Who Should Determine Israel's Fate? [Archive]

NewsGuy

04-09-2005, 06:12 PM

Who Should Determine Israel's Fate?
By Michael Rand

(www.IsraelForum.com) -- The recent turning point in Israel’s history regarding the decision to expel the Jewish population of the Gaza Strip raises a myriad of questions and has prompted a great deal of Jewish soul searching. Rather than rehashing the pervasive arguments about why the ethnic cleansing of Jews living in Israel is a moral outrage and political insanity, this article deals with the question of who should have the right to decide on giving away critical parts of the Jewish homeland. Should this degree of authority over the land of Israel be placed solely in the hands of Israeli citizens, or should landmark decisions regarding the Jewish homeland be brought to a vote by the entire worldwide Jewish community?

To begin, we should acknowledge that many Israeli voters feel disenfranchised by Prime Minister Sharon’s abandonment of his entire election platform. They correctly believe that their democratic rights have been violated by Sharon, and that Sharon and his newly found Leftist allies are assisting with the creation of a Jew-free terror State of Palestine. But these betrayed Israeli voters are not alone.

It has become apparent that rather than the Israeli government acting as a faithful custodian of the Jewish homeland, it has now taken upon itself to make decisions that affect the birthright of the Jewish people as a whole. And worse than simply discarding a strategically critical part of the land of Israel, the Israeli government is doing so without consulting its Israeli voters nor many, if not most, of the country’s benefactors who live outside Israel.

Why Pay for the Party?

When it comes to financing Israel’s political and social institutions, the Israeli government is first in line to beg the Jewish community for donations.

Since the establishment of the State of Israel, every Jewish community in the world has made a decision not to hold the Israeli public accountable for its own spending, but rather to let money flow freely from the worldwide Jewish community to Israel. There has never been a requirement of reporting on Israeli steps toward self-sufficiency, nor has there ever been presented a demand to repay the Jewish community for its generosity. Israelis never volunteered to do so, and Diaspora Jews have never asked for repayment.

Jewish communities have always been under the impression that the State of Israel is short of cash because it has been forced to spend an inordinate portion of its tax revenue on defending itself from Arab wars and Muslim terrorism – something that Jews worldwide have been more than willing to foot the bill for.

To Protect and Preserve

When all is said and done, Jews throughout the world typically view Israelis as the custodians of the Jewish homeland who have undertaken to preserve and defend the birthright of the Jewish people at the cost of the lives of many of the citizens of Israel. In return, the Jews of the world are willing to finance the day-to-day lives of Israelis for two main reasons:

First, the might of the Israeli army is a point of pride to Jews throughout the world. It is one of the only demonstrations that the Jewish people are a force to be reckoned with, despite their relatively tiny numbers. For the first time in a long history of expulsion, pogroms and genocide, there now exists a Jewish fighting force that has the means to defend the Jewish people, if need be. With the Israeli army’s vast capabilities, there is a presumed guarantee that preventing another Holocaust will not be left to the mercy of non-Jews.

Second, the members of Jewish communities throughout the world wish to preserve a guaranteed entitlement to be welcomed with open arms in Israel, should local anti-Semitism become an existential problem. As such, the Israelis are viewed as sentinels of sorts, who are supported by worldwide Jewry.

The Israeli Point of View

And, from the point of view of the citizens of Israel, they expect – and indeed, receive – financial and political support that would be unattainable without the generosity of the Jewish community. In fact, it is undeniable that Israel’s very existence is made possible only thanks to Jews of the Diaspora. Yet, “thanks” is a word seldom said by Israelis to their Jewish benefactors, something that deepens the growing divide between Israelis and Jews living outside Israel.

In light of the joint financing and joint birthright of Israelis and Jews worldwide concerning the land of Israel, the decision of the Israeli government not to preserve the Jewish communities of Gaza should be brought to vote not only before the citizens of Israel, but also before the members of Jewish communities worldwide.

The Israeli reluctance to consult with Diaspora Jews stems from the argument that if Jews living outside Israel want to influence Israeli policy, they should emigrate to Israel and vote for the political candidate of their choice. Israelis also often say that it is they who have lost the lives of loved ones rather than the Jews living outside Israel and, therefore, Israelis should determine their country’s own fate.

Biting the Hand that Feeds

While simplistic and emotionally appealing, the Israeli arguments for single-handedly determining the fate of the land of Israel are based on the false premise that Jews who do not live in Israel have no rights over the land.

But, in fact, the Jewish homeland is the birthright of all Jews, not just of Israelis. While maintaining the current Jewish ownership over the land of Israel requires fighting in the Israeli army, there are also other responsibilities that are being handled by worldwide Jewry, as mentioned earlier.

It is undeniable that preserving Jewish ownership of the Jewish homeland is a task that is accomplished by a partnership between the citizens of Israel and Jews living outside the country. Therefore, the decision whether, and under what circumstances should critical parts of the Jewish homeland be handed over to Arab aggressors should be made jointly. And, for this reason, Ariel Sharon and his Leftist allies are overstepping their authority and, essentially, biting the hand that feeds them.

* * *

Am I right on the mark or way off base?

sharonbn

04-10-2005, 02:50 AM

NewsGuy,

Speaking as a born Israeli, there is one point in the article which I agree with, and that's Israeli unthankfulness to the aid we receive from int'l Jewish community. This attitude comes from two reasons: one is our natural characteristic arrogance which makes it hard for us to acknowledge that we need help from an outside source. The second is a suspicion that this aid does not come for free and that we will be presented with the bill in a manner of intervention in our internal affairs. Well, maybe that day has come.

Now regarding the rest of the article, I disagree with all of it.

First, I don't find the Israeli army a source of pride. Maybe it comes from serving in the army and seeing it work from within. I can tell you is a revealing experience and it tends to lift the external glossy presentation that you might get from our military parades. Second, the army is a necessity, its not a goal to achieve and maintain, it is means to an end, and that end is peace. I wish for the day we can give up draft and make the army as small as possible. The Israeli army is way too dominant in Israeli society, and that's a bad influence. sometimes I think we're a drafted society.

If you're looking for a source of pride in Israel, May I suggest our scientific and high tech achievements, unmatched by many countries with far greater resources. I think that given the meager resources allocated to this area, Israeli scientific and high tech achievements are nothing short of a small miracle.

Second, the article claims that the two presented Israeli arguments are "simplistic" and "based on the false premise", However, for some reason it then chooses to ignore them instead of answering them. Instead, the article presents its non "simplistic" rational argument so succinctly summarized into one word: birthright. There is not one legal evidence which documents this obscure birthright. There is not one document which orders this birthright, not one authority which regulates rules for this birthrights. Who are the Jews that are included and excluded from this right to influence Israel's destiny? Who will make this decision? And perhaps most importantly, and not yet fully answered with complete consensus - who is a Jew?

To say that int'l Jews may influence Israel's destiny because of birthright is the quintessential appeal to emotion rather then reason.

And to my last point:

The article closes by saying "It is undeniable that preserving Jewish ownership of the Jewish homeland is a task that is accomplished by a partnership between the citizens of Israel and Jews living outside the country." I strongly object to this statement. It makes the assumption that it is better for Israel that int'l Jewish community will remain where it is. It is perhaps very convenient for Diaspora Jews to believe this, but I believe that you are much more needed in Israel. The issue is of course demographics, which is a problem that all the money in the world cannot solve. What good is strong large Israel if it doesn't have a strong large Jewish majority? and its not only that. Israeli economy and culture will benefit from such immigration, IMO. and its not only that. Its the realization of the Zionist dream to gather all Jews to their homeland. I don't say that you cannot be a Zionist and live in the States, but at least for us Israelis, the dream is that all of you come live with us.

Believe me when I say this: We want you to come here more than stay there and donate money.

goliath

04-10-2005, 06:01 AM

Nobody care about Demography ,The old Ytzak Shamir ,was kipping repeating this : If we can't have almost m.4 of migrant , very soon we will met face to face only one choice :
A lot of halfcast who will not be appreciate by both side , just because the adults think the young student or other hate the "other" but in fact it's doen't reflect reality.
And the death of Judaism.
It's not necessary to get an big IQ ,to forecast that.
Salaam and shaloom ,I don't see a complete simirilarity.....Just because one of those "philosophy " wants the destruction of the other one.
Demography is also the main problem for all the countries ,it's not convenient to discuss about that ,not polically correct..

KettleWhistle

04-10-2005, 02:05 PM

I think this is right-on. Israel was not created and hasn't been maintained by Israelis alone.

While simplistic and emotionally appealing, the Israeli arguments for single-handedly determining the fate of the land of Israel are based on the false premise that Jews who do not live in Israel have no rights over the land.

But, in fact, the Jewish homeland is the birthright of all Jews, not just of Israelis. While maintaining the current Jewish ownership over the land of Israel requires fighting in the Israeli army, there are also other responsibilities that are being handled by worldwide Jewry, as mentioned earlier.

It is undeniable that preserving Jewish ownership of the Jewish homeland is a task that is accomplished by a partnership between the citizens of Israel and Jews living outside the country. Therefore, the decision whether, and under what circumstances should critical parts of the Jewish homeland be handed over to Arab aggressors should be made jointly. And, for this reason, Ariel Sharon and his Leftist allies are overstepping their authority and, essentially, biting the hand that feeds them.

KettleWhistle

04-10-2005, 02:16 PM

First, I don't find the Israeli army a source of pride. Maybe it comes from serving in the army and seeing it work from within. I can tell you is a revealing experience and it tends to lift the external glossy presentation that you might get from our military parades. Second, the army is a necessity, its not a goal to achieve and maintain, it is means to an end, and that end is peace. I wish for the day we can give up draft and make the army as small as possible.
This is a sad and dangerous way of thinking. I really hope few Sabras share this view. I know very few olim do. If you think that Jews will EVER live in peace, you are simply delusional. We have never had peace and we never will. This is a reality that must be approached with heartless pragmatism and knowledge of our history. When we allow ourselfves to be disarmed, we get massacred. That's a fact.

If you're looking for a source of pride in Israel, May I suggest our scientific and high tech achievements, unmatched by many countries with far greater resources. I think that given the meager resources allocated to this area, Israeli scientific and high tech achievements are nothing short of a small miracle.
No, it is neither a miracle, nor is it an Israeli achievement. It is a result of having many talented and well-educted olim, mostly from Eastern Europe. These people weren't educated in Israel, and Israel doesn't even have the infrastructure to give that many people the higher education that made Israel's high tech sector noticable. And with your recent reforms in secondary education, it will only get worse. The Israelis need to get off their high horse, and become realistic in appraising Israel's accomplishments.

Believe me when I say this: We want you to come here more than stay there and donate money. And here's an indication of the biggest problem: it's "we" and "you." As long you see us as two separate entities, we will only continue to have more and more problems and discontent among those who live in Israel and those who live elsewhere.

Luke90

04-11-2005, 05:24 AM

Regardless of the theoretical arguments, surely there are enormous practical problems in giving other Jews a vote on the issue. Organising a worldwide vote can't be cheap.
Who exactly would qualify to vote? The article mentions financial support, so is it only Jews who have given money to Israel who get a vote? Presumably not, because then you would have a situation where people were buying votes. Is it Jews by birth or by conversion?

sharonbn

04-11-2005, 05:35 AM

Luke90

04-11-2005, 05:38 AM

When it comes to financing Israel’s political and social institutions, the Israeli government is first in line to beg the Jewish community for donations.
The argument that they should have influence because they contribute financially makes a certain amount of sense. However, surely that financial contribution already gives them influence. Any institution has to take into account the views of its financial contributors. If the world's Jews don't like what the government does they can vote with their feet and stop giving money, or just threaten to do so.
The citizens of a country get a vote because they have no choice about supporting the government financially. Taxes being rather hard to avoid.

Second, the members of Jewish communities throughout the world wish to preserve a guaranteed entitlement to be welcomed with open arms in Israel, should local anti-Semitism become an existential problem. As such, the Israelis are viewed as sentinels of sorts, who are supported by worldwide Jewry.
Does the pullout significantly reduce that possibility?

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 07:06 AM

Israeli electoral politics are a mess to begin with. They don't really have elections in the sense that disapora Jews understand.

And let's be clear. There only a few diaspora countries that matter: The US & Canada, UK, France, Russia. Central Europe, the Causcuses, India, Asia, Africa and Iran don't count.

Opening it up to us would only make it worse, more chaotic. If you think airing our dirty laundry is bad form, you can't imagine what including all the diaspora would do. It would be populism writ large with every born again Libertarian screaming that their personal financial contribution guarantees them a seat at the policy table. And don't they get to vote with their dollars now? Maybe the Republicans here don't like what they perceive as some radical leftist cabal centered in Hollywood and Westchester doling out their money but that's probably an issue more related to American politics than Israel.

I've always said it makes no sense for us to be more Zionist than Israel. If this is how they wish to run their own legitimate, legally founded country then so be it. If that's not Jewish enough for some then I recommend that they work to improve the health of their own Jewish communities which are withering away.

sharonbn

04-11-2005, 07:21 AM

And let's be clear. There only a few diaspora countries that matter: The US & Canada, UK, France, Russia. Central Europe, the Causcuses, India, Asia, Africa and Iran don't count.

That's the first time I hear a Jew saying there are some Jews who are worth more then others.

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 07:37 AM

Then you're not listening. The 350 Jews in Cairo or the 5000 in Morocco or 20000 in Mashad don't really get a meaingful vote, were one to exist, in relation to the 1 million in France and England. If you want to shape your internal policies in relation to what the Jews in Port Elizabeth South Africa, who if you know them, are very comfortable where they live, and never have any intention of coming to Israel and don't give very much to you then you are just being stupid. As stupid as the UN who basically let anyone who could scratch their mark on a piece of paper in 1948 to classify themselves as a Palestinian refugee unto the 20th generation. Of course if you want more of the same internal squabbling, chaos, endless agendas, inertia and political roadblocks to accomplishing anything then sign up my community in Raleigh. I promise you most of them would vote to give dogs and cats citizenship status and equal rights in Israel before they noticed that Israeli children were hungry. That's our stupid agenda and you are free to inherit it.

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 07:39 AM

On the other hand if you just want a feel good group hug kumbaya session then you don't need political activism and force to do that. Make all the diaspora Jews included in some non political item or front. Like maybe making Jewish communities better. But I guess that's too hard and what would we do if all the nasty American bullies appropriated that agenda at the expense of the 5000 Polish Jews deluded enough to continue to live there? Boo Hoo no one listens.

sharonbn

04-11-2005, 09:00 AM

I think it is extremely arrogant of an American to speak on behalf of the South African community and declare that they have good lifes and don't care about Israel. I, with all my arrogance don't presume to know what other Jews feel or think about Israel and certainly don't feel entitled to exclude them from participating in setting the destiny of their own people.

FYI, Cyril Kern comes from South Africa and he donated only a 'few' millions to Israel.

and about the smal Egyptian and Morrocan communitites. they may be small but they need Israel more then the American Jews, who seem to live "good lives" and don't have any plans to come to Israel.

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 09:36 AM

Like I said if you want everyone's opinion, have at it. The more I listen to Sabras the more I come to the conclusion that you want to be free to do whatever the hell you want as long as you can tell all the Jews in the US to go pound sand. Fine by me - really if American Jews stopped sending their guilt money to Israel tomorrow it wouldn't bother me in the least. You don't like us and we frankly don't like you. We give for the same reason Americans are the biggest charitible donors in the world, generally. It's what we do. Israel, homeless shelters, food banks, animal rights, blah blah blah. You think you can dare us because we'll always come back for more. Don't count on it. Unquestioned uncritical American Jewish support for Israel is around 50% and dropping.

In the meantime you go help those Maghreb Jews. Maybe you can partner them with the Gazans and Ethiopians and dump them all in the Negev. I really don't see you helping them there where they live or moving to improve their condition there. And if you ever wanted to mount a program to move them all back to Israel they'd all wind up as second class citizens to their modern worldly Sabras who know better. You know it, I know it.

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 09:38 AM

Bottom line; run your own country and stop looking to us to help you share the responsibility for it. If someone from the old country demanded a voice in running my state I tell them to ride their beet wagon back to the shetl.

varian

04-11-2005, 10:13 AM

And let's be clear. There only a few diaspora countries that matter: The US & Canada, UK, France, Russia. Central Europe, the Causcuses, India, Asia, Africa and Iran don't count.

An excellent point!!! The above mentioned, along with many other podunk countries, do not have a right to enter their opinions in this matter of Israel's sovereignty. (DAMN - did I just agree with Medio???)

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 11:02 AM

I think it is extremely arrogant of an American to speak on behalf of the South African community and declare that they have good lifes and don't care about Israel.

That's not an opinion that's a fact born of financial contribution as well as the number of olim relative to the total population that you see. One or two rich Jewish Boers doesn't mean anything. I'll trade you an Edgar Bronfman and his ultraliberal let's make everyone a sweater and hug the Palestinians world view for whole bunch of other people if you prefer.

I, with all my arrogance don't presume to know what other Jews feel or think about Israel and certainly don't feel entitled to exclude them from participating in setting the destiny of their own people.

I don't care what they feel. Their voices will get drowned out. It's not by accident that there are fewer Jews in the Maghreb than are in post Shoah Poland today. The only Jewish populations except for Israel - across the entire region are Tunisia, Morocco and Iran totalling perhaps 33,000 people, most of them in Mashad, Iran. Compared to 400,000 in Argentina and Brazil. If Tunisia gets a significant voice then so does Paraguay or Guatamala.

FYI, Cyril Kern comes from South Africa and he donated only a 'few' millions to Israel.

and about the smal Egyptian and Morrocan communitites. they may be small but they need Israel more then the American Jews, who seem to live "good lives" and don't have any plans to come to Israel.[/QUOTE]

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 11:02 AM

That's not an opinion that's a fact born of financial contribution as well as the number of olim relative to the total population that you see. One or two rich Jewish Boers doesn't mean anything. I'll trade you an Edgar Bronfman and his ultraliberal let's make everyone a sweater and hug the Palestinians world view for whole bunch of other people if you prefer.

I don't care what they feel. Their voices will get drowned out. It's not by accident that there are fewer Jews in the Maghreb than are in post Shoah Poland today. The only Jewish populations except for Israel - across the entire region are Tunisia, Morocco and Iran totalling perhaps 33,000 people, most of them in Mashad, Iran. Compared to 400,000 in Argentina and Brazil. If Tunisia gets a significant voice then so does Paraguay or Guatamala.

KettleWhistle

04-11-2005, 11:05 AM

This is simply not true.
Evidence: The two Israeli scientists who won the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry are Isralis and products of the Israeli education system.
bla...bla...bla

I was taking about the technology sector, not an occasional scientist. 2 scientists doing basic research aren't that big of an achievement. Plenty of Jews won Nobel prizes. A technology industry is an achievement of the olim. Having 64 engineers per every 100 working adults is a result of aliah, and unless Israelis get serious, this condition won't last very long, and neither will Israel's tech sector.

KettleWhistle

04-11-2005, 11:09 AM

And let's be clear. There only a few diaspora countries that matter: The US & Canada, UK, France, Russia. Central Europe, the Causcuses, India, Asia, Africa and Iran don't count.

Russia with it's russified Jews, France with it's anti-Israeli Jews, and the tiny UK Jewish community do not matter.

sharonbn

04-11-2005, 12:09 PM

Like I said if you want everyone's opinion, have at it.
No I don't want everyone's opinion. I don't want anyone's opinion. All I said is that I don't presume to know who loves or cares for Israel, and I don't count love in dollars.

The more I listen to Sabras the more I come to the conclusion that you want to be free to do whatever the hell you want as long as you can tell all the Jews in the US to go pound sand.
I didn't say that either. I guess offense is the best defense, and the hell with the facts, the hell with accuracy or even listening to the other party. Lets all just shout at each other.

Fine by me - really if American Jews stopped sending their guilt money to Israel tomorrow it wouldn't bother me in the least.
It wouldn't bother me either. You are officialy excused. Just don't come whining to us after the first swastika is painted on your door.

You don't like us and we frankly don't like you.
so the old "we" "you" distinction.... hmm according to KW thats Israelis' rethoric, isn't it?

We give for the same reason Americans are the biggest charitible donors in the world,
Thank you Sir! can I have another?

In the meantime you go help those Maghreb Jews. Maybe you can partner them with the Gazans and Ethiopians and dump them all in the Negev. I really don't see you helping them there where they live or moving to improve their condition there. And if you ever wanted to mount a program to move them all back to Israel they'd all wind up as second class citizens to their modern worldly Sabras who know better. You know it, I know it.
Sorry for not being Perfect. We cannot all be the charitable philantropic fatherly sheltering all-loving Americans (except for the Mahgreb Jews, Africa, ME, FE, EE, India, SA, other floating islands)

sharonbn

04-11-2005, 12:13 PM

Bottom line; run your own country and stop looking to us to help you share the responsibility for it.
Bottom Line: we're doing exactly that. Advice is welcome. Responsibility lies solely on our sholders.

sharonbn

04-11-2005, 12:23 PM

I was taking about the technology sector, not an occasional scientist. 2 scientists doing basic research aren't that big of an achievement. Plenty of Jews won Nobel prizes. A technology industry is an achievement of the olim. Having 64 engineers per every 100 working adults is a result of aliah, and unless Israelis get serious, this condition won't last very long, and neither will Israel's tech sector.
and I was talking about the Israeli scientific community and the high tech industry. Both commnities feed and nurture each other. and thanks for the encouragement. I'm sure the two Nobel prize winners would love your assessment of their achivement.

As long as we're on the subject of Israeli high tech industry. I myself am part of that industry (employed in Veritas Israel for the last 4 years), before that I was in Amdocs (the largest software company in Israel) for seven years. I have friends in Comverse, Netcom, Intel, Nice, Main Control, Microsense and more. and I can tell you that over 75% of employees in these companies are born Israelis.

KettleWhistle

04-11-2005, 12:55 PM

I wasn't giving you incouragement. It was constructive and realistic criticism. It is not a big deal for a Jew to win a Nobel Prize. It is an achievement, not overachievement, and if you think it is something speacial, you are simply setting the bar too low.

Regarding the companies you listed, aside from the fact that I never heard of more than half of them, many start-ups are in fact a result of the massive aliah. Having so many people with higher education is a result of the massive aliah. And right now, Israel neither has the infrastructure to educate this many people, nor does it have any plans for one. Add to that the fact that your schooling system is lousy, and the recent reforms modeled after the American system are guaranteed to make it worse. So bragging about those achievements is much like the bragging that Israelis used to do about having canned foods in cans with pop-off tops in 60s or the more recent bragging about having cellphones.

Mira

04-11-2005, 02:07 PM

Regarding the companies you listed, aside from the fact that I never heard of more than half of them, many start-ups are in fact a result of the massive aliah.
Most people who have any association with high tech in the Bay Area have heard of those companies. Many of the start-ups in Israel are the result of American and Israeli venture capital firms. In any event, budget cuts for education in Israel is problematic.

Mira

04-11-2005, 02:49 PM

Israel's whole raison d'etre from the very beginning was a place of refuge for Jews, to promote Jewish immigration and eventually negate the diaspora. For many Jews (Sephardim, Falashmura, some Soviet Jewry...) it has been just that. Not only has that not happened with North American Jewry, but the Jewish community in the United States has wound up being the strongest diaspora in our history since, well...Babylon. Israel's existence did not fully negate the diaspora and Israel still relies heavily on it for political and economic support. So there is a natural tension. Israel might be "the promised land," but the United States is "the land of promise," and the US is attracting more Israelis to its shores than Israel is attracting American Jews. Also, and I've seen this myself, when Israelis move to the US, most don't integrate themselves into the Jewish commmunity because Jewish identity in the US is still largely based on Judaism and Jewish tradition. If these yordim plan to settle in the US permanently (as seems to be the case) then more needs to be done to reinforce their sense of Jewish, as opposed to Israeli, identity. Otherwise, they will be lost within one, maybe two generations.

Where I think that the oppinions of diaspora Jews should weigh in is in the debate on "Who is a Jew," for purposes of the Law of Return. The law of return, afterall, is the reciprocal pledge that we get in exchange for our economic and political support. I think that Israelis should take the oppinions of diaspora Jewry into consideration for purposes of determining foreign / defense policy, but I am against diaspora Jews ending all support for Israel if they do not agree with the country's policies. If Jews feel strongly about changing the direction of Israeli policy, then they should move to Israel and put their kids in uniform and then fight to change Israel's policies from the inside.

Everything beyond that is just ducks and bunnies. Sorry, I've wanted to use that expression for a while now. It's meaningless, but I like it. :D In terms of building stronger Jewish communities, a constructive conversation about that can and is taking place...just like between Palestine and Babylon.

KettleWhistle

04-11-2005, 02:53 PM

Venture capitalists do not invest just for the heck of it. The reason for all that investment is such incredible number of people with higher technical education.

As for budget cuts, that's a symptom of the problem. Israel simply doesn't have a comprehensive strategy to provide 65% of its population with quality higher education. More so, they recently decentralized secondary education by limiting the amount of control their Ministry of Education can have over individual school curriculae. This strategy has been proven to be a failure by all the problems of the American secondary education system, which is far inferior to those of countries that have centralized control over education. The latter provides that the core subjects taught in every single school in the country are the same, taught the same amount of hours, and from the same textbooks. It simply educates the students equally, faster, better, and cheaper. It really boggles the mind that somebody would chose an inferior and more expensive system instead.

SteveK

04-11-2005, 03:03 PM

NewsGuy,

I finally figured out what "front page articles" are here. I never view "Israel News" or related analyses on foreign websites. I have plenty of info and analyses first hand here in Israel without wasting time on reading the diaspora re-hashes. But, since you mentioned it, so I read it.

You diaspora Jews, especially you Americans, are not credible with Israelis.

Either your anxieties relate Israel as a place to run if you the "Jews" are persecuted, or your fears drive you to hide behind the coat tails of Uncle Sam, if you the "Americans" are intimidated for your "dual loyalties" when your government pressures/threatens Israel. And, when you again feel yourselves invincible to show your faces to the world, then Israel becomes your personal arena, with the Israelis as your pet gladiators, from whom you demand their tribute, and proclaiming: "I, who am about to die, salute you!".

Mediocrates

04-11-2005, 03:16 PM

KettleWhistle

04-11-2005, 03:29 PM

Mira

04-11-2005, 03:36 PM

Most of the rest of diaspora Jews have spoken on who is a Jew and who is entitled to call themselves Jewish. The people Israel put in charge of vetting that choice have a completely different view of it. Israeli Rabbinic authorities have taken the hard edge of the Orthodox for their guidance and prefer to have a limited exclusionary isolated self purified Judaism. The secular Israelis prefer to have a limited exclusionary isolated self purifed zionism.

High Court decides Law of Return applies to Reform converts
After six years, seven justices, headed by Supreme Court President Judge Aharon Barak, ruled in favor of the petitioners; four ruled against.
Globes' correspondent 31 Mar 05 12:36

IDF Radio (Galei Zahal) reports that the High Court of Justice has taken a momentous decision on the question of "Who is a Jew". An expanded 11-judge panel ruled that the Law of Return (5710-1950) applies to people who converted abroad, known as "jump converts".
The court ruled on two petitions filed by the Center for Jewish Pluralism and the World Union for Progressive Judaism on behalf of 15 temporarily residents in Israel who studied for Reform conversions, which they completed abroad. Upon their return to Israel, they requested recognition under the Law of Return, but were refused. Today, the High Court of Justice accepted their petition to be recognized as Jews. This is a highly contentious issue, involving state and religion.

Seven justices, headed by Supreme Court President Judge Aharon Barak, ruled in favor of the petitioners; four ruled against. The hearing on the petition lasted six years. The ruling does not settle the question of conversion in Israel, however. MK Shaul Yahalom (National Religious Party) said in response. "The Supreme Court is wrong. We're talking about Reform conversions, which are fictitious."

http://new.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=899837&fid=942

They're all starting to sound like Palestinians with their national mythology no one but them is entitled to understand.
What do mean by starting to? ;) Well...if you prefer a different flavor, there are the New Historians.... ;)

Mira

04-11-2005, 03:44 PM

KettleWhistle

04-11-2005, 04:02 PM

I honestly don't understand what you mean by any of that.

NewsGuy

04-11-2005, 07:38 PM

NewsGuy,

I finally figured out what "front page articles" are here.

Good detective work, Steve. I'm proud of you.

Mira

04-12-2005, 07:02 AM

I honestly don't understand what you mean by any of that.
I'm not good at condensing other people's thoughts and I honestly don't enjoy discussing these matters with you, Kettle, so I'll say very broadly the difference that I see between Buber and Herzl. I don't agree with much of what Buber wrote; he was very naive when it came to matters of Arab nationalism and the political realities of his day, even though much of his criticisms have proven reasonably prophetic. While Herzl wanted to abandon Jewish tradition, Buber wanted to revitalize our heritage through Zionism.

A traditionalist insists on literal truth and looks at the events in the torah as spiritual miracles. A modernist sees them as impressive fantasies or fictions. Buber was interested in a third approach towards our heritage. Rather than throw away Jewish wisdom simply because on its surface it seems incompatible with the modern world, you enter into a dialogue with it. The early Zionists lived in fellowship with the land. It was a community of little communities and everyone worked for collective aims. That is pretty much gone now and has been replaced by the spirit of individualism. Israel is supposed to be the spiritual center of Jewish hopes and aspirations. Where is the spiritual center of this center?

If you could go back in time to those small communities and infuse all their efforts with biblical teachings and hasidic / sephardic wisdom gained through the ages, then we may have had a modern Zionist revitalization of Judaism. But Herzl did his best to take Judaism out of the equation. He was focused on the political principle of Jewish soverignty. The only cultural manifestations of Judaism that his Zionism provided was a love for the biblical land, the rebirth of hebrew and the national holidays, the latter two which are today, two of the most distinguishing features of Israeli society from a Jewish perspective. Many Jews, including some so called rabbis in the diaspora don't speak hebrew and yet a 10 year old kid in Israel can pick up any text in the original hebrew and read it. That is a major advantage that Israel has over the diaspora. Many Jews in the diaspora only celebrate the High Holidays, the lesser holidays pass them by without notice. That's not the case in Israel. Buber saw in Zionism the opportunity for a Jewish renaissance. Herzl saw it as a purely political antidote to anti-semitism. Buber saw in Zionism the opportunity to correct the neagtive effects of both ghetto Judaism and the enlightenment. Herzl was driven by injustices like what he witnessed in the Dreyfus trial. Herzl was focused on attaining political rights for the Jewish People. Zionism for Buber meant a return to his Jewish roots, which Herzl never had, and an escape from assimilation that, except for his political activity, defined Herzl his entire life. Herzl's Zionism won and today, many Israelis look to the US and Europe for cultural values and norms.

KettleWhistle

04-12-2005, 10:12 AM

I still don't understand what any of it has to do with what I wrote, or with your "empty shell" comment.

SteveK

04-12-2005, 12:13 PM

Ethnic Jews are Jews. Religion, Judaism, or any other, has nothing to do with it. It is an ethnic identity. American Jews seem to have forgotten that FACT. Zionism, by definition, and if viewed in proper historical context, is a movement among ethnic Jews, i.e. people of Hebrew descent to return to their native land. Israelis and many others seem to have lost the sight of that.

Mira:

You want to trade 5000+ years of Jewish heritage and thought for an empty shell...be my guest. I prefer Buber's Zionism to Herzl's Zionism, revitalization of our heritage over reducing us into some base sociological grouping.

KW,

This is exactly precisely what Zionism is about. It was a political movement for Jews to return to their ancient homeland. But, just to return to your Homeland and push away the very heritage that made you understand that the Land of Israel is your Homeland would produce just an empty shell here.

I don't call Israel a totally empty shell void of any acknowledgement and acceptance of our Jewish heritage. However, the issue of bringing our heritage out of just the religious movements here and into the national level
is a top priority and one which requires a united Torah leadership.

Israelis also currently relate to their Jewish heritage from the diaspora perspective of four walls of religious movements and Rabbinic dynasties.
The "shell" of Zionism will fill real fast with our heritage once we Israelis break out of these same four walls, and enter into our horizons offered by the re-birth of our sovereign Jewish Homeland.

Our true Jewish heritage is about matters of State and sovereign citizens, and not about matters of religious movements and synagogue membership rolls.

And, for us Israelis to achieve this, we don't have to wait for any of you to make aliyah.

KettleWhistle

04-12-2005, 12:21 PM

KW,

This is exactly precisely what Zionism is about. It was a political movement for Jews to return to their ancient homeland. But, just to return to your Homeland and push away the very heritage that made you understand that the Land of Israel is your Homeland would produce just an empty shell here.
I never said the heritage should be pushed away or discarded. I don't need to believe in God to appreciate and celebrate my heritage and culture.

SteveK

04-12-2005, 12:45 PM

Good detective work, Steve. I'm proud of you.

NewsGuy,

If you ask Israelis about companies like IBM, Motorola, Intel or Microsoft, they would not only tell you that these companies are well known and respected to them, but they would tell you that these companies have an honored presence here in Israel.

If you ask Israelis to tell you something about well known diaspora Jews or organizations or some indication from them of an accepted "honored presence" here in Israel of diaspora Jews, I think they would be speechless, and that's something very rare for especially native Israelis.

You diaspora Jews are masters at running (I don't speak here from persecution, but executive know how) institutions. Maybe you all should pool your financial resources for contributions here and make an institution, a foundation, which would be that kind of honored presence here in Israel representing you all, and one which would deal with a variety of issues and funding needs,- venture capital, volunteers, aliyah, social, etc.

I think this great respect and admiration from Israelis that you so crave could be more realistic with your image as a real honored institutionalized presence here, instead of one of absentee landlords, and warlords, and Jewish lords of nobility.

By pooling all your resources in an honored institutionalized presence here, you would be able to maintain the kind of control which would increase your infliuence here and maybe even legitimately.

Otherwise, the Israelis see just bunches of footprints of you diaspora Jews going away from Ben Gurion Airport, and then coming back to it. At least, bring us to see you as one head and body that we can call "Bigfoot".

SteveK

04-12-2005, 01:07 PM

I never said the heritage should be pushed away or discarded. I don't need to believe in God to appreciate and celebrate my heritage and culture.

When a still non-existant national united Torah leadership here in Israel will
bring God as the top priority to the State agenda, I think you will be influenced to change your mind.

My guess is that you may feel embarrased now to voice your faith in God because God is still guilty by His association with just religious movements and Rabbinic dynasties. I do express my faith in God. But, I'm still embarrassed to wear a kipa in public here in Israel. When I study for an hour at my place of work each day with about 30 others and very Torah observant Israelis, I'm the only one who takes his kipa off as he leaves the meeting room.

I want the real thing. I don't want to be a Jew here because of these four walls of religious movements and Rabbininc dynasties. I want to be a Jew here because Israel has fully returned to its heritage. I will be very proud to follow the national Torah leadership if one will ever emerge here. Then, I don't think that any Israeli will continue to be embarrassed at calling himself/herself a Jew, because the Jew will finally be resolved into being an Israeli.

KettleWhistle

04-12-2005, 01:34 PM

When a still non-existant national united Torah leadership here in Israel will
bring God as the top priority to the State agenda, I think you will be influenced to change your mind.

My guess is that you may feel embarrased now to voice your faith in God because God is still guilty by His association with just religious movements and Rabbinic dynasties. I do express my faith in God. But, I'm still embarrassed to wear a kipa in public here in Israel. bla.. bla.. bla..

I see no reason to be embarassed about my convictions, and I certainly would have no problem wearing a kipa. Nor am I inclined to follow something I don't believe in, namely God.

SteveK

04-12-2005, 02:06 PM

I see no reason to be embarassed about my convictions, and I certainly would have no problem wearing a kipa. Nor am I inclined to follow something I don't believe in, namely God.

KW,

Would you put on a kipa now at home and start wearing it in public?

KettleWhistle

04-12-2005, 02:16 PM

If I believed in God and the veracity of Judaism, I would have.

SteveK

04-12-2005, 02:18 PM

If I believed in God and the veracity of Judaism, I would have.

KW,

OK. So, what is stopping your belief in God?

KettleWhistle

04-12-2005, 02:47 PM

Nothing is "stopping" it. I just don't believe in it, just like I don't believe in the tooth fairy, Peter Pan, and other fiction.

Mediocrates

04-13-2005, 06:57 AM

http://www.azure.org.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=247

The problems with Israeli electoral politics and separation of power among the different branches solidifies the trend toward permanent inaction and politcal impotence. Israel's lack of a Constitution is causing and is a symptom of the general dissolution of the Jewish character of the state. In the end I think the risk to Israel is not, as the radicals would lead you to believe, civil war. But instead the risk is either fascism, as a form of benign dictatorship, or outright political dissolution and collapse. Is a Constitution a way out of this? Read on.

SteveMetch

04-13-2005, 10:52 AM

The main strategic question surrounding the land give back in Gaza is this. When the final lines are drawn (as defined by the separation fence) between the Jordanian Muslims living predominately in Judea and Samaria (aka Palestinians) and Jewish nation of Israel will there be any credit given to the land given to the Egyptian Muslims in Gaza (aka also known as Palestinians).

If Israel is successful in exchanging Gaza for Jerusalem and larger sections of their historic homeland in Judea and Samaria then it was a good trade all things considered. Unfortunately, the fundamentals of Islam prevent good Muslims, as defined by the Koran not Islamic apologists (whether by wishful thinking, ignorance or deceit), from returning any former Islamic lands (Dar-Islam) to non-Muslims. To do so is an affront to the will of Allah (Meccan Moon God).

In the end it may only be fools bargain Sharon is attempting to do if the opposing negotiating party actual believes or must respect the teachings of Islam.

The only solution in the end is more liberal secular democracy, women’s rights, and freedom of religion in Muslim lands.

The positive end result is less practicing Muslims. At which point the security fence will not be needed and the two nations one Jewish and the other former Muslims can live together in peace.

Then again there is the tactical question of having to maintain so many security personal for so few Israel citizens in Gaza. Maybe its one step back for two steps forward.

What the Israelis in Gaze have built is very impressive. I doubt its new owners will do anything but destroy it over time like a slum culture does in the inner city. Culture matters and a culture is defined by its religion.

Mediocrates

04-13-2005, 11:10 AM

gandolf2005

04-13-2005, 01:19 PM

Then again there is the tactical question of having to maintain so many security personal for so few Israel citizens in Gaza. Maybe its one step back for two steps forward.

Sharon was army his whole life, I belive he thinks in Military requirments and security, I also have grave doubts on gaza...Im just hoping Sharron will again
show his genius as he has in the past.

You bet Bush would like a final agreement to crown his 2nd term and Sharon could also go out in glory if it all works.

SteveMetch

04-13-2005, 05:51 PM

Of course you're all nelgecting the fact, the FACT, that the US administration, the so called best friends the Israelis ever had is demanding that Sharon evacuate all of Samaria and most of Judea in exchange for faint promises they won't demand an evacuation of virtually all of East Jerusalem as well. It was a centerpiece of Sharon's 'coming to the mountain' here that Bush learned to pronounce Maaleh Adumim in order to tell Sharon to stop maintaining it.

Build a wall, extensively build on the other side of that wall, wait 200 years, shazam you have a permanent and final border.

Temporary solutions, if in place long enough, have a way of becoming permanent all by themselves.

Don't confuse what the press and government want us to know with reality.

Mira

04-14-2005, 12:42 PM

Of course you're all nelgecting the fact, the FACT, that the US administration, the so called best friends the Israelis ever had is demanding that Sharon evacuate all of Samaria and most of Judea in exchange for faint promises they won't demand an evacuation of virtually all of East Jerusalem as well. It was a centerpiece of Sharon's 'coming to the mountain' here that Bush learned to pronounce Maaleh Adumim in order to tell Sharon to stop maintaining it.

It says already in the Sayings of the Fathers to not trust politicians because they use you when it suits them and betray you when they have no use for you anymore.

As somewhat of an aside, every single time Bush mentions releasing more Palestinian prisoners as a confidence building measure for the Palestinians, I would like to see Sharon bring up Jonathan Pollard.

goliath

04-17-2005, 12:13 PM

[QUOTE=Mira]It says already in the Sayings of the Fathers to not trust politicians because they use you when it suits them and betray you when they have no use for you anymore
Right Mira ,I hardly can trust myself...
As somewhat of an aside, every single time Bush mentions releasing more Palestinian prisoners as a confidence building measure for the Palestinians, I would like to see Sharon bring up Jonathan Pollard.
And maybe propose to J.P. any vacation in his Greek Island?

KSO

04-17-2005, 04:08 PM

[QUOTE=Mira]

And maybe propose to J.P. any vacation in his Greek Island?

The greek island affair was an act by Ariel Sharon the corrupted warmunger, now our PM is Abu-Omri who is a good guy!

Zlatorog

04-23-2005, 12:31 PM

This is a sad and dangerous way of thinking. I really hope few Sabras share this view. I know very few olim do. If you think that Jews will EVER live in peace, you are simply delusional. We have never had peace and we never will. This is a reality that must be approached with heartless pragmatism and knowledge of our history. When we allow ourselfves to be disarmed, we get massacred. That's a fact.

My generetion was the last that had 'Defence' in schools, but it was an impossible task for an army officer to teach anything at all, most often they were kept in classrooms, that's how hostile we were. Some time ago a teen band made a moronic video -

mms://wmedia.siol.net/siol/spoti/gameOver&bbt-vrniSe.wmv

- I have no idea what the army's doing unless I read foreign forums.

http://www.nato.int/pictures/2004/040803/b040803a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/7720352.jpg

http://www.slovenskavojska.si/images/dogodki/2005/200502/p20050209_02.jpg

http://www.afnorth.nato.int/ISAF/images/kam_air_plane_crash/images/014_planecrash.jpg

http://www.slovenskavojska.si/images/dogodki/2004/200405/isaf06.jpg

No, it is neither a miracle, nor is it an Israeli achievement. It is a result of having many talented and well-educted olim, mostly from Eastern Europe. These people weren't educated in Israel, and Israel doesn't even have the infrastructure to give that many people the higher education that made Israel's high tech sector noticable. And with your recent reforms in secondary education, it will only get worse. The Israelis need to get off their high horse, and become realistic in appraising Israel's accomplishments.

A vehicle made here and sold in lets say Portugal is most likely to have israeli armory etc.

An army in Eastern Europe
http://www.slovenskavojska.si/video/opk/uc_vipava_dolgi.mpg

Justcurious

04-26-2005, 04:25 AM

The two Israeli scientists who won the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry are Isralis and products of the Israeli education system.[/url]

Well done! Considering that the Israeli education system is far from the top in this new survey by the Educational Policy Institute: http://www.educationalpolicy.org/pdf/Global2005.pdf

Womble

04-26-2005, 04:45 AM

No, it is neither a miracle, nor is it an Israeli achievement. It is a result of having many talented and well-educted olim, mostly from Eastern Europe. These people weren't educated in Israel, and Israel doesn't even have the infrastructure to give that many people the higher education that made Israel's high tech sector noticable. And with your recent reforms in secondary education, it will only get worse. The Israelis need to get off their high horse, and become realistic in appraising Israel's accomplishments.
That's not true. Israel was successful before the great wave of well-educated Russian and other immigrants as well. Even now the majority of the Israeli software and bio-tech start-ups are created and run by the "native" Israelis (in fact, most of the software start-ups were established by the just-out-of-army young men who put their discharge gifts together and founded a company. A prime example of that was the famous Mirabilis, creators of the instant messenger software). Israeli high-tech sector is Israel's very own. Another important factor is Israel's unique needs and problems, which demand maximum creativity from those who try to solve it. Much of Israel's unique technology is born out of the army needs and only then unleashed onto the private sector.
Plus, even in the case of the olim contributing to Israeli high tech development, the achievement is still Israel's, because it was Israel who had created the conditions in which these people could put their knowlege to use.

sharonbn

04-26-2005, 05:32 AM

like your sig, Womble

Reffo

04-26-2005, 06:19 AM

I just read through this whole thread and as one would expect, I identify with some opinions and disagree with some others. However, the opinions that I identified with most are:
If you're looking for a source of pride in Israel, May I suggest our scientific and high tech achievements, unmatched by many countries with far greater resources. I think that given the meager resources allocated to this area, Israeli scientific and high tech achievements are nothing short of a small miracle.
but I believe that you are much more needed in Israel. The issue is of course demographics, which is a problem that all the money in the world cannot solve. What good is strong large Israel if it doesn't have a strong large Jewish majority? and its not only that. Israeli economy and culture will benefit from such immigration, IMO. and its not only that. Its the realization of the Zionist dream to gather all Jews to their homeland. I don't say that you cannot be a Zionist and live in the States, but at least for us Israelis, the dream is that all of you come live with us.
Where I think that the oppinions of diaspora Jews should weigh in is in the debate on "Who is a Jew," for purposes of the Law of Return. The law of return, afterall, is the reciprocal pledge that we get in exchange for our economic and political support. I think that Israelis should take the oppinions of diaspora Jewry into consideration for purposes of determining foreign / defense policy, but I am against diaspora Jews ending all support for Israel if they do not agree with the country's policies. If Jews feel strongly about changing the direction of Israeli policy, then they should move to Israel and put their kids in uniform and then fight to change Israel's policies from the inside.
And:
This is a sad and dangerous way of thinking. I really hope few Sabras share this view. I know very few olim do. If you think that Jews will EVER live in peace, you are simply delusional. We have never had peace and we never will. This is a reality that must be approached with heartless pragmatism and knowledge of our history. When we allow ourselfves to be disarmed, we get massacred. That's a fact.

Well, in this instance I found it easier to quote the above opinions.......no point in reinventing the wheel.....

Mediocrates

04-26-2005, 06:50 AM

Well done! Considering that the Israeli education system is far from the top in this new survey by the Educational Policy Institute: http://www.educationalpolicy.org/pdf/Global2005.pdf

Your survey appears to measure the pervasiveness of mediocrity.

sharonbn

04-26-2005, 09:40 AM

Reffo
If you really liked what I've said, you're welcome to make aliyah .... :D

Mediocrates

04-26-2005, 10:06 AM

Perhaps the deeper question is, 'Does the future matter?' Is there any faith in any people's ability to cast their own destiny, to stake our their own history? Is it a history that matters at all? Does self determination make a difference any more? Or if we settled our squabbling and decided on some creaky parliamentary rules for including diapora Jews in the decision trees of Israel would it lead anywhere they weren't already headed and does where they're headed mean something fortuitous? Is it an expression of destiny or is it a bus schedule to hell? Have we substituted the Jewish narrative for an annual status report? Are there any ideas anywhere that stand for the potential to develop the story of the Jewish people? Or are we arguing about ragged scraps and chunks of process and modernity and safety you could get anywhere, from anyone?

Does the future matter? Does it take the Jewish people anywhere that's well, Jewish? Or are we just stalling for time until we hope the world likes us enough to allow us to obliterate ourselves in the great sea of modern postnational multicultural consumerist secularist genericism. Will the Jewish people be reduced to Hebrew bumperstickers and cultural stereotypes? Either way, including the diaspora or not, will Israel devolve to whatever offends the greatest number of people the least? What's the point in that?

Reffo

04-26-2005, 04:51 PM

Reffo
If you really liked what I've said, you're welcome to make aliyah .... :D Thanks but it's not so simple. I have already described my situation to Steve, Click Here If You Are Interested.

Luanne_Hicks

04-26-2005, 08:17 PM

minusthejihad

04-26-2005, 11:13 PM

sharonbn

04-27-2005, 01:12 AM

Luanne_Hicks

04-27-2005, 10:00 AM

Luanne_Hicks,

I would like to remind you of the rules of this forum, stated here (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=11). The rules explicitly state that missionary activity in the forum is strictly forbidden.
Are ALL you ISRAELIS so insecure? I wish FLOYD was here to TALK some sense into you!

Mil

04-27-2005, 10:19 AM

Posted by Mrs. Hicks:

Christians should and WILL decide ISRAEL'S fate because we KNOW better with GOD on OUR side! ME and my husband FLOYD already CONVERTED one of these LOUD Isreali Jews to CHRISTIANITY and now we are CONVERTING a rabbi! These PEOPLE have never been HAPPIER in their ENTIRE life!

That would mean that I would have to grow my circumcised part back. No, no deal - it would make my wife very unhappy.

Mil

04-27-2005, 10:35 AM

Posted by minus:

Yeah, I don't think squirting holy water on a Jew while blasting "Jesus Christ Superstar" out the window counts as a conversion though.

check this out!!!! Vysotsky's song on anti-semitism translated into English!!!!

Song of an Antisemite
Russian title: Antisemity

Just being a hoodlum appears so trite
I ought to convert to an anti-Semite
This cause might not yet have the law on its side
But millions of zealots support it worldwide

One would get a thrashing if I so decide
But I need to know who is a Semite
What if they are held in the highest regard
What if for the trouble I get myself barred

But my drunkard pal with a wider worldview
Said that a Semite is just a plain Jew
Well, I am in luck, as it would appear
I am reassured there is nothing to fear

I worked up resolve, cause Albert Einstein
Was once a respected icon of mine
The people, forgive me, but I have to ask
Should Abraham Lincoln be also unmasked?

Among them, are many who suffered from Stalin
And highly respected by me Charlie Chaplin
My dear friend Rubin and victims of Nazism
And even the founding father of Marxism

But my drunkard buddy said after a job
The blood of the infants they drink, every drop
And I over drinks in a bar overheard
That they long ago crucified our Lord

Without more blood they simply can't do
They tortured an elephant right in a zoo
Against our people committed high treason
And stole all the crops of the previous season

Along major highways they grabbed all the lots
Built luxury dachas and live there like gods
I'll maim and I'll burn, just to make them pay dues
To save our country, I club dirty Jews

minusthejihad

04-27-2005, 11:03 AM

Luanne_Hicks,

I would like to remind you of the rules of this forum, stated here (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=11). The rules explicitly state that missionary activity in the forum is strictly forbidden.

If any one (including Jews) is dumb enough to be converted to what this Luanne hick believes, I say, "Let Them Go!"

SteveK

04-27-2005, 11:54 AM

Christians should and WILL decide ISRAEL'S fate because we KNOW better with GOD on OUR side! ME and my husband FLOYD already CONVERTED one of these LOUD Isreali Jews to CHRISTIANITY and now we are CONVERTING a rabbi! These PEOPLE have never been HAPPIER in their ENTIRE life!

Hi Luanne_Hicks,

Originally, I'm from St. Paul, Minnesota.

If you read the Prophets in the "Old Testament", then you would know that
God intended to restore control of Israel, and its fate, to the Jewish People. We are still in the process now for the ingathering of the exiles.

The Prophets spoke God's words, which were without any contradiction to the original words of the Covenants of God with our Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai as stated in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses.

I know that there are many rabid theological contortions and distortions among the Christians about the Jews being abandoned by God and in need of your saving us through conversion to your faith. However, you and your husband Floyd have had your mentalities poisoned by your religious denomination. To which Christian denomination are you affiliated?

The Jews are the Chosen People of the Living God of Israel, and our status
has not changed for these 3,500+ years. We will again renew our relationship with our God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as a united sovereign nation at some time in the future. I certainly pray that it will be in my lifetime.

You and Floyd also worship the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
with or without the intermediary of the human being Jesus.

And, just keep in mind, that Christians "in the know" express their own slight
doubt of future events with a little joke: "When the Messiah comes, we will ask him if its his first or second coming".

Mil

04-27-2005, 01:51 PM

I like the "Da Vinci Code" theory better - Jesus was just another loud-mouthed Jew.

By the way I recently watched "Passion" and somehow found it very similar to "Star Gate" with Kurt Russell; no alians though.

Mediocrates

04-27-2005, 02:17 PM

See this is the problem with Katsav's idea of opening the government to the Disaspora. It leaves open the door to all the crackpots and zealots who think they deserve a vote. Can you imagine if all the so called Christian zionists looked around and saw American Jews given a voice in Israeli politics and they turned around and demanded one too?

minusthejihad

04-27-2005, 02:17 PM

Thats why I love "Jesus Christ Superstar", escept for the negative conotations attached to the Jews throughout the movie, but hey, what can you?

"What's the Buzz" has more funk in that one song than the entire Funkadelic "Cosmic Slop" album.

SteveMetch

04-28-2005, 10:42 AM

SteveMetch

04-28-2005, 10:47 AM

Hi Luanne_Hicks,

Originally, I'm from St. Paul, Minnesota.

If you read the Prophets in the "Old Testament", then you would know that
God intended to restore control of Israel, and its fate, to the Jewish People. We are still in the process now for the ingathering of the exiles.

The Prophets spoke God's words, which were without any contradiction to the original words of the Covenants of God with our Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai as stated in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses.

I know that there are many rabid theological contortions and distortions among the Christians about the Jews being abandoned by God and in need of your saving us through conversion to your faith. However, you and your husband Floyd have had your mentalities poisoned by your religious denomination. To which Christian denomination are you affiliated?

The Jews are the Chosen People of the Living God of Israel, and our status
has not changed for these 3,500+ years. We will again renew our relationship with our God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as a united sovereign nation at some time in the future. I certainly pray that it will be in my lifetime.

You and Floyd also worship the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
with or without the intermediary of the human being Jesus.

And, just keep in mind, that Christians "in the know" express their own slight
doubt of future events with a little joke: "When the Messiah comes, we will ask him if its his first or second coming".

Amen