Land for peace?

[ibrodsky]

The question comes up over and over: should Israel give up land for peace?

There are several reasons why Israel should not trade land for peace, not the least of which is that "land for peace" defies common sense.

Peace comes when the adversaries sincerely want peace, i.e., they have had enough of bloodshed and wish to focus on building rather than destroying. Genuine peace can't be bought or bartered, because the side that demands land (or money) has even less incentive for maintaining peace once it has been paid off.

Note also that Israel's enemies demand Israel give back all of the land captured during the Six Day War. Part of what they are trying to do here is get Israel to lend credence to their claim that the land is under "illegal occupation." They also know that Israel will never give back all of the captured land as it would leave the country indefensible; it's a great PR ploy for them to demand something they know will never happen.

Aside from what Israel's enemies demand, is Israel morally obligated to eventually return all of the captured land? Just the opposite: Israel is morally obligated to never give back all of the captured land. Contrary to demands that Israel return to its '67 borders, Israel's enemies never recognized Israel's '67 borders.

To give back all of the captured land would be wrong for three reasons: 1) it would send the message that there is no penalty for attacking Israel for 50+ years, 2) it would be to dishonor those who died or were wounded defending Israel since 1967, and 3) it would leave Israel with indefensible borders. (There are many other reasons that argue against it, such as that it would mean relinquishing Judiasm's holiest site to people who have repeatedly desecrated Jewish holy sites.)

When Israel's enemies are truly ready for peace, they -- like Egypt and Jordan -- will stop demanding all of the captured territory. Israel has already given back most of the captured land (the Sinai) and has offered 97% of the West Bank and Gaza. Given how small Israel is, and the existential threat it faces, if Israel's enemies truly wanted peace they would accept 97%.

Holding out for 3% plus the right to settle one million Arabs inside Israel, plus their maps showing "Palestine" encompassing all of Israel, shows that "peace" is not what they are after.

[Vic]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
To give back all of the captured land would be wrong for three reasons: [...] 3) it would leave Israel with indefensible borders.
This is definitely the most important aspect. On a physical map, Israel's most densely-populated areas remind me of Sarajevo with an escape route via the Mediterranean. Any more information on it?

[danholo]

The West Bank and Gaza areas are debatable but giving them up would be bad for Israeli security.

As for the Golan heights, I see no reason for giving it to Syria.
Syria used that area to its advantage against Israel.
Israel has made that part of land bloom like all the other parts it has over the years. And I reckon that the area has a majority of Israelis.

[ibrodsky]

Yes, and the fact is many if not most Syrians in the Golan Heights want the area to remain part of Israel.

After all, no normal person would want to live in poverty and under a despotic regime when they can avoid both.

[Iori Yagami]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Yes, and the fact is many if not most Syrians in the Golan Heights want the area to remain part of Israel.

After all, no normal person would want to live in poverty and under a despotic regime when they can avoid both.

Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they :)

[elke]

Originally posted by Iori Yagami


Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they :)

You know, there are still many people in Russia, and from Russia, who think that Stalin was a good leader. I will leave it to the psychologists to figure out exactly why that would be. However, IMHO this is the same psychological phenomenon that causes the abused women to "love" their abusive husbands, boyfriends, etc; and the Palestinians to support Arafat.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Iori Yagami
Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they :)
Maybe they enjoy the tremendous attention they get as "victims". It might be interesting to figure out who would lose what by making peace. I can make out one certain loser from my perspective: the Palestinian diaspora in Western Europe.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=10439#post10439

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Iori Yagami


Apparently, the palestinians want that, don`t they :)

No, they don't. That's why I started a thread about Palestinians and Mental Illness.

[elke]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Yes, and the fact is many if not most Syrians in the Golan Heights want the area to remain part of Israel.


Really? Have there been any studies or anything? That's a great tidbit to use in arguments!

[ibrodsky]

I saw a news report about them several years ago. They are obviously torn: most have family in Syria but now enjoy a higher standard of living.

But admittedly, my statement was not based on a poll. Most of the Syrians in the Golan Heights probably want to keep quiet for several reasons.

[USA911Israel247]

Originally posted by elke


You know, there are still many people in Russia, and from Russia, who think that Stalin was a good leader. I will leave it to the psychologists to figure out exactly why that would be. However, IMHO this is the same psychological phenomenon that causes the abused women to "love" their abusive husbands, boyfriends, etc; and the Palestinians to support Arafat.

Wow...that's a good way to describe it. I never thought of it that way! I think that like any group of people, Palestinians have varying political beliefs...in this case, I think some care more about their national identity and pride, while others are willing to foresake those things in order to improve their quality of life. Hopefully for our side, the latter group will win out in the end, and the Palestinian people will come to see that they have no future with Arafat or anyone else who supports terrorism as their leader. I think a lot of Palestinians are starting to show discontent with Arafat, and hopefully those voices will prevail and they will elect a more progressive and effective leader who puts the welfare of his people ahead of his dream of the destruction of Israel. I think your analogy is pretty accurate...keeping Arafat in power would be like a woman clinging to her abusive husband, which unfortunately happens all too often.

[smama]

how that could be ?
How can the killer of children , the land of peace?
withuot mercy they are killing people
kicking the nationals from their land
how they will be the land of peace?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by smama
how that could be ?
How can the killer of children , the land of peace?
withuot mercy they are killing people
kicking the nationals from their land
how they will be the land of peace?

No one ever accused Arab terrorists of being for peace.

[thatwhy]

Think that. The jews are the one who plan the sept 11 attack ? They say none of the jews died in the process. 3000 jews who work in Twin tower were not there on the day of attack ?

I just want to ask the Amercian.

[elke]

Originally posted by thatwhy
Think that. The jews are the one who plan the sept 11 attack ? They say none of the jews died in the process. 3000 jews who work in Twin tower were not there on the day of attack ?

I just want to ask the Amercian.

This is silly. Here is the reply:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/wtc_faqrumours.html

[DanStrat]

When will someone have the courage to stand up and state the obvious?

To say we are in a “War Against Terrorism” is to say we are in a war against murder, or analogous to our having said during the cold war we were in a war against ballistic missiles. Look at the success of our “War on Drugs”. Terrorism is a war tactic, a tool to inflict murder period. It is not the enemy; “Islamism” is the enemy just as Nazism was the enemy in WWII. All the problems of the backwards Arab World, the Middle East and many of the problems in the third world countries are directly related to Islamism.

Osama bin Laden understands this explicitly and has articulated it many times over. He is well aware that Islam is engaged in a war with all of Western Culture, all democratic and Christian countries, Israel and the U.S. especially.

One could surely argue that we are still very exposed to amazing vulnerabilities here in the U.S. and all western democratic nations. Most of our leaders are still not aware of who the enemy actually is and those that are won’t admit it. The question is:

When are we going to deal with the FACT that we are NOT in a “War Against Terrorism” we are in a war all right, and it is a war of cultures. We are in a war with Islam period, and the spread of this violent, oppressive Ideology masquerading as a religion.

Furthermore one could also argue that Islam should not be considered a religion, it is merely a regressive ideology disguised as such. “Islamism” is a much more accurate description of this ideology, which is even more dangerous than Nazism, Fascism or Communism. The longer we in the U.S. dilly dally around with our worries about our “Next To Non-Existent Coalition”, and political correctness here at home, the more people will die. We will be contending with generations of exploding murderers, exploding buildings, and death everywhere “Islamism” exists. Talking with them is a joke, and can only have any effect once this ideology is brought to its knees much the same as Nazism, Shintoism, and Fascism were.

Israel and the Islamist Palestinians – This never ending lunacy of fighting these murderers with “Peace” is indeed just that; lunacy. “Well, another “Martyr Bomber”, (not suicide bomber, they are not committing suicide, they are offering themselves as human bombs to kill people and fulfill their brainwashed mission and calling) has killed more people, what a surprise. Fighting these murdering lunatics with more peace is also lunacy and the frog in hot water theory will prove to be the only thing that will successfully work. Force brought on incrementally to assure the eventual death of the undesired element!

Try this – “Peace” or “Land” – First Israel marks out parcels of land encompassing the entire area inhabited by Palestinians and announces that from this day forward for each and every person injured or killed by “Martyr Bombers” Israel will bulldoze one of the land parcels, take it and hold it by force. There is currently no consequence for the continued murdering of “Infidels” and this policy would put a consequence in place and create a buffer zone between these murdering barbarians and the Jewish people of Israel. Let us not forget, the Palestinians want the Jews completely gone from Israel. They will never live there together in peace, it will take 200 or more years to rid the Arabs of their hatred for the Jews and all non- Muslims. Look at the Europeans, there is still hatred for the Jews, most won’t admit it but their behaviors speak louder than their words and it has been 57 years since Nazism was eradicated. Islamism must also be eradicated, their entire will to continue their evil spread of Islam world wide must be eradicated. We are at war with Islamism and we should also be at war with its allies, the international radical Islamic left, both seek the complete destruction of our society. According to al-Qaeda, humiliation, deprivation and oppression inspire righteous rage against the oppressor (US). And this righteous indignation is what al-Qaeda’s war is all about and this war is about the future world regin of Islam. The al-Qaeda statement asks: How can a Muslim accept humiliation and inferiority “when he knows that his nation was created to stand at the center of leadership, at the center of hegemony and rule, at the center of ability and sacrifice?...When he knows that the ‘divine’ rule is that the entire earth must be subject to the religion of Allah – not to the East, not to the West – to no ideology and to no path except the path of Allah?...”

[ibrodsky]

You are absolutely correct, DanStrat.

And what is the result of this lack of clarity? We subject little old ladies to exhaustive searches at airports, presumably because they might be plotting to hijack airplanes and turn them into guided missiles.

We pretend that the Palestinians are responding to a just grievance. We say that there are no "good terrorists," but we treat Palestinian terrorists as off-limits to US military action--even though they have killed numerous Americans.

Worst of all, we have tried to appease terrorist supporting states by inviting them to join our coalition against terrorism. As long as they pretend to be onboard, we pretend not to notice that they are breeding and nurturing terrorists.

Finally, while the US stands behind Israel, it keeps its distance. Somehow, the US has bought into the idea that it must not allow Israel to be a leading member of the coalition because this would scare off Arab states.

The situation is frighteningly similar to the situation in Europe prior to WW II. The US understood it had to use force against the Taliban/AlQaeda, but then we suffered the first major attack on our own soil. There is far less clarity re: Saddam Hussein, and former Presidents Clinton and Carter seem to be vying for some sort of Neville Chamberlain "let me be your doormat" award.

Whether we have the courage to stand up to Hezbullah, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia remains to be seen. There are reports that the Saudis are saying they don't support war against Iraq but are actually allowing US forces to act from Saudi Arabia. If that's true, they are not only fooling their own people, they are fooling our leaders.

[DanStrat]

Ibrodrsky: Just a little humorous suggestion:

It has been suggested that we take that sacred Kaaba stone from their temple in Mecca and place it on the moon and reduce Mecca and Medina to molten burning black holes in the sand. Remember according to Islamic belief this little piece of **** rock was delivered here to earth by God. It streamed across the sky with a fiery tail, was located by some [deleted] , and henceforth has been idolized by the ignorant. The moon is a sacred place, where no one, but God and blessed souls of Islam will ever visit. Our astronauts walking around up there, and bringing back hundreds of rocks and moon dust really burst that bubble for them. So in order to get to heaven and all those virgins and young boys, they will now have to go to the f------ moon. Which I might add would be a good place for “Islamism”.

And remember everything and all things that happen are predestined by God….so says that great profit Mohammed in the Koran. How are they going to justify that from the Koran, this contradictory, disjointed work of literary garbage written by a psychotic pedophile? The Koran serves as merely a medieval desert survival handbook for the ignorant, gullible, and violent barbarians that live there.

Well I guess if you can’t go to the moon, you certainly can’t get to heaven, thus the end of this evil, ignorant, violent, barbaric, regressive, and oppressive ideology. Will anyone miss it? Or will the world be a better place? What about our children, what kind of a world will they grow up in if we don’t eradicate this cancer, and it is a cancer?

In regard to Saudi Arabia - This is quite possibly the worst of all relationships we have in the Middle East as far as I am concerned. Our policy with these ungrateful, low-life, mendacious terrorist supporters could not make us look more like spineless fools consistantly being played from both sides of the table.

[DanStrat]

Manuel you stated - Racism strikes again
I don’ think so. I grew up in the 50’s & 60’s when racism in this country was something to actually fear. You on the other hand, now only 37, weren’t even born yet, so you have no real frame of reference of what racism is all about, except for what you have read, or heard from others. Although racism still exists here in this country, fortunately it is nowhere near the poisonous blight on our society it was back then.

The word you are looking for is “realist” I simply recognize who and what the “enemy” is; “Islamism” And you don’t like it. As far as I am concerned Islam is nothing more than a debased political ideology masquerading as a religion. You submit to live by the “teachings” of Islam as described in the dozen or so completely contradictory versions of the Koran, all of which have been softened significantly during each translation from the many Arabic versions; praise and worship only Allah, become a Muslim or we will kill you. Okay, maybe we let you live, but you will pay poll taxes, we will take all your weapons and wealth, and you will live as subservient to all Muslims in a totally repressive, tyrannical existence. Islam, a religion just bursting with peace isn’t it. How can anyone call that a religion?

Remember “realist” is the term you are looking for and here are just a few examples realistically framing who the enemy is and what his belief toward the non-Muslim Infidels are:

Along with bin Laden, al-Zawahiri signed a fatwa, or declaration, stating: "The judgment to kill and fight Americans and their allies, whether civilians or military, is an obligation for every Muslim "
"Ayman al-Zawahiri's influence on bin Laden has been profound," said Peter Bergen. "According to a number of people who know both men, (al-Zawahiri) helped (bin Laden) become more radical, more anti-American and more violent."

Some Egyptians believe that al-Zawahiri's violent anger toward the United States was due to what many Afghan Arabs felt was a betrayal by the CIA, which helped fund the fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan and then abandoned its support as the country slipped into tribal anarchy.

But others date al-Zawahiri's wrath to 1998, when the United States pushed for a number of al Jihad members to be extradited from Albania to stand trial in Egypt for terrorism.

On August 4 of that year, the al Hayat newspaper office in Cairo received a fax from al Jihad stating: "We should like to inform the Americans that, in short, their message has been received and that they should read carefully the reply that will, with God's help, be written in the language that they understand."

Three days later, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed. Both al-Zawahiri and bin Laden would be indicted on charges of masterminding the bombings.

Before the United States struck back for the U.S. embassy bombings, with cruise missile attacks on al Qaeda training camps, al-Zawahiri called a Pakistani journalist and denied that bin Laden was behind the attacks, but he then warned of more to come.

In 1999, Egypt tried the al Jihad members who had been extradited from Albania. Al-Zawahiri and one of his brothers, Mohammed, were tried in absentia and given the death penalty.

A videotape of bin Laden, holding a microphone and sitting in a cave, was shown on TV news network al Jazeera shortly after the beginning of the U.S.-led attacks in Afghanistan.

"These events have split the world into two camps -- belief and disbelief," bin Laden said in the statement. "America will never dream or know or taste security or safety unless we know safety and security in our land and in Palestine."

It is unclear when the statement was made or whether bin Laden spoke before or after joint U.S.-British strikes on targets in Afghanistan, including camps associated with al Qaeda.

Speaking of the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York, bin Laden said, "This is America, God has sent the attacks and has attacked one of its best buildings.

"And what America is facing today is something very little of what we have tasted for decades. Our nation, since nearly 80 years is tasting this humility," he said. "Sons are killed, and nobody answers the call."

"When God has guided a bunch of Muslims to be at the forefront and destroyed America -- a big destruction -- I wish God would lift their position," he said.

Bin Laden also said America is "filled with fear from the north, south, east and west, thank God for that”.

"Oh American people, can you ask yourselves, why all this hate against America and against Israel, why?" al-Zawahiri said. "All this hatred in the hearts of Americans against America?

"The answer is very clear and very simple, that America has committed so many crimes against the nations of Muslims. Unbearable and nobody could bear. America is the head of criminals by creating the Israel. This continuance of crime for 50 years, the Muslim nation shall not accept this crime."

Islam, just bursting with peace isn’t it?

[I am David]

Good job DanStrat, and a very truethfull post that is.

I just hope people will open their eyes up and realize that just because something sounds racist, does NOT mean it is. Look at it this way, racism is a form prejudice isn't it? Pre-judge, that's what's wrong with racism is that you pre judge someone based on theirr race. I mean if someone is a murder you aren't pre judging them to be a low life are you? They are a low life because of what they did. So, if there is actually a people/culture/religion that the majority of that group is violently enclined, it is no longer a prejudgement to call them just that, a violent group, correct? It SOUNDS racist yes, but it isn't because what you are saying has basis in fact.

[ibrodsky]

I don't consider Islam necessarily racist. Religions are subject to interpretation and many if not most Muslim leaders choose to interpret Islam in a "fundamentalist" way in which beliefs discarded by modern educated people are still clung to.

Certainly the refusal of Islam to support separation of mosque and state can only lead to racism. Saudi Arabia is probably the most racist country on earth. Amazingly, anti-Israel activists charge that Israel is "apartheid" despite the fact that Arabs in Israel have the right to vote and to be elected to office. In Saudi Arabia, in contrast, no one has the right to vote, there are laws that plainly discriminate against non-Muslims--routinely justified by Islam--and the country is filled to the brim with religious schools that breed hatred and intolerance.

In the U.S., Muslims demonstrate their profound racism when they plead that "Islam has nothing to do with Osama bin Laden, but you have to understand the root cause: U.S. support for Israel." This argument basically says that Islam is not responsible for the massacre of 3,000 Americans, regardless of the fact the perpetrators were Muslims and their supporters proudly insist their actions were inspired by Islam. Instead, they offer "explanations" ranging from the big fat lies, accepted as good coin mainly in the Muslim community, that Jews stayed home that day, that the Mossad was behind the attacks, or that no doubt these misguided people killed 3,000 innocent Americans because they were understandably "frustrated."

The bottom line is that there are racists of all faiths. But only Muslim leaders have the audacity to claim that their racism is really for the good of both the would-be masters and the would-be slaves.

Until Muslim leaders emerge who issue fatwas and declare jihad against terrorists who call themselves Muslims, and modernize Islam to break the back of its racist, sexist, undemocratic, and down right totalitarian interpretations, then it is correct to say that Islam is a religion that uses scripture to promote racist ideas and practices.

[DanStrat]

Why is it that wherever there is Islam there is terrorism?

David, indeed your comments are well taken and right on target, also Mr. Ibrodsky points out below that Saudi Arabia represents probably the most racist society on earth and this is also most probably very true.

Zulfikar Khan stated in his article - Islam-Terrorism, Inc. – Part I – “that today, many followers of Islam such as Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Momar Gaddafi, Louis Farrakhan, Yasser Arafat, Dawood Ibrahim, Abu Nidal, etc. are famed for the brutality of their crimes and terrorism. The entire world is marred by violence and murder, wherever Muslims reside. The entire world is suffering due to the barbaric activities of Islamic terrorists. Pick up a newspaper today and you will note that 98% of terrorist activities that occur involve Muslims.”

When I look around the world today wherever there is Islam there is terrorism. Think about it. And they are calling for Jihad, and the Muslim Cleric’s, Mullah’s, and Muslim fundamentalists and extremists have twisted the meaning of Jihad to now mean “Holy War” whereby all Muslims are called to defend Islam against the Infidels of what will no doubt boil down to America, The U.K., and Israel, in a “Holy War”. As a matter of fact they are insisting on it.

One of the basic elements that enable terrorist cells to recruit people is the poverty and oppressive control of economic and democratic opportunity for the future in most parts of the Islamic world. One could also argue that racist control is also at the heart of this oppressive control of these populations. The battle against poverty and the insertion of democracy in these countries will take on increasing importance and become part of the long-term effort after the military wars have been won. Addressing the poverty and the education of these peoples is of paramount importance if we are ever to eradicate terrorism.

I would like to say a few words to Mr. Nigel Chamberlain, spokesman for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) in London, (any relation to Neville?) And his groups chant “No War – Stand Up For Peace” “End the violence in the Middle East”. Also I would like to include the mindless Sybille Stamm, of Stuttgart Germany, asking Germans to “stand together against this war against terrorism” and “This war threatens to spread a fire of hatred.” She stated, “I am upset that our government is increasing spending on security instead of social programs.” How far in the sand is this woman’s head anyway? Did they burn all the history books in Stuttgart back in the late 30’s?

The most disconnected from reality however, comes from a Ms. Ann-Cathrin Jarl of Sweden. She represents the Women’s International League for Peace, and get this “Freedom” and last fall she is quoted as saying; “It’s absolutely unacceptable that the world’s richest country bombs the world’s poorest people”. Was she in a test tube on the 11th of September last year? Was she brain dead for the week, or what? Does she think that our President Bush just woke up on Oct 7th and said to himself; lets drop some bombs on Afghanistan today? No doubt Ms. Ann-Cathrin Jarl would suggest that we should have asked Mr. Bin Laden if it would be okay if a couple of our diplomats drop over to Kabul and smoke some opium from a bong, while we chit chat world affairs. I know, we should probably just forget that his al Qaeda Terrorists network had just killed 3,000 innocent civilians, and military personnel in our country, left thousands of children without one or both of their parents, and unleashed hundreds if not thousands of terrorists to continue his “holy war” world wide. Maybe Ann-Cathrin will wake up when the Islamist/ and or al Qaeda Terrorists blow up the VOLVO factory and kill people in her town or in her family.

And lets not leave out Mr. Denis Doherty, rally organizer in Australia last October, as he has this pearl of wisdom for us “No one supports the September 11th attacks, but no one supports what’s happening now in Afghanistan, either.” Obviously Mr. Denis Doherty couldn’t find his ass in the dark with both hands, has no vision, no ideas, no clue, no courage and no solutions, so I guess it would be pointless to engage him in the discussion, he is just lost down under.

I just wonder how many minutes will go by when Sweden, Australia, and Germany are attacked like we just were before they are frantically asking the United States for help?

In regard to the few dissenters here on our own soil, one has to wonder how these hypocritical whiners who condemn the United States while they take complete advantage of all the benefits of freedom and the liberty our country offers, can live with them-selves. When challenged about this they always rush to the freedom of speech rights excuse.

Don’t they recognize that freedom didn’t just fall out of the sky; people gave their lives to obtain it, and have done the same to defend it. These people are freeloaders, living in a dream world. We can no more ignore this battle than we could have ignored Adolph Hitler. This enemy (all terrorist organizations) may seem fractional in size militarily compared to the military might we faced 60 years ago, and also in Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf, but the worldwide complications of culture, history, politics, freedom and liberty are enormous.

This conflict, campaign, “America’s New War” is not about America and what we should, or should not have done over the past 5 or 10 or even 50 years. It is indeed about Islam! The vehement anger directed at Israel and the west by men like Osama bin Laden, Arafat and all the terrorist organizations they and all the others represent has been within Islam for centuries, and so has their frustration and always their hatred for others they blame for their plight. These things are not our doing; we have simply become the latest embodiment of a long line of interfering infidels. Yes, in recent times we have been forced to go to war against Iraq, and yes, we still impose sanctions against them, and we still support Israel. Yes, we have our military stationed in areas of the holy land in Saudi Arabia, but unless we are willing to abandon the Jewish people, allow Sadam Hussein the freedom to continue to build weapons of terror and mass destruction, and pretend that we accept the charade that Islam is a peaceful “religion”, and that the oil from the region is not the fuel that drives the western world, the terrorist network will not be content, nor will they live in this world peacefully with us. Americans must be better world citizens, okay this is a good idea, but it won’t mean much to the Islamic world. We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Look at our efforts to promote peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians; one side is going to hate us no matter what we do.

The Islamic fundamentalists and extremists stand against us, because we stand in their way to turn back the hands of time, to dictatorial, oppressive control, totalitarianism under the guise of religion.

It seems the “Anti-American – “Anti-War” “Peace Activists” are failing to understand the challenge is not just political. And we are not yet ready to discuss the uncomfortable topics openly yet, but the fact of the matter is that Fundamentalist Islamic leaders, Clerics, Mullahs and Narcissistic “War Lords” like Osama bin Laden all over the world have declared “Jihad” holy war, not only against America, but against all the non-Islam believers, all those of Christian faiths, all those from the west. “Any American civilian, or non-believing infidel is a target, if they are paying taxes they are the enemy and should die.” This is indeed a war of cultures; we are just not ready to admit it yet. Osama bin Laden, and all Islamic Fundamentalists like him want to push the world into a war dividing Islam against Christianity, they are insisting on it.

There are people starving in Afghanistan and innocent civilians have died here in the U.S., in the war zones and all over the Middle East due to Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist attacks. What we are faced with is the built-up frustration, failure and anger in the Islamic world that is now finding an outlet in religious passion and ethnic identity. It is this foundation that has created Saddam, Arafat, Osma bin Laden, and all like them. Looming over us also is the fact that the governments and the regimes that are in control of most of the Islamic countries can barely keep a lid on things. And we are being forced to deal with this barely understood phenomenon head on.

These terrorists deliberately and methodically set out to kill thousands of innocent people, and we are not unlike the citizens of Western Europe in the face of the Nazi build up and eventual blitz across Europe. Mr. Chamberlain had his head in the sand, but was being advised by many and had tremendous pressure to resolve the prospect of war with “peace talks” and the leaders of the time were afraid and just plain refused to face reality.

Funny how most people’s vision of the future is nothing more than repeating the past more efficiently. But not funny Ha Ha I might add.

[DanStrat]

ibrodsky you very astutely mention the following, but some might question whether or not Islam should really be considered a "religion", or rather an Arab National Movement.

The bottom line is that there are racists of all faiths. But only Muslim leaders have the audacity to claim that their racism is really for the good of both the would-be masters and the would-be slaves.

Until Muslim leaders emerge who issue fatwas and declare jihad against terrorists who call themselves Muslims, and modernize Islam to break the back of its racist, sexist, undemocratic, and down right totalitarian interpretations, then it is correct to say that Islam is a religion that uses scripture to promote racist ideas and practices.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Islam has been projected as the international religion of love and equality, having the cure for all human problems. The truth is that most of its laws are borrowed and irrelevant to any modern needs. Don't you think it a small wonder that the Muslim countries pay extensive lip service to these Islamic "laws" while many of them either actually practice western laws or want to have it both ways?

When you look into the Islamic background and examine its principles, it becomes evident that Islam in fact, is an Arab National Movement , which imposes the Arabian cultural and spiritual imperialism on non-Arabs through an unparalleled system of subtlety and sophistication. You only have to look at the histories of India, Egypt and Iran to reach this conclusion.

Islam has become the biggest business for the mullah and a more than effective source of power for the Clerics and politicians. Therefore, they all are determined to exploit it by exaggerating its significance, and condemning all those, who challenge its validity. This is the basic reason they provoke the Muslim masses through fatwas by calling the dissidents "Kafir, Shatim-E-Rasool and Insulters of Islam", whereas, in fact, these exploiters themselves are the enemies of Islam if one is to consider it a true religion. Most of these exploiters do not even believe in Allah and the Prophet as required by the Koran. Hypocrisy is their specialty, which they all have learned to utilize very, very well to reap the rewards of their evils....Anwar Shaikh

[meir kihan]

Now that the Palestinians have shown their true colors, Powel, Anan, European Union, and Russia. want a Palestinian state by 2003. Who says crime does not pay?

The Palestinians can undergo cosmetic makeovers ad nauseum, but the leopard can’t change their spots. There can be neither a Palestinian state nor peace with the Palestinians.

You want Palestine? I’ll give you Palestine. Let’s reunite Israel and Jordan to re-create the country of Palestine. This country can have two socio-cultural or religio-political entities. The Jewish Zionists whether in Jerusalem, Haifa, or Amman form one entity. The Christian and Moslem Arabs form the second. The Israeli Arabs in Haifa, Jaffa, and Um El Fahm get Jordanian citizenship, while Jordan abolishes its archaic racist law that prohibits Jews from buying a house, land or even moving to Jordan. The “Palestinian Authority” repeals the death penalty to any Arab that sells a house or land to a Jew. Jews accept cultural pluralism and adapt to a myriad of cultures and religions infecting Israeli culture and society. Arabs welcome Jews in Amman, Mecca, Damascus and Baghdad. Ridiculous? I agree.

The UN and Saudi’s puppet, the US State Dept, would better spend their efforts relocating the poor pawns of this conflict, the refugees kept against their will in refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon. While they are at it, the UN and State department should help resettle those caught in the cross-fire; those Palestinians who have had enough of the reign of terror should be helped to find greener pastures. Certainly, those that live a stone’s throw from a Jewish settlement or major road should be re-located. Creating buffer zones so that Jews are not attacked will also prevent Israeli retaliation. 99% of the Palestinians live in six major cities and their suburbs. Relocating the other 1% spread out on 58% of the West Bank and Gaza will eliminate the flashpoints that can trigger a nuclear holocaust. It’s a no brainer.

But the quartet wants a Palestinian State by 2003. It is like the ecumenical council convention where a Rabbi, Minister and Priest went into a room to play poker. The Cardinal walking down the hall overheard what he thought was a card game in progress. He stormed into the room while they all rushed to hide the cards.

“Father, were you playing cards?” he accusingly asks the priest.

The priest launched into a sermon on the evils of gambling and challenged the Cardinal that he should even think that a Priest, the pillar of the Church, the standard-bearer, should even think of playing cards.

“Minster, were you playing cards?” he scornfully asks the minister. The minister puts his hands together and insists that the Cardinal should know better than to ask. Everyone knows that gambling is an abomination to every single Christian sect. Of course, he wasn’t.

“Rabbi, were you playing cards?” he pleadingly asks the Rabbi. The Rabbi threw up his hands, looked the Cardinal in the eye and asked, “With who?”

Palestinians even with democracy and fair elections will not change their core cultural belief that violence against Jews and Americans is always justified. They cheered the Sept 11 attack as they applaud every murder and mutilation of innocent Jewish civilian women and children. Nevertheless, the gullible Americans invariably send their dignitaries to reign in Israel after every single Israeli reaction to major Palestinian attacks. They activate their puppets, the “no brains” left and insist that Israel negotiate a Peace agreement.

“With who?”

Arafat has indignantly proclaimed again and again that he is for peace and against violence. Any replacement will be likewise against violence.

To the quartet, I would like to leave you with a thought, but I don’t know where you would put it.

Perhaps your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

You are not as bad as people say - you are worse!

You are no longer beneath my contempt.




www.emigrations.net\sponsors

[DanStrat]

Originally posted by meir kihan
I don’t know what makes them so stupid, but it really works.

Now that the Palestinians have shown their true colors, Powel, Anan, European Union, and Russia. want a Palestinian state by 2003. Who says crime does not pay?

The Palestinians can undergo cosmetic makeovers ad nauseum, but the leopard can’t change their spots. There can be neither a Palestinian state nor peace with the Palestinians.

You want Palestine? I’ll give you Palestine. Let’s reunite Israel and Jordan to re-create the country of Palestine.

“With who?”
meir kihan, no truer words could be spoken!

From my previous post: Israel and the Islamist Palestinians – This never ending lunacy of fighting these murderers with “Peace” is indeed just that; lunacy. “Well, another “Martyr Bomber”, (not suicide bomber, they are not committing suicide, they are offering themselves as human bombs to kill people and fulfill their brainwashed mission and calling) has killed more people, what a surprise. Fighting these murdering lunatics with more peace is also lunacy and the frog in hot water theory will prove to be the only thing that will successfully work. Force brought on incrementally to assure the eventual death of the undesired element!

Try this – “Peace” or “Land” – First Israel marks out parcels of land encompassing the entire area inhabited by Palestinians and announces that from this day forward for each and every person injured or killed by “Martyr Bombers” Israel will bulldoze one of the land parcels, take it and hold it by force. There is currently no consequence for the continued murdering of “Infidels” and this policy would put a consequence in place and create a buffer zone between these murdering barbarians and the Jewish people of Israel. Let us not forget, the Palestinians want the Jews completely gone from Israel. They will never live there together in peace, it will take 200 or more years to rid the Arabs of their hatred for the Jews and all non- Muslims. Look at the Europeans, there is still hatred for the Jews, most won’t admit it but their behaviors speak louder than their words and it has been 57 years since Nazism was eradicated. Islamism must also be eradicated, their entire will to continue their evil spread of Islam world wide must be eradicated. We are at war with Islamism and we should also be at war with its allies, the international radical Islamic left, both seek the complete destruction of our society. According to al-Qaeda, humiliation, deprivation and oppression inspire righteous rage against the oppressor (US). And this righteous indignation is what al-Qaeda’s war is all about and this war is about the future world regin of Islam. The al-Qaeda statement asks: How can a Muslim accept humiliation and inferiority “when he knows that his nation was created to stand at the center of leadership, at the center of hegemony and rule, at the center of ability and sacrifice?...When he knows that the ‘divine’ rule is that the entire earth must be subject to the religion of Allah – not to the East, not to the West – to no ideology and to no path except the path of Allah?...”

"With who" is indeed the question!

[Mr. Pumps]

The term of Palestine does'nt exist in reality...the truth is Poorasdirtstine is what they propose. They have neither the ideas or knowledge to make a real state.

What would be the economy of this "State"? some dumb limited agriculture production or the education excellence....boy.... I just see a huge global lineup for international student to take advantage of the exceptional Gaza University.

The European equivalent is Albania, so go figure what the great, almighty state of "Palestine" would look like.

Lets face it, Israel is King Soloman's temple of gold compared to the burned out outhouse dumpland called Palestinian "Territory".

Maybe a state when there is a willful leader that works toward to even marginally turn the outhouse into a rundown shack.

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by thatwhy
Think that. The jews are the one who plan the sept 11 attack ? They say none of the jews died in the process. 3000 jews who work in Twin tower were not there on the day of attack ?

I just want to ask the Amercian.

Muslims and Islam is agianst Beer, hooters, pornography, wealth and fast sport cars, Bikes, Technology, Gold Chains, Tatoos, Guns, freedom, female navel rings.......no Jewish person have NEVER been agianst my values "don't go to stripjoints, no beer,no partying or so on" so any attack agianst such a agreeable group makes a individual look like a fool and crazy unpatriotic clown worth of exile and eternal embarrassement....maybe those Anti-American Anti-semitic Facists who live in America with me would realize this simple fact....but no!..... they are not American they want to turn our proudness upsite down. Well I refuse to hand our country and values to you arch enemies of America. If you don't like me or my values...even you facist Christian people in the U.S join the Relgious middle east freakshows if you don't like my values....I will never pick on anyone who does do nothing to insult and try to destroy my ways ......everyone who loves the values I have stated the Muslims want to collapse yours and my world. Any Nazi-facist is a clear Anti-Christian, Anti-American force, agianst the red, white and blue values and enemy supporter.

[Disraeli]

Originally posted by danholo
The West Bank and Gaza areas are debatable but giving them up would be bad for Israeli security.

Excuse me, but you are effectively arguing that Israel has the right to occupy another nation for the sake of it's own security?

Where do you get off? Who made you so damned important that the 3 million Palestinians who have to put up with occupation and tanks rolling through their street's?

Israel is supposed to be a democracy, well tell me if you are so democratic then why don't you let the people in the occupied terrorties (which you have just claimed as (part of Israel)) elect members directly to the Kinesset hmm?

What has a democracy to fear from a democracy?
Or perhaps it is a Greek democracy, where only the chosen few ie (Jewish) can have a say over their lives?

The notion that you can supress a nation of three million people in perpetuity under the umbrella of (Israeli security) is a nonesense.

I just don't get it, I don't understand how a people who suffered so much at the hands of the Nazis can debase another nation (the Palestinians) in the way the state of Israel currently does every time it utterly ingores international cries to withdraw from Palestine.

You see when you occupy a people you take away their method of self determination, therefore if Israel is truely democratic and not some relgiously elitist state you must allow the three million Palestinians under occupation the opportunity to elect directly the Kinesset, again what do Democrats have to fear from democracy?

[danholo]

Disraeli,

You said that you knew history and I was impressed with what you said on the other thread. Very nice.
I would like to see a pull out of WB and Gaza too, but events led to the invasion of these areas and events led to not leaving the area. Israel just can't retreat. On the other hand, Palestinians wouldn't have a just cause to use terrorism any more, but then they'd be wanting Israel proper too.. I support peace, but I sure as hell don't know what to do with this situation. Do you?
To leave the territories now would just award terrorism. Terrorism is not allowed to win.

[danholo]

Originally posted by Disraeli
Again what do Democrats have to fear from democracy?

Do you mean in general or a specific democratic entity?

[Disraeli]

I would like to see a pull out of WB and Gaza too, but events led to the invasion of these areas and events led to not leaving the area. Israel just can't retreat.

You see I would regard that as a rationalisation of occupation.

If need be the UN can police a withdrawal of Israeli troops, that is one of the functions of the UN, but Israel doing the policing of the Palestinian areas is in fact in my opinion breeding resentment for Israel and making people want to retaliate for right or wrong.

Thus Israel should allow the international community to intercede and mediate a peace, as in my opinion the USA is not sufficiently impartial.
The US has vetoed tens of resolutions regarding the Middle East Arab/Israeli conflict, so I would suggest that this has to stop and the UN has to be allowed to intercede to bring about and enforce if need be a peace between Israel and Palestine.

This would most likely entail a total partition of the two communities, the semantics of which are best negotiated over a table not from the end of a barrel of a gun.

[danholo]

The UN peace keeping force in southern Lebanon is enough proof of why Israel does not want another UN police force in the area.
On the other hand, I would like to see the Israeli forces leave the areas for safety, as you say, but who would come in their place?

Terrorism was in Israel, before any occupation or settlements. You think Palestinians would immediately give up terror?
Also, I just read a poll that slightly over 50% of Palestinian would want an Islamic state instead of a democratic one. What a change!

[zionist]

Quote: USA 9/11. Israel 24/7!

Elke, I like that!

[Jay]

Originally posted by ibrodsky


No one ever accused Arab terrorists of being for peace.

Got that one right (Mr/Mrs.) Brodsky!!! Further, one has to ascribe to the ancient edict that, "To the victor belong the spoils".

this land was taken as a result of wars. It is rightfully Israels, and theirs to keep. Further it is a place to keep as abufferm zone so that they can keep the people that they send to Gaza City in check. I am alluding to the families of the captured terrorists or the terrorists that blow themselves up. Israel is right to demolish these homes of theirs and place the families of the terrorists in
a place they could be observed.

[Disraeli]

Originally posted by Jay


Got that one right (Mr/Mrs.) Brodsky!!! Further, one has to ascribe to the ancient edict that, "To the victor belong the spoils".

this land was taken as a result of wars. It is rightfully Israels, and theirs to keep.


So then it was what "ok?" for the Nazis to conquor most of Europe and put all those people into forced labour camps and death camps, because they had "won"?


It was ok for the Nazis to use the hair of Jews they had put to death to make pillows out of and ok for them to take the gold teeth taken from the mouths of dead Jews because those were the "spoils of war"?

Maybe what you really mean to say is "To the victor belong the spoils" so long as it suits a random pro-israeli argument(x)?

[danholo]

Again one who compares Israel with Nazi-Germany. Nothing better to do then to distort the truth?

[Disraeli]

Originally posted by danholo
Again one who compares Israel with Nazi-Germany. Nothing better to do then to distort the truth?

Are you suggesting I am doing that? If so I think you have read my post in error.

Besides is it that no one can rebuff the point I made in my last post or that it is inconvienent to do so?
Perhaps doging questions like the one I have posed in the above post is the reason why the fallacy of logic that proports the right of annexation via militarism is used to rationalise the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in perpetuity.

[danholo]

Well you shouldn't have brought up the Nazis.

Germany was doing all the attacking in the first place. I do not accept Viking-style war, where the attacker gets the spoils.

In Israel's case, it was defending itself in 1967. It is a wholly different situation.

[zionist]

Originally posted by Disraeli


You see I would regard that as a rationalisation of occupation.

If need be the UN can police a withdrawal of Israeli troops, that is one of the functions of the UN, but Israel doing the policing of the Palestinian areas is in fact in my opinion breeding resentment for Israel and making people want to retaliate for right or wrong.

Thus Israel should allow the international community to intercede and mediate a peace, as in my opinion the USA is not sufficiently impartial.
The US has vetoed tens of resolutions regarding the Middle East Arab/Israeli conflict, so I would suggest that this has to stop and the UN has to be allowed to intercede to bring about and enforce if need be a peace between Israel and Palestine.

This would most likely entail a total partition of the two communities, the semantics of which are best negotiated over a table not from the end of a barrel of a gun.

With all due respect, the UN is hardly impartial. The UN is comprised mainly of 3rd world nations most of whom despise the State of Israel not to mention the many Arabic nations in the UN. Israel was only recently "allowed" to become a member of the UN. No. If that had not been the case, then I would agree with you. Just look at the history of the UN vs. Israel?

Unfortunately, it is my feeling that there will never be peace. How can there be "peace" if there is no peace partner? Until the hostile nations in the region fully accept Israel as an entity, there can be no expectation of Israeli withdrawal from WB/Gaza. That would be national suicide.
All you need to do is enter some of the Arabic web sites and Israel is not even on the map of the Middle-East.

Just look at the facts. Whenever there were talks between the two parties, Hamas and Hezbollah interfered and killed innocent Israeli citizens. Why does the UN not intervene in THAT? Why is Israel the only country in the entire world that is expected to withdraw from land it conquered in war. Israel did not willfully sieze the territories. Why not ask Britian to return territory it occupied and occupies, or France, et al.?


.

[Disraeli]

Just look at the facts. Whenever there were talks between the two parties, Hamas and Hezbollah interfered and killed innocent Israeli citizens. Why does the UN not intervene in THAT? Why is Israel the only country in the entire world that is expected to withdraw from land it conquered in war. Israel did not willfully sieze the territories. Why not ask Britian to return territory it occupied and occupies, or France, et al.?

Point one. Israel has the atom bomb, so basically if and when it withdraws form the West Bank and Gaza there even if it were seen as a sign of weakness, Israel's neighbours would not seek to invade, lest they risk Nuclear retaliation from Israel, so I find difficulty in the concept that any nation would willingly start a war with an adversary that could retaliate with Nuclear weapons.

For sure there are extremists who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, however there are extremists in all societies and walks of life and I feel that it is too easy to rationalise the occupation citing the intransigent masses waiting to destroy Israel, as no doubt those intransigent masses rationalise their desire to destroy Israel due to the occupation to some extent.
Quid pro quo.

Basically though Britain and France do not in fact occupy terroritory with military force anymore. In Northern Ireland there is a power sharing government and the Northern State is still part of the UK because roughly 51-56% of the population is in fact Unionist (ie loyal to the UK), so there is no question of military occupation, but rather the rule of democracy and what's more the two communities have devolved government where power is shared across the two communities Republican(Irish) and Unionist(British) which is imperfect but, amicable.

So in fact I would wonder what you are talking about when you say why isn't France or Britain asked to give up terroritories it occupies by force? Example Iraq was ordered to leave Kuwait by the UN, so why should Israel be permitted to flout it et al?
Let us not dwell on the anti-semite misnomer, I am not one and I recognise Israel's right to exist. Therefore to say Israel must flout internation opinion because of rampant anti-semitism is in my opinion and excuse. In reality what the UN and most of the deveopled world wants to see is an end to all violence in the Middlel East from both Jew and Arab. That said it is within the power of Israel to make a grand gesture, you may not regard it as particularly fair, but as the ones who ultimately have the real power in the region it is beholdant on the Israelis to go that extra mile for peace.

[zionist]

Originally posted by Disraeli


For sure there are extremists who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist, however there are extremists in all societies and walks of life and I feel that it is too easy to rationalise the occupation citing the intransigent masses waiting to destroy Israel, as no doubt those intransigent masses rationalise their desire to destroy Israel due to the occupation to some extent.
Quid pro quo.

Basically though Britain and France do not in fact occupy terroritory with military force anymore. In Northern Ireland there is a power sharing government and the Northern State is still part of the UK because roughly 51-56% of the population is in fact Unionist (ie loyal to the UK), so there is no question of military occupation, but rather the rule of democracy and what's more the two communities have devolved government where power is shared across the two communities Republican(Irish) and Unionist(British) which is imperfect but, amicable.

So in fact I would wonder what you are talking about when you say why isn't France or Britain asked to give up terroritories it occupies by force? Example Iraq was ordered to leave Kuwait by the UN, so why should Israel be permitted to flout it et al?
Let us not dwell on the anti-semite misnomer, I am not one and I recognise Israel's right to exist. Therefore to say Israel must flout internation opinion because of rampant anti-semitism is in my opinion and excuse. In reality what the UN and most of the deveopled world wants to see is an end to all violence in the Middlel East from both Jew and Arab. That said it is within the power of Israel to make a grand gesture, you may not regard it as particularly fair, but as the ones who ultimately have the real power in the region it is beholdant on the Israelis to go that extra mile for peace.

First, question! You call this occupation quid pro quo. Tell me what about before the so called occupation in 1967? Why was there no peace for the 20 or so years prior to the occuaption? You know why, don't you. Because that part of the world hates the state of Israel. At least there can be debate between the Brits and the Irish. They are of the same ilk. But the fanatic fundamentalist Muslim countries who call the U.S. infidels? Come on. There is no sitting-down-discussing-the-family kind of relationship in the forseeable future. God, the more I read your sanctimoneous dribble the more I am convinced that you are an anti-semite (in disguise) and not for the reasons you think.

Where was the world (and still is) when Jewish synagogues are torched in Germany today? Where is the outcry? You have the audacity to want Israel to give a damn about world condemnation? I say #### 'em!

[Mediocrates]

Point one. Israel has the atom bomb, so basically if and when it withdraws form the West Bank and Gaza there even if it were seen as a sign of weakness, Israel's neighbours would not seek to invade, lest they risk Nuclear retaliation from Israel, so I find difficulty in the concept that any nation would willingly start a war with an adversary that could retaliate with Nuclear weapons.


This actually is the dumbest crock of **** I've read this month.

They are in a war NOW, nimnertz! and they apparently haven't used it - unless there is some secret zionist ray of invisibility that blocks it out from right thinking people. :eek:

And oh, they've had them since the late 60's- so two wars later still no flying nukes - so maybe they don't see that as a viable option. But hey ya never know us bloodthirsty zionist pigs! We might just!!!!! ;)

The most advanced radars the IDF has gives them a 3-4 minute warning.


And runner up for idiot claptrapery of all ****ing time is:

"That said it is within the power of Israel to make a grand gesture, you may not regard it as particularly fair, but as the ones who ultimately have the real power in the region it is beholdant on the Israelis to go that extra mile for peace."


That's what countries do? "Graaaand Gestures"? Let me tell you something bud. Offer my hand to someone and they chop it off I'm not going to offer the other hand in a grand gesture - **** that ****. Tell the Arab states to compel the PA to make a grand gesture like round up or kill every last terrorist or better yet round up the PA and install a new regime.

[elke]

Originally posted by Disraeli

So then it was what "ok?" for the Nazis to conquor most of Europe and put all those people into forced labour camps and death camps, because they had "won"?


It was ok for the Nazis to use the hair of Jews they had put to death to make pillows out of and ok for them to take the gold teeth taken from the mouths of dead Jews because those were the "spoils of war"?

Maybe what you really mean to say is "To the victor belong the spoils" so long as it suits a random pro-israeli argument(x)?

What is your purpose in bringing up the Nazis? What are you trying to say? How is that even relevant to the argument that "to the victor belong the spoils", since in fact it was not the Nazis who won?

The only analogy with the "victor" that can be made in the WWII scenario, is that USSR indeed did increase its sphere of influence dramatically after WWII! And yes - in that case, the spoils went to the victor - namely, the USSR.

[elke]

Originally posted by zionist
Quote: USA 9/11. Israel 24/7!

Elke, I like that!

I like it too, Zionist, but it wasn't me that made this comparison :( ;)

[Jorge]

Quote from Zionist post #42:

God, the more I read your sanctimoneous dribble the more I am convinced that you are an anti-semite (in disguise) and not for the reasons you think.

The above remarks, addressed to Disraeli, are an example of a distressing trait in this Forum: the tendency of some members to qualify non-Jews that disagree with our opinions or beliefs as anti-Semites.

Comes a fellow like Disraeli with interesting, although controversial opinions, trying to make a contribution to clarify issues and he's branded an anti-Semite because he dares to criticize Israel's positions.

Let's face it, present Israeli policies, are to say the least, controversial. Why shouldn't they be open to discussion from both Jews and Gentiles?

The problem with accusing someone with anti-semitism is that is one of those charges that cannot be disproved by the person involved. If someone accuses me of being a bird-hater, how can I disprove it? By filling my home with caged birds? Then I might be accused of cruelty to birds. By writing poems about birds? Then I might be accused of being an anti-birdist in disguise as Zionist does with Disraeli.

The way things are, there seems to be more than enough anti-Semitism in this blessed world. Why do we have to go around inventing more?

[danholo]

People have been branded antisemites too many times here. I have done it too. :(