MY First Thread

[gandolf2005]

Wow Im a member :) :D

Hello, to everyone here!

I have spent the last 9 months trying to get into this forum.

Im an ex army guy retired after 18 years...
12 years in a combat unit and 6 years in the Navy as an NES OPs.

The reason I am here is to learn, I was at another forum for 5 years
but the pro zundle and storm troopers have taken it over and I would like
for members here to see and help me respond to this hatred that is spreading in Canada.

anywho, can someone please PM on how to post pictures,

Thanks,

PS
is anyone here from PEI (Prince Edward Island) im looking to attend Seder :cool:

[gandolf2005]

Hi again,

I forgot to add I was in Gulf War part 1, Somolia and 2x in Hati..
Im not going over the countries Ive gone to...But ive been in 5 arab countries.

The Canadian Forces issued me with RC dog tags for Gulf War 1 and
I was the only jewish member of the armed forces who served in the Gulf.

I also was part of the Popes security detail when he came to Moncton NB
in 1984, I saw him from about 10-15 ft away but never met him.

[defari]

Welcome to this forum.

To post pictures you need to upload them to a server then post the link here.

Ever been to Egypt?

Happy posting!!!

[gandolf2005]

hello, and thank you for the info.

I was in Port Said for 24 hours we where not allowed off ship but merchents
and entertainers came aboard ( magic shows)

I bought my first Puzzle ring just a 4 band made of silver(one of many during my stay in the Gulf :cool: ) I have a 8 band 18 k gold puzzle ring wieghs 15 grams..its taped together, I fear taking it apart :D
Only 200.00 US :)


we went through the Suez Canal , lots of large sand dunes but between them very nice greenery, but on the tops of all the dunes are anti aircraft batteries...the soilders waved to us.

There are alot of rusted wrecks in the cannal and some old rusted tank wreckage from past wars on the shore.

The 7 months I spent in the middle east was very enjoyable..

[varian]

Are you a J.R.R. Tolkien fan too?

[gandolf2005]

I read the hobbit first.Before I read Lord of the rings about 3 times,
since the early 1980s...

I thought the movie had major gaps but was well put together.
Im looking forward to the hobbit movie.

I just could not get into JRs other books, I tried but It did not hold my intrest.

I have a ring wraith on my computer desk.

[varian]

At least the movies left out most of the dull, dragging areas in the trilogy. I did enjoy the movies too.

[Ariksan]

Well, they left out the last battle and created a phoney happy end... bah.

[SteveK]

Hi gandolf2005,

You are looking to attend a seder?

PS
is anyone here from PEI (Prince Edward Island) im looking to attend Seder

Are you a diaspora Jew?

[KettleWhistle]

Welcome to this forum.

To post pictures you need to upload them to a server then post the link here.


This web site is good for uploading pictures and linking to them from forums: http://www.imageshack.us/

[gandolf2005]

Are you a diaspora Jew?

Yes, Im an Evil Jew :D
To make things worse I married a catholic have 2 catholic children, and a catholic granddaughter.

But I make great chopped liver ;) does that make up for anything?
I have jewish food shipped to me from Montreal and I go to Shwartzs for Smoked meat :D

In 1978 I tried to join the Israeli army..the lady at the consulate was very bitchy, so much so I did not go back for my 2nd interview..
I did get a letter but changed my mind because of this one individul and joined the Canadian forces instead.

There was no internet so i did not know about trips to Israel for youth programs( birth right Isael)...if I did I would most likly be in israel right now,
Living in Gaza or the West Bank.

I belive in a strong Israel and strongly support her

[SteveK]

Yes, Im an Evil Jew :D
To make things worse I married a catholic have 2 catholic children, and a catholic granddaughter.

But I make great chopped liver ;) does that make up for anything?
I have jewish food shipped to me from Montreal and I go to Shwartzs for Smoked meat :D

In 1978 I tried to join the Israeli army..the lady at the consulate was very bitchy, so much so I did not go back for my 2nd interview..
I did get a letter but changed my mind because of this one individul and joined the Canadian forces instead.

There was no internet so i did not know about trips to Israel for youth programs( birth right Isael)...if I did I would most likly be in israel right now,
Living in Gaza or the West Bank.

I belive in a strong Israel and strongly support her


Hi gandolf2005,

Was the "lady" at the consulate a bitchy Israeli? What did she say that upset you so much?

[gandolf2005]

Hi steveK

It was her attitude, She was an older Woman 50ish?
you have to remember I was 17 years old and she scared me away.
I did get a letter a few months after my interview going over the steps and living on a kibbutz to learn hebrew..but I thought the isue was dead and I had already started joining the CAF( by the way 2nd Highest paid in the world)

tell you maybe I was being pushed on Purpose, all I knew was that I wanted
to get out of Quebec , My french was poor and I knew I had no future in Montreal...The Army was a way out.

Hows that for the truth :)

[SteveK]

Hi steveK

It was her attitude, She was an older Woman 50ish?
you have to remember I was 17 years old and she scared me away.
I did get a letter a few months after my interview going over the steps and living on a kibbutz to learn hebrew..but I thought the isue was dead and I had already started joining the CAF( by the way 2nd Highest paid in the world)

tell you maybe I was being pushed on Purpose, all I knew was that I wanted
to get out of Quebec , My french was poor and I knew I had no future in Montreal...The Army was a way out.

Hows that for the truth :)


Hi gandolf005,

What led you then to even consider taking off to Israel? What did the Canadian Army offer as "a way out" that Israel couldn't have offered you?

Obviously, you were not some mercenary looking for an army. The Canadian Army and Israeli Army both appealed to your respective identities as a Canadian and a Jew. Why didn't your Jewish one win out even over the bitch at the consulate?

[Canajew]

Hi steveK

It was her attitude, She was an older Woman 50ish?
you have to remember I was 17 years old and she scared me away.
I did get a letter a few months after my interview going over the steps and living on a kibbutz to learn hebrew..but I thought the isue was dead and I had already started joining the CAF( by the way 2nd Highest paid in the world)

tell you maybe I was being pushed on Purpose, all I knew was that I wanted
to get out of Quebec , My french was poor and I knew I had no future in Montreal...The Army was a way out.

Hows that for the truth :)

welcome sir, it's good to have you here. I'm sure your contribution will be well received.

And sorry, but I didn't know there were any Jews in PEI, so I don't know of any Seders.

[SteveK]

welcome sir, it's good to have you here. I'm sure your contribution will be well received.

And sorry, but I didn't know there were any Jews in PEI, so I don't know of any Seders.

I just thought of it.

If you can contact a Chabad-Lubavitch Center, then they can direct you
to a seder where you are,- at least there is a very good chance that they can.

Chabad-Lubavitch is the General Motors of global institutionalized Judaism.

It's worth a try. And, Toronto must be loaded with Chabadniks.

[varian]

Even though your children are Catholic, don't let them miss out on the beauty, richness, meaning, and virtues expressed in the traditional Holy Days celebrated by Judaism. Mainstream Christianinty is impoverished for ignoring this for centuries, and can offer little else to fill this void.

[SteveK]

Even though your children are Catholic, don't let them miss out on the beauty, richness, meaning, and virtues expressed in the traditional Holy Days celebrated by Judaism. Mainstream Christianinty is impoverished for ignoring this for centuries, and can offer little else to fill this void.

varian,

You don't enjoy the commercial side of Christmas in the diaspora?

I certainly miss it.

And, if anyone believes in Santa Claus, it's you diaspora Jews. You've got a whole Jewish Homeland as a gift without even stepping foot on the Land of Israel to claim it.

[varian]

varian,

You don't enjoy the commercial side of Christmas in the diaspora?

I certainly miss it.

And, if anyone believes in Santa Claus, it's you diaspora Jews. You've got a whole Jewish Homeland as a gift without even stepping foot on the Land of Israel to claim it.

I'm not a Jew by nationality or conversion (even if I do try to study Judaism). I live in a desert region, and certain holidays just don't have the same feel as in areas that get a lot of snow. Besides, everyone knows that Santa doesn't like landing his sleigh in the sand, because it keeps tearing up the runners. Sorry, but I'm a staunchly pro-Israel goy. The aliyah is not for goys.

[SteveK]

I'm not a Jew by nationality or conversion (even if I do try to study Judaism). I live in a desert region, and certain holidays just don't have the same feel as in areas that get a lot of snow. Besides, everyone knows that Santa doesn't like landing his sleigh in the sand, because it keeps tearing up the runners. Sorry, but I'm a staunchly pro-Israel goy. The aliyah is not for goys.

varian,

I've got a big news bulletin for you. You staunch pro-Israel goys are more pro-Israel than the g-d diaspora Jews themselves.

You goys understand more about Israeli mentality for a sovereign homeland than these f-ing diaspora Jews because you goys are normal and value your sovereign countries as a normal people.

These diaspora Jews oscillate from one day as a better American to the next day as a better Jew.

All I can say to you then is thank you. I wish that you could straighten out the thinking of these "self-preserving" diaspora Jews whose only true life's mission as Jews is to keep their "indefinite" shelf-life.

[gandolf2005]

Hi steve,
If you can contact a Chabad-Lubavitch Center, then they can direct you
to a seder where you are,- at least there is a very good chance that they can.

There is one in Moncton 3-4 hours away..

I contacted a lady here today, from the atlantic Jewish council...about 20 jewish families on this island, must be Doctors, Ill fit right in :rolleyes: LMAO
Its a pot luck seder held in a church basement :eek:
.............
varian
Even though your children are Catholic, don't let them miss out on the beauty, richness, meaning, and virtues expressed in the traditional Holy Days celebrated by Judaism. Mainstream Christianinty is impoverished for ignoring this for centuries, and can offer little else to fill this void.

My kids are proud of their jewish heritage, when we moved here there where nazi symals in the school ,my daughter complained and they where all painted over...

If you asked my kids 20 and 18 what are they Catholic or Jewish they would reply both :cool:

[SteveK]

Hi gandolf2005,

To whom do you and your family look for Jewish identity and guidance?

Is the fact that a "shul" is just around the corner enough for you, or do you all have stronger interactions with a Jewish community?

What did the Canadian army give you that the Israeli army couldn't?

How do you reconcile the fact that the diaspora Jews tell the world about the Passover story without any intention to actually living in their Jewish Homeland, and in effect, reduce the Living God of Israel into just a storybook myth?

[gandolf2005]

Hi gandolf2005,

To whom do you and your family look for Jewish identity and guidance?

Is the fact that a "shul" is just around the corner enough for you, or do you all have stronger interactions with a Jewish community?

What did the Canadian army give you that the Israeli army couldn't?

How do you reconcile the fact that the diaspora Jews tell the world about the Passover story without any intention to actually living in their Jewish Homeland, and in effect, reduce the Living God of Israel into just a storybook myth?

My upbringing and my family as a whole, my uncle from Poland who survived Auchwitz would tell us the stories how he survived from 14 yeas old and how he lost his whole family, its tragic events that bind us ...thats the sad part
His name is Philip Riteman you can look him up in google.

closest Shul is 3-4 hours away, only 12 families on this island not including ME, I was told yesterday about 20 jews total ...the island I live on has less then 130,000 people I think its larger than Israel.
Every military posting except for Halifax was Isolated combat bases far from large Urban centers I was 1 of 7 jews serving at one time in the entire CF..


I was the only jewish member of the Canadian forces to Serve in the Gulf war
the army gave me Roman Catholic Dog tags, I asked why they said you figure it out..
I spent 18 years in the CAF and living apart from the Jewish community
living apart from any jews.

The Canadian forces gave me a way out of Frogville known as Quebec, I could not speak french and a bill called 101 ruined the city Of Montreal forcing the transfer of 10s of thousands of jobs to Ont ...even the jewish community most left Quebec the end of the 1970s was the end of Montreals greatness..I hope Leveque is roasting in hell :D

My life is not over yet, I have a great desire to be in israel.
My hebrew is as good as my french, Im getting on in years and
a move to Israel is unlikly.....After my trip to the Caribbian this year I might head to Israel but Amsterdam is calling as well :D

A jew is a jew no matter where they live or how they practice
I dont think a jew in Israel is better than me. They just dont have to shovel as much snow as I do. :D

Dont forget the internet brings us all closer together, and thats a good thing.

[gandolf2005]

Hey, steve my man where did you disapear too??
ahhh Shabbat , Thats whats happens when your a diaspora Jew I guess I forget these things:D

enjoy the weekend , $$50.00 says your here but dont post (place smiley here)

Good Shabbat stay out of s-hit:D my man...(place smiley HERE too)


----------------------------------------------------------
HEY YOU CANT SAY S*HIT (place smiley here as well) or even Cr*p or use 3 smileys,
Can I eat tomato and bacon sandwich while I post? :D

[SteveK]

Hey, steve my man where did you disapear too??
ahhh Shabbat , Thats whats happens when your a diaspora Jew I guess I forget these things:D

enjoy the weekend , $$50.00 says your here but dont post (place smiley here)

Good Shabbat stay out of s-hit:D my man...(place smiley HERE too)


----------------------------------------------------------
HEY YOU CANT SAY S*HIT (place smiley here as well) or even Cr*p or use 3 smileys,
Can I eat tomato and bacon sandwich while I post? :D


Hi gandolf2005,

You win. It's 2 AM in Israel now. Too bad that I can't collect your $100,000 reward for evidence of the moon. In 1971, I was a university student in Houston, Texas, and two doors down from a Chemistry laboratory where I worked for a professor, was a scientist who was analyzing moon samples.
My word is my conclusive evidence by email. You accept?

So, if a Jew can be a Jew anywhere in the world, then why shouldn't the Arabs tell me to go be a Jew somewhere else in the world, and join you all, some few millions of you all?

The issue here with the Arabs is about land. The diaspora Jews don't seem to understand that to claim land as your "homeland" that you must actually live on that land as sovereign citizens. Israelis understand this reality.
And, American Christians also understand this reality.

gandolf2005, tell me about your understanding of this reality.

[Mira]

Hey, steve my man where did you disapear too??
ahhh Shabbat , Thats whats happens when your a diaspora Jew I guess I forget these things:D

enjoy the weekend , $$50.00 says your here but dont post (place smiley here)

Good Shabbat stay out of s-hit:D my man...(place smiley HERE too)

$$50.00...Canadian? $75.00 says you made him laugh when he read it. Sure SteveK wants to like you. But Nope! Sorry...no can do for the diaspora Jew.

So listen, if you end up going to that Seder and you are worried about it I have a small suggestion. The thing that makes Israeli guys so hot is the unifrom. You should wear yours. :) The men will respect your service and the women will swoon. So what if it's been over ten years and now it fits a little tight?

[gandolf2005]

I play dradle under the christmas Tree...

I wont get into a diaspora Jew pissing contest...I think its funny :D

Im still doing alot of reading here but it seems not too much people argue over the diaspora issue, Its like saying how many people in toronto where actually born there??

I live closer to Israel than Canajew so Im better say by 2500km :D LMAO
---------------------------------------------------
I always threaten the wife that im going to dump here for some big breasted Israeli say between 25-35... wealthy, a good cook, does not talk too much.. :D

[Mira]

I always threaten the wife that im going to dump here for some big breasted Israeli say between 25-35... wealthy, a good cook, does not talk too much.. :D
If you find that woman let me know cause I'll take her! ;)

[SteveK]

I play dradle under the christmas Tree...

I wont get into a diaspora Jew pissing contest...I think its funny :D

Im still doing alot of reading here but it seems not too much people argue over the diaspora issue, Its like saying how many people in toronto where actually born there??

I live closer to Israel than Canajew so Im better say by 2500km :D LMAO
---------------------------------------------------
I always threaten the wife that im going to dump here for some big breasted Israeli say between 25-35... wealthy, a good cook, does not talk too much.. :D


Hi gandolf2005,

I don't come to a forum to chit chat.

I hope that you will take the time to elaborate on your statement:

My life is not over yet, I have a great desire to be in israel.

Furthermore, was it you who makes chopped liver?
Do you add real chicken shmultz?

[gandolf2005]

Hi gandolf2005,

I don't come to a forum to chit chat.

I hope that you will take the time to elaborate on your statement:



Furthermore, was it you who makes chopped liver?
Do you add real chicken shmultz?

I don't come to a forum to chit chat.

can you write Shmuck here?? :D
Your just looking for a fight, and im not going to cooperate with your request.
I enjoy my time online, Im not looking to up the Paxil :p

--------------------------

I hope that you will take the time to elaborate on your statement:

My life is not over yet, I have a great desire to be in israel.


I bought a Loto ticket last friday night if I had won I would have moved to Israel, ..(smily here)
I would like to live there , why not, but while I have the desire it most likly wont happen..Hell Im going to Jamaica this year instead of the Dominican Republic..could as easy go to israel but something about Carabbian has me go year after year..thats something is my wife , she is getting older, might ditch her for an Israeli, what Im looking for in an Isaeli woman is in an earlier post. Have dual residences you know?? rent out in Israel and live in Canada :D

-----------------------------------------------------

yes I fry up the onions and left over fat from chicken breasts,( not kosher) but its still not like the stuff you can buy in Montreal or Israel..its much sweeter in the Jar,
But I hear Montreals shmultz is more superior than what you get in Israel.

Thats what I hear in the other forum , Id invite you , but you would not enjoy the chit chat..I heard one of the guys there had a 10ft Hanukkah tree last December(insert grin here)

[SteveK]

can you write Shmuck here?? :D
Your just looking for a fight, and im not going to cooperate with your request.
I enjoy my time online, Im not looking to up the Paxil :p


gandolf2005,

You have me convinced that you have no agenda, and as an assimilated Jew,
you won't be needing to attach to the illusion that the diaspora Jews, who stayed in the diaspora, created the State of Israel, and Israelis are obligated to thank them for it. Only, the diaspora Jews who made aliya here created the State of Israel.

So, I might contribute to your chit chat along the way.

[frizzer1]

Ok..so Steve has a message for us useless,good for nothing, Diaspora vermin.
We get it....really we do.No need to keep ramming it down our throats,or at least down mine.
Now is there anything else you'd like to contribute,or would you classify that as that evil above all other evils known as chit-chat?

Personal note.
I have always felt really jewish...to the core jewish.I feel it when I'm walking to shul with my tallit and when I'm just out doing my thing.But it's when I'm with non-jews that I feel it the most.Yet when I'm in Israel I feel like I lose my identity as a jew.Everyone is jewish, not just me.And I no longer feel that my jewishness is something special.I have seen some of my ortho relatives become secular after making Aliyah and I suspect it is because they too lose their "reason' for being jewish.
Just the way I see it.

[gandolf2005]

Personal note.
I have always felt really jewish...to the core jewish.I feel it when I'm walking to shul with my tallit and when I'm just out doing my thing.But it's when I'm with non-jews that I feel it the most.Yet when I'm in Israel I feel like I lose my identity as a jew.Everyone is jewish, not just me.And I no longer feel that my jewishness is something special.I have seen some of my ortho relatives become secular after making Aliyah and I suspect it is because they too lose their "reason' for being jewish.
Just the way I see it.

Im with you except for the shul part..I have not been to one in years :o ...

Steve I have no agenda, I wanted to intro myself, so I would feel more at home here..before I post and get into conflict or real debate with the people here I wanted to feel my way around...

I dont want to start a thread unless it will contribute to positive debate...

Maybe all newbies should post an intro , I think it would be a great Idea ;)

[SteveK]

Ok..so Steve has a message for us useless,good for nothing, Diaspora vermin.
....

Personal note.
...

I have seen some of my ortho relatives become secular after making Aliyah and I suspect it is because they too lose their "reason' for being jewish.
Just the way I see it.

frizzer1,

I can tell you that my personal reason for identifying with the secular is that I share their disgust with Jewish religious movements and Rabbinic dynasties.
Though, I am trying to "find my way" into Breslov Chassidim. I said already that I am embarrassed to wear a kipa in public. I wouldn't be caught dead right now wearing a Tallis or tzitzit. Yet, I truly believe in God, and want a national Torah leadership and government here.

There is nothing to be ashamed of in "Dressing up and acting" like a Jew according to our Torah heritage. Yet, I'm publically ashamed to do so like so many secular Israelis. But, I'm not afraid or ashamed to express my faith and belief in God to everybody.

Probably, that's what has to be affirmed here in Israel first among us, as a nation, is our faith and awe in the Living God of Israel. Otherwise, it's just a masquerade party trying to be "Jewish".

And, what does the Living God of Israel want from us Jews?

[SteveK]

Steve I have no agenda, I wanted to intro myself, so I would feel more at home here..before I post and get into conflict or real debate with the people here I wanted to feel my way around...

I dont want to start a thread unless it will contribute to positive debate...

Maybe all newbies should post an intro , I think it would be a great Idea ;)


Hi gandolf2005,

Great. I appreciate your sober response.

[ChristaPaloma]

Hi gandolf2005,

Great. I appreciate your sober response.

As a newbie... so do I. :D

I was looking at the main forum, and I am having trouble deciding which title to use for a question I have regarding Jewish mythology. This forum seems more dedicated to conflict resolution?
By way of introduction, my interest lies in consciousness study, and as such explores mythology. (This can be unpopular as I tend to view religious programs as such.) I'm hoping an earnest Jewish scholar can help me with a few questions.
Lastly, this looks like a very respectful website from both the moderators and the patrons..... it is a much appreciated atmosphere.

[SteveK]

... By way of introduction, my interest lies in consciousness study, and as such explores mythology.

....Lastly, this looks like a very respectful website from both the moderators and the patrons..... it is a much appreciated atmosphere.


Hi ChristaPaloma,

Yes, I do believe that you are a very serious student of mythology.

My interest lies in the worship of God, without object or image relation, by the ancient Jewish People, together as a nation. And, in this severe contradiction of human nature, I believe lies strong evidence to the existence of the Living God of Israel.

[ChristaPaloma]

Hi ChristaPaloma,

Yes, I do believe that you are a very serious student of mythology.

My interest lies in the worship of God, without object or image relation, by the ancient Jewish People, together as a nation. And, in this severe contradiction of human nature, I believe lies strong evidence to the existence of the Living God of Israel.

I was in this past year, occassioned to go to a funeral of a Jewish man. I was struck by the simplicity of the room, the altar...the fact that no idols were present...just this simple congregation assembled to be in humility with god. It was very refreshing from the traditions I was raised in as a catholic and the view I was given of the Hindu culture and their gods and image. I have respect for all of them, as they remain all paths that seek to reunite the father and the son, (my belief), and I have to say regards the Jewish traditions, the coming purely to god wthout "object or image" is more important than we know. Though my interest lies beyond the worship of God for my own beliefs, I think it is highly important that we band together in such pure expressions to God. I am not sure what you are referring to as the "severe contradiction of human nature?" (guessing you mean the propensity to idol worship), but absolutely I do believe the coming purely to God without preconditions and accoutrements, is vital not only to revelation of the existence of the Living God of Israel, but to all humanity in revelation to the god within all of us. There can be no intermediary if truth is to reveal itself and that includes all objects, images and the realy tricky part..the eventual letting go of the programmed thought we used to get raise ourselves to god in the first place. I believe we are a unity consciousness, and One in God. We have allowed our religions to seperate as in the body of god, but I believe when anyone comes to revelation of the Prophets, their love and expression of god becomes a universal expression that is wholely creative of all life. What you are expressing is a vital step to the revelation of the Prophets, in the revelation of truth. Just my personal view forged as I go along, so please do not be concerned if it does not fit with your own in any way. We are all doing our best to come to truth within ourselves, for a great teacher once said, "The Truth Shall Set You Free." It was given to all men, and I believe therefore, that it must be found in ALL men, as one in the body of god.

[KettleWhistle]

As a newbie... so do I. :D

I was looking at the main forum, and I am having trouble deciding which title to use for a question I have regarding Jewish mythology. This forum seems more dedicated to conflict resolution?
By way of introduction, my interest lies in consciousness study, and as such explores mythology. (This can be unpopular as I tend to view religious programs as such.) I'm hoping an earnest Jewish scholar can help me with a few questions.
Lastly, this looks like a very respectful website from both the moderators and the patrons..... it is a much appreciated atmosphere.
If you are looking for mythology, as opposed to religion, then you could start with Torah. Then there are many areligious rightings that describe much of the ancient Hebrew worldviews. There are things like the book of Enoch that describes how they understood the structure of the universe, and various other pre-Christian and early Christian writings.

[Mediocrates]

I'm afraid that you'd be hard pressed to find any sources that deal with so called Judaic mythology. As in what? If all you want is a literary dissection of Bresheit you can find that. But then what?

[KettleWhistle]

I think many things would qualify, from the stories about Lilith to apocrypha, as well as numerous other writings that are not in the Tanah. There are quite a few of these.

[SteveK]

I was in this past year, occassioned to go to a funeral of a Jewish man. I was struck by the simplicity of the room, the altar...the fact that no idols were present...just this simple congregation assembled to be in humility with god. It was very refreshing from the traditions I was raised in as a catholic and the view I was given of the Hindu culture and their gods and image...

...I am not sure what you are referring to as the "severe contradiction of human nature?" (guessing you mean the propensity to idol worship)...


Hi ChristaPaloma,

Quite the opposite. The human propensity to idol worship is not the "severe contradiction of human nature". The human propensity to idol worship is exactly what human nature is all about: the overpowering need for object and image relation. The ancient Jewish acceptance and worship of God, without any object or image relation is the "severe contradiction of human nature".

Think about it. Feel it as a human being. Would you have accepted only an authority figure like Moses telling you that there is this God of Whom you can't sense or even imagine? Would you have followed such a leader who, himself, appeared rather abnormal in bowing down to such a God without any connection to some object or image? If you can't imagine yourself following Moses on just his word alone, then can you imagine what a whole Hebrew nation would have thought of such an abnormal leader and such a completely abnormal concept of such a God?

Who else could have been the source of such existence of this God, of otherwise no object or image relation, to you and this whole Hebrew nation, but that God, Himself, through some spectacular revelations before the whole nation? Isn't that what EXODUS is about?

[ChristaPaloma]

I think many things would qualify, from the stories about Lilith to apocrypha, as well as numerous other writings that are not in the Tanah. There are quite a few of these.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
It is the character "Lilith" I am wanting to find out about...where she first appears in actual Hebrew writings and what source.

[ChristaPaloma]

Hi SteveK....
Hi ChristaPaloma,

Quite the opposite. The human propensity to idol worship is not the "severe contradiction of human nature". The human propensity to idol worship is exactly what human nature is all about: the overpowering need for object and image relation. The ancient Jewish acceptance and worship of God, without any object or image relation is the "severe contradiction of human nature".
HHmmm... see now, I would have thought that our true nature would not have taken us there, and that the propensity to idol worship is an aberration created by attachement to the material world, as we are so mired in the five senses. Perhaps true enough of human nature in the sense that it is to be expected in survival consciousness, as a stage of growth. When we go to soul levels, human nature essentially looks different, though we have yet to get to healthy. We still operate under huge thought distortion in this reality.

Think about it. Feel it as a human being. Would you have accepted only an authority figure like Moses telling you that there is this God of Whom you can't sense or even imagine? Would you have followed such a leader who, himself, appeared rather abnormal in bowing down to such a God without any connection to some object or image? If you can't imagine yourself following Moses on just his word alone, then can you imagine what a whole Hebrew nation would have thought of such an abnormal leader and such a completely abnormal concept of such a God?
Actually, the nation already had a concept of god...they were running amok with ideas and it was that Moses sought to intill some sort of moral authority and cohesion in thought about god. It was primitive survival consciousness operating back then, and still is for the most part. We have yet to move out of it, though the last 200 years of human history have been on a rapid course of information exchange that we are starting to shift.
Who else could have been the source of such existence of this God, of otherwise no object or image relation, to you and this whole Hebrew nation, but that God, Himself, through some spectacular revelations before the whole nation? Isn't that what EXODUS is about?

I don't have a problem with the source of it, just what we did with it as interpretations of what god necessarily is. We catalogued god according to our ideas birthed by a consciousness that was attached to the material five sense reality learning just to survive. Our thinking has gone way past that at this stage of the game, and it is why we are seeing so many going into the re-defining of god. We are starting to see how we have created new illusions to break old ones, and that ultimately, man can only find truth by standing back and allowing it to be it;s own revelation in the reality. That requires the relinquishment of all preconceived thought programs. Including all religions and the fathers of them. The posture of the Hebrew nature is to me, a correct attitude of coming to god, to allow such revelation, and I kinda think they safeguarded something for human consciousness in that.

[SteveK]

ChristaPaloma:

HHmmm... see now, I would have thought that our true nature would not have taken us there, and that the propensity to idol worship is an aberration created by attachement to the material world, as we are so mired in the five senses. Perhaps true enough of human nature in the sense that it is to be expected in survival consciousness, as a stage of growth. When we go to soul levels, human nature essentially looks different, though we have yet to get to healthy. We still operate under huge thought distortion in this reality.


Our propensity to idol worship is based on our human behavioural requirement for object and image relation even for our "spiritual needs". Bear in mind that many ancient Israelites were rampant in idolatrous practices.


ChristaPaloma:

Actually, the nation already had a concept of god...they were running amok with ideas and it was that Moses sought to intill some sort of moral authority and cohesion in thought about god. It was primitive survival consciousness operating back then, and still is for the most part. We have yet to move out of it, though the last 200 years of human history have been on a rapid course of information exchange that we are starting to shift.

The moral authority of Moses was based on the support of God, Himself, from the beginning based on the plagues brought on Egypt, and all the support he got from God every step of the way in the wilderness. Otherwise, Moses would never have convinced a whole Hebrew nation that he could lead them out of Egypt, let alone into their Promised Land. Furthermore, Moses, by himself, could never have raised God from being a personal one to the Hebrews to being a political God over their entire nation.


ChristaPaloma:

I don't have a problem with the source of it, just what we did with it as interpretations of what god necessarily is. We catalogued god according to our ideas birthed by a consciousness that was attached to the material five sense reality learning just to survive. Our thinking has gone way past that at this stage of the game, and it is why we are seeing so many going into the re-defining of god. We are starting to see how we have created new illusions to break old ones, and that ultimately, man can only find truth by standing back and allowing it to be it;s own revelation in the reality. That requires the relinquishment of all preconceived thought programs. Including all religions and the fathers of them. The posture of the Hebrew nature is to me, a correct attitude of coming to god, to allow such revelation, and I kinda think they safeguarded something for human consciousness in that.

This has been the problem of the Jews from the time of Sinai. The Torah is even more credible for me in that it relates the ancient Jews with the realities of being human in response to the revelations of God. There was a fast degeneration from the beginning into "religion" where God could be put into a "box" and worshipped as kind of a national deity from afar through prayers and rituals. Even these ancient Jews couldn't confront the fact that such God, Who brought them out of Egypt with such collosal manifestations of His power, was to rule over them. The Jewish religion is not an outgrowth from exiles. The Jewish psyche never outgrew the mode of normal human psyches for relating to gods through a religion. There were no civilizations which were ruled by a god, unless of course, the human ruler, himself, had declared himself or was declared a god. But, the Jews are dealing with the one and only real God. That our Judaism is still grounded in international Religious movements, instead of truly being grounded in our own Sovereign Homeland, nullifies the intended thrust, momentum, and direction of our Exodus from Egypt, our Passover heritage, as the origin for our Sovereign National navigation. In other words: The Living God of Israel was to have been (but the Jews were not ready then) and is to be (the Jews are even less ready today) the living ruler in Israel. This message from the time of Sinai has been integrated into the Christian belief in Jesus. I would never suggest that the Christians are idolators; however, I do say that they worship the same God as the Jews, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
However, the Torah clearly states that the Jews are never to relate to God with any kind of object or image, and that the Jews are to be a "kingdom of priests". In other words, God has yet to emerge from being just a personal God to His role in being the political God.

You are right on target when you say that:

The posture of the Hebrew nature is to me, a correct attitude of coming to god, to allow such revelation, and I kinda think they safeguarded something for human consciousness in that.

But, it must go beyond just that of human consciousness into full actualization that the fear and awe of the Living God of Israel brings His manifest presence and rule to bear here in Israel and for the world.
We Jews must not be in the business of religion. It's all about us as a sovereign people and the light that we must be to the other nations in bringing God to be resolved with State and not separated from it into religions.

[ChristaPaloma]

Our propensity to idol worship is based on our human behavioural requirement for object and image relation even for our "spiritual needs". Bear in mind that many ancient Israelites were rampant in idolatrous practices.

lol Ok that's what I said lol...
That human behavioral is nature in survival consciousness.
Enter ...say.... Christ Consciousness, where the higher nature of human has entrance in the reality and that shifts.
I guess what I am arguing here is really the idea that human nature is fixed, vs what I believe is evolving to an inherent potential of essential nature as god-being.

The moral authority of Moses was based on the support of God, Himself, from the beginning based on the plagues brought on Egypt, and all the support he got from God every step of the way in the wilderness. Otherwise, Moses would never have convinced a whole Hebrew nation that he could lead them out of Egypt, let alone into their Promised Land. Furthermore, Moses, by himself, could never have raised God from being a personal one to the Hebrews to being a political God over their entire nation.

OK but that is just the Moses program making it's mark in time. I no longer view god as an outside deity in that sense. I'm pretty sure it is us, both within and outside of the reality doing all of this, so the program is eventually let go of in favor of becoming.

The Jewish psyche never outgrew the mode of normal human psyches for relating to gods through a religion.

And that perpetuates regardless of what religion we speak of..the Christain psyche, the Hindu psyche etc... humanity as a whole is just now coming to that.

But, the Jews are dealing with the one and only real God. That our Judaism is still grounded in international Religious movements, instead of truly being grounded in our own Sovereign Homeland, nullifies the intended thrust, momentum, and direction of our Exodus from Egypt, our Passover heritage, as the origin for our Sovereign National navigation. In other words: The Living God of Israel was to have been (but the Jews were not ready then) and is to be (the Jews are even less ready today) the living ruler in Israel. This message from the time of Sinai has been integrated into the Christian belief in Jesus. I would never suggest that the Christians are idolators; however, I do say that they worship the same God as the Jews, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So...is that the "chosen people" program you are holding in that?
I agree that they are all worshipping the same god, but in speaking of the Jews dealing with the one and only real god, I have to remove god from the relationship of "Jews" or any other label we have to put on it.
As you can see, my own beliefs are of Unity consciousness as the absolute of it... that negates any labels we have created for it in the reality and brings it home to "within each one of us", which I believe was the awarness that Jesus and others of historical enlightenment have tried to give to us, but the programming here is very dense.

However, the Torah clearly states that the Jews are never to relate to God with any kind of object or image, and that the Jews are to be a "kingdom of priests". In other words, God has yet to emerge from being just a personal God to His role in being the political God.

OK but in that you have gone to the script of the program (where did that come from?) in order to satisfy it's validity. (It is a bit like saying the play on stage is real because the script calls for this and that to happen, so we have to keep to what the writing calls for).
If the script calls for the Jews to be a kingdom of priests, I'd have to say they lost their way to that. Other programs would have to have been given to this reality in order to satisy that free will movement, and I kinda think that is why the entrance of JC. It was a call back to awareness of inherent potential as the Christ in all of us. Something that could no longer be effected through the Jews for their own becomming immersed in the five sense reality and mired in the physicality of the material.
As for god emerging as the political god, I think that was a waylaying of things in itself. What business would god have of politics? God is creatorship and as such, does not require heirarchical concepts. I believe god is to emerge as a personal god in each one of us, and the need for political vanishes in that.

But, it must go beyond just that of human consciousness into full actualization that the fear and awe of the Living God of Israel brings His manifest presence and rule to bear here in Israel and for the world.
We Jews must not be in the business of religion. It's all about us as a sovereign people and the light that we must be to the other nations in bringing God to be resolved with State and not separated from it into religions.

See, you and I are sort of aligned, and yet not. I would rephrase that to:
It must go beyond that of just human consciousness into full actualization that the Love, Wisdom, and Power of the Living God of ALL peoples of ALL nations, brings His manifest presence to walk the surface of His own creation through them. As the Christian script gives, in the end times (I see that as the end of an unconscious creation having awakened not the end of the reality), religion will have fallen. It does not say this is a bad thing though many have interpreted it to mean that. I don't think so. So not only Jews need to release religion. I do not think the program can be used any more to have the Jews be a sovereign people, as I believe the window for that went as free will distortion skewed things. I think the evolution of human consciousness will see the emergence of the many priests (Christs) walking the Earth having sprung from all nations and all religions and all ideologies (including atheism as a track of thought) to bear witness of god as living, moving and having His being in all of us. In that, the truth will set us free. The Jews have played a key role in that, but also I think we will discover that every religion has safeguarded some aspect of truth for the entirety of human consciousness as we move through time to work it out.
Your own statement:
It's all about us as a sovereign people and the light that we must be to the other nations in bringing God to be resolved with State and not separated from it into religions.
....contains a seperation in presuming god to be concerned with state. God encompasses all aspects of human life and I see it more as god being resolved with human ego not allowing god dominion in favor of it's own tiny will, regardless of the culture. When we resolve, it must resolve all peoles and all aspects of life on the planet or it does not resolve god. As you can see, my thoughts are universal. cp

[SteveK]

... Your own statement:
It's all about us as a sovereign people and the light that we must be to the other nations in bringing God to be resolved with State and not separated from it into religions.
....contains a separation in presuming god to be concerned with state. God encompasses all aspects of human life and I see it more as god being resolved with human ego not allowing god dominion in favor of it's own tiny will, regardless of the culture. When we resolve, it must resolve all peole's and all aspects of life on the planet or it does not resolve god. As you can see, my thoughts are universal. cp


Hi ChristaPaloma,

The Torah states specifically God's purpose for the Jewish People as His Chosen People:

Our purpose as a Sovereign Nation, as God's Chosen People:

EXODUS (19:3-6):

"And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him out of the mountain [Sinai], saying, Thus shalt thou say to the House of Jacob, and tell the Children of Israel; You have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now, therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be my own treasure from among the peoples; for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak to the Children of Israel."

The above commandment of God to Moses was a few days before the giving of the Torah to the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai.

God, The Children of Israel, Torah, and The Land of Israel are one inseparable package deal. It's about the sovereign Jewish nation being the example to the other nations. The old covenant with the Jewish People is still the covenant in force. We Jews must resolve God with State.

All religious movements are divisive to the unification of nations under God.
The Jewish religious movements are divisive to the unification of the Jewish People in their own sovereign Homeland, Israel.

[ChristaPaloma]

Hi ChristaPaloma,

"The Torah states specifically God's purpose for the Jewish People as His Chosen People:

Our purpose as a Sovereign Nation, as God's Chosen People"

Hi Steve,

OK...but I see that as a script to effect movement of consciousness in time.
The reality being as dense as it was, got mired to a point of not effecting that. Life moved on, and many other scripts were brought into play.


The above commandment of God to Moses was a few days before the giving of the Torah to the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai.

God, The Children of Israel, Torah, and The Land of Israel are one inseparable package deal. It's about the sovereign Jewish nation being the example to the other nations. The old covenant with the Jewish People is still the covenant in force. We Jews must resolve God with State.

At this point, we can safely say that nations themselves are divisive. The reunification of nations can no longer occur under one nation for what we have done with it from the getgo....god at this point will have to reveal through all current concepts in order to reunify humanity...that will ultimately require the relinquishment of all claims to labels of any kind. We will come through the programs to speak to people, but we will not wear the program.

All religious movements are divisive to the unification of nations under God.
The Jewish religious movements are divisive to the unification of the Jewish People in their own sovereign Homeland, Israel.

Nations are divisive to the body of god.
The Jewish religious movements are divisive to the unification of the Jewish people, but the same can be said of any group. Christianity is the same...as all religions harbor separation by human nature. God must be pulled back to express through the individual as a reunification of the father with the son. This can be effected through any religion or spiritual practice, but reunification achieved will have us dropping any and all scripts, scriptures and labels coming purely from the absolute.

[SteveK]

Hi ChristaPaloma,


It's a few minutes into Shabbat here in Israel. I will make this post, and then I'm shutting down until after Shabbat.


ChristaPaloma

OK...but I see that as a script to effect movement of consciousness in time.
The reality being as dense as it was, got mired to a point of not effecting that. Life moved on, and many other scripts were brought into play.

I know. Tell me about it. It's called the diaspora Jews and their never ending dramatic series of "Have Torah. Will Travel". I wouldn't call it a "movement" of consciousness in time. The Jewish psyche has never had that movement of consciousness to put God into State, but only a fixation on that very old, old, old, old, old, old ... normal behavioural human tradition of having "gods and religion". In this way, one can satisfy his personal spiritul needs, and not
have to worry about the reality or unreality of the gods which, or God Who, he is worshipping.


ChristaPaloma

At this point, we can safely say that nations themselves are divisive. The reunification of nations can no longer occur under one nation for what we have done with it from the getgo....god at this point will have to reveal through all current concepts in order to reunify humanity...that will ultimately require the relinquishment of all claims to labels of any kind. We will come through the programs to speak to people, but we will not wear the program.

I have said again, and again, again that from the poison must come the derivative for a cure. And, remember well what you said here, ChristaPaloma, about the reality of the transition that we must all go through. TRANSITION along a contiguous (Condoleeza Rice has made this word repulsive to me)
pathway. A pathway which never breaks off. It will be a contiguous pathway not one of dreams into the future, but one from the real origin of where we are now.


ChristaPaloma

Nations are divisive to the body of god.
The Jewish religious movements are divisive to the unification of the Jewish people, but the same can be said of any group. Christianity is the same...as all religions harbor separation by human nature. God must be pulled back to express through the individual as a reunification of the father with the son. This can be effected through any religion or spiritual practice, but reunification achieved will have us dropping any and all scripts, scriptures and labels coming purely from the absolute.

The individual reunification of the father with the son (AV-BEN) is a very Jewish concept from the Zohar. But, it's an issue that I must clarify with expert Torah scholars. Your Christian belief in Jesus as God, or the ultimate in the Father-Son unification, is not a concept originated out of idolatry.
Your Christian roots are Jewish. However, you must also understand that such object relation of a man to be God is forbidden in the Torah:

Deuteronomy 4:10 - 4:20

... the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horev, when the Lord said to me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. And you came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire to the heart of heaven, with darkness , clouds, and thick darkness. And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire: you heard the voice of words, but saw no form; only a voice. ... Take therefore good heed to yourselves; for you saw no manner of form on the day that the Lord spoke to you in Horev out of the midst of the fire: lest you become corrupt, and make a carved idol, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of any thing that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth; and lest thou lift up thy eyes to heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, thou shouldst be misled to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord the God has allotted to all the nations under the whole heaven. But the Lord has taken you, and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Mitzrayim, to be to him a people of inheritance, as you are this day.


Deuteronomy 13:2 - 13:5

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, of which he spoke to thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou has not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God puts you to the proof, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul..."


What's an absolute point of origin for our TRANSITION? God gave us Jews that origin. It is absolutely reality based on an ABSOLUTELY REAL JEWISH CONTIGUOUS HOMELAND, and sets the stage for a contiguous pathway for transition to our actualizing that union with Him, and for us Jews to lead the way for the other nations.

DEUTERONOMY (6:20-25):

If your child asks you tomorrow saying, "What are the testimonies and the decrees and the ordinances that HaShem, our God, commanded you?"

You shall say to your child, "We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and HaShem took us out of Egypt with a strong hand. HaShem placed signs and wonders, great and harmful, against Egypt, against Pharaoh and against his entire household, before our eyes. And He
took us out of there in order to bring us, to give us the Land that He swore to our forefathers. HaShem commanded us to perform all these decrees, to fear HaShem, our God, for our good, all the days, to give us life, as this very day. And it will be a merit for us if we are careful to perform this entire commandment before HaShem, our God, as He commanded us.

And, the Prophets relate God's word following from that origin, and returning back to that origin and getting back onto and along that intended contiguous pathway as a united sovereign Jewish nation.

[ChristaPaloma]

It's a few minutes into Shabbat here in Israel. I will make this post, and then I'm shutting down until after Shabbat.

heh OK... not being Jewish, I am not familiar with the terms but I can still appreciate the need for time with one's god. I'll answer here and be content to wait for any response you might have.

I know. Tell me about it. It's called the diaspora Jews and their never ending dramatic series of "Have Torah. Will Travel". I wouldn't call it a "movement" of consciousness in time. The Jewish psyche has never had that movement of consciousness to put God into State, but only a fixation on that very old, old, old, old, old, old ... normal behavioural human tradition of having "gods and religion". In this way, one can satisfy his personal spiritul needs, and not have to worry about the reality or unreality of the gods which, or God Who, he is worshipping.

I can appreciate your own space in that. It is the springboard through which your own god will come as the individual expression of "I AM THAT I AM".
It is however my view, that that same expression will find it's way to the surface of reality though the many diverse paths we have created through the different cultures on the globe. I have not studied the Judaic origins all that much, but I do believe they hold some sort of key for re-unification, and yet I do not think it is the only key. I read once, a few years back and can't remember the source, but it was clearly one I thought to be acceptable lol...that the Avraham, Jesus and Muhammed were all part of one system in bringing forth that re-unificaion. It did not elaborate and I can't even say why I felt it to be accurate and made sense (I've since lost the train of thought on it) but it makes sense from the Unity consciousness aspect alone.
It is good that you move so strongly in your own understanding of your religious heritage.

I have said again, and again, again that from the poison must come the derivative for a cure.
I agree and yet that takes us to concepts of the reality and truth itself.
Ideas such as reincarnation, and the "diaspora" of the original Jewish nations out into the world throug many incarnations. The blood lines are mixed and yet it sounds as if you are referencing a segregated "untouched" grouping. Hard to say if that were even possible. Is it there by your understanding?

And, remember well what you said here, ChristaPaloma, about the reality of the transition that we must all go through. TRANSITION along a contiguous (Condoleeza Rice has made this word repulsive to me)
pathway. A pathway which never breaks off. It will be a contiguous pathway not one of dreams into the future, but one from the real origin of where we are now.

hhmmm there is a lot of reflecting on that. Lots of questions...contiguous as in time? or relating to souls?...
And the pathway that never breaks off... maybe it has to...maybe the "transition" is actually transformation such as was modelled by the Christ in the resurrection/ascension process. I believe those to be sciences that we cannot effect for lack of being able to make them repeat patterns in the reality, and that it is the effecting of that as a repeat pattern that allows us to speak the science of it.

The individual reunification of the father with the son (AV-BEN) is a very Jewish concept from the Zohar. But, it's an issue that I must clarify with expert Torah scholars. Your Christian belief in Jesus as God, or the ultimate in the Father-Son unification, is not a concept originated out of idolatry. Your Christian roots are Jewish.

Yes I follow all of that.... although I had no idea it was a Jewish concept.
However, you must also understand that such object relation of a man to be God is forbidden in the Torah:

Yes I understand that.
Again...the Torah... from whence did it come on the lanscape of time....

The only thing that makes sense to me of this whole universe is that we are in fact the god that we pray to, co-creator through which god lives and moves and has it's being, within and without of the created reality.
It also resolves the paradox that the infinte can be contained within the finite.

What's an absolute point of origin for our TRANSITION? God gave us Jews that origin. It is absolutely reality based on an ABSOLUTELY REAL JEWISH CONTIGUOUS HOMELAND, and sets the stage for a contiguous pathway for transition to our actualizing that union with Him, and for us Jews to lead the way for the other nations.

Actually.... it is YOUR point of origin, but it may be that other parts of life can give witness to other than that.... It is unquestioned here there was a movement of creator to enter the reality through that script, but there may very well be other doorways created by creator since then. No human can have a monopoly on god, so when other religions speak of their own sacred origins, they are not without merit in god. I honor all the many paths as valid instruments.

And, the Prophets relate God's word following from that origin, and returning back to that origin and getting back onto and along that intended contiguous pathway as a united sovereign Jewish nation.

So, that is looping back to where we started, and where your own strength in god is to be found. I can only give reverence to your devotion to that.
-christa

[SteveK]

Hi ChristaPaloma,

ChristaPaloma

I can appreciate your own space in that. It is the springboard through which your own god will come as the individual expression of "I AM THAT I AM".
It is however my view, that that same expression will find it's way to the surface of reality though the many diverse paths we have created through the different cultures on the globe. I have not studied the Judaic origins all that much, but I do believe they hold some sort of key for re-unification, and yet I do not think it is the only key. I read once, a few years back and can't remember the source, but it was clearly one I thought to be acceptable lol...that the Avraham, Jesus and Muhammed were all part of one system in bringing forth that re-unificaion. It did not elaborate and I can't even say why I felt it to be accurate and made sense (I've since lost the train of thought on it) but it makes sense from the Unity consciousness aspect alone.
It is good that you move so strongly in your own understanding of your religious heritage.

I think the key issue here is the diverse origins of which you note.
But, onto what common pathway to such re-unification must all of us turn or be turned? I think that you are well aware of God's word for His designation of the future of Israel and Jerusalem as the junction to such re-unification with Him. And, God's word has also explicitly positioned the united sovereign Jewish People in Israel, at some future time, in such a leadership role for the world. And, that leadership role can be realized only through a Torah based government. Christians have their rancid "Replacement Theology", but groups such as the Christian Zionists are trying to come to grips with the roots of their faith, the Jewish heritage, as was originally intended:

The New Testament: Romans

VERSE 17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
VERSE 18: Don't boast against the branches. But if thou exult yourself over them, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Tragically, the origins are currently so diverse among just the Christians, whose populations measure in terms of portions of the planet Earth, and who don't yet subscribe to this simple tenet of their faith.


ChristaPaloma

I agree and yet that takes us to concepts of the reality and truth itself.
Ideas such as reincarnation, and the "diaspora" of the original Jewish nations out into the world throug many incarnations. The blood lines are mixed and yet it sounds as if you are referencing a segregated "untouched" grouping. Hard to say if that were even possible. Is it there by your understanding?

The Jews have carried their ancient heritage through the centuries.
All the "mish-mosh" what you see now among the Jews can be sorted out and re-aligned. What's lacking now is the national Torah leadership for Israel to do it. Without this national Torah leadership, the Jewish religious movements and Rabbinic dynasties will continue with their anarchy and run amok with their self-interests. But, from this poison must come the derivative for this cure. I don't have a clue as to what the distillation process will be.



ChristaPaloma

hhmmm there is a lot of reflecting on that. Lots of questions...contiguous as in time? or relating to souls?...
And the pathway that never breaks off... maybe it has to...maybe the "transition" is actually transformation such as was modelled by the Christ in the resurrection/ascension process. I believe those to be sciences that we cannot effect for lack of being able to make them repeat patterns in the reality, and that it is the effecting of that as a repeat pattern that allows us to speak the science of it.

I think that we can and should use both concerning "contiguity", but not interchangeably, "transition in time" and "transformation of souls". Though, the study of "souls" is not exactly my primary topic. There is a good book from the Jewish perspective (there are zillions of books from the Jewish perspective) which I am reading: "Anatomy of the Soul" from the teachings of Rebbe Nachman of Breslov Chassidism, by Rabbi Chaim Kramer, refer to www.breslov.org.

Concerning science, a mathematician told me a good story about the difference between a scientist and a mathematician in coming to the root terms in problem solving:

Problem Part A:

A pail of water is one room. A stove is in a second room. Heat the water.

The scientist takes the pail of water from the first room, brings it to the second room, and heats the pail of water.

The mathematician solves the problem in the exact same way.


Problem Part B:

The pail of water is now moved to the second room in which is the stove.
Again, heat the water.

The scientist takes the pail of water now in the second room and heats the water.

The mathematician takes the pail of water and brings it back to the first room, and then takes it into the second room to heat the water.

My root terms are based on the ancient Jewish heritage as passed unbroken through the centuries. Christians have shifted the terms. I will have to bring back the terms to the root source.


ChristaPaloma

Yes I follow all of that.... although I had no idea it [Father-Son] was a Jewish concept.

My edit is in [].
There is a small book from the Zohar called the "Sifra De'Tzniuta" or
"The Book of the Hidden" (reference to the Zohar given as: II,176ff)
The Zohar is 2,000 years, but the knowledge is much older, having been written down by Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai. Here is a small quote which I took from another Jewish text (in English) concerning this book in regard to the "Father-Son" concept. The Zohar is written in Aramaic. Remember, that the Zohar is about deep revelations of the Torah. You will recognize it as commentary on Genesis 1:1.

The fifth chapter of Sifra De'Tzniuta states: "In the beginning, the Lord created." 'In the beginning' is a complete-statement; 'He created' is a half-statement. Father and son. Hidden and revealed. Upper Eden, which is hidden and concealed. Lower Eden.


ChristaPaloma

Yes I understand that [Torah injunction against an object or image attributed to God,- namely Jesus].
Again...the Torah... from whence did it come on the lanscape of time....

My edit is in the [].
Again, the Jewish People must think and act like mathematicians and not scientists. The Torah is living regardless of our transition in time or "transformation in souls". All problem solving must go back to the root source definitions of the originating point in time.


ChristaPaloma

The only thing that makes sense to me of this whole universe is that we are in fact the god that we pray to, co-creator through which god lives and moves and has it's being, within and without of the created reality.
It also resolves the paradox that the infinte can be contained within the finite.

Though, we all think that we are doing God a big favor by acknowledging His existence as if His existence is separate from ours, when our existence is nothing but the grace of His will.

If only the infinite of the diaspora Jews could be in transition and transformation back to the finite of their being contained in their sovereign Homeland here in Israel.


ChristaPaloma

Actually.... it is YOUR point of origin, but it may be that other parts of life can give witness to other than that.... It is unquestioned here there was a movement of creator to enter the reality through that script, but there may very well be other doorways created by creator since then. No human can have a monopoly on god, so when other religions speak of their own sacred origins, they are not without merit in god. I honor all the many paths as valid instruments.

The Jews, and even as His Chosen People, were never intended to be the bouncers for "Club God". But, as I have already indicated, the future leadership is in the hands of the united sovereign Jewish People, who have been given by God the ACE card to play. Especially the Christians are avid readers of the "Old Testament" Prophets, who speak so of God's will.


ChristaPaloma

So, that is looping back to where we started, and where your own strength in god is to be found. I can only give reverence to your devotion to that.

Yup. SteveK is my name and repetition is my game:

And, the Prophets relate God's word following from that origin, and returning back to that origin and getting back onto and along that intended contiguous pathway as a united sovereign Jewish nation:

DEUTERONOMY (6:20-25):

If your child asks you tomorrow saying, "What are the testimonies and the decrees and the ordinances that HaShem, our God, commanded you?"

You shall say to your child, "We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and HaShem took us out of Egypt with a strong hand. HaShem placed signs and wonders, great and harmful, against Egypt, against Pharaoh and against his entire household, before our eyes. And He
took us out of there in order to bring us, to give us the Land that He swore to our forefathers. HaShem commanded us to perform all these decrees, to fear HaShem, our God, for our good, all the days, to give us life, as this very day. And it will be a merit for us if we are careful to perform this entire commandment before HaShem, our God, as He commanded us.

[Mira]

SteveK! You should NOT talk until your rabbi tells you that it's ok. Right now, you are just spewing out nonsense and trying to tie it into your narrow little agenda. It's all just a bunch of noise!!!!

[SteveK]

SteveK! You should NOT talk until your rabbi tells you that it's ok. Right now, you are just spewing out nonsense and trying to tie it into your narrow little agenda. It's all just a bunch of noise!!!!

Mira,

Has your Rabbi told you to tell me that?

[Mira]

Mira,

Has your Rabbi told you to tell me that?
SteveK,

It's obvious that you have an untrained mind. It's like watching a monkey play piano.

[SteveK]

SteveK,

It's obvious that you have an untrained mind. It's like watching a monkey play piano.

Mira,

Let's see the gems of wisdom fall out of your mouth on the subject.

[KettleWhistle]

Since you mentioned them, here are some gems of wisdom, for those with too much time on their hands: http://p203.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7

[KettleWhistle]

About Lilith:

What I heard from various people, including older family members, she is pretty much your typical broom-flying child-snatching up-to-no-good witch. Tanah doesn't say anything about her, although some people baselessly believe that there are verses that point to her.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article about Lilith. Keep in mind that like everything else in Wikipedia, it may or may not be entirely correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

[SteveK]

Since you mentioned them, here are some gems of wisdom, for those with too much time on their hands: http://p203.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7

I am sure Mira will think about it and have something intelligent to tell me.
Unlike you, KW, Mira has a real commitment to Israel.

[Mira]

Mira,

Let's see the gems of wisdom fall out of your mouth on the subject.

I'll give you baskets of diamonds and emeralds, SteveK on one condition:

You have to tell me what I'm thinking right now.

[SteveK]

I'll give you baskets of diamonds and emeralds, SteveK on one condition:

You have to tell me what I'm thinking right now.

Mira,

You don't know how to express yourself?

[Mira]

You don't know how to express yourself?

Nope! That's not what I'm thinking. Guess again.

[SteveK]

Nope! That's not what I'm thinking. Guess again.

Mira,

Guess what? At this point, I don't care.

[KettleWhistle]

Unlike you, KW, Mira has a real commitment to Israel.REALLY? How so?

[SteveK]

REALLY? How so?


You don't live here in Israel as does Mira.
Why should I take you more seriously than I would Mira,- for issues related
to Israel?

[KettleWhistle]

You don't live here in Israel as does Mira.
Yes, I do. I live in Haifa. On the same street as you.

[SteveK]

Yes, I do. I live in Haifa. On the same street as you.

Tell you what, KW, I will make an exception for your case.
Stay in the diaspora. Please.

[KettleWhistle]

Will you provide me with $7,000.00 for the ticket back to L.A.? Let me know when I should stop by to pick it up.

[Mira]

Mira,

Guess what? At this point, I don't care.

SteveK, you give up so easily! I wasn’t trying to be malicious, and I apologize for the demoralizing way I went about this. The point is that if my thoughts are beyond your knowledge, then how much more difficult is it for our human perception to conceive of G-d, the ultimate “Other.” We are told that we were created in “His image” and yet we are not G-d for “God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent.” Number 23:19. Through every personal encounter that we have with one another, we are confronting the very image of G-d. That image calls out to us and says, "thou shall not kill" and "give justice to me" and "show mercy to me." Saying this over the internet adds an additional level of abstraction, but if you can “see” that through our personal encounters with every human being, there is a revelation of G-d that is presented through the “Other,” you will understand why Hillel said,“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole torah. The rest is commentary.” In fact, the truly religious person is evident in how he or she interacts socially. Remember that when you consider how you treat people on this board. ***That's all that I am going to say about that.

What we are looking for when we read torah and when we perform the commandments, are revelations about the identity of the Creator. We study torah like you would study a person’s face. For a truly pious Jew, performing the commandments doesn’t come from a sense of obligation so much as it comes from a desire to understand the Creator. That is why pious Jews believe that even a small mitzvah brings a Jew closer to revelation of the Divine source of Creation. Our commandments are not based on reasons (“Do so because…”), but an encounter. In Judaism, the individual isn’t sacrificed to what is universal or objective because the person who faces me is not completely reducible to categories or generalizations. If I were standing in front of you, then perhaps you could look for clues in my facial expressions. Do I look happy, sad, scared…? Through these clues, part of the unknowable can be made known, assuming that you are able to interpret these clues correctly. The person becomes less of an “Other” when we start to interpret and “thematize” them (this is a woman or man, young or old, rich or poor, diaspora Jew or soverign Israeli). We thematize G-d in this same way. The more the person speaks to us, the more they reveal about themselves, and the more they become known to us. But ultimately, there is still the unknown that will always exist in the Other. Just as the individual is not the sum of our cognitive constructions, neither is G-d the sum of some universal construct.

[redcake]

Anyone else wondering if SteveK had to put on a wig before posting as ChristaPaloma?

[SteveK]

SteveK, you give up so easily! I wasn’t trying to be malicious, and I apologize for the demoralizing way I went about this. The point is that if my thoughts are beyond your knowledge, then how much more difficult is it for our human perception to conceive of G-d, the ultimate “Other.” ... But ultimately, there is still the unknown that will always exist in the Other. Just as the individual is not the sum of our cognitive constructions, neither is G-d the sum of some universal construct.


Hi Mira,

I can relate to Israelis like you who stay in Israeli. Those Israelis, like Ariksan, who transplant themselves to the diaspora seem to develop root-rot.

Let's say that we Israelis, at least, truly believed the story of Passover about God taking the Jews out of Egypt and bringing them into their own homeland, here, where we live now, and Ariksan doesn't.

Now, if we can believe such a story about the reality of the Living God of Israel, then why shouldn't we put God as the number one priority of our State agenda?

Or, what keeps us telling ourselves and the world that Passover story, without really believing it or in God, Himself?

Wouldn't you say that we should relate to the Living God of Israel as really the living entity that He is, and that means as the political God and not just the personal One,- and instead of just one more ingredient to roll into some intellectual strudel?

[SteveK]

Will you provide me with $7,000.00 for the ticket back to L.A.? Let me know when I should stop by to pick it up.

KW,

I don't want to reach your post counter of 2,738, and then realize that 2,000 of my posts were in the class of your post quoted here.

[ChristaPaloma]

Anyone else wondering if SteveK had to put on a wig before posting as ChristaPaloma?

Sorry to disappoint you redcake...
Never met Steve before...
My views are essentially different from his, so I'm not sure why you even go there?
Why would a nice Jewish boy take on the moniker of "The Christ Dove"??

[redcake]

For the same reason someone who claims not to know what Shabbat is would think they know anything about nice Jewish boys. (or anything pertaining to Judaism period). Something ain't right.

[Mira]

KW,

I don't want to reach your post counter of 2,738, and then realize that 2,000 of my posts were in the class of your post quoted here.
SteveK,
I think you need to be banned.

[frizzer1]

the truly religious person is evident in how he or she interacts socially.

Mira..Hope you don't mind if I just quote one line out of your impressive post.It's just that this line struck me as so very true.
It seems to me that the athiest who treats everyone with kindness and generousity is closer to G-d than those who wear tsitsit or sheitls and yet are rude and arrogant.

[Mira]

For the same reason someone who claims not to know what Shabbat is would think they know anything about nice Jewish boys. (or anything pertaining to Judaism period). Something ain't right.

Ach! So here is my impression of SteveK. Assuming that what he says about himself is true, the guy is older and he moved to Israel for ideological reasons at a time when Zionism was still very romantic. But Zionism is waning around the world and in Israel. People are tired and feel demoralized by the conflict and bad economy. There are so many problems and the country is so small that the place can feel like a pressure cooker. A lot of Israelis who can, leave, if possible, for the United States. That's why he says that American Jews are the biggest threat to Israel. It's because American Jews show Israelis that it is possible to be successful, happy and Jewish somewhere else. But rather than open himself up to vulnurability and say all of this, he lashes out at people and trys to demoralize them. It's all very sad.

[ChristaPaloma]

For the same reason someone who claims not to know what Shabbat is would think they know anything about nice Jewish boys. (or anything pertaining to Judaism period). Something ain't right.

lol...I don't remember claiming to know anything about Judaism?

[Mira]

hi frizzer,


Mira..Hope you don't mind if I just quote one line out of your impressive post.It's just that this line struck me as so very true.
It seems to me that the athiest who treats everyone with kindness and generousity is closer to G-d than those who wear tsitsit or sheitls and yet are rude and arrogant.

I was exhausted last night when I read your flattering post. I only came on to quickly respond to redcake and then I saw it and responded too quickly.


those who wear tsitsit or sheitls and yet are rude and arrogant.
They are like the "rich" man who because of his standing in the community is given a seat in the front of his synagogue, but because he wants to teach the poor Jews a lesson on humility, chooses to sit in the very back. He spends the entire service looking around the room to see who is noticing him. Finally the "poor" Jew sitting next to him leans over and says, "You know, you should have sat in the front."

-It's a hasidic story and I can't remember where it came from.

It seems to me that the athiest who treats everyone with kindness and generousity is closer to G-d
I don't think so, frizzer, since even the "evil" inclination can motivate people to do good. Think of all the human development and charity that can be done by the type of person who wants their name immortalized on a plaque in front of a building. Does the mere act of doing good bring such a person closer to G-d?

[KSO]

It's because American Jews show Israelis that it is possible to be successful, happy and Jewish somewhere else. But rather than open himself up to vulnurability and say all of this, he lashes out at people and trys to demoralize them. It's all very sad.

Unfortunately American jews show the opposite, the fact is the ammount of Jews in the US is declining with every year, Most American jews intermarry, and a big percentage of those who don't are still not practicing any traditions, this is probably an unfortunate result of an entire history of conflict and today for many people judaism can't exist without anti-semitism or anti-judaism, and for many people in Israel their definition of being jewish is being anti-arab , which brings us to the question can Israel remain jewish without a constant conflict or threat, I can't say I know the answer.

[redcake]

It's because American Jews show Israelis that it is possible to be successful, happy and Jewish somewhere else.

I think that's somewhat of a given seeing as most of Israel's population come from families who lived very full lives outside of Israel, give or take a pogrom or two. It explains why the Jewish population in Germany continues to increase. They all have families abroad. It's ingrained in the culture to travel for extensive periods of time after doing service, right? It's a bit like how the Amish send their kids out to see the real world. Unfortunately a lot of the Americans drawn towards living in Israel are fringe outcasts looking for an identity. It's the same character flaw that drives so many Jews into cults, or perverted versions of Buddhism. Some get mixed up with Scientology, some just move to a Kibbutz. No wonder Esc is huuuuge in Israel. I bet Steve's bought a few of those tapes. They're floaters, and Judiasm is so foreign to them, that they're drawn to the faux exoticsm of Israel. This seems to be the case particularly with Jews who moved to Israel in the mid-70's at a time when the nation lacked the cultural comforts of the States. They really don't want to be there, and there's nothing forcing them to be there, since we're talking about a group who often aren't observant Jews. Haifa isn't Samaria!!!! People who make Aliyah to fight a population war, and be closer to Biblical land don't live in Haifa. So here you have someone who feels so guilty for his lack of dedication, and inability to put his money where his mouth is, he creates this elaborate sub-reality that doesn't exist. Standards that have no basis in the religion, because what it comes down to, is people like Steve make it very clear they do not like real Judaism. I mean, why move to Israel to nurture your Jewish identity when you can't even keep the Sabbath. Living in Israel and following in the footsteps of Moses who was banished from the land is a bit of a contradiction. But you're right.... what else is left but to blame the secular world for it's temptations? You would have to question the mentality of anyone drawn to moving to South Central in the 80's, and the same can be said for the lure of joining ones tribe in Israel.

Paloma - If you didn't know what Shabbat is, you wouldn't use the term The Living God, or talk like you listen to the same lecture tapes as SteveK. Don't insult us with a half assed characted.

[KettleWhistle]

Ach! So here is my impression of SteveK. Assuming that what he says about himself is true, the guy is older and he moved to Israel for ideological reasons at a time when Zionism was still very romantic. But Zionism is waning around the world and in Israel. People are tired and feel demoralized by the conflict and bad economy.

Wrong. People are demoralized by the lousy govenmental politics, and by the lousy politics of American, Canadian, and Western European Jewish leaders, that discourage the feelings of patriotism and pride in being Jewish soldiers, and who work to eliminate the Jewish (not to be confused with Judaistic) culture.

[KettleWhistle]

For the same reason someone who claims not to know what Shabbat is would think they know anything about nice Jewish boys. (or anything pertaining to Judaism period). Something ain't right. Most of my ethnic Jewish girlfriends and three of my former ethnic Jewish fiances knew nothing about Shabbat. Nor did I care to tell them. We had more important things to do on our Fridays than to participate in religious rituals.

[redcake]

Don't tell me you're one of those crackpots who believe in the secret sybiosis between anti-semitism, zionism, and assimilation. It's certainly not hip to be Jewish and proud, but Jewish culture is everywhere.

You proposed to three woman in a row who claimed Jewishness as their ethnicity who didn't even know what Shabbat is ? I'm sure they at least knew in general terms what it is...and once you found that out, it explains why you broke it off with them. It's part of our cultural literacy, like knowing what a "communion" is, and certainly a basic requirement for anyone who proclaims a passing interest in Theology, let alone the advanced course in Theological mythology. Anyway, in that regard you and Steve could share Paloma wigs as far as I'm concerned...but I wouldn't give you a red cent for everytime you work "Jewish folklore" into a sentence.

[Mira]

Wrong. People are demoralized by the lousy govenmental politics, and by the lousy politics of American, Canadian, and Western European Jewish leaders, that discourage the feelings of patriotism and pride in being Jewish soldiers, and who work to eliminate the Jewish (not to be confused with Judaistic) culture.

...as I said..."conflict" and "problems"....waning Zionism.... :rolleyes:

But thanks for the reply.

[Mira]

Unfortunately American jews show the opposite, the fact is the ammount of Jews in the US is declining with every year, Most American jews intermarry, and a big percentage of those who don't are still not practicing any traditions, this is probably an unfortunate result of an entire history of conflict and today for many people judaism can't exist without anti-semitism or anti-judaism, and for many people in Israel their definition of being jewish is being anti-arab , which brings us to the question can Israel remain jewish without a constant conflict or threat, I can't say I know the answer.

There's always JDATE! :cool: Seriously...yes, assimilation is the problem whenever you are a minority and when you are a majority, you more easily take your identity for granted. Can Israel remain Jewish without a constant conflict or threat? It's hard to imagine Israel not in some conflict or experiencing some threat. I'm a little more cynical than redcake.

[KettleWhistle]

...as I said..."conflict" and "problems"....waning Zionism.... :rolleyes:

But thanks for the reply.

Zionism is not waning because of the conflict or the "problems."

[KettleWhistle]

Don't tell me you're one of those crackpots who believe in the secret sybiosis between anti-semitism, zionism, and assimilation. It's certainly not hip to be Jewish and proud, but Jewish culture is everywhere.

I think you are one of those crackpots who believe that resentment of Judaistic rituals is anti-Semitic.

I am Jewish and proud. But I am not Judaistic. I am a Jew because my people come from Israel, because I am a decendant of the ancient Israelites. Eating pork and lobster and going out on Friday nights isn't going to change my ethnic background. My Jewish culture isn't that of shtetler-dhimmi synagogueing. It is that of proud, in-your-face nationalism.

[Mira]

Zionism is not waning because of the conflict or the "problems."

That's not what I said. Oh forget it.

[SteveK]

[QUOTE=ChristaPaloma]Sorry to disappoint you redcake...
Never met Steve before...
My views are essentially different from his, so I'm not sure why you even go there?
Why would a nice Jewish boy take on the moniker of "The Christ Dove"??[/QUOTE

Hi ChristaPaloma,

Don't be initimidated by this 'Redcake-headache' who swims in a NYC Jewish fishbowl. Jews or converts (my guess) like this one are nothing more than international spiritual jokes, who in standing up "to be counted", score only one more reason for anti-semitism in the world.

I think it's worth going some more distance with your train of thought.

[redcake]

Yeayea. Go take your Yarmulke for a spin around the block, and then come back to post once you've put your rhetoric into action for once. Now I've been accused of being both Orthodox, and a Convert on this board. Pretty funny.

Kettle - I like a good Italian salami sandwhich too, but that doesn't prohibit me from understanding the complexities within the diaspora. Are you a George Soros fan all of a sudden?

[SteveK]

Yeayea. Go take your Yarmulke for a spin around the block, and then come back to post once you've put your rhetoric into action for once. Now I've been accused of being both Orthodox, and a Convert on this board. Pretty funny.

Kettle - I like a good Italian salami sandwhich too, but that doesn't prohibit me from understanding the complexities within the diaspora. Are you a George Soros fan all of a sudden?

Redcake,

You will find solace with the forum members, and their neuroses and psychoses, at: www.chabadtalk.com .

[KettleWhistle]

Are you a George Soros fan all of a sudden?No.

[Canajew]

[QUOTE=ChristaPaloma]Sorry to disappoint you redcake...
Never met Steve before...
My views are essentially different from his, so I'm not sure why you even go there?
Why would a nice Jewish boy take on the moniker of "The Christ Dove"??[/QUOTE

Hi ChristaPaloma,

Don't be initimidated by this 'Redcake-headache' who swims in a NYC Jewish fishbowl. Jews or converts (my guess) like this one are nothing more than international spiritual jokes, who in standing up "to be counted", score only one more reason for anti-semitism in the world.

I think it's worth going some more distance with your train of thought.

haven't read the thread or what precipitated or followed this, but it is a personal attack and is not permitted.

Stop.

[redcake]

Redcake,

You will find solace ..... at: www.chabadtalk.com .

Well shucks, I'm fine right here, but now I feel obligated to point you towards http://www.schizophrenia-help.com/forum/ . I'm sure they're used to the lashing out.

[frizzer1]

hi frizzer,



I was exhausted last night when I read your flattering post. I only came on to quickly respond to redcake and then I saw it and responded too quickly.

Haven't I told you that you shouldn't be staying up so late? :)


those who wear tsitsit or sheitls and yet are rude and arrogant.
They are like the "rich" man who because of his standing in the community is given a seat in the front of his synagogue, but because he wants to teach the poor Jews a lesson on humility, chooses to sit in the very back. He spends the entire service looking around the room to see who is noticing him. Finally the "poor" Jew sitting next to him leans over and says, "You know, you should have sat in the front."

Tsitsit are a reminder of the mitzvot and to do them,no? Those who wear them and behave badly are frauds and not truly religious no matter how observant they think themselves to be.

It seems to me that the athiest who treats everyone with kindness and generousity is closer to G-d
I don't think so, frizzer, since even the "evil" inclination can motivate people to do good. Think of all the human development and charity that can be done by the type of person who wants their name immortalized on a plaque in front of a building. Does the mere act of doing good bring such a person closer to G-d?

Actually yes, I think it does.Regardless of intent,doing good is doing G-d's will.And the athiest who does good for no other reason than doing what is right is imo closer to G-d and G-d's desire for mankind than the believer who acts badly.
JMHO.

[Canajew]

Quote:

It seems to me that the athiest who treats everyone with kindness and generousity is closer to G-d
I don't think so, frizzer, since even the "evil" inclination can motivate people to do good. Think of all the human development and charity that can be done by the type of person who wants their name immortalized on a plaque in front of a building. Does the mere act of doing good bring such a person closer to G-d?


Actually yes, I think it does.Regardless of intent,doing good is doing G-d's will.And the athiest who does good for no other reason than doing what is right is imo closer to G-d and G-d's desire for mankind than the believer who acts badly.
JMHO.


first, people need to tone down the personal attacks. Address issues.

Second, this is a most fundamental point, isn't it? The first argument is essentially a variant of the argument it was attempting to discredit. The issue is whether good action motivated by selfish ends qualifies as "rightous" or something to that effect and brings the individual performing that act closer to God or whatever metric of measurment you wish to measure goodness or nobility upon.

Doing good deeds because a person wants to be recognized for doing so is good, but not as good as someone who does good deeds purely for the sake of performing good deeds. The first statement applies equally to those who wish God to recognize them for doing good as it is for those who wish other people to recognizing them for doing good. A person who does things to get their name on a plaque is no better or worse than those who do good deeds to placate their god - both are undertaking altruistic type actions for private ends (whether those ends exist or not).

Isn't there a "10 levels of tzdakah" or something that effectively ranks the quality of altruistic behaviour? I remember reading it once and thinking "man those Jewish wise people are smart".

[Mediocrates]

"Doing good" is, as we say, a no-op. Few people would argue that being ethical and good and decent and compassionate is something to debate. As the sign I saw on a Baptist Church in rural Franklin county NC on Sunday said: "Thou Art Inexcusable".

[Mira]

Isn't there a "10 levels of tzdakah" or something that effectively ranks the quality of altruistic behaviour? I remember reading it once and thinking "man those Jewish wise people are smart".
Rambam's Eight Levels of Charity:

1. The highest level of charity is giving a fellow Jew a gift, a loan, or a job so that he can become financially independent.

2. Giving to the poor in such a way that the benefactor does not know the identity of the recipient nor the recipient that of the benefactor.

3. The benefactor knows the identity of the recipient but the recipient does not know the benefactor.

4. The recipient knows the benefactor but the benefactor does not know the recipient.

5. Giving money directly to a poor person before he asks.

6. Giving after the poor person asks.

7. Giving less than the proper sum, but cheerfully.

8. Giving begrudgingly is the lowest level.

http://chabad-mequon.org/rambam.html#Charity:

[Canajew]

Rambam's Eight Levels of Charity:

1. The highest level of charity is giving a fellow Jew a gift, a loan, or a job so that he can become financially independent.

2. Giving to the poor in such a way that the benefactor does not know the identity of the recipient nor the recipient that of the benefactor.

3. The benefactor knows the identity of the recipient but the recipient does not know the benefactor.

4. The recipient knows the benefactor but the benefactor does not know the recipient.

5. Giving money directly to a poor person before he asks.

6. Giving after the poor person asks.

7. Giving less than the proper sum, but cheerfully.

8. Giving begrudgingly is the lowest level.

http://chabad-mequon.org/rambam.html#Charity:

that's the one.

I would modify it, however, and replace "fellow Jew" in number one with a member of one's community, which is probably the object of the original, as Jews were generally isolated in communities at the time. Giving to a fellow Jew to start a business or become independent is no more worthy of praise than giving to a christian neighbour/friend down the street whose kids play with yours to do the same.

And where does facilitating self-sufficientcy of people in third world countries and the like fit in? Would seem to be even more noble, given the more distant relationship between the giver and the benefactor.

Like people who go to volunteer building educational and health infrastructure in Africa and stuff.

[Mira]

"Doing good" is, as we say, a no-op. Few people would argue that being ethical and good and decent and compassionate is something to debate. As the sign I saw on a Baptist Church in rural Franklin county NC on Sunday said: "Thou Art Inexcusable".

The more I learn about "humanism," the more dangerous I think it is. Afterall, wasn't the Weimer Republic considered the shinning example of enlightened humanism? If you asked Hitler, he would have probably said that he was doing good for Germany. How many people really consider themselves evil? At the same time that Hitler was creating concentration camps, he was also setting up orphages. Today, don't the do-gooder humanists of the secular left debate whether suicide bombers are in fact freedom fighters? Perhaps the life of a single child is worth freeing a people from occupation? If you take G-d's laws out of the equation, ethics become subjective and you end up debating "rights." As you mentioned in another thread,

..... What knotheaded nonsense it is to think that rights exist apart from the circumstances that gave rise to them.

A "morality" like that can lead to the decision that the greater good for society is ethnic-cleansing or genocide. If the Torah does not set the standard for right and wrong, then WE do at any given point in time. In response to CanaJew's post, everyone recognizes that doing good out of love is of a higher quality than doing good out of fear. My love for my fellow human being can motivate me to do good things, but fear is what prevents me from doing harm to that person. If I lose the fear of government action, I am more inclined to cheat on my taxes. It's a slippery slope. My initial reaction to frizzer's post was agreement and at first I posted an unqualified "absolutely." But then I immedietly recognized that there is something wrong with fully supporting that view. Perhaps the "good atheist" exists in order to expose and teach humility to the fraud with the tsitsit? But overall, I remain wary of such a person.

[Canajew]

The more I learn about "humanism," the more dangerous I think it is. Afterall, wasn't the Weimer Republic considered the shinning example of enlightened humanism? If you asked Hitler, he would have probably said that he was doing good for Germany.


you are mixing up points of view. The comment on hitler is reletivistic. There is no reason why humanism cannot be as absolutist as some other top-down undertsanding of morality. i'm sure the catholics who lit Jews on fire thought that they were the shining example of religious morality.

What I think you really mean to argue (or you should be arguing) is that it is necessary that there is some absoilutism in morality, some objective criteria for assessing morality remains necessary.

While an objective assessment of morality based on humanism is more difficult than just relying on some book with a bunch of random "thou shalls" and "thou shall nots", a proper assessment under this ruberic is likely closer to "true" morality (whatever that means).

Basically, the root principle would be that whatever leads to the benfit of people (where those benefits, unfortunately, must be assessed based on other criteria, such as whether those benefits are 'legitimate') is good, and what detracts from it is bad.

Course needs to be modified with a discount factor and time horizon for future generations etc, but the fundamental paradigm is much mroe sound than "Jesus says" or some other doctrinal BS.


How many people really consider themselves evil? At the same time that Hitler was creating concentration camps, he was also setting up orphages. Today, don't the do-gooder humanists of the secular left debate whether suicide bombers are in fact freedom fighters? Perhaps the life of a single child is worth freeing a people from occupation? If you take G-d's laws out of the equation, ethics become subjective and you end up debating "rights." As you mentioned in another thread,


again, there is nothing at all inherent about humanism that causes this anything more than there is something about religious morality that leads to abject depravity. They are just wrong. Would be nice if there was a god who layed it all out and made it easy for people to know what is right and what is not, but god is made up, and those books and people whiich claim to tell us what god wants cannot be relied upon as a guide to maximal objective morality.


A "morality" like that can lead to the decision that the greater good for society is ethnic-cleansing or genocide.


which it might be, for example, if there was a contageous virus which thereatened all of humanity. Course Islam also seems to have certain ... genocidal implications, at least in practice, and it is about as far away from humanistic in principles as you can get.


If the Torah does not set the standard for right and wrong, then WE do at any given point in time. In response to CanaJew's post, everyone recognizes that doing good out of love is of a higher quality than doing good out of fear. My love for my fellow human being can motivate me to do good things, but fear is what prevents me from doing harm to that person. If I lose the fear of government action, I am more inclined to cheat on my taxes. It's a slippery slope. My initial reaction to frizzer's post was agreement and at first I posted an unqualified "absolutely." But then I immedietly recognized that there is something wrong with fully supporting that view. Perhaps the "good atheist" exists in order to expose and teach humility to the fraud with the tsitsit? But overall, I remain wary of such a person.

but it shouldn't be fear that motivates you not to do bad, but a sense of obligation and empathy towards others. Instilling THOSE principles in young people is the ebst we can hope to do to raise the level of morality in society, not to brainwash them to obedience to god's will.

[SteveK]

... Instilling THOSE principles in young people is the ebst we can hope to do to raise the level of morality in society, not to brainwash them to obedience to god's will.

In all of your own upbringing as a Jew, you never had any faith and fear in God?

[Canajew]

In all of your own upbringing as a Jew, you never had any faith and fear in God?

sort of. I went to hebrew school and used to sing songs on my way home and think god was watching and all that stuff.

But since I started thinking about things critically, I have never believed.

There just is no reason to, other than that it is convenient. and the way I think, I can't believe things just because I want to.

[KettleWhistle]

In all of your own upbringing as a Jew, you never had any faith and fear in God?

Oh-oh, careful now Stevie. You told us you aren't wearing kippa. Do you not fear God? I suggest you rush to the kippa store post haste because otherwise God may kill you with his own sword. (Ex.22:24)

[SteveK]

sort of. I went to hebrew school and used to sing songs on my way home and think god was watching and all that stuff.

But since I started thinking about things critically, I have never believed.

There just is no reason to, other than that it is convenient. and the way I think, I can't believe things just because I want to.


I don't think that Jews don't believe in God as much as you or others might claim. I do think that you and others tend to be very embarrassed to speak about God, let alone the "Living God of Israel". Do you equate our ancient ancestors with the Romans and Greeks and their mythological gods?

[Canajew]

I don't think that Jews don't believe in God as much as you or others might claim. I do think that you and others tend to be very embarrassed to speak about God, let alone the "Living God of Israel". Do you equate our ancient ancestors with the Romans and Greeks and their mythological gods?

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow. But you can point out where I misinterpret.

I never claimed Jews don't believe in god, I claimed god is a fiction. Demographic profiles are for the statisticians.

I am not embarrassed to speak about god or the "living god of Israel" (though I know not what that is), unless god is a naked chick and is touching me in public in inappropriate places (which is a bit embarrassing, especially for girls, considering, as per doctrine, god is "everywhere").

There is a "does god exist or not" thread around here somewhere which shows you how not embarassed I am to talk about this. Only thing is in my actual (non-Internet) life I have significantly restarined my proclivity to talk about this on account of making several christian girls cry by talking about jesus as if he was just some dude.

Here's the link:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=4070

as for romans and greeks, I think monotheistic gods are more developed and certainly more cogent concepts than the zillion and one specialty gods, but that there is still no reason to believe any one variant of an explanation of reality with god over any other, and there is no reason to believe any of them other than that it makes people fell better about stuff they don't understand.

[Mira]

Would be nice if there was a god who layed it all out and made it easy for people to know what is right and what is not, but god is made up, and those books and people whiich claim to tell us what god wants cannot be relied upon as a guide to maximal objective morality.
Then I see nothing more to talk about. We are no longer looking at this through the lense of Judaism.

[SteveK]

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow. But you can point out where I misinterpret.


Do you recite the Passover story about God taking our ancestors out of Egypt and into their own land,- our Land, now The State of Israel?

What do you believe about the Passover story?

Your prior flip comments do show your embarrassment about speaking about God, and especially The Living God of Israel, Canajew. The Torah refes to Him as Chai.

[Canajew]

Then I see nothing more to talk about. We are no longer looking at this through the lense of Judaism.

:(

who said we were talking about this through the lens of Judaism? I thought we were talking about this as rational inquiring people?

But to turn it into a pseudo-religious argument:

- god wants people to be good
- god wants goodness for people more than badness

-- therefore we should endeavour to maximize goodness and minimize badness

- Goodness and badness are determined by the impact of our actions on other human beings
- when actions benefit others (in a net, objective and legitimate sense) they are good
- when actions harm others (in a net, objective and legitimate sense) they are bad

-- therefore to follow the will of god we have an obligation to aspire to humanistic moral ideals.

QED?

[Canajew]

Do you recite the Passover story about God taking our ancestors out of Egypt and into their own land,- our Land, now The State of Israel?

What do you believe about the Passover story?

Your prior flip comments do show your embarrassment about speaking about God, and especially The Living God of Israel, Canajew. The Torah refes to Him as Chai.

we recite the passover story. I always pipe up when the "contrary son" bit is read because I don't think that is the right message to children - that god will abandon them for doing what he doesn't want. There are far better ways to instill a sense of belonging and a sense of obligation to the community and ownership, responsibility for what happens to the community, into young people.

Passover is about family and community. The story is a vehicle.

But the Haggadah is a little old fashion and I think should be updated.

As for embarassment, maybe I don't understand what you mean by the term "embarrass". Am I embarrassed other of "my people" believe? Well, no, it's probably good that they do as it keeps the community tighter. And I am certianly not embarrassed by my position, as you obviously should be able to tell from my comments.

Sorry if I offend, but this is the Internet, the place for open frank discussion about ideas without account of other people's feelings.

As for the Living God of Israel, why not give me a little crash course, but maybe with less emphasis on the preaching and more on the real implications of this belief on actual people.

[SteveK]

:

therefore to follow the will of god we have an obligation to aspire to humanistic moral ideals.

QED?


You can also follow the will of your Rabbi and aspire all you want to what he wants. But, how do you demonstrate respect to your Rabbi as a person?

How would you demonstrate respect and reverence to God as a living entity, and not just as a banner for moral ideals?

[Canajew]

You can also follow the will of your Rabbi and aspire all you want to what he wants. But, how do you demonstrate respect to your Rabbi as a person?

How would you demonstrate respect and reverence to God as a living entity, and not just as a banner for moral ideals?

i think you demonstrate respect to a rabbi buy following those apsects of what he preaches that are right, and by criticizing and trying to change those that are wrong. A rabbi may have studied more, but he doesn't necessarily know more than me.

As for respecting god as a living entity, god does not exist, so that is more difficult. I would think the best way to respect god is to further His work and make this world a better place for you having been in it. Enrich the lives of those around you, and make people better off everywhere you can.

Isn't this was God would want? If it isn't, what kind of God would that be?

[SteveK]

i think you demonstrate respect to a rabbi buy following those apsects of what he preaches that are right, and by criticizing and trying to change those that are wrong. A rabbi may have studied more, but he doesn't necessarily know more than me.

As for respecting god as a living entity, god does not exist, so that is more difficult. I would think the best way to respect god is to further His work and make this world a better place for you having been in it. Enrich the lives of those around you, and make people better off everywhere you can.

Isn't this was God would want? If it isn't, what kind of God would that be?

I keep focusing on "god does not exist". Why do you think that? I mean the God of Whom we Jews are taught as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?


It's 12:00 midnight now here, so I will have to go in a few minutes.

[Mira]

:(

who said we were talking about this through the lens of Judaism? I thought we were talking about this as rational inquiring people?

But to turn it into a pseudo-religious argument:

- god wants people to be good
- god wants goodness for people more than badness

-- therefore we should endeavour to maximize goodness and minimize badness

- Goodness and badness are determined by the impact of our actions on other human beings
- when actions benefit others (in a net, objective and legitimate sense) they are good
- when actions harm others (in a net, objective and legitimate sense) they are bad

-- therefore to follow the will of god we have an obligation to aspire to humanistic moral ideals.

QED?

How about if instead of saying:

"G-d is merciful"................we say "Mercy is G-dly" or
"G-d is just"......................we say "Justice is G-dly," and
"G-d cares for the sick"......we say "caring for the sick is G-dly."

and so on....

That way, G-d for you symbolizes an attribute that we all should aspire to, rather than the all knowing overlord that you considered G-d to be when you were a boy.

[Canajew]

I keep focusing on "god does not exist". Why do you think that? I mean the God of Whom we Jews are taught as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?


It's 12:00 midnight now here, so I will have to go in a few minutes.
have a good night. If you want my reasons, see the thread I linked to - good discussion.

Essentially, there are no reasons to believe, and there are lots of reasons to believe the idea is made up. Put the two together, and I see only an extremely weak argument for adopting such an absolutist world view.

[Canajew]

How about if instead of saying:

"G-d is merciful"................we say "Mercy is G-dly" or
"G-d is just"......................we say "Justice is G-dly," and
"G-d cares for the sick"......we say "caring for the sick is G-dly."

and so on....

That way, G-d for you symbolizes an attribute that we all should aspire to, rather than the all knowing overlord that you considered G-d to be when you were a boy.

but that is just using equivocation to reach agreement, and the agreement is simply illusory.

Sure to do good can be defined as "Godly", but what is god, and why should we believe idoing good isn't "Bhudda-ly" or just the humanistic, right thing to do, or something else?

[Mira]

but that is just using equivocation to reach agreement, and the agreement is simply illusory.

Sure to do good can be defined as "Godly", but what is god, and why should we believe idoing good isn't "Bhudda-ly" or just the humanistic, right thing to do, or something else?

Because you are not a Buddhist. You're a Jew. And the goal here is to reach a common ground / language with you, since I don't see me winning you over to Judaism any more than you winning me over to Humanism.

but what is god
Consider G-d to be that which is greater than ourselves. To do something truly alturistic, you are placing the needs of someone else above your own needs. (So we are talking pure alturism here, not the kind of self-motivated good deeds that we mentioned earlier). In this sense, you are partnering with "that which is greater than oursleves."

[SteveK]

have a good night. If you want my reasons, see the thread I linked to - good discussion.

Essentially, there are no reasons to believe, and there are lots of reasons to believe the idea is made up. Put the two together, and I see only an extremely weak argument for adopting such an absolutist world view.


Yes, I sleep well every night here in God's Country.

I also covered on this thread a little discussion about the rationality of God's existence because of the absolute contradiction to human behaviour of what our ancient ancestors did in worshipping this God without any object or image relation. Only revelations by this God, Himself, could have convinced our ancestors,- a whole nation of them,- to have worshipped such a God together. Those revelations are essentially what the EXODUS and our Passover celebration are all about.

[frizzer1]

Only revelations by this God, Himself, could have convinced our ancestors,- a whole nation of them,- to have worshipped such a God together.

We could use another of those revelations right about now as Moshaich is sure taking his sweet time.

[frizzer1]

first, people need to tone down the personal attacks. Address issues.


Personal attacks??

[redcake]

Unfortunately, I don't always know what people mean by Humanist. I mean I understand what the concept is supposed to entail, but it's harder to make assumptions as we can when discussing a belief system within a prominant organized religions.

Now, I don't see much relevance the Passover story has to this conversation, but I wonder if CanaJew believes Jews wandered the dessert at all, and if so, isn't that a good example of G-d abandoning those who do not follow the word handed down ? Why else were Jews there ? We know this wandering is fundamental to the history of Jews. There's some archealogical proof of this.

Really it's not even a question of belief. The morals are ingrained in society, so either you uphold them or you don't. Wether you attribute these standards of decency to the Bible or not is up to you. Unless you're a Satanist and following that particular moral standard of living, your value system for being a good person is likely much in line with that of a religious Jew. Your reasonings for respecting certain societal standards might be different, but I think action speaks louder then words. It takes more then just wearing a Kippa in public, but if you're not willing to display your own devotion, then the words behind it mean nothing. In other words, the Atheists amongst us are more true to their beliefs then some of those prone to preaching.

[SteveK]

Canajew

Passover is about family and community. The story is a vehicle.

But the Haggadah is a little old fashion and I think should be updated.

Can you give me a little blurb for your re-write/update for the Passover story about God, Moses, the Children of Israel, and the Promised Land?


Canajew

As for embarassment, maybe I don't understand what you mean by the term "embarrass". Am I embarrassed other of "my people" believe? Well, no, it's probably good that they do as it keeps the community tighter. And I am certianly not embarrassed by my position, as you obviously should be able to tell from my comments.

I didn't study your comments yet. I will respond in another post to that thread you referenced.


Canajew

Sorry if I offend, but this is the Internet, the place for open frank discussion about ideas without account of other people's feelings.

Your previous comments on this thread highlighted in red are already just
"old-fashion"? Is this your update?


Canajew

As for the Living God of Israel, why not give me a little crash course, but maybe with less emphasis on the preaching and more on the real implications of this belief on actual people.

The real implications of this belief in the Living God of Israel are grounded from where I, and several million other Jews, stand in that same Promised Land to which The Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob brought the Children of Israel from Egyptian bondage.

How might you update this "old-fashion" Passover story to actually make me, and the other millions of Israelis, look like just "preachers"?

[Canajew]

Can you give me a little blurb for your re-write/update for the Passover story about God, Moses, the Children of Israel, and the Promised Land?




I didn't study your comments yet. I will respond in another post to that thread you referenced.




Your previous comments on this thread highlighted in red are already just
"old-fashion"? Is this your update?




The real implications of this belief in the Living God of Israel are grounded from where I, and several million other Jews, stand in that same Promised Land to which The Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob brought the Children of Israel from Egyptian bondage.

How might you update this "old-fashion" Passover story to actually make me, and the other millions of Israelis, look like just "preachers"?

its not about updating ther actual exedous story, but about updating the 1940s era writing of the hagadah itself. There is surely room to make it more relevant, more consistent with modern beliefs and values and principles, more relevant to today's young people.

[SteveK]

its not about updating ther actual exedous story, but about updating the 1940s era writing of the hagadah itself. There is surely room to make it more relevant, more consistent with modern beliefs and values and principles, more relevant to today's young people.


Canajew,

I am still in the process of reading the posts on the thread: "God: Does He Exist Or Not",- all 17 pages. It's good that you dug this heirloom out of the attic. I don't have to open a new thread.

I will move my discussions over to that thread in several days after I have reviewed the previous posts.

If you would indicate here what you consider to be "more relevant to today's young people", I would appreciate the feedback.

[gandolf2005]

WOW my thread was Hijacked... :D

But its ok,

This should lighten things up, enjoy and have a great Shabbat :cool:


EQUATIONS & STATISTICS


ROMANCE MATHEMATICS
>
> Smart man + smart woman = romance
>
> Smart man + dumb woman = affair
>
> Dumb man + smart woman = marriage
>
> Dumb man + dumb woman = pregnancy>
>
>
> OFFICE ARITHMETIC
>
> Smart boss + smart employee = profit
>
> Smart boss + dumb employee = production
>
> Dumb boss + smart employee = promotion
>
> Dumb boss + dumb employee = overtime>
>
>
> SHOPPING MATH
>
> A man will pay $2 for a $1 item he needs.
>
> A woman will pay $1 for a $2 item that she doesn't need.>
>
>
> STATISTICS
>
> A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband.
>
> A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife.
>
> A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend.
>
> A successful woman is one who can find such a man.>
>
>
> HAPPINESS
>
> To be happy with a man, you must understand him a lot and love him a
> little.
>
> To be happy with a woman, you must love her a lot and not try to
> understand her at all.
>
> LONGEVITY
>
> Married men live longer than single men do, but married men are a whole
> lot readier to die.
>
>
> PROPENSITY TO CHANGE
>
> A woman marries a man expecting he will change, but he doesn't.
>
> A man marries a woman expecting that she won't change, and she does.>
>
>
> DISCUSSION TECHNIQUE
>
> A woman has the last word in any argument.
>
> Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.>
>
>
> HOW TO STOP PEOPLE FROM BUGGING YOU ABOUT GETTING MARRIED
>
> Old aunts used to come up to me at weddings, poking me in the ribs,
> cackling, telling me, "You're next."
> They stopped after I started doing the same thing to them at funerals.


:D Have a good Shabbat

[grey]

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