Difficulties of collaborative science

[Luke90]

Another interesting article I found in New Scientist:
Interview: Breaking the barriers (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524881.700)
(I wasn't sure whether this was the right area of the forum or not. If any mods feel it should be moved, go for it.)

[minusthejihad]

From the link:

Do you talk about politics with Karen?

I tend to be very open about politics with all Israelis I meet. I cannot lose a chance to make a statement about what we are going through. I cannot rationalise what is going on. Take, for example, the separation wall that Israel is building around the West Bank. I cannot see the sense in building walls. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution.

Probably the brain that was saved when one of your cousins couldn't make it over the wall. Like usual, the intellectual talks of theories and ideologies and misses the point.

This feeling of entitlement needs to stop. I hope the Palestinians know that when they have their Jew-free state, it's going to be even harder to get into Israel. "We want a state! But we also want to be able to take advantage of your state whenever we want too! Wahh!"

[Reffo]

Quote From New Scientist: Moien Kanaan (Palestinian Professor)
"Take, for example, the separation wall that Israel is building around the West Bank. I cannot see the sense in building walls. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution"

I would be a lot more sympathetic to such a statement if he complained about the suffering caused by war. As it is, the only reaction that I have to this statement is:
I cannot understand people who cannot understand the need for the Israelis to build a wall. What are their alternatives?

Allow themselves to be blown up by suicide bombers ?
Give in to Palestinian demands, unconditionally, without getting adequate guarantees for proper peace, resulting in the gradual destruction of Israel ?
Don't waste time, give the Pals what they want immediately ! Commit national suicide ?

It really is disappointing to hear such a statement from an apparently highly educated Palestinian who professes to be a liberal.

[Luke90]

we also want to be able to take advantage of your state whenever we want too!
This example isn't about taking advantage of Israel. It's a collaborative effort which is mutually beneficial for both parties.

[Luke90]

an apparently highly educated Palestinian who professes to be a liberal.
Where does he profess to be a liberal?

[minusthejihad]

This example isn't about taking advantage of Israel. It's a collaborative effort which is mutually beneficial for both parties.

Do you think that Palestinians are entitled to:

A> Occupation, but are allowed to enter Israel
B> Their Own State, but with no entry into Israel

You see, this professor feels they deserve all of the above. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. You get one or the other. I can not be both an American citizen and enter another country any time I want for work, or to visit a friend in a lab.

This and his comment about the need for the wall, make me think this person is either completely blind, biased, or stupid.

[Mediocrates]

The Palestinian scientist seems to be objecting to some obstacles to his science that arise out of the conflict itself. I can imagine that a Bosnian scientist in 1997 would have some of the same objections - that is, they arise out of the fact that their own infrastructure is badly crumbled after decades of neglect. If there were no intifada would the need to have to do research in Israel be any different? Probably not. And I can turn that around and show you innumerable Israeli scientists who's research is hampered because broad minded academics in the west simply decided that personal politics was more important than basic research and as a result bar them from working with western academics.

[Reffo]

Where does he profess to be a liberal?
I suppose it depends what is your definition of what is meant by "liberal". What I meant by it was that here is someone who is seemingly broadminded to recognise the humanity of the "other side" and work with some of them. He said:
"But the partnership is also an opportunity to express our conviction that scientists on both sides of the political divide could work together"

On the other side though, I was disappointed with him because while he was able to highlight the hardships that his people face, he had no empathy towards the problems of "other side". He seemed to be genuinely mystified about the reasons for the security fence. You might ask me why am I disappointed by this ? My answer is that some Israeli liberals seem to display far greater empathy towards the suffering of the Palestinians. Some may say that they are "bending over backwards" to justify Palestinian actions.

[Zlatorog]

The Palestinian scientist seems to be objecting to some obstacles to his science that arise out of the conflict itself. I can imagine that a Bosnian scientist in 1997 would have some of the same objections - that is, they arise out of the fact that their own infrastructure is badly crumbled after decades of neglect. If there were no intifada would the need to have to do research in Israel be any different? Probably not. And I can turn that around and show you innumerable Israeli scientists who's research is hampered because broad minded academics in the west simply decided that personal politics was more important than basic research and as a result bar them from working with western academics.

If you can, that would surely be an interesting read. There was no real neglect of the scientific infrastructure in Bosnia, it's just that the three other, larger cities of the Kingdom were located in a less Olympics-appropriate environment.

If we look just at some medical institutions

During the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina and the siege of Sarajevo, years 1992-1996, Clinical Center was shelled daily, regardless of hospital markings and knowledge that it was health institution. Clinic for Obstetrics and Gynaecology and Pediatric Clinic were totally destroyed by shelling. Institute for Physiatrics in Iliidza was destroyed, too. Institute for Vascular Diseases and Psychiatric hospital were devastated during retreat of aggressor from Jagomir suburb. All Clinics in Kosevo sustained enormous damages bitted by more than 350 shells.

Total damages are estimated on 34.2% of capacities before the war, which count 1130 beds.

During the shellings of Clinical Center, 5 patients were killed, 19 wounded. 51 employee of Clinical Center were killed during the siege of Sarajevo.

During the aggression staff and patients were transferred from destroyed departments into the operational ones and continued they activities but in a reduced and rationalized capacities.

In the period from 1992-1995, 2597 employees left the Clinical Center. 2271 employees stayed and worked through the war and with 772 newly employed.

_______


For the scientists, intellectuals, who left like that there were never any limits who to work with, the real unemployment came later, when the kids who graduated in the country decided to stay.

[Luke90]

This and his comment about the need for the wall, make me think this person is either completely blind, biased, or stupid.
He's bound to be biased.

some Israeli liberals seem to display far greater empathy towards the suffering of the Palestinians.
Israel is probably a far less radicalised society.

I can turn that around and show you innumerable Israeli scientists who's research is hampered because broad minded academics in the west simply decided that personal politics was more important than basic research and as a result bar them from working with western academics.
And I think that's wrong too.

I can not be both an American citizen and enter another country any time I want for work, or to visit a friend in a lab.
I would have thought if you wanted to do research with someone from a different country like Canada you'd be able to do it with relatively little hassle.

[KettleWhistle]

So that person blames Israel for defending itself. What else new?

[minusthejihad]

I would have thought if you wanted to do research with someone from a different country like Canada you'd be able to do it with relatively little hassle.

Sure, thats because there aren't Canadians blowing themselves up outside discos here like it happened yet again in Israel today. Sure, they don't need barriers! /sarcasm

[KettleWhistle]

Not to mention that our civilians would be justified in blowing themselves up in Canada, since we have a maritime border dispute with them. And of course, that would all be the Canadians' fault too. ;)

[Reffo]

Israel is probably a far less radicalised society.Israel has it's radicals too. But I think there is more to this than just that. What this article illustrates is the difference between the value systems of the two societies. What frustrates me most is that there seems to be very few voices of dissent and debate in Palestinian society, it's as if they are acting collectively to perpetrate this state of hate and war. I suppose in all fairness to potential Palestinian liberals, if they dare to be too moderate, in public, they could (and probably would) be labelled as collaborators and they would be brutally executed. I understand that even Abass (who is a so called moderate leader) has recently approved the execution of so called collaborators.

The net result is that, unlike the Israeli moderates, even the moderate Palestinians sound like hard liners.

[minusthejihad]

Don't worry, the moral relativists have a disconnect when it comes to this.

People like Luke can't tell the difference.

[Reffo]

Quote From New Scientist: Moien Kanaan (Palestinian Professor):

In Palestine we have large numbers of families who suffer genetic hearing loss. There is a high rate of inbreeding - 40 to 50 per cent of all marriages are arranged within the extended family or between first cousins. This leads to certain recessive disorders, including hearing loss and blood disorders such as thalassaemia.

I have to say that after hearing about the latest Palestinian Suicide Bombing outrage in Tel Aviv, in the middle of this so called peace process, I think that the problems associated with inbreeding in Palestinian society are not limited just to hearing disorders.....

[Luke90]

Don't worry, the moral relativists have a disconnect when it comes to this.
People like Luke can't tell the difference.
I'm not a moral relativist.
You misunderstood one post I made and haven't stopped accusing me of it since.

Sure, thats because there aren't Canadians blowing themselves up outside discos here like it happened yet again in Israel today. Sure, they don't need barriers! /sarcasm
I don't dispute the need for a barrier, but surely it could be used in such a way as to cause less problems for projects like this and other legitimate reasons to cross the barrier.

[Luke90]

I was disappointed with him because while he was able to highlight the hardships that his people face, he had no empathy towards the problems of "other side".
I just re-read the article and I don't think it's fair to conclude that he has no concept of the problems of Israelis.
The interviewer asked the Palestinian about the problems the conflict causes him and asked the Israeli about the problems the conflict causes her.
He wasn't asked about the problems of Israelis.

[Reffo]

I don't think it's fair to conclude that he has no concept of the problems of Israelis.I would not have disagreed with you had he not made the statement:
Quote From New Scientist: Moien Kanaan (Palestinian Professor)
"Take, for example, the separation wall that Israel is building around the West Bank. I cannot see the sense in building walls. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution"

This statement betrays his lack of empathy towards the problems that the "other side" faces (see my first post). Although I don't expect him to take Israel's side, I also don't expect him to make such Disingenuous or ignorant statements either.

[Luke90]

That does seem excessively idealistic and a little out-of-touch with the real world, but he is a scientist :p

[Reffo]

I would not have used the word "idealistic". I think he is perfectly aware of the propaganda value of his statement. He is just repeating the official party line of the Palestinians. I can just see the innocent look on his face while he is in effect asking:

"I cannot see the sense of Israel defending itself. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution. After all, there are more violent or suicidal alternatives" :p

[KettleWhistle]

Quote From New Scientist: Moien Kanaan (Palestinian Professor):
In Palestine we have large numbers of families who suffer genetic hearing loss. There is a high rate of inbreeding - 40 to 50 per cent of all marriages are arranged within the extended family or between first cousins. This leads to certain recessive disorders, including hearing loss and blood disorders such as thalassaemia.
I have to say that after hearing about the latest Palestinian Suicide Bombing outrage in Tel Aviv, in the middle of this so called peace process, I think that the problems associated with inbreeding in Palestinian society are not limited just to hearing disorders.....

That quote deserves to go into my signature for this week. :D

[Reffo]

Thanks, I thought it was apt given the awful circumstances.....

[Luke90]

I think that the problems associated with inbreeding in Palestinian society are not limited just to hearing disorders.....
I thought it was apt given the awful circumstances.....
So another suicide bombing makes it okay to suggest that palestinians are genetically inferior. I see your logic.

[wellofvow]

So another suicide bombing makes it okay to suggest that palestinians are genetically inferior. I see your logic.

Actually, yes.

While my field of expertise is not molecular genetics, my son just finished his MSc in molecular biology, and we have discussed gene pools.

When you have generations of inbreeding, first cousins marrying, as happens among some Arab sub-populations for socioeconomic reasons (keeping assets within the tribe), the dwindling gene pool DOES cause many genetic diseases and problems, one of them being retardation.

[wellofvow]

I have quite a few problems with this Palestinian scientist, from his comments in New Scientist (published in the UK, notice, so questions to the Palestinian harped on the "occupation").

Much of the Palestinian territories are occupied by the Israeli army, so it is very difficult.

How else does the occupation affect university life?

It affects it very much. We used to have students coming from all over the Palestinian territories, from Nablus and Jenin and Gaza. Now we don't, because it is so hard to travel through all the checkpoints.

The occupation disrupts us in other ways. We have had several incursions here by the Israeli army. The first time it happened the lab was completely shut down. There was shooting around the town and the university. We lost all the tissue cultures and some of the cell lines because of the electricity shortage. Incursions also have a great social and economic impact. People become paralysed, they cannot go out, and it takes time for them to get back to working again. There's a significant psychological effect. Everyone in the lab has had their own experience of the violence.

The checkpoints, the humiliation of the occupation and the violence - all these things have an effect on the relationship.

I cannot lose a chance to make a statement about what we are going through. I cannot rationalise what is going on. Take, for example, the separation wall that Israel is building around the West Bank. I cannot see the sense in building walls. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution.

It was depressing that this man, in spite of his bragging about contacts with Israeli scientists, showed absolutely no understanding of what Israelis go through. He is obsessed with his own "suffering". I am sick of this.

It was depressing to see this man of science blaming ye olde occupation and the mean Israelis for all of his woes - probably including his bunions. I wonder when he will get around to blaming Israel and the "occupation" for the Arab genetic inbreeding outcomes....

Anyhow, after blaming ye olde occupation for standing in the way of his brilliant scientific research studies - he suddenly mentions just how he hooked up with his Israeli partner. Did anyone notice? It was at a conference that he attended - AT THE WEIZMANN INSTITUTE.


Around 1994 I became interested in investigating hearing loss, and at a meeting at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel someone mentioned Karen Avraham, who was working on this at Tel Aviv University. So we got in touch.

If memory serves me correctly ....... wasn't he "suffering" under Israeli occupation in 1994? In 1994, he came to Rehovot to the Weizmann Institute for conferences, and Israelis went to Gaza, Hebron, and many Arab towns in the West Bank to buy everything from furniture to vegetables. It was rioting Palestinians during the intifada that made it worth your life for an Israeli to enter "their" territory, but it infuriated the world when Israel did not allow free access to every Mahmoud, Mohammed, and Hashem who wanted to enter our territory.

I will take umbrage at a Palestinian who feely admits

I cannot lose a chance to make a statement about what we are going through.

or, in other words, use his position as a man of science (who collaborates on a research study with Israel) to propagandize the Palestinian line, and because of his claim through this contact with Israelis, bluster that he

cannot see the sense in building walls. I cannot imagine what kind of brain came up with that solution.

This man's overall intelligence is probably nothing to write home about, and I am certainly not impressed with his scientific knowledge. I have studied under epidemiologists at Ben Gurion University who dwarf this man.

Perhaps he is the male clone of Hanan Oshrawi, may she grow like a turnip etc. (since she already has the brain of one).

[Reffo]

So another suicide bombing makes it okay to suggest that palestinians are genetically inferior. I see your logic.Luke you are a bit sensitive about a bit of black humour. It was the Palestinian scientist himself who mentioned the problems that arise from inbreeding. My comment was just an extension of what he said. This was just my way of using a bit of black humour to relieve the frustration and tension that the terrorist atrocity caused, it may not have been PC but all peoples tend to do this in times of war, even the Brits. The Arabs say much worse things about the Jews (if you want I can post you some links). No need to jump on the podium and display righteous indignation ;) .

[Luke90]

Luke you are a bit sensitive about a bit of black humour.
Fair enough. You do generally seem to be reasonable about things like this.
I've just got used to any insult directed at muslims being tolerated or even applauded and while I can understand people's anger towards them it seems sad that even in sections of the forum dedicated towards tackling racism, racist comments about other nationalities will be permitted.

[Mediocrates]

None the less all one has to do is pick up any copy of Hadassah magazine to see all the collaboration going on in medicine already. If people want to make their own lack of progress a political issue then those who do not will easily surpass them.

[Luke90]

If people want to make their own lack of progress a political issue
I don't think there's any indication of lack of progress.

This man's overall intelligence is probably nothing to write home about, and I am certainly not impressed with his scientific knowledge. I have studied under epidemiologists at Ben Gurion University who dwarf this man.
There is nothing in the article to give any indication of his scientific knowledge. Do you have any basis at all for putting him down on that score?

[KettleWhistle]

I don't think there's any indication of lack of progress.

I think there is a good indication of regression that has been on-going since the Oslo process.

[Luke90]

I was referring to the progress of this scientific project because I thought that was what Mediocrates was referrring to.

[wellofvow]

There is nothing in the article to give any indication of his scientific knowledge. Do you have any basis at all for putting him down on that score?

OK, good question! and a great opportunity for me to vent about one of my hot buttons.

The occupation disrupts us in other ways. We have had several incursions here by the Israeli army. The first time it happened the lab was completely shut down. There was shooting around the town and the university. We lost all the tissue cultures and some of the cell lines because of the electricity shortage.

My FATHER was a research worker in the 1950s, and certainly knew steps to take to protect precious cultures and cell lines. Serious scientists make sure that there is a generator to kick in when electricity fails.

There is, in my opinion, the possibility that he is not being truthful here, and is trying to score points in the blabla of how the "occupation" is ruining his life and the lives of everyone.

Incursions also have a great social and economic impact. People become paralysed, they cannot go out, and it takes time for them to get back to working again. There's a significant psychological effect. Everyone in the lab has had their own experience of the violence.

"Significant psychological effect" sounds very learned, but here it is pretty much hogwash. He is a biologist, he should stay away from psychology, about which he knows nothing.

There is a high rate of inbreeding - 40 to 50 per cent of all marriages are arranged within the extended family or between first cousins.


This figure sounds kind of low to me, but I may be influenced by the Bedouin around me, and inbreeding is much higher among them - not to mention the very sad outcomes.

Around 1994 I became interested in investigating hearing loss


Here I must admit to - I dunno what to call it- maybe snobbism. I have seen such dreadful outcomes of Bedouin inbreeding that it wrings my heart. All kinds of birth defects mangling limbs and scrambling facial features. I want to SHAKE Palestinian, Bedouin and Arab scientists - for G-d's (or Allah's) sake, work on changing your culture, stop inbreeding, so this mutilation will stop!!!

Hearing of scientists "studying" it, when they know very well what is causing it, is such a waste of resources! You have a problem. You know what the risk factors are, you even know causality. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! arrggghhhhh

[KettleWhistle]

I searched Pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&itool=toolbar) for the name of this scientist, and the search came with 17 publications from 1986 to 2005. Of those 17 only 5 were his original work. Three had him as the first author--the person who came with the idea and did all the work that resulted in the publication. The other two had him as the last author--the project chief.

A part of what I do for living involves counseling scientists on research strategies and methods. So I have quite a bit of insight into how this types of research work. Scientists who are any good usually publish one article of their own per year. That's one article where they are either the first or the last author. About half of scientists, the better and/or luckier half that is, publish two such articles a year. Seasoned and experienced project chiefs, formally know as principal investigators, normally get between 5 and 15 publications at any given year. As a PI, Kanaan has two publications in 2002, both of which seem to stem from the same project and set of experiments. His other original work dates back to between 1991 and 1993, and consists of two articles in second-rate journals, and one article in Biochemistry, a mid-tier journal. Quite frankly, his scientific achievments are pretty mediocre at best.

[Luke90]

Quite frankly, his scientific achievments are pretty mediocre at best.
He's not exactly in an ideal position. I'm assuming the scientists you're comparing him to are primarily from America.

My FATHER was a research worker in the 1950s, and certainly knew steps to take to protect precious cultures and cell lines. Serious scientists make sure that there is a generator to kick in when electricity fails.
Science has moved on since the 1950s and so will the equipment being used. It may well be more sensitive to disruptions in the electricity supply. You'd need a relatively sophisticated system to ensure a smooth transition to backup power without any surges or interruptions.

"Significant psychological effect" sounds very learned, but here it is pretty much hogwash. He is a biologist, he should stay away from psychology, about which he knows nothing.
You don't need to be a psychologist to say that being scared affects people. He doesn't make any claims of great insight into this area, he just states a simple undeniable fact.

I want to SHAKE Palestinian, Bedouin and Arab scientists - for G-d's (or Allah's) sake, work on changing your culture, stop inbreeding, so this mutilation will stop!!!
There's certainly a case for such a campaign but that doesn't preclude research into how existing and future cases might be treated. Even if the inbreeding was stopped overnight I suspect it would take many generations for the problems to go away.

[Mediocrates]

It's more interesting that Palestinians are inbred and suffer deafness as a result.

[KettleWhistle]

He's not exactly in an ideal position. I'm assuming the scientists you're comparing him to are primarily from America.

I was talking about the general scientific standards. They are essentially the same the world over. Whether it's China that has tons of research, most of which is lousy, Japan, Russia with most of their researchers being underfunded, yet their research is just fine, Turkey, Israel, or Czech Republic about whose funding options I know nothing about, but most of their research is really top-tier.

Science has moved on since the 1950s and so will the equipment being used. It may well be more sensitive to disruptions in the electricity supply. You'd need a relatively sophisticated system to ensure a smooth transition to backup power without any surges or interruptions.
A back-up generator is essentially the same now as it was in the 50s. Only now they are more reliable. And even most of the American research institutions have back-up power systems that provide for uninterupted power. Likewise most of the scientific equipment is designed to withstand occasional power interruptions.

Also if you read-up on his research you may see that much of it is just demographic data, and only less than a third involves actual lab tests. And even those experiments are rather basic in nature.

[Luke90]

Also if you read-up on his research you may see that much of it is just demographic data, and only less than a third involves actual lab tests. And even those experiments are rather basic in nature.
He wasn't talking specifically about this research there. He was talking about his whole lab.

Likewise most of the scientific equipment is designed to withstand occasional power interruptions.
I don't know much about the specific equipment he's using but it seems perfectly feasible that his research could be damaged by power shortages.
When our local hospital had a powercut the backups took ages to come on and then the phones still didn't work for some reason.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, first of all, the article talks about difficulties in collaborative research. It does not appear that he has any problems in finding collaborators. Otherwise, if electricity issues are a typical problem, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to deal with it. A biologist should do just fine.

[Luke90]

Well, first of all, the article talks about difficulties in collaborative research. It does not appear that he has any problems in finding collaborators.
"Difficulties of collaborative science" was just the title I made up for the thread. I didn't suggest that he had difficulty finding collaborators.

Otherwise, if electricity issues are a typical problem, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to deal with it. A biologist should do just fine.
Figuring out what he needs isn't a problem. That doesn't mean he'll be able to get the funding and equipment for it though.

[KettleWhistle]

"Difficulties of collaborative science" was just the title I made up for the thread. I didn't suggest that he had difficulty finding collaborators.

Sorry, I looked over it again and realized that was the case before you posted your reply. Nevertheless, their title "Breaking the barriers" is just as inaccurate. There aren't any mentions of social barriers, which the title seems to imply. On the contrary, both scientists say that they have no problems interacting with each other.

Figuring out what he needs isn't a problem. That doesn't mean he'll be able to get the funding and equipment for it though.
Well, he says that he has a number of grants, those from Israel that allow him and his students to study at Tel Aviv and from the NIH--the U.S. National Institute of Health. Getting their projects funded is an issue for all scientists, btw.

[Luke90]

Getting their projects funded is an issue for all scientists, btw
That's exactly the assumption I was making. I wasn't suggesting it was anyone's fault that funding wouldn't neccesarily be forthcoming, just that it was an issue your complaints about his complaints hadn't addressed.

Nevertheless, their title "Breaking the barriers" is just as inaccurate. There aren't any mentions of social barriers, which the title seems to imply.
It doesn't imply that they have to be social barriers, but nevertheless surely it isn't unreasonable to suggest that there is a certain amount of hostility between Israelis and Palestinians. Or have I got confused somwhere along the line and they're really all just one big happy family. :p

On the contrary, both scientists say that they have no problems interacting with each other.
If they couldn't get on with each other they wouldn't have broken many barriers.

[KettleWhistle]

It doesn't imply that they have to be social barriers, but nevertheless surely it isn't unreasonable to suggest that there is a certain amount of hostility between Israelis and Palestinians. Or have I got confused somwhere along the line and they're really all just one big happy family. :p
Doesn't the Israeli woman brag about their children actively socializing?

If they couldn't get on with each other they wouldn't have broken many barriers.
The only real "barrier" mentioned is the prohibition by the Pal authorities on collaborations with Israeli scientists.

[Luke90]

Doesn't the Israeli woman brag about their children actively socializing?
There're worse things to be proud of.

The only real "barrier" mentioned is the prohibition by the Pal authorities on collaborations with Israeli scientists.
Which I think is a shame, but at least it isn't enforced.

Surely you aren't trying to suggest that they're wrong to imply there are barriers between Israelis and Palestinians?

btw, the New Scientist website seems to be down at the moment

[KettleWhistle]

I wouldn't call it "barriers." Those are two drastically different societies. The Israeli is a modern one. The Pal is a 14th century Middle Eastern society. Palestinians who are educated and don't have the medieval mentality get along with Israelis. Others simply speak a different language, have different values, prefer death over peaceful lifes, believe that Jews are born with horn and tails and had the International Jewish Conspiracy personnel remove these so that they can blend in.

[Luke90]

No stereotyping here then.

[Mediocrates]

And may I add we should all be mightily impressed with the unaccented English speaking non violent Lebanese people in the streets we've been seeing the past few days. If anyone has a chance it's them. Too bad the PLO took the approach of "Let's race to the bottom, there will always be someone to feel sorry for us and bail us out".

[KettleWhistle]

No stereotyping here then.
No stereotyping. Just the reality. I mean, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Luke90]

Palestinians who are educated and don't have the medieval mentality get along with Israelis. Others simply speak a different language, have different values, prefer death over peaceful lifes, believe that Jews are born with horn and tails and had the International Jewish Conspiracy personnel remove these so that they can blend in.
I suppose it's true if anyone who doesn't hold those negative views is defined as educated and non-medieval.

[KettleWhistle]

It's not nearly as much a matter of negative views, which are mostly a result of the routine propaganda, but that of societal development and values.

If you went to some backwards village in Africa where people have been practicing the "female cicumsision" for centuries, how would you relate to them that it is wrong? Do you think they could ever even understand it?

And would you call that difference in values a barrier? I wouldn't.

[goliath]

Circumsision : can be considered as well as a religious prescription or a healthy one , like to eat porc or not in hot countries ( suine pleg).
Excision : It's not a religious or healthy act , it's only to reduce the sexuality contact ,it's a mutilation .
It's not necessary to go very far in backwards African's village ,they are doing this nowadays in France and in all Europe where you can find African Immigration , it's forbidden by law ,but they are doing the same.

[Luke90]

And would you call that difference in values a barrier? I wouldn't.
There's our disagreement then.
I would call the difference in values and culture a barrier. Not just that issue specifically but the whole package of differences would make it harder for, say, an Englishman to relate to someone from that culture.

[Canajew]

another excellent discussion guys. Keep up the good work.