Remember Baruch Goldstein ..

[Ophra]

Early on the morning of Purim 1994, when the Israel Defense Forces were busy making their final preparations for withdrawing from Gaza and Jericho under the Oslo Accords, Baruch Goldstein decided to do something to shuffle the deck and stop the withdrawal: He fired into a crowd of Muslim worshipers in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, killing 29 Palestinians.

In his testimony in court, Yigal Amir said that the idea of killing the prime minister first entered his head when he attended Goldstein's funeral and saw Goldstein's hundreds of admirers. At the time, the government declined to listen to then-attorney general Michael Ben-Yair's recommendation that it immediately evacuate all the settlers from Hebron, thereby demonstrating uncompromising determination.

Since then, the extremist camp has grown, and today, its members number in the thousands. It is currently girding up its loins to stop the disengagement - and once again, we are witnessing intensive violent activity whose goal is to fan the flames of hatred between Arabs and Jews. Now, as then, preparations for the disengagement are being accompanied by daily pogroms in Arab communities, destruction of property, harassment of soldiers, physical assaults on Palestinians, cutting down trees, beating and throwing stones at passersby, threatening nighttime patrols through Arab villages and even shooting with intent to kill. When such things happen under the guise of Purim celebrations, they are accompanied by a phrase that recalls the Goldstein affair: "The rioters were drunk." :rolleyes:

It is inconceivable that no lessons have been learned - that the army and police are once again waiting for a commission of inquiry to describe after the fact what could have been prevented in advance. The job of the IDF, which is responsible for security in the territories, is not to describe the violence and warn against it, but to prevent it. The Purim rampage by Yitzhar residents was not exceptional; it followed seven other incidents that had been extensively reported in the media during the previous week.

Had it not been for the presence of human rights activists in the area, it is doubtful that the public would even know about what happened. These activists brought about the arrest of Avri Ran of Itamar; they are also the ones who reported the poisoning of livestock in the South Hebron Hills. The settlers, for their part, attacked the soldiers and policemen who came to arrest them and ultimately succeeded in chasing them off.

While the army debates the correct way to treat the settlers, and settler spokesmen exploit feelings of pity to cry about collective delegitimization, the next massacre is brewing almost openly. The principal lesson that should have been learned from Baruch Goldstein - who, like Yigal Amir, was no "wild weed," but rather someone who acted with the support and encouragement of many - is that there is no place for understanding and tolerance on this issue: The rioters belong in jail.

This is even truer when it is clear to everyone that the rioters are attempting to ignite a fire as the evacuation of settlements approaches. This is almost the last possible moment for action by IDF officers in the territories, who last week reported feelings of helplessness in their ranks. One can assume that stronger political backing would produce results. But attempts to ingratiate themselves with the right, and statements such as that of Major General Yair Naveh about the need to embrace the settlers, will lead to disaster.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/557468.html

[Mediocrates]

Maybe you could kill two birds with one stone. Build a wall around the settlements and make them prisons under Palestinian control. Would that be appealing to you? Oh wait, never mind, that was a direct question.

[Womble]

I take it Haaretz website had another update, right Ophra? ;)

[Mediocrates]

I think this thread is an attempt to poison the board. Send any random toddler over to salt it with threads with names like this and wait for all the radicals to descend on it screaming like a pack of hyenas.

[Canajew]

I think this thread is an attempt to poison the board. Send any random toddler over to salt it with threads with names like this and wait for all the radicals to descend on it screaming like a pack of hyenas.

but this is a serious issue, no, regardless of how well it plays. There is a very small but significant minority of Israelis, settlers or otherwise, who have sort of applied the Palestinian Prestige system to Goldstein, basing the honour he "deserves" on the number of (innocent) civilians he killed.

There is something very not right about all of that, and if I am not mistaken we have people on this board who have supported him at one time or another. Isn't that far, far worse than starting a thread on goldstein and the impact of his actions on Israeli society?

[Canajew]

and there do seem to be daily pogroms against the Arab communities of the west bank eminating from various groups of lawless settler youth, with the seeming guidance and support of settler community leaders. Something needs to be done about them too, and quick.

[KettleWhistle]

I think it is far far worse to demonize all settlers based on the actions of a few. And flooding the forum with various bigoted op-eds is just a matter of bad taste.

[tandem]

we can consider another option and that's transferring the paleos to jordan. almost 80% of the population in jordan are palestinian arabs. they don't need another state just because abdullah doesn't want them. they can live in jordan and nobody will bother them.

[Canajew]

we can consider another option and that's transferring the paleos to jordan. almost 80% of the population in jordan are palestinian arabs. they don't need another state just because abdullah doesn't want them. they can live in jordan and nobody will bother them.

don't call Palestinians "paleos". bad form, and simply not acceptable language.

It very much does matter that they don't want to go and Jordan doesn't want them. for a bunch of reasons, some moral, others strictly geo-political.

Other ideas?

[Canajew]

I think it is far far worse to demonize all settlers based on the actions of a few. And flooding the forum with various bigoted op-eds is just a matter of bad taste.
see, I disagree. the settlers are proving themselves to be a huge lawless racist violent problem, arn't they?

[KettleWhistle]

"The" settlers? All 400,000 of them? Please check your facts.

[Canajew]

"The" settlers? All 400,000 of them? Please check your facts.

of course not 400,000, and I apologize for the sweeping generalization. But there is certainly a significant subset of religious jews who seem to be primarily youth and young adult who seem to have been taught by their leaders about their inherent superiority and their alegiance to the dictats of leadership and of ties to land over ties to government and authority, and who seem to have absolutely zero problem with harrassing or assaulting Arabs tending their own fields and comming to work in settlments.

Combine the supremacist attitudes and the penchance for violence and disrespect for the government, and you have a very dangerous group of people. And the settlment leadership, at least the leadership within those settlments that created these youth and their attitudes, WANTED this the whole time just like Arafat WANTED to create a generation of sick twisted depraved suicide bombers.

I don't discuss this sort of thing on other forums. Used by anti-Israelers to make us all look bad. But we would be fools to ignore it completely amongst ourselves.

This is a very serious issue, and while those who glory in the assassination of Rabin might not get it, others among us certainly do.

[KettleWhistle]

of course not 400,000, and I apologize for the sweeping generalization.
Such generalization is quite a problem.


But there is certainly a significant subset of religious jews who seem to be primarily youth and young adult who seem to have been taught by their leaders about their inherent superiority and their alegiance to the dictats of leadership and of ties to land over ties to government and authority, and who seem to have absolutely zero problem with harrassing or assaulting Arabs tending their own fields and comming to work in settlments.

These people are not a significant subset of anything. First of all, most of the settlers are secular. And even our of religious people, these a minority. There are few thousands of them at most.

Other than that, I don't know why anyone has to respect the government. Especially the government that uses people as political pawns. The government of Israel IS guilty of that. And the reciprocal reaction to Arab terrorism is understandable. Maybe not justifiable, but certainly understandable. And was not a problem some 15 years ago either.

Overall, such demonizations put many issues out of context, and hense distort reality. There is nothing racist about settler's attitudes or this conflict. It is not about race, of which we and Arabs are the same, but about land. And there is nothing wrong with having an attachment to that land. We are that land's native sons. It has always been Jewish dream to return there.

[NewsGuy]

The principal lesson that should have been learned from Baruch Goldstein - who, like Yigal Amir, was no "wild weed," but rather someone who acted with the support and encouragement of many - is that there is no place for understanding and tolerance on this issue: The rioters belong in jail.

What a silly article. No wonder the author is too ashamed to byline it.

Goldstein is a man who snapped as a result of repeatedly witnessing the horrors inflicted by Palestinian terrorists upon innocent Jewish women and children. He lost his mind and himself became no better than the terrorists he reviled.

But there is no widespread support for him. It is a tiny, lunatic fringe, which doesn't even add up a half a percent of Israei society.

And to compare Israelis who are in danger of being ethnically cleansed from their land solely based on their religion and nationality -- to Baruch Goldstein -- is a cynical and evil attempt to demonize the settlers.

[Sumud]

Goldstein is a man who snapped as a result of repeatedly witnessing the horrors inflicted by Palestinian terrorists upon innocent Jewish women and children. He lost his mind and himself became no better than the terrorists he reviled.

But there is no widespread support for him. It is a tiny, lunatic fringe, which doesn't even add up a half a percent of Israei society.

And to compare Israelis who are in danger of being ethnically cleansed from their land solely based on their religion and nationality -- to Baruch Goldstein -- is a cynical and evil attempt to demonize the settlers.

His funeral was very well attended and there was much public support voiced for his actions. Condemnation was closer to the exception rather than the norm (according to my recollection).

I don't think that you can charactise the "lunatic fringe" as tiny. If we're talking about the messianic 'Land of Israel' crew, then I would have thought it compromised something like 10% of the Israeli population.

Ophra probably has a better handle on this.
So, Ophra do you have any estimates of the current size of the "lunatic" group?

[danholo]

don't call Palestinians "paleos". bad form, and simply not acceptable language.

Not to mention he wants the Palestinians to go into the sea in his signature: "Palestinim leyam" in Hebrew.

[Mediocrates]

His funeral was very well attended and there was much public support voiced for his actions. Condemnation was closer to the exception rather than the norm (according to my recollection).

I don't think that you can charactise the "lunatic fringe" as tiny. If we're talking about the messianic 'Land of Israel' crew, then I would have thought it compromised something like 10% of the Israeli population.

Ophra probably has a better handle on this.
So, Ophra do you have any estimates of the current size of the "lunatic" group?


So what? Lot's of people attended the funeral of Nathan Bedford Forrest too. Lots of people attended the funeral of Malcolm X. Lots of people attended the funeral of Yassir Arafat. That is representative of exactly nothing. Was there something else you wanted to throw around? No?

[NewsGuy]

His funeral was very well attended and there was much public support voiced for his actions. Condemnation was closer to the exception rather than the norm (according to my recollection).

What do you mean by "well attended?" What percentage of Israeli society does that represent?

As for your recollection, I'm sure that it involves the prevailing Arab terrorism supporters' viewpoint -- not reality.

[Womble]

His funeral was very well attended
By the whole of the remaining Kach members worldwide. I wouldn't call it any representative.



and there was much public support voiced for his actions. Condemnation was closer to the exception rather than the norm (according to my recollection).
Your recollection? Remind me which part of Israel you lived it at the time.



I don't think that you can charactise the "lunatic fringe" as tiny. If we're talking about the messianic 'Land of Israel' crew, then I would have thought it compromised something like 10% of the Israeli population.
Are you kidding me? 10%? As in over 600 000? If that was so, Kach would be one of the biggest parties in the Knesset- while in reality they are outlawed and even the saner wing of extreme right has about 6 mandates total.

[Mediocrates]

I think a 100000 people attended Yassir Arafat's funeral and he had the blood of thousands of Jews and Palestinians on his hands plus countless Lebanese and Jordanians killed in wars he started there plus scores of Europeans murdered in the 1970's during the golden age of terrorism plus the Munich athletes plus diplomats around the world plus a few Irish who were murdered at the hands of the PLO trained IRA.

And does anyone doubt that if the Palestinians are ever handed Jerusalem he won't be reinterred on the dome of the rock and become a man-god in death second in importance to political Islam only to Mohammed himself? Wow some beauty contest.

[tandem]

Not to mention he wants the Palestinians to go into the sea in his signature: "Palestinim leyam" in Hebrew.
and your point is..

do you actually understand hebrew or do you have a couple of yahad junkies helping you out?

[Canajew]

and your point is..

do you actually understand hebrew or do you have a couple of yahad junkies helping you out?

I think the point is that this is not really an acceptable position at all.

You should change your tag.

[Ophra]

Rabbi who cursed Rabin targets Sharon

Yosef Dayan, who enacted a pulsa denura – Aramaic for "lashes of fire" – death curse against Yitzhak Rabin shortly before his assassination, has received a green light from kabbalistic rabbis to place the same curse on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in the next few days.

"This is the next step and it needs to be prepared," Dayan told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday. "We need to do this since [Sharon] and the system he runs are not stopping."

Dayan, who said he had met with several senior rabbis recently seeking permission to place the curse, met Tuesday with Yehoshua Ben-Shushan – a Jerusalem kabbalist and a leader of an early-'80s plot to blow up the Dome of the Rock.

Other far-right activists associated with Dayan said they had heard he had gotten a go-ahead to proceed with the curse, which is based on passages from the Zohar, kabbala's major work.

Dayan said in September that he would be willing to cast the curse, but only after receiving authorization from senior kabbalistic rabbis. While Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz decided at the time not to investigate Dayan for criminal offenses, Justice Ministry officials told the Post on Tuesday that they might need to revisit the issue.

"If he [simply] wishes something inside his soul, we cannot necessarily do anything [to stop him]," a Justice Ministry official said. "If the curse is instigated, however, we will need to check the circumstances to see if it was done in public and if people are willing to act upon the curse."

In October, Dayan led a group of activists who reenacted a First Temple-era water libation ritual at the Shiloah Spring in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan, with the goal of removing Sharon from power and instituting a Jewish monarchy. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Right-wing activists said Tuesday the curse would not give them the right to assassinate Sharon but was rather a "prayer for divine intervention."

"How it happens isn't of interest," one said. "For all we care, he can die of a heart attack."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1112066449011

[Mediocrates]

They're YOUR crazies, you deal with them. I wonder though if they were just run of the mill crazies like ideological Big-C Communists if you would just brush it off like crazy talk. hmmmm?

[danholo]

and your point is..

Canajew understood it quite well.


do you actually understand hebrew

Not much. I've been able to read since I was 7 years old though.


or do you have a couple of yahad junkies helping you out?

Sorry, no. You won't be able to label me here.

[Canajew]

Canajew understood it quite well.



Not much. I've been able to read since I was 7 years old though.



Sorry, no. You won't be able to label me here.

hey Dan,

good to see you still around. I'm sure you've noticed a certain ... extremism creeping into the consensus position on the board.

Nice to see you're still on the up and up.

too bad we can't make the board like it used to be.

[danholo]

hey Dan,

good to see you still around. I'm sure you've noticed a certain ... extremism creeping into the consensus position on the board.

I think we're all extremists in our own way. On some positions I have become more extreme as well, however I'm a realist or at least try to be one. Let's just say that I'm overtly pessimistic about the situation in Israel. But I understand what you mean.


too bad we can't make the board like it used to be.

At least we have the likes of takeo to balance it out...

[sharonbn]

we can consider another option and that's transferring the paleos to jordan. almost 80% of the population in jordan are palestinian arabs. they don't need another state just because abdullah doesn't want them. they can live in jordan and nobody will bother them.

You can update your sig, tandem, according to your proposal:
פלסטינאים לים!, ואלה שיצופו, שילכו לירדן

[Leon]

Rabbi who cursed Rabin targets Sharon

Why be so worried? After all you dont believe in G-d (let alone fear Him) or the Torah or in the Holiness of G-d's land.

The curse after all...is just an expression of mere words?? no? What have u got to fear? And an expression of mere words...even a curse is all part and parcel of living in a democratic and open society. No?

[sharonbn]

Why be so worried? After all you dont believe in G-d (let alone fear Him) or the Torah or in the Holiness of G-d's land.

The curse after all...is just an expression of mere words?? no? What have u got to fear? And an expression of mere words...even a curse is all part and parcel of living in a democratic and open society. No?

1) its not mere words. The 'curse' allowes for the murder of a Jew by another Jew (normally, a Jew is forbidden to kill another Jew by Torah law.)

2) Its not Ophra that concerns Ophra, its the people who follow the orders and commands of Rabbis. One of them was called Yigal Amir. Without Pulsa Denura, Amir (by his own admition) would not kill Rabin.

[Leon]

1) its not mere words. The 'curse' allowes for the murder of a Jew by another Jew (normally, a Jew is forbidden to kill another Jew by Torah law.)

"Right-wing activists said Tuesday the curse would not give them the right to assassinate Sharon but was rather a "prayer for divine intervention."

Sharon has a policy - he gets cursed by a disgruntled bunch of people...all part in parcel of a democracy-- happens in every healthy liberal society.

And if you are going to quote the Torah - it is also forbidden to give away G-d's Holy land (which is not for sale)...how much more so than to an uncompromising enemy who wishes to destroy the Jewish people. It is also forbidden to place the Jewish people in danger (Oslo was one) and play with the lives and souls of the Jewish people (as happened in Oslo when Arafat was brought back and fully armed by the Israeli government and is happening now.) That my friend (giving away parts of G-d's land and placing Jewish lives in danger) is the gravest sin according to Torah. If ure gonna quote the Torah, dont pick and chose what and what not to quote in or out of context. If on the other hand, you dont believe in the Torah and its validity than dont quote the Torah at all.





2) Its not Ophra that concerns Ophra, its the people who follow the orders and commands of Rabbis. One of them was called Yigal Amir. Without Pulsa Denura, Amir (by his own admition) would not kill Rabin.

Or the orders and commands of the likes of Gurion and Rabin -- the Atelina was one. Bringing back Arafat to life and arming him was another. There are plenty of crazies on the left...more so than the right. At least the right - whatever faults they have (and they have plenty) dont activley engage or help, aid or abait a murderous and unrepentent enemy.

[Mira]

hey Dan,

good to see you still around. I'm sure you've noticed a certain ... extremism creeping into the consensus position on the board.

Nice to see you're still on the up and up.

too bad we can't make the board like it used to be.

I don't know if you count my posts in the category of "extreme" positions that have crept into the board. I'm pretty disillusioned these days, Canajew. The government used the settlers. They encouraged many of them to move there and build communities so that they would have bargaining chips to trade for peace. They lured poor people with the promise of cheap housing and religious people with the promise of a "Greater Israel" knowing fully well that if and when it was time to bring these people back, secular Israelis wouldn't have as much of a problem uprooting them because they are, afterall, religious wackos. They placed these people on the front lines to create facts on the ground like pawns with the idea that the Arabs just needed to win something; that eventually they would settle for the territory they lost in 1967 minus a few areas needed for security and Jerusalem. But they were wrong and they know it now. The government was very predatory in how they went about all of this. And they, along with the media, continue to be predatory. The terrorists still maintain a lot of power in the territories (do you even know what is going on in the territories because very few people are talking about it) and the government continues to approve settlement construction around Jerusalem. So tell me that Sharon is convinced that there is a peace partner on the other side and that the Road Map is the plan to get us there, because I'm not convinced that he believes it. I think that the government is under extreme pressure from the world governments, the left and most of world Jewry (who are focused on the Arab demographic threat to the Jewish character of Israel) to give the appearance that they are on board with the Road Map. And once again I see the settlers being used cynically to obfuscate the problems in the peace process and stall for more time....kind of like what Arafat used to do with the Palestinian "fanatics." Hey Everybody...it's those damn settlers! No, it's those damn Arab terrorists! If only we could get rid of the fanatics on both sides, right?

[Ophra]

Why be so worried? After all you dont believe in G-d (let alone fear Him) or the Torah or in the Holiness of G-d's land.

The curse after all...is just an expression of mere words?? no? What have u got to fear? And an expression of mere words...even a curse is all part and parcel of living in a democratic and open society. No?

Leon,

Why does it bother you so much that I am an atheist ?? It doesn't bother me that you are religious .... it just bothers me when so called religious people like that Rabbi add to the incitement .

You ask what we have to fear .... we fear the breakdown of our society and a return to the atmosphere that prevailed before the assassination of Rabin .
It has already started ..... and the foul stench of the extremists is once again in the very air we breathe .

Thus :

Rabin monument vandalized
Hate slogans spray-painted on Tel Aviv monument built in memory of assassinated prime minister
By Avi Cohen

TEL AVIV – Hate slogans were spray-painted on the monument built in memory of former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, located at the site of his assassination in Tel Aviv.

The monument is located at the bottom of the stairs of the Tel Aviv city hall, next to the building's parking lot, and the cars parked there overnight were sprayed as well.

The word "death" was sprayed-painted on the Israeli flag next to the monument, which symbolically resembles the face of cracked soil.

Meanwhile, Tel Aviv police launched an investigation into the incident, merely a day after Jerusalem police launched a similar one.

On Sunday, visitors and workers at the Herzl Mount cemetery were horrified to discover hate slogans on the tombstone of the assassinated prime minister and his late wife Leah, who have both come to symbolize the struggle for peace.

Footage shot by surveillance cameras at the cemetery showed the suspect's face, Jerusalem police sources said.

According to charges made by the Peace Now movement, the cameras at Rabin's gravesite must have been out of order, as police have not yet said they have a picture of the latest incident's perpetrator.

"A country that does not know how to keep its leaders safe, cannot keep their graves safe," he said.

Labor faction Chairman Eitan Cabel, said: "the crazy hatred has not ceased for a moment. The crazy people who sprayed Leah and Yitzhak's graves remind us that the next murder might only be a matter of time only. The police and the Shin Bet must not let up, even for a minute, on this matter."

Cabel's reaction comes in the wake of other similar incidents reported in recent weeks.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3067933,00.html

[Mediocrates]

Again I'd ask, don't you clowns have some extra security guards you can hire to keep these kinds of things from happening? Haayzu Christo in a chicken basket <edited by moderator> you can't guard the burial site of your only assassinated PM? Maybe you should hire some surplus Palestinian police or something. I hear they'll work cheap. Honestly if you can't do this you can't be trusted with a whole country. Let the Pals have it.

[KettleWhistle]

Rabin monument vandalized
Hate slogans spray-painted on Tel Aviv monument built in memory of assassinated prime minister

Good job! Rabin's betrayal of Israel won't be forgotten or forgiven. Never and never again: http://img162.exs.cx/img162/8236/neveragain8wr.jpg

BTW, religion was not the reason the traitor was killed.

[Ophra]

Good job! Rabin's betrayal of Israel won't be forgotten or forgiven. Never and never again: http://img162.exs.cx/img162/8236/neveragain8wr.jpg

BTW, religion was not the reason the traitor was killed.

In the same vein KW .......

Rabin's assassination will never be forgotten or forgiven. Never and never again.

BTW, religion might not have been why he was so cruely murdered... but it was a cowardly orthodox Jew that shot him in the back .

[sharonbn]

Rabin's assassination will never be forgotten or forgiven. Never and never again.

I think its despicable that a Jew praises the murder of another Jew. You can call Rabin and the left wing traitors and you can say we're responsible for killing of Jews by PLO, I know we stab the nation in the back, I know we aid the enemy blah blah blah....

But we never praise and joy over killing of Jews. We never dance of the blood of our political rivals.

Remember that Judea falled because of internal conflict.

[Mediocrates]

You've been kind of politically sheltered these last 60 years. Political leaders, even in the west, have been assassinated for all kinds of different reasons though clearly we in the west have more of an affinity for crazed lone gunmen with no reason than anyone with any political reason at all. Maybe in the end that's the oddest thing about Rabin's death is that it was for some self professed reason.

[sharonbn]

maybe we have.

I remember prior to Rabin's assassination, I was used to boast that "no political assassination took place in Israel" as a sign of Jewish union and superior moral safeguards and sensitivity.

not anymore....

[Mediocrates]

Welcome to adulthood. Now go guard your shrines and stop complaining.

[KettleWhistle]

Rabin's assassination will never be forgotten or forgiven. Never and never again.

I think its despicable that a Jew praises the murder of another Jew. You can call Rabin and the left wing traitors and you can say we're responsible for killing of Jews by PLO, I know we stab the nation in the back, I know we aid the enemy blah blah blah....

But we never praise and joy over killing of Jews. We never dance of the blood of our political rivals.

Remember that Judea falled because of internal conflict.

I remember very well why Judea fell. But you should look in the mirror when you try to blame it on right-wingers, because it is the left like Rabin, Chomsky, Woody Allen, Adam Shapiro, and others who cause the divisions. It was Rabin who betrayed Israel and collaborated with the enemy, and not the Israeli right. This got nothing to do with a Jew killing another Jew. That's just rhetoric.

Rabin was killed for his actions, not because of religion. He was killed for pushing the country into a stupid position against the will of more than 75% of the population. As far as I am concerned, Amir has done the only thing a concerned citizen can do when the appropriate authorities and legal safeguards fail. What else could anyone possibly do to stop Rabin from destroying Israel?

[Womble]

As far as I am concerned, Amir has done the only thing a concerned citizen can do when the appropriate authorities and legal safeguards fail. What else could anyone possibly do to stop Rabin from destroying Israel?
Vote him out, obviously.

Because of Rabin's assassination, the Likud came very close to losing the 1996 elections. The Labor kept playing the Rabin card over, and over, and over again, until they have all but delegitimized the very idea of the Right governing the state. Netanuahy's win was a matter of luck more than anything else, because it took a mere few tens of thousands to turn the balance. If Rabin's assassination did not provide the Left with such powerful political ammunition, Rabin would be easily voted out and consequently forced out of politics.

[sharonbn]

I remember very well why Judea fell. But you should look in the mirror when you try to blame it on right-wingers, because it is the left like Rabin, Chomsky, Woody Allen, Adam Shapiro, and others who cause the divisions. It was Rabin who betrayed Israel and collaborated with the enemy, and not the Israeli right. This got nothing to do with a Jew killing another Jew. That's just rhetoric.
Rabin betrayed Israel and collaborated with the enemy. Fine. Does that mean he deserved to die? Does that mean we should praise the murderer cheering "good job"? oh sure, just rhetoric. I bet this is what the Rabbis who issued Din Rodef on Rabin thought... its all just rethoric till someone loses an eye.


What else could anyone possibly do to stop Rabin from destroying Israel?
Vote him out, obviously. Sholdn't be hard if indeed 75% of the population was against him.

And what About our beloved current PM? isn't he an even bigger traitor than Rabin? doesn't he deserve to die because there's nothing else we can do to stop him from destroying Israel? Already the extreme right is "actively wishing his death" (to quote chief of Shabac) Maybe we can all hold our hands together and pray for his swift death and wish really really hard that someone will come do the good job?

[KettleWhistle]

Rabin betrayed Israel and collaborated with the enemy. Fine. Does that mean he deserved to die?
Yes, and no. He should've been tossed into jail, along with Peres and Beilin for conducting illegal secret negotiations with Arafat. But that didn't happen. He was becoming more and more tyrannically authoritarian. That's why there was no other way of getting rid of him.


Vote him out, obviously. Sholdn't be hard if indeed 75% of the population was against him. That didn't happen because of his political manipulations to usurp power.


And what About our beloved current PM? isn't he an even bigger traitor than Rabin? No. While it is disgusting and disturbing that he would suppress democracy by fighting the refferendum on the issue, he is also being pragmatic in dealing with the consequences of Rabin & Co.'s actions.

[sharonbn]

Yes, and no. He should've been tossed into jail, along with Peres and Beilin for conducting illegal secret negotiations with Arafat.
Well, by that standard you can toss Ben Gurion for conducting "illegal secret negotiations" with king Abduallah, Eshkol and Golda for conducting "illegal secret negotiations" with Hussein and last but not least, Bibi for conducting "illegal secret negotiations" with Syrian president Assad.

While we're on a roll, we can toss the majority of leadrship of mosy human societies throughout history for conducting "illegal secret negotiations" with the enemy.


That didn't happen because of his political manipulations to usurp power.
Thats is just nonsense. First of all, Rabin was murdered before the Oslo accord was put to the voters' test so how do you know that he couldn't be voted out??? what "didn't happen"???

Second, I don't understand what type of "political manipulations" can be considered sucessfull if they lead to 75% objection. if indeed 75% of the population was against him, he ould have been voted out. If he would have won the 96 elections, it means there were no 75% against him. So which is it???

Well, I guess we'll never know. Amir made sure of that. But still I don't understand what "didn't happen". and how come that with all the "political manipulations" the Labor lost the 96 elections???

[takeo]

Early on the morning of Purim 1994, when the Israel Defense Forces were busy making their final preparations for withdrawing from Gaza and Jericho under the Oslo Accords, Baruch Goldstein decided to do something to shuffle the deck and stop the withdrawal: He fired into a crowd of Muslim worshipers in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, killing 29 Palestinians.

In his testimony in court, Yigal Amir said that the idea of killing the prime minister first entered his head when he attended Goldstein's funeral and saw Goldstein's hundreds of admirers. At the time, the government declined to listen to then-attorney general Michael Ben-Yair's recommendation that it immediately evacuate all the settlers from Hebron, thereby demonstrating uncompromising determination.

Since then, the extremist camp has grown, and today, its members number in the thousands. It is currently girding up its loins to stop the disengagement - and once again, we are witnessing intensive violent activity whose goal is to fan the flames of hatred between Arabs and Jews. Now, as then, preparations for the disengagement are being accompanied by daily pogroms in Arab communities, destruction of property, harassment of soldiers, physical assaults on Palestinians, cutting down trees, beating and throwing stones at passersby, threatening nighttime patrols through Arab villages and even shooting with intent to kill. When such things happen under the guise of Purim celebrations, they are accompanied by a phrase that recalls the Goldstein affair: "The rioters were drunk." :rolleyes:

It is inconceivable that no lessons have been learned - that the army and police are once again waiting for a commission of inquiry to describe after the fact what could have been prevented in advance. The job of the IDF, which is responsible for security in the territories, is not to describe the violence and warn against it, but to prevent it. The Purim rampage by Yitzhar residents was not exceptional; it followed seven other incidents that had been extensively reported in the media during the previous week.

Had it not been for the presence of human rights activists in the area, it is doubtful that the public would even know about what happened. These activists brought about the arrest of Avri Ran of Itamar; they are also the ones who reported the poisoning of livestock in the South Hebron Hills. The settlers, for their part, attacked the soldiers and policemen who came to arrest them and ultimately succeeded in chasing them off.

While the army debates the correct way to treat the settlers, and settler spokesmen exploit feelings of pity to cry about collective delegitimization, the next massacre is brewing almost openly. The principal lesson that should have been learned from Baruch Goldstein - who, like Yigal Amir, was no "wild weed," but rather someone who acted with the support and encouragement of many - is that there is no place for understanding and tolerance on this issue: The rioters belong in jail.

This is even truer when it is clear to everyone that the rioters are attempting to ignite a fire as the evacuation of settlements approaches. This is almost the last possible moment for action by IDF officers in the territories, who last week reported feelings of helplessness in their ranks. One can assume that stronger political backing would produce results. But attempts to ingratiate themselves with the right, and statements such as that of Major General Yair Naveh about the need to embrace the settlers, will lead to disaster.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/557468.html

Let's not risk the life of Israeli soldiers to deal with these nuts, just withdraw and leave them where they are... only evacuate children, women and those willing to be evacuated.

[takeo]

but this is a serious issue, no, regardless of how well it plays. There is a very small but significant minority of Israelis, settlers or otherwise, who have sort of applied the Palestinian Prestige system to Goldstein, basing the honour he "deserves" on the number of (innocent) civilians he killed.

There is something very not right about all of that, and if I am not mistaken we have people on this board who have supported him at one time or another. Isn't that far, far worse than starting a thread on goldstein and the impact of his actions on Israeli society?

Exactly


I don't discuss this sort of thing on other forums. Used by anti-Israelers to make us all look bad. But we would be fools to ignore it completely amongst ourselves.

I don't agree, the more people all over the world know not all Israeli's are defending those settlers, the better it is for Israel's image in the world.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, by that standard you can toss Ben Gurion for conducting "illegal secret negotiations" with king Abduallah, Eshkol and Golda for conducting "illegal secret negotiations" with Hussein and last but not least, Bibi for conducting "illegal secret negotiations" with Syrian president Assad.
Ben Gurion should've been tossed into jail for the Altalena affair. But as far as the negotiations you listed, were those really illegal?


Thats is just nonsense. First of all, Rabin was murdered before the Oslo accord was put to the voters' test so how do you know that he couldn't be voted out??? what "didn't happen"???

That's nonsense. He was taken care of after Oslo happened. What voters' test are you talking about?


Second, I don't understand what type of "political manipulations" can be considered sucessfull if they lead to 75% objection. if indeed 75% of the population was against him, he ould have been voted out. If he would have won the 96 elections, it means there were no 75% against him. So which is it??? I don't know where you were in '93, but I was in Israel. I remember the opinion polls from back then. And what do you mean by him being voted out? By the MKs of whom he had hold by usurping the political power?

and how come that with all the "political manipulations" the Labor lost the 96 elections???I was talking about manipulations of the MKs. And since the bastard was dead already and Olso had been killing people, what difference did it make?

[KettleWhistle]

BTW, religion might not have been why he was so cruely murdered... but it was a cowardly orthodox Jew that shot him in the back .Cowardly? What exactly makes him "cowardly?" The fact that he didn't seat down for a chat with him before taking care of the <edited by moderator>? Or maybe he should've given a speach before doing away with Rabin?

[takeo]

I don't know if you count my posts in the category of "extreme" positions that have crept into the board. I'm pretty disillusioned these days, Canajew. The government used the settlers. They encouraged many of them to move there and build communities so that they would have bargaining chips to trade for peace. They lured poor people with the promise of cheap housing and religious people with the promise of a "Greater Israel" knowing fully well that if and when it was time to bring these people back, secular Israelis wouldn't have as much of a problem uprooting them because they are, afterall, religious wackos. They placed these people on the front lines to create facts on the ground like pawns with the idea that the Arabs just needed to win something; that eventually they would settle for the territory they lost in 1967 minus a few areas needed for security and Jerusalem. But they were wrong and they know it now. The government was very predatory in how they went about all of this. And they, along with the media, continue to be predatory. The terrorists still maintain a lot of power in the territories (do you even know what is going on in the territories because very few people are talking about it) and the government continues to approve settlement construction around Jerusalem. So tell me that Sharon is convinced that there is a peace partner on the other side and that the Road Map is the plan to get us there, because I'm not convinced that he believes it. I think that the government is under extreme pressure from the world governments, the left and most of world Jewry (who are focused on the Arab demographic threat to the Jewish character of Israel) to give the appearance that they are on board with the Road Map. And once again I see the settlers being used cynically to obfuscate the problems in the peace process and stall for more time....kind of like what Arafat used to do with the Palestinian "fanatics." Hey Everybody...it's those damn settlers! No, it's those damn Arab terrorists! If only we could get rid of the fanatics on both sides, right?

actually as you said the settlers are just an instrument of the Israeli government, who brought them there, protected them and paid them (both labour and Likud), as the PLO leadership indeed used hamas and other radicals for their own benefit and will dispose of them whenever it's the right moment. And as instruments they can dispose whenever their utility is outdated.

[takeo]

Cowardly? What exactly makes him "cowardly?" The fact that he didn't seat down for a chat with him before taking care of the son-of-a-bitch? Or maybe he should've given a speach before doing away with Rabin?

He was not a coward, he was a terrorist!

[KettleWhistle]

He was not a coward, he was a terrorist!
Wrong. He was a concerned citizen who took action to protect his country.

[takeo]

Wrong. He was a concerned citizen who took action to protect his country.

:rolleyes:

I bet you Hamas militants are saying exactly the same (well, their country and their God, perhaps).

[KettleWhistle]

I bet you Hamas militants are saying exactly the same (well, their country and their God, perhaps).Don't know and don't care. But you should know. After all, you are on their side.

[takeo]

Don't know and don't care. But you should know. After all, you are on their side.

I'm not, you are the only terrorist supporter here, there are more sides to support than Goldstein and the murderer of Rabin or Hamas...

[KettleWhistle]

I do not support terrorists. I support the double-wall approach: 1-wall the Arabs off, and 2-keep them away with Jabotinsky's iron wall. But your anti-Israeli anti-Semitism speaks for itself.

Regarding Baruch Goldstein, what exactly is your issue with him? He was a guy who snapped from seeing dear friends and family members being murdered by Arabs. Do you in the same vein blame the mentally retarded homeless people for being the way they are?

[sharonbn]

Ben Gurion should've been tossed into jail for the Altalena affair. But as far as the negotiations you listed, were those really illegal?
Same legality as the Oslo talks.


That's nonsense. He was taken care of after Oslo happened. What voters' test are you talking about?
He was "taken care of" (what a sick terminology) before the voters could say their say about Oslo accord. He won the 92 elections. in 93 he signed the Oslo accord. in 96, the voters could have say "we want you out." That's how it works in democracy that doesn't sponsor political assassinations.


I don't know where you were in '93, but I was in Israel. I remember the opinion polls from back then.
First of all, I said it a countless times: prime ministery is not a popularity contest. If you want to rule by opinion polls, then you would never be able to raise taxes.

Second, if the opionion pools were 75% against Rabin, I **STILL** don't understand what was so urgent that Amir had to kill Rain in 95. If Rabin wasn't killed in 95, then by your admition, he would be voted out in 96 by the largest margin in Israeli history. So once more: why wasn't there no option except killing Rabin???


I was talking about manipulations of the MKs. And since the ... was dead already and Olso had been killing people, what difference did it make?
"manipulations of the MKs" is another name for politics. Every politician is doing a few dirty tricks to remain in power. That's an integral part of democratic system.

[Reffo]

Rabin was killed for his actions, not because of religion. He was killed for pushing the country into a stupid position against the will of more than 75% of the population. As far as I am concerned, Amir has done the only thing a concerned citizen can do when the appropriate authorities and legal safeguards fail. What else could anyone possibly do to stop Rabin from destroying Israel?KW, I know you have your heart in the right place when it comes to the future of Israel but I have to say that Rabin's assassination by Yigal Amir was an unforgivable crime. Although in hindsight most people safely conclude that Oslo was a failure, it still had to be tried. In fact, if you think about it, together with Barak's spurned offer, it actually had some positive effects in the sense that it convinced many Israelis (not all) who tended to be somewhat naive (before Oslo and Barak's offer) to be a bit more realistic in their expectations. There are now many more people who advocate less appeasment and more hard nosed negotiations.

[Leon]

Leon,

Why does it bother you so much that I am an atheist ?? It doesn't bother me that you are religious .... it just bothers me when so called religious people like that Rabbi add to the incitement .



You ask what we have to fear .... we fear the breakdown of our society and a return to the atmosphere that prevailed before the assassination of Rabin .
It has already started ..... and the foul stench of the extremists is once again in the very air we breathe .


The fact that your an athiest doesnt bother me - what bothers me is your attitude toward your country and more importantly toward your fellow Jew. The hatred purley lies with you -- the hatred toward ure fellow Jew (which borders on an obssesive fetish) is spilled out in ure spam like posts on this forum where anyone who doesnt tickel your fancy or sees eye to eye on certain issues is automatically branded an "extremist..." Orwellian newspeak in full force. Yes the foul stench of extremisim is in the air since its coming from ure neck of the woods.


The curse from the Rabbi shouldnt bother you -- if you are an athiest why believe in it? A few months ago, an Aborigional woman along with the disgraced chairman/President of the so called "Aborigional parliament" in Australia openly casted a curse of death upon Prime Minister Howard by pionting an animal bone at him in full view of the public. It seemed to bother no one at all and their were no cries to have the woman arrested...after all it was only a symbolic act with words - a protest and in a liberal democratic country such things (as a way of non-voilent protest) should be permissable.

[Leon]

[QUOTE=sharonbn]Rabin's assassination will never be forgotten or forgiven. Never and never again.

The 18 innocent Jewish men and women that Rabin savagley murdered in cold blood in 1948 will never be forgotten or forgiven.


I think its despicable that a Jew praises the murder of another Jew. You can call Rabin and the left wing traitors and you can say we're responsible for killing of Jews by PLO, I know we stab the nation in the back, I know we aid the enemy blah blah blah....

But we never praise and joy over killing of Jews. We never dance of the blood of our political rivals.

See Altalena.


I'm not gloating over Rabin's death, but as the saying goes "you reap what you sow." Altalena - never forgive, never forget.

[Leon]

[QUOTE=Reffo]I have to say that Rabin's assassination by Yigal Amir was an unforgivable crime.

Once again - you reap what you sow.



Although in hindsight most people safely conclude that Oslo was a failure, it still had to be tried.

really? so no regrets or turning back the clock?


fact, if you think about it, together with Barak's spurned offer, it actually had some positive effects in the sense that it convinced many Israelis (not all) who tended to be somewhat naive (before Oslo and Barak's offer) to be a bit more realistic in their expectations.

At what cost?

[Leon]

:rolleyes:

I bet you Hamas militants are saying exactly the same (well, their country and their God, perhaps).

yep all Hamas terrorists were once doctors and had friends who were doctors who all treated sick Jewish children...until one day they lost the plot because their good doctor friends and people who were close to them were murdered by Jewish terrorists. In revenge one of these Hamas terrorists walked into a synagogue - notorious for its incitment to murder Arabs in cold blood - and shot up a couple of Jews - members of a congregation known for its terrorist/extremist activities. As a matter of fact thousands of these sort of attacks have occurred against Jews in not just synangogues but discos, buses, cafes family resteraunts and other places where extremist Jews congregate and incitment to voilence against Arabs is rampant.

Funny when making comparisons b/w "extremists on both sides" you have to go back 12 years to find one isolated example.

[takeo]

I do not support terrorists. I support the double-wall approach: 1-wall the Arabs off, and 2-keep them away with Jabotinsky's iron wall. But your anti-Israeli anti-Semitism speaks for itself.

Regarding Baruch Goldstein, what exactly is your issue with him? He was a guy who snapped from seeing dear friends and family members being murdered by Arabs. Do you in the same vein blame the mentally retarded homeless people for being the way they are?

So Goldstein is a poor victim, right? It are the Palestinians who made him do what he did, they are to blame...
You support the murderer of Rabin so you support violence against the Israeli state.

Your anti-Arab and anti-Russian, anti-french etc. racism speaks for itself, I'm neither anti-Israel nor anti-semitic.

[Leon]

Your anti-Arab and anti-Russian, anti-french etc. racism speaks for itself,

ahh, yes the racism card. while ure at it, add anti-takeo or takeo-phobic to my list.



I'm neither anti-Israel nor anti-semitic.

Thats cause some of your best friends are Jewish, right?

[KettleWhistle]

Same legality as the Oslo talks.

No, that's not true. There were laws against negociating with terrorists. So in fact these were illegal.


He was "taken care of" (what a sick terminology) before the voters could say their say about Oslo accord. He won the 92 elections. in 93 he signed the Oslo accord. in 96, the voters could have say "we want you out." That's how it works in democracy that doesn't sponsor political assassinations.
Saying "we won't you out" wouldn't stop Oslo. Rabin won the election. Oslo did not. Oslo was not put on a national vote. Instead, Rabin usurped power, and pushed the implementation of Oslo by authoritarian and undemocratic means. It is not a matter of popularity. It is a matter of major policy direction requiring support of the electorate. Otherwise, it is not democracy, but an authocracy.


Second, if the opionion pools were 75% against Rabin, I **STILL** don't understand what was so urgent that Amir had to kill Rain in 95. It wasn't urgent. It was overdue. The idea, I'd think obviously, was to stop Oslo, and to stop Rabin--a senile madman--from causing any more damage to Israel.


"manipulations of the MKs" is another name for politics. Every politician is doing a few dirty tricks to remain in power. That's an integral part of democratic system.No, it's not. Democracy simply means that the eligible citizens elect their officials and vote on major policy directions for the country. Rabin's actions were illegal, undemocratic, and authoritarian.

[KettleWhistle]

So Goldstein is a poor victim, right? It are the Palestinians who made him do what he did, they are to blame... I am going to ask you again: do you in the same vein blame the mentally retarded homeless people for being the way they are?

You support the murderer of Rabin so you support violence against the Israeli state. No, my support is that for a good citizens who has done his duty in getting rid of a traitorous dictator.


Your anti-Arab and anti-Russian, anti-french etc. racism speaks for itself, Wrong. I am not racist. I haven't proposed anything racist against these peoples. You are just a liar. Most Arabs and French are our enemies. It has nothing to do with their race. And Jews belong to the same race as Arabs, btw. I don't know where you came up with the Russians, but then it's not it's news for anyone that you're full of s--t.

[KettleWhistle]

KW, I know you have your heart in the right place when it comes to the future of Israel but I have to say that Rabin's assassination by Yigal Amir was an unforgivable crime.
Why?


Although in hindsight most people safely conclude that Oslo was a failure, it still had to be tried.
Again, why? Why bring back a terrorist who essencially lost, and was far and way, unable to cause nearly as much trouble as he has before. Why bring him back, against the will of most of the citizenry, give him land, and arm him?

[sharonbn]

It wasn't urgent. It was overdue. The idea, I'd think obviously, was to stop Oslo, and to stop Rabin--a senile madman--from causing any more damage to Israel.
if it wasn't urgent then it was unnecessary to assasinate Rabin. Amir coulod have wait the 7-8 month till elections.

It was a useless unnecessary cruel murder. The murderer sits where he deserves. I truely hope he will have no children. His seed should die with him.

[KettleWhistle]

Honestly, I fail to undertand such hatred towards him. Especially because he didn't kill Rabin in a cruel way, and he had a good reason to do what he did.

[frizzer1]

Well,it has happened.I never thought it would come to this.I don't know what the world is coming to.
I should have expected that it would take KettleWhistle's admiration for a jewish terrorist to bring it about...
and that is that I agree with Takeo.He is the one stating truths here.He is the one standing up for justice and honour here.He is the one who expects jews to behave as moral,decent human beings while KW expects them to behave like arab terrorists.
Oh well they tell me that the sun will rise tomorrow,so all is not lost.

[KettleWhistle]

Excuse me?

So standing up to a tyrannical politician is terrorism? Fighting for your motherland is acting like the Arab terrorists? And sympathizing with our people's enemies who want to take our motherland from us is justice to you?

I hope the sun doesn't come up tomorrow.

[Reffo]

Leon and KW rightly ask:

”really? so no regrets or turning back the clock?”, “At what cost?”, “Again, why? Why bring back a terrorist who essentially lost, and was far and way, unable to cause nearly as much trouble as he has before. Why bring him back, against the will of most of the citizenry, give him land, and arm him?”

I am not defending Rabin as a man although he dedicated his life to Israel, even though, like all of us, he has made mistakes. Many people argue that Oslo was one of those mistakes and with the benefit of hindsight I for one would not disagree with that point of view. Nevertheless, I do believe that back in the early nineties Oslo did look like a great opportunity to reach a final peace agreement with all the main protagonists of Israel. Moreover, even if one disagreed with this assessment at the time (as some people did), I don’t believe that Rabin could have withstood the pressure applied by Israel’s allies (George Bush Senior’s administration in particular). So, do we know what would have been the cost/s of not proceeding with the Oslo accords, in terms of the morale of the Israeli population ? Many would have wavered at the thought of waging an endless war without even an attempt to make peace when the opportunity was seen to present itself. What would have been the cost in terms of loss of support, particularly American support? If you doubt this assessment then just look at the current situation, even Sharon who has always been more of a hard liner seems to be following the path of Rabin.

Leon says:

”Once again - you reap what you sow.”
KW asks:

”Why ?”

I can only say that this is one area where we could learn from the Palestinians. Just look at them and see how much of an effort they made not to go down the path that Israel has already took by the assassination of Rabin. I think the Palestinian Islamists use the term “Fitna” to describe internal strife and they have been avoiding this at all cost because they see this as destructive to their cause and objectives. Remember, it was not just Rabin who was assassinated, he was the prime minister of Israel and it set a horrible precedent, both real and symbolic. It set Israeli against Israeli and Jew against Jew. Do you really believe that we can afford to resolve our disagreements this way? Just look at history, every time we have gone down this path, it ended in our own destruction and exile. Even if you believe that Rabin as a person was guilty of wrongful acts and misjudgments his assassination was not the answer. By all means, bring about his political downfall, even take him to court for past misdeeds but yes, the assassination of a democratically elected prime minister was not only criminal, it was stupid.

[Reffo]

So Goldstein is a poor victim, right? It are the Palestinians who made him do what he did, they are to blame...Takeo, you on the other hand seem to be bending over too far to understand and excuse the motives and actions of the Arabs and Palestinians. OK, but by the same token why can't you accept that Goldstein was an aberration who reacted to the extreme, indiscriminate and incessant violence of the Palestinians ? Moreover, please accept that most (I say most) Jews and Israelis never did and still don't condone his actions. Can you assure us that there are as many Palestinians who oppose their terrorism against Israelis/Jews ?

[takeo]

Takeo, you on the other hand seem to be bending over too far to understand and excuse the motives and actions of the Arabs and Palestinians. OK, but by the same token why can't you accept that Goldstein was an aberration who reacted to the extreme, indiscriminate and incessant violence of the Palestinians ? Moreover, please accept that most (I say most) Jews and Israelis never did and still don't condone his actions. Can you assure us that there are as many Palestinians who oppose their terrorism against Israelis/Jews ?

You are absolutely right, Goldstein was perhaps an extreme reaction to the extreme violence his community has to face. Yet in the same way you should understand palestinian support for extreme violence is largely connected to the incessant humiliations and hardships they have to face every day as a result of Israeli policy. Indeed, more palestinians support such extreme violence than Israeli's, because most Israeli citizens have a relatively peacefull and prosperous life and don't live under military occupation. Why do you think support for such extreme violence is much lower among palestinians with the Israeli nationality who have (at least in theory) equal rights?
The difference is that a lot of hatred on the pro-Israel side (I'm not talking about the Jewish community, which is much broader) comes from people who do not suffer at all at the hands of palestinians but have ideological motives, people such as Kettle. Likewise most settlers choose to live in the warlike situation while palestinians can't choose where to live.

[takeo]

KettleWhistle]

I am going to ask you again: do you in the same vein blame the mentally retarded homeless people for being the way they are?

I don't see the analogy...




No, my support is that for a good citizens who has done his duty in getting rid of a traitorous dictator.

lol you support someone who murdered the elected prime minister of Israel, the country you claim to defend... (and the only democracy in the middle East, as much repeated on this board)




Wrong. I am not racist. I haven't proposed anything racist against these peoples. You are just a liar. Most Arabs and French are our enemies. It has nothing to do with their race. And Jews belong to the same race as Arabs, btw. I don't know where you came up with the Russians, but then it's not it's news for anyone that you're full of s--t.

You are full of $hit yourself, you constantly attack Russia and all Russians without differentiating, France and all French, all Arabs and you pretend not to be a racist? Hitler too said the Jews were the ennemies of the german people, this is what racism is all about.

[Mediocrates]

Nonsense. 50 years in 'refugee camps' administered by and surrounded by other Palestinians, typically those on the Fatah, PFLP, al Aqsa or Tanzim payroll. Paid for by professional EUocrats who's only dossier is to maintain the status quo. And in order that these other Palestinians and EUocrats get to maintain this stasis they feed the underclasses sweet words that someday they'll be able to drag themselves to Tel Aviv and live in some Jew's apartment for free. Just be patient and sit there and be pawns for a few more decades. To say nothing that 2/3rds of all Palestinians in the world live outside of the West Bank and their mothers mothers mother probably never set foot in the West Bank either, nonetheless they're not granted citizenship in those other countries like Lebanon, Syria or Jordan either. Please please when you wave the bloody shirt get all the facts straight.

[Mediocrates]

BTW dear heart most dead Israelis are in Israel. So I suppose that chosing to live in their own country, continuing to breathe is somehow their own fault too?

[Mira]

actually as you said the settlers are just an instrument of the Israeli government, who brought them there, protected them and paid them (both labour and Likud), as the PLO leadership indeed used hamas and other radicals for their own benefit and will dispose of them whenever it's the right moment. And as instruments they can dispose whenever their utility is outdated.

Kind of like the British did with the Jews in Palestine?

[Mediocrates]

Disingenuous as its actions may be, the Israeli govt. never sent those families out into YESHA with an armload of guns and told them to blow up schools and buses and shoot and stab people on the highway. Perhaps what you can say is that the great moral failure of the Israeli government was that they delusionally believed that the Palestinians were at the core, humane.

[takeo]

Nonsense. 50 years in 'refugee camps' administered by and surrounded by other Palestinians, typically those on the Fatah, PFLP, al Aqsa or Tanzim payroll. Paid for by professional EUocrats who's only dossier is to maintain the status quo. And in order that these other Palestinians and EUocrats get to maintain this stasis they feed the underclasses sweet words that someday they'll be able to drag themselves to Tel Aviv and live in some Jew's apartment for free. Just be patient and sit there and be pawns for a few more decades. To say nothing that 2/3rds of all Palestinians in the world live outside of the West Bank and their mothers mothers mother probably never set foot in the West Bank either, nonetheless they're not granted citizenship in those other countries like Lebanon, Syria or Jordan either. Please please when you wave the bloody shirt get all the facts straight.

Without UN-administration those camps would have been even more miserable, the problem is that those people can't return to the homes of their parents and grand-parents, which is of course a continuing source of hate and violence against Israel, as well as the fact they don't have any freedom to move around, have foreigners administering their country and colonising it. Palestinians in many Arab neighbours are not threated well, that's a fact, yet they don't blame as much their hosts as the ones who banned them, I think this too is quite logical.
Of course Syria, Jordan, etc. use those palestinians as pawns for their own policy, but that doesn't hide the core problem of the issue, which is the fact that they are banned and many of them living under occupation.

[takeo]

Kind of like the British did with the Jews in Palestine?

Not really, Brittish relations with the zionists were never straight.

[takeo]

BTW dear heart most dead Israelis are in Israel. So I suppose that chosing to live in their own country, continuing to breathe is somehow their own fault too?

A giant difference, Israel is not "occupied territory" and not a disputed territory, it is a country where one can build a life, start a business without too much danger, exactly as in any other part of the world. moreover, most Israeli's have lived there all their life and have ties to the land. The occupied territories are dangerous, internationally disputed, not profitable, and simply not a good place to rase your children and live. All inhabitants who live there do not have ties to the land as all of them came there since the 80's, very well aware of the disputed and dangerous caracter of the area. They choose to endanger their life and the life of their children, live on disputed territory. Only fanatical people can make such a decision. The worst part however is that the Israeli government encouraged them and even paid them, since living there is not profitable on itself.

[Mediocrates]

nonsense, word salad. 4th generation anyone has little if any claim to anything.

[Canajew]

Without UN-administration those camps would have been even more miserable, the problem is that those people can't return to the homes of their parents and grand-parents, which is of course a continuing source of hate and violence against Israel, as well as the fact they don't have any freedom to move around, have foreigners administering their country and colonising it. Palestinians in many Arab neighbours are not threated well, that's a fact, yet they don't blame as much their hosts as the ones who banned them, I think this too is quite logical.
Of course Syria, Jordan, etc. use those palestinians as pawns for their own policy, but that doesn't hide the core problem of the issue, which is the fact that they are banned and many of them living under occupation.

Those people are no more Israeli than I am polish.

This is the exact kind of intellectual disjoint that causes leftists to rail against the "refugees" "created" by Israel (through the birth of children outside of Israel) but yet ignore what causes people BORN IN KUWAIT who were thrown out because their ancestors WERE Palestinian (it is not an ethnic group, but a protonational political identity) and Arafat backed Saddam.

Sure there were hundreds of thousands made refugees through this mass expulsion by Kuwaiti Arabs of other Kuwaiti Arabs who were denied citizenship based on ancestry, but it is the JOOOS fault.

Please address this.

[KettleWhistle]

KettleWhistle]I don't see the analogy... Goldstein was a man who lost it. What do you not understand about it?

lol you support someone who murdered the elected prime minister of Israel, the country you claim to defend... (and the only democracy in the middle East, as much repeated on this board) So what if he was elected? He betrayed his country. That why he deserved it.


You are full of $hit yourself, you constantly attack Russia and all Russians without differentiating, France and all French, all Arabs and you pretend not to be a racist? Hitler too said the Jews were the ennemies of the german people, this is what racism is all about.Wrong. My dislike for Russians, French, and Arabs has nothing to do with their race. Get yourself an encyclopedia and learn what racism is, instead of making a dolt of yourself by mouthing off your nonsense.

[KettleWhistle]

Leon and KW rightly askRemember, it was not just Rabin who was assassinated, he was the prime minister of Israel and it set a horrible precedent, both real and symbolic. I disagree. I believe it was misrepresented for political purposes. But I have to ask you, what in your opinion would be the line a politician would have to cross for a murder to be justifiable? In the U.S., we have a history of our leaders affirming the right of citizenry to rise up to tyranical politicans. In fact that's what the Second Amendment of our Constitution, which allows citizens to bear arms, is mostly about. Granted that no backwood militia could uprise to confront the army, police, or National Guard, the explicit right to defend freedom is there. I tend to think that Rabin crossed that line. Yes, he surely was the Israeli PM, but that's exactly what allowed him to do what he did.

[Leon]

Reffo, one doesnt really have to justify Rabin's murder to see that he got what is described as an "eye for an eye." Its amazing how people are still so shocked and ask "how is it possible for a Jew to kill another Jew...especially a Jewish Prime Minister". They should have asked that question about the possiblity of Jews killing Jews back in 1948.



Remember, it was not just Rabin who was assassinated, he was the prime minister of Israel and it set a horrible precedent, both real and symbolic. It set Israeli against Israeli and Jew against Jew.

The horrible precedent was already set in motion back in 1948, when 18 innocent Jews were murdered by their fellow Jews - and it was set in motion by the very same man who died by a Jewish bullet in 1995. Reap what u sow

[takeo]

Those people are no more Israeli than I am polish.

This is the exact kind of intellectual disjoint that causes leftists to rail against the "refugees" "created" by Israel (through the birth of children outside of Israel) but yet ignore what causes people BORN IN KUWAIT who were thrown out because their ancestors WERE Palestinian (it is not an ethnic group, but a protonational political identity) and Arafat backed Saddam.

Sure there were hundreds of thousands made refugees through this mass expulsion by Kuwaiti Arabs of other Kuwaiti Arabs who were denied citizenship based on ancestry, but it is the JOOOS fault.

Please address this.

As a lawyer you should know this is not an honest comparison, Kouweit was a host country for the palestinians, who all of them have their origins in what today is Israel, they didn't live for many generations in Kouweit, and still were migrants. And if your grandparents were polish and lost their entire possession why shouldn't you have the right to move back to poland to reclaim it? What happened in 1948 was etnic cleansing, the conflict will only be really solved when the majority in Israel is going to admit it and offer a solution for this old problem. The Palestinians were the majoritarian inhabitants of what would be israel before 1948 and they didn't dissolve in thin air... they children and grand-children are still demanding the right to return or at least compensation to the lost property of their families and I think they have every moral right to demand this.

[takeo]

KettleWhistle]
Goldstein was a man who lost it. What do you not understand about it?

He didn't lost it, he was ideologically inspired, as you are too, by the constant hate-machinery of the ultra-right political organisations.





So what if he was elected? He betrayed his country. That why he deserved it.

He took a decision you didn't support, so you decide to murder him, that's not how democracy works, to say the least...




Wrong. My dislike for Russians, French, and Arabs has nothing to do with their race. Get yourself an encyclopedia and learn what racism is, instead of making a dolt of yourself by mouthing off your nonsense.

All racists will always find a reason to legitimise their racism, but it still comes down to the same: you dislike someone based on his etnicity.

[KettleWhistle]

KettleWhistle]He didn't lost it, he was ideologically inspired, as you are too, by the constant hate-machinery of the ultra-right political organisations. He was not ideologically inspired. He had seen many people who were close to him, and their children, die in the hands of Arab terrorists. He had lost because of that. Gee, get a clue.


He took a decision you didn't support, so you decide to murder him, that's not how democracy works, to say the least...
I didn't decide to murder him. Igal Amir did, and I thank him for it. What Rabin did was not a "desision." It was a betrayal. He was a traitor to his country, and democracy has nothing to do with any of it.


All racists will always find a reason to legitimise their racism, but it still comes down to the same:Since you are one, I don't have to argue with you.


you dislike someone based on his etnicity. No, moron. As I told you before, their ethnicity has nothing to do with it. It is a matter of their actions against my people, not their ethnicity. If the French scum left Israel alone and stopped supporting our enemies, I wouldn't have cared for them one way or the other. Ditto the Russians.

[Reffo]

But I have to ask you, what in your opinion would be the line a politician would have to cross for a murder to be justifiable? In the U.S., we have a history of our leaders affirming the right of citizenry to rise up to tyranical politicans. In fact that's what the Second Amendment of our Constitution, which allows citizens to bear arms, is mostly about. Granted that no backwood militia could uprise to confront the army, police, or National Guard, the explicit right to defend freedom is there. I tend to think that Rabin crossed that line. Yes, he surely was the Israeli PM, but that's exactly what allowed him to do what he did.You raised two issues:

"Rabin crossed that line"
"The right to defend freedom"

If you don't mind, I will not debate the first issue for now and for the sake of discussion lets agree that he did cross the line. Even then, IMO (and I don't just think it's my opinion only), the assassination of Rabin was both Illegal and foolhardy and on balance, against the national interest. You may say, what about the right of the citizenry to defend freedom against tyranny ? Well, I put it to you that in many countries, including Israel, there is a safeguard to ensure against this and it does not involve political assassination. For example, in Australia, they have a Governor General who can dismiss the prime minister and the government and that's exactly what happened in 1975 when the then Labor Prime Minister (Gough Whitlam) was dismissed when he behaved unconstitutionally. In Israel, a vote of “no confidence” in the Knesset fulfills exactly the same function, here is a reference site which outlines the procedures:
http://www.knesset.gov.il/rules/eng/bchap2.htm
I have to say that the idea that an individual citizen (like Yigal Amir) has the right to take the law into his own hands in order to right so called wrongs committed by a government, is “going down the slippery slope”. Where does it stop ? “Yesterday” it was Amir (a right wing fanatic) who took the law into his own hand “tomorrow” it may be an extreme left wing nut case who might do the same to a prime minister who is against compromise with the Arabs. Can’t you see that what you advocate is a recipe for anarchy ?

[Reffo]

The horrible precedent was already set in motion back in 1948, when 18 innocent Jews were murdered by their fellow Jews - and it was set in motion by the very same man who died by a Jewish bullet in 1995. Reap what u sowTo be honest Leon, I don't know a lot about the incident to which you refer. I do remember reading about something like that many years ago and I remember being sad about it, I guess I will have to do a bit more research on it. However, if as you say Rabin did it and he had the primary responsibility for it and it was done illegally, then I would put it to you that he should have been brought to a court of law and he should have been answerable for any wrongdoings. But Leon, you know very well that in any case,Yigal Amir did not assassinate Rabin for that reason and I already outlined why I am against the idea of assssinating the Prime Minister of Israel. It is against the national interest (see my post above to KW).

[Reffo]

You are absolutely right, Goldstein was perhaps an extreme reaction to the extreme violence his community has to face. Yet in the same way you should understand palestinian support for extreme violence is largely connected to the incessant humiliations and hardships they have to face every day as a result of Israeli policy. Indeed, more palestinians support such extreme violence than Israeli's, because most Israeli citizens have a relatively peacefull and prosperous life and don't live under military occupation. Why do you think support for such extreme violence is much lower among palestinians with the Israeli nationality who have (at least in theory) equal rights?
The difference is that a lot of hatred on the pro-Israel side (I'm not talking about the Jewish community, which is much broader) comes from people who do not suffer at all at the hands of palestinians but have ideological motives, people such as Kettle. Likewise most settlers choose to live in the warlike situation while palestinians can't choose where to live.You know very well that your analogy is false. On the one hand you have an isolated case of an individual (Goldstein) who goes over the edge and carries out a massacre. And you compare this to organised gangs of terrorists who are or at least were (hopefully they may now stop this - but I don't know for how long) supported by the majority of the Palestinians and their leadership. Moreover, you continually ignore the reasons why Israel has been forced to have check points, closures etc.... It's called self defense and protection of it's own citizenry.....Why, don't you think that France would do the same things to protect it's citizens ? In fact they have done worse in Indo China and Algiers and they even had less justification for being there in the first place...

[Ophra]

Originally Posted by Takeo
You are absolutely right, Goldstein was perhaps an extreme reaction to the extreme violence his community has to face. Yet in the same way you should understand palestinian support for extreme violence is largely connected to the incessant humiliations and hardships they have to face every day as a result of Israeli policy. Indeed, more palestinians support such extreme violence than Israeli's, because most Israeli citizens have a relatively peacefull and prosperous life and don't live under military occupation. Why do you think support for such extreme violence is much lower among palestinians with the Israeli nationality who have (at least in theory) equal rights?
The difference is that a lot of hatred on the pro-Israel side (I'm not talking about the Jewish community, which is much broader) comes from people who do not suffer at all at the hands of palestinians but have ideological motives, people such as Kettle. Likewise most settlers choose to live in the warlike situation while palestinians can't choose where to live.

Reffo,

I see that you are struggling to understand .... I don't have any free time right now but I will try to answer this and other posts when I can (if I am allowed to ;) )
Know this ........ Takeo's above post is right on the button.

[Mediocrates]

So I was reading this this morning and it struck me that the problem with Hezbollah is not that they are terrorists, which of course cannot be uttered in the same sentence as Arab - it simply does not compute - but that Hezbollah must be secretly composed of Jewish settlers.

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2005/april/04_07_4.html


JERUSALEM [MENL] -- Hizbullah was said to have financed an effort to kill prominent Israelis.
Israeli military sources said authorities have received information that Hizbullah ordered the monitoring and targeting of unidentified Israeli politicians and military commanders. They said the effort has been coordinated with Palestinian operatives sponsored by Hizbullah in the West Bank.


The Hizbullah order was part of a strategy to spark tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, the sources said. They said Hizbullah was believed to be planning major attacks against Israel prior or during its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and northern West Bank in the summer of 2005.


A Hizbullah-sponsored cell was determined to have targeted a prominent Israeli scheduled to have visited the Nablus area of the West Bank. The sources said the cell, captured on Feb. 25, had been ordered to track the VIP and train operatives for an assassination.

[KettleWhistle]

To be honest Leon, I don't know a lot about the incident to which you refer. I do remember reading about something like that many years ago and I remember being sad about it, I guess I will have to do a bit more research on it. However, if as you say Rabin did it and he had the primary responsibility for it and it was done illegally, then I would put it to you that he should have been brought to a court of law and he should have been answerable for any wrongdoings. But Leon, you know very well that in any case,Yigal Amir did not assassinate Rabin for that reason and I already outlined why I am against the idea of assssinating the Prime Minister of Israel. It is against the national interest (see my post above to KW).

You can read about the Altalena affair here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Altalena.html

This article gives a good description of the affair, but omits the political meaning. Aside from being criminal, the attack on Altalena was used by the left-wing of Israeli politicians--Ben Gurion & Co.--to take power by decimating the opposition. This was a crucial move in early Israeli politics that gave Labor a virtual political monopoly for decades to come.

P.S. I'll get back to your other post later because I'm a bit busy right now.

[Reffo]

Thanks KW, as I said it was a sad affair but I must also note that Rabin's name was not mentioned in your link (It sounds to me like the main protagonists were Ben Gurion and Begin). In any case, the article convinces me even more that we Jews should not allow such tragedies again due to lack of unity and personal pride. I tell you (it might sound corny) but it will be our downfall, if we go down that path.

[Reffo]

I see that you are struggling to understand .... Yes, I am struggling to understand why Takeo equates and excuses the Palestinian actions because of one atrocity which was PROVOKED by Palestinian violence. Now I am not saying that Israel's occupation tactics don't provoke Plestinian hatred, that would be unrealistic. But I am saying that the occupation tactics of Israel are in turn PROVOKED by Plalestinian violence in the first place. Palestinian violence is the CAUSE OF THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION TACTICS ! unfortunately, it also serves to perpetuate the hate and yes, I agree that this cycle must be broken and that's where our perspectives differs. Takeo claims that all will be good if Israel gives in to ALL the Palestinian demands, people like me say that there has to be COMPROMISE BY BOTH SIDES, not just Israel.

[KettleWhistle]

Thanks KW, as I said it was a sad affair but I must also note that Rabin's name was not mentioned in your link (It sounds to me like the main protagonists were Ben Gurion and Begin). In any case, the article convinces me even more that we Jews should not allow such tragedies again due to lack of unity and personal pride. I tell you (it might sound corny) but it will be our downfall, if we go down that path.
Well, we have a history of that, yet, so many of our people still wouldn't learn from our own history. In the Altalena incident, Rabin was the one who oversaw the shooting of the people swimming to the shore. Overall, it was a political ploy by Ben Gurion to essencially usurp political power. Otherwise, he would've had to accept Begin into the goverment, and he simply chose to sacrifice the passengers of Altalena in order to prevent that.

[KettleWhistle]

You raised two issues:


"Rabin crossed that line"
"The right to defend freedom"
If you don't mind, I will not debate the first issue for now and for the sake of discussion lets agree that he did cross the line. Even then, IMO (and I don't just think it's my opinion only), the assassination of Rabin was both Illegal and foolhardy and on balance, against the national interest.

I agree that it was illegal, under the Israeli law. Does that mean it wasn't justified? I don't think so. Regarding it being foolhardy, yes, it was. But I don't believe it was against national interest. You have to take into account the fact that Rabin was percieved by most Israelis as being out of control. Most didn't buy Oslo. Add to that the fact that secret negotiations that led to Oslo were illegal, and yet nobody was persecuted for clear violation of the law. When Rabin was killed I at a Jewish conference in Eatern Europe. Most people there were very happy and celebratory (if that's a real word) about it. For a day or two there was hope that Oslo will be abolished, and the situation in Israel will normalize after several years of increasing terrorism and lawlessness in the territories that were relatively calm before.

You may say, what about the right of the citizenry to defend freedom against tyranny ? Well, I put it to you that in many countries, including Israel, there is a safeguard to ensure against this and it does not involve political assassination. For example, in Australia, they have a Governor General who can dismiss the prime minister and the government and that's exactly what happened in 1975 when the then Labor Prime Minister (Gough Whitlam) was dismissed when he behaved unconstitutionally. In Israel, a vote of “no confidence” in the Knesset fulfills exactly the same function, here is a reference site which outlines the procedures:
http://www.knesset.gov.il/rules/eng/bchap2.htm (http://www.knesset.gov.il/rules/eng/bchap2.htm) But despite numberous violations of the Israeli law by Rabin and his cohorts, and huge popular opposition to Oslo, it wasn't done. Rather, there was consolidation of power under Rabin, political intimidation, media censorship, and general attempts by the government to silence the opposition.

I have to say that the idea that an individual citizen (like Yigal Amir) has the right to take the law into his own hands in order to right so called wrongs committed by a government, is “going down the slippery slope”. Where does it stop ? I am not advocating anarchy, or that individuals take the law into their own hands. I am only saying that if there are exceptional circumstances, such is justified. It is absolutely the last resort in dealing with leaders who are out of control. And that was exactly the case with Rabin. His actions weren't just foolish, but they also went against the law, against the wishes of the citizenry, and it bypassed the democratic process of a national vote on issue. At the time many felt that Rabin had to be stopped before he causes any more damage. I fully agree with that view.

[Reffo]

I am not advocating anarchy, or that individuals take the law into their own hands. I am only saying that if there are exceptional circumstances, such is justified. It is absolutely the last resort in dealing with leaders who are out of control. And that was exactly the case with Rabin. His actions weren't just foolish, but they also went against the law, against the wishes of the citizenry, and it bypassed the democratic process of a national vote on issue. At the time many felt that Rabin had to be stopped before he causes any more damage. I fully agree with that view.No one says that democracy is perfect but that's the best we got and we should make the most of it. Sure, it has weaknesses and the boundries can be pushed by clever politicians but if they do the wrong thing for too long, I think most democracies are robust enough to eventually get rid of such politicians. You are saying that under "exceptional circumstances", democracy can and should be bypassed. But I ask you, who determines what is an exceptional circumstance ? My answer is that it's certainly not a single individual. At best, I would think that something like what happened in Ukraine would have been more acceptable.

[KettleWhistle]

What happened in Ukraine, and in Georgia several month prior to that, is optimal. But that's not always possible, and doesn't necesserily fit for every culture. Sure we like to think that most democracies can regulate themselves, but it just isn't always the case.

Think "corrupt sheriff." I don't how it works for you guys down under, but in the U.S. sheriffs are elected. Yet, in many backwards towns, sheriffs often run the place, intimidating others, chasing out the outsiders, and otherwise turning their towns into their own mini-kingdoms. Would it be wrong to resist someone like that? I don't think so.

[Reffo]

I really do think that sometimes in life we have to make a choice which is "a lesser of two evils". I think in the context of our discussion, I would rather err on choosing to work within democracy and make it work as best as possible, as imperfect as it may be at times.

[Reffo]

Reffo,

I see that you are struggling to understand .... I don't have any free time right now but I will try to answer this and other posts when I can (if I am allowed to :) )
Know this ........ Takeo's above post is right on the button.Waiting......Waiting.......Waiting........ :)

[Ophra]

Waiting......Waiting.......Waiting........ :)

It's not really relevant ... but read this anyway :

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/production/files/podhoretzadvance.html

[Reffo]

It's not really relevant ... but read this anyway :

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/p...etzadvance.html
Ophra, thanks for this great article, I have a lot of respect for Norman Podhoretz. I am not sure that it is as irrelevant as you make it out, to what I said before. I think that if you take the trouble to look at a sample of my posts, you might be surprised to see how often they are in line with what Norman believes and advocates in his article.

By the way, I assume that this clarification below (as per my earlier post) negates your earlier support for Takeo ?

Yes, I am struggling to understand why Takeo equates and excuses the Palestinian actions because of one atrocity which was PROVOKED by Palestinian violence. Now I am not saying that Israel's occupation tactics don't provoke Plestinian hatred, that would be unrealistic. But I am saying that the occupation tactics of Israel are in turn PROVOKED by Plalestinian violence in the first place. Palestinian violence is the CAUSE OF THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION TACTICS ! unfortunately, it also serves to perpetuate the hate and yes, I agree that this cycle must be broken and that's where our perspectives differs. Takeo claims that all will be good if Israel gives in to ALL the Palestinian demands, people like me say that there has to be COMPROMISE BY BOTH SIDES, not just Israel.

[Ophra]

Okay Reffo... I read through the whole thread again to make sure there is no misunderstanding on my part.

I am not getting into what Takeo said or did not say ..... that's for him to say ;)

What Ophra say's is ..... I also agree that this cycle must be broken ...we cannot give in to ALL the Palestinian demands, of course there has to be COMPROMISE BY BOTH SIDES, not just Israel.

I also have a lot of respect for Norman Podhoretz.....especially this piece :

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/podhoretz.htm

[SteveK]

... What Ophra say's is ..... [b]I also agree that this cycle must be broken ...we cannot give in to ALL the Palestinian demands, of course there has to be COMPROMISE BY BOTH SIDES, not just Israel.[/b...]


Ophra,

However, "giving in" to the "Palestinian" demand for Gaza and other land to make a "contiguous" "Palestinian" state doesn't seem to me to be "compromise" by both sides. It seems to me that Israel is surrendering to and paying a very heavy price for Arab extortion.

And, given this give-a-way by Israel, what more Palestinian "demands" could possibly remain that you could actually believe that "compromise by both sides",- from the Arab side,- could actually be a realistic expectation?

[Reffo]

Okay Reffo... I read through the whole thread again to make sure there is no misunderstanding on my part.

I am not getting into what Takeo said or did not say ..... that's for him to say

What Ophra say's is ..... I also agree that this cycle must be broken ...we cannot give in to ALL the Palestinian demands, of course there has to be COMPROMISE BY BOTH SIDES, not just Israel.

I also have a lot of respect for Norman Podhoretz.....especially this piece :

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/podhoretz.htm

This is what Takeo had to say to my earlier post, in his post 98 of the "Antisemitism" thread. What's your opinion on that ?


If Israel would have complied with all the unjust UN resolutions that were promoted by the Arabs and their crony nations, Israel would have been defeated and destroyed by the Arabs a long time ago and the Arabs and their apologists of today would be looking for other scape goats to blame for their troubles.


Says who? I think Israel would have been peacefully integrated in the middle East region, and today Israel would be smaller but peacefull.
By the way, I will read your link then comment on it later.

[Ophra]

This is what Takeo had to say to my earlier post, in his post 98 of the "Antisemitism" thread. What's your opinion on that ?




By the way, I will read your link then comment on it later.

Which UN resolutions ?...... be more specific. BTW ... I detest the UN :)

[Reffo]

Pick your choice, most are anti Israel, over the last 45 to 50 years, and most were/are unjust. I am willing to accept that theoretically at least a small minority of resolutions were/are appropriate because like everyone, Israel too has made mistakes (but certainly not as many as the UN resolutions would have you believe). The worst UN resolution of course was the famous 1975 (I think), passed by the General Assembly which stated that: "Zionism = Racism". Of course, that resolution itself was racist. I think more recently, the General Assembly also passed a resolution against the security fence.....
Here is a link about it http://www.adl.org/international/Israel_un_biases.asp?m_flipmode=2 There are plenty of others if you do a Google search using a phrase like "anti israel un resolutions".

I totally agree with you about the UN.

So, do you still agree with Takeo ?

[Ophra]

So, do you still agree with Takeo ?

It depends . I'm not sure what he was referring to ... but .... if he was referring to the illegal Settlements then yes I do agree with him. I have been against the settlement program since it's conception . ... I think it is a curse upon us . Not only has it provided a breeding ground for extremism and rabid religious racists it has brought division to the country and to the Army... which in our situation is precarious to say the least.

Worthy of noting :.....

Haaretz published a report in September 2003, in which it revealed that ..... : "" since 1967, Israel has spent roughly $10 billion on the settlements. Currently, the amount spent on settlers is more than $500 million per annum.

Haaretz conceded that researching the report was endlessly frustrating due to the Israeli government's budgeting mechanisms, which have purposefully hidden spending on settlements within other costs, bundling them with subsidies to border communities and those in the Negev Desert, areas where people need to be induced to live either because of risk or limited economic opportunities. This cover-up is part of an unhappy pattern. Although Israel has never officially annexed the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it has treated them, in many ways, as if it had.

This means that those seeking to establish Jewish towns and villages in the captured lands have benefited from generous government subsidies: personal income tax breaks, grants and loans for house purchases, bonuses for teachers. Jewish settlers, who now number 230000, have been granted special bypass highways, water supplies and health clinics. Even the cheery red-roofed bedroom settlements a few miles from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are treated as if they were distant depressed towns. Teachers who settle in them, for example, get four years' seniority, an 80% housing subsidy and 100% reimbursement for travel, and more. The result, according to Haaretz, is that the average settler family benefits from about $10,000 more per year of government spending than a family living within Israel.

All these facilities and incentives have been deducted, over the years, from the funds allocated to vital Israeli services, such as education, security and social welfare, furthering the ethnic gap between Israeli citizens and the settlers.

According to the Israeli Peace Now movement, the Israeli government spends an annual amount of $656 million on settlements. A recent study inside Israel recently revealed that the average settler in the Gaza Strip receives ten times more financial aid from the Israeli government than the average Israeli citizen.

Polls suggest that about 80% of the settlers live where they do primarily for the benefits of inexpensive, modern housing. Housing inside Israel has become extremely expensive, and many working-class people simply cannot afford a decent home. Many settlers have said that they would gladly move back into Israel if they could afford the housing costs. Meanwhile, the Israeli government spends billions of dollars directly, and billions more indirectly through military costs, in maintaining and expanding the settlements. In addition, and not incidentally, the Israeli government has been increasingly adopting neo-liberal economic policies that have led to a reduction in social services for Israelis who actually live inside Israel, leading to a near recession inside Israel in the past few years.7

Many of these steps have been taken in order to please the hard-line rightist faction within Israel – very much on the ascendancy – whose politics are based on the believe that Palestinian lands are Israel's by Divine right. ""

Your thoughts as a moderate would be greatly appreciated

[Reffo]

It depends . I'm not sure what he was referring to I am sure that ALL the settlements were part of it. But that's not all, Takeo is of the opinion that even though Israel was attacked in 1948, it should have withdrawn to it's 1948 UN allocated partition borders and it should have allowed the return of all the Palestinian refugees. Just look at his posts say in the " poll: majority Israelis and Palestinians want the "Clinton Plan" borders" thread.

[Mediocrates]

How much do you think will be spent on them after they 'come home'? I mean they have a few different choices to make, no? They can shove them all to the Negev and wish them well. They can try to forcibly integrate them into secular Israeli society. They can more or less set them apart inside of Israel like they are today in Yesha. If all cheery social engineers merely look at the accounting cost of that I guess the choice is easy enough to make. Abandonment.

[Ophra]

I am sure that ALL the settlements were part of it. But that's not all, Takeo is of the opinion that even though Israel was attacked in 1948, it should have withdrawn to it's 1948 UN allocated partition borders and it should have allowed the return of all the Palestinian refugees. Just look at his posts say in the " poll: majority Israelis and Palestinians want the "Clinton Plan" borders" thread.

I don't want to look ..... I'm not here to attack Takeo :rolleyes:
I'm here to defend the State of Israel !!

[Ophra]

How much do you think will be spent on them after they 'come home'? I mean they have a few different choices to make, no? They can shove them all to the Negev and wish them well. They can try to forcibly integrate them into secular Israeli society. They can more or less set them apart inside of Israel like they are today in Yesha. If all cheery social engineers merely look at the accounting cost of that I guess the choice is easy enough to make. Abandonment.

Yeah well Medio... if they don't like living like the rest of us ..they always have the choice of returning to America or Russia ;)

[Reffo]

No problems, don't look then. But you were the one who said that I was struggling with Takeo ...... I guess I just don't agree, Takeo is certainly not defending Israel's interests.

[sharonbn]

I am sure that ALL the settlements were part of it. But that's not all, Takeo is of the opinion that even though Israel was attacked in 1948, it should have withdrawn to it's 1948 UN allocated partition borders and it should have allowed the return of all the Palestinian refugees. Just look at his posts say in the " poll: majority Israelis and Palestinians want the "Clinton Plan" borders" thread.
The Clinton plan spoke about return to 67 green line border, not partition plan borders. and its the right and only fiseable solution imo.

[sharonbn]

How much do you think will be spent on them after they 'come home'? I mean they have a few different choices to make, no? They can shove them all to the Negev and wish them well. They can try to forcibly integrate them into secular Israeli society. They can more or less set them apart inside of Israel like they are today in Yesha. If all cheery social engineers merely look at the accounting cost of that I guess the choice is easy enough to make. Abandonment.
Fine, you asked for it, so let's make the math:
The vast majority of expenses allocated to GS settlements (and indeed all settlements) go to two functions:

1) First and foremost: security. a large portion of defense budget goes to maintaining large permanent army forces in the area and building and maintaining security related infrastructure (e.g. shielding buses: To shield one bus from bullets costs 1 million NIS ($200K))

2) providing civil services to small remote settlements. Each small settlement requires infrastructure like paving roads, electricity, water, etc. Moreover, since its unsafe to travel, Each small settlement has its own kindergarten, health clinic, etc. if the settlement is a little bigger it has its own school, etc. the least crowded education institutions in Israel are in the O.T. That is one of the reason that the percentage of civil workers among settlers is four times as high as the percentage in the general populace.

Now what happens if they are moved all inside Israel:

1) There is a large initial one time cost of the movement, housing etc.

2) There will no longer be special security requirements. IDF will protect former settlers like all other Israeli civilians.

3) The former settlers will use existing civil services and infrastructure.

I'm not sure where the balance will tip. but at the least I can say its not the black and white picture you drew.

[Mediocrates]

Yeah well Medio... if they don't like living like the rest of us ..they always have the choice of returning to America or Russia ;)


Ein Volk.

[KettleWhistle]

Fine, you asked for it, so let's make the math:
The vast majority of expenses allocated to GS settlements (and indeed all settlements) go to two functions:

1) First and foremost: security. a large portion of defense budget goes to maintaining large permanent army forces in the area and building and maintaining security related infrastructure (e.g. shielding buses: To shield one bus from bullets costs 1 million NIS ($200K))

First of all, even the UN agreed in resolution 242 that the '67 borders are not secure and defendable.

Secondly, shielding a bus costs between $40,000 and $80,000. I know it for a fact because I was personally involved in a project to provide one for the settlers. The $200,000 figure is most likely due to the corruption and pay-to-play operations within the Israeli government.

But most important, it isn't about money. It is about Jews living on our native land. So I understand that you don't like Israel, and that you'd like it to be an Arab-controlled state. Why not just move out of there? Why do you people want to spoil it for those who actually love that country and that land? About 2,000 Jews died because of your actions so far. How many much more blood do you need on your hands?

[Canajew]

In addition, and not incidentally, the Israeli government has been increasingly adopting neo-liberal economic policies that have led to a reduction in social services for Israelis who actually live inside Israel, leading to a near recession inside Israel in the past few years.7


just had to comment on this bit, which I completely disagree with. The recession was caused by the economic shock of the intifadeh, and growth was slowed due to excessive government interference in economic activity coupled with the facilitated monopolization of so mnay Israeli industries. Decreasing public transfer payments would only have a moderate negative effect on GDP (as poor people may have spent a higher proportion and saved less, though this would have an impact on domestic investment, which can affect productivity), but it would have had a positive impact as it pushes those subsisting on handouts to make at least marginal positive economic contributions.

[KettleWhistle]

but it would have had a positive impact as it pushes those subsisting on handouts to make at least marginal positive economic contributions.

No, actually it wouldn't. Such policies hurt the ecomony and the country tremendously in the long run, and often result in lower living standards, indebteness among the poor, bankrupcies, and black-market no-tax jobs.

That's not to say that I agree with the insolent and hypocritical comments made by Ophra--the person who supports murder of Jews, and who robs the State of Israel with her companies no-bid sales to the state.

[Ophra]

No problems, don't look then. But you were the one who said that I was struggling with Takeo ...... I guess I just don't agree, Takeo is certainly not defending Israel's interests.

Sorry... you misunderstood me . I didn't mean to refer that you were struggling with Takeo... I meant the political split within the country . I most certainly do NOT agree that Israel.... "" should have withdrawn to it's 1948 UN allocated partition borders and it should have allowed the return of all the Palestinian refugees. ""....... nobody in their right mind could .

[Reffo]

The Clinton plan spoke about return to 67 green line border, not partition plan borders. and its the right and only fiseable solution imo.Thanks, I agree but I never said otherwise you just misunderstood what I was trying o say to Ophra. What I was saying to her was that in that thread, Takeo posted a message which led me to understand that in his opinion Israel should have returned to the partition borders after their 1948 victory. he also wanted Israel to accept the return of all the Palestinians who fled.

[Ophra]

The Clinton plan spoke about return to 67 green line border, not partition plan borders. and its the right and only fiseable solution imo.

I agree ... but I'm guessing the final border will be the wall .

[Ophra]

Ein Volk.

:confused: Eh ?

.... ani lo mi'vena :D

[Ophra]

No, actually it wouldn't. Such policies hurt the ecomony and the country tremendously in the long run, and often result in lower living standards, indebteness among the poor, bankrupcies, and black-market no-tax jobs.

That's not to say that I agree with the insolent and hypocritical comments made by Ophra--the person who supports murder of Jews, and who robs the State of Israel with her companies no-bid sales to the state.

What !!!! ????? ..... you make less sense than Medio :eek: :confused:
Where have I ever supported murder of anyone ????????????
My companies ?? ...*scratches head*... you been hitting the vodka KW ? :D

[KettleWhistle]

Some of the victims of Yitzhak Rabin (for whom you voted and whose actions you still support, although most people admit that Oslo was a miserable failure): http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/

And I wasn't the one bragging about running a computer company that sells AMD (as opposed to Israeli-made and designed Intel) units.

[sharonbn]

But most important, it isn't about money. It is about Jews living on our native land. So I understand that you don't like Israel, and that you'd like it to be an Arab-controlled state. Why not just move out of there? Why do you people want to spoil it for those who actually love that country and that land? About 2,000 Jews died because of your actions so far. How many much more blood do you need on your hands?
You just don't get it.
If you believe Israelis have a right to live in their native land then I am glad to tell you the news:
I am a native Israeli living on my land. I am third generation Israeli. I have every right and every intention to stay and live here. Furthermore, I have a right to make every attempt to shape the fate of my land as best as I can.

My political opinions do not negate one bit from this basic right. I may be wrong and I may be right, only time will tell that, but making mistakes does not mean I don't "like" my country.

I don't try to tell Americans (or anyone else) how to run their country. I may have an opinion on the matter, but I don't presume to tell any American they don't love their country because I believe they're making mistakes.

[minusthejihad]

if they don't like living like the rest of us

Right out of Hitler's mouth! DO you google? Ein Volk is entirely right.

[Ophra]

Some of the victims of Yitzhak Rabin (for whom you voted and whose actions you still support, although most people admit that Oslo was a miserable failure): http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/

And I wasn't the one bragging about running a computer company that sells AMD (as opposed to Israeli-made and designed Intel) units.

Yup .. I voted for Yitzhak Rabin .. and if he was alive I would still be voting for him ... and you would probably still have the Yesha ;)
I also loved,respected and admired him ... so sue me.
You can call him and me all the names you like KW .... your opinion means nada to me .

I am not in the habit of bragging . Anyhoo I thought you were a capitalist ??..... :)..... AMD processors are better and cheaper than Intel ... wanna buy one and test my theory ???

[Ophra]

You just don't get it.
If you believe Israelis have a right to live in their native land then I am glad to tell you the news:
I am a native Israeli living on my land. I am third generation Israeli. I have every right and every intention to stay and live here. Furthermore, I have a right to make every attempt to shape the fate of my land as best as I can.

I don't try to tell Americans (or anyone else) how to run their country. I may have an opinion on the matter, but I don't presume to tell any American they don't love their country because I believe they're making mistakes.

My political opinions do not negate one bit from this basic right. I may be wrong and I may be right, only time will tell that, but making mistakes does not mean I don't "like" my country.

Ditto :D

[Ophra]

Right out of Hitler's mouth! DO you google? Ein Volk is entirely right.

Ignore mode ....

:cool:

[sharonbn]

Yup .. I voted for Yitzhak Rabin .. and if he was alive I would still be voting for him
hear hear! same here....


... and you would probably still have the Yesha ;)
although we're venturing into area of fools (i.e. prophecy) I think you're wrong here. Sure, in 94 Rabin didn't think about giving up yesha or GS, but that doesn't mean he would not get there. Rabin (and Peres) made the transition from right wing into left in a short term, from the 92 elections to Oslo in 93. So they prove they can change their pov and belief and goals if they come to see reality in a different new light.

I believ Rabin would get to the conclusions that Sharon came to. Only it would probably take a lot less time and less lives...


I also loved,respected and admired him ... so sue me
hear hear! same here.... I do miss him (sob sob)


I am not in the habit of bragging . Anyhoo I thought you were a capitalist ??..... :)..... AMD processors are better and cheaper than Intel ... wanna buy one and test my theory ???
as a proud happy owner of AMD64, I have to say you're right again....

[minusthejihad]

You and SharonBN may have some knowledge of Israel but you just prooved you have no idea about processors. In most IT firms, stating that AMD is better (definately cheaper) than its equivalent Intel chip would get you canned. But hey, I didn't know cows had fingers anyway.

[Canajew]

Some of the victims of Yitzhak Rabin (for whom you voted and whose actions you still support, although most people admit that Oslo was a miserable failure): http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/

And I wasn't the one bragging about running a computer company that sells AMD (as opposed to Israeli-made and designed Intel) units.

right. Economic nationalism is more important than competition in the market place.

Economic nationalists and socialists have a lot in common. maybe not with respect to their motives or intentions, but at least in the effects their policies bring about for average consumers.

[KettleWhistle]

This isn't economic nationalism. It you were to buy an inferior product just because it was made in your country, that would've been economic nationalism. But not in case of equals, when you have to consider a number of factors. One of these would be the impact on the economy as a whole. So, for example, buying a plastic container made in the U.S. for $1.05 is prefferable to buying one that's made in China for $1.00 because the difference is negligible, but keeping jobs in the U.S. can go a long way.

[KettleWhistle]

You just don't get it.
If you believe Israelis have a right to live in their native land then I am glad to tell you the news:
I am a native Israeli living on my land. I am third generation Israeli. I have every right and every intention to stay and live here. Furthermore, I have a right to make every attempt to shape the fate of my land as best as I can.

My political opinions do not negate one bit from this basic right. I may be wrong and I may be right, only time will tell that, but making mistakes does not mean I don't "like" my country.

I don't try to tell Americans (or anyone else) how to run their country. I may have an opinion on the matter, but I don't presume to tell any American they don't love their country because I believe they're making mistakes.

Oh, please, get off the high horse. You are enjoying the priveledge of living in Israel, one that was earned for you by all the Jewish people. Maintaning the Land of Israel an implied moral duty. This isn't a matter of running your country. It is a matter of being patriotic, and loving your native land. That's "land" as opposed to "country" or "state." As for your voting for Rabin, what exactly are you proud of? Most of the people, both in Israel and elsewhere, acknowledged that it was huge mistake. And if you take pride in making mistakes, then, frankly, you're borderline insane.

[Ophra]

although we're venturing into area of fools (i.e. prophecy) I think you're wrong here. Sure, in 94 Rabin didn't think about giving up yesha or GS, but that doesn't mean he would not get there. Rabin (and Peres) made the transition from right wing into left in a short term, from the 92 elections to Oslo in 93. So they prove they can change their pov and belief and goals if they come to see reality in a different new light.

I believ Rabin would get to the conclusions that Sharon came to. Only it would probably take a lot less time and less lives...


Oh I'm sure you are correct in the above ..... actually what I meant was .... because of the assassination it turned many of us towards trying to understand why it had happened and to become much more aware of the right-wing extremists amongst us... least it did with me and mine. Thus making the majority of the population much less sympathetic towards those who had been responsible for the atmosphere before the assassination. I'm convinced that most of the coldness and hardening towards the settlers is because of these radicals amongst them (which really isn't fair... but as Leon says... what goes around comes around)

.... and yes... I miss him to :(

BTW ... make sure you keep your AMD well ventilated and cool .... summer is a comin and it's going to be a long hot one this year ;)

[KettleWhistle]

Yup .. I voted for Yitzhak Rabin .. and if he was alive I would still be voting for him ... and you would probably still have the Yesha ;)

And, yup, the blood of these people is on your hands. So here is the link for you again: http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/

Why don't go to that web site and take a good look at the people you helped murder.

[Ophra]

And, yup, the blood of these people is on your hands. So here is the link for you again: http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/

Why don't go to that web site and take a good look at the people you helped murder.

I don't need to look .... some of them were mine KW... this is a very small country KW... you keep posting your hate you are going to make more enimies than you can handle. :mad:

[sharonbn]

You and SharonBN may have some knowledge of Israel but you just prooved you have no idea about processors. In most IT firms, stating that AMD is better (definately cheaper) than its equivalent Intel chip would get you canned. But hey, I didn't know cows had fingers anyway.
MAYBE you're right about the IT dept. stating that AMD is better may get you canned, but certainly not because Intel is better than AMD, more like because Intel engages in textbook monopoly tactics to force IT dept to purchase Intel hardware only.

AMD Opteron line beats Intel in most server applications. This is common knowledge by now. But hey, don't take my word for it...

AMD's dual core Opteron & Athlon 64 X2 - Server/Desktop Performance Preview
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2397&p=27
Final Words
As a server solution, the dual core Opterons enable a whole new class of performance to be realized on platforms. Two socket servers will now be capable of having the performance of a 4-way system, something that has never been possible in the past. AMD's push with dual core into the server markets half a year before Intel's dual core Xeon arrives is going to tempt a lot of IT departments out there; the ability to get 4-way server performance at much lower prices is an advantage that can't be beat.

Despite AMD's lead in getting dual core server/workstation CPUs out to market, Intel has very little reason to worry from a market penetration standpoint. We've seen that even with a multi-year performance advantage, it is very tough for AMD to steal any significant business away from Intel, and we expect that the same will continue to be the case with the dual core Opteron. It's unfortunate for AMD that all of their hard work will amount to very little compared to what Intel is able to ship, but that has always been reality when it comes to the AMD/Intel competition.

Duel of the Titans: Opteron vs. Xeon
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030422/opteron-28.html#conclusion_linux_servers_smile_and_worksta tions_worry
In the extensive benchmark tests under Linux Enterprise Server 8 (32-bit as well as 64-bit), the AMD Opteron made a good impression. Especially in the server disciplines, the benchmarks (MySQL, Whetstone, ARC 2D, NPB, etc.) show quite clearly that the Dual Opteron puts the Dual Xeon in its place.

last but not least - My Personal Favorite!
Intel sponsored an event and AMD won the first place
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Intel-sponsored-an-event-and-AMD-won-the-first-place-1250.shtml
Certainly Murphy’s Laws don’t make any reference to an event like the one that took place two days ago within the Computer Trade Show, organized in Birmingham.

The event was sponsored among others, by Intel and Microsoft, but it’s important to keep in mind the chip producer’s name.

The organizers of the Computer Trade Show chose the easy way. They assigned the Intel representatives to present the awards, and the AMD representatives were invited to receive the prize...for the best CPU producer of the year.

Intel, who was master of ceremonies during the entire event, had to acknowledge the defeat, but didn’t take the fair-play too far by “personally” presenting the award to AMD, its rival.

Intel representatives did their job and presented the awards until…the one for AMD, when they left the scene. Any other comments are useless.

and that's all I have to say about that. :D :D :D

[sharonbn]

Oh I'm sure you are correct in the above ..... actually what I meant was .... because of the assassination it turned many of us towards trying to understand why it had happened and to become much more aware of the right-wing extremists amongst us...
Apperently not enough, as both Bibi and now Sharon endure life threats from the same extremists that gave us Yigal Amir and Baruch Hagever...


I'm convinced that most of the coldness and hardening towards the settlers is because of these radicals amongst them (which really isn't fair... but as Leon says... what goes around comes around)
They can only blame themselves for it.


BTW ... make sure you keep your AMD well ventilated and cool .... summer is a comin and it's going to be a long hot one this year ;)
Have mo fear, That's why I have 90nm Winchester. and don't even get me started on the whole Intel prescott thermal fiasco....

[KettleWhistle]

I don't need to look .... some of them were mine KW... Well, how many more of "yours'" blood do need on your hands? I mean, maybe you could just tell us the number of gallons or liters, and I'll just send you some?

BTW, I do not spread hatred, and all of those people who were Jews are "mine."

[Reffo]

The Clinton plan spoke about return to 67 green line border, not partition plan borders. and its the right and only fiseable solution imo.

Thanks, I agree but I never said otherwise you just misunderstood what I was trying o say to Ophra. What I was saying to her was that in that thread, Takeo posted a message which led me to understand that in his opinion Israel should have returned to the partition borders after their 1948 victory. he also wanted Israel to accept the return of all the Palestinians who fled.
Sharonbn

I just re-read these posts and realised that I don't totally agree with you. Specifically, I have concerns with your suggestion that: "and its the right and only fiseable solution imo." Well, at the end of the day it will be up to the Israelis and the Israeli government but if I had my way, I would bargain for a suitable border adjustment to widen the old narrow "waist" of the 1967 borders. As you know, that border was only a few kilometres wide right where Israel had/has it's most populated areas and it was not easily defensible nor was it secure. Also, people did get killed by sniper fire from across the border from time to time. Anyway, that's my opinion.

[Reffo]

Sorry... you misunderstood me . I didn't mean to refer that you were struggling with Takeo... I meant the political split within the country . I most certainly do NOT agree that Israel.... "" should have withdrawn to it's 1948 UN allocated partition borders and it should have allowed the return of all the Palestinian refugees. ""....... nobody in their right mind could .In that case, I think your position is a lot closer to mine than to Takeo's. I am happy to let it rest at that.

[Mediocrates]

FWIW P4's have reached the end of their design path. They have reached the point where they literally cannot absorb any more power without melting and their thermal inefficiency has placed them on that point in the power curve where additional speed and power will actually drop off in the form of excess heat. Since switch frequency is more or less constant as the 'front edge' of the power wave stacks up on each switch you get power and heat leakage across the gap. In P4's, for you solid state physicists out there you're starting to see the equivalent of cross-talk as the switch density causes this power bleed to force charges over their gaps and all the gaps around them. P4s actually have embedded ECC logic to counter this, which of course sucks up more power causing more heat.

[Ophra]

Apperently not enough, as both Bibi and now Sharon endure life threats from the same extremists that gave us Yigal Amir and Baruch Hagever...

Yup .... they are at it again :( :(

Extremists call for prayers for Sharon's death: report

JERUSALEM (AFP) - Right-wing extremists opposed to the government's impending withdrawal from the occupied Gaza Strip are calling for prayers for the death of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, an Israeli newspaper said.

Flyers urging Jewish faithful to pray for the premier's end have been handed out during recent anti-disengagement rallies, the liberal Haaretz daily said.

The pamphlets quote ultra-Orthodox and nationalist rabbis who have castigated Sharon for his decision to dismantle all 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza and four outposts in the West Bank.

Among those quoted was Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual mentor of Israel's ultra-Orthodox Shas party, who repeated his statement made weeks ago during a sermon that: "God should give Sharon a blow from which he will not get up".

At the time, the rabbi denied he wanted Sharon dead and said his words had been misinterpreted.

Rabbi Yosef Dayan from the Jewish settlement of Psagot, near Ramallah in the West Bank, provoked an outcry in September by saying he wanted the prime minister dead for plotting the unilateral disengagement.

Sharon has received multiple death threats over the prospective Gaza pullout, set to begin in July or August, putting Israeli police and intelligence agents on high alert and seeing the prime minister's personal security detail stepped up.

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050503/wl_mideast_afp/mideastsettlerssharon_050503075600

[Mediocrates]

Yup .... they are at it again :( :(

Extremists call for prayers for Sharon's death: report

JERUSALEM (AFP) - Right-wing extremists opposed to the government's impending withdrawal from the occupied Gaza Strip are calling for prayers for the death of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, an Israeli newspaper said.

Flyers urging Jewish faithful to pray for the premier's end have been handed out during recent anti-disengagement rallies, the liberal Haaretz daily said.

The pamphlets quote ultra-Orthodox and nationalist rabbis who have castigated Sharon for his decision to dismantle all 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza and four outposts in the West Bank.

Among those quoted was Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual mentor of Israel's ultra-Orthodox Shas party, who repeated his statement made weeks ago during a sermon that: "God should give Sharon a blow from which he will not get up".

At the time, the rabbi denied he wanted Sharon dead and said his words had been misinterpreted.

Rabbi Yosef Dayan from the Jewish settlement of Psagot, near Ramallah in the West Bank, provoked an outcry in September by saying he wanted the prime minister dead for plotting the unilateral disengagement.

Sharon has received multiple death threats over the prospective Gaza pullout, set to begin in July or August, putting Israeli police and intelligence agents on high alert and seeing the prime minister's personal security detail stepped up.

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050503/wl_mideast_afp/mideastsettlerssharon_050503075600


As someone who is subjected to the monkey screeches of far right wing nutcases in America who regularly call for God to smite this that and the other one slightly to the left of Cotton Mather I have to say I am unimpressed with the apparent offence you take at a free press and the right of free speech and assembly. You didn't actually expect them to take this laying down, did you? Are you that dull?

[sharonbn]

funny, I never thought death threats can come under free speech category....

[Mediocrates]

Yeah they do, kind of.

[sharonbn]

well in Israel it is a criminal offense

[Ophra]

well in Israel it is a criminal offense

..... as is desecration of our nation's heroes graves and/or memorials ;)

[Gilgamesh]

..... as is desecration of our nation's heroes graves and/or memorials ;)
Technicly, you are right, however, there is no equall enforcement of the law.
There are quite a few anti semetic activity and graphity in Russian by Russian gentiles who emigrated to Israel with false papers or abused the Aliya law in other fasioned. They are a minority which the police fails to handle with.
See this (http://www.pogrom.org.il/heb_articles.php?cat_id=1)

Also, there is wide spread of Jew hatered among Arabs which (along with many others laws) the police and legal system choose to ignore. De facto, Arabs got more rights then Jews. they are free to incite to violance, take part in violance, anti semetism and wide spread theft and get away with it due to "system over load" or different "political priorities" such as "preventing riots".

Idiotic.

[Ophra]

Actually I was referring to KW boasting on this forum to having desecrated Rabin's memorial Gilgamesh.... are you aware of that ??? ... he also said he was going to bring busloads of Russian/Americans to repeat the performance.
Nothing but nothing has made me madder for a long time .

[Mediocrates]

Yeah I'm very familiar with people who put symbols above other people.

[Gilgamesh]

Actually I was referring to KW boasting on this forum to having desecrated Rabin's memorial Gilgamesh.... are you aware of that ??? ... he also said he was going to bring busloads of Russian/Americans to repeat the performance.
Nothing but nothing has made me madder for a long time .

I wasn't aware of that declaration by KW.
I have little appretiation myself for Rabin's personality worship so common among the far left in Israel. I still consider him to be one of Israel's worst PM.
From there, to desecrating his grave there is a very long march. Israel offeres full freedom of worship, and that includes the far left.

KW has simply used common provocation to inflame you, and you got hooked on it. Good for him, he made you expose one of the less rational parts of yours.

[KettleWhistle]

Actually I was referring to KW boasting on this forum to having desecrated Rabin's memorial Gilgamesh.... are you aware of that ??? ... he also said he was going to bring busloads of Russian/Americans to repeat the performance.
Nothing but nothing has made me madder for a long time .

You are liar. I have never said anything about any Russian-Americans. I don't even know any.

[KettleWhistle]

I wasn't aware of that declaration by KW.
I have little appretiation myself for Rabin's personality worship so common among the far left in Israel. I still consider him to be one of Israel's worst PM.
From there, to desecrating his grave there is a very long march. Israel offeres full freedom of worship, and that includes the far left.

Gilgamesh,

A memorial (of a traitor) isn't a grave. Worship they may, but his memorial being on Mt. Herzl is a desecration to the place that contains among other thingsgraves of the Altalena massacre victims. Let's not forget that those were the people shot by Rabin and his cohorts in cold blood in order to grab on to the political power in Israel.

[Ophra]

I wasn't aware of that declaration by KW.
I have little appretiation myself for Rabin's personality worship so common among the far left in Israel. I still consider him to be one of Israel's worst PM.
From there, to desecrating his grave there is a very long march. Israel offeres full freedom of worship, and that includes the far left.

KW has simply used common provocation to inflame you, and you got hooked on it. Good for him, he made you expose one of the less rational parts of yours.

HA !!
You just lost any respect I had for you .

[Gilgamesh]

HA !!
You just lost any respect I had for you .

I am an old dog in this place, had you been reading older post of mine, you'd know my opinions are all casted with in the hardest steal. I am a real old fasioned secular non-atheist Zionist. Sorry to break any of your former preceptions.

[KettleWhistle]

funny, I never thought death threats can come under free speech category....

There are realistic death threats, and then there is just harmless b_i_tching. And pretty much every politician is under some sort of threat. Additionally, saying something along the lines of "I pray the bastard gets shot" isn't a death threat, and using laws to harrass people who may say something like that is nothing short of abuse.

[sharonbn]

we'll talk again after the (hopefully unsuccessful) assasination attempt of Sharon

[Mediocrates]

The terrorists who murdered the Tourism minister, did they announce their intentions first?

[KettleWhistle]

we'll talk again after the (hopefully unsuccessful) assasination attempt of Sharon

And so what if a sleazy politician gets shot or killed? Why would you care, pray tell? I couldn't stand Bill Clinton when he was a President. I wouldn't condone shooting him, but I couldn't care less if someone did. And I don't think anyone would've set up memorials, monuments, or bring flowers to his grave. Not even people who worshipped him.

And I feel I have to state again, that every noticalbe politician is constantly under threat. Harrasing people for wishing death on someone, or for sending hate mail to public officials, as opposed to private individuals, is nothing short of abuse of government's power.

[Gilgamesh]

we'll talk again after the (hopefully unsuccessful) assasination attempt of Sharon

There will be no assasination attempt. Health crisis is far more a greater danger for Sharon. Sharon is already ill. He is ill for years.

[Ophra]

I am an old dog in this place, had you been reading older post of mine, you'd know my opinions are all casted with in the hardest steal. I am a real old fasioned secular non-atheist Zionist. Sorry to break any of your former preceptions.

I fail to see what the above has to do with anything. I have no former "preceptions".... what does breaking our Laws have to do with your seniority on here ??

I am a real old fashioned secular atheist Israeli . So ?

What does our politics and religion have to do with morality Gilgamesh ????

The Law is the Law .

Respect is respect .

If we all started to assassinate those whose politics we disagree with .... or desecrate the graves of those same politicians ... where would we end up Gilgamesh ????
Where will we end up ??
What has happened to the core values this country was built on ???

Left or right ... I don't care ... it's Ben Adam with me Gilgamesh... and for me KW is a criminal... anywhich way you put it.

[KettleWhistle]

So it's ok, for Rabin to break the Law, and bring a terrorist to Israel, resulting in thousands of deaths, but it isn't OK for people to make a political statement... OK, that clarified it.:rolleyes:

I'm a criminal... lol. May I remind you that unlike Rabin I never shot anyone, and didn't result in murder of thousands of Jews. Unlike you, I don't have the blood of these people on my hands, and unlike you, I am not spreading hatred of settlers, and unlike you I am not cheering when Jews are hurt.

[Ophra]

I am not spreading hatred of settlers ..... I am telling the truth about our extremists.... backed up by facts.
Unlike you ..... who spreads hatred without facts ;)
Must be tough not belonging anywhere KW ........ why was it you didn't do your Army service again ??? :D

[KettleWhistle]

I am not spreading hatred of settlers ..... I am telling the truth about our extremists.... backed up by facts.
Rrrrrrrrrrright! So stereotyping people, spreading lies, and being openly hateful towards religious Jews isn't spreading hatred? Ooooo-kay.:rolleyes:


Must be tough not belonging anywhere KW .......:rolleyes:


. why was it you didn't do your Army service again ??? I was a political prisoner in Cuba.

[Gilgamesh]

I fail to see what the above has to do with anything. I have no former "preceptions".... what does breaking our Laws have to do with your seniority on here ?? Had I ever condoned breaking the laws or demaging other people religious symbols, such as Rabin's shrine?


I am a real old fashioned secular atheist Israeli . So I've noticed.


What does our politics and religion have to do with morality Gilgamesh ???? hmmm.... everything !? :rolleyes:


If we all started to assassinate those whose politics we disagree with .... or desecrate the graves of those same politicians ... where would we end up Gilgamesh ???? In a communist state I persume!

Although I have huge contempt for Rabin, I never called upon assinating desecrating or anything other then his impichment in democratic ways.


What has happened to the core values this country was built on ??? Consumed by cynicism and potpourri of borrowed ideas taken from other cultures, perverted by ignorance and carelessness. The youth is without a leadership or good role models, the result is what you see.


Left or right ... I don't care ... it's Ben Adam with me Gilgamesh... and for me KW is a criminal... anywhich way you put it. KW, is a child with childish extrems and exagurations. he will learn. KW just likes to poke and inflame you and you supplay the goods better then anybody else.

A better word for Ben-Adam is a mentch. That Yiddish word better describes your wish. I try hard to be a mentch, I can't help it I was brought up that way.

[KettleWhistle]

Now you are being ridiculous. Ophie gets "inflamed" at anyone who disagrees with her or belongs to a different social group. You should read some of her material where she reffers to Jews as Russians, uses other ethnic slurs, says that opinions of olim do not matter when they disagree with her, calls 400,000 settlers "Jewish terrorists" or something along these lines. Regarding Rabin, when the bastard was shot, there was a celebration in the Jewish community where I was at the time. I was shocked that Israelis were in any way unhappy about this criminal's untimely demise.

[Gilgamesh]

Now you are being ridiculous. Ophie gets "inflamed" at anyone who disagrees with her or belongs to a different social group. You are right, it is so with any light minded people. I don't suppose you wish you be counted among them, are you?


You should read some of her material where she reffers to Jews as Russians, uses other ethnic slurs, says that opinions of olim do not matter when they disagree with her, calls 400,000 settlers "Jewish terrorists" or something along these lines. It's only a proof that Ophra isn't very strong upstrairs. Why sould we abuse her disablity when she already fairly challanged?


Regarding Rabin, when the bastard was shot, there was a celebration in the Jewish community where I was at the time. I was shocked that Israelis were in any way unhappy about this criminal's untimely demise. I never liked Rabin and quite hated his policies and his general manner. Political violance was the begining of our doom. It will be a folly to repeat it. Rabin was murderusly wrong, but not quite a tyrant. There was no justification for the assination.

[Mediocrates]

Of course there wasn't. But neither is every protest an excuse to invoke martial law either. You'd think from talking with Oprah that closing your felafel stand on Shabbat is a reason to get tossed in jail as a matter of state security. If Israeli society is really that fragile then 8000 Gazan farmers is the beginning of the end. If they ever had to stand up to real social dislocation and protest there would be tanks in the streets and it would be a replay of the fall of the Shah. At least that's what they would have you believe. Me? I always thought they were a little tougher and a little more rational than that. Maybe their brains are baked from the sun - I send you hats and sunblock. Don't forget to hydrate !!!

[Ophra]

Had I ever condoned breaking the laws or demaging other people religious symbols, such as Rabin's shrine?

So I've noticed.

hmmm.... everything !? :rolleyes:

In a communist state I persume!

Although I have huge contempt for Rabin, I never called upon assinating desecrating or anything other then his impichment in democratic ways.

Consumed by cynicism and potpourri of borrowed ideas taken from other cultures, perverted by ignorance and carelessness. The youth is without a leadership or good role models, the result is what you see.

KW, is a child with childish extrems and exagurations. he will learn. KW just likes to poke and inflame you and you supplay the goods better then anybody else.

A better word for Ben-Adam is a mentch. That Yiddish word better describes your wish. I try hard to be a mentch, I can't help it I was brought up that way.

I was brought up that way to...... only Yiddish I've never heard.... kinda says it all don't you think .

[Ophra]

Now you are being ridiculous. Ophie gets "inflamed" at anyone who disagrees with her or belongs to a different social group. You should read some of her material where she reffers to Jews as Russians, uses other ethnic slurs, says that opinions of olim do not matter when they disagree with her, calls 400,000 settlers "Jewish terrorists" or something along these lines. Regarding Rabin, when the bastard was shot, there was a celebration in the Jewish community where I was at the time. I was shocked that Israelis were in any way unhappy about this criminal's untimely demise.

:rolleyes: Whatever KW ....... they taught you well in Cuba I see ;)

"" Regarding Rabin, when the bastard was shot, there was a celebration in the Jewish community where I was at the time "" ...... see !! ... and you wonder why I don't like being called Jewish ... ???????

Now you know different KW.... the majority of Israelies loved the man ... even Sharon did .
His assassination has changed us all forever.... it's not about Left and Right anymore KW... it's about us and them .

[sharonbn]

OK I'm glad everyone's got a chance to air their frustrations,
This thread is now closed.