There more ethnic Russian in Israel than Jews in Russia

[Toga]

and proportionaly it is not even a comparison!

"The Encyclopedia Columbia provides a 1995 estimate of the Russian population at 149.9 million. According to the report published by Tel Aviv University, in 1998, the Jewish population of Russia numbered 470,000 and was diminishing by 40,000 people a year due to emigration and declining birth rates. In other words, less than one thirtieth of one percent of all Russian citizens are Jewish. Do Russian patriots have a reason to be concerned?"

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/yashiko/FromRussiaWithHatred_eng.html

However, according to an ethnic Russian poster living in America his country's ills were caused by Jews.

[KettleWhistle]

WTF are you rambling on about Toga? Russian Jews are NOT Russians. We are a separate ethnic group and have no relation to ethnic Russians. None whatsoever.

[Toga]

WTF are you rambling on about Toga? Russian Jews are NOT Russians. We are a separate ethnic group and have no relation to ethnic Russians. None whatsoever.

I agree.

What is your point?

[KettleWhistle]

That whoever says that there are more Russians in Israel than there are Jews in Russia thinks that Jews who are from Russia are Russians. How's that for riddle?

[Toga]

That whoever says that there are more Russians in Israel than there are Jews in Russia thinks that Jews who are from Russia are Russians. How's that for riddle?

The Jews from Russia are Jewish not ethnically Russian.

I was talking about the ethnic Russians in Israel. Please rest assured I know the difference.According to some estimates there are approximately 300K-400K ethnic Russians living in Israel. In other words the number of ethnic Russians in Israel exceeds the number of Jews in Russia. Statistically, the Jews in Russia represent an insignificant number or 1/30 of the population while 350K ethnic Russians in Israel represent at least 6% of the Israel's population if not more. There is a great irony in that. Jews have lived in Russia for centuries. Yet, the Jewish community is tiny while the ethnic Russians have hardly lived in Israel for over 15 years. Yet, the ethnically Russian community in Israel is big.

However, again the post is not about that. My point was that despite an insignicant number that Jews represent in Russia the ethnically Russian man who posts on this forum still blames the Jews for all the ills in Russia.

This is not very surprising as there some Poles who believe that Jews control the Polish government despite the fact that there are only 5000 Jews living in Poland.

[KettleWhistle]

I just couldn't care less about whatever the Russians or the Poles are rambling. Not my problem.

[Pushtak21]

One must remember that many Russian jews were ethnically cleansed with the slavics..

the remaining tried to keep it the same, but of course, it turned out that we had made the J.G.D (Jewish Genetic Desease) in the Moldova/Ukraine and Balkan nation that was hurting us....
we wanted to not assimilate so in the 300 year old time clock, we married our Relatives and created alot of problems in modern day..

Always good for a Ukrainian boy to find a nice morrocan chick....and the other way around...

But Many Russians however, from the former CIS are mixed...i recall a russian from Uzbekistan...jewish..the dude looked chinese for sakes..

than the Azerbijians looked very Perisan..
and the Ukrainains looked very....slavs...

its a big coutnry

[KettleWhistle]

the remaining tried to keep it the same, but of course, it turned out that we had made the J.G.D (Jewish Genetic Desease) in the Moldova/Ukraine and Balkan nation that was hurting us....
we wanted to not assimilate so in the 300 year old time clock, we married our Relatives and created alot of problems in modern day..
What the hell are on about? There was no marriage within the families. The yentas made sure of that. The only "perverse" thing (by today's standards) was the practice of marrying boys in their early teens, around 13-15 years old, to women in their late teens to early twenties. That was done mostly for the health reasons, as young girls who could marry according to the Jewish law weren't developed enough to give birth, but teenage boys are biologically ready to be fathers.

There is a belief that this difference in developmental aging is the reason women generally live longer than men.

Always good for a Ukrainian boy to find a nice morrocan chick....and the other way around...
Now you got it! :cool:

[Pushtak21]

What the hell are on about? There was no marriage within the families. The yentas made sure of that. The only "perverse" thing (by today's standards) was the practice of marrying boys in their early teens, around 13-15 years old, to women in their late teens to early twenties. That was done mostly for the health reasons, as young girls who could marry according to the Jewish law weren't developed enough to give birth, but teenage boys are biologically ready to be fathers.

There is a belief that this difference in developmental aging is the reason women generally live longer than men.

No!
J.G.D occurs when you try to assimilate too much, and what occurs is that lets say you marry someone in the 1600's...and then in the 1800's the offspring marry each other. thats when J.G.D kicks in...


Now you got it! :cool:

Just stay away from those harry morrocan girls... :)

[KettleWhistle]

No!
J.G.D occurs when you try to assimilate too much, and what occurs is that lets say you marry someone in the 1600's...and then in the 1800's the offspring marry each other. thats when J.G.D kicks in...

What Jewish Genetic Disease? Tay-Sachs? Cystic Fibrosis?

Anyway, any ethnic group has some genetic diseases. There are about 4,000 of them that had been characterized. But Jews never practiced inbreeding, and genetic diseases are not the same thing as defects that are due inbreeding. And they can be easily avoided with a rather simple and inexpensive genomic screening.

[Pushtak21]

What Jewish Genetic Disease? Tay-Sachs? Cystic Fibrosis?

Anyway, any ethnic group has some genetic diseases. There are about 4,000 of them that had been characterized. But Jews never practiced inbreeding, and genetic diseases are not the same thing as defects that are due inbreeding. And they can be easily avoided with a rather simple and inexpensive genomic screening.

http://www.mazornet.com/genetics/cystic_fibrosis.asp
read...

[Mil]

So what's the big deal of having ethnic Russians living in Israel?

[KettleWhistle]

Because they have their own country, and shouldn't flood ours. I wouldn't care if was just a few of them, but there are over hundred thousands Russians living in Israel. Plus, many of them are anti-Semites.

[Toga]

When a Jew marries outside the Jewish ethnicity/faith he/she tries to justify his/hers actions for which there is no excuse. The women are more privileged cause their offsprings remain Jewish.

If one wants to intermarry in the violation of the Torah one does not have to find excuses. So, you say bye to our tribe and that is it.

One has to know that the kids or their kids in search for an identity and it is very important to have an identity would have to search out a belief system and it will not be Judaism cause technically many of them will not be Jewish. For the those who live in the Christian world the answer is clear: it will be a faith associated with Jesus.

[christian girl]

I have a question. What race do Jews consider themselves to be of? Do they consider "Jewish" a race? Or do they consider themselves to be white or Arabic or whatever they happen to be? I know Jews are classified under Caucasian here in the US, but are they actually white people? What would you say the racial breakdown is of Jews worldwide? I am just kind of interested because my brother is a white nationalist who insists Jews can never be white and are the main enemy of Americans of European descent and my sister disagrees with his views. So I just wanted to hear the Jewish perspective on this to maybe settle their dispute. This is not a troll post but a serious question because I want to hear your perspective and I don't know any other Jewish forums.

[KettleWhistle]

First off, we, Jews, are not a race of our own. Jews are a nation composed mainly of people of ethnic Hebrew descent, and a relatively small number of people of various ethnic backgrounds who converted to Judaism.

Regarding so-called racial background, we are a Semitic people, like the Arabs. Generally, Jews have most gentic similarity to Kurds and Near-Eastern Arabs. While those Jews who are of Hebrew descent are Caucasian, we are not stereotypical "white people," especially in the U.S., where "white" is usually equated with WASP. Obviously, those of other ethnic backgrounds, who converted to Judaism, are not necessarily Caucasian.

As a side note, the term "Caucasian" comes from ethnic/antropologic studies done in the beginning of the last century. In an attempt to classify people, some researcher drew down general characteristics of several "races," and when evaluating those, he decided that the appreance of people from Caucasus Mointains region of Russian Empire/Soviet Union had most stereotypical "white" features. Ironically, the Russians consider people from that region to be less "white" than they are, and these people are often being slurred as "blacks."

[goliath]

It exist on ly one race : the human race...
Scientist were wrong during more of a century in characterizing the men in several "race " .
Concerning the Jews , we now the oririgin of our ethnic group ,and the respect of our religion has made for centuries ,our group was stable , the only untrusion we had was rape of women in Poland and Russia, and we had some of our people who heritated of blue eye and blond hair by that kind mean, tolerated by the authorities of the respective countries....
Even Russian (refering to one of the former post ..) have many ethnic group , as every large country whom the borders were "made" by war or alliance and so on ...
We 've lost our country , and we have it again ,but our ethnic group is now divided , and our friend Hitler and his crew , did so well ,we have to reuninificate morally and phisically our ethnic group,which is not an easy task...

[golani]

You have Jews of every colour

White skinned jews in Western Europe (with exceptions),eastern europe,Russia

Darker skinned jews from Mediteranean regions living in Israel


Black skinned jews from Etiophia,southern india
Chinese like Jews from boukhara or Burma

I was in Israel one week ago
I saw all this marvellous mixture,all these beautiful kids talking to each other
I told myself :what a beautiful people!!! :D

[abrodski]

You touched quite a few complicated topics.

First of all...a word Jew has 2 meanings-someone who's ethnically jewish or someone who belongs to Judaism.Most Jews believe in Judaism,but you can find a Gentile Judaism believer or non-jewish Jew (say Christian Jew).
In my personal opinion someone jewish is someone who has jewish blood only.Religion doesn't count.
Just because some radical clerics of Judaism rejected Jesus and torched and murdered him doesn't mean all the Jews are accountable or that all the Jews must be anti-Christian.I personally have a jewish mother and I'm not really a Christian (never got baptized-not yet anyway).Though I have a higher simpathy and respect to a Christian Church than to Judaism
Most Jews would say otherwise...

Racially speaking...here it's simple-Jews belong to a semitic subrace of a broader Caucasian (White) race.
Though in the US,sometimes people refer to White person as to someone who has European roots...In my opinion it's a political statement aimed to target non-european Whites (incl the Jews)...to find explanation for antisemitism and so forth.
Technically there's no european race in nature.
Or White race if you will...There's a Caucasian race ONLY.If you want to call it White-so be it...name is not an issue here.Europeans are migrants from other places,so noone is really a European...Now some descendants of those who tens of 1000's years ago migrated to Europe distinguish themselves from non-european Caucasians.

As for WNs...they're NeoNazis basically...give or take.
They want to exterminate the Jews ,enslave or deport people of a color and to establish a dictatorship kinda state with a totalitarian regime...
Where you would need to ask your gov-t whom you can sleep with,when and in what position-otherwise you'd jailed or killed.Basically they want to replay what happened in Germany in 1930's in the US in 21st century-ie-to get to power using democratic means and then to cancel democracy alltogether.
As long as the Jews control most of the mass media in the US-it seems to me an unlikely story.Plus there're too many non-Caucasians in the US already to even start talking about White only state (unless they want to devide the US into few separate countries)

[abrodski]

as for jewish "race" thing...that term is usually used by 2 categories of people
1) Overly proud about nothing Jews who think Jews are the center of the Universe ,Or LaGoim (Light for the Gentiles),God's chosen people,etc.
2)Antisemites who want to separate Jews from others in order to build a ground for seeding hatred against the Jews.

In my opinion those 2 categories of people deserve each other...and the world would be a much better place without those 2.

[Visitor23]

Is it true that your mother has to be of Jewish descent in order for you to be considered Jewish? Like for example, my Dad's mother is 100% Jewish, so my Dad is Jewish, but I can't be Jewish because mym Mom is 100% non-Jewish?

[KettleWhistle]

It's subjective. In Torah all descent goes by father's line. But if you take the ethnocentric view of it, which is a more natural and appropriate one, then it would make you part-Jewish. Just like being part-Irish, or part-Italian.

[Visitor23]

Thanks for clarifying that. That's generally the way I looked at it. :)

[Mediocrates]

Is it true that your mother has to be of Jewish descent in order for you to be considered Jewish? Like for example, my Dad's mother is 100% Jewish, so my Dad is Jewish, but I can't be Jewish because mym Mom is 100% non-Jewish?


That is an accurate statement for Conservative (Masorti) and Orthodox Judaism. It is not accurate for Reform Judaism.

[Toga]

Is it true that your mother has to be of Jewish descent in order for you to be considered Jewish? Like for example, my Dad's mother is 100% Jewish, so my Dad is Jewish, but I can't be Jewish because mym Mom is 100% non-Jewish?


You are not Jewish. Fractional Jews don't exist. There is not such thing as being "part Jewish". Just as a woman cannot be 10%, 25%, 50% pregnant 10%, 25%, 50% Jews do not exist. You can only be all Jewish or not at all. There will be many people who will volunteer their opinion on the subject based on their personal beliefs but it would not be accurate. This website should answer your question about your Jewishness:

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

The Reform movement does acknowledge "part Jews" as Jews and it works in some individual cases but overall "part-Jews" marry the non-Jews and eventually disappear from the Jewish ranks. The statistical data speaks for itself.

[Mediocrates]

Refrom acknowledges patriarchal lineage.

[minusthejihad]

Refrom acknowledges patriarchal lineage.

Hells yes!

[Visitor23]

Thanks Toga for that info. I have heard this view from some of my Jewish relatives. I never considered myself to be Jewish nor strived to be one, I simply respect the values and cultures of all my ancestors with no exceptions, so I'm comfortable being part-Jewish regardless of what some orthodox or ultra-orthodox Jews believe.

I am familiar with the Bible, an essential part of which is the Torah. If we were to subsribe to the beliefs of Orthodox Jews, which in my opinion are fully in line with the original scripture, isn't it also true then that the modern state of Israel is in fact not Jewish? I.e. in the scripture it says that the state of Israel would be given to Jews only after their Messiah comes, which as we all very well know hasn't happened yet. I'm just trying to emphasize that some some views of the Orthodox Jews are not fully in line with the modern realities :)

[Mira]

If we were to subsribe to the beliefs of Orthodox Jews, which in my opinion are fully in line with the original scripture, isn't it also true then that the modern state of Israel is in fact not Jewish?

That's correct. The modern secular state of Israel is not a "Jewish State," as some people sometimes say. It is a state for the Jewish People.

[Mediocrates]

I.e. in the scripture it says that the state of Israel would be given to Jews only after their Messiah comes, which as we all very well know hasn't happened yet. I'm just trying to emphasize that some some views of the Orthodox Jews are not fully in line with the modern realities :)


The Torah doesn't say that though. Clearly at the end of the story of Moses, the Jewish people's entrance into the Promised Land was not meant to be temporary. There are a bunch of cults who maintain that Israel (today) cannot exist w/o the Messiah but they are fringe element and most of us see no justification or basis in their claims.

[Toga]

What we don't need is the watered down Jews who in their quest for recognition will blame us for not accepting them as Jews. They should not blame us as we don't have a say in the matter. We follow the teachings of the torah. Again, the reform movement statistical data speaks for itself. Most products of intermarried relationships marry the non-Jews and disappear from the Jewish ranks. The reform movement band-aid is temporary. It does not work. It is just a fact. As people still search for a definite identity living within the Christian majority they turn to Christianity. A non-Jewish woman can produce good, decent, wonderful children, however, since she cannot pass on a Jewish soul she cannot produce the Jewish children.

[Toga]

The Torah doesn't say that though. Clearly at the end of the story of Moses, the Jewish people's entrance into the Promised Land was not meant to be temporary. There are a bunch of cults who maintain that Israel (today) cannot exist w/o the Messiah but they are fringe element and most of us see no justification or basis in their claims.

This is very typical. When you deny a non-Jew who has a Jewish father the Jewish recognition they become so angry that they will try to bring down the House of Israel. We don't bother them, we don't latch on to them or their beliefs. We don't try to prove anything to them. We respect them and their faith but we are just asking them to leave us alone in peace with their beliefs. Yet, they come to us with an identification that has no basis in our teachings. They also demand of us to be treated in one fashion or another and if they don't like it they become very hostile. We have the responsibility to treat them in a civil manner but we don't have to define them as Jews as they are not Jews.

[Visitor23]

"This is very typical. When you deny a non-Jew who has a Jewish father the Jewish recognition they become so angry that they will try to bring down the House of Israel. We don't bother them, we don't latch on to them or their beliefs. We don't try to prove anything to them. We respect them and their faith but we are just asking them to leave us alone in peace with their beliefs. Yet, they come to us with an identification that has no basis in our teachings. They also demand of us to be treated in one fashion or another and if they don't like it they become very hostile. We have the responsibility to treat them in a civil manner but we don't have to define them as Jews as they are not Jews."

Who exactly are "we" ? I take it you are not even Israeli citizen since you are in USA... As for being Jewish or not, it doesn't really make that much difference to me one way or the other, no need to bombard me with senseless exaggerations :) I live in a very good country(i.e. better than Israel), which doesn't require me to be of any blood to be considered of any kind of "preferred" ranks... And now I understand where the need for the reform came from. I think your views Toga are scaring many people away from Israel and from Jewish people in general, it's bad for economy, if you know what I mean... :D

[Toga]

"This is very typical. When you deny a non-Jew who has a Jewish father the Jewish recognition they become so angry that they will try to bring down the House of Israel. We don't bother them, we don't latch on to them or their beliefs. We don't try to prove anything to them. We respect them and their faith but we are just asking them to leave us alone in peace with their beliefs. Yet, they come to us with an identification that has no basis in our teachings. They also demand of us to be treated in one fashion or another and if they don't like it they become very hostile. We have the responsibility to treat them in a civil manner but we don't have to define them as Jews as they are not Jews."

Who exactly are "we" ? I take it you are not even Israeli citizen since you are in USA... As for being Jewish or not, it doesn't really make that much difference to me one way or the other, no need to bombard me with senseless exaggerations :) I live in a very good country(i.e. better than Israel), which doesn't require me to be of any blood to be considered of any kind of "preferred" ranks... And now I understand where the need for the reform came from. I think your views Toga are scaring many people away from Israel and from Jewish people in general, it's bad for economy, if you know what I mean... :D

What does Israel have to do with it? Why do you have to compare your country to Israel?

It is funny how quickly your kind becomes anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. Even though you are not Jewish because of one Jewish parent you can become Israeli in accordance with the Israeli Law of Return. As you said being Jewish or not is meaningless to you. That is a fundamental difference between us. It is not meaningless to us. It is not easy to be a Jew but most of us would not want to be anything else but Jewish.

Please learn what the essense of democracy is all about. Democracy does not mean that different people have to sleep in the same bed together if they don't want to. Democracy is freedom of choice. We sleep who we want to sleep with or associate who we want to associate with. In our case - it is the Jews. There is NO requirement for cohabitation with your kind. There is a requirement for civility.

..and by the way, the fact that I live in the USA or Brazil has no bearing on my Jewishness.

[Toga]

"This is very typical. When you deny a non-Jew who has a Jewish father the Jewish recognition they become so angry that they will try to bring down the House of Israel. We don't bother them, we don't latch on to them or their beliefs. We don't try to prove anything to them. We respect them and their faith but we are just asking them to leave us alone in peace with their beliefs. Yet, they come to us with an identification that has no basis in our teachings. They also demand of us to be treated in one fashion or another and if they don't like it they become very hostile. We have the responsibility to treat them in a civil manner but we don't have to define them as Jews as they are not Jews."

Who exactly are "we" ? I take it you are not even Israeli citizen since you are in USA... As for being Jewish or not, it doesn't really make that much difference to me one way or the other, no need to bombard me with senseless exaggerations :) I live in a very good country(i.e. better than Israel), which doesn't require me to be of any blood to be considered of any kind of "preferred" ranks... And now I understand where the need for the reform came from. I think your views Toga are scaring many people away from Israel and from Jewish people in general, it's bad for economy, if you know what I mean... :D

..and, by the way, as far as the economic value is concerned the Jews have survived the adversity for the last 2000 years. The Jews were kicked out of France, Spain, deported from Holland, Hungary and the rest of Europe right into the gas chambers of Poland. The Jews were precluded from landownership in Eastern Europe. Even today, Jordan has a law whereby selling a real property to a Jew is a capital offense. The economy is not a problem. If a Jews discovers a cure for cancer or AIDS please tell me that your kind will not use it. The problem is that Jews are hated because the Jews want to remain who they are - Jewish.

We have survived many empires and genocides and will continue to be Jewish long after your descendents will turn into the Hare Krishnas or Rajnishes.

[Visitor23]

Since you don't live in Israel and this is an Israel Forum, then you are not any more qualified to speak on this matter than I am(unless you can show me a certificate that proves that you are the most important Jew on the planet).
I think it's you who should learn the principles of Democracy and learn to respect other people's views and opinions. This World doesn't revolve around you and nobody is out there to get you...

Cheers

[Mediocrates]

I live in a very good country(i.e. better than Israel), which doesn't require me to be of any blood to be considered of any kind of "preferred" ranks...

You actually don't know what you're talking about since about 1 in 5 Israelis are not Jewish.


And now I understand where the need for the reform came from.

No not really you don't. It has more to do with what happened at the tail end of the Enlightenment in Europe at the end of the 18th Century.


I think your views Toga are scaring many people away from Israel and from Jewish people in general, it's bad for economy, if you know what I mean... :D

No need to ask vague rhetorical questions, state it plainly.

[Visitor23]

"You actually don't know what you're talking about since about 1 in 5 Israelis are not Jewish."

I guess after reading posts from certain members I was under a different impression, but I stand corrected. I think it's a common feature of a normal country these days.

"No not really you don't. It has more to do with what happened at the tail end of the Enlightenment in Europe at the end of the 18th Century. "

Well if you can provide a link to somewhere on this forum or elsewhere where I can read about it, then I'm sure it'll prove to be worth the read. Unfortunately history of Jewish people wasn't very well covered in the general works on European History that I've read so far.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/18-index.html

[Toga]

Since you don't live in Israel and this is an Israel Forum, then you are not any more qualified to speak on this matter than I am(unless you can show me a certificate that proves that you are the most important Jew on the planet).
I think it's you who should learn the principles of Democracy and learn to respect other people's views and opinions. This World doesn't revolve around you and nobody is out there to get you...

Cheers

Jews and Israel are inseparable. The Land of Israel is featured in every Jewish prayer which is something your kind is very ignorant about. We could only dream that the world does not revolve around Israel and Jews. Unfortunately, the 3rd largest press contingent is stationed in none other than the tiny Israel and 70% of all UN General Assembly resolutions are directed against the Jewish state, a country of only 6.7M citizens.

How many times do I need to tell you that Jews appreciate and respect the views and the opinions of other people but we do not have to buy it. Also, speaking of arrogance, can you ask the Christian missionaries to stay away from Jews? Please rest assured NO Jew in this world would ever try to seduce you to become Jewish.

[Toga]

"Unfortunately history of Jewish people wasn't very well covered in the general works on European History that I've read so far.

That is funny! The European Jewish history is just a portion of the Jewish history.

[Toga]

http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/18-index.html

It is incredible that even though they are ignorant they are always ready to be hateful of Israel.

[minusthejihad]

What we don't need is the watered down Jews who in their quest for recognition will blame us for not accepting them as Jews. They should not blame us as we don't have a say in the matter. We follow the teachings of the torah. Again, the reform movement statistical data speaks for itself. Most products of intermarried relationships marry the non-Jews and disappear from the Jewish ranks. The reform movement band-aid is temporary. It does not work. It is just a fact. As people still search for a definite identity living within the Christian majority they turn to Christianity. A non-Jewish woman can produce good, decent, wonderful children, however, since she cannot pass on a Jewish soul she cannot produce the Jewish children.

I guess Woody Allen's or Chompsky's Jewish Souls got snagged on the bubka on their way out if you know what I mean.

[minusthejihad]

This is very typical. When you deny a non-Jew who has a Jewish father the Jewish recognition they become so angry that they will try to bring down the House of Israel. We don't bother them, we don't latch on to them or their beliefs. We don't try to prove anything to them. We respect them and their faith but we are just asking them to leave us alone in peace with their beliefs. Yet, they come to us with an identification that has no basis in our teachings. They also demand of us to be treated in one fashion or another and if they don't like it they become very hostile. We have the responsibility to treat them in a civil manner but we don't have to define them as Jews as they are not Jews.

Who's we? Did you start a yahoo news group while you were gone Toga? Are Members Only jackets required?

[Toga]

Who's we? Did you start a yahoo news group while you were gone Toga? Are Members Only jackets required?

Just because you married a shiksa and your kid is NOT Jewish you don't have to be vicious.

[Toga]

I guess Woody Allen's or Chompsky's Jewish Souls got snagged on the bubka on their way out if you know what I mean.

Well...they are tormented, sick Jews. Unfortunately, we have those too.

[minusthejihad]

Just because you married a shiksa and your kid is NOT Jewish you don't have to be vicious.

I didn't know being SuperJew gave you the power to see the future! And by the way, my unborn kid is already Jewish no matter what! LOL!

[Toga]

I didn't know being SuperJew gave you the power to see the future! And by the way, my unborn kid is already Jewish no matter what! LOL!

Well, it does not hurt to fantacize as it does not cost you anything. Congratulations, you have acquired the trait of the ex-Iraqi Information Minister. When the American marines were approaching the hotel where he was giving his press-conference he was still distributing his lies based on the make-belief that Iraq was winning.

[minusthejihad]

Ok, you got the last word. Let it rest now.

[Toga]

Ok, you got the last word. Let it rest now.

If I rest or don't rest it does not matter. I have just returned from visiting my cousin who happens to be in the same situation. He has registered his kid at the Reform Temple, etc. etc. His wife is wonderful but she does not understand the Jewish traditions, the Jewish meshigaz or our attachment to Israel. It is all foreign to her. She understands Xmas, Easter, etc and not Yom Kippur or Passover. It is painful for him to acknowledge that his kid will not be Jewish but it is too late as niether his wife nor the kid have any intention of learning the Jewish traditions or converting to Judaism.

[determinism]

ok big question here...
if one looks at the arabs (semites as well right?) they seem to form a very homogenous ethnic group...all dark hair, dark eyes etc.
jewish people however are very diverse...blond, red, brown, black hair, varying eye colors...no really common features.
it seems there must have been quite a bit of mixing going on with the population of the various guest countries or not?
if this is the case how can one be so rigid on the definition of who is an ethnic jew and who isn't?

[KettleWhistle]

ok big question here...
if one looks at the arabs (semites as well right?) they seem to form a very homogenous ethnic group...all dark hair, dark eyes etc.
No, they aren't. There are even blond-ish Arabs. But there are also many that traditionally marry within the family, usually their first cousins, so many tribes do appear uniform.

In regards to Jews, most white-skinned/light-haired Jews and the darker-skinned/darker-haired North African and Sephardic populations have more genetic commonalities with each other than with the populations from their host countries.

[determinism]

Kettle,

well if one looks at reports or images from arabic countries the population looks very uniform (similar to mexico e.g).
if there was no mixing going on with the host populations then were do the diverse features in the jewish population come from?

[Mira]

Kettle,

well if one looks at reports or images from arabic countries the population looks very uniform (similar to mexico e.g).
if there was no mixing going on with the host populations then were do the diverse features in the jewish population come from?
"Arabs" don't have uniform features and either do Mexicans. Both are conquered peoples as were the Jews. There are blond, blue-eyed "Arabs" and "very dark skinned "Arabs," and everything in between. Palestinians are as diversified looking as the Jews if you exclude the Ethiopians and many Palestinians can pass very easily for Jews and vice versa, which is why Palestinians ave been sucessful in dressing up as Orthodox Jews to carry out suicide bombings in Israel. Armies from both Europe and Asia have conquered the ME with plenty of migration to and from the African nations at various points as well.

[minusthejihad]

Lebanese blonds aren't just good hash, they're pretty women too!

[KettleWhistle]

King David had reddish hair, green eyes, and freckles.

[KSO]

King David had reddish hair, green eyes, and freckles.
Wow, you are a militant atheist who believes in science, historians now doubt that King David or The unfied kingdom ever existed but you don't only know that he existed but what he looked like!

[KettleWhistle]

And you are wrong on all accounts. I'm not a "millitant atheist" since I don't try to force atheism on anyone. And just because King David is mentioned in the Tanah doesn't make it any sort of a religious dogma. Tanah has records of some historical events like any other people's mythology.

[Gilgamesh]

ok big question here...
if one looks at the arabs (semites as well right?) they seem to form a very homogenous ethnic group...all dark hair, dark eyes etc.
jewish people however are very diverse...blond, red, brown, black hair, varying eye colors...no really common features.
it seems there must have been quite a bit of mixing going on with the population of the various guest countries or not?
if this is the case how can one be so rigid on the definition of who is an ethnic jew and who isn't?

Judaism is ALSO a religion. There is no prohibition on marry parners of local or foreign race, as long as, the foreigner accept our customs and traditions (ie convert).

A thousand years ago, a Jewish trading community, estabilshed a thriving community in China. In few centuries, due to weak contact with the outside Jewish world, these Jews lost all ethnic carestaristics, and later on, lost all linkage to the rest of the Judaism. They became fully Chinese. Only documated Chinese blood lines, prove otherwise.

It is enough for us, to identify ourselves as direct decendents of the people of Judea. In any normal family, a son is not a clone of his father. So why should we be clones of our ancestors?

It the traditions and values the pass to us through the ages, these are the things that really count. The rest is Nazi rabbish.

[Mira]

Judaism is ALSO a religion. There is no prohibition on marry parners of local or foreign race, as long as, the foreigner accept our customs and traditions (ie convert).

A thousand years ago, a Jewish trading community, estabilshed a thriving community in China. In few centuries, due to weak contact with the outside Jewish world, these Jews lost all ethnic carestaristics, and later on, lost all linkage to the rest of the Judaism. They became fully Chinese. Only documated Chinese blood lines, prove otherwise.

It is enough for us, to identify ourselves as direct decendents of the people of Judea. In any normal family, a son is not a clone of his father. So why should we be clones of our ancestors?

It the traditions and values the pass to us through the ages, these are the things that really count. The rest is Nazi rabbish.


You fingered him good that time. :cool:

[determinism]

@Mira

You fingered him good that time.

had i not argued against the racial definition myself i would almost agree. LOL

"Arabs" don't have uniform features and either do Mexicans.

i spent the last 3 weeks in mexico...so please don't tell me that there is a significant proportion of the population with blue eyes and blond hair.
from my personal experience it seems the diversity of these features among jewish people is significantly higher.

There are blond, blue-eyed "Arabs" and "very dark skinned "Arabs," and everything in between. Palestinians are as diversified looking as the Jews if you exclude the Ethiopians and many Palestinians can pass very easily for Jews and vice versa, which is why Palestinians ave been sucessful in dressing up as Orthodox Jews to carry out suicide bombings in Israel. Armies from both Europe and Asia have conquered the ME with plenty of migration to and from the African nations at various points as well.

so there was considerable mixing going on between the populations? thus the concept of direct decent from a small group of hebrews 5000 years ago (thereby establishing a seperate race?) seems somewhat questionable.


@Gil

1. Judaism is ALSO a religion. There is no prohibition on marry parners of local or foreign race, as long as, the foreigner accept our customs and traditions (ie convert).

2. It is enough for us, to identify ourselves as direct decendents of the people of Judea. In any normal family, a son is not a clone of his father. So why should we be clones of our ancestors?

so which of the two is it? or does decendents refer only to the spiritual mindset?

[Mediocrates]

it's usually the racists who are obsessed with blood

[Mira]

@Mira
had i not argued against the racial definition myself i would almost agree. LOL

Came in at the end of this conversation so my bad. I still like what he said though.


i spent the last 3 weeks in mexico...so please don't tell me that there is a significant proportion of the population with blue eyes and blond hair.
from my personal experience it seems the diversity of these features among jewish people is significantly higher.

Your three weeks were useless then. I've spent much more time in Mexico than that. The indigenous culture mixed with the Spaniards (some of whom are blond) -, and in other Latin American countries, African salves. There is a legacy of racism in Mexico based on skin color because of all of this. Then you can add the later influx of other European immigrants and even middle easterners and you have a wide variation...


so there was considerable mixing going on between the populations? thus the concept of direct decent from a small group of hebrews 5000 years ago (thereby establishing a seperate race?) seems somewhat questionable.

When exactly do you think the mixing started? The right answer is around 5000 years ago. Studies have been done indicating that Jews (both of European and ME descent) share unique chromosones with other people in the ME. So yes, there is a link there and it probably has something to do with the way Jews were treated throughout time and our desire to maintain our heritage despite losing our physical nation. It really gets under my skin the way that Europeans today deny Jews a link to our Semitic heritage when the damn word "anti-Semitism" was coined in Europe as some sort of "scientific" euphemism for Jew hatred in the first place!!!!! So now after cursing us as a G-d foresaken people for almost two thousand years and walling us off in ghettos for our own protection, you want to say that we mixed with you so that we can feel some sort of insecurity about the link we have to our own heritage?

[Mira]

...one more thing...you don't get to make the rules concerning our identity! We make the rules! And to the extent that there are contradictions that have been created as a result of our difficult history, it is up to us to work them out. You have absolutely no say in the matter. You people have done enough! You infected the entire world with your racist disease.

[Toga]

Judaism is ALSO a religion. There is no prohibition on marry parners of local or foreign race, as long as, the foreigner accept our customs and traditions (ie convert).

A thousand years ago, a Jewish trading community, estabilshed a thriving community in China. In few centuries, due to weak contact with the outside Jewish world, these Jews lost all ethnic carestaristics, and later on, lost all linkage to the rest of the Judaism. They became fully Chinese. Only documated Chinese blood lines, prove otherwise.

It is enough for us, to identify ourselves as direct decendents of the people of Judea. In any normal family, a son is not a clone of his father. So why should we be clones of our ancestors?

It the traditions and values the pass to us through the ages, these are the things that really count. The rest is Nazi rabbish.

If a person properly converts prior to marriage then he/she is considered Jewish and it is not a mixed marriage.

Most non-Jews find it hard to understand that the reason the Jews are physically diverse is because unlike them or the way they are identified the Jews are not identified by blood, race or genetics. The reason they question the physical Jewish diversity is because they were told that Jews represent a monolilthic, united group with identifiable characterisitcs but when they look at us they see that we are physically different from one another. Therefore, they realize that they were fed nothing but lies about the Jews. The anti-Semites love to lump all Jews together.

How do you explain to the descendents of the Nazis, the descendents of the white European colonizers in Argentina, the descendents of the British criminals who were exiled to Australia or the descendents of the Walloons who persecuted the Blacks in Africa that a Black guy/girl from Ethiopia is the brother/sister of a blond/blue-eyed Jew from Detroit or Haifa?

They call us racists and all other derogatory names when in fact based how they identify themselves that is who they are.

They think they understand Jews when in reality they don't.

[Gilgamesh]

had i not argued against the racial definition myself i would almost agree. LOL Your attitude toward race is creepy.

Jews are still a race, as the majority of Jews have geneticly alot in common.
Had you been in Tel Aviv and I wouldn't know about it, you'd see how uniform we all look like. All blond people, get their hair color from a bottle. Blond Jews, or black Jews or Chinese Jews, are very rare. These process happen only on the fringes. Most Jews would marry other Jews (at least in Israel), not converts.

so there was considerable mixing going on between the populations? thus the concept of direct decent from a small group of hebrews 5000 years ago (thereby establishing a seperate race?) seems somewhat questionable. There maybe a lot of mixing in some communities, but not overall.

Mind you that we are very anciant. As a nation we read a write for 5,000 years, over five times the time Europeans can read.

so which of the two is it? or does decendents refer only to the spiritual mindset? For example, I as ethnic Jew ("Pure blooded" as you prefer to call it), I am a direcet decendent of the anciant Hebrews with no doubt. My ancestors crosed the red sea and witnessed G-d on mount Sinai, and lived for many years in a single land of Israel. Still, I may marry a Chinese convert, and our children would be full Jews for all matters, who look half Chinese and would still be direct decendents of the anciant Hebrews through my line. If these Children would marry more Chinese converts, their ethnic carestaristic (which for a creature like you mean the world), yet be full Jews with direct decendence (through me) to the anciant Hebrews. Still, converts are very rare in Judaism, since it's a long and difficult process and we are not keen on making conversions. We have no missionaries.

We know we are direct decendents of a racialy definded single nation through another easy to see fact. There is great imagination between the looks of majority of Jews (Both Sepharadi and Ashkenazis) and Persians and Kurds and some Arab clans. These nations are our closest racial kin.

As the attempt to assume there is significant racial dfference between Ashkenazis and Sepharadi as a stupid proof a Jewish ethinic nation does not exist, I'll add one more thing. It is very common in Israel to have mixed marriges between the decendence of these communities. Israel functions as a single Jewish community, and the terms Ashkenazis or Sepharadies become mere history.

[KettleWhistle]

it's usually the racists who are obsessed with blood

There is nothing wrong with knowing who you are and where you came from. Racism is first and foremost a supremacist ideology. There is nothing racist in simply recognizing human diversity.

[KettleWhistle]

there is scientific theory that human apperance is not a result of evolution, but stems from environmental factors. So you could take a bunch of Somalians, settle them in Sweden, and in a thosand or two years they would look more like the locals. It is not a widely accepted theory, but the evidence for it is pretty strong, and the Jewish situation seems to support it.

[determinism]

@Mira

Your three weeks were useless then. I've spent much more time in Mexico than that. The indigenous culture mixed with the Spaniards (some of whom are blond) -, and in other Latin American countries, African salves. There is a legacy of racism in Mexico based on skin color because of all of this. Then you can add the later influx of other European immigrants and even middle easterners and you have a wide variation...

my girlfriend is from mexico so i am well aware of these issues. if you read my posts you should know that i was specifically only referring to hair color and eye color...which is fairly uniform.

Studies have been done indicating that Jews (both of European and ME descent) share unique chromosones with other people in the ME.

i guess you mean alleles of certain polymorphic sites in the genome.

one more thing...you don't get to make the rules concerning our identity! We make the rules! And to the extent that there are contradictions that have been created as a result of our difficult history, it is up to us to work them out. You have absolutely no say in the matter. You people have done enough! You infected the entire world with your racist disease.

i am not making the rules i am asking what the rules are.


@Kettle

there is scientific theory that human apperance is not a result of evolution, but stems from environmental factors. So you could take a bunch of Somalians, settle them in Sweden, and in a thosand or two years they would look more like the locals. It is not a widely accepted theory, but the evidence for it is pretty strong, and the Jewish situation seems to support it.

if the somalis start to look more like the swedes than thats because of evolution! there is no alternative theory.


@Gil

are you arguing for or against a racial definition?
you complain about nazis being focused on race while for you the most important thing seems to be that you are a decendent of moses and share whatever genetic background with him. weird!


@Toga

Most non-Jews find it hard to understand that the reason the Jews are physically diverse is because unlike them or the way they are identified the Jews are not identified by blood, race or genetics. The reason they question the physical Jewish diversity is because they were told that Jews represent a monolilthic, united group with identifiable characterisitcs but when they look at us they see that we are physically different from one another. Therefore, they realize that they were fed nothing but lies about the Jews. The anti-Semites love to lump all Jews together.

it certainly is the result of lack of information...however it seems that even among the participants of this discussion there is considerable disagreement about the importance of genetic background.


to make this clear...from a geneticists perspective the concept of race is a somewhat questionable concept. subpopulations can vary genetically as much between each other as they do from a different population.

[KettleWhistle]

if the somalis start to look more like the swedes than thats because of evolution! there is no alternative theory.

It's not because of evolution. Try to read up on what evolution is and how it works before spouting nonsense. According to this theory, it's not that those with darker complection would be dieing off before they reproduce, but that environment, i.e. weather, food, etc., affects gene expression.

P.S. Are you sure you're a scientist, as you claim in your profile?

[Speaker]

It's not because of evolution. Try to read up on what evolution is and how it works before spouting nonsense. According to this theory, it's not that those with darker complection would be dieing off before they reproduce, but that environment, i.e. weather, food, etc., affects gene expression.

P.S. Are you sure you're a scientist, as you claim in your profile?

lol scientist :D Germans have no sense of humour...

[determinism]

@KettleWhistle

According to this theory, it's not that those with darker complection would be dieing off before they reproduce, but that environment, i.e. weather, food, etc., affects gene expression.

aha! so if the hypothetical somalis would spend a couple of days back in africa for vacation they would start to get dark hair and eyes again? :D

can you go into detail as to how the regulation of lets say the eye color genes is supposed to work?
how come you mentioned that only after 1000-2000 years this effect would emerge? if it is based on gene regulation the effects should happen rather quickly and would be confined to the individual.

[determinism]

@speaker

lol scientist Germans have no sense of humour...

indeed germany is not famous for its humor :D

[Speaker]

@speaker



indeed germany is not famous for its humor :D

When I say Germans it includes Austrians. ;)

[determinism]

When I say Germans it includes Austrians.

i figured as much :)

[KettleWhistle]

can you go into detail as to how the regulation of lets say the eye color genes is supposed to work?
how come you mentioned that only after 1000-2000 years this effect would emerge? if it is based on gene regulation the effects should happen rather quickly and would be confined to the individual.

According the theory, which cannot be realistically tested at this point in time, it is a matter of alternative splicing that directs alternative regulation of biological processes along generational lines. And like I said, there is some evidence for it.

[determinism]

KettleWhistle,

According the theory, which cannot be realistically tested at this point in time, it is a matter of alternative splicing that directs alternative regulation of biological processes along generational lines. And like I said, there is some evidence for it.

a) why can it not be tested? animals do not have this mechanism?

b) so what you are saying is that alternative splice variants are responsible for the change in eye color? and the splice machinery is regulated in a way that it responds to lets say reduced UV light levels?
so far so good...BUT the question remains, if it is an effect of inducible gene regulation (mediated by some sort of UV sensor pathway) why is it heritable?

[KettleWhistle]

What I'm saying is that it is a theory that as far as I know have not been tested, but it makes much sense. UV sensitivity is all very nice, but it doesn't account for appearance of Asian people, i.e. straight black hair, light skin, etc., and they are spread across varying climates. Nor does it make sense that UV sensitivity will cause dark-skinned persons to die before being able to reproduce if they migrate North. Ditto for the white-skinned populations. And especially so in the ancient societies where people started to reproduce in their early to mid teens.

[determinism]

KettleWhistle,

What I'm saying is that it is a theory that as far as I know have not been tested, but it makes much sense.

i still don't know what the theory is. do you have a link?

Nor does it make sense that UV sensitivity will cause dark-skinned persons to die before being able to reproduce if they migrate North.

i think you might have misunderstood an important concept.

selection as one driving force of evolution just states that on average an individual with characteristic A will have more offspring than an individual without that characteristic. in case of dark skinned people it is possible for instance that they cannot produce enough vitamin D in the north due to reduced UV levels. Thus on average they might have a little less offspring than an individual who is genetically identical but has white skin. Over many generations the white skinned people would become the predominant phenotype.

[KettleWhistle]

I don't have a link for it. I learned about it during my undergraduate studies from a really brilliant professor who is a well-established authority in his field of research.

Other than that, vitamin deficiency isn't really applicable because there are plenty of natural sources of these. Most ancient people died not because of vitamin deficiency, but of battle wounds anyway. And when people rarely live beyond the age of 25 health issues aren't an issue.

But anyway, it's a theory, so there is nothing more to say there, except that it is borderline idiotic to think that whenever Jews went there just happened to spur mass conversions and intermarriages and the children resulting from these decided to adopt the culture of a persecuted and unpopular minority.

[determinism]

KettleWhistle,

authority in his field of research

what was his field of research? ;)

seriously ,you must have misunderstood some aspects of whatever the theory is.

But anyway, it's a theory, so there is nothing more to say there, except that it is borderline idiotic to think that whenever Jews went there just happened to spur mass conversions and intermarriages and the children resulting from these decided to adopt the culture of a persecuted and unpopular minority.

unless the original population had already a very diverse genetic background the idiotic assumption seems the only viable one.

[KettleWhistle]

what was his field of research? ;)
Population genetics and genonomics; the latter not related to population genetics.

seriously ,you must have misunderstood some aspects of whatever the theory is.
I can assure you, I did not. I already had some experience in scientific research, and it was pretty clear what he was talking about. In fact, many scientists nowadays have departed from the evolutionary view reagarding human appearance. The more novel idea is that it is due to changing aspects of sexual atraction among different populations.

unless the original population had already a very diverse genetic background the idiotic assumption seems the only viable one.
Except that history proves otherwise. With exception of ancient Khazaria, nowhere did significant numbers of locals convert to Judaism and intermixed with the Jewish population. In regards to Khazaria, it was proven that only a small minority of Jews stem from it.

[determinism]

The more novel idea is that it is due to changing aspects of sexual atraction among different populations.

which in the end again only changes the fitness of individuals.

fact is that what we are talking about is caused by mutations that are inherited by the offspring. what causes a particular mutation/allele to become more prevalent in the population is a different question.

Except that history proves otherwise.

i would trust more in molecular biology than in history as the latter can be more easily manipulated to fit a personal preference. just look how much debate there is about what happened in palestine in the early 20th century. the arabs have a 100% opposing view of the jews and both can prove their point. who can say for sure what happened over a period of 2000 years with all jewish refugees, their marriages etc?

[Mediocrates]

Dumb Thread Alert !

Dumb Thread Alert !

[KettleWhistle]

Goody then. Plenty of info here: http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

[determinism]

KettleWhistle,

thank for the link! did you read it? according to Thomas et al. 2002 the female line can be traced back to founder individuals in each investigated jewish community. hte founder individuals in the different populations were genetically distant to each other. The male line shows no restriction suggesting host population influx.


Founding Mothers of Jewish Communities: Geographically Separated Jewish Groups Were Independently Founded by Very Few Female Ancestors

Mark G. Thomas,1,* Michael E. Weale,1,* Abigail L. Jones,1 Martin Richards,3 Alice Smith,2 Nicola Redhead,2 Antonio Torroni,5,6 Rosaria Scozzari,6 Fiona Gratrix,2 Ayele Tarekegn,1 James F. Wilson,2 Cristian Capelli,2 Neil Bradman,1 and David B. Goldstein2

1The Centre for Genetic Anthropology, Departments of Biology and Anthropology, and 2Department of Biology, University College London, London; 3Department of Chemical and Biological Sciences, University of Huddersfield, Huddersfield, United Kingdom; 4Bruce Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and Research Institute, Technion and Rambam Medical Center, Haifa, Israel; 5Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Università di Pavia, Pavia, Italy; and 6Dipartimento di Genetica e Biologia Molecolare, "La Sapienza" di Roma, Rome

Received November 2, 2001; accepted for publication March 6, 2002; electronically published April 30, 2002.

We have analyzed the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA from each of nine geographically separated Jewish groups, eight non-Jewish host populations, and an Israeli Arab/Palestinian population, and we have compared the differences found in Jews and non-Jews with those found using Y-chromosome data that were obtained, in most cases, from the same population samples. The results suggest that most Jewish communities were founded by relatively few women, that the founding process was independent in different geographic areas, and that subsequent genetic input from surrounding populations was limited on the female side. In sharp contrast to this, the paternally inherited Y chromosome shows diversity similar to that of neighboring populations and shows no evidence of founder effects. These sex-specific differences demonstrate an important role for culture in shaping patterns of genetic variation and are likely to have significant epidemiological implications for studies involving these populations. We illustrate this by presenting data from a panel of X-chromosome microsatellites, which indicates that, in the case of the Georgian Jews, the female-specific founder event appears to have resulted in elevated levels of linkage disequilibrium.



Introduction

Before the Second World War (19391945) and the founding of the modern state of Israel (1948), there were many long-standing separate Jewish communities in Europe, North Africa, and Asia. All of them claimed an origin in one or another dispersal from Israel and Judea. However, the origins of small minority communities founded before the 16th century are rarely well documented. For some Jews (e.g., the Babylonian Jews and modern Iraqi Jews), evidence exists of ancient Jewish communities in the same locations as in present times, but gaps often exist in the records of intervening centuries (Rejwan 1985, p. 143). In no case is there clear evidence of unbroken genetic continuity from early dispersal events to the present (de Lange 1984, p. 15; Encyclopaedia Judaica 1972).

A further difficulty in reconstructing past events is that the extent of travel in earlier times between Jewish communities, once they had become established, is not well understood. On the one hand, separation was sufficient for religious customs to vary from place to place (Reif 1993). On the other hand, intercommunity travel for social, religious, and trading purposes could be extensive (Beinart 1992). At the end of the 15th century, many Jewish communities in North Africa and western Asia were augmented as a consequence of the expulsions from Spain in 1492 (Ben-Sasson 1976).

How Jewish identity was determined in antiquity is also unclear. Conversion to Judaism was not uncommon in the pre-Christian Roman Empire and, in the 1st millennium A.D., the ruling classes of more than one polity adopted Judaism as the state religion (e.g., Himyar and Khazaria). Although tribal affiliation and priestly status were determined by paternal descent in ancient Israel, since Talmudic times (circa 200 B.C. to 500 A.D.), Jewish status has been defined, in the absence of conversion, by maternal descent (Encyclopaedia Judaica 1972).
Studies using both classical and molecular markers have provided evidence both for the common genetic origin of Jewish communities and for admixture between Jewish communities and their geographical neighbors (Mourant et al 1978; Livs et al. 1991; Bonné-Tamir et al. 1992). Studies of the paternally inherited Y chromosome have indicated that Ashkenazic Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Lebanese all have high frequencies of haplogroup J (as defined by the Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), in contrast to the populations of central Europe (Ritte et al. 1993a; Santachiara-Benerecetti et al. 1993). Thomas et al. (1998) reported that a particular microsatellite haplotype (the "Cohen modal haplotype," now known to be within haplogroup J) occurs at a high frequency in priests of Jewish groups that had been geographically separated for a long period. This led them to suggest that it could be a genetic signature of the ancient Hebrew population. Subsequent analyses have confirmed a substantial sharing of Y-chromosome haplotypes among different Jewish communities and also between Jewish and non-Jewish Near Eastern populations (Hammer et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2000).
Previous low-resolution RFLP studies of the maternally inherited mtDNA of Jews, using five or six restriction enzymes, have also revealed patterns interpreted both in terms of common origin and local admixture. Ritte et al. (1993b) found that genetic distances among seven Jewish communities and Israeli Arabs were comparable to those found among five globally dispersed populations, with Ethiopian Jews appearing more as an outgroup than Israeli Arabs. Tikochinski et al. (1991) and Ritte et al. (1992) found that genetic diversity within Jewish populations was generally lower than in populations with a geographically extensive distribution, such as whites, Asians, Australians, and Africans, but was greater than that found in geographically restricted populations such as New Guineans, a pattern they attributed to an unusually polymorphic ancestral Jewish population, a high rate of growth in Jewish populations, or introgression events from neighboring populations. Ritte et al. (1993a) compared mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplotypes in six Jewish communities and found consistently lower genetic diversity in the mtDNA than in the Y-chromosome haplotypes, although differences in mutational processes between these two marker systems make it very difficult to ascribe such differences with certainty to demographic effects.

Here we directly compare the paternal and maternal genetic histories of Jewish populations through paired analyses of Y chromosome and mtDNA diversity in Jewish populations and relevant host populations among whom the Jewish populations have been living for many generations. The use of paired comparisons (Jewish vs. non-Jewish) overcomes the difficulties that arise when making direct comparisons between mtDNA and Y-chromosome data (c.f. Ritte et al. 1993a). Given that the mutational processes are the same in both Jewish and non-Jewish populations within a genetic system, any consistent differences that are found must arise as the result of different population processes. The comparison of maternal and paternal historiesin the present case, mostly by use of the same population samplesis of particular interest, because of the long-standing religious definition of Jewish identity referred to above. If this system of matrilineal inheritance of Jewish identity has been strictly followed, we could expect it to be reflected in systematic differences in the pattern of mtDNA and Y-chromosome genetic variation within and among Jewish populations.

[Mediocrates]

Why don't you regale us with your interpretation of the Nuremberg race laws too.

[determinism]

Mediocrates,

it is not me who argues in favor of race categories.