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View Full Version : pullout referendum law proposal will be rejected



sharonbn
03-28-2005, 01:50 AM
Settlers concede defeat
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3064324,00.html

Yesha Council leaders ask Knesset Constitution Committee chairman to withdraw pullout referendum proposal after Likud “rebels” fail to elicit Shas support in meeting with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Monday.

KettleWhistle
03-28-2005, 11:36 AM
This is a truly a shame when political maneuvering is interferring with democracy.

Mediocrates
03-28-2005, 12:09 PM
No one saw that coming, did they? So how does this 'problem' with 3500 more blocs in Ma'aleh Adumim play to this? Moving Gazans there? I understand the stated plan of not freezing anything until after Gaza but why would anyone take Sharon at his word at this point? It would require an expensive annexation to Jerusalem to make this new 'settlement' viable and if it's not then Israel can just as easy whisk it away.

Static
03-29-2005, 07:52 AM
Settlers concede defeat
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3064324,00.html

Yesha Council leaders ask Knesset Constitution Committee chairman to withdraw pullout referendum proposal after Likud “rebels” fail to elicit Shas support in meeting with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Monday.

This is extremely good news.

NewsGuy
03-29-2005, 08:18 AM
This is extremely good news.

Uh huh. There's no telling what might happen if the citizens would get to vote in a democracy...

sharonbn
03-29-2005, 08:32 AM
Uh huh. There's no telling what might happen if the citizens would get to vote in a democracy...
Yes, that is true, NewsGuy. I believe that one of the reasons for Sharon consistent refusal to allow the referendum is his fear that maybe the disengagement plan will be rejected.

However, that is true for many gov't decisions. If we took gov't decision to raise taxes to a referendum, we can guess the outcome. If we took gov't decision to invade Lebanon to a referendum, the outcome is uncertain.

The point I'm making is that gov'ts sometime need to take unpopular decisions, because they calculate that in the long run, the decision will bare fruits.

In democracy the people get the elect their leader. That does not mean that the leader must always seek to win the popularity contest.

However, I do believe that the disengagement plan contradicts the platform that Sharon offered to his voters in 2003 elections. I'm not sure, but maybe we need to go to elections to decide the faet of the disengagement plan ?

Static
03-29-2005, 08:53 AM
Sharon's disengagement plan and settlements

52% of the Israelis support and 44% oppose a referendum on Sharon's disengagement plan.

If a referendum on Sharon's disengagement plan were held today, 65% of the Israeli public would support it, compared to 29% who would oppose it. 49% among Israelis support the participation of Israeli Arabs in such a referendum, compared to 48% who oppose it.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1110943126439

Even if a referendum were held, Sharon's disengagement plan would still have the support of the majority of Israeli's. But, in an alternate reality where this could possibly not be the case, I wouldn't support a referendum because without Sharon's disengagement plan, there would be absolutely NO chance for the bloodshed to end.

Sealing the door for peace shut is not a decision I believe they common people should be able to make, democracy or not.

Mediocrates
03-29-2005, 08:55 AM
Well let's not be so dull to imagine that if you were on the other side of the issue you wouldn't be clamoring for another shot at defeating it. Principals are one thing, politics are another. The question I have is why is the Israeli system so ramshackle that something this momentus doesn't seem to have any procedural rules attached to it. I suspect that if you had a nonpolitical supreme court all of this would wind up there as well and it would swirl around to no one's satisfaction.

I think the smart money is on Sharon getting tossed out in the fall and Labor will swoop in to take all of the credit w/o ever having to make any of the hard decisions. The real issue at that point will be if there is any political restraint to prevent bankrupting the country.

NewsGuy
03-29-2005, 09:15 AM
Yes, that is true, NewsGuy. I believe that one of the reasons for Sharon consistent refusal to allow the referendum is his fear that maybe the disengagement plan will be rejected.

However, that is true for many gov't decisions. If we took gov't decision to raise taxes to a referendum, we can guess the outcome. If we took gov't decision to invade Lebanon to a referendum, the outcome is uncertain.

The point I'm making is that gov'ts sometime need to take unpopular decisions, because they calculate that in the long run, the decision will bare fruits.

In democracy the people get the elect their leader. That does not mean that the leader must always seek to win the popularity contest.

However, I do believe that the disengagement plan contradicts the platform that Sharon offered to his voters in 2003 elections. I'm not sure, but maybe we need to go to elections to decide the faet of the disengagement plan ?

This is all true.

And, yes, new elections are probably necessary so that the government will reflect the will of the people in this particular case.

And at the same time, I think that the voters should be presented with a referendum on evacuating Jews from Gaza settlements, as well as evacuating
Palestinians from settlements in Israel as an equal confidence-building measure.

So, instead of a unilateral ethnic cleansing, maybe there should be a bilateral population exchange. For example, Israel evacuates 4 settlements in Gaza, and the Palestinians evacuate their own settlements in places like Haifa, East Jerusalem, Yaffo, etc.

I wonder how such a referendum would turn out.

sharonbn
03-29-2005, 09:24 AM
This is all true.

And, yes, new elections are probably necessary so that the government will reflect the will of the people in this particular case.

And at the same time, I think that the voters should be presented with a referendum on evacuating Jews from Gaza settlements, as well as evacuating
Palestinians from settlements in Israel as an equal confidence-building measure.

So, instead of a unilateral ethnic cleansing, maybe there should be a bilateral population exchange. For example, Israel evacuates 4 settlements in Gaza, and the Palestinians evacuate their own settlements in places like Haifa, East Jerusalem, Yaffo, etc.

I wonder how such a referendum would turn out.
If the voters were not presented with a referendum on settling Jews in Gaza, then there need not be a referendum on the pull out.

I do not believe it is practical to evcuate the Arabs from Haifa, Jaffo, etc. However, I would give back Um El Fahem and Baqua El Sharqia (in exchange for Gush Etzion and Maale Edomim, for example) without sheding any tears...

Yehuda
03-30-2005, 03:55 AM
I would give back Um El Fahem and Baqua El Sharqia (in exchange for Gush Etzion and Maale Edomim, for example) without sheding any tears...That is because you don't live there. I guess you would probably feel quite differently about it if you were a resident.

sharonbn
03-30-2005, 04:08 AM
That is because you don't live there. I guess you would probably feel quite differently about it if you were a resident.
I don't know how they would feel. and so do you.

I can imagine if I was an Arab I would want to live in an Arab country, with an Arab leader and Arab laws, instead of in a Jewish country, with a Jewish hymn, Jewish flag, Jewish gov't, Jewish laws .......
This is what self-determination means. This is what French Jews feel when they make Aliyah, don't they? seems natural to me .....

PS
Welcome to the forum, Yehuda :)

Yehuda
03-30-2005, 04:19 AM
Well, I happen to live in the Gush, so I can honestly say that it hurts me to see another jew saying such a thing. After all the elected government gave and still gives incentives for people living there.

I can imagine if I was an Arab I would want to live in an Arab country, with an Arab leader and Arab laws, instead of in a Jewish country, with a Jewish hymn, Jewish flag, Jewish gov't, Jewish laws .......Here is the escence of the problem...no unity amongst us. You prefer so spend yuor time worrying about what the Arabs want and what they feel while convinently choosing not to do the same for your own kind.

I don't mean to insult or to come across rude. But I am an Oleh Chadash, have been inIsrael for under 3 years. I can honestly say that I am shocked by this attitude and way of thinking I encounterd here. There is more unity and support in Chutz L'aretz...this is truly sad.

I suggest that before you make your conclusions of giving the areas you mentioned, that you go there, spend some time and meet the people. We must have compassion for our brothers and sisters. Why sympathise with our enemies and neglect our people?

sharonbn
03-30-2005, 04:57 AM
Maybe you didn't understand what I have said.

Um El Fahem and Baqa el-Gharbiya are Israeli towns. I said would give them to Palestine in exchange for Gush Etzion and Maale Edomim annexed to Israel.

Yehuda
03-30-2005, 05:03 AM
Maybe you didn't understand what I have said.

Um El Fahem and Baqa el-Gharbiya are Israeli towns. I said would give them to Palestine in exchange for Gush Etzion and Maale Edomim annexed to Israel.Well....if that was the case it went totally over my head and I apologize!!

Yehuda
03-30-2005, 07:41 AM
But it still seems to me like you are putting the needs of our enemies before our own... I say this because of this:
Originally Posted by sharonbn
I can imagine if I was an Arab I would want to live in an Arab country, with an Arab leader and Arab laws, instead of in a Jewish country, with a Jewish hymn, Jewish flag, Jewish gov't, Jewish laws .......

Ophra
03-30-2005, 07:51 AM
But it still seems to me like you are putting the needs of our enemies before our own... I say this because of this:
Originally Posted by sharonbn
I can imagine if I was an Arab I would want to live in an Arab country, with an Arab leader and Arab laws, instead of in a Jewish country, with a Jewish hymn, Jewish flag, Jewish gov't, Jewish laws .......

Israeli Arabs are not our enemy . I think you are misunderstanding what sharonbn is saying .

Static
03-30-2005, 07:55 AM
But it still seems to me like you are putting the needs of our enemies before our own... I say this because of this:


The Palestinians "our enemy?"

Mediocrates
03-30-2005, 08:06 AM
Not a big fan of ballot propositions. It gives the politicos too many opportunities to shrug off their responsibilities. Throw it over the wall to the 'electorate'. Not they are inherently more stupid than the people they elect but because if it's really to be handled that way then we really don't government for much of anything. As you can see, I loathe the Libertarians on this point.

In either case the whole dust up over the referendum that wasn't and never would be, had more to do with the fragility of Israeli electoral politics as a whole. If they had voting wards and a little more Federalism in lieu of this anarchic Parliamentary shouting match the issue would have more easily resolved itself. Of course it works both ways and you could just as easily find yourself on the other side of an issue with few immediate recourses but them's the breaks and next time vote the rascals out of office! It's much better to do things this way as opposed to running around trying to run a new national ballot initiative every few months. If the Knesset members felt confident that most of their constituencies were opposed to it then they should have just refused to hear the issue raised at all. All this chattering show and tell is a frightful waste of time.

Yehuda
03-30-2005, 08:07 AM
The Palestinians "our enemy?"
Well, isn't it the Palestinians who blow up buses and Coffee shops?
In my book that makes them enemies.
No matter which way you look at it, one thing will forever stay true - If the Arabs put down their weapons there will be no more killing, however, if Israel put down her weapons, there would be no more Israel.

Mediocrates
03-30-2005, 08:10 AM
Maybe they could work it like a custody arrangement in a divorce. The Jews get Israel every other week and the Palestinians get the other two weeks. Summer vacations are split. We declare Jerusalem an international amusement park. If either party get remarried to another spouse more than 10 years their junior then a prenup is mandatory and the kids get to decide who to live with.

Yehuda
03-30-2005, 08:12 AM
Maybe they could work it like a custody arrangement in a divorce. The Jews get Israel every other week and the Palestinians get the other two weeks. Summer vacations are split. We declare Jerusalem an international amusement park. If either party get remarried to another spouse more than 10 years their junior then a prenup is mandatory and the kids get to decide who to live with.
hehe...I like this idea.. :D

NewsGuy
03-30-2005, 05:06 PM
If the voters were not presented with a referendum on settling Jews in Gaza, then there need not be a referendum on the pull out.

I do not believe it is practical to evcuate the Arabs from Haifa, Jaffo, etc. However, I would give back Um El Fahem and Baqua El Sharqia (in exchange for Gush Etzion and Maale Edomim, for example) without sheding any tears...

The voters did not need a referendum to build the suburbs, because building more suburbs is consistent with the elected officials' election platforms.

The reason there is a need for a referendum now is that an ethnic cleansing of Jews was not in Sharon's election platform, so he does not have a mandate from the voters for his actions.

I understand, though, that there will be no referendum as a practical matter, because Sharon and his Leftist allies know very well that too much democracy can get in the way of tyranny.

Yehuda
04-02-2005, 03:02 PM
The voters did not need a referendum to build the suburbs, because building more suburbs is consistent with the elected officials' election platforms.

The reason there is a need for a referendum now is that an ethnic cleansing of Jews was not in Sharon's election platform, so he does not have a mandate from the voters for his actions.

I understand, though, that there will be no referendum as a practical matter, because Sharon and his Leftist allies know very well that too much democracy can get in the way of tyranny.
You hit the nail right on..