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Mediocrates
02-25-2005, 03:29 AM
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=10570

Modern Orthodox Outnumber Haredim Here New data surprise demographers; why, then, is modern community ‘in retreat’? Gary Rosenblatt - Editor And Publisher
Even as Modern Orthodox Jews see themselves as embattled and on the decline within Orthodoxy, eclipsed by the ascendancy of the haredim to the right, new demographic data offer quite a different picture.

In fact, the Modern Orthodox are the largest segment by far of the Orthodox population in New York, according to a leading sociologist whose study on the community has yet to be released.

Of the approximately 100,000 Orthodox Jewish households in the New York area, 74,000 are likely Modern Orthodox, based on data from the Jewish Community Study of New York, 2002, commissioned by UJA-Federation of New York, and carried out by Ukeles Associates Inc.

“The figures come as a surprise,” acknowledged Jacob Ukeles, a leading demographer who oversaw the study and presented key findings on Sunday at the fourth international conference of Edah, a Modern Orthodox group advancing tolerance and intellectual inquiry.

“I would have guessed 50-50 [between Modern Orthodox and haredim],” he told The Jewish Week, based on the number of children in yeshivas and day schools.

But yet his study based on interviews with almost 900 Orthodox respondents in New York City, Long Island and Westchester County said otherwise.

Ukeles noted that the study is the first attempt to discern differences of ideology within the Orthodox community and could only have been done in New York, which is home to the largest Jewish — and Orthodox — population in the country.

Though definitions are less than precise, Modern Orthodox Jews tend to be more supportive of Zionism and embracing of Western culture than haredim, whose communities are more insular.

The study also found that Orthodox Jews comprise the largest segment of the New York Jewish community and their ranks are growing, while those of Conservative and Reform Jews are slipping.

Still, Samuel Heilman, a professor of sociology and Jewish studies at the City University of New York, described the Modern Orthodox community as “in retreat” and “lacking confidence” while the haredim are growing in numbers, influence and confidence.

“The modernists now see themselves as on the margins,” Heilman told the Edah audience of about 1,000, meeting at the Skirball Center for Adult Jewish Learning at Temple Emanu-El on the Upper East Side. But they are also a part of a trend throughout the Orthodox community that is moving ideologically toward the right.

He asserted that those in the modern camp no longer ignore warnings from the more fundamental elements of the Orthodox community about the decline of American culture and the dangers of a liberal college education.

Ukeles told The Jewish Week that his and Heilman’s findings “are not inconsistent,” saying that he was addressing a quantitative profile of the community while Heilman’s observations were qualitative.

“You may have people who self-identify as Modern Orthodox,” Ukeles explained, “but if they send their children to right-wing yeshivas and are afraid to speak up when their shul doesn’t say the prayer for the State of Israel, etc., they may be overtly Modern Orthodox but in retreat.

“The data won’t tell you that,” he added. “Now you’re looking into their hearts.”

From a strategic position, Ukeles said, Modern Orthodox Jews may ask themselves, “If we’re so numerous, maybe we should be more assertive.”

In his presentation, Ukeles noted that it is difficult to determine what percentage of the Orthodox community is modern or haredi. The “litmus question” he used in his survey asked participants who described themselves as Orthodox how important they felt it was to give children a college or university education. Those who responded “very important” were categorized as modern, while those who replied “not very important” or “not important at all” were considered as most likely to be haredim.

The study found that the vast majority of Orthodox Jews who consider college not important live in Brooklyn, though even there 55 percent believe college is important. And overall, Orthodox Jews who say college is very important are significantly older than those who believe it is somewhat or not important.

Rabbi Avi Shafran, a spokesman for Agudath Israel of America, a haredi institution, said the litmus question seemed sound, but he called the findings of “limited value.” He suggested large numbers of chasidim and other haredim may not have been represented because they were unlikely to respond, or live in other areas. Rabbi Shafran also noted that haredim have a higher birthrate than Modern Orthodox Jews, so the trend is toward more of a balance between the two segments of the community in the future.

Marvin Schick, a consultant who has written extensively on Orthodox life, finds the litmus question problematic, though. “It obliterates the category of centrist Orthodox,” he said, noting that many haredim here attend colleges like Touro. The line between those who do and do not go to college “is more fluid” here as compared to Israel, Schick said.

Modern Orthodox institutions have seen themselves facing an uphill struggle to maintain their numbers, ideological positions and influence in the Orthodox community. Edah, founded in 1996, is a case in point. Despite numerous innovative programs and publications, it has not grown as its leaders had hoped. This year’s conference was reduced from two days of programs to one, primarily for financial reasons.

Some say the organization’s association with Charles Kushner, the New Jersey real estate developer who pleaded guilty to charges of tax violation based on witness tampering a few months ago, has hurt its image, which emphasizes high ethical standards. Kushner houses Edah’s office in one of his Newark office buildings at virtually no cost.

In addition, the grant for Edah’s program to place young teachers in Jewish schools around the country has not been renewed, and its leaders acknowledge that recruiting was difficult. Six teachers are in the program this year.

Heilman’s presentation at the conference described, in part, why Modern Orthodox Jews may feel embattled even as their community moves rightward. He cited four reasons, the first being the perceived decline of American culture and values, calling into the question the merits of a liberal education in a time of increasing permissiveness, especially on campus. Second, he said there has been a relinquishing of parental educational responsibilities to yeshiva administrators and teachers, two-thirds of whom are themselves haredim. Third, fewer Modern Orthodox Jews are going into the rabbinate.

And fourth, increasing numbers of Modern Orthodox youngsters are becoming more ritually observant during post-high school study in Israeli yeshivas and returning home decidedly more observant than their parents — a phenomenon known as “flipping out.”

Heilman said that if the Modern Orthodox community hopes to reclaim its hold on its youth, parents need to play a greater and more direct role in teaching their children, the community needs to train its own rabbis and “take responsibility” for its own “spiritual experience,” in part by creating yeshivas, here and in Israel, that reflect values that embrace both Jewish culture and those of tolerance, diversity and intellectual inquiry.

Rabbi Saul Berman, the director and primary force behind Edah, discussed where the Modern Orthodox community is headed and where it is not. Gone are the days of Modern Orthodoxy of the 1940s and ‘50s, he said, when mixed dancing and more casual attitudes toward kashrut and women’s head coverings were the norm. Modern Orthodoxy will not be “haredi lite,” the rabbi said, asserting that the amount and quality of serious Torah inquiry in “striving for truth” and rejecting authoritarianism is impressive.

The rabbi said Modern Orthodoxy is “on the cusp of a renaissance,” but he offered a strong critique of what he called “a failure of will” and lack of religious passion in the community, too little serious Torah study on a regular basis, an unwillingness to challenge the views of those perceived as more observant and a discomfort with difficult mitzvot. “When the going gets tough,” he said in reference to issues like dating, kashrut or women’s hair covering, “the Modern Orthodox find a heter,” or lenient ruling.

Rabbi Berman called on his adherents to welcome, rather than reject, those young people who have moved to the right in their observance and study, and to try to “harness” their spiritual energy to modern ideology. n

Gary Rosenblatt, editor and publisher of The Jewish Week, was one of more than 80 speakers at the Edah conference.

KettleWhistle
02-25-2005, 09:48 AM
What's a "Modern Orthodox?"

minusthejihad
02-25-2005, 10:03 AM
Maybe its like the Sabra I played basketball with last night. He and his family are Orthodox, they follow all the rules almost explicitly, but they still work and have normal lives and don't expect to sit on the government's dole and dovin 22 hrs a day?

His family wasn't too fond of either the Haredim, Chabads, or any Ultra-Orthodox group in Israel kind of like Ophra, except this guy is religious and just finished serving in the Paratroopers core and I certainly didn't hear the words "hate" nor "despise".

Mediocrates
02-25-2005, 10:19 AM
What's a "Modern Orthodox?"


Edah, Orthodox Union (OU.org), Aish...? Joe Liberman?, Jewish Media Resources, ounetwork.org. Generally speaking the non Haredi Frum, the Orthodox who live in and of the world everyday. Some would say NOT the ultraorthodox. The followers of Rav Soloveitchik, Saul Berman, Sarna, Jonathan Sacks....

Mediocrates
02-25-2005, 10:24 AM
It's very important for Jews and non Jews to understand that observance does not = black hats. Most of the prejudices people have about Orthodox are just that, prejudices. What they never learn is that there is a whole community of Jews, Orthodox Jews who never walk around in furry Satmar hats and who work in everyday jobs and speak English (or Flemish or French or what have you) who go to baseball games and don't have 11 kids.

Did you know that Bush's former speech writer, David Frum, is Orthodox? That should paint a picture.

minusthejihad
02-25-2005, 10:29 AM
I know this is OT,

but after reading up on Chabad, Haredim, Hasidic Movement, etc., I'm more confused than ever, without going into anything long, or without moving this to the religion sector, can you please answer these simple :D questions?

So a Hasidic follower is a Haredim, but not all Haredim are Hasidic?

And are Chabadnics considered Haredim as well?

And then the next groups in terms of belief would be Modern Orthodox?

Oh, and what does Frum mean? Nah, I'll look it up. Boy this is :o

KettleWhistle
02-25-2005, 11:07 AM
I meant my question in terms of belief. Basically what minus said.


It's very important for Jews and non Jews to understand that observance does not = black hats. Most of the prejudices people have about Orthodox are just that, prejudices.

Prejudices or not, many Orthodox do look and act a certain way. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's a free country, so if someone chooses to dress in medieval clothes and not shave for years, I don't care. At the same time, when they do that, they are noticable. I see no problem with noticing that they look foolish wearing their fur hats or praying non-stop.

Mediocrates
02-25-2005, 01:01 PM
I know this is OT,

but after reading up on Chabad, Haredim, Hasidic Movement, etc., I'm more confused than ever, without going into anything long, or without moving this to the religion sector, can you please answer these simple :D questions?

So a Hasidic follower is a Haredim, but not all Haredim are Hasidic?

Correct. Chassids follow the Chassidic movements like Lubavitcher, Lvov, Satmar and so on. Haredi just means 'fearful' and has come to mean extremely observant - maybe even fanatically observant.


And are Chabadnics considered Haredim as well?

Depends on who you ask. Most Chassids live in the world and are very familiar with the world outside. Ultra Orthodox like in Israel really don't live in the world at all. They live in halacha only.


And then the next groups in terms of belief would be Modern Orthodox?

It's not about belief it's about practice. It's the difference between being able to deal with the goyishe world versus not being able to.


Oh, and what does Frum mean? Nah, I'll look it up. Boy this is :o

Frum means Orthodox observant,

minusthejihad
02-25-2005, 02:01 PM
Thanks. Also, I thought Haredi meant "trembles before god", I guess that's close enough. Any other sects I should know about, besides those Naturia crazies?

frizzer1
03-04-2005, 10:32 AM
I am a fallen MO.It really helps if you are a believer and I am not.However Modern orthodoxy is the only place in judaism where I feel I belong.Think I'm religiously schizophrenic? You would be right.
Modern orthodox do not wear 17th century polish clothing or whatever it is.We don't wear black hats.And we don't wear only black kippot.
We dress as you do but the women dress modestly.We wear knitted or coloured kippot...people have divorced over the colour of a kippah.
Except for the kippah you can't tell that we are MO...you may not be able to tell that we are even jewish.
Modern orthodoxy is evolving. Mixed dancing is now out.Tsitsit are back in.The question now is..will you eat in a kosher restaurant that doesn't have a hechsher? Do you have to have 2 dishwashers? Can you open the oven on shabbat when the oven light is on?Tell the truth..if you forget to say something in the Amidah, do you start all over again? How many hours do you wait after meat?Do you let your kids play trick or treat on halloween?Are teddy bears treif? When you need to ask a rabbi ..do you pick your rabbi based on his record of liberalism v conservatism?
Any mo's out there who know what I'm talking about?And if there are,what are your answers?

minusthejihad
03-04-2005, 10:35 AM
wow!

I guess I'm happy being a reform-humanistic Heb.

Mediocrates
03-04-2005, 10:47 AM
I am a fallen MO.It really helps if you are a believer and I am not.

Mixed dancing is now out.Tsitsit are back in.The question now is..will you eat in a kosher restaurant that doesn't have a hechsher? Do you have to have 2 dishwashers? Can you open the oven on shabbat when the oven light is on?Tell the truth..if you forget to say something in the Amidah, do you start all over again? How many hours do you wait after meat?Do you let your kids play trick or treat on halloween?Are teddy bears treif? When you need to ask a rabbi ..do you pick your rabbi based on his record of liberalism v conservatism?
Any mo's out there who know what I'm talking about?And if there are,what are your answers?


Very good. ;)

I see tzitzit more and more now too.

No don't have two dishwashers but if someone would like to send me $50,000 I'd happily redo the entire kitchen.


if you forget to say something in the Amidah, do you start all over again

No, well sometimes, or, don't ask don't tell!


kosher restaurant that doesn't have a hechsher

I gave up fighting the obscure points of kashrut. I don't think there is any coherent answer and everyone you ask will absolutely be convinced that their opinion comes from Moshe himself.


When you need to ask a rabbi ..do you pick your rabbi based on his record of liberalism v conservatism?

Of course; a good lawyer always knows the answer to the question before he asks it.

frizzer1
08-24-2006, 02:19 PM
Thought I'd bump this up.

After reading the original post I wonder whether MO's still are the majority.
Seems to me with our birthrate we are declining.

mbczion
08-24-2006, 03:06 PM
Interesting and IMPORTANT site for those who care about Jewish unity:

http://www.endthemadness.org

mbczion
08-24-2006, 03:14 PM
I don't really think there is a coherent definition for "Modern Orthodox". I know those who consider themselves MO's who do NOT have TV's in their house (including my family, although it is more because we just don't have the time rather than for religious reasons), while I also know those who consider themselves Haredim who are college educated and send their kids to college. There are some black-hatters who for the most part live MO style lives and some knitted kippot wearers who's lifestyles border more on that of the Haredi lifestyle. I guess it is one of those things that is more of a label from those looking in from the outside, rather than the other way around.

mbczion
08-24-2006, 04:07 PM
The question now is..will you eat in a kosher restaurant that doesn't have a hechsher?

I only eat in restaurants with a teudat kashrut. It doesn't have to be glatt, but a teudah there has to be. I will NOT eat vegetables in a non-kosher restuarant (even though, technically this is halachically permitted) due to marat ha'ayin.


Do you have to have 2 dishwashers?

Wish we could afford one:(


Can you open the oven on shabbat when the oven light is on?

No.


Tell the truth..if you forget to say something in the Amidah, do you start all over again?

Depends on what. The halachot are in Masechet Berachot.


How many hours do you wait after meat?

6


Do you let your kids play trick or treat on halloween?

Don't have to worry about that in Israel.


Are teddy bears treif?

Huh?!?!


When you need to ask a rabbi ..do you pick your rabbi based on his record of liberalism v conservatism?

When my wife and I have a halachic ? we ask the Rabbi who married us.