A tip to help you argue in support of the security fence

[Womble]

If you, like me, keep stumbing upon morons who claim that the security fance is a "land grab" or an attempt to pre-determine the future Israeli-Palestinian border in favor of Israel- here's some ammunition for your fight.

I have lately been visiting a blog of a certain anti-Israeli activist. In one of his last post, he linked to a bunch of photos of "heroic" Palestinians tearing down a section of the security fence. The photos are on the ISM website, so you might want to hold your nose while looking- but believe me, its worth it.

http://palsolidarity.org/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?tabID=0&alias=Rainbow&lang=en-US&ItemID=364&mid=10439&wversion=Staging

Have a look on the second photo, the one that shows a section of the barrier lying on the ground. You can clearly see the concrete foundation. It is flat-bottomed- that is, its not ripped off a larger foundation that is dug deep into the ground. This concrete pad is what the fence actually stands of. All of it is made of rather small separate sections, like a Lego puzzle, and the foundation height is barely 20 centimeters. The trench left after the foundation was dug out is VERY shallow. On other photos, you can also see how exactly the protestors tore the fence down- by simply leaning on it with their weight.

And I am asking you- is that how you build a structure that is there to stay? Is it not obvious enough that the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery?

[Sumud]

Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.

And I guess that's also the reason why the Israeli Govt sent letters to Palestinian in East Jersualm advising them that Israel was confiscating their land behind the security barier - so they could give it back one day?

[Mediocrates]

Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.



They are about 4% of the total length. Next you'll be complaining about the shape of the Gallilee.

[golani]

[QUOTE=Sumud]Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.

Let's repeat once more:the 8km 6 meters high concrete barrier in Abu dis is designed to prevent potentiel snipers to shoot car drivers on the nearby motorway

8 kms of concrete wall out of 700 kms of fence,that is not a big deal

Now ,let us speak about the wall separating USA from Mexico....

[Sumud]

And what is the practical function of confiscating Palestinian land behind the barrier?

[Mediocrates]

1 - It's not theirs to claim it is.

2 - Such is the realities of national emergence.

3 - Tough darts.

[Luke90]

And I am asking you- is that how you build a structure that is there to stay?
It's certainly how I'd build a barrier that I wanted up quickly.
The permanence of the particular structure that's there now has little bearing on how long there will be some form of fence there.

[Mira]

Palestinian terrorists built that fence. Anybody who thinks that the fence should be built exactly along the green line has either never been to Israel and has no appreciation for the natural landscape or just doesn't care about Israel's security needs.

[Womble]

Apparantly it's the same with the 6m high concrete barriers - they're just standing there for easy removal.
Actually, yes.

Check out any picture of the concrete sections of the barrier, and you will see that they have exactly the same "Lego puzzle" structure- narrow sections loosely put together and not dug in all that deep. Building a solid wall would be logistically easier and financially cheaper.


And I guess that's also the reason why the Israeli Govt sent letters to Palestinian in East Jersualm advising them that Israel was confiscating their land behind the security barier - so they could give it back one day?
This land isn't exactly being confiscated in its common understanding, Sumud. De-jure, the land's owners remain rightful owners and can either apply for compensations or file a lawsuit against the confiscation. They still retain the right to claim their land back once the barrier is re-routed or removed.

[Sumud]

Womble, you're wrong on all counts.

The photo you referred to is only a part of the barrier. It's not even clear if this is a photo of the actual barrier or just a bit of fencing.

This CSM article gives a diagram (at the very end) of what the final barrier actually consists of. http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0808/p01s05-wome.html?leftNavInclude

As for the concrete sections being like 'leggo', are you kidding?
The 26ft high sections are concreted in place. This poured concrete at it's base comes almost up to shoulder height of an average person.

And it isn't just around Abu Dis, Qalqiliya is almost completely surrounded by the concrete monstrosity.


Not confiscated?? Let's see, Israel takes the land, builds Jewish settlements on it at a cost of millions of NIS, and then they just give it back when they're done. You have a bridge for sale too, I bet.

[KettleWhistle]

Womble, you're wrong on all counts.

The photo you referred to is only a part of the barrier. It's not even clear if this is a photo of the actual barrier or just a bit of fencing.

This CSM article gives a diagram (at the very end) of what the final barrier actually consists of. http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0808/p01s05-wome.html?leftNavInclude

As for the concrete sections being like 'leggo', are you kidding?
The 26ft high sections are concreted in place. This poured concrete at it's base comes almost up to shoulder height of an average person.

And it isn't just around Abu Dis, Qalqiliya is almost completely surrounded by the concrete monstrosity.


Not confiscated?? Let's see, Israel takes the land, builds Jewish settlements on it at a cost of millions of NIS, and then they just give it back when they're done. You have a bridge for sale too, I bet.

So? If you people don't like it, then leave. You want your own state? Great. Just don't complain that you are being walled off. Separating you from us REALLY is the whole idea here.

[Womble]

Womble, you're wrong on all counts.

The photo you referred to is only a part of the barrier. It's not even clear if this is a photo of the actual barrier or just a bit of fencing.
The link said it was the barrier. Then again, it's an ISM link, and they are a bunch of liars.


As for the concrete sections being like 'leggo', are you kidding?
The 26ft high sections are concreted in place. This poured concrete at it's base comes almost up to shoulder height of an average person.
This (http://www.palestinercs.org/images/Separation%20Wall/separationwall(Al-ttur)021203WBRR2.jpg) photo gives a pretty good view of the sections. This (http://www.noisebetweenstations.com/personal/weblogs/images/israel.wall.jpg) one shows the base- barely the height of a 10 year old kid, one meter something- not much to balance a 26ft high piece of concrete.


And it isn't just around Abu Dis, Qalqiliya is almost completely surrounded by the concrete monstrosity.
I know. The "wall" sections are built in the areas where there is a possibility of sniper fire at the nearby Israeli communities or roads from the Palestinian side of the barrier.


Not confiscated?? Let's see, Israel takes the land, builds Jewish settlements on it at a cost of millions of NIS, and then they just give it back when they're done. You have a bridge for sale too, I bet.
What do the settlements have to do with that? We were discussing the barrier, weren't we? Why jump the subject all of a sudden? The settlements are a whole other issue.

[Sumud]

This (http://www.palestinercs.org/images/Separation%20Wall/separationwall(Al-ttur)021203WBRR2.jpg) photo gives a pretty good view of the sections. This (http://www.noisebetweenstations.com/personal/weblogs/images/israel.wall.jpg) one shows the base- barely the height of a 10 year old kid, one meter something- not much to balance a 26ft high piece of concrete.
Yeah, those kids are just going to squeeze past it, or maybe they'll just push the 'leggo block' wall over, as you were suggesting earlier. :rolleyes:



What do the settlements have to do with that? We were discussing the barrier, weren't we? Why jump the subject all of a sudden? The settlements are a whole other issue.
Everything. In fact you brought it up. I realise it was a long time ago, but do you remember writing this?
'Is it not obvious enough that the the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery'
I can't wait to see how easy it is to remove the 26ft high concrete wall that is cemented in place and the 700km of double trenches, pathways, fences and razor wire.

And I guess the new housing will be made of straw so that they can be easily removed later. :rolleyes:

Any luck selling that bridge yet?

[Womble]

Yeah, those kids are just going to squeeze past it, or maybe they'll just push the 'leggo block' wall over, as you were suggesting earlier. :rolleyes:
I was suggesting no such thing. Leave the straw men alone.


Everything. In fact you brought it up.
I did? I've talked about settlements in this thread? Quote please.


I realise it was a long time ago, but do you remember writing this?
'Is it not obvious enough that the the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery'
I can't wait to see how easy it is to remove the 26ft high concrete wall that is cemented in place and the 700km of double trenches, pathways, fences and razor wire.
Many sections of the barrier have already been re-routed. It's not impossible. That is why, as I have demonsrated, the barrier is designed the way it is- so re-routing would cost less.


And I guess the new housing will be made of straw so that they can be easily removed later. :rolleyes:
Nope. You've used all the straw making your straw men.


Any luck selling that bridge yet?
What are you on?

[Sumud]

Womble, if it's so easy to re-route than re-route the entire thing to Israeli soil. They can build the damn thing a 1000ft high and no one will care.

Of course the settlements are an issue. If the fence is temporary, then why build houses near it on confiscated land?

Any more brilliant tips?

[Womble]

Womble, if it's so easy to re-route than re-route the entire thing to Israeli soil. They can build the damn thing a 1000ft high and no one will care.
Well its not quite that simple. The calculations of those building the barrier are those of defence and not those of politics. Whenever the defence necessity dictates that the barrier deviates from the Green Line, it deviates, and not always to the Palestinian side, btw. I believe there is at least one Jewish town that had filed a lawsuit to the High Court because (take that!) it cuts the town people off their farming lands. Plus the settlements, while they are there, also need protection. Even if you believe that the settlers live in a place that isn't theirs, it's not good enough a reason to let someone kill them for it.


Of course the settlements are an issue. If the fence is temporary, then why build houses near it on confiscated land?
It might be news to you, but there are people living in the settlements. Whatever solution will eventually be found for them, its not found yet. In the meanwhile, these people need to be protected. Clear enough for you?


Any more brilliant tips?
When I have more free time. At the moment I am too busy studying the Nazi influences on Gamal Abdel Nasser. ;)

[golani]

Any more brilliant tips?[/QUOTE from sumud ]


Yes,with great pleasure..
This defensive fence helped defeat the islamofascist terrorist campaign initiated 4 years ago againt Israel
This palestinian defeat coupled with arafat's death allowed the resumption of peace talks between the two parties...

Long live the fence,looking forward to its full completion as soon as possible
Am israel Hai,

Golani

[Sumud]

Well its not quite that simple. The calculations of those building the barrier are those of defence and not those of politics. Whenever the defence necessity dictates that the barrier deviates from the Green Line, it deviates, and not always to the Palestinian side, btw. I believe there is at least one Jewish town that had filed a lawsuit to the High Court because (take that!) it cuts the town people off their farming lands.
One Jewish town had a close shave with near disaster. That’s a real modern day tragedy.

What about the hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages affected similarly?





When I have more free time. At the moment I am too busy studying the Nazi influences on Gamal Abdel Nasser. ;)
At the same time you should check out the influence on a former Israeli PM - Yitzhak Shamir. 'Principles of Renaissance' is a fascinating little read.

[Womble]

One Jewish town had a close shave with near disaster. That’s a real modern day tragedy.

What about the hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages affected similarly?
You're at your circular logic again. I was bringing it up as an example that the Palestinians aren't the only one losing land due to the barrier. And you...refer me back to the fact that some Palestinians are being cut off their land due to the barrier. Ever heard of coherence?


At the same time you should check out the influence on a former Israeli PM - Yitzhak Shamir. 'Principles of Renaissance' is a fascinating little read.
Hmm, enlighten me.

[Harry]

If you, like me, keep stumbing upon morons who claim that the security fance is a "land grab" or an attempt to pre-determine the future Israeli-Palestinian border in favor of Israel- here's some ammunition for your fight.

I have lately been visiting a blog of a certain anti-Israeli activist. In one of his last post, he linked to a bunch of photos of "heroic" Palestinians tearing down a section of the security fence. The photos are on the ISM website, so you might want to hold your nose while looking- but believe me, its worth it.

http://palsolidarity.org/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?tabID=0&alias=Rainbow&lang=en-US&ItemID=364&mid=10439&wversion=Staging

Have a look on the second photo, the one that shows a section of the barrier lying on the ground. You can clearly see the concrete foundation. It is flat-bottomed- that is, its not ripped off a larger foundation that is dug deep into the ground. This concrete pad is what the fence actually stands of. All of it is made of rather small separate sections, like a Lego puzzle, and the foundation height is barely 20 centimeters. The trench left after the foundation was dug out is VERY shallow. On other photos, you can also see how exactly the protestors tore the fence down- by simply leaning on it with their weight.

And I am asking you- is that how you build a structure that is there to stay? Is it not obvious enough that the fence is being built as a temporary solution and that it is so designed as to be easily removed when necessery?

:(

The Palestinian People have a great imagination that one day they will have Isreal But wew have had our lessons of these kind of People in Hitler time & we dont need another on . I know i fought in the Canadian Army in the 2nd W.W & beides being a jew wqho had taken a lot of Garbage from people & Pain all i want to see the Survival 0of us Jews I know wht its like to Suffer & have to kill the enemy . In ewar we have no FREINDS just Fire power. Yes & my Grandsons are going there & one of my grandsons also fought in the Kuwat war where the Americns forced all the Jewish kids to take off any Jewish Identy while he was in Saudi Arabi. Thats Americn Freedom <s>.

Its hiding under the covers etc.

This is my opinion & truth .

Harry : :(

[SteveK]

And what is the practical function of confiscating Palestinian land behind the barrier?

Hi Sumud,

I would like to add one more item to the response of Mediocrates:


1 - It's not theirs to claim it is.

2 - Such is the realities of national emergence.

3 - Tough darts.


4 - There are millions and millions of American Jews ready to immigrate
here to Israel, and liquidate all their current assets in synagogues, land,
religious schools, "Zionist" camps, Jewish Community Centers,
etc.,- bringing billions and billions of dollars for investment to Israel
for their new Jewish settlements here on their God given Land.

[Womble]

Hi Sumud,

I would like to add one more item to the response of Mediocrates:





4 - There are millions and millions of American Jews ready to immigrate
here to Israel, and liquidate all their current assets in synagogues, land,
religious schools, "Zionist" camps, Jewish Community Centers,
etc.,- bringing billions and billions of dollars for investment to Israel
for their new Jewish settlements here on their God given Land.
...which has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.

[SteveK]

...which has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.


Hi Womble,

Sure it does.

Have you ever heard of "Building a Fence around Torah"? It means that you do even extra things to protect the holiness of the mitzvot. There is also a joke about it: Why do we build a fence around Torah? To make a SAFER TORAH !!!! (The people have to understand some Hebrew to get the pun)
The word SAFER in Hebrew means 'Book' or 'Book of' and the word SAFER in English is known by everybody here who reads English.

You are talking about building a fence for security.

What is really needed for the building of a fence for our security is an aliyah enmasse from these millions of diaspora Jews to settle all the Land of Israel with populations that no Israeli government would dare expell, or even have the slightest thought of expelling for political expediency.

Mass aliyah is truly building our security fence around our claim to our God given Land.

[KettleWhistle]

What we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies en masse. 20-children families will solve most of our current problems within generation.

[Mediocrates]

Yemen and Saudi Arabia have a very high birthrates. In a generation 3 out of 4 people there will be under the age of 16 and there will be no one to work. Now today in Saudi Arabia, a mere 3 million Saudis have real jobs with the rest filled by foreigners. Israel can't possibly do this.

[KettleWhistle]

Israel isn't Yemen or Saudi Arabia. It is a developed country, and such increase in population will not hurt it, just like the massive aliahs didn't hurt it.

[golani]

What we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies en masse. 20-children families will solve most of our current problems within generation.


I only have two young kids and I am already exhausted ... :p

[KettleWhistle]

I only have two young kids and I am already exhausted ... :p

From kids or from having kids?:p

[KettleWhistle]

Womble, if it's so easy to re-route than re-route the entire thing to Israeli soil. They can build the damn thing a 1000ft high and no one will care.
This is actually one of my favorite statements in the "security fence" arguments. So apparently, has it been build "on Israeli soil" it would not be an aparteid barrier anymore, there wouldn't have been any problems with logistics for the "Palestinians," checkpoints wouldn't be a problem. And so we can see that the above-listed excuses, are just that-excuses, and have nothing to do with the supposed problems the security fence allegedly creates.

And regarding the land--it is not "Palestinian" as it was not won in war from a country called Palestine, and since Jordan decided that it doesn't want it, the territories are disputed.

[Luke90]

And regarding the land--it is not "Palestinian" as it was not won in war from a country called Palestine, and since Jordan decided that it doesn't want it, the territories are disputed.
It's a common and sensible tag for for it. What would you prefer people to call it? I suppose you could say "the disputed territory" in this context as everyone would know which disputed territories you're talking about, but in general we have to call it something.

So apparently, has it been build "on Israeli soil" it would not be an aparteid barrier anymore, there wouldn't have been any problems with logistics for the "Palestinians," checkpoints wouldn't be a problem. And so we can see that the above-listed excuses, are just that-excuses, and have nothing to do with the supposed problems the security fence allegedly creates.
I think I missed your point here. You didn't seem to say anything to counter the argument and I didn't really understand what you were trying to say. Could you clarify what you meant?

[KettleWhistle]

It's a common and sensible tag for for it.
What makes it sensible? These territories are in dispute, and there is simply no precedent to declare them to be "Palestinian."

I think I missed your point here. You didn't seem to say anything to counter the argument and I didn't really understand what you were trying to say. Could you clarify what you meant?
My point here is simple: we often hear that the fence is an "aparteid wall" and creates all these problems because it is on "Palestinian soil." However, first of all, there is no such thing as "Palestinian soil/land" since "Palestinians" do not have a state with internationally recognized borders, and the land in question was not conquered from such a state.

But more important, these people would not be calling this fence an "aparteid wall" has it been built a mile or two west of where it is right now. So the "Palestinian soil" argument goes to show that they don't have any problems with the fence separating the two sides, and thus it invalidates the "aparteid" argument.

[Harry]

en masse[/i]. 20-children families will solve most of our current problems within generation.



Hi Whisle:
You Say that>>>we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies<< :)

Yes i guess you are right bUt isnt that what is taking place now there with some of the relegious people there . BUT wht they have to do is Give them Child Bonuses as they do here in Canada It worked for awhile inQuebec Province here in Canada.

The other thing is to outlaw Babymakung amongst the Arab Population in Israel Just like in China.

That would lower there birth rate in Israel & they would eventualy leave or jus diseaper. :D

[KettleWhistle]

Hi Whisle:
You Say that>>>we need is for Israeli and other Jews to start making babies<< :)

Yes i guess you are right bUt isnt that what is taking place now there with some of the relegious people there . BUT wht they have to do is Give them Child Bonuses as they do here in Canada It worked for awhile inQuebec Province here in Canada.
The problem with child bonuses that existed in Israel until a couple years ago was the increasing subsidy for each additional child. And that gave plenty of money and impetus for baby-making to the poor Beduins who often have 20+ children. The deeply religious Jews aren't that big on being on being fruitful and multiplying, as they usually stop at number 6 or 7.


The other thing is to outlaw Babymakung amongst the Arab Population in Israel Just like in China.

That would lower there birth rate in Israel & they would eventualy leave or jus diseaper. :D
I would opt for improving their TV reception and quality programming. It is known to work well in providing an alternative recreational activity.

[Womble]

Another tip:

The most powerful source of reference to use in tthe security fence related discussions- especially when your opponents draw out the ICJ ruling as their trump card, is the separate opinion of the ICJ judge Higgins. It's a really interesting piece. On one hand, Higgins voted in favor of the ruling that declared the barrier unlawful. On the other hand, in her "separate opinion" she demolishes every single argument of the case and uses rather strong language. Her own reasons for supporting the ruling are so obviously made up that I am pretty sure that she was somehow intimidated into voting the way she did.

Anyway, this (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwpframe.htm) is the link- and these are the quotes:

15. Addressing the reality that “the question of the construction of the wall was only one aspect of the Israeli‑Palestinian conflict”, the Court states that it “is indeed aware that the question of the wall is part of a greater whole, and it would take this circumstance carefully into account in any opinion it might give” (para. 54).

16. In fact, it never does so. There is nothing in the remainder of the Opinion that can be said to cover this point. Further, I find the “history” as recounted by the Court in paragraphs 71‑76 neither balanced nor satisfactory.

...it is now accepted that the Palestinian people are a “peoples” for purposes of self‑determination. But it seems to me quite detached from reality for the Court to find that it is the wall that presents a “serious impediment” to the exercise of this right. The real impediment is the apparent inability and/or unwillingness of both Israel and Palestine to move in parallel to secure the necessary conditions- that is, at one and the same time, for Israel to withdraw from Arab occupied territory and for Palestine to provide the conditions to allow Israel to feel secure in so doing. The simple point is underscored by the fact that if the wall had never been built, the Palestinians would still not yet have exercised their right to self‑determination. It seems to me both unrealistic and unbalanced for the Court to find that the wall (rather than “the larger problem”, which is beyond the question put to the Court for an opinion) is a serious obstacle to self‑determination.

31. Nor is this finding any more persuasive when looked at from a territorial perspective. As the Court states in paragraph 121, the wall does not at the present time constitute, per se, a de facto annexation. “Peoples” necessarily exercise their right to self‑determination within their own territory. Whatever may be the detail of any finally negotiated boundary, there can be no doubt, as is said in paragraph 78 of the Opinion, that Israel is in occupation of Palestinian territory. That territory is no more, or less, under occupation because a wall has been built that runs through it.

34. I also find unpersuasive the Court’s contention that, as the uses of force emanate from occupied territory, it is not an armed attack “by one State against another”. I fail to understand the Court’s view that an occupying Power loses the right to defend its own civilian citizens at home if the attacks emanate from the occupied territory- a territory which it has found not to have been annexed and is certainly “other than” Israel. Further, Palestine cannot be sufficiently an international entity to be invited to these proceedings, and to benefit from humanitarian law, but not sufficiently an international entity for the prohibition of armed attack on others to be applicable. This is formalism of an unevenhanded sort.

I hope you find it useful. Fight bravely :)

[AbedS]

I take issue with the wall on the basis of land grabbing. Even if it's a mile, or merely even 1 foot of land, it contributes nothing to a final solution. I know alot of you on this board would be glad if the whole Arab population of the Middle East were wiped out, but that is not an option.
I think the main underlying problem in this conflict is the fact that neither side can objectively look at itself. Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.

[KettleWhistle]

A lot of us on this board would be glad if the Arabs simply left us alone in our motherland, and minded their own business.

I don't care what you people do in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or Iraq as long is doesn't involve my people--the Jews.

[Womble]

I take issue with the wall on the basis of land grabbing

Look above. Even the ICJ had recognized that the barrier DOES NOT amount to de-facto land annexation.

That territory is no more, or less, under occupation because a wall has been built that runs through it.


Even if it's a mile, or merely even 1 foot of land, it contributes nothing to a final solution.
Ahem...please be so kind and find a term other than "final solution". That one's been a bit...compromised.


I know alot of you on this board would be glad if the whole Arab population of the Middle East were wiped out, but that is not an option.
Show me one such person here.


I think the main underlying problem in this conflict is the fact that neither side can objectively look at itself. Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.
Suppose- but there is also a big danger in the "both sides always guilty, regardless of circumstances" stance. It is no more moral than blindly defending one's cause.

[frizzer1]

I hope you find it useful. Fight bravely :)

Thank you Womble but I don't really think it will make any difference no matter what we say or do.
All of us know why there was such a strong reaction to the security fence.It had nothing to do with the fact that the wall did not follow the green line.It had nothing to do with the fact that some palestinians have faced hardship as a result of the wall ( and they have ).Had any other country facing the terror that Israel faced built a similar wall, there would have been no similar outcry.
It is because Israel is a jewish state.We all know that.Terrorists trying to murder jews have been dealt a major blow.And the world community doesn't seem to be happy about that because they accept the palestinians" right to engage in terror.They accept the pals right to "self defense" ie terror.And any action Israel takes that prevents Arab terror is condemned by the world body.
Targeted killings of terrorist leaders that avoid civilian deaths are condemned the world community.
Roadblocks that screen out terrorists are condemned.
Forays into pal territory to find terrorists are condemned.
Any security operation that affects the palestinians in any way will be condemned by the world community.
We all know it.And we all know why.
And this is coming from someone who has always accepted the right of the palestinians to have a state of their own where they can live in peace and security and that Israel is not always right and should be criticized for her behaviour at times.And not just by jews.

[AbedS]

OK, you're right about "final solution", where were my manners?
As much as we'd all like to think so, the ICJ really isn't an unbiased authority. There is never a 100% unbiased judiciary anywhere, period. Please forget about your unwavering support for Israel for a second and look at it from a morilty point of view. Try to emulate Socrates.
Regardless of the legal status of the Palestinian areas, the pragmatic approach is that it is THEIR land, regardless. In the end, there are only 2 solutions to this whole mess. 1 is the eradication of every single Muslims man woman, and child in the world, over 1 billion fo them, because genocide against the Palestinians would result in a fight to the death by every Muslim on the planet to save their brethren, the other is to treat the Palestinians like they're actual PEOPLE with human needs and desires and try to be as fair as possible. It's enough that most likely, any future Palestine would have 2 non-contigeous pieces of land as it's territory, which is bad enough.
Israel already got most of the Coastline, as well as most of the Historical sites, and great farmland, so don't be too greedy, have a little bit of compassion for those people.
Israel has a modern army, what do they have?

[frizzer1]

I take issue with the wall on the basis of land grabbing. Even if it's a mile, or merely even 1 foot of land, it contributes nothing to a final solution. I know alot of you on this board would be glad if the whole Arab population of the Middle East were wiped out, but that is not an option.
I think the main underlying problem in this conflict is the fact that neither side can objectively look at itself. Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.

Womble has already responded but I will say it again.Please don't use the term "final solution" on an Israeli forum.
And spare me the lectures.What the hell do you know about us? I don't want the arabs wiped out.I simply want them to leave us in peace.
And who said that Israel is perfect?
And I have a news flash for you.Anyone can mouth platitudes.Been done to death.
Why not just stick to the facts and forget the moralizing.You haven't exactly invented the wheel here.

[AbedS]

Thank you Womble but I don't really think it will make any difference no matter what we say or do.
All of us know why there was such a strong reaction to the security fence.It had nothing to do with the fact that the wall did not follow the green line.It had nothing to do with the fact that some palestinians have faced hardship as a result of the wall ( and they have ).Had any other country facing the terror that Israel faced built a similar wall, there would have been no similar outcry.
It is because Israel is a jewish state.We all know that.Terrorists trying to murder jews have been dealt a major blow.And the world community doesn't seem to be happy about that because they accept the palestinians" right to engage in terror.They accept the pals right to "self defense" ie terror.And any action Israel takes that prevents Arab terror is condemned by the world body.
Targeted killings of terrorist leaders that avoid civilian deaths are condemned the world community.
Roadblocks that screen out terrorists are condemned.
Forays into pal territory to find terrorists are condemned.
Any security operation that affects the palestinians in any way will be condemned by the world community.
We all know it.And we all know why.
And this is coming from someone who has always accepted the right of the palestinians to have a state of their own where they can live in peace and security and that Israel is not always right and should be criticized for her behaviour at times.And not just by jews.
Please, tell me why? Is it because of Anti- Semetism? My response is waa waa waa...
Rethink your whining for a second, my friend. Can it perhaps be because of Anti- Zionism? I think so. I'm sorry if you can't see it.

[Ariksan]

Relax, you are not an Anti-Zionist, you are just brainwashed.

Oh and btw... according to your hero Nasrallah one Jewish life is worth 450 muslims. So you will need at least 9 billion muslims to defeat the Jews.

[Reffo]

Instead, both sides are defended by their proponents to the death, even if their stance is morally and religiously wrong.
It is only in the realm of fools that any nation is perfectly good.It's not so much about good or bad. Nobody claims that the fence is a "good thing" but there is a definite need for it, otherwise more Israeli civilians would die. So once you acknowledge this need (I suppose you personally wouldn't ?), the next question is how and where should it be built ? Some of Israel's critics argue that if it must be built then it should be built on the borders of the old so called "Green Line". I am somewhat ambivalent about this, on the one hand, doing so could silence the critics (?) but on the other hand it would cost more, take longer to complete and may be less practical. I must admit that on balance, I can see why Israel decided to build it where it is. Firstly, because on past record, it does not matter what Israel does, it's critics and enemies criticize it anyway. Secondly, seeing that the building of the fence was forced on them by a cruel enemy, they are not really interested in minimising the impact of the fence on that same enemy. Why should they, it's war and it's a war that the Palestinians seemed to want to perpetrate to the bitter end. Israel was only showing them that there is a price to pay for them too....Oh, and by the way, the fence does not kill people (unlike the suicide bombers which it stops)....So, was Israel right or wrong ? Only time will tell.

[KettleWhistle]

It's not so much about good or bad. Nobody claims that the fence is a "good thing" but there is a definite need for it, otherwise more Israeli civilians would die.
I claim it is a good thing. It saves lives. That makes it a good thing.

Some of Israel's critics argue that if it must be built then it should be built on the borders of the old so called "Green Line".

The so-called "Green Line" is a former cease-fire line. It has no relevance to today's situation.

[Reffo]

I claim it is a good thing. It saves lives. That makes it a good thing.Yes, I just edited my post to show this, but overall I was saying that it is unfortunate that such a thing as the fence even needs to be considered. In that sense, it is a bad thing, if the palestinian terrorism did not exist, there would be no need for the fence.

[AbedS]

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc...
Please be honest about how we got to this point. Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromise.
The fence is fine, as long as it doesn't disrupt the lives of thousands of Palestinians. I applaude the actions and decisions of the court in this matter, although I think more can be done. If you want peace and security, then try not to defacate on the Palestinians too much.
Once again, I'm sorry about the Final Sloution thing, so please jst stop commenting on it.
And just so you don't discount my words because I'm an Islamo-Terrorist as one of you affectionately put it, I was in a perdominantly jewish Fraternity, My co-workers are Jewish, and the industry I'm in is predominantly Jewish. I am part of 3 interfaith group and I hold talks at local Mosques in my area on Israel's right to exist and trhe commonalities between Islam and Judiasm.
If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.

[Womble]

OK, you're right about "final solution", where were my manners?
It's not about manners. The use of corrupt language tends to corrupt thought, as noted by the great George Orwell. Which is why I prefer using accurate terms and advise others to do the same.


As much as we'd all like to think so, the ICJ really isn't an unbiased authority. There is never a 100% unbiased judiciary anywhere, period.
Agreed.


Please forget about your unwavering support for Israel for a second and look at it from a morilty point of view.
You probably weren't around when we were discussing it, but I hold to the opinion that morality is the wrong way to approach politics with. It is too subjective a criteria to be productive.


Try to emulate Socrates.
Regardless of the legal status of the Palestinian areas, the pragmatic approach is that it is THEIR land, regardless.
Why is it the pragmatic approach? By which criteria are those lands theirs, if the legal status is to be disregarded?


In the end, there are only 2 solutions to this whole mess. 1 is the eradication of every single Muslims man woman, and child in the world, over 1 billion fo them, because genocide against the Palestinians would result in a fight to the death by every Muslim on the planet to save their brethren, the other is to treat the Palestinians like they're actual PEOPLE with human needs and desires and try to be as fair as possible.
I am not at all sure what point you are trying to make here. I do not see anyone in the present company advocating genocide of all Muslims or all Palestinians. I also see no one suggesting that the Palestinians are not human and have no human needs. I'm afraid yours is a straw man argument.


It's enough that most likely, any future Palestine would have 2 non-contigeous pieces of land as it's territory, which is bad enough.
Why is it bad? The "contigeous" demand is largely a sham. The US, for example, has no problem controlling Alaska and Hawaii despite the lack of territorial linkage.


Israel already got most of the Coastline, as well as most of the Historical sites, and great farmland, so don't be too greedy, have a little bit of compassion for those people.
Well, it's not our fault really. The founders of Israel were ready to agree to any offer of an independent state, regardless of size and borders. If the Palestinians and the Arab League chose to turn down the original partition plan, they cannot blame us if the results turned bad for them.
Besides, what "great farmland"? The only good farmland in this neighborhood is the irrigated one. If the land on the Israeli side of the Green Line is more productive, it isn't because the land is better, it is because Israel has the most advanced drip irrigation technologies on the planet.


Israel has a modern army, what do they have?
Gangs of murderous psychos who blow up their women and children to kill women and children of the enemy. Oh wait, was that a rhetorical question? :rolleyes:

[Mira]

marhaba, AbedS.

I'm coming back into this conversation towards the end, so I don't know what has transpired in this thread lately, so I'm just responding to this last post of yours.

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc...

If what you mean by "occupation" includes the 1948 territory, then ok, I agree.

Please be honest about how we got to this point. Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromise.

I agree to some extent. Israel is in a stronger position to make compromises because Palestinian society is completely broken right now. Israel should make compromises (which it has) and the government should stop playing games and stick to the promises they have made to the Palestinians. In terms of military power, however, much of what Israel has available in terms of force cannot be used, while Palestinian terrorism is a powerful tool that cannot be completely stopped. Moreover, the Palestinian terrorist organizations are backed psychologically and financially by other Arab countries and the Persians.

The fence is fine, as long as it doesn't disrupt the lives of thousands of Palestinians. I applaude the actions and decisions of the court in this matter, although I think more can be done. If you want peace and security, then try not to defacate on the Palestinians too much.
Once again, I'm sorry about the Final Sloution thing, so please jst stop commenting on it.

There are some areas where Palestinian villages and Israeli villages are not more than a couple hundred meters away from each other and the Palestinian territory actually looks down on Israeli villages, which strategically gives the terrorists in those areas the vantage point for planning attacks. Qalqilia is one such place and it also happens to be a place where many of the suicide bombers have come from over the past couple of years. So you try to minimize the disruptions and inconveniences in people's lives, but at some point you have to decide on which side you want your "casualties." Since Israeli casualties are measured in lives and Palestinian casualties are measured in time and land, the decision has been to place life above land.

And just so you don't discount my words because I'm an Islamo-Terrorist as one of you affectionately put it, I was in a perdominantly jewish Fraternity, My co-workers are Jewish, and the industry I'm in is predominantly Jewish. I am part of 3 interfaith group and I hold talks at local Mosques in my area on Israel's right to exist and trhe commonalities between Islam and Judiasm.
If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.

I give you a lot of credit for that. I have participated in interfaith dialogue groups in the past and I found them sort of bizzare for anyone who is not over age 70 or younger than 14. Sitting around quetly and listening respectfully as people tell stories about how they have been marganalized by each other, followed up by examples of how much we have in common seems like such an unnatural thing for Jews and Arabs to do. I have two very close Palestinian friends. We keep a lot of our thoughts on the conflict to ourselves because we know exactly how each other thinks at this point and then on occassion we just let it out. We do not see eye-to-eye on the conflict almost at all, but eventually after enough screaming and yelling, we get around to talking about the personal problems in our lives that we can deal with and we help each other deal with those. But I suppose when contact is minimal, you have to start someplace. But the style of those groups are sometimes artifically polite and superficial and that is just not the way we our People are.

[Reffo]

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc... This chicken and egg argument has already been discussed repetitively on this forum. So, the only thing I will reiterate is that the occupation is the RESULT of terrorism and war by the Arabs. Just think about it, in 1948 there was NO OCCUPATION but a war was started by the Arabs and the Palestinians against Israel, the rest is history.

Please be honest about how we got to this point. Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromise.
The fence is fine, as long as it doesn't disrupt the lives of thousands of Palestinians. I applaude the actions and decisions of the court in this matter, although I think more can be done. If you want peace and security, then try not to defacate on the Palestinians too much.I agree that BOTH sides need to compromise and I think Barak gave this a good try. So you tell me how was he rewarded ? Arafat told him to "Go to the Hell" (quote) and the Intiffada was started. OK, so you might say that we have to start again and I would agree with you but unless BOTH sides try harder to KEEP JUST TALKING until a solution is found, instead of using violence and terrorism as a tool, the new attempt will fail as well.

If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.Yes, we all need to do that.

[KettleWhistle]

If you step back outside your vehement beliefs, I think you'll find that you'll be at the same place I'm at.

If you want to talk about vehement and hateful beliefs, perhaps you ought to review a few of your posts. You accused majority of the members of this forum of hating Arabs, of being racists, of desiring genocide, of hating Muslims, and elsewhere you stated that you wouldn't be suprised at Israelis feeling that way. Aside from being completely ignorant, your views of us are outright insulting.

[Reffo]

Listen, I'm an American Muslim, but I also happen to be part of a majority of mine who agree that Israel does indeed have a right to exist, and exist peacefully and securely. But I also agree that to get there, Israel, the obviously more powerful of the 2 sides has to make a show of compromiseThat's great but unfortunately many others don't seem to share your common sense and good intentions, as an example just look at this thread Click Here. So, you can see that in order to make peace and compromise BOTH parties must be willing to do so. You cannot make peace and you cannot compromise until you have a partner for peace and compromise.

[Mediocrates]

The Palestinians tend to forget half of the name of the security fence. They have a dubious claim to the fence part at best and ignore totally the security aspect of it. I tend to not bother with people who knowingly ignore that half in order to push their own agenda. Through some process, call it magic, they would have you believe they understand what living behind the 'fence' is. I would suggest they experience the getting blown up part too.

[AbedS]

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...
To the disappointment of many, it is not like that. I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.
Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.
Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again. It is their goal that the israeli flag stand for something other than the talit. They want the star to be Israel eretz, and the stripes to signify the Nile and the Euphrates. You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats. These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation. These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.
These are the same people who continue to this very day to derail any hope of peace in the Middle east.
I can be honest and say that Islam and Arabs have a way to go still before they resolve their issues, and we're working on it. But please don't tell me that it is all one sided. Remember, the media will only tell you the side that best fits our ally's interests. Check out Amnesty international for a list of atrocities committed in Israel's name by fanatics and the government.

[Ariksan]

Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land

How comes? Do we get the east bank of Israel back? Jordan alone counts of more than 60% of "Palestine".

[AbedS]

How comes? Do we get the east bank of Israel back? Jordan alone counts of more than 60% of "Palestine".
huh? Is this some kind of riddle? Please xplain, unless I'm just really tired.

[Reffo]

Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...The terrorists are doing it because they want to FORCE what they want on everyone. They want to DICTATE the outcome. They DON'T WANT TO COMPROMISE. AbedS, the fact that you are trying to make excuses for them makes me think that despite what you said you too condone their methods. Understand this, Israel will never stop doing the things that you criticise so long as your terrorists will not stop their murders and especially, it will keep on building the fence in order to stop your terrorists. They may not end up with full success in stopping the terrorists but fighting the terrorists is preferrable to giving in to them because that means the destruction of Israel.

Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, You better explain how you calculated this 7% because that certainly does not sound right to me..Oh and Jerusalem was certainly NOT off the table because Barak did offer an arrangement to share the city. You better go back and re-read your history book. This is what CNN said about it in September 6, 2000:

"Before the collapse of the Camp David talks in July, Barak was seen as willing to make major concessions to the Palestinians, including some form of autonomy for Palestinian-controlled areas of Jerusalem. But Arafat has insisted on full Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, including holy sites in the old quarter of the city -- a position which the Clinton administration has made no secret it sees as inflexible."

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/09/06/us.mideast/index.html

[Reffo]

By the way AbedS, you seem to have skipped over this:

This chicken and egg argument has already been discussed repetitively on this forum. So, the only thing I will reiterate is that the occupation is the RESULT of terrorism and war by the Arabs. Just think about it, in 1948 there was NO OCCUPATION but a war was started by the Arabs and the Palestinians against Israel, the rest is history.Any thoughts on this ? OK, I think you will give me the stock standard answer that it's not relevant...it's history.....it was too long ago.

But I say to you that it is relevant because it shows everyone what this conflict is really all about and that is that the Arabs always wanted Israel destroyed and they still have not given up on this. Despite this, you claim that Israel should just forget about it, forget about the ongoing terrorism that is going on to this day and should "like good boys" allow the establishment of a Palestinian state unconditionally even though the terrorism is not stopped by them. Do you know what will really happen if they allow that ? No ? Well I will tell you: The Palestinians will convince themselves that they FORCED the Israelis to surrender and that the Israelis are weak and that it is possible to defeat them, so they will continue the war. Again you will say, so what ? Israel is stronger and can defeat them. But you are ignoring the damage that they would inflict before they are defeated. Just look at the death and havoc that they were able to inflict even from their current disadvantaged situation, so it is not hard to imagine what they could do if they could get hold of heavy weapons and planes once they become independent. I suspect that they will make September 11 look like a sunday school picnic before the Israelis will manage to stop them.

[Mediocrates]

How comes? Do we get the east bank of Israel back? Jordan alone counts of more than 60% of "Palestine".


They were offered 75% of the Mandate. They sat down in the dirt and banged their bowls until they got 87%. Figuring that the remaining 13% was probably not unattainable they got off their haunches to wage Jihad and got their heads handed to them at which time they sat back down in the dust and continue to bang their bowls to this day. Now even accounting for what will perhaps be a 5-8% adjustment of the West Bank you'll see that the Arabs wind up, for their 4 failed wars, innumerable smaller wars, endless terrorism, and riding at the front of a movement of world wide racism, antisemitism and genocial rage against Jews not seen since WW2, for all of that they wind up with approximately 83% of the total Mandate. Not too shabby and it' a deal they should take because the window of opportunity is closing. The world operates in cycles and the faceless technocrats of the PLO today have none of the Rive Gauche charm of mass murderer Arafat. If they don't manage to plunge themselves into civil war in the next 3 years the world will disengage from the Palestinian 'problem' which will finally be seen to be a monster of their own creation.

[Mira]

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...
To the disappointment of many, it is not like that. I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.
Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.
Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again. It is their goal that the israeli flag stand for something other than the talit. They want the star to be Israel eretz, and the stripes to signify the Nile and the Euphrates. You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats. These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation. These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.
These are the same people who continue to this very day to derail any hope of peace in the Middle east.
I can be honest and say that Islam and Arabs have a way to go still before they resolve their issues, and we're working on it. But please don't tell me that it is all one sided. Remember, the media will only tell you the side that best fits our ally's interests. Check out Amnesty international for a list of atrocities committed in Israel's name by fanatics and the government.

Abed,

You are completely full of it! There are so many lies in this last statement of yours that it is hard to take you seriously. You should go back to the yahoo message boards and post your hate where the ignorant are welcome. You aren't fooling anybody anymore.

[KettleWhistle]

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Specific examples please.

[scattergood]

abdes:

Too many responses to deal with each one in kind, so I'll stick to the main points.
To whoever said that there is no one on this board condoning genocide of the islamic Ummah, I have been on this board for only 2 days and I have encountered many instaces of it. I think the person who disputed that was a senior member, and if so, then I think you're thoughts are moot when you can't see the obvious.
Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...
To the disappointment of many, it is not like that. I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.
Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.
Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again. It is their goal that the israeli flag stand for something other than the talit. They want the star to be Israel eretz, and the stripes to signify the Nile and the Euphrates. You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats. These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation. These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.
These are the same people who continue to this very day to derail any hope of peace in the Middle east.
I can be honest and say that Islam and Arabs have a way to go still before they resolve their issues, and we're working on it. But please don't tell me that it is all one sided. Remember, the media will only tell you the side that best fits our ally's interests. Check out Amnesty international for a list of atrocities committed in Israel's name by fanatics and the government.

I don't know what everybody else on this board thinks about suicide bombers, but I'll tell you specifically what I think:

I think that for 40 years or more, the media, schools, parents, newspapers, popular music, government and every other information outlet that children are exposed to spew a message of hate. Arabs are taught that Jews and Israel are the cause of every one of their problems. The world is against the House of Islam, they are told, the House of War is here to kill you. The Jews are here to kill you, they will dishonor you, they will rape your women, take your land, and humiliate you. Children are taught that Islam is the only defense to the attack of Jews and Israel. From the time you are able to speak, you are told that the Jews destroyed your home, your parents home, and are the cause of all subjugation, poverty, humiliation and every ill thing that has happened to you.

Then into this incendiary society, an Israeli soldier looks at your sister, or makes you wait in a check point, or just seems stronger and bigger than you. You feel humiliated, doubly so because you are told that Islam is the true saviour of the world and everybody who isn't Muslim wants to kill you. And you are 19, filled with these messages of hate and intolerance, hormones racing through your body, affecting how you think. And along comes this guy, who really hates Israel, wants the land wants to kill the Jews and he says, "I can take care of your parents with money, money they don't have because of the Jews, and you can reach Paradise, you want to reach Paradise don't you. You've heard about it all your life. All you have to do is blow yourself up in the bus station or bar. Kill the Jews, they are the cause of your problems, they are the root of all evil. You will be serving Allah if you do it, you will honor your parents, you will bring honor to your self" It's like a spark to a tub of gasoline.

I don't think everybody wants to kill themselves, that everybody wants to do evil. But in a population of 3M, just 0.01% is 300 people a year. 1/100th of 1 percent is all that is needed for nearly 1 suicide bomber a day to try wreck any peace process.

I ask you, why hasn't any suicide bombers been the children of government officials? Or the government officials themselves? Don't they really believe in it?

[Luke90]

Specific examples please.
There have been people on this board expressing wishes that all Muslims should be killed.
For example, CanDo (on the Tsunami thread) said he wished that there had been a larger Tsunami which killed only Muslims.

You are completely full of it! There are so many lies in this last statement of yours that it is hard to take you seriously. You should go back to the yahoo message boards and post your hate where the ignorant are welcome. You aren't fooling anybody anymore.
Please don't start trying to get rid of him already.
You may think his opinion is hugely biased and misguided but if you aren't here to debate with people what are you here for?

[KettleWhistle]

There have been people on this board expressing wishes that all Muslims should be killed.
For example, CanDo (on the Tsunami thread) said he wished that there had been a larger Tsunami which killed only Muslims.

First of all, as ridiculous as that post was, he did not advocate genocide, nor did he imply that Muslims are inferior to others. Additionally, there were several responses that addressed and condemed his posts and that line of thinking.

That said, do you really agree with AbdeS' accusations that many members here advocate genocide, racism, or promote the ideas of Muslims being inferior, or that such is present in this thread, or others that he/she addressed?

[Mediocrates]

It always amazes me the people who are in love with debateful chatter for its own sake. Maybe it's boredom.

[Mira]

It always amazes me the people who are in love with debateful chatter for its own sake. Maybe it's boredom.

took the words right out of my mouth...

[Leon]

Let's talk about terrorism. Unfortunately, it is the belief of many people that the terrorists are hanging around, smoking the hookah and drinking coffee, and suddenly, one of them stands up and says "ok guys, I'm gonna go blow myself up now". Everyone says their goodbyes and for no apparent reason, the maniac goes into the most crowded area he can get into and BOOM, over, dead civilians, etc...

See Palestinian media, daily mosque sermons and schools & ARab media/society at large -- where the "protocols of the elders of Zion" and "mein kampf" are number one smash hits.


So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.

Can you ask with a straight face why people from East timor, Tibet, Aceh, Sudan and other places (where people are far, far more oppressed-- and there is no comparison to the type of suffering they endure to the type palestinians endure) dont blow themselves up?


Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again.

Yes, day in and day out they preach that "Muslims are the sons of pigs and monkeys" who deserve to be thrown into the sea.


You want to bash some fanatics, clean house first. [QUOTE]They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs".

Yep kinda like this -

http://www.hamasonline.com/Gallery/gallery_big/000862.jpg

those "fanatical Jewish settlers" are starting to resemble the KKK in their flashy white hoods.

[Luke90]

First of all, as ridiculous as that post was, he did not advocate genocide, nor did he imply that Muslims are inferior to others. Additionally, there were several responses that addressed and condemed his posts and that line of thinking.
Firstly, there definitely was a clear implication that Arabs are inferior to others:
Arabs prefer killing others to helping others.
When CanDo complained that there hadn't been much help when America was hit by hurricanes Northlander pointed out that there weren't anywhere near 70,000 people killed. CanDo's reply was:
Do you count Moslems as people?

His first comment about killing Moslems was:
I do feel bad for the innocent victims of the tsunami, especially those from America, Israel and our other allies. I hope that the next tsunami is more selective and only targets moslems.

Followed by:
As long as the moslem and Arab worlds celebrate and/or fund the deaths of Jews like the Hatuels, I will celebrate the deaths of moslems.

Reading through the entirety of the next few pages there were only two people who really condemened what he said (and carried on repeating).


That said, do you really agree with AbdeS' accusations that many members here advocate genocide, racism, or promote the ideas of Muslims being inferior, or that such is present in this thread, or others that he/she addressed?
CanDo is the only one I've seen openly wish death indiscriminately on all muslims. However, suggestions that Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians are generally inferior aren't unknown.

[KettleWhistle]

CanDo is the only one I've seen openly wish death indiscriminately on all muslims.
Wishing death and advocating genocide are two different things. And as you acknoledged, he is the only one.
However, suggestions that Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians are generally inferior aren't unknown.
Aren't unknown, but they are not representative of the forum. It's like to say that the roughly 5,000 members of KKK are representative of the 293 millions of Americans.

[Mediocrates]

I remember once three young men tried to run me over with their car. When that failed they got out chased me down on foot and proceeded to hit me with a bike chain. Seems I didn't get the memo. Ah well. In either case I really didn't have the time or inclination to remind them that I didn't hate their class, race, ethnicity, only them. Pity too since shortly afterwards two of them drowned under mysterious circumstances and I never got the chance to remind them of that polite distinction. So here is message. People should send their complaints on a piece of paper. I'll be sure to write my apology, wrap a rock in it and send it back. And Please, if you don't know how to swim don't go near the water.

[eastbank2]

Hi Womble,

Sure it does.

Have you ever heard of "Building a Fence around Torah"? It means that you do even extra things to protect the holiness of the mitzvot. There is also a joke about it: Why do we build a fence around Torah? To make a SAFER TORAH !!!! (The people have to understand some Hebrew to get the pun)
The word SAFER in Hebrew means 'Book' or 'Book of' and the word SAFER in English is known by everybody here who reads English.

You are talking about building a fence for security.

What is really needed for the building of a fence for our security is an aliyah enmasse from these millions of diaspora Jews to settle all the Land of Israel with populations that no Israeli government would dare expell, or even have the slightest thought of expelling for political expediency.

Mass aliyah is truly building our security fence around our claim to our God given Land.


how are you any different from a muslim using the quran to defend "arabs god given right to palestine"?

[SteveK]

how are you any different from a muslim using the quran to defend "arabs god given right to palestine"?

eastbank2,

Here is a great book for you to read with answers to your questions:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

[AbedS]

So I may make a few things clear.
1- I am a Muslim, I'm also an Arab, and beyond that, I'm an American. For me , those 3 things are equal, none above the other. I chose to take for myself the most exemplary ideals of all 3 identites and make them mine.

2- I weep (yes, weep) when I see suicide bombings in Israel. Dead Palestinians evoke the same response.

3- I was attacked for being a Muslim, no other reason. I was jumped for being who I am by 3 guys, blindsided if you will, and if you saw me on the street you would never know what background I am.

4- Certain people who think that one group of people is inferior to any other single themselves out as less than the average man or woman, whatever their religious beliefs.

That being said, let's follow this path wherever it leads. I can acknowledge mistakes by Muslims and Arabs, but I will not sit idly by while my beliefs are bashed by people whose only motivation is eggrandizement of their own ideology through the attacks on someone else's. If you want to stand out and make yourself great, then do it through your own actions, not through the inaction and misdeeds of others.

I AM working hard to change my world through understanding and offering a more attractive alternative. Can the same be said of some of you?

[AbedS]

eastbank2,

Here is a great book for you to read with answers to your questions:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

I'm familiar with the book, although I admit I never read it. just a question, though. using the typical Jewish arguments for rights to the land in Israel, can't the same arguments be used for Native Americans? After all, their spirituality also grants them ownership of the land. Is it because their faith is considered backwards that no one takes up their cause?

[rhodescholar]

This post is silly and contradicts itself:

As much as we'd all like to think so, the ICJ really isn't an unbiased authority. There is never a 100% unbiased judiciary anywhere, period.

The court refused to hear the israeli side at all. Thats soviet-style court-room procedures. No wonder noone with a brain gave this court ruling any value.

Please forget about your unwavering support for Israel for a second and look at it from a morilty point of view. Try to emulate Socrates.
Regardless of the legal status of the Palestinian areas, the pragmatic approach is that it is THEIR land, regardless.

Says who? You? If israel had any brains after winning in 67 they would have done what EVERY OTHER nation on this planet has ever done in a defensive war they won- expelled the enemies. Why they didnt do that in 67 i cant fathom, and i wondered a great deal at the time what on earth they were thinking.

The pal arabs supported the panarab war against israel wholeheartedly, a fact you cannot deny if the truth is important. As such, they forfeited any rights to this land, as they became enemy supporters and belligerents.

The UN resolution declares israel needs to return some territories, not all of them. The authors of this resolution have declared this is so many times.

In the end, there are only 2 solutions to this whole mess. 1 is the eradication of every single Muslims man woman, and child in the world, over 1 billion fo them, because genocide against the Palestinians would result in a fight to the death by every Muslim on the planet to save their brethren, .....Israel has a modern army, what do they have?

You say all 1 billion muslims would come to their aid, then ask what do the pals have? I guess you just answered that question yourself, correct? The 400 million plus + hostile neighboring arabs, and another 600 million non-arab muslims.

All trying to destroy a tiny jewish state, how pathetic.

Let me ask you something mr enlightened. What civilization or people have the arab muslims NOT tried to conquer or destroy over the past 1,500 years that lives in the middle east?

Its time the arabs learned that there are other people with rights to be left alone and not live under their control.

[rhodescholar]

Now we get back to the chicken and the egg argument. The fence wouldn't exist if it were not for terrorism, terrorism in Israel wouldn't exist were it not for the Israeli occupation, etc...
Please be honest about how we got to this point. .

I read posts like this and spend more time deciding whether to bother responding, or just saying the person is so devoid of knowledge of the conflict that its pointless.

For your statement to be true, that would mean that the terrorism by pal arabs began (or increased sharply) in 1967, or at some point after the 67 war.

Unfortunately, you are completely WRONG.

What you need to do asap is get your a** into a library and look up the NY Times, Reuters, and AP articles on what the arabs were doing from 1948 through 1967. My dear friend, there were more individual acts of terrorism perpetratred by the arabs then there was AFTER 1967.

Do you understand my point now?

The occupation is imply the latest in a long line of excuses by your fellow arab muslims. I have lived through all of them over the past 60+ years, and frankly, they dont mean much to me. It all comes down to a simple fact, the arab muslims simply will not tolerate another group rising to control its own destiny in the middle east. Once you understand that point, everything else is just garbage.

[rhodescholar]

Yet another silly post:

I know some of you believe that perhaps Islam doesn't value human life, but that is wrong. In fact, terrorism is sinful in Islam. So why would someone blow themselves up? While I and hundreds of MILLIONS of Muslims around the globe condemn it, it is really not too hard to understand. If you can say with a straight face that Palestinian attacks are unprovoked, then you should not be on this board, you should be working for the Bush administration or be at the Poker championships.

So then you absolutely need to explain why only muslims commit suicide bombings when oppressed.

Tibetans, maronite christians, chinese, cubans, columbians etc etc do NOT commit suicide bombings - or even strike back in some instances with violence at all - yet it seems that the arab muslim has some unique privileged ultra-high "victim" status above all others whereby they can suicide bomb children.

Do you get it? Other than muslims, no one else who is oppressed uses these tactics in political disputes. Tell me why is that?

Barak: The deal was that Palestinians would get less than 7% of the original land, Jerusalem was off the table, they would have no control of their water supply, their airspace belonged to Israel, and security would be handled by both parties, with Israel having final say, of course. You tell me what self respecting JEW would accept such paltry terms.

Can you not read?

This is utter BS. Clinton said, and was supported afterwards by other aides at the meetings, that Arafat's refusal to budge on the right of return is what ended the camp david/taba talks. Period.

As for air rights, these were to be phased in over a 5 year period iirc. You absolutely need to research more before posting garbage like this.

Finally, the Settlers and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. If you think these people at all feel that palestinians should even be allowed to live, think again.

More stupidity. Who cares what they say/want? If they had such powerful political control, israel would not be leaving gaza in a few months.

And amazing how noone is giving israel one iota of credit for doing this. Its the same arab muslim cr^p, give us more, more, more.



They parade through Palestinian towns with a full military escort chanting "Die Arab Dogs". these are the same people that bombed the King David hotel and killed British Citizens and diplomats.

Holy smoke, next we will hear about the US Liberty. Any more conspiracy theories to send our way?

These are the same people that stole nuclear material from the US, even though we were the first nation to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation.

If you say this again, i will put you on ignore, since you clearly are not reading posts that correct you, which indicates you might be the moderators posing/takeo with new ID, etc.

France built israel's reactor in the early 1960s. France built the reactor. Should i say it again?

These are the people who pushed Israel to invade Lebanon not because of Hizaballah, but because of control of the Litani river which originates in the Lebanese mountains and also supplies Israel downstream.

You are completely ignorant. Israel entered lebanon to stop daily PLO shelling/terror attacks on its northern towns. Can you buy a fact for a change?

[golani]

[QUOTE=AbedS]So I may make a few things clear.
1- I am a Muslim, I'm also an Arab, and beyond that, I'm an American. For me , those 3 things are equal, none above the other. I chose to take for myself the most exemplary ideals of all 3 identites and make them mine.



Congrats,we had guessed it

2- I weep (yes, weep) when I see suicide bombings in Israel. Dead Palestinians evoke the same response.



Reassuring,you are still a human being




3- I was attacked for being a Muslim, no other reason. I was jumped for being who I am by 3 guys, blindsided if you will, and if you saw me on the street you would never know what background I am.




Welcome to the club,in Belgium and France, it happens everyday to Jews



4- Certain people who think that one group of people is inferior to any other single themselves out as less than the average man or woman, whatever their religious beliefs.




Yes ,see the "holy Kuran"
-christians and jews are inferior to muslims
-Men are superior to women
-Master is superior to slave
In particular,5th surath(from medina) is particularily apalling


That being said, let's follow this path wherever it leads. I can acknowledge mistakes by Muslims and Arabs, but I will not sit idly by while my beliefs are bashed by people whose only motivation is eggrandizement of their own ideology through the attacks on someone else's. If you want to stand out and make yourself great, then do it through your own actions, not through the inaction and misdeeds of others.

I AM working hard to change my world through understanding and offering a more attractive alternative. Can the same be said of some of you?



Yes ,become atheist,christian,sikh ,follower of zarahustra and stop following a death cult

(Personal quote,I can befriend a bad muslim,I will keep away from a good one)

[SteveK]

I'm familiar with the book, although I admit I never read it. just a question, though. using the typical Jewish arguments for rights to the land in Israel, can't the same arguments be used for Native Americans? After all, their spirituality also grants them ownership of the land. Is it because their faith is considered backwards that no one takes up their cause?

Hi AbedS,

It is very worthwhile for you and eastbank2 to read the book:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

Rabbi Kramer also discusses in one of the chapters: "The Claim of Ishmael".
As to the often repeated comparison to the American Indians, this is not the book to find the development of such a thesis.

For the Jews, it's not sufficient that we just quote from the Torah about our ownership for the Land of Israel from our God given everlasting inheritance.
We must actually claim the Land of Israel as a united sovereign Jewish nation, and as united we must bring the Living God of Israel to defend our claim.

We Jews are neither the united sovereign nation, nor united to bring God to defend our claim.

Though, Rabbi Kramer's book puts Jewish thinking here in Israel and in the diaspora on the right track toward such unification, no book can replace the national Torah leadership so desperately needed.

Do you or eastbank2 know from where such true Shepherds of Israel will emerge?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Here is a great book for you to read with answers to your questions:

THIS LAND IS MY LAND
(Rebbe Nachman: History, Conflict, And Hope In The Land of Israel)

By Rabbi Chaim Kramer
Breslov Research Institute
Jerusalem

website: www.breslov.org

If you could give a brief summary or thesis of the book and how it would answer y questions it would help greatly. Currently I have 'Arab and a Jew' on my reading list, which looks much more interesting. Your website looked like religious preaching. If the extra 45 minutes given to the religious folk 'to pray' before every meal, while the rest of the machlaka is forced to clean the bathrooms, was not enough to convince me to return to the torah, i dont know if rabbi kramer will be able to.

[SteveK]

If you could give a brief summary or thesis of the book and how it would answer y questions it would help greatly. Currently I have 'Arab and a Jew' on my reading list, which looks much more interesting. Your website looked like religious preaching. If the extra 45 minutes given to the religious folk 'to pray' before every meal, while the rest of the machlaka is forced to clean the bathrooms, was not enough to convince me to return to the torah, i dont know if rabbi kramer will be able to.

eastbank2,

Read the book.

What do you mean by "to convince me to return to Torah"?

Are you shopping around now for a new identity?

[eastbank2]

Welcome to the club,in Belgium and France, it happens everyday to Jews)
Muslims are also the victims of extreme right violence in these countries


4- Certain people who think that one group of people is inferior to any other single themselves out as less than the average man or woman, whatever their religious beliefs.




Yes ,see the "holy Kuran"
-christians and jews are inferior to muslims
-Men are superior to women
-Master is superior to slave
In particular,5th surath(from medina) is particularily apalling)

-the bible did not have a chance to express any inferiority in the christian or islamic religions. But considering you consider islam a 'death cult', it is at least existent in some of its followers.
-is there such great equality between man and women with in the orthodox jewish community?
-slaves were existent in the bible as well


That being said, let's follow this path wherever it leads. I can acknowledge mistakes by Muslims and Arabs, but I will not sit idly by while my beliefs are bashed by people whose only motivation is eggrandizement of their own ideology through the attacks on someone else's. If you want to stand out and make yourself great, then do it through your own actions, not through the inaction and misdeeds of others.

I AM working hard to change my world through understanding and offering a more attractive alternative. Can the same be said of some of you?



Yes ,become atheist,christian,sikh ,follower of zarahustra and stop following a death cult

(Personal quote,I can befriend a bad muslim,I will keep away from a good one)

I know many good israeli arab muslims. And they are good friends.

[SteveK]

I know many good israeli arab muslims. And they are good friends.

eastbank2,

Though to whom do you identify?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Read the book.

What do you mean by "to convince me to return to Torah"?

Are you shopping around now for a new identity?

What new identity? I identify with israelis. I am not religious nor are 80% of israelis, nor were the founders of the state. . I do not believe in religious scripture. The phrase 'return to the torah' can be exchanged to 'lachzor b'tshovah'.

It is not so easy to 'read the book' in tiranoot.

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Though to whom do you identify?

the nationality of the hebrew people, and that is what it says in my taodat zehoot. Does that prevent me from being friends with israeli arabs?

[SteveK]

What new identity? I identify with israelis. I am not religious nor are 80% of israelis, nor were the founders of the state. . I do not believe in religious scripture. The phrase 'return to the torah' can be exchanged to 'lachzor b'tshovah'.

It is not so easy to 'read the book' in tiranoot.


eastbank2,

So, wait for the national Torah leadership to emerge here in Israel as I am.
But, has your identity crisis got something to do with your affinity to Arab culture?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

So, wait for the national Torah leadership to emerge here in Israel as I am.
But, has your identity crisis got something to do with your affinity to Arab culture?

where do i have an identity crisis?
I have no affinity to arabs, I have an affinity to people who are nice and helpful to me. Since I am a student of the arabic language, I found that many arabs were quite helpful, and friendly. I found that contrary to what i learned on israelforum, all arabs are not ticking time bombs awaiting the destruction of the jewish people.

[eastbank2]

[QUOTE=SteveK]eastbank2,

So, wait for the national Torah leadership to emerge here in Israel as I am.
QUOTE]


I am a member of shinui. in other words I am doing everything possible to prevent that.

[SteveK]

where do i have an identity crisis?
I have no affinity to arabs, I have an affinity to people who are nice and helpful to me. Since I am a student of the arabic language, I found that many arabs were quite helpful, and friendly. I found that contrary to what i learned on israelforum, all arabs are not ticking time bombs awaiting the destruction of the jewish people.


eastbank2,

Is that why you have no affinity to Torah observant Jews because they are not nice and not helpful to you, and would not advance your career path in some application of the Arabic language?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

Is that why you have no affinity to Torah observant Jews because they are not nice and not helpful to you, and would not advance your career path in some application of the Arabic language?

who said i have no affinity to ttorah observant jews? I just have not had much contact to them. That perhaps might change in the next 3 years.

[SteveK]

who said i have no affinity to ttorah observant jews? I just have not had much contact to them. That perhaps might change in the next 3 years.



How will that change in the next 3 years?

[eastbank2]

How will that change in the next 3 years?

kravi units tend to be more religious than jobniks proportionally.

[SteveK]

kravi units tend to be more religious than jobniks proportionally.

eastbank2,

What do you want to be when you grow up?

[eastbank2]

eastbank2,

What do you want to be when you grow up?

international lawyer

[SteveK]

international lawyer

And, how then will you help the Jewish People grow up and mature into being a united sovereign nation here in Israel?

[eastbank2]

And, how then will you help the Jewish People grow up and mature into being a united sovereign nation here in Israel?

the jewish people are already a sovereign nation. Being in a voluntary unit in the IDF, I think I am helping maintain this status.

[SteveK]

the jewish people are already a sovereign nation. Being in a voluntary unit in the IDF, I think I am helping maintain this status.


Millions of diaspora Jews remaining tells me that we are not yet a united sovereign nation.

[eastbank2]

Millions of diaspora Jews remaining tells me that we are not yet a united sovereign nation.


There are millions of chinese people that live 'in diaspora' outside of china. Does this mean china is not a united sovereign nation?
Also, if it werent for the millions of diaspora jews voting in america, there would be billions less dollars in Israel.

[SteveK]

There are millions of chinese people that live 'in diaspora' outside of china. Does this mean china is not a sovereign nation?
Also, if it werent for the millions of diaspora jews voting in america, there would be billions less dollars in Israel.


Millions of those Chinese people living 'in diaspora' like America don't teach the Chinese living in China to be better Chinese in America than they can be in China. American Jews teach Israelis that they can be even better Jews in America than in Israel.

How many billions of dollars do you think that the American Jews could bring with them on aliyah for investment in building the Jewish Homeland, if they liquidated all their communities' assets now being invested in making the four walls of their Jewish identity in suburban America?

[eastbank2]

Millions of those Chinese people living 'in diaspora' like America don't teach the Chinese living in China to be better Chinese in America than they can be in China. American Jews teach Israelis that they can be even better Jews in America than in Israel.

How many billions of dollars do you think that the American Jews could bring with them on aliyah for investment in building the Jewish Homeland, if they liquidated all their communities' assets now being invested in making the four walls of their Jewish identity in suburban America?


American jews teach israelis that they could be better jews in America???? How is this?

'Millions of chinese living in america dont teach the chinese living in china to be better chinese in america'? I dont know how you came up with these statements. but I would wager that proportionally chinese americans are much more likely to invite fellow chinese to live the american dream, than american jews-- who if anything advocate aliya.

Im sure american jews could bring much in investment, but Im sure it would not equal the yearly support which the US government continues to give.

[SteveK]

American jews teach israelis that they could be better jews in America???? How is this?

'Millions of chinese living in america dont teach the chinese living in china to be better chinese in america'? I dont know how you came up with these statements. but I would wager that proportionally chinese americans are much more likely to invite fellow chinese to live the american dream, than american jews-- who if anything advocate aliya.

Im sure american jews could bring much in investment, but Im sure it would not equal the yearly support which the US government continues to give.

I see that you are very far away from Jewish religious movements. Religious movements are source of Jewish identity in America from cradle to grave.
It's the Jewish religious movements which are divisive to the unity of the Jewish People as one sovereign nation. The four walls of a Jerusalem synagogue and yeshiva are the same four walls of a Brooklyn synagogue and yeshiva.

Are you that proud of the American Jews transplanting the Jewish heritage to Christian homelands? Does your Shinui party get a lot of donations from diaspora Jews? Why should we stop in getting such financial help from the American Christians,- let's ask them to send their kids to staff our army, and then you won't have to worry about your tiranoot.

[eastbank2]

I see that you are very far away from Jewish religious movements. Religious movements are source of Jewish identity in America from cradle to grave.
It's the Jewish religious movements which are divisive to the unity of the Jewish People as one sovereign nation. The four walls of a Jerusalem synagogue and yeshiva are the same four walls of a Brooklyn synagogue and yeshiva.

Are you that proud of the American Jews transplanting the Jewish heritage to Christian homelands? Does your Shinui party get a lot of donations from diaspora Jews? Why should we stop in getting such financial help from the American Christians,- let's ask them to send their kids to staff our army, and then you won't have to worry about your tiranoot.


You say that religious movements are the source of jewish identity. I think zionism is, and I dont consider zionism a religious movement.

I didnt quite understand the second paragraph. But Ill answer as best as possible. 1. i dont see how american jews transplanted the jewish heritage to christian lands. 2. I dont know the source of shinui donations 3. The financial help i was talking about comes from diaspora jews. And why would christian americans serve in the israeli army?

[SteveK]

You say that religious movements are the source of jewish identity. I think zionism is, and I dont consider zionism a religious movement.

I didnt quite understand the second paragraph. But Ill answer as best as possible. 1. i dont see how american jews transplanted the jewish heritage to christian lands. 2. I dont know the source of shinui donations 3. The financial help i was talking about comes from diaspora jews. And why would christian americans serve in the israeli army?


No, eastbank2, Zionism is not the source of Jewish identity. Jewish identity was long established before the Zionist movement. Zionism is the movement for Jewish identity to again realize its connection to Israel through the sovereign Jewish Homeland. Yes, Zionism is not a religious movement.

When Jews can celebrate Passover in Brooklyn and tell the world in all seriousness about God taking the Jewish People out of Egyptian bondage and into their own land, and yet not make aliyah, that's one example of transplanting Jewish heritage to Christian Homelands, and even making the Living God of Israel into just a Passover storybook myth.

The American Jews have problems raising enough money for their own self-aggrandizing organizations, and they use Israel as the banner for their own fundraising. The national budget of Israel depends on these diaspora Jews? The money for expelling Jews from their land here depends on a budget allowance by these American Jews? And, are you really under such an illusion that any U.S. investment here is only because of the Jewish lobby? And, if Jews like you can fight for another Arab state to be created, while tearing apart the Land of Israel, then why shouldn't American Christian kids come over here and fight for the Jewish homeland? Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and even our people. So, why shouldn't America throw a few of their kids into the fire here, like we keep throwing ours, in a "peace process", to help America appease its oil suppliers?

[eastbank2]

No, eastbank2, Zionism is not the source of Jewish identity. Jewish identity was long established before the Zionist movement. Zionism is the movement for Jewish identity to again realize its connection to Israel through the sovereign Jewish Homeland. Yes, Zionism is not a religious movement.

When Jews can celebrate Passover in Brooklyn and tell the world in all seriousness about God taking the Jewish People out of Egyptian bondage and into their own land, and yet not make aliyah, that's one example of transplanting Jewish heritage to Christian Homelands, and even making the Living God of Israel into just a Passover storybook myth.

The American Jews have problems raising enough money for their own self-aggrandizing organizations, and they use Israel as the banner for their own fundraising. The national budget of Israel depends on these diaspora Jews? The money for expelling Jews from their land here depends on a budget allowance by these American Jews? And, are you really under such an illusion that any U.S. investment here is only because of the Jewish lobby? And, if Jews like you can fight for another Arab state to be created, while tearing apart the Land of Israel, then why shouldn't American Christian kids come over here and fight for the Jewish homeland? Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and even our people. So, why shouldn't America throw a few of their kids into the fire here, like we keep throwing ours, in a "peace process", to help America appease its oil suppliers?


Obviously the jewish identity was long present before zionism. The jewish identity was present during the first israel, obviously there was no need for izionism then. Zionism of this century is hebrew nationalism. Considering that the majority of jews today are not religious, yet still identify with the jewish nationality shows what the true source of the hebrew nationality is.
Secondly the money for expelling jews from their lands is only a fraction of the total american aid. In any case I am all for leaving the gaza jews put, just dont come crying when the gazian jews dont have tzahal spending millions of americas dollars each year to protect them. See how fast they will stay if it is not israeli soldiers knocking on their doors, but khan nunis residents. Expelling the jews is for the betterment of the israeli state, just like expelling arabs was for the betterment of the state 55 years ago.

As far as the last paragraph, american jews are not the only reason for such great american aid to Israel, the fundamental christians are a signifcant factor. But are you under such the illusion that with no jewish votes in america, the aid to Israel would remain the same?

"And, if Jews like you can fight for another Arab state to be created, while tearing apart the Land of Israel, then why shouldn't American Christian kids come over here and fight for the Jewish homeland?"
'The land of israel' argument... Remind me to start settling in the country of jordan to prevent 'eretz yisrael from being torn apart.
In any case, I dont see how the Israeli government supporting a state of palestine, means that the Israeli army is 'fighting for an arab state'.

"Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and even our people." please quote me taking this position.

[AbedS]

Replying to a miasma of your previous posts, rhodescholar.

I never argued that terrorism increased sharply as a result of 1967. A fact, though, is that after 1948, until present, over 4 million pals have been displaced. Argue that number all you want, I frankly don't care, because it is obvious to me that you are rooted to your position in cement shoes. Here's a question for you, though. Assuming that there was never a Palestine, that the land was barely inhabited, etc, how can there be millions of refugees? Since the main sources for this information are the UN, Universities, and research groups, it must obviously be wrong, and slanted to make Israel look bad.

[SteveK]

"Afterall, you take the position that Israel should invest in the diplomatic relationship between America and its Arab "friends" by sacrificing our own heritage and e