Three indictments against members of the Jewish underground

[sharonbn]

Three indictments against members of the Jewish underground

This morning, Tuesday May 28th, Jerusalem district attorney submitted to the court three indictments against members of the Jewish underground: Yarden Morag (25), Shlomo Dvir (27) and Ofer Gamliel (22), all residents of Bat-Ain settlement. The indictments include attempted murder and unlawful possession of firearms and are in connection to the attempted bombing of a girl school in the Arab neighborhood A-Tur in eastern Jerusalem. The maximum penalty for attempted murder under Israeli law is 20 years imprisonment.

According to the charge, the accused, together with Yossef Ben-Baruch (who will be indicted tomorrow) have been planning the terror attack Since February 2002. Their intention was to cause massive casualties among the Arab population in retaliation for the Palestinian terror attacks. Ben-Baruch is considered the “brain” behind the planned attack. The group observed several places before choosing the girl-school and gathered intelligence information prior to placing the bomb. The school was picked by Ben-Baruch because of its proximity to Mookassed hospital and a taxi station.

During the month of April, the four prepared a bomb from materials gathered previously and placed it in an enclosed case that can be towed by car. The bomb was constructed out of two 250 gram TNT explosive bricks, a detonator made of high explosive and an electronic stop watch. Ben-Baruch constructed the bomb and made the connections between the explosives and the timing device. On the towed-case were also placed two gas containers, two benzene containers and several kilos of steel nails.

On April 29th, the four attached the case to Morag’s security vehicle used by him in his position as Bat-Ain’s security officer. The case was placed near the school’s entrance at 3:30 AM. The explosion was set to 7:30 AM – the time of arrival of the girl pupils. The school houses some 1,300 pupils in the first six grades.

The four were arrested after a police car accidentally arrived at the scene at the time the timing device was set.

The witnesses for the prosecution include residents of Bat-Ain and Morag’s mother, Dahlia who commented: “I cannot say that he did nothing. We’ll all have to wait to the end of the trial. I have no problem with the fact that Yarden cooperated in the interrogations” (it was rumored that Yarden Morag will become state-witness.)

Etty Dvir, wife of Shlomo Dvir, commented: “ This is all a sham. After being interrogated by the shabak, anyone will confess with whatever being charged.”

* Translated from a Ynet article by Efrat Weiss.

[elke]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Three indictments against members of the Jewish underground...


Negotiations can begin when Hamas, etal, become "Palestinian underground" and indictments are issued by the Palestinian courts of law against their members.

[Vic]

Any personal opinion on the affair, sharonbn?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Vic
Any personal opinion on the affair, sharonbn?

I feel very bad about this.
Although there are differences between situations of Jewish and Palestinian terrorist attacks (specifically about the support they get from the general population), there is no real difference between the people themselves - they are both scum.

I, as a leftie Jewish Israeli, consider my people to be morally superior to the Palestinians. The Jewish terrorists tarnish the moral foundations and history of the whole Jewish nation.
If they are found guilty, they should be put behind bars for the maximum period.

this is regardless of what the Palestinians do with their terrorists.

[cerulean]

Thanks for the translations sharonbn.

I'm glad Israel is taking a firm stand with these terrorists, even if internal.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by cerulean
Thanks for the translations sharonbn.

I'm glad Israel is taking a firm stand with these terrorists, even if internal.



Here in the US we have this seemingly irrational debate about cloning and reproductive research with the screeds from the far right carping about this that and the other. But if you force someone to debate the issue without using the phrases "God's Will" or "Family Values" you'd find that there isn't any definable rationale that makes any coherent sense to bar such research. It comes down to the religious values you learned as a child.

OK, so with settlements and with appropriate responses to terrorism I want to hear the rationale that doesn't hinge on the phrases "Higher Moral Ground", "Fairness", "Surrendering to the Peace Process", "Historical Perspective".

Here's my point - Why take the higher ground if you have to suffer for it? Why bother? Israelis are only occupying one place on earth; it's called Israel. That they're willing to barter their country, their homeland for the faint promise of something akin to non-escalation of the current massacres and murder and bloodshed is completely different from the rationale of whether they are entitled to be there or not. If they leave it is not about entitlement it is about expedience, compromise, defeat, surrender and fear. Make no mistake about it - the 'settlements issue' is not about land for peace. It's about the ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories. A West Bank and Gaza absent of Jews and whether they happen to be Israeli nationals or not is utterly unimportant and besides the point. Because clearly the PLO would have its own people live in squalor and misery forever if it meant that they had no Jewish neighbors.

Welcome to Czechoslovakiaistan, the year is 1937.

[cerulean]

I agree that Israel is in similarly grave danger to Czechoslovakia in 1937.

I think freelance terrorist actions on the part of private citizens will not help, though.

There's certainly good arguments that can be made for well-considered aggressive governmental actions, however.

[L@mplighterM]

If I can't say anything nice I wont say anything at all.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Vic
Any personal opinion on the affair


Well its nice to see that someone who either threatened or attempted to blow up some civilians gets a harsher punishment than the PLO gunmen who get to bask in the hot Cypriot sun, go on a shopping spree in Europe and eventually return to the scene of their crimes.

[Vic]

Originally posted by sharonbn

I, as a leftie Jewish Israeli, consider my people to be morally superior to the Palestinians.
Do you mean as a (for practical purposes unachievable) goal or as a given fact? Hardly the latter, if I remember a posting of yours on "being an Israeli" correctly ;)

It offers opportunity for interesting comparisons, though. Were someone in France, for example, claim (no matter with what intention) that ethnic Frenchmen are morally superior to French citizens of Arab descent, he'd be quickly decried as a racist, colonialist etc. This sort of condescension isn't viewed kindly in my part of the world.

And, NP, but judging from what I've seen of Muslim immigrant communities, their members do tend to offer considerable support to each other.


Btw. - is there any serious reason to doubt the accusations?

[Mediocrates]

The only good of the higher ground is to give yourself a place from which to shoot down onto your enemies.

[L@mplighterM]

You have two peoples with opposite philosophical ways of life living side by side. One civilization has laws that condemn terrorism and the other praises it.

One civilization convicts terrorists based on its laws whereas the other civilization only convicts and executes persons that aids or abets the former.

It doesn’t take much logic to figure which civilization will survive.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Well its nice to see that someone who either threatened or attempted to blow up some civilians gets a harsher punishment than the PLO gunmen who get to bask in the hot Cypriot sun, go on a shopping spree in Europe and eventually return to the scene of their crimes.

I agree that this aspect of the case is inexcusable. Attempted terrorists should not be treated more harshly than actual, murderous, pillaging, and raping terrorists (all crimes alleged to have been committed by the "militants" in the Church of the Nativity).

By releasing the terrorists at large, not only Israel but the entire world has been put at risk to appease I'm not sure whom - well I guess the Vatican, the State Department, and the EU.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by cerulean


I agree that this aspect of the case is inexcusable. Attempted terrorists should not be treated more harshly than actual, murderous, pillaging, and raping terrorists (all crimes alleged to have been committed by the "militants" in the Church of the Nativity).

By releasing the terrorists at large, not only Israel but the entire world has been put at risk to appease I'm not sure whom - well I guess the Vatican, the State Department, and the EU.

But then I thought - why not, let's send all the 'militants' to Europe. With any luck they'll blow up a bodega or a train station or try to take some embassy hostage. Then it will be a REAL problem. Let them train FALN and Basques and the IRA and Macedonians.... I mean they're just peaceful peaceloving peoples of peace taking legitimate action against an oppressive colonial power......

[Vic]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
[...] than the PLO gunmen who get to bask in the hot Cypriot sun, go on a shopping spree in Europe and eventually return to the scene of their crimes.
Isn't preventing the latter from happening what Israel has security services for? People on shopping sprees in Europe aren't all too safe, you know... Or do I get something wrong here?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Vic
Do you mean as a (for practical purposes unachievable) goal or as a given fact? Hardly the latter, if I remember a posting of yours on "being an Israeli" correctly ;)

I didn't say Israelis are perfect or saints. However, what I wrote on the post you mentioned
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=5525#post5525
cannot be compared to a society that praises suicide bombers, calls them martyrs and send their youngsters to the front line. In fact, I believe what I wrote can be said about the load ugly American abroad, the xenophobic French, the woman-harraser Italian, etc etc. There is an ugly side to all of us.

Try, Vic, to see the very fine differences between the case of the Jewish underground and Palestinian terrorists in terms of the size of the phenomenon and support of the general population.


Originally posted by Vic
It offers opportunity for interesting comparisons, though. Were someone in France, for example, claim (no matter with what intention) that ethnic Frenchmen are morally superior to French citizens of Arab descent, he'd be quickly decried as a racist, colonialist etc. This sort of condescension isn't viewed kindly in my part of the world.
I really really think that these days, France, Holland, Belgium... with the rise of fascist extreme right are hardly a good example for pluralism and tolerance.


Originally posted by Vic
Btw. - is there any serious reason to doubt the accusations?
Unlike the Palestinian judicial system. in Isael a man is considered innocent until the court decides otherwise. The members of the Jewish underground have only been charged, not trailed.

[Vic]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

(Well, I did try to think up a serious reply, but it proved near to impossible. I've heard a lot of queer accusations in my lifetime, but yours are quite new to me. NP, but maybe you'll read my posting over again?)

[sharonbn]

OK, we'll take it slowly:

I re-read your post (all of it is inside mine, btw). This is what I understood:

1. You accuse me of hypocracy. Something like "You say you are better than the Arabs, but according to the "being an Israeli" (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=5525#post5525) post, you're just as bad".

2. You also accuse me of racism, for labeling the Arabs as inferior to Jews.

My reply was:

1. My "being an Israeli" (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=5525#post5525) post, did state several flaws in the Israeli character. That's a long way from making suicide bombers martyrs and sending 13 y.o. to fight the soldiers. I also hinted that a similar letter can be written about other ethnic groups.

I did attempt to provoke some thinking on your part by asking:
"Try, Vic, to see the very fine differences between the case of the Jewish underground and Palestinian terrorists in terms of the size of the phenomenon and support of the general population."

2. as to the racism accusation. I actually agree with you on that. I admit to making generalisation of the Arab character. I admit its an emotional flaw on my otherwise rational line of thinking. I can't help it - I strongly believe that Jews have a more humane compasionate attitude towards their fellow man than the Arabs.
However, again, I stated that IMO, these emotions are by ni means exclusive to Israelis. recent events in Europe (I'm talking about rise of extreme right, OK?) have shown that racist-nationalist feelings are flourishing in the hearts of the French, Belgian, Austrian.

Is it "queer" to compare Israeli racism towards Palestinians and European racism towards minorities living in Europe?

EU have no right to criticise Israel (or anyone else for that matter) until they take a long look in the mirror.

Is that clear enough?

[elke]

What about the Palestinian racism agains Jews - and Americans?

Actually, the most offensive, racist statement I have heard on TV in recent years, came from an interview with a Palestinian girl, about 15-16 years old, who lives in Brooklyn, NY. She stated unequivocally that she "hates all Jews" because they "always take everything away from us, here and in Palestine".

She seemed so rabid, that I think the correspondent was afraid that she would bite him.