A tip to help you argue in support of the security fence

[Womble]

If you, like me, keep stumbing upon morons who claim that the security fance is a "land grab" or an attempt to pre-determine the future Israeli-Palestinian border in favor of Israel- here's some ammunition for your fight.

I have lately been visiting a blog of a certain anti-Israeli activist. In one of his last post, he linked to a bunch of photos of "heroic" Palestinians tearing down a section of the security fence. The photos are on the ISM website, so you might want to hold your nose while looking- but believe me, its worth it.

http://palsolidarity.org/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?tabID=0&alias=Rainbow&lang=en-US&ItemID=364&mid=10439&wversion=Staging

Have a look on the second photo, the one that shows a section of the barrier lying on the ground. You can clearly see the concrete foundation. It is flat-bottomed- that is, its not ripped off a larger foundation that is dug deep into the ground. This concrete pad is what the fence actually stands of. All of it is made of rather small separate sections, like a Lego puzzle, and the foundation height is barely 20 centimeters. The trench left after the foundation was dug out is VERY shallow. On other photos, you can also see how exactly the protestors tore the fence down- by simply leaning on it with their weight.

And I am asking you- is that how you build a structure that is there to stay? Is it not obvious enough that the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery?

[Sumud]

Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.

And I guess that's also the reason why the Israeli Govt sent letters to Palestinian in East Jersualm advising them that Israel was confiscating their land behind the security barier - so they could give it back one day?

[Mediocrates]

Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.



They are about 4% of the total length. Next you'll be complaining about the shape of the Gallilee.

[golani]

[QUOTE=Sumud]Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.

Let's repeat once more:the 8km 6 meters high concrete barrier in Abu dis is designed to prevent potentiel snipers to shoot car drivers on the nearby motorway

8 kms of concrete wall out of 700 kms of fence,that is not a big deal

Now ,let us speak about the wall separating USA from Mexico....

[Sumud]

And what is the practical function of confiscating Palestinian land behind the barrier?

[Mediocrates]

1 - It's not theirs to claim it is.

2 - Such is the realities of national emergence.

3 - Tough darts.

[Luke90]

And I am asking you- is that how you build a structure that is there to stay?
It's certainly how I'd build a barrier that I wanted up quickly.
The permanence of the particular structure that's there now has little bearing on how long there will be some form of fence there.

[Mira]

Palestinian terrorists built that fence. Anybody who thinks that the fence should be built exactly along the green line has either never been to Israel and has no appreciation for the natural landscape or just doesn't care about Israel's security needs.

[Womble]

Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.
Actually, yes.

Check out any picture of the concrete sections of the barrier, and you will see that they have exactly the same "Lego puzzle" structure- narrow sections loosely put together and not dug in all that deep. Building a solid wall would be logistically easier and financially cheaper.


And I guess that's also the reason why the Israeli Govt sent letters to Palestinian in East Jersualm advising them that Israel was confiscating their land behind the security barier - so they could give it back one day?
This land isn't exactly being confiscated in its common understanding, Sumud. De-jure, the land's owners remain rightful owners and can either apply for compensations or file a lawsuit against the confiscation. They still retain the right to claim their land back once the barrier is re-routed or removed.

[Sumud]

Womble, you're wrong on all counts.

The photo you referred to is only a part of the barrier. It's not even clear if this is a photo of the actual barrier or just a bit of fencing.

This CSM article gives a diagram (at the very end) of what the final barrier actually consists of. http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0808/p01s05-wome.html?leftNavInclude

As for the concrete sections being like 'leggo', are you kidding?
The 26ft high sections are concreted in place. This poured concrete at it's base comes almost up to shoulder height of an average person.

And it isn't just around Abu Dis, Qalqiliya is almost completely surrounded by the concrete monstrosity.


Not confiscated?? Let's see, Israel takes the land, builds Jewish settlements on it at a cost of millions of NIS, and then they just give it back when they're done. You have a bridge for sale too, I bet.

[KettleWhistle]

Womble, you're wrong on all counts.

The photo you referred to is only a part of the barrier. It's not even clear if this is a photo of the actual barrier or just a bit of fencing.

This CSM article gives a diagram (at the very end) of what the final barrier actually consists of. http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0808/p01s05-wome.html?leftNavInclude

As for the concrete sections being like 'leggo', are you kidding?
The 26ft high sections are concreted in place. This poured concrete at it's base comes almost up to shoulder height of an average person.

And it isn't just around Abu Dis, Qalqiliya is almost completely surrounded by the concrete monstrosity.


Not confiscated?? Let's see, Israel takes the land, builds Jewish settlements on it at a cost of millions of NIS, and then they just give it back when they're done. You have a bridge for sale too, I bet.

So? If you people don't like it, then leave. You want your own state? Great. Just don't complain that you are being walled off. Separating you from us REALLY is the whole idea here.

[Womble]

Womble, you're wrong on all counts.

The photo you referred to is only a part of the barrier. It's not even clear if this is a photo of the actual barrier or just a bit of fencing.
The link said it was the barrier. Then again, it's an ISM link, and they are a bunch of liars.


As for the concrete sections being like 'leggo', are you kidding?
The 26ft high sections are concreted in place. This poured concrete at it's base comes almost up to shoulder height of an average person.
This (http://www.palestinercs.org/images/Separation%20Wall/separationwall(Al-ttur)021203WBRR2.jpg) photo gives a pretty good view of the sections. This (http://www.noisebetweenstations.com/personal/weblogs/images/israel.wall.jpg) one shows the base- barely the height of a 10 year old kid, one meter something- not much to balance a 26ft high piece of concrete.


And it isn't just around Abu Dis, Qalqiliya is almost completely surrounded by the concrete monstrosity.
I know. The "wall" sections are built in the areas where there is a possibility of sniper fire at the nearby Israeli communities or roads from the Palestinian side of the barrier.


Not confiscated?? Let's see, Israel takes the land, builds Jewish settlements on it at a cost of millions of NIS, and then they just give it back when they're done. You have a bridge for sale too, I bet.
What do the settlements have to do with that? We were discussing the barrier, weren't we? Why jump the subject all of a sudden? The settlements are a whole other issue.

[Sumud]

This (http://www.palestinercs.org/images/Separation%20Wall/separationwall(Al-ttur)021203WBRR2.jpg) photo gives a pretty good view of the sections. This (http://www.noisebetweenstations.com/personal/weblogs/images/israel.wall.jpg) one shows the base- barely the height of a 10 year old kid, one meter something- not much to balance a 26ft high piece of concrete.
Yeah, those kids are just going to squeeze past it, or maybe they'll just push the 'leggo block' wall over, as you were suggesting earlier. :rolleyes:



What do the settlements have to do with that? We were discussing the barrier, weren't we? Why jump the subject all of a sudden? The settlements are a whole other issue.
Everything. In fact you brought it up. I realise it was a long time ago, but do you remember writing this?
'Is it not obvious enough that the the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery'
I can't wait to see how easy it is to remove the 26ft high concrete wall that is cemented in place and the 700km of double trenches, pathways, fences and razor wire.

And I guess the new housing will be made of straw so that they can be easily removed later. :rolleyes:

Any luck selling that bridge yet?

[Womble]

Yeah, those kids are just going to squeeze past it, or maybe they'll just push the 'leggo block' wall over, as you were suggesting earlier. :rolleyes:
I was suggesting no such thing. Leave the straw men alone.


Everything. In fact you brought it up.
I did? I've talked about settlements in this thread? Quote please.


I realise it was a long time ago, but do you remember writing this?
'Is it not obvious enough that the the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery'
I can't wait to see how easy it is to remove the 26ft high concrete wall that is cemented in place and the 700km of double trenches, pathways, fences and razor wire.
Many sections of the barrier have already been re-routed. It's not impossible. That is why, as I have demonsrated, the barrier is designed the way it is- so re-routing would cost less.


And I guess the new housing will be made of straw so that they can be easily removed later. :rolleyes:
Nope. You've used all the straw making your straw men.


Any luck selling that bridge yet?
What are you on?

[Sumud]

Womble, if it's so easy to re-route than re-route the entire thing to Israeli soil. They can build the damn thing a 1000ft high and no one will care.

Of course the settlements are an issue. If the fence is temporary, then why build houses near it on confiscated land?

Any more brilliant tips?

[Womble]

Womble, if it's so easy to re-route than re-route the entire thing to Israeli soil. They can build the damn thing a 1000ft high and no one will care.
Well its not quite that simple. The calculations of those building the barrier are those of defence and not those of politics. Whenever the defence necessity dictates that the barrier deviates from the Green Line, it deviates, and not always to the Palestinian side, btw. I believe there is at least one Jewish town that had filed a lawsuit to the High Court because (take that!) it cuts the town people off their farming lands. Plus the settlements, while they are there, also need protection. Even if you believe that the settlers live in a place that isn't theirs, it's not good enough a reason to let someone kill them for it.


Of course the settlements are an issue. If the fence is temporary, then why build houses near it on confiscated land?
It might be news to you, but there are people living in the settlements. Whatever solution will eventually be found for them, its not found yet. In the meanwhile, these people need to be protected. Clear enough for you?


Any more brilliant tips?
When I have more free time. At the moment I am too busy studying the Nazi influences on Gamal Abdel Nasser. ;)

[golani]

Any more brilliant tips?[/QUOTE from sumud ]


Yes,with great pleasure..
This defensive fence helped defeat the islamofascist terrorist campaign initiated 4 years ago againt Israel
This palestinian defeat coupled with arafat's death allowed the resumption of peace talks between the two parties...

Long live the fence,looking forward to its full completion as soon as possible
Am israel Hai,

Golani

[Sumud]

Well its not quite that simple. The calculations of those building the barrier are those of defence and not those of politics. Whenever the defence necessity dictates that the barrier deviates from the Green Line, it deviates, and not always to the Palestinian side, btw. I believe there is at least one Jewish town that had filed a lawsuit to the High Court because (take that!) it cuts the town people off their farming lands.
One Jewish town had a close shave with near disaster. That’s a real modern day tragedy.

What about the hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages affected similarly?





When I have more free time. At the moment I am too busy studying the Nazi influences on Gamal Abdel Nasser. ;)
At the same time you should check out the influence on a former Israeli PM - Yitzhak Shamir. 'Principles of Renaissance' is a fascinating little read.

[Womble]

One Jewish town had a close shave with near disaster. That’s a real modern day tragedy.

What about the hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages affected similarly?
You're at your circular logic again. I was bringing it up as an example that the Palestinians aren't the only one losing land due to the barrier. And you...refer me back to the fact that some Palestinians are being cut off their land due to the barrier. Ever heard of coherence?


At the same time you should check out the influence on a former Israeli PM - Yitzhak Shamir. 'Principles of Renaissance' is a fascinating little read.
Hmm, enlighten me.

[Harry]

If you, like me, keep stumbing upon morons who claim that the security fance is a "land grab" or an attempt to pre-determine the future Israeli-Palestinian border in favor of Israel- here's some ammunition for your fight.

I have lately been visiting a blog of a certain anti-Israeli activist. In one of his last post, he linked to a bunch of photos of "heroic" Palestinians tearing down a section of the security fence. The photos are on the ISM website, so you might want to hold your nose while looking- but believe me, its worth it.

http://palsolidarity.org/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?tabID=0&alias=Rainbow&lang=en-US&ItemID=364&mid=10439&wversion=Staging

Have a look on the second photo, the one that shows a section of the barrier lying on the ground. You can clearly see the concrete foundation. It is flat-bottomed- that is, its not ripped off a larger foundation that is dug deep into the ground. This concrete pad is what the fence actually stands of. All of it is made of rather small separate sections, like a Lego puzzle, and the foundation height is barely 20 centimeters. The trench left after the foundation was dug out is VERY shallow. On other photos, you can also see how exactly the protestors tore the fence down- by simply leaning on it with their weight.

And I am asking you- is that how you build a structure that is there to stay? Is it not obvious enough that the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery?

:(

The Palestinian People have a great imagination that one day they will have Isreal But wew have had our lessons of these kind of People in Hitler time & we dont need another on . I know i fought in the Canadian Army in the 2nd W.W & beides being a jew wqho had taken a lot of Garbage from people & Pain all i want to see the Survival 0of us Jews I know wht its like to Suffer & have to kill the enemy . In ewar we have no FREINDS just Fire power. Yes & my Grandsons are going there & one of my grandsons also fought in the Kuwat war where the Americns forced all the Jewish kids to take off any Jewish Identy while he was in Saudi Arabi. Thats Americn Freedom <s>.

Its hiding under the covers etc.

This is my opinion & truth .

Harry : :(

[SteveK]

And what is the practical function of confiscating Palestinian land behind the barrier?

Hi Sumud,

I would like to add one more item to the response of Mediocrates:


1 - It's not theirs to claim it is.

2 - Such is the realities of national emergence.

3 - Tough darts.


4 - There are millions and millions of American Jews ready to immigrate
here to Israel, and liquidate all their current assets in synagogues, land,
religious schools, "Zionist" camps, Jewish Community Centers,
etc.,- bringing billions and billions of dollars for investment to Israel
for their new Jewish settlements here on their God given Land.

[Womble]

Hi Sumud,

I would like to add one more item to the response of Mediocrates:





4 - There are millions and millions of American Jews ready to immigrate
here to Israel, and liquidate all their current assets in synagogues, land,
religious schools, "Zionist" camps, Jewish Community Centers,
etc.,- bringing billions and billions of dollars for investment to Israel
for their new Jewish settlements here on their God given Land.
...which has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.

[SteveK]

...which has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.


Hi Womble,

Sure it does.

Have you ever heard of "Building a Fence around Torah"? It means that you do even extra things to protect the holiness of the mitzvot. There is also a joke about it: Why do we build a fence around Torah? To make a SAFER TORAH !!!! (The people have to understand some Hebrew to get the pun)
The word SAFER in Hebrew means 'Book' or 'Book of' and the word SAFER in English is known by everybody here who reads English.

You are talking about building a fence for security.

What is really needed for the building of a fence for our security is an aliyah enmasse from these millions of diaspora Jews to settle all the Land of Israel with populations that no Israeli government would dare expell, or even have the slightest thought of expelling for political expediency.

Mass aliyah is truly building our security fence around our claim to our God given Land.

[KettleWhistle]

What we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies en masse. 20-children families will solve most of our current problems within generation.

[Mediocrates]

Yemen and Saudi Arabia have a very high birthrates. In a generation 3 out of 4 people there will be under the age of 16 and there will be no one to work. Now today in Saudi Arabia, a mere 3 million Saudis have real jobs with the rest filled by foreigners. Israel can't possibly do this.

[KettleWhistle]

Israel isn't Yemen or Saudi Arabia. It is a developed country, and such increase in population will not hurt it, just like the massive aliahs didn't hurt it.

[golani]

What we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies en masse. 20-children families will solve most of our current problems within generation.


I only have two young kids and I am already exhausted ... :p

[KettleWhistle]

I only have two young kids and I am already exhausted ... :p

From kids or from having kids?:p

[KettleWhistle]

Womble, if it's so easy to re-route than re-route the entire thing to Israeli soil. They can build the damn thing a 1000ft high and no one will care.
This is actually one of my favorite statements in the "security fence" arguments. So apparently, has it been build "on Israeli soil" it would not be an aparteid barrier anymore, there wouldn't have been any problems with logistics for the "Palestinians," checkpoints wouldn't be a problem. And so we can see that the above-listed excuses, are just that-excuses, and have nothing to do with the supposed problems the security fence allegedly creates.

And regarding the land--it is not "Palestinian" as it was not won in war from a country called Palestine, and since Jordan decided that it doesn't want it, the territories are disputed.

[Luke90]

And regarding the land--it is not "Palestinian" as it was not won in war from a country called Palestine, and since Jordan decided that it doesn't want it, the territories are disputed.
It's a common and sensible tag for for it. What would you prefer people to call it? I suppose you could say "the disputed territory" in this context as everyone would know which disputed territories you're talking about, but in general we have to call it something.

So apparently, has it been build "on Israeli soil" it would not be an aparteid barrier anymore, there wouldn't have been any problems with logistics for the "Palestinians," checkpoints wouldn't be a problem. And so we can see that the above-listed excuses, are just that-excuses, and have nothing to do with the supposed problems the security fence allegedly creates.
I think I missed your point here. You didn't seem to say anything to counter the argument and I didn't really understand what you were trying to say. Could you clarify what you meant?

[KettleWhistle]

It's a common and sensible tag for for it.
What makes it sensible? These territories are in dispute, and there is simply no precedent to declare them to be "Palestinian."

I think I missed your point here. You didn't seem to say anything to counter the argument and I didn't really understand what you were trying to say. Could you clarify what you meant?
My point here is simple: we often hear that the fence is an "aparteid wall" and creates all these problems because it is on "Palestinian soil." However, first of all, there is no such thing as "Palestinian soil/land" since "Palestinians" do not have a state with internationally recognized borders, and the land in question was not conquered from such a state.

But more important, these people would not be calling this fence an "aparteid wall" has it been built a mile or two west of where it is right now. So the "Palestinian soil" argument goes to show that they don't have any problems with the fence separating the two sides, and thus it invalidates the "aparteid" argument.

[Harry]

en masse[/i]. 20-children families will solve most of our current problems within generation.



Hi Whisle:
You Say that>>>we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies<< :)

Yes i guess you are right bUt isnt that what is taking place now there with some of the relegious people there . BUT wht they have to do is Give them Child Bonuses as they do here in Canada It worked for awhile inQuebec Province here in Canada.

The other thing is to outlaw Babymakung amongst the Arab Population in Israel Just like in China.

That would lower there birth rate in Israel & they would eventualy leave or jus diseaper. :D

[KettleWhistle]

Hi Whisle:
You Say that>>>we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies<< :)

Yes i guess you are right bUt isnt that what is taking place now there with some of the relegious people there . BUT wht they have to do is Give them Child Bonuses as they do here in Canada It worked for awhile inQuebec Province here in Canada.
The problem with child bonuses that existed in Israel until a couple years ago was the increasing subsidy for each additional child. And that gave plenty of money and impetus for baby-making to the poor Beduins who often have 20+ children. The deeply religious Jews aren't that big on being on being fruitful and multiplying, as they usually stop at number 6 or 7.


The other thing is to outlaw Babymakung amongst the Arab Population in Israel Just like in China.

That would lower there birth rate in Israel & they would eventualy leave or jus diseaper. :D
I would opt for improving their TV reception and quality programming. It is known to work well in providing an alternative recreational activity.

[Womble]

Another tip:

The most powerful source of reference to use in tthe security fence related discussions- especially when your opponents draw out the ICJ ruling as their trump card, is the separate opinion of the ICJ judge Higgins. It's a really interesting piece. On one hand, Higgins voted in favor of the ruling that declared the barrier unlawful. On the other hand, in her "separate opinion" she demolishes every single argument of the case and uses rather strong language. Her own reasons for supporting the ruling are so obviously made up that I am pretty sure that she was somehow intimidated into voting the way she did.

Anyway, this (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwpframe.htm) is the link- and these are the quotes:

15. Addressing the reality that “the question of the construction of the wall was only one aspect of the Israeli‑Palestinian conflict”, the Court states that it “is indeed aware that the question of the wall is part of a greater whole, and it would take this circumstance carefully into account in any opinion it might give” (para. 54).

16. In fact, it never does so. There is nothing in the remainder of the Opinion that can be said to cover this point. Further, I find the “history” as recounted by the Court in paragraphs 71‑76 neither balanced nor satisfactory.

...it is now accepted that the Palestinian people are a “peoples” for purposes of self‑determination. But it seems to me quite detached from reality for the Court to find that it is the wall that presents a “serious impediment” to the exercise of this right. The real impediment is the apparent inability and/or unwillingness of both Israel and Palestine to move in parallel to secure the necessary conditions- that is, at one and the same time, for Israel to withdraw from Arab occupied territory and for Palestine to provide the conditions to allow Israel to feel secure in so doing. The simple point is underscored by the fact that if the wall had never been built, the Palestinians would still not yet have exercised their right to self‑determination. It seems to me both unrealistic and unbalanced for the Court to find that the wall (rather than “the larger problem”, which is beyond the question put to the Court for an opinion) is a serious obstacle to self‑determination.

31. Nor is this finding any more persuasive when looked at from a territorial perspective. As the Court states in paragraph 121, the wall does not at the present time constitute, per se, a de facto annexation. “Peoples” necessarily exercise their right to self‑determination within their own territory. Whatever may be the detail of any finally negotiated boundary, there can be no doubt, as is said in paragraph 78 of the Opinion, that Israel is in occupation of Palestinian territory. That territory is no more, or less, under occupation because a wall has been built that runs through it.

34. I also find unpersuasive the Court’s contention that, as the uses of force emanate from occupied territory, it is not an armed attack “by one State against another”. I fail to understand the Court’s view that an occupying Power loses the right to defend its own civilian citizens at home if the attacks emanate from the occupied territory- a territory which it has found not to have been annexed and is certainly “other than” Israel. Further, Palestine cannot be sufficiently an international entity to be invited to these proceedings, and to benefit from humanitarian law, but not sufficiently an international entity for the prohibition of armed attack on others to be applicable. This is formalism of an unevenhanded sort.

I hope you find it useful. Fight bravely :)

[AbedS]

I take issue with the wall on the basis of land grabbing. Even if it's a mile, or merely even 1 foot of land, it contributes nothing to a final solution. I know alot of you on this board would be glad if the whole Arab population of the Middle East were wiped out, but that is not an option.
I think the main underlying problem in this conflict is the fact that neither side can objectively look at itself. Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.

[KettleWhistle]

A lot of us on this board would be glad if the Arabs simply left us alone in our motherland, and minded their own business.

I don't care what you people do in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or Iraq as long is doesn't involve my people--the Jews.

[Womble]

I take issue with the wall on the basis of land grabbing

Look above. Even the ICJ had recognized that the barrier DOES NOT amount to de-facto land annexation.

That territory is no more, or less, under occupation because a wall has been built that runs through it.


Even if it's a mile, or merely even 1 foot of land, it contributes nothing to a final solution.
Ahem...please be so kind and find a term other than "final solution". That one's been a bit...compromised.


I know alot of you on this board would be glad if the whole Arab population of the Middle East were wiped out, but that is not an option.
Show me one such person here.


I think the main underlying problem in this conflict is the fact that neither side can objectively look at itself. Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.
Suppose- but there is also a big danger in the "both sides always guilty, regardless of circumstances" stance. It is no more moral than blindly defending one's cause.

[frizzer1]

I hope you find it useful. Fight bravely :)

Thank you Womble but I don't really think it will make any difference no matter what we say or do.
All of us know why there was such a strong reaction to the security fence.It had nothing to do with the fact that the wall did not follow the green line.It had nothing to do with the fact that some palestinians have faced hardship as a result of the wall ( and they have ).Had any other country facing the terror that Israel faced built a similar wall, there would have been no similar outcry.
It is because Israel is a jewish state.We all know that.Terrorists trying to murder jews have been dealt a major blow.And the world community doesn't seem to be happy about that because they accept the palestinians" right to engage in terror.They accept the pals right to "self defense" ie terror.And any action Israel takes that prevents Arab terror is condemned by the world body.
Targeted killings of terrorist leaders that avoid civilian deaths are condemned the world community.
Roadblocks that screen out terrorists are condemned.
Forays into pal territory to find terrorists are condemned.
Any security operation that affects the palestinians in any way will be condemned by the world community.
We all know it.And we all know why.
And this is coming from someone who has always accepted the right of the palestinians to have a state of their own where they can live in peace and security and that Israel is not always right and should be criticized for her behaviour at times.And not just by jews.

[AbedS]

OK, you're right about "final solution", where were my manners?
As much as we'd all like to think so, the ICJ really isn't an unbiased authority. There is never a 100% unbiased judiciary anywhere, period. Please forget about your unwavering support for Israel for a second and look at it from a morilty point of view. Try to emulate Socrates.
Regardless of the legal status of the Palestinian areas, the pragmatic approach is that it is THEIR land, regardless. In the end, there are only 2 solutions to this whole mess. 1 is the eradication of every single Muslims man woman, and child in the world, over 1 billion fo them, because genocide against the Palestinians would result in a fight to the death by every Muslim on the planet to save their brethren, the other is to treat the Palestinians like they're actual PEOPLE with human needs and desires and try to be as fair as possible. It's enough that most likely, any future Palestine would have 2 non-contigeous pieces of land as it's territory, which is bad enough.
Israel already got most of the Coastline, as well as most of the Historical sites, and great farmland, so don't be too greedy, have a little bit of compassion for those people.
Israel has a modern army, what do they have?

[frizzer1]

I take issue with the wall on the basis of land grabbing. Even if it's a mile, or merely even 1 foot of land, it contributes nothing to a final solution. I know alot of you on this board would be glad if the whole Arab population of the Middle East were wiped out, but that is not an option.
I think the main underlying problem in this conflict is the fact that neither side can objectively look at itself. Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.

Womble has already responded but I will say it again.Please don't use the term "final solution" on an Israeli forum.
And spare me the lectures.What the hell do you know about us? I don't want the arabs wiped out.I simply want them to leave us in peace.
And who said that Israel is perfect?
And I have a news flash for you.Anyone can mouth platitudes.Been done to death.
Why not just stick to the facts and forget the moralizing.You haven't exactly invented the wheel here.

[AbedS]

Thank you Womble but I don't really think it will make any difference no matter what we say or do.
All of us know why there was such a strong reaction to the security fence.It had nothing to do with the fact that the wall did not follow the green line.It had nothing to do with the fact that some palestinians have faced hardship as a result of the wall ( and they have ).Had any other country facing the terror that Israel faced built a similar wall, there would have been no similar outcry.
It is because Israel is a jewish state.We all know that.Terrorists trying to murder jews have been dealt a major blow.And the world community doesn't seem to be happy about that because they accept the palestinians" right to engage in terror.They accept the pals right to "self defense" ie terror.And any action Israel takes that prevents Arab terror is condemned by the world body.
Targeted killings of terrorist leaders that avoid civilian deaths are condemned the world community.
Roadblocks that screen out terrorists are condemned.
Forays into pal territory to find terrorists are condemned.
Any security operation that affects the palestinians in any way will be condemned by the world community.
We all know it.And we all know why.
And this is coming from someone who has always accepted the right of the palestinians to have a state of their own where they can live in peace and security and that Israel is not always right and should be criticized for her behaviour at times.And not just by jews.
Please, tell me why? Is it because of Anti- Semetism? My response is waa waa waa...
Rethink your whining for a second, my friend. Can it perhaps be because of Anti- Zionism? I think so. I'm sorry if you can't see it.

[Ariksan]

Relax, you are not an Anti-Zionist, you are just brainwashed.

Oh and btw... according to your hero Nasrallah one Jewish life is worth 450 muslims. So you will need at least 9 billion muslims to defeat the Jews.

[Reffo]

Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.It's not so much about good or bad. Nobody claims that the fence is a "good thing" but there is a definite need for it, otherwise more Israeli civilians would die. So once you acknowledge this need (I suppose you personally wouldn't ?), the next question is how and where should it be built ? Some of Israel's critics argue that if it must be built then it should be built on the borders of the old so called "Green Line". I am somewhat ambivalent about this, on the one hand, doing so could silence the critics (?) but on the other hand it would cost more, take longer to complete and may be less practical. I must admit that on balance, I can see why Israel decided to build it where it is. Firstly, because on past record, it does not matter what Israel does, it's critics and enemies criticize it anyway. Secondly, seeing that the building of the fence was forced on them by a cruel enemy, they are not really interested in minimising the impact of the fence on that same enemy. Why should they, it's war and it's a war that the Palestinians seemed to want to perpetrate to the bitter end. Israel was only showing them that there is a price to pay for them too....Oh, and by the way, the fence does not kill people (unlike the suicide bombers which it stops)....So, was Israel right or wrong ? Only time will tell.

[KettleWhistle]

It's not so much about good or bad. Nobody claims that the fence is a "good thing" but there is a definite need for it, otherwise more Israeli civilians would die.
I claim it is a good thing. It saves lives. That makes it a good thing.

Some of Israel's critics argue that if it must be built then it should be built on the borders of the old so called "Green Line".

The so-called "Green Line" is a former cease-fire line. It has no relevance to today's situation.

[Reffo]

I claim it is a good thing. It saves lives. That makes it a good thing.Yes, I just edited my post to show this, but overall I was saying that it is unfortunate that such a thing as the fence even needs to be considered. In that sense, it is a bad thing, if the palestinian terrorism did not exist, there would be no need for the fence.

[AbedS]

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc...
Please be honest about how we got to this point. Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromise.
The fence is fine, as long as it doesn't disrupt the lives of thousands of Palestinians. I applaude the actions and decisions of the court in this matter, although I think more can be done. If you want peace and security, then try not to defacate on the Palestinians too much.
Once again, I'm sorry about the Final Sloution thing, so please jst stop commenting on it.
And just so you don't discount my words because I'm an Islamo-Terrorist as one of you affectionately put it, I was in a perdominantly jewish Fraternity, My co-workers are Jewish, and the industry I'm in is predominantly Jewish. I am part of 3 interfaith group and I hold talks at local Mosques in my area on Israel's right to exist and trhe commonalities between Islam and Judiasm.
If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.

[Womble]

OK, you're right about "final solution", where were my manners?
It's not about manners. The use of corrupt language tends to corrupt thought, as noted by the great George Orwell. Which is why I prefer using accurate terms and advise others to do the same.


As much as we'd all like to think so, the ICJ really isn't an unbiased authority. There is never a 100% unbiased judiciary anywhere, period.
Agreed.


Please forget about your unwavering support for Israel for a second and look at it from a morilty point of view.
You probably weren't around when we were discussing it, but I hold to the opinion that morality is the wrong way to approach politics with. It is too subjective a criteria to be productive.


Try to emulate Socrates.
Regardless of the legal status of the Palestinian areas, the pragmatic approach is that it is THEIR land, regardless.
Why is it the pragmatic approach? By which criteria are those lands theirs, if the legal status is to be disregarded?


In the end, there are only 2 solutions to this whole mess. 1 is the eradication of every single Muslims man woman, and child in the world, over 1 billion fo them, because genocide against the Palestinians would result in a fight to the death by every Muslim on the planet to save their brethren, the other is to treat the Palestinians like they're actual PEOPLE with human needs and desires and try to be as fair as possible.
I am not at all sure what point you are trying to make here. I do not see anyone in the present company advocating genocide of all Muslims or all Palestinians. I also see no one suggesting that the Palestinians are not human and have no human needs. I'm afraid yours is a straw man argument.


It's enough that most likely, any future Palestine would have 2 non-contigeous pieces of land as it's territory, which is bad enough.
Why is it bad? The "contigeous" demand is largely a sham. The US, for example, has no problem controlling Alaska and Hawaii despite the lack of territorial linkage.


Israel already got most of the Coastline, as well as most of the Historical sites, and great farmland, so don't be too greedy, have a little bit of compassion for those people.
Well, it's not our fault really. The founders of Israel were ready to agree to any offer of an independent state, regardless of size and borders. If the Palestinians and the Arab League chose to turn down the original partition plan, they cannot blame us if the results turned bad for them.
Besides, what "great farmland"? The only good farmland in this neighborhood is the irrigated one. If the land on the Israeli side of the Green Line is more productive, it isn't because the land is better, it is because Israel has the most advanced drip irrigation technologies on the planet.


Israel has a modern army, what do they have?
Gangs of murderous psychos who blow up their women and children to kill women and children of the enemy. Oh wait, was that a rhetorical question? :rolleyes:

[Mira]

marhaba, AbedS.

I'm coming back into this conversation towards the end, so I don't know what has transpired in this thread lately, so I'm just responding to this last post of yours.

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc...

If what you mean by "occupation" includes the 1948 territory, then ok, I agree.

Please be honest about how we got to this point. Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromise.

I agree to some extent. Israel is in a stronger position to make compromises because Palestinian society is completely broken right now. Israel should make compromises (which it has) and the government should stop playing games and stick to the promises they have made to the Palestinians. In terms of military power, however, much of what Israel has available in terms of force cannot be used, while Palestinian terrorism is a powerful tool that cannot be completely stopped. Moreover, the Palestinian terrorist organizations are backed psychologically and financially by other Arab countries and the Persians.

The fence is fine, as long as it doesn't disrupt the lives of thousands of Palestinians. I applaude the actions and decisions of the court in this matter, although I think more can be done. If you want peace and security, then try not to defacate on the Palestinians too much.
Once again, I'm sorry about the Final Sloution thing, so please jst stop commenting on it.

There are some areas where Palestinian villages and Israeli villages are not more than a couple hundred meters away from each other and the Palestinian territory actually looks down on Israeli villages, which strategically gives the terrorists in those areas the vantage point for planning attacks. Qalqilia is one such place and it also happens to be a place where many of the suicide bombers have come from over the past couple of years. So you try to minimize the disruptions and inconveniences in people's lives, but at some point you have to decide on which side you want your "casualties." Since Israeli casualties are measured in lives and Palestinian casualties are measured in time and land, the decision has been to place life above land.

And just so you don't discount my words because I'm an Islamo-Terrorist as one of you affectionately put it, I was in a perdominantly jewish Fraternity, My co-workers are Jewish, and the industry I'm in is predominantly Jewish. I am part of 3 interfaith group and I hold talks at local Mosques in my area on Israel's right to exist and trhe commonalities between Islam and Judiasm.
If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.

I give you a lot of credit for that. I have participated in interfaith dialogue groups in the past and I found them sort of bizzare for anyone who is not over age 70 or younger than 14. Sitting around quetly and listening respectfully as people tell stories about how they have been marganalized by each other, followed up by examples of how much we have in common seems like such an unnatural thing for Jews and Arabs to do. I have two very close Palestinian friends. We keep a lot of our thoughts on the conflict to ourselves because we know exactly how each other thinks at this point and then on occassion we just let it out. We do not see eye-to-eye on the conflict almost at all, but eventually after enough screaming and yelling, we get around to talking about the personal problems in our lives that we can deal with and we help each other deal with those. But I suppose when contact is minimal, you have to start someplace. But the style of those groups are sometimes artifically polite and superficial and that is just not the way we our People are.

[Reffo]

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc... This chicken and egg argument has already been discussed repetitively on this forum. So, the only thing I will reiterate is that the occupation is the RESULT of terrorism and war by the Arabs. Just think about it, in 1948 there was NO OCCUPATION but a war was started by the Arabs and the Palestinians against Israel, the rest is history.

Please be honest about how we got to this point. Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromise.
The fence is fine, as long as it doesn't disrupt the lives of thousands of Palestinians. I applaude the actions and decisions of the court in this matter, although I think more can be done. If you want peace and security, then try not to defacate on the Palestinians too much.I agree that BOTH sides need to compromise and I think Barak gave this a good try. So you tell me how was he rewarded ? Arafat told him to "Go to the Hell" (quote) and the Intiffada was started. OK, so you might say that we have to start again and I would agree with you but unless BOTH sides try harder to KEEP JUST TALKING until a solution is found, instead of using violence and terrorism as a tool, the new attempt will fail as well.

If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.Yes, we all need to do that.

[KettleWhistle]

If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.

If you want to talk about vehement and hateful beliefs, perhaps you ought to review a few of your posts. You accused majority of the members of this forum of hating Arabs, of being racists, of desiring genocide, of hating Muslims, and elsewhere you stated that you wouldn't be suprised at Israelis feeling that way. Aside from being completely ignorant, your views of us are outright insulting.

[Reffo]

Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromiseThat's great but unfortunately many others don't seem to share your common sense and good intentions, as an example just look at this thread Click Here. So, you can see that in order to make peace and compromise BOTH parties must be willing to do so. You cannot make peace and you cannot compromise until you have a partner for peace and compromise.

[Mediocrates]

The Palestinians tend to forget half of the name of the security fence. They have a dubious claim to the fence part at best and ignore totally the security aspect of it. I tend to not bother with people who knowingly ignore that half in order to push their own agenda. Through some process, call it magic, they would have you believe they understand what living behind the 'fence' is. I would suggest they experience the getting blown up part too.

[AbedS]

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...
To the disappointment of many, it is not like that. I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.
Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.
Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again. It is their goal that the israeli flag stand for something other than the talit. They want the star to be Israel eretz, and the stripes to signify the Nile and the Euphrates. You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats. These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation. These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.
These are the same people who continue to this very day to derail any hope of peace in the Middle east.
I can be honest and say that Islam and Arabs have a way to go still before they resolve their issues, and we're working on it. But please don't tell me that it is all one sided. Remember, the media will only tell you the side that best fits our ally's interests. Check out Amnesty international for a list of atrocities committed in Israel's name by fanatics and the government.

[Ariksan]

Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land

How comes? Do we get the east bank of Israel back? Jordan alone counts of more than 60% of "Palestine".

[AbedS]

How comes? Do we get the east bank of Israel back? Jordan alone counts of more than 60% of "Palestine".
huh? Is this some kind of riddle? Please xplain, unless I'm just really tired.

[Reffo]

Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...The terrorists are doing it because they want to FORCE what they want on everyone. They want to DICTATE the outcome. They DON'T WANT TO COMPROMISE. AbedS, the fact that you are trying to make excuses for them makes me think that despite what you said you too condone their methods. Understand this, Israel will never stop doing the things that you criticise so long as your terrorists will not stop their murders and especially, it will keep on building the fence in order to stop your terrorists. They may not end up with full success in stopping the terrorists but fighting the terrorists is preferrable to giving in to them because that means the destruction of Israel.

Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, You better explain how you calculated this 7% because that certainly does not sound right to me..Oh and Jerusalem was certainly NOT off the table because Barak did offer an arrangement to share the city. You better go back and re-read your history book. This is what CNN said about it in September 6, 2000:

"Before the collapse of the Camp David talks in July, Barak was seen as willing to make major concessions to the Palestinians, including some form of autonomy for Palestinian-controlled areas of Jerusalem. But Arafat has insisted on full Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, including holy sites in the old quarter of the city -- a position which the Clinton administration has made no secret it sees as inflexible."

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/09/06/us.mideast/index.html

[Reffo]

By the way AbedS, you seem to have skipped over this:

This chicken and egg argument has already been discussed repetitively on this forum. So, the only thing I will reiterate is that the occupation is the RESULT of terrorism and war by the Arabs. Just think about it, in 1948 there was NO OCCUPATION but a war was started by the Arabs and the Palestinians against Israel, the rest is history.Any thoughts on this ? OK, I think you will give me the stock standard answer that it's not relevant...it's history.....it was too long ago.

But I say to you that it is relevant because it shows everyone what this conflict is really all about and that is that the Arabs always wanted Israel destroyed and they still have not given up on this. Despite this, you claim that Israel should just forget about it, forget about the ongoing terrorism that is going on to this day and should "like good boys" allow the establishment of a Palestinian state unconditionally even though the terrorism is not stopped by them. Do you know what will really happen if they allow that ? No ? Well I will tell you: The Palestinians will convince themselves that they FORCED the Israelis to surrender and that the Israelis are weak and that it is possible to defeat them, so they will continue the war. Again you will say, so what ? Israel is stronger and can defeat them. But you are ignoring the damage that they would inflict before they are defeated. Just look at the death and havoc that they were able to inflict even from their current disadvantaged situation, so it is not hard to imagine what they could do if they could get hold of heavy weapons and planes once they become independent. I suspect that they will make September 11 look like a sunday school picnic before the Israelis will manage to stop them.

[Mediocrates]

How comes? Do we get the east bank of Israel back? Jordan alone counts of more than 60% of "Palestine".


They were offered 75% of the Mandate. They sat down in the dirt and banged their bowls until they got 87%. Figuring that the remaining 13% was probably not unattainable they got off their haunches to wage Jihad and got their heads handed to them at which time they sat back down in the dust and continue to bang their bowls to this day. Now even accounting for what will perhaps be a 5-8% adjustment of the West Bank you'll see that the Arabs wind up, for their 4 failed wars, innumerable smaller wars, endless terrorism, and riding at the front of a movement of world wide racism, antisemitism and genocial rage against Jews not seen since WW2, for all of that they wind up with approximately 83% of the total Mandate. Not too shabby and it' a deal they should take because the window of opportunity is closing. The world operates in cycles and the faceless technocrats of the PLO today have none of the Rive Gauche charm of mass murderer Arafat. If they don't manage to plunge themselves into civil war in the next 3 years the world will disengage from the Palestinian 'problem' which will finally be seen to be a monster of their own creation.

[Mira]

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...
To the disappointment of many, it is not like that. I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.
Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.
Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again. It is their goal that the israeli flag stand for something other than the talit. They want the star to be Israel eretz, and the stripes to signify the Nile and the Euphrates. You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats. These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation. These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.
These are the same people who continue to this very day to derail any hope of peace in the Middle east.
I can be honest and say that Islam and Arabs have a way to go still before they resolve their issues, and we're working on it. But please don't tell me that it is all one sided. Remember, the media will only tell you the side that best fits our ally's interests. Check out Amnesty international for a list of atrocities committed in Israel's name by fanatics and the government.

Abed,

You are completely full of it! There are so many lies in this last statement of yours that it is hard to take you seriously. You should go back to the yahoo message boards and post your hate where the ignorant are welcome. You aren't fooling anybody anymore.

[KettleWhistle]

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Specific examples please.

[scattergood]

abdes:

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...
To the disappointment of many, it is not like that. I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.
Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.
Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again. It is their goal that the israeli flag stand for something other than the talit. They want the star to be Israel eretz, and the stripes to signify the Nile and the Euphrates. You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats. These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation. These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.
These are the same people who continue to this very day to derail any hope of peace in the Middle east.
I can be honest and say that Islam and Arabs have a way to go still before they resolve their issues, and we're working on it. But please don't tell me that it is all one sided. Remember, the media will only tell you the side that best fits our ally's interests. Check out Amnesty international for a list of atrocities committed in Israel's name by fanatics and the government.

I don't know what everybody else on this board thinks about suicide bombers, but I'll tell you specifically what I think:

I think that for 40 years or more, the media, schools, parents, newspapers, popular music, government and every other information outlet that children are exposed to spew a message of hate. Arabs are taught that Jews and Israel are the cause of every one of their problems. The world is against the House of Islam, they are told, the House of War is here to kill you. The Jews are here to kill you, they will dishonor you, they will rape your women, take your land, and humiliate you. Children are taught that Islam is the only defense to the attack of Jews and Israel. From the time you are able to speak, you are told that the Jews destroyed your home, your parents home, and are the cause of all subjugation, poverty, humiliation and every ill thing that has happened to you.

Then into this incendiary society, an Israeli soldier looks at your sister, or makes you wait in a check point, or just seems stronger and bigger than you. You feel humiliated, doubly so because you are told that Islam is the true saviour of the world and everybody who isn't Muslim wants to kill you. And you are 19, filled with these messages of hate and intolerance, hormones racing through your body, affecting how you think. And along comes this guy, who really hates Israel, wants the land wants to kill the Jews and he says, "I can take care of your parents with money, money they don't have because of the Jews, and you can reach Paradise, you want to reach Paradise don't you. You've heard about it all your life. All you have to do is blow yourself up in the bus station or bar. Kill the Jews, they are the cause of your problems, they are the root of all evil. You will be serving Allah if you do it, you will honor your parents, you will bring honor to your self" It's like a spark to a tub of gasoline.

I don't think everybody wants to kill themselves, that everybody wants to do evil. But in a population of 3M, just 0.01% is 300 people a year. 1/100th of 1 percent is all that is needed for nearly 1 suicide bomber a day to try wreck any peace process.

I ask you, why hasn't any suicide bombers been the children of government officials? Or the government officials themselves? Don't they really believe in it?

[Luke90]

Specific examples please.
There have been people on this board expressing wishes that all Muslims should be killed.
For example, CanDo (on the Tsunami thread) said he wished that there had been a larger Tsunami which killed only Muslims.

You are completely full of it! There are so many lies in this last statement of yours that it is hard to take you seriously. You should go back to the yahoo message boards and post your hate where the ignorant are welcome. You aren't fooling anybody anymore.
Please don't start trying to get rid of him already.
You may think his opinion is hugely biased and misguided but if you aren't here to debate with people what are you here for?

[KettleWhistle]

There have been people on this board expressing wishes that all Muslims should be killed.
For example, CanDo (on the Tsunami thread) said he wished that there had been a larger Tsunami which killed only Muslims.

First of all, as ridiculous as that post was, he did not advocate genocide, nor did he imply that Muslims are inferior to others. Additionally, there were several responses that addressed and condemed his posts and that line of thinking.

That said, do you really agree with AbdeS' accusations that many members here advocate genocide, racism, or promote the ideas of Muslims being inferior, or that such is present in this thread, or others that he/she addressed?

[Mediocrates]

It always amazes me the people who are in love with debateful chatter for its own sake. Maybe it's boredom.

[Mira]

It always amazes me the people who are in love with debateful chatter for its own sake. Maybe it's boredom.

took the words right out of my mouth...

[Leon]

Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...

See Palestinian media, daily mosque sermons and schools & ARab media/society at large -- where the "protocols of the elders of Zion" and "mein kampf" are number one smash hits.


So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.

Can you ask with a straight face why people from East timor, Tibet, Aceh, Sudan and other places (where people are far, far more oppressed-- and there is no comparison to the type of suffering they endure to the type palestinians endure) dont blow themselves up?


Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again.

Yes, day in and day out they preach that "Muslims are the sons of pigs and monkeys" who deserve to be thrown into the sea.


You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. [QUOTE]They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs".

Yep kinda like this -

http://www.hamasonline.com/Gallery/gallery_big/000862.jpg

those "fanatical Jewish settlers" are starting to resemble the KKK in their flashy white hoods.

[Luke90]

First of all, as ridiculous as that post was, he did not advocate genocide, nor did he imply that Muslims are inferior to others. Additionally, there were several responses that addressed and condemed his posts and that line of thinking.
Firstly, there definitely was a clear implication that Arabs are inferior to others:
Arabs prefer killing others to helping others.
When CanDo complained that there hadn't been much help when America was hit by hurricanes Northlander pointed out that there weren't anywhere near 70,000 people killed. CanDo's reply was:
Do you count Moslems as people?

His first comment about killing Moslems was:
I do feel bad for the innocent victims of the tsunami, especially those from America, Israel and our other allies. I hope that the next tsunami is more selective and only targets moslems.

Followed by:
As long as the moslem and Arab worlds celebrate and/or fund the deaths of Jews like the Hatuels, I will celebrate the deaths of moslems.

Reading through the entirety of the next few pages there were only two people who really condemened what he said (and carried on repeating).


That said, do you really agree with AbdeS' accusations that many members here advocate genocide, racism, or promote the ideas of Muslims being inferior, or that such is present in this thread, or others that he/she addressed?
CanDo is the only one I've seen openly wish death indiscriminately on all muslims. However, suggestions that Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians are generally inferior aren't unknown.

[KettleWhistle]

CanDo is the only one I've seen openly wish death indiscriminately on all muslims.
Wishing death and advocating genocide are two different things. And as you acknoledged, he is the only one.
However, suggestions that Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians are generally inferior aren't unknown.
Aren't unknown, but they are not representative of the forum. It's like to say that the roughly 5,000 members of KKK are representative of the 293 millions of Americans.

[Mediocrates]

I remember once three young men tried to run me over with their car. When that failed they got out chased me down on foot and proceeded to hit me with a bike chain. Seems I didn't get the memo. Ah well. In either case I really didn't have the time or inclination to remind them that I didn't hate their class, race, ethnicity, only them. Pity too since shortly afterwards two of them drowned under mysterious circumstances and I never got the chance to remind them of that polite distinction. So here is message. People should send their complaints on a piece of paper. I'll be sure to write my apology, wrap a rock in it and send it back. And Please, if you don't know how to swim don't go near the water.

[eastbank2]

Hi Womble,

Sure it does.

Have you ever heard of "Building a Fence around Torah"? It means that you do even extra things to protect the holiness of the mitzvot. There is also a joke about it: Why do we build a fence around Torah? To make a SAFER TORAH !!!! (The people have to understand some Hebrew to get the pun)
The word SAFER in Hebrew means 'Book' or 'Book of' and the word SAFER in English is known by everybody here who reads English.

You are talking about building a fence for security.

What is really needed for the building of a fence for our security is an aliyah enmasse from these millions of diaspora Jews to settle all the Land of Israel with populations that no Israeli government would dare expell, or even have the slightest thought of expelling for political expediency.

Mass aliyah is truly building our security fence around our claim to our God given Land.


how are you any different from a muslim using the quran to defend "arabs god given right to palestine"?

[SteveK]

how are you any different from a muslim using the quran to defend "arabs god given right to palestine"?

eastbank2,

Here is a great book for you to read with answers to your questions:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

[AbedS]

So I may make a few things clear.
1- I am a Muslim, I'm also an Arab, and beyond that, I'm an American. For me , those 3 things are equal, none above the other. I chose to take for myself the most exemplary ideals of all 3 identites and make them mine.

2- I weep (yes, weep) when I see suicide bombings in Israel. Dead Palestinians evoke the same response.

3- I was attacked for being a Muslim, no other reason. I was jumped for being who I am by 3 guys, blindsided if you will, and if you saw me on the street you would never know what background I am.

4- Certain people who think that one group of people is inferior to any other single themselves out as less than the average man or woman, whatever their religious beliefs.

That being said, let's follow this path wherever it leads. I can acknowledge mistakes by Muslims and Arabs, but I will not sit idly by while my beliefs are bashed by people whose only motivation is eggrandizement of their own ideology through the attacks on someone else's. If you want to stand out and make yourself great, then do it through your own actions, not through the inaction and misdeeds of others.

I AM working hard to change my world through understanding and offering a more attractive alternative. Can the same be said of some of you?

[AbedS]

eastbank2,

Here is a great book for you to read with answers to your questions:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

I'm familiar with the book, although I admit I never read it. just a question, though. using the typical Jewish arguments for rights to the land in Israel, can't the same arguments be used for Native Americans? After all, their spirituality also grants them ownership of the land. Is it because their faith is considered backwards that no one takes up their cause?

[rhodescholar]

This post is silly and contradicts itself:

As much as we'd all like to think so, the ICJ really isn't an unbiased authority. There is never a 100% unbiased judiciary anywhere, period.

The court refused to hear the israeli side at all. Thats soviet-style court-room procedures. No wonder noone with a brain gave this court ruling any value.

Please forget about your unwavering support for Israel for a second and look at it from a morilty point of view. Try to emulate Socrates.
Regardless of the legal status of the Palestinian areas, the pragmatic approach is that it is THEIR land, regardless.

Says who? You? If israel had any brains after winning in 67 they would have done what EVERY OTHER nation on this planet has ever done in a defensive war they won- expelled the enemies. Why they didnt do that in 67 i cant fathom, and i wondered a great deal at the time what on earth they were thinking.

The pal arabs supported the panarab war against israel wholeheartedly, a fact you cannot deny if the truth is important. As such, they forfeited any rights to this land, as they became enemy supporters and belligerents.

The UN resolution declares israel needs to return some territories, not all of them. The authors of this resolution have declared this is so many times.

In the end, there are only 2 solutions to this whole mess. 1 is the eradication of every single Muslims man woman, and child in the world, over 1 billion fo them, because genocide against the Palestinians would result in a fight to the death by every Muslim on the planet to save their brethren, .....Israel has a modern army, what do they have?

You say all 1 billion muslims would come to their aid, then ask what do the pals have? I guess you just answered that question yourself, correct? The 400 million plus + hostile neighboring arabs, and another 600 million non-arab muslims.

All trying to destroy a tiny jewish state, how pathetic.

Let me ask you something mr enlightened. What civilization or people have the arab muslims NOT tried to conquer or destroy over the past 1,500 years that lives in the middle east?

Its time the arabs learned that there are other people with rights to be left alone and not live under their control.

[rhodescholar]

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc...
Please be honest about how we got to this point. .

I read posts like this and spend more time deciding whether to bother responding, or just saying the person is so devoid of knowledge of the conflict that its pointless.

For your statement to be true, that would mean that the terrorism by pal arabs began (or increased sharply) in 1967, or at some point after the 67 war.

Unfortunately, you are completely WRONG.

What you need to do asap is get your a** into a library and look up the NY Times, Reuters, and AP articles on what the arabs were doing from 1948 through 1967. My dear friend, there were more individual acts of terrorism perpetratred by the arabs then there was AFTER 1967.

Do you understand my point now?

The occupation is imply the latest in a long line of excuses by your fellow arab muslims. I have lived through all of them over the past 60+ years, and frankly, they dont mean much to me. It all comes down to a simple fact, the arab muslims simply will not tolerate another group rising to control its own destiny in the middle east. Once you understand that point, everything else is just garbage.

[rhodescholar]

Yet another silly post:

I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.

So then you absolutely need to explain why only muslims commit suicide bombings when oppressed.

Tibetans, maronite christians, chinese, cubans, columbians etc etc do NOT commit suicide bombings - or even strike back in some instances with violence at all - yet it seems that the arab muslim has some unique privileged ultra-high "victim" status above all others whereby they can suicide bomb children.

Do you get it? Other than muslims, no one else who is oppressed uses these tactics in political disputes. Tell me why is that?

Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.

Can you not read?

This is utter BS. Clinton said, and was supported afterwards by other aides at the meetings, that Arafat's refusal to budge on the right of return is what ended the camp david/taba talks. Period.

As for air rights, these were to be phased in over a 5 year period iirc. You absolutely need to research more before posting garbage like this.

Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again.

More stupidity. Who cares what they say/want? If they had such powerful political control, israel would not be leaving gaza in a few months.

And amazing how noone is giving israel one iota of credit for doing this. Its the same arab muslim cr^p, give us more, more, more.



They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats.

Holy smoke, next we will hear about the US Liberty. Any more conspiracy theories to send our way?

These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation.

If you say this again, i will put you on ignore, since you clearly are not reading posts that correct you, which indicates you might be the moderators posing/takeo with new ID, etc.

France built israel's reactor in the early 1960s. France built the reactor. Should i say it again?

These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.

You are completely ignorant. Israel entered lebanon to stop daily PLO shelling/terror attacks on its northern towns. Can you buy a fact for a change?

[golani]

[QUOTE=AbedS]So I may make a few things clear.
1- I am a Muslim, I'm also an Arab, and beyond that, I'm an American. For me , those 3 things are equal, none above the other. I chose to take for myself the most exemplary ideals of all 3 identites and make them mine.



Congrats,we had guessed it

2- I weep (yes, weep) when I see suicide bombings in Israel. Dead Palestinians evoke the same response.



Reassuring,you are still a human being




3- I was attacked for being a Muslim, no other reason. I was jumped for being who I am by 3 guys, blindsided if you will, and if you saw me on the street you would never know what background I am.




Welcome to the club,in Belgium and France, it happens everyday to Jews



4- Certain people who think that one group of people is inferior to any other single themselves out as less than the average man or woman, whatever their religious beliefs.




Yes ,see the "holy Kuran"
-christians and jews are inferior to muslims
-Men are superior to women
-Master is superior to slave
In particular,5th surath(from medina) is particularily apalling


That being said, let's follow this path wherever it leads. I can acknowledge mistakes by Muslims and Arabs, but I will not sit idly by while my beliefs are bashed by people whose only motivation is eggrandizement of their own ideology through the attacks on someone else's. If you want to stand out and make yourself great, then do it through your own actions, not through the inaction and misdeeds of others.

I AM working hard to change my world through understanding and offering a more attractive alternative. Can the same be said of some of you?



Yes ,become atheist,christian,sikh ,follower of zarahustra and stop following a death cult

(Personal quote,I can befriend a bad muslim,I will keep away from a good one)

[SteveK]

I'm familiar with the book, although I admit I never read it. just a question, though. using the typical Jewish arguments for rights to the land in Israel, can't the same arguments be used for Native Americans? After all, their spirituality also grants them ownership of the land. Is it because their faith is considered backwards that no one takes up their cause?

Hi AbedS,

It is very worthwhile for you and eastbank2 to read the book:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

Rabbi Kramer also discusses in one of the chapters: "The Claim of Ishmael".
As to the often repeated comparison to the American Indians, this is not the book to find the development of such a thesis.

For the Jews, it's not sufficient that we just quote from the Torah about our ownership for the Land of Israel from our God given everlasting inheritance.
We must actually claim the Land of Israel as a united sovereign Jewish nation, and as united we must bring the Living God of Israel to defend our claim.

We Jews are neither the united sovereign nation, nor united to bring God to defend our claim.

Though, Rabbi Kramer's book puts Jewish thinking here in Israel and in the diaspora on the right track toward such unification, no book can replace the national Torah leadership so desperately needed.

Do you or eastbank2 know from where such true Shepherds of Israel will emerge?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Here is a great book for you to read with answers to your questions:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

If you could give a brief summary or thesis of the book and how it would answer y questions it would help greatly. Currently I have 'Arab and a Jew' on my reading list, which looks much more interesting. Your website looked like religious preaching. If the extra 45 minutes given to the religious folk 'to pray' before every meal, while the rest of the machlaka is forced to clean the bathrooms, was not enough to convince me to return to the torah, i dont know if rabbi kramer will be able to.

[SteveK]

If you could give a brief summary or thesis of the book and how it would answer y questions it would help greatly. Currently I have 'Arab and a Jew' on my reading list, which looks much more interesting. Your website looked like religious preaching. If the extra 45 minutes given to the religious folk 'to pray' before every meal, while the rest of the machlaka is forced to clean the bathrooms, was not enough to convince me to return to the torah, i dont know if rabbi kramer will be able to.

eastbank2,

Read the book.

What do you mean by "to convince me to return to Torah"?

Are you shopping around now for a new identity?

[eastbank2]

Welcome to the club,in Belgium and France, it happens everyday to Jews)
Muslims are also the victims of extreme right violence in these countries


4- Certain people who think that one group of people is inferior to any other single themselves out as less than the average man or woman, whatever their religious beliefs.




Yes ,see the "holy Kuran"
-christians and jews are inferior to muslims
-Men are superior to women
-Master is superior to slave
In particular,5th surath(from medina) is particularily apalling)

-the bible did not have a chance to express any inferiority in the christian or islamic religions. But considering you consider islam a 'death cult', it is at least existent in some of its followers.
-is there such great equality between man and women with in the orthodox jewish community?
-slaves were existent in the bible as well


That being said, let's follow this path wherever it leads. I can acknowledge mistakes by Muslims and Arabs, but I will not sit idly by while my beliefs are bashed by people whose only motivation is eggrandizement of their own ideology through the attacks on someone else's. If you want to stand out and make yourself great, then do it through your own actions, not through the inaction and misdeeds of others.

I AM working hard to change my world through understanding and offering a more attractive alternative. Can the same be said of some of you?



Yes ,become atheist,christian,sikh ,follower of zarahustra and stop following a death cult

(Personal quote,I can befriend a bad muslim,I will keep away from a good one)

I know many good israeli arab muslims. And they are good friends.

[SteveK]

I know many good israeli arab muslims. And they are good friends.

eastbank2,

Though to whom do you identify?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Read the book.

What do you mean by "to convince me to return to Torah"?

Are you shopping around now for a new identity?

What new identity? I identify with israelis. I am not religious nor are 80% of israelis, nor were the founders of the state. . I do not believe in religious scripture. The phrase 'return to the torah' can be exchanged to 'lachzor b'tshovah'.

It is not so easy to 'read the book' in tiranoot.

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Though to whom do you identify?

the nationality of the hebrew people, and that is what it says in my taodat zehoot. Does that prevent me from being friends with israeli arabs?

[SteveK]

What new identity? I identify with israelis. I am not religious nor are 80% of israelis, nor were the founders of the state. . I do not believe in religious scripture. The phrase 'return to the torah' can be exchanged to 'lachzor b'tshovah'.

It is not so easy to 'read the book' in tiranoot.


eastbank2,

So, wait for the national Torah leadership to emerge here in Israel as I am.
But, has your identity crisis got something to do with your affinity to Arab culture?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

So, wait for the national Torah leadership to emerge here in Israel as I am.
But, has your identity crisis got something to do with your affinity to Arab culture?

where do i have an identity crisis?
I have no affinity to arabs, I have an affinity to people who are nice and helpful to me. Since I am a student of the arabic language, I found that many arabs were quite helpful, and friendly. I found that contrary to what i learned on israelforum, all arabs are not ticking time bombs awaiting the destruction of the jewish people.

[eastbank2]

[QUOTE=SteveK]eastbank2,

So, wait for the national Torah leadership to emerge here in Israel as I am.
QUOTE]


I am a member of shinui. in other words I am doing everything possible to prevent that.

[SteveK]

where do i have an identity crisis?
I have no affinity to arabs, I have an affinity to people who are nice and helpful to me. Since I am a student of the arabic language, I found that many arabs were quite helpful, and friendly. I found that contrary to what i learned on israelforum, all arabs are not ticking time bombs awaiting the destruction of the jewish people.


eastbank2,

Is that why you have no affinity to Torah observant Jews because they are not nice and not helpful to you, and would not advance your career path in some application of the Arabic language?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Is that why you have no affinity to Torah observant Jews because they are not nice and not helpful to you, and would not advance your career path in some application of the Arabic language?

who said i have no affinity to ttorah observant jews? I just have not had much contact to them. That perhaps might change in the next 3 years.

[SteveK]

who said i have no affinity to ttorah observant jews? I just have not had much contact to them. That perhaps might change in the next 3 years.



How will that change in the next 3 years?

[eastbank2]

How will that change in the next 3 years?

kravi units tend to be more religious than jobniks proportionally.

[SteveK]

kravi units tend to be more religious than jobniks proportionally.

eastbank2,

What do you want to be when you grow up?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

What do you want to be when you grow up?

international lawyer

[SteveK]

international lawyer

And, how then will you help the Jewish People grow up and mature into being a united sovereign nation here in Israel?

[eastbank2]

And, how then will you help the Jewish People grow up and mature into being a united sovereign nation here in Israel?

the jewish people are already a sovereign nation. Being in a voluntary unit in the IDF, I think I am helping maintain this status.

[SteveK]

the jewish people are already a sovereign nation. Being in a voluntary unit in the IDF, I think I am helping maintain this status.


Millions of diaspora Jews remaining tells me that we are not yet a united sovereign nation.

[eastbank2]

Millions of diaspora Jews remaining tells me that we are not yet a united sovereign nation.


There are millions of chinese people that live 'in diaspora' outside of china. Does this mean china is not a united sovereign nation?
Also, if it werent for the millions of diaspora jews voting in america, there would be billions less dollars in Israel.

[SteveK]

There are millions of chinese people that live 'in diaspora' outside of china. Does this mean china is not a sovereign nation?
Also, if it werent for the millions of diaspora jews voting in america, there would be billions less dollars in Israel.


Millions of those Chinese people living 'in diaspora' like America don't teach the Chinese living in China to be better Chinese in America than they can be in China. American Jews teach Israelis that they can be even better Jews in America than in Israel.

How many billions of dollars do you think that the American Jews could bring with them on aliyah for investment in building the Jewish Homeland, if they liquidated all their communities' assets now being invested in making the four walls of their Jewish identity in suburban America?

[eastbank2]

Millions of those Chinese people living 'in diaspora' like America don't teach the Chinese living in China to be better Chinese in America than they can be in China. American Jews teach Israelis that they can be even better Jews in America than in Israel.

How many billions of dollars do you think that the American Jews could bring with them on aliyah for investment in building the Jewish Homeland, if they liquidated all their communities' assets now being invested in making the four walls of their Jewish identity in suburban America?


American jews teach israelis that they could be better jews in America???? How is this?

'Millions of chinese living in america dont teach the chinese living in china to be better chinese in america'? I dont know how you came up with these statements. but I would wager that proportionally chinese americans are much more likely to invite fellow chinese to live the american dream, than american jews-- who if anything advocate aliya.

Im sure american jews could bring much in investment, but Im sure it would not equal the yearly support which the US government continues to give.

[SteveK]

American jews teach israelis that they could be better jews in America???? How is this?

'Millions of chinese living in america dont teach the chinese living in china to be better chinese in america'? I dont know how you came up with these statements. but I would wager that proportionally chinese americans are much more likely to invite fellow chinese to live the american dream, than american jews-- who if anything advocate aliya.

Im sure american jews could bring much in investment, but Im sure it would not equal the yearly support which the US government continues to give.

I see that you are very far away from Jewish religious movements. Religious movements are source of Jewish identity in America from cradle to grave.
It's the Jewish religious movements which are divisive to the unity of the Jewish People as one sovereign nation. The four walls of a Jerusalem synagogue and yeshiva are the same four walls of a Brooklyn synagogue and yeshiva.

Are you that proud of the American Jews transplanting the Jewish heritage to Christian homelands? Does your Shinui party get a lot of donations from diaspora Jews? Why should we stop in getting such financial help from the American Christians,- let's ask them to send their kids to staff our army, and then you won't have to worry about your tiranoot.

[eastbank2]

I see that you are very far away from Jewish religious movements. Religious movements are source of Jewish identity in America from cradle to grave.
It's the Jewish religious movements which are divisive to the unity of the Jewish People as one sovereign nation. The four walls of a Jerusalem synagogue and yeshiva are the same four walls of a Brooklyn synagogue and yeshiva.

Are you that proud of the American Jews transplanting the Jewish heritage to Christian homelands? Does your Shinui party get a lot of donations from diaspora Jews? Why should we stop in getting such financial help from the American Christians,- let's ask them to send their kids to staff our army, and then you won't have to worry about your tiranoot.


You say that religious movements are the source of jewish identity. I think zionism is, and I dont consider zionism a religious movement.

I didnt quite understand the second paragraph. But Ill answer as best as possible. 1. i dont see how american jews transplanted the jewish heritage to christian lands. 2. I dont know the source of shinui donations 3. The financial help i was talking about comes from diaspora jews. And why would christian americans serve in the israeli army?

[SteveK]

You say that religious movements are the source of jewish identity. I think zionism is, and I dont consider zionism a religious movement.

I didnt quite understand the second paragraph. But Ill answer as best as possible. 1. i dont see how american jews transplanted the jewish heritage to christian lands. 2. I dont know the source of shinui donations 3. The financial help i was talking about comes from diaspora jews. And why would christian americans serve in the israeli army?


No, eastbank2, Zionism is not the source of Jewish identity. Jewish identity was long established before the Zionist movement. Zionism is the movement for Jewish identity to again realize its connection to Israel through the sovereign Jewish Homeland. Yes, Zionism is not a religious movement.

When Jews can celebrate Passover in Brooklyn and tell the world in all seriousness about God taking the Jewish People out of Egyptian bondage and into their own land, and yet not make aliyah, that's one example of transplanting Jewish heritage to Christian Homelands, and even making the Living God of Israel into just a Passover storybook myth.

The American Jews have problems raising enough money for their own self-aggrandizing organizations, and they use Israel as the banner for their own fundraising. The national budget of Israel depends on these diaspora Jews? The money for expelling Jews from their land here depends on a budget allowance by these American Jews? And, are you really under such an illusion that any U.S. investment here is only because of the Jewish lobby? And, if Jews like you can fight for another Arab state to be created, while tearing apart the Land of Israel, then why shouldn't American Christian kids come over here and fight for the Jewish homeland? Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and even our people. So, why shouldn't America throw a few of their kids into the fire here, like we keep throwing ours, in a "peace process", to help America appease its oil suppliers?

[eastbank2]

No, eastbank2, Zionism is not the source of Jewish identity. Jewish identity was long established before the Zionist movement. Zionism is the movement for Jewish identity to again realize its connection to Israel through the sovereign Jewish Homeland. Yes, Zionism is not a religious movement.

When Jews can celebrate Passover in Brooklyn and tell the world in all seriousness about God taking the Jewish People out of Egyptian bondage and into their own land, and yet not make aliyah, that's one example of transplanting Jewish heritage to Christian Homelands, and even making the Living God of Israel into just a Passover storybook myth.

The American Jews have problems raising enough money for their own self-aggrandizing organizations, and they use Israel as the banner for their own fundraising. The national budget of Israel depends on these diaspora Jews? The money for expelling Jews from their land here depends on a budget allowance by these American Jews? And, are you really under such an illusion that any U.S. investment here is only because of the Jewish lobby? And, if Jews like you can fight for another Arab state to be created, while tearing apart the Land of Israel, then why shouldn't American Christian kids come over here and fight for the Jewish homeland? Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and even our people. So, why shouldn't America throw a few of their kids into the fire here, like we keep throwing ours, in a "peace process", to help America appease its oil suppliers?


Obviously the jewish identity was long present before zionism. The jewish identity was present during the first israel, obviously there was no need for izionism then. Zionism of this century is hebrew nationalism. Considering that the majority of jews today are not religious, yet still identify with the jewish nationality shows what the true source of the hebrew nationality is.
Secondly the money for expelling jews from their lands is only a fraction of the total american aid. In any case I am all for leaving the gaza jews put, just dont come crying when the gazian jews dont have tzahal spending millions of americas dollars each year to protect them. See how fast they will stay if it is not israeli soldiers knocking on their doors, but khan nunis residents. Expelling the jews is for the betterment of the israeli state, just like expelling arabs was for the betterment of the state 55 years ago.

As far as the last paragraph, american jews are not the only reason for such great american aid to Israel, the fundamental christians are a signifcant factor. But are you under such the illusion that with no jewish votes in america, the aid to Israel would remain the same?

"And, if Jews like you can fight for another Arab state to be created, while tearing apart the Land of Israel, then why shouldn't American Christian kids come over here and fight for the Jewish homeland?"
'The land of israel' argument... Remind me to start settling in the country of jordan to prevent 'eretz yisrael from being torn apart.
In any case, I dont see how the Israeli government supporting a state of palestine, means that the Israeli army is 'fighting for an arab state'.

"Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and even our people." please quote me taking this position.

[AbedS]

Replying to a miasma of your previous posts, rhodescholar.

I never argued that terrorism increased sharply as a result of 1967. A fact, though, is that after 1948, until present, over 4 million pals have been displaced. Argue that number all you want, I frankly don't care, because it is obvious to me that you are rooted to your position in cement shoes. Here's a question for you, though. Assuming that there was never a Palestine, that the land was barely inhabited, etc, how can there be millions of refugees? Since the main sources for this information are the UN, Universities, and research groups, it must obviously be wrong, and slanted to make Israel look bad.

[SteveK]

"Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and even our people." please quote me taking this position.


eastbank2,

Do you really want me to quote you taking this position?

Do you really want me to assume that you support Arab Muslim terrorist suicide bombers against Israelis?

Is this why you are apparently heading for a career as an international lawyer with fluency in Arabic?

And, you are fighting for me as a soldier in the Israeli Army?

Is this how you envision to fight for Israelis and appease the Arabs:

In any case I am all for leaving the gaza jews put, just dont come crying when the gazian jews dont have tzahal spending millions of americas dollars each year to protect them. See how fast they will stay if it is not israeli soldiers knocking on their doors, but khan nunis residents.

Is your Shinui Party not leading the Israeli Army to fight for the creation of another Arab State by simply putting the Israeli military in a position not to have to fight against it?

[AbedS]

"The World Bank reported in May 2003 that the Palestinian economy has suffered as a direct consequence of curfew and closure. An estimated two million Palestinians live in poverty, dependent on aid agencies, with 60 percent living on less than $2 per day and 22 percent of children under five suffering acute or chronic malnutrition. Unemployment stands at 40 percent, but is as high as 60 percent in some areas. The Special Rapporteur believes that there is “a humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza. It is not the result of a natural disaster. Instead, it is a crisis imposed by a powerful state on its neighbour.”

Now all you Refusniks justify this and tell me it's the Palestinians' fault. I guess this shows just how holy and religious the state of Israel actually is. Your knee jerk reaction is already known, rhodescholar.

[SteveK]

"The World Bank reported in May 2003 that the Palestinian economy has suffered as a direct consequence of curfew and closure. An estimated two million Palestinians live in poverty, dependent on aid agencies, with 60 percent living on less than $2 per day and 22 percent of children under five suffering acute or chronic malnutrition. Unemployment stands at 40 percent, but is as high as 60 percent in some areas. The Special Rapporteur believes that there is “a humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza. It is not the result of a natural disaster. Instead, it is a crisis imposed by a powerful state on its neighbour.”

Now all you Refusniks justify this and tell me it's the Palestinians' fault. I guess this shows just how holy and religious the state of Israel actually is. Your knee jerk reaction is already known, rhodescholar.


Hi AbedS,

As I understand, there has been a lot of corruption from the "Palestinian"
leaders in hogging a whole lot of aid money and such for their own bank accounts. I understand that Arafat's worth was in the ten digit range.
Can you clarify for me anything about those Arabs who pigged out on their own people's money?

[Mediocrates]

It is their own fault. Before they started massacreing Jewish children they had a standard of living that was more or less average for the region. But now it's not and no matter that billions, BILLIONS of dollars have disappeared down the rathole that is the PLO, seemingly those miserables are no better off. It's karma, dude, pure karma.

[rhodescholar]

Replying to a miasma of your previous posts, rhodescholar.

I never argued that terrorism increased sharply as a result of 1967. A fact, though, is that after 1948, until present, over 4 million pals have been displaced. Argue that number all you want, I frankly don't care, because it is obvious to me that you are rooted to your position in cement shoes. Here's a question for you, though. Assuming that there was never a Palestine, that the land was barely inhabited, etc, how can there be millions of refugees? Since the main sources for this information are the UN, Universities, and research groups, it must obviously be wrong, and slanted to make Israel look bad.

First of all, this might be the last post i make your way, because you dont seem bright enough to comprehend my posts.

I said that terrorism FELL/DECREASED/DIMINSHED/DROPPPED AFTER 1967, which it did.

Not that it increased, that i DECREASED.

This means that the israeli occupation of theses disputed lands did NOT increase the level of terrorism directed at it.

Do you understand?

As for your other point, even the most vicious, racist anti-jewish web site admit that the vast majority of the 800,000 pal arabs living in what is now greenline israel fled OF THEIR OWN VOLITION.

That you quote a number of 4 million shows you are incapable fo even a slight level of thought; if there are suppposedly 4 million pal arabs in existence today, including all of the so-called camps, WB, Gzaza strip etc., then how could one claim that 4 million were "displaced" 60 years ago. Have none of them died/had children/moved, etc.? Are you telling me that there has been absolutley no demographic changes in this group of people for the last 60 years?

You need to come back to this board and bring a much larger amount of reading and thought before posting. Your knowledge of this conflict is at a first grade level, and like many of the people here, i have been personally involved/closely monitoring it for decades (over 6 in my case), so you have a VERY long way to go. I guess your parents never tuaght you to listen and not speak when in the presence of those with more knowledge than you. How unfortunate.

[rhodescholar]

"The World Bank reported in May 2003 that the Palestinian economy has suffered as a direct consequence of curfew and closure. An estimated two million Palestinians live in poverty, dependent on aid agencies, with 60 percent living on less than $2 per day and 22 percent of children under five suffering acute or chronic malnutrition. Unemployment stands at 40 percent, but is as high as 60 percent in some areas. The Special Rapporteur believes that there is “a humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza. It is not the result of a natural disaster. Instead, it is a crisis imposed by a powerful state on its neighbour.”

Now all you Refusniks justify this and tell me it's the Palestinians' fault. I guess this shows just how holy and religious the state of Israel actually is. Your knee jerk reaction is already known, rhodescholar.

Well not all of the pal arabs are suffering. Suha gets a check almost as fat as she is each year for allegedly $22 million per year.

And this is a classic arab muslim ploy perfected by arafat - attack and attack, then come screaming for help when the enemy (Syria, Israel, jordan, yemen, kuwait, etc. etc) respond.

The poor financial status of the pal arabs is by whose hand? Where does the UN or any other entity state that israel owe the pal arabs a dime? Do they have some divine right to a better economy because of israel? Why cant they work in jordan or egypt? Hurry, think of something quick.

[rhodescholar]

Can somebody tell me if there is a living breathing moderator on this board?

How can half this thread be hijacked by a conversation about the Torah, etc.? Why werent all of these posts moved into a different one?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Do you really want me to quote you taking this position??yes. you made the accusation, so back it up.

Do you really want me to assume that you support Arab Muslim terrorist suicide bombers against Israelis?? You could make all the assumptiuons you want. That does not mean there is any correlation with truth to your assumptions

Is this why you are apparently heading for a career as an international lawyer with fluency in Arabic?? I dont know what this has to do with anything. I happen to alsofeel that speaking arabic would also help to bridge the gap between Israeli jew and israeli arab.

And, you are fighting for me as a soldier in the Israeli Army??yes

Is this how you envision to fight for Israelis and appease the Arabs:?its not appeasing arabs as much as appeasing tel avivians who have to foot the bill for the settlers.



Is your Shinui Party not leading the Israeli Army to fight for the creation of another Arab State by simply putting the Israeli military in a position not to have to fight against it? no.why would I want to put the Israeli military in a position to fight when they dont have to? I assume you phrased this wrong and meant that the pull out from gaza puts the idf in a position less able to defend it self. If this is what you meant, I still dont agree because I dont see how settlers are protecting Israel so well. Especially since the disengagement does not involve disengagement from the philadelphia route which is the real security problem.

[Mediocrates]

I somehow don't think that the Tel Avivians are going to drive a truck bomb through a Samarian shul if they are not 'appeased'. You'd have to ask Oprah though, she might have something planned. In either case I'm reminded that if you really really want to take that right wing Libertarian tack of phrasing everying in terms of the sacred tax dollar then you also have to stop paying for farmers, hell you havet to stop running railroads and public schools too. After all, most people don't personally expect to take advantage of prisons but there you have them willingly forking over money to build them.

[Womble]

Can somebody tell me if there is a living breathing moderator on this board?
*checks KettleWhistle's pulse*

[Womble]

Especially since the disengagement does not involve disengagement from the philadelphia route which is the real security problem.
It does, actually.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/550788.html

Oh and eastbank, what, pray tell, is the "hebrew nationality"? I am not aware of such a creature existing in the nature.

[Mediocrates]

Can somebody tell me if there is a living breathing moderator on this board?

How can half this thread be hijacked by a conversation about the Torah, etc.? Why werent all of these posts moved into a different one?


check you PMs boychik

[eastbank2]

I somehow don't think that the Tel Avivians are going to drive a truck bomb through a Samarian shul if they are not 'appeased'. You'd have to ask Oprah though, she might have something planned. In either case I'm reminded that if you really really want to take that right wing Libertarian tack of phrasing everying in terms of the sacred tax dollar then you also have to stop paying for farmers, hell you havet to stop running railroads and public schools too. After all, most people don't personally expect to take advantage of prisons but there you have them willingly forking over money to build them.


Farming, railroads, the penal system and public schools are public goods which require subsidization. I do not consider settling land for the sake of biblical scripture to be a public good.

[eastbank2]

It does, actually.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/550788.html.

Nice complete misrepresentation of the actual substance of the article:

just a few excerpts:

"Assuming that the disengagement from the Strip is carried out in coordination with the Palestinians, that the Egyptians assist, and that the volume of smuggling declines - we will leave Philadelphi.". Is this wrong?

"Mofaz, speaking to journalists after the meeting, said merely: "We have not yet decided that the IDF should leave Philadelphi. If the smuggling stops, we'll consider it." Is this wrong?

Unlike your claim, that the IDF will leave the philadelphia zone, which I claimed was a security threat, it will only be left if the smuggling stops-- ie if it ceases to be a security threat.





Oh and eastbank, what, pray tell, is the "hebrew nationality"? I am not aware of such a creature existing in the nature.

Zionism frequently refers to the hebrew people and hebrew nationality. Leon Urinus in 'exodus' also refers to the 'revival of the hebrew nation'.

[Womble]

Nice complete misrepresentation of the actual substance of the article:

just a few excerpts:

"Assuming that the disengagement from the Strip is carried out in coordination with the Palestinians, that the Egyptians assist, and that the volume of smuggling declines - we will leave Philadelphi.". Is this wrong?

"Mofaz, speaking to journalists after the meeting, said merely: "We have not yet decided that the IDF should leave Philadelphi. If the smuggling stops, we'll consider it." Is this wrong?

Unlike your claim, that the IDF will leave the philadelphia zone, which I claimed was a security threat, it will only be left if the smuggling stops-- ie if it ceases to be a security threat.

No misrepresentation here, sorry. "If the smuggling declines" does not mean "if the smuggling stops", so the two statements are contradictory somewhat. However, from my experience, an Israeli concession announced is a concession inevitable, and if Sharon's government declared the willingness to leave the Philadelphi route, they eventually will, and regardless of whether the smuggling stops or declines.

Here (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=13371) is an article presenting the withdrawal from the Philadelphi route as an inevitability already (exactly one day after the first article):

"We have not yet decided that the [Israeli Army] should leave Philadelphi. If the

smuggling stops, we'll consider it," Mofaz told reporters in the resort of Sharm el-Sheikh following the talks.

But security sources were more candid.

..."Over the long term, there is no reasonable way to hold on to Philadelphi," a senior military source told Haaretz, explaining that any troops left behind were likely to become a focal-point for attacks, as on the Lebanon border.
Notice that this last piece of reasoning does not even mention smuggling. This is how the concessions logic always progresses.


Zionism frequently refers to the hebrew people and hebrew nationality. Leon Urinus in 'exodus' also refers to the 'revival of the hebrew nation'.
Which is why I don't call myself a Zionist, since I do not believe in the "hebrew nationality". I find it to be a false construction, a non-entity. I've seen enough Israelis abroad finding out, to much of their frustration, that there's no way for them to get rid of their Jewishness.

[Mediocrates]

Farming, railroads, the penal system and public schools are public goods which require subsidization. I do not consider settling land for the sake of biblical scripture to be a public good.

So abandon them. Cut off their water and power. Drive the D9's up and knock their homes down.

[SteveK]

.....

Which is why I don't call myself a Zionist, since I do not believe in the "hebrew nationality". I find it to be a false construction, a non-entity. I've seen enough Israelis abroad finding out, to much of their frustration, that there's no way for them to get rid of their Jewishness.


In other words, Womble, for you there is no way, and shouldn't be any way, for Israelis to get the diaspora mentality out of themselves. Your agenda is to maintain that we can and should be just as good Jews in Brooklyn as we can be in Jerusalem.


Zionism is about bringing the Jews back to their sovereign homeland. The Jews over the centuries were preserving themselves for the answer to their prayers to return to their ancestral homeland. That's what diaspora "Jewishness" was about. Wasn't it?

Now, The State of Israel, the home and headquarters of the real Zionists, is forced by these diaspora Jews to recognize a "false consruction and non-entity" of the Jewish heritage,- a sovereign Jewish Homeland in "partnership" and even competition with a bunch of Jews who prefer the good life in Christian homelands.

[Womble]

In other words, Womble, for you there is no way, and shouldn't be any way, for Israelis to get the diaspora mentality out of themselves.
Nor is there a need to.


Your agenda is to maintain that we can and should be just as good Jews in Brooklyn as we can be in Jerusalem.
My agenda is not losing the link between us Jews regardless of where life placed us. I am well aware that making aliyah is never an easy choice, and cannot fault those who do not do it.


Zionism is about bringing the Jews back to their sovereign homeland. The Jews over the centuries were preserving themselves for the answer to their prayers to return to their ancestral homeland. That's what diaspora "Jewishness" was about. Wasn't it?
Yes, but it wasn't the only thing it was about.


Now, The State of Israel, the home and headquarters of the real Zionists, is forced by these diaspora Jews to recognize a "false consruction and non-entity" of the Jewish heritage,- a sovereign Jewish Homeland in "partnership" and even competition with a bunch of Jews who prefer the good life in Christian homelands.
What I called a false contruction and a non-entity is not the Jewish heritage, but an attempt to single out a group of Jews and declare them a nation of their own. That is not in line with the Jewish heritage, which values unity above all. You, being religious, should realise that those seeking to turn Israelis into a nation separate from the Diaspora Jews seek to abolish, not reinforce, the Jewish heritage. Case in point: Ophra with her views on Jewish religion.

[SteveK]

What I called a false contruction and a non-entity is not the Jewish heritage, but an attempt to single out a group of Jews and declare them a nation of their own. That is not in line with the Jewish heritage, which values unity above all. You, being religious, should realise that those seeking to turn Israelis into a nation separate from the Diaspora Jews seek to abolish, not reinforce, the Jewish heritage. Case in point: Ophra with her views on Jewish religion.

Womble,

Israel is a sovereign nation separate from the diaspora Jews. This is perfectly in line with the Jewish heritage. In fact the Jewish heritage of being a sovereign nation won't be maintained and can't get passed to the next generation unless there are Israelis like Ophra. Thank God for Israelis like Ophra.

Heritage is something that you keep and pass. The diaspora Jews can neither keep nor pass our heritage of ownership for the Land of Israel.
The diaspora Jews do keep and pass their respective Christian homelands, though. But, that's not in line with our Jewish heritage.

And, my views on the "Jewish religion" are more rabid than those of Ophra. What you see are my views on God. I separate God from religion, but not from State. I am talking about the need for national Torah leadership who will focus only on the building of the sovereign Jewish Homeland. They are not equated to God, but will put Him as the number one priority on the State agenda. My only connection to the diaspora Jews is that the prophecies speak about the ingathering of the exiles. That's the unity that I understand with them.

[SteveK]

Zionism frequently refers to the hebrew people and hebrew nationality. Leon Urinus in 'exodus' also refers to the 'revival of the hebrew nation'.

eastbank2,

You don't connect to Torah. You are a member of the Shinui party, having switched from the Likud. Your "location" was originally stated at Likud Party HQ, but now you can't change it to your next ideological address of Shinui.
Your career path is an international lawyer with fluency in Arabic.
You are in the Israeli army. You read novels about Jews and Arabs apparently as an authoritative source of your information about them. Your army commanders don't give you much time to read while on "tiranoot". You have many Muslim friends who are nice and helpful to you. You are a pro at debate.

Your posts are nothing but a joy-ride on those of others.

I wonder what you would say if you were actually honest in expressing your own position and not that (bits and pieces) of your masters.

[Reffo]

My only connection to the diaspora Jews is that the prophecies speak about the ingathering of the exiles. That's the unity that I understand with them.Ok, so other than that you have no affinity, commonality or any empathy with them ? In other words you feel united only with their potential to make Aliyah ? How do you feel about the ones who will never make aliyah, do you feel zero unity with them ?

[SteveK]

Ok, so other than that you have no affinity, commonality or any empathy with them ? In other words you feel united only with their potential to make Aliyah ? How do you feel about the ones who will never make aliyah, do you feel zero unity with them ?

Reffo,

I still owe you a response from your post a while back on "The Game Is Up".
My next response to Ophra there will incorporate just what and why I think about the diaspora Jews as I do. There is one little thing that I have not mentioned yet so explicitly.

But, to give you a little hint, yes, I feel zero unity with those diaspora Jews who will never make aliyah. Those diaspora Jews who threaten the resolve of the Israelis to be Israelis again after 2000 years, with the lure of being just as good Jews and better and richer in Brooklyn than they can be in Jerusalem,- but poorer.

[Reffo]

SteveK, you keep on telling me that you will reply later, in your earlier post as well as now. Does that mean you want me to hold off and just wait ? OK, but I must respond to this:
Those diaspora Jews who threaten the resolve of the Israelis to be Israelis again after 2000 years, with the lure of being just as good Jews and better and richer in Brooklyn than they can be in Jerusalem,- but poorer.That's just a bit simplistic. It may be true in some cases and it may be a factor but there are more important and complex reasons as well.

[SteveK]

SteveK, you keep on telling me that you will reply later, in your earlier post as well as now. Does that mean you want me to hold off and just wait ? OK, but I must respond to this:
That's just a bit simplistic. It may be true in some cases and it may be a factor but there are more importnt and complex reasons as well.

Reffo,

Before I say Goodnight from Israel, or rather Good Morning, let me remind you that a structure can fall from the simple loosening of a bolt.

[Reffo]

No problems SteveK, you are pretty good with analogies but I am not sure that it's always applicable. In any case, I am eagerly awaiting for your responses.

[Reffo]

I have no affinity to arabs, I have an affinity to people who are nice and helpful to me. Since I am a student of the arabic language, I found that many arabs were quite helpful, and friendly. I found that contrary to what i learned on israelforum, all arabs are not ticking time bombs awaiting the destruction of the jewish people.I like this particular post and I tend to identify with 99% of it. To me, it recognises the humanity of our current "enemies" and I think that is a healthy and mature attitude because it allows for a potential to live in peace with them in the future. And certainly, even in the meanwhile (even while there are hostilities), if one comes across decent individuals, there is no reason for not being friendly respectful of each other, it's not just utopia, it is possible and desirable (sure, it may entail risks but risks of not being ready to do this are greater because it will be harder to achieve peace).

Having said that, I would qualify my support and hope that you (and people like you/me) would still be realistic to recognize that so long that they (as a group) maintain their hostility, animosity and use of violence, the Israelis too should be ready to use any means, methods and tools to defend themselves. So, on the one hand you are ready to live with each other and recognise each other's humanity, but only if they too meet you somewhere in the middle (or at least at a mutually acceptable point).

The only point of difference I would have with your post is your statement:
I found that contrary to what i learned on israelforum, all arabs are not ticking time bombs awaiting the destruction of the jewish peopleI don't believe that everyone on this forum is saying this (although some do)

[eastbank2]

No misrepresentation here, sorry. "If the smuggling declines" does not mean "if the smuggling stops", so the two statements are contradictory somewhat. However, from my experience, an Israeli concession announced is a concession inevitable, and if Sharon's government declared the willingness to leave the Philadelphi route, they eventually will, and regardless of whether the smuggling stops or declines.

Here (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=13371) is an article presenting the withdrawal from the Philadelphi route as an inevitability already (exactly one day after the first article):

"We have not yet decided that the [Israeli Army] should leave Philadelphi. If the

smuggling stops, we'll consider it," Mofaz told reporters in the resort of Sharm el-Sheikh following the talks.

But security sources were more candid.

..."Over the long term, there is no reasonable way to hold on to Philadelphi," a senior military source told Haaretz, explaining that any troops left behind were likely to become a focal-point for attacks, as on the Lebanon border.
Notice that this last piece of reasoning does not even mention smuggling. This is how the concessions logic always progresses..
so basically the philadelphia route will be given up because it is untenable and to dangerous for israeli soldiers such as myself. You consider this a consession to the arabs?




Which is why I don't call myself a Zionist, since I do not believe in the "hebrew nationality". I find it to be a false construction, a non-entity. I've seen enough Israelis abroad finding out, to much of their frustration, that there's no way for them to get rid of their Jewishness.
I dont even know how to respond to this. You support Israel-- the creation of and epitamy of zionism-- but are not a zionist??????????
In any case, israelioot is the hebrew nationality. Is this a false construction?

[eastbank2]

So abandon them. Cut off their water and power. Drive the D9's up and knock their homes down.


We did it to the arabs for the betterment of the state/humanity, why not the jews.

[eastbank2]

What I called a false contruction and a non-entity is not the Jewish heritage, but an attempt to single out a group of Jews and declare them a nation of their own. That is not in line with the Jewish heritage, which values unity above all. You, being religious, should realise that those seeking to turn Israelis into a nation separate from the Diaspora Jews seek to abolish, not reinforce, the Jewish heritage. Case in point: Ophra with her views on Jewish religion.


Neturai Carta argue the same thing

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

You don't connect to Torah. You are a member of the Shinui party, having switched from the Likud. Your "location" was originally stated at Likud Party HQ, but now you can't change it to your next ideological address of Shinui.
Your career path is an international lawyer with fluency in Arabic.
You are in the Israeli army. You read novels about Jews and Arabs apparently as an authoritative source of your information about them. Your army commanders don't give you much time to read while on "tiranoot". You have many Muslim friends who are nice and helpful to you. You are a pro at debate.

Your posts are nothing but a joy-ride on those of others.

I wonder what you would say if you were actually honest in expressing your own position and not that (bits and pieces) of your masters.

1. If I changed my ideology to fit morality-- from likud to shinui-- who is 'master'?

2. If I choose my career path to be law, and enjoy the study of foreign languages, which 'master' compelled me to this?

3. If I am in the Israeli army, like the great majority of Israelis, we are forced to listen to our commander ('master'), or we could listen to our next 'master'-- mishtara tzbait

4. I have muslim friends because of some 'master'?

But these are all lies to appease some 'master'. You are quite convincing.

[eastbank2]

I like this particular post and I tend to identify with 99% of it. To me, it recognises the humanity of our current "enemies" and I think that is a healthy and mature attitude because it allows for a potential to live in peace with them in the future. And certainly, even in the meanwhile (even while there are hostilities), if one comes across decent individuals, there is no reason for not being friendly respectful of each other, it's not just utopia, it is possible and desirable (sure, it may entail risks but risks of not being ready to do this are greater because it will be harder to achieve peace).

Having said that, I would qualify my support and hope that you (and people like you/me) would still be realistic to recognize that so long that they (as a group) maintain their hostility, animosity and use of violence, the Israelis too should be ready to use any means, methods and tools to defend themselves. So, on the one hand you are ready to live with each other and recognise each other's humanity, but only if they too meet you somewhere in the middle (or at least at a mutually acceptable point).

The only point of difference I would have with your post is your statement:
I found that contrary to what i learned on israelforum, all arabs are not ticking time bombs awaiting the destruction of the jewish peopleI don't believe that everyone on this forum is saying this (although some do)


Good post. And I acknowledge that as a group they are an enemy. However, even according to the army, the percentage of palestinians that are ticking time bombs is around 10%. If I found arab friends that I could vouch for are not apart of this 10%, then I am as willing to befriend them as much as a jew. Perhaps even more so, for if there was more integration in israeli society, I believe it would aid in the arab-israeli tensions outside.

[KettleWhistle]

*checks KettleWhistle's pulse*

I've been following this thread, more or less. I don't know if AbedS is interested in a reasonable discussion of the subject, but (s)he does seem sincere, although misinformed. So what's the problem?

[Ophra]

Good post. And I acknowledge that as a group they are an enemy. However, even according to the army, the percentage of palestinians that are ticking time bombs is around 10%. If I found arab friends that I could vouch for are not apart of this 10%, then I am as willing to befriend them as much as a jew. Perhaps even more so, for if there was more integration in israeli society, I believe it would aid in the arab-israeli tensions outside.

Very well said . Kol hakavod :)

[KettleWhistle]

Good post. And I acknowledge that as a group they are an enemy. However, even according to the army, the percentage of palestinians that are ticking time bombs is around 10%. If I found arab friends that I could vouch for are not apart of this 10%, then I am as willing to befriend them as much as a jew. Perhaps even more so, for if there was more integration in israeli society, I believe it would aid in the arab-israeli tensions outside.
I tend to think that the problem is not so much "Arabs as a group," but anti-Israeli propaganda that mostly consists of lies and distortions. And quite a few Israeli Arabs are just fine with Israel and with the Jews. During my travels to Israel I stayed at a hotel at a Christian Arab village several times. There isn't a single bad thing I can say about these people. And actually they were very friendly and most of all honest, and far more so than many Israelis.

On the other hand, I worked with a Pakistani person who only recently came to the U.S. We were paired up, and once we got to know each other a bit, he was shocked that I was a Jew, and didn't mistreat him for being a Muslim. Basically, he told me that according to what he heard and read about Jews in the Pakistani press, we must be born with a tail, horns, and a pitchfork.

[Reffo]

We did it to the arabs for the betterment of the state/humanity, why not the jews.I hope you are just being flippant. While I don't take it lightly if Arabs are harmed either, I suppose I am tribal enough to take a dimmer view if a Jew harms another Jew even if they have radically differing points of view. Now, I am not advocating that a dissident group should be allowed to stand in the way of what is perceived to be a common good, but surely there is a better way than just abandoning them to a potential lynching....

[Ophra]

I tend to think that the problem is not so much "Arabs as a group," but anti-Israeli propaganda that mostly consists of lies and distortions. And quite a few Israeli Arabs are just fine with Israel and with the Jews. During my travels to Israel I stayed at a hotel at a Christian Arab village several times. There isn't a single bad thing I can say about these people. And actually they were very friendly and most of all honest, and far more so than many Israelis

OMG !!! .... I just went out to check if there was a blue moon...:)
Careful KW ... you are coming across as human ;)

[eastbank2]

I hope you are just being flippant. While I don't take it lightly if Arabs are harmed either, I suppose I am tribal enough to take a dimmer view if a Jew harms another Jew even if they have radically differing points of view. Now, I am not advocating that a dissident group should be allowed to stand in the way of what is perceived to be a common good, but surely there is a better way than just abandoning them to a potential lynching....

I dont think I am being flippant. As anyone who has read any book on the 48 war, villages were expelled which were militarily dangerous for the emerging state. Many innocent arabs were inevitably 'expelled from their land within Israel'. Even ben gurion said "We cant differentiate between good and bad arab-- good and bad village, yes-- but individual arabs, no". Thus inevitabley many innocent arabs were expelled.

I cant respect someones political view if they would not hold the same view if they were an arab. I personally feel, that irrespective of if i was jew, arab, or canadian, I would still hold the same political view regarding the israeli-arab conflict.

However, all these right wingers that cry because the disengagement plan is pulling out Jews of their homes, i highly doubt that they would be crying in 47-49 for arabs being kicked out.

[SteveK]

Posted by Mediocrates:
So abandon them. Cut off their water and power. Drive the D9's up and knock their homes down.

Posted by eastbank2:
We did it to the arabs for the betterment of the state/humanity, why not the jews.


Posted by eastbank2:
I have posted on at least the same number of threads that you have. And yes I support the expelling of jews from their land outside of Israel (gaza is not israel). Arabs were the first to be expelled for the betterment of the state-- it is now the turn of the yehud.

Posted by eastbank2:
1. If I changed my ideology to fit morality-- from likud to shinui-- who is 'master'?


eastbank2,

So, who is teaching whom about "morality"?

Since you bring what you read in novels as your proofs, I am reminded of George Orwell's "Animal Farm":

A summary of Chapter 10, the final chapter from ANIMAL FARM:

"... as the animals watch the dinner proceedings through the window, they realize with horror that they can no longer tell the pigs' faces from the human ones."

[Reffo]

I dont think I am being flippant. As anyone who has read any book on the 48 war, villages were expelled which were militarily dangerous for the emerging state. Many innocent arabs were inevitably 'expelled from their land within Israel'. Even ben gurion said "We cant differentiate between good and bad arab-- good and bad village, yes-- but individual arabs, no". Thus inevitabley many innocent arabs were expelled.The suffering of any innocents on either side is regrettable but the very act of war is immoral and in 1948, the war was started by the Arabs and the Palestinians. Moreover, I would hope that you would acknowledge that The Arabs and the Palestinians were also guilty of some atrocious acts against innocent Israelis and Jews.

I cant respect someones political view if they would not hold the same view if they were an arab. I personally feel, that irrespective of if i was jew, arab, or canadian, I would still hold the same political view regarding the israeli-arab conflict.Fair enough, but if you are prepared to be altruistic then I would hope that you would be willing to go all the way and that is to have concern for the lives of the settlers as well. That's all I was suggesting in my earlier post.

However, all these right wingers that cry because the disengagement plan is pulling out Jews of their homes, i highly doubt that they would be crying in 47-49 for arabs being kicked out.You are probably right, they wouldn't, nor would many of the Arabs cry for Jews. That's the trouble with our world and thats why we have these stupid wars. Unfortunately though we have to live in reality, not utopia. That does not mean that we shouldn't aim for utopia but we should realise that we will never achieve it. So, in the meanwhile we have to take sides and in the case of Israel, the settlers, the supporters of Shinui and other parties are ultimately on the same side and they are unfortunately all forced to be in a war against the Arabs. I think it's fair to say that all Israelis would like to end this war but there are major differences about the method of achieving this and these disagreements are the main cause of "bad blood" (even hatred) between the parties. I think that both sides of the political spectrum have done some stupid things. I also think that this hate is unhealthy and is a luxury that Israel can't afford, it has already resulted in some extreme acts such as Rabin's assassination and it looks like that some on the left side of the political spectrum consider the settlers as less than human and greater enemies than the Arabs. I for one hope that sanity will prevail and the parties will learn to resolve their differences in a more practical way. Otherwise Israel will not have a bright future and I think that neither side wants a bad future.

[Womble]

so basically the philadelphia route will be given up because it is untenable and to dangerous for israeli soldiers such as myself. You consider this a consession to the arabs?
In a way. It is a part of the big concession known as the disengagement plan. But hey, the only reason I am pointing that out is because you claimed that Israel does not plan to leave the Philadelphia route- which was false. I had no intention to argue anything beyond that originally.


I dont even know how to respond to this. You support Israel-- the creation of and epitamy of zionism-- but are not a zionist??????????
Yup. I know, it puzzles a whole lot of people. You see, I do not subscribe to the entire ideological package that Zionism offers. I suport Israel as a Jewish national state- but an attempt to separate the "hebrew" or "israeli" nation from the Diaspora Jews is in direct contradiction of this goal. This state was meant to be a national home for JEWS, not for Israelis.


In any case, israelioot is the hebrew nationality. Is this a false construction?
Yes. All an Israeli needs to realize that there's no escape from being Jewish is to go abroad and run into a Jew hater. I am, however, talking about a reasonably smart Israeli, dumb ones will always miss the point.

Neturai Carta argue the same thing
No they don't. Neturei Karta deny the very idea of Jewish secular national identity, in which they hold a common ground with anti-Semites. I, on the other hand, emphasise the said national identity and the bond between the members of the nation, regardless of whether or not they are religious.

[Womble]

I dont think I am being flippant. As anyone who has read any book on the 48 war, villages were expelled which were militarily dangerous for the emerging state. Many innocent arabs were inevitably 'expelled from their land within Israel'. Even ben gurion said "We cant differentiate between good and bad arab-- good and bad village, yes-- but individual arabs, no". Thus inevitabley many innocent arabs were expelled.
You've been reading the "new historians", haven't you? Benny Morris, Tom Segev and the rest of their manipulative crowd. Things weren't quite the way they describe, you know.

[AbedS]

You've been reading the "new historians", haven't you? Benny Morris, Tom Segev and the rest of their manipulative crowd. Things weren't quite the way they describe, you know.
Womble, you seem like a very objective person, and I enjoy reading your posts. They are both informative and intellectually provocative.
However, I think you're a bit off the mark with your "new historians" remark.
If you're even a lay student of general human history, you'll immediately see that contemporary accounts of events tend to not jive with what actually happened, and the actual truth could take many years and couple of generations to emerge it's beautiful head. How can you be sure that the history that you happen to believe is true is actually factual? Isn't it possible that the official story was purposely changed from the truth for political gain, ie. the resident left of their own accord, or we paid them, or they are the victims of arab on arab conflict?
I, for one, tend to look at all acounts of a matter and make up my own mind. I think in some instances, the Israelis at the time massaged the news to work in their favor. They needed international assistance, and massacres wouldn't help that end.

[MGB8]

There's an excellent article on mideastforum by Karsh which shreds Benny Morris and the new revisionists.

[Gilgamesh]

There's an excellent article on mideastforum by Karsh which shreds Benny Morris and the new revisionists.

couldn't google it, what's the link?
thanks!

[MGB8]

http://www.meforum.org/article/711

Benny Morris's Reign of Error, Revisited
The Post-Zionist Critique
by Efraim Karsh
Middle East Quarterly Spring 2005

The collapse and dispersion of Palestine's Arab society during the 1948 war is one of the most charged issues in the politics and historiography of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Initially, Palestinians blamed the Arab world for having promised military support that never materialized.[1] Arab host states in turn regarded the Palestinians as having shamefully deserted their homeland. With the passage of time and the dimming of historical memory, the story of the 1948 war was gradually rewritten with Israel rather than the Arab states and the extremist and shortsighted Palestinian leadership becoming the main if not only culprit of the Palestinian dispersion. This false narrative received a major boost in the late 1980s with the rise of several left-leaning Israeli academics and journalists calling themselves the New Historians, who sought to question and revise understanding of the Arab-Israeli conflict.[2] Ostensibly basing their research on recently declassified documents from the British Mandate period and the first years of Israeli independence, they systematically redrew the history of Zionism, turning upside down the saga of Israel's struggle for survival. Among the new historians, none has been more visible or more influential than Benny Morris, a professor at Ben-Gurion University in Beersheba, whose 1987 book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-1949, became the New Historian's definitive work.

Prominent Palestinian politicians such as Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) and Hanan Ashrawi cited the "findings" of the New Historians to support extreme Palestinian territorial and political claims. Academics lauded Morris for using newly available documents to expose the allegedly immoral circumstances of Israel's creation. With frequent media exposure, the New Historians had an impact on mainstream Israeli opinion, which became increasingly receptive to the notion that both the fault and the solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict lay disproportionately with Israel's own actions.

Such plaudits, however, were undeserved. Far from unearthing new facts or offering a novel interpretation of the Palestinian exodus, The Birth recycled the standard Arab narrative of the conflict. Morris portrayed the Palestinians as the hapless victims of unprovoked Jewish aggression. Israel's very creation became the "original sin" underlying the perpetuation of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Had there been an academic foundation to Morris's revisionism, such acclaim may have been warranted. But rather than incorporate new Israeli source material, Morris did little more than rehash old historiography. While laying blame for the Palestinian refugee crisis on the actions of the Israeli Defense Forces and its pre-state precursor, the Haganah, Morris failed to consult the millions of declassified documents in their archives, even as other historians used them in painstaking research.[3]

(more at link)

[Womble]

Womble, you seem like a very objective person, and I enjoy reading your posts. They are both informative and intellectually provocative.
However, I think you're a bit off the mark with your "new historians" remark.
If you're even a lay student of general human history, you'll immediately see that contemporary accounts of events tend to not jive with what actually happened, and the actual truth could take many years and couple of generations to emerge it's beautiful head. How can you be sure that the history that you happen to believe is true is actually factual? Isn't it possible that the official story was purposely changed from the truth for political gain, ie. the resident left of their own accord, or we paid them, or they are the victims of arab on arab conflict?
I, for one, tend to look at all acounts of a matter and make up my own mind. I think in some instances, the Israelis at the time massaged the news to work in their favor. They needed international assistance, and massacres wouldn't help that end.
The trouble is, most of what the "new historians" do is simply adopt the opposite side's narrative instead of actually drawing a new picture. They are trapped in the pattern based thinking. If things weren't quite like the official Israeli historiography describes them, a new historian simply assumes that the opposite claims must then be true- but that is by no means right.

It is simply mind boggling how the episodes that are obviously of extreme importance to understanding history get casually dismissed and ignored without even being examined on their merits. If you limit yourself to learning the official narratives of both sides, you end up a Benny Morris, who keeps making ridiculous claims and then trying to weasel his way out.

The real history of the conflict is far more interesting and fascinating- but it takes a lot of reading and healthy scepticism to see through the pile of misconceptions erected by the propagandists. You have to actually read the original text of the Balfur declaration and think it over to realize that this document was really of only minor importance, and it did not even promise the Jews an independent state. It takes all that and then some to discover that the first proposition of an independent Jewish state in Palestine actually comes from the Arabs in the Weizmann-Feisal agreement. The role of the British and the Saudis in sabotaging this agreement, the role of the French and the Nazis in nurturing Arab anti-Semitism and rejectionist attitude towards Zionism, the heavy British involvement in the 1948 Independence war on the side of the Arabs- neither Arab nor Israeli historians have ever focused on any of this. You have to dig into the archives of the old journals like the Palestine post to find out about the Arab members Jewish Zionist armed organizations like ETZEL (Irgun) and LEHI (the Stern gang)- both converts to Judaism (like the operative who tried to assassinate the Arab Wehrmacht colonel Fauzi Al-Kaukaji) and Muslims (like the people of the Abu Gosh village, where most male residents were LEHI members. On one occasion, for example, the Abu Gosh Arabs ambushed a British prison convoy to free Geula Cohen, LEHI's famous radio broadcaster). See, the very basic premise of BOTH the Arab and the Israeli historiography- that the Arabs have met Zionism with passionate hostility from the very beginning- already doesn't hold water. I don't see the "new historians" dealing with this. All I see them doing is recycling the same old stuff, just from the opposite perspective. Stupid and useless.

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Womble]The trouble is, most of what the "new historians" do is . You have to actually read the original text of the Balfur declaration and think it over to realize that this document was really of only minor importance, and it did not even promise the Jews an independent state.

Dear Womble , if you are Faurisson please tell us ,it's an Israel forum ,not a Palestinian forum or Muslim forum ,ask to Andak01 ...he can explain it to you ..... :D :D :D

[Womble]

[QUOTE]

Dear Womble , if you are Faurisson please tell us ,it's an Israel forum ,not a Palestinian forum or Muslim forum ,ask to Andak01 ...he can explain it to you ..... :D :D :D
Umm what? You aren't making any sense here.

[gandolf2005]

MGB8

Thanks for the link :cool:

[abrodski]

there's nothing to discuss about the fence...it's the least that can be done to stop terrorists by democratic and non-violent means.
It had to be built decades ago.

[gandolf2005]

Israel gave up too much land for too little peace and is giving up Gaza
way too soon and for what? Gaza is fenced/ walled in so they tunnel...
well let me tell you all those sensors are not going to stop them from digging
under the wall...These guys only have to get it right once out of 100 attemps.

Then they can fire rockets or Mortar Bombs even RPGs over the wall,
With less risk to the attacker.


Besides these arabs will now be in another country right ;)
and Israel wont be allowed to retaliate and will have to have the UN act :D :D

[old-reb]

Why does the UN want to prevent Israel from defending itself?

[golani]

huh? Is this some kind of riddle? Please xplain, unless I'm just really tired.

In 1923,Brits gave 75 percent of historical holy land to hashemis in order to give a kingdom to emir abdalla expelled from arabia...

[water]

is the wall helping at all?


i say more power to the state of israel
i ask you this in what other country would the state build a fence
not in Canada
we had some indian stand up for some land they had "claim "to and the govorment of Ontario kill a man to stop them
the protesters did not have gun did not have morter shell they did not have a wish to kill all canadians
what i am saying is they it look likes israel is being compassionate in its choice to build a wall

[patton]

There were not many choices left to Isreal in the face of violence other than withdrawal from everything Pal. The Pals with Arafat, did not leave very many choices. Disengagement and wintdrawal was the option of choice. Give them back the all the land not really needed, keep your major populated area, make the rules as you go along. Build the wall to stop most major acts of terrorism and define your country for which the other side would not make peace and draw bonudaries.

When the Pals have their own country in another few years. Great for the Pals and Israel. ...... You think!!!

End Game, can you guess the end game?

Terrorism is ... in diplomatic terms ..... Act Of War ......... when Pals kill Jewish people in Israeli soil.

Like that will not happen again, sorry for the death of all those innocent, everyone has the right to live in peace, of course each side will do evil things for the end game, but war is about only one thing, when the war is over, everyone forgot what the war was about, and all you have is new land onwers. Please bury the bodies.

I wonder who will be the new proud owner's of more of the middle east?

Give a little back, get alot more.

[NiekNL]

there's nothing to discuss about the fence...it's the least that can be done to stop terrorists by democratic and non-violent means.
It had to be built decades ago.

Correct>

[Hindu+Jewish]

As a non-Jewish person of Hindu origin I want to congratulate Israel for having the common sense to do whatever it take to protect their nation.

If people think Israel is grabbing land then as far as I am concerned " SO WHAT?".

Islam has been grabbing land all throughout it's existence. No non-muslim can co-exist with Islam. It's a FACT!

Keep up the good work maybe one day the Hindus in India will rise against the muslim trouble makers!

[Leon]

unfortunaltey we might need to take examples from you - after all I'm sure if the muslims in India were so open about their genocidal desire to destroy and annihlate the entire hindu population, the muslims would not stand a chance of survival. the last thing hindus would do is run away, disengage, throw off their fellow hinuds from their homes and give away land for "concessions"/"peacre" with a an uncompromising fanatical and deadly enemy

[NiekNL]

No non-muslim can co-exist with Islam. It's a FACT!


He is saying this in a quit radical way, but at this moment I think he is right.
<Ofcourse there are exceptions>

[frizzer1]

He is saying this in a quit radical way, but at this moment I think he is right.
<Ofcourse there are exceptions>

Perhaps the muslims who do not pose a threat to Israel or jews worldwide (ie "good" muslims) are non-religious or secular muslims (ie "bad" muslims) ??

[Hindu+Jewish]

Perhaps the muslims who do not pose a threat to Israel or jews worldwide (ie "good" muslims) are non-religious or secular muslims (ie "bad" muslims) ??

Not perhaps but definitely ;-) One thing you have to remember is that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim. If they exist then they have no say hence they are completely irrelevant.
In Europe I spoke to a lady shopkeeper who spoke to me 1 hour about how the muslims behave when they come into her buddhist/ethnic goods shop.

This when they make 10% of the population. Imagine when they become 20%-50% 70%...I hope I am not alive when such a day comes! The time bomb is ticking away in Europe + rest of the world. Only US has 20% chance of standing up against Islam.

[NiekNL]

This when they make 10% of the population. Imagine when they become 20%-50% 70%...I hope I am not alive when such a day comes! The time bomb is ticking away in Europe + rest of the world. Only US has 20% chance of standing up against Islam.

Yup, Europe can't be saved anymore. One of the most populair names in Europe: Mohammed. It's name number one in a lot of cities!!!! Europe is the first continent to be taken over :( .

[FOGOMAINS]

Yup, Europe can't be saved anymore. One of the most populair names in Europe: Mohammed. It's name number one in a lot of cities!!!! Europe is the first continent to be taken over :( .

No way. Opus Dei will fight against it ;)

Religions have to be tolerated by law, that is not valid for fanatics, terrorists and fundamentalist.
I don't care wether a person is a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hinduist etc. as long as they don't try to influence my life.

I agree that Islam begins to become a threat and we have to observe the activities and response if needed.

As long as "Mohammed" is selling vegetables
and accepts our laws, he can stay :D

[Bahia]

I think Israël has every means to defend itself towards aggression of terrorist groups operating from Palestine. With leaving the Gaza area they have made
a very good gesture towards peace. I think it's very wise.

After 9-11 also the west have to be cautious towards Moslim terrorism and defend it, but not by discriminating all of our Moslim citizins. The majority of Moslim inhabitants in Holland for example are not hostile towards our country.

So I see no reason to be hostile to them.
Since they live here we have to cope with one and another.
And by the way there are not only Mohammed's selling vegetables. There are a lot very good educated Mohammed's who do a lot of efforts to stop fundamentalism within their religion.

What do you think about Dutch people who are putting fire in Mosks in Holland. It has happened several times here even in Muslims schools.
I think this shows how intolerant we can be towards Muslims.

They are not bombing our citizens, they try to live here in peace, (besides one terrible murder on Theo van Gogh, filmmaker by a fundamentalist)
So for that reason, we in Europe should be not hostile towards our Muslim
citizins.

I think the west if it was put in the situation of Israël would not be able to act wise, like leaving the Gazaparts.
We are already discriminating Muslims even if they don't attact us. We should only be on our quard towards extremism. And that we have to deal, not the Muslims in General. Every generation has its own extremism. Which has to be stopped without no doubt, but it's not only a matter of muslims.

[Hindu+Jewish]

Bahia what a load of you have typed! It might work on people who are clueless and have no knowledge of history and world affairs but not on me ;-)

I have met enough muslim people from Holland and they are all playing the waiting game! Wait till they are a much larger % of the population.

Humans are humans there are nutcases in all races and religions but due to Islamic teaching and brain washing from a young age Islam definitely has a MUCH MUCH HIGHER % of these messed up people.
Salman Rushdi is one brave X-muslim who did not get brain washed. May peace always be on him.

Regarding Muslims being good in Holland apart from the one who murdered the documentary maker...I would telly you to ask the gay community in Amsterdam about the muslims.

You are either a muslim yourself or have got your head stuck in the sand and don't want to face upto reality.

Well done the Dutch people who attacked the mosques. It's too late but atleast it was a start.

Muslims don't like when they get taste of their own medicine...do they?

I just hope that when a religioous civil war errupts in Europe the whites don't assume that all brownies are muslim ;-)

[Bahia]

Hallo,

I am not a muslimwoman and have not my head in the sand. I just point out that getting hostile to the Muslimpeople is not my cup of tea.
We all live together in Holland and we have to make the best of it.
It has no sense in creating hostile images of them.

I fully disagree with you when you are saying that it is right to burn down mosks in Holland and schools of muslim children.
The people who did that were right extremist young boys.
Young boys who do not realize where hate towards different cultures can go to. They are the ones with the head in the sand. They don't react because of politics they just act out of feelings of being prior to muslims, because they are dutch, white.

I feel a sense of putting Muslims in the corner of the enemy which they are not, only the extemists whe have to face, everywere.
Even Bush says that he is not attacking Muslims but extremists!
So for one thing he is right!

How we ever can live in peace together, if constantly pointing at the enemy?
It does not make any sense.

[MGB8]

Fair enough.

It is the small minority who actually hate/fear muslims in general. However, there are problems within groups within the Muslim community, and how large those groups are is a real question.

[NiekNL]

I fully disagree with you when you are saying that it is right to burn down mosks in Holland and schools of muslim children.
The people who did that were right extremist young boys.
Young boys who do not realize where hate towards different cultures can go to. They are the ones with the head in the sand. They don't react because of politics they just act out of feelings of being prior to muslims, because they are dutch, white.


Well, Bahia> What you don't know is that also Churches where set on fire and that many attacks on Mosques were done by MUSLIMS!!!!!! Because this way we (Dutch) were to blame> And that's a fact!!! It was many times in Holland's biggest newspaper> the Telegraaf!!!
And the Muslims are the ones who are not tollerant! They hate us> and therefore SOME of us hate them!!!
Btw, most Dutch Muslims are white>

[Hindu+Jewish]

Bahia did you personally see the right wing youths burn the mosque? If it was right wing people then for once in their lifetime they attacked the correct target.
Mosque is an institution of hatred! The muslim schools for youngsters are not the typical kids school! They are more a brain washing factory that produces heards of sheep that follow the teachings of dictator Hitler oops I mean mohhammmmed ;-)

It's a known fact that muslims are using the secular and democratic set up of west and countries like India to thrive. I wonder when will the so called tolerance and peacefulness of Islam be exibited in muslim countries where kafirs live in constant fear!

Someone while going through this forum mentioned Hindus attack muslims and they destroyed one of their mosques by bare hands.

Check this muslims have destroyed MINIMUM 60,000 Hindu temples during their rule of India. It's payback time. The Hindus in India will rise one day as enough is enough.

I did not see any cry or demonstrations from muslims when the Buddhist statues were blown away in Afghanistan. Quran for me is too dirty even to be flushed down a toilet.

"The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese."
- Francois Gautier

Checkout what muslims did in India to non-muslims throughout 800+ years of rule. Pseudo-secular governments, muslims and ignorant Hindus either deny it or brush it under the carpet.

http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/sikhs/evidence1-4.html
http://p081.ezboard.com/fhinduunityislamexposedarchivesonly

What happened to the original inhabitants of Kashmir? The Hindu Kashmiris? They never attacked any muslim ever! Why were 700,000 of them ethnically cleansed from Kashmir inlast 20 years? Why were they rapped, butchered, tortured and hung on busy street corners? These KAshmiri Hindus were ignored by the muslim kissing Indian pseudo-secular government! One offical who distributed tents to these Hinus refugees was termed communal by the pseudo-seculars!

http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/kashmirspecial.pdf

Islam is a religion of HATE and not peace!


The extremisim you will find against Islam is a reaction and a DIRECT result of Islamic extremism throught out the world.

Taj Mahal is the next thing we Hindus want back!

http://hinduunity.org/articles/islamexposed/tejomahalaya.html

OK enough for today ;-)

[NiekNL]

As long as "Mohammed" is selling vegetables
and accepts our laws, he can stay :D

Maybe Mohammed is selling vegatables in Germany, but here in Holland they only sell drugs, or do nothing :mad: .

[FOGOMAINS]

Maybe Mohammed is selling vegatables in Germany, but here in Holland they only sell drugs, or do nothing :mad: .

Send them over here, we got a lot of nothing to do :)
The fact that almost all fruit and vegetable-shops are run by Turks improved the quality of the products. They only offer fresh products, never cheat their costumers and even sell in the evening. I'm glad that they took over that part of business.
Sure there is an involvement in drug-dealing too, but that kind of business is dominated by Africans (always claiming to be under 16, a victim of political pressure in their homelands and well informed by german lawyers how to "play" the asylum game).
I know that in some mosques they have awfull mullahs shouting "Jhihad-slogans" , some have been send home already. Hope the rest will be extradicted soon.
I also know that we have to watch the development of muslim-activities, but also the Neo-Nazi szene!

BTW: one of the suspected terrorists (from Maroc) left Germany yesterday. The courts couldn't prove his involvement (they were not allowed to use US-informations?). I'm sure we will hear more about that guy in future :rolleyes:

[Bahia]

to Hindu-Jewish

I did not see personally the right wing boys put the mosks and schools in fire, no. But I watched the news and the boys who had done this were teenagers with extemists thoughts about Muslims. They belonged to groups who want Holland for the Dutch.

You know in Holland we have to deal with other mathers. I fully understand your're resentment because of you being Hindu and having faced agression towards your'e culture from the muslims.

For that I cannot speak. I will not defend people who did that to your'e people and temples.
But if we are to pay back people who did hateful things to us, then the hate never can be stopped. Than you just agree with Earth being a place of hatred and war and not a place were we have to reach out for peace, understanding. I think God asks that from us.

So in that respect it is not wise to cling on to hostile images, also not in the west were the majority of the muslims are doing well.
With all respect to your'e experience in your'e country, I cannot follow you in the hate for my Muslim citizins in Holland.

Off course there are problems within the community, we have to deal it. We have to speak about it and not deny the problems. Politics have been wrong by not discussing the problems withing muslim communities. They misunderstood that we are not that tolerant towards other cultures and people of different colors as we would like to be. So that has changed now in the positive way. Politics are talking now about the problems of intergration.

By the way I think it is easier to start war than to reach for peace and understanding, but the last thing is demanded from us if we believe in God.

[NiekNL]

to Hindu-Jewish

I did not see personally the right wing boys put the mosks and schools in fire, no. But I watched the news and the boys who had done this were teenagers with extemists thoughts about Muslims. They belonged to groups who want Holland for the Dutch.


Off course there are problems within the community, we have to deal it. We have to speak about it and not deny the problems. Politics have been wrong by not discussing the problems withing muslim communities. They misunderstood that we are not that tolerant towards other cultures and people of different colors as we would like to be. So that has changed now in the positive way. Politics are talking now about the problems of intergration.

Well Bahia: Mosques on fire were not an incident: it happened more. but you have to know that 50% of the attacks were done by Muslims: just follow all the news, not just the DPN= NOS= Dutch Propaganda News> even there they didn't denie the fact that a lot of mosques were set on fire by Muslim-Youths. But they tried to avoid this subject! And there are Islamic extremist groups in Holland with 10000ends of members, while Londsdalers are only with a few hunderd!

And don't speak about tolerant to people of different colours!!!! Most Dutch hate Muslim's, but not the Chinese, Indians, Indonesians,Pakistani who are not Muslim!!! And they have very good reasons:
1: Muslims in Holland take care of most crimes in Holland! ( a fact)
2: They make sure that hospitals are overcrowded, cause they don't have to wait for medical help, and see a doctor for everything, while ethnic Dutch have to wait for days/ months and even years! (This is a fact)
3:Most Muslims in Holland hate us!!!!! (this is a fact as well) and a recent investigation showed that 10% of Dutch Muslims would not mind if all ethnic Dutch were killed!!!!

And why are politicians wrong??? Why DON'T other religions make such a mess of Holland? Why are it only the Muslims!!!!

[NiekNL]

Well, my last post was agressive, but it is true :( .

[Hindu+Jewish]

>They belonged to groups who want Holland for the Dutch.

Like Saudis want SA for themselves and not allow worship of any other religion, like Iranians wants Iran for muslims? Grow up man and smell the coffee! You are definitely muslim or you ain't got a clue about the world.

Holland is not for the muslims! Either integrate like other cultures have while still keeping their identity. For exmaple Hindus are all over the world why are they so integrated in the main stream? Why have they the lowest unemployment rate for any migrant community? In some cases same % as the white folks. Why do they not commit any crimes?
Despite of having a completely different culture, skin colour they seem to get on with their lives and contribute positively to the host nation.

Why is that if 5 muslims gather anywhere they demand sharia law? Why should they be given rights when their Quran is nothinbg but a hate manual?
Have you ever read the Quran and the Hadiths?


>I fully understand your're resentment because of you being Hindu and having faced agression towards your'e culture from the muslims.


My resentment is not only based on events in India! My resentment is based on what I see happening all over the world and in Europe where I live!


>But if we are to pay back people who did hateful things to us, then the hate never can be stopped.

In theorey it's cool but as we know reality is something else. Maybe muslims should start the "anti-hate" process by reforming their religion. I guess it's not possible as it would mean flushing the Quran.


>Than you just agree with Earth being a place of hatred and war and not a place were we have to reach out for peace, understanding.


It already is and always has been. We just need to cut down the number of violent religious nutcases. Unfortunately the violent religious nutcase department is firmly dominated by Islam.

>So in that respect it is not wise to cling on to hostile images, also not in the west were the majority of the muslims are doing well.

Yeah right! You mean more like sharpening their knives when they bacome majority.

>By the way I think it is easier to start war than to reach for peace and understanding

Yes I advise you to go to some muslim forums and start their ;-)

[water]

let us remember that a whole lot of country stood up to wipe Israel off the face of the map
And that Israel only gained the now deputed land in the persute of survival
what about the time Golda Meir when to the familys and ask then not to leave but they moved out so other arabs could come into Israel and Kill all the Jew
i think the wall is great in my naivtey when I first heard about it I pictured all people in reservice working a long side the constution workers
I guess I'm a bit of an romantic all the jews working together to keep killer from there lands
I PRAY THE WALL IS FINISHED SOON AND IT WILL NOT BE LIKE THE WALL IN CHINA

[Bahia]

Well I have to point out, Holland is not like Saudi Arabia or Iran.
We prefer a multi-cultural society, which also muslims are included.

I hope that the Muslim society will learn from the Hindu society by doing fine in different cultures.

[NiekNL]

I PRAY THE WALL IS FINISHED SOON
I join>

[NiekNL]

I hope that the Muslim society will learn from the Hindu society by doing fine in different cultures.

Yea, but the Dutch are hoping this for 25 years or so, and still nothing has changed, so we have to take measures!

[Mediocrates]

Well we all have problems in this sphere. The difference pehaps between the US and the EU is that fundamentally people want to be Americans. Maybe hyphenated Americans but Americans all the same. We are an immigrant country and immigrants came here not as refugees, not out of economic expediency but out of something deeper. In the end, America makes more people American than immigrants make it something else. I lived for a time in a neighborhood that is now 100% Asian - mostly Korean and Japanese. No signs in English anywhere. You would think you are in downtown Seoul. But people are still Americans they don't reject this country or the other people who live here. They're not looking to create a seperate state with it's own laws. I get the distinct sense that in the EU, generations of open-ended, embrace all world views, nationalism is bad, everything is everything hasn't amounted in the least to making people get along with one another or understand one another or care. What it has accomplished is to harden all of those personal bigotries so that all those societies have fractured to the point where they all exist in parallel with one another completely isolated from one another. They all are completely blind to one another and believe that there is no need to embrace or notice anything else. All it takes is a few populist demogogues to stir up a "ME-FIRST" movement and right away you have ethnic, racial, religious violence directed against all the other groups. You no longer have any common bonds that hold all these disparate groups together. No national service, no army, no common language, no shared history. Just a common address which today you can more or less change at will anyway. All very cosmopolitan as you carry around with you your little bubbles of identity.

[NiekNL]

All it takes is a few populist demogogues to stir up a "ME-FIRST" movement and right away you have ethnic, racial, religious violence directed against all the other groups.

Well, we have many neighbourhoods in Holland where like everybody is Chinese. They don't speak Dutch, but they work and don't make problems.
However the Muslim neighbourhoods are dangerous, dirty but there are no places in Holland where you can see more Bentleys, Jaquars etc etc. And even hard working Dutch can't affort such cars, make your own conclusion!
Btw, which persons do you mean with Populists?

[Mediocrates]

Aa populist, a self professed grass-roots, the government is bad, soapbox demogogue. A movement of wealthy elites who claim they speak for the downtrodden and who are opposed to the government, big business, foreign relations. Anarchists and Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, and Wesley Clarke are populists. So are some hate groups like the Patriot movement and the neo Confederates. Yes I know that goes against the dictionary definition of poulism but it's more closely true to what it is.

[Bahia]

Well I have to say that NiekNL my fellow Dutch member of this forum,
probably has not had any contacts with Muslims, coming from Marocco, Turkye or elswhere. Although I am also dutch, I do not recognize the image Niek Nl creates by mentioning Muslims driving in Bentley's, and other big cars.

The Muslims I have met are hard working people and drive in a Peugot 105,
(except one Muslim, I happen to know driving a sportcar MG, but he is a
specialist and he has all the rights to drive in that car, even without me!)

The problems, i am not denying, but Imagine you being a son of a Dutch settler in Maroc, being discriminated all the time by getting jobs. And besides
the current problems with Maroc jouth, you cannot deny that the last 25 years Holland did not like the Muslims, being Maroccan, Turkisch etc. at all.

In that respekt I don't like Nationalism, medicrates!, Holland has not acted friendly towards Muslim immigrants, they have been discriminated by getting jobs and were merely tolerated because of the hard work they did in area were the Dutch would not like to work.

By the way, Mediocrates, I sincerely doubt for almost 100% that our current Muslim inhabitants want to create a seperate state with it's own laws.
Like there are so much differences in groups, our Muslims are western orientated. (except the extremist young muslims who have apparantly big identity problems)

And about our identity you write about as being 'bubbles', well dispite
all problems and dislikes, Holland wants to be a state that is tolerant. You don't have to wear wooden shoes if you want to become Dutch!
In that sense, remaining open minded and tolerant I am a Nationalist!, because that aspect of our society I do embrace.
Regarding towards hostility against f.e. Muslims i am not a Nationalist, because I like diversity of cultures and not only Dutch stampot (a dutch meal)

[NiekNL]

Well I have to say that NiekNL my fellow Dutch member of this forum,
probably has not had any contacts with Muslims, coming from Marocco, Turkye or elswhere. Although I am also dutch, I do not recognize the image Niek Nl creates by mentioning Muslims driving in Bentley's, and other big cars.

Well, I have been to a school (3 years) where 30% was Muslim> and I have met hunderds of Muslims personally cause we lived next to a refugee camp.
And not seeing Muslims driving big cars? Where do you live?
And btw, I have an uncle who is Muslim.


The Muslims I have met are hard working people and drive in a Peugot 105,
(except one Muslim, I happen to know driving a sportcar MG, but he is a
specialist and he has all the rights to drive in that car, even without me!)


I'm not talking about 'rights' to drive an expensive car.


The problems, i am not denying, but Imagine you being a son of a Dutch settler in Maroc, being discriminated all the time by getting jobs. And besides
the current problems with Maroc jouth, you cannot deny that the last 25 years Holland did not like the Muslims, being Maroccan, Turkisch etc. at all.


Well, Bahia remember that they (second generation etc) never wanted to work at the first place! And they are discriminated by Dutch employers cause most of them cause problems ( my father has experience with that). And they still can get jobs cause there are so many jobs, but they just don't want to! And you said: ''you cannot deny that the last 25 years Holland did not like the Muslims'' Make it after 25 years, cause they where welcomed like heroes!


And BTW> ask yourself this question: why do many Dutch hate Dutch Muslims??????? Think and come to the conclusion: the Dutch are right. If you don't come to this conclusion, say so and I will tell you to get the Why>

[Bahia]

Hallo NiekNL, You asked me a question why the Dutch hate the Dutch muslims?

Well I think mostly because we as Dutch tend to stick to our rooms and television and are not that open minded at all towards other cultures and races. We keep ourselves separated from different cultures and we tend to
discriminate people of other colours, cultures. Off course not all of the dutch, but in conversations you hear a lot of it. So we have to work on that, i quess.

[NiekNL]

Hallo NiekNL, You asked me a question why the Dutch hate the Dutch muslims?

Well I think mostly because we as Dutch tend to stick to our rooms and television and are not that open minded at all towards other cultures and races. We keep ourselves separated from different cultures and we tend to
discriminate people of other colours, cultures. Off course not all of the dutch, but in conversations you hear a lot of it. So we have to work on that, i quess.

''We keep ourselves separated from different cultures and we tend to
discriminate people of other colours, cultures.'' .........> WE?????

Excuse me, who where the people who embraced all the new Muslims coming to Holland 25 years ago, that where the Dutch> they were very open to other people, cultures etc etc. But the Muslims however, instead of adepting the Dutch language and habits, they kept using arabic, kept using their habits> and I'm not saying they have to eat ''zuurkool met worst'', they just have to adept enough to function normally! But they don't!!!

So |Conclusion: We are not the ones to work on it: they have to work on it, and if they won't then send them back to their stupid al magraib mountains or where ever they came from! They may hate us, thay may mistreat their woman they may do whatever stupid thing is in the Koran! But not here!!!

[Leon]

Hallo NiekNL, You asked me a question why the Dutch hate the Dutch muslims?

Well I think mostly because we as Dutch tend to stick to our rooms and television and are not that open minded at all towards other cultures and races. We keep ourselves separated from different cultures and we tend to
discriminate people of other colours, cultures. Off course not all of the dutch, but in conversations you hear a lot of it. So we have to work on that, i quess.

There are two extremes. xenophobic and bigoted people and over-tolerant people.

The Dutch are probably the most tolerant and open people in the world -- in fact its probably the only country in the world I know where you dont even need to know or learn the native language in order to permantly live and work there.

Latley, this over-tolerance has gotten Holland into allot of trouble.

to say what you just said of Dutch people, speaks of insanity..

[NiekNL]

to say what you just said of Dutch people, speaks of insanity..

Correct>

[Bahia]

This over-tolerance you write about is due to the fact that in fact we are not that tolerant after all , as we as country pretend to be!
There are a lot of feelings of resentment towards f.e. muslim culture.
Because of there different habits, using other clothes etc.
But the resentment is only resently expressed and debated of openly.
So political Holland has been profiled as the most tolerant nation in the world, but in fact, the people were as people from every other country.

But discussing it is a good thing. By the way nowadays people have to follow lanquage and culture classes and get a certificate before entering Holland.

[NiekNL]

This over-tolerance you write about is due to the fact that in fact we are not that tolerant after all , as we as country pretend to be!
There are a lot of feelings of resentment towards f.e. muslim culture.
Because of there different habits, using other clothes etc.
But the resentment is only resently expressed and debated of openly.
So political Holland has been profiled as the most tolerant nation in the world, but in fact, the people were as people from every other country.

But discussing it is a good thing. By the way nowadays people have to follow lanquage and culture classes and get a certificate before entering Holland.

We are not longer tolerant against Muslims! We are still tolerant against any other cultural/ethnic/religious group in Holland! And you say >''Because of there different habits, using other clothes etc.''< Well first the clothes: if you see those woman which have only the eyes visible> what do you think>
1: Ooh, this is so great, the expression of their religion, ooh what is this good!
2: You've got 24 hours to wear normal clothes or you get the next flight to the country you came from!

Well, I think number 2 is the only option!

And you can hardly call the Muslim Culture a Culture cause they have nothing special> a history with wars etc etc. Christians, Jews, Hindoes, Buddha's left a heritage to the world! But Muslims nothing.
And theire nowadays culture they use in Holland: Honour murders/ opression: Ooh what a nice culture, and their prays in which they call for hate, ooh what nice> long live the Muslim Culture!!!!!

And they have to get classes before getting to Holland:
First you don't need to follow these direct! You may enter the country first then follow the classes!
And don't forget the one million Mulsims who are here already>>>>>>

[Leon]

I've never heard of a country where immigrants - especially illegal immigrants - can obtain citizenship and have their children, grandchildren etc (who are all born and raised in the new country and are citizens) not learn one word of the native language let alone the culture - that country is Holland.

[NiekNL]

I've never heard of a country where immigrants - especially illegal immigrants - can obtain citizenship and have their children, grandchildren etc (who are all born and raised in the new country and are citizens) not learn one word of the native language let alone the culture - that country is Holland.

Yup, that's very very sad, but Bahia does seem to like it or?
Please Bahia explain the 'why', thank you.........

[Bahia]

to NiekNL,

I don't know where your e almost hate towards muslims come from as they never have attacked Holland, or want to destroy Holland. So for that reason I do not understand you wanting them to move back to their 'mountains' and such as you mentioned.

You have a retarded image of our muslim citizins. You mentioning they wear all Burka's, well that's not truth at all. A lot of modern muslim girls even do not wear veils. They are fully integrated.

Only a thin majority fallen into the hands of extremists thoughts really are a priority to handle.

[NiekNL]

to NiekNL,

I don't know where your e almost hate towards muslims come from as they never have attacked Holland, or want to destroy Holland. So for that reason I do not understand you wanting them to move back to their 'mountains' and such as you mentioned.

You have a retarded image of our muslim citizins. You mentioning they wear all Burka's, well that's not truth at all. A lot of modern muslim girls even do not wear veils. They are fully integrated.

Only a thin majority fallen into the hands of extremists thoughts really are a priority to handle.

Well, I am not positive about Muslims, but I never said I hated them>
And not wanting to destroy Holland :confused: what in all these mosques where they pray to hate us / kill us etc etc. So if a Muslim prays hate,they have to be send back! That's obvious don't you think so?

Fully intigrated? Why does 30% of the Muslims not even speak a word Dutch???

And only a few Muslims are extremists??? I don't know if you find 10% a few< but I think that 10% is MUCH!!! ( 10% of Dutch Muslims said to have no problems when ethnic Dutch are killed, and think that only Muslims shouls survive<survey from the: telegraaf, Hollands biggest Newspaper)
So I wonder why you still think positive about them>

[Bahia]

Why I like them?
The muslims I have met are friendly people, so I have no reason to dislike them.
As a country we have not been attacked by them, we are only facing difficulties with fundamentalist stupidity which also found it's way in Holland.
But we have other difficulties to face then f.e. Israël. Israël faces hostility from the Muslimfundamentalists. In that regard I have difficulties whith fundamentalist Muslimism and off course Israël has to defend itself from it.

But we in the west face difficulties of integration between the different cultures. And for us, I think it is no use to remain hostile towards Muslims from whereever, who's current generation try's it's best to be good citizens.

It's better to be in dialoque than to demonize the Dutch Muslim citizins.
And just be friends in some cases. May be we can help in Europe to accept
the muslims and prefend that certain Muslim younger people go to the fundamental site.

If we choose to be or remain hostile towards them, even though they have the Dutch Nationality, than we create an athmosphere were they tend to go the extremist way.

You have a better solution, besides moving them out to their former places?

[NiekNL]

As a country we have not been attacked by them, we are only facing difficulties with fundamentalist stupidity which also found it's way in Holland.
But we have other difficulties to face then f.e. Israël. Israël faces hostility from the Muslimfundamentalists. In that regard I have difficulties whith fundamentalist Muslimism and off course Israël has to defend itself from it.

Obvious>



But we in the west face difficulties of integration between the different cultures. And for us, I think it is no use to remain hostile towards Muslims from whereever, who's current generation try's it's best to be good citizens.

You think wrong twice>
First: We are not facing difficulties between cultures but between Muslims and Non-Muslims.
Second: The current generation is not doing his best> it is getting worse with every following generation, look to all the Muslim youth's who hang on the streets all day, refuse going to school> while many east asians are high educated and all try their best to study!



It's better to be in dialoque than to demonize the Dutch Muslim citizins.
And just be friends in some cases. May be we can help in Europe to accept
the muslims and prefend that certain Muslim younger people go to the fundamental site.

And I do not demonize them> I only discuss this with friends/ relatives and on this forum. And we do accept Muslims!!! They don't accept us!!!!!!!!! And Muslim youth's going to the fundamental side are being brain washed by the imam's etc etc to hate us murder us> we are not to blame>


If we choose to be or remain hostile towards them, even though they have the Dutch Nationality, than we create an athmosphere were they tend to go the extremist way.

You are turning the issue!!! They are hostile> they are extremists!!!
Bahia> please think about this>.................



You have a better solution, besides moving them out to their former places?

I don't have you?
Btw: why isn't this a good solution>
We get rid of them.
They can practise their Jihad's etc etc at home.
Everybody's happy..............

[Leon]

to NiekNL,

I don't know where your e almost hate towards muslims come from as they never have attacked Holland, or want to destroy Holland. So for that reason I do not understand you wanting them to move back to their 'mountains' and such as you mentioned.

You have a retarded image of our muslim citizins. You mentioning they wear all Burka's, well that's not truth at all. A lot of modern muslim girls even do not wear veils. They are fully integrated.

Only a thin majority fallen into the hands of extremists thoughts really are a priority to handle.

Bahia, whats comes out of the mosques of Europe not to mention my home country of Australia...and lets not forget the Middle East, should give us all a clear indication.

[NiekNL]

Bahia, whats comes out of the mosques of Europe not to mention my home country of Australia...and lets not forget the Middle East, should give us all a clear indication.

Exacly> so think and learn, it is not to late yet bahia.

[Bahia]

Off course one should be aware of those tendencies.
"But generalizing over the whole muslimcommunity, for me does not make sense!

[NiekNL]

Off course one should be aware of those tendencies.
"But generalizing over the whole muslimcommunity, for me does not make sense!

I know not all Muslims are the same.
But I wanna know why you blame the Dutch instead of the Muslims :confused:

[Bahia]

I am not blaming the Dutch, I am just self critical and as such looking to our society which has not have a past of accepting our Muslimcitizens as being eqaul to us the last 50 years. They were accepted only as low workers but not given the same treatment as fellow citizins, regarding towards workoppor-tunities. As long as they were doing the dirty jobs we accepted them.

By the way only in a very few Mosks hatred is spread and those Mosks are
being taken care of, those Imams have to leave the country. When there is
really the fact of hatred spreading then such a Imam has to be send back to where he came from. But no "whichhunting" and by law!

Extremist fundamentalist thoughts coming from whatever direction has to
be taken care of, we have to handle that. But putting a whole Muslim community in a corner of 'hatespreading' etc. is not right to do so, it simply is not truth, if you love truth and law, you ought to think about that!

Bye the way this will be my last post in this discussion with you NiekNL.
This thread does not handle Dutch inneraffairs but Israël inner affairs. I don't think we will ever agree, but I respect your opion.
See you somewhere else on the forum.

[NiekNL]

Bye the way this will be my last post in this discussion with you NiekNL.
This thread does not handle Dutch inneraffairs but Israël inner affairs. I don't think we will ever agree, but I respect your opion.
See you somewhere else on the forum.

:confused: okay

[Reffo]

The following letter was published in the latest edition of TIME magazine by a member of the chattering class ...
RE THE FALL OF THE BERLIN WALL 20 YEARS ago, I pray that I will see the day that the world manages to force Israel to demolish the wall of hate it has erected illegally. That wall and Israel's illegal settlements are making a peaceful resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict virtually impossible. You recollect that President Reagan famously urged Moscow to "tear down this wall". It is high time President Obama and Western Leaders to say exactly those same words to Israel - and to impose sanctions if it doesn't comply.

Wow .... what a mouthfull! Now let's look, dispationately at each item which is highlighted in bold, in the above letter and lets discuss it logically rather than emotively (which is the style that this member of the chattering class uses - come to think of it, they ALL do) ...

"force Israel to demolish the wall of hate": OK then, force the nations in the list below to demolish their "wall/s of hate" ...

The Great wall of Morocco (2720Km long) which is designed to stop infiltration and attacks by the Polisario Front ..
South Korea's wall between it and North Korea ..
Saudi Arabia's security wall between it and Yemen
Saudi arabia's 900km wall between it and Iraq
Turkey's wall in Cyprus to separate the Turkish and Greek sides..
The 75Km wall between Thailand and Malaysia designed to stop Muslim terrorist infiltration from Malysia
The wall that is currently being erected by the USA in the Mexican border, designed to stop the inflow of illegal immigrants..
Spain's wall which was designed to stop the entry of illegal immigrants from Morocco
Various walls in Ireland which seperate Catholics from Protestants..
The wall that Botswana erected between it's border and Zimbabwe
Last but not least, the wall which Pakistan erected between it's border and Afghanistan..

Israel's wall is no less justified than those walls. In fact it is more justified because it was built in response to murderous homocide bombings of Israeli civilians by Islamist terrorists. And indeed the wall reduced the fatalities of Israeli civilians by 98.5% so it has been a roaring success!

"illegally": Really? Israel's wall is illegal? So be it .... homocide bombing of civilians is illegal too!

"a peaceful resolution": Will ONLY happen when Palestinian Arabs and their supporters will regain their senses and will REALLY accept Israel as the state of the Jewish people and will REALLY give up on their idea of eliminating the Jewish state (whether by direct violence or by stealth by forcing it to accept suicidal political solutions like the so called Right of Return..).

"famously urged Moscow to "tear down this wall": This one is a master stroke it elicits the idea of us (Reagan, the US and the Palestinian Arabs) and them (Israel and the Soviets). However it is a falsification of history: It was the Palestinians who were the staunch allies of the Soviets and Israel was vilified by the Soviets ..

And another thing which is wrong with it: The Berlin wall separated ONE people, the GERMAN people. Israel's wall separates two peoples: The Jewish nation and the Arab nation ...

"and to impose sanctions if it doesn't comply": This seems to be a recurring wet dream of the Palestinian Arabs and their motley assortment of supporters..

PS
I am getting frustrated with TIME magazine (I am one of their subscribers - for now). While I am not against seeing views opposed to mine but it seems to me that this magazine tends to, at least lately, publish ONLY views which are invariably critical of Israel and not in a fair way but by using subtle propaganda, not necessarily lies but distortions, half truths, ommissions and reporting without proper context. Such tactics are as good as lies especially if they use endless repetition to reinforce their message and never publishing alternative points of view.

[Mediocrates]

Planetologists want to run a wall across the entire Sahara to prevent desertification.