and lets say that Muslim countries support this new state with muslims living in there? Just wanted to know :)

Now....About Indonesia.....you have a sort of 'get wrong' idea for what happened in and around 1997-1999... Indonesia, was making a sort of military coupe in the island of East Timor. They needed there independence, but it not fair to go deep on this issue. but what is, is that Indonesia, like as you loved to say Israel, tried for no apparent reason to colonialize it. the fact that Israel, was threatned by war and then won the superiority of that war and later occupied land in in the end would exchange it for peace, was something the arabs would never understand. But back to Indonesia, topic. I followed it pretty well, after my visit there in 1998, i saw the big picture. There was atrocities committed and yet, no one is claiming responsibility and is putten under the table. then you go to mid 1998, where the UN starts looking at it, and you see muslim countries vetoing against a vote to "PROTECT" the citizens of East Timor, not until Australia comes in and then does its own protection. E. Timors best friend ofcourse is Australia. The thing with Israel, that many hate to understand is that Israel WILL, yes WILL give back the land on a peace settlement!! Yet, in other places where you have occupation, im sorry to say you do, than you don't have peace agreements or any agreement for a withdrawl. You ever see China trying to withdrawl from Macau??? you ever see Syria withdrawling and stoping to bitch Lebanon? you ever see that???NO! but in the palestinian/israeli issue there is, and israel is willing to give back land and make more only on the terms if we ger 3-7% of the land and there will be a cooperation on the jerusalem issue, and the Right of Return for refugees will not be determined by Israel but Arab states and perhaps European/Asian and the rest world. I think that with around 4 million people, you can give them refugee in a great part!

So what are u complaining about?

[Pushtak18]

The people who detter the peace process away from the center stage are the same people who commit terror. Yes, there was a slip from terror in the 'good days' of the peace process, but after Sept. 2000, Arafat decided to not put a hold on them and took off with killing his own people and israelis!! Why, cause he thought an uprising would be better than peaceful solution. But arafat won't the other way.


When you see Hamas and you support there suicidal bombings as a legitimate thing for the end of occupation than i call that propsturous. THe more suicide bombing you will have the more left supports you will lose, the more international sympathy you would fail and the more wait you will get for a Palestinian state. Look at the history...stop thinking that the last 2 years of bloodshed means the past 10 years for Oslo. It isn't!!!!!!! The Palestinians never had an autonomy and never had there own rule in a certain place, and yet when they have it, they start making bomb factories and other insitutes that promote anti-peace. And when you foreigner see, you see it as a legitimate way to the fustration of the palestinian people. It is not!!! It is a way to make the peace process more simplistic and its not working. The terror will stop when they will want a palestinian state. Right now, these people do not care about life, don't care about there own people, would want to see death and hegemony being committed and they don't care, why? cause they have support by ignorant people and unfortunetly people like you. :(


About the peace process, well......Yes, at the begining of Camp David it wasn't the best offer. But it outlined something very important, a palestinian state and the legitimacy of a free democratic state along side another democratic state in harmony and freedom. What did arafat do? he was 'insulted' and left....he never made any more agreements, he declared that he would persuse indepence in every means around september and he is the realy Victor here (Showing the ignorant V sign with his fingers) that he truly beat the US and Israel in there own game. He knew that people would uprise, but he never knew when? Even when the infifhada statred, Ehud Barak made it possible and told Arafat to clamp down on the rioting. He didn't do it..And it started more and more and more and it didn't stop. There was breakthroughs, but than again, the blame is back on Arafat, cause he only sat in Ramallah like an idiot and talked rhetoric. When Taba agreements came, Israel still managed to give more and finally Arafat saw an agreement, but than again....made every pressure to put pressure on it. Something like that could have been finalized and made a deal in maybe Late August. Arafat didn't do that, he made it till the last minute....and then regretted it. Thats his problem...Like bush said...he let his people down!

Netenyahu, was commited to the peace process and yes, he made settelements, but he was committed to dismantling many of them and to building peace with the Palestinians. He made it possible when he signed the Hebron Agreement and later forth the wye river agreement. He gave the Palestinians a taste of ruling when he let Arafat run all of GAZA, what happened in the end? gaza is a hamas headquarters and a sham!!! Why is it? you tell me?
1999 was suposed to be the date, but the wye river accord stated that it will be later forth. And ofcourse in 1999, Netanyahu lost in the polls to Ehud Barak who stated that he would be willing to make the peace process. Even further, he talked with clinton. Clinton invented the camp david, Ehud Barak initiated it and Arafat accpeted it. He was more than willing to go the forth distance. And it would have been a palestinian state already...if you didn't have the Islamic Autrocratic Regime that is spilling the blood of your people! Its tryant, its ruthless...its islam

The refugee problem is complex but than again, look at the ways that it started. The arabs rejected the recognition of an arab state and wanted war. :( they lost and with that had refugees....they let them live as lower citizens and they didn't give them anything. They only made them more angried and more anti-israel. If they had made them and would let them live in there kingdoms or there regimes i think that would'nt have harmed them, but to let them ALL 4 Milion live in Israel, is Insane!!!! If i was to throw 4 million in America it would be insane!! you don't know Socio-economics and Israel is not going to be binded into an agreements that redecules them and makes a county with around 21,000KM jamm packed with nearly 11 million people not to mention another 4 million in the WB/GAZA! This is insane and it won't work.

Now let me ask you this. What if the arabs would have won the war? what do you think the Jews would have done? do you think that you'll make us refugee's?? Sure! Do you think that you will kill us? Probably, but you wouldn't have been better than what is going on right now. And yes, you would never have us live in Israel again. Even more, let me just add that if there was no Israel than probably the people who would fight over 'palestine' would be Jordan who got the most of it from King Adbulla 1st who came from Saudi Arabia....and probably the other countires would be egypt and syria fighting for it. No one would be intrested in it.

But back to my point...If Jews were the losers in the arab-israeli wars, than i would highly doubt that you would ever let us live. The wars that happened in 1948 and even until 1982...was for the annhilation of Israel! Do you think Jordan/Syria and the gang would attack Israel? for what? to liberize the arabs? No! To try and make us unlegitimate.

you know and we know it......

And what if i talked to you about the expulsions, pogroms and liguidations that occured in the arab world from 1920-1950 directly against the jews??? Like me, i am on of them. my family came to Israel in the 1920's after fledding Syria. There was pogroms and life was bad. Yes, the refugees found home and today, i rightly deserve compesation from Syria, but i dont want there Islamic satatnic money. I don't care about it! I care about the country that i know reside in..........

so you see, its a 2-2 game here :(

[takeo]

"Yes, of course i understand the nature of France. And of course i don't trust president chirac in any possible terms, but the fact is that there is anti-semitism and its a growing problem. People fear for there lives. Many muslims fear that if more anti-semtism had begun, it would provoke hatred and more sympathy for Le Pen. Le Pen wanted the Arabs! He ofcourse was known for his anti-semetic remarks, but none the less he wanted the arabs. In his point of view he saw them as people who create high unemployment, make crimes; especially the organized ones, sell drugs, rape, and make major citiies like bordeux, marseille, lyon and espececially paris, more frightning. People had sympthaty for that, i wasn't a fan, but if i had lived in France and under the brutality of my neighbours, than i would have voted for him. "

As i told you i live in an Arab neighboorhood (by the way I'm not Arab but of russian-jewish origin) and there are some problems with them yet not the hell you think it is. People voted for Le Pen for all kinds of reason, but your sympathy for this man is very dangerous, he is a fascist and he said that the genocide against the Jews was just a detail, for this words he was convicted, he lost one year of his civil rights. By the way he only got 17 percent of the votes.

"But a good scenario here is this....Your french, you got citizen, im not sure if your arab, or chritian, or just a supporter..you never told me! But on any case, what if the 5 million muslims, declare there own sort of independence. What if they want a piece of France in the south-eastern area, just a little land, probably the side of Israel and they would commit crimes and atrocities until they get it? of course, the french a pro-arab and they see it as maybe an opprotunity, but again it take there right away? how would u feel about it? and lets say that Muslim countries support this new state with muslims living in there? Just wanted to know "

Arabs in France have never claimed an own state because they are new immigrants here, they never lived in France before the 50's, whereas in israel they were the big majority of the population before the etnic cleansing of 1948, one of the largest etnic cleansing in world history.

"Now....About Indonesia.....you have a sort of 'get wrong' idea for what happened in and around 1997-1999... Indonesia, was making a sort of military coupe in the island of East Timor. They needed there independence, but it not fair to go deep on this issue. but what is, is that Indonesia, like as you loved to say Israel, tried for no apparent reason to colonialize it. the fact that Israel, was threatned by war and then won the superiority of that war and later occupied land in in the end would exchange it for peace, was something the arabs would never understand. But back to Indonesia, topic. I followed it pretty well, after my visit there in 1998, i saw the big picture. There was atrocities committed and yet, no one is claiming responsibility and is putten under the table. then you go to mid 1998, where the UN starts looking at it, and you see muslim countries vetoing against a vote to "PROTECT" the citizens of East Timor, not until Australia comes in and then does its own protection. E. Timors best friend ofcourse is Australia."


about Eastern Timor the UN cared and condamned indonesia numerous times, what could they do more? The US would veto any real action against Indonesia, as dictator Suhartu was the friend of the US and put in power by them to replace the communist-minded Sukarno (in that coup more than 3 millions of communist peasants were killed).

" The thing with Israel, that many hate to understand is that Israel WILL, yes WILL give back the land on a peace settlement!! "

i'm not so sure about that, your hero netanyahu said israel will never allow a Palestinian state, and also what was proposed in camp David was not a full withdrawel.

"Yet, in other places where you have occupation, im sorry to say you do, than you don't have peace agreements or any agreement for a withdrawl. You ever see China trying to withdrawl from Macau??? you ever see Syria withdrawling and stoping to bitch Lebanon? you ever see that???NO! but in the palestinian/israeli issue there is, and israel is willing to give back land and make more only on the terms if we ger 3-7% of the land and there will be a cooperation on the jerusalem issue, and the Right of Return for refugees will not be determined by Israel but Arab states and perhaps European/Asian and the rest world. I think that with around 4 million people, you can give them refugee in a great part! "

all the examples you give are not comparable. Macao people are chinese who wellcomed the Chinese, Syrians were invited by the libanese president to protect the country from israel and the palestinians fighting their war in Libanon, and they are not an occupation force. The refugees should have the right to return to the land of their families according to the Geneva-conventions and the Un-resolutions, but not all of them, because than Israel would be a Palestinian state. So a compromise has to be made on this.

"The people who detter the peace process away from the center stage are the same people who commit terror. Yes, there was a slip from terror in the 'good days' of the peace process, but after Sept. 2000, Arafat decided to not put a hold on them and took off with killing his own people and israelis!! Why, cause he thought an uprising would be better than peaceful solution. But arafat won't the other way. "

the peacefull solution was not getting the Palestinians anywhere, israel did not withdraw any settlement but build new ones, and was not prepared to talk about a total withdrawel and a free palestinian state (with own border and airspace controll, which is essential) israel was also after years of peace not prepared to talk about the refugees. I hope next time israel will see that it has no choice but to make real peace and negociation, not a peace that will only serve israel.


"When you see Hamas and you support there suicidal bombings as a legitimate thing for the end of occupation than i call that propsturous. THe more suicide bombing you will have the more left supports you will lose, the more international sympathy you would fail and the more wait you will get for a Palestinian state. Look at the history...stop thinking that the last 2 years of bloodshed means the past 10 years for Oslo. It isn't!!!!!!! The Palestinians never had an autonomy and never had there own rule in a certain place, and yet when they have it, they start making bomb factories and other insitutes that promote anti-peace. And when you foreigner see, you see it as a legitimate way to the fustration of the palestinian people. It is not!!! It is a way to make the peace process more simplistic and its not working. The terror will stop when they will want a palestinian state. Right now, these people do not care about life, don't care about there own people, would want to see death and hegemony being committed and they don't care, why? cause they have support by ignorant people and unfortunetly people like you. "

the suicide-bombers don't have my support, you are right that killing innocent people will not solve anything. Yet the intifadeh against the occupation force has my support, because after years of peace Palestinians are still occupied by israel and israel made abuse of the calm to build more settlements and continue the colonisation-process, israel also didn't make any real proposals that would be acceptable for the world and the palestinians. and the first intifadeh has showed that israel will only consider the rights of the palestinians if they are forced to do so.


"About the peace process, well......Yes, at the begining of Camp David it wasn't the best offer. But it outlined something very important, a palestinian state and the legitimacy of a free democratic state along side another democratic state in harmony and freedom. What did arafat do? he was 'insulted' and left....he never made any more agreements, he declared that he would persuse indepence in every means around september and he is the realy Victor here (Showing the ignorant V sign with his fingers) that he truly beat the US and Israel in there own game. He knew that people would uprise, but he never knew when? Even when the infifhada statred, Ehud Barak made it possible and told Arafat to clamp down on the rioting. He didn't do it.."

in the meanwhile Barak ordered his troops to shoot at children trowing stones and destroying PA-buildings, a disasterous move which provoked the palestinians to start some more serious actions. Arafat was not insulted but judged that this proposal was not according to the palestinians rights, howeverhe was still open for new negociations, and more serious negociations began in jan. 2001 untill that son of a **** came to power who made an end to all negociations and contacts and started his disasterous "military solution".


"Netenyahu, was commited to the peace process and yes, he made settelements, but he was committed to dismantling many of them and to building peace with the Palestinians. He made it possible when he signed the Hebron Agreement and later forth the wye river agreement. "

LOL, netanyahu was ALWAYS against any concession of the Palestinians, even the left-wing in Israel accused him of undermining the peace-process, he did some minor concession under us-pressure, but nothing like he should have done according to oslo.

"...if you didn't have the Islamic Autrocratic Regime that is spilling the blood of your people! Its tryant, its ruthless...its islam "

[takeo]

If israel would have considered negociation over the camp david-proposal we would not have any war now, and by the way the PA isn't Islamic, many members of the current government aren't even religious.

The refugee problem is complex but than again, look at the ways that it started. The arabs rejected the recognition of an arab state and wanted war. they lost and with that had refugees....they let them live as lower citizens and they didn't give them anything. They only made them more angried and more anti-israel. If they had made them and would let them live in there kingdoms or there regimes i think that would'nt have harmed them, but to let them ALL 4 Milion live in Israel, is Insane!!!! If i was to throw 4 million in America it would be insane!! you don't know Socio-economics and Israel is not going to be binded into an agreements that redecules them and makes a county with around 21,000KM jamm packed with nearly 11 million people not to mention another 4 million in the WB/GAZA! This is insane and it won't work. "

Well, israel could take in one millions of Russians, who have no link with israel whatsoever, so why couldn't it take in palestinians who, according to international law, have the right to return to their home-land where they or their families were born?

I agree for millions of palestinians would mean israel would no longer have a Jewish majority, and by the way not all 4 millions want to return, some would rather prefere to live in the West or other Arab countries, but Israel should at least have the decensy to take back at least 30% or something like that of the people it etnically cleansed, it would be a solution for one of the biggest problems for the Middle East and for israel as well.
poor Arab countries as Jordan and Libanon did great efforts to take in the palestinians, and caused a lot of problems to those countries, yet those refugees came from israel, not from libanon or Jordan, why should they stay in a country that isn't theirs and where they didn't come voluntarily?
the un always resisted against etnic cleansing, in israel as well as in Yougoslavia.

"Now let me ask you this. What if the arabs would have won the war? what do you think the Jews would have done? do you think that you'll make us refugee's?? Sure! Do you think that you will kill us? Probably, but you wouldn't have been better than what is going on right now. And yes, you would never have us live in Israel again. Even more, let me just add that if there was no Israel than probably the people who would fight over 'palestine' would be Jordan who got the most of it from King Adbulla 1st who came from Saudi Arabia....and probably the other countires would be egypt and syria fighting for it. No one would be intrested in it. "

i'm not so sure about that, probably if they won the 1973 war, the us, the soviet-union and Europe would have intervened to save israel on the condition that it agreed to all un-resolutions.
Nasser has declared that he would not send the Jews born in israel back to Europe or whereever they came from, but that they would not have their own state, so most likely many Israeli would have fled, but there probably wouldn't be a massive etnic cleansing as happened after israel won the war.

"But back to my point...If Jews were the losers in the arab-israeli wars, than i would highly doubt that you would ever let us live. The wars that happened in 1948 and even until 1982...was for the annhilation of Israel! Do you think Jordan/Syria and the gang would attack Israel? for what? to liberize the arabs? No! To try and make us unlegitimate. "

actually Syria, Jordan etc. have all said they want friendly relations with israel on the condition that the Palestinian rights will be observed.



"And what if i talked to you about the expulsions, pogroms and liguidations that occured in the arab world from 1920-1950 directly against the jews??? Like me, i am on of them. my family came to Israel in the 1920's after fledding Syria. There was pogroms and life was bad. Yes, the refugees found home and today, i rightly deserve compesation from Syria, but i dont want there Islamic satatnic money. I don't care about it! I care about the country that i know reside in.......... "

Jews like your family lived in Syria, Egypt, etc. for many years and only when zionism occured the situation between Arabs and jews deteriorated. Many Jews continued to live in Egypt untill the 1967 aggression and some jews still live in Arab countries like morocco or Tunisia, they refuse to immigrate to Israel.
Jews didn't fled arab countries primarily because they were oppressed but because they believed in zionism and wanted to live in a jewish country. Also European jews after WWII didn't leave Europe because of oppression (my family never feld oppressed in Russia) but because they wanted to live in a different country (maybe because it was richer, or jewish, or sunnier or a combination of all that)

[Pushtak18]

Right, i am aware of French politics, but you understand that Chirac gave way to this Le Pen. you think I like him. I don't, even if he apoligized which he did (read haaretzdaily, he had an interview with them) he still did a mistake. But he has an agenda, and even if its not the best, and i don't support it, other people will. Maybe not now but in 30 years from now. It will be a scary world in France if you let it happen. Chirac let this happen, cause he not better than Le Pen, he does the same thing Le Pen is doing. And if Le Pen wasn't running than Chirac would know that he would lose the support. He instead never had an alternative and told the people that they should protest against Le pen and hold French Reputation in good condition, but let me tell you something, French reputation, even without the election was ruined! It doesn't matter if Le Pen has 1% or 40% of the vote. He did have votes, because of the situation that went there and not because of the issues that is growing externally.....

First of all, about your ethnic cleansing..no it wasn't an ethnic cleansing, if this one of your lies, like the thing you had about You being Russian-jew! If there was ethnic cleansing it would have been no palestinians. Because of there aggression they lost. Why is it that when an aggressor loses, they always start to look like the innocent one. And as always, they missed an opprotunity...they rejected land and they decided to start war...what more is hard to understand here?

Yes; the UN did veto it, but it was too late. There was atrocities already committed and they never had a resolution made out till 1998, which was late. There had already been clashes for maybe 9 months before and the issue was never brought up to the table since it really got bad in 1992 and 1993. The US never vetoes anything, states like Malaysia, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Morroco all vetoes anything and helped the Indonesian do a little more damadge. Australia stepped it and brought it to the attention of the world. Yes, unlike you and your rhetoric you refuse to see what the crimes were. As you know unlike Israeli, British and French soldiers, the rest of the soldiers in those areas are poor soldiers and they do personal crimes. Did anyone look at that?

Still, what netenyahu said that If Israel was to give up land and create a palestinian state, than we must be cautious, afterall, whats the point if you have a palestinian and it makes ties with countries and has uliminted armed forces and still has groups like Hamas not only having institutions and still uncommitted to peace but also having a spot in the parliment? What kinda peace is that. Tell me where anyone said that there won't be a full withdrawl. Israel is still committed to it and i think the palestinians should be as well.

First of all, your being extremely biased here. you think that just because China occupies Macau they are chinese. Look at Honk Kong, they were given back to the Chinese, and ofcourse many left, but not many wanted it. Did they complain..no! Why? Cause they know there people there who would punish them. Im sorry to hurt you here, but Syria doesn't have an diplomatic relations with Lebanon. Lebanon never had an embassy and there after an israeli withdrawl, they still have forcess there. So if you can give me a pretty damn good reason why there still there, i like to hear it, because they have absolutely no right to. And you know that there today in Lebanon anti-syrian groups who object the 'syrian occupation'?? Did you know that or are u just being biased and ignoring it. Don't tell me that there here to defend Lebanese and Lebanon. No one wanted them there and they just got the whole civil war mixed up and tangled. They entered lebanon and yes, they did war crimes (Circa; Damour village..massacre of 1980 by PLO and Syrian forces...35,000 people). And on top of that they entered in 1975/1976, almost 6 years before israel entered and entered for a very good reason. As a result, syria was scared of going head-to-head with Israel in this, thats why before hand when israel made the buffer zone in 1978, they made alliance with the PLO and after the Iranian Revolution had a pact at around 1982 to create a gurilla force so they can do the 'mess' for them that is now called Hizbullah...not very hard to understand.

Maybe you need to talk to a lebanese freedom activist to get the real story here!

Im sorry to say, but Israel talked peace and made sense, not in the Camp David but along the way, they did. Arafat put the leavage on it, and made it more pressurable. It was a do or die sense and because of him we are in this mess. Israel is willing to talk about a palestinian state with all the recommendations that you said and i think it will happen, but it should happen without terror. Israel was willing to accept the principales and even negotiator of the PLO Saeb Erkat said it was close, but he even admitted that they were late.
So again, it was another opprotunity that the palestinians missed! I can't blame myself or israel that the palestinians are refusing to do anything to restore calm!

To support suicide bombing or the Intifhada is just a meaningless thing that has no point what-so-ever. The 1st intifhada never had anything and same with the 2nd one. The only reason that the 1st intifhada was stoped or better yet halted was that Yasser Arafat support saddam! He lost his credibility in the west and many turned there backs to the wall in the arab world. How come you never condemned nor pay attention to the brutality many palestinians whom you so much support were treated to 3 days of mayhem where they were thrown in jails for allegedly having ties with the Iraqis?!?!?!? You seem to be one sided and ignore the rest! Palestinians did get killed and dragged on the street in the days after liberation! And again your little master puppet arafat did the talking and the ones being tortured were palestinians!!! How dare you!!!

First of all, Barak never once ordered to shoot children. But on the other hand, when you look at the aftermath of camp david look at what the Palestinians were getting into? Back in August you saw headlines of newsweek with picutres of palestinians getting 'prepared' to liberate palestine. And you saw how they were taught. This wasn't a sort of 'it just happened'....they were prepared for such a deal like this. Like the PA information minister said....."The inifhada took some time, even before Camp David we were ready for this" so now who is the son of a bitch. And no, the negotiation happened even in Early October 2000. These were the talks that arafat refused and than in Taba still refused. And yes he was the one who suspended it. And ofcourse when there was TABA there was a car bombing in Jerusalem...so you see, everytime we even try to have a breakthrough you seem to have your 'intifhada weapons' being used!!!!
STOP THE NON-SENSE! STOP THE AGONY AND STOP THE MERCY!
THE ONLY TYRANT ISLAMIC BITCH HERE IS MR. ARAFAT. STOP SUPPORTING HIM, MAKE HIM FEEL LIKE ITS 1990 WITH IRAQ AND HE WILL BE LEFT ALONE AND WE'LL FINALLY LISTEN TO HIS PEOPLE! NOW WE ARE NEEDING REFORM!!!

Stop naming netenyahu as a bad person, he made the peace with the palestinains twice. Im sorry that you don't like him but he did his part...And there was no delay...he was only removed cause there was a voting!!!!!
And it was internal problems and not foreign!

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
Also European jews after WWII didn't leave Europe because of oppression (my family never feld oppressed in Russia) but because they wanted to live in a different country (maybe because it was richer, or jewish, or sunnier or a combination of all that)

You can't claim this. Even though I'm not that old, I know very well that Soviet Jews were persecuted in Russia and I recall that there were considerable efforts in the 1970s and 1980s in the West to assist them in their plight. What a slap in the face to all the people who put in considerable efforts to help Soviet Jews and to all the people who actually suffered in the Soviet Union. Just for starters, practicing and learning Judaism was extremely difficult and could lead to loss of employment and/or imprisonment.

Of course, not only Jews were persecuted in the Soviet Union, but political dissidents of various religious persuasions and ethnicities (and their relatives and friends).

[Pushtak18]

Stop saying that "IF ISRAEL HAD ANY CONCESSIONS THERE WOULDN"T BE WAR" that is a bear-faced lie and you know it. Camp David was meant to end the Palestinian-Israeli issue. Maybe no one was ready, but the main point is that the Israelis had something on the table, Arafat never made his offer. He just felt insulted and took off. You understand that Israelis and especailly ehud Barak wanted the peace. Arafat never insisted on a Camp David. Like i said...Clinton Invented the idea, Barak Initiated the Idea, and Arafat accepted the Idea of the Camp David 2000 talks!! If for all i care, the Talks could have been NOW than 2000, and Ehud would be prime minster. It is the Politicians who wanted the infifhada and not the People. The people were growing and even under occupation life was good. They had jobs and the economy was growing, slwoly but growing. So what went wrong there? are u still accusing israel of being the bad guy because they initiated the peace at camp david...that is obscurd comment to say.

Well, Mr Takeo...about the refugees....
The russians did have something and they were jews. And unlike the Palestinians who are intrested in just making mayhem and anarchy in Israel. Sure, you can say that the Russians don't have anything to do with israel, but than again what do the palestinians have? the 'home land?" well..im not russian, im Syrian Jew..and my homeland is in Syria and yet, i can't travel, and im barred from my homeland. Like the many jews who you so much deny, that left the Arab/Middle eastern world from the 1900's to the 1970's....... They never got compesated and were ignored the rights.....so what do you tell a jew who has no rights in a place like YEMEN (which till today had a rule to expel jews that was made in there bill at around 1923)??? You wouldn't sayanythiing? There was a jewish refugee problem from the Middle east countries, yet instead of putting them in refugee camps and depriving them, they got home and there independence in Israel. And as you said.....since the palestinians are arabs, what the point if they go to a Deomocratic jewish state??? So they can topple it??? Why not send them to there own brothers and sisters in the Arab world?? Why is that? or are u just trying to make the war seem more bitter? All you want to do is creat an East and West palestine! And bring more anarchy. Right of Return is not in the Geneva conventions and you know that if today we would suck up to R.O.R and have peace, there will be trouble in 20-50 years from now. I am not going to let this happen. So don't threaten the jewish state with whats on the Geneva convetions because you arabs have ripped the Convention many times in the past 50 years...not just for our wars, but for your own people.

First of all, Don't try to make the call and say that Jordan and Lebanon are sooo poor and generous people. The palestians are the ones who started the 15 year civil war in Lebanon. They ignited it. On the Jordanian side, the Jordanians in just 3 weeks massacred 20,000 Palestinians!! Now are they generous and sensere!!! Look here.... i know you missing alot of points and some your reufse to know, but the fact is, you cannot have a peace process that would allow a civil war to take place! YOU WANT A CIVIL WAR IN ISRAEL! And i know that if we make peace with the arab world than they would stab us in the back! That is why i am not going to accept something like that, which is ridiculous. If the world wants to play a good part, than i think that 4 million refugees can go to all parts of the world and gain citizenships. They can live in luxenborg, and england and spain and argentina and USA and Canada and all sorts of places. Remember, PA mocked Canada last year for being the first to step out and trying to resolve the refugee issue, by letting them in their country...the PA called it FRUITLESS!!! How dare they!!!

you are truly a denier!!! You are speechless when i tell you that the arabs weren't budging on the war. And evenso, you seem to little or no agree with me that the same sort of punishment and even worser would happen to the Israelis like it is happened to the Palestinains! That seems to show how and why Israel won the war and would still need to defend itself. You brought up the war and you lost it. And yet you never signed peace for it. You realize that the WB would have became part of Jordan? so now where is the Peace process with palestinians?

But listen, im not talking about waht the Syrians wants to have relations with Israel......Im talking about how they acted in 1940's...They were the ones who ruined the relations and freedome for the palestinians....the palestininas weren't the ones fighting. it was the Jordanians and Syrians...and they made them lose! they were the arrogant one, they were the aggressors and they lost. How can you say they want to have relations only if Palestinians rights are observed when they march with there tanks and Phantom-5's and try to destroy israel. that is insane!!!


Still, whatever it was it was an expulsion!!! People just don't say they want to move cause its sunnier. Russians were torchered in Russia and Syrian jews did not have any rights. We left for fear and we wanted a better life. There is nothing about zionism or any nationalistic movement.. infact if Zionism is so bad for you than so is Arab/Islamic Nationalism? And do you know why? because Arab Nationalism focuses on Pure Islamic Countries and Pan Arabism country where there would be an Empire of the whole 25 Arab countries in 1. So whats the difference? Jews wanted a homeland where they can live without pogroms and hatred, just because you don't live in that country doesn't mean you have to mock it. I am proud to live in Israel. I know that there was many troubles for jews, even before the turn of the century and we had enough!!! Israel was our hope! Israel was our TIKVA! So leave Israel alone and give us our own state and homeland!!!

[takeo]

let me shortly make some remarks about your first post:

How do you know that Chirac has ruined France?
You don't seem to know nothing about France, because the real power was not in the possetion of Chirac but of a left-wing coalition, and by the way the last 4 years the French have never had such a high life-standard. There are some problems with Arabs in some neighbourhood, but if you go to France you will see it's not really so bad.
Of course according to you (and others on this forum) the credibility of France is lost because it criticised israel. well i can assure you we don't give a **** about the credibility of france in some countries which have been condamned during many decades by the whole world for their policy.

listen you don't seem to understand the meaning of "etnic cleansing", it doesn't mean genocide but expulsion or refusal to allow back refugees into their homes. Whoever started the war, it doesn't matter, you can not take revenge on millions of refugees, that's against the geneva-conventions. And so israel has certainly committed etnic cleansing.

you also don't seem to understand how the un works, the us has veto power, countries like Morocco, etc. don't have veto-power. The US supported the suhartu-regime, that's a well-known secret and only in the 90's the US started to pull back its support.



netanyahu said there wouldn't even be a palestinians state, let alone a full withdrawel. i think hamas should have the right to be represented in parliament if they would accept to use non-violent means to achieve its goals once a palestinian state is created. there should be amnesty for crimes on both sides, or justice for both sides.

you also don't seem to know much about macao or hong Kong, these were colonies of Brittain and portugal conquered (or granted) from china, and returned to china in a treaty. People in Hong Kong and macao are 98% etnic chinese.
abut libanon the libanese falangist prime minister (or president) invited the syrian troops in Libanon to fight the palestinians (and later also israel), that's history my friend. as long as libanon doesn't ask for their withdrawel, they are legal in Syria. Some people don't like their presence, but the elected parliament of Libanon has not asked for the withdrawel of syrian troops, whereas possibly 100% of the palestinians and their legal representatives ask the withdrawel of israeli troops, who were never invited in the WB or Gaza! by the way israel was never invited in Libanon neither;



The first intifadeh was not stopped after the gulf-war, it only stopped officially in 1993 when israel for the first time in its history showed willingness to talk with the palestinian leaders. yes some palestinians were mistreated by kouweit after the war, so what? did i ever say that all Arab countries are good?

"First of all, Barak never once ordered to shoot children"
so who ordered the shooting of 100's of, sometimes very young, demonstrators?



" And no, the negotiation happened even in Early October 2000. These were the talks that arafat refused and than in Taba still refused. And yes he was the one who suspended it. And ofcourse when there was TABA there was a car bombing in Jerusalem...so you see, everytime we even try to have a breakthrough you seem to have your 'intifhada weapons' being used!!!! "

do you deny that since Sharon came to power israel refused to negociate with the palestinians, and stopped the negociations started by barak before the election of Sharon?
you should make a difference between the pa and fatah and hamas. Hamas tried to stop the peace-process, while it was only since israel started to stop the peace-process too and destroying pa-infrastructure that fatah got actively involved in violence against israel.


"STOP THE NON-SENSE! STOP THE AGONY AND STOP THE MERCY!
THE ONLY TYRANT ISLAMIC BITCH HERE IS MR. ARAFAT. STOP SUPPORTING HIM, MAKE HIM FEEL LIKE ITS 1990 WITH IRAQ AND HE WILL BE LEFT ALONE AND WE'LL FINALLY LISTEN TO HIS PEOPLE! NOW WE ARE NEEDING REFORM!!! "

arafat is the representative of the palestinians, if you kill him there will be more violence and reprisals against israel, not less.
"stop naming arafat is a bad person :D " he was the one palestinian to make peace with israel, and he can do it again if israel wishes so.

"Stop naming netenyahu as a bad person, he made the peace with the palestinains twice. Im sorry that you don't like him but he did his part...And there was no delay...he was only removed cause there was a voting!!!!!
And it was internal problems and not foreign!"

i heard he was accused of corruption...
anyway he really delayed the oslo-agreements (a final solution should have been established in 1999), and violated them (more new settlements)

[takeo]

"You can't claim this. Even though I'm not that old, I know very well that Soviet Jews were persecuted in Russia and I recall that there were considerable efforts in the 1970s and 1980s in the West to assist them in their plight. What a slap in the face to all the people who put in considerable efforts to help Soviet Jews and to all the people who actually suffered in the Soviet Union. Just for starters, practicing and learning Judaism was extremely difficult and could lead to loss of employment and/or imprisonment. "

there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.

You have GOT to be kidding! Where are you getting this information? I can vouch that it's baloney, from personal experience.

My father wanted to go to a military school. He was told, on no uncertain terms, that "no Yid will ever make it into this school". My father was a straight-A student, who subsequently entered the Telephony and Communications Institute (through bribes) and now has 50+ published works and a number of patented inventions to his credit. This was 1965.

My sister tried to get into the special music school. We had to pay a bribe for her to get accepted, because -as they told us -"they already had too many Jews". My sister, incidentally, is now a violinist for the Finnish National Opera - so talent wasn't an issue. This was 1977

I had a friend who got kicked out of that special music school for the "crime" of going to the synagogue on a Jewish holiday. This was 1978.

Is that enough? Or should I give you more samples from my "medium" life?

[takeo]

"Maybe no one was ready, but the main point is that the Israelis had something on the table, Arafat never made his offer. "

Arafat was ready to negociate about Camp david, israel made it clear it was a "take it or leave it"-proposal

"If for all i care, the Talks could have been NOW than 2000, and Ehud would be prime minster. It is the Politicians who wanted the infifhada and not the People. The people were growing and even under occupation life was good. They had jobs and the economy was growing, slwoly but growing. So what went wrong there? are u still accusing israel of being the bad guy because they initiated the peace at camp david...that is obscurd comment to say"

Israel could start new talks any moment, and start negociations were they left since Sharon came to power, right now in june 2002, Arafat said he would certainly accept, guess who refuses to talk?
the intifadeh started because the Palestinian economy was NOT growing because the palestinian cities were totally caled off from each other and from other Arab states, and oslo had been abused by israel to build more settlements while there was peace, the intifadeh started also because israel was not ready to talk about some crucial issues.

"Well, Mr Takeo...about the refugees....
The russians did have something and they were jews."

So what, they were no Jews with any family member (even distant) born in israel!

"And unlike the Palestinians who are intrested in just making mayhem and anarchy in Israel. Sure, you can say that the Russians don't have anything to do with israel, but than again what do the palestinians have? the 'home land?" well..im not russian, im Syrian Jew..and my homeland is in Syria and yet, i can't travel, and im barred from my homeland. Like the many jews who you so much deny, that left the Arab/Middle eastern world from the 1900's to the 1970's....... They never got compesated and were ignored the rights.....so what do you tell a jew who has no rights in a place like YEMEN (which till today had a rule to expel jews that was made in there bill at around 1923)??? You wouldn't sayanythiing? There was a jewish refugee problem from the Middle east countries, yet instead of putting them in refugee camps and depriving them, they got home and there independence in Israel."


That's right, and palestinians and arab countries also agreed to compensate Arab jews or let them return on the condition that the same could happen with the palestinians. But many Jews didn't go to israel because they were forced to leave (in some cases yes), they went to israel because they believed in zionism.
Some jews still lived in Egypt untill the 60's and many still live in Morocco.
You have every right to establish in Syria or get compensation as the palestinian refugees have to establish in israel or get compensation.




"And as you said.....since the palestinians are arabs, what the point if they go to a Deomocratic jewish state??? So they can topple it??? Why not send them to there own brothers and sisters in the Arab world?? Why is that? or are u just trying to make the war seem more bitter? All you want to do is creat an East and West palestine! And bring more anarchy. Right of Return is not in the Geneva conventions and you know that if today we would suck up to R.O.R and have peace, there will be trouble in 20-50 years from now. I am not going to let this happen. So don't threaten the jewish state with whats on the Geneva convetions because you arabs have ripped the Convention many times in the past 50 years...not just for our wars, but for your own people. "

Palestinians should have the right to return to their own houses or lands, it won't make israel a palestinian country (still a minority) but it would make israel a multi-cultural country. as well as you should have the right to immigrate to Sria, palestinians born in israel and their families should have the right to go to israel. Believing in mono-etnic states is fascism, it is the dream of le pen.
In the next i will give you some parts of the geneva-convention that exactly show that israel is violating the convention and that the right of return is a basic human right.
it is not to stir anarchy but exactly to solve the anarchy and problems, the palestinians already living in israel are the ones NOT attacking or bombing israel.

"YOU WANT A CIVIL WAR IN ISRAEL! And i know that if we make peace with the arab world than they would stab us in the back! That is why i am not going to accept something like that, which is ridiculous. If the world wants to play a good part, than i think that 4 million refugees can go to all parts of the world and gain citizenships. They can live in luxenborg, and england and spain and argentina and USA and Canada and all sorts of places. Remember, PA mocked Canada last year for being the first to step out and trying to resolve the refugee issue, by letting them in their country...the PA called it FRUITLESS!!! How dare they!!! "

How dare israel to take everything from this people, their houses, lands, etc. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JEWISH BUT PALESTINIAN.
There won't be a civil war in israel, palestinians in libanon and jordan created problems because they were foreigners, they had nothing in those already poor and foreign countries. Millions of refugees create problems, always in every part of the world. For them israel isn't a foreign country but the land where they have their roots. Any peace-deal dealing with the refugee-question can make garantees for israel that their demographic considerations would be considered and that the palestinians can be accomodated in an ordered way, not over one day as they arrived in libanon or jordan.

"you are truly a denier!!! You are speechless when i tell you that the arabs weren't budging on the war. You brought up the war and you lost it. And yet you never signed peace for it. "

1967 was a war started by israel. syria never signed for peace with israel because israel is still occupying parts of Syria, or do you consider this to be legitimate self-defense?
By the way I only made war with my sister untill now ;)


"But listen, im not talking about waht the Syrians wants to have relations with Israel......Im talking about how they acted in 1940's...They were the ones who ruined the relations and freedome for the palestinians....the palestininas weren't the ones fighting. it was the Jordanians and Syrians...and they made them lose! they were the arrogant one, they were the aggressors and they lost. How can you say they want to have relations only if Palestinians rights are observed when they march with there tanks and Phantom-5's and try to destroy israel. that is insane!!! "

That was more than 50 years ago!!!
a lot of things have changed in 50 years. jordan already made peace with israel and syria will do so if israel would give them back the occupied parts of syria.
fact is that israel was the one, after many decades, who mostly cleansed the palestinian population, and who occupies parts of other countries, not vice versa!


"Still, whatever it was it was an expulsion!!! People just don't say they want to move cause its sunnier. Russians were torchered in Russia and Syrian jews did not have any rights. We left for fear and we wanted a better life. There is nothing about zionism or any nationalistic movement.. infact if Zionism is so bad for you than so is Arab/Islamic Nationalism? And do you know why? because Arab Nationalism focuses on Pure Islamic Countries and Pan Arabism country where there would be an Empire of the whole 25 Arab countries in 1. So whats the difference? Jews wanted a homeland where they can live without pogroms and hatred, just because you don't live in that country doesn't mean you have to mock it. I am proud to live in Israel. I know that there was many troubles for jews, even before the turn of the century and we had enough!!! Israel was our hope! Israel was our TIKVA! So leave Israel alone and give us our own state and homeland!!!"

yes i think Arab/islamic nationalism is as bad as zionism, in fact both are equal and fascist in origin.
jews didn't face pogroms in Russia in the 50's, and neither in most Arab states. They left because they wanted to live in a Jewish country. This is not a crime, to have your own country, but it is a crime when it has to happen at the expense of millions of palestinians who were the original inhabitants of palestine (still in 1947 they were the majority of the population).
As long as the palestinians have no equal rights as the israeli, israel doesn't deserve to live in peace and prosperity. Once that happened, I will resist against any violence and would even consider moving to that nice country. (not because i'm persecuted in France, but because i like israel, believe it or not, the only thing i really hate is how they treat the palestinians and the nationalistic arrogance/pride)
If israel would have treated the palestinians fairly after their defeat in 1948, and would have allowed the un-plan, than i'm almost sure Arabs would have learned to accept israel.

[takeo]

Article 13 uf the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) states that:

"(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country"
and the Fourth Geneva Conventions (1949) prohibits:
"individual or mass forcible transfers ... regardless of their motive";
and calls for evacuated persons to be:
"transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased."

Moreover, UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 (1974) mentions:

"the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return";
and UN General Assembly Resolution 52/62 (1997):
"reaffirms that the Palestine Arab refugees are entitled to their property and to the income derived therefrom, in conformity with the principles of justice and equity."

The UN General Assembly Resolution 194 (1948) of 12 December 1948 resolved that:

"refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for the loss or damage to property..."
This resolution has been reaffirmed one hundred and ten times by the UN.

the Fourth Geneva Conventions (1949) prohibits:
"individual or mass forcible transfers ... regardless of their motive";
and calls for evacuated persons to be:
"transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased."

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
"You can't claim this. Even though I'm not that old, I know very well that Soviet Jews were persecuted in Russia and I recall that there were considerable efforts in the 1970s and 1980s in the West to assist them in their plight. What a slap in the face to all the people who put in considerable efforts to help Soviet Jews and to all the people who actually suffered in the Soviet Union. Just for starters, practicing and learning Judaism was extremely difficult and could lead to loss of employment and/or imprisonment. "

there was no persecution because someone was belonging to the jewish race or had jewish roots, that's what i mean.
And there were functioning synagogues, people could also practice Judaism without being persecuted (at least since the 60's), there were official rabbi's. some things were not allowed, such as religious education in schools and there was harsh state-controll over the religious system. But that can hardly be a reason to immigrate or feel persecuted.
Judaism and Islam in the Soviet-union had the same status.
Are you really sure that you know what you are writing about??? Where did you get the information from, some Communist Party of the Soviet Union leaflet from 1980???

[Pushtak18]

Frankly, i don't give a rats ass about France. France lost its reputation. You seem to be so protective from France, and yet what do you get out of it? your just defending a country that can't decide on its fate. It relies more on reputation rather on sences...... Its not just Israel, France has done things that should have been condemend...why is it that when Algerian gunment (I am not dared to say terrorist, cause the French will be angry) go in 1999 and gun down 4 or 6 French people in Bordeux or somewhere south of France and no one got condemend? Why is that? you afraid to bring something like that up?

Ethnic cleansins is to wipe out a race or human beings. Its not about to explu them or commit genocide..its to eliminate them. Did Israel Eliminate the Palestinians?? Did we massacre them in the thousands like Jordan did? Did we go and deprive them? Infact, we gave them what they wanted, they wanted autonomy, israel gave the autonomy to them and in the process will be giving them a state if they co-operate. you know whats holding them from a state...Ignorant people like you who cannot define what ethnic Cleansins is. If Israel did commit ethnic cleaning than there would be no more palestinians. But instead they doubled. They doubled from 600,000 to 4 million. That is not ethnic cleaning, that is growth. Learn it!

Yes; the us did have veto power in the UN, but this Veto issue isn't related to Indonesia at all. America was against it, and yes it voted against it and supported Australia. Australia was the one who vetoed it. Morroco went for Indoneisa. The Regime you are talking about was in the 1950's and 1960's, U.S pulled back way before the timor crisis began!

You are getting netenyahu's words mixed. He said clearly that a palestinian state would be created. He has no problem with it. What he does have a problem is that in the last few years instead of fighting the terrorism and showing a sign of restraint and independency, they alloweed terror to evolve. They alloweed all of GAZA which is mostly all for the PA to be a hot bed for HAMAS. As for Hamas, if you belive that it can be in the Parliment than you are repeating what has gone in Lebanon. Today Lebanon wants change. you go in the streets of Beirut and they ask for change. For democracy for freedome and for wealth, yet there bing occupied by Syria and the whole souther lebanon is no mans land..why, cause the Anti-Syrian protestors don't have any support and this is due to having the seats that Hizbullah has not to mention the Syrian back parts in Lebanon.... So i guess you want to repeat Lebanon for the Palestinan...once again....how dare you!

Well im sorry that politics have to have an invitation, but the fact is that in 1982, the PLO decided to bombared North Israel with missiles. We responded and we invaded. We invaded them pretty well and got the PLO expelled from Lebanon. Our object was easy. Get the PLO out, find there hideouts and make peace with Lebanon. Remember, make peace! Did Syria and Lebanon have peace? no!! They don't...you can call that peace but its not. The PLO expulsion was sufficient and they moved to Tunis, but the prime minster of lebanon got assistanted in 83 and Chritians were fledding to the South.
Syria wasn't invited by the Lebanese prime minister. That is wrong facts. It was invited by the Arab Leauge, when they had an arab summit in Spring of '75, and one of the key issues was about Lebanon. If you were there in '75, you would just see how much rhetoric they talked about Chritians and Druze and the small minority that you would spill some guts. Syria came but had no agenda. And how dare you also have the urgency to deprive Lebanese citizens into whos occupying them. Why is it that if Israel occupies the Palestinians for a legitimate reason it is bad, but if there would be agreements that it would be solved while Syria would probably never make anything for sometime!! That is disgusting. And while your just sitting there, you are making the lebanese people more anxious and hurt.....There freedom is taken away, but you justify such an act......



No! The Infifhada stopped in 1994! And i don't really call it a stop. Arafat was the one who declared the stop of it. But again, many people would say that there were scattered riots and uprising as well in 1996. And don't forget the mini-intifhada that Arafat commited in 1998 on the al-aksa mosque. And you know how it was stopped? Many other arab countries urged arafat to show restraints and stop the bloodshed. he did!

Arafat was the one refusing. I think that the first 3-30 days of the Uprising, Arafat didn't do nothing. He encouraged it. If it wasn't for Arafat then Ehud would still be in power. By Late November Barak resigned and paved the way for an election. Arafat hated it, but never wanted to stop the Infifhada. You cry why the terror infrastructure was hurt by Israelis, but Arafat hurt it more! Everything was on Arafats court, he never took a change and never did anything. He just waited and wanted the worlds reaction. He is the kinda leader that waits for International reaction before remembering that 1000's of his people are eighter dead, destroyed, paralyzed, injured and devastated due to his formatic regime! And yes, you support that. So hats off to you and all your frenchie french supports on that!

As i said before, Its not on Israels court...Arafat had chances. Israel, no matter who is in power, if it is the right or left wing, Israel will make peace. Right wing made peace and started the tradition and left wing did the same. Israel is committed to peace, but if you hurt our civilians and damadge our security than im sorry, i cannot live peace like this. This not called peace but an excuse for no excuse....... Don't justify attacks as a form of desperation. Attacks will lead to more occupation!


About netanyahu, like i said before to you. He left office in 1999. He didn't have time to make peace. Ehud was the one who wanted to. He was so willing. and even if you mark him wrong he was up with arms. He withdrawled from Lebanon and did it without hesitation. He wanted to secure peace for the Israelis and even after the withdrawl there are still threats as well as the October 2000 kidnapping of 3 israeli soldiers and 1 Business man (which violates geneva convention).
Ehud wanted peace. But he could have had it whenever. Ehud initiated it..... He could have done it now or in 2003...it was all up to him. Not up to anyone else...possibly the new US adminstration. But on any key note, Netanhayu made 2 important deals. He showed that if you put security for israelis, and a cesation of terror than in the end your getting more autonomy and finally a stabalize independent state...Whats so complicated about that method?

[takeo]

"Are you really sure that you know what you are writing about??? Where did you get the information from, some Communist Party of the Soviet Union leaflet from 1980???"

From what i have read and heard, i have visited synagogues in Charkov and Sverdlovsk in the end of the 80's by the way.
if you can proove the contrary i will believe you...

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
"Are you really sure that you know what you are writing about??? Where did you get the information from, some Communist Party of the Soviet Union leaflet from 1980???"

From what i have read and heard, i have visited synagogues in Charkov and Sverdlovsk in the end of the 80's by the way.
if you can proove the contrary i will believe you...
My dear takeo, "official rabbis" usually also held a KGB rank (unofficially, of course). If you wanted to know what was going on, you'd have had to talk to the people "off the record", not that simple for an alien Westerner. How old were you in the late 80ies, btw.?

[Pushtak18]

Arafat wasn't ready to negotiate. He was ready to sit them, but empty handed. He never had his own agenda and never made the counter offer. The Camp-David talks which could have taken around 2-3 weeks, only lasted 5-7 days because arafat left it. Arafat was the one who rejected and suspended it. He put the peace process on hold, went back, declared a victory (somehow) and then pressured last minute into a peace process. But not even clamping down on the violence that gripped the country for the 3 months before Jan 2001.

Israel was the one who wanted the peace talks. Arafat was invited. Israel could start the peace talks anytime, yes, but as any other country in our state of mind would never talk while there citys are getting bombarded by terror attacks from right to left. Ambushes taking place contantly and murders! Israel is not willing to talk like this. If Saeb Erakat (negotiator) loves to go on pressure than fine with him, but Israel will not. Israel want the cessation of fire, violence, hostility terror and clamping on the groups before starting it. Right now it is hard. The only major points we have to do now is to watch PA reforming and the MID-EAST Summit....

Peace had chances, Arafat never took even one of them!

What you said with the russian jews you can say with the Palestinians. Most palestinians who living in refugees are distance. Some mixed into the place some did not. But how can they claim if. If the Russian jews cannot claim it than or can the Palestinians. You just made the rule up yourself...smart thinking, huh?

I don't really know what kinda world your living on or what lies you have but as a Syrian jew, i am not alloweed to come back to Syria, nor am i alloweed to visit it. I will not get compensated for it even though the pogroms that my grandparents faced, the hatred and the forcefull removal of the property. Syria cannot establish a committee and give compensation. If they were smart instead of compensating the jews, they should compensate the Palestinians in hopes of findng a solution to the conflict. And im sorry you feel so bad about zionism but Zionism is a jewish movement, like Arab Nationalism, which wanted control of Arab own lands and right of self-rule from other colonialists states (spain, france, italy, UK).... Zionism was form as a solution to anti-semitism. If there was a place that jews we're mistreated than the decision was to make a country where jews can rule and without being subjected to ethnic cleansins, genocide, tryanty rule and harsh pogroms. Israel was our answer. And for the love sake, can't you give the jews one land. Only 20,000 km to live on to say to ourselves that his is our land, this our freedome, our happiness our joy our future????? Why is it like that? why should we force to do what you want? only so in the end you will create a civil war?

Israel has a right to govern and control whatever they want. We don't have to sufficate our lives just for the Geneva Conventions. We cannot accept the Right of Return on any circumstances. We have our own freedome and liberty and our own rights..And why should we destablizes the country? you want a crowded polluted israel, where crime is high, deseases are high and poverty is high! Israel wants a stable country. We do not want you imaginary multi-cultural country. We are already one. We jews came from all around the world for one main thing which was to find freedom. I am not a Syrian and i don't call myself one. My grandparents fled from Syria and i am not willing to go back to it or get compensated. I have secured my life and i feel that living in israel is what i want. I would rather give the filthy compensation money to the palestinians so they can live in Syria. Israel is my Israel and don't tell me that im being compesated because its not! I don't want anything to do with the Arab states world and im glad im not there. Israel is my country and since i am a voter i make the rules and since i feel that the palestinians are intrested in created a polluted, over crowed, anarchy state than i am willing to refuse them in! Let them go into Saudi Arabia? you can make 40 Israel's in Saudi Arabia.......and if theres 250 million arabs would it kill if each of the 25 countires takes in around 160,000 Palestinians??? Than the conflict would be gone?

You keep on forgetting the rights of our lives. The palestinians weren't the aggressors they were victims of Arab Nationalism and the Aggressors. Palestin could have been a state, the UN wanted that. But the Arab world decided to eliminate a state. Israel defend, the palestinians fled. If the arabs would have recognized Israel, than i think Palestinians and Israelis would live side-by-side in Harmony. And how dare you keep on barging me that Israel kicked palestinians due because there not jews. When Israel is on the Palestinians lands than we are not welcomed eighter...You want a win win, situation but yet you reufse to deal the cards.

1967 war was fully started by the Arab neighbours. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon all engaged against Israel. IN 1967 we had no occupied you guys, in 1967 we had not one inch of land, in 1967 you could have made a palestinian state. In 1967 you could have freedom. But you attacked us, and in a moments seconds we took down, win superiority and occupy lands in exchange for a full peace, and regognition.

Syria did not sign a peace agreement with Israel, because it doesn't want to. Even if we never occupied the Golan, than Syria will still keep on barging us until they would infiltrate Israel. Until Syria stops there mayhem and Baath Party Anarchy, we would go to normal and sign a fair peace deal and retun the golan to them. If not than for the time being it will be a buffer zone and show of stupidity and aggression the syrians did in June 4, 1967!

Well than if 50 years ago the Arabs made a huge and gravely mistake and you don't recognize there mistake as a major one, than how come Israel is the one to still be blamed with. Israel made all concessions to make peace with Syria. Syria still tried to gain from it and until today they do. If Syria never learned from its mistakes and aggression, Israel shouldn't have to eighter.

Israel did treat the Palestinians good. Both lived under fair life. Jews didn't just come in the 1940's to Palestine. Jews were there since the 1800's...Infact, if you look at the Ottman's empire Census, you will see that between 1880 and 1920 there were at the most 20,000 people living in Jerusalem, and out of them there were half jews and half Arabs. On eighter note, There was little or not that densed arab population in most of Israel, the most arab lifed near the Jordan valley which made alot of sense, since Israel at the time was filled with Mahlaria and didn't have any close water system...Many lived in what is now the west bank and some lived in Israel. Israel was willing to accept the divided palestine in 1948 which would mean, half of what is now Israel would be divided in 2, one would be for the jewish people, the other would be for Palestinians.....Israel accepted it in principal....and lets hear what the palestinians did?????? :)

No other comments, your honour?

[takeo]

I was very young, ok, but not an alien westerner, i'm not a russian because i have lived all my life here, but my parents speak excellent Russian and know everything about life in the Soviet-union. They were not religious at all, but my grandmother is, she never experienced a problem whatsoever. So you can't say there was persecution of people who were not politically motivated, and certainly not because they were Jewish. (maybe unofficially some people had bias against Jews, but that's everywhere, even in the US)

I don't like people insulting France, our country has a better repuation in the world than the us or Israel, i don't know any country thinking bad about France except israel. israeli travellers have a bad reputation because they are stingy and rude in general, Americans have a bad reputation because of their government-policy, at least in Southeastasia, latin america, Europe(eatsern and western) and the middle East.
of course not all french are nice people and some israeli and americans are the best people possible, but we were talking about reputations.

the algerians you talked about are convicted

you still don't know what etnic cleansing means, search it on the net!
it means depriving people of the right to return on base of their etnicity, or evict them from a territory or country for the same reasons.

about indonesia, australia doesn't have veto-right either and you are talking about the sukarno regime, which was communist, while suharto since the 70's , the one who invaded east-timor, was supported by the us. they only changed sides end 90's.

"You are getting netenyahu's words mixed. He said clearly that a palestinian state would be created. He has no problem with it. "

really?
so why did he support and promote the resolution in likud declaring there will never be a palestinian state, this was even too extremist for sharon, can you imagine!!!

"As for Hamas, if you belive that it can be in the Parliment than you are repeating what has gone in Lebanon. Today Lebanon wants change. you go in the streets of Beirut and they ask for change. For democracy for freedome and for wealth, yet there bing occupied by Syria and the whole souther lebanon is no mans land..why, cause the Anti-Syrian protestors don't have any support and this is due to having the seats that Hizbullah has not to mention the Syrian back parts in Lebanon.... So i guess you want to repeat Lebanon for the Palestinan...once again....how dare you! "

in a real democracy people can vote for any party, including hesbollah. By the way israel never signed a peace-treaty with libanon, but still violence dropped very much since israel withdraw.
anti-syrian protestors have little support, even among christians.

"Well im sorry that politics have to have an invitation, but the fact is that in 1982, the PLO decided to bombared North Israel with missiles. We responded and we invaded. We invaded them pretty well and got the PLO expelled from Lebanon. Our object was easy. Get the PLO out, find there hideouts and make peace with Lebanon. Remember, make peace! "

LOL, those ignorant libanese didn't see that israel was making peace by killing 1000's of civilians, destroying much of libanon, and interfearing in libanese politics. Maybe that's why isael's peace-policy wasn't very much appreciated by libanese (very strong understatement).

the syrians were invited by the falangist (Christian) libanese government , not by the Arab league.
How dare you, as a citizen of a country which occupied libanon for years, telling the libanese who is occupying and who is not!
the syrians are not shooting at people, building settlements and destroying buildings as idf did.

[cerulean]

Takeo did not provide an exact answer as to his age, but according to this post, he was born in 1976.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=1242#post1242

[takeo]

If it wasn't for Arafat then Ehud would still be in power. "


If Ehud had been a little more flexible and allowed new far-reaching negociations to stop the intifadeh instead of shooting children, he would probably still in power.


"As i said before, Its not on Israels court...Arafat had chances. Israel, no matter who is in power, if it is the right or left wing, Israel will make peace. Right wing made peace and started the tradition and left wing did the same. Israel is committed to peace, but if you hurt our civilians and damadge our security than im sorry, i cannot live peace like this. This not called peace but an excuse for no excuse....... Don't justify attacks as a form of desperation. Attacks will lead to more occupation! "

i don't know, i think attacks on civilians will target all israeli, but attacks on the idf in the occupied territories will probably encourage those refusenics and the necessity of a real solution for the palestinians. as i said the first intifadeh let to the first peace-talks and oslo, the second may lead to final peace-proposals.


"About netanyahu, like i said before to you. He left office in 1999. He didn't have time to make peace. "

in 1999 the oslo should have been completed.

"Ehud was the one who wanted to. He was so willing. and even if you mark him wrong he was up with arms. He withdrawled from Lebanon and did it without hesitation."

that was a smart move.

" He wanted to secure peace for the Israelis and even after the withdrawl there are still threats as well as the October 2000 kidnapping of 3 israeli soldiers and 1 Business man (which violates geneva convention). "

it was a good things negociations were resuming, i'm sure if he stayed in power, the intifadeh would have stopped in favor of general peace-negociations.

"Ehud wanted peace. But he could have had it whenever. Ehud initiated it..... He could have done it now or in 2003...it was all up to him. Not up to anyone else...possibly the new US adminstration. But on any key note, Netanhayu made 2 important deals. He showed that if you put security for israelis, and a cesation of terror than in the end your getting more autonomy and finally a stabalize independent state...Whats so complicated about that method?"

that there were written obligations of both parties, netanyahu didn't commit himself to the israeli obligations, he showed the palestinians that peace or no peace, israel would never totally stop its occupation and even consider talking about refugees or a totally independant palestinian state. What he gave was very little. netanyahu was always against a palestinian state and if you build new settlements, you are not planning to leave within one year, are you?

[takeo]

"Israel was the one who wanted the peace talks. Arafat was invited. Israel could start the peace talks anytime, yes, but as any other country in our state of mind would never talk while there citys are getting bombarded by terror attacks from right to left. Ambushes taking place contantly and murders! Israel is not willing to talk like this. If Saeb Erakat (negotiator) loves to go on pressure than fine with him, but Israel will not. Israel want the cessation of fire, violence, hostility terror and clamping on the groups before starting it. Right now it is hard. The only major points we have to do now is to watch PA reforming and the MID-EAST Summit.... "

What about the Palestinians? They can say too they don't negociate under foreign occupation!
In fact you have to negociate to make an end to the violence, not vice versa. The US negociated with milosevic while the bombing of belgrade was still going on!!!



"What you said with the russian jews you can say with the Palestinians. Most palestinians who living in refugees are distance. Some mixed into the place some did not. But how can they claim if. If the Russian jews cannot claim it than or can the Palestinians. You just made the rule up yourself...smart thinking, huh? "

The Russian jews in israel should have the possibility to return to Russia if they wish so, and they can!!!


"I don't really know what kinda world your living on or what lies you have but as a Syrian jew, i am not alloweed to come back to Syria, nor am i alloweed to visit it. I will not get compensated for it even though the pogroms that my grandparents faced, the hatred and the forcefull removal of the property. Syria cannot establish a committee and give compensation."


That's wrong, and i'm sure once the palestinians get their compensation and right of return, your family will be included too and be offered the possibility to return to syria or receive compensation.

"And im sorry you feel so bad about zionism but Zionism is a jewish movement, like Arab Nationalism, which wanted control of Arab own lands and right of self-rule from other colonialists states (spain, france, italy, UK).... "

that's ok, but arab nationalism was also directed towards other people such as the kurds who lived on the lands they claimed, and zionism was directed against the palestinians who lived on the lands they claimed.

"Zionism was form as a solution to anti-semitism. If there was a place that jews we're mistreated than the decision was to make a country where jews can rule and without being subjected to ethnic cleansins, genocide, tryanty rule and harsh pogroms. Israel was our answer. And for the love sake, can't you give the jews one land. Only 20,000 km to live on to say to ourselves that his is our land, this our freedome, our happiness our joy our future????? Why is it like that? why should we force to do what you want? only so in the end you will create a civil war? "

israel can have all this, BUT ithe people who lived there should not be the victim of this, that's the only condition!!!
some one and a half million of refugees will not create a civil war in israel (nor do the palestinians already in israel), but israel will have to open up more to the Arab world and vice versa.

"Israel has a right to govern and control whatever they want. We don't have to sufficate our lives just for the Geneva Conventions. We cannot accept the Right of Return on any circumstances. We have our own freedome and liberty and our own rights."

ok, if this is more important to you than the rights of the palestinians, and not willing to seek a compromise, than you deserve war. That's one of the main reasons why the second intifadeh started.

"And why should we destablizes the country? you want a crowded polluted israel, where crime is high, deseases are high and poverty is high! Israel wants a stable country. We do not want you imaginary multi-cultural country. We are already one. "

yes but a multicultural country without Palestinians! your remarks are very racist, Palestinians won't bring deseases, crime, poverty, etc. if they will be treated like the Russian jews and get opportunities in israel. But if you prefere war instead of a multicultural society, be my guest...

"We jews came from all around the world for one main thing which was to find freedom. I am not a Syrian and i don't call myself one. My grandparents fled from Syria and i am not willing to go back to it or get compensated. I have secured my life and i feel that living in israel is what i want. I would rather give the filthy compensation money to the palestinians so they can live in Syria."

maybe that's what you want but many palestinians don't want to live in Syria, they want to go back to their own houses and lands. they should have the free choice as you should have that choice too.

[takeo]

"Israel is my Israel and don't tell me that im being compesated because its not! I don't want anything to do with the Arab states world and im glad im not there. Israel is my country and since i am a voter i make the rules and since i feel that the palestinians are intrested in created a polluted, over crowed, anarchy state than i am willing to refuse them in! Let them go into Saudi Arabia? you can make 40 Israel's in Saudi Arabia.......and if theres 250 million arabs would it kill if each of the 25 countires takes in around 160,000 Palestinians??? Than the conflict would be gone? "

that's not the point, those people have the right to go back to their own property and country, it's not because there are too many blacks in the US that the us can send them home ("enough place in Africa") that's not how it works in the modern Western world, that kind of ideas was defeated in WWII.



"You keep on forgetting the rights of our lives. The palestinians weren't the aggressors they were victims of Arab Nationalism and the Aggressors. Palestin could have been a state, the UN wanted that. But the Arab world decided to eliminate a state. Israel defend, the palestinians fled. If the arabs would have recognized Israel, than i think Palestinians and Israelis would live side-by-side in Harmony. And how dare you keep on barging me that Israel kicked palestinians due because there not jews. When Israel is on the Palestinians lands than we are not welcomed eighter...You want a win win, situation but yet you reufse to deal the cards. "

actually all of palestine was palestinian untill the 19th century. Israel already got the biggest part of it, but on this part still millions of pals lived, and were evicted after 1948, if israel wants to be a modern civilised country it should deal with this injustice, if not israel will never be accepted by the world-community and able to live in peace. Arabs recognised israel since some years, so that means Palestinians and israeli can live side by side, if israel accepts a just peace. If not, it will have to face war and destruction.

"1967 war was fully started by the Arab neighbours. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon all engaged against Israel. IN 1967 we had no occupied you guys, in 1967 we had not one inch of land, in 1967 you could have made a palestinian state. In 1967 you could have freedom. But you attacked us, and in a moments seconds we took down, win superiority and occupy lands in exchange for a full peace, and regognition. "

we have had that discussion a million times, read the search engine of this forum, ISRAEL ATTACKED EGYPT in 1967, before anyone attacked israel, not vice-versa. it was a war of conquer.

"Syria did not sign a peace agreement with Israel, because it doesn't want to. Even if we never occupied the Golan, than Syria will still keep on barging us until they would infiltrate Israel. Until Syria stops there mayhem and Baath Party Anarchy, we would go to normal and sign a fair peace deal and retun the golan to them. If not than for the time being it will be a buffer zone and show of stupidity and aggression the syrians did in June 4, 1967! "

LOL
Syria has said it wants to recognise israel on the condition israel withdraws from the occupied territories. But if you prefere to wait for peace untill the regime changes, that you can have some more decades of bloodshet.
ISRAEL started the 1967 war.

"Well than if 50 years ago the Arabs made a huge and gravely mistake and you don't recognize there mistake as a major one, than how come Israel is the one to still be blamed with. Israel made all concessions to make peace with Syria. Syria still tried to gain from it and until today they do. If Syria never learned from its mistakes and aggression, Israel shouldn't have to eighter. "

it was a major mistake, but it was a mistake for israel to take abuse of its military victory to deprive the palestinians of everything, instead of granting them what the allies gave to germany after WWII, a strong, peacefull and prosperous country. it was of course an even bigger mistake to occupy parts of libanon and syria later on.

"Israel did treat the Palestinians good. Both lived under fair life. Jews didn't just come in the 1940's to Palestine. Jews were there since the 1800's...Infact, if you look at the Ottman's empire Census, you will see that between 1880 and 1920 there were at the most 20,000 people living in Jerusalem, and out of them there were half jews and half Arabs. On eighter note, There was little or not that densed arab population in most of Israel, the most arab lifed near the Jordan valley which made alot of sense, since Israel at the time was filled with Mahlaria and didn't have any close water system..."

fair rule of occupation and destruction???




"Many lived in what is now the west bank and some lived in Israel. Israel was willing to accept the divided palestine in 1948 which would mean, half of what is now Israel would be divided in 2, one would be for the jewish people, the other would be for Palestinians.....Israel accepted it in principal....and lets hear what the palestinians did?????? "

yes, but israel could have accepted it after the war too, as i said in another tread, this would be a chance for peace, if the Arab countries wouldn't accept it, well, israel would be the moral victor and would not have been condamned as today.
if they accepted, there would have come an end to the palestinian problem.

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
I was very young, ok, but not an alien westerner, i'm not a russian because i have lived all my life here, but my parents speak excellent Russian and know everything about life in the Soviet-union. They were not religious at all, but my grandmother is, she never experienced a problem whatsoever. So you can't say there was persecution of people who were not politically motivated, and certainly not because they were Jewish. (maybe unofficially some people had bias against Jews, but that's everywhere, even in the US)
Oh, I can well imagine the scene: Russian-Jewish emigrants from France on sentimental trip "back home", bursting in and asking tactless questions no one really wanted to hear let alone reply to. Your parents must have certainly sent anyone who wasn't there for the KGB screaming down the hill - hardly noticing it, of course, if they were so sure that they "know everything about life in the Soviet-union" - the most alien of all alien Westerners one can think of, of the arrogant variety and for practical purposes the ones whose contacts to the local population would arouse the strongest interest of the "authorities". A former Soviet citizen myself, I'd have taken greatest care myself to keep as much distance as possible.

And it wasn't just about the Jews either. I've known people in Moscow who lost their jobs in the very same 80ies for the crime of baptizing their children Russian Orthodox.

You live in a world of dreams. Wake up.

(Btw., it's off-topic, but in case you are interested I can provide you with the reasons why some German, Italian and Swiss employers don't like hiring Frenchmen. With due respect for your patriotism, please don't over-estimate the reputation of your countrymen.)

[takeo]

Estimated Population of Palestine in 1870-1946
Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total

1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
1912 525,000 (93%) 40,000 (6%) 565,000
1920 542,000 (90%) 61,000 (10%) 603,000
1925 598,000 (83%) 120,000 (17%) 719,000
1930 763,000 (82%) 165,000 (18%) 928,000
1935 886,000 (71%) 355,000 (29%) 1,241,000
1940 1,014,000 (69%) 463,000 (31%) 1,478,000
1946 1,237,000 (65%) 608,000 (35%) 1,845,000
Figures are rounded.
Sources: The numbers in this table are estimates constructed from the following: Yehoshua Ben-Arieh, "The Population of the Large Towns in Palestine During the First Eighty Years of the Nineteenth Century, According to Western Sources" in Moshe Ma'oz, ed. Studies on Palestine during the Ottoman Period, Magnus, 1975; Alexander Scholch, "The Demographic Development of Palestine 1850-1882", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XII, 4, November 1985, pp. 485-505; "Palestine", Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edn, 1911; "Palestine", Encyclopedia of Islam, 1964; UN Document A/AC 14/32, 11 November 1947, p.304; Justin McCarthy, "The Population of Ottoman Syria and Iraq, 1878-1914", Asian and African Studies, XV, 1 March 1981; Kemal Karpat, "Ottoman Population Records and the Census of 1881/82-1893", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XCI, 2, 1978; Bill Farell, "Review of Joan Peters", 'From Time Immemorial', Journal of Palestine Studies, 53, Fall 1984, pp. 126-34; Walid Khalidi, From Heaven to Conquest: Readings in Zionism and the Palestine Problem until 1948, Institute for Palestine Studies, 1971 appendix I; Janet L. Abu Lughod, "The Demographic Transformation of Palestine", in Ibrahim Abu Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine: Essays on the Origin and Development of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Northwestern University Press, 1971 pp. 139-63.

"Elias Sarkis was elected president in 1976. In October, Arab summits in Riyadh and Cairo set forth a plan to end the war. The resulting Arab Deterrent Force (ADF), composed largely of Syrian troops, moved in at the Lebanese government's invitation to separate the combatants, and most fighting ended soon thereafter. "
http://www.markovich.de/coh/html/mun_lebanon.htm#history

[Mediocrates]

And why did Lebanon expel 360,000 Palestinians on Dec 18, 2000, people who had no civil rights and were starving to death under the dominion of their Arab brethren? Wait let me guess...it's the Israelis' fault.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
"Are you really sure that you know what you are writing about??? Where did you get the information from, some Communist Party of the Soviet Union leaflet from 1980???"

From what i have read and heard, i have visited synagogues in Charkov and Sverdlovsk in the end of the 80's by the way.
if you can proove the contrary i will believe you...

I don't think that it's possible for anyone to "prove" to you anything contrary to your current opinion. You are getting information from the "horse's mouth", so to speak - Vic and I both are in much better position to know what was really going on in USSR than you - or even your parents - would be, coming in from the outside for a visit.

I don't care what your books said. I KNOW what it was like, I KNOW that we did not leave everything we knew and cared about, just for a nice tan. You have NO IDEA what immigration is like! You don't know ANYTHING about what it took to first, live there, and then to immigrate, start a new life from scratch, work dinky jobs to survive, get used to the new language, culture, modes of life, transportation, etc. etc. etc. NOBODY in their right mind would choose to immigrate, if the stakes weren't so high. And I can assure you that MY family, as the families of most Russian emigres I know, ARE in their right mind.

[NewsGuy]

Those statistics were taken mostly from the Arab propaganda sources which are listed last, like Walid Khalidi, Janet L. Abu Lughod, and Ibrahim Abu Lughod, etc.

On the other hand, the statistics I find tell a completely different story:

"The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.

This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 1922-1947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem. "



Sources: Governmet of Palestine, Report and General Abstracts of the Census of 1922 taken on 23rd of October, 1922, compiled by J.B. Barron, Jerusalem, 1922.
Government of Palestine, Office of Statistics, Village Statistics, April 1945. Jerusalem, 1945.
Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, List of Settlements, their Population and Codes, 31, XII, 1967, Technical Publications Series 28, Jerusalem 1968.
Israel Defense Forces, Census of Population conducted by the Central Bureau of Statistics, 1: West Bank of the Jordan, Gaza Strip and Northern Sinai, Golan Heights, Jerusalem 1967.
Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, List of Localities, their Populations and Codes, 31, XII, 1995. Technical Publications Series 68, Jerusalem 1996..
Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, Small Area Population: Revised Estimates for 1996, Ramallah, April 1996.

[Pushtak18]

Ethinic-cleanisn does not mean depriving people. It means cleansing people due to there ethnic and or origing. Maybe you do have a point, but it doesn't make sense all of a sudden in todays politics especially in Israel.!

The US always changed there mind way before Indonesia attacked E. Timor, and im not talking about Us-Indonesia relations im talking about an Islamic world that put a veto on any help before australia and other western powers did sometime to prevent atrocities.

I can also go on and say to you the nice little deeds your french did in Syria, Lebanon and Vietnam, but that would be too darn explicit? Or Iran too...!! I can boil you up, pretty bad!

Netanyahu wasn't the one who promoted, im not even sure if he voted. He made a clear statement in the partys convention last month that if Palestinians want to persuse a state than they have some rules to follow before they can even begin indepnedency. One is the assurance that unlike now, they won't backstab Israel, make stingy alliance with bad states (N. Korea, Iraq, Iran...) and become Diplomatic in all nature.....

Real Democracy isn't Hezbollah. This party has no legitimacy of Dimplomacy. It sets Lebanon back in the clock 20 years. They refuse to get change and promote violence. Even though they have promised reconciliation with the chritians there is still blood thirsty anger for them. I don't call that politics. I call that a Gurilla Terrorist coupe.
Secondly, stop lying! Israel never signed any peace treaty with Lebanon in the 2000 Withdrawl from Lebanon. We withdrawled because our 18 year mission died down. Ehud's main goal was to get Israeli soldiers out of Lebanon and he did it. We never signed and agreed upon anything. UN acknowledged the withdrawl, but Syria and Hezbollah did not, they still think they own the Sheeba farms, which is part of Syria and till today they commit terror against us. When Kofi annan levels Israel and Hezbollah the same then there is biasism going around.
And laslty, the Chritians are the anti-syrian organizers. They are the one's who protest and they have some non-chritians who help too. They demand freedom and democracy. Everyone is ignoring them, why cause ignorant people like you tend to see what media gives them. Your nothing!

Israel didn't come into the picture of lebanon since 1982. By then Lebanon was already damadged by Syrian and Palestinain forces. To accuse Israel of killing many innocents is obscurd. IN the years of 1976-1981, Syria had committed more atrocities than probably there whole independent life as a country. Yet; i don't see one person complaining or brining it up. They already did damadge and although today it is calm and quiet, Syria still has no reason have a built up force in Lebanon!

The Chritians did not invite the Syrians, Syrian's came after the summit in 76. The Falaginist Chritians never really welcomed them and from the start they were a foe. Since the Arab Leauge wanted a quick ceasation of fire, they asked for Syria's help. Eventhough Syria is not shooting and looting like they did 18 years ago. They do have a presence that many people in Lebanon do not welcome. They want freedome and then you come up to me and you start to complain to me that i am the wrong one telling people who is an occupier and who is not.
Your pure biased.
You point the finger at one thing but ignore another matter. Shame on you! how dare you!

Listen, they don't got a home in modern day Israel. Palestinians whom lived in Israel before 1948 and left as refugees left because of the war. Not my war that i started but the war that there Arab brothers and sisters started. Its not i who is responsibile to compensate them it is the Jordanians and others who decided to screw there life over and make them refugees on top of that give them no social security in there autrocratic kingdom and make them look like the lowest point on the earth on top of that massacring them cause of one man (arafat)! So why don't i hear any paychecks moving along? why is there no compesation for that? The thing that is different in America is the blacks never started a war. They acted like human beings and never called there brothers and sisters 5000 km from Congo or Banin to help them fight the Americans. They stayed and they live as normal citizens.

The Arabs still try to persuse what they didn't have in 1948! Its insane!


Once again, you seem to get the whole notion wrong. Israel wants to live in Peace, but you understand that you peace and justice means our destrcution. There is no benefit that it will give by having Palestinians come in to Israel. Why are u so eager and ignorant to start 2 Palestininas states??? Do you want that? do you like the fact of a civil war? I don't care what the world thinks. Israel has the right for its Citizens and we don't have to do what other people tells us just so we can be forgivien and let in the world-commmunity. the world community is a place filled with biased and islamists who persuade genocide and tyrant and get the green light for it. Arabs never recognized Israel and even with peace they still won't! The Relations with have with both Jordan and Egypt are cold and stubborn and its really not worth it to sacrifice it once again!

You are mixing up 1967 with 1956. Israel attacked Egypt in 1956 because they repussioned and 'ambushed' israel from the North of Sinain. In response israel attacked Egypt and along with UK, France defeated Egypt from holding that thing that lets boats through (i forgot its name).
So there you go, don't mix years up!
Israel was attacked in 1967, and defeated. Just because the so called 'guys who supposed to have won that war easily' lost like corn dogs doesn't give you the write to switch history and lie about it. Your a pure coward..... not a man indeed, a naked man who fears for the historic past! Whimp!

Syria was the one who putted the 1990 peace process with syria-israel on Hold. They were the ones who thought that it wasn't going well and they were the ones who saw that it was not the best time.
Right now, damascus wants to Palestinan issue firsr and i recognize that fact! Israel will sit with the Syrians but they Syrians must do it fast!!! its not our ball in the court?

Israel made no mistakes. We have a right to fight and to defend ourselfs from enemies who wanted us gone. If we deprived anyone we would have made occupation of all Syria and Jordan so that they will be shattered and shamed to bits and bites. The palestinians have now a right to have there land and freedom but terrorism and it doesn't matter who, slow it and paralyze the dream!


"Fair occupation and destruction?"
Of who????? The Palestininas if you so much recognize were occupied by the British, did they uprise, did they declare a country, did they want deomcracy? They were occupied by the Ottaman empire who did the same as birtish, they they do anything?

[Pushtak18]

While you complain, israel is willing to end the occupation and sat at a nice rounded table to discuss it, what did we get back? Denys, lies and rhetoric!

Israel always agreed to a fair and divided countires, till today. Israel made a cease-fire and like the issues that we face now, it was broken by ruthless dictators. The wars from 1948-1967 were not about "your occupying me" it was more about "i want you dead and annihlated". After the 1973, even if they surpised and aggressed a war that was bitterly, they still never achived what they had!!!!!! Even if Israel did accept the withdrawl in '48, the Arabs would still reject it. Its not about missing an opprotunity for the opprotunity. Its being blinded by hate and femine!

The Palestinians dictate there own fate. If they stop, it will be calm and back to normal. There not the type of people who like normal, instead they like bloodshed and anarchy!


So about the Russian issue, you mean France can kick you out and you can live in the average slums of Minsk or Moscow?? And what if they don't accept you?
No one wants to live in the shed of places which they had already lived. Its about choice not force. People found life in Israel and are willing to live there from now and forever!

Listen and listen carefully...Your not understanding something very hard and bitterly...The Syrians will never compensate me and i don't want them too! I want my country and i make choice for my country. If i tell you that i am not willing to except new immigrants that will bring crime, high birth rate, poverty and aids to my country than you will listen for me. I pay taxes, i lived here all my life and i tend to live here with my kids too! You don't make my life up. you live in French and you dictate your own personal life, stop citizising other countires and make them feel bad, cause our country is not capable of having R.O.R, your not giving us our socio-economic cylcle of life! Instead you are proclaiming that jews should no longer be alloweed to rule!! Thats very rude. And also...Syria will not do anything more with Israel after a breakthrough is made. Syria is a poor country, in the last arab summit like always, Syria asked for a little cash from U.A.E and Bahrain!!!! Where were u the last time around buster?

Arab nationalism never gave kurds any opprotunity. Infact, after the whole Israeli-Arab issue is over. the Kurds will finally speak. They would want there land and unfortunetly the land which they want to have there country would be some of Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey....now tell me how you deal with that.
More so, Arab Nationalism goal was discriminating and excluded the Chritian, Druze and other small minorities.

On the other hand Zionism deals with having a jewish homeland, not depriving and being against the Palestinians. The Palestinians in 1948, never claimed there roots as palestinians and yet after the 1967 war they started speaking up about it. Zionisim policy is peace and tolerance, if it was a perfect world then the Palestinians would live free under Israel, but instead they decided war and not only 1 but 5 seperate wars which ended up figuring out there fate. Can you blame someone who wants death and destruction and his part of lifehood? Can you?

We don't have to open anything. The 1 million Arab-Israelis are already creating much of a hassle. They don't have a goal. the most successful arab-israelis are the ones that own stores, the rest don't want to try or can't and they have a big family. Even though the Arab Israeli relation have been not the best there has been a difference between 1970s and today, excluding the last 2 years. I think that if there was peace they would have international jobs and good pay because of there arab-tonuge in the arab world.....thats what i belive... unless you want to put more people through agony and pain by poverty you do so, but not here, do it in Nazi-France, please!!!!

And now lets here my condition! you can eighter forget about the WB and Gaza and get no independence whatsover, or you can make peace with Israel, drop the Right of Return, get soverignty over your part of E.Jerusalem and have all (100%) of Gaza and almost all (93-97%) of West bank??? And to the Refugee issue, since there is a Palestinian state, why don't they go to that state and make new lives??? You know that out of the 2.5 million residents that live in West Bank, most of them live in the East and the West is not that filled up....put them there!! And also North and some of south is not also!!! Plus the settelements can become new (nice) housing for rich and famou (palestinians)? so what do you say? my way or the highway?

My comment was not racist, the Palestinains don't want any legitimacy in Israel, they want to destroy israel to the very tip until they get what they want. The russians came for a new life in Israel and they did. Like you went to France for a new, but rather cocky life, the Russian's chose Israel. They listened to the rules and helped israel. The Palestinians who want to come to Israel have no ligitmacy. They want to make Israel a jungle in the middle east. You threaten me that if i don't make peace, there will be terror and war, but if i do agree to your armegeddon ideas im only trying to make a civil war for my kids. Your sick, your totally sick!
Israel is a multi-cultural country, and we have Palestinians, so stop telling the world we don't!
We also have Bah'ai faith and we recognize it, I love the lebanese, Syrians and Iranians as well as the French (who discriminated them in the 50's) to recognize them.

Listen, you talk about palestinians wanting to go back to their houses??? There no houses there they probably built a stadium for Hapoel Kfar Saba so don't tell me they want to live inside a soccer feild!


Ehud made all concessions, he want far, he want really really far. Its the attitude of the Palestinians. Don't tell me how to make peace or what not. Israel came with something on the table. Are u risking your time here to tell if you don't like an agreement (whichever it might be..House, car, mortgage, peace..etc) than you are willing to uprise and kill people to get your means necessary?
If Arafat was to think smart than in August 2000 he could have resumed the peace negotiations and made peace, maybe put it at hold, and even if he did, in 2001, Barak will still be in power. He was suppose to be til' Oct. 2003! So we had alot of time, but what did arafat do? We all know!

The 1st infifhada did not let to the First peace talks. Oslo wasn't created due to the Infitifhada. Was it one of the points, probably. but not an important one. The main key point was that Arafat was the one who was willing to make peace. He was out of options due to his stupidity in 1991 with Iraq, so when he made peace with Israel, declared an end to the infifhada, he than created a reputation as a noble president for the palestinians. The inifhada was a door to nowhere!

well, in 1999 Ehud came and wanted peace. Arafat didn't!

That wasn't a smart move to withdrawl from Lebanon and it just goes to show you the true intentions of the Arabs afrer peace that they will still be in venom and hatred towards Israel which is not what peace is all about!

The Intifhada would have still went on no matter who is in office. Its not who is in Israeli office that the Palestinians want. Its who stops the Palestinians that is the key focus to ending intifhada and violence. We had Ehud and you started the uprising, and along with Shamir (right) and Rabin (left) and also Perez (left) you still did it!!

You can blame netenyahu as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is that Ehud made the opprotunity. You can go back in the last 30 years and blame every Israeli prime minster. But Ehud gave the chance, and he was ripped off!!!!!!!

TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT!!

[takeo]

"I don't care what your books said. I KNOW what it was like, I KNOW that we did not leave everything we knew and cared about, just for a nice tan. You have NO IDEA what immigration is like! You don't know ANYTHING about what it took to first, live there, and then to immigrate, start a new life from scratch, work dinky jobs to survive, get used to the new language, culture, modes of life, transportation, etc. etc. etc. NOBODY in their right mind would choose to immigrate, if the stakes weren't so high. And I can assure you that MY family, as the families of most Russian emigres I know, ARE in their right mind."

OK, i believe you, but can you tell me exactly why your family moved from Russia, why did they feel persecuted?
My family and millions of other Soviet Jews didn't feel persecuted, and many still live in Russia or other CIS-states.
ps: my parents had real trouble too adapting to a new culture, yet they were not forced to immigrate, it was a decision based on practical considerations (job, money, etc.).

[takeo]

newsguy, i don't know which one is correct, but my statistics is not only based on Arab publications but as well israeli and american sources.
In any case the Palestinian population was always more important than the Jewish population untill 1948. And according to your source only a part of the rapid Palestinian growth was due to immigration.

[Pushtak18]

Takeo,


There is many cases of persecution and anti-semitism in Russia. I know that it may look hard to find but there was. And it wasn't just aimed at the jews. It was aimed at chinese russians, it was aimed at Catholics, Muslims, and ofcourse jews and i heard that in Uzbekistan there was hindus (this true??)


But on any ground, people want a new life. And whatever the term is for there reason to move, they want to move. I think that whenever your parents left to French Fries France, than they might have a good reason.

Remember if they had left in the 1970's then you would have seen a lot of strikes and revolts in labour sector of Russia. Things were detterirating Communism (as well as Facism, Dictatorship, one-man-rule, and Islamasism) was failing. People wanted a better life.

Even when Russia is still bad, life span for Russians is 20 years low. Seems like everyone in Russia is a cop!

Other than that, can you ask me why so many fled to Germany and Cyprus and even to poland and ofcourse some left to CIS states like Latvia and Estonia!

The Census really do not mean anything. The best senses that was taken was in Jerusalem between 1880 and 1920. The Ottaman empire took the census in Jerusalem and Area and i belive found that there was 20,000 people. And half were jewish and Half were Muslims.
The fact is that alot of the jews immigrated to Israel, but there are also jews who lived in Israel and especailly the Jerusalem area for along time. And same with the Muslim Arabs. Many of them had came from other parts as well. Im not saying directly to Israel, but after many immigrant jews came, on top of the British Mandate, there was opprotunity.

Remember, that not many people were living in Amman in around the time that it was under British Occupation, but when British needed workers for acres after acres of Rubber, Corn and Cotton feilds, many people came...some from as far away as Bahrain and maybe even Afganistan! You should look into that.

Lastly, i have a question for you?

Since you hate the fact of Jews having a state in Israel, how do you find the fact that Jordan was the same thing as Israel? I mean...King Abdulla 1 came (or should i say in your pronounciation, Immigrated) from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia and of course he came from the Hestimism Monarchy and formed a newer monarchy in Jordan.. How come you let a guy like this do something like that, but not let israel have the same thing.

And remember, that in 1948, you gotta give or take no more than 10 years and up, and that will tell you all of the states that surround Israel which have gotten there independence...

I think Syria got it in 1942, A year later Lebanon got it, In 1939 Egypt i belive and in 1940 Jordan!!!!!!

So we're all new here :) aren't we?

[takeo]

pushtak, thanks for your long replies, but from now on i won't have so much time to spend on this forum. (even in France people got to work sometimes)

"Ethinic-cleanisn does not mean depriving people. It means cleansing people due to there ethnic and or origing. Maybe you do have a point, but it doesn't make sense all of a sudden in todays politics especially in Israel.! "

cleansing means not allowing them back or expulsing them, that's quite different from killing them. Israel did this to millions of palestinians during and after the 1948-war;



"I can also go on and say to you the nice little deeds your french did in Syria, Lebanon and Vietnam, but that would be too darn explicit? Or Iran too...!! I can boil you up, pretty bad! "

what did we do in Iran?
In Vietnam the french did some pretty nasty things, but nothing compared to what the us did to that country!


"Netanyahu wasn't the one who promoted, im not even sure if he voted. He made a clear statement in the partys convention last month that if Palestinians want to persuse a state than they have some rules to follow before they can even begin indepnedency. One is the assurance that unlike now, they won't backstab Israel, make stingy alliance with bad states (N. Korea, Iraq, Iran...) and become Diplomatic in all nature..... "

that was certainly not the message on the latest likud-conference, the message was "no palestinian state, ever"


"Real Democracy isn't Hezbollah. This party has no legitimacy of Dimplomacy. It sets Lebanon back in the clock 20 years. They refuse to get change and promote violence. Even though they have promised reconciliation with the chritians there is still blood thirsty anger for them. I don't call that politics. I call that a Gurilla Terrorist coupe. "

i call sharon's policy a gurilla terrorist policy as well. hesbollah is not fighting christian Libanese any more;

"Secondly, stop lying! Israel never signed any peace treaty with Lebanon in the 2000 Withdrawl from Lebanon. We withdrawled because our 18 year mission died down. Ehud's main goal was to get Israeli soldiers out of Lebanon and he did it. We never signed and agreed upon anything. UN acknowledged the withdrawl, but Syria and Hezbollah did not, they still think they own the Sheeba farms, which is part of Syria and till today they commit terror against us. When Kofi annan levels Israel and Hezbollah the same then there is biasism going around. "

did i say any different,
but about hesbollah, hesbollah shouldn't attack israel (even if those attacks have almost ceased) while israel shouldn't have occupyed libanon, Syria, etc.

"And laslty, the Chritians are the anti-syrian organizers. They are the one's who protest and they have some non-chritians who help too. They demand freedom and democracy. Everyone is ignoring them, why cause ignorant people like you tend to see what media gives them. Your nothing! "

you see the libanese politics very simplistics, actually many Christians support the syrians and the government (most fervent supporters of the syrians are the armenians) while some muslims are against syrian presence. Palestinian refugees were never keen on Syria.

" To accuse Israel of killing many innocents is obscurd. IN the years of 1976-1981, Syria had committed more atrocities than probably there whole independent life as a country. Yet; i don't see one person complaining or brining it up. They already did damadge and although today it is calm and quiet, Syria still has no reason have a built up force in Lebanon! "

What atrocities are you talking about, by syria in libanon? we all know the atrocities of sabra and shatilla and the atrocities in the civil war.

"The Chritians did not invite the Syrians, Syrian's came after the summit in 76. The Falaginist Chritians never really welcomed them and from the start they were a foe. Since the Arab Leauge wanted a quick ceasation of fire, they asked for Syria's help. Eventhough Syria is not shooting and looting like they did 18 years ago. They do have a presence that many people in Lebanon do not welcome. They want freedome and then you come up to me and you start to complain to me that i am the wrong one telling people who is an occupier and who is not.
Your pure biased.
You point the finger at one thing but ignore another matter. Shame on you! how dare you! "

You do exactly the same. Libanese people hate israel a lot more than they hate syria. and the man who invited the Syrian troops in, was a falangist himself.
"They do have a presence that many people in palestine do not welcome. They want freedome and then you come up to me and you start to complain to me that i am the wrong one telling people who is an occupier and who is not. "



"Listen, they don't got a home in modern day Israel. Palestinians whom lived in Israel before 1948 and left as refugees left because of the war. Not my war that i started but the war that there Arab brothers and sisters started. Its not i who is responsibile to compensate them it is the Jordanians and others who decided to screw there life over and make them refugees on top of that give them no social security in there autrocratic kingdom and make them look like the lowest point on the earth on top of that massacring them cause of one man (arafat)! So why don't i hear any paychecks moving along? why is there no compesation for that? The thing that is different in America is the blacks never started a war. They acted like human beings and never called there brothers and sisters 5000 km from Congo or Banin to help them fight the Americans. They stayed and they live as normal citizens. "

Whoever caused the war, it is not right to etnic cleanse millions of civilians because of that. This question is going to hunt israel untill it gets a solution; Read the geneva-conventions my friend. so do you think if israel lost the 1967-war it started the arabs would have the right to etnic cleanse all of Israel?
again those people didn't live in jordan, they lived in israel and so israel should find a solution for the refugee-problem.
american-blacks did not start a war but catholic irish did against the english, would it have been right to cleanse all of ireland of catholics?




"Once again, you seem to get the whole notion wrong. Israel wants to live in Peace, but you understand that you peace and justice means our destrcution. There is no benefit that it will give by having Palestinians come in to Israel. Why are u so eager and ignorant to start 2 Palestininas states??? Do you want that? do you like the fact of a civil war? I don't care what the world thinks. Israel has the right for its Citizens and we don't have to do what other people tells us just so we can be forgivien and let in the world-commmunity. the world community is a place filled with biased and islamists who persuade genocide and tyrant and get the green light for it. Arabs never recognized Israel and even with peace they still won't! The Relations with have with both Jordan and Egypt are cold and stubborn and its really not worth it to sacrifice it once again! "

OK, so if you prefere to live at war instead of solving the refugee-problem, be my guest, in that case israel deserves to live at war.
the refugees in a certain number are not going to destroy israel or make it a palestinian state. if this question is solved israel could live in peace, if you don't want to try it of course...

[takeo]

"You are mixing up 1967 with 1956. Israel attacked Egypt in 1956 because they repussioned and 'ambushed' israel from the North of Sinain. In response israel attacked Egypt and along with UK, France defeated Egypt from holding that thing that lets boats through (i forgot its name).
So there you go, don't mix years up!
Israel was attacked in 1967, and defeated. Just because the so called 'guys who supposed to have won that war easily' lost like corn dogs doesn't give you the write to switch history and lie about it. Your a pure coward..... not a man indeed, a naked man who fears for the historic past! Whimp! "

i am not mixing up, in 1967 israel started to attack egypt, israel launched "pre-emptive strikes" in the euphimistic words of newsguy.

"Israel made no mistakes. "We have a right to fight and to defend ourselfs from enemies who wanted us gone. If we deprived anyone we would have made occupation of all Syria and Jordan so that they will be shattered and shamed to bits and bites. The palestinians have now a right to have there land and freedom but terrorism and it doesn't matter who, slow it and paralyze the dream! "

it's like saying that hamas did no make any mistakes by blowing up civilians, because they could have used even more extremistic means.
israel made serious mistakes, if you are not prepared to see your own mistakes it may explain your position.



"Of who????? The Palestininas if you so much recognize were occupied by the British, did they uprise, did they declare a country, did they want deomcracy? They were occupied by the Ottaman empire who did the same as birtish, they they do anything?"

they were occupyied by those countries as well, yet those countries didn't try to colonise them with brittish or Turksih immigrants. israel fought for its freedom against the british




"Israel always agreed to a fair and divided countires, till today. Israel made a cease-fire and like the issues that we face now, it was broken by ruthless dictators. The wars from 1948-1967 were not about "your occupying me" it was more about "i want you dead and annihlated". After the 1973, even if they surpised and aggressed a war that was bitterly, they still never achived what they had!!!!!! Even if Israel did accept the withdrawl in '48, the Arabs would still reject it. Its not about missing an opprotunity for the opprotunity. Its being blinded by hate and femine! "

that's not true, Arabs hated israel for specific reasons, uch as depriving millions of people.
israel also did NOT agree to any palestinian self-rule untill 1993.

"The Palestinians dictate there own fate. If they stop, it will be calm and back to normal. "

maybe so, but what do you call normal, building more settlements and not willing to negociate any crucial issue as in the 90's?



"No one wants to live in the shed of places which they had already lived. Its about choice not force. People found life in Israel and are willing to live there from now and forever! "

not always, palestinians don't have a choice to return to their homes.

"Listen and listen carefully...Your not understanding something very hard and bitterly...The Syrians will never compensate me and i don't want them too! I want my country and i make choice for my country. If i tell you that i am not willing to except new immigrants that will bring crime, high birth rate, poverty and aids to my country than you will listen for me. I pay taxes, i lived here all my life and i tend to live here with my kids too! You don't make my life up. you live in French and you dictate your own personal life, stop citizising other countires and make them feel bad, cause our country is not capable of having R.O.R, your not giving us our socio-economic cylcle of life! Instead you are proclaiming that jews should no longer be alloweed to rule!! Thats very rude. And also...Syria will not do anything more with Israel after a breakthrough is made. Syria is a poor country, in the last arab summit like always, Syria asked for a little cash from U.A.E and Bahrain!!!! Where were u the last time around buster? "

you're very rude to refuse people who lived in israel because of their etnic origin, and assume they will bring crime, etc.
we can't dictate israeli policy, but the world can decide that etnic cleansing is wrong and punsih israel for such a policy.
so don't complain syria did not compensate you, you don't want to be compensated, but many palestinians don't live in such good conditions as you do, they want to be compensated or go to israel, and that's their right according to international law, as it is your right to ask compensation from syria.

"Arab nationalism never gave kurds any opprotunity. Infact, after the whole Israeli-Arab issue is over. the Kurds will finally speak. They would want there land and unfortunetly the land which they want to have there country would be some of Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey....now tell me how you deal with that.
More so, Arab Nationalism goal was discriminating and excluded the Chritian, Druze and other small minorities. "

you're right about the kurds (not so much about the christians) the Arab nationalism is in fact similar to zionism, both are in essence related to fascism.


"On the other hand Zionism deals with having a jewish homeland, not depriving and being against the Palestinians. The Palestinians in 1948, never claimed there roots as palestinians and yet after the 1967 war they started speaking up about it. Zionisim policy is peace and tolerance, if it was a perfect world then the Palestinians would live free under Israel, but instead they decided war and not only 1 but 5 seperate wars which ended up figuring out there fate. Can you blame someone who wants death and destruction and his part of lifehood? Can you? "

zionism wanted a jewish land on land that was already inhabited by Palestinians, that is contrary to tolerance and peace, as well as the Arab claim on kurdish lands.
don't blaim anything on the war, of the 4 wars, israel started two.


"We don't have to open anything. The 1 million Arab-Israelis are already creating much of a hassle. They don't have a goal. the most successful arab-israelis are the ones that own stores, the rest don't want to try or can't and they have a big family. Even though the Arab Israeli relation have been not the best there has been a difference between 1970s and today, excluding the last 2 years. I think that if there was peace they would have international jobs and good pay because of there arab-tonuge in the arab world.....thats what i belive... unless you want to put more people through agony and pain by poverty you do so, but not here, do it in Nazi-France, please!!!! "

actually in "nazi-france" people of arab, jewish, and other origin get the same chances for good work, etc. We don't look upon Arabs as some kind of second-class people as you do. Even if in your country they are the original inhabitants while here they are immigrants.

"And now lets here my condition! you can eighter forget about the WB and Gaza and get no independence whatsover, or you can make peace with Israel, drop the Right of Return, get soverignty over your part of E.Jerusalem and have all (100%) of Gaza and almost all (93-97%) of West bank??? And to the Refugee issue, since there is a Palestinian state, why don't they go to that state and make new lives???"

those territories are already overpopulated with refugees. Without a solution for the refugee-question, there won't be peace, simple, the Arab world and the world will not accept your choice, the war will continue if you will react in such way.


"My comment was not racist, the Palestinains don't want any legitimacy in Israel, they want to destroy israel to the very tip until they get what they want. The russians came for a new life in Israel and they did. Like you went to France for a new, but rather cocky life, the Russian's chose Israel. "

cocky life :rolleyes: anyway how do you know palestinian refugees will destroy israel, most only want to live in peace exactly as the Russians. Terrorism is caused by the war and because millions of palestinians are exiled or occupied.



"Listen, you talk about palestinians wanting to go back to their houses??? There no houses there they probably built a stadium for Hapoel Kfar Saba so don't tell me they want to live inside a soccer feild! "

Well, in that case israel should build new houses for them, as in bosnia etnic cleansed people whose houses were destroyed got new houses.

[takeo]

"Ehud made all concessions, he want far, he want really really far. Its the attitude of the Palestinians. Don't tell me how to make peace or what not. Israel came with something on the table. Are u risking your time here to tell if you don't like an agreement (whichever it might be..House, car, mortgage, peace..etc) than you are willing to uprise and kill people to get your means necessary? "

it is better to live in war than in a very unjust peace. why do you think the Jewish ghetto in Warsawa attacked the Germans?

"If Arafat was to think smart than in August 2000 he could have resumed the peace negotiations and made peace, maybe put it at hold, and even if he did, in 2001, Barak will still be in power. He was suppose to be til' Oct. 2003! So we had alot of time, but what did arafat do? We all know! "

We also know what Barak did, shooting at children, and destroying pa-facilities, that was the wrong message to the palestinian people if he really wanted to end the intifadeh by negociations. Yet in the last months there wereserious peace-negociations.

"The 1st infifhada did not let to the First peace talks. Oslo wasn't created due to the Infitifhada. Was it one of the points, probably. but not an important one. The main key point was that Arafat was the one who was willing to make peace. He was out of options due to his stupidity in 1991 with Iraq, so when he made peace with Israel, declared an end to the infifhada, he than created a reputation as a noble president for the palestinians. The inifhada was a door to nowhere! "

no, before the intifadeh israel was never willing to talk with Arafat nor with any other palestinian or about palestinian self-rule, and end to building setlements, etc; .

"well, in 1999 Ehud came and wanted peace. Arafat didn't!"

they both wanted peace, but only on their own conditions, which were too far in between.

"That wasn't a smart move to withdrawl from Lebanon and it just goes to show you the true intentions of the Arabs afrer peace that they will still be in venom and hatred towards Israel which is not what peace is all about! "

after the withdrawel fewer people died at the border with libanon, so it was a smart move, even if it would have been much better with a peace-agreement.

"The Intifhada would have still went on no matter who is in office. Its not who is in Israeli office that the Palestinians want. Its who stops the Palestinians that is the key focus to ending intifhada and violence. We had Ehud and you started the uprising, and along with Shamir (right) and Rabin (left) and also Perez (left) you still did it!! "

No, under Perez the uprising stopped, because he was ready to negociate about palestinian rights, Sharon nor shamir were ready.

[elke]

Originally posted by takeo
OK, i believe you, but can you tell me exactly why your family moved from Russia, why did they feel persecuted?
My family and millions of other Soviet Jews didn't feel persecuted, and many still live in Russia or other CIS-states.
ps: my parents had real trouble too adapting to a new culture, yet they were not forced to immigrate, it was a decision based on practical considerations (job, money, etc.).

Read my post No.34, for starters. I don't know about your family, but I think you are pushing it when speaking of "millions of other Soviet Jews". Everyone I know, my friends and family, have felt persecuted. Everyone new I speak to also says the same thing.

The ONLY family I have left in former USSR is my grandfather, who is 85 years old. Everyone else is either dead or outside the former USSR in Israel, US, Germany, Australia, and South America.

My father has a Ph.D. in electronic engineering, and my mother has a Masters Degree in Russian Language and Literature. We were far from starving in Russia, so "practical considerations" were not an issue. In fact, one of my father's jobs when we just came to the US was sweeping a furniture factory. Another job was installing window panes. Far cry from Senior Scientist (a literal translation of his job title in Russia) at a Research and Development outfit, dedicated to telephony and communications, wouldn't you say?

The reason we left is because there was no room to BREATHE there. While some of it was common to any Soviet citizen, there was an added dimension because we were Jewish. From the "evil eye" of your neighbor, to unfair grades in school, to the constant fear of what you say and when you say it, to bribes and discrimination. In one word, as my great-grandmother used to call it "Hozereiland" ("Land of the Pigs" in Yiddish). I personally have never been beaten up in school because I was Jewish, but I have had fights over it with classmates. My father, on the other hand, DID get "Bey Zhida" (you should know what that means. If you don't, ask your parents. They should be familiar with this concept).

We were normal people. We did not become political activists or anything of the sort. My parents have attended, at our friends' house, some Hebrew courses and once we all saw slides of Jerusalem there. This was done in a blacked-out house (all the windows closed and draped, doors locked), and everyone come in individually, while looking to see if we were followed. We spoke in a whisper, because if anyone were to overhear, our whole bunch would have ended up in a slammer. I'll leave it to your imagination what would follow from there.

I remember my father freaking out because my friend called us on the telephone to invite us to the Jerusalem slide show. Did you know that our telephone was tapped? Did you know that we were one of the few families in the huge development we lived in that even HAD a phone?

I tell you: the one thing I will NEVER forgive Russia is not anti-semitism per se, but the fact that they stripped us of any knowledge and understanding of who we are, any pride we may feel in what we are, and simultaneously did not erase that prejudice. Anti-semitism was - and apparently is, - alive and well there, while the victims of it don't even understand what it is that's different about them.

I hope this helps clarify the situation for you.

[takeo]

i forgot this last one.


"Oh, I can well imagine the scene: Russian-Jewish emigrants from France on sentimental trip "back home", bursting in and asking tactless questions no one really wanted to hear let alone reply to. Your parents must have certainly sent anyone who wasn't there for the KGB screaming down the hill - hardly noticing it, of course, if they were so sure that they "know everything about life in the Soviet-union" - the most alien of all alien Westerners one can think of, of the arrogant variety and for practical purposes the ones whose contacts to the local population would arouse the strongest interest of the "authorities". A former Soviet citizen myself, I'd have taken greatest care myself to keep as much distance as possible. "

LOL
your image is quite biased. As you know Russians are nice people, and the soviet-period was not hell, if not the communist party wouldn't still be the biggest party in Russian parliament and even have the absolute majority trough democratic elections in countries as moldova or Belarus.
My parents didn't came there to lecture the Russians about what they should and shouldn't do, most Russians are very nice people with a wide range of opinions, as well the Jewish Russians, and i still have wonderfull memories about it and some friends.

"And it wasn't just about the Jews either. I've known people in Moscow who lost their jobs in the very same 80ies for the crime of baptizing their children Russian Orthodox. "

well, if this is true it is definately one of the downsides of the soviet-regime, which however doesn't mean it was a) anti-semitic b) had no qualities at all.
by the way i heard myself stories about burocracy, the system was not paradise either, but i would say still better than Russia as it is today, with lots of poverty and corruption worse than in Soviet-times.



"(Btw., it's off-topic, but in case you are interested I can provide you with the reasons why some German, Italian and Swiss employers don't like hiring Frenchmen. With due respect for your patriotism, please don't over-estimate the reputation of your countrymen.)"

many thanks, but no, i'm not interested in another francebashing, i know that France has good employment, good jobs (better than in italy or eastern germany for example) and a very well social security system. french may be lasier than Germans (but than again they live better) but more hard-working than italians or israeli. i never said France is perfect, it has its downsides, but confronted with so much bias, i will defend my country;
in any case i think the german reputation in Europe is worse than the French.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by elke
I hope this helps clarify the situation for you.

Elke, that was fascinating.

Thank you for posting that!

[L@mplighterM]

I?ll second that elke!

Actually it?s right on target from everything that I?ve ever read about the former Soviet Union. It somehow becomes more alive when I saw it posted on the forum.

I?ve given up on the flaming Arab a long time ago and I put him on ignore a long time ago.

[takeo]

"Other than that, can you ask me why so many fled to Germany and Cyprus and even to poland and ofcourse some left to CIS states like Latvia and Estonia! "

Latvia and Estonia are no CIS-countries.
Russians flee Russia because since 15 years the Russian economy is falling apart.

"The Census really do not mean anything. The best senses that was taken was in Jerusalem between 1880 and 1920. The Ottaman empire took the census in Jerusalem and Area and i belive found that there was 20,000 people. And half were jewish and Half were Muslims.
The fact is that alot of the jews immigrated to Israel, but there are also jews who lived in Israel and especailly the Jerusalem area for along time. And same with the Muslim Arabs. Many of them had came from other parts as well. Im not saying directly to Israel, but after many immigrant jews came, on top of the British Mandate, there was opprotunity. "

in jerusalem there were many Jews who always lived in israel for many centuries. but of course always a small minority, except maybe in jerusalem.
yes there was immigration, nothing wrong with that, but it has to happen in a legal circumstance, there is a difference between immigrating in compliance with the laws of your host-country, or immigrating as Attila The Hun did, with military force.
if i come to live in your house as a friend or as an armed squatter it will make a difference won't it?

[takeo]

thanks elke, that was indeed a very interesting post, even if i find it difficult to combine with the histories of my family.
I was too young when i travelled to the soviet-union myself.

it all depends what you call "persecuted"...
we all agree that no Jews in Russia under soviet-rule (excluding of course the bloody civil war and WWII) were slaughtered purely because they were Jews, ok? this was already a great accomplishment compared to the past. Also i hope you will agree with me, being Jewish didn't necessarily mean a block to any carreer perspectives. (maybe at the beginning of the 50's)


"My father has a Ph.D. in electronic engineering, and my mother has a Masters Degree in Russian Language and Literature. We were far from starving in Russia, so "practical considerations" were not an issue. In fact, one of my father's jobs when we just came to the US was sweeping a furniture factory. Another job was installing window panes. Far cry from Senior Scientist (a literal translation of his job title in Russia) at a Research and Development outfit, dedicated to telephony and communications, wouldn't you say? "

yes i heard that kind of stories form many people, it must have been hard for highly-qualified people as your family. My parents were more lucky and immidiately had a good job, in fact it was for the job that they came to Russia.

"The reason we left is because there was no room to BREATHE there. While some of it was common to any Soviet citizen, there was an added dimension because we were Jewish. From the "evil eye" of your neighbor, to unfair grades in school, to the constant fear of what you say and when you say it, to bribes and discrimination. In one word, as my great-grandmother used to call it "Hozereiland" ("Land of the Pigs" in Yiddish). I personally have never been beaten up in school because I was Jewish, but I have had fights over it with classmates. My father, on the other hand, DID get "Bey Zhida" (you should know what that means. If you don't, ask your parents. They should be familiar with this concept). "

i have heard that expression before, it is a very sad memory of the russian tsaristic past.
My parents in their youth didn't have such experiences, or at least never talked about it. My grandmother told me about such experiences, when in the early 50's many Jews were unofficially accused of being "cosmopolites" and lost all high positions and had to endure quite some insults, after a few years things got back to normal. But my family told me that deep inside some Russians a kind of nationalistic pride is hiding and that some still see Jews as a kind of evil, but such feelings were certainly not encouraged by the system, on the contrary. Antisemitism is soviet-Russia was never brutal or systematic but rather upon individuals. that's what i heard. In that sence the soviet-policy was good because it removed all physical and other barriers between the Jews and other people so that they became almost undistinguishable. But even if my parents and their family were not distinguishable from Russians, the Jewish identity always remained, inside, and on the identity cart.
What do you mean breathe? i think it is a very subjective feeling. my parents never felt oppressed or limited in their youth, ok, russian society is less individual than American or French, but in Russia i remember people listening to nirvana-lyrics, i heard about poets as vysotsky making political satire in the 60's, only people who really engaged in "subversive" activities as political non-autorized organisations or non- autorized religious cults could expect some day a visit from the secret service.

"We were normal people. We did not become political activists or anything of the sort. My parents have attended, at our friends' house, some Hebrew courses and once we all saw slides of Jerusalem there. This was done in a blacked-out house (all the windows closed and draped, doors locked), and everyone come in individually, while looking to see if we were followed. We spoke in a whisper, because if anyone were to overhear, our whole bunch would have ended up in a slammer. I'll leave it to your imagination what would follow from there. "

my family showed interest in Israel in the 60's when they were already in france, but never in Russia, not because they were afraid, but because the idea of leaving the Soviet-union had not appeared to them, my family as many Russians had a quite confortable life in those days. They were also never interested in religion, i think this applies for many Russian Jews;



i"I tell you: the one thing I will NEVER forgive Russia is not anti-semitism per se, but the fact that they stripped us of any knowledge and understanding of who we are, any pride we may feel in what we are, and simultaneously did not erase that prejudice. Anti-semitism was - and apparently is, - alive and well there, while the victims of it don't even understand what it is that's different about them. "

maybe true that learning Judaism was certainly not propagated, and that the aim was to integrate the Jews completely into Russian society, a goal wich pretty much succeeded but isn't equal to antisemitism. yet everyone could search for himself his or her roots, nobody will or could prevend that. I think you can cherish your roots, but it shouldn't prevend you from being French, American or russian, or marry with a non Jewish girl/man and contribute to the etnic mix. That's why i hate the idea of zionism, why should jews separate themselves from other people and country? to me it's not a progressive movement but a backwards movement in the time.

[elke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
we all agree that no Jews in Russia under soviet-rule (excluding of course the bloody civil war and WWII) were slaughtered purely because they were Jews, ok?

No, not OK. It's not true. Stalin killed quite a few, sent others to the GULAG, and "ethnically cleansed" yet others to Birabidjan (section of Siberia). By the time I was born, the slaughter ended and nobody went to Birabidjan. However, the rest of it remained the same.

this was already a great accomplishment compared to the past.

Yes, a "great accomplishment".

Also i hope you will agree with me, being Jewish didn't necessarily mean a block to any carreer perspectives. (maybe at the beginning of the 50's)

You obviously did not read my Post #34, if you can make such a statement. I should also mention that my father wrote a couple of technical books all by his lonesome, which could only be published if he added his superior's non-Jewish name to the credits.

yes i heard that kind of stories form many people, it must have been hard for highly-qualified people as your family. My parents were more lucky and immidiately had a good job, in fact it was for the job that they came to Russia.

Good for them! We have friends who came here about 10 years ago, the husband was a professor at the Institute of Cables and Communications in St. Petersburg and the wife - a dentist. They are now a bookkeeper and dental assistant, respectively, with no prospects for anything better (they were in their 50's when they came and their English is mediocre).

i have heard that expression before, it is a very sad memory of the russian tsaristic past.

"Russian tsaristic past", my foot! We are talking about '40s to '60s here, as far as my father is concerned.

My parents in their youth didn't have such experiences, or at least never talked about it. My grandmother told me about such experiences, when in the early 50's many Jews were unofficially accused of being "cosmopolites" and lost all high positions and had to endure quite some insults, after a few years things got back to normal. But my family told me that deep inside some Russians a kind of nationalistic pride is hiding and that some still see Jews as a kind of evil, but such feelings were certainly not encouraged by the system, on the contrary.

Well, looking at the situation there right now, it looks like it's back.

Antisemitism is soviet-Russia was never brutal or systematic but rather upon individuals. that's what i heard.

You heard wrong.

But even if my parents and their family were not distinguishable from Russians, the Jewish identity always remained, inside, and on the identity cart.

Bingo! Not to mention that others never missed a chance to point it out.

What do you mean breathe? i think it is a very subjective feeling. my parents never felt oppressed or limited in their youth, ok, russian society is less individual than American or French, but in Russia i remember people listening to nirvana-lyrics, i heard about poets as vysotsky making political satire in the 60's, only people who really engaged in "subversive" activities as political non-autorized organisations or non- autorized religious cults could expect some day a visit from the secret service.

The key to your quandary is in the definition of the "political non-authorized organizations or non-authorized religious cults".

my family showed interest in Israel in the 60's when they were already in france, but never in Russia, not because they were afraid, but because the idea of leaving the Soviet-union had not appeared to them, my family as many Russians had a quite confortable life in those days. They were also never interested in religion, i think this applies for many Russian Jews;

Yes, most Russian Jews are not interested in religion. However, the question arises: how can you decide whether or not you are interested, when you know nothing about it?


maybe true that learning Judaism was certainly not propagated, and that the aim was to integrate the Jews completely into Russian society, a goal wich pretty much succeeded but isn't equal to antisemitism. yet everyone could search for himself his or her roots, nobody will or could prevend that. I think you can cherish your roots, but it shouldn't prevend you from being French, American or russian, or marry with a non Jewish girl/man and contribute to the etnic mix.

There was no information available on anything Jewish. The closest we came were some Sholom Aleichem stories.

That's why i hate the idea of zionism, why should jews separate themselves from other people and country? to me it's not a progressive movement but a backwards movement in the time.

You can agree or disagree with the idea of Zionism, but the Jews can separate themselves the same way the French do. There is a shared heritage, history, culture, food, etc. etc.

[Vic]

Originally posted by takeo
your image is quite biased. As you know Russians are nice people, and the soviet-period was not hell, if not the communist party wouldn't still be the biggest party in Russian parliament and even have the absolute majority trough democratic elections in countries as moldova or Belarus.
"democratic elections in Belarus", for one...
In case someone else here cares: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countries/belarus?OpenView&Start=1&Count=30&Expandall - all of it I suppose just an issue of
Originally posted by takeo
only people who really engaged in "subversive" activities as political non-autorized organisations or non- autorized religious cults could expect some day a visit from the secret service.
nothing to worry about...

I give up, sorry. I'm getting seriously concerned about my health: I think I'll die of laughter reading your postings.

One last question: are you acting the clown on purpose, by chance?

[Pushtak18]

Israel did not attack egypt! Once again, you are reffering to the 1956 war. Yes; after Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt all attacked Israel in in June 1967. In retaliation Israel striked them and that is why we call it the 6 day war. If Israel hadn't attacked them in retaltion to there invasion of Israel, than the war would have went on for maybe 3 months?
Don't detter israel's success...and if you dare call the 1967 war an aggression by Israel than quote the late Nasser in what he said before the war where he wanted the end to Israel.

Don't think stupid here. We are talking 1967. Theres no land occupied by Israel, there is no occupation, and none of whatever you want to call it. It was they who went in a lost and yet you blame israel for it. Like always; you blame israel for everything, you ignorant, biased, racist monk!


You say so many times that Israel made mistakes yet you never ever talk about it? what mistakes has Israel made? Is it Occupation?? Did you give Israel another choice? You bombarded Israel with 3 major wars in from 1948 to 1967, not to mention the average shootout and the ambushes that happened here and there. You are making a grave mistake right now when you choose to ignore Israels right to exist in our own choice, while you explore and depend on Hamas trying to make the calls. We had a ligitimate reason and even if there is occupation and settlements, israel is willing to negotiate. Call the settlements the mistake, but israel is willing to fix it. Don't call Islamic/Arab/Regime/Baath Party aggression that was made before you were born israel's one in 2002. Don't clarify and modify history because it is skanky and one day historians will turn there back on you! So watch it!

I'm waiting for the historians to urinate all over the french flag one day! :) I live for that day!!!

The palestinians did not Uprise against the British and especially the Turikish because they were afraid. How dare you say to me that Israel colonized, while the British and the Turkish objective in Israel was to make a colony. Right now you just prove your stupidity and ignorance at its best. You want to go talk to people, go to Chile, there is a big palestinians community there which was immigrants who fled the turkish regime back in the 19th century. Right now there are 300,000 and yes most of them are chritians. And the fact is that when you ask where they live, not one lived in Modern day Israel, most would they you that they lived in Jericho, or Bethlehme, or Ramallah, but not Israel!!! So what do you want from Israel now?


Takeo...Stop making things up! Its not a one hit wonder here or a phenomenom! Arabs hate israel because they are taught hatred. its not personal decisions here. If you are taught to hate your infidels you do so, you do cooperate. Israel was hated before there was the so called "deprivation of the Palestinians"!!! So in some terms they hated us just cause we are jews (Sign of anti-semitism)!! And also, we were hated 30 years and more before we ever had a state in the Arab world. iraqi jews had feared for there life and one of the things that made them re-decide was that the Baath Party (saddams and Bashars party) took over King Faisal, which many jews feared...there was the Al-QUasimda riots which killed 43 jews in the summer of 1924!! That wasn't zionism? that wasn't uprising? that was pure anti-semitsim! SO STOP IT!

Listen, we had a peace process...we had the ups and downs of it. We have blame on all side, even if im Israeli i take responsibility. But the fact is that Circa 2000, we we're all sitting down to negotiate on this. We had a serious issue, who blumpet it off??

And tell me this?? What did you have to lose?? Everything? you lost your own people in rhetoric talk, you lost a statehood, you lost freedome and hope for your people!!! Even if you didn't like it we were willing to negotiate more! Settlements are not the issue. Israel had settelements in the Sinai, yet we dismantled them and went back to our borders. With a peace deal we can do the same.
Remember!!!!
Israel owns roughly 1.8 percent in homes in the west bank! But ofcourse occupies 40%!!!!! If you see if, we would dismantle the settlements that are in the middle of the west bank, and make them in the populated area, where they can be the ulitmate suburban towns with 3-7% of area! Those area will be converted to land for the palestinians somewhere else.

Also, please refrain from lies such as colonialization! Look at your cocky french colonilzation and compare Israel!!!

What do you mean that the palestinians don't have a choice!!!! They obviously don't...because i think if they lived for the past 50 years and there kids had kids, than i think Jordanians should make them citizens!

Listen!!! Don't call me rude and don't dictate my life with international rules! Those rules are bogus and if they work one way they wouldn't work the other.
You think when my granparents came to Israel they had money or wealth?? NO!!!! But they had a dream, and a vision.... Whereas even if you have a palestinian state today you would never have been free economic and deomocratic!!!!!!! Israel gave chances to its people, never deprived them! don't say we discrimnate muslims and arabs because we have muslims and arabs living inside israel! Infact, talk to the Coach of Maccabi Yaffo, he is 53 years old and he is an arab, he loves and respect israel, and you know where he came from...Kuwait...
Want to know more about him???!! you would spit your lies on here!

[Pushtak18]

Im sorry to interupt you daily lies, but Zionism far from Arab Nationalism...maybe in the begining when Arab Nationalism started, did they have something in common, but after words it began to be just propoganda to try and get more land. Ask Qatar and Bahrain why they were fighting for. Also, Mumar Ghdaffi was a high knowledgeable Arab Nationalistic..He wanted a huge Arab Empire/Country without any jews, chritians and kurds!!!!! He would have them killed....that was one of his famous speeches in 85/86!

Zionism didn't have anything to talk about Jewish people going into land that was inhabbitted and creating catosraphic measures. For all your knowledge goes for, you didn't know that perhaps the jewish state could have been in Uganda, since it was part of Britian! And Stalin always wanted to make a self rule state of the jews, but never really came up with it, and everyone know that he was willing to wipe jews out of the map when he did so.
Israel never started all 4 wars. Its insane to say that! If you attack a country first it doesn't mean that you are the starters of wars, nor are you the good guys. If that was the case than the Arabs and your propoganda would have gotten off scotch free!

Is that so.....isn't it true what many say in France about Arabs....when someone tells me about the Marseille Slummer or Paris ghetto, not many do refer to lower income family, instead they refer to Arabs. Im not saying its right,but many politicians critizise the arabs. Unlike the Jews, whom have integrated into French society, the Arabs have not. It seems like they have a country inside a country, and yet some of them don't work and are costing French tax payers billions. And im not saying that its right, or wrong, but you should have a solution for that, after all, your french!
And so for Israel, we do have Arabs working in all major sectors. Infact, i think out of all the Arab adults in Israel there are maybe 5% of whom are unemployed. For many examples, i work in an office, and the secretary in my office is an Arab from Nazareth, in a more open sense, back when i was in school i had not 1 but 2 arab teachers........ one for science, the other for Arabic (learning the language). So don't try to say that Israel does not give them job! We give them full and right opprotunity. Just look at the Israeli NT, there are arabs (2 of them in the NT) who represent israel and im proud that they do represent israel, because it just goes to show how much diversity there is inside israel. And when you call us "DIRTY JEWS" in 2003 for EURO 2004 (which israel is in the french group) remember those 2 arabs.....

"those territories are already overpopulated with refugees. Without a solution for the refugee-question, there won't be peace, simple, the Arab world and the world will not accept your choice, the war will continue if you will react in such way."

Do you understand that my country is going to be already populated if you gonna put more refugees in.....It just goes to show that the Palestinians even if they lived in what would be now palestine, they still don't want to live in it. Which means that there will be a guranteed 7 million participants in your pre-emptive civil war against Israel. If the world wants catosrophic measures in the near future, than i guess when they accept this they do! And i am sure not all do accept this. Canada and the USA, alon with Brtiain and as well as France are willing to help with the refugee issue! If all the countries in the arab world were to take resonsibility (FINALLY) for there mistakes and make peace+ allow all refugees to be in there country than all they have to do is for each arab country to accept no more than 160,000 refugees, now! Thats only 25 countries...there are more countries that are willing to help! If they are around 75 countries even Israel is willing to help...than 53,000 refugees will go and live and get land.
This is not about Right of Retrurn to there homeland, this is about people who left home, due to a war that was started by the people who know host them and for 50 years they lived without rights and citizenships in those countrys. I gurantee you!! If the Jordanians were to have some sanity, they would grant them citizenship 40 years ago, and the palestina Refugeee problem wouldn't be here! Remember!!!!! Not once arafat said in Oslo, in Wye river and in Hebron Agreement that he wants the refugees back!! its his odd choice and its not going to work! Its like he made it the last minute!!

Terrorism is not cause by war and occupation. Terrorism is caused by peace. Terrorism against israel, directly at Israeli Civilians started in 1994. Nothing happened between 1982-1987..and in 1987 most were inside the West bank, and it wasn't much.... Terrorism started because the peace processs started? why is that? it is because the people who commit the terrorism are the same people who object to peace with Israel. Its not a matter of time or a matter of delay in Peace. These people wanted anarchy, everytime you had a breakthrough you also had a bombing on buses in Israel. It was to make Israelis more angry at the palestinians, but time prevailed and Israelis sought peace, even after the bombings and now they still do! So don't be very Naaive and blame the Israelis for this! Its the palestinians who perpetrate this acts of violence. And it doesn't mean that its because of settelement or delay or peace or net fairness...These people started to be against it. And in so forth are not arguing for the stop of occupation, but vice-versa; which they want MORE OCCUPATION and MORE CONTROL BY THE IDF so they can stop.

Why didn't they bomb a bus in 1992 in Israel?? it is because they didn't have the autonomy to hide a bomb factory in Nablus or Jenin and have Israel find it in 2 seconds. When we have them Autonomy, they used it to get extremism powerful! And now when they want to reform you are awarding these islamic criminals with a job at the Cabinet of the PA! How dare you, shall i say!


Build them new houses??? Forget it!! Im not building them new houses? How come this peace agreement is in the mixture of building new houses and compensating just one side. We both been in tragedys and we both suffered alot, on eighter side, and yet this peace process is for a state not to compensate one another. If they want, we'll build them a house in Jordan which is not that full (unlike) israel, instead of in Israel!!!!!! So get it threw you thick head!

[Vic]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I?ve given up on the flaming Arab a long time ago and I put him on ignore a long time ago.
Just done the same - for a while, at least. The pages have become much shorter :)

Btw, is "Arab" generally accepted as a pejorative term in modern American usage?

[takeo]

about Belarus according to most foreign observers the last elections were fair, if not the media-coverage (but that is true in for example Italy as well, not to mention Russia or Ukrain, and also Nader never got the same media-coverage as bush or Gore).
in moldova the communists got more than 70% of the votes in elections declared free and fair by all foreign observers and the ocse.

"No, not OK. It's not true. Stalin killed quite a few, sent others to the GULAG, and "ethnically cleansed" yet others to Birabidjan (section of Siberia). By the time I was born, the slaughter ended and nobody went to Birabidjan. However, the rest of it remained the same. "

I don't think anyone came in the Gulag only because he was Jew... during Stalinist times many jews were at high positions, even so much that Hitler accused the Soviet-union to be a "creation of international Jewry".
Birobidjan was the Soviet-answer to zionism, they created a Jewish homeland in the Soviet-union. I agree that the idea failed and most Soviet-jews never considered moving there, only a few percent of the population of birobidjan is actually jewish.

.

"Yes, a "great accomplishment". "

yes, it was, no more pogroms occured, the heavy persecution of Jewish minority ceased;



"You obviously did not read my Post #34, if you can make such a statement. I should also mention that my father wrote a couple of technical books all by his lonesome, which could only be published if he added his superior's non-Jewish name to the credits. "

I said " not necessarily", many jews still had high positions in the 60's, 70's and 80's, even if some others were discriminated because they were Jewish. that's what i mean, it was not systematic anti-semitism.


""Russian tsaristic past", my foot! We are talking about '40s to '60s here, as far as my father is concerned. "

OK, but it was most widely known to be the words initiating the pogroms at the turn of the century.


"Well, looking at the situation there right now, it looks like it's back. "

Could be, some devellopments in current russia are frightening.





"Yes, most Russian Jews are not interested in religion. However, the question arises: how can you decide whether or not you are interested, when you know nothing about it? "

People had their families to teach them the religion, and some jews are still religious and went to synagogues, even in soviet times, so everyone interested in religion had the opportunity to learn about the religion.




"You can agree or disagree with the idea of Zionism, but the Jews can separate themselves the same way the French do. There is a shared heritage, history, culture, food, etc. etc."

The same food? Moroccan Jews eat different than we do, etc. The same about culture, mentality, etc;
the only thing all Jews have in common is a religious past and history, and maybe some genetic links, nothing more.

The french have much more in common with eachother than Jews, i have more in common with French people than with you or an ethiopian Jew;

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Vic
Btw, is "Arab" generally accepted as a pejorative term in modern American usage?
"Arab" is not pejorative in any way.

[elke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
about Belarus according to most foreign observers the last elections were fair, if not the media-coverage (but that is true in for example Italy as well, not to mention Russia or Ukrain, and also Nader never got the same media-coverage as bush or Gore).
in moldova the communists got more than 70% of the votes in elections declared free and fair by all foreign observers and the ocse.

Nader had support of approximately 4% of the American population. He, and everyone else, knew that he had no chance of winning, - as did Pat Buchanan. That's why the media coverage was spotty for him.

I don't think anyone came in the Gulag only because he was Jew... during Stalinist times many jews were at high positions, even so much that Hitler accused the Soviet-union to be a "creation of international Jewry".
Birobidjan was the Soviet-answer to zionism, they created a Jewish homeland in the Soviet-union. I agree that the idea failed and most Soviet-jews never considered moving there, only a few percent of the population of birobidjan is actually jewish.

You never heard of the ''trials of the Jewish doctors"? You never heard of the Osip Mandelshtam? Fancy using Hitler's accusations as "proof" of lack of anti-semitism in Russia. This is just too rich!

yes, it was, no more pogroms occured, the heavy persecution of Jewish minority ceased;

Bull****. The heavy persecution of Jewish minority far from ceased.

I said " not necessarily", many jews still had high positions in the 60's, 70's and 80's, even if some others were discriminated because they were Jewish. that's what i mean, it was not systematic anti-semitism.

Nothing in Russia was ever systematic, not the good not the bad, not before 1917 and not after.

OK, but it was most widely known to be the words initiating the pogroms at the turn of the century.

It was also known as the words initiating the pogroms after 1917 as well. That's my point.

Could be, some devellopments in current russia are frightening.

You said it! The only thing is: this was always there, only now it's known outside as well.

People had their families to teach them the religion, and some jews are still religious and went to synagogues, even in soviet times, so everyone interested in religion had the opportunity to learn about the religion.

Spoken like a person who has never lived there.

I don't know what else to tell you. I can see that I was right: it's impossible to convince you of anything different than what you believe, even though your knowledge is at best, spotty.

I don't know what it's like to grow up where you are the same as everyone else, so I can't understand where you are coming from. You, on the other hand, seem to have felt no difference between yourself and the others, so you can't understand how I think.

There is no question that there were some significant improvements overall since the Communists came to power. The most glaring one is the general literacy of the population. However, as far as the Jews were concerned, improvements were relatively minor. The quotas in the educational institutions were officially abolished, but remained unofficially. While the official impediments to living in larger cities in Russia proper disappeared, the "propiska" system effectively kept many out of the larger cities. The discrimination continued, as did the property appropriations. Stalin, as I mentioned earlier, continued the persecution of the Jews AS JEWS. Since no recourse for the discrimination and anti-semitism was available (i.e. courts, police protection, etc.), for all intents and purposes, the fact that these things were against the law did not matter.

There were many Jews in the Socialist and Communist movements in Russia. There is talk that Lenin himself was part-Jewish. The reason they got involved was that they were HOPING that when there is no more class struggle, and religion is not an issue, that Jews will finally become "one of us". These sentiments are understandable, but these people turned out to be wrong.

[Vic]

Oh, Elke, please. I don't want to put you on my ignore list for making the BS visible to me by quoting it ;)

[takeo]

"Israel did not attack egypt! Once again, you are reffering to the 1956 war. Yes; after Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt all attacked Israel in in June 1967. In retaliation Israel striked them and that is why we call it the 6 day war. If Israel hadn't attacked them in retaltion to there invasion of Israel, than the war would have went on for maybe 3 months? "

ok, i see some facts are needed here...


"1967 May: Forces on both Arab and Israeli sides of the borders are mobilized.
June 5: Israel attacks Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel achieved great victories immediately, especially on the Egyptian front, where Egyptian air crafts are wiped out after effective bombing of air strips.
June 7: The strategically important Egyptian Sharm el Sheikh is captured.
— Jordan surrenders to Israel, after having lost East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
June 8: The entire Sinai comes under Israeli control. Later that evening, Israeli fights on the Egyptian front cease.
June 10: Syria surrenders, after seeing Golan Heights come under Israeli control."

http://i-cias.com/e.o/sixdaywr.htm





"You say so many times that Israel made mistakes yet you never ever talk about it? what mistakes has Israel made? Is it Occupation?? Did you give Israel another choice? You bombarded Israel with 3 major wars in from 1948 to 1967, not to mention the average shootout and the ambushes that happened here and there. You are making a grave mistake right now when you choose to ignore Israels right to exist in our own choice, while you explore and depend on Hamas trying to make the calls. We had a ligitimate reason and even if there is occupation and settlements, israel is willing to negotiate. Call the settlements the mistake, but israel is willing to fix it. Don't call Islamic/Arab/Regime/Baath Party aggression that was made before you were born israel's one in 2002. Don't clarify and modify history because it is skanky and one day historians will turn there back on you! So watch it! "

israel's mistakes: etnic cleansing in 1948 (still not reversed), 1955 war against egypt, 1967-war and occupation (the biggest mistake), colonisation, the occupation of libanon, the bombing of tunis, the israeli reaction to the second intifadeh are the most important mistakes.
Arab-palestinian mistake: the 1948-war, refusing to recognise israel for many years, supporting terrorism against civilians.

"I'm waiting for the historians to urinate all over the french flag one day! I live for that day!!! "

thanks, you're a nice person

"The palestinians did not Uprise against the British and especially the Turikish because they were afraid. How dare you say to me that Israel colonized, while the British and the Turkish objective in Israel was to make a colony. Right now you just prove your stupidity and ignorance at its best. You want to go talk to people, go to Chile, there is a big palestinians community there which was immigrants who fled the turkish regime back in the 19th century. Right now there are 300,000 and yes most of them are chritians. And the fact is that when you ask where they live, not one lived in Modern day Israel, most would they you that they lived in Jericho, or Bethlehme, or Ramallah, but not Israel!!! So what do you want from Israel now? "

OK, so if the ottomans colonised palestine it is all right for israel to do so. :rolleyes:


"iraqi jews had feared for there life and one of the things that made them re-decide was that the Baath Party (saddams and Bashars party) took over King Faisal, which many jews feared...there was the Al-QUasimda riots which killed 43 jews in the summer of 1924!! That wasn't zionism? that wasn't uprising? that was pure anti-semitsim! SO STOP IT! "

baath only came to power in the 60's... it can't be blamed for what happened in the 20's.
yes there was anti-semitism in both the Arab world and Europe, is that a justification for everything israel did?
can i steal from someone because someone else did steal from me?

"And tell me this?? What did you have to lose?? Everything? you lost your own people in rhetoric talk, you lost a statehood, you lost freedome and hope for your people!!! Even if you didn't like it we were willing to negotiate more! Settlements are not the issue. Israel had settelements in the Sinai, yet we dismantled them and went back to our borders. With a peace deal we can do the same. "

Palestinians had few things to loose, they already lost everything, israel however has a lot to loose. israel is not prepared to negociate at all with the palestinians, and in 2000 they were not prepared to discuss about some very important issues.

"Remember!!!!
Israel owns roughly 1.8 percent in homes in the west bank! But ofcourse occupies 40%!!!!! If you see if, we would dismantle the settlements that are in the middle of the west bank, and make them in the populated area, where they can be the ulitmate suburban towns with 3-7% of area! Those area will be converted to land for the palestinians somewhere else. "

i hope so this issue will be resolved quickly;

"Also, please refrain from lies such as colonialization! Look at your cocky french colonilzation and compare Israel!!! "

Ok, france colonised, but not any more, israel still colonises... that's the difference...


"Listen!!! Don't call me rude and don't dictate my life with international rules! Those rules are bogus and if they work one way they wouldn't work the other. "

so you are prepared to be a roghe state and not recognise international laws?

"Israel gave chances to its people, never deprived them! don't say we discrimnate muslims and arabs because we have muslims and arabs living inside israel! Infact, talk to the Coach of Maccabi Yaffo, he is 53 years old and he is an arab, he loves and respect israel, and you know where he came from...Kuwait...
Want to know more about him???!! you would spit your lies on here!"

ok, so because this coach is happy in israel it means the millions of palestinians have no reason at all to complain. what chances did they get?

[takeo]

"Im sorry to interupt you daily lies, but Zionism far from Arab Nationalism...maybe in the begining when Arab Nationalism started, did they have something in common, but after words it began to be just propoganda to try and get more land."

so zionism is not about land????


"Zionism didn't have anything to talk about Jewish people going into land that was inhabbitted and creating catosraphic measures. For all your knowledge goes for, you didn't know that perhaps the jewish state could have been in Uganda, since it was part of Britian!"

yes i know that, in that case i think israel would now have been fighting ugandans and ugandans would have been "the greatest anti-semites ever" killers, animals, etc. .

" And Stalin always wanted to make a self rule state of the jews, but never really came up with it, and everyone know that he was willing to wipe jews out of the map when he did so. "

ok, so actually stalin killed all soviet Jews...
(i guess you have never heard of birobidjan, that is not incuded the israeli propaganda courses)

"Israel never started all 4 wars. Its insane to say that! If you attack a country first it doesn't mean that you are the starters of wars, nor are you the good guys. If that was the case than the Arabs and your propoganda would have gotten off scotch free! "

no, that's right, israel started the 1955 war, 1967 war, and the war in libanon. only three.

"Is that so.....isn't it true what many say in France about Arabs....when someone tells me about the Marseille Slummer or Paris ghetto, not many do refer to lower income family, instead they refer to Arabs. Im not saying its right,but many politicians critizise the arabs. "

only fascist politicians who are also anti-semitic. "slums" in France are not existing, unlike in the us, if you would have ever come here you would know that.

"Unlike the Jews, whom have integrated into French society, the Arabs have not. It seems like they have a country inside a country, and yet some of them don't work and are costing French tax payers billions. And im not saying that its right, or wrong, but you should have a solution for that, after all, your french! "

you are talking like Le Pen, but Arabs are integrating into the french society, but more slowly the jews. and they work too, or won't receive any wellfare.


"And so for Israel, we do have Arabs working in all major sectors. Infact, i think out of all the Arab adults in Israel there are maybe 5% of whom are unemployed."

but there are very few palestinians in israel with good jobs as managers ... racism against pals in israel is something i heard daily when i came there, much more than in France, and it was BEFORE the 2th intifadeh.


"For many examples, i work in an office, and the secretary in my office is an Arab from Nazareth, in a more open sense, back when i was in school i had not 1 but 2 arab teachers........ one for science, the other for Arabic (learning the language). So don't try to say that Israel does not give them job! We give them full and right opprotunity. Just look at the Israeli NT, there are arabs (2 of them in the NT) who represent israel and im proud that they do represent israel, because it just goes to show how much diversity there is inside israel. And when you call us "DIRTY JEWS" in 2003 for EURO 2004 (which israel is in the french group) remember those 2 arabs..... "

yes i will call them "dirty jews" :rolleyes:
ok, israelis treating the israeli palestinians (the few who were able to stay there in pre-1967 israel) far better than the other palestinians, that's why NONE of them have become suicide-bombers.
but still they experience much racism, not on the official level, but much like Elke described about racism against Jewish people in the soviet-union. the high and well-aid jobs are usually not for the palestinians. One year ago a pro-palestinian demonstration of israeli palestinians was shot at by the army.


"Do you understand that my country is going to be already populated if you gonna put more refugees in.....It just goes to show that the Palestinians even if they lived in what would be now palestine, they still don't want to live in it. "

the pals who already live in israel live in peace, and if israel was able to take one milion of russians it has no right to complain about one million of palestinians.

" And i am sure not all do accept this. Canada and the USA, alon with Brtiain and as well as France are willing to help with the refugee issue!"

that's right, but israel has to help too;

If all the countries in the arab world were to take resonsibility (FINALLY) for there mistakes and make peace+ allow all refugees to be in there country than all they have to do is for each arab country to accept no more than 160,000 refugees, now!"

again, those refugees come from israel, why should they be the responsability of Arab countries

"This is not about Right of Retrurn to there homeland, this is about people who left home, due to a war that was started by the people who know host them and for 50 years they lived without rights and citizenships in those countrys. I gurantee you!! "

yes, they left home in a war, and people who left their home during a war are refugees who have the right of return, read the geneva-conventions. by the way some people were really evicted from their houses by the idf;



"Terrorism is not cause by war and occupation. Terrorism is caused by peace. Terrorism against israel, directly at Israeli Civilians started in 1994. Nothing happened between 1982-1987..and in 1987 most were inside the West bank, and it wasn't much.... Terrorism started because the peace processs started? why is that? it is because the people who commit the terrorism are the same people who object to peace with Israel. Its not a matter of time or a matter of delay in Peace."

what about the first intifadeh?
i think the methods used in that intifadeh are better than attacking civilians, which is carried out by a minority of palestinians who want to sabotage all peace with israel. they only have the support of a quarter of the palestinians, or less. (poll posted by cerulean)


"And it doesn't mean that its because of settelement or delay or peace or net fairness...These people started to be against it. And in so forth are not arguing for the stop of occupation, but vice-versa; which they want MORE OCCUPATION and MORE CONTROL BY THE IDF so they can stop."

this method was used by sharon and only caused much more violence instead of less.
during the peace-period and neociations violence against israel was much less than today, guess why;

"Why didn't they bomb a bus in 1992 in Israel?? it is because they didn't have the autonomy to hide a bomb factory in Nablus or Jenin and have Israel find it in 2 seconds. When we have them Autonomy, they used it to get extremism powerful! And now when they want to reform you are awarding these islamic criminals with a job at the Cabinet of the PA! How dare you, shall i say! "

suicide-bombers even came from hebron when this city was still controlled by israel!
people like hamas can only enter in the pa-cabinet if they agree to recognise israel. there is little chance they will ever.


"Build them new houses??? Forget it!! Im not building them new houses? How come this peace agreement is in the mixture of building new houses and compensating just one side. We both been in tragedys and we both suffered alot, on eighter side, and yet this peace process is for a state not to compensate one another. If they want, we'll build them a house in Jordan which is not that full (unlike) israel, instead of in Israel!!!!!! So get it threw you thick head!"

not one side, both sides.
Jordan is very full too, unlike israel jordan i almost 100% desert.
according to your logic too many people live in belgium, so they have the right to send for example the walloons to France?
in the modern world after WWII, such logic is no longer possible.
if israel is so full, why did they accept nearly a million of russian people who have, unlike the palestinians, no link with the land.

I think your ignorance makes it impossible to have a normal discussion with you.

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic
Oh, Elke, please. I don't want to put you on my ignore list for making the BS visible to me by quoting it ;)

Sorry! :( I won't do it anymore... :)

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo

I think your ignorance makes it impossible to have a normal discussion with you.

LOL!

There might be some slight disagreements as to who the ignorant parties are, however. Elke, thanks for your personal and historical accounts of the Soviet Union.

Without mentioning anyone in particular, here are some things I have noticed from propagandistic posters on various forums over the past nine years:

A typical propagandistic poster engages in the following:

* Continuous repetition. The propagandistic poster seems inexhaustible. No point is too minor to be repeated ad infinitum. If cogent rebuttals are made, just continue to repeat.

* Ignores valid points made by other posters. Cover up this ignoring by posting huge volumes (see #1) that appear to respond to the points but do not.

* Argues by anecdote. The propagandistic poster has an inexhaustible supply of anecdotes that always serve to prove his or her point. An inconvenient statistic or historical fact is argued away by referring to one of these anecdotes.

* Makes up "facts." This is hard to distinguish from making simple errors, which everyone does from time to time. However, a continuing pattern over months and years distinguishes the propagandistic poster from a regular poster in this respect.

* Continuous repetition!

[Mediocrates]

Stop me if you've heard this one - - -

A Palestinian goes into a bar - :)



---And blows up 47 innocent people.



---And then when the ambulances come ---



---his buddy shoots the medical workers to death.

[Mediocrates]

"Originally posted by takeo" - Trollito ergo sum. (I troll therefore I am)

[takeo]

yes, vic that's the way to have an intellectual discussion, ignore everything that is not according to your own values and views.
but in the case of lomplighter, a factual discussion without insults is impossible so it doesn't make much difference.



"You never heard of the ''trials of the Jewish doctors"? You never heard of the Osip Mandelshtam? Fancy using Hitler's accusations as "proof" of lack of anti-semitism in Russia. This is just too rich! "

yes i have heard of it, but were those people accused because they were Jewish? if so, why other Jews with high positions weren't persecuted for the same reason?

"Bull****. The heavy persecution of Jewish minority far from ceased. (...) It was also known as the words initiating the pogroms after 1917 as well. That's my point. "

ok, tell me where and when under soviet-rule pogroms against Jewish people occured...


"I don't know what else to tell you. I can see that I was right: it's impossible to convince you of anything different than what you believe, even though your knowledge is at best, spotty. "

it's impossible to convince me of what you said because i heard different stories from other Jewish Russians who still live in Russia or the Ukrain or lived a long period in the Soviet-Union.

"I don't know what it's like to grow up where you are the same as everyone else, so I can't understand where you are coming from. You, on the other hand, seem to have felt no difference between yourself and the others, so you can't understand how I think. "

i only referred to the cases i know, heard and read about.
i was deeply impressed by some things you wrote, so you can convince me of some things, that the degree of anti-semitism was probably worse than i assumed, based on the experiences of my family.

"There is no question that there were some significant improvements overall since the Communists came to power. The most glaring one is the general literacy of the population. However, as far as the Jews were concerned, improvements were relatively minor. The quotas in the educational institutions were officially abolished, but remained unofficially. While the official impediments to living in larger cities in Russia proper disappeared, the "propiska" system effectively kept many out of the larger cities."

this system during soviet times was not only for Jews but for all the population, to avoid rapid overpopulation in the large cities.

"There were many Jews in the Socialist and Communist movements in Russia. There is talk that Lenin himself was part-Jewish. The reason they got involved was that they were HOPING that when there is no more class struggle, and religion is not an issue, that Jews will finally become "one of us". These sentiments are understandable, but these people turned out to be wrong."

not completely wrong, even in the jewish virtual library is stated that the communist rule improved to lifes of most Russian Jews significantly;
yes anti-semitism didn't disappear, and even some government actions can be considered anti-semitic, as in the early 50's, but let's not forget that the soviet heroic war against fascism saved the lifes of millions of jews, and that for the first time in Russian history jews became (at least officially) equal citizens wich could reach high positions;
some famous jewish people as Eisenstein, zinoviev, Yakov Sverdlov who gave his name to this beautiful city in the Urals, have continued to serve and believe in the soviet-system.

[takeo]

"A typical propagandistic poster engages in the following: "



"* Continuous repetition. The propagandistic poster seems inexhaustible. No point is too minor to be repeated ad infinitum. If cogent rebuttals are made, just continue to repeat. "

yes, that's right, whatever the discussion and occasion, it will be repeated that all "Arabs" are children-murderers and terrorists;

*" Ignores valid points made by other posters. Cover up this ignoring by posting huge volumes (see #1) that appear to respond to the points but do not. "

that's right too, if i start about the fact that camp david was a take it or leace it proposal, as an example, it will be covered up by "Arab violence that appeared since 2000".
if i post statistics prooving israel was predominantly inhabited by palestinians before 1948, or geneva-conventions, people start about other topics.


"* Argues by anecdote. The propagandistic poster has an inexhaustible supply of anecdotes that always serve to prove his or her point. An inconvenient statistic or historical fact is argued away by referring to one of these anecdotes. "

that's right too, such as the fact that some french diplomat once said in private "israel is a little ****ty country" is enough to blast away any factual discussion about anti-semitism in france.

* "Makes up "facts." This is hard to distinguish from making simple errors, which everyone does from time to time. However, a continuing pattern over months and years distinguishes the propagandistic poster from a regular poster in this respect. "

that's right too, such as "Arabs started the war in 1967"

* "Continuous repetition!"

indeed, terrorism, terrorism, terrorism, how many times that word was repeated on this forum...

nice analysis cerulean

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Vic

Just done the same - for a while, at least. The pages have become much shorter :)

Btw, is "Arab" generally accepted as a pejorative term in modern American usage?

No! I meant it literarily!