Israel at the bottom of helping the unemployed

[sharonbn]

A research that was conducted at the Hebrew University reveals that Israel is placed at 8th position at out nine countries in terms of the help it offers to the unemployed.

The research was conducted by Dr. Johnnie Gal of the welfare and social work school at the University. The research compared social security plans and unemployment payments in nine countries at two points of time: in 1983 and 2003.

Here are the results:

1983
1) Denmark
2) Spain
3) Germany
4) Sweden
5) France
6) Israel
7) USA
8) UK
9) Greece

2003
1) Denmark
2) France
3) Spain
4) Germany
5) Sweden
6) USA
7) Greece
8) Israel
9) UK

According to Israeli social security plans, only 25% of unemployed are eligible for unemployment payments for terms between 50 and 175 days. unemployment payments are given only if you worked for a whole year prior to work termination. A limit is set on number of times a person can receive payments over a four year period and some of the unemployed are eligible for payments that amount to only 30% of their last salary.

Dr. Gal says: "Social security for unemployment was adopted in Israel in 1972. Since then, it has undergone changes more frequently than any other social security plan in Israel. It seems the current plans of recent years do not ensure dignified living conditions for the unemployed while they seek new employment."

* translated from Ynet.

[Mediocrates]

So if benefits are so poor why is it Israel also ranks near the bottom in participation in the workforce as a ratio of the total eligible population?

[KettleWhistle]

So if benefits are so poor why is it Israel also ranks near the bottom in participation in the workforce as a ratio of the total eligible population?

The question should be how Israeli Jews rank in participation in the workforce. But otherwise, these are unrelated questions. The assumption that people are unemployed because they don't want to work is just nonsense.

[I am David]

But how do you know if it's nonsense or not? I don't see how you could, unless you can point to some credible study that listed what percentages of the population were capable of working (physically, mentally) but didn't while on wellfare.

And this is definitely the defining issue when determining if wellfare benifits should be increased or decreased. So it is very important to know what you're talking about here. Also, regardless a more accurate, fair, and economical system of determining who should be on wellfare needs to be implemented.

[Justcurious]

The question should be how Israeli Jews rank in participation in the workforce. But otherwise, these are unrelated questions. The assumption that people are unemployed because they don't want to work is just nonsense.

Besides, the unemployment rate is not that bad. Only 10.7 % last year.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=is&v=74

[KettleWhistle]

But how do you know if it's nonsense or not? I don't see how you could, unless you can point to some credible study that listed what percentages of the population were capable of working (physically, mentally) but didn't while on wellfare.

There is more to it than being capable. A person can be capable, but not be offered a job. I was capable to do what I do for two years before I got my job. For all these two years I was sending out resumes all over, and when I finally got an interview, I was hired on the spot. And my story is not unique. Granted, I wasn't collecting unemployment or welfare, and of course I described myself as a "self-employed consultant," rather than "unemployed," but there are many people who can't afford to take years to look for jobs. And that's whom the welfare is for.

The idea that welfare that allows people to make ends meet while they are in a bad situation causes them to stop seeking jobs is nonsense. I am not saying that abuse of welfare doesn't occur, but cutting welfare will not get these peope hired. More likely it will result in more people being hungry, lacking healthcare, becoming homeless, and otherwise having less opportunities at getting employed.

[Luke90]

The assumption that people are unemployed because they don't want to work is just nonsense.
Not entirely. To try and pin that on all unemployed people would be unfair but there are certainly a large number (at least in Britain) that just choose to live off benefits instead of getting a job. I've seen people interviewed and admitting on camera that they make that choice. Sometimes it's a matter of pride that people refuse to take more menial jobs than they want to do or used to do. For example, in the old Welsh mining towns there is huge unemployment, but the bus companies are having to recruit drivers from miles away because none of the unemployed want jobs as bus drivers.

[sharonbn]

The idea that welfare that allows people to make ends meet while they are in a bad situation causes them to stop seeking jobs is nonsense. I am not saying that abuse of welfare doesn't occur, but cutting welfare will not get these peope hired. More likely it will result in more people being hungry, lacking healthcare, becoming homeless, and otherwise having less opportunities at getting employed.
hear hear!

[Luke90]

I don't think cutting welfare would be the way to go, but perhaps you could place tighter conditions on it to make sure people are actively and seriously seeking work and also assist them in getting a job.

[KettleWhistle]

Not entirely. To try and pin that on all unemployed people would be unfair but there are certainly a large number (at least in Britain) that just choose to live off benefits instead of getting a job. I've seen people interviewed and admitting on camera that they make that choice. Sometimes it's a matter of pride that people refuse to take more menial jobs than they want to do or used to do. For example, in the old Welsh mining towns there is huge unemployment, but the bus companies are having to recruit drivers from miles away because none of the unemployed want jobs as bus drivers.

I don't know anything about the employment situation in Wales or about the British welfare system, so I can't really comment about that. And this issue is also very multi-faceted, as it involves not only individual motivation, but also the type of aid offered, and the accessiblity, the availability and feasability of alternatives, and also sociological factors. From what I know of Israel, both from personal experiences and from several classes on Israeli culture and sociology that I had several years ago, among Israeli Jews there is little abuse of the system. Mostly the problem rests with availability of jobs.

[I am David]

Abuse of the welfare system does occur (in all countries). The only question obviously is how much. "Abuse" is not constituted by someone who simply cannot get a job. Abuse is when someone does not look for a job, whether there is one or not.

So, simply saying that Israel ranks low on help for the "unemployed" IS NOT enough information to say that Israel does not give out enough welfare. You have to take into account how many people its helping that really need help. Untill we know that, and some other things, we can't really say much.

[Mediocrates]

So again, if benefits are world class low then why is it that workforce participation is also world class low. What you are implying is that there is no difference in Israel between working and not working anyway. You're just quibbling about how high or low that bar is set.

[KettleWhistle]

Are you trying to imply that they aren't realy low because there are so many people unfortunate enough to use them? Sorry, but I don't see a connection.

[Roland]

Unemployment is rising here. Social security for unemployed is melting fast.
Some people watch the numbers and compare the rate with what helped the nazis come to power. It is getting close - and the saxonian parlament already has elected NPD-members - the NPD (neonazi mothf__ers) just narrowly got around illegalizement recently.

[Mediocrates]

Are you trying to imply that they aren't realy low because there are so many people unfortunate enough to use them? Sorry, but I don't see a connection.


Again, then, what is the correlation? If benefits are very good people tend to stay off the job roles. If benefits are very poor then there is no incentive to stay on the dole. Somewhere in the middle people make their own decisions about how much to work and how much not to work. In Europe for example benefits tend to be quite rich compared to the US so there is an incentive to not work very hard to get back in the job pool. This is what we call structural unemployment. Similarly Israel has comparitively good not poor benefits and this is in part what causes lower job role participation as well as relatively high ratios of guest and illegal workers into the country. When the intifada closed the labor borders for 160,000 Palestinians, Israel, instead of getting 160,000 Israelis put to work, which would have made sense, imported cheap labor from Africa and Asia. You can guess that when they are finished giving up large parts of their country they will also asceed to permitting huge numbers of Palestinians back in for cheap labor, displacing all the guest workers they already have. Israelis will still not be working in the numbers they could be and 10-12% will be the structural unemployment in Israel. The costs of that are enormous by the way.

If benefits really were so poor then people would actually not have a choice and would be compelled to work at low wage jobs, many of which are laying around filled by guest workers. As an experiment someone should look at the market in security guards who are being tossed out of work in high numbers right now with a moderate cessation of violence. What will happen to them? Will they find work? Will they stay home? Will they emmigrate?

[Luke90]

When the intifada closed the labor borders for 160,000 Palestinians, Israel, instead of getting 160,000 Israelis put to work, which would have made sense, imported cheap labor from Africa and Asia.
That could be another symptom of the fact that immigrants will often do jobs that others simply aren't willing to do.

[Mediocrates]

Yes we've heard that for years and it's a self fullfilling prophesy. It speaks to the heart of why people work and why they don't. I hear this all the time from Russians who come here and tell me they were engineers and doctors in Russia.


OK, study, get your certification, go back to school and be a doctor here. Until then remember to slice that sub BEFORE you wrap it, Igor, not after.

I'm sorry but I have near zero empathy for that. There are millions of Americans with prison records who CAN'T get jobs and would take a $9/hr job if someone let them and yet there are millions more whining that it's not good enough for them. Well screw them.

[Luke90]

I hear this all the time from Russians who come here and tell me they were engineers and doctors in Russia.
You seem to have misunderstood me.
I was saying that many immigrants are willing to do menial jobs.


There are millions of Americans with prison records who CAN'T get jobs and would take a $9/hr job if someone let them
If they got a prison record that's their fault.

[KettleWhistle]

Yes we've heard that for years and it's a self fullfilling prophesy. It speaks to the heart of why people work and why they don't. I hear this all the time from Russians who come here and tell me they were engineers and doctors in Russia.


OK, study, get your certification, go back to school and be a doctor here. Until then remember to slice that sub BEFORE you wrap it, Igor, not after.

I'm sorry but I have near zero empathy for that. There are millions of Americans with prison records who CAN'T get jobs and would take a $9/hr job if someone let them and yet there are millions more whining that it's not good enough for them. Well screw them.

You think that it's that easy? No it isn't. It isn't just a matter of studying and getting a certificate. In reality, you can be as certified and experienced as any, and noone would give you a time of the day just because you haven't graduated from the right school. Age also factors in. And that's where the Jewish community should come in to help people land these jobs, and for the large part such assistance from the American Jewish community is all but absent. I don't know about you, Medio, but if a relative of mine lost a job, or couldn't find one, I would've helped, not tell them to go and clean my toilet. Unless you treat your relatives in this manner, I don't know how you can justify treating other Jews like that.

[Mediocrates]

If they got a prison record that's their fault.


That's pretty much BS and you know it and probably the most unchristian thing you could say. Smoke a joint: be unemployable for life. Yeah there's the milk of human kindness.

[Luke90]

That's pretty much BS and you know it and probably the most unchristian thing you could say. Smoke a joint: be unemployable for life. Yeah there's the milk of human kindness.
Of course it depends what they're imprisoned for but surely there aren't that many people that get sent to prison just for smoking weed.

[Mediocrates]

You think that it's that easy? No it isn't. It isn't just a matter of studying and getting a certificate. In reality, you can be as certified and experienced as any, and noone would give you a time of the day just because you haven't graduated from the right school. Age also factors in. And that's where the Jewish community should come in to help people land these jobs, and for the large part such assistance from the American Jewish community is all but absent. I don't know about you, Medio, but if a relative of mine lost a job, or couldn't find one, I would've helped, not tell them to go and clean my toilet. Unless you treat your relatives in this manner, I don't know how you can justify treating other Jews like that.


Oh please. You're an immigrant, you live the immigrant experience. You help where you can but to think that you can transplant your life, your career and your lifestyle from there to here in one generation is wrongheaded. It simply not realistic. Yes JFS doesn't do a great job, or maybe a very even job. But them's the breaks.

And in medicine it's actually very openended because half of American doctors, seemingly went to school in Mexico and the other doctors in America are foreign students. It's not pretty but its' not impossible. I grew up with Korean greengrocers who left middle class jobs in Korea to work 18 hrs a day in the US selling kale and cabbages. Give me a hundred thousand men and women like that I can build you a whole country.

BTW on any particular day I have one relative or non relative living with me either because they lost their job, got into financial problems or wound up married to a wifebeater. Help means you help that person get back on their legs. You don't hold their hand and tell them its ok to feel sorry for themselves.

And yes I am very unsympathetic to people in my own field who piss and moan about being outsourced to India. It's not a outsourcing problem or an lillegal alien problem it's an education problem. For 2000 years all we had going for us was our brains and eagerness. So get cracking or someone will kick your butt.

[KettleWhistle]

JFS and individual Jewish communities do not much at all. The whole "immigrant experience" is nonsense btw. People come here to adapt and live like everyone else, not to adapt and live like second-class citizens, and you are not going to convince me that it is ok. It simply isn't. I am not saying that someone needs to hold their hand and help them feel sorry for themself. We are supposed to have a community to help each other. When one of ours falls we are supposed to pick them up and help them get back on their feet, not stand around and tell them that, well, that's just how it is when you fall. The so-called "help" that the Jewish communities provide to immigrants is akin to throwing a penny at the person who's down, and walking away proud at yourself for having done such a mitzvah. Frankly, that's inexcusable. If you want to claim that you help anybody to do more than feel sorry for themselves, when perhaps you can tell us how many people have the Jewish organizations in America put into good jobs? How many Jewish kids did the Jewish community help to get into schools so that they can have good careers? I tend to think that the answer is pretty close to zero, which is exacly why our community is so weak and disintegrated.


Oh please. You're an immigrant, you live the immigrant experience. You help where you can but to think that you can transplant your life, your career and your lifestyle from there to here in one generation is wrongheaded. It simply not realistic. Yes JFS doesn't do a great job, or maybe a very even job. But them's the breaks.

And in medicine it's actually very openended because half of American doctors, seemingly went to school in Mexico and the other doctors in America are foreign students. It's not pretty but its' not impossible. I grew up with Korean greengrocers who left middle class jobs in Korea to work 18 hrs a day in the US selling kale and cabbages. Give me a hundred thousand men and women like that I can build you a whole country.

BTW on any particular day I have one relative or non relative living with me either because they lost their job, got into financial problems or wound up married to a wifebeater. Help means you help that person get back on their legs. You don't hold their hand and tell them its ok to feel sorry for themselves.

And yes I am very unsympathetic to people in my own field who piss and moan about being outsourced to India. It's not a outsourcing problem or an lillegal alien problem it's an education problem. For 2000 years all we had going for us was our brains and eagerness. So get cracking or someone will kick your butt.

[minusthejihad]

My mother is one of those immigrant doctors who came here and had to relearn everything she practiced in the FSU. Her best friend took the test 3 or 4 times and could not pass, she has been working as a manicurist for the last 20 some years. She's had a great life, but I'm sure she would have wanted to succeed as a doctor here as well. Otherwise she is very happy with her immigrant experience.

My father worked 3 or 4 menial labor jobs when we moved here only so that my mom could go back to college. I didn't see either of them from 4 years old to 8 or 9 years old, so much so that I used to call my older sister "mom". Do I or they regret it? no. For the last 20 years my mother has made more money than my father and has been voted to the board of directors in the hospitals or clinics she's worked unanimously. You could write a book about our experience, and some day I may.

[KettleWhistle]

Yours is a success story, but not everyone is that lucky.

My point though, is that we have a communal responsibility to help each other, and what Mediocrates proposes is not help. The idea that immigrants have to suffer and it's ok for them to be an underclass is quite frankly obscene.

[minusthejihad]

JFS and individual Jewish communities do not much at all. The whole "immigrant experience" is nonsense btw. People come here to adapt and live like everyone else, not to adapt and live like second-class citizens, and you are not going to convince me that it is ok. It simply isn't. I am not saying that someone needs to hold their hand and help them feel sorry for themself. We are supposed to have a community to help each other. When one of ours falls we are supposed to pick them up and help them get back on their feet, not stand around and tell them that, well, that's just how it is when you fall. The so-called "help" that the Jewish communities provide to immigrants is akin to throwing a penny at the person who's down, and walking away proud at yourself for having done such a mitzvah. Frankly, that's inexcusable. If you want to claim that you help anybody to do more than feel sorry for themselves, when perhaps you can tell us how many people have the Jewish organizations in America put into good jobs? How many Jewish kids did the Jewish community help to get into schools so that they can have good careers? I tend to think that the answer is pretty close to zero, which is exacly why our community is so weak and disintegrated.

Hey, watch it. My sister works as a social worker for the JFS in Detroit and I used to work for them when I was younger. A majority of the people who work there are immigrants like us who understand first hand how hoard the process is. I have personally seen many success stories just through her group and I believe locally, ours does many Mitzvahs. However, it doesn't stop there, in my small Russian Jewish community, we never forget about "our own" and do what we can to help. We don't throw things away that are in decent shape and can be reused bu a recently migrated family. I have personally helped deliver furniture from rich American Jews and my family to new immigrants.

Next year, I will be bringing my cousin here from Israel for a year or two. He has just got done serving in the IDF (Gaza) and is finishing up his college degree. We want him to experience a relaxed American lifestyle for a couple years. I know this is OT, but I had to throw it in.

But seriously, my family is forever grateful to organizations like JFS, HIAS, and the hundreds if not thousands of American Jews that helped us achieve our American Dream. You can say that there is always more to do and better ways to do it, but don't say "they don't do much at all"!

[KettleWhistle]

That was not my experience. When my family came to Indianapolis, the only thing we got from the local Jewish community were six driving lessons for each adult family member. Otherwise, American Jews were generally snobbing at us, "those Russians," as they called us. They did, however have thrift sales or old closes, most of which was just trash that nobody in their right mind would wear. Otherwise we got some help from a local church that was giving food to people at need, and many FSU Jews were going to a Hispanic Community Center for ESL classes.

[Mediocrates]

Yours is a success story, but not everyone is that lucky.

My point though, is that we have a communal responsibility to help each other, and what Mediocrates proposes is not help. The idea that immigrants have to suffer and it's ok for them to be an underclass is quite frankly obscene.


Call the Chabad, they'll help you.

[KettleWhistle]

Call the Chabad, they'll help you.

Sell my soul to the Devil? No, thanks.:D

[goliath]

QUOTE=
KettleWhistleSell my soul to the Devil? No, thanks.:
I've sold mine , it's ok till now , ( Faust's Opera is not real life !).
Recently I called a Rabbe , (the great one) , asking for a MD specialist in ..) He answered me : I don't see MD ,when I feel unwell I just pray , and asking for my Hebrew 's name he said : I will tell a prayer for you.
It's not a joke!.

[KettleWhistle]

I've sold mine , it's ok till now , ( Faust's Opera is not real life !).
Recently I called a Rabbe , (the great one) , asking for a MD specialist in ..) He answered me : I don't see MD ,when I feel unwell I just pray , and asking for my Hebrew 's name he said : I will tell a prayer for you.
It's not a joke!.

I don't know much about what prayer does for people, but I do know what good jobs, education, and communal support do. That's why I helped a number of people get jobs. Several of my friends work in academia, and very likely some of them will be on admission commitees at the colleges and universities where they work. Something tells me that once that happens not many Russian-speaking Jews will be turned away because their English is accented. So let Rabbis pray, I don't mind. I just prefer to REALLY help people from my community. It's just too bad that too many American Jews could be providing real and meanigful help instead of praying, but they don't.

[Mediocrates]

Well if you cut through that fog of yours you might see the real help the Orthodox communities give and do for the wider American and Newly American Jewish diaspora. In the mean time the big machers in NY and LA have charity auctions to send $400 million dollars a year to Israel and not to Jewish communities here. And those communities here are suffering because of your Maximum Leader who slashed funding left and right to nonprofit groups.

[KettleWhistle]

I appreciate what the Orthodox do for Israel, albeit I do believe that they do it for all the wrong reasons. But as far as Newly-American Diaspora, I really don't know what it is they do. Pray for them? Try to enroll them in their synagogues? Give them free passes to Pesah Seders? Pass on second-hand clothes? Sorry, but none of the above can get people on their feet and into their proper place within society.

[Mediocrates]

Well I know what we do, your mileage may vary:

collections for medical bills
bought furniture for people
enrolled their kids in school for free
give them cars
give them food
setup a network of contacts for employment
offer intervention and counselling in cases of domestic violence
run the Jewish burial society

[KettleWhistle]

setup a network of contacts for employment

Shouldn't this be enough if it actually works and gets people employed? And I don't mean employed to work the freedom fry frier.

[Mediocrates]

Work comes in many forms. If you Engleesh not so good you got job not so good too, da? I no fill out employment form so good you go to back of line, nyet?

And let's not put too fine a point on it - we live in a survelliance society now. Everyone must show zee paperz. Everyone gets background checked and if your search comes up blank as in "I shusht ccame her from ze Rodina I haf no past, jes?" that's as bad as having a criminal record and employers run from you.

[KettleWhistle]

"I shusht ccame her from ze Rodina I haf no past, jes?" that's as bad as having a criminal record and employers run from you.

And that's where the community needs to step in and help out, no?

As for "Rodina," ours is Israel, not Russia.

[I am David]

What do you expect them to do if they don't have any jobs to offer, or the people aren't qualified?

[KettleWhistle]

I'm not talking about that situation--this is what welfare is for. I'm talking about people who are well-qualified, but don't have a track record in the U.S., or don't have refferences, or don't know how to get their certifications aquired in foreign countries accredited in the U.S. This is where the local community can really help by addressing those issues.